
From paitken@cisco.com  Mon Apr  1 02:49:20 2013
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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 10:49:20 +0100
From: Paul Aitken <paitken@cisco.com>
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To: Al Morton <acmorton@att.com>
References: <20130331210605.GA9662@sweet-brew-5.cisco.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Al,

What's the status of these drafts wrt pm-dir?

 From this email, I can't tell what has been reviewed and what hasn't. 
ie, I can't see what needs to be done.

It'd help if Benoit's email could be cross-referenced with "pm-dir 
review status" to show what's new / current / old from pm-dir's perspective.

Thanks,
P.


On 31/03/13 22:06, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> This is an automatically generated email.
> It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a normative or informative reference.
> It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance metric".
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> ===========================================================
>
> Normative References
> --------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
>      
> Informative References
> ----------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>	
>
> drafts containing performance metric
> ------------------------------------
> draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active	
> draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active	
> draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active	
> draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active	
> draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active	
> draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-05                    In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
> draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       Active	
> draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active	
> draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>	
> draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active	
> draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active	
> draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>	
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02     Active	
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


From acmorton@att.com  Mon Apr  1 05:27:42 2013
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Paul Aitken <paitken@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 08:27:35 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
Thread-Index: Ac4uvjTN5uGyKTy3QFmRDtLMlaWg+AAFBJtg
Message-ID: <F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFBE28441@njfpsrvexg7.research.att.com>
References: <20130331210605.GA9662@sweet-brew-5.cisco.com> <51595820.9030404@cisco.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Hi Paul,

The assignment status for drafts received as of April 15 is here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJv=
VUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0

A couple of drafts have Reviews requested, others have been assigned.
Anyone of us can volunteer to help with reviews.

Those of us in the PM-DIR who attended IETF-86 met on Friday the 15th
and became comfortable using the google docs spread sheet. You should be=20
able to see the status, even if I haven't shared it with you, but you=20
won't be able to edit it yourself. I'd prefer that members do their own
editing rather than send me an email (e.g., death by 1k cut-and-pastes).

The script output was originally intended to help us find drafts to review.
I have an action item to update the script to include some sort
of diff processing on the output from the previous week, but I've just
returned from 3 weeks of meetings (including IETF) so I'm still a bit=20
behind on to-do's.=20

hope this helps,
Al

 =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Aitken [mailto:paitken@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:49 AM
> To: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)
> Cc: Benoit Claise; pm-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
>=20
> Al,
>=20
> What's the status of these drafts wrt pm-dir?
>=20
>  From this email, I can't tell what has been reviewed and what hasn't.
> ie, I can't see what needs to be done.
>=20
> It'd help if Benoit's email could be cross-referenced with "pm-dir
> review status" to show what's new / current / old from pm-dir's
> perspective.
>=20
> Thanks,
> P.
>=20
>=20
> On 31/03/13 22:06, Benoit Claise wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > This is an automatically generated email.
> > It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as =
a
> normative or informative reference.
> > It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance
> metric".
> >
> > Regards, Benoit
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > Normative References
> > --------------------
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> >
> > Informative References
> > ----------------------
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> >
> > drafts containing performance metric
> > ------------------------------------
> > draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active
> > draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active
> > draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active
> > draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active
> > draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active
> > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-05                    In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       Active
> > draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> > draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active
> > draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active
> > draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing -
> ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02     Active
> > _______________________________________________
> > pm-dir mailing list
> > pm-dir@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


From acmorton@att.com  Mon Apr  1 06:19:53 2013
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Paul Aitken <paitken@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 09:19:43 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
Thread-Index: Ac4uvjTN5uGyKTy3QFmRDtLMlaWg+AAFBJtgAAJPgtA=
Message-ID: <F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFBE28459@njfpsrvexg7.research.att.com>
References: <20130331210605.GA9662@sweet-brew-5.cisco.com> <51595820.9030404@cisco.com> <F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFBE28441@njfpsrvexg7.research.att.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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below:=20
s/April/March/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 8:28 AM
> To: Paul Aitken
> Cc: Benoit Claise; pm-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
>=20
> *** Security Advisory: This Message Originated Outside of AT&T ***.
> Reference http://cso.att.com/EmailSecurity/IDSP.html for more information=
.
>=20
> Hi Paul,
>=20
> The assignment status for drafts received as of April 15 is here:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bF=
JvV
> Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0
>=20
> A couple of drafts have Reviews requested, others have been assigned.
> Anyone of us can volunteer to help with reviews.
>=20
> Those of us in the PM-DIR who attended IETF-86 met on Friday the 15th
> and became comfortable using the google docs spread sheet. You should be
> able to see the status, even if I haven't shared it with you, but you
> won't be able to edit it yourself. I'd prefer that members do their own
> editing rather than send me an email (e.g., death by 1k cut-and-pastes).
>=20
> The script output was originally intended to help us find drafts to
> review.
> I have an action item to update the script to include some sort
> of diff processing on the output from the previous week, but I've just
> returned from 3 weeks of meetings (including IETF) so I'm still a bit
> behind on to-do's.
>=20
> hope this helps,
> Al
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Aitken [mailto:paitken@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:49 AM
> > To: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)
> > Cc: Benoit Claise; pm-dir@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
> >
> > Al,
> >
> > What's the status of these drafts wrt pm-dir?
> >
> >  From this email, I can't tell what has been reviewed and what hasn't.
> > ie, I can't see what needs to be done.
> >
> > It'd help if Benoit's email could be cross-referenced with "pm-dir
> > review status" to show what's new / current / old from pm-dir's
> > perspective.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > P.
> >
> >
> > On 31/03/13 22:06, Benoit Claise wrote:
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > This is an automatically generated email.
> > > It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, a=
s
> a
> > normative or informative reference.
> > > It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance
> > metric".
> > >
> > > Regards, Benoit
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > Normative References
> > > --------------------
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > >
> > > Informative References
> > > ----------------------
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> > >
> > > drafts containing performance metric
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active
> > > draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active
> > > draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active
> > > draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active
> > > draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active
> > > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-05                    In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > > draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       Active
> > > draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active
> > > draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> > > draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active
> > > draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active
> > > draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10        In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-09                  Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing =
-
> > ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02     Active
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > pm-dir mailing list
> > > pm-dir@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir

From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Wed Apr  3 05:22:36 2013
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:22:23 +0300
From: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
References: <CBA449D8-AF77-4643-97AB-71B32FDD8F74@ntt-at.com> <51432DCA.60804@cisco.com> <514C21C2.5040808@cisco.com>
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Cc: jo@comnet.tkk.fi, jo@netlab.tkk.fi, "Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, Varun Singh <varun@comnet.tkk.fi>, Shida Schubert <shida@ntt-at.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
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Hi,

out of the three drafts Benoit mentioned below, if we could get the
following draft reviewed sooner rather than later, that would be great:

  draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability

The thing is that it has already passed its IETF LC and I would like to
get the IESG to evaluate it in the near future if possible. However, I
would like to get this review before sending it to the IESG.

Unless I have missed the review somehow...

Thanks,

Gonzalo

On 22/03/2013 11:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear pm-dir,
> 
> Any taker? I sent a couple of requests recently.
>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
>     draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
> 
> Those drafts are in the Waiting for AD Go-Ahead. So it's about time.
> 
> Regards, Benoit
>> Dear pm-dir,
>>
>> Who is able to help with this review?
>> Note: Alan, Brian, Al, Dan, and I have been taking a couple of drafts
>> today during our meeting at the IETF.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> Hi Benoit;
>>>
>>>   This is Shida, a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG.
>>>
>>>   Based on the discussion yesterday, I am requesting
>>> review of the following draft to be reviewed by the
>>> performance metrics directorate.
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>>
>>>   Draft is post-WGLC.
>>>
>>>   Many Thanks
>>>    Shida
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 


From acmorton@att.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:01 2013
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "alan.d.clark@telchemy.com" <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:28:58 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
Thread-Index: Ac4wZrWExuMjXNUbSCiLOp0TopyWhA==
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of	draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Hi Gonzalo, (revising the subject line)

Alan Clark has volunteered to conduct that review of
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability

Alan, can you complete the review in a timely fashion?

Al


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Gonzalo Camarillo
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:22 AM
> To: Benoit Claise
> Cc: jo@comnet.tkk.fi; jo@netlab.tkk.fi; Dan (Dan); Varun Singh; Shida
> Schubert; pm-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock=
-
> rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> out of the three drafts Benoit mentioned below, if we could get the
> following draft reviewed sooner rather than later, that would be great:
>=20
>   draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>=20
> The thing is that it has already passed its IETF LC and I would like to
> get the IESG to evaluate it in the near future if possible. However, I
> would like to get this review before sending it to the IESG.
>=20
> Unless I have missed the review somehow...
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Gonzalo
>=20
> On 22/03/2013 11:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> > Dear pm-dir,
> >
> > Any taker? I sent a couple of requests recently.
> >      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
> >      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
> >     draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
> >
> > Those drafts are in the Waiting for AD Go-Ahead. So it's about time.
> >
> > Regards, Benoit
> >> Dear pm-dir,
> >>
> >> Who is able to help with this review?
> >> Note: Alan, Brian, Al, Dan, and I have been taking a couple of drafts
> >> today during our meeting at the IETF.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit
> >>> Hi Benoit;
> >>>
> >>>   This is Shida, a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG.
> >>>
> >>>   Based on the discussion yesterday, I am requesting
> >>> review of the following draft to be reviewed by the
> >>> performance metrics directorate.
> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
> >>>
> >>>   Draft is post-WGLC.
> >>>
> >>>   Many Thanks
> >>>    Shida
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir

From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Wed Apr  3 05:30:55 2013
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Thanks for the quick answer, Al!

Gonzalo

On 03/04/2013 3:28 PM, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) wrote:
> Hi Gonzalo, (revising the subject line)
> 
> Alan Clark has volunteered to conduct that review of
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
> 
> Alan, can you complete the review in a timely fashion?
> 
> Al
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Gonzalo Camarillo
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:22 AM
>> To: Benoit Claise
>> Cc: jo@comnet.tkk.fi; jo@netlab.tkk.fi; Dan (Dan); Varun Singh; Shida
>> Schubert; pm-dir@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-
>> rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> out of the three drafts Benoit mentioned below, if we could get the
>> following draft reviewed sooner rather than later, that would be great:
>>
>>   draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>>
>> The thing is that it has already passed its IETF LC and I would like to
>> get the IESG to evaluate it in the near future if possible. However, I
>> would like to get this review before sending it to the IESG.
>>
>> Unless I have missed the review somehow...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gonzalo
>>
>> On 22/03/2013 11:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dear pm-dir,
>>>
>>> Any taker? I sent a couple of requests recently.
>>>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
>>>     draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>>>
>>> Those drafts are in the Waiting for AD Go-Ahead. So it's about time.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>> Dear pm-dir,
>>>>
>>>> Who is able to help with this review?
>>>> Note: Alan, Brian, Al, Dan, and I have been taking a couple of drafts
>>>> today during our meeting at the IETF.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>> Hi Benoit;
>>>>>
>>>>>   This is Shida, a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Based on the discussion yesterday, I am requesting
>>>>> review of the following draft to be reviewed by the
>>>>> performance metrics directorate.
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>>>>
>>>>>   Draft is post-WGLC.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Many Thanks
>>>>>    Shida
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pm-dir mailing list
>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 08:35:02 -0400
From: Alan Clark <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>
To: Al Morton <acmorton@att.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Hi Al, Gonzalo

I will expedite the review

Alan


On 4/3/13 8:28 AM, "Al Morton" <acmorton@att.com> wrote:

> Hi Gonzalo, (revising the subject line)
> 
> Alan Clark has volunteered to conduct that review of
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
> 
> Alan, can you complete the review in a timely fashion?
> 
> Al
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Gonzalo Camarillo
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:22 AM
>> To: Benoit Claise
>> Cc: jo@comnet.tkk.fi; jo@netlab.tkk.fi; Dan (Dan); Varun Singh; Shida
>> Schubert; pm-dir@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-
>> rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> out of the three drafts Benoit mentioned below, if we could get the
>> following draft reviewed sooner rather than later, that would be great:
>> 
>>   draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>> 
>> The thing is that it has already passed its IETF LC and I would like to
>> get the IESG to evaluate it in the near future if possible. However, I
>> would like to get this review before sending it to the IESG.
>> 
>> Unless I have missed the review somehow...
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Gonzalo
>> 
>> On 22/03/2013 11:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dear pm-dir,
>>> 
>>> Any taker? I sent a couple of requests recently.
>>>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>>      draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
>>>     draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>>> 
>>> Those drafts are in the Waiting for AD Go-Ahead. So it's about time.
>>> 
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>> Dear pm-dir,
>>>> 
>>>> Who is able to help with this review?
>>>> Note: Alan, Brian, Al, Dan, and I have been taking a couple of drafts
>>>> today during our meeting at the IETF.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>> Hi Benoit;
>>>>> 
>>>>>   This is Shida, a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Based on the discussion yesterday, I am requesting
>>>>> review of the following draft to be reviewed by the
>>>>> performance metrics directorate.
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-05
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Draft is post-WGLC.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Many Thanks
>>>>>    Shida
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> pm-dir mailing list
>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir



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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Alan Clark <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:36:17 -0400
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Great, thanks Alan!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Alan Clark
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:35 AM
> To: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL); Gonzalo Camarillo; Benoit Claise
> Cc: jo@comnet.tkk.fi; jo@netlab.tkk.fi; Dan (Dan); Varun Singh; Shida
> Schubert; pm-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Request for an RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock=
-
> rtcp-xr-decodability
>=20
> Hi Al, Gonzalo
>=20
> I will expedite the review
>=20
> Alan
>=20
>=20


From alan.d.clark@telchemy.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:24 2013
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:10:13 -0400
From: Alan Clark <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>
To: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, Shida Schubert <shida@ntt-at.com>, <rachel.huang@huawei.com>, <bill.wu@huawei.com>, <asaeda@nict.go.jp>, <glenzorn@gmail.com>, Al Morton <acmorton@att.com>
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Subject: [pm-dir] RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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There are quite a few issues with the draft - I can re-review as soon as
these are addressed.

Alan Clark



A. General Comments
=20
This draft does not define new metrics but refers to metrics that are
clearly defined in a normative reference.  The normative reference (ETSI
TR101290) predates RFC6390 however does contain a fairly clear description
of the metrics with explanation of their usage. It is not recommended that
this draft redefines the metrics in RFC6390 template form however there is
considerable scope for improvement in the clarity of definition of how thes=
e
metrics are used.=20
=20
B. Applicability Section
=20
1.4 Applicability
Metrics only measure transport stream quality not content stream quality.
Also the metrics are not defined in this draft but are encodings of the
metrics defined in ETSI TS 101290.
=20
Suggest=20
=20
=B3This block type allows a counts of MPEG Transport Stream quality metrics
that are measured in accordance with ETSI TR 101290 [ETSI] to be reported b=
y
an endpoint.  These metrics are useful for identifying bitstream
packetization and transport stream encoding problems that may affect the
user=B9s perception of a video service delivered over RTP.=B2
=20
C. Metrics Definitions
=20
C.1 General
=20
For clarity the draft should preface the metrics definitions with a general
explanation of how these metrics relate to ETSI TR101290. TR101290 generall=
y
defines error events and this draft contains counts of those metrics.
=20
If there are any =B3edge=B2 cases where a problem in one measurement interval
would be reflected in the count in the next measurement interval then this
should be articulated in the general description and also in the specific
metric.  For example, a sync byte error is defined as multiple consecutive
errored sync bytes and if this was reported in an interval it may have
occurred at the end of the preceding interval or at some time during the
present interval - hence the description should state that the count may
reflect a problem in the current or previous interval. This would also be
the case for PCR errors and even continuity count errors.
=20
C.2  Sequence numbers
=20
begin_seq and end_seq
=20
These definitions simply say =B3As defined in=8A=B2 which requires the reader to
refer to another document. It is good practice to at least mention what the
definition refers to and then to include a reference that contains the
normative definition.
=20
So=8A..
=20
=B3begin_seq: 16 bits

The RTP sequence number corresponding to the start of the measurement
period, as defined in Section 4.1 of RFC 3611=B2
=20
C.3 Metrics definitions
The metrics definitions should contain a firmer statement of what is being
measured and, if the normative definition is in another standard, then
clearly state =B3as defined in Section X.Y of NNNNN=B2. This applies to all the
metrics definitions and the example below can be used as a template for
=20
For example
=20
Existing language =8A..
=20
TS_sync_loss_count: 32 bits
=20
Number of TS_sync_loss errors in the above sequence number interval.  It is
calculated based on the occurrence of errors for "TS_sync_loss"parameter
defined in the section 5.2.1 of [ETSI] (Also see section 5.5.1 of [ETSI]).
=20
This is very vague language and it is unclear why the =B3Also see=B2 reference
is there.  A better approach is:
=20
Replacement language (use this format for each of the metrics)
=20
TS_sync_loss_count: 32 bits
=20
A count of the number of TS_sync_loss errors that occurred in the above
sequence number interval.  A TS_sync_loss error occurs when there are two o=
r
more consecutive incorrect sync bytes within the MPEG TS stream, as defined
in section 5.2.1 of [ETSI]. This parameter may be used as part of a Service
Availability calculation, as defined in section 5.5.1 of [ETSI].
=20
C.4 Service Availability
=20
Following on from the previous comment,  section 5.5.1 of TR101290 describe=
s
a service availability error as a combination of TS_sync_loss, PAT_error an=
d
PMT_error whereas draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10 does not
contain the PAT and PMT error metrics.  The resolution for this would eithe=
r
be to remove the reference to 5.5.1 or to add the metrics required to
calculate the service availability.
=20
It is recommended that PAT_error , PAT_error_2,  PMT_error and PMT_error_2
be included as metrics as these =B3are=B2 generally present in MPEG Transport
streams and errors within these can prevent correct decoding of the stream.
=20
C.5 PCR_error_count
=20
PCR_error_count is defined twice - the second of these should be
PCR_accuracy_error_count
=20
=20



From bclaise@cisco.com  Sun Apr  7 14:10:21 2013
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 23:06:06 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
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Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Dear all,

This is an automatically generated email.  
It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a normative or informative reference.
It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance metric".

