From nobody Fri Apr 1 07:16:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B089D12D5AA; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:16:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6RFvP2xkuImn; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 140B712D0F7; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 182.178.189.80.dyn.plus.net ([80.189.178.182]:52460 helo=[192.168.0.5]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1alzrr-0006Gl-7O; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 15:16:07 +0100 To: Aaron Falk References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <56FE82A5.1090304@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 15:16:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050708010900050605010608" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Cc: tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , "De Schepper, Koen \(Koen\)" , TCP Prague List , "tsv-ads@ietf.org" , AQM IETF list , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [aqm] [tcpm] [tsvwg] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 14:16:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050708010900050605010608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Thanks for reminding me. I completely lost track of doing this back in Feb (typically a symptom of my machine crashing, 'cos my own memory got corrupted years ago). I have requested a room from the secretariat for a 1hr session on Thursday 8 Apr 2016, preferably 9-10am, otherwise 16:20-17:20pm. I'll confirm on these lists as soon as I know. If we get 1st choice, apologies to those who were hoping to enjoy the new relaxed 10am start to IETF meetings The 2nd choice was picked in an attempt to avoid any relevant WG sessions, but it does clash with the fun-packed IAOC Meeting Venue Selection Criteria & Procedures BoF. Cheers Bob On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: > Did this get scheduled? > > --aaron > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF > > > wrote: > > Just to try to be helpful ... > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe > wrote: > > John, > > On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: > > Bob Briscoe > wrote: > > I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and > interested implementers. > > We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires > IETF, about L4S, > DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. > > This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF. > > It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and > could benefit from > formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and > others. > > OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter > can reasonably > be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be > split among > existing WGs. > > However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely. > > OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. > > > I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. > If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would > see the request. > > Thanks, > > Spencer > > Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline > on Friday. > > > Bob > > > -- > John Leslie > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpPrague mailing list > tcpPrague@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague > > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpm mailing list > tcpm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > aqm mailing list > aqm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------050708010900050605010608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron,

Thanks for reminding me.
I completely lost track of doing this back in Feb (typically a symptom of my machine crashing, 'cos my own memory got corrupted years ago).

I have requested a room from the secretariat for a 1hr session on Thursday 8 Apr 2016, preferably 9-10am, otherwise 16:20-17:20pm.
I'll confirm on these lists as soon as I know.

If we get 1st choice, apologies to those who were hoping to enjoy the new relaxed 10am start to IETF meetings
The 2nd choice was picked in an attempt to avoid any relevant WG sessions, but it does clash with the fun-packed IAOC Meeting Venue Selection Criteria & Procedures BoF.

Cheers



Bob

On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote:
Did this get scheduled?

--aaron

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to try to be helpful ...

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
John,

On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote:
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested implementers.

We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about L4S,
DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements.
    This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF.

    It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could benefit from
formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others.

    OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can reasonably
be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split among
existing WGs.

    However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely.
 OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that.
I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request.

Thanks,

Spencer
 
Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on Friday.


Bob


--
John Leslie <john@jlc.net>

_______________________________________________
tcpPrague mailing list
tcpPrague@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague

--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/



_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm




_______________________________________________
aqm mailing list
aqm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------050708010900050605010608-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 05:03:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F4412D532; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRAsEX6mIOd8; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5DC512D1E1; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-b315.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.179.21]:48593) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1anPh2-0006vZ-Rc; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:02:50 +0100 To: Aaron Falk , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Mirja Kuehlewind References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:02:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060501040200060605040004" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Cc: tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , "tsv-ads@ietf.org" , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen \(Koen\)" , AQM IETF list Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [aqm] [tcpm] [tsvwg] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:03:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060501040200060605040004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 Room: Quebracho B We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have to vacate early. We're building the agenda - will send shortly. We want to allow most time for people to talk from the floor. The general structure will be: * Introduction/Background * Clarification Questions * Recent Activity: Design / Evaluation / Industry * Build a standardisation roadmap * Build a BoF for the Berlin timeframe, and should it be non-WG forming. * Discussion / Q&A Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically. Bob On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: > Did this get scheduled? > > --aaron > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF > > > wrote: > > Just to try to be helpful ... > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe > wrote: > > John, > > On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: > > Bob Briscoe > wrote: > > I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and > interested implementers. > > We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires > IETF, about L4S, > DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. > > This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF. > > It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and > could benefit from > formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and > others. > > OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter > can reasonably > be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be > split among > existing WGs. > > However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely. > > OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. > > > I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. > If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would > see the request. > > Thanks, > > Spencer > > Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline > on Friday. > > > Bob > > > -- > John Leslie > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpPrague mailing list > tcpPrague@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague > > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpm mailing list > tcpm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > aqm mailing list > aqm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------060501040200060605040004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks,

We have a time and room for this Bar BoF:
Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016
Room: Quebracho B

We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room.
The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have to vacate early.

We're building the agenda - will send shortly.
We want to allow most time for people to talk from the floor.

The general structure will be:
* Introduction/Background
* Clarification Questions
* Recent Activity: Design / Evaluation / Industry
* Build a standardisation roadmap
* Build a BoF for the Berlin timeframe, and should it be non-WG forming.
* Discussion / Q&A

Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault.
I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically.


Bob

On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote:
Did this get scheduled?

--aaron

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to try to be helpful ...

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
John,

On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote:
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested implementers.

We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about L4S,
DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements.
    This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF.

    It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could benefit from
formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others.

    OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can reasonably
be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split among
existing WGs.

    However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely.
 OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that.
I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request.

Thanks,

Spencer
 
Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on Friday.


Bob


--
John Leslie <john@jlc.net>

_______________________________________________
tcpPrague mailing list
tcpPrague@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague

--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/



_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm




_______________________________________________
aqm mailing list
aqm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------060501040200060605040004-- From nobody Wed Apr 6 16:44:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F8A212D6BA; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 462U04aHfEdD; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EA5512D612; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-b315.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.179.21]:51398) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1anx7M-0006Ql-FL; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 00:44:14 +0100 References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe To: tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , TCP Prague List , AQM IETF list Message-ID: <57059F43.1050406@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 00:44:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010603060201010808070705" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Cc: "tsv-ads@ietf.org" , "De Schepper, Koen \(Koen\)" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [aqm] [tcpm] [tsvwg] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 23:44:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010603060201010808070705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague *Event details** *Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 Room: Quebracho B *Supporting materials / background:** *https://riteproject.eu/dctth/ To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it works. For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b Or chat with us afterwards *Proposed Agenda:** ***09:00 * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob] * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob] * Clarification Questions 09:15 * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.: - what people are doing on parts of the problem: - planned work - evaluation work - interest in implementing - willingness to review 09:40 * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead] * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame - should it be non-WG forming? - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem statement, etc. - which mailing list? - what name? * Discussion / Q&A 09:55 end Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor. Cheers Bob & Koen On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Folks, > > We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: > Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 > Room: Quebracho B > > We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. > The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have > to vacate early. > > Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. > I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically. > > > Bob > > On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: >> Did this get scheduled? >> >> --aaron >> >> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF >> wrote: >> >> Just to try to be helpful ... >> >> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe >> wrote: >> >> John, >> >> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: >> >> Bob Briscoe > > wrote: >> >> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and >> interested implementers. >> >> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos >> Aires IETF, about L4S, >> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. >> >> This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal >> BoF. >> >> It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and >> could benefit from >> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and >> others. >> >> OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter >> can reasonably >> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ >> be split among >> existing WGs. >> >> However this may turn out, I wish to participate >> remotely. >> >> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. >> >> >> I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. >> If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs >> would see the request. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Spencer >> >> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline >> on Friday. >> >> >> Bob >> >> >> -- >> John Leslie > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tcpPrague mailing list >> tcpPrague@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague >> >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tcpm mailing list >> tcpm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> aqm mailing list >> aqm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------010603060201010808070705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks,

Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague

Event details
Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016
Room: Quebracho B

Supporting materials / background:
https://riteproject.eu/dctth/
To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it works.
For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b
Or chat with us afterwards

Proposed Agenda:
 09:00
* Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob]
* Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob]
* Clarification Questions
09:15
* Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.:
  - what people are doing on parts of the problem:
  - planned work
  - evaluation work
  - interest in implementing
  - willingness to review
09:40
* Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead]
* Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame
   - should it be non-WG forming?
   - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem statement, etc.
   - which mailing list?
   - what name?
* Discussion / Q&A
09:55 end

Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor.

Cheers


Bob & Koen

On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote:
Folks,

We have a time and room for this Bar BoF:
Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016
Room: Quebracho B

We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room.
The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have to vacate early.

Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault.
I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically.


Bob

On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote:
Did this get scheduled?

--aaron

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to try to be helpful ...

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
John,

On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote:
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested implementers.

We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about L4S,
DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements.
    This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF.

    It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could benefit from
formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others.

    OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can reasonably
be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split among
existing WGs.

    However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely.
 OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that.
I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request.

Thanks,

Spencer
 
Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on Friday.


