From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jul 2 03:09:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A319A3A67EE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 03:09:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YG77Ob25lyNJ for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 03:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (mx06.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449563A67C3 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 03:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 (u-173-c044.cs.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.173.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o62A9DuR027021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:09:14 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Cullen Jennings'" References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"CB68DF4! ! ! ! CFBEF49428 8C74B9 043D 30 B"@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <909E12B9-984F-4051-A93E-2291EFE0A40E@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:09:13 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsRZil0HQ7IYcfiQc6J3HE4d/X1hQIVooqA Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus: NOT checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; host: mx06) Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:09:08 -0000 Hello, taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > 1) low delay mode The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. = This is require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and = other highly interactive conversational tasks. > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec=20 (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system = components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration. However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor = faster of 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full = load is a rare case. Any suggestion to improve it? With best regards, Christian=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ -----Original Message----- From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > So, we have consensus on=20 > 1) low delay mode > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If = you think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and = that it needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you = think it is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of = consensus call. Thanks, Cullen =3D From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Fri Jul 2 04:13:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78593A688A for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 04:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlEAlJW1sOWU for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 04:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC583A6858 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 04:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28so463543gxk.31 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 04:13:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=GJGuBtwxs/y7xUGcC5F/FNoZWJTJg/i3ZdYwSwd4IjE=; b=U8X2Fxvqi+y9QfC7k2it7GKxd6GUa6aSw+4mTOUyh65LBA8O3H4ZLAaQsMUlCGL9Yz n5rh8b5zxlgQAcPdsAJrKhcZj/dGZ8zMJ6rPSjII/+bCA4aYqxn/t8ntfNy2IX7Tnydy P4N0P7bdtKwXLLS4HvAP6ExMGK5EUuEJoO/h0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=vriZgDzL7yTCdOTMiYk/dbTnM/y7kPGY0bTJRHO2FkmiiqLuYLKE0Xg9VohZ/GBgG8 WvUXDK+oFUIN55nLjDZkxTXkW7J7ZaliXI4YXrv4AvdNYK/GBa0c0uu3p1F9UFJAZjT7 DvASjjSmYCZX3Al8AGulqPjIa7uoYBrJOUdHo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.80.5 with SMTP id d5mr1115435agb.17.1278069217767; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 04:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.82.7 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 04:13:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <909E12B9-984F-4051-A93E-2291EFE0A40E@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 07:13:37 -0400 Message-ID: From: stephen botzko To: Christian Hoene Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016361e8782b93146048a65ad6d Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:13:30 -0000 --0016361e8782b93146048a65ad6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list tha= t support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable suggestion= s that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were expressly discussed and generally agreed. There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For instance= , a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling o= n low-delay frame size. Regards Stephen Botzko 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > Hello, > > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > > > 1) low delay mode > > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay > of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is > require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other high= ly > interactive conversational tasks. > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiri= ng > less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s > > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that t= he > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as larg= e > as the frame duration. > > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faste= r > than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of > 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare > case. > > Any suggestion to improve it? > > With best regards, > > Christian > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > > > So, we have consensus on > > 1) low delay mode > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s > > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or > call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If yo= u > think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that= it > needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is > folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call= . > > Thanks, Cullen > =3D > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > --0016361e8782b93146048a65ad6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list tha= t support your consensus claim.=A0 While perhaps they are reasonable sugges= tions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specific= s were expressly discussed and generally agreed.=A0

There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list.=A0 For in= stance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 c= eiling on low-delay frame size.

Regards
Stephen Botzko


2010/7/2 Christian Hoene &= lt;hoene@uni-tu= ebingen.de>
Hello,

taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary.

> 1) low delay mode

The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay o= f 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is re= quire to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly i= nteractive conversational tasks.

> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)

The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiring= less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec
(< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)).

> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platfor= ms

Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system compo= nents contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that the proc= essing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as large as t= he frame duration.

However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will be= available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faster= than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of = 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare c= ase.

Any suggestion to improve it?

With best regards,

=A0Christian



---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
http://www.n= et.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast?


On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:

> So, we have consensus on
> 1) low delay mode
> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)
> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platfor= ms

>From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or= call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If= you think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and t= hat it needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think i= t is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus c= all.

Thanks, Cullen <with my chair hat on>
=A0=3D

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

--0016361e8782b93146048a65ad6d-- From herve.taddei@huawei.com Fri Jul 2 05:18:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2843A67E2 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5DsFyZbxOIc for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrga02-in.huawei.com (lhrga02-in.huawei.com [195.33.106.143]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B843A635F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrga02-in [172.18.7.45]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L4X00MTIJIC66@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:18:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from h00900001 ([10.200.70.162]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L4X00AZFJI8LD@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:18:12 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:18:08 +0200 From: Herve Taddei In-reply-to: To: 'stephen botzko' , 'Christian Hoene' Message-id: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_0n5gkk6h1jYmSa5pmqNrug)" Thread-index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8Ihw iPlanet-SMTP-Warning: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and truncated. References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"909E12B9-984F-405 FE0A40E"@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:18:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0n5gkk6h1jYmSa5pmqNrug) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really = represent a consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was = asking in my email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is = the consensus?=20 =20 The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec = complexity as reference, for which reason?=20 =20 Kind regards =20 Herve Taddei =20 _____ =20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of stephen botzko Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... =20 Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list = that support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable = suggestions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics = were expressly discussed and generally agreed. =20 There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For = instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 = ceiling on low-delay frame size. Regards Stephen Botzko 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene Hello, taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > 1) low delay mode The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other = highly interactive conversational tasks. > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration. However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster = of 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a = rare case. Any suggestion to improve it? With best regards, Christian --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ -----Original Message----- From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > So, we have consensus on > 1) low delay mode > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you = think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it = needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call. Thanks, Cullen =3D _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec =20 --Boundary_(ID_0n5gkk6h1jYmSa5pmqNrug) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represent a consensus as it never came on = the table. This is exactly what I was asking in my email by end of May when = you wrote there was consensus, what is the consensus? =

 

The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why = this value? The AMR-WB codec complexity as reference, for which reason? =

 

Kind = regards

 

Herve Taddei

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephen botzko
Sent: Friday, July 02, = 2010 1:14 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] = Suggested summary...

 

Maybe I = somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list that support your = consensus claim.  While perhaps they are reasonable suggestions that we can = discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were expressly = discussed and generally agreed. 

There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list.  For instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 = 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame size.

Regards
Stephen Botzko


2010/7/2 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>=

Hello,

taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary.

> 1) low delay mode

The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is = require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly = interactive conversational tasks.

> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)

The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec
(< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)).

> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms

Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration.

However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 = (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case.

Any suggestion to improve it?

With best regards,

 Christian



---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 = 2970532
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast?


On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:

> So, we have consensus on
> 1) low delay mode
> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)
> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms

>From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you = think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it = needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks = agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call.

Thanks, Cullen <with my chair hat on>
 =3D

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

 

--Boundary_(ID_0n5gkk6h1jYmSa5pmqNrug)-- From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jul 2 05:48:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A13A67E3 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.466, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rCjsikWNYmam for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (mx06.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4003A67DA for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 (u-173-c044.cs.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.173.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o62Clq8s017336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:47:52 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Herve Taddei'" , "'stephen botzko'" References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"909E12B! 9-984F-405 FE0A40E"@cis co.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:47:52 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <003a01cb19e4$ccdb8ed0$6692ac70$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01CB19F5.90645ED0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAIiUNA= Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus: NOT checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; host: mx06) Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:48:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01CB19F5.90645ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, I am not saying that there is a consensus on the claims I made. I am just saying that this might be first starting point to discuss it = further. =20 To explain the figures: a) 5+1/3 ms was selected because at a sampling rate of 48000 Hz, it = is has a size of 256 samples. 256 samples is good for sound cards and = good for DFFT. In addition, it covers the codec contribution of Broadcom = and Xiph.org. b) The complexity of AMR-WB is mentioned because both the Broadcom = and the Skype codecs are faster. =20 If you want other figures, please bring them on the table. =20 Christian =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 From: Herve Taddei [mailto:herve.taddei@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:18 PM To: 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... =20 I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really = represent a consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly = what I was asking in my email by end of May when you wrote there was = consensus, what is the consensus?=20 =20 The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec = complexity as reference, for which reason?=20 =20 Kind regards =20 Herve Taddei =20 _____ =20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of stephen botzko Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... =20 Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list = that support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable = suggestions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the = specifics were expressly discussed and generally agreed. =20 There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For = instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 = 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame size. Regards Stephen Botzko 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene Hello, taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > 1) low delay mode The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. = This is require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and = other highly interactive conversational tasks. > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system = components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration. However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor = faster of 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full = load is a rare case. Any suggestion to improve it? With best regards, Christian --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ -----Original Message----- From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > So, we have consensus on > 1) low delay mode > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If = you think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and = that it needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you = think it is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of = consensus call. Thanks, Cullen =3D _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01CB19F5.90645ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, I am not saying that there is a consensus on the = claims I made.

