From nobody Mon Apr 4 11:14:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485D112D16A for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8luskcpxDrck for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway22.websitewelcome.com (gateway22.websitewelcome.com [192.185.47.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D3E512D135 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm4.websitewelcome.com (unknown [108.167.139.16]) by gateway22.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB26E5BA49F83 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:11:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator4135.hostgator.com ([192.185.4.147]) by cm4.websitewelcome.com with id eJBg1s00e3AKFgo01JBhvq; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:11:43 -0500 Received: from dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.180.17]:49887) by gator4135.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1an8yR-000229-PZ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:11:40 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_55F69E26-F0BE-4CCD-98BB-2461150AEE48" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Shida Schubert In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:11:35 -0300 Message-Id: <933D84BA-4D88-4AB2-9B79-041AF98835B9@ntt-at.com> References: To: "webpush@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator4135.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ntt-at.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 31.133.180.17 X-Exim-ID: 1an8yR-000229-PZ X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.180.17]:49887 X-Source-Auth: shida@agnada.com X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: c3NoaWRhO3NzaGlkYTtnYXRvcjQxMzUuaG9zdGdhdG9yLmNvbQ== Archived-At: Cc: Peter Beverloo Subject: Re: [Webpush] VAPID as a WG item? X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 18:14:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_55F69E26-F0BE-4CCD-98BB-2461150AEE48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All; We received very little support for adopting the VAPID draft.=20 I personally believe this draft will add a lot of value to the overall = security of webpush.=20 It=E2=80=99s a very short draft so please scan the draft before the = session today as I will be polling the WG about adopting the draft at = today=E2=80=99s session. Thanks!=20 Shida > On Mar 14, 2016, at 8:46 AM, Peter Beverloo = wrote: >=20 > Yes, we are. In addition, we're also working on an implementation and > expect to feed back our experiences there in case anything comes up. >=20 > Specific to question (1), there may be some overlap with Martin's = question > of whether to adopt it as the solution to Issue 44. >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/webpush/current/msg00411.html = >=20 > Thanks, > Peter >=20 > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Shida Schubert > wrote: >=20 > All; >=20 > I am wanting to hear people=E2=80=99s opinion on adopting = draft-thomson-webpush-vapid as a WG item. >=20 > I will need to talk to AD about adding this to a milestone (or as part = of the core protocol milestone) but before I go ahead and do that, I = want to see if people in the WG are; >=20 > 1. Interested to work on the problem it=E2=80=99s trying to solve. > 2. Willing to review and contribute to move this forward. >=20 > Thanks! > Shida as co-chair >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush --Apple-Mail=_55F69E26-F0BE-4CCD-98BB-2461150AEE48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 All;

We = received very little support for adopting the VAPID = draft. 

I = personally believe this draft will add a lot of value to the overall = security of webpush. 

It=E2=80=99s a very short draft so please scan the draft = before the session today as I will be polling the WG about adopting the = draft at today=E2=80=99s session.

Thanks! 
Shida

On Mar 14, 2016, at 8:46 AM, = Peter Beverloo <beverloo@google.com> wrote:

Yes, we are.  In addition, we're also = working on an implementation and
expect to feed = back our experiences there in case anything comes up.

Specific to question = (1), there may be some overlap with Martin's question
of whether to adopt it as the solution to Issue 44.

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/webpush/current/msg00411.h= tml

Thanks,
Peter

On Sun, = Mar 13, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Shida Schubert <shida@ntt-at.com> wrote:

All;

I am wanting to hear people=E2=80=99s opinion on adopting = draft-thomson-webpush-vapid as a WG item.

I will need to talk to AD about adding this to a milestone (or as part = of the core protocol milestone) but before I go ahead and do that, I = want to see if people in the WG are;

1. Interested to work on the problem it=E2=80=99s trying to solve.
2. Willing to review and contribute to move this forward.

Thanks!
Shida as co-chair

_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush

_______________________________________________
Webpush = mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush

= --Apple-Mail=_55F69E26-F0BE-4CCD-98BB-2461150AEE48-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 15:18:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B2612D5E4 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axqsvG2L6xVN for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway26.websitewelcome.com (gateway26.websitewelcome.com [192.185.87.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 378C612D562 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm4.websitewelcome.com (unknown [108.167.139.16]) by gateway26.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B965A2A71E691 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 17:18:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator4135.hostgator.com ([192.185.4.147]) by cm4.websitewelcome.com with id eNJU1s00a3AKFgo01NJVEa; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 17:18:29 -0500 Received: from dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.180.17]:54802) by gator4135.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1anCpI-000OSE-3q for webpush@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 17:18:28 -0500 From: Shida Schubert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24084665-A0E8-4D74-A536-586A0108843E" Message-Id: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:18:25 -0300 To: webpush@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator4135.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ntt-at.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 31.133.180.17 X-Exim-ID: 1anCpI-000OSE-3q X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.180.17]:54802 X-Source-Auth: shida@agnada.com X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: c3NoaWRhO3NzaGlkYTtnYXRvcjQxMzUuaG9zdGdhdG9yLmNvbQ== Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:18:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_24084665-A0E8-4D74-A536-586A0108843E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All; As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting = VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application = identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed = Standard=E2=80=9D.=20 https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt = If you have concern or objections with this, please express your = opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail.=20 If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please = express that as well by responding to this e-mail. *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on = the list, please express your support again.=20 If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) =20 Thanks!=20 Shida as co-chair --Apple-Mail=_24084665-A0E8-4D74-A536-586A0108843E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

All;

As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list = for adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary = application identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as = Proposed Standard=E2=80=9D. 

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt

If you have = concern or objections with this, please express your opinion(s) by = responding to this e-mail. 

If you like the draft, see value and = you like to see it adopted, please express that as well by responding to = this e-mail.
*Even if you have expressed your = interest previously in the room or on the list, please express your = support again. 

If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) =  

Thanks! 
Shida as = co-chair

= --Apple-Mail=_24084665-A0E8-4D74-A536-586A0108843E-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 19:14:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888E412D5B0 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0nXIysPwTIut for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1295D12D5A9 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id e128so24666pfe.3 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:14:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=kwzVYT2fHOUfuCMV0KAjK6HKkJlVbZe5GIeqAuhbxlQ=; b=dmlNdACselSO8HgodHNT6/xxw0/+ugTUQf11uhxcq2wuW8QAWlCvLVRrw43vaigAOz qOY4bFIe/unzByYXSZQfaY5gsEu37H5fPZPISN2Fsqo7mmcWNRig5bzfYWWx+a4JGvP4 hrl9n++2cy3574PIUvivLZ0hPC1ikdXdeXc5KCNPAdFAuvYILEdqVLqVF8ZbtAXtbZqE ld1cgaZs/emb5d+dV3k5Otv9R0nsZeD7IRrpgLYV1TUB4mUThjg3FTSum/rgQJ5Qszdj o+FISDGqweZGSKkLl6eo4ZDx5AByV3c/8CEVBs4qQsHqL28B/k67pCISiWaVB4CHQmc5 Qs9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=kwzVYT2fHOUfuCMV0KAjK6HKkJlVbZe5GIeqAuhbxlQ=; b=FhIZ2HkPefvNVor5k3H687BMrmh5IgCdl8wHL3wNgPbTUBGZxGndxTr8fV7DiWgR6m aMQLo8LO9l1Ax0wzBQ9rh1X4WbIPq4zIlTkfpD67r9gh6F2z5rp5fsJu2dcju01by+dZ BYJ/OK/dX2Igg0jFwc21gqHyyV3TrGWXi/QGU6e9Lsr+SC84K6CQzQSLPffPdrsNldDw jcipEIYomOouPvv7njiH2btxJeIr/tQ5xYhY/XJY1jRqoN7oR6qx+aU9KPZsYkKBFz6F /rZazt2smLPeSh9T7zLdGaDxc+EA4VD9RuYga3sj0of3+T+FPOvA0DEUEuoj/o2HW0HW 1v+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJGmZ6pnpp6qr3sjmzVewrX4us1wAFsc8krf3r1653afv9qJ/o3TI2ANu4wsau7kBQK X-Received: by 10.98.10.29 with SMTP id s29mr25925972pfi.166.1459822480407; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.102] (107-130-102-77.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [107.130.102.77]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ml5sm3303907pab.2.2016.04.04.19.14.39 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:14:39 -0700 (PDT) To: webpush@ietf.org References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> From: jr conlin Message-ID: <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:14:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050106020001010306030804" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 02:14:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050106020001010306030804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID specification. On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote: > > All; > > As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for > adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone “voluntary > application identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as > Proposed Standard”. > > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt > > If you have concern or objections with this, please express your > opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. > > If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, > please express that as well by responding to this e-mail. > *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on > the list, please express your support again. > > If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) > > Thanks! > Shida as co-chair > > > > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush --------------050106020001010306030804 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID specification.

On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote:

All;

As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone “voluntary application identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard”. 

If you have concern or objections with this, please express your opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. 

If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please express that as well by responding to this e-mail.
*Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on the list, please express your support again. 

If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :)  

Thanks! 
Shida as co-chair



_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush

--------------050106020001010306030804-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 19:47:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0826112D1CA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:47:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.93 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.93 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cVObgdTF2cS for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E4912D70C for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id u352lJkM031333 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:47:19 -0600 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:47:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:47:19 -0600 From: Darshak Thakore To: "webpush@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft Thread-Index: AQHRjr/v2cGsPkZVR0S2E6BF62vDZJ96rW6A Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 02:47:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> In-Reply-To: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3287EA6A3D4dthakorecablelabscom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 02:47:24 -0000 --_000_D3287EA6A3D4dthakorecablelabscom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, After reviewing the draft, I agree that it provides a useful option to the = core webpush protocol that allows the push service to operate with better = =93intelligence=94 and scale by using information volunteered by the applic= ation servers. I am in favor of adopting this as a WG item. I do have a few questions/clarifications that I=92ll send in a separate thr= ead. Regards, Darshak On 4/4/16, 4:18 PM, "Webpush on behalf of Shida Schubert" on behalf of shida@ntt-at.com> wrote: All; As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting VAP= ID draft as a WG item for a milestone =93voluntary application identificati= on mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard=94. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt If you have concern or objections with this, please express your opinion(s)= by responding to this e-mail. If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please exp= ress that as well by responding to this e-mail. *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on the = list, please express your support again. If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) Thanks! Shida as co-chair --_000_D3287EA6A3D4dthakorecablelabscom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
After reviewing the draft, I agree that it provides a useful option to= the core webpush protocol that allows the push service to operate with bet= ter =93intelligence=94 and scale by using information volunteered by the ap= plication servers. I am in favor of adopting this as a WG item. 

I do have a few questions/clarifications that I=92ll send in a separat= e thread.

Regards,
Darshak


On 4/4/16, 4:18 PM, "Webpush on behalf of Shida Schubert" &l= t;webpush-bounces@ietf.org = on behalf of shida@ntt-at.com> wrote:


All;

As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list = for adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =93voluntary applicat= ion identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standar= d=94. 

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-va= pid-02.txt

If you have concern or objections with this, please express= your opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. 

If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it ado= pted, please express that as well by responding to this e-mail.
*Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the= room or on the list, please express your support again. 

If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :)=  

Thanks! 
Shida as co-chair

 --_000_D3287EA6A3D4dthakorecablelabscom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 05:42:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FADC12D687 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:42:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PIyqejcEiS1i for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E6D212D669 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g184so9531367lfb.3 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=Lk+EeEMWmjclSHyz0LvtEMEsCKfxIKimjgbgRiRbXIU=; b=YS+wH5jWogy5nJzNA85X04w5YlyJqnlACPZznU00pwgJpzYZEDYI0kg8W+rlVPoAzx hPQl0Y92TD5nduNdtG3zpOcWOTDCeSi2NnFBQ8fxZSt1V8Hz9mxjPTrxhjwbD3tSPhwR SPCJfijwkxl2wpT1zv9T0W1ML5FRonDCfU/6tIAwxEhanvEEpa8P3LMvG/EtfVzuOuw6 L+wsJ/XwSqR2a5XjsqW531U3JWOWLqKgnnv4lVD7GEwH3r/5Sk3UZ3HQf3SQ5JD9gdqk yDApbEuBOUI+ZTrnw50mcZJp5gUGsmAMqqQ55wduQ6bsL2IUE4qv3u7s+Sh34nBrMGv3 /6Uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=Lk+EeEMWmjclSHyz0LvtEMEsCKfxIKimjgbgRiRbXIU=; b=I325YpRahJYqOe6neQtG5k5+oKyvTa+sWfJBtKHpzDW1MARA+vwg7wHbIRaxwxcQNO 9XvoVHMx69RZTeSryKdDMFuv5yuCUC4nFFqO/XdL6VNa0BiWEIPS2/Tz6xGGFnTsxWRY hBBge3rOaujRhlmh4fSSXev8SMDN4AmFAA/OR+VxWEEW76pCpGDDLNnJtk5DVMuhPYIF i1CL4eJ75OWY+TNVS7drWEHxF+NfmZ+YsN+kmFXSkSPGRQazxhS+sitVhibk7n/jxlMX BSFjmclOWFNleer54PFWLqaEqxrmIXggdLRtIxT8D1KWAZ+ae9DW5q7Ce7GOhwjrAamh E+Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIGcl2tnZG9VeOG9DUJ3D61/miQYI76GQIXtNhBXGlhXeX/7y+Wor0kQwUyAbGxm6HKSTxEbp1P3gZYoQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.21.28 with SMTP id l28mr5676227lfi.165.1459860154467; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.200.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:42:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:42:34 +0800 Message-ID: From: Richard Maher To: jr conlin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e5b92edfbc6052fbc2d03 Archived-At: Cc: webpush@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:42:44 -0000 --001a113e5b92edfbc6052fbc2d03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi jr, As a "service provider" what are YOU going to provide? So subscription.getKey() is now a mandatory method? Does Mozilla need to implement "xxx_sender_id" in the manifest? Why is there no talk of TOPIC subscriptions? A server subscribing a client to a TOPIC is surely bullshit? Can't these standards proposals ever talk about implementations? Who wins? Google, Mozilla, Someone else? Cheers Richard Maher (I liked Dallas) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jr conlin Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft To: webpush@ietf.org As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID specification. On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote: All; As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard=E2= =80=9D. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt If you have concern or objections with this, please express your opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please express that as well by responding to this e-mail. *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on the list, please express your support again. If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) Thanks! Shida as co-chair _______________________________________________ Webpush mailing listWebpush@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush _______________________________________________ Webpush mailing list Webpush@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush --001a113e5b92edfbc6052fbc2d03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi jr,

As a &= quot;service provider" what are YOU going to provide?

So subscription.getKey() is now a mandatory method?=C2=A0

Does Mozilla need to implement "xxx_sender_id" i= n the manifest?

Why is there no talk of TOPIC subs= criptions? A server subscribing a client to a TOPIC is surely bullshit?

Can't these standards proposals ever talk about i= mplementations? Who wins? Google, Mozilla, Someone else?


Cheers Richard Maher (I liked Dallas)

<= /div>
---------- Forwarded message ----------=
From: jr conlin <= ;jconlin@mozilla.c= om>
Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [We= bpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft
To: webpush@ietf.org


=20 =20 =20
As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID specification.

On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote:
=20

All;

As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application identification mechanism for web pus= h draft to IESG as Proposed Standard=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0


If you have concern or objections with this, please express your opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail.=C2=A0

If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please express that as well by responding to this e-mail.
*Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on the list, please express your support again.=C2= =A0

If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) =C2=A0

Thanks!=C2=A0
Shida as co-chair



_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush


_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush


--001a113e5b92edfbc6052fbc2d03-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 06:44:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB3812D966 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:44:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qukivDfwKns9 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2541E12D1DF for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x229.google.com with SMTP id zm5so11109312pac.0 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 06:44:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kq2D7Nwmx5UryNom4S8ocEhfYvdsnCChLuwzXg4Ez7w=; b=E57+hNThLxnq+Lvfcib4BklgJAwMS6B1XbwmOvoNOnbvsSAqyUgbgUj6MRF3PwISMx kT9OEGIr89YmO9+vXaeQ6Gdz3BbqgHlgVryWsQSZW+dMgXnsZpVHJfPy9wAT7jGLZHkG wAgFtfk201/G3GxtQSf+pjcYTiVaoQy4cveMc/KW2JcuSif+gTU9BUkIwroNDcsOqQzA HqOC8PuFJBG1A/UK7uvKYeuHU43VISmCT8Ix+zGJGeO6dNbWyYHFZEGZ+BPUzlpsThWP Mz6tH7YWaZuPRf/8tZrUn0TYuz6gPwtgVn3NBzgmvngurCOCfzxtffHSl+Ns8aM/5P43 DmUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kq2D7Nwmx5UryNom4S8ocEhfYvdsnCChLuwzXg4Ez7w=; b=UDbLua8DJcUgj63viuNec2sfxMyd6jeXOee/+JfqU+Ww0EiVOD1IUxAfY0nq8mi4Kk e1zBNRKUQzSfvKAjopJ3DBWr4VRFgT6gjy7poeFbcVYOUJimgcqOERl4FVIj+wbR0cJZ cVNRXdgUqDuArUAQaCNDWYn4dfWjU3Uzr3W7JmpPztzCSpotF+YFLwo+DLDFdcLo6Hy3 kyV37szVjQCJnoIJWVkKrM8VtNQ/eJSvLvLZfzgHLQterzeAtDLyjca8B15SlNJ5yKml qb6g/fEZhxzh903tbV9vzaPBUw8f8PuJhASAB6yF6c+rIzG/udsLLHDPsYAQlro0XCoh d/Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJwVykb61+lx9knimxXEk1sKn7jVDhc1J9Ljrm+kWEndrleNmQEoJegMr2Cv+OF8qQV X-Received: by 10.66.55.39 with SMTP id o7mr61471277pap.13.1459863885659; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 06:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.2] ([172.56.39.144]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w27sm47178895pfa.67.2016.04.05.06.44.44 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Apr 2016 06:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Kit Cambridge In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:44:41 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> To: Richard Maher X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Cc: jr conlin , webpush@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:44:50 -0000 Hey Richard, (Responses inline). On Apr 5, 2016, at 5:42 AM, Richard Maher = wrote: >=20 > Hi jr, >=20 > As a "service provider" what are YOU going to provide? Our main concern is being able to contact senders. For example, if their = server is misconfigured, or if we see unusually high traffic from a = particular sender. Without any contact info, we could only resort to = throttling or blacklisting. But this is voluntary, of course: as a = sender, you're not required to use VAPID if you don't want to. We'll also use this to provide a "developer dashboard," similar to GCM's = stats. If you opt in, you'll be able to see how many messages were = delivered, whether the recipient was online or offline, and whether = there were delivery errors: bad crypto and uncaught exceptions in = service workers, for example. > So subscription.getKey() is now a mandatory method? `subscription.getKey()` is only for encrypting push messages. Encryption = has always been mandatory in Web Push, unless you'd like to send a = data-free "ping" and have your app fetch the data it needs from your = server. VAPID is totally voluntary. The sender generates an ECDSA key pair and = uses the private key to sign JWT tokens. > Does Mozilla need to implement "xxx_sender_id" in the manifest? I don't think so. The other part of VAPID is creating a "restricted = subscription," which binds a subscription endpoint to your key. That = way, if the endpoint is leaked, you=92ll still need the key pair to send = messages to it. You can see how the DOM API will work here: = https://github.com/w3c/push-api/pull/187 Again, that's voluntary; you don't need to restrict subscriptions to use = VAPID. You can still include a JWT token and only have your server = identify. Or, you can not identify at all. > Why is there no talk of TOPIC subscriptions? A server subscribing a = client to a TOPIC is surely bullshit? I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server subscribing a = client to a TOPIC=94? Web Push uses "topic" to refer to collapsing multiple messages, like = GCM's `collapse_key`...but there's no way for a server to make a client = subscribe. Could you please elaborate? > Can't these standards proposals ever talk about implementations? Who = wins? Google, Mozilla, Someone else? How do you mean? Would you like these proposals to include examples, or = links to implementations? Cheers, - kit >=20 > Cheers Richard Maher (I liked Dallas) >=20 >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: jr conlin > Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft > To: webpush@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID = specification.=20 >=20 > On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote: >>=20 >> All; >>=20 >> As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for = adopting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =93voluntary = application identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as = Proposed Standard=94.=20 >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt >>=20 >> If you have concern or objections with this, please express your = opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail.=20 >>=20 >> If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, = please express that as well by responding to this e-mail. >> *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or = on the list, please express your support again.=20 >>=20 >> If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) =20 >>=20 >> Thanks!=20 >> Shida as co-chair >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Webpush mailing list >>=20 >> Webpush@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush From nobody Tue Apr 5 14:54:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58CA12D765 for ; 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Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.88.130 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.88.130 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:53:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: Costin Manolache To: Shida Schubert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01536f8ce2204d052fc3e12b Archived-At: Cc: webpush@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 21:54:18 -0000 --089e01536f8ce2204d052fc3e12b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 On Apr 4, 2016 7:18 PM, "Shida Schubert" wrote: > > All; > > As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting > VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application > identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard= =E2=80=9D. > > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt > > If you have concern or objections with this, please express your > opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. > > If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, please > express that as well by responding to this e-mail. > *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on th= e > list, please express your support again. > > If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) > > Thanks! > Shida as co-chair > > > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > > --089e01536f8ce2204d052fc3e12b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