Regards, Benoit

===========================================================

Normative References
--------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
    
Informative References
----------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

drafts containing performance metric
------------------------------------
draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active	
draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active	
draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-05                    In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation::Point Raised - writeup needed>	
draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Publication Requested>	
draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active	
draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>	
draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active	
draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-10   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Hi PMDIR,

As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390 review=
 of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt. This docum=
ent is in WGLC until 4/22.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan




From acmorton@att.com  Mon Apr  8 08:02:21 2013
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:02:18 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Can a Directorate member *volunteer* to perform the review by Friday, April=
 12,
with deadline for completion as Dan noted (the 22nd), please?

The current review assignments are here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJv=
VUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0

Al
pm-dir-admin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:14 AM
> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
> Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
>=20
>=20
> Hi PMDIR,
>=20
> As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
> review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
> This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
>=20
> Thanks and Regards,
>=20
> Dan
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir

From vinayakh@gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 18:54:35 2013
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From: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>
To: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
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Cc: "shida@ntt-at.com" <shida@ntt-at.com>, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, "bclaise@cisco.com" <bclaise@cisco.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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--047d7b2e12abaf72ac04d9e3d565
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 Al / Dan,

I can do the review by the 22nd and send any comments to the list.

Regards
Vinayak


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:32 PM, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)
<acmorton@att.com>wrote:

> Can a Directorate member *volunteer* to perform the review by Friday,
> April 12,
> with deadline for completion as Dan noted (the 22nd), please?
>
> The current review assignments are here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0
>
> Al
> pm-dir-admin
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:14 AM
> > To: pm-dir@ietf.org
> > Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
> > Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
> > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
> >
> >
> > Hi PMDIR,
> >
> > As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
> > review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
> > This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
> >
> > Thanks and Regards,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pm-dir mailing list
> > pm-dir@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>

--047d7b2e12abaf72ac04d9e3d565
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"> Al / Dan,<br><br>I can do the review by the 22nd and send=
 any comments to the list.<br><br>Regards<br>Vinayak</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:32 PM=
, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acmorto=
n@att.com" target=3D"_blank">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Can a Directorate member *volunteer* to perf=
orm the review by Friday, April 12,<br>
with deadline for completion as Dan noted (the 22nd), please?<br>
<br>
The current review assignments are here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqM=
nB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.c=
om/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=
=3D0</a><br>

<br>
Al<br>
pm-dir-admin<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt; Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:14 AM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:shida@ntt-at.com">shida@ntt-at.com</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>; Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt; Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10=
.txt</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi PMDIR,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390<b=
r>
&gt; review of <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr=
-jb-10.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtc=
p-xr-jb-10.txt</a>.<br>
&gt; This document is in WGLC until 4/22.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks and Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Dan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; pm-dir mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_bl=
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_______________________________________________<br>
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From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Apr 10 06:45:51 2013
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Subject: [pm-dir] Fwd: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Dear perf metric reviewers,

I filed a DISCUSS on the draft draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss.
The reason is that the RFC6390 template is not used.
See my previous message on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11 
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat/>

    I spent quite some time with Qin and Dan on the RFC 6390 template
    section for this document. See the result is in the appendix A.
    We, as the perf metric directorate, should start to shoot for
    consistency between all drafts now.

    Note: for this draft, we compromised on having the RFC 6390 template
    in the appendix, as opposed to the body of the document. The reason
    is that there is no clear boundary for this set of perf metrics:
    these are new metrics, but defined based on existing ones.
    For any new metric definition, this should be in the draft body.


Regards, Benoit


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Benoit Claise's Discuss on 
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Date: 	Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:30:58 -0700
From: 	Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: 	The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: 	xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org, 
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss@tools.ietf.org



Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Qin,

Me again ;-)
During the last IETF, we work together (with Dan Romascanu) on using the
RFC6390 template in
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11#appendix-A
You should apply the same rule with this draft.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

  RTCP XR views a call as being divided into bursts, which are periods
    during which the loss rate is high enough to cause noticeable call
    quality degradation (generally over 5 percent loss rate), and gaps,
    which are periods during which lost packets are infrequent and hence
    call quality is generally acceptable.

I always heard of max 1 percent of packet loss to avoid audible errors







--------------020708070100030905060808
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Dear perf metric reviewers,<br>
    <br>
    I filed a DISCUSS on the draftÂ 
    draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss.<br>
    The reason is that the RFC6390 template is not used.<br>
    See my previous message on <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat/">draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11</a><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote> I spent quite some time with Qin and Dan on the RFC
      6390 template section for this document. See the result is in the
      appendix A.<br>
      We, as the perf metric directorate, should start to shoot for
      consistency between all drafts now.<br>
      <br>
      Note: for this draft, we compromised on having the RFC 6390
      template in the appendix, as opposed to the body of the document.
      The reason is that there is no clear boundary for this set of perf
      metrics: these are new metrics, but defined based on existing
      ones.<br>
      For any new metric definition, this should be in the draft body.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Original Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
        cellspacing="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>Benoit Claise's Discuss on
              draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09: (with
              DISCUSS and COMMENT)</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:30:58 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td>Benoit Claise <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>The IESG <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:iesg@ietf.org">&lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org">xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss@tools.ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Qin,

Me again ;-)
During the last IETF, we work together (with Dan Romascanu) on using the
RFC6390 template in 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11#appendix-A">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11#appendix-A</a>
You should apply the same rule with this draft.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

 RTCP XR views a call as being divided into bursts, which are periods
   during which the loss rate is high enough to cause noticeable call
   quality degradation (generally over 5 percent loss rate), and gaps,
   which are periods during which lost packets are infrequent and hence
   call quality is generally acceptable.

I always heard of max 1 percent of packet loss to avoid audible errors




</pre>
      <br>
    </div>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020708070100030905060808--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Apr 10 06:58:18 2013
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Subject: [pm-dir] Performance Metrics Directorate is getting popular
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Dear directorate,

>From 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0 
(which I updated a little right now), we would still need 2 volunteers for
     - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05
     - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11

Regards, Benoit

From cpignata@cisco.com  Wed Apr 10 07:21:20 2013
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
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Benoit,

Are reviews supposed to be also sent to pm-dir@ietf.org? I do not believe
I have seen the ones that show as "Sent".

Thanks,

-- Carlos.

On 4/10/13 9:56 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>Dear directorate,
>
>From=20
>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJ=
vV
>Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0
>(which I updated a little right now), we would still need 2 volunteers for
>     - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05
>     - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
>
>Regards, Benoit
>_______________________________________________
>pm-dir mailing list
>pm-dir@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>


From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Apr 10 08:46:41 2013
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Carlos,

Good question: where to send the reviews?
I propose that we apply the rule similar the one in the OPS directorate 
and MIB doctors.
So

    Send your review to the performance metrics directorate mailing list
    (pm-dir@ietf.org <mailto:ops-dir@ietf.org>) and to the authors, WG
    chairs, and respective AD.
    The way to reach the authors, WG chairs, and respective AD is to
    send an email to <draft-name>.all@tools.ietf.org
    <mailto:.all@tools.ietf.org>

We could add this to our page 
http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html

Regards, Benoit

> Benoit,
>
> Are reviews supposed to be also sent to pm-dir@ietf.org? I do not believe
> I have seen the ones that show as "Sent".
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Carlos.
>
> On 4/10/13 9:56 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear directorate,
>>
> >From
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvV
>> Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0
>> (which I updated a little right now), we would still need 2 volunteers for
>>      - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05
>>      - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>> _______________________________________________
>> pm-dir mailing list
>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>>
>
>


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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Carlos,<br>
      <br>
      Good question: where to send the reviews?<br>
      I propose that we apply the rule similar the one in the OPS
      directorate and MIB doctors. <br>
      So<br>
      <blockquote><span
style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Send

          your review to the performance metrics directorate mailing
          list (<a href="mailto:ops-dir@ietf.org"><span
              style="color:windowtext">pm-dir@ietf.org</span></a>) and
          to the authors, WG chairs, and respective AD. <br>
          The way to reach the authors, WG chairs, and respective AD is
          to send an email to &lt;draft-name&gt;<a
            href="mailto:.all@tools.ietf.org"><span
              style="color:windowtext">.all@tools.ietf.org</span></a></span></blockquote>
      <span
style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"></span>We
      could add this to our page
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html</a><br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:95067C434CE250468B77282634C96ED322A5016F@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Benoit,

Are reviews supposed to be also sent to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a>? I do not believe
I have seen the ones that show as "Sent".

Thanks,

-- Carlos.

On 4/10/13 9:56 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Dear directorate,

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">&gt;From 
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvV">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvV</a>
Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0
(which I updated a little right now), we would still need 2 volunteers for
    - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05
    - draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-11

Regards, Benoit
_______________________________________________
pm-dir mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------030508000206080708060605--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Apr 10 06:55:57 2013
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:52:51 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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Cc: rachel.huang@huawei.com, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, "Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, asaeda@nict.go.jp, Alan Clark <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>, glenzorn@gmail.com, Shida Schubert <shida@ntt-at.com>, pm-dir@ietf.org, Al Morton <acmorton@att.com>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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Hi Qin,

And don't forget the RFC 6390 template usage.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi, Alan:
> Thank for your valuable comments.
> We have updated the draft to incorporate your comments in the new version (-v11).
> The diff is:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11
> Please also see my reply below.
>
> Regards!
> -Qin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Clark" <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>
> To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>; <pm-dir@ietf.org>; "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com>; "Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>; "Shida Schubert" <shida@ntt-at.com>; <rachel.huang@huawei.com>; <bill.wu@huawei.com>; <asaeda@nict.go.jp>; <glenzorn@gmail.com>; "Al Morton" <acmorton@att.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:10 AM
> Subject: RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
>
>
> There are quite a few issues with the draft - I can re-review as soon as
> these are addressed.
>
> Alan Clark
>
>
>
> A. General Comments
>   
> This draft does not define new metrics but refers to metrics that are
> clearly defined in a normative reference.  The normative reference (ETSI
> TR101290) predates RFC6390 however does contain a fairly clear description
> of the metrics with explanation of their usage. It is not recommended that
> this draft redefines the metrics in RFC6390 template form
>
> [Qin]: Exactly.
>
> however there is
> considerable scope for improvement in the clarity of definition of how these
> metrics are used.
>
> [Qin]: Agree.
>   
> B. Applicability Section
>   
> 1.4 Applicability
> Metrics only measure transport stream quality not content stream quality.
> Also the metrics are not defined in this draft but are encodings of the
> metrics defined in ETSI TS 101290.
>   
> Suggest
>   
> ³This block type allows a counts of MPEG Transport Stream quality metrics
> that are measured in accordance with ETSI TR 101290 [ETSI] to be reported by
> an endpoint.  These metrics are useful for identifying bitstream
> packetization and transport stream encoding problems that may affect the
> user¹s perception of a video service delivered over RTP.²
>
> [Qin]: Okay. Your proposed text have been incorporated in (-v11).
>   
> C. Metrics Definitions
>   
> C.1 General
>   
> For clarity the draft should preface the metrics definitions with a general
> explanation of how these metrics relate to ETSI TR101290. TR101290 generally
> defines error events and this draft contains counts of those metrics.
>
>   
> If there are any ³edge² cases where a problem in one measurement interval
> would be reflected in the count in the next measurement interval then this
> should be articulated in the general description and also in the specific
> metric.  For example, a sync byte error is defined as multiple consecutive
> errored sync bytes and if this was reported in an interval it may have
> occurred at the end of the preceding interval or at some time during the
> present interval - hence the description should state that the count may
> reflect a problem in the current or previous interval. This would also be
> the case for PCR errors and even continuity count errors.
>
> [Qin]: Okay, I have added some text in the 2nd paragraph of section 3
> and incorporated your suggested text in (v-11).
>   
> C.2  Sequence numbers
>   
> begin_seq and end_seq
>   
> These definitions simply say ³As defined inS² which requires the reader to
> refer to another document. It is good practice to at least mention what the
> definition refers to and then to include a reference that contains the
> normative definition.
>   
> SoS..
>   
> ³begin_seq: 16 bits
>
> The RTP sequence number corresponding to the start of the measurement
> period, as defined in Section 4.1 of RFC 3611²
>
> [Qin]: Fixed in (-v11).
>   
> C.3 Metrics definitions
> The metrics definitions should contain a firmer statement of what is being
> measured and, if the normative definition is in another standard, then
> clearly state ³as defined in Section X.Y of NNNNN². This applies to all the
> metrics definitions and the example below can be used as a template for
>   
> For example
>   
> Existing language S..
>   
> TS_sync_loss_count: 32 bits
>   
> Number of TS_sync_loss errors in the above sequence number interval.  It is
> calculated based on the occurrence of errors for "TS_sync_loss"parameter
> defined in the section 5.2.1 of [ETSI] (Also see section 5.5.1 of [ETSI]).
>   
> This is very vague language and it is unclear why the ³Also see² reference
> is there.  A better approach is:
>   
> Replacement language (use this format for each of the metrics)
>   
> TS_sync_loss_count: 32 bits
>   
> A count of the number of TS_sync_loss errors that occurred in the above
> sequence number interval.  A TS_sync_loss error occurs when there are two or
> more consecutive incorrect sync bytes within the MPEG TS stream, as defined
> in section 5.2.1 of [ETSI]. This parameter may be used as part of a Service
> Availability calculation, as defined in section 5.5.1 of [ETSI].
>
> [Qin]: Fixed in (-v11).
>   
> C.4 Service Availability
>   
> Following on from the previous comment,  section 5.5.1 of TR101290 describes
> a service availability error as a combination of TS_sync_loss, PAT_error and
> PMT_error whereas draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-10 does not
> contain the PAT and PMT error metrics.  The resolution for this would either
> be to remove the reference to 5.5.1 or to add the metrics required to
> calculate the service availability.
>   
> [Qin]: Agree. I prefer to remove the reference to 5.5.1 since there was consensus in the past WGLC to this draft
> that having a second report block later to cover the other parameters and get inline with concept of RFC6792
> and letting this draft focus on PSI indpendent parameter reporting.
> See details for the WGLC discussion in the following link:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg01032.html
>
> It is recommended that PAT_error , PAT_error_2,  PMT_error and PMT_error_2
> be included as metrics as these ³are² generally present in MPEG Transport
> streams and errors within these can prevent correct decoding of the stream.
>   
> C.5 PCR_error_count
>   
> PCR_error_count is defined twice - the second of these should be
> PCR_accuracy_error_count
>   
>   [Qin]: Good catch and have fixed in (-v11).
>
>
>


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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: RFC6390 review of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability
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From: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>
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PM-dir'ers

I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally c=
onvinced had a document
that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational networks as if=
 they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.

I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draft=
 mentioned in the subject line,
which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, without ad=
dressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.

Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the original 2544,
but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the network at physica=
l line speed for a long time
instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover =
throughput with minimum impact on the network
(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).

Needless to say it doesn't consider the impact of such blasting without TCP=
-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,
nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.

I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to discuss.

Y(J)S



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">PM-dir&#8217;ers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, sin=
ce we finally convinced had a document<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational=
 networks as if they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I disco=
vered the draft mentioned in the subject line,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational netwo=
rks, without addressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the =
original 2544,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the net=
work at physical line speed for a long time
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms=
 that discover throughput with minimum impact on the network<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Needless to say it doesn&#8217;t consider the impact of such=
 blasting without TCP-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to dis=
cuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ver=
dana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:red"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:48:50 -0400
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Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history here)

Glad to hear you were relieved when http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815
was approved and published. So were all the authors and Ron Bonica,
who saw this through a very difficult IESG review. Stewart Bryant
held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end Ron brokered a deal where
Ron and Stewart would write the draft you found, and Stewart would
clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart's nit-picking technical
commentary was motivated only by ego and narrow-interest (pseudo-wires) IMO=
,
precipitating his desire to block the draft or cripple its message
though he was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Before we were done,
MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted the message that Stewart could not.

Part of the deal Ron brokered was that some OPS wg would pick-up and
work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't seem likely
to happen.

IETF processes will send this draft to expiration in a couple of weeks,
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00
and I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought back to life
and reviewed in any working group, then we should assign a reviewer
or two and let the comments fall where they may.  Preferably, no progress
will take place while Stewart is still on the IESG.

Al

From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Yaakov Stein
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

PM-dir'ers

I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally c=
onvinced had a document
that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational networks as if=
 they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.

I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draft=
 mentioned in the subject line,
which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, without ad=
dressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.

Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the original 2544,
but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the network at physica=
l line speed for a long time
instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover =
throughput with minimum impact on the network
(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).

Needless to say it doesn't consider the impact of such blasting without TCP=
-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,
nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.

I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to discuss.