I am just saying that this might be first starting point = to discuss it further.

 

To explain the figures:

a)      5+1/3 ms was selected = because at a sampling rate of 48000 Hz, it is has a size of 256 samples. 256 = samples is good for sound cards and good for DFFT. In addition, it covers the codec contribution of Broadcom and Xiph.org.

b)      The complexity of = AMR-WB is mentioned because both the Broadcom and the Skype codecs are = faster.

 

If you want other figures, please bring them on the = table.

 

Christian

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------= -----

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of = T=C3=BCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 = 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de= /

 

From:= Herve = Taddei [mailto:herve.taddei@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:18 PM
To: 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene'
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary...

 

I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not = really represent a consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly = what I was asking in my email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, = what is the consensus?

 

The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB = codec complexity as reference, for which reason?

 

Kind regards

 

H= erve Taddei

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephen botzko
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary...

 

Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list that = support your consensus claim.  While perhaps they are reasonable = suggestions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were expressly discussed and generally agreed. 

There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list.  For instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 = 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame size.

Regards
Stephen Botzko

2010/7/2 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

Hello,

taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary.

> 1) low delay mode

The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is = require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly = interactive conversational tasks.

> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)

The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec
(< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)).

> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms

Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration.

However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 = (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case.

Any suggestion to improve it?

With best regards,

 Christian



---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast?


On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:

> So, we have consensus on
> 1) low delay mode
> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)
> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms

>From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you = think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it = needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks = agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call.

Thanks, Cullen <with my chair hat on>
 =3D

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

 

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01CB19F5.90645ED0-- From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 05:57:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBD53A6822 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qzu+6rCJpUkJ for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og122.obsmtp.com (exprod7og122.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336B93A67DA for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob122.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC3iRVw+cdMk24Y+aubCWBfzIzbOVF8j@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 05:57:52 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:54:24 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: Herve Taddei , 'stephen botzko' , 'Christian Hoene' Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 05:54:18 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6Y= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... 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Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39573A6820 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ItmcvwFnqfWC for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrga02-in.huawei.com (lhrga02-in.huawei.com [195.33.106.143]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22FA3A6818 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrga02-in [172.18.7.45]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L4X0085PM84U2@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:16:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from h00900001 ([10.200.70.162]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L4X00J90M80OJ@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:16:51 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:16:47 +0200 From: Herve Taddei In-reply-to: To: 'Michael Knappe' , 'stephen botzko' , 'Christian Hoene' Message-id: <33D8F96E0D56484C8E41BE982E4D1990@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEA== References: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:16:45 -0000 Hi Mike, Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at = which bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good example = of a low complexity codec for WB services.=20 Best regards Herve=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry = precedence for > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A = comes to > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized = fixed point > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less algorithm specific. > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: >=20 > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really = represent a > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was = asking in my > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the consensus? >=20 > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec = complexity as > reference, for which reason? >=20 > Kind regards >=20 >=20 > Herve Taddei >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > stephen botzko > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the = list that > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable suggestions > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were > expressly discussed and generally agreed. >=20 > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For instance, a general > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame > size. >=20 > Regards > Stephen Botzko >=20 >=20 > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > Hello, >=20 > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. >=20 > > 1) low delay mode >=20 > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is = require to support > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > conversational tasks. >=20 > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >=20 > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiring less > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >=20 > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >=20 > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states = that the > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the > frame duration. >=20 > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources = will be > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 (smart phones) > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. >=20 > Any suggestion to improve it? >=20 > With best regards, >=20 > Christian >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? >=20 >=20 > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: >=20 > > So, we have consensus on > > 1) low delay mode > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >=20 > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize = or call > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you think a key > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it needs = to captured > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree = with and then the > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. >=20 > Thanks, Cullen > =3D >=20 > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >=20 From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Fri Jul 2 06:25:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C98D3A681A for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2MuTF7Jba8hq for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DF53A680F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3so1747524gyh.31 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:25:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=E3CXa2eWGoRSN/1E49cBQ+dXyGvbOEE9VEoG/9ctRs8=; b=hJ1zOwNwB99MqzNTptZdE1F0j8ltgmfBXXrXXXSkC6Q7sFzkxwz8N+q2ufAgf9TCFQ 2jAZet2X1E4pfaW7RDb6gMo4dTq2qfvdXC7+38SJA8lSZdtGZWbCen84ox2dtQ34FfUD ct0Rko+VYIZZAx1aaGNVmPEj/5zTENXT+08Rk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=fot/IigQzkO6DXsYPyEdSzMblsceZKIrPHyJinISVEAdEgd1dUHwhJnwB6gFLe8uYd /3PMo75UAcajFUGoS8tiwZcqCyZTBXkTYa9zdhniOxHMlmgw8Nh769Z2P0pdJIWYmL+l WDoFxO0a82YOeLCLCeUuBSuGcxgaoU4znQLh8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.34.7 with SMTP id h7mr1505057agh.112.1278077140641; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.82.7 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:25:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <003a01cb19e4$ccdb8ed0$6692ac70$@de> References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> <003a01cb19e4$ccdb8ed0$6692ac70$@de> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:25:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: stephen botzko To: Christian Hoene Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0014853c975ef6af8c048a678551 Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:25:34 -0000 --0014853c975ef6af8c048a678551 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am ok with identifying starting points for discussion. From the thread context it (the reference to Cullen, etc) it sounded like you were attempting to summarize consensus. Sorry if I misunderstood. I understand the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is perfectly straightforward to adapt transforms to other sizes. G.719 for instance uses a 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size. There are many other examples that could be named. I don't think the sound card argument is all that relevant, since that is a normal place to put a buffer anyway, and there is no reason why that buffer needs to be related to the frame size. Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work backward= s from technology contributions to create the requirements. The normal way i= n the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem statements. IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good results, and it is fair to all (past and future) contributors. BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed internet music ensemble performances. While I am ok if that happens to fall out of the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications beyond delay. I would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance for music ensembles if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP folks would concur. I= s there a more compelling (maybe less fun) use case you can reference in the low-delay requirement? Stephen Botzko 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > So, I am not saying that there is a consensus on the claims I made. > > I am just saying that this might be first starting point to discuss it > further. > > > > To explain the figures: > > a) 5+1/3 ms was selected because at a sampling rate of 48000 Hz, it > is has a size of 256 samples. 256 samples is good for sound cards and goo= d > for DFFT. In addition, it covers the codec contribution of Broadcom and > Xiph.org. > > b) The complexity of AMR-WB is mentioned because both the Broadcom > and the Skype codecs are faster. > > > > If you want other figures, please bring them on the table. > > > > Christian > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > > *From:* Herve Taddei [mailto:herve.taddei@huawei.com] > *Sent:* Friday, July 02, 2010 2:18 PM > *To:* 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > *Cc:* codec@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represen= t > a consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was ask= ing > in my email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the > consensus? > > > > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexit= y > as reference, for which reason? > > > > Kind regards > > > > Herve Taddei > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *stephen botzko > *Sent:* Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > *To:* Christian Hoene > *Cc:* codec@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list > that support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable > suggestions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the > specifics were expressly discussed and generally agreed. > > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For > instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1= /3 > ceiling on low-delay frame size. > > Regards > Stephen Botzko > > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > > Hello, > > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > > > 1) low delay mode > > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay > of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is > require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other high= ly > interactive conversational tasks. > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiri= ng > less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s > > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that t= he > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as larg= e > as the frame duration. > > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faste= r > than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of > 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare > case. > > Any suggestion to improve it? > > With best regards, > > Christian > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > > > So, we have consensus on > > 1) low delay mode > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s > > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or > call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If yo= u > think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that= it > needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is > folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call= . > > Thanks, Cullen > =3D > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > --0014853c975ef6af8c048a678551 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am ok with identifying starting points for discussion.=A0 From the thread= context it (the reference to Cullen, etc) it sounded like you were attempt= ing to summarize consensus.=A0 Sorry if I misunderstood.

I understan= d the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is perfectly straig= htforward to adapt transforms to other sizes.=A0 G.719 for instance uses a = 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size.=A0 There are many other exam= ples that could be named.=A0 I don't think the sound card argument is a= ll that relevant, since that is a normal place to put a buffer anyway, and = there is no reason why that buffer needs to be related to the frame size.
Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work back= wards from technology contributions to create the requirements.=A0 The norm= al way in the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem statements= .=A0 IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good results, and it i= s fair to all (past and future) contributors.

BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed inte= rnet music ensemble performances.=A0 While I am ok if that happens to fall = out of the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications beyond delay= .=A0 I would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance for music en= sembles if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP folks would co= ncur.=A0 Is there a more compelling=A0 (maybe less fun) use case you can re= ference in the low-delay requirement?