On Apr 4, 2016 7:18 PM, "Shida Schubert&quo= t; <shida@ntt-at.com> wrote:<= br type=3D"attribution">

All;

As I ment= ioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adopting VAPID draft = as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application identification = mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0


If you have concern = or objections with this, please express your opinion(s) by responding to th= is e-mail.=C2=A0

If you like the draft, see value = and you like to see it adopted, please express that as well by responding t= o this e-mail.
*Even if you have expressed your interest previous= ly in the room or on the list, please express your support again.=C2=A0

If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me k= now :) =C2=A0

Thanks!=C2=A0
Shida as co-= chair


_______________________________________= ________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush

--089e01536f8ce2204d052fc3e12b-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 17:33:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7598612D61F for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zCuX1a-6uiwG for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x233.google.com (mail-lb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B114C12D1E9 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-x233.google.com with SMTP id vo2so19810147lbb.1 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=ADColptfJH1GvmT5Yd0VDYyhaZPRER1q/FpecizSRBc=; b=l1bjZGGU7qUH4MytlT52jG7dW0Tjcl7x5LuicC/U7ZETeRt0CrDD/51cZtpQIZzLx1 WXAtxVMvCwGGlyL3tK+XM8GyhgJ3e8yXIfYzGDELu4TSxMvDxgZwBvecp668xPQ8TZC1 uqu3fyNre+JMeQoY8BTt0iPl2mpap2z6b8E5UtGoRXqO2Zb6mnc34OPX1NcdEiZE9Pgl kQIbkAfkOLNtccPuWM1G687ZH0B7+XDOhwuezfP85YymnTRN6OdqAafO1NzGqE7Kz6D/ FPanRh9RHifpZ84kcZCgxUn4+ALi6sqQ3YYPu+pnIfTp+L+vzy9w1GmpyoUY3HaRQlVp 92PA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=ADColptfJH1GvmT5Yd0VDYyhaZPRER1q/FpecizSRBc=; b=g5fAx88nVH7SKguGdQXYKhhD8fISmm+6aZhN6lAdu2kMeBOULrZZl3RMGOmRhKS1Y0 jKm3B4itpc91qzGx146l2eIgwDoSqGHmKQEXfMddRBqiLXyfLKtRQBxiWSbA8Psm9vVR OcK2BtlBOxW5ZwBjU/YwCDY5nBzf8yU7U9CNMVTEhr5BIZPkm5FCJJ+z8NWwm1NxfPg1 M4/KxPTU5t0Dxg+mKZOx253hl6aDuDjkB/OA9tvrYYJG31pgwLDe9Oic7L0+2yhI6L5r u/Adxzvb6WxjJd8a55+2XzUPLZVjlxqhduj8NgtWRM+NRgNBVTgWPJPde7kSjIAqaDtC MkkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIhPTVH50v+b6MdyC7XK/ChzUCLf/NUqXcNMmToCdQF8ojGG1+vnM7Ozr+0Lid0hzQlxiLWaVxKqvDNgQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.136.201 with SMTP id qc9mr526910lbb.35.1459902785842; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.200.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:33:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 08:33:05 +0800 Message-ID: From: Richard Maher To: Kit Cambridge Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e011831acf4f2e8052fc61acc Archived-At: Cc: jr conlin , webpush@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 00:33:11 -0000 --089e011831acf4f2e8052fc61acc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kit, > I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server subscribing a client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D? I may have misunderstood the documentation but WRT https://developers.google.com/cloud-messaging/topic-messaging#managing_topi= c_subscriptions_from_the_server and https://developers.google.com/instance-id/reference/server#create_a_relatio= n_mapping_for_an_app_instance , in the absence of any client topic-subscription mechanism what else can we do? > How do you mean? Would you like these proposals to include examples, or links to implementations? Either/or would be good Thanks for the reply and sorry to others for going off-TOPIC :-) Cheers Richard On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Kit Cambridge wrote: > Hey Richard, > > (Responses inline). > > On Apr 5, 2016, at 5:42 AM, Richard Maher wrote: > > > > > Hi jr, > > > > As a "service provider" what are YOU going to provide? > > Our main concern is being able to contact senders. For example, if their > server is misconfigured, or if we see unusually high traffic from a > particular sender. Without any contact info, we could only resort to > throttling or blacklisting. But this is voluntary, of course: as a sender= , > you're not required to use VAPID if you don't want to. > > We'll also use this to provide a "developer dashboard," similar to GCM's > stats. If you opt in, you'll be able to see how many messages were > delivered, whether the recipient was online or offline, and whether there > were delivery errors: bad crypto and uncaught exceptions in service > workers, for example. > > > So subscription.getKey() is now a mandatory method? > > `subscription.getKey()` is only for encrypting push messages. Encryption > has always been mandatory in Web Push, unless you'd like to send a > data-free "ping" and have your app fetch the data it needs from your serv= er. > > VAPID is totally voluntary. The sender generates an ECDSA key pair and > uses the private key to sign JWT tokens. > > > Does Mozilla need to implement "xxx_sender_id" in the manifest? > > I don't think so. The other part of VAPID is creating a "restricted > subscription," which binds a subscription endpoint to your key. That way, > if the endpoint is leaked, you=E2=80=99ll still need the key pair to send= messages > to it. You can see how the DOM API will work here: > https://github.com/w3c/push-api/pull/187 > > Again, that's voluntary; you don't need to restrict subscriptions to use > VAPID. You can still include a JWT token and only have your server > identify. Or, you can not identify at all. > > > Why is there no talk of TOPIC subscriptions? A server subscribing a > client to a TOPIC is surely bullshit? > > I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server subscribing a > client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D? > > Web Push uses "topic" to refer to collapsing multiple messages, like GCM'= s > `collapse_key`...but there's no way for a server to make a client > subscribe. Could you please elaborate? > > > Can't these standards proposals ever talk about implementations? Who > wins? Google, Mozilla, Someone else? > > How do you mean? Would you like these proposals to include examples, or > links to implementations? > > Cheers, > - kit > > > > > Cheers Richard Maher (I liked Dallas) > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: jr conlin > > Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:14 AM > > Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft > > To: webpush@ietf.org > > > > > > As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID > specification. > > > > On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote: > >> > >> All; > >> > >> As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for adoptin= g > VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary application > identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard= =E2=80=9D. > >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt > >> > >> If you have concern or objections with this, please express your > opinion(s) by responding to this e-mail. > >> > >> If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, pleas= e > express that as well by responding to this e-mail. > >> *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room or on > the list, please express your support again. > >> > >> If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :) > >> > >> Thanks! > >> Shida as co-chair > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Webpush mailing list > >> > >> Webpush@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Webpush mailing list > > Webpush@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Webpush mailing list > > Webpush@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > > --089e011831acf4f2e8052fc61acc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Kit,

=C2=A0

> I don't follow this point. What do you mean= by "a server subscribing a client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0

I may have misunderstood the documentation but WRT= =C2=A0https://developers.google= .com/cloud-messaging/topic-messaging#managing_topic_subscriptions_from_the_= server and=C2=A0https://devel= opers.google.com/instance-id/reference/server#create_a_relation_mapping_for= _an_app_instance , in the absence of any client topic-subscription mech= anism what else can we do?

=C2=A0

> How do you mean? Would you like these proposals= to include examples, or links to implementations?

=C2=A0

Either/or would be good

Thanks for the reply and sorry to others for g= oing off-TOPIC :-)


Cheers Richard


On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Kit Cambridge <kcambrid= ge@mozilla.com> wrote:
Hey = Richard,

(Responses inline).

On Apr 5, 2016, at 5:42 AM, Richard Maher <maherrj@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> Hi jr,
>
> As a "service provider" what are YOU going to provide?

Our main concern is being able to contact senders. For example, if t= heir server is misconfigured, or if we see unusually high traffic from a pa= rticular sender. Without any contact info, we could only resort to throttli= ng or blacklisting. But this is voluntary, of course: as a sender, you'= re not required to use VAPID if you don't want to.

We'll also use this to provide a "developer dashboard," simil= ar to GCM's stats. If you opt in, you'll be able to see how many me= ssages were delivered, whether the recipient was online or offline, and whe= ther there were delivery errors: bad crypto and uncaught exceptions in serv= ice workers, for example.

> So subscription.getKey() is now a mandatory method?

`subscription.getKey()` is only for encrypting push messages. Encryp= tion has always been mandatory in Web Push, unless you'd like to send a= data-free "ping" and have your app fetch the data it needs from = your server.

VAPID is totally voluntary. The sender generates an ECDSA key pair and uses= the private key to sign JWT tokens.

> Does Mozilla need to implement "xxx_sender_id" in the manife= st?

I don't think so. The other part of VAPID is creating a "re= stricted subscription," which binds a subscription endpoint to your ke= y. That way, if the endpoint is leaked, you=E2=80=99ll still need the key p= air to send messages to it. You can see how the DOM API will work here: https://github.com/w3c/push-api/pull/187

Again, that's voluntary; you don't need to restrict subscriptions t= o use VAPID. You can still include a JWT token and only have your server id= entify. Or, you can not identify at all.

> Why is there no talk of TOPIC subscriptions? A server subscribing a cl= ient to a TOPIC is surely bullshit?

I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server su= bscribing a client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D?

Web Push uses "topic" to refer to collapsing multiple messages, l= ike GCM's `collapse_key`...but there's no way for a server to make = a client subscribe. Could you please elaborate?

> Can't these standards proposals ever talk about implementations? W= ho wins? Google, Mozilla, Someone else?

How do you mean? Would you like these proposals to include examples,= or links to implementations?

Cheers,
- kit

>
> Cheers Richard Maher (I liked Dallas)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: jr conlin <jconlin@moz= illa.com>
> Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft
> To: webpush@ietf.org
>
>
> As a service provider, I express my strong support for the VAPID speci= fication.
>
> On 04/04/2016 03:18 PM, Shida Schubert wrote:
>>
>> All;
>>
>> As I mentioned at the meeting today, I am polling the list for ado= pting VAPID draft as a WG item for a milestone =E2=80=9Cvoluntary applicati= on identification mechanism for web push draft to IESG as Proposed Standard= =E2=80=9D.
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft= -thomson-webpush-vapid-02.txt
>>
>> If you have concern or objections with this, please express your o= pinion(s) by responding to this e-mail.
>>
>> If you like the draft, see value and you like to see it adopted, p= lease express that as well by responding to this e-mail.
>> *Even if you have expressed your interest previously in the room o= r on the list, please express your support again.
>>
>> If you are confused with this e-mail, please let me know :)
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Shida as co-chair
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Webpush mailing list
>>
>> Webpush@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush<= /a>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Webpush mailing list
> Webpush@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush<= br> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Webpush mailing list
> Webpush@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush<= br>

--089e011831acf4f2e8052fc61acc-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 19:06:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B1D12D0CB for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e1XFoS3Y5K1Q for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x232.google.com (mail-yw0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA69712D151 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x232.google.com with SMTP id d68so39617740ywe.1 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:06:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4WoHWQRuPu3RlmU5xi5t5uwGDx49r/BJfezc75yO7wc=; b=NjpJwCU+c9nGLubmWQgJL/Btuf0Y10AqlIoIGQzgmAvsSmf9sq5YMsWU4oWjMFm5WH GGbhFz3AobGQbeWqbpUZXGOvzccbERd/hb5nkNVqKUY6IwQTlLVQf5Fj7K0P3JY4YHbH xBmGi0VRDyEweM9OGODyFMlu8kBrWoaJ8tSjoWRV7YH/k9wsC9hQgDg9I+4NRG4s2bF5 FHiifnNyd3i14BAHLrj5/aZbmPaZFcTjeKFyoAQZLIO3hMPsB+Jp46f34qmCojiwvvr5 oD2JHR52HYFDK3nhwHO8yeEyefv73Im0+uQL/zIoyDlkD+WgeYQTnnQsO/a94Gk/tKcJ OSPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4WoHWQRuPu3RlmU5xi5t5uwGDx49r/BJfezc75yO7wc=; b=OX5jihMuB5zcXn2qa6dolFGOqzelzLPNQ7lCCx+ydoQ0IBlCtE9F81BmiyI3A8ja8a AwJ0mq2+rlg+YMyBYCdlcM4oRSrquh76cl49Aa2s3zQHCXxqfbnAU9SojC3biYCc6ieG gwtMUljrT2Qi1DoWYOfhHJ+MK6UCxlh0rm8P4Tv06y5yeaAgEW2LVxzK/orHfBeGJrgf JAaau1ZyNweMAR0MGBQtH4ry+vRdga0D6Vao7Ql9QglQdx7ZcW4+057rZfoVsRVnmWhs 6DROv4O10hLyAHPJ2SCVX1ioyFnpHgaQrs7/NfXZm/ZJloMzH/pN5CWUBWUUCTbCquB8 fnww== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLdRrUeoO5CzwQlDffRLBzCnEkDHPpyZDTO/Y7ED5Hz2p9LV2jcJE5pYO0FVB3AZ/ovwfelbtDfoC/o210y MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.230.198 with SMTP id d189mr8885949ybh.136.1459908379932; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.203.85 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:06:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:06:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: Benjamin Bangert To: Richard Maher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Kit Cambridge , jr conlin , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 02:06:24 -0000 On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Richard Maher wrot= e: > Hi Kit, > > > >> I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server subscribing a >> client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D? > > > > I may have misunderstood the documentation but WRT > https://developers.google.com/cloud-messaging/topic-messaging#managing_to= pic_subscriptions_from_the_server > and > https://developers.google.com/instance-id/reference/server#create_a_relat= ion_mapping_for_an_app_instance > , in the absence of any client topic-subscription mechanism what else can= we > do? That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, not WebPush. Under WebPush, topic collapsing is purely an appserver option when sending a message such that if a message of the same topic was already stored, the new message will replace it. As far as I know, there are no implementations of Webpush topics yet, the spec describes it here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 We're probably a few weeks or month or so out from implementing this for Firefox. Cheers, Ben From nobody Tue Apr 5 19:45:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC7F12D51F for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O9-lFol6UiAY for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F416212D0A7 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c126so23970996lfb.2 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:45:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=2yNWCymV2NjtSO2DQXS1JoGG7fCbSsp7W6tKElEw2/w=; b=zRNdcEohsLX+ETsKhDQ/abkDKDlb26GRqPBl26DZwwaxzfPpMcQFyzgP9nB3yDF6cD oh+gI5CBVLnTIWmbFX3h/rwPHrTmwJD2R8+NsHGTm2S66OLKHTGtygx4HDL6WHc/1uK2 fbCDHYu0NXH8d1LVXCm5kQWmfcdCHNyjZEga933Urt+4mup9J+pGr0Qw43c/U/an3ZgE YvbrCgCMQcx6iAG8FTdO+3HEkSGNBZJU4XckhKxSP7Mgn+fb8OeFZQr8ETT1dPb2DDoF BI0HAv75iY900oDqMsHsoSZ0lmQR0IcLJnYjwjBGhEVf50aYNJHxXRtymoGCkHXwR2pa utPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=2yNWCymV2NjtSO2DQXS1JoGG7fCbSsp7W6tKElEw2/w=; b=Sfn9qS4oBq7ysKz/mK2V+d3+hHLzdZ6wZ/5P+kqHsXSJ71yhNeBPq40ypyLL8cppwm O1fNBsb4oi4Vi2qVOVe7OZtS5D1i3QznHi/ymm5aP1TmTVjlqlbWbg2GlfGJR8N2xq1H 2GCILLxi8RZYyUJXNxFZ0JkKqXcz5lDpvs0VzatCiRa86EyXtUb+0t2nz/l0f/cHamBs bPElynUG7UVCfD2mKZFYalvzGNDmvG24s4WjB4OTptyNELjzWZAQfwbNFFnlUqNW1rZd bdqhQhSJbszrknn7hrj2bfJg8k78DW0Hr7KYEclOvpOcJxrQhlKWoqmdWO24gbNGOsdF gv/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKE1/zUTEjQ3WK/YtKHr/3+wcj3g3L5OxklL3/LD6R1v4nD7hO+qUJLfZAZtkfzXV7wcjgXcxtkRqIk2Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.21.231 with SMTP id 100mr12418819lfv.146.1459910733142; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.200.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:45:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 10:45:33 +0800 Message-ID: From: Richard Maher To: Benjamin Bangert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f1866a721cf052fc7f4be Archived-At: Cc: Kit Cambridge , jr conlin , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 02:45:37 -0000 --001a113f1866a721cf052fc7f4be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benjamin, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed. > That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) would take full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very useful optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics? I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my weather app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if you're also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) then I'm not too happy. I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then maybe add FMG but I don't want the ASX 200. Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that? Cheers Richard On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Bangert wrote: > On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Richard Maher > wrote: > > Hi Kit, > > > > > > > >> I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server subscribing a > >> client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D? > > > > > > > > I may have misunderstood the documentation but WRT > > > https://developers.google.com/cloud-messaging/topic-messaging#managing_to= pic_subscriptions_from_the_server > > and > > > https://developers.google.com/instance-id/reference/server#create_a_relat= ion_mapping_for_an_app_instance > > , in the absence of any client topic-subscription mechanism what else > can we > > do? > > That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, not WebPush. Under > WebPush, topic collapsing is purely an appserver option when sending a > message such that if a message of the same topic was already stored, > the new message will replace it. > > As far as I know, there are no implementations of Webpush topics yet, > the spec describes it here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 > > We're probably a few weeks or month or so out from implementing this > for Firefox. > > Cheers, > Ben > --001a113f1866a721cf052fc7f4be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Benjamin,


<= /div>
Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed.

>=C2=A0That is do= cumentation for Google Cloud Messaging,=C2=A0

I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assume= d the consumers of GCM (et al) would take full advantage of the infrastruct= ure. "Collapsing" is a very useful optimization option but surely= not the raison d'etre of topics?

I want = to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my weather app. The = fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if you're also go= ing to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) then I'm not= too happy.

I want to subscribe to the BHP st= ock ticker broadcasts and then maybe add FMG but I don't want the ASX 2= 00.

Have I really imagined that GCM cann do t= hat?

Cheers Richard=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Wed, Apr 6, 201= 6 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Bangert <bbangert@mozilla.com> wr= ote:
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016= at 5:33 PM, Richard Maher <ma= herrj@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Kit,
>
>
>
>> I don't follow this point. What do you mean by "a server = subscribing a
>> client to a TOPIC=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> I may have misunderstood the documentation but WRT
> https://developers.google.com/cloud-messaging/topic-messaging#m= anaging_topic_subscriptions_from_the_server
> and
> https://developers.google.com/instance-id/reference/server#create_= a_relation_mapping_for_an_app_instance
> , in the absence of any client topic-subscription mechanism what else = can we
> do?

