
From hallam@gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 07:10:17 2011
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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 14:11:57 +0000
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Adam Barth <ietf@adambarth.com>
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Subject: Re: [websec] Decouple HSTS's two orthogonal effects?
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People who are interested in this issue may be interested in the following
requirements doc that I generated as input to the DANE WG but is also
relevant here:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hallambaker-dane-requirements-00.txt

(There will be a -01 to change the copyright to allow mods and fix some
definitions later today when my RAID has rebuilt)

TLS security policy actually has at least three requirements:

R1) Opportunistic TLS - tell a client that TLS is always available and can
be used as an alternative to plaintext.

R2) Strict TLS - tell a client that TLS must be used for the whole
transaction including for content incorporated by linking.

R3) Trust root / end entity cert restrictions.


The certificate is passed to the client in the TLS handshake. Thus what
people take as a 'requirement to put keys in the DNS' is actually the same
as a requirement to use a restricted set of keys.

These requirements actually serve two very distinct use cases:


U1) Better than nothing, opportunistic TLS. The content was going to be sent
in plaintext but we are going to upgrade on the fly to use TLS. (R1)

U2) The highest possible level of security is required. The Web site and all
linked content must be secured with TLS. (R2+R3)


Addressing (R2) is very hard because it forces us to look at the internals
of HTTP and TLS and Javascript and other piles of yuk. Defining a header or
a DNS record to say 'use strict security' is easy. But defining what strict
security is in a way that people can deploy is actually very hard.

So in practice R2 is going to end up having to address a whole bunch of
constraints that will probably end up with a set of additional requirements
so that a site like Paypal can say things like 'paypal.com has a cert from
vendor X, linked sites must have EV certs'. And there will need to be quite
a lot of detail there.

Ideally I think we might well want to see a mechanism where we go into a
default deny mode so that a site declares a strict security policy and then
grants exceptions for off site linking and the like.


-- 
Website: http://hallambaker.com/

--bcaec50166a537938204a054b10e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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People who are interested in this issue may be interested in the following =
requirements doc that I generated as input to the DANE WG but is also relev=
ant here:<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hallam=
baker-dane-requirements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hallambaker-da=
ne-requirements-00.txt</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>(There will be a -01 to change the copyright to allow m=
ods and fix some definitions later today when my RAID has rebuilt)</div><di=
v><br></div><div>TLS security policy actually has at least three requiremen=
ts:</div>
<div><br></div><div>R1) Opportunistic TLS - tell a client that TLS is alway=
s available and can be used as an alternative to plaintext.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>R2) Strict TLS - tell a client that TLS must be used for the whol=
e transaction including for content incorporated by linking.</div>
<div><br>R3) Trust root / end entity cert restrictions.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>The certificate is passed to the client in the TLS han=
dshake. Thus what people take as a &#39;requirement to put keys in the DNS&=
#39; is actually the same as a requirement to use a restricted set of keys.=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>These requirements actually serve two very distinct use=
 cases:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>U1) Better than nothing, op=
portunistic TLS. The content was going to be sent in plaintext but we are g=
oing to upgrade on the fly to use TLS. (R1)</div>
<div><br></div><div>U2) The highest possible level of security is required.=
 The Web site and all linked content must be secured with TLS. (R2+R3)</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Addressing (R2) is very hard because it=
 forces us to look at the internals of HTTP and TLS and Javascript and othe=
r piles of yuk. Defining a header or a DNS record to say &#39;use strict se=
curity&#39; is easy. But defining what strict security is in a way that peo=
ple can deploy is actually very hard.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So in practice R2 is going to end up having to address =
a whole bunch of constraints that will probably end up with a set of additi=
onal requirements so that a site like Paypal can say things like &#39;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://paypal.com">paypal.com</a> has a cert from vendor X, linked si=
tes must have EV certs&#39;. And there will need to be quite a lot of detai=
l there.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Ideally I think we might well want to see a mechanism w=
here we go into a default deny mode so that a site declares a strict securi=
ty policy and then grants exceptions for off site linking and the like.</di=
v>
<div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Website: <a href=3D"http://hallambaker.co=
m/">http://hallambaker.com/</a><br><br>
</div>

--bcaec50166a537938204a054b10e--

From tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org  Fri Apr 22 05:32:49 2011
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Hello dear Websec fellows,

FYI: Please find our meeting minutes posted here:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/minutes/websec.txt
(Tried a new format with a list of the action items at the top of the
minutes.)

Please ping me regarding any corrections.

And many thanks to Tony and Yoav for taking the action items and jabber
scribing!

Tobias
chair of websec


Ps.: btw. all presentation slides and agenda are there of course as well:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/80/materials.html#wg-websec


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Fri Apr 22 11:39:51 2011
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:39:48 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [websec] new co-chair
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

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Folks, I have named Alexey Melnikov as co-chair of the WEBSEC WG, along
with existing chair Tobias Gondrom. As you probably know already, Alexey
has a great deal of experience in the Applications Area, deep
familiarity with MIME (cf. draft-ietf-websec-mime-sniff), strong
knowledge of security issues including TLS (cf. HSTS), and good
relationships with our friends at the W3C (who are working to form a
"webappsec" working group of their own).