Y(J)S



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<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'=
>Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history here)<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windo=
wtext'>Glad to hear you were relieved when <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc6815">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew";color:windowtext'>was approved and published. So were all the authors a=
nd Ron Bonica,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>who saw this thro=
ugh a very difficult IESG review. Stewart Bryant<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:windowtext'>held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end Ron brokered a d=
eal where<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Ron and Stewart would =
write the draft you found, and Stewart would<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:windowtext'>clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart's nit-picking=
 technical<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>commentary was motiva=
ted only by ego and narrow-interest (pseudo-wires) IMO, &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Courier New";color:windowtext'>precipitating his desire to block the draft =
or cripple its message<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>though he=
 was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Before we were done,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted the message t=
hat Stewart could not.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Part of the deal Ron brokered was =
that some OPS wg would pick-up and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtex=
t'>work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't seem likely<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>to happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New=
";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>IETF =
processes will send this draft to expiration in a couple of weeks,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-25=
44like-production-tests-00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>a=
nd I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought back to life<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>and reviewed in any working group, the=
n we should assign a reviewer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>or=
 two and let the comments fall where they may.&nbsp; Preferably, no progres=
s <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>will take place while Stewart=
 is still on the IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Al<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:=
none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DM=
soNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mai=
lto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Yaakov Stein<br><b>Sent:</=
b> Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> pm-dir@ietf.org<br><b>Su=
bject:</b> [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>PM-dir&#8217;ers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I was very relieved =
when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally convinced had a docum=
ent<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>that clearly stated th=
at measuring throughput of operational networks as if they were devices on =
a workbench was a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I must have been =
sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draft mentioned in the=
 subject line, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>which is a=
ttempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, without addressing t=
he main reason that it is such a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No=
t only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the original 2544,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>but also it rehashes the RFC=
 2544 method of blasting the network at physical line speed for a long time=
 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>instead of proposing the=
 use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover throughput with minimum =
impact on the network<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(e.g=
., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Needless to say =
it doesn&#8217;t consider the impact of such blasting without TCP-friendlin=
ess on neighboring TCP flows,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'>I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to discu=
ss.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";co=
lor:red'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFF1E264Dnjfpsrvexg7re_--

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Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:06:05 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
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Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Dear all,

This is an automatically generated email.  
It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a normative or informative reference.
It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance metric".

Regards, Benoit

===========================================================

Normative References
--------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
    
Informative References
----------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup needed>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

drafts containing performance metric
------------------------------------
draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active	
draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active	
draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <In Last Call>	
draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active	
draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>	
draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active	
draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup needed>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

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Cc: "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, manet@ietf.org
Subject: [pm-dir] performance metrics directorate review of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06
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Dear all,

I reviewed http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06, 
from a performance metric directorate point of view.

This draft doesn't contain any reference to RFC6390, but contains 
"performance metric". Hence this review was triggered. For details about 
the directorate, see 
http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html

Definition of Managed Objects for the  Optimized Link State Routing
Protocol version 2

Abstract

    This document defines the Management Information Base (MIB) module
    for configuring and managing the Optimized Link State Routing
    protocol version 2 (OLSRv2).  The OLSRv2-MIB module is structured
    into state information,performance metrics, and notifications.  This
    additional state and performance information is useful to
    troubleshoot problems and performance issues of the routing protocol.
    Different levels of compliance allow implementers to use smaller
    subsets of all defined objects, allowing for this MIB module to be
    deployed on more constrained routers.


Basically, all performance metrics come from this table:

    o  olsrv2InterfacePerfTable - records performance counters for each
       active OLSRv2 interface on this device. selected path to each
       destination for which any such path is known.  This table has
       AUGMENTS { nhdpInterfacePerfEntry } and as such it is indexed via
       nhdpIfIndex from the NHDP-MIB.

NHDP-MIB is RFC 6779:
    NhdpInterfacePerfEntry ::=
       SEQUENCE {
          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmits
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvd
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
             Counter64,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
             Counter64,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageTriggeredXmits
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessagePeriodicXmits
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSymmetricNeighborCount
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedHeardNeighborCount
             Counter32,
          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedLostNeighborCount
             Counter32
       }


This draft contains similar objects in olsrv2InterfacePerfTable :

     Olsrv2InterfacePerfEntry ::=
        SEQUENCE {
           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmits
              Counter32,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvd
              Counter32,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
              Counter64,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
              Counter64,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageTriggeredXmits
              Counter32,
           olsrv2IfTcMessagePeriodicXmits
              Counter32,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageForwardedXmits
              Counter32,
           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedMPRSelectorCount
              Counter32
        }


Personally, I don't believe that those objects should be subject to the 
RFC 6390 template definition. (Performance Metric Definition Template, 
section 5.4.4, RFC 6390).
First reason: NhdpInterfacePerfEntry, from NHDP-MIB [RFC 6779] was not 
subject to it
Second reason: these objects are not really performance metrics, but 
mainly basic monitoring objects.

Since RFC 6779 uses the term performance information (in the abstract), 
I would propose that draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib also uses this term, 
and not the "performance metric". That would avoid some confusion. 
However, keeping the olsrv2InterfacePerfTable OID name is perfectly 
fine, for consistency reason with RFC 6779.

Regards, Benoit



--------------060009030700000604090409
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    I reviewed
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06</a>, from a
    performance metric directorate point of view.<br>
    <br>
    This draft doesn't contain any reference to RFC6390, but contains
    "performance metric". Hence this review was triggered. For details
    about the directorate, see
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html</a><br>
    &nbsp;<br>
    <pre>Definition of Managed Objects for the  Optimized Link State Routing 
Protocol version 2 
</pre>
    <pre>Abstract

   This document defines the Management Information Base (MIB) module
   for configuring and managing the Optimized Link State Routing
   protocol version 2 (OLSRv2).  The OLSRv2-MIB module is structured
   into state information, <font color="#ff0000">performance metrics</font>, and notifications.  This
   additional state and performance information is useful to
   troubleshoot problems and performance issues of the routing protocol.
   Different levels of compliance allow implementers to use smaller
   subsets of all defined objects, allowing for this MIB module to be
   deployed on more constrained routers.</pre>
    <br>
    Basically, all performance metrics come from this table:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   o  olsrv2InterfacePerfTable - records performance counters for each
      active OLSRv2 interface on this device. selected path to each
      destination for which any such path is known.  This table has
      AUGMENTS { nhdpInterfacePerfEntry } and as such it is indexed via
      nhdpIfIndex from the NHDP-MIB.

NHDP-MIB is RFC 6779:
   NhdpInterfacePerfEntry ::=
      SEQUENCE {
         nhdpIfHelloMessageXmits
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvd
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
            Counter64,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
            Counter64,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageTriggeredXmits
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessagePeriodicXmits
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSymmetricNeighborCount
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedHeardNeighborCount
            Counter32,
         nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedLostNeighborCount
            Counter32
      }
</pre>
    <br>
    This draft contains similar objects in olsrv2InterfacePerfTable :<br>
    <pre class="newpage">    Olsrv2InterfacePerfEntry ::=
       SEQUENCE {
          olsrv2IfTcMessageXmits
             Counter32,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvd
             Counter32,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
             Counter64,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
             Counter64,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageTriggeredXmits
             Counter32,
          olsrv2IfTcMessagePeriodicXmits
             Counter32,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageForwardedXmits
             Counter32,
          olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedMPRSelectorCount
             Counter32
       }</pre>
    <br>
    Personally, I don't believe that those objects should be subject to
    the RFC 6390 template definition. (Performance Metric Definition
    Template, section 5.4.4, RFC 6390).<br>
    First reason: NhdpInterfacePerfEntry, from NHDP-MIB [RFC 6779] was
    not subject to it<br>
    Second reason: these objects are not really performance metrics, but
    mainly basic monitoring objects. <br>
    <br>
    Since RFC 6779 uses the term performance information (in the
    abstract), I would propose that draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib also
    uses this term, and not the "performance metric". That would avoid
    some confusion. However, keeping the olsrv2InterfacePerfTable OID
    name is perfectly fine, for consistency reason with RFC 6779.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="newpage">
</pre>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From ulrich@herberg.name  Mon Apr 15 13:10:54 2013
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] [manet] performance metrics directorate review of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06
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Benoit,

thank you very much for this review. I agree that using the term
"performance information" instead of "performance metrics" is a good
idea. We will make the change.

Best regards
Ulrich

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I reviewed http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06, from a
> performance metric directorate point of view.
>
> This draft doesn't contain any reference to RFC6390, but contains
> "performance metric". Hence this review was triggered. For details about the
> directorate, see
> http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html
>
>
> Definition of Managed Objects for the  Optimized Link State Routing
> Protocol version 2
>
> Abstract
>
>    This document defines the Management Information Base (MIB) module
>    for configuring and managing the Optimized Link State Routing
>    protocol version 2 (OLSRv2).  The OLSRv2-MIB module is structured
>    into state information, performance metrics, and notifications.  This
>    additional state and performance information is useful to
>    troubleshoot problems and performance issues of the routing protocol.
>    Different levels of compliance allow implementers to use smaller
>    subsets of all defined objects, allowing for this MIB module to be
>    deployed on more constrained routers.
>
>
> Basically, all performance metrics come from this table:
>
>    o  olsrv2InterfacePerfTable - records performance counters for each
>       active OLSRv2 interface on this device. selected path to each
>       destination for which any such path is known.  This table has
>       AUGMENTS { nhdpInterfacePerfEntry } and as such it is indexed via
>       nhdpIfIndex from the NHDP-MIB.
>
> NHDP-MIB is RFC 6779:
>    NhdpInterfacePerfEntry ::=
>       SEQUENCE {
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmits
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvd
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
>             Counter64,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
>             Counter64,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageTriggeredXmits
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessagePeriodicXmits
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedSymmetricNeighborCount
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedHeardNeighborCount
>             Counter32,
>          nhdpIfHelloMessageXmitAccumulatedLostNeighborCount
>             Counter32
>       }
>
>
> This draft contains similar objects in olsrv2InterfacePerfTable :
>
>     Olsrv2InterfacePerfEntry ::=
>        SEQUENCE {
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmits
>              Counter32,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvd
>              Counter32,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedSize
>              Counter64,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageRecvdAccumulatedSize
>              Counter64,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageTriggeredXmits
>              Counter32,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessagePeriodicXmits
>              Counter32,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageForwardedXmits
>              Counter32,
>           olsrv2IfTcMessageXmitAccumulatedMPRSelectorCount
>              Counter32
>        }
>
>
> Personally, I don't believe that those objects should be subject to the RFC
> 6390 template definition. (Performance Metric Definition Template, section
> 5.4.4, RFC 6390).
> First reason: NhdpInterfacePerfEntry, from NHDP-MIB [RFC 6779] was not
> subject to it
> Second reason: these objects are not really performance metrics, but mainly
> basic monitoring objects.
>
> Since RFC 6779 uses the term performance information (in the abstract), I
> would propose that draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib also uses this term, and not
> the "performance metric". That would avoid some confusion. However, keeping
> the olsrv2InterfacePerfTable OID name is perfectly fine, for consistency
> reason with RFC 6779.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

From yaakov_s@rad.com  Thu Apr 18 08:40:29 2013
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From: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>
To: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
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--_000_07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC904CFFBEAEXRAD5adradcoil_
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Al,

As one of the fathers of pseudowires and a long time personal friend of Ste=
wart, I can almost understand his desires.
This has nothing to do with pseudowires (which have no QoS features at all)=
, but rather of MPLS-TE.
Had they said something about such testing only being carried out when ther=
e is hard policing of the throughput,
then I could have understood. But since this is a minority case, I believe =
that this draft needs to be considered harmful.

Anyway, I am willing to play along as you suggest.
If it is re-opened, I volunteer to perform a review...

Y(J)S


From: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:acmorton@att.com]
Sent: 11 April, 2013 19:49
To: Yaakov Stein; pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history here)

Glad to hear you were relieved when http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815
was approved and published. So were all the authors and Ron Bonica,
who saw this through a very difficult IESG review. Stewart Bryant
held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end Ron brokered a deal where
Ron and Stewart would write the draft you found, and Stewart would
clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart's nit-picking technical
commentary was motivated only by ego and narrow-interest (pseudo-wires) IMO=
,
precipitating his desire to block the draft or cripple its message
though he was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Before we were done,
MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted the message that Stewart could not.

Part of the deal Ron brokered was that some OPS wg would pick-up and
work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't seem likely
to happen.

IETF processes will send this draft to expiration in a couple of weeks,
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00
and I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought back to life
and reviewed in any working group, then we should assign a reviewer
or two and let the comments fall where they may.  Preferably, no progress
will take place while Stewart is still on the IESG.

Al

From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Yaakov Stein
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

PM-dir'ers

I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally c=
onvinced had a document
that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational networks as if=
 they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.

I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draft=
 mentioned in the subject line,
which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, without ad=
dressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.

Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the original 2544,
but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the network at physica=
l line speed for a long time
instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover =
throughput with minimum impact on the network
(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).

Needless to say it doesn't consider the impact of such blasting without TCP=
-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,
nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.

I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to discuss.

Y(J)S



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Al,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">As one of the fathers of pseudowires and a long time persona=
l friend of Stewart, I can almost understand his desires.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">This has nothing to do with pseudowires (which have no QoS f=
eatures at all), but rather of MPLS-TE.</span><span lang=3D"HE" dir=3D"RTL"=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Had they said something about such testing only being carrie=
d out when there is hard policing of the throughput,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">then I could have understood. But since this is a minority c=
ase, I believe that this draft needs to be considered harmful.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Anyway, I am willing to play along as you suggest.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">If it is re-opened, I volunteer to perform a review&#8230;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> MORTON JR., AL=
FRED C (AL) [mailto:acmorton@att.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 April, 2013 19:49<br>
<b>To:</b> Yaakov Stein; pm-dir@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-tests<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history =
here)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">Glad to hear you were relieved when
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815">http://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
fc6815</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">was approved and published. So were all the authors and R=
on Bonica,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">who saw this through a very difficult IESG review. Stewar=
t Bryant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end Ron brokered a =
deal where<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">Ron and Stewart would write the draft you found, and Stew=
art would<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart's nit-pic=
king technical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">commentary was motivated only by ego and narrow-interest =
(pseudo-wires) IMO, &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">precipitating his desire to block the draft or cripple it=
s message<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">though he was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Bef=
ore we were done,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted the message that Stewart coul=
d not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">Part of the deal Ron brokered was that some OPS wg would =
pick-up and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't=
 seem likely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">to happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">IETF processes will send this draft to expiration in a co=
uple of weeks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-p=
roduction-tests-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-production=
-tests-00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">and I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought =
back to life<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">and reviewed in any working group, then we should assign =
a reviewer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">or two and let the comments fall where they may.&nbsp; Pr=
eferably, no progress
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">will take place while Stewart is still on the IESG.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext">Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;
color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> pm-dir-bounces=
@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Yaakov Stein<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> pm-dir@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">PM-dir&#8217;ers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, sin=
ce we finally convinced had a document<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational=
 networks as if they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I disco=
vered the draft mentioned in the subject line,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational netwo=
rks, without addressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the =
original 2544,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the net=
work at physical line speed for a long time
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms=
 that discover throughput with minimum impact on the network<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Needless to say it doesn&#8217;t consider the impact of such=
 blasting without TCP-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to dis=
cuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ver=
dana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:red"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:26:28 -0400
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Thanks for your consideration and agreement, Yaakov.
Al

From: Yaakov Stein [mailto:yaakov_s@rad.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:40 AM
To: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL); pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

Al,

As one of the fathers of pseudowires and a long time personal friend of Ste=
wart, I can almost understand his desires.
This has nothing to do with pseudowires (which have no QoS features at all)=
, but rather of MPLS-TE.
Had they said something about such testing only being carried out when ther=
e is hard policing of the throughput,
then I could have understood. But since this is a minority case, I believe =
that this draft needs to be considered harmful.

Anyway, I am willing to play along as you suggest.
If it is re-opened, I volunteer to perform a review...

Y(J)S


From: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:acmorton@att.com]
Sent: 11 April, 2013 19:49
To: Yaakov Stein; pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history here)

Glad to hear you were relieved when http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815
was approved and published. So were all the authors and Ron Bonica,
who saw this through a very difficult IESG review. Stewart Bryant
held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end Ron brokered a deal where
Ron and Stewart would write the draft you found, and Stewart would
clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart's nit-picking technical
commentary was motivated only by ego and narrow-interest (pseudo-wires) IMO=
,
precipitating his desire to block the draft or cripple its message
though he was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Before we were done,
MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted the message that Stewart could not.

Part of the deal Ron brokered was that some OPS wg would pick-up and
work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't seem likely
to happen.

IETF processes will send this draft to expiration in a couple of weeks,
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00
and I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought back to life
and reviewed in any working group, then we should assign a reviewer
or two and let the comments fall where they may.  Preferably, no progress
will take place while Stewart is still on the IESG.

Al

From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Yaakov Stein
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests

PM-dir'ers

I was very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally c=
onvinced had a document
that clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational networks as if=
 they were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.

I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draft=
 mentioned in the subject line,
which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, without ad=
dressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.

Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the original 2544,
but also it rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the network at physica=
l line speed for a long time
instead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover =
throughput with minimum impact on the network
(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).

Needless to say it doesn't consider the impact of such blasting without TCP=
-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,
nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhood.

I think this is a draft that the PM directorate needs to discuss.