Stephen Botzko



2010/7/2 Chris= tian Hoene <= hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

So, I am not saying that there is a consensus on the c= laims I made.

I am just saying that this might be first starting poi= nt to discuss it further.

=A0

To explain the figures:

a)=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 5+1/3 ms was selected because at a sampling rate of 48000 Hz, it is has a size of 256 samples. 256 sample= s is good for sound cards and good for DFFT. In addition, it covers the codec contribution of Broadcom and Xiph.org.

b)=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 The complexity of AMR-WB is mentioned because both the Broadcom and the Skype codecs are faster.

=A0

If you want other figures, please bring them on the ta= ble.

=A0

Christian

=A0

=A0

-----------------------------= ----------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Sys= tems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Ge= rmany, Phone +49 7071 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=A0

From:= Herve Taddei [mailto:herve.= taddei@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:18 PM
To: 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene'
Cc: codec@ietf.o= rg
Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary...

=A0

I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represent a consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I= was asking in my email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what i= s the consensus?

=A0

The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexity as reference, for which reason?

=A0

Kind regards

=A0

Herve Taddei

=A0

F= rom: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephen botzko
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary...

=A0

= Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list that suppor= t your consensus claim.=A0 While perhaps they are reasonable suggestions that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were expressly discussed and generally agreed.=A0

There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list.=A0 For instance, a general support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame size.

Regards
Stephen Botzko

2010/7/2 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebing= en.de>

Hello,

taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary.

> 1) low delay mode

The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay o= f 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is requ= ire to support ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interac= tive conversational tasks.

> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)

The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec
(< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)).

> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platfor= ms

Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as large = as the frame duration.

However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faster = than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 (s= mart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case.

Any suggestion to improve it?

With best regards,

=A0Christian



---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
http://www.n= et.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast?


On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:

> So, we have consensus on
> 1) low delay mode
> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means)
> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platfor= ms

>From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or= call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you t= hink a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it needs = to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of consensus call.

Thanks, Cullen <with my chair hat on>
=A0=3D

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

=A0


--0014853c975ef6af8c048a678551-- From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 08:27:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F553A68B2 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kuZyfmj0uA-a for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og126.obsmtp.com (exprod7og126.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.206]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9603A67B7 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob126.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC4FdggNLtwORFwovHqxuk9zOBpjIwgM@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 08:28:03 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:22:19 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "herve.taddei@huawei.com" , "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" , "hoene@uni-tuebingen.de" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:22:18 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEAAEinYG Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C3@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:27:52 -0000 Herve, I wasn't specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christian's email).= I was simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informal b= enchmarks by the industry at large. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Herve Taddei To: Michael Knappe; 'stephen botzko' ; 'Christian= Hoene' Cc: codec@ietf.org Sent: Fri Jul 02 09:16:47 2010=0A= Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... Hi Mike, Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at which bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good example of a low complexity codec for WB services.=20 Best regards Herve=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry precedence for > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A come= s to > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized fixe= d point > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less algorithm specific. > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: >=20 > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represen= t a > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was askin= g in my > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the consensus? >=20 > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexit= y as > reference, for which reason? >=20 > Kind regards >=20 >=20 > Herve Taddei >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > stephen botzko > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list that > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable suggestions > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were > expressly discussed and generally agreed. >=20 > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For instance, a general > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame > size. >=20 > Regards > Stephen Botzko >=20 >=20 > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > Hello, >=20 > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. >=20 > > 1) low delay mode >=20 > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay of 8ms > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is requir= e to support > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > conversational tasks. >=20 > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >=20 > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiring less > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >=20 > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s >=20 > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that the > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as larg= e as the > frame duration. >=20 > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will be > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faste= r than one > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 (smart phones) > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. >=20 > Any suggestion to improve it? >=20 > With best regards, >=20 > Christian >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? >=20 >=20 > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: >=20 > > So, we have consensus on > > 1) low delay mode > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platform= s >=20 > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or call > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you think a key > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it needs to captured > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree with and then the > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. >=20 > Thanks, Cullen > =3D >=20 > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >=20 From herve.taddei@huawei.com Fri Jul 2 08:52:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7C03A68E4 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpjSxENbEmdG for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrga02-in.huawei.com (lhrga02-in.huawei.com [195.33.106.143]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4487D3A68B5 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrga02-in [172.18.7.45]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L4X008K8TGAU2@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:52:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from h00900001 ([10.200.70.162]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L4X00FIZTG6SS@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:52:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:52:54 +0200 From: Herve Taddei In-reply-to: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C3@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> To: 'Michael Knappe' , stephen.botzko@gmail.com, hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Message-id: <6A742200F6934AB39BCDA1BFDD595920@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEAAEinYGAAC8aeA= References: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C3@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:52:50 -0000 Codecs as G.722 (10 MIPS), G.722.1 (about 5 WMOPS), G.722.1C (about 11 WMOPS) and G.719 (about 21 WMOPS) are usually considered as low = complexity codecs for WB, SWB and FB bandwidths.=20 Other codecs as G.711 and its newly extensions have also very low = complexity versions with G.711.0 (less than 2 WMOPS), G.711.1 (about 9 WMOPS) and = very soon G.722/G.711.1 SWB. So 38 WMOPS is not really in the range of low complexity. Herve Taddei > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:22 PM > To: herve.taddei@huawei.com; stephen.botzko@gmail.com; hoene@uni- > tuebingen.de > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Herve, >=20 > I wasn't specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christian's email). I was > simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informal benchmarks > by the industry at large. >=20 > Mike >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Herve Taddei > To: Michael Knappe; 'stephen botzko' ; 'Christian > Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Sent: Fri Jul 02 09:16:47 2010 > Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at = which > bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good = example of > a low complexity codec for WB services. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Herve >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry = precedence > for > > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A comes > to > > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized fixed > point > > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less > algorithm specific. > > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? > > > > Mike > > > > > > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: > > > > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represent > a > > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was asking > in my > > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the > consensus? > > > > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexity > as > > reference, for which reason? > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Herve Taddei > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of > > stephen botzko > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the = list > that > > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable > suggestions > > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the = specifics > were > > expressly discussed and generally agreed. > > > > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For > instance, a general > > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on > low-delay frame > > size. > > > > Regards > > Stephen Botzko > > > > > > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > > Hello, > > > > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > > > > > 1) low delay mode > > > > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay > of 8ms > > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is require > to support > > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > > conversational tasks. > > > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while > requiring less > > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > > > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different = system > > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states = that > the > > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as large > as the > > frame duration. > > > > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources = will > be > > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faster > than one > > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 > (smart phones) > > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. > > > > Any suggestion to improve it? > > > > With best regards, > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > > > > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > > > > > So, we have consensus on > > > 1) low delay mode > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize = or > call > > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If = you > think a key > > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it = needs to > captured > > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree = with > and then the > > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. > > > > Thanks, Cullen > > =3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > codec mailing list > > codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > >=20 >=20 From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jul 2 09:01:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3583A6848 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:01:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3tIxMQ3kJoyJ for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (mx06.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0375E3A681C for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 (u-173-c044.cs.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.173.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o62G18tq007774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:01:08 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Herve Taddei'" , "'Michael Knappe'" , "'stephen botzko'" References: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> <33D8F96E0D56484C8E41BE982E4D1990@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <33D8F96E0D56484C8E41BE982E4D1990@china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:01:09 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <000301cb19ff$c9c11420$5d433c60$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEAAFhyPw Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus: NOT checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; host: mx06) Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:01:12 -0000 Hello Herve, If I understand you correctly, you are not suggesting G.722.1 as = reference. You just say that AMR-WB is not known as low-complexity. So, a better wording would say "The IWAC codec MUST be able to operate at a mode that requires less = computational resources than the AMR-WB codec at 12.65 kbit/s.=20 Thus, the complexity of the IWAC codec MUST be less than 38 WMOPS if = measured with the ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP library." =20 Fine? Christian -----Original Message----- From: Herve Taddei [mailto:herve.taddei@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:17 PM To: 'Michael Knappe'; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... Hi Mike, Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at = which bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good example = of a low complexity codec for WB services.=20 Best regards Herve=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry = precedence for > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A = comes to > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized = fixed point > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less algorithm specific. > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: >=20 > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really = represent a > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was = asking in my > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the consensus? >=20 > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec = complexity as > reference, for which reason? >=20 > Kind regards >=20 >=20 > Herve Taddei >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > stephen botzko > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the = list that > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable suggestions > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics were > expressly discussed and generally agreed. >=20 > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For instance, a general > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on low-delay frame > size. >=20 > Regards > Stephen Botzko >=20 >=20 > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > Hello, >=20 > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. >=20 > > 1) low delay mode >=20 > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is = require to support > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > conversational tasks. >=20 > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >=20 > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while requiring less > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >=20 > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >=20 > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states = that the > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the > frame duration. >=20 > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources = will be > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 (smart phones) > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. >=20 > Any suggestion to improve it? >=20 > With best regards, >=20 > Christian >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen > Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > To: Christian Hoene > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? >=20 >=20 > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: >=20 > > So, we have consensus on > > 1) low delay mode > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >=20 > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize = or call > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you think a key > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it needs = to captured > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree = with and then the > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. >=20 > Thanks, Cullen > =3D >=20 > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >=20 From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 09:05:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD6328B23E for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:05:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FQdHrW1ZhfmY for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og107.obsmtp.com (exprod7og107.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4044C3A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob107.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC4OV9PynyT0dZGCtoEfzUG1VH69Auu5@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:05:53 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:00:10 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "herve.taddei@huawei.com" , "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" , "hoene@uni-tuebingen.de" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:00:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEAAEinYGAAC8aeAAAJYuXg== Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C4@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:05:42 -0000 Herve, I am not pointing to that codec (AMR-WB) as an example of a low complexity = codec. Was just commenting that popular codecs (of any complexity) often ge= t informally chosen as a comparative benchmark. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Herve Taddei To: Michael Knappe; stephen.botzko@gmail.com ; ho= ene@uni-tuebingen.de Cc: codec@ietf.org Sent: Fri Jul 02 11:52:54 2010=0A= Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... Codecs as G.722 (10 MIPS), G.722.1 (about 5 WMOPS), G.722.1C (about 11 WMOPS) and G.719 (about 21 WMOPS) are usually considered as low complexity codecs for WB, SWB and FB bandwidths.=20 Other codecs as G.711 and its newly extensions have also very low complexit= y versions with G.711.0 (less than 2 WMOPS), G.711.1 (about 9 WMOPS) and very soon G.722/G.711.1 SWB. So 38 WMOPS is not really in the range of low complexity. Herve Taddei > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:22 PM > To: herve.taddei@huawei.com; stephen.botzko@gmail.com; hoene@uni- > tuebingen.de > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Herve, >=20 > I wasn't specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christian's email). I was > simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informal benchmarks > by the industry at large. >=20 > Mike >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Herve Taddei > To: Michael Knappe; 'stephen botzko' ; 'Christian > Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Sent: Fri Jul 02 09:16:47 2010 > Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at whic= h > bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good example of > a low complexity codec for WB services. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Herve >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry precedenc= e > for > > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A comes > to > > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized fixed > point > > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less > algorithm specific. > > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? > > > > Mike > > > > > > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: > > > > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represent > a > > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was asking > in my > > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the > consensus? > > > > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexity > as > > reference, for which reason? > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Herve Taddei > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > stephen botzko > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the list > that > > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable > suggestions > > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the specifics > were > > expressly discussed and generally agreed. > > > > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For > instance, a general > > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on > low-delay frame > > size. > > > > Regards > > Stephen Botzko > > > > > > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > > Hello, > > > > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > > > > > 1) low delay mode > > > > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay > of 8ms > > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is require > to support > > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > > conversational tasks. > > > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while > requiring less > > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > > > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system > > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that > the > > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as large > as the > > frame duration. > > > > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources wil= l > be > > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faster > than one > > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 > (smart phones) > > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. > > > > Any suggestion to improve it? > > > > With best regards, > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > > > > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > > > > > So, we have consensus on > > > 1) low delay mode > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or > call > > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If you > think a key > > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it needs to > captured > > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree with > and then the > > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. > > > > Thanks, Cullen > > =3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > codec mailing list > > codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > >=20 >=20 From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jul 2 09:24:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA803A68D6 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.880, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nmt9eZ1o4poS for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (mx06.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967253A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 (u-173-c044.cs.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.173.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o62GOLut010187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:24:22 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'stephen botzko'" References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> <003a01cb19e4$ccdb8ed0$6692ac70$@de> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:24:22 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <000a01cb1a03$07efa100$17cee300$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01CB1A13.CB787100" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsZ6hemFXX4lwD1Rz6VE0H5m1L9bgAFyK5g Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus: NOT checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; host: mx06) Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:24:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CB1A13.CB787100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, =20 =20 From: stephen botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:26 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... =20 I understand the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is = perfectly straightforward to adapt transforms to other sizes. G.719 for = instance uses a 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size. There = are many other examples that could be named. I don't think the sound = card argument is all that relevant, since that is a normal place to put = a buffer anyway, and there is no reason why that buffer needs to be = related to the frame size. [Christian Hoene] If it comes to ultra low delay, the buffering at the = sound card becomes important and must be optimized. Some sound cards = (and their DMA controller) have restrictions on the size of blocks = (called periods in ALSA). Having =E2=80=9Cstrange=E2=80=9D frame sizes = will increase the latency because of re-framing. Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work = backwards from technology contributions to create the requirements. =20 [Christian Hoene] You are right. However, the requirements have to be = realistic. Looking at existing technologies helps you to know what is = possible at the moment. The normal way in the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem = statements. IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good = results, and it is fair to all (past and future) contributors. BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed = internet music ensemble performances. While I am ok if that happens to = fall out of the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications = beyond delay. I would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance = for music ensembles if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP = folks would concur. Is there a more compelling (maybe less fun) use = case you can reference in the low-delay requirement? [Christian Hoene] Musical telepresence is a good use case because it is = the upper limit of quality. A monaural audio transmissions can hardly be = better. It is also a good marketing argument: The IWAC codec provides = the best audio quality at lowest latency. Also, this use-case is unique = because here is not no other standardized audio codec out here = supporting it. Please have a look on the following PhD to understand the requirements = of musical telepresence better: http://www.itm.uni-luebeck.de/users/carot/Docs/dissertation_AC.pdf Christian ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CB1A13.CB787100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stephen,