Bob


--
John Leslie <john@jlc.net>

_______________________________________________
tcpPrague mailing list
tcpPrague@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague

--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/



_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm




_______________________________________________
aqm mailing list
aqm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------010603060201010808070705-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 03:45:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C682312D105; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oCQBy0mWCunQ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33B1B12D09C; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [201.250.51.33] (port=25661 helo=[192.168.1.54]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ao7Qk-0002IU-Ci; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:44:55 +0100 To: tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , TCP Prague List , AQM IETF list References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> <57059F43.1050406@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <57063A22.2010709@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:44:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57059F43.1050406@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040709030009070906000508" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Cc: "tsv-ads@ietf.org" , "De Schepper, Koen \(Koen\)" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [aqm] [tcpm] [tsvwg] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:45:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040709030009070906000508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded to: https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion. Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested: *Aim of meeting:** ** To determine whether there is interest in working on this. * To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the meeting is not primarily a technical discussion) Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes. We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote attendees. Cheers Bob On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Folks, > > Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S / > DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague > > *Event details** > *Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 > Room: Quebracho B > > *Supporting materials / background:** > *https://riteproject.eu/dctth/ > To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a > working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how > it works. > For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF > Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b > Or chat with us afterwards > > *Proposed Agenda:** > ***09:00 > * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob] > * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob] > * Clarification Questions > 09:15 > * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.: > - what people are doing on parts of the problem: > - planned work > - evaluation work > - interest in implementing > - willingness to review > 09:40 > * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead] > * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame > - should it be non-WG forming? > - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem statement, > etc. > - which mailing list? > - what name? > * Discussion / Q&A > 09:55 end > > Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor. > > Cheers > > > Bob & Koen > > On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> Folks, >> >> We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: >> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 >> Room: Quebracho B >> >> We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. >> The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't >> have to vacate early. >> >> Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. >> I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically. >> >> >> Bob >> >> On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: >>> Did this get scheduled? >>> >>> --aaron >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF >>> wrote: >>> >>> Just to try to be helpful ... >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe >>> wrote: >>> >>> John, >>> >>> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: >>> >>> Bob Briscoe >> > wrote: >>> >>> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and >>> interested implementers. >>> >>> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos >>> Aires IETF, about L4S, >>> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. >>> >>> This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming >>> formal BoF. >>> >>> It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and >>> could benefit from >>> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and >>> others. >>> >>> OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG >>> charter can reasonably >>> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ >>> be split among >>> existing WGs. >>> >>> However this may turn out, I wish to participate >>> remotely. >>> >>> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. >>> >>> >>> I believe that happens at >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as >>> "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Spencer >>> >>> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline >>> on Friday. >>> >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Leslie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tcpPrague mailing list >>> tcpPrague@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tcpm mailing list >>> tcpm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> aqm mailing list >>> aqm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------040709030009070906000508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks,

Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded to:
https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof
Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion.

Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested:
Aim of meeting:
* To determine whether there is interest in working on this.
* To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the meeting is not primarily a technical discussion)

Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes.
We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote attendees.

Cheers


Bob


On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote:
Folks,

Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague

Event details
Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016
Room: Quebracho B

Supporting materials / background:
https://riteproject.eu/dctth/
To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it works.
For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b
Or chat with us afterwards

Proposed Agenda:
 09:00
* Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob]
* Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob]
* Clarification Questions
09:15
* Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.:
  - what people are doing on parts of the problem:
  - planned work
  - evaluation work
  - interest in implementing
  - willingness to review
09:40
* Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead]
* Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame
   - should it be non-WG forming?
   - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem statement, etc.
   - which mailing list?
   - what name?
* Discussion / Q&A
09:55 end

Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor.

Cheers


Bob & Koen

On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote:
Folks,

We have a time and room for this Bar BoF:
Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016
Room: Quebracho B

We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room.
The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have to vacate early.

Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault.
I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically.


Bob

On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote:
Did this get scheduled?

--aaron

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to try to be helpful ...

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
John,

On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote:
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested implementers.

We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about L4S,
DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements.
    This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF.

    It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could benefit from
formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others.

    OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can reasonably
be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split among
existing WGs.

    However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely.
 OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that.
I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request.

Thanks,

Spencer
 
Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on Friday.


Bob


--
John Leslie <john@jlc.net>

_______________________________________________
tcpPrague mailing list
tcpPrague@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague

--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/



_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm




_______________________________________________
aqm mailing list
aqm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
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X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:13:56 -0000 Thanks for sharing these in advance Bob. Slide 10 of the first deck is = priceless! > On 7 Apr 2016, at 07:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > Folks, >=20 > Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded = to: > https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof > Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion. >=20 > Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested: > Aim of meeting: > * To determine whether there is interest in working on this. > * To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the = meeting is not primarily a technical discussion) >=20 > Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes. > We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote = attendees. >=20 > Cheers >=20 >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 > On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> Folks, >>=20 >> Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S = / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague >>=20 >> Event details >> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART =3D 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr = 2016 >> Room: Quebracho B >>=20 >> Supporting materials / background: >> https://riteproject.eu/dctth/ >> To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a = working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it = works. >> For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF = Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b=20 >> Or chat with us afterwards >>=20 >> Proposed Agenda: >> 09:00 >> * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob] >> * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob] >> * Clarification Questions >> 09:15=20 >> * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.: >> - what people are doing on parts of the problem: >> - planned work >> - evaluation work >> - interest in implementing >> - willingness to review >> 09:40 >> * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead] >> * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame >> - should it be non-WG forming? >> - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem = statement, etc. >> - which mailing list? >> - what name? >> * Discussion / Q&A >> 09:55 end >>=20 >> Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor. >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >>=20 >> Bob & Koen >>=20 >> On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote: >>> Folks, >>>=20 >>> We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: >>> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (=3D 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 >>> Room: Quebracho B >>>=20 >>> We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. >>> The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't = have to vacate early. >>>=20 >>> Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. >>> I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this = specifically. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Bob >>>=20 >>> On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: >>>> Did this get scheduled? >>>>=20 >>>> --aaron >>>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >>>> Just to try to be helpful ... >>>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe = wrote: >>>> John, >>>>=20 >>>> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: >>>> Bob Briscoe wrote: >>>> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested = implementers. >>>>=20 >>>> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about = L4S, >>>> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. >>>> This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF. >>>>=20 >>>> It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could = benefit from >>>> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others. >>>>=20 >>>> OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can = reasonably >>>> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split = among >>>> existing WGs. >>>>=20 >>>> However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely. >>>> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. >>>>=20 >>>> I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. = If you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see = the request. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>>=20 >>>> Spencer >>>> =20 >>>> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on = Friday. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Bob >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> John Leslie >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tcpPrague mailing list >>>> tcpPrague@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> ________________________________________________________________ >>>> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tcpm mailing list >>>> tcpm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> aqm mailing list >>>>=20 >>>> aqm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe =20 >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>=20 >> --=20 >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoe =20 >> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > _______________________________________________ > aqm mailing list > aqm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm From nobody Thu Apr 7 04:55:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D2312D1A1 for ; 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Thu, 07 Apr 2016 04:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-b4b7.meeting.ietf.org ([2001:67c:370:176:f8a1:486e:3823:3cc1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m22sm3235005qki.30.2016.04.07.04.54.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Apr 2016 04:54:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Briscoe , tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , TCP Prague List , AQM IETF list References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> <57059F43.1050406@bobbriscoe.net> <57063A22.2010709@bobbriscoe.net> From: marcelo bagnulo braun Message-ID: <57064A88.5000108@it.uc3m.es> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:54:48 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57063A22.2010709@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "De Schepper, Koen \(Koen\)" , "tsv-ads@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [aqm] [tcpm] [tsvwg] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:55:05 -0000 Hi, Due to a conflict I wont be able to attend this morning. However, I wanted to state that I strongly support this work and that I am willing to contribute in items 8 and 9 of the todo list (in the slide 8 of the first slide deck) and happy to collaborate in 4). Also, I am gald to help preparing the BoF for berlin. Regards, marcelo El 07/04/16 a las 07:44, Bob Briscoe escribió: > Folks, > > Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded to: > https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof > Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion. > > Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested: > *Aim of meeting:** > ** To determine whether there is interest in working on this. > * To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the > meeting is not primarily a technical discussion) > > Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes. > We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote attendees. > > Cheers > > > Bob > > > On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S >> / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague >> >> *Event details** >> *Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 >> Room: Quebracho B >> >> *Supporting materials / background:** >> *https://riteproject.eu/dctth/ >> To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a >> working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how >> it works. >> For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF >> Journal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b >> Or chat with us afterwards >> >> *Proposed Agenda:** >> ***09:00 >> * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob] >> * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob] >> * Clarification Questions >> 09:15 >> * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.: >> - what people are doing on parts of the problem: >> - planned work >> - evaluation work >> - interest in implementing >> - willingness to review >> 09:40 >> * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead] >> * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame >> - should it be non-WG forming? >> - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem >> statement, etc. >> - which mailing list? >> - what name? >> * Discussion / Q&A >> 09:55 end >> >> Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor. >> >> Cheers >> >> >> Bob & Koen >> >> On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: >>> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 >>> Room: Quebracho B >>> >>> We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. >>> The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't >>> have to vacate early. >>> >>> Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. >>> I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically. >>> >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: >>>> Did this get scheduled? >>>> >>>> --aaron >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Just to try to be helpful ... >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> John, >>>> >>>> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: >>>> >>>> Bob Briscoe >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and >>>> interested implementers. >>>> >>>> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos >>>> Aires IETF, about L4S, >>>> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. >>>> >>>> This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming >>>> formal BoF. >>>> >>>> It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and >>>> could benefit from >>>> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and >>>> others. >>>> >>>> OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG >>>> charter can reasonably >>>> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ >>>> be split among >>>> existing WGs. >>>> >>>> However this may turn out, I wish to participate >>>> remotely. >>>> >>>> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe that happens at >>>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as >>>> "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Spencer >>>> >>>> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF >>>> deadline on Friday. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Leslie >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tcpPrague mailing list >>>> tcpPrague@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ________________________________________________________________ >>>> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tcpm mailing list >>>> tcpm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> aqm mailing list >>>> aqm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm >>> >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>> -- >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpPrague mailing list > tcpPrague@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague From nobody Thu Apr 7 05:03:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE8112D81C; 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Thu, 07 Apr 2016 05:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.70.198 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 05:03:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <72E3332E-9B19-4C69-9E74-48205E7D2F43@isoc.org> References: <56C71869.9080503@bobbriscoe.net> <20160219182359.GA74531@verdi> <56CACCB1.2080502@bobbriscoe.net> <5703A963.6090306@bobbriscoe.net> <57059F43.1050406@bobbriscoe.net> <57063A22.2010709@bobbriscoe.net> <72E3332E-9B19-4C69-9E74-48205E7D2F43@isoc.org> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:03:29 -0300 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: Matthew Ford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c077550d9fce1052fe3dde8 Archived-At: Cc: tcpm IETF list , tsvwg IETF list , Bob Briscoe , TCP Prague List , "tsv-ads@ietf.org" , AQM IETF list Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] [aqm] [tcpm] (Bar) BoF @IETF-95 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' (L4S, DualQ Coupled AQM, TCP Prague)? X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:03:34 -0000 --94eb2c077550d9fce1052fe3dde8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Note taking is happening here: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-95-l4s-barbof On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Matthew Ford wrote: > Thanks for sharing these in advance Bob. Slide 10 of the first deck is > priceless! > > > On 7 Apr 2016, at 07:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded to: > > https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof > > Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion. > > > > Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested: > > Aim of meeting: > > * To determine whether there is interest in working on this. > > * To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the > meeting is not primarily a technical discussion) > > > > Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes. > > We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote attendees. > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: > >> Folks, > >> > >> Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF on L4S / > DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague > >> > >> Event details > >> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART = 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 > >> Room: Quebracho B > >> > >> Supporting materials / background: > >> https://riteproject.eu/dctth/ > >> To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a > working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it > works. > >> For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF Journal > is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b > >> Or chat with us afterwards > >> > >> Proposed Agenda: > >> 09:00 > >> * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob] > >> * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob] > >> * Clarification Questions > >> 09:15 > >> * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.: > >> - what people are doing on parts of the problem: > >> - planned work > >> - evaluation work > >> - interest in implementing > >> - willingness to review > >> 09:40 > >> * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead] > >> * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame > >> - should it be non-WG forming? > >> - volunteers to help with organisation / writing problem statement, > etc. > >> - which mailing list? > >> - what name? > >> * Discussion / Q&A > >> 09:55 end > >> > >> Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> > >> Bob & Koen > >> > >> On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote: > >>> Folks, > >>> > >>> We have a time and room for this Bar BoF: > >>> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (= 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016 > >>> Room: Quebracho B > >>> > >>> We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that room. > >>> The room is not being used for the following session, so we don't have > to vacate early. > >>> > >>> Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault. > >>> I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about this specifically. > >>> > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote: > >>>> Did this get scheduled? > >>>> > >>>> --aaron > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Just to try to be helpful ... > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe > wrote: > >>>> John, > >>>> > >>>> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote: > >>>> Bob Briscoe wrote: > >>>> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and interested > implementers. > >>>> > >>>> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IETF, about > L4S, > >>>> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements. > >>>> This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-forming formal BoF. > >>>> > >>>> It describes work spanning at least three WGs; and could benefit > from > >>>> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and others. > >>>> > >>>> OTOH, it really isn't to the point where a WG charter can > reasonably > >>>> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be split among > >>>> existing WGs. > >>>> > >>>> However this may turn out, I wish to participate remotely. > >>>> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that. > >>>> > >>>> I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html. If > you put "TSV" in as "type of meeting", your happy TSV ADs would see the > request. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Spencer > >>>> > >>>> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadline on > Friday. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John Leslie > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> tcpPrague mailing list > >>>> tcpPrague@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>>> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> tcpm mailing list > >>>> tcpm@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> aqm mailing list > >>>> > >>>> aqm@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ________________________________________________________________ > >>> Bob Briscoe > >>> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > >> > >> -- > >> ________________________________________________________________ > >> Bob Briscoe > >> http://bobbriscoe.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > > aqm mailing list > > aqm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm > > --94eb2c077550d9fce1052fe3dde8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 8:13 AM, M= atthew Ford <ford@isoc.org> wrote:
Thanks for sharing these in advance Bob. Slide 10 of the first deck = is priceless!

> On 7 Apr 2016, at 07:44, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Some slides to frame the discussion at 9am this morning are uploaded t= o:
> https://riteproject.eu/dctth/#ietf-bar-bof
> Nonetheless, we want most of the time to be for discussion.
>
> Phil Eardley has agreed to chair the meeting. He has suggested:
> Aim of meeting:
> * To determine whether there is interest in working on this.
> * To work out how to get the IETF to work on these pieces (ie the meet= ing is not primarily a technical discussion)
>
> Aaron Falk has kindly agreed to take notes.
> We will need a volunteer for jabber scribe, as we have remote attendee= s.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 07/04/16 00:44, Bob Briscoe wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> Reminder, agenda & supporting materials below for the Bar BoF = on L4S / DualQ Coupled AQM / TCP Prague
>>
>> Event details
>> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 local time (ART =3D 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 A= pr 2016
>> Room: Quebracho B
>>
>> Supporting materials / background:
>> https://riteproject.eu/dctth/
>> To use the time effectively, it will be assumed that people have a= working knowledge of what the technology is, and a rough idea of how it wo= rks.
>> For those wanting an introduction, a useful 2-pager in the IETF Jo= urnal is linked from the above, plus videos of the demos etc.b
>> Or chat with us afterwards
>>
>> Proposed Agenda:
>> 09:00
>> * Note Well, Agenda Bashing [Bob]
>> * Introduction/Background (very brief) [Bob]
>> * Clarification Questions
>> 09:15
>> * Status updates [Koen to lead], e.g.:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- what people are doing on parts of the problem:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- planned work
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- evaluation work
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- interest in implementing
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- willingness to review
>> 09:40
>> * Build a standardisation roadmap [Bob to lead]
>> * Build a BoF for the Berlin time-frame
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - should it be non-WG forming?
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - volunteers to help with organisation / writing prob= lem statement, etc.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - which mailing list?
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - what name?
>> * Discussion / Q&A
>> 09:55 end
>>
>> Most time will be allowed for people to talk from the floor.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Bob & Koen
>>
>> On 05/04/16 13:02, Bob Briscoe wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> We have a time and room for this Bar BoF:
>>> Date/time: 09:00 - 10:00 ART (=3D 12-13:00 UTC) Thu 7 Apr 2016=
>>> Room: Quebracho B
>>>
>>> We have the regular IETF remote attendance facilities in that = room.
>>> The room is not being used for the following session, so we do= n't have to vacate early.
>>>
>>> Sorry for delay setting this up. My fault.
>>> I've bcc'd a few people who have been asking about thi= s specifically.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On 30/03/16 21:13, Aaron Falk wrote:
>>>> Did this get scheduled?
>>>>
>>>> --aaron
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = <spencerdawkins.ietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>>>> Just to try to be helpful ...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> On 19/02/16 18:23, John Leslie wrote:
>>>> Bob Briscoe <iet= f@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>>>> I'm cross-posting 'cos this impacts 3 IETF WGs and= interested implementers.
>>>>
>>>> We would like to propose a Bar BoF at the Buenos Aires IET= F, about L4S,
>>>> DualQ and solutions to the TCP Prague Requirements.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This feels like it belongs as a non-WG-= forming formal BoF.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It describes work spanning at least thr= ee WGs; and could benefit from
>>>> formal scheduling to avoid conflicts with those WGs and ot= hers.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OTOH, it really isn't to the point = where a WG charter can reasonably
>>>> be drafted. First we must decide whether the work _can_ be= split among
>>>> existing WGs.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However this may turn out, I wish to pa= rticipate remotely.
>>>> OK, we'll see if the secretariat can help us with that= .
>>>>
>>>> I believe that happens at http://www.ietf.org= /meeting/amreq.html. If you put "TSV" in as "type of mee= ting", your happy TSV ADs would see the request.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Spencer
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately we ran out of time for the formal BoF deadli= ne on Friday.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Leslie <john@jlc.n= et>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> tcpPrague mailing list
>>>> tcpPrague@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/tcpprague
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> __________________________________________________________= ______
>>>> Bob Briscoe=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://bob= briscoe.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> tcpm mailing list
>>>> tcpm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcp= m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> aqm mailing list
>>>>
>>>> aqm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm=
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ______________________________________________________________= __
>>> Bob Briscoe
>>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
>>
>> --
>> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoe
>> http://bobbriscoe.net/
> _______________________________________________
> aqm mailing list
> aqm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm


--94eb2c077550d9fce1052fe3dde8-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 06:25:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE3A12D0A2 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 06:25:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THf2_QcFwah2 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 06:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 091A212D840 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 06:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f86d00000400a-ba-57065fa94ffb Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 47.D3.16394.9AF56075; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.173]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:24:24 +0200 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "tcpprague@ietf.org" , "Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net)" , "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" Thread-Topic: BoF comments Thread-Index: AdGQzM8d5pZ8c6cwRf6INAKepeS6Vw== Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:24:23 +0000 Message-ID: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.19] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01D190E1.9082FD40" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7lu6qeLZwgxd3uS2OPlzAanH/7BtW i6kNB1kcmD1e3b/A6rFkyU8mj7u3LjEFMEdx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZfR9Ziv4HFYx+a1QA+OF wC5GTg4JAROJk1/amSBsMYkL99azdTFycQgJHGGU6NlwiQnCWcwo8f/CZlaQKjYBG4mVh74z giREBJYzSjx7PZEdJMEsYCXx5fhfZhBbWEBUomv3HLAGEQEpiZcfeqBsPYnziw+xgdgsAioS B2ctZQGxeQV8JZYsbgWrYRSQlbj//R4LxExxiVtP5kOdJyLx8OJpNghbVOLl43+sELaiRPvT BkaI+l5Gif2LAiBmCkqcnPmEZQKj8Cwko2YhKZuFpAwibiBx/1AHK4StLbFs4WtmCNtaYsav g2wQtqLElO6H7BC2qcTrox8ZFzByrGIULU4tTspNNzLWSy3KTC4uzs/Ty0st2cQIjLWDW36r 7mC8/MbxEKMAB6MSD6/CftZwIdbEsuLK3EOMKkBzHm1YfYFRiiUvPy9VSYT3cDhbuBBvSmJl VWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXHe7Mh/YUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQbGJPaHb7Ue3IteyH2p cr9FXujmk2wNpXP3318pm24owKWja2tmHGkgqalx1GL5yoXc+yfqc3dybqv9dqec8fK6nKy0 pRW+QfpPJ+1qj5klc/vkm+nHWP3vmK5erxZWrmqw07sz/91kjQUSnHLxFtOOb54Qs2tNUcjb 2XN/ivdYLPDN+cH1+K67EktxRqKhFnNRcSIAB0OItb0CAAA= Archived-At: Cc: Ingemar Johansson S Subject: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 13:25:07 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01D190E1.9082FD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. I = have not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ solution = to it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals ideas from TCP. This work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies.=20 The challenges are both technical and political. Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to reach = low latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against the need to = have enough bits to transmit, given that the transport block sizes can change = a lot. The rapid change in resource allocation is also a challenge as transport protocols at the endpoints are not fast enough to track these, = the effect of this is that the queuing delay will spike even though it is targeted to a low level. There could be solutions to this but these solutions cannot be devised within a IETF framework, rather it needs to = be handled with in the SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if = subject to standardization at all). Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. Still despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to = somehow be driven in 3GPP as well. That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in general I don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) and = ECT(1) /Ingemar =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ingemar Johansson M.Sc.=20 Master Researcher Ericsson AB Wireless Access Networks Labratoriegr=E4nd 11 971 28, Lule=E5, Sweden Phone +46-1071 43042 SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com www.ericsson.com This report, by it=B4s very length,=20 defends itself against the risk of being read Winston Churchill =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01D190E1.9082FD40 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVYzCCAyAw 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Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRG_8Tj_8x1H for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 06:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out5.uio.no (mail-out5.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED82512D944 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 06:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by mail-out5.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1aoA86-0002dw-HW; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:37:50 +0200 Received: from dhcp-a070.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.160.112]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1aoA85-0007P1-FR; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:37:50 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:37:42 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> To: Ingemar Johansson S X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 4 msgs/h 1 sum rcpts/h 6 sum msgs/h 1 total rcpts 40171 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: B60A400D778C814FE30CA51ADC0CF9A445BB7463 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 31.133.160.112 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Cc: "Bob Briscoe \(ietf@bobbriscoe.net\)" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" , "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 13:37:58 -0000 Hi Ingemar, all, > On 7. apr. 2016, at 10.24, Ingemar Johansson S = wrote: >=20 > I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. I = have > not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. >=20 > Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ = solution to > it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals ideas from TCP. = This > work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies.=20 I=E2=80=99m not sure we=E2=80=99d even need to tweak SCReAM or any other = delay-based mechanism when we=E2=80=99re discussing using instantaneous = queue marking with ECN? Scalable TCP should give you low latency and a smooth rate, what else = can you wish for? (except maybe it shouldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9CTCP=E2=80=9D per se for = RMCAT=E2=80=99s purposes, you neither need nor want 100% reliability = there). > The challenges are both technical and political. > Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to = reach low > latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against the need to = have > enough bits to transmit, given that the transport block sizes can = change a > lot. The rapid change in resource allocation is also a challenge as > transport protocols at the endpoints are not fast enough to track = these, the > effect of this is that the queuing delay will spike even though it is > targeted to a low level. There could be solutions to this but these > solutions cannot be devised within a IETF framework, rather it needs = to be > handled with in the SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if = subject > to standardization at all). >=20 > Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is > standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. Still > despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to = somehow > be driven in 3GPP as well. Towards ECN deployment, I believe that a simple easy-to-install solution = that shows people that ECN can have benefits is a good first step: draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 http://heim.ifi.uio.no/michawe/research/publications/CAIA-TR-150710A.pdf In short, this simply tweaks the sender to react differently in response = to an ECN signal than in response to packet loss (recognizing that a = CE-mark was probably produced by a smaller-than-BDP queue). The result = is that you can have short queues without losing throughput. The point = of this is to be simple: it doesn=E2=80=99t change the ECN definition, = the AQM behavior, the receiver behavior - just the sender-side = congestion control. > That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in general = I > don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) and = ECT(1) =E2=80=A6 and the proposal I mentioned above uses ECT(0), which is why = it wouldn=E2=80=99t get in the way of the better =E2=80=9Cgrand = solution=E2=80=9D here (Scalable TCP + Dual Queue + Accurate ECN = feedback), yet could help convince people that ECN is good. Cheers, Michael From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:30:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69DF12D54F for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:30:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y9oye-OLpGpp for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 876B712D54E for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id f198so34847137wme.0 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:30:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wSB+vZqL2MvDUwAIIR4R7x8DFTJ3pLiUlhTqGQ44aFI=; b=bn4ODAgxjVIz/932OHaXCWk2b8EFzPq3VYRwNg5fCunS36c8Tq38GPqIupOwk/AG1y fY7suDH4NijenZ0vT8wO9Vps0G0GuRXptnTEGjsdQeFUqNoFie0aSK0vkHadTvMtOXhA mdK2q9HIKTS2YihPCuoXZmU/a0Nl7UTRUEEyTycjsW1euz61CbBoE7KQbMQWg5PR+4fh qHai78p4yiIgDCQhhiMgVbN8XfvjOVsXynMtrVebCPGf5rd8vHgHfFh20xXE40LEwg9z c0yTuC+tBinFaPvIDlVtxdhrhLq0py/cDbjxCvlAsmejM6vmicn3kvgQza9sD9pMDYyj 8/zg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wSB+vZqL2MvDUwAIIR4R7x8DFTJ3pLiUlhTqGQ44aFI=; b=ixH/XAy28aqtWNUPvNFXxMPcyg/5B8WB9UWVEV+IEfowvcyLCKILFDzs4XKvQlo4Uw F3enQ+aRVrOrxnetN0RPc0rjxuBdtS0DT3WbRz+qu9uE7sKsezRxf75ZWtWJcPW7yt0h TYUdi+eDmIG9m2CTUvGB2u5R0dVGKBZJIvW1Vhrf2QAUBoX9yQRNRlFeT5giRHlcUtbX rjzO8PybBy+x5Hw4rmX8YndLmW0Y1hM+V9+WA+rYXEfxvtCDydvxahFRS+s2BqMaoOuN X9wWZttaZ0GmXa3vLEb9LoHYztAJ3lqDRguysPBUbHdyiivCj0BgPfH7iHwzuq64TZJT M0SA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJILsulZRCOLQ+sua6mM66pjPq6fpHHpNwwdoZabAxnfK4hSJiplleRnxMb+iPAZuYcou/AR9YXnNT/QX/S2 X-Received: by 10.28.213.66 with SMTP id m63mr31767890wmg.2.1460050215905; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:30:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.222.131 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> From: Yuchung Cheng Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ingemar Johansson S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "Bob Briscoe \(ietf@bobbriscoe.net\)" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" , "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:30:20 -0000 On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: > > I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. I hav= e > not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. > > Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ solution = to > it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals ideas from TCP. This > work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies. > > The challenges are both technical and political. > Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to reach = low > latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against the need to hav= e > enough bits to transmit, given that the transport block sizes can change = a > lot. The rapid change in resource allocation is also a challenge as > transport protocols at the endpoints are not fast enough to track these, = the > effect of this is that the queuing delay will spike even though it is > targeted to a low level. There could be solutions to this but these > solutions cannot be devised within a IETF framework, rather it needs to b= e > handled with in the SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if subje= ct > to standardization at all). Could you provide more details or pointers on that. Thanks. > > Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is > standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. Still > despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to some= how > be driven in 3GPP as well. > > That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in general I > don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) and ECT(= 1) > > /Ingemar > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. > Master Researcher > > Ericsson AB > Wireless Access Networks > Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11 > 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden > Phone +46-1071 43042 > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com > www.ericsson.com > > This report, by it=C2=B4s very length, > defends itself against the risk of being read > Winston Churchill > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > _______________________________________________ > tcpPrague mailing list > tcpPrague@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague > From nobody Fri Apr 8 06:46:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119E512D0FF for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKQpE6wKtrCT for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 06:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4256312D8D4 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 06:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712umx4.