Y(J)S



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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US=
 link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'=
>Thanks for your consideration and agreement, Yaakov.<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew";color:windowtext'>Al<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid=
 #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>=
From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-=
serif";color:windowtext'> Yaakov Stein [mailto:yaakov_s@rad.com] <br><b>Sen=
t:</b> Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> MORTON JR., ALFRED C=
 (AL); pm-dir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-=
tests<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Al, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As o=
ne of the fathers of pseudowires and a long time personal friend of Stewart=
, I can almost understand his desires.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'>This has nothing to do with pseudowires (which have no QoS fea=
tures at all), but rather of MPLS-TE.</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>Had they said something about such testing only bei=
ng carried out when there is hard policing of the throughput,<span lang=3DA=
R-SA dir=3DRTL><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>the=
n I could have understood. But since this is a minority case, I believe tha=
t this draft needs to be considered harmful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Anyway, I am willing to play along as you suggest.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If it is re-opened, I volunteer to perform a revi=
ew&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:soli=
d #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'=
>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans=
-serif";color:windowtext'> MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:acmorton@att.c=
om] <br><b>Sent:</b> 11 April, 2013 19:49<br><b>To:</b> Yaakov Stein; pm-di=
r@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-bb-2544like-production-tests<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";co=
lor:windowtext'>Hi Yaakov, (sorry for the rant, but there's some history he=
re)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew";color:windowtext'>Glad to hear you were relieved when <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6815</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>was approved and published. So were al=
l the authors and Ron Bonica,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>wh=
o saw this through a very difficult IESG review. Stewart Bryant<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:windowtext'>held a DISCUSS for months, and in the end R=
on brokered a deal where<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Ron and=
 Stewart would write the draft you found, and Stewart would<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:windowtext'>clear his DISCUSS. It was exasperating. Stewart=
's nit-picking technical<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>comment=
ary was motivated only by ego and narrow-interest (pseudo-wires) IMO, &nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>precipitating his desire to bl=
ock the draft or cripple its message<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowt=
ext'>though he was/is no more than a tourist in this area. Before we were d=
one,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>MEF and ITU-T SG15 accepted=
 the message that Stewart could not.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowt=
ext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Part of the deal Ron=
 brokered was that some OPS wg would pick-up and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:windowtext'>work this draft, but that has not happened and it doesn't =
seem likely<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>to happen.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:win=
dowtext'>IETF processes will send this draft to expiration in a couple of w=
eeks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'><a href=3D"http://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00">http://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-bb-2544like-production-tests-00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:windowtext'>and I suggest we simply let that happen. If it's brought back=
 to life<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>and reviewed in any wor=
king group, then we should assign a reviewer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:windowtext'>or two and let the comments fall where they may.&nbsp; Prefer=
ably, no progress <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>will take pla=
ce while Stewart is still on the IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windo=
wtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Al<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'borde=
r:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div st=
yle=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in=
'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Taho=
ma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> pm-dir-bounces=
@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Yaakov Stein=
<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> pm-dir@iet=
f.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [pm-dir] draft-bb-2544like-production-tests<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>PM-dir&#8217;ers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I wa=
s very relieved when RFC 6815 was finally published, since we finally convi=
nced had a document<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>that=
 clearly stated that measuring throughput of operational networks as if the=
y were devices on a workbench was a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>I must have been sleeping to have missed it, but now I discovered the draf=
t mentioned in the subject line, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>which is attempting to bring back 2544 for operational networks, wi=
thout addressing the main reason that it is such a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>Not only is this draft not aligned with IPPM work since the=
 original 2544,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>but also i=
t rehashes the RFC 2544 method of blasting the network at physical line spe=
ed for a long time <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>inst=
ead of proposing the use of any of the modern mechanisms that discover thro=
ughput with minimum impact on the network<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>(e.g., MOSEAB, FORECASTER, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>Needless to say it doesn&#8217;t consider the impact of such blasting w=
ithout TCP-friendliness on neighboring TCP flows,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>nor of dimming the lights in the entire neighborhoo=
d.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think this is a draft that the PM direct=
orate needs to discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verd=
ana","sans-serif";color:red'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFF7B598Enjfpsrvexg7re_--

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Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 23:06:06 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Dear all,

This is an automatically generated email.  
It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a normative or informative reference.
It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance metric".

Regards, Benoit

===========================================================

Normative References
--------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
    
Informative References
----------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

drafts containing performance metric
------------------------------------
draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active	
draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active	
draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <In Last Call>	
draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active	
draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>	
draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active	
draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

From dromasca@avaya.com  Mon Apr 22 05:14:23 2013
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Cc: "shida@ntt-at.com" <shida@ntt-at.com>, "bclaise@cisco.com" <bclaise@cisco.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Hi PM-DIR,

The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390=
 review?=20

Thanks and Regards,

Dan




> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM
> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
> Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
>=20
>=20
> Hi PMDIR,
>=20
> As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
> review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
> This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
>=20
> Thanks and Regards,
>=20
> Dan
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir

From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Apr 23 06:17:49 2013
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:16:29 +0200
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Cc: "shida@ntt-at.com" <shida@ntt-at.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Hi Dan,

According to 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0,
  Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.
Vinajak, any news?

Regards,
> Hi PM-DIR,
>
> The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390 review?
>
> Thanks and Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM
>> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
>> Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
>> Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
>>
>>
>> Hi PMDIR,
>>
>> As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
>> review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
>> This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
>>
>> Thanks and Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pm-dir mailing list
>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>


From vinayakh@gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 18:36:27 2013
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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:06:24 +0530
Message-ID: <CAKe6YvN=aKiNupj+bW-OZoxtJ058w39a1kZ6R71iajoQy-Xd9A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33c85874ec0a04db115475
Cc: sunseawq@huawei.com, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, varun@comnet.tkk.fi, alan.d.clark@telchemy.com, "shida@ntt-at.com" <shida@ntt-at.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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--047d7b33c85874ec0a04db115475
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi PM Directorate / Authors / Others,

I reviewed the draft on the basis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit's suggestion
and found some missing information.
The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to get enough
context.

I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can make
the suggested changes.

My comments on the drafts are below:

Section specific comments
----------------------------------------

Section 4.2

What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it is not defined.

Section 4.2

When Interval duration bit is set, it is not clear how the interval is
communicated between the sender and receiver. Need to specify this
explicitly.

Security considerations section
The security considerations section refers to RFC 3611 which is more
generic (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections relevant
to this draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to DDoS attacks).

Overall comments
--------------------------
According to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous
measurement that should be identified. One possible source of errors is
clock synchronization between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is
not mentioned in the RFC.

Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measurement is
large such as a day of live broadcast television. Errors could easily creep
in due to clock skew if the end-point machines are not synchronized
sufficiently regularly.

Is there an implementation of this say in some opensource player such as
VLC ? This could make the basis of the RFC stronger.

The authors can elaborate a little bit on the relationship between this
metric and perceived and real user metric as well as dependence on other
factors such as encoder glitches or delays (alluded to in some places in
the draft)

Regards
Vinayak


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> According to https://docs.google.com/**spreadsheet/ccc?key=**
> 0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvV**Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0>
> ,
>  Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.
> Vinajak, any news?
>
> Regards,
>
>  Hi PM-DIR,
>>
>> The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC
>> 6390 review?
>>
>> Thanks and Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.**org<pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org>]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM
>>> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
>>> Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
>>> Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-**ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi PMDIR,
>>>
>>> As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
>>> review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-**ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt>
>>> **.
>>> This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
>>>
>>> Thanks and Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> pm-dir mailing list
>>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/pm-dir<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir>
>>>
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--047d7b33c85874ec0a04db115475
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Hi PM Directorate / Authors / Others,<br><br>I reviewed the draft on the ba=
sis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit&#39;s suggestion and found some missing infor=
mation.<br>The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to g=
et enough context.<br>
<br>I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can m=
ake the suggested changes.<br><br>My comments on the drafts are below:<br><=
br>Section specific comments<br>----------------------------------------<br=
>
<br>Section 4.2 <br><br>What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it =
is not defined.<br><br>Section 4.2 <br><br>When Interval duration bit is se=
t, it is not clear how the interval is communicated between the sender and =
receiver. Need to specify this explicitly.<br>
<br>Security considerations section<br>The security considerations section =
refers to RFC 3611 which is more=20
generic (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections=20
relevant to this draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to=20
DDoS attacks).<br><br>Overall comments<br>--------------------------<br>Acc=
ording to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous measurement t=
hat should be identified. One possible source of errors is clock synchroniz=
ation between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is not mentioned i=
n the RFC.<br>
<br>Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measuremen=
t is large such as a day of live broadcast television. Errors could easily =
creep in due to clock skew if the end-point machines are not synchronized s=
ufficiently regularly.<br>
<br>Is there an implementation of this say in some opensource player such a=
s VLC ? This could make the basis of the RFC stronger.<br><br>The authors c=
an elaborate a little bit on the relationship between this metric and perce=
ived and real user metric as well as dependence on other factors such as en=
coder glitches or delays (alluded to in some places in the draft)<br>
<br>Regards<br>Vinayak<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 23=
, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bc=
laise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Dan,<br>
<br>
According to <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKr=
qWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://=
docs.google.com/<u></u>spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D<u></u>0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dm=
x5bFJvV<u></u>Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0</a>,<br>

=A0Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.<br>
Vinajak, any news?<br>
<br>
Regards,<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi PM-DIR,<br>
<br>
The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390=
 review?<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">pm-dir-bounces@ietf.<u></u>org</a>] On Behalf<br>
Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a=
><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:shida@ntt-at.com" target=3D"_blank">shida@ntt-at.com<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.c=
om</a>; Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-<u></u>ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-=
10.txt</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi PMDIR,<br>
<br>
As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390<br>
review of <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-1=
0.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-<u></u>ietf-xrblock-r=
tcp-xr-jb-10.txt</a><u></u>.<br>
This document is in WGLC until 4/22.<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--047d7b33c85874ec0a04db115475--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Apr 24 05:53:29 2013
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Subject: [pm-dir] Benoit Claise's Discuss on	draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
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Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss

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for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem with the publication of this document. =

However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing
something, and I don't know what.

1. =

In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking
about:
   The new block type
   supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
   receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
   reported, together with the number of bursts.  This block is intended
   to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total
   packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.
   However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the
   metrics in this block.

I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]
      4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11
      4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11
Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in
which case you want to clearly mention it.
Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to
interpret it:

   To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
   algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
   the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
   equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].

So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."
What if it's not the case?

2.
You define "Discarded" as:
      A packet that arrives within
      this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
      thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
      shall be regarded as discarded. =


I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.
Those don't affect the quality.
On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.
You wrote in the draft:
   The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
   definitions in [RFC3611].

And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:
   discard rate: 8 bits
         The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been
         discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or
         early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter
         buffer.  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with
         the binary point at the left edge of the field.  It is
         calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded
         (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of
         packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by
         256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and
         taking the integer part.

So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total
number of packets discarded during discard bursts."


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

EDITORIAL
-
   This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
   metrics are typically used in Cumulative reports, however they also
   may be used in Interval reports. =


Cumulative -> cumulative =

Interval -> interval =


Unless those are definitions ... in which case they need a reference.
Reading further, I understand that you refer to:
         I=3D10: Interval Duration - the reported value applies to the
         most recent measurement interval duration between successive
         metrics reports.

         I=3D11: Cumulative Duration - the reported value applies to the
         accumulation period characteristic of cumulative measurements. =


You need a reference
OLD:
   This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
   metrics are typically used in Cumulative reports, however they also
   may be used in Interval reports. =


NEW:
   This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
   metrics are typically used in Cumulative Duration reports, however
they also
   may be used in Interval Duration reports (see the Interval Metric flag
in section 3.2).

 =


Note: there are many instances of capitalized words, for which I'm not
too sure if we deal with a definition, or if it's just a bad habit to
capitalize term in this industry. Example

  If Voice Activity Detection is used, the Burst and Gap Duration shall
   be determined as if silence packets had been sent, i.e. a period of
   silence in excess of Gmin packets will terminate a burst condition.

   The recommended value for the threshold Gmin in [RFC3611] results in
   a Burst being a period of time during which the call quality is
   degraded to a similar extent to a typical Pulse-Code Modulation(PCM)
   Severely Errored Second.

Please be consistent.

-
"The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
definitions in [RFC3611]."
This sentence should be in the terminology section, and not section 1.1

-

    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |    BT=3DNBGD    | I |   resv.   |      block length =3D 3         |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                        SSRC of Source                         |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |   Threshold   |         Packets Discarded in Bursts           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |       Total Packets expected in bursts        |   Reserved.   |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


Bursts and burst in the same picture. Pick one.

- To finish on the positive note, thanks for the RFC6390 template.



From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Wed Apr 24 11:15:20 2013
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Cc: xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Benoit,

I am glad you are happy with the use of the RFC6390 template this time ;-)

I won't be able to join the telechat tomorrow. So, let's try and resolve
your discuss via email (Qin will answer you as soon as he is back online).

Cheers,

Gonzalo

On 24/04/2013 3:53 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> No problem with the publication of this document. 
> However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing
> something, and I don't know what.
> 
> 1. 
> In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking
> about:
>    The new block type
>    supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>    receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
>    reported, together with the number of bursts.  This block is intended
>    to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total
>    packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.
>    However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the
>    metrics in this block.
> 
> I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]
>       4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11
>       4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11
> Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in
> which case you want to clearly mention it.
> Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to
> interpret it:
> 
>    To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>    algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>    the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>    equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> 
> So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."
> What if it's not the case?
> 
> 2.
> You define "Discarded" as:
>       A packet that arrives within
>       this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>       thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
>       shall be regarded as discarded. 
> 
> I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.
> Those don't affect the quality.
> On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.
> You wrote in the draft:
>    The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>    definitions in [RFC3611].
> 
> And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:
>    discard rate: 8 bits
>          The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been
>          discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or
>          early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter
>          buffer.  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with
>          the binary point at the left edge of the field.  It is
>          calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded
>          (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of
>          packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by
>          256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and
>          taking the integer part.
> 
> So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total
> number of packets discarded during discard bursts."
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> EDITORIAL
> -
>    This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
>    metrics are typically used in Cumulative reports, however they also
>    may be used in Interval reports. 
> 
> Cumulative -> cumulative 
> Interval -> interval 
> 
> Unless those are definitions ... in which case they need a reference.
> Reading further, I understand that you refer to:
>          I=10: Interval Duration - the reported value applies to the
>          most recent measurement interval duration between successive
>          metrics reports.
> 
>          I=11: Cumulative Duration - the reported value applies to the
>          accumulation period characteristic of cumulative measurements. 
> 
> You need a reference
> OLD:
>    This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
>    metrics are typically used in Cumulative reports, however they also
>    may be used in Interval reports. 
> 
> NEW:
>    This block provides information on transient IP problems.  Burst/Gap
>    metrics are typically used in Cumulative Duration reports, however
> they also
>    may be used in Interval Duration reports (see the Interval Metric flag
> in section 3.2).
> 
>  
> 
> Note: there are many instances of capitalized words, for which I'm not
> too sure if we deal with a definition, or if it's just a bad habit to
> capitalize term in this industry. Example
> 
>   If Voice Activity Detection is used, the Burst and Gap Duration shall
>    be determined as if silence packets had been sent, i.e. a period of
>    silence in excess of Gmin packets will terminate a burst condition.
> 
>    The recommended value for the threshold Gmin in [RFC3611] results in
>    a Burst being a period of time during which the call quality is
>    degraded to a similar extent to a typical Pulse-Code Modulation(PCM)
>    Severely Errored Second.
> 
> Please be consistent.
> 
> -
> "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
> definitions in [RFC3611]."
> This sentence should be in the terminology section, and not section 1.1
> 
> -
> 
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |    BT=NBGD    | I |   resv.   |      block length = 3         |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                        SSRC of Source                         |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |   Threshold   |         Packets Discarded in Bursts           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |       Total Packets expected in bursts        |   Reserved.   |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> 
> Bursts and burst in the same picture. Pick one.
> 
> - To finish on the positive note, thanks for the RFC6390 template.
> 
> 
> 


From bclaise@cisco.com  Thu Apr 25 02:58:38 2013
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
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Dear all,

In order to speed up the process, and to avoid exchanging many emails, I 
had a quick call with Qin. An efficient call.
See in line.
> Hi, Benoit:
> Thank for your valuable review, please see my reply inline below.
>
> Regards!
> -Qin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:53 PM
> To: The IESG
> Cc: pm-dir@ietf.org; xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No problem with the publication of this document.
> However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing
> something, and I don't know what.
>
> 1.
> In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking
> about:
>     The new block type
>     supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>     receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
>     reported, together with the number of bursts.  This block is intended
>     to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total
>     packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.
>     However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the
>     metrics in this block.
>
> I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]
>        4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11
>        4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11
> Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in
> which case you want to clearly mention it.
> Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to
> interpret it:
>
> [Qin]: The reporting results is independent of jitter calculation method.
> We may add this sentence at the end of the second sentence in the paragraph you are referring to.
> However I doubt we need to add something to clarify this, since burst gap discards metrics
> have no any dependency to jitter metrics or packet delay variation metrics and will not be affected by
> jitter metrics or how jitter is calculated. Am I right?
[Benoit] Now understood.
There is a difference between the jitter on the wire (PDV versus IPDV), 
and the de-jitter buffer algorithm.
This draft focuses on the latter.
Here is a proposal.
OLD:

    The new block type
    supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
    receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
    reported, together with the number of bursts.

NEW:

    The new block type
    supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
    jitter buffer at the receiver, i.e. by the jitter buffer and packet discard logic
    algorithms. The discards during discard bursts are
    reported, together with the number of bursts.



>
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
>
> So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."
> What if it's not the case?
>
> [Qin]: In the definition of Burst Gap in the section 2.1, we also said:
> "
>     Bursts and Gaps
>
>        The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that
>        of RTCP XR [RFC3611].
> "
> To make two places consistent, I propose to change the "may be" in the
> place you are referring to "is".
> OLD TEXT:
> "
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> "
> NEW TEXT:
> "
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps is an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> "

Discussing with Qin, the intend of this paragraph is that any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].