That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, not WebPush. Under=
WebPush, topic collapsing is purely an appserver option when sending a
message such that if a message of the same topic was already stored,
the new message will replace it.

As far as I know, there are no implementations of Webpush topics yet,
the spec describes it here:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4

We're probably a few weeks or month or so out from implementing this for Firefox.

Cheers,
Ben

--001a113f1866a721cf052fc7f4be-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 20:09:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AB512D7BD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7DmvgyFWIbHE for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5A2712DA02 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d68so40623168ywe.1 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:54:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=WPM+lOr1zIbJBIz0U2wlDqdqQ1hL4yZCL4WThumqmkU=; b=rB9oKgDW9P7+OGNl8HwHM6W01rm7LH4jR+Xjuft715m3xQep3JV4G3LpsThs4psqR7 WVvmti7k8xXAVR3rceL0Y7efcw/lmWkxcHa2a724LISaUhgd2G5NY6wsYRlAWwss0lY/ aHm4nWhTQyIRyu3L00LYwWZetfEuJMLcQFUCnDxSoW6LIGFoQiVvJGL4wq/i/Xps+NDm bFcQcb77wFh8YpJB8wNFhyEM2VDSOlTQAdjgsCwnMPOkowT4/arZIjgyY+AkNMek9b5q qR3VkIJgol4u5meIINIv7Q6wrlyvVwim1tUd0aWdOZQmmA3oHPyEEQaQ4GkkQfpUHKle PN6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=WPM+lOr1zIbJBIz0U2wlDqdqQ1hL4yZCL4WThumqmkU=; b=gc+SKSqEYgE8oiVG5ZqWVStqB8kpMczh1duxVEX1kSwSZZQn1STUmoS87fWgBo8Xr5 PTjVAvIx6qt/QDY8h6TjA0rPkGwifxefi9XcrvG6dvZ2ebiGQkT1BKRgNrvx8wKqe7j9 KWGQ3pEwDgpMqzCcK1DeF23O+7w7gHYDHLDfLmPu0uKChr+ESXuLFhHfMB5bwLmL8/9f ZbB/KqPTESHk9LYWYoKlWvv7jigtMTGzui4ocMKCroA1iD8b7WlzyNZWcfTOCvAdVlHe /jKjb8MIAjNKfZjbyo6Xo7rabCANxTxQxQ0/2bRGtlCk169t/gyrMCJ1PUYSRtkQYkgw z97w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJvDQTWW6R4TPONjQZvt3w6hY/nG9hovyiKWEhefK/gJCrASAZhjP0rhGLNX/bdp8xxGFgB4onSXI0nYwxI MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.230.198 with SMTP id d189mr8947732ybh.136.1459911287844; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.203.85 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:54:47 -0700 Message-ID: From: Benjamin Bangert To: Richard Maher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Kit Cambridge , jr conlin , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 03:09:34 -0000 On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 > > Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed. This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol, while some push implementations have inspired additions, they are separate from the spec that browsers are working to implement. > >> That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, > > I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) would take > full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very useful > optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics? For WebPush, thats the primary intention. > I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my weather > app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if you're > also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) then I'm > not too happy. > > I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then maybe add > FMG but I don't want the ASX 200. > > Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that? GCM can, WebPush cannot. What you're referring to has been proposed as the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here: https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate Cheers, Ben From nobody Tue Apr 5 20:20:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F68012D5A5 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2GqrXWTvNCa for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E6A712D0F0 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c126so24346933lfb.2 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:20:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=J9yqdEPzEfGtY+LIskDZYs/S61S2eSZdyqFN8c1DTKg=; b=D10ZzErI4v2rrIHMp8TwyWXnwzt3/jDVwQD8mw4yZep5CA0xjXOEiHWjC5pSAOw+2d OMFWV7tguq4L7De4J1nn3y7Emr7hG2VMgv1vxR6gBwi4LeTd22YIrJjy0Noet72HeaVG CacYYBzK2D6I3oaCeK2JfUCLx8kaHF0Aa24l8nDpY88tPRYlt50RoAaHCiCxDTsFNb8E lR0/oroFWhuKAVUpPbyiViySHPXjawMTlZn/oaxoKtHA2Hq8vPF4ZOnigHTU4osy6X9T 4VDKHGSO/R/0kAkvDX7Dbeqj8Jjb4MFFfsBKo4OW48ANUlRgJTxzYNCAAqCzK0DMiBm7 FAqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=J9yqdEPzEfGtY+LIskDZYs/S61S2eSZdyqFN8c1DTKg=; b=R8Epq8272pOhzp6IGkr8SsKHTr76nEKjU3B+ydIdY0tnCaHTNuuVNA4KdkNaEXXYCI YwmFt15WPEfouurOl9tDFB9kv+YbmtpZBw7/+AWcvG517N2PjzMXYVJTOYicV1YGUBZx 7zgNg/6b+kPkuneL8TZLxC9a2/fwurVX4AkAJWN1bIt5gbwpqgB3JFxcUxj9QvVDNGhv 2f0LNkXSifAxSFTxnNlatxHSxBiYxsAVfX5qyMRApceQU3Mg7H97QekhHVNOfJTyDOX/ SFFkMOJP9aho38K/qWyZToFrA2N31B2DOjxmr1jusH4qxgo0zatvqH5golCyiiPDM9NZ T4+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIYMM6mSLSR/hKB3fNZIRUnqR1rMX4hcryaxYecXowIgurMTuteqMsHPIbEVLrzLAFRkM0byjQDrDiVgA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.21.231 with SMTP id 100mr12455758lfv.146.1459912847265; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.200.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:20:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:20:47 +0800 Message-ID: From: Richard Maher To: Benjamin Bangert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f1866aa1a46052fc872b5 Archived-At: Cc: Kit Cambridge , jr conlin , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 03:20:52 -0000 --001a113f1866aa1a46052fc872b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Here we go again :-( > This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol Yes, a living and evolving document. Let's not seek to censor the discussion or spit the dummy. > while some > push implementations have inspired additions, > they are separate from the spec that browsers > are working to implement. An interesting opinion. IMHO, that demarcation is so narrow and restrictive that's it's no wonder that real world technology in the wild has rendered these standards redundant. Once again, Web-Apps are deliberately being denied the life-giving functionality of native Apps by design. Is this more about Mozilla's free messaging service not be resourced sufficiently in order to match GCM functionality? I can see the Google involvement but I suggest we need more. AWS around? > For WebPush, thats the primary intention. Who voted for that??? Look FWIW I'll vote no to this standard as a moratorium on bureaucracy is required until the terms of reference has been revisited. Bit more RAD, Agile, Iterative, Buzz-word methodology needed here? Surely only those on the receiving end of Panama could vote for such a WebPush killer :-( > What you're referring to has been proposed as > the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here: > https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate No it is not and please do not put words in my mouth. I want the broadcasting capability that GCM is offering today and I think I can already achieve it at the App server but the subscription mapping should to be done at the client. Just give us another PushManager,subscribe(option). Cheers Richard On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Benjamin Bangert wrote: > On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Richard Maher > wrote: > > Hi Benjamin, > > > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 > > > > Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed. > > This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol, while some > push implementations have inspired additions, they are separate from > the spec that browsers are working to implement. > > > > >> That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, > > > > I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) would > take > > full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very useful > > optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics? > > For WebPush, thats the primary intention. > > > > I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my weather > > app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if you're > > also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) then > I'm > > not too happy. > > > > I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then maybe add > > FMG but I don't want the ASX 200. > > > > Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that? > > GCM can, WebPush cannot. What you're referring to has been proposed as > the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here: > https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate > > Cheers, > Ben > --001a113f1866aa1a46052fc872b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here we go again :-(=

> This mailing list is to discuss the IETF Web= Push protocol

=
Yes, a living and evolving document. = Let's not seek to censor the discussion or spit the dummy.
=

>=C2=A0while s= ome
&= gt; push implementations have inspired additions,=C2=A0
> they are separate from=C2=A0the spec that browsers=C2=A0
= > are working to implement.

An interesting opinion. IMHO, that demarcation is so nar= row and restrictive that's it's no wonder that real world technolog= y in the wild has rendered these standards redundant.

Once again, Web-Apps are deliberately being denied the life-giving= functionality of native Apps by design.

Is t= his more about Mozilla's free messaging service not be resourced suffic= iently in order to match GCM functionality?

I= can see the Google involvement but I suggest we need more. AWS around?

> F= or WebPush, thats the primary intention.

Who voted for that???=C2=A0
Look FWIW I'll vote no to this standard as a moratorium on= bureaucracy is required until the terms of reference has been revisited. B= it more RAD, Agile, Iterative, Buzz-word methodology needed here? Surely on= ly those on the receiving end of Panama could vote for such a WebPush kille= r :-(

> What you're referring to has been p= roposed as
> the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here:>=C2=A0https://github.com/martinthomson/webpu= sh-aggregate

=
No it is not and please do not = put words in my mouth. I want the broadcasting capability that GCM is offer= ing today and I think I can already achieve it at the App server but the su= bscription mapping should to be done at the client. Just give us another Pu= shManager,subscribe(option).

Cheers Richard

On Wed, = Apr 6, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Benjamin Bangert <bbangert@mozilla.com>= wrote:
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at = 7:45 PM, Richard Maher <maherr= j@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
>
>> https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4
>
> Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed.

This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol, while som= e
push implementations have inspired additions, they are separate from
the spec that browsers are working to implement.

>
>> That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging,
>
> I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) would= take
> full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very= useful
> optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics?
For WebPush, thats the primary intention.


> I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my weath= er
> app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if you&= #39;re
> also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) then= I'm
> not too happy.
>
> I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then maybe = add
> FMG but I don't want the ASX 200.
>
> Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that?

GCM can, WebPush cannot. What you're referring to has been propo= sed as
the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here:
https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate=

Cheers,
Ben

--001a113f1866aa1a46052fc872b5-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 08:32:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0BB12D513 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, URIBL_WS_SURBL=1.608] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYn9VEecBxjd for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway36.websitewelcome.com (gateway36.websitewelcome.com [192.185.199.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C957012D522 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm1.websitewelcome.com (cm.websitewelcome.com [192.185.0.102]) by gateway36.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EB83081BF00 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:26:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator4135.hostgator.com ([192.185.4.147]) by cm1.websitewelcome.com with id fTSL1s00M3AKFgo01TSMrH; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:26:21 -0500 Received: from dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.180.17]:61890) by gator4135.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1aoBp5-000NmF-M2 for webpush@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:26:20 -0500 From: Shida Schubert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_171326FA-D82D-49BF-A2D2-8941C2746955" Message-Id: <1BCB2B0F-AD41-4DE1-AFCE-2B491D605C4D@ntt-at.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:26:16 -0300 References: <9EDD05BA-A6D3-4F37-8E65-19D573324966@ntt-at.com> <57031F98.3080300@mozilla.com> To: "webpush@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator4135.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ntt-at.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 31.133.180.17 X-Exim-ID: 1aoBp5-000NmF-M2 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: dhcp-b411.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.180.17]:61890 X-Source-Auth: shida@agnada.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: c3NoaWRhO3NzaGlkYTtnYXRvcjQxMzUuaG9zdGdhdG9yLmNvbQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] Polling to adopt VAPID draft X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:32:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_171326FA-D82D-49BF-A2D2-8941C2746955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am seeing that there are enough support/interests for this draft, so I = am going to ask the authors to submit it as a WG draft.=20 Thanks!=20 Shida as co-chair > On Apr 6, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Richard Maher = wrote: >=20 > Here we go again :-( >=20 > > This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol >=20 > Yes, a living and evolving document. Let's not seek to censor the = discussion or spit the dummy. >=20 > > while some > > push implementations have inspired additions,=20 > > they are separate from the spec that browsers=20 > > are working to implement. >=20 > An interesting opinion. IMHO, that demarcation is so narrow and = restrictive that's it's no wonder that real world technology in the wild = has rendered these standards redundant. >=20 > Once again, Web-Apps are deliberately being denied the life-giving = functionality of native Apps by design. >=20 > Is this more about Mozilla's free messaging service not be resourced = sufficiently in order to match GCM functionality? >=20 > I can see the Google involvement but I suggest we need more. AWS = around? >=20 > > For WebPush, thats the primary intention. >=20 > Who voted for that???=20 >=20 > Look FWIW I'll vote no to this standard as a moratorium on bureaucracy = is required until the terms of reference has been revisited. Bit more = RAD, Agile, Iterative, Buzz-word methodology needed here? Surely only = those on the receiving end of Panama could vote for such a WebPush = killer :-( >=20 > > What you're referring to has been proposed as > > the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here: > > https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate = >=20 > No it is not and please do not put words in my mouth. I want the = broadcasting capability that GCM is offering today and I think I can = already achieve it at the App server but the subscription mapping should = to be done at the client. Just give us another = PushManager,subscribe(option). >=20 > Cheers Richard >=20 > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Benjamin Bangert = > wrote: > On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Richard Maher > wrote: > > Hi Benjamin, > > > >> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#section-6.4 = > > > > Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed. >=20 > This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol, while some > push implementations have inspired additions, they are separate from > the spec that browsers are working to implement. >=20 > > > >> That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging, > > > > I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) = would take > > full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very useful > > optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics? >=20 > For WebPush, thats the primary intention. >=20 >=20 > > I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my = weather > > app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if = you're > > also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) = then I'm > > not too happy. > > > > I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then = maybe add > > FMG but I don't want the ASX 200. > > > > Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that? >=20 > GCM can, WebPush cannot. What you're referring to has been proposed as > the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here: > https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate = >=20 > Cheers, > Ben >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush --Apple-Mail=_171326FA-D82D-49BF-A2D2-8941C2746955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I am seeing that there are enough support/interests for this = draft, so I am going to ask the authors to submit it as a WG = draft. 

Thanks! 
Shida as = co-chair

On Apr 6, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Richard Maher = <maherrj@googlemail.com> wrote:

Here we go again :-(

> = This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol

Yes, a living and evolving document. Let's not seek to censor = the discussion or spit the dummy.

> while some
> push = implementations have inspired additions, 
> they are = separate from the = spec that browsers 
> are working to = implement.

An interesting opinion. IMHO, that = demarcation is so narrow and restrictive that's it's no wonder that real = world technology in the wild has rendered these standards = redundant.

Once again, Web-Apps are = deliberately being denied the life-giving functionality of native Apps = by design.

Is this more about Mozilla's free = messaging service not be resourced sufficiently in order to match GCM = functionality?

I can see the = Google involvement but I suggest we need more. AWS = around?

> For WebPush, = thats the primary intention.

Who voted for that??? 

Look FWIW I'll vote no = to this standard as a moratorium on bureaucracy is required until the = terms of reference has been revisited. Bit more RAD, Agile, Iterative, = Buzz-word methodology needed here? Surely only those on the receiving = end of Panama could vote for such a WebPush killer :-(

> What you're = referring to has been proposed as
> the WebPush = aggregation spec, which can be found here:
> https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate

No it is not and please do not put = words in my mouth. I want the broadcasting capability that GCM is = offering today and I think I can already achieve it at the App server = but the subscription mapping should to be done at the client. Just give = us another PushManager,subscribe(option).

Cheers Richard

On Wed, = Apr 6, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Benjamin Bangert <bbangert@mozilla.com> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at = 7:45 PM, Richard Maher <maherrj@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04#sect= ion-6.4
>
> Now I'm completely lost and more than a tad disappointed.

This mailing list is to discuss the IETF WebPush protocol, while = some
push implementations have inspired additions, they are separate from
the spec that browsers are working to implement.

>
>> That is documentation for Google Cloud Messaging,
>
> I know. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed the consumers of GCM (et al) = would take
> full advantage of the infrastructure. "Collapsing" is a very = useful
> optimization option but surely not the raison d'etre of topics?

For WebPush, thats the primary intention.


> I want to subscribe to /SEVERE/PERTH topics for push messages my = weather
> app. The fact that old messages are collapsed is wonderful but if = you're
> also going to bombard me with /MILD/TIMBUKTU messages (and so on) = then I'm
> not too happy.
>
> I want to subscribe to the BHP stock ticker broadcasts and then = maybe add
> FMG but I don't want the ASX 200.
>
> Have I really imagined that GCM cann do that?

GCM can, WebPush cannot. What you're referring to has been = proposed as
the WebPush aggregation spec, which can be found here:
https://github.com/martinthomson/webpush-aggregate

Cheers,
Ben

_______________________________________________
Webpush = mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush

= --Apple-Mail=_171326FA-D82D-49BF-A2D2-8941C2746955-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:34:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F5E12D164 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.93 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.93 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jC9qYqe2w_E6 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E611612D0F0 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id u37IYOMR022790 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:34:24 -0600 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:34:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:34:22 -0600 From: Darshak Thakore To: "webpush@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 Thread-Index: AQHRkPwajeH8WCR2P0CN1n3qeXFXsg== Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 18:34:22 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D32C044EA68Edthakorecablelabscom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:34:28 -0000 --_000_D32C044EA68Edthakorecablelabscom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, In reviewing the 04 version, I was hoping for some comment/clarification on= the Urgency semanics: Section 6.3 - Urgency header The last paragraph - =93An absent Urgency header field indicates that the r= equest is to be forwarded at =93normal=94 urgency=85" I=92m assuming this statement applies to the =93Urgency=94 header only when= it is used by the AS to send the message to the PS. Correct? An absent =93= Urgency=94 header field in the request from the UA to PS should result in a= ll messages being retrieved. Am i interpreting it correctly ? Also in general, i=92m trying to understand how the =93Urgency=94 header ac= tually works here. Once a radio is up for communication, you typically want= to complete as much of data communication as possible so that you can go b= ack to sleep for an extended period. If we had the following scenario; Three applications have subscribed with the PS so we have a subscription se= t consisting of these three. Now the following messages are sent AS1 -> PS : Sends 5 messages without the Urgency header so all 5 are =93nor= mal" AS2 -> PS : Sends 2 messages with =93high=94, 5 with =93low=94 and 5 with = =93very-low" AS3 -> PS : Games the system and sends 5 messages with =93high=94 Now before AS2 sends any messages, if the UA polls the PS with the Urgency = set to =93high=94, it doesn=92t get any pushes. If the UA polls the PS subs= equently after AS3 sends the messages again with Urgency set to =93high", i= t will receive 7 messages (2 from AS2 and 5 from AS3). The other 15 message= s (from AS1 and AS2) remain outstanding. In the above scenario, the pending 15 messages may expire before getting de= livered and requiring the PS and AS# to maintain state, deliver back =93exp= iration=94 receipts and retry delivery (this cycle may happen a couple of t= imes). Is all this complexity only to allow the device=92s radio to be in f= ull-power communication mode for the duration of the 7 messages instead of = (7+15) messages or is there any other benefit i=92m missing ? Given that th= e radio was in full power mode along with a =93fully-primed=94 TCP connecti= on from the UA to the PS, are we really saving any significant energy by no= t sending those 15 messages ? Also there does not seem to be anything that = stops a particular AS from gaming the system and sending all its messages w= ith =93high=94 urgency. My main goal here is to understand what precise benefit we are providing wi= th the Urgency header. Regards, Darshak --_000_D32C044EA68Edthakorecablelabscom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

In reviewing the 04 version, I was hoping for some comment/clarificati= on on the Urgency semanics:

Section 6.3 - Urgency header<= /div>

The last paragraph - =93An ab= sent Urgency header field indicates that the request is to be forwarded at = =93normal=94 urgency=85"

I=92m assuming this statement= applies to the =93Urgency=94 header only when it is used by the AS to send= the message to the PS. Correct? An absent =93Urgency=94 header field in th= e request from the UA to PS should result in all messages being retrieved. Am i interpreting it correctly ?