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.245.210.45]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id C41824124ED0A; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:46:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by fr712umx4.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO-o) with ESMTP id u38Dk9Tm030758 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:46:09 GMT Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id u38DjxBS024480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:46:08 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA05.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.230]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:46:06 +0200 From: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE)" To: EXT Michael Welzl , Ingemar Johansson S Thread-Topic: [tcpPrague] BoF comments Thread-Index: AdGQzM8d5pZ8c6cwRf6INAKepeS6V///6iwA//5VoxA= Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:46:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Bob Briscoe \(ietf@bobbriscoe.net\)" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:46:17 -0000 SGkgTWljaGFlbCwgSW5nZW1hciwNCg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0N Cj4gRnJvbTogRVhUIE1pY2hhZWwgV2VsemwgW21haWx0bzptaWNoYXdlQGlmaS51aW8ubm9dDQo+ IFNlbnQ6IGRvbmRlcmRhZyA3IGFwcmlsIDIwMTYgMTU6MzgNCj4gVG86IEluZ2VtYXIgSm9oYW5z c29uIFMNCj4gQ2M6IHRjcHByYWd1ZUBpZXRmLm9yZzsgQm9iIEJyaXNjb2UgKGlldGZAYm9iYnJp c2NvZS5uZXQpOyBEZSBTY2hlcHBlciwNCj4gS29lbiAoTm9raWEgLSBCRSkNCj4gU3ViamVjdDog UmU6IFt0Y3BQcmFndWVdIEJvRiBjb21tZW50cw0KPiANCj4gSGkgSW5nZW1hciwgYWxsLA0KPiAN Cj4gDQo+ID4gT24gNy4gYXByLiAyMDE2LCBhdCAxMC4yNCwgSW5nZW1hciBKb2hhbnNzb24gUw0K PiA8aW5nZW1hci5zLmpvaGFuc3NvbkBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSSBh bSBxdWl0ZSBwb3NpdGl2ZSB0byB0aGUgJ1VsdHJhLUxvdyBRdWV1aW5nIERlbGF5IGZvciBBbGwn IGlkZWFzLiBJDQo+IGhhdmUNCj4gPiBub3QgZnVsbHkgZ3Jhc3BlZCB0aGUgQVFNIGlkZWFzIGJ1 dCBub25ldGhlbGVzcy4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IERpcmVjdCBxdWVzdGlvbiAod2hpY2ggSSBtaXNzZWQp 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boundary="_000_BF6B00CC65FD2D45A326E74492B2C19FB764EC19FR711WXCHMBA05z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tcpprague@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] 3GPP references to ECN X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." 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--_000_BF6B00CC65FD2D45A326E74492B2C19FB764EC19FR711WXCHMBA05z_-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 10:16:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26BC12D8DC; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbGuwo6LdnUt; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E98812D0B9; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79c06d000005960-1b-5707e7729cc1 Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.51]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 92.83.22880.277E7075; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.173]) by ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:16:26 +0200 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" , "ietf@bobbriscoe.net" , "carlberg@g11.org.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] 3GPP references to ECN Thread-Index: AQHRkbRA4dAkbUNhaUWyswQuveTtcp+ATnBQ Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:16:25 +0000 Message-ID: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC2EC1@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC2347@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <5707AFE0.5080200@bobbriscoe.net> 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3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivDmR/8KEBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjMr63xYuP2es IrzEks31asGKwzvX+fV9dy2Z+Pl0WJ13UF9w054XVSZ5bOcZji0Jebz/GeMDyUXftm1jWrYk UKp7t/Gcdd53whn/sh4RfVjtabrKLeQFm7J1afjayKJbl0/UanZWPftyRWj7+aLrdV+Ezy80 6lqd8b14EXtCX+dNYXf5StnZc5VYijMSDbWYi4oTAZiyRkEMAwAA Archived-At: Cc: Ingemar Johansson S , "tcpprague@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] 3GPP references to ECN X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:16:45 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_053D_01D191CB.2455DAD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_053E_01D191CB.2455DAD0" ------=_NextPart_001_053E_01D191CB.2455DAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =20 My comments inline /Ingemar =20 From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE) [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia.com] = Sent: den 8 april 2016 18:32 To: EXT Bob Briscoe; Ingemar Johansson S; carlberg@g11.org.uk; tsvwg = IETF list Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] 3GPP references to ECN =20 Hi all, =20 I just proposed noticed your discussion here, which could be of interest = on trying DCTCP on mobile networks: =20 > Also, my understanding is that the objective of some vendors/carriers = was to rely on a step-like function in having the codec (eg, AMR-WB) = reduce its load on receipt of ECN-CE instead of relying on a more = elaborate congestion control algorithm. I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing = Ingemar for a sanity check (on what I wrote, versus my current state of = mind :-) [IJ] Yes, I am partly guilty to this. I guess it is good enough for = bitrates below ~30kbps. But I am quite confident today that it = won=E2=80=99t work well at video bitrates or higher audio bitrates, that = is why I try to pitch the SCReAM algorithm. [BB] So, are you confirming definitely that the intent was for on-off = marking at the eNodeB (even tho it doesn't go as far as saying that, it = sounds as if that was in the mind of the writer)? [IJ] No I would not take it that far, parts of the text in 36.300 may = imply this (1st para in section 11.6), but this is actually only a = discussion text. The normative text is the 2nd para. My interpretation = is that ECN marking should be something according to RFC7567, problem is = however that ECN is not implemented.=20 Is this step function the right one to run a DCTCP like congestion = control on it? Is it a step that is not smoothed and shallow enough? Is = there equipment that implements this step, and can we do some tests = using DCTCP on this? [IJ] Currently I cannot answer the question, if ECN is implemented I = would believe that it would be more RFC3168-ish at least initially. =20 Regards, Koen. =20 =20 From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Bob Briscoe Sent: vrijdag 8 april 2016 15:19 To: Ingemar Johansson S; carlberg@g11.org.uk; tsvwg IETF list Subject: Re: [tsvwg] 3GPP references to ECN =20 Ingemar, Cc'ing the list as agreed... On 08/04/16 08:29, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: Hi =20 A few comments inline below Will listen in on the TSVWG session ASAP. =20 /Ingemar =20 From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk]=20 Sent: den 7 april 2016 21:06 To: Bob Briscoe Cc: Ingemar Johansson S Subject: 3GPP references to ECN =20 Bob =20 I very much liked your 3GPP references slide in the TSVWG presentation. = The one thing, though, that reminded me of a concern I had with = 3GPP=E2=80=99s support for ECN centers in an obscure sentence in = TS.29.162, end of Section 10.2.13.2 Incoming SDP offer with ECN, which = states: =20 "The TrGW should not send RTCP XR ECN summary = reports.=E2=80=9D =20 This departs from RFC-6679, and I think the motivation stems from a = concern by IMS vendors that the rate of feedback would be excessive. I = agree that the RFC will clearly add more control traffic, but = I=E2=80=99m not in agreement that it is excessive. =20 [IJ] I don=E2=80=99t have the full understanding of what happens in = 3GPP, I recall that there was a lot of discussion of the amount of = overhead that RTCP gives. But I never had any real influence in this = area. [BB] I can add Ken's point to the liaison, but if the 3GPP worded it the = way it did in full knowledge of what was in the IETF RFC, and you tried = to influence it at the time, but failed, that's a different problem from = misunderstanding or lack of clarity between SDOs. We'll see what others = think. =20 =20 I bring this up in your references slide, you state that the L4-7 is = =E2=80=9Cfully compatible with EC-in-RTP=E2=80=9D, which it is not. =20 =20 Also, my understanding is that the objective of some vendors/carriers = was to rely on a step-like function in having the codec (eg, AMR-WB) = reduce its load on receipt of ECN-CE instead of relying on a more = elaborate congestion control algorithm. I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing = Ingemar for a sanity check (on what I wrote, versus my current state of = mind :-) [IJ] Yes, I am partly guilty to this. I guess it is good enough for = bitrates below ~30kbps. But I am quite confident today that it = won=E2=80=99t work well at video bitrates or higher audio bitrates, that = is why I try to pitch the SCReAM algorithm. [BB] So, are you confirming definitely that the intent was for on-off = marking at the eNodeB (even tho it doesn't go as far as saying that, it = sounds as if that was in the mind of the writer)? Have you seen the problem John K has pointed out (in our slides) where = the marking might either come from an AQM in a non-3GPP network or = on-off marking in the 3GPP network. So all codecs have to interpret both = a low level of random marking (as in AQM) and toggling between a = constant 100% level of marking and 0%, even tho they both occur under = the same conditions and they don't know where the marking is coming = from.=20 Now that we have pointed this discrepancy out, do you think it's best = that 3GPP adds some text to these specs to refer to (say) the recent = IETF AQM Recommendations for the marking behaviour [RFC7567]. Does that = create an incremental deployment problem in 3GPP? Cheers Bob=20 =20 cheers, =20 -ken =20 =20 --=20 ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ ------=_NextPart_001_053E_01D191CB.2455DAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