Proposal:
OLD TEXT:

    To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
    algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
    the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
    equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].

NEW TEXT:

    Any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic
    can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps
    concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].

It would even better (up to you) to put this text next to "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with definitions in [RFC3611]."
Important note: see the DISCUSS part 2, because this sentence will probably have to changed.

NEW NEW TEXT:
    The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
    definitions in [RFC3611]. This implies that any algorithm for jitter buffer
    and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts
    and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].
  
  
In the introduction, you should add a sentence such as (this was really a source of confusion for me):

    Reporting the specific jitter buffer and/or packet discard logic algorithms is out of scope of this draft.


>
> 2.
> You define "Discarded" as:
>        A packet that arrives within
>        this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>        thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
>        shall be regarded as discarded.
>
> I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.
> Those don't affect the quality.
> On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.
> You wrote in the draft:
>     The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>     definitions in [RFC3611].
>
> [Qin]: There was WG consensus to add this use case, I remembered it was proposed
> By Varun and Other proponent are Alan and Colin.
> Here is the pointer to one relevant discussion occured on the list when this draft was in WGLC.
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html
It was discussed and agreed in the WG, fine with me.
See below.
>
>
> And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:
>     discard rate: 8 bits
>           The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been
>           discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or
>           early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter
>           buffer.  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with
>           the binary point at the left edge of the field.  It is
>           calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded
>           (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of
>           packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by
>           256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and
>           taking the integer part.
>
> So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total
> number of packets discarded during discard bursts."
>
> [Qin]: It was WG consensus to report each discard type rather report any combination of discard type using one discard count metric block.
> See the relevant discussion on the list:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html

>
> So Discards draft allow reporting any combination of discard types in each
> reporting interval by including several Discard Count Metric
> Report Blocks in a single RTCP XR packet.
> So it will be not problem you want to report the total number of packets discards during discard bursts.
Here is my issue.
One one side, I see

    "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
    definitions in [RFC3611]."

However, this is not correct because you take "duplication" into account 
in the Discard (actually Discarded) definition in this draft

       A packet that arrives within
       this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
       thrown away before playout due to packet_duplication_or redundancy
       shall be regarded as discarded.

What I learned from Qin over the phone is that this draft build on the 
Discard definition from RFC3611, but report multiple Discard counters.
And those multiple counters are actually covered in a different draft: 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12 [DISCARD]

    Discard Type (DT): 2bits

       This field is used to identify the discard type used in this
       report block.  The discard type is defined as follows:

          00: Report packet discarded or being thrown away before playout
          due to packets duplication.

          01: Report packet discarded due to too early to be played out.

          10: Report packet discarded due to too late to be played out.


One way or the other, you want to clearly mention that this draft build 
on the Discard definition [RFC 3611], but extend the concept to take 
into account the duplication, and report different counters 
[draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12]

Regards, Benoit


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      In order to speed up the process, and to avoid exchanging many
      emails, I had a quick call with Qin. An efficient call.<br>
      See in line.<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi, Benoit:
Thank for your valuable review, please see my reply inline below.

Regards!
-Qin
-----Original Message-----
From: Benoit Claise [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:bclaise@cisco.com</a>] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:53 PM
To: The IESG
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org">xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem with the publication of this document. 
However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing
something, and I don't know what.

1. 
In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking
about:
   The new block type
   supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
   receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
   reported, together with the number of bursts.  This block is intended
   to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total
   packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.
   However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the
   metrics in this block.

I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]
      4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11
      4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11
Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in
which case you want to clearly mention it.
Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to
interpret it:

[Qin]: The reporting results is independent of jitter calculation method.
We may add this sentence at the end of the second sentence in the paragraph you are referring to.
However I doubt we need to add something to clarify this, since burst gap discards metrics
have no any dependency to jitter metrics or packet delay variation metrics and will not be affected by
jitter metrics or how jitter is calculated. Am I right?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    [Benoit] Now understood. <br>
    There is a difference between the jitter on the wire (PDV versus
    IPDV), and the de-jitter buffer algorithm.<br>
    This draft focuses on the latter. <br>
    Here is a proposal.<br>
    OLD:<br>
    <pre wrap="">   The new block type
   supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
   receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
   reported, together with the number of bursts. </pre>
    NEW:<br>
    <pre wrap="">   The new block type
   supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
   jitter buffer at the receiver, i.e. by the jitter buffer and packet discard logic
   algorithms. The discards during discard bursts are
   reported, together with the number of bursts. </pre>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

   To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
   algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
   the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
   equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].

So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."
What if it's not the case?

[Qin]: In the definition of Burst Gap in the section 2.1, we also said:
"
   Bursts and Gaps

      The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that
      of RTCP XR [RFC3611].
"
To make two places consistent, I propose to change the "may be" in the 
place you are referring to "is".
OLD TEXT:
"
   To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
   algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
   the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
   equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
"
NEW TEXT:
"
   To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
   algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
   the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps is an
   equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">
Discussing with Qin, the intend of this paragraph is that any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].

Proposal:
OLD TEXT:

   To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
   algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
   the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
   equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].

NEW TEXT:

  Â Any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic 
   can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps 
   concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].

It would even better (up to you) to put this text next to "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with definitions in [RFC3611]." 
Important note: see the DISCUSS part 2, because this sentence will probably have to changed.

NEW NEW TEXT:
   The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
   definitions in [RFC3611]. This implies that any algorithm for jitter buffer 
   and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts 
   and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].
 
Â 
In the introduction, you should add a sentence such as (this was really a source of confusion for me):

   Reporting the specific jitter buffer and/or packet discard logic algorithms is out of scope of this draft. 


</pre>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

2.
You define "Discarded" as:
      A packet that arrives within
      this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
      thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
      shall be regarded as discarded. 

I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.
Those don't affect the quality.
On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.
You wrote in the draft:
   The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
   definitions in [RFC3611].

[Qin]: There was WG consensus to add this use case, I remembered it was proposed 
By Varun and Other proponent are Alan and Colin.
Here is the pointer to one relevant discussion occured on the list when this draft was in WGLC.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
    It was discussed and agreed in the WG, fine with me.<br>
    See below.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">


And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:
   discard rate: 8 bits
         The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been
         discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or
         early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter
         buffer.  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with
         the binary point at the left edge of the field.  It is
         calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded
         (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of
         packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by
         256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and
         taking the integer part.

So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total
number of packets discarded during discard bursts."

[Qin]: It was WG consensus to report each discard type rather report any combination of discard type using one discard count metric block.
See the relevant discussion on the list:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

So Discards draft allow reporting any combination of discard types in each
reporting interval by including several Discard Count Metric
Report Blocks in a single RTCP XR packet.
So it will be not problem you want to report the total number of packets discards during discard bursts.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Here is my issue.<br>
    One one side, I see<br>
    <pre wrap="">   "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
   definitions in [RFC3611]."</pre>
    However, this is not correct because you take "duplication" into
    account in the Discard (actually Discarded) definition in this draft<br>
    <pre wrap="">      A packet that arrives within
      this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
      thrown away before playout due to packet <u>duplication </u>or redundancy
      shall be regarded as discarded. </pre>
    What I learned from Qin over the phone is that this draft build on
    the Discard definition from RFC3611, but report multiple Discard
    counters.<br>
    And those multiple counters are actually covered in a different
    draft:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12</a>Â 
    [DISCARD]
    <pre class="newpage">   Discard Type (DT): 2bits

      This field is used to identify the discard type used in this
      report block.  The discard type is defined as follows:

         00: Report packet discarded or being thrown away before playout
         due to packets duplication.

         01: Report packet discarded due to too early to be played out.

         10: Report packet discarded due to too late to be played out.
</pre>
    <br>
    One way or the other, you want to clearly mention that this draft
    build on the Discard definition [RFC 3611], but extend the concept
    to take into account the duplication, and report different counters
    [draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12]<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E51E@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:56:52 +0300
To: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Hi Vinayak,

Thanks for the review, comments are inline.=20

Regards,
Varun

----
http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~varun

On 24.4.2013, at 4.36, Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi PM Directorate / Authors / Others,
>=20
> I reviewed the draft on the basis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit's suggestion a=
nd found some missing information.
> The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to get enough c=
ontext.
>=20
> I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can make=
 the suggested changes.
>=20
> My comments on the drafts are below:
>=20
> Section specific comments
> ----------------------------------------
>=20
> Section 4.2=20
>=20
> What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it is not defined.
>=20

This is a placeholder constant and will be replaced by an 8-bit value assign=
ed by IANA. There are rfc editor notes in the document asking them on replac=
e it on document approval.=20


> Section 4.2=20
>=20
> When Interval duration bit is set, it is not clear how the interval is com=
municated between the sender and receiver. Need to specify this explicitly.

This is communicated in an additional block defined in rfc6776. I think sect=
ion 4.2 is missing a reference to that document.=20

We'll update the text to appropriately reference the rfc.=20


>=20
> Security considerations section
> The security considerations section refers to RFC 3611 which is more gener=
ic (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections relevant to th=
is draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to DDoS attacks).
>=20
> Overall comments
> --------------------------
> According to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous measureme=
nt that should be identified. One possible source of errors is clock synchro=
nization between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is not mentioned=
 in the RFC.
>=20

Explicitly, the senders and the receives don't need to be synchronized. This=
 is because we are comparing the inter packet interval at the sender and the=
 inter packet interval at the receiver (of the same packet). =20

> Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measurement i=
s large such as a day
> of live broadcast television. Errors could easily creep in due to clock sk=
ew if the end-point machines are not synchronized sufficiently regularly.
>=20

Yes this is a possible source of error, as the clock at either endpoint can d=
rift from its own reference clock and introduce errors.=20

We can make this more explicit in the text.=20

> Is there an implementation of this say in some opensource player such as V=
LC ? This could make the basis of the RFC stronger.
>=20
> The authors can elaborate a little bit on the relationship between this me=
tric and perceived and real user metric as well as dependence on other facto=
rs such as encoder glitches or delays (alluded to in some places in the draf=
t)

I think we can add something similar to the following in the introduction of=
 the document:

If packets miss their Playout time, they are discarded from the queue and de=
pending on the concealment method will affect the QoE.=20

>=20
> Regards
> Vinayak
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>=20
>> According to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprd=
GZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0,
>>  Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.
>> Vinajak, any news?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>>> Hi PM-DIR,
>>>=20
>>> The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6=
390 review?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks and Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Dan
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f
>>>> Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM
>>>> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: shida@ntt-at.com; bclaise@cisco.com; Gonzalo Camarillo
>>>> Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi PMDIR,
>>>>=20
>>>> As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
>>>> review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
>>>> This document is in WGLC until 4/22.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks and Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Dan
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pm-dir mailing list
>>>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> pm-dir mailing list
>> pm-dir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>=20

--Apple-Mail-B78F2F4B-1D43-4942-A775-F4A633DB975D
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	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Vinayak,</div><div><br></div><div>T=
hanks for the review, comments are inline.&nbsp;<br><br><div>Regards,</div><=
div>Varun</div><div><br></div><div>----</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.netl=
ab.tkk.fi/~varun">http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~varun</a></div></div><div><br>On=
 24.4.2013, at 4.36, Vinayak Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com"=
>vinayakh@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>Hi PM Directorate / Authors / Others,<br><br>I reviewed the draft on the b=
asis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit's suggestion and found some missing informati=
on.<br>The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to get en=
ough context.<br>
<br>I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can ma=
ke the suggested changes.<br><br>My comments on the drafts are below:<br><br=
>Section specific comments<br>----------------------------------------<br>
<br>Section 4.2 <br><br>What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it i=
s not defined.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is a place=
holder constant and will be replaced by an 8-bit value assigned by IANA. The=
re are rfc editor notes in the document asking them on replace it on documen=
t approval.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Sec=
tion 4.2 <br><br>When Interval duration bit is set, it is not clear how the i=
nterval is communicated between the sender and receiver. Need to specify thi=
s explicitly.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is communicated=
 in an additional block defined in rfc6776. I think section 4.2 is missing a=
 reference to that document.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We'll update the=
 text to appropriately reference the rfc.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><br><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<br>Security considerations section<br>The security considerations section r=
efers to RFC 3611 which is more=20
generic (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections=20
relevant to this draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to=20
DDoS attacks).<br><br>Overall comments<br>--------------------------<br>Acco=
rding to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous measurement tha=
t should be identified. One possible source of errors is clock synchronizati=
on between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is not mentioned in th=
e RFC.<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Explicitly, the senders and the r=
eceives don't need to be synchronized. This is because we are comparing the i=
nter packet interval at the sender and the inter packet interval at the rece=
iver (of the same packet).&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measurement i=
s large such as a day</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>of li=
ve broadcast television. Errors could easily creep in due to clock skew if t=
he end-point machines are not synchronized sufficiently regularly.<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes this is a possible source of e=
rror, as the clock at either endpoint can drift from its own reference clock=
 and introduce errors.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We can make this more e=
xplicit in the text.&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Is there a=
n implementation of this say in some opensource player such as VLC ? This co=
uld make the basis of the RFC stronger.</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><br>The authors can elaborate a little bit on the relationship b=
etween this metric and perceived and real user metric as well as dependence o=
n other factors such as encoder glitches or delays (alluded to in some place=
s in the draft)<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I think we can add some=
thing similar to the following in the introduction of the document:<br><div>=
<br></div><div>If packets miss their Playout time, they are discarded from t=
he queue and depending on the concealment method will affect the QoE.&nbsp;<=
/div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<br>Regards<br>Vinayak<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 23,=
 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcla=
ise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Dan,<br>
<br>
According to <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrq=
WIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://do=
cs.google.com/<u></u>spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D<u></u>0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5b=
FJvV<u></u>Uhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0</a>,<br>

&nbsp;Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.<br>
Vinajak, any news?<br>
<br>
Regards,<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi PM-DIR,<br>
<br>
The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390 r=
eview?<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">pm-dir-bounces@ietf.<u></u>org</a>] On Behalf<br>
Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:shida@ntt-at.com" target=3D"_blank">shida@ntt-at.com</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com=
</a>; Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-<u></u>ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10=
.txt</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi PMDIR,<br>
<br>
As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390<br>
review of <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10=
.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-<u></u>ietf-xrblock-rtc=
p-xr-jb-10.txt</a><u></u>.<br>
This document is in WGLC until 4/22.<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>=

<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>=

<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "varun@comnet.tkk.fi" <varun@comnet.tkk.fi>, "alan.d.clark@telchemy.com" <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>, "shida@ntt-at.com" <shida@ntt-at.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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Hi,Vinayak:
Thank for your thoughtful review, please see my reply inline below.

Regards!
-Qin

From: Vinayak Hegde [mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:36 AM
To: Benoit Claise
Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); shida@ntt-at.com; pm-dir@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camari=
llo; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; varun@comnet.tkk.fi; Qin Wu
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org=
/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt

Hi PM Directorate / Authors / Others,

I reviewed the draft on the basis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit's suggestion an=
d found some missing information.
The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to get enough c=
ontext.

I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can make =
the suggested changes.

My comments on the drafts are below:

Section specific comments
----------------------------------------

Section 4.2

What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it is not defined.
[Qin]:  Just to clarify, "NJB" is just used to stand for a block type value=
. It is not necessary to define it since "NJB" will be replaced with IANA a=
llocated value when this draft has been published.
See IANA allocation for new block type :
http://www.iana.org/assignments/rtcp-xr-block-types/rtcp-xr-block-types.xml
BTW:  NJB is the abbreviation of Network Jitter Buffer.

Section 4.2

When Interval duration bit is set, it is not clear how the interval is comm=
unicated between the sender and receiver. Need to specify this explicitly.
[Qin]: Just to clarify, this block will be sent together with measurement i=
nformation block defined in [RFC6776]. Measurement information block will c=
arry
Measurement interval.
See section 4, 1st paragraph:
"
  Instances of this Metrics Block refer by
   SSRC to the separate auxiliary Measurement Information block
   [RFC6776] which describes the measurement interval in use.  This
   Metrics Block relies on the measurement interval in the Measurement
   Information block indicating the span of the report and MUST be
   sent in the same compound RTCP packet as the measurement information
   block.  If the measurement interval is not received in the same
   compound RTCP packet as this Metrics Block, this Metrics Block MUST
   be discarded.
"


Security considerations section
The security considerations section refers to RFC 3611 which is more generi=
c (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections relevant to th=
is draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to DDoS attacks).
[Qin]: Just to clarify, regarding reaction to DDos attack, it has already b=
een clarified in the last paragraph of section 7,RFC3611. It said:
"
   The extensions also make certain denial of service attacks easier.
   This is because of the potential to create RTCP packets much larger
   than average with the per packet reporting capabilities of the Loss
   RLE, Duplicate RLE, and Timestamp Report Blocks.  Because of the
   automatic bandwidth adjustment mechanisms in RTCP, if some session
   participants are sending large RTCP packets, all participants will
   see their RTCP reporting intervals lengthened, meaning they will be
   able to report less frequently.  To limit the effects of large
   packets, even in the absence of denial of service attacks,
   applications SHOULD place an upper limit on the size of the XR report
   blocks they employ.  The "thinning" techniques described in Section<http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3611#section-4.1>
   4.1<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3611#section-4.1> permit the packet-by=
-packet report blocks to adhere to a
   predefined size limit.
"
So since we reference RFC3611, section 7, I believe the current text in the=
 security consideration section suffices.


Overall comments
--------------------------
According to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous measuremen=
t that should be identified. One possible source of errors is clock synchro=
nization between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is not mentione=
d in the RFC.

Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measurement is=
 large such as a day of live broadcast television. Errors could easily cree=
p in due to clock skew if the end-point machines are not synchronized suffi=
ciently regularly.