Also in general, i=92m trying= to understand how the =93Urgency=94 header actually works here. Once = a radio is up for communication, you typically want to complete as much of = data communication as possible so that you can go back to sleep for an extended period. If we had the following scenario;=

Three applications have subsc= ribed with the PS so we have a subscription set consisting of these three. = Now the following messages are sent

AS1 -> PS : Sends 5 messag= es without the Urgency header so all 5 are =93normal"
AS2 -> PS : Sends 2 messag= es with =93high=94, 5 with =93low=94 and 5 with =93very-low"
AS3 -> PS : Games the syst= em and sends 5 messages with =93high=94

Now before AS2 sends any mess= ages, if the UA polls the PS with the Urgency set to =93high=94, it doesn= =92t get any pushes. If the UA polls the PS subsequently after AS3 sends th= e messages again with Urgency set to =93high", it will receive 7 messages (2 from AS2 and 5 from AS3). The other 15 messa= ges (from AS1 and AS2) remain outstanding. 

In the above scenario, the pe= nding 15 messages may expire before getting delivered and requiring the PS = and AS# to maintain state, deliver back =93expiration=94 receipts and retry= delivery (this cycle may happen a couple of times). Is all this complexity only to allow the device=92s radio to be= in full-power communication mode for the duration of the 7 messages instea= d of (7+15) messages or is there any other benefit i=92m missing ? Give= n that the radio was in full power mode along with a =93fully-primed=94 TCP connection from the UA to the PS, are = we really saving any significant energy by not sending those 15 messages ? = Also there does not seem to be anything that stops a particular AS from gam= ing the system and sending all its messages with =93high=94 urgency.

My main goal here is to under= stand what precise benefit we are providing with the Urgency header.


Regards,
Darshak
--_000_D32C044EA68Edthakorecablelabscom_-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:56:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D6D12D6CC for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJHvyHWzZg-L for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x234.google.com (mail-ig0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2478712D6C1 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f1so160502937igr.1 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OFMrTUaZ6JtKnGg6UVUykuwq+sEdJH2VgzL4X9yWy1k=; b=R0Ec+zrx/yoYjshXVlEjvcRQ7vKXwtcdEhi0AD/AuGS2wz388g3QjPfgwrsmm4pPrY vVaot6SEDJGpZw1v4pMFn6debuNIcZHA6oE/5u7VTGB3yI26I04iEKAE6zxBXX8y9Bkp P56N5viUJawYFBiHzDPB7oVdMeRZiYObpdWDyklutgBerEC4dEfGg7LlDrKtq1XLgGBK pf5tuLtaiQ5tgfxuoSE7mPP+/Q8c1LPICWOFwnJfUSdlQ+ZINZzy/V6Rxje71SvbEKRI LV7IolBm/9IZdwssDUOPP6sqp2V+Rt6szlO/OOis0+Rnt0BpqkgXThUmk5VeQUvBzwQg ++tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OFMrTUaZ6JtKnGg6UVUykuwq+sEdJH2VgzL4X9yWy1k=; b=XoZvTUjBqPMzaSZ+4ixn/oZRQk7E6TkYuhUkrHVnJ3AP1nezcqLG+NAEdx+XHZt2SY z3JY/FfEnP+bxdLBALNEYJON8PZEZ0AWqP0f9zrjytw0ehFUjLKlx+42Qc3re25Ft+zy XgNITT5Df1gnj0nbujwCgzxwUtVzgPReQsS4HuNpvTlDXRmZ/C5SsynR1NFxaBr+fHHz e0fc2O6ustz/xMY25t8eEJTQdBevxeMCsMjPNGh9oHyM2hbIwXpm3bNqlq7iUBRZBtgS 4ZLRe8G7z7imk4a/9JNObi5rZcSjPVVrktZOKGTsPHmCbwrb9QA+24w5MJT/gLrBTRK4 VO2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKURiXE+0s4sHpOVGjui72JEFjf6NpmbSzdrN3nwrpLtLozuT9veJmZO7tCxlE7hUj8HUMj0Glm9ItNaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.23.80 with SMTP id k16mr31693234igf.94.1460055356490; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.5 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:55:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:55:56 -0300 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Darshak Thakore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:55:59 -0000 A timely question, or set thereof. I was most of the way through https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/82 1. The UA should be able to filter out messages of lower urgency, the above PR clarifies that point. 2. We can't stop an AS from gaming the system, but we could treat too many high-urgency messages as a DoS attack (more on this later) 3. There are cases where accepting messages entails more work than would be ideal. There are some messaging channels where the delivery of a certain amount of data causes a dramatic increase in cost. For example, the paging channel in a cellular network. On 7 April 2016 at 15:34, Darshak Thakore wrote: > Hi all, > > In reviewing the 04 version, I was hoping for some comment/clarification = on > the Urgency semanics: > > Section 6.3 - Urgency header > > The last paragraph - =E2=80=9CAn absent Urgency header field indicates th= at the > request is to be forwarded at =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D urgency=E2=80=A6" > > I=E2=80=99m assuming this statement applies to the =E2=80=9CUrgency=E2=80= =9D header only when it is > used by the AS to send the message to the PS. Correct? An absent =E2=80= =9CUrgency=E2=80=9D > header field in the request from the UA to PS should result in all messag= es > being retrieved. Am i interpreting it correctly ? > > Also in general, i=E2=80=99m trying to understand how the =E2=80=9CUrgenc= y=E2=80=9D header actually > works here. Once a radio is up for communication, you typically want to > complete as much of data communication as possible so that you can go bac= k > to sleep for an extended period. If we had the following scenario; > > Three applications have subscribed with the PS so we have a subscription = set > consisting of these three. Now the following messages are sent > > AS1 -> PS : Sends 5 messages without the Urgency header so all 5 are > =E2=80=9Cnormal" > AS2 -> PS : Sends 2 messages with =E2=80=9Chigh=E2=80=9D, 5 with =E2=80= =9Clow=E2=80=9D and 5 with =E2=80=9Cvery-low" > AS3 -> PS : Games the system and sends 5 messages with =E2=80=9Chigh=E2= =80=9D > > Now before AS2 sends any messages, if the UA polls the PS with the Urgenc= y > set to =E2=80=9Chigh=E2=80=9D, it doesn=E2=80=99t get any pushes. If the = UA polls the PS > subsequently after AS3 sends the messages again with Urgency set to =E2= =80=9Chigh", > it will receive 7 messages (2 from AS2 and 5 from AS3). The other 15 > messages (from AS1 and AS2) remain outstanding. > > In the above scenario, the pending 15 messages may expire before getting > delivered and requiring the PS and AS# to maintain state, deliver back > =E2=80=9Cexpiration=E2=80=9D receipts and retry delivery (this cycle may = happen a couple of > times). Is all this complexity only to allow the device=E2=80=99s radio t= o be in > full-power communication mode for the duration of the 7 messages instead = of > (7+15) messages or is there any other benefit i=E2=80=99m missing ? Given= that the > radio was in full power mode along with a =E2=80=9Cfully-primed=E2=80=9D = TCP connection from > the UA to the PS, are we really saving any significant energy by not send= ing > those 15 messages ? Also there does not seem to be anything that stops a > particular AS from gaming the system and sending all its messages with > =E2=80=9Chigh=E2=80=9D urgency. > > My main goal here is to understand what precise benefit we are providing > with the Urgency header. > > > Regards, > Darshak > > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > From nobody Thu Apr 7 12:44:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675F812D149 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:44:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kDqDsA0S8xt1 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4ACF12D157 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x229.google.com with SMTP id o126so84370475iod.0 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=lGV201AtHCpdD1MiUJY0+Gb4uBB69oukAU9Z+L3wMfA=; b=MAHsx2bdk/wlWAgWAL2xeKuNBAbcPq2aMcW4AUXbEjV5GvS3Km5xeC4P2r88JWpXzp 38QlXdpBxpb465Lir0a0wgWHPo29D+f+qwQJU1l7wpi9yMxDsCm4cSEDbgb4wShoBN/d mR0XzG0+QzwP6S//xv387OMRPtMd8a8xFF0LXzegizAiuM7wChmSvhP72x6km9Vghxy4 kpLudk+jmha7n3KbL1FUhPT28uI8k22s9Ki9525Gz8a4kXTjVQib/CR8ar2Vfna1EzuZ sdMmPhhkIZZ/xfAtPev25j5IGa3D6LjFOG+vgRLfe+QRlWhS3RTxs4Nxeuxf2i1JLM6F kTQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=lGV201AtHCpdD1MiUJY0+Gb4uBB69oukAU9Z+L3wMfA=; b=k/jbuw0YvNUwqH38IqLbSnS182alqF5NTrX6pNvsM6UaqBnJZe44L8CbFyLe7kXNLG IIxr+MnrTnDrauY1gCJ+a+XCe/JvH0ivMJHkW0+iFUUEJziKeEPz1CTPF0wv1Lv6rcCV Ds81JVGCZXBdxqVEF4UDc7Xt1I7H6FILufYVntV94m8+rO00YYv+uRSI9oCzTwcKIYMA Ow5k+Saw8gKXxYjG2LmbmnsX5BsgA/dZ/bXheGqLeGNKzC/tr3Nf9la7OorPFjoxlGbj eZPDZz0mIp6m/QyaT3o4sycCQEvHGvnFfjzmF1rTnU7j3jh9tX6Fojp1CwhPQmmGGg7Y Jytg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKMBeHKaC1b+C5eyvT9u0iPC7A9uJw95GDdLdFp4F2iCKqWkibjaOut0r+sAfBT4YyyJlxR8KvTrEkHWQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.166.72 with SMTP id p69mr5392171ioe.100.1460058262253; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.5 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:44:22 -0300 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "webpush@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] bad application servers X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:44:24 -0000 Darshak asked about bad application servers in relation to setting urgency too high. This is a DoS attack and can be remedied by removing a subscription. A user agent also has the option of doing this if it sees that there are many unwanted messages being delivered. This is something that we do in Firefox already. We detect that messages are unwanted by virtue of the fact that the user isn't visiting the site. An intermediate alternative suggests itself. If we are able to segregate subscriptions into multiple subscription sets, we could put bad application servers into subscription sets that we don't check often (or we only check with high urgency) depending on our current state. From nobody Thu Apr 7 14:41:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174EB12D1B8 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.931 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WVLIdTmPC9Rz for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5107212D10C for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id u37LfcIV003842; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:41:38 -0600 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:41:38 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:41:36 -0600 From: Darshak Thakore To: Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 Thread-Index: AQHRkPwajeH8WCR2P0CN1n3qeXFXsp9/QNgA///JtAA= Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:41:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:41:42 -0000 Thanks, PR 82 addresses my question around Urgency header usage. Regarding point #2 below, would it make sense to provide some text that declares this as =B3fair-warning=B2 and that PS=B9s should address this (ma= ybe in the security considerations section) Darshak On 4/7/16, 12:55 PM, "Martin Thomson" wrote: >A timely question, or set thereof. > >I was most of the way through >https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/82 > >1. The UA should be able to filter out messages of lower urgency, the >above PR clarifies that point. >2. We can't stop an AS from gaming the system, but we could treat too >many high-urgency messages as a DoS attack (more on this later) >3. There are cases where accepting messages entails more work than >would be ideal. There are some messaging channels where the delivery >of a certain amount of data causes a dramatic increase in cost. For >example, the paging channel in a cellular network. > > >On 7 April 2016 at 15:34, Darshak Thakore wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> In reviewing the 04 version, I was hoping for some >>comment/clarification on >> the Urgency semanics: >> >> Section 6.3 - Urgency header >> >> The last paragraph - =B3An absent Urgency header field indicates that th= e >> request is to be forwarded at =B3normal=B2 urgency=8A" >> >> I=B9m assuming this statement applies to the =B3Urgency=B2 header only w= hen >>it is >> used by the AS to send the message to the PS. Correct? An absent >>=B3Urgency=B2 >> header field in the request from the UA to PS should result in all >>messages >> being retrieved. Am i interpreting it correctly ? >> >> Also in general, i=B9m trying to understand how the =B3Urgency=B2 header >>actually >> works here. Once a radio is up for communication, you typically want to >> complete as much of data communication as possible so that you can go >>back >> to sleep for an extended period. If we had the following scenario; >> >> Three applications have subscribed with the PS so we have a >>subscription set >> consisting of these three. Now the following messages are sent >> >> AS1 -> PS : Sends 5 messages without the Urgency header so all 5 are >> =B3normal" >> AS2 -> PS : Sends 2 messages with =B3high=B2, 5 with =B3low=B2 and 5 wit= h >>=B3very-low" >> AS3 -> PS : Games the system and sends 5 messages with =B3high=B2 >> >> Now before AS2 sends any messages, if the UA polls the PS with the >>Urgency >> set to =B3high=B2, it doesn=B9t get any pushes. If the UA polls the PS >> subsequently after AS3 sends the messages again with Urgency set to >>=B3high", >> it will receive 7 messages (2 from AS2 and 5 from AS3). The other 15 >> messages (from AS1 and AS2) remain outstanding. >> >> In the above scenario, the pending 15 messages may expire before getting >> delivered and requiring the PS and AS# to maintain state, deliver back >> =B3expiration=B2 receipts and retry delivery (this cycle may happen a >>couple of >> times). Is all this complexity only to allow the device=B9s radio to be = in >> full-power communication mode for the duration of the 7 messages >>instead of >> (7+15) messages or is there any other benefit i=B9m missing ? Given that >>the >> radio was in full power mode along with a =B3fully-primed=B2 TCP connect= ion >>from >> the UA to the PS, are we really saving any significant energy by not >>sending >> those 15 messages ? Also there does not seem to be anything that stops a >> particular AS from gaming the system and sending all its messages with >> =B3high=B2 urgency. >> >> My main goal here is to understand what precise benefit we are providing >> with the Urgency header. >> >> >> Regards, >> Darshak >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Webpush mailing list >> Webpush@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush >> From nobody Thu Apr 7 19:35:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0E712D6A6 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNXVxlk23kja for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway26.websitewelcome.com (gateway26.websitewelcome.com [192.185.86.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CC4E12D563 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm5.websitewelcome.com (cm5.websitewelcome.com [192.185.178.233]) by gateway26.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0652D30139FF8 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:34:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator4135.hostgator.com ([192.185.4.147]) by cm5.websitewelcome.com with id feaw1s00c3AKFgo01eay3F; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:34:58 -0500 Received: from [200.61.9.66] (port=10234 helo=[172.16.7.12]) by gator4135.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1aoMG8-000Iyz-Ju for webpush@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:34:56 -0500 From: Shida Schubert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D2A9FADD-F11D-42A7-8994-484FCC925624" Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:34:53 -0300 To: webpush@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator4135.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ntt-at.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 200.61.9.66 X-Exim-ID: 1aoMG8-000Iyz-Ju X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([172.16.7.12]) [200.61.9.66]:10234 X-Source-Auth: shida@agnada.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: c3NoaWRhO3NzaGlkYTtnYXRvcjQxMzUuaG9zdGdhdG9yLmNvbQ== Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] Minutes from Monday's session X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 02:35:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D2A9FADD-F11D-42A7-8994-484FCC925624 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All; Minutes from Monday=E2=80=99s session is available below. https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-webpush = Please comments on the list if you see needs for edits etc. Thanks!=20 Shida as co-chair= --Apple-Mail=_D2A9FADD-F11D-42A7-8994-484FCC925624 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

All;

Minutes from Monday=E2=80=99s session is available = below.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-webpush<= /a>

Please = comments on the list if you see needs for edits etc.