My comments inline

/Ingemar

 

From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE) [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia.com] =
Sent: den 8 april 2016 18:32
To: EXT Bob Briscoe; = Ingemar Johansson S; carlberg@g11.org.uk; tsvwg IETF list
Cc: = tcpprague@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] 3GPP = references to ECN

 

Hi  all,

 

I just proposed noticed your discussion here, which could be of = interest on trying DCTCP on mobile networks:

 

> Also, my = understanding is that the objective of some vendors/carriers was to rely = on a step-like function in having the codec (eg, AMR-WB) reduce its load = on receipt of ECN-CE instead of relying on a more elaborate congestion = control algorithm.  I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing Ingemar for a sanity = check (on what I wrote, versus my current state of mind = :-)

[IJ] Yes, I am partly guilty to this. I guess it is good enough for = bitrates below ~30kbps. But I am quite confident today that it = won=E2=80=99t work well at video bitrates or higher audio bitrates, that = is why I try to pitch the SCReAM algorithm.

[BB] So, are you = confirming definitely that the intent was for on-off marking at the = eNodeB (even tho it doesn't go as far as saying that, it sounds as if = that was in the mind of the writer)?

[IJ] No I would=C2=A0 not take it that far, parts of the text in = 36.300 may imply this (1st para in section 11.6), but this is = actually only a discussion text. The normative text is the = 2nd para. My interpretation is that ECN marking should be = something according to RFC7567, problem is however that ECN is not = implemented.

Is this step function the right one to run a DCTCP like congestion = control on it? Is it a step that is not smoothed and shallow enough? Is = there equipment that implements this step, and can we do some tests = using DCTCP on this?

[IJ] Currently I cannot answer the question, if ECN is implemented I = would believe that it would be more RFC3168-ish at least = initially.

 

Regards,

Koen.

 

 

From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of EXT Bob Briscoe
Sent: vrijdag 8 april = 2016 15:19
To: Ingemar Johansson S; carlberg@g11.org.uk; tsvwg IETF = list
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] 3GPP references to = ECN

 

Ingemar,

Cc'ing = the list as agreed...

On 08/04/16 08:29, Ingemar = Johansson S wrote:

Hi

 

A few comments inline below

Will listen in on the TSVWG session ASAP.

 

/Ingemar

 

From:= ken = carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] =
Sent: den 7 april 2016 21:06
To: Bob = Briscoe
Cc: Ingemar Johansson S
Subject: 3GPP = references to ECN

 

Bob

 

I very much liked your 3GPP = references slide in the TSVWG presentation.  The one thing, though, = that reminded me of a concern I had with 3GPP=E2=80=99s support for ECN = centers in an obscure sentence in TS.29.162, end of = Section 10.2.13.2 Incoming SDP offer with ECN, which states:

 

          = "The TrGW should not = send RTCP XR ECN summary = reports.=E2=80=9D

 

This departs from RFC-6679, and I = think the motivation stems from a concern by IMS vendors that the rate = of feedback would be excessive.  I agree that the RFC will clearly = add more control traffic, but I=E2=80=99m not in agreement that it is = excessive.  

[IJ] I don=E2=80=99t have the full understanding of what happens in = 3GPP, I recall that there was a lot of discussion of the amount of = overhead that RTCP gives. But I never had any real influence in this = area.

[BB] = I can add Ken's point to the liaison, but if the 3GPP worded it the way = it did in full knowledge of what was in the IETF RFC, and you tried to = influence it at the time, but failed, that's a different problem from = misunderstanding or lack of clarity between SDOs. We'll see what others = think.

 

 

I bring this up in your references = slide, you state that the L4-7 is =E2=80=9Cfully compatible with = EC-in-RTP=E2=80=9D, which it is not. =  

 

Also, my understanding is that the = objective of some vendors/carriers was to rely on a step-like function = in having the codec (eg, AMR-WB) reduce its load on receipt of ECN-CE = instead of relying on a more elaborate congestion control algorithm. =  I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing Ingemar for a sanity check (on what I = wrote, versus my current state of mind :-)

[IJ] Yes, I am partly guilty to this. I guess it is good enough for = bitrates below ~30kbps. But I am quite confident today that it = won=E2=80=99t work well at video bitrates or higher audio bitrates, that = is why I try to pitch the SCReAM algorithm.

[BB] So, are you confirming = definitely that the intent was for on-off marking at the eNodeB (even = tho it doesn't go as far as saying that, it sounds as if that was in the = mind of the writer)?

Have you seen the problem John K has pointed = out (in our slides) where the marking might either come from an AQM in a = non-3GPP network or on-off marking in the 3GPP network. So all codecs = have to interpret both a low level of random marking (as in AQM) and = toggling between a constant 100% level of marking and 0%, even tho they = both occur under the same conditions and they don't know where the = marking is coming from.

Now that we have pointed this = discrepancy out, do you think it's best that 3GPP adds some text to = these specs to refer to (say) the recent IETF AQM Recommendations for = the marking behaviour [RFC7567]. Does that create an incremental = deployment problem in 3GPP?

Cheers



Bob =

 

cheers,

 

-ken

 

 