[Qin]: We did add a statement in the last paragraph of section 3.1 to say:
"
   Note that this idealized implementation assumes that the sender's RTP
   clock is synchronized to the clock in the receiver which is used to
   timestamp packet arrivals.  If there is no such inherent
   synchronization, the system may need to use an adaptive jitter buffer
   or other techniques to ensure reliable reception.
"
I think this statement suffices and we don't need to deep dig into it to ge=
t the bottom since that is not the focus of this draft.


Is there an implementation of this say in some opensource player such as VL=
C ? This could make the basis of the RFC stronger.
[Qin]: We have already mentioned fixed jitter buffer implementation and ada=
ptive jitter buffer implementation from the general perspective in this dra=
ft, but not give specific example like VLC
Since In practice jitter buffer implementations vary considerably.

The authors can elaborate a little bit on the relationship between this met=
ric and perceived and real user metric as well as dependence on other facto=
rs such as encoder glitches or delays (alluded to in some places in the dra=
ft)
[Qin]: I think it is better to focus on the terminal related factors we def=
ined in this draft, i.e., jitter buffer metrics, rather than mention other =
factors like encoder glitches, but you are right, we may
Need some text to clarify the relationship between this metric and QoE metr=
ics. I can add a sentence at the end of section 1.4 to say:
"
Note that terminal-related factors are used as
inputs to calculate QoE metrics.
"


Regards
Vinayak

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com<mailto:bc=
laise@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Dan,

According to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZ=
qMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0,
 Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.
Vinajak, any news?

Regards,

Hi PM-DIR,

The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390=
 review?

Thanks and Regards,

Dan



-----Original Message-----
From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:pm-di=
r-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM
To: pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
Cc: shida@ntt-at.com<mailto:shida@ntt-at.com>; bclaise@cisco.com<mailto:bcl=
aise@cisco.com>; Gonzalo Camarillo
Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt


Hi PMDIR,

As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390
review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt.
This document is in WGLC until 4/22.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan



_______________________________________________
pm-dir mailing list
pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


_______________________________________________
pm-dir mailing list
pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,Vinayak:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank for your thoughtful=
 review, please see my reply inline below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards!<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">-Qin<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Vinayak =
Hegde [mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Benoit Claise<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan); shida@ntt-at.com; pm-dir@ietf.org; Gonzalo=
 Camarillo; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; varun@comnet.tkk.fi; Qin Wu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi PM Directorate / A=
uthors / Others,<br>
<br>
I reviewed the draft on the basis of RFC 6390 as per Benoit's suggestion an=
d found some missing information.<br>
The draft makes several references to RFC 3611 which I read to get enough c=
ontext.<br>
<br>
I am ccing the authors from the mail addresses in the RFC so they can make =
the suggested changes.<br>
<br>
My comments on the drafts are below:<br>
<br>
Section specific comments<br>
----------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Section 4.2 <br>
<br>
What is NJB - First occurence of an acronym and it is not defined.<span sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]:&nbsp; Just to clarify, &#8220;NJB&#8221; is just used to stand=
 for a block type value. It is not necessary to define it since &#8220;NJB&=
#8221; will
 be replaced with IANA allocated value when this draft has been published.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">See IANA allocation for new block type :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">http://www.iana.org/assignments/rtcp-xr-block-types/rtcp-xr-block-typ=
es.xml<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">BTW: &nbsp;NJB is the abbreviation of Network Jitter Buffer.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Section 4.2 <br>
<br>
When Interval duration bit is set, it is not clear how the interval is comm=
unicated between the sender and receiver. Need to specify this explicitly.<=
span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]: Just to clarify, this block will be sent together with measure=
ment information block defined in [RFC6776]. Measurement information
 block will carry<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">Measurement interval.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">See section 4, 1<sup>st</sup> paragraph:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp; Instances =
of this Metrics Block refer by<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; SSRC=
 to the separate auxiliary Measurement Information block<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC=
6776] which describes the measurement interval in use.&nbsp; This<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; Metr=
ics Block relies on the measurement interval in the Measurement<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; Info=
rmation block indicating the span of the report and MUST be<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; sent=
 in the same compound RTCP packet as the measurement information<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; bloc=
k.&nbsp; If the measurement interval is not received in the same<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; comp=
ound RTCP packet as this Metrics Block, this Metrics Block MUST<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; be d=
iscarded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Security considerations section<br>
The security considerations section refers to RFC 3611 which is more generi=
c (though contains sufficient infomation). Only the sections relevant to th=
is draft can be replicated here (such as the reaction to DDoS attacks).<spa=
n style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]: Just to clarify, regarding reaction to DDos attack, it has alr=
eady been clarified in the last paragraph of section 7,RFC3611.
 It said:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; The extensions also make certain denial of service attacks easier.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; This is because of the potential to create RTCP packets much larger<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; than average with the per packet reporting capabilities of the Loss<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; RLE, Duplicate RLE, and Timestamp Report Blocks.&nbsp; Because of the<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; automatic bandwidth adjustment mechanisms in RTCP, if some session<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; participants are sending large RTCP packets, all participants will<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; see their RTCP reporting intervals lengthened, meaning they will be<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; able to report less frequently.&nbsp; To limit the effects of large<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; packets, even in the absence of denial of service attacks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; applications SHOULD place an upper limit on the size of the XR report<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; blocks they employ.&nbsp; The &quot;thinning&quot; techniques described i=
n
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3611#section-4.1">Section</a><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3611#section-4.1">4.1</a> permit t=
he packet-by-packet report blocks to adhere to a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; predefined size limit.</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">So since we reference RFC3611, section 7, I believe the current text =
in the security consideration section suffices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Overall comments<br>
--------------------------<br>
According to RFC 6390, there should be some sources of erroneous measuremen=
t that should be identified. One possible source of errors is clock synchro=
nization between sender and receiver to measure delay. This is not mentione=
d in the RFC.<br>
<br>
Another one could be clock skew when the interval period for measurement is=
 large such as a day of live broadcast television. Errors could easily cree=
p in due to clock skew if the end-point machines are not synchronized suffi=
ciently regularly.<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]: We did add a statement in the last paragraph of section 3.1 to=
 say:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; Note=
 that this idealized implementation assumes that the sender's RTP<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; cloc=
k is synchronized to the clock in the receiver which is used to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp; &nbsp;time=
stamp packet arrivals.&nbsp; If there is no such inherent<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; sync=
hronization, the system may need to use an adaptive jitter buffer<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">&nbsp;&nbsp; or o=
ther techniques to ensure reliable reception.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">I think this statement suffices and we don&#8217;t need to deep dig i=
nto it to get the bottom since that is not the focus of this draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Is there an implementation of this say in some opensource player such as VL=
C ? This could make the basis of the RFC stronger.<span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]: We have already mentioned fixed jitter buffer implementation a=
nd adaptive jitter buffer implementation from the general
 perspective in this draft, but not give specific example like VLC<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">Since In practice jitter buffer implementations vary considerably.
</span><br>
<br>
The authors can elaborate a little bit on the relationship between this met=
ric and perceived and real user metric as well as dependence on other facto=
rs such as encoder glitches or delays (alluded to in some places in the dra=
ft)<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">[Qin]: I think it is better to focus on the terminal related factors =
we defined in this draft, i.e., jitter buffer metrics, rather
 than mention other factors like encoder glitches, but you are right, we ma=
y<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">Need some text to clarify the relationship between this metric and Qo=
E metrics. I can add a sentence at the end of section 1.4
 to say:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">Note that termina=
l-related factors are used as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">inputs to calcula=
te QoE metrics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Vinayak<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Benoit Claise &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dan,<br>
<br>
According to <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKr=
qWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJv=
VUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0</a>,<br>
&nbsp;Vinajak is the point of contact for this draft.<br>
Vinajak, any news?<br>
<br>
Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi PM-DIR,<br>
<br>
The 2nd WGLC for this document ends today. Any news concerning the RFC 6390=
 review?<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 5:14 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a=
><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:shida@ntt-at.com" target=3D"_blank">shida@ntt-at.com<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">
bclaise@cisco.com</a>; Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
Subject: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi PMDIR,<br>
<br>
As a co-chair of XRBLOCK WG, I would like to request the an RFC 6390<br>
review of <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-1=
0.txt" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt</a>.<br>
This document is in WGLC until 4/22.<br>
<br>
Thanks and Regards,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] request for an RFC 6390 review of http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10.txt
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E705nkgeml501mbschi_--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Thu Apr 25 08:26:45 2013
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:26:00 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Cc: "xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
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Hi Qin,
>
> Hi,Benoit:
>
> Thank for your calling and proposed changes, I like to make additional 
> rewording based on your proposed text.
>
> Please see my reply below.
>
> Regards!
>
> -Qin
>
> *From:*Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:58 PM
> *To:* Qin Wu
> *Cc:* The IESG; xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org; 
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org; 
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on 
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and 
> COMMENT)
>
> Dear all,
>
> In order to speed up the process, and to avoid exchanging many emails, 
> I had a quick call with Qin. An efficient call.
> See in line.
>
>     Hi, Benoit:
>
>     Thank for your valuable review, please see my reply inline below.
>
>       
>
>     Regards!
>
>     -Qin
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>
>     Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:53 PM
>
>     To: The IESG
>
>     Cc:pm-dir@ietf.org  <mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>;xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org  <mailto:xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org  <mailto:draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>       
>
>     Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
>
>     draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss
>
>       
>
>     When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>
>     email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>
>     introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     Please refer tohttp://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>
>     for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     DISCUSS:
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>       
>
>     No problem with the publication of this document.
>
>     However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing
>
>     something, and I don't know what.
>
>       
>
>     1.
>
>     In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking
>
>     about:
>
>         The new block type
>
>         supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>
>         receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
>
>         reported, together with the number of bursts.  This block is intended
>
>         to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total
>
>         packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.
>
>         However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the
>
>         metrics in this block.
>
>       
>
>     I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]
>
>            4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11
>
>            4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11
>
>     Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in
>
>     which case you want to clearly mention it.
>
>     Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to
>
>     interpret it:
>
>       
>
>     [Qin]: The reporting results is independent of jitter calculation method.
>
>     We may add this sentence at the end of the second sentence in the paragraph you are referring to.
>
>     However I doubt we need to add something to clarify this, since burst gap discards metrics
>
>     have no any dependency to jitter metrics or packet delay variation metrics and will not be affected by
>
>     jitter metrics or how jitter is calculated. Am I right?
>
> [Benoit] Now understood.
> There is a difference between the jitter on the wire (PDV versus 
> IPDV), and the de-jitter buffer algorithm.
> This draft focuses on the latter.
> Here is a proposal.
> OLD:
>
>     The new block type
>     supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>     receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
>     reported, together with the number of bursts.
>
> NEW:
>
>     The new block type
>     supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>     jitter buffer at the receiver, i.e. by the jitter buffer and packet discard logic
>     algorithms. The discards during discard bursts are
>     reported, together with the number of bursts.
>
> [Qin]: Agree, I think jitter buffer algorithms and packet discard logic are still two different things, packet discard logic can be part of jitter buffer, so I made a little bit rewording as follows:
> OLD TEXT:
> â€œ
>     The new block type
>     supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>     receiver due to jitter.  The discards during discard bursts are
>     reported, together with the number of bursts.
>   
> â€
>   
> NEW TEXT:
> â€œ
>     The new block type
>     supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the
>     jitter buffer at the receiver, using packet discard logic according to the jitter buffer algorithms.
>     . The discards during discard bursts are
>     reported, together with the number of bursts.
>   
> â€
>   
[Benoit] Perfect.
>   
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
>   
> So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."
> What if it's not the case?
>   
> [Qin]: In the definition of Burst Gap in the section 2.1, we also said:
> "
>     Bursts and Gaps
>   
>        The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that
>        of RTCP XR [RFC3611].
> "
> To make two places consistent, I propose to change the "may be" in the
> place you are referring to "is".
> OLD TEXT:
> "
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> "
> NEW TEXT:
> "
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps is an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> "
>   
> Discussing with Qin, the intend of this paragraph is that any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].
>   
> Proposal:
> OLD TEXT:
>   
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
>   
> NEW TEXT:
>   
>     Any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic
>     can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps
>     concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].
>   
> [Qin]: Just to clarify, you ask me what the equivalent method is in the call, I revisited the first two paragraph of section  4.7.2 of RFC3611,
>   
> "
>     A burst is a period during which a high proportion of packets are
>     either lost or discarded due to late arrival.  A burst is defined, in
>     terms of a value Gmin, as the longest sequence that (a) starts with a
>     lost or discarded packet, (b) does not contain any occurrences of
>     Gmin or more consecutively received (and not discarded) packets, and
>     (c) ends with a lost or discarded packet.
>   
>     A gap, informally, is a period of low packet losses and/or discards.
>     Formally, a gap is defined as any of the following: (a) the period
>     from the start of an RTP session to the receipt time of the last
>     received packet before the first burst, (b) the period from the end
>     of the last burst to either the time of the report or the end of the
>     RTP session, whichever comes first, or (c) the period of time between
>     two bursts.
>   
> "
> I think the equivalent method are referring to the first two paragraph of section 4.7.2 of RFC3611 on what the burst is and what the gap is.
> In the draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13, section 2.1, it said:
> â€œ
>     Bursts and Gaps
>   
>        The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that
>        of RTCP XR [RFC3611].  RTCP XR views a RTP stream as being divided
>        into bursts, which are periods during which the discard rate is
>        high enough to cause noticeable quality degradation (generally
>        over 5 percent discard rate), and gaps, which are periods during
>        which discarded packets are infrequent and hence quality is
>        generally acceptable.
>   
> â€
> So draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13 didnâ€™t change what burst is and what gap is, which(Term Burst and Term Gap) are defined
> In RFC3611 and just use burst and gap defined in RFC3611.
> So maybe we can do the following change to the paragraph you are referring to:
> OLD TEXT:
> â€œ
>     To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
>   
> â€
> NEW TEXT:
> â€œ
>
>    To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>
>    algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>
>    the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps *shall use* an
>
>    equivalent method to that defined in the section 4.7.2 of [RFC3611].
>
>   
> â€
> It is equivalent to what your proposed and also emphasize this draft use the burst and gap definition in the RFC3611.
>   
>   
> It would even better (up to you) to put this text next to "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with definitions in [RFC3611]."
> Important note: see the DISCUSS part 2, because this sentence will probably have to changed.
>   
> *NEW NEW TEXT:*
> *    The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with*
> *    definitions in [RFC3611]. This implies that any algorithm for jitter buffer*
> *    and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts*
> *    and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].*
> *  *
> *In the introduction, you should add a sentence such as (this was really a source of confusion for me):*
> *  *
> *    Reporting the specific jitter buffer and/or packet discard logic algorithms is out of scope of this draft.*
>   
> [Qin]: Make sense, in this case, I suggest we donâ€™t move  the sentence â€œThe definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>     definitions in [RFC3611].â€ from the introduction to the terminology section.
>        And I propose the following change to section 1.1 with your proposed text:
> OLD TEXT:
> â€œ
> Section 1.1:
>     The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>     definitions in [RFC3611].  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an
>     equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].
> â€
> NEW TEXT:
> â€œ
> Section 1.1:
> The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>    definitions in [RFC3611]. To accommodate the range of jitter buffer
>     algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,
>     the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps shall use an
>     equivalent method to that defined in the section 4.7.2 of [RFC3611].
>     *Note that Reporting the specific jitter buffer algorithms and/or*
> *    packet discard logic is out of scope of this draft.*
[Benoit] perfect.
> **
>   
> â€
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     2.
>
>     You define "Discarded" as:
>
>            A packet that arrives within
>
>            this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>
>            thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
>
>            shall be regarded as discarded.
>
>       
>
>     I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.
>
>     Those don't affect the quality.
>
>     On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.
>
>     You wrote in the draft:
>
>         The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>
>         definitions in [RFC3611].
>
>       
>
>     [Qin]: There was WG consensus to add this use case, I remembered it was proposed
>
>     By Varun and Other proponent are Alan and Colin.
>
>     Here is the pointer to one relevant discussion occured on the list when this draft was in WGLC.
>
>     http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html
>
>     http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html
>
> It was discussed and agreed in the WG, fine with me.
> See below.
>
>   
>   
>   
> And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:
>     discard rate: 8 bits
>           The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been
>           discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or
>           early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter
>           buffer.  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with
>           the binary point at the left edge of the field.  It is
>           calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded
>           (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of
>           packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by
>           256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and
>           taking the integer part.
>   
> So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total
> number of packets discarded during discard bursts."
>   
> [Qin]: It was WG consensus to report each discard type rather report any combination of discard type using one discard count metric block.
> See the relevant discussion on the list:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html
>
>
>
>   
>   
> So Discards draft allow reporting any combination of discard types in each
> reporting interval by including several Discard Count Metric
> Report Blocks in a single RTCP XR packet.
> So it will be not problem you want to report the total number of packets discards during discard bursts.
>
> Here is my issue.
> One one side, I see
>
>     "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with
>     definitions in [RFC3611]."
>
> However, this is not correct because you take "duplication" into 
> account in the Discard (actually Discarded) definition in this draft
>
>        A packet that arrives within
>        this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>        thrown away before playout due to packet_duplication_or redundancy
>        shall be regarded as discarded.
>
> What I learned from Qin over the phone is that this draft build on the 
> Discard definition from RFC3611, but report multiple Discard counters.
> And those multiple counters are actually covered in a different draft: 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12 
> [DISCARD]
>
>     Discard Type (DT): 2bits
>   
>        This field is used to identify the discard type used in this
>        report block.  The discard type is defined as follows:
>   
>           00: Report packet discarded or being thrown away before playout
>           due to packets duplication.
>   
>           01: Report packet discarded due to too early to be played out.
>   
>           10: Report packet discarded due to too late to be played out.
>
>
> One way or the other, you want to clearly mention that this draft 
> build on the Discard definition [RFC 3611], but extend the concept to 
> take into account the duplication, and report different counters 
> [draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12]
>
> [Qin]: Agree, I propose to add the following at the end of  the definition of â€œ Received, Lost and Discardedâ€
> OLD TEXT:
> â€œ
> Section 2.1
>     Received, Lost and Discarded
>   
>        A packet shall be regarded as lost if it fails to arrive within an
>        implementation-specific time window.  A packet that arrives within
>        this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>        thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
>        shall be regarded as discarded.  A packet shall be classified as
>        one of received (or OK), discarded or lost.  The metric
>        "cumulative number of packets lost" defined in [RFC3550] reports a
>        count of packets lost from the media stream (single SSRC within
>        single RTP session).  Similarly the metric "number of packets
>        discarded" defined in [DISCARD] reports a count of packets
>        discarded from the media stream (single SSRC within single RTP
>        session) arriving at the receiver.  Another metric defined in
>        [RFC5725] is available to report on packets which are not
>        recovered by any repair techniques which may be in use.
> â€
> NEW TEXT:
> â€œ
> Section 2.1
> Received, Lost and Discarded
>   
>        A packet shall be regarded as lost if it fails to arrive within an
>        implementation-specific time window.  A packet that arrives within
>        this time window but is too early or late to be played out or
>        thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy
>        shall be regarded as discarded.  A packet shall be classified as
>        one of received (or OK), discarded or lost.  The metric
>        "cumulative number of packets lost" defined in [RFC3550] reports a
>        count of packets lost from the media stream (single SSRC within
>        single RTP session).  Similarly the metric "number of packets
>        discarded" defined in [DISCARD] reports a count of packets
>        discarded from the media stream (single SSRC within single RTP
>        session) arriving at the receiver.  Another metric defined in
>        [RFC5725] is available to report on packets which are not
>        recovered by any repair techniques which may be in use.
> *       Note that the term discard defined here build on the Discard*
> *       definition in [RFC 3611], but extend the concept to take into*
> *       account the packet duplication, and report different types of discard count  metrics*
> *       [draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12].*
> â€
>
>
Great.