 

 

From: stephen botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:26 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary...

 

I = understand the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is perfectly straightforward to adapt transforms to other sizes.  G.719 = for instance uses a 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size.  = There are many other examples that could be named.  I don't think the sound = card argument is all that relevant, since that is a normal place to put a = buffer anyway, and there is no reason why that buffer needs to be related to = the frame size.

[Christian Hoene] If it comes to ultra low delay, the buffering at the sound card = becomes important and must be optimized. Some sound cards (and their DMA = controller) have restrictions on the size of blocks (called periods in ALSA). Having = =E2=80=9Cstrange=E2=80=9D frame sizes will increase the latency because of = re-framing.

Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work backwards from = technology contributions to create the requirements. 

[Christian Hoene] You are right. However, the requirements have to be realistic. = Looking at existing technologies helps you to know what is possible at the = moment.

The normal way in the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem = statements.  IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good results, and it is = fair to all (past and future) contributors.

BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed = internet music ensemble performances.  While I am ok if that happens = to fall out of the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications beyond delay.  I would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance = for music ensembles if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP = folks would concur.  Is there a more compelling  (maybe less fun) = use case you can reference in the low-delay requirement?

[Christian Hoene] Musical telepresence is a good use case because it is the upper = limit of quality. A monaural audio transmissions can hardly be better. It is also = a good marketing argument: The IWAC codec provides the best audio quality at = lowest latency. =C2=A0Also, this use-case is unique because =C2=A0here is not no other = standardized audio codec out here supporting it.

Please have a look on the following PhD to understand the requirements of = musical telepresence better:
http://www.itm.uni-luebeck.de/users/carot/Docs/dissertation_AC.pdf=