Thanks! 
Shida as co-chair
= --Apple-Mail=_D2A9FADD-F11D-42A7-8994-484FCC925624-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 08:32:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0109912D8E2 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 08:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jI61OiRxZKtd for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 08:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr640106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.64.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4CA612D949 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 08:32:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=1Iz0S6FEUZyD17J5lmr1k+lyzF5P1WIpgxKROSR2ILU=; b=ifhqetOq4KcKSz28HtIdUCiPbTVhYxqjpwO7oSEwa4wsObZhBi2Xh5Wr1xXVXvpz1Phv4ks2yLJizsawiZpgKlT/qMgX47VOyxSkyPl2YaiY1ACib+cKCnuWrGJMjK84/5PVfRmYIHvLMei1M4bEf6UVDwV/GtY+ly9clpiBO3Y= Received: from DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.96.16) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.96.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.447.15; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:32:43 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.96.16]) by DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.96.16]) with mapi id 15.01.0447.029; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:32:42 +0000 From: Brian Raymor To: Darshak Thakore , Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 Thread-Index: AQHRkP8jJ2zK1ZiY0keQctVB4VCZ+J9/CoWAgAAET+A= Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:32:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cablelabs.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cablelabs.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:136:e9f2:d0c9:da44:d7c8] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2d8c983b-c980-412b-98c1-08d35fc306e6 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR0301MB0655; 5:A0bgGu7jFblPvC0TnE42T+soBOhIz5hXCL52pBr66RBOsZP2B6l49P/BmvTl56epuaUjfn1CpA3kknDJoXPnBhKz4RBUfPe68la0AzvG+5CsRc6U5QSZp0lA0qBzRdO7wWqKKprv6ThUUMH8efxtpQ==; 24:bSyisSIYA3kffNMcdxuDUK2hCtnt07Svcz4zGjiP53tBx+k4ZHazD831fZRmeVge/0r80pilgASH1LLyiljOW+f6r8ad3Hejq+4Pp3CDXDw= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038); SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; x-forefront-prvs: 0906E83A25 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(13464003)(377454003)(53754006)(24454002)(10400500002)(77096005)(5005710100001)(10290500002)(15975445007)(92566002)(33656002)(2900100001)(2950100001)(230783001)(86362001)(5002640100001)(3660700001)(5004730100002)(164054004)(3280700002)(19580405001)(5008740100001)(19580395003)(9686002)(4326007)(81166005)(2906002)(99286002)(1220700001)(189998001)(102836003)(86612001)(6116002)(106116001)(54356999)(50986999)(76176999)(1096002)(5001770100001)(87936001)(10090500001)(5003600100002)(122556002)(74316001)(76576001)(586003)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; H:DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Apr 2016 15:32:42.6690 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0301MB0655 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:32:53 -0000 We have existing language for DoS that could be adapted: A malicious application with a valid push URI could use the greater resources of a push service to mount a denial of service attack on a user agent. Push services SHOULD limit the rate at which push messages are sent to individual user agents. A push service or user agent MAY terminate subscriptions (Section 8.3) that receive too many push messages. However - for the issue of excessive high-urgency messages, I'm wondering w= hether the end user would make that decision. If an application server is b= urning the battery with messages that are either not really high-urgency or= excessive in number, then the user would probably identify and remove the = offending client application or reconfigure its settings. Does Mozilla or Google have any experiences to share for this scenario? Thanks, ...Brian -----Original Message----- From: Webpush [mailto:webpush-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Darshak Thakor= e Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2016 6:42 PM To: Martin Thomson Cc: webpush@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-= protocol-04 Thanks, PR 82 addresses my question around Urgency header usage. Regarding point #2 below, would it make sense to provide some text that declares this as =B3fair-warning=B2 and that PS=B9s should address this (ma= ybe in the security considerations section) Darshak On 4/7/16, 12:55 PM, "Martin Thomson" wrote: >A timely question, or set thereof. > >I was most of the way through >https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/82 > >1. The UA should be able to filter out messages of lower urgency, the >above PR clarifies that point. >2. We can't stop an AS from gaming the system, but we could treat too >many high-urgency messages as a DoS attack (more on this later) >3. There are cases where accepting messages entails more work than >would be ideal. There are some messaging channels where the delivery >of a certain amount of data causes a dramatic increase in cost. For >example, the paging channel in a cellular network. > > >On 7 April 2016 at 15:34, Darshak Thakore wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> In reviewing the 04 version, I was hoping for some >>comment/clarification on >> the Urgency semanics: >> >> Section 6.3 - Urgency header >> >> The last paragraph - =B3An absent Urgency header field indicates that th= e >> request is to be forwarded at =B3normal=B2 urgency=D0" >> >> I=B9m assuming this statement applies to the =B3Urgency=B2 header only w= hen >>it is >> used by the AS to send the message to the PS. Correct? An absent >>=B3Urgency=B2 >> header field in the request from the UA to PS should result in all >>messages >> being retrieved. Am i interpreting it correctly ? >> >> Also in general, i=B9m trying to understand how the =B3Urgency=B2 header >>actually >> works here. Once a radio is up for communication, you typically want to >> complete as much of data communication as possible so that you can go >>back >> to sleep for an extended period. If we had the following scenario; >> >> Three applications have subscribed with the PS so we have a >>subscription set >> consisting of these three. Now the following messages are sent >> >> AS1 -> PS : Sends 5 messages without the Urgency header so all 5 are >> =B3normal" >> AS2 -> PS : Sends 2 messages with =B3high=B2, 5 with =B3low=B2 and 5 wit= h >>=B3very-low" >> AS3 -> PS : Games the system and sends 5 messages with =B3high=B2 >> >> Now before AS2 sends any messages, if the UA polls the PS with the >>Urgency >> set to =B3high=B2, it doesn=B9t get any pushes. If the UA polls the PS >> subsequently after AS3 sends the messages again with Urgency set to >>=B3high", >> it will receive 7 messages (2 from AS2 and 5 from AS3). The other 15 >> messages (from AS1 and AS2) remain outstanding. >> >> In the above scenario, the pending 15 messages may expire before getting >> delivered and requiring the PS and AS# to maintain state, deliver back >> =B3expiration=B2 receipts and retry delivery (this cycle may happen a >>couple of >> times). Is all this complexity only to allow the device=B9s radio to be = in >> full-power communication mode for the duration of the 7 messages >>instead of >> (7+15) messages or is there any other benefit i=B9m missing ? Given that >>the >> radio was in full power mode along with a =B3fully-primed=B2 TCP connect= ion >>from >> the UA to the PS, are we really saving any significant energy by not >>sending >> those 15 messages ? Also there does not seem to be anything that stops a >> particular AS from gaming the system and sending all its messages with >> =B3high=B2 urgency. >> >> My main goal here is to understand what precise benefit we are providing >> with the Urgency header. >> >> >> Regards, >> Darshak >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Webpush mailing list >> Webpush@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush >> _______________________________________________ Webpush mailing list Webpush@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush From nobody Fri Apr 8 10:34:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EDF12D0E4 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yIvC49wStO7b for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22c.google.com (mail-ig0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A80D12D96B for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id gy3so40919863igb.1 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=g6KUG8DUVHxOX9hVuKts7rEuI3S0ukMwYz060EjKgmg=; b=T//ysSUMXaqVt9gYsPrAFzujH+TMZQLWMOInIcW2h8QLbtISVCZOnwQVM1pXFZbejL ldpOBcq5UTuomLjx1wM2WhLGmgv6EH+Fif8m42Gml4nmYiMKGKeqMtCuuFt2+skhLeRn s1Tn85ensb0aQMcRORPa91nRVBQvjBqlr1FKad5ui7tBNdD6YmmmmB+nS96XUMjbRP6T Nr6WtFFwt38eIPZ/i/nzovc1E4UkGvyCV8lgc7/p+pNVlqb+k/yfeUEzuvwztXceZefq RZnLsKYHQfOwWI0l3iTDdAYlYunXkURBN/x6XliS5uutS9N2S/9/xRwAx1yDYw1HDGrF 74Ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=g6KUG8DUVHxOX9hVuKts7rEuI3S0ukMwYz060EjKgmg=; b=R68Y4E+aZ+ugx6MXUDxrUrzFTmP09iDSN4oQHhb/GRIvFuFFE3qncPHuK593vsMyN8 +ndEGt6m3NDXymWUyd47aGw27KMeT1I5qt09CTTXeodgQyF/hu/AEuwvnHkauU8Smur3 t7mhoW17m2EBRZStwrhm7M27IzmpMoeBwfKVUjPhbAYBz3CGfIdVY8eMlqPS+13nUpic 4d0AIw6YB1+x7ElT2pXKl3Y9oRnNdM3ZVUQivQNFu8In20x2LKy7PvwTr0UKgyQxp3/5 A4uG+ZfLJJGNl4F/Fam8DD9CE5apMCeG46KyfLYyZGrmSkTGp0WfvNUY8nt5gDB+ym87 Eq9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIabo2r0p/JpQkBwO/TbBe6lKG5TGIp005Zn+jWpgNZFjT5DshYFJjuaeuDgkRNnlrfGboiEW3HZgXsqw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.23.80 with SMTP id k16mr5275442igf.94.1460136857419; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 10:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.5 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:34:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:34:17 -0300 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Brian Raymor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Darshak Thakore , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] question on Urgency semantics in draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-04 X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:34:31 -0000 On 8 April 2016 at 12:32, Brian Raymor wrote: > Does Mozilla or Google have any experiences to share for this scenario? We don't have much data to share at this point. However, as I noted, we do have safeguard mechanisms in place to deal with this. From nobody Wed Apr 13 18:34:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietf.org Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD9612DA3C; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:34:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.19.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160414013409.17397.8843.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:34:09 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: webpush@ietf.org Subject: [Webpush] I-D Action: draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-00.txt X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 01:34:10 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Web-Based Push Notifications of the IETF. Title : Voluntary Application Server Identification for Web Push Authors : Martin Thomson Peter Beverloo Filename : draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-00.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2016-04-07 Abstract: An application server can voluntarily identify itself to a push service using the described technique. This identification information can be used by the push service to attribute requests that are made by the same application server to a single entity. This can used to reduce the secrecy for push subscription URLs by being able to restrict subscriptions to a specific application server. An application server is further able include additional information the operator of a push service can use to contact the operator of the application server. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-webpush-vapid/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Apr 25 17:02:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA1A12D0E8 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hiIbU9AsaebB for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63E0612B01B for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id u185so1572884iod.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=ZJdJqIQIlHYDK5P1FyAnUzuoJU49Yz7kmtQcKga3VVs=; b=B/W0nip96QXnSWgkH2XO/Lmo3b2WT7XVqyvCotB6SpWYROXPvheTOKdJ8TrVmYXLPb XhIngSTyXiKdF4FtQHoWxivLq+rDGdY+IAvGR/364VgMSb6x/eIdLdKonyIARAaH5BSU 07okCZHlkEft4QX5On4QsqAyzXoEA/rNBXTGZ/AaMiuYyLYJ60dh1ou4usoRPs8qS7nu SPllqxNkQi1Cpcm+T3E5Gh7l51/lvncGmkEsPEZeMcEZU4S8TrNh7QZLpVi1DynzUcRG 8JI1yGxfmME7mt8BrasgvOfQtA2PJVcKWq1/KKPkbpNi0LkB5YvshB7dsTYjDz4VfZDb sAuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=ZJdJqIQIlHYDK5P1FyAnUzuoJU49Yz7kmtQcKga3VVs=; b=kMCztTsVDb0mgKvBLr1PG2S517rxgiO//C7RbzT2x/T5uF7gIr1Q4uENRsYjQx+HEE jwFq2b7vkZRar31vw0YYPH0kgi2sX6rLcgs4/gFlYG2j59w51X5f7fv+tq/Yzwx6jd9d 9lhXyvBziUe7QR1X73YduD7RD+SBpszEC9Vz7MJbmx7IF6QUJuJq8Lsrm91I7tFO+M6D nnl1jWWdmAD+FET2Eub5bod/7OadBEFBQwZMNQphgYLslmsgk37Yk/XZLjv+Laop3b2G 8+yITWF6qYWZocgp5eqoq94OFw8ewKtWH5EzkTmxV0/JDDzAr+z9EOuTpiC/NsLCyibu JTSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXL9qeWNrX5XyewmLkzB4zn0O74420xyLcB80kuY+hlTTjM7r/qSNPfUQoFNftKpPaAj9arMBD4oxjlDg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.136.76 with SMTP id k73mr99110iod.100.1461628928525; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:02:08 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "webpush@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:02:10 -0000 Not wanting to steal, Brian's thunder here, but this is the change we discussed during the meeting: https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/84 It's good stuff, but there's a small wrinkle I thought that I'd raise: https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/issues/85 In short, Brian's proposed changes to receipts are good, but we need to be clear about how an application server might choose to send a receipt subscription obtained from one push in subsequent pushes. I propose using origin (scheme+host+port). If they are the same, then a receipt subscription obtained from one push can be used with any other push to the same origin. The server is required to understand these subscriptions (or not raise any errors if it can't). From nobody Mon Apr 25 21:47:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B894712B03D for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DY2PwZz91AVl for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 414BA12D0C0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id u185so6518361iod.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:47:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oGB8vZ+RgIvcOF5RHzAxSx8xVQ9QRX8YYuMZfZznr6M=; b=tc1N75tEdJcKe7/AHgNNGQtziV00iihrstpleECoxOWLJ00KuanFiXnzGVQNdekmvB 51zOIU/1+R7MNLSKdtxJhBF0sZ0AvBFioa/SJTIX2tRCL4iJzTwAcCCo3NsjxQtl3XIu zw44ekNdaoXnoHgA6ImLsMJNVfXf2VWz2v5di2sf7RelyLJV1T7NKf1UbkFInX8iGEKB +vORzQSE9fT4014Sgi4krdJpOCfpTFGIiLfeImCOT4XyraUROi4KFr7CNTt5b8+a06MN TAyqMUwflyajDadkKWlBoBSLb8Dn09AEChLVWQKiJ6gUNlN99tVxGlpCpm4YD3kEFWTw 3Lsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=oGB8vZ+RgIvcOF5RHzAxSx8xVQ9QRX8YYuMZfZznr6M=; b=Gzi96uELHrTMfFdDjYMmqqdC+QeIsLcQpJqFtnZ6ELiUsr6lfKRKUKgKaxxXYMC5tp bID4Hxh2l4hnY67ztDLVl4J3ixYIz1RVgpefS5Y7x64zHH6ZkYsNpMwNpX5etByf7SJ7 vzHxiPLSysvzd7Ju/g4mfajU9VbUZqyyR5Jt1vcc73y5/7mueZLJh/mvgg14wgc/+noz 2K8toVsc1B9c7OHHmS1mGM1Dq3o5FcHVPx46oiIJ+iTCErd6DexuQD9TTUCkCJDnNL4h Nsg6F/Fg/rspoAS1YVw/6skLzVsUzXLAiyTR0ngQNb98iT9Q3BpotUTXXZ02glzWfeAB Qkeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUUJb8VvBGNUPnqgZtv9Bfhqu2wI8iBxc0GJeILcqtCrycFuoBwHeoBQJXNNOwOK8KBeVK3gjnkfJ89+g== X-Received: by 10.107.175.227 with SMTP id p96mr1031576ioo.72.1461646060048; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:47:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:30 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson , "webpush@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11445f5a3254f105315bfeb6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:42 -0000 --001a11445f5a3254f105315bfeb6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using VAPID, since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it simplifies the AS logic. Even if a PS doesn't require VAPID - it can still use a derivative of the public key in the receipt URL. Costin On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 5:02 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > Not wanting to steal, Brian's thunder here, but this is the change we > discussed during the meeting: > > https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/84 > > It's good stuff, but there's a small wrinkle I thought that I'd raise: > https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/issues/85 > > In short, Brian's proposed changes to receipts are good, but we need > to be clear about how an application server might choose to send a > receipt subscription obtained from one push in subsequent pushes. > > I propose using origin (scheme+host+port). If they are the same, then > a receipt subscription obtained from one push can be used with any > other push to the same origin. The server is required to understand > these subscriptions (or not raise any errors if it can't). > > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > --001a11445f5a3254f105315bfeb6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Ser= ver is using VAPID,=C2=A0
since the push service can simply use the VAP= ID public key, and it simplifies the=C2=A0
AS logic.=C2=A0
<= div>
Even if a PS doesn't require VAPID - it can still us= e a derivative of the public key
in the receipt URL.
Costin=C2=A0



Not want= ing to steal, Brian's thunder here, but this is the change we
discussed during the meeting:

=C2=A0 https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-p= rotocol/pull/84

It's good stuff, but there's a small wrinkle I thought that I'd= raise:
https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protoc= ol/issues/85

In short, Brian's proposed changes to receipts are good, but we need to be clear about how an application server might choose to send a
receipt subscription obtained from one push in subsequent pushes.

I propose using origin (scheme+host+port).=C2=A0 If they are the same, then=
a receipt subscription obtained from one push can be used with any
other push to the same origin.=C2=A0 The server is required to understand these subscriptions (or not raise any errors if it can't).

_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush
--001a11445f5a3254f105315bfeb6-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:03:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2AD12D09D for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0hzfkcCcFK1 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD8D12B03D for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id bi2so86800136igb.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=kqYHAB3Z7UkQPePRLWLxCl+qDFPyjm5p/jJdNCB2LjE=; b=nrPzpaPG+woyMv0l4Q/FDQPFl5r6ElmIo0qtUBqIaDYljGpJlskfIVELW6LBa5OeVN T/akTHxmHUDetF4jHlze9t6SOqlSFmaxNChW0L7zYB5Dcy68jZ+lZuwPhl8+gyAE5rQE nZ4Pj2XYiAjSZPSWBH0TSQvV106/jRO7LcqKS154H70dMPqAEXf41GV7Y83tgL3f5ZS8 k1COQFkk4wv1WqKK+uvLFBbRRLey+KLxor0VucFNa+32EFMVneTiq2DA52mtY9b/QJeq cpKO/uPP0v59MxsGG+zXf9XcTY9LbSJaHBM/jjjDC7fm4+Hs5hPx2M15uhsE+VX9mKDg LCFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=kqYHAB3Z7UkQPePRLWLxCl+qDFPyjm5p/jJdNCB2LjE=; b=N2o0VixT3xex1ge3pI1GyNRlbDO5NKLPV91Q3OVVqIkR5JZeIUEjsOrCiERLdl4lQz n5YnjqQbUT2r8/gTtzvfDAARLIkrpDfeYbyXcjDC+QKJyyeS0cGptraCj2Y44BqJLtxM VNw4WBZzdEG27ThK35mb11kHCyw7WtddSTM5FjQ+vrNq+0gWZMdDzt+HJW5kmlv4bDhh /NrwydiW32JKJ6SL44rw/dVwq5/n7aeqSl7a/uD+WV8EmtvQFCBp32DCJ0MaY1x8FUBY wxrJEVIDIHH7g3YSfM0eOkA3OpFRnEsTESK1sZfLdGXNgOetvMdJn0Tk9y9Pvyi07x8W NS4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXevjRiPo0R3OjZjSHnq00S/nPg03In12poutH8P7ydcmDkv7IPC9SHfVIXkROWhNxYn2ZMoDEangN41A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.111.15 with SMTP id ie15mr1189732igb.94.1461647031062; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:03:51 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:03:53 -0000 On 26 April 2016 at 14:47, Costin Manolache wrote: > Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using > VAPID, > since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it > simplifies the > AS logic. I was talking primarily about what the application server has to do to decide what to send. If this were solely rate limiting, I'd agree. The choice to send 429 can definitely use the token. The problem is if there are multiple application server instances and the push service decides to send the same subscription back to two different instances, then things might break. The inclusion of the receipt subscription in the request is permission to merge receipts. The push service shouldn't merge receipt subscriptions without permission. From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:18:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A65D12B039 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GdIf4hFfGueV for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7A4C12B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x229.google.com with SMTP id f89so6051567ioi.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=P8abdA77foFaky7Abh8RxOVRZaUNV6csqCSBCzDPAFI=; b=0tMr38pMmTn2pPnYD0rMayJk/cg5CUy7nugDdXgeg9BEF1DYhul0a8rK6cssdVNB5s NdPX9kQvz2noOPPhX7cEojMjSMozu1MnJf8jvuxqPKbyhwXUIbP9jQrBbtjW+RLtjPWh RHmBcmp+0e/J3FepsXgwRXDGXjD0qdFHo+V5urL1HiRkRkXodH95KNq46ffEPxn2/i+9 t5A5Uiv6jE3RuyKKwbW70kQC30mvicu1uhgJCVmUXrGOIIGacUg5nyhCkNsj1NvD4wUS v+KobyJdG9kaUFAWUUFgbRjsBGUJEzMidIbpTbwObEdHfzPuRbnY/ra+gSJXppQo7Ic1 oxfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P8abdA77foFaky7Abh8RxOVRZaUNV6csqCSBCzDPAFI=; b=cOxcewIJzOqMtCDX8kMWtVilrPfX9jNlbURk2Le9WkNQFXGbh0hgQa9iisZRo6atDb 57iQUqVIDcxcQnNKUEwsSl9tuVCr4DO07uGU6QR3JyiQjD/1Xwo3Arj3m1ZWCLV+ev23 tmpJnBMVZLM4k1F4vciI//wMob5Jbyomf93yYSr3lF6TxlCSs8w97Tx0/luO2CkaUlis NPFQ2bT+N/3a6E4RiR1Ed0uVeWk4sC8n1dM4KzWNRoLwWJ1T/tXtJy1ZIQks3EL/zm2b eGxTfqyeGIzv2el5NloPd5hj9VoGTy3ifBXRxG6aswZxdbIth6o/TznDc0FaRaNvQLvz j3mQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWuYnUxIrBFzprjGaD8Knv24M4o7MEdDeRDUtiy8jvNIEbhNbj0WGoYtUaTa5YMquE/4AFVDiH5+qtA6A== X-Received: by 10.107.173.69 with SMTP id w66mr1273145ioe.182.1461647915350; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:18:25 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114464f4c801cd05315c6c8a Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:18:37 -0000 --001a114464f4c801cd05315c6c8a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a different receipt set for each instance ? That may be problematic for many reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restarts. I would expect most PS will want to be able to load balance across multiple connections from AS, and deliver receipts locally, i.e. if a device is in EU to use AS connections in EU (if the AS has connections in different regions). And if an AS instance restarts, receipts would go to the remaining. Costin On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:03 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 26 April 2016 at 14:47, Costin Manolache wrote: > > Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using > > VAPID, > > since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it > > simplifies the > > AS logic. > > I was talking primarily about what the application server has to do to > decide what to send. > > If this were solely rate limiting, I'd agree. The choice to send 429 > can definitely use the token. The problem is if there are multiple > application server instances and the push service decides to send the > same subscription back to two different instances, then things might > break. The inclusion of the receipt subscription in the request is > permission to merge receipts. The push service shouldn't merge > receipt subscriptions without permission. > --001a114464f4c801cd05315c6c8a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a diffe= rent=C2=A0
receipt set for each instance ? That may be problematic for = many=C2=A0
reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server rest= arts.

I would expect most PS will want to be able = to load balance across
multiple connections from AS, and deliver = receipts locally, i.e. if a=C2=A0
device is in EU to use AS conne= ctions in EU (if the AS has connections
=C2=A0in different regions). And if an AS instance restarts, receipt= s would
go to the remainin= g.

<= span style=3D"line-height:1.5">Costin=C2=A0
=C2=A0


On Mon, = Apr 25, 2016 at 10:03 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26 April 2016 at 14:47, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wro= te:
> Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using=
> VAPID,
> since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it
> simplifies the
> AS logic.

I was talking primarily about what the application server has to do to
decide what to send.