Post and I'll clear my DISCUSS.

Regards, Benoit
>
>
> Regards, Benoit
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Qin,<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E705@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,Benoit:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank
            for your calling and proposed changes, I like to make
            additional rewording based on your proposed text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please
            see my reply below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">-Qin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Benoit Claise [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:bclaise@cisco.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:58 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Qin Wu<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> The IESG; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org">xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on
                draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with
                DISCUSS and COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<br>
            <br>
            In order to speed up the process, and to avoid exchanging
            many emails, I had a quick call with Qin. An efficient call.<br>
            See in line.<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Hi, Benoit:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thank for your valuable review, please see my reply inline below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Regards!<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>-Qin<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: Benoit Claise [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:bclaise@cisco.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: The IESG<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org">xrblock-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard@tools.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: Discuss<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>introductory paragraph, however.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Please refer to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>----------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DISCUSS:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>----------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>No problem with the publication of this document. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>However, before doing so, I have 2 points I want to address: I'm missing<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>something, and I don't know what.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>1. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>In this sentence, I wonder which jitter calculation you were speaking<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>about:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  The new block type<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  receiver due to jitter.Â  The discards during discard bursts are<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  reported, together with the number of bursts.Â  This block is intended<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  to be used in conjunction with [DISCARD] which provides the total<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  packets discarded, and on which this block therefore depends.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  However the metric in [DISCARD] may be used independently of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  metrics in this block.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>I know of the two methods [RFC 5481]<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  4.1. IPDV: Inter-Packet Delay Variation ........................11<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â  Â 4.2. PDV: Packet Delay Variation ...............................11<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Or maybe the results are independent of the jitter calculation method, in<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>which case you want to clearly mention it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Maybe it's explained with this sentence, but I don't know how to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>interpret it:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>[Qin]: The reporting results is independent of jitter calculation method.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>We may add this sentence at the end of the second sentence in the paragraph you are referring to.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>However I doubt we need to add something to clarify this, since burst gap discards metrics<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>have no any dependency to jitter metrics or packet delay variation metrics and will not be affected by<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>jitter metrics or how jitter is calculated. Am I right?<o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[Benoit] Now understood. <br>
          There is a difference between the jitter on the wire (PDV
          versus IPDV), and the de-jitter buffer algorithm.<br>
          This draft focuses on the latter. <br>
          Here is a proposal.<br>
          OLD:<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>Â Â  The new block type<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  receiver due to jitter.Â  The discards during discard bursts are<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  reported, together with the number of bursts. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">NEW:<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>Â Â  The new block type<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  jitter buffer at the receiver, i.e. by the jitter buffer and packet discard logic<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  algorithms. The discards during discard bursts are<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  reported, together with the number of bursts. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>

<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Qin]: Agree, I think jitter buffer algorithms and packet discard logic are still two different things, packet discard logic can be part of jitter buffer, so I made a little bit rewording as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  The new block type<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  receiver due to jitter.Â  The discards during discard bursts are<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  reported, together with the number of bursts. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  The new block type<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  supports the reporting of the proportion of packets discarded by the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  jitter buffer at the receiver, using packet discard logic according to the jitter buffer algorithms. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â . The discards during discard bursts are<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  reported, together with the number of bursts. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [Benoit] Perfect.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E705@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>So it "may be an equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611]."<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>What if it's not the case?<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>[Qin]: In the definition of Burst Gap in the section 2.1, we also said:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  Bursts and Gaps<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  of RTCP XR [RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>To make two places consistent, I propose to change the "may be" in the <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>place you are referring to "is".<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps is an<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>"<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Discussing with Qin, the intend of this paragraph is that any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â  Â Any algorithm for jitter buffer and packet discard logic <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â can be used at the condition that the bursts and gaps <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Qin]: Just to clarify, you ask me what the equivalent method is in the call, I revisited the first two paragraph of sectionÂ  4.7.2 of RFC3611,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">"<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  A burst is a period during which a high proportion of packets are<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  either lost or discarded due to late arrival.Â  A burst is defined, in<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  terms of a value Gmin, as the longest sequence that (a) starts with a<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  lost or discarded packet, (b) does not contain any occurrences of<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  Gmin or more consecutively received (and not discarded) packets, and<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  (c) ends with a lost or discarded packet.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  A gap, informally, is a period of low packet losses and/or discards.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  Formally, a gap is defined as any of the following: (a) the period<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  from the start of an RTP session to the receipt time of the last<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  received packet before the first burst, (b) the period from the end<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  of the last burst to either the time of the report or the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  RTP session, whichever comes first, or (c) the period of time between<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â  Â two bursts.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">"<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think the equivalent method are referring to the first two paragraph of section 4.7.2 of RFC3611 on what the burst is and what the gap is.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13, section 2.1, it said:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  Bursts and Gaps<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  The terms Burst and Gap are used in a manner consistent with that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  of RTCP XR [RFC3611].Â  RTCP XR views a RTP stream as being divided<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  into bursts, which are periods during which the discard rate is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  high enough to cause noticeable quality degradation (generally<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  over 5 percent discard rate), and gaps, which are periods during<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  which discarded packets are infrequent and hence quality is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  generally acceptable.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13 didnâ€™t change what burst is and what gap is, which(Term Burst and Term Gap) are defined <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In RFC3611 and just use burst and gap defined in RFC3611.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So maybe we can do the following change to the paragraph you are referring to:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Â Â  To
            accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Â Â  algorithms
            and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Â Â  the method
            used to distinguish between bursts and gaps
            <b>shall use</b> an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Â Â  equivalent
            method to that defined in the section 4.7.2 of [RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is equivalent to what your proposed and also emphasize this draft use the burst and gap definition in the RFC3611.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>It would even better (up to you) to put this text next to "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with definitions in [RFC3611]." <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Important note: see the DISCUSS part 2, because this sentence will probably have to changed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><b>NEW NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â Â  The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â Â  definitions in [RFC3611]. This implies that any algorithm for jitter buffer <o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â Â Â and packet discard logic can be used at the condition that the bursts <o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â Â Â and gaps concepts are equivalent to the ones defined in [RFC 3611].<o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â <o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>In the introduction, you should add a sentence such as (this was really a source of confusion for me):<o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b><o:p>Â </o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><b>Â Â  Reporting the specific jitter buffer and/or packet discard logic algorithms is out of scope of this draft. <o:p></o:p></b></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Qin]: Make sense, in this case, I suggest we donâ€™t moveÂ  the sentence â€œThe definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  definitions in [RFC3611].â€ from the introduction to the terminology section.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  And I propose the following change to section 1.1 with your proposed text:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Section 1.1:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â  Â The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  definitions in [RFC3611].Â  To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps may be an<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in[RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Section 1.1:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â  definitions in [RFC3611]. To accommodate the range of jitter buffer<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  algorithms and packet discard logic that may be used by implementors,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  the method used to distinguish between bursts and gaps shall use an<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  equivalent method to that defined in the section 4.7.2 of [RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  <b>Note that Reporting the specific jitter buffer algorithms and/orÂ  <o:p></o:p></b></span></pre>
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â packet discard logic is out of scope of this draft.</span></b></pre>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [Benoit] perfect. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E705@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>2.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>You define "Discarded" as:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  A packet that arrives within<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  this time window but is too early or late to be played out or<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  shall be regarded as discarded. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>I wonder: what's the point to include the discarded duplicated packet.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Those don't affect the quality.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>On top of that, it's inconsistent with "Discard" definition of RFC 3611.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>You wrote in the draft:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â  definitions in [RFC3611].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <pre>[Qin]: There was WG consensus to add this use case, I remembered it was proposed <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>By Varun and Other proponent are Alan and Colin.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Here is the pointer to one relevant discussion occured on the list when this draft was in WGLC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00572.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00573.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">It was discussed and agreed in the WG, fine
          with me.<br>
          See below.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>And RFC 3611 Discard mentions:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  discard rate: 8 bits<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  The fraction of RTP data packets from the source that have been<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  discarded since the beginning of reception, due to late or<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  early arrival, under-run or overflow at the receiving jitter<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  buffer.Â  This value is expressed as a fixed point number with<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  the binary point at the left edge of the field.Â  It is<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  calculated by dividing the total number of packets discarded<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  (excluding duplicate packet discards) by the total number of<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  packets expected, multiplying the result of the division by<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  256, limiting the maximum value to 255 (to avoid overflow), and<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  taking the integer part.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>So you want to report the "Packets discarded in bursts", i.e. "The total<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>number of packets discarded during discard bursts."<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>[Qin]: It was WG consensus to report each discard type rather report any combination of discard type using one discard count metric block.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>See the relevant discussion on the list:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg00617.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>So Discards draft allow reporting any combination of discard types in each<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>reporting interval by including several Discard Count Metric<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Report Blocks in a single RTCP XR packet.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>So it will be not problem you want to report the total number of packets discards during discard bursts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Here is my issue.<br>
          One one side, I see<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>Â Â  "The definitions of Burst, Gap, Loss and Discard are consistent with<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â  definitions in [RFC3611]."<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">However, this is not correct because you
          take "duplication" into account in the Discard (actually
          Discarded) definition in this draft<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  A packet that arrives within<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  this time window but is too early or late to be played out or<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  thrown away before playout due to packet <u>duplication </u>or redundancy<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  shall be regarded as discarded. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">What I learned from Qin over the phone is
          that this draft build on the Discard definition from RFC3611,
          but report multiple Discard counters.<br>
          And those multiple counters are actually covered in a
          different draft: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12</a>Â 
          [DISCARD] <o:p>
          </o:p></p>
        <pre>Â Â Â Discard Type (DT): 2bits<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  This field is used to identify the discard type used in this<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  report block.Â  The discard type is defined as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  00: Report packet discarded or being thrown away before playout<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  due to packets duplication.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  01: Report packet discarded due to too early to be played out.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  10: Report packet discarded due to too late to be played out.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          One way or the other, you want to clearly mention that this
          draft build on the Discard definition [RFC 3611], but extend
          the concept to take into account the duplication, and report
          different counters [draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12]<span
            style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Qin]: Agree, I propose to add the following at the end of Â the definition of â€œ Received, Lost and Discardedâ€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLD TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œ<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Section 2.1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â  Received, Lost and Discarded<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  A packet shall be regarded as lost if it fails to arrive within an<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  implementation-specific time window.Â  A packet that arrives within<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  this time window but is too early or late to be played out or<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  shall be regarded as discarded.Â  A packet shall be classified as<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  one of received (or OK), discarded or lost.Â  The metric<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â  Â "cumulative number of packets lost" defined in [RFC3550] reports a<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  count of packets lost from the media stream (single SSRC within<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  single RTP session).Â  Similarly the metric "number of packets<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  discarded" defined in [DISCARD] reports a count of packets<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  discarded from the media stream (single SSRC within single RTP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  session) arriving at the receiver.Â  Another metric defined in<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  [RFC5725] is available to report on packets which are not<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  recovered by any repair techniques which may be in use.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€œÂ Â  <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Section 2.1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Received, Lost and Discarded<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  A packet shall be regarded as lost if it fails to arrive within an<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  implementation-specific time window.Â  A packet that arrives within<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  this time window but is too early or late to be played out or<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  thrown away before playout due to packet duplication or redundancy<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  shall be regarded as discarded.Â  A packet shall be classified as<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  one of received (or OK), discarded or lost.Â  The metric<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  "cumulative number of packets lost" defined in [RFC3550] reports a<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  count of packets lost from the media stream (single SSRC within<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  single RTP session).Â  Similarly the metric "number of packets<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  discarded" defined in [DISCARD] reports a count of packets<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  discarded from the media stream (single SSRC within single RTP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  session) arriving at the receiver.Â  Another metric defined in<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  [RFC5725] is available to report on packets which are not<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  recovered by any repair techniques which may be in use.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  Note that the term discard defined here build on the Discard<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  definition in [RFC 3611], but extend the concept to take into <o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â Â account the packet duplication, and report different types of discard countÂ  metrics<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
        <pre><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Â Â Â Â Â  [draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12].<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">â€<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
        </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Great.<br>
    <br>
    Post and I'll clear my DISCUSS.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4E705@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">
          <br>
          Regards, Benoit<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-13: (with DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA43A4EA96nkgeml501mbschi_--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Sun Apr 28 14:06:28 2013
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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:06:05 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: pm-dir@ietf.org
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Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Dear all,

This is an automatically generated email.  
It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a normative or informative reference.
It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance metric".

Regards, Benoit

===========================================================

Normative References
--------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
    
Informative References
----------------------
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Publication Requested>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

drafts containing performance metric
------------------------------------
draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active	
draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active	
draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active	
draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>	
draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active	
draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>	
draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active	
draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <AD Evaluation>	
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <Publication Requested>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active	

From acmorton@att.com  Mon Apr 29 12:07:19 2013
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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:07:10 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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pm-dir,

I just brought our shared spread sheet up to date:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJv=
VUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0

The diff below is the sort of thing I hope we will soon see appended to
our weekly e-mails from Benoit. Until that's possible, I will try to
run the diffs myself (when I have access to the machine running the=20
scripts, unfortunately it's a lab machine so not easily accessible)
and subsequently update the spread sheet.

Obviously, we have many documents without reviewers assigned!
Please look at the list and volunteer. There's a particular need to
review the drafts on lines 2 and 4.

regards,
Al
pm-dir admin

Diffs from "Last Week" (actually 04-12) -=3Dold, +=3Dnew
--------------------
--- pmol-old-content.txt	2013-04-12...
+++ pmol-uniq-content.txt	2013-04-29 14:24:21.021862213 -0400
@@ -4 +4 @@
-draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active=09
+draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active=09
@@ -6,2 +6,2 @@
-draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <In Last Call>=09
-draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <AD Evaluation>=09
+draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>=09
+draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed>=09
@@ -13,4 +13,2 @@
-draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active=09
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12   In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>=09
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11      In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup
needed>=09
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active=09
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>=09
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>=09
@@ -18 +16 @@
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active=09
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Publication Requested>=09
@@ -20 +18 @@
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active=09
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active=09


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:06 PM
> To: pm-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> This is an automatically generated email.
> It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a
> normative or informative reference.
> It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance
> metric".
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> Normative References
> --------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
>=20
> Informative References
> ----------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
>=20
> drafts containing performance metric
> ------------------------------------
> draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active
> draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active
> draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active
> draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active
> draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active
> draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active
> draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active
> draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir

From vinayakh@gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 17:26:33 2013
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References: <20130428210605.GA5863@sweet-brew-5.cisco.com> <F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFF9F1AC4@njfpsrvexg7.research.att.com>
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From: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>
To: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacba8298d01904db890dee
Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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--047d7bacba8298d01904db890dee
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Al,

I am looking at the sheet now and I am not able to see the changes. For
example, I cannot see ippm-rate-problem-03 in the list. Also I see that
RTCP-xr-loss-conceal is on -05 but the sheet says -04. Probably not
updated. Can you please check if the updation has synced with google.
Google can sometimes be lazy with syncing docs.

That said I can volunteer to pick up 3 drafts for review as long as the
review deadline is atleast 3 weeks away:
1. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05
2. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02
3. draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03

I checked the expiry dates on all three and they are atleast a few months
away. But I am not sure if any of the authors has requested an early
review. Picking up the rtcp stuff since I have already done 1 review and am
familiar with the subject matter.