Christian

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CB1A13.CB787100-- From herve.taddei@huawei.com Fri Jul 2 10:13:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449AA28C0EE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woDPGpwHsu96 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrga02-in.huawei.com (lhrga02-in.huawei.com [195.33.106.143]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FE928C112 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrga02-in [172.18.7.45]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L4X008AVX6KU2@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:13:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.18.7.118]) by lhrga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L4X00FY7X6KSS@lhrga02-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:13:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [77.4.112.78]) by lhrms01-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:13:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:13:32 +0200 From: Herve Marcel Taddei 00900001 In-reply-to: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C4@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> To: Michael Knappe Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal References: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C4@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:13:26 -0000 Actually on my side=2C I am commenting on the Low complexity mode as desc= ribed by Christian=2E =3E 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) =3E The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while =3E requiring less =3E computational resources than a AMR-WB codec =3E (=3C 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G=2E192))=2E= What is less than 38 WMOPS=2C the LC mode or the codec by itself=2E Perha= ps some re-wording is needed there if the 38 WMOPS are not for the LC mod= e=2E In that case it would be nice to write down the complexity of the LC= mode=2E BTW=2C if you plan to use some ITU-T tools for your activity=2C it is per= haps a good idea to inform them=2E They could tell you for example that t= here is a STL 2009 library=2E =3A-) Herv=E9 *************************************************************************= ***************** This email and its attachments contain confidential information from HUA= WEI=2C which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is l= isted above=2E Any use of the information contained here in any way (incl= uding=2C but not limited to=2C total or partial disclosure=2C reproductio= n=2C or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is= prohibited=2E If you receive this email in error=2C please notify the se= nder by phone or email immediately and delete it! ************************************************************************= ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Michael Knappe =3Cmknappe=40juniper=2Enet=3E Date=3A Friday=2C July 2=2C 2010 6=3A08 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E To=3A =22herve=2Etaddei=40huawei=2Ecom=22 =3Cherve=2Etaddei=40huawei=2Eco= m=3E=2C =22stephen=2Ebotzko=40gmail=2Ecom=22 =3Cstephen=2Ebotzko=40gmail=2E= com=3E=2C =22hoene=40uni-tuebingen=2Ede=22 =3Choene=40uni-tuebingen=2Ede=3E= Cc=3A =22codec=40ietf=2Eorg=22 =3Ccodec=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E Herve=2C =3E = =3E I am not pointing to that codec (AMR-WB) as an example of a low = =3E complexity codec=2E Was just commenting that popular codecs (of any = =3E complexity) often get informally chosen as a comparative benchmark=2E= =3E = =3E Mike =3E = =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E From=3A Herve Taddei =3Cherve=2Etaddei=40huawei=2Ecom=3E =3E To=3A Michael Knappe=3B stephen=2Ebotzko=40gmail=2Ecom = =3E =3Cstephen=2Ebotzko=40gmail=2Ecom=3E=3B hoene=40uni-tuebingen=2Ede =3C= hoene=40uni- =3E tuebingen=2Ede=3ECc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3Ccodec=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E Sent=3A Fri Jul 02 11=3A52=3A54 2010 =3E Subject=3A RE=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E Codecs as G=2E722 (10 MIPS)=2C G=2E722=2E1 (about 5 WMOPS)=2C G=2E722= =2E1C = =3E (about 11 =3E WMOPS) and G=2E719 (about 21 WMOPS) are usually considered as low = =3E complexitycodecs for WB=2C SWB and FB bandwidths=2E = =3E = =3E Other codecs as G=2E711 and its newly extensions have also very low = =3E complexityversions with G=2E711=2E0 (less than 2 WMOPS)=2C G=2E711=2E= 1 = =3E (about 9 WMOPS) and very =3E soon G=2E722/G=2E711=2E1 SWB=2E =3E = =3E So 38 WMOPS is not really in the range of low complexity=2E =3E = =3E Herve Taddei =3E = =3E = =3E =3E -----Original Message----- =3E =3E From=3A Michael Knappe =5Bmailto=3Amknappe=40juniper=2Enet=5D =3E =3E Sent=3A Friday=2C July 02=2C 2010 5=3A22 PM =3E =3E To=3A herve=2Etaddei=40huawei=2Ecom=3B stephen=2Ebotzko=40gmail=2E= com=3B hoene=40uni- =3E =3E tuebingen=2Ede =3E =3E Cc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Herve=2C =3E =3E = =3E =3E I wasn=27t specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christi= an=27s =3E email)=2E I was =3E =3E simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informa= l =3E benchmarks =3E =3E by the industry at large=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Mike =3E =3E = =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A Herve Taddei =3Cherve=2Etaddei=40huawei=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E To=3A Michael Knappe=3B =27stephen botzko=27 =3Cstephen=2Ebotzko=40= gmail=2Ecom=3E=3B =3E =27Christian =3E =3E Hoene=27 =3Choene=40uni-tuebingen=2Ede=3E =3E =3E Cc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3Ccodec=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E =3E Sent=3A Fri Jul 02 09=3A16=3A47 2010 =3E =3E Subject=3A RE=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Hi Mike=2C =3E =3E = =3E =3E Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the = =3E way at which =3E =3E bandwidth=3F) I don=27t think I would name AMR-WB=2E G=2E722=2E1 = is a good = =3E exampleof =3E =3E a low complexity codec for WB services=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Best regards =3E =3E = =3E =3E Herve =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E -----Original Message----- =3E =3E =3E From=3A Michael Knappe =5Bmailto=3Amknappe=40juniper=2Enet=5D= =3E =3E =3E Sent=3A Friday=2C July 02=2C 2010 2=3A54 PM =3E =3E =3E To=3A Herve Taddei=3B =27stephen botzko=27=3B =27Christian Ho= ene=27 =3E =3E =3E Cc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On codec complexity benchmarking=2C there is certainly indust= ry = =3E precedence=3E for =3E =3E =3E using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide = =3E (G=2E729Acomes =3E =3E to =3E =3E =3E mind for narrowband codec comparisons)=2C but some form of = =3E generalizedfixed =3E =3E point =3E =3E =3E / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be = less =3E =3E algorithm specific=2E =3E =3E =3E Herve=2C Stephen=2C any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ra= tings=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Mike =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On 7/2/10 5=3A18 AM=2C =22Herve Taddei=22 =3Cherve=2Etaddei=40= huawei=2Ecom=3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I think I have the same opinion as Stephen=2C this does not r= eally =3E represent =3E =3E a =3E =3E =3E consensus as it never came on the table=2E This is exactly wh= at = =3E I was =3E asking =3E =3E in my =3E =3E =3E email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus=2C wha= t = =3E is the =3E =3E consensus=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise=2C why this value=3F The AMR-WB= codec =3E complexity =3E =3E as =3E =3E =3E reference=2C for which reason=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Kind regards =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Herve Taddei =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E From=3A codec-bounces=40ietf=2Eorg =5Bmailto=3Acodec-bounces=40= ietf=2Eorg=5D = =3E On Behalf =3E Of =3E =3E =3E stephen botzko =3E =3E =3E Sent=3A Friday=2C July 02=2C 2010 1=3A14 PM =3E =3E =3E To=3A Christian Hoene =3E =3E =3E Cc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bcodec=5D Suggested summary=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Maybe I somehow missed it=2C but i do not see any discussions= on = =3E the list =3E =3E that =3E =3E =3E support your consensus claim=2E While perhaps they are reaso= nable =3E =3E suggestions =3E =3E =3E that we can discuss further=2C for me consensus means that th= e = =3E specifics=3E were =3E =3E =3E expressly discussed and generally agreed=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list=2E= For =3E =3E instance=2C a general =3E =3E =3E support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB=2C and a 5 1/3 = =3E ceiling on =3E =3E low-delay frame =3E =3E =3E size=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Regards =3E =3E =3E Stephen Botzko =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene =3Choene=40uni-tuebingen=2Ede=3E =3E =3E =3E Hello=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E taking Cullen advise=2C I would like to suggest the following= = =3E summary=2E=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E 1) low delay mode =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an = =3E algorithmicdelay =3E =3E of 8ms =3E =3E =3E or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less=2E = =3E This is =3E require =3E =3E to support =3E =3E =3E ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly = =3E interactive=3E =3E conversational tasks=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode w= hile =3E =3E requiring less =3E =3E =3E computational resources than a AMR-WB codec =3E =3E =3E (=3C 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G=2E= 192))=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on diff= erent =3E platforms =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Standard ITU-T G=2E114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how differ= ent = =3E system=3E =3E components contribute to the one-way transmission delay= =2E = =3E It states that =3E =3E the =3E =3E =3E processing time of the codec contributes with an additional = =3E delay as =3E large =3E =3E as the =3E =3E =3E frame duration=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E However=2C it is common consensus that plenty computational = =3E resources will =3E =3E be =3E =3E =3E available most of the time=2E Then=2C the codec processing wi= ll be = =3E muchfaster =3E =3E than one =3E =3E =3E frame duration=2E Typical values are range from a factor fast= er = =3E of 100 =3E =3E (smart phones) =3E =3E =3E to 1000 (PCs)=2E A device working at full load is a rare case= =2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Any suggestion to improve it=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E With best regards=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Christian =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -------------------------------------------------------------= -- =3E =3E =3E Dr=2E-Ing=2E Christian Hoene =3E =3E =3E Interactive Communication Systems (ICS)=2C University of T=FC= bingen =3E =3E =3E Sand 13=2C 72076 T=FCbingen=2C Germany=2C Phone +49 7071 2970= 532 =3E =3E =3E http=3A//www=2Enet=2Euni-tuebingen=2Ede/ =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -----Original Message----- =3E =3E =3E From=3A Cullen Jennings =5Bmailto=3Afluffy=40cisco=2Ecom=5D =3E =3E =3E Sent=3A Monday=2C June 21=2C 2010 7=3A21 PM =3E =3E =3E To=3A Christian Hoene =3E =3E =3E Cc=3A codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bcodec=5D =2316=3A Multicast=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On May 27=2C 2010=2C at 9=3A48 AM=2C Christian Hoene wrote=3A= =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E So=2C we have consensus on =3E =3E =3E =3E 1) low delay mode =3E =3E =3E =3E 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) =3E =3E =3E =3E 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on diff= erent =3E platforms =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E From a Chair point of view=2C I don=27t think the Chairs coul= d = =3E summarize or =3E =3E call =3E =3E =3E consensus on these three - however=2C I=27m not sure that mat= ters=2E = =3E If you =3E =3E think a key =3E =3E =3E piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that= = =3E it needs =3E to =3E =3E captured =3E =3E =3E in the archive=2C can you summarize what you think it is folk= s = =3E agree with =3E =3E and then the =3E =3E =3E chairs can make some sort of consensus call=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Thanks=2C Cullen =3Cwith my chair hat on=3E =3E =3E =3E =3D =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F =3E =3E =3E codec mailing list =3E =3E =3E codec=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E =3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/codec =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 10:17:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A55728C134 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:17:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5CeVsTNMGuP for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og105.obsmtp.com (exprod7og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391CF3A6877 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob105.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC4fOHqN4B3jvLMkf3K2TdaSCFTrixuX@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:17:52 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([::1]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:16:02 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: Herve Marcel Taddei 00900001 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:15:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsaCefSlTDY+ogIRZ6KoNM8PzXhSAAAFTYy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:17:42 -0000 Got it :-) Email is not always the best collaborative tool... :-) Cheers, Mike On 7/2/10 10:13 AM, "Herve Marcel Taddei 00900001" wrote: > Actually on my side, I am commenting on the Low complexity mode as descri= bed > by Christian. >=20 >> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >> The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while >> requiring less >> computational resources than a AMR-WB codec >> (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >=20 > What is less than 38 WMOPS, the LC mode or the codec by itself. Perhaps s= ome > re-wording is needed there if the 38 WMOPS are not for the LC mode. In th= at > case it would be nice to write down the complexity of the LC mode. >=20 > BTW, if you plan to use some ITU-T tools for your activity, it is perhaps= a > good idea to inform them. They could tell you for example that there is a= STL > 2009 library. :-) >=20 > Herv=E9 >=20 >=20 >=20 > *************************************************************************= ***** > ************ > This email and its attachments contain confidential information from HUA= WEI, > which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed a= bove. > Any use of the information contained here in any way (including, but not > limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) = by > persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receiv= e > this email in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediate= ly > and delete it! > =20 > *************************************************************************= ***** > *********** >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Knappe > Date: Friday, July 2, 2010 6:08 pm > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > To: "herve.taddei@huawei.com" , > "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" , > "hoene@uni-tuebingen.de" > Cc: "codec@ietf.org" >=20 >> Herve, >>=20 >> I am not pointing to that codec (AMR-WB) as an example of a low >> complexity codec. Was just commenting that popular codecs (of any >> complexity) often get informally chosen as a comparative benchmark. >>=20 >> Mike >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Herve Taddei >> To: Michael Knappe; stephen.botzko@gmail.com >> ; hoene@uni-tuebingen.de > tuebingen.de>Cc: codec@ietf.org >> Sent: Fri Jul 02 11:52:54 2010 >> Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >>=20 >> Codecs as G.722 (10 MIPS), G.722.1 (about 5 WMOPS), G.722.1C >> (about 11 >> WMOPS) and G.719 (about 21 WMOPS) are usually considered as low >> complexitycodecs for WB, SWB and FB bandwidths. >>=20 >> Other codecs as G.711 and its newly extensions have also very low >> complexityversions with G.711.0 (less than 2 WMOPS), G.711.1 >> (about 9 WMOPS) and very >> soon G.722/G.711.1 SWB. >>=20 >> So 38 WMOPS is not really in the range of low complexity. >>=20 >> Herve Taddei >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] >>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:22 PM >>> To: herve.taddei@huawei.com; stephen.botzko@gmail.com; hoene@uni- >>> tuebingen.de >>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>=20 >>> Herve, >>>=20 >>> I wasn't specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christian's >> email). I was >>> simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informal >> benchmarks >>> by the industry at large. >>>=20 >>> Mike >>>=20 >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Herve Taddei >>> To: Michael Knappe; 'stephen botzko' ; >> 'Christian >>> Hoene' >>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>> Sent: Fri Jul 02 09:16:47 2010 >>> Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>=20 >>> Hi Mike, >>>=20 >>> Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the >> way at which >>> bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good >> exampleof >>> a low complexity codec for WB services. >>>=20 >>> Best regards >>>=20 >>> Herve >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] >>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM >>>> To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>>=20 >>>> On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry >> precedence> for >>>> using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide >> (G.729Acomes >>> to >>>> mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of >> generalizedfixed >>> point >>>> / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less >>> algorithm specific. >>>> Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? >>>>=20 >>>> Mike >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really >> represent >>> a >>>> consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what >> I was >> asking >>> in my >>>> email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what >> is the >>> consensus? >>>>=20 >>>> The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec >> complexity >>> as >>>> reference, for which reason? >>>>=20 >>>> Kind regards >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Herve Taddei >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> ________________________________ >>>>=20 >>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >> Of >>>> stephen botzko >>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM >>>> To: Christian Hoene >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>>=20 >>>> Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on >> the list >>> that >>>> support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable >>> suggestions >>>> that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the >> specifics> were >>>> expressly discussed and generally agreed. >>>>=20 >>>> There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For >>> instance, a general >>>> support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 >> ceiling on >>> low-delay frame >>>> size. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>> Stephen Botzko >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene >>>> Hello, >>>>=20 >>>> taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following >> summary.> > >>>>> 1) low delay mode >>>>=20 >>>> The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an >> algorithmicdelay >>> of 8ms >>>> or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. >> This is >> require >>> to support >>>> ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly >> interactive> > conversational tasks. >>>>=20 >>>>> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >>>>=20 >>>> The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while >>> requiring less >>>> computational resources than a AMR-WB codec >>>> (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >>>>=20 >>>>> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different >> platforms >>>>=20 >>>> Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different >> system> > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. >> It states that >>> the >>>> processing time of the codec contributes with an additional >> delay as >> large >>> as the >>>> frame duration. >>>>=20 >>>> However, it is common consensus that plenty computational >> resources will >>> be >>>> available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be >> muchfaster >>> than one >>>> frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster >> of 100 >>> (smart phones) >>>> to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. >>>>=20 >>>> Any suggestion to improve it? >>>>=20 >>>> With best regards, >>>>=20 >>>> Christian >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene >>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen >>>> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 >>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM >>>> To: Christian Hoene >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> So, we have consensus on >>>>> 1) low delay mode >>>>> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >>>>> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different >> platforms >>>>=20 >>>> From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could >> summarize or >>> call >>>> consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. >> If you >>> think a key >>>> piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that >> it needs >> to >>> captured >>>> in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks >> agree with >>> and then the >>>> chairs can make some sort of consensus call. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, Cullen >>>> =3D >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> codec mailing list >>>> codec@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 From stewe@stewe.org Fri Jul 2 10:33:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336B328C118 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.649, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FniTnLWF9AMq for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stewe.org (stewe.org [85.214.122.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E766328C11D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (unverified [24.5.132.232]) by stewe.org (SurgeMail 3.9e) with ESMTP id 706164-1743317 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:33:46 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:33:32 -0700 From: Stephan Wenger To: "codec@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Don't use "lower complexity than that other standardized codec Thread-Index: AcsaDLDmucDGY+SjdECI+HnK/hGQ4Q== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 24.5.132.232 X-Authenticated-User: stewe@stewe.org X-ORBS-Stamp: Your IP (24.5.132.232) was found in the spamhaus database. http://www.spamhaus.net Subject: [codec] Don't use "lower complexity than that other standardized codec X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:33:47 -0000 Hi all, A general remark to comparisons with other standards using a quantifiable metric: Using complexity and G.722.1 as example only, I would suggest to avoid a requirement that is stated as the complexity of our codec shall be "less than" G.722.1. Such a statement rules out G.722.1 for the reason of failin= g a "less than" requirement, but allows codec with substantially the same complexity, given some minor tweaking. Doing so will almost certainly make sure that there would be bad feelings not only with eventual proponents of G.722.1 in the IETF context, but also in the organization that standardized G.722.1. Instead, if an upper ceiling is envisioned that is close to the complexity of G.722.1, I suggest to use "less or equal than". If you are interested in a complexity substantially lower than G.722.1, say so: "substantially less than the complexity of G.722.1", or, even better, "less than half the complexity of G.722.1". Fine tune as desired. Regards, Stephan On 7.2.2010 10:13 , "Herve Marcel Taddei 00900001" wrote: > Actually on my side, I am commenting on the Low complexity mode as descri= bed > by Christian. >=20 >> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >> The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while >> requiring less >> computational resources than a AMR-WB codec >> (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >=20 > What is less than 38 WMOPS, the LC mode or the codec by itself. Perhaps s= ome > re-wording is needed there if the 38 WMOPS are not for the LC mode. In th= at > case it would be nice to write down the complexity of the LC mode. >=20 > BTW, if you plan to use some ITU-T tools for your activity, it is perhaps= a > good idea to inform them. They could tell you for example that there is a= STL > 2009 library. :-) >=20 > Herv=E9 >=20 >=20 >=20 > *************************************************************************= ***** > ************ > This email and its attachments contain confidential information from HUA= WEI, > which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed a= bove. > Any use of the information contained here in any way (including, but not > limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) = by > persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receiv= e > this email in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediate= ly > and delete it! > =20 > *************************************************************************= ***** > *********** >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Knappe > Date: Friday, July 2, 2010 6:08 pm > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > To: "herve.taddei@huawei.com" , > "stephen.botzko@gmail.com" , > "hoene@uni-tuebingen.de" > Cc: "codec@ietf.org" >=20 >> Herve, >>=20 >> I am not pointing to that codec (AMR-WB) as an example of a low >> complexity codec. Was just commenting that popular codecs (of any >> complexity) often get informally chosen as a comparative benchmark. >>=20 >> Mike >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Herve Taddei >> To: Michael Knappe; stephen.botzko@gmail.com >> ; hoene@uni-tuebingen.de > tuebingen.de>Cc: codec@ietf.org >> Sent: Fri Jul 02 11:52:54 2010 >> Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >>=20 >> Codecs as G.722 (10 MIPS), G.722.1 (about 5 WMOPS), G.722.1C >> (about 11 >> WMOPS) and G.719 (about 21 WMOPS) are usually considered as low >> complexitycodecs for WB, SWB and FB bandwidths. >>=20 >> Other codecs as G.711 and its newly extensions have also very low >> complexityversions with G.711.0 (less than 2 WMOPS), G.711.1 >> (about 9 WMOPS) and very >> soon G.722/G.711.1 SWB. >>=20 >> So 38 WMOPS is not really in the range of low complexity. >>=20 >> Herve Taddei >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] >>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:22 PM >>> To: herve.taddei@huawei.com; stephen.botzko@gmail.com; hoene@uni- >>> tuebingen.de >>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>=20 >>> Herve, >>>=20 >>> I wasn't specifically suggesting AMR-WB (that came from Christian's >> email). I was >>> simply saying that popular named codecs are often used as informal >> benchmarks >>> by the industry at large. >>>=20 >>> Mike >>>=20 >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Herve Taddei >>> To: Michael Knappe; 'stephen botzko' ; >> 'Christian >>> Hoene' >>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>> Sent: Fri Jul 02 09:16:47 2010 >>> Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>=20 >>> Hi Mike, >>>=20 >>> Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the >> way at which >>> bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good >> exampleof >>> a low complexity codec for WB services. >>>=20 >>> Best regards >>>=20 >>> Herve >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] >>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM >>>> To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>>=20 >>>> On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry >> precedence> for >>>> using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide >> (G.729Acomes >>> to >>>> mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of >> generalizedfixed >>> point >>>> / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less >>> algorithm specific. >>>> Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? >>>>=20 >>>> Mike >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really >> represent >>> a >>>> consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what >> I was >> asking >>> in my >>>> email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what >> is the >>> consensus? >>>>=20 >>>> The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec >> complexity >>> as >>>> reference, for which reason? >>>>=20 >>>> Kind regards >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Herve Taddei >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> ________________________________ >>>>=20 >>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >> Of >>>> stephen botzko >>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM >>>> To: Christian Hoene >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... >>>>=20 >>>> Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on >> the list >>> that >>>> support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable >>> suggestions >>>> that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the >> specifics> were >>>> expressly discussed and generally agreed. >>>>=20 >>>> There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For >>> instance, a general >>>> support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 >> ceiling on >>> low-delay frame >>>> size. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>> Stephen Botzko >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene >>>> Hello, >>>>=20 >>>> taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following >> summary.> > >>>>> 1) low delay mode >>>>=20 >>>> The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an >> algorithmicdelay >>> of 8ms >>>> or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. >> This is >> require >>> to support >>>> ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly >> interactive> > conversational tasks. >>>>=20 >>>>> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >>>>=20 >>>> The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while >>> requiring less >>>> computational resources than a AMR-WB codec >>>> (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). >>>>=20 >>>>> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different >> platforms >>>>=20 >>>> Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different >> system> > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. >> It states that >>> the >>>> processing time of the codec contributes with an additional >> delay as >> large >>> as the >>>> frame duration. >>>>=20 >>>> However, it is common consensus that plenty computational >> resources will >>> be >>>> available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be >> muchfaster >>> than one >>>> frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster >> of 100 >>> (smart phones) >>>> to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. >>>>=20 >>>> Any suggestion to improve it? >>>>=20 >>>> With best regards, >>>>=20 >>>> Christian >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene >>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen >>>> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 >>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM >>>> To: Christian Hoene >>>> Cc: codec@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> So, we have consensus on >>>>> 1) low delay mode >>>>> 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) >>>>> 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different >> platforms >>>>=20 >>>> From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could >> summarize or >>> call >>>> consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. >> If you >>> think a key >>>> piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that >> it needs >> to >>> captured >>>> in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks >> agree with >>> and then the >>>> chairs can make some sort of consensus call. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, Cullen >>>> =3D >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> codec mailing list >>>> codec@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From stewe@stewe.org Fri Jul 2 10:56:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6B33A67B5 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.899, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mls0JkaK14J3 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stewe.org (stewe.org [85.214.122.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6213A6781 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (unverified [24.5.132.232]) by stewe.org (SurgeMail 3.9e) with ESMTP id 706181-1743317 for multiple; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:54:52 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:54:41 -0700 From: Stephan Wenger To: "codec@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls Thread-Index: AcsaD6VI85Xv21gVTU2pgleWzUv37A== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3360912892_2375886" X-Originating-IP: 24.5.132.232 X-Authenticated-User: stewe@stewe.org X-ORBS-Stamp: Your IP (24.5.132.232) was found in the spamhaus database. http://www.spamhaus.net Subject: [codec] Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:56:46 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3360912892_2375886 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I think I speak for many of us here when thanking Christian for his efforts in organizing our discussion of requirements, maintaining the tracker, and the logistical support he is providing in facilitating our requirements discussion. He quite obviously has taken a tremendous amount of workload away from the chairs, which is, generally speaking, a desirable think in th= e IETF. We have, I think, lost some momentum over the past few months, and I think that may be at least in party due to what I perceive as a certain passiveness of the chairs. My perception is based on mailing list traffic alone; I have no insight in what may be going on behind the scenes, and I may be entirely wrong with my perception. It=B9s clear that in the IETF context the chairs ultimately call for, and (more importantly) declare consensus. However, I also think it is within Christians rights as one of the most active participants here to push towards consensus forming when he sees fit. My suggestion to anyone who wishes to improve the (glacial?) speed we had over the last couple of weeks (or is it months, by now?) would be to formulate and propose a consensus call=8Bwithout making the suggestion that this call has been actually made, or that consensus has been reached. If the chairs do not jump on such an opportunity, I think it is again absolutely in every participants right to push the chairs towards making th= e call or declare consensus, as the case may be. Of course, one possible answer by the chairs would be an explanation why they see that it would be inadvisable to make that call at this point in time. After all, they have not only the authority, but also the IETF experience in dealing with this stuff; otherwise, they wouldn=B9t be chairs. Whether that pushing is done in private conversation with the chairs or on the public list is, I believe, that person=B9s choice=8Bin other WGs, I have personally used both options depending on the situation. In other words, I think there is nothing wrong with a bit of pushiness in the current state of affairs, and I would like to thank Christian for being pushy. Regards, Stephan --B_3360912892_2375886 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls Hi all,