If this were solely rate limiting, I'd agree.=C2=A0 The choice to send = 429
can definitely use the token.=C2=A0 The problem is if there are multiple application server instances and the push service decides to send the
same subscription back to two different instances, then things might
break.=C2=A0 The inclusion of the receipt subscription in the request is permission to merge receipts.=C2=A0 The push service shouldn't merge receipt subscriptions without permission.
--001a114464f4c801cd05315c6c8a-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:23:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EAA12B039 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nlaojVSzfuQH for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F6C12B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x230.google.com with SMTP id u10so31949967igr.1 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fY4FN2LWMWBtZLXXGThmCyvNa24KuBAc6N3hotsVFRg=; b=F1zgAyrYlT263LC+ABm32wjZOrVKd+8DxJwKM6gFdB42Z04KebTig1U9kESXhOD6RF jQnGyVFOV0CxmrSvodAML2O6KjKPd//nOGwnQWS7nxZFEjsDFT59RsvlgO4AznsthYjL IY/4u2grIumHvWu8ktMM4MCZE0UFPVRPi+VHa4hvg+O51ZMQ+r2sQEYnzLdkUFZeO6aj IvVrbfDM0LHRvlfRp/i97ckViWa5+738sUUtNZ7uu59n67grPQ/2Kbo0dIgaWN8+yT43 hZCnt+53f7xMC5OYqQQyJVQh4suWqN/dG3Y4v6XdStTA9Hy/7YMKatRm8hUuC4jfCZNX TB4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fY4FN2LWMWBtZLXXGThmCyvNa24KuBAc6N3hotsVFRg=; b=CjGk8DVAcEQI8wXvp3kkB1VptoiXH9N3X5U5ajFyslrmOgVXF/7ZPo/ecqkoKy1/H+ QNdIZQITTLGajMUFSrCtvAJ0JtPMBJLB1DgSVtgRh6RMOV9ADnRGNrRCcMbc2e0Jl/XL zCjU+mwSdw6ia2xH2Qv+xLJ8aByVR+LzIXQaVfT0Y374iwr62jKEk71/Vf3D2f3OWOU3 6qoLD/F4DueGCWUyJUpPSNw0/TovoChk5fNqEQNZd5W0RtfODgMgWCflhq9PqJuoXGEH PFxCQ3hvBJIEE1jqifuSLSUOMKEilH8VxfhKEcdtZZCEVl3RqoH1C0efMzHFHsrIuZxT 4FSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVJkMbhOavekSYlGZJqJwvybq804xBCW0C7vBu6IIs9NLJqfQBLVB5TYMaVhyi/LgPsyT+CS7WsijAFZQ== X-Received: by 10.50.141.193 with SMTP id rq1mr16853369igb.39.1461648177709; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:22:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:22:48 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cbd686b4c4205315c7ca6 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:22:59 -0000 --089e013cbd686b4c4205315c7ca6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Reading more closely - I think it is fine, the PS is free to return a different receipt URI, regardless of what is included. So a PS requiring VAPID can just return the same URL, based on VAPID. Costin On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:18 PM Costin Manolache wrote: > You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a different > receipt set for each instance ? That may be problematic for many > reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restarts. > > I would expect most PS will want to be able to load balance across > multiple connections from AS, and deliver receipts locally, i.e. if a > device is in EU to use AS connections in EU (if the AS has connections > in different regions). And if an AS instance restarts, receipts would > go to the remaining. > > Costin > > > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:03 PM Martin Thomson > wrote: > >> On 26 April 2016 at 14:47, Costin Manolache wrote: >> > Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using >> > VAPID, >> > since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it >> > simplifies the >> > AS logic. >> >> I was talking primarily about what the application server has to do to >> decide what to send. >> >> If this were solely rate limiting, I'd agree. The choice to send 429 >> can definitely use the token. The problem is if there are multiple >> application server instances and the push service decides to send the >> same subscription back to two different instances, then things might >> break. The inclusion of the receipt subscription in the request is >> permission to merge receipts. The push service shouldn't merge >> receipt subscriptions without permission. >> > --089e013cbd686b4c4205315c7ca6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reading more closely - I think it is fine, the PS is free = to return a different receipt URI, regardless
of what is included.
So a PS requiring VAPID can just retu= rn the same URL, based on VAPID.

Costin=

On Mon, Apr 25,= 2016 at 10:18 PM Costin Manolache <= costin@gmail.com> wrote:
You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a differen= t=C2=A0
receipt set for each instance ? That may be problematic for man= y=C2=A0
reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restart= s.

I would expect most PS will want to be able to = load balance across
multiple connections from AS, and deliver rec= eipts locally, i.e. if a=C2=A0
device is in EU to use AS connecti= ons in EU (if the AS has connections
=C2=A0in different regions). And if an AS instance restarts, receipts w= ould
go to the remaining.<= /span>
Costin=C2=A0
=C2=A0


On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:03 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com= > wrote:
On 26 April 2016 at= 14:47, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seems reasonable - but it should be optional if an App Server is using=
> VAPID,
> since the push service can simply use the VAPID public key, and it
> simplifies the
> AS logic.

I was talking primarily about what the application server has to do to
decide what to send.

If this were solely rate limiting, I'd agree.=C2=A0 The choice to send = 429
can definitely use the token.=C2=A0 The problem is if there are multiple application server instances and the push service decides to send the
same subscription back to two different instances, then things might
break.=C2=A0 The inclusion of the receipt subscription in the request is permission to merge receipts.=C2=A0 The push service shouldn't merge receipt subscriptions without permission.
--089e013cbd686b4c4205315c7ca6-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:23:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCCC12D09B for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TVeY7ah7OuO2 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C66E12B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id f89so6114485ioi.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=dU5pSahiDMKxLZFjF/yKXibKHXVBme9kggG8++HTNPw=; b=Jk0zcGG6Yhl24iaIC/Ez55d4M7Sz42/yw51t19rfqEqb9bTbQsVMMV92M530fUcHYD b8N+vup9pCWl9+jUGf9VNla3MJmjNwxBzdUJyu9Q3R52gZku8mPwdebRIr6OgvS2ZOua fjekwjOdPdKYwbGuVpcSmyb/LtaOcBv+87L1/ntA/mpK58i6S9u5sfKjqne9WsbaY9w4 XqxHTvnznNKM4zFmsC/W+u7ApuZeySbudbnlvR3B0bW5xrie8Pun+PGcgNoim7j+qMDn KTTsuJ0XUt/n4p7yCEQqfFKid7KcC8zVVZhzPfb52uwVfyC1OAS3bZbp3cX8VWGbsbs1 iQMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=dU5pSahiDMKxLZFjF/yKXibKHXVBme9kggG8++HTNPw=; b=TVXMtFmXFmzxouf1PuzGl7q3HcJBQBHEk65BDwcKOZ21oXN6ICwZYyqjFZUveGMWQF oRnIfEOeGnRiCNgJR9dx3Ul0y+5ROIPbRQ7MLtNXr36KL47fVNMKuh404IlnLJHnw3SR SwJLsAfLQrNDzlW0hD2y/ANMNDom4+A298mxVWYxgF38JLJwZwxSuvvVcaGIcFEbwkYJ W80rn0M7gilEUn44UUhI9ilZhzkZ6x59/OHmEkKxRHab3wSIajv5BO+5gjY8i0FEWDuI ndr/N3U77LfhhV/wyKD/e2UEBxGso4j69Ti+J2F833fK4OHVs8bniIXgyuWjnQuhy3N8 +NBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUUpFBSM3WQRiQb3qzvKOXHujpK2oS0LnY8PEhKfstWJQItw9dGo8LNIUlT7PFIaA2/lMis8qvU5hTUxg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.59.85 with SMTP id i82mr735231ioa.108.1461648183722; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:23:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:23:03 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:07 -0000 On 26 April 2016 at 15:18, Costin Manolache wrote: > You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a different > receipt set for each instance ? More likely one per data center/region. An application "server" might want to ensure that receipts go to the DC that generated the push message. > That may be problematic for many > reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restarts. Acknowledged. Most of those just fall into the "stuff we deal with when writing software at scale" bucket though. From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:26:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C747412B039 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUVHc8_JJ5Ah for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8BA212B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x233.google.com with SMTP id bi2so87117062igb.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3UpJ52xtyyRKBMgHhuwjWxdqYq9iQ3UplIG7/Ttq3mE=; b=PIyn3a5HQ8OCmyBALLzb+P3zC7Pidkal1OBFihnEheWnLvPnKOxcaipYirIPBA1LVB SICgW3ir+1P9CLOtBGWnQGKsbv1mtY+vR/SLX9g5mdOAxuHGSo+NRZvpMMH9y9y1jp5l I+rbAUuZZ1BRaJUvZan6jUCQv99OVPpxj2UWK96fldj/4Y9SKuag2IWqIMGO77G0OTgH wz5/iJJ0ClWH9Tjtu09nSCrCVYUBFYU0BmzgC6wni/E1gSpiJgbLjb47a5XqqX6xdc+g SV2zA3ErPaTYrRGbaWx56FioFLq8VVAmkyFFJX9N9h1/yUiwGocIzoRyDhggkzKPQ0HH XfPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3UpJ52xtyyRKBMgHhuwjWxdqYq9iQ3UplIG7/Ttq3mE=; b=hTyi+lVKrT6CLnfW4V2TkocfYDR4ArXoozOCLI7rW4k5sM6sWpQFypnkq6sSkBESqT jalIZhFNLoSAlEHP2/MtXM8ePYCT9yZZbROFFb1qnnW/bKnT35R7iwj9uzWA9tjqfGZF rUzYaksJbHAEVPgo5ADhi261cw9i2Yjag2LToC8QJBIMUToI+ruzZSSkafw5xUooJ6ow DTb2lotAcn56bOk6xVG0gUINA32kmrYJSgFIyYO/VNx2A8Ivk0KC2cC23QdDxe0s86ht Sh0v3wTYTyZ2z0muoqGjLFH1BPH6OoJL+pBgo7xyKgNE1gPsALPWHKUD3kKFqywKdj/E LBHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVxRTBSSpGWvsSIM56dCdMMOOoS0bTlkPeIWHxGwORhX2vNVlBkjNuN0NBt8A4Ax5OBK7aLAd7IwJJ4tA== X-Received: by 10.50.15.131 with SMTP id x3mr16910761igc.18.1461648372135; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:26:02 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9340d9701fe5705315c88d6 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:26:14 -0000 --14dae9340d9701fe5705315c88d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:23 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 26 April 2016 at 15:18, Costin Manolache wrote: > > You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a different > > receipt set for each instance ? > > More likely one per data center/region. An application "server" might > want to ensure that receipts go to the DC that generated the push > message. > The wording of the spec doesn't seem to ensure this. I can see some benefits - but also costs :-) Costin > > > That may be problematic for many > > reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restarts. > > Acknowledged. Most of those just fall into the "stuff we deal with > when writing software at scale" bucket though. > --14dae9340d9701fe5705315c88d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Apr 25, 2016 at 10:23 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26 April 2016 at 15:18, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wro= te:
> You mean an AS having multiple instances would use a different
> receipt set for each instance ?

More likely one per data center/region.=C2=A0 An application "server&q= uot; might
want to ensure that receipts go to the DC that generated the push
message.

The wording of the spec doesn&= #39;t seem to ensure this.

I can see some benefits= - but also costs :-)

Costin
=C2=A0

> That may be problematic for many
> reasons - like load balancing, queuing, AS server restarts.

Acknowledged.=C2=A0 Most of those just fall into the "stuff we deal wi= th
when writing software at scale" bucket though.
--14dae9340d9701fe5705315c88d6-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:26:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6744312D097 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RjLRi_VKZDvI for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3927212B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d62so6103173iof.2 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=uuzBMf7/4jfNYQ8wISdNvsPsKlMpdn0CPmPkCp3xG54=; b=FdMtq4YnglRtA8dqXJSn9u5IhWCo3I2C9yx/XLOR7W1yWBoOrc75W3Gp8fvdRpGQjN X8zHEYyyudLbjAk019eTqGgPhiaYBoYEhO43O4ju8CfrawdyeglhgCJhu2z5KTSoCKV0 acG9O/zLAreV1lf+aT7B2Kj64JzAJ0ABa/SAZHTcVUuqWZ+DcZsAfeqrAF1l1Jr8cRms 8x6kLzNR3WrVNgQiHf1joSREz3bbjhGNSuWJh2jJurVVPtzEpNpY3A/ePR9ODkH/LZjr M/pyg5Ky0iD7RJknIY4uhBiF4Cg9DHHTjYC82K0R11+Wvm2QQEeG8V9lIS59tp4giquR fY5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=uuzBMf7/4jfNYQ8wISdNvsPsKlMpdn0CPmPkCp3xG54=; b=cned7DMXMDut0uAIOAe9uFQZTDR24XDHtCAKUcPgm808P9uGCWS7VqpAnrE7aFXTD2 523Zr8qOHGGBeryOB5C20s8KFqH2BXQec77BZMPMEh2YBunVRJumbZgjVMVlxTiv4iN+ 4uyc81wLFZ+r2cXv1mhIxKg+Ck1TnVA2KmPdAUTPRfaNG4xVNkmIN05gOvOWBKKv5lZw K/QAgsslI2ZlzYgi+L/HEAJI4TWcrLSDMuVEnrincjDUoQyr9kQdYeoYYZtTLXtjtMZR 1LhNH7vpmB2YtLktZY0RNUIN9zZDvHhcfltqN9wDw9TMQimcpjAfFe1SYf6Sxl68prGO oYDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW4l33ZwTihUfXq++OflqyE6z4UbhZxWtP+Rbkn3SnN62gdCI+7CUK+QRsfMwTg2Mp3gxwWfT8QxbFWug== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.161.140 with SMTP id k134mr1275873ioe.190.1461648385681; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:26:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:26:25 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:26:27 -0000 On 26 April 2016 at 15:22, Costin Manolache wrote: > So a PS requiring VAPID can just return the same URL, based on VAPID. That's not a rule we have. I'm in two minds about whether we should write it in. If we want to have this happen, we should definitely say that it's possible though. I was imagining a case where you have VAPID tokens issued on a more granular level than you have receipts being routed. Imagine you have one receipt subscription per region, but a single centralized controller of the VAPID key so that all the different regions can be counted by the PS as a single entity. In that case, inferring from VAPID might cause the application server some issues. From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:28:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52C712B030 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZOc9k9rmr9c for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC3D612B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x236.google.com with SMTP id g8so6243913igr.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=aZQedIVXlitdQKRr5XHB3HK3t1m9JQE4scPAzLc2eXQ=; b=d1sbJjA+nQCzG405e9lQNd/Rhr99g5wDhgilTVdJVPxkbY70SF7ALBbLZtMlse4NgV slW0PdQQPlAnXaYf6f/cZZtBrgJ63JmnWIGdMPZp4k4OjiIMxenDlrRHt3bI+3joy16e Itvzz8wGjsBCu33hHE+KQESpcWJR2PCLdAkKEFzT3Z2dpxXQNAFVSnDS45L7GGHtxjxR JyhPLrDK1cMCDc0ItShxKuTI9zkOg6eW8woUOQarPylRTZcgoo3JpCuKVEO/BKQxdTb5 TYADBNQ4T71FqrefNJKbHCSfwJh1bCRugfgcYqOK6WDj3khn0Zf8FAhBCXHBeYF3zWX4 lEJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=aZQedIVXlitdQKRr5XHB3HK3t1m9JQE4scPAzLc2eXQ=; b=cQcME3RKejNM7W0P4iQhJ0I5405HF4XzfG5mVqYwrb+7Uae/qCq4SACKYCJtXxJK11 Ps3d6/8CDoHVcn4gBv0gVMCixYGPvblzBKQ7sEDhSRYnQgGSerEwjY9DwPP2H5pTf8oo DVxhPwYVd5mBeYFPZi/GFvExdCeqoKpl7RWa26YEzOSkuT10b1rHU0HR9zt1nSEM+JWu qbtXFgyHrxiK26Iy3VA9R2Go2auOI9RLXqBVpQ9Dqflu6rFsn+Hah/ZRF5U/GmOtyROW Q2sNNebjDfxYQ87wLwpS7TM8wE37+wQS4DyDJnbIvbOhcZwlu8kh4IQA9kobOkxOUqHs RsGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXmADnvbi0FqMH7Hfs+juUhUAypUBdBxeDTcQJIzt00CVmFvoQ4P+51YbXb0FhfmcUEBW0UfuNqzQ4yMg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.59.211 with SMTP id b19mr1275554igr.58.1461648520112; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:28:40 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:28:42 -0000 On 26 April 2016 at 15:26, Costin Manolache wrote: > The wording of the spec doesn't seem to ensure this. Yes. I'm trying to get that clarity now. > I can see some benefits - but also costs :-) Yes. One way of managing the costs is to have the PS reject a push if the number of receipt subscriptions gets too high. Brian has text for that in his PR for that already. From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:33:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAF512B039 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtlfXn25LfLJ for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA45412B017 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id f89so6255618ioi.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TfuJKqWP8I5CwksBiQX7DXY3lrf2ek/WGzYngGV7/ew=; b=TYZV+uQt79//d4WkKopw9OLIbXXOwJqfG5RsfuoHj7lEFdFsL9vKaS9Gaod06nhmIv ScZSAXj2s5aMoovP8vfqFXZc80WDHHKyzfL+dp9J5pAGGEDRvLLawZHT8C6jLMQibj7u pX/gALhLuHppj47h5g9HgXQevPUg857138o24Z7SbiFujnI/Ipvd3UmUBaOkwWx/AxLf 424DbYkZCv842+dO7Ah8qzy4BXbqy+Qlz9WDSBJaozCCPHbErHgIr7k2oGk71AbnQ4Pb YNITzSsjwQVqby8kc0sbZO8EwUyNoB4D+6eS/R15uwUwO1TiXdUs0C5XnAt7O477HKZT ICrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TfuJKqWP8I5CwksBiQX7DXY3lrf2ek/WGzYngGV7/ew=; b=ecXjuyy/Yw1luzrfFfC4+f0GfxZEVic09FO5llFvezMn2zhWsUBIw5lbSCrzAUmtKN Whpo9bzAUNbRQ2dhVSkL8gv36Xl0Ij5EmQ8Z+J3U723ic6i4fHAc7eZIJ01oH6ac8Tyn MdlVgB+7t9wHzBuVnfdW3HhizwhMqHz/sJ6b9rvksKUVzuAhpxzmuH8X9OjJw6Sd//mp 3hOls26aE6uPrX4KLPfnd+yuZhbyQpFWW8gU3Tb8lkG8Pa4ZM21y+v1KtbnyGo00D9qo mOdXuVuksFYb6KtyqLbqNcX+NSHOt5kNaZIY1sjydUMGT4i9IcXO8ldG6XUGArejtZQT NQLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUTxZBdsHw3KLoBI/sMCGHRLNEcmCRbGOa0yqPvbc3SlUTn4T+7Lm6NEPZKpe6dJh7/icfdkSP6Qwt/8A== X-Received: by 10.107.53.87 with SMTP id c84mr1224137ioa.2.1461648779349; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:32:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:32:50 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144939c47967c05315ca0fc Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:33:01 -0000 --001a1144939c47967c05315ca0fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:28 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 26 April 2016 at 15:26, Costin Manolache wrote: > > The wording of the spec doesn't seem to ensure this. > > Yes. I'm trying to get that clarity now. > > > I can see some benefits - but also costs :-) > > Yes. One way of managing the costs is to have the PS reject a push if > the number of receipt subscriptions gets too high. Brian has text for > that in his PR for that already. > Having one receipt subscription per region/DC may keep the number low enough - but there is still the issue of locality. If you send a message in US to a device in EU, should the PS be required to send the receipt back to US, to the same DC, even if there is an AS server in EU, maybe less loaded ? I agree it simplifies some logic on the AS side, but what happens when a DC goes down ? Costin --001a1144939c47967c05315ca0fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Apr 25, 2016 at 10:28 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 26 April 2016 at 15:26, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wro= te:
> The wording of the spec doesn't seem to ensure this.

Yes.=C2=A0 I'm trying to get that clarity now.

> I can see some benefits - but also costs :-)

Yes.=C2=A0 One way of managing the costs is to have the PS reject a push if=
the number of receipt subscriptions gets too high.=C2=A0 Brian has text for=
that in his PR for that already.