Regards
Vinayak

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37 AM, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) <
acmorton@att.com> wrote:

> pm-dir,
>
> I just brought our shared spread sheet up to date:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=0
>
> The diff below is the sort of thing I hope we will soon see appended to
> our weekly e-mails from Benoit. Until that's possible, I will try to
> run the diffs myself (when I have access to the machine running the
> scripts, unfortunately it's a lab machine so not easily accessible)
> and subsequently update the spread sheet.
>
> Obviously, we have many documents without reviewers assigned!
> Please look at the list and volunteer. There's a particular need to
> review the drafts on lines 2 and 4.
>
> regards,
> Al
> pm-dir admin
>
> Diffs from "Last Week" (actually 04-12) -=old, +=new
> --------------------
> --- pmol-old-content.txt        2013-04-12...
> +++ pmol-uniq-content.txt       2013-04-29 14:24:21.021862213 -0400
> @@ -4 +4 @@
> -draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active
> +draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active
> @@ -6,2 +6,2 @@
> -draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <In Last Call>
> -draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> +draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> +draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed>
> @@ -13,4 +13,2 @@
> -draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active
> -draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>
> -draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup
> needed>
> -draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
> +draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> +draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> @@ -18 +16 @@
> -draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active
> +draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> @@ -20 +18 @@
> -draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active
> +draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of Benoit Claise
> > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:06 PM
> > To: pm-dir@ietf.org
> > Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > This is an automatically generated email.
> > It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a
> > normative or informative reference.
> > It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance
> > metric".
> >
> > Regards, Benoit
> >
> > ===========================================================
> >
> > Normative References
> > --------------------
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> >
> > Informative References
> > ----------------------
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
> >
> > drafts containing performance metric
> > ------------------------------------
> > draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active
> > draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active
> > draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active
> > draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active
> > draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active
> > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> > draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> > draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active
> > draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> > Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
> > _______________________________________________
> > pm-dir mailing list
> > pm-dir@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
>

--047d7bacba8298d01904db890dee
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Al,<br><br>I am looking at the sheet now and I am not able to see the ch=
anges. For example, I cannot see ippm-rate-problem-03 in the list. Also I s=
ee that RTCP-xr-loss-conceal is on -05 but the sheet says -04. Probably not=
 updated. Can you please check if the updation has synced with google. Goog=
le can sometimes be lazy with syncing docs.<br>
<br>That said I can volunteer to pick up 3 drafts for review as long as the=
 review deadline is atleast 3 weeks away:<br>1. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-=
loss-conceal-05<br>2. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02<br>
3. draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03<br><br>I checked the expiry dates on all=
 three and they are atleast a few months away. But I am not sure if any of =
the authors has requested an early review. Picking up the rtcp stuff since =
I have already done 1 review and am familiar with the subject matter.<br>
<br>Regards<br>Vinayak<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 30, 20=
13 at 12:37 AM, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:acmorton@att.com" target=3D"_blank">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">pm-dir,<br>
<br>
I just brought our shared spread sheet up to date:<br>
<a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqM=
nB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.c=
om/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=
=3D0</a><br>

<br>
The diff below is the sort of thing I hope we will soon see appended to<br>
our weekly e-mails from Benoit. Until that&#39;s possible, I will try to<br=
>
run the diffs myself (when I have access to the machine running the<br>
scripts, unfortunately it&#39;s a lab machine so not easily accessible)<br>
and subsequently update the spread sheet.<br>
<br>
Obviously, we have many documents without reviewers assigned!<br>
Please look at the list and volunteer. There&#39;s a particular need to<br>
review the drafts on lines 2 and 4.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Al<br>
pm-dir admin<br>
<br>
Diffs from &quot;Last Week&quot; (actually 04-12) -=3Dold, +=3Dnew<br>
--------------------<br>
--- pmol-old-content.txt =A0 =A0 =A0 =A02013-04-12...<br>
+++ pmol-uniq-content.txt =A0 =A0 =A0 2013-04-29 14:24:21.021862213 -0400<b=
r>
@@ -4 +4 @@<br>
-draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Active=
<br>
+draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Active=
<br>
@@ -6,2 +6,2 @@<br>
-draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In I=
ESG processing - ID<br>
Tracker state &lt;In Last Call&gt;<br>
-draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 In=
 IESG processing - ID<br>
Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>
+draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In I=
ESG processing - ID<br>
<div class=3D"im">Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Ne=
eded&gt;<br>
</div>+draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 In IESG processing - ID<br>
Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed&gt;<br>
@@ -13,4 +13,2 @@<br>
-draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active=
<br>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12 =A0 In IESG processing - I=
D<br>
Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation&gt;<br>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG processing=
 - ID<br>
Tracker state &lt;Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup<=
br>
needed&gt;<br>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Active<br>
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 =A0 In IESG processing - I=
D<br>
<div class=3D"im">Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Followup&gt;<br>
</div>+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
<div class=3D"im">Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>
</div>@@ -18 +16 @@<br>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Active<br>
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
Tracker state &lt;Publication Requested&gt;<br>
@@ -20 +18 @@<br>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active=
<br>
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active=
<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt; Of Benoit Claise<br>
&gt; Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:06 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is an automatically generated email.<br>
&gt; It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as=
 a<br>
&gt; normative or informative reference.<br>
&gt; It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain &quot;performa=
nce<br>
&gt; metric&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards, Benoit<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Normative References<br>
&gt; --------------------<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Informative References<br>
&gt; ----------------------<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 =A0 In IESG processing=
 - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Followup&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proces=
sing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 In IESG =
processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Publication Requested&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Ac=
tive<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Acti=
ve<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04 =A0 =A0 Active<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; drafts containing performance metric<br>
&gt; ------------------------------------<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Ac=
tive<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ac=
tive<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Active=
<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
In IESG processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 In IESG processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 In I=
ESG processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active=
<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In=
 IESG processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 =A0 In IESG processing=
 - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Followup&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proces=
sing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 In IESG =
processing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;Publication Requested&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Ac=
tive<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Active<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Acti=
ve<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In IESG proc=
essing - ID<br>
&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04 =A0 =A0 Active<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; pm-dir mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
pm-dir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--047d7bacba8298d01904db890dee--

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From: "MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:09:14 -0400
Thread-Topic: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "pm-dir@ietf.org" <pm-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
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Hi Vin,

You're right about -xr-loss-conceal-05, it didn't show-up in the
diff, so the new version must have been uploaded before April 12.
There were a few updates between March 15 and April 12 that the
diff didn't capture - we will sort those out over time.

However, I'm not sure it's worth tracking the version number in general.
I think we want to indicate which version was reviewed in the status
column, and that's probably all we need...

I've added you as reviewer for xr-loss-conceal, and xr-synchronization.
draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem- does not define metrics, it's just a problem =
statement,
but feel free to provide comments on the IPPM list.

There are lots of knowledgeable performance people reading drafts in BMWG a=
nd IPPM,
so while we have plenty of drafts in other working groups needing volunteer=
s and
completed reviews, I have left those off the list.

Al
pm-dir admin



From: Vinayak Hegde [mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 8:27 PM
To: MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)
Cc: Benoit Claise; pm-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email

Hi Al,

I am looking at the sheet now and I am not able to see the changes. For exa=
mple, I cannot see ippm-rate-problem-03 in the list. Also I see that RTCP-x=
r-loss-conceal is on -05 but the sheet says -04. Probably not updated. Can =
you please check if the updation has synced with google. Google can sometim=
es be lazy with syncing docs.

That said I can volunteer to pick up 3 drafts for review as long as the rev=
iew deadline is atleast 3 weeks away:
1. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05
2. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02
3. draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03

I checked the expiry dates on all three and they are atleast a few months a=
way. But I am not sure if any of the authors has requested an early review.=
 Picking up the rtcp stuff since I have already done 1 review and am famili=
ar with the subject matter.

Regards
Vinayak
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37 AM, MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) <acmorton@att.c=
om<mailto:acmorton@att.com>> wrote:
pm-dir,

I just brought our shared spread sheet up to date:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJv=
VUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0

The diff below is the sort of thing I hope we will soon see appended to
our weekly e-mails from Benoit. Until that's possible, I will try to
run the diffs myself (when I have access to the machine running the
scripts, unfortunately it's a lab machine so not easily accessible)
and subsequently update the spread sheet.

Obviously, we have many documents without reviewers assigned!
Please look at the list and volunteer. There's a particular need to
review the drafts on lines 2 and 4.

regards,
Al
pm-dir admin

Diffs from "Last Week" (actually 04-12) -=3Dold, +=3Dnew
--------------------
--- pmol-old-content.txt        2013-04-12...
+++ pmol-uniq-content.txt       2013-04-29 14:24:21.021862213 -0400
@@ -4 +4 @@
-draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02                   Active
+draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active
@@ -6,2 +6,2 @@
-draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <In Last Call>
-draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
+draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
+draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed>
@@ -13,4 +13,2 @@
-draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02                  Active
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-12   In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <IESG Evaluation>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11      In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised - writeup
needed>
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-concsec-03             Active
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
@@ -18 +16 @@
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-12             Active
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
Tracker state <Publication Requested>
@@ -20 +18 @@
-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10                  Active
+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:pm-=
dir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
> Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:06 PM
> To: pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
> Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors generated email
>
> Dear all,
>
> This is an automatically generated email.
> It lists the IETF internet-drafts that reference the PMOL RFC 6390, as a
> normative or informative reference.
> It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain "performance
> metric".
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> Normative References
> --------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
>
> Informative References
> ----------------------
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
>
> drafts containing performance metric
> ------------------------------------
> draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06                    Active
> draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14                       Active
> draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-meth-04                  Active
> draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03                   Active
> draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc2680-02               Active
> draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06                    In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead>
> draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07                       In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> draft-ietf-nvo3-framework-02                      Active
> draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08                 In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed>
> draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00              Active
> draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06                  In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <AD Evaluation>
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06                    Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14   In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <IESG Evaluation::AD Followup>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12      In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External Party>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13             In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <Publication Requested>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11                  Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05        Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06                 Active
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11        In IESG processing - ID
> Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>
> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04     Active
> _______________________________________________
> pm-dir mailing list
> pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir
_______________________________________________
pm-dir mailing list
pm-dir@ietf.org<mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir


--_000_F1312FAF1A1E624DA0972D1C9A91379A1BFF9F1B75njfpsrvexg7re_
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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=
=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Micros=
oft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
	font-family:"Courier New";
	color:windowtext;}
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	{mso-style-type:export-only;
	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
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	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Hi Vin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>You're right about -xr-loss-conceal-05, =
it didn't show-up in the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>diff, so the new version=
 must have been uploaded before April 12.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>There w=
ere a few updates between March 15 and April 12 that the <o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Couri=
er New"'>diff didn't capture - we will sort those out over time.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>However, I'm not sure it's=
 worth tracking the version number in general.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I =
think we want to indicate which version was reviewed in the status <o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Courier New"'>column, and that's probably all we need...<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I've added you as reviewer =
for xr-loss-conceal, and xr-synchronization.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>dra=
ft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem- does not define metrics, it's just a problem sta=
tement,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>but feel free to provide comments on the =
IPPM list. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>The=
re are lots of knowledgeable performance people reading drafts in BMWG and =
IPPM,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>so while we have plenty of drafts in other =
working groups needing volunteers and <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>completed =
reviews, I have left those off the list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New"'>Al<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>pm-dir admin<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Couri=
er New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:=
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;=
border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>F=
rom:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-s=
erif"'> Vinayak Hegde [mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
April 29, 2013 8:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> MORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL)<br><b>Cc:</b=
> Benoit Claise; pm-dir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [pm-dir] Performanc=
e metrics doctors generated email<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bott=
om:12.0pt'>Hi Al,<br><br>I am looking at the sheet now and I am not able to=
 see the changes. For example, I cannot see ippm-rate-problem-03 in the lis=
t. Also I see that RTCP-xr-loss-conceal is on -05 but the sheet says -04. P=
robably not updated. Can you please check if the updation has synced with g=
oogle. Google can sometimes be lazy with syncing docs.<br><br>That said I c=
an volunteer to pick up 3 drafts for review as long as the review deadline =
is atleast 3 weeks away:<br>1. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05<b=
r>2. draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-02<br>3. draft-ietf-ippm-ra=
te-problem-03<br><br>I checked the expiry dates on all three and they are a=
tleast a few months away. But I am not sure if any of the authors has reque=
sted an early review. Picking up the rtcp stuff since I have already done 1=
 review and am familiar with the subject matter.<br><br>Regards<br>Vinayak<=
o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37 AM, M=
ORTON JR., ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" target=3D"=
_blank">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
pm-dir,<br><br>I just brought our shared spread sheet up to date:<br><a hre=
f=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx=
5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.com/spr=
eadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AmKrqWIOBsprdGZqMnB6dmx5bFJvVUhta3VLSjl3SkE#gid=3D0</a>=
<br><br>The diff below is the sort of thing I hope we will soon see appende=
d to<br>our weekly e-mails from Benoit. Until that's possible, I will try t=
o<br>run the diffs myself (when I have access to the machine running the<br=
>scripts, unfortunately it's a lab machine so not easily accessible)<br>and=
 subsequently update the spread sheet.<br><br>Obviously, we have many docum=
ents without reviewers assigned!<br>Please look at the list and volunteer. =
There's a particular need to<br>review the drafts on lines 2 and 4.<br><br>=
regards,<br>Al<br>pm-dir admin<br><br>Diffs from &quot;Last Week&quot; (act=
ually 04-12) -=3Dold, +=3Dnew<br>--------------------<br>--- pmol-old-conte=
nt.txt &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2013-04-12...<br>+++ pmol-uniq-content.tx=
t &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2013-04-29 14:24:21.021862213 -0400<br>@@ -4 +4 @@<b=
r>-draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-02 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>+draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03 &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>@@ -6,2 +6,=
2 @@<br>-draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<br>Tracker state =
&lt;In Last Call&gt;<br>-draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG processing -=
 ID<br>Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>+draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-=
06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In =
IESG processing - ID<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tracker state =
&lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>+draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<br=
>Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed&gt;<br>@@ -13,4 +13,2 =
@@<br>-draft-ietf-rtgwg-cl-framework-02 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-=
discard-12 &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<br>Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluat=
ion&gt;<br>-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-11 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;In IESG processing - ID<br>Tracker state &lt;Approved-announcement to be =
sent::Point Raised - writeup<br>needed&gt;<br>-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-c=
oncsec-03 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>+draft-ietf-x=
rblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Follo=
wup&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-x=
r-burst-gap-loss-12 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<o:p></o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>@@ -18 +16 @@<br>-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-=
discard-12 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>+draft-ietf-=
xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IES=
G processing - ID<br>Tracker state &lt;Publication Requested&gt;<br>@@ -20 =
+18 @@<br>-draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-10 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>+draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<o:p></=
o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message--=
---<br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bounces=
@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir-bounces@ietf.org">pm-dir-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>&gt; Of Benoit Claise<br>&gt; Sent: Sunday,=
 April 28, 2013 5:06 PM<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-d=
ir@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: [pm-dir] Performance metrics doctors gener=
ated email<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Dear all,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This is an automatical=
ly generated email.<br>&gt; It lists the IETF internet-drafts that referenc=
e the PMOL RFC 6390, as a<br>&gt; normative or informative reference.<br>&g=
t; It also lists all the IETF internet-drafts that contain &quot;performanc=
e<br>&gt; metric&quot;.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Regards, Benoit<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Normative References<br>&gt; -----=
---------------<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metrics-05 A=
ctive<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Informative References<br>&gt; ----------------------=
<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 &nbsp; In IESG pro=
cessing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Followup&gt;<br>=
&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IE=
SG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>&gt; draft=
-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG pr=
ocessing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::External P=
arty&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;Pub=
lication Requested&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-metri=
cs-05 Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-=
rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft-iet=
f-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11 &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Qu=
eue&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04 &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 Active<br>&gt;<br>&gt; drafts containing performance metric<br>&gt; ------=
------------------------------<br>&gt; draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06 &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&=
gt; draft-ietf-alto-protocol-14 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-bmwg-ca-bench-m=
eth-04 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active=
<br>&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-rate-problem-03 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-testplan-rfc268=
0-02 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Active<br>&gt; draft-=
ietf-manet-olsrv2-mib-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waitin=
g for AD Go-Ahead&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-manet-smf-mib-07 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG process=
ing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-nvo=
3-framework-02 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-08 &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<br>&g=
t; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Revised I-D Needed&gt;<br>&gt=
; draft-ietf-pce-pcep-service-aware-00 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<br>&=
gt; Tracker state &lt;AD Evaluation&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage=
-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Ac=
tive<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-discard-14 &nbsp; In IESG=
 processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;IESG Evaluation::AD Followup&gt;=
<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-burst-gap-loss-12 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I=
n IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC Ed Queue&gt;<br>&gt; d=
raft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-decodability-11 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IES=
G processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;Waiting for AD Go-Ahead::Extern=
al Party&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-13 &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt=
;Publication Requested&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-discard-rle-m=
etrics-05 Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-jb-11 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrbl=
ock-rtcp-xr-loss-conceal-05 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Active<br>&gt; draft=
-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-qoe-06 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; Active<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-summary-stat-11 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In IESG processing - ID<br>&gt; Tracker state &lt;RFC E=
d Queue&gt;<br>&gt; draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-synchronization-04 &nbsp; &n=
bsp; Active<br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;=
 pm-dir mailing list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf=
.org</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><br>______=
_________________________________________<br>pm-dir mailing list<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:pm-dir@ietf.org">pm-dir@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/pm-dir" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/pm-dir</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>=

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