I think I speak for many of us here when thanking Christian for his efforts= in organizing our discussion of requirements, maintaining the tracker, and = the logistical support he is providing in facilitating our requirements disc= ussion.  He quite obviously has taken a tremendous amount of workload a= way from the chairs, which is, generally speaking, a desirable think in the = IETF.

We have, I think, lost some momentum over the past few months, and I think = that may be at least in party due to what I perceive as a certain passivenes= s of the chairs.  My perception is based on mailing list traffic alone;= I have no insight in what may be going on behind the scenes, and I may be e= ntirely wrong with my perception.

It’s clear that in the IETF context the chairs ultimately call for, a= nd (more importantly) declare consensus.  However, I also think it is w= ithin Christians rights as one of the most active participants here to push = towards consensus forming when he sees fit.  

My suggestion to anyone who wishes to improve the (glacial?) speed we had o= ver the last couple of weeks (or is it months, by now?) would be to formulat= e and propose a consensus call—without making the suggestion that this= call has been actually made, or that consensus has been reached.  If t= he chairs do not jump on such an opportunity, I think it is again absolutely= in every participants right to push the chairs towards making the call or d= eclare consensus, as the case may be.  Of course, one possible answer b= y the chairs would be an explanation why they see that it would be inadvisab= le to make that call at this point in time.  After all, they have not o= nly the authority, but also the IETF experience in dealing with this stuff; = otherwise, they wouldn’t be chairs.  Whether that pushing is done= in private conversation with the chairs or on the public list is, I believe= , that person’s choice—in other WGs, I have personally used both= options depending on the situation.