Having= one receipt subscription per region/DC may keep the number low enough - bu= t there is still the issue of locality. If you send a message in US to a de= vice in EU, should the PS be required to send the receipt back to US, to th= e same DC, even if there is an AS server in EU, maybe less loaded ?=C2=A0

I agree it simplifies some logic on the AS side, bu= t what happens when=C2=A0
a DC goes down =C2=A0?=C2=A0
=
Costin

=C2=A0
--001a1144939c47967c05315ca0fc-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 22:40:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B3212B042 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HJdfmJ3gW5Cw for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9362012B039 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id bi2so87324443igb.0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=7SpttrKATFenlQJCFmyaOPDML+Qe+w/4gEukQk+IkVE=; b=W0YcPNXvvXSuYYRKOANbwNzIPUJS+Acd4muCaxfp8syGDaMl2tBkyXybI/VYpRx0qp 6JoGGYwXCJBLhYJLcT1QZwzAychHGLKVYz3h8VBUiN2nAwX11rgEoN0sKldy6+Ppo90d 0fey/v++bWdRdIEmS44QIXebG5hmFAQVmEUgPfiZhyIQD//T4yQMzuJuatCa4tRJPqV8 O9h9jZG/xxTkokezteVltyo+0yw3D25A0qE03sQG//bbT+ZIv9bp1DL+S1xmVJ3y7zmX +O99MklaVxDrMoAzcIOkKOHHkhDKxH02oA+d2F//pnGMnoKSBvyBcD4i4uSYZD8Zz+7J B8hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=7SpttrKATFenlQJCFmyaOPDML+Qe+w/4gEukQk+IkVE=; b=IFFAvPJSZXMyglfhIB9lA5sK8LZ2ehrXSULa6S3e0Bh9pospQgqnrCTg00bA+PWDy8 jPigq1EfNP5CvlpY6XE2Q4wHYj9AUva7Y78NM4prsIs9lP87OFRkw6CT3ZRvWO8plC4w cUELkwbpB4KB/Novam0T7+okoOR5fre9EdiAwbm6Jp+h51RTg4GdYx/h+MaYYURkMCpr norx65J15pkTcoUTU7EEzWbhGOfFp9yHoRYeRBDLsXPSr8i584lWPdcbJGO14jvejIsQ EQ0pgDAr+KDI0sAQDPxPHaiuu7406jbW9728B/XjM9I7evrc9XWDI7keHDAfPSFC6BbV pyQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVe60RHBW7oQph4KOWgidjrDLmtxpYCoTxDUb6UXsb4bB8BlOQ9NOg/GWQS7eUzxoq3n62vG6rrq/B+HA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.101.169 with SMTP id fh9mr17373197igb.58.1461649251020; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:40:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:40:50 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:40:53 -0000 On 26 April 2016 at 15:32, Costin Manolache wrote: > Having one receipt subscription per region/DC may keep the number low enough > - but there is still the issue of locality. If you send a message in US to a > device in EU, should the PS be required to send the receipt back to US, to > the same DC, even if there is an AS server in EU, maybe less loaded ? That's a choice the AS gets to make. Maybe they have some regulatory requirements that force a particular structure. In any case, they can always pretend that each region is entirely separate applications and the PS will see them as multiple different clients. > I agree it simplifies some logic on the AS side, but what happens when > a DC goes down ? I don't imagine that this is a free pass for having geographic redundancy on the AS. If receipts are supposed to go to EU and EU disappears, I imagine that US will have to pick up the slack. (More likely that it will be between DCs in a region that this sort of switch occurs, but you get the point.) Maybe think of this less a simplification, but an optimization. From nobody Tue Apr 26 17:29:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4869312D532 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:29:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vmD9X7mPoSr3 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0140.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C890912D52E for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:29:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=NUwYIHqyDphMOnjSPApHAZGnLTqmD22VW/kCH3zxVLs=; b=IGa6pDRCXjg84DqoLdzuKfLdoG5iNjp1hZJbvHb/kf06o9vhpVEURJbUT4xqyad+rr4VIQs9EbOJ3GHU0dv+ltW1Viwf64wXdblPjdkb6YwoRSRqDLdsycokoxmbOEJddk/0dplaIAiX/M6jQq0Zs/Ogx/tFYQBDjjC1p9f9q1o= Received: from CO2PR03MB2407.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.93.137) by CO2PR03MB2405.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.93.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.477.8; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:29:32 +0000 Received: from CO2PR03MB2407.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.93.137]) by CO2PR03MB2407.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.93.137]) with mapi id 15.01.0477.012; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:29:31 +0000 From: Brian Raymor To: Martin Thomson , "webpush@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up Thread-Index: AQHRn07lqbBQG1UN8Ead0PaEULBvX5+c9xVQ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:29:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; 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If there are no further comments, I'll merge the pull request on Wednesday.= I'd like to publish -05 before EOW. Thanks, ...Brian From nobody Tue Apr 26 21:12:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762FB12D531 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:12:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id solEy6JKMOdD for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D54912D59F for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f89so35741519ioi.0 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1jn2bfgAUqjXbeXNYjpvtvvlEuYZg7QW6kdADGYiOB0=; b=stAW0/SZGzX/ak/O/WiBbXo21Z2HTTysTfKVbQwtAFWaNoTtUuUW5g3cJqyPMUSqro xVNzXSZWE7ufDCXEzrkya8A74UwkyqgDU+wP7102Xz0dCEfJ8CR+8VeLb5GSqyZY8V++ DOIu3IzCp2bUP0+tAILvLiq2gEZLmhp3X67//EX2T7hobSvxYpy2PVHyfonnDobiS8bd EKfv6dQiylpOMKOMCVSsOxeMOY2hNCH+acknP3obes08+T/O8wa+Vvuq13lIyGEbhN2/ qKHDjda2UAYJ/n9Yg87tgFNE8sE018XMar/yvr/RSz9jjiCj36MOxQxzgrSUjD2rf+uo CSrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1jn2bfgAUqjXbeXNYjpvtvvlEuYZg7QW6kdADGYiOB0=; b=cZsg/kE8srh8OmJ3AsIxUrlRsd7kFZ5G0z0ZNiOUDZA0vqd3xtIAJjDg4fGnbOme4n ei90KyeGcV/NLl36d8RLQwXp1Tkgq/MpA1UEm9RCQ0fy+RSvINIAdXTYpglt7dKGDdhg GcVQlcSEWf+D3UDegvCN9I23OfJozF82zuiQ1gZJ0DBwQUCPTKIK5QlRe/hoePsgUDJ7 WboKeaHFgk2LSVekMFkVDWeYhjYDCnFkueytgpOBgbp8UlSKF0Bya+UE7OTsk4LwlrkJ YE11TckCkNK76qk4nlh9aFiQQQLG62XweIm/SOzj/RmjL5uwccnkB6p5ogPKGDRbcuU+ G7lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW9uAeQiM4uhSjkLX8Yz8DaFZiBU49DiwtqiBrM1errUYNlZpCTxasDk7xeEYRAltih0Tw9CZe8quc/VA== X-Received: by 10.107.175.227 with SMTP id p96mr7560910ioo.72.1461730330967; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:12:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 04:12:01 +0000 Message-ID: To: Brian Raymor , Martin Thomson , "webpush@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11445f5a22863e05316f9dc8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 04:12:13 -0000 --001a11445f5a22863e05316f9dc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 But I'm not sure we can support the mode that Martin described, so I think we may take advantage of "PS MAY return a new receipt subscription if it is unable to reuse". Buffering and flow control are complicated - the choice is between dropping receipts or sending them to a different DC. I haven't checked, but I think there is no guarantee on saving receipts if AS doesn't have enough ingress capacity. One question for HTTP/2 experts: I assumed the receipt promises are subject to normal 'max concurrent streams' ( and this will be the main mechanism to do flow control/balancing from PS to AS). However I see rfc7540: ... " Note: The client never sends a frame with the END_STREAM flag for a server push." How does the PS know that AS can accept more receipts, and how does it know a receipt has been accepted by the AS ? Costin On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:29 PM Brian Raymor wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 5:02 PM Martin Thomson > wrote: > > > Not wanting to steal, Brian's thunder here, but this is the change we > > discussed during the meeting: > > > https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/pull/84 > > > It's good stuff, but there's a small wrinkle I thought that I'd raise: > > https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/issues/85 > > > > I've adopted Martin's proposal in #85 and made further clarifications > based on the initial review of the pull request. > If there are no further comments, I'll merge the pull request on > Wednesday. I'd like to publish -05 before EOW. > > Thanks, > ...Brian > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Webpush mailing list > Webpush@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush > --001a11445f5a22863e05316f9dc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1=C2=A0
But I'm not sure we= can support the mode that Martin described, so I think we may
=
take advantage of "PS MAY return = a new=C2=A0receipt subscription if i= t is unable to reuse".=C2=A0
Buffering and flow control a= re complicated - the choice is between dropping receipts
or sending them to a different DC. I haven't checked, but I think th= ere is no guarantee
on saving receipts if AS doesn't have eno= ugh ingress capacity.=C2=A0

One question for HTTP/= 2 experts: I assumed the receipt promises are subject to
normal &= #39;max concurrent streams' ( and this will be the main mechanism to do=
flow control/balancing from PS to AS). However I see rfc7540:

...
" Note: The client never sends a fra= me with the END_STREAM flag for
      a server push."

How does the PS know that AS can accept more = receipts, and how does it know
a receip= t has been accepted by the AS ?


Costin

<= div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:29 PM Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com> wrot= e:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 5:02 PM = Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not wanting to steal, Brian's thunder here, but this is the change= we
> discussed during the meeting:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.com/webpush-wg= /webpush-protocol/pull/84

> It's good stuff, but there's a small wrinkle I thought that I&= #39;d raise:
> https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-p= rotocol/issues/85

<snip>

I've adopted Martin's proposal in #85 and made further clarificatio= ns based on the initial review of the pull request.
If there are no further comments, I'll merge the pull request on Wednes= day. I'd like to publish -05 before EOW.

Thanks,
...Brian




_______________________________________________
Webpush mailing list
Webpush@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webpush
--001a11445f5a22863e05316f9dc8-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 21:21:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C19912D59F for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDnuj8qYbQVf for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE71012B05F for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id u185so41521648iod.3 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=nXeW0B89/pDPQT5pcrySlankF/o096yG+gXad5aDe/4=; b=PxxV4+/2mPx/W3qv0Ermfwwow6kDhUBODyQplEISAWcPDJ65BJ3FErAi07fn8Tjq0U HJsLD0RWNOJzjnmBoC1+vuRm+JzfuwIk3wF6HqrYQSVNcsmiT3Pfk6UWp9/gzUGg3lVv Ndm6LszK/+zcoLwYKnt8FzNF6IRtd8W+kVahbPdb5jAIppupwxGZHHcjdqym/vZnuO7x xDCNoxyAAncU5dWGBIfowCDA8U0kJzkwg32N8eJx1NgSv3mTBQe2/OsiS+dWep4aIbYw P12L/LMD/I0zWFrAXW9Xf7KpN2Ge422DF2JVpWQXrGM7HOM9uqCo5DrpEU9UrI2GYtBZ qipA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=nXeW0B89/pDPQT5pcrySlankF/o096yG+gXad5aDe/4=; b=mX0p/psi2sKqBsfq/n5z88Frj9PudUYhHWysEnSxUrP7wD2qN0v3NdbKGlvnXneXvw Jhr1iWKrbvP9i5fY68T7tUeB+kNuKpBKsHV9X++ak2o7TBw9/FnJVxgKxn3xoS1F5Wa9 GmNWLsB8Tgk/4QAYgp9yYxnZ38C8gXz78cGg6BXMNrWXT7WG0VycGEnGWPx/sm/q1tUg iuIOJH/v+B6/Vv0J4ESRcd9RN9AvdrpBR/ienKT1g+M2ZskCi9q9SsvZSFe40m1i99xH yvBBa9sdCXE/K4hQKKEJLvr+cFfRnQib6zshg4/V0HkPuaRmBQnsCztrMTJfkDZRDRFM Onug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU/DcRkgEEoK6Z9wIUkB4I7/v2hqrZ45zTDL/7pSZvGy80ziqSzrRp/W5ewSBXEt4iZRZp+SjX2qG6yLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.59.85 with SMTP id i82mr6947298ioa.108.1461730880190; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:21:20 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Brian Raymor , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 04:21:23 -0000 On 27 April 2016 at 14:12, Costin Manolache wrote: > How does the PS know that AS can accept more receipts, and how does it know > a receipt has been accepted by the AS ? There is no explicit h2-layer acknowledgment of a push. That all happens implicitly with TCP acks and maybe with flow control acks. In HTTP, a server usually doesn't get to learn if its response made it until the client acts on the response in some way. However, in this case, can we request that the application server DELETE (just like the client uses DELETE to acknowledge)? From nobody Wed Apr 27 07:36:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED01412D839 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJJ6eryitUS1 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9624912D837 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id bi2so129628862igb.0 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:36:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vFwweMXElwvwRLcYy3Bo26VVaUyPngZG8nUUA4sRs0Y=; b=iJEwRzxYTCmmUmT74huOcTzjpkF+yKkjtq0BINnn8JsIpoRBEySqBhJ92LPjFO9P18 OGMKbAqU6xWvP7ohq3fbRvWGx+B7+QLOJLSrv2X5GkdIaBsQHjZ68sb77jtqC1zI87cg bhLZDnuYGa0kuNy7fAJy50w4zwlOx+ZV/rI6GtRwb+NW/moHhp7V3l9sa+bbCLWyCDWy 3la5tLxJyjUsOcr/smjbE1gD4uunCu0DUsX/DKlLd+xdb0m9FFfZBAkJM+QAJDPU9Drx C+Gk9PZLp47VnXO0ZQuke5rJQNHG/R65zNT/rsAp2VKHam5oHMTg/XMAqfYlhrlPRvpH 0sZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vFwweMXElwvwRLcYy3Bo26VVaUyPngZG8nUUA4sRs0Y=; b=bvtQ8kntkAjGgGRGSboDZHoK/gLYiR1iPHEXq5D3ry8Z7mKH5bSaRTWFuX0wzgOQ3F 9A7OWNdR+bZuWHS3b2xPnY9Fg42fwCWb2U2DezbsaztIIW+PG05mzw9lFTIDokjN5rVL j6H9BQusf9UZsKx3cn7uScdtjCosbp1bEGj9aAg/qaavD3yOaf9Ms4QPlOb2Ej4izktz AdSr4ATC4eYwipUSh4wYYrF5ZWCsWrjKZMAH3re0SY4IrTfuYhNsWvxMbc/B+dYvPUV8 /WYnp0udBC5tQwAiPOHBPb4kZbfOEqKKHgRpSBAIqHFzqJ6lkVcTvTcC3/OAEeKqbxQX 65Dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWv1xaFT+rUpovYsc+iRklSrGw9y+x589IKB7hS6In2Bse7Lw3A2D/BBCmNBDSAeq3ag4reWoAFfIwrQQ== X-Received: by 10.50.55.34 with SMTP id o2mr3152343igp.18.1461767762918; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:35:53 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c8c140c6ba053178549f Archived-At: Cc: Brian Raymor , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:36:05 -0000 --047d7b10c8c140c6ba053178549f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 on adding a DELETE. GCM does the same in XMPP receipts, with an ack. One problem would be that we'll have an extra RT, since delete requires a response frame - in XMPP it's a one-way ack. I don't know if TCP flow control and TCP acks are enough. How does the HTTP/2 flow control window apply to push promises ? Another option would be to just use regular http and some json or plain text to pull batches of receipts. Costin On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:21 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 27 April 2016 at 14:12, Costin Manolache wrote: > > How does the PS know that AS can accept more receipts, and how does it > know > > a receipt has been accepted by the AS ? > > There is no explicit h2-layer acknowledgment of a push. That all > happens implicitly with TCP acks and maybe with flow control acks. In > HTTP, a server usually doesn't get to learn if its response made it > until the client acts on the response in some way. > > However, in this case, can we request that the application server > DELETE (just like the client uses DELETE to acknowledge)? > --047d7b10c8c140c6ba053178549f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 on adding a DELETE. =C2=A0GCM does the same in XMPP receipts, with an ack. One problem would be th= at we'll have an extra RT, since delete requires a response frame - in = XMPP it's a one-way ack.

I don't kno= w if TCP flow control and TCP acks are enough.=C2=A0
How does the= HTTP/2 flow control window apply to push promises ?=C2=A0

Another option would be to just use regular http and some json or = plain text to pull batches of receipts.

Costin

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016= at 9:21 PM Martin Thomson <= martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 14:12, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wrote:
> How does the PS know that AS can accept more receipts, and how does it= know
> a receipt has been accepted by the AS ?

There is no explicit h2-layer acknowledgment of a push.=C2=A0 That all
happens implicitly with TCP acks and maybe with flow control acks.=C2=A0 In=
HTTP, a server usually doesn't get to learn if its response made it
until the client acts on the response in some way.

However, in this case, can we request that the application server
DELETE (just like the client uses DELETE to acknowledge)?
--047d7b10c8c140c6ba053178549f-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 07:41:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6872812D835 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRdihMnF7eGA for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x231.google.com (mail-ig0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CD9312D827 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x231.google.com with SMTP id bi2so129798327igb.0 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=H0WyOefOa+pteBxpfQEbz8DeAZ9srkaF+BDSIL27Xvo=; b=JFsGRZvO+wyfoqB7enA1rZDvormskfEdmKPd2K/AxeI9Vsn9ykI0Gc4iBPQn6FtlGZ /32/eChWWWS/mBduysEwc1BAmsEpbJqGTX/ljXc7lOzjhRfJW7Fq4gWx4WUudeivboTZ JWHSSdYcIYcXgT6mRzPu0f+U1l88oLlXOb+Q/0zjRXP6jPoxLyJReaCxTnG3uGwhKtE1 PaCXZYWZcOI6DWkUDCSPPKQwuU2Ljx3PUjHkPG7xUh9Nta2Y1WrzGCi5k0ZD9+JobsM4 YsxafQXY8TOU0qHrLfFhY3WceV1KYSOB7zj/c3wXc0hLvW4s5KG9jnrDN+2f4b6SOLNj 9iQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=H0WyOefOa+pteBxpfQEbz8DeAZ9srkaF+BDSIL27Xvo=; b=ZtCl6SxEm9zVuP/B/72C855WiDYQldRamwf7ViVA5nBOakDAp5E+T8kFvQ983UZnHB BHBk1HKfB4zyfsxwg47+2bknNeD+xJeqpv3Nt7+90la2AWoTatdZjUdxF75ynaCzRpjA vd0gyJtRnReiQeXuhk8XXyCLY5PrZkyKbiq48Jke+jQ8+CBOj0T9dP+H0Jb2zSpVZX2X ndYgPDPcGLNcyw7n8O2FX1iqKO5RThtyzl378ASOBjw72dlruwTLf79l7/kpV9mQn85i L5oQ/Q+tHvGhZZdu4Qhw/Z66xB1PTVJ/WAJydDougqJ7tw+3XqG0aHrFD16bwjf0eZPz 6yHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVCgENEcYEvD4LWJj9fw2N39s1TsLSgN34N8d3WgS/c+oOwiUpPMs3I0GbONe3gSz3PmNctcxaQprREQg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.101.169 with SMTP id fh9mr27436230igb.58.1461768095013; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:41:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:41:34 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Brian Raymor , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:41:37 -0000 On 28 April 2016 at 00:35, Costin Manolache wrote: > How does the HTTP/2 flow control window apply to push promises ? It might not have any effect given that flow control only affects payloads and there isn't likely to be a payload. I agree that the DELETE response is redundant, but it's not an inordinate burden. From nobody Wed Apr 27 07:50:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8502612D850 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:50:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjHcvYbFmshJ for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x235.google.com (mail-ig0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EC7612D84D for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x235.google.com with SMTP id u5so12738708igk.1 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:50:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Cf6N+q0Uuz5wSHGbRKyYUw0BlavAuumwY/KiL14OE8o=; b=kLdzzBchBGvhlaYb+EKgjID7U+KqnfZ8hV7wghPhLVZQhXZaOzMeXUAFlKd2L3qaKs tS1w3tRQdvahIWBUg3c7p3s9VrFu2VY+tejOR12zo+zLJmVYQwOuq137VcqW6bZnj8zr 6KQoUv6UH8apD/nwlkREoPKs/unmTce5vvLNHIzwstWiylJ91zwbwyIxg0VEtDWv9NQZ Rngs025ZdI2CRbr0lMMtqca/X7duEzlzqtu+r4kbGlw/tsK/nwMUlgy3S6H64NSZRwZK tG9Q9Gcfbo6OoFE/5aFdA+V5Z7yyxQ5KQ5xabAoNN7UvejzBph0zY1YnS94r9naKjM57 CXkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cf6N+q0Uuz5wSHGbRKyYUw0BlavAuumwY/KiL14OE8o=; b=LZYUSPZjHJ/lNTSJHrduOoLrL3KGg0N92MzTuHaaR5ICtlQ8nm0KGq79eA4nQcF02M H8UDi1dtEHenqJO76Q6xTPo6nIKWbj91/HZaiT5NtIYRlisX6W/Ax+v9SfYV4gljhdcY oZb1L3sdeIaPe+UxIB1edYEdxRU2dOMUvCPE32j0PKsiu7uNzWCz1PC/ty3wCBHMQ9ws 7BFiSPJ3VUFY97PvzIZtYuCQHx+hHOsvclc69+GlbYEvLS8i3OzEmCq3GtjpvPJbFfdG 4jiVmP5bjndG0lvrL0bfsQvhvkJ/SNCJ8Eke9eibYj4vRZumzTJOEqHVhTH7fwHVQuUE f6lA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXVIxbb+4cCBCwS26g/gcFNZu51c5B/04ZSJ5Jc6maKqipJw3IDyuYUL8SqGQ1KmwLqDRM3ez5AzZQ5wg== X-Received: by 10.50.167.2 with SMTP id zk2mr11305814igb.2.1461768642579; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:50:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:50:33 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=485b393aad0faf5386053178884f Archived-At: Cc: Brian Raymor , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:50:44 -0000 --485b393aad0faf5386053178884f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 7:41 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 28 April 2016 at 00:35, Costin Manolache wrote: > > How does the HTTP/2 flow control window apply to push promises ? > > It might not have any effect given that flow control only affects > payloads and there isn't likely to be a payload. > That was my understanding as well - TCP window may help a bit, but there is little feedback for load balancing, and quite tricky to use it right by AS. > > I agree that the DELETE response is redundant, but it's not an > inordinate burden. > Agreed - it does affect the throughput, but more connections can handle this. Costin --485b393aad0faf5386053178884f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed= , Apr 27, 2016 at 7:41 AM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 28 April 2016 at 00:35, Costin Manolache <costin@gmail.com> wro= te:
> How does the HTTP/2 flow control window apply to push promises ?