-- =

____________________________________________________________=
____
Bob =
Briscoe           =
            &=
nbsp;       http://bobbriscoe.net/
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sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 93.C1.23401.17408075; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:20:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.173]) by ESESSHC018.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:19:24 +0200 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "ycheng@google.com" Thread-Topic: [tcpPrague] BoF comments Thread-Index: AdGQzM8d5pZ8c6cwRf6INAKepeS6VwAFXuIAADoUpkA= Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:19:23 +0000 Message-ID: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC2FE6@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0562_01D191DC.521BC7C0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7h24RC0e4QcMSboujDxewWtw/+4bV YmrDQRaLL4+vsjmweLy6f4HVY8GmUo8lS34yedy9dYkpgCWKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK6Px5Qbm gsnxFcvXPmFsYPwa3sXIySEhYCKx5v5HFghbTOLCvfVsXYxcHEICRxgl7s+/xA7hLGaUOHr/ KitIFZuAjcTKQ98ZQWwRAW2Jxz2fwTqYBWYySnzrvsYMkhAWUJW41d7OClGkJvHq/h12CNtK 4s2JBUwgNouAisTmIyfA4rwCvhJdJ9azQmybwihxoPsSWDOnQKDE3xnnwYYyCshK3P9+D+xW ZgFxiVtP5jNB3C0i8fDiaTYIW1Ti5eN/rBC2ksTaw9tZIK7rZZRoOtHDCLFNUOLkzCcsExhF ZyGZNQtZ3SwkdRBF2hJPbz6Fs5ctfM0MYVtLzPh1kA3CVpSY0v2QHcI2lXh99CPjAkaOVYyi xanFxbnpRkZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiBcXtwy2+rHYwHnzseYhTgYFTi4V0gwB4uxJpYVlyZ e4hRBWjOow2rLzBKseTl56UqifAKM3OEC/GmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREufNifwXJiSQ nliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamBs8TgmWqKy2/Owe7aKx6sn8yYssnSQXhqXXbPv7Z+DS7r/nV5q K2VSl++g/XC13Kns6/EO/opThPvSZmR6rqnfd1Rki79Knbie6OwrTxaZ6HvsOpSvqsflLbE/ q86XQbGFpb7FxF3ymZ4fc5uVgNnEVatbNAxqv2w53Ryz0ET/aXR8/obZsUosxRmJhlrMRcWJ ALJ143vjAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "ietf@bobbriscoe.net" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" , "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 19:20:23 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0562_01D191DC.521BC7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yuchung I elaborate a bit on the resource allocation issue in the CC for 4G and = 5G draft (section 2.3). Cannot currently give any details or pointers = to possible solutions as I don't know of any sofar however.=20 Regards /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: Yuchung Cheng [mailto:ycheng@google.com] > Sent: den 7 april 2016 19:30 > To: Ingemar Johansson S > Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org; Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net); > koen.de_schepper@nokia.com > Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments >=20 > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Ingemar Johansson S > wrote: > > > > I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. = I > > have not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. > > > > Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ > > solution to it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals = ideas > > from TCP. This work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies. > > > > The challenges are both technical and political. > > Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to > > reach low latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against > > the need to have enough bits to transmit, given that the transport > > block sizes can change a lot. The rapid change in resource = allocation > > is also a challenge as transport protocols at the endpoints are not > > fast enough to track these, the effect of this is that the queuing > > delay will spike even though it is targeted to a low level. There > > could be solutions to this but these solutions cannot be devised > > within a IETF framework, rather it needs to be handled with in the > > SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if subject to = standardization > at all). > Could you provide more details or pointers on that. Thanks. >=20 >=20 > > > > Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is > > standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. = Still > > despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to > > somehow be driven in 3GPP as well. > > > > That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in = general > > I don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) = and > > ECT(1) > > > > /Ingemar > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. > > Master Researcher > > > > Ericsson AB > > Wireless Access Networks > > Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11 > > 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden > > Phone +46-1071 43042 > > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 > > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com > > www.ericsson.com > > > > This report, by it=C2=B4s very length, defends itself = against > > the risk of being read > > Winston Churchill > > = 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------=_NextPart_000_0562_01D191DC.521BC7C0-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 00:23:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A447C12E7FF for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9j4ChpBqaBF2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 192D212E7FC for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79246d00000788a-ef-570b5106c92d Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.27]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5B.21.30858.6015B075; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:23:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.173]) by ESESSHC003.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:23:50 +0200 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" , "michawe@ifi.uio.no" Thread-Topic: [tcpPrague] BoF comments Thread-Index: AdGQzM8d5pZ8c6cwRf6INAKepeS6V///6iwA//5VoxD/+FZXgA== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:23:49 +0000 Message-ID: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC4082@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02F5_01D193D3.DB38CB90" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrLIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7tC57IHe4wZcNPBZHHy5gtbh/9g2r xY+zO1ktpjYcZHFg8Xh1/wKrx5IlP5k8Vq9+yOxx99YlpgCWKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6M7l9W BX31Fe87kxoYfxV0MXJySAiYSOxr3swOYYtJXLi3nq2LkYtDSOAIo8Sms4fBEkICSxglzq80 AbHZBGwkVh76zghiiwhkSZz6384M0sAsMIVR4sbfHWAJYQFViVvt7awQRWoSr+7fYYewnSRW rfjM0sXIwcECVLPwVBVImFfAV2LehxUsEIuvMEqs7L7CBJLgFIiVWLVsC9gcRgFZifvf77GA 2MwC4hK3nsxngrhaROLhxdNsELaoxMvH/1ghbEWJnWdhjutllJi75zAzxDZBiZMzn7BMYBSd hWTWLGR1s5DUQRRpS/Q+bGWEsZctfM0MYVtLzPh1kA3CVpSY0v2QHcI2lXh99CPjAkaOVYyi xanFSbnpRkZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiBEXtwy2+DHYwvnzseYhTgYFTi4VVg5Q4XYk0sK67M PcSoAjTn0YbVFxilWPLy81KVRHiNPIDSvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEebMj/4UJCaQn lqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGCNOL3KP6DQJTV0Rxan4ioXZgreqO0t0yrtbuWdXMexzusN1LP1h SjbDWnnl2wc+Hfu2/m6Exq682iWrWozXxq6cc36T6PLv+yJ0CwPuzFskVbDo16U4juUzPJUl dq3O7zxzbBPve7Wrc3uOGOel3XTiN278t7pYYH/f/317PmT/f7zqmY5c1RElluKMREMt5qLi RACwBZBj4AIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Ingemar Johansson S , "ietf@bobbriscoe.net" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:23:55 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_02F5_01D193D3.DB38CB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Koen , Michael + others See comments inline [IJ] /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE) > [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia.com] > Sent: den 8 april 2016 15:46 > To: EXT Michael Welzl; Ingemar Johansson S > Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org; Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net) > Subject: RE: [tcpPrague] BoF comments >=20 > Hi Michael, Ingemar, >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: EXT Michael Welzl [mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no] > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2016 15:38 > > To: Ingemar Johansson S > > Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org; Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net); De > > Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE) > > Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments > > > > Hi Ingemar, all, > > > > > > > On 7. apr. 2016, at 10.24, Ingemar Johansson S > > wrote: > > > > > > I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' = ideas. > > > I > > have > > > not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. > > > > > > Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ > > solution to > > > it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals ideas from = TCP. > > This > > > work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies. > > > > I=E2=80=99m not sure we=E2=80=99d even need to tweak SCReAM or any = other delay-based > > mechanism when we=E2=80=99re discussing using instantaneous queue = marking > with > > ECN? > > Scalable TCP should give you low latency and a smooth rate, what = else > > can you wish for? > > (except maybe it shouldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9CTCP=E2=80=9D per se = for RMCAT=E2=80=99s purposes, you > > neither need nor want 100% reliability there). >=20 >=20 > It has been a while that I had a look at the RMCAT congestion = controls, but I > think they are good candidates to explore the L4S capabilities. As far = as I > understood they also respond to latency, so as long as the latency is = not > increased, they can respond scalable and preferably RTT independent to = the > marking. If latency is increasing, they can assume a classic = ECN-marker is in > place (that does not know the difference between ect(0) and ect(1)), = and > respond more drastically, like they would respond to drop. But most > probably they will respond already early to the latency, avoiding high = ECN > marking probabilities under high RTTs? >=20 > For testing purposes, you could run a SCReAM or NADA flow on an > immediate (DCTCP configured RED with ECN and shallow step) AQM. [IJ] You may want to take a look at section A.5 in = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-scream-cc-03) The Q-bit = semantics is much inspired by DCTCP, the intention is here to force down = the bitrate of a stream that is suspected to take a too large share of a = common bottleneck. It is quite easy to add a similar DCTCP like = congestion window modification function, what has so far prevented more = experiments with ECN (and L4S) is that it is a lack of (well documented) = support for ECN in UDP sockets.=20 ECN in general has been tried out in our system simulators, the results = are however poorly documented, with traditional RFC3168 style ECN = marking it does not good much of an improvement in latency as SCReAM = already tries to keep latency low as is, the benefit instead comes with = less packet drops and that is a yuuuge benefit for Video as = retransmissions then become more rare. Also complicated cases with = competing TCP traffic are also more efficiently solved with ECN support. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > > > > The challenges are both technical and political. > > > Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to > > reach low > > > latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against the need > > > to > > have > > > enough bits to transmit, given that the transport block sizes can > > change a > > > lot. The rapid change in resource allocation is also a challenge = as > > > transport protocols at the endpoints are not fast enough to track > > these, the > > > effect of this is that the queuing delay will spike even though it > > > is targeted to a low level. >=20 > You could do the tests using DCTCP on a varying throughput link, = configured > with an immediate shallow threshold ECN AQM to get an idea of its > capabilities, compared to what is typically configured today with = Cubic and > CTCP. I forgot to mention that we also plan to do these tests, but it = would be > good to see independent results and discussions on the limitations = (range of > RTTs where we can use L4S), and improvements we can do on DCTCP to > better support L4S. >=20 > The good thing is that all building blocks are currently available to = test (use in > confined partition) L4Sv0.1 (DCTCP, step-ECN-RED). >=20 > You need DualQ only if you want to test L4S and Classic competing = flows. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > There could be solutions to this but these solutions cannot be > > > devised within a IETF framework, rather it needs > > to be > > > handled with in the SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions = (if > > subject > > > to standardization at all). > > > > > > Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is > > > standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. > > > Still despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio > > > needs to > > somehow > > > be driven in 3GPP as well. > > >=20 >=20 > Isn't Ect(1) L4S marking (DCTCP configured RED) very simple to > implement/configure in the bottleneck (access) queues? > If you can show drastic latency advantages (even with slightly bigger = "small" > queues) with a fast responding congestion control, wouldn't that help? >=20 > Note currently DCTCP responds fast downwards, but not yet fast = upwards. > This is one of the needed improvements. >=20 > Regards, > Koen. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Towards ECN deployment, I believe that a simple easy-to-install > > solution that shows people that ECN can have benefits is a good = first step: > > draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 > > = http://heim.ifi.uio.no/michawe/research/publications/CAIA-TR-150710A.p > > df > > > > In short, this simply tweaks the sender to react differently in > > response to an ECN signal than in response to packet loss = (recognizing > > that a CE- mark was probably produced by a smaller-than-BDP queue). > > The result is that you can have short queues without losing > > throughput. The point of this is to be simple: it doesn=E2=80=99t = change the > > ECN definition, the AQM behavior, the receiver behavior - just the > > sender-side congestion control. > > > > > > > That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in > > > general > > I > > > don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) = and > > ECT(1) > > > > =E2=80=A6 and the proposal I mentioned above uses ECT(0), which is = why it > > wouldn=E2=80=99t get in the way of the better =E2=80=9Cgrand = solution=E2=80=9D here (Scalable > > TCP + Dual Queue + Accurate ECN feedback), yet could help convince > > people that ECN is good. > > > > Cheers, > > Michael ------=_NextPart_000_02F5_01D193D3.DB38CB90 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVYzCCAyAw 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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id na20R2gdeJgf for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 260EA12E78F for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79246d00000788a-d5-570b53d3a79c Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.57]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 60.34.30858.3D35B075; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.173]) by ESESSHC013.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.57]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:35:46 +0200 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "michawe@ifi.uio.no" Thread-Topic: [tcpPrague] BoF comments Thread-Index: AdGQzM8d5pZ8c6cwRf6INAKepeS6V///6iwA//n64pA= Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:35:46 +0000 Message-ID: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC413A@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03F3_01D193D5.864D6030" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7pe7lYO5wg5OHJC2OPlzAanH/7BtW ix9nd7JaTG04yOLA4vHq/gVWjyVLfjJ5rF79kNnj7q1LTAEsUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZFx/f YC/4nVyx9PZypgbGf9FdjJwcEgImEps/fGeGsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCEUWLKzn5GCGcJo8S5 Ga1gVWwCNhIrD31nBLFFBHQldk5/xA5SxCwwk1HiW/c1sCJhAVWJW+3trBBFahKv7t9hh7Ct 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TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:35:51 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_03F3_01D193D5.864D6030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi As regards to draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 , please note that = the SCReAM draft already recommends different back off settings for loss = and ECN-CE. With that said, I have not had time to evaluate ECN fully. /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Welzl [mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no] > Sent: den 7 april 2016 15:38 > To: Ingemar Johansson S > Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org; Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net); > koen.de_schepper@nokia.com > Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments >=20 > Hi Ingemar, all, >=20 >=20 > > On 7. apr. 2016, at 10.24, Ingemar Johansson S > wrote: > > > > I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. = I > > have not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. > > > > Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ > > solution to it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals = ideas > > from TCP. This work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure we=E2=80=99d even need to tweak SCReAM or any = other delay-based > mechanism when we=E2=80=99re discussing using instantaneous queue = marking with > ECN? > Scalable TCP should give you low latency and a smooth rate, what else = can > you wish for? > (except maybe it shouldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9CTCP=E2=80=9D per se for = RMCAT=E2=80=99s purposes, you > neither need nor want 100% reliability there). >=20 >=20 > > The challenges are both technical and political. > > Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to > > reach low latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against > > the need to have enough bits to transmit, given that the transport > > block sizes can change a lot. The rapid change in resource = allocation > > is also a challenge as transport protocols at the endpoints are not > > fast enough to track these, the effect of this is that the queuing > > delay will spike even though it is targeted to a low level. There > > could be solutions to this but these solutions cannot be devised > > within a IETF framework, rather it needs to be handled with in the > > SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if subject to = standardization > at all). > > > > Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is > > standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. = Still > > despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to > > somehow be driven in 3GPP as well. >=20 > Towards ECN deployment, I believe that a simple easy-to-install = solution that > shows people that ECN can have benefits is a good first step: > draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 > = http://heim.ifi.uio.no/michawe/research/publications/CAIA-TR-150710A.pdf >=20 > In short, this simply tweaks the sender to react differently in = response to an > ECN signal than in response to packet loss (recognizing that a CE-mark = was > probably produced by a smaller-than-BDP queue). The result is that you = can > have short queues without losing throughput. The point of this is to = be > simple: it doesn=E2=80=99t change the ECN definition, the AQM = behavior, the receiver > behavior - just the sender-side congestion control. >=20 >=20 > > That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in = general > > I don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) = and > > ECT(1) >=20 > =E2=80=A6 and the proposal I mentioned above uses ECT(0), which is why = it wouldn=E2=80=99t > get in the way of the better =E2=80=9Cgrand solution=E2=80=9D here = (Scalable TCP + Dual > Queue + Accurate ECN feedback), yet could help convince people that = ECN is > good. >=20 > Cheers, > Michael ------=_NextPart_000_03F3_01D193D5.864D6030 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVYzCCAyAw ggIIoAMCAQICAR0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwOTELMAkGA1UEBhMCRkkxDzANBgNVBAoTBlNvbmVy 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9H2u1Bu_4PXK for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.uio.no (mail-out4.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A87EA12E309 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx4.uio.no ([129.240.10.45]) by mail-out4.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1apWZX-0003sz-8r; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:47:47 +0200 Received: from boomerang.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.135]) by mail-mx4.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1apWZW-0001e0-He; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:47:47 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC413A@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:47:45 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC14FC@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <94DF7A67-4D00-4D73-9812-90190535DB03@ifi.uio.no> <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA43DC413A@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> To: Ingemar Johansson S X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 7 msgs/h 3 sum rcpts/h 8 sum msgs/h 3 total rcpts 40241 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.5, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.536, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: D21BB69E924F8D48052F1B222D99F61A0D2DEAFA X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.68.135 spam_score: -64 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 3 total 9599 max/h 17 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Cc: "ietf@bobbriscoe.net" , "tcpprague@ietf.org" , "koen.de_schepper@nokia.com" Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:47:52 -0000 Thanks - this is great! I hadn't seen this in the draft - I just checked = and saw that it was added in the last version. Cheers, Michael > On 11 Apr 2016, at 09:35, Ingemar Johansson S = wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > As regards to draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 , please note = that the SCReAM draft already recommends different back off settings for = loss and ECN-CE. With that said, I have not had time to evaluate ECN = fully. >=20 > /Ingemar >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Welzl [mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no] >> Sent: den 7 april 2016 15:38 >> To: Ingemar Johansson S >> Cc: tcpprague@ietf.org; Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net); >> koen.de_schepper@nokia.com >> Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] BoF comments >>=20 >> Hi Ingemar, all, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 7. apr. 2016, at 10.24, Ingemar Johansson S >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> I am quite positive to the 'Ultra-Low Queuing Delay for All' ideas. = I >>> have not fully grasped the AQM ideas but nonetheless. >>>=20 >>> Direct question (which I missed) : On SCReAM and making a dualQ >>> solution to it. Yes, should be doable as SCReAM already steals = ideas >>> from TCP. This work of course depends on whether SCReAM flies. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure we=E2=80=99d even need to tweak SCReAM or any = other delay-based >> mechanism when we=E2=80=99re discussing using instantaneous queue = marking with >> ECN? >> Scalable TCP should give you low latency and a smooth rate, what else = can >> you wish for? >> (except maybe it shouldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9CTCP=E2=80=9D per se = for RMCAT=E2=80=99s purposes, you >> neither need nor want 100% reliability there). >>=20 >>=20 >>> The challenges are both technical and political. >>> Technical : 4G/5G (also raised at the mic by somebody).The goal to >>> reach low latency even at high load levels is a bit at odds against >>> the need to have enough bits to transmit, given that the transport >>> block sizes can change a lot. The rapid change in resource = allocation >>> is also a challenge as transport protocols at the endpoints are not >>> fast enough to track these, the effect of this is that the queuing >>> delay will spike even though it is targeted to a low level. There >>> could be solutions to this but these solutions cannot be devised >>> within a IETF framework, rather it needs to be handled with in the >>> SDOs that deal with the MAC layer functions (if subject to = standardization >> at all). >>>=20 >>> Political : The challenge today is to sell ECN, even though ECN is >>> standardized in TS36.300 I still eagerly wait to see it happen. = Still >>> despite this, any work around this that involves 3GPP radio needs to >>> somehow be driven in 3GPP as well. >>=20 >> Towards ECN deployment, I believe that a simple easy-to-install = solution that >> shows people that ECN can have benefits is a good first step: >> draft-khademi-alternativebackoff-ecn-03 >> = http://heim.ifi.uio.no/michawe/research/publications/CAIA-TR-150710A.pdf >>=20 >> In short, this simply tweaks the sender to react differently in = response to an >> ECN signal than in response to packet loss (recognizing that a = CE-mark was >> probably produced by a smaller-than-BDP queue). The result is that = you can >> have short queues without losing throughput. The point of this is to = be >> simple: it doesn=E2=80=99t change the ECN definition, the AQM = behavior, the receiver >> behavior - just the sender-side congestion control. >>=20 >>=20 >>> That said : Given that one can get some traction around ECN in = general >>> I don't see any dramatic issues with distinguishing between ECT(0) = and >>> ECT(1) >>=20 >> =E2=80=A6 and the proposal I mentioned above uses ECT(0), which is = why it wouldn=E2=80=99t >> get in the way of the better =E2=80=9Cgrand solution=E2=80=9D here = (Scalable TCP + Dual >> Queue + Accurate ECN feedback), yet could help convince people that = ECN is >> good. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Michael >=20