Many thanks to Alexey for volunteering so soon after his IESG term ended.=
 :)

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Apr 26 10:13:47 2011
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:13:41 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [websec] Fwd: [apps-discuss] Position Paper for W3C Identity in the Browser Workshop
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Just FYI, please reply on the apps-discuss list if you have feedback.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [apps-discuss] Position Paper for W3C Identity in the Browser
Workshop
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:12:02 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
To: apps-discuss@ietf.org <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
CC: Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>

Folks, over on the SAAG list, Sean Turner and Stephen Farrell have
posted a draft position paper for the upcoming W3C Workshop on Identity
in the Browser:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg03201.html
http://www.w3.org/2011/identity-ws/

Because neither Sean nor Stephen will be able to attend the workshop, I
offered to help them by co-authoring the position paper and presenting
about the topic if the proposal is accepted.

Since this proposal straddles the line between apps and security, I
figured it would be good to get feedback from the AppsArea community
before we submit the proposal (the deadline is tomorrow, sorry about the
late notice).

Your feedback is welcome.

Thanks!

Peter

###

Submitters

Sean Turner
Stephen Farrell
Peter Saint-Andre

Abstract

This position paper advocates an Application Programming Interface (API)
that will enable developers access to cryptographic algorithms already
present in today's web browsers.

Motivations

More and more applications are moving to the "web" (e.g.,
http://app.example.com:80 and https://app.example.com:443).  Developers
are working within the confines of various browsers to secure these
applications, and most use Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)/Transport Security
Layer (TLS) to do so.  This reliance is not sub-optimal for applications
whose architectures are not strictly client-server (e.g., IM and VoIP).
 As a workaround, developers are currently investigating the creation of
new Javascript-based cryptography libraries, along with new formats for
signed and encrypted objects based on JavaScript Object Notation (JSON).
 Use of JSON makes some sense in an application layer security protocol.
 However, it makes less sense for developers to roll (and deliver) their
own cryptographic algorithms -- it's not only wasteful, it's also
dangerous when the browser's security "goodies" (i.e., the cryptographic
algorithms) are just an API away.

Downloading cryptographic algorithms is wasteful in terms of bandwidth
used.  Application and browser developers are both very interested in
ensuring their applications are speedy in the eyes of users;  nobody
wants to lose a speed war on CNET.  If web developers end up rolling
their own cryptographic algorithms to support a JSON application layer
security protocol, then the code may end up being downloaded during
application initialization.  Such cryptographic code could include
message digest/hash algorithms, digital signature algorithms, content
encryption algorithms, key wrap algorithms, and keyed-Hash Message
Authentication Code (HMAC) algorithms.  This kind of code is typically
not small because of the significant math involved in producing strong
security.

However, the greatest danger here is not a waste of bandwidth, but
possible security breaches.  Obviously, downloading cryptographic
algorithms is an easy attack vector if not done over SSL/TLS.  But the
real challenge is that security is hard.  As Steve Bellovin pointed out
in RFC 5406, the design of security protocols is a subtle and difficult
art.  In fact, coding security protocols is even more subtle and
difficult than designing security protocols.  There is no doubt that
some developers will get it right the first time, but there is also no
doubt that some will get it wrong.  Given that cryptographic algorithms
alread coded into browsers (and that some of them have already been
evaluated by the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology
(NIST) for compliance with Federal Information Processing Publication
(FIPS PUB) 140), it seems unnecessarily risky to not make use of the
cryptographic algorithms already present in the browser.  A consistent
API for access to those algorithms would provide a strong foundation for
securing the web.

Goals

We propose that a consistent web security API would support the
following algorithms and functions:

o Hash/message digest algorithms (e.g., SHA-256)
o Digital signatures algorithms (e.g., RSA PKCS#1 v1.5, ECDSA)
o Confidentiality algorithms (e.g., AES)
o Key transport/agreement algorithms (e.g., RSA PKCS#1 v1.5, ECDH)
o HMAC algorithms (e.g., HMAC-SHA1, HMAC-SHA256)
o Methods for extracting keys from TLS sessions (e.g., using RFC 5176)
o Methods for PKI path validation (e.g., input/output of base64
certificate/CRL blobs)
o Methods for generating and processing Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS=
)

###

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From arno@renevier.net  Fri Apr 29 08:57:09 2011
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Subject: [websec] possible typo in draft-abarth-mime-sniff (vidow/video) ?
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Hi,
in latest (6th) version of Media Type Sniffing draft[1], there is a reference
to "vidow/webm" media type (on #page-14). Is is a typo (vidow instead of
video) ?

While I'm here, I may have found another typo on #page-11:

- If index-stream-th octet of the stream different than

Would the phrase be better with word "is" between stream and different ? (I'm 
not a native english speaker, so I may be wrong).

regards
arno


[1]: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-06

From ietf@adambarth.com  Sat Apr 30 11:05:32 2011
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From: Adam Barth <ietf@adambarth.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:04:55 -0700
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Subject: Re: [websec] possible typo in draft-abarth-mime-sniff (vidow/video) ?
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Thanks.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 8:56 AM, arno <arno@renevier.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> in latest (6th) version of Media Type Sniffing draft[1], there is a reference
> to "vidow/webm" media type (on #page-14). Is is a typo (vidow instead of
> video) ?

This is already fixed in my local copy of the spec.

> While I'm here, I may have found another typo on #page-11:
>
> - If index-stream-th octet of the stream different than
>
> Would the phrase be better with word "is" between stream and different ? (I'm
> not a native english speaker, so I may be wrong).

Fixed.

Thanks,
Adam