It might not have any effect given that flow control only affects
payloads and there isn't likely to be a payload.
<= br>
That was my understanding as well - TCP window may help a bit= , but there is little feedback for load balancing, and quite tricky to use = it right by AS.

=C2=A0

I agree that the DELETE response is redundant, but it's not an
inordinate burden.

Agreed - it does aff= ect the=C2=A0throughput, but more connections can handle this. =C2=A0
=

Costin
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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:42:20 +0000 Message-ID: To: Brian Raymor , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11445f5a382e0005317c9ce3 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:42:32 -0000 --001a11445f5a382e0005317c9ce3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The main purpose of the DELETE ( from my perspective ) is to prevent PS flooding the AS, i.e. to provide a form of flow control. Secondary reason is to provide more info for load balancing the receipts across AS connections. Having retry on the receipt would be expensive - I think it would be better to not promise that, not sure about other PS but for us it may be tricky. Retry if a AS connection goes down, or it doesn't ack is ok - but not for the entire duration of the message TTL, and without reliability guarantees, i.e. without database storage. Costin On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:22 AM Brian Raymor wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:21 PM Martin Thomson > wrote: > ... > > However, in this case, can we request that the application server > > DELETE (just like the client uses DELETE to acknowledge)? > > To clarify, you're proposing that the application server delete the same > push message resource that was deleted by the user agent to acknowledge > receipt of the message? If so, something like: > > If the push service receives the acknowledgement and the application > has requested a delivery receipt, the push service MUST return a 204 > (No Content) response to the application server monitoring the > receipt subscription. > > To ensure that a receipt is properly delivered to the application > server at least once, the application server MUST acknowledge receipt > of the response by performing a HTTP DELETE on the corresponding > push message resource. > > If the push service does not receive the acknowledgement within a > reasonable amount of time, then the receipt is considered to be not > yet delivered. The push service SHOULD continue to retry delivery of > the receipt until the advertised expiration of the corresponding push > message. > > > > > > > --001a11445f5a382e0005317c9ce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The main purpose of the DELETE ( from my perspective ) is = to prevent=C2=A0
PS flooding the AS, i.e. to provide a form of flow con= trol. Secondary
reason is to provide more info for load balancing= the receipts across
AS connections.

Hav= ing retry on the receipt would be expensive - I think it would
be= better to not promise that, not sure about other PS but for us it
may be tricky. Retry if a AS connection goes down, or it doesn't ack= =C2=A0
is ok - but not for the entire duration of the message TTL= ,=C2=A0
and without reliability guarantees, i.e. without database= storage.

Costin



On Wed, Apr 27, 201= 6 at 10:22 AM Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:21 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrot= e:
...
> However, in this case, can we request that the application server
> DELETE (just like the client uses DELETE to acknowledge)?

To clarify, you're proposing that the application server delete the sam= e push message resource that was deleted by the user agent to acknowledge r= eceipt of the message? If so, something like:

If the push service receives the acknowledgement and the application
has requested a delivery receipt, the push service MUST return a 204
(No Content) response to the application server monitoring the
receipt subscription.

To ensure that a receipt is properly delivered to the application
server at least once, the application server MUST acknowledge receipt
of the response by performing a HTTP DELETE on the corresponding
push message resource.

If the push service does not receive the acknowledgement within a
reasonable amount of time, then the receipt is considered to be not
yet delivered. The push service SHOULD continue to retry delivery of
the receipt until the advertised expiration of the corresponding push
message.






--001a11445f5a382e0005317c9ce3-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 14:59:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FEE512D55D for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSPa6JYIIb2h for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 527FE12D558 for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Apr 2016 21:59:21.2512 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR03MB2406 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webpush] I-D Action: draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-00.txt X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:59:25 -0000 I've reviewed vapid-00. My earlier editorial comments were all addressed. Martin plans to move vapid-00 to a repo in the webpush-wg. In the interim: Abstract Editorial: An application server is further able [to] include additional information [that] the operator of a push service can use to contact th= e operator of the application server. 1. Introduction By the same measure, requesting the creation of a subscription for push= message receipts has no prior authentication. This will need to be updated when webpush-05 is published. There is no long= er an explicit request to create such a subscription. It's created implicitly as the resul= t of requesting a=20 push message delivery with receipts. 2. 1 Application Server Self-Identification Application servers SHOULD generate and maintain a signing key pair usable with elliptic curve digital signature (ECDSA) over the P-256 curve [FIPS186]. What is the rationale for SHOULD rather than MUST?=20 2.2. Example Authorization: Bearer Is this intended to be WebPush rather than OAuth Bearer (RFC6750)? Push-Receipt: https://push.example.net/r/3ZtI4YVNBnUUZhuoChl6omU When webpush-05 is published, this can be updated to: Prefer: respond-async and a reference to RFC7240 added. *This* equates to a JWT with the header and body shown in Figure 2. "This" meaning the value of the Authorization header? Issue: The first part of the JWT is effectively fixed. Would be it acceptable to require *that that* segment is omitted from the header field? What is "that segment"? 3. WebPush Authentication Scheme Editorial: Therefore, this authentication scheme MUST NOT be used with [t]he 5.2 Using Restricted Subscriptions There are multiple references to a *token* that I do not understand: When a push subscription has been associated with an application server, the request for push message delivery MUST include proof of possession for the associated private key or *token* that was used when creating the push subscription. ... A push subscription that is not restricted to a particular key MAY still validate a *token* that is present, except for the last check. A push service MAY then reject a request if the *token* is found to be invalid. From nobody Wed Apr 27 17:11:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675DD12D50F for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7a8c6t2v5wh for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FAD712D0AD for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x233.google.com with SMTP id s8so7849310ign.0 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=y7/tsKPtrAIP/pOPtS0haAFcwG2uQooubxRQBMDtNDM=; b=fUscCGLfWX6TDFpGJnaPS+z43szjZ67b7DYtWTczOtZa0GqUbRKAIjvhNpKxfA12W1 RC3w5ZPW4J5rDpYtEpjdhmFqggZCFpXyMi7XjLLqbtdSQqvdtRo5a6SZELLWF3ADkqwC b9RcLvS3jDxKMzcq5+W6lTluM9fZV2KP/OIWPML2YOw3s78v5hu+IAvLJhRfoHpTvNpo ki5vBYvdcehDDHRrexIkAEygqwpp7EN6Bx3H+CNIgwiNq4WSyf8xo+jE+44JXxb0Qt4P ptA/cUmDcArc2gk6dvJMeaNQvwC7QKeuYMJ1NoitOqor7u2XS8g5ItX+HRqMzlt2Atf9 2uJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=y7/tsKPtrAIP/pOPtS0haAFcwG2uQooubxRQBMDtNDM=; b=U9Lj+a24z8qmiM6Tuz9XemzOHVztqDnfuCzmlWExodROG6dv5diLGOtOfcoxjejHlc gH7Ur5g2NiE7S+HPzY6FtZLhGswOsEbhgVBuiOo+jFxc2OavfNVt/J59Wze8t8B+KLbF wG0IhzfP/nr2d+5NQCe/BbWcw09DH54mRpZJd8RRp7UywzLdAs6MpEWc9VRej9D3I42j sXj1lEx0YPDcGr1BHXoWoeeyC/FjsmTyIBm8NyjBY0pqMKkxodd3Gbz69hJnTNh8NjTo dBdnfbg4DTUkAB2Y1iXXbGQ/yP98cAqjugV37YtEnGxGk+j0FUNOoTGAsQCjI91kV74M V+Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW143QFDBnn6P2cwcPl0gvL1pBcnVawDIx2Dz9P+hs8wdmvzlzKPOYwC68A59OCb7cVg2OmJT0L+Ifr8A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.59.211 with SMTP id b19mr14477146igr.58.1461802310550; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:11:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:11:50 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Costin Manolache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Brian Raymor , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:11:52 -0000 On 28 April 2016 at 05:42, Costin Manolache wrote: > The main purpose of the DELETE ( from my perspective ) is to prevent > PS flooding the AS, i.e. to provide a form of flow control. Secondary > reason is to provide more info for load balancing the receipts across > AS connections. Hmm, I just realized that h2 is pretty bad at this specific use case. If all you send is headers (which is true in this case), then flow control doesn't kick in. Also, pushes aren't subject to the concurrent stream limit because they don't require client interaction. 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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:34:31 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Brian Raymor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Costin Manolache , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:34:33 -0000 On 28 April 2016 at 10:29, Brian Raymor wrote: > PS can already rate control an AS: This was about the reverse, having rate control on the delivery of receipts to the AS. It's possible that a PS could overwhelm an AS with these. From nobody Wed Apr 27 17:51:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253AB12B05A for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rvp3zGo27aCm for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1439512D504 for ; 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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.43.82 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:18:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:18:06 +1000 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Brian Raymor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Costin Manolache , "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 01:18:09 -0000 On 28 April 2016 at 10:51, Brian Raymor wrote: > > > Martin Thomson wrote: > >> On 28 April 2016 at 10:29, Brian Raymor wrote: >>> PS can already rate control an AS: > >> This was about the reverse, having rate control on the delivery of >> receipts to the AS. It's possible that a PS could overwhelm an AS >> with these. > > I understand - my point is that the AS is creating its own problem. It's requesting > too many push messages with receipts and then failing to scale when receiving the > receipts from the PS. In this case, the AS needs to be encouraged by the PS to slow > down its rate of requests that are generating those receipts. It's not that easy. An AS could send messages out over several time and still be flooded with receipts in a sudden spike. From nobody Wed Apr 27 19:20:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA09B12B00A for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vyEpovLluace for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB2012D521 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id d62so64612730iof.2 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NRQ7FQBE+4I5bKnrMO/nis4DapdL5D948WAyW5WeCR8=; b=a7XT+45WfrsMAsY5TBEujdwI2bXmM1pDXAP1yp8MqB5JSuML9j4PO7lfq5ztGD8MEd 1XbxiGZKXc0565OYU062e7HlFrqSWNkKlTldexK6qGzt4n33wS7UKiehgHw97p4a8aXH ctYlAgSMAzDFwqHcr6tdstVNnhvaNRy2pZmTDfhWxsTtPZvfrwJ0zHBTfvQux6mT6i9k TGILk+4KZWCBZT+b2PmPU/tD6FTuhfhWotcocuazuwOZybxyUn3I+HhZ6GcHtshtR9/D F2gwT1aNo7r3KVU7s/mqQImC3wfRzVAeWYoYf4Fi2b0oun2CGfrTdyqMNGH+hqMfq4hE AS5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NRQ7FQBE+4I5bKnrMO/nis4DapdL5D948WAyW5WeCR8=; b=Sdfh4kGXEFNFnSkI3J6blhlYPRoYZUfAS0c4naAyuoUTBeKTPef3TRsZh0c8I4mpqV wrqu+UebZsKetBvbDdALeb9sX+LZ/myUCOwTHJe1jCsj2G1Wtu/uklCFxJJt2Bmf4f4T tbBuiQIyRYp01yxrnuo81UmNoRs6s9D3dgSUZXBEF5dMJErIkkp+HQl5ubYn+mOzYdBl QCSZ40yzKLKinQAD6/l90oNcFbjUcjXSxzvLMJ7F1i4g1x2NjTYulYxdm2ilRfDVgXB/ fwvk3GAtGJooBPwN3dM0DLroqI0+qB57Iuv/rA77ODu0omt1Dxv/O6t8Zadcw9YbCbW0 /h7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWn6BUTumd1aJYlHGqU5ZABiWVmP9DcwRmEHxk/zPGUEgaO5VApArfZjYTQhsRQ18H5CNZGTpDGkluaTg== X-Received: by 10.107.173.69 with SMTP id w66mr15570230ioe.182.1461810030631; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:20:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Costin Manolache Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson , Brian Raymor Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114464f49ae4940531822b0a Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:20:33 -0000 --001a114464f49ae4940531822b0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yes, traffic is not uniform. For example if one network has an outage - a lot of saved messages will be delivered when the network recovers, resulting in a spike of receipts, which may bring down some AS servers - with cascading effect. And very little they can do about it. Also it's hard for PS to load balance without some feedback. Delete would provide the feedback and support flow control - at least if it is sent on the same h2 connection. If it's send on a different connection - who knows where it'll be load balanced, and it gets quite tricky to correlate. One option would be to have multiple GET requests on the receipt resource - each would get a MAX_CONNECTION promises (receipts), after that the AS would need to make another GET. They can also have 2-3 concurrent GET requests if they want, and manage the flow by (outstanding GET * max_receipts_per_get). May still lose some receipts (no confirmation), but ok if spec is clear that receipts are best effort. Costin On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 6:18 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On 28 April 2016 at 10:51, Brian Raymor > wrote: > > > > > > Martin Thomson wrote: > > > >> On 28 April 2016 at 10:29, Brian Raymor > wrote: > >>> PS can already rate control an AS: > > > >> This was about the reverse, having rate control on the delivery of > >> receipts to the AS. It's possible that a PS could overwhelm an AS > >> with these. > > > > I understand - my point is that the AS is creating its own problem. It's > requesting > > too many push messages with receipts and then failing to scale when > receiving the > > receipts from the PS. In this case, the AS needs to be encouraged by the > PS to slow > > down its rate of requests that are generating those receipts. > > It's not that easy. An AS could send messages out over several time > and still be flooded with receipts in a sudden spike. > --001a114464f49ae4940531822b0a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, traffic is not uniform. For example if one network ha= s an outage - a lot of saved messages will
be delivered when the networ= k recovers, resulting in a spike of receipts, which may bring down
some AS servers - with cascading effect. And very little they can do abou= t it.=C2=A0

Also it's hard for PS to load bala= nce without some feedback. Delete would provide the feedback
and = support flow control - at least if it is sent on the same h2 connection. If= it's send on a different
connection - who knows where it'= ;ll be load balanced, and it gets quite tricky to correlate.

One option would be to have multiple GET reque= sts on the receipt resource - each would get=C2=A0
a MAX_CONNECTI= ON promises (receipts), after that the AS would need to make=C2=A0
another GET.=C2=A0 They can also have 2-3 concurrent GET requests if they= want, and manage
the flow by (outstanding GET * max_receipts_per= _get).

May still lose some receipts (no confirmati= on), but ok if spec is clear that receipts are best=C2=A0
effort.

Costin

On Wed, Apr 27, 201= 6 at 6:18 PM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 28 April 2016 at 10:51, Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@micro= soft.com> wrote:
>
>
> Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28 April 2016 at 10:29, Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:
>>> PS can already rate control an AS:
>
>> This was about the reverse, having rate control on the delivery of=
>> receipts to the AS.=C2=A0 It's possible that a PS could overwh= elm an AS
>> with these.
>
> I understand - my point is that the AS is creating its own problem. It= 's requesting
> too many push messages with receipts and then failing to scale when re= ceiving the
> receipts from the PS. In this case, the AS needs to be encouraged by t= he PS to slow
> down its rate of requests that are generating those receipts.

It's not that easy.=C2=A0 An AS could send messages out over several ti= me
and still be flooded with receipts in a sudden spike.
--001a114464f49ae4940531822b0a-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 21:40:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9594F12D861 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEuhBUhwrz3y for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0705.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::705]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53C9212D85D for ; 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boundary="_004_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Apr 2016 04:49:41.5815 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR03MB2406 Archived-At: Subject: [Webpush] WebPush with simplified receipts X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 04:49:47 -0000 --_004_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_" --_000_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While we're discussing - https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/iss= ues/87 - I've merged the pending pull request for simplified receipts and c= losed the related issues. Attached is a PDF for easier review. --_000_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

While we’re discussing - https://github.com/webpush-wg/webpush-protocol/issues/87 - I’ve m= erged the pending pull request for simplified receipts and closed the relat= ed issues. Attached is a PDF for easier review.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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c3RhcnR4cmVmCjQyOTY3CiUlRU9GCg== --_004_CO2PR03MB240729B2FB7DB611BB16F0BD83650CO2PR03MB2407namp_-- From nobody Fri Apr 29 04:21:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webpush@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5939012D613 for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 04:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YsM_CzV4hCor for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 04:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inari-msr.crf.canon.fr (inari-msr.crf.canon.fr [194.2.158.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 320FD12D640 for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mir-msr.corp.crf.canon.fr (mir-msr.corp.crf.canon.fr [172.19.77.98]) by inari-msr.crf.canon.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TBLipR028934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:21:45 +0200 Received: from Antiope.crf.canon.fr (antiope.fesl2.crf.canon.fr [172.19.70.56]) by mir-msr.corp.crf.canon.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TBLirx014989; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:21:44 +0200 Received: from Antiope.crf.canon.fr (172.19.70.56) by Antiope.crf.canon.fr (172.19.70.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.29; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:21:44 +0200 Received: from Antiope.crf.canon.fr ([fe80::5c25:f890:ae73:d15a]) by Antiope.crf.canon.fr ([fe80::5c25:f890:ae73:d15a%12]) with mapi id 15.00.0995.032; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:21:44 +0200 From: RUELLAN Herve To: Brian Raymor , Costin Manolache , Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up Thread-Index: AQHRn07lAIBlXI24M0OiyBmRbdlP85+c15aAgAA+KoCAAAKaAIAA2iMAgAFMlWSAAAFvAf//SGGAgAAnDgCAAiHk0A== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:21:44 +0000 Message-ID: <63d5793ded0c4949aa7bb913ee4d04ab@Antiope.crf.canon.fr> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.20.5.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "webpush@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Webpush] Receipt subscription follow-up X-BeenThere: webpush@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of potential IETF work on a web push protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:21:50 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBXZWJwdXNoIFttYWlsdG86d2Vi cHVzaC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgQnJpYW4NCj4gUmF5bW9yDQo+IFNl 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