In other words, I think there is nothing wrong with a bit of pushiness in t= he current state of affairs, and I would like to thank Christian for being p= ushy.

Regards,
Stephan
 --B_3360912892_2375886-- From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 11:42:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4103A6850 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.550, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BAD_LINEBREAK=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JtXCiVaHRUxH for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og107.obsmtp.com (exprod7og107.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9253A67F9 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob107.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC4y6n/IY6tNaUbB16ntDKz63RrYnlrq@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:42:12 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::fc92:eb1:759:2c72%11]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:34:32 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "stewe@stewe.org" , "codec@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:34:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls Thread-Index: AcsaD6VI85Xv21gVTU2pgleWzUv37AABY87p Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C7@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C7EMBX02HQjnprn_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [codec] Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8Lz7i1Pxf0W for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44363A67F9 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28so720036gxk.31 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:43:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qMepDeGlb7dg7AJj6QrxdLZYo6uVCL44/7b/POHmRGM=; b=rF3RMjjDAAduMmctf4proNFsqItyMeDEbGq9Gm+5udz65jwtWpQ64bOBo5WViAx6Ii qM7fdp23DzlzluP9fh9pARo3yP8hkHvGYINUjZUyVWm3qqtMG4yyxbX7fpRK940gheEJ UgmxiJ/YmDTm7zLk7b4qifewSsxS5QFO2IYfQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=GJSTaqgOZt1c95HzW2n+sfFy3iYEgE+zwfEjY00QG6KQdTVr3WmZKE2qH9hPo64UKd gPiK7mVnzCF9uB9oO5QtwxQ8f2NhlncxKXwYBrQgFSvoGEGUgB7vGIgzhVFjUmDFnJdY 2R6oGDLiKWSxgXQvZlw5zC3yaUuO0KHLgAhdY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.34.7 with SMTP id h7mr1867176agh.112.1278096202087; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.82.7 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:43:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <000a01cb1a03$07efa100$17cee300$@de> References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> <003a01cb19e4$ccdb8ed0$6692ac70$@de> <000a01cb1a03$07efa100$17cee300$@de> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:43:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: stephen botzko To: Christian Hoene Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0014853c975e1d7c20048a6bf616 Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:43:15 -0000 --0014853c975e1d7c20048a6bf616 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christian You are not mandating a 256 sample multiple on frame size, you are proposin= g it as a maximum for the low delay mode. So smaller "strange" frame sizes are still allowed, and re-framing might be needed for some receivers. Locking the frame size to a specific sound card's quirks does not make sens= e to me, esp. since there are lots of sound cards out there, and they certainly will have different quirks. I agree that musical telepresence is fun to talk about, and would be fun to build and use. That is different from saying it is an essential applicatio= n for CODEC to work on. In my opinion it is not. The delay bound alone limit= s its use severely over the wide-area internet. There is room for other opinions, but I'd like to register mine. Stephen Botzko 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > Hi Stephen, > > > > > > *From:* stephen botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, July 02, 2010 3:26 PM > *To:* Christian Hoene > *Cc:* Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > I understand the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is > perfectly straightforward to adapt transforms to other sizes. G.719 for > instance uses a 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size. There are > many other examples that could be named. I don't think the sound card > argument is all that relevant, since that is a normal place to put a buff= er > anyway, and there is no reason why that buffer needs to be related to the > frame size. > > *[Christian Hoene] If it comes to ultra low delay, the buffering at the > sound card becomes important and must be optimized. Some sound cards (and > their DMA controller) have restrictions on the size of blocks (called > periods in ALSA). Having =93strange=94 frame sizes will increase the late= ncy > because of re-framing.* > > Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work > backwards from technology contributions to create the requirements. > > *[Christian Hoene] You are right. However, the requirements have to be > realistic. Looking at existing technologies helps you to know what is > possible at the moment.* > > The normal way in the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem > statements. IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good results= , > and it is fair to all (past and future) contributors. > > BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed intern= et > music ensemble performances. While I am ok if that happens to fall out o= f > the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications beyond delay. I > would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance for music ensembl= es > if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP folks would concur. = Is > there a more compelling (maybe less fun) use case you can reference in t= he > low-delay requirement? > > ** > > *[Christian Hoene] Musical telepresence is a good use case because it is > the upper limit of quality. A monaural audio transmissions can hardly be > better. It is also a good marketing argument: The IWAC codec provides the > best audio quality at lowest latency. Also, this use-case is unique beca= use > here is not no other standardized audio codec out here supporting it.* > > *Please have a look on the following PhD to understand the requirements o= f > musical telepresence better: > http://www.itm.uni-luebeck.de/users/carot/Docs/dissertation_AC.pdf* > > *Christian* > --0014853c975e1d7c20048a6bf616 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christian

You are not mandating a 256 sample multiple on frame si= ze, you are proposing it as a maximum for the low delay mode.=A0 So smaller= "strange" frame sizes are still allowed, and re-framing might be= needed for some receivers.=A0 Locking the frame size to a specific sound c= ard's quirks does not make sense to me, esp. since there are lots of so= und cards out there, and they certainly will have different quirks.

I agree that musical telepresence is fun to talk about, and would be fu= n to build and use.=A0 That is different from saying it is an essential app= lication for CODEC to work on.=A0 In my opinion it is not. The delay bound = alone limits its use severely over the wide-area internet.=A0 There is room= for other opinions, but I'd like to register mine.=A0

Stephen Botzko


2010/7/2 Christia= n Hoene <hoe= ne@uni-tuebingen.de>

Hi Stephen,

=A0

=A0

F= rom: stephen bot= zko [mailto:steph= en.botzko@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:26 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary...

=A0

= I understand the 256 sample size (I did the math also!), though it is perfectly straightforward to adapt transforms to other sizes.=A0 G.719 for instance uses a 960 sample DCT transform for 20 ms frame size.=A0 There are many other examples that could be named.=A0 I don't think the sound car= d argument is all that relevant, since that is a normal place to put a buffer anyway, and there is no reason why that buffer needs to be related to the f= rame size.

[Christian Hoene] If it comes to ultra low delay, the buffering at the sound card beco= mes important and must be optimized. Some sound cards (and their DMA controller= ) have restrictions on the size of blocks (called periods in ALSA). Having = =93strange=94 frame sizes will increase the latency because of re-framing.=

= Perhaps more importantly, I do not think it is appropriate to work backwards from techno= logy contributions to create the requirements.=A0

[Christian Hoene] You are right. However, the requirements have to be realistic. Looki= ng at existing technologies helps you to know what is possible at the moment.<= /span>

= The normal way in the IETF is to work forward from use cases and problem statements.=A0 IMHO working forward is much more likely to get good results, and it is fai= r to all (past and future) contributors.

BTW, personally I do not place a very high priority on distributed internet music ensemble performances.=A0 While I am ok if that happens to fal= l out of the design, it possibly has a lot of other implications beyond delay.=A0 I would happily trade outstanding packet loss performance for music ensembles if it came down to it, and I suspect many other VOIP folks would concur.=A0 Is there a more compelling=A0 (maybe less fun) use case you can reference in the low-delay requirement?

[Christian Hoene] Musical telepresence is a good use case because it is the upper limi= t of quality. A monaural audio transmissions can hardly be better. It is also a = good marketing argument: The IWAC codec provides the best audio quality at lowes= t latency. =A0Also, this use-case is unique because =A0here is not no other standardiz= ed audio codec out here supporting it.

Please have a look on the following PhD to understand the requirements of musical telepresence better:
http://www.itm.uni-luebeck.de/users/carot/Docs/disser= tation_AC.pdf

Christian<= /i>


--0014853c975e1d7c20048a6bf616-- From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 12:17:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1FD3A681F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BAD_LINEBREAK=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVXYQnPqSSD5 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og104.obsmtp.com (exprod7og104.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B103A67A3 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by 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(stewe.org [85.214.122.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0FD3A68A0 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (unverified [24.5.132.232]) by stewe.org (SurgeMail 3.9e) with ESMTP id 706346-1743317 for multiple; Sat, 03 Jul 2010 00:54:03 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:49:28 -0700 From: Stephan Wenger To: Michael Knappe , "codec@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls Thread-Index: AcsaD6VI85Xv21gVTU2pgleWzUv37AABY87pAAjnw7g= In-Reply-To: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2C7@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3360930841_3273518" X-Originating-IP: 24.5.132.232 X-Authenticated-User: stewe@stewe.org X-ORBS-Stamp: Your IP (24.5.132.232) was found in the spamhaus database. http://www.spamhaus.net Subject: Re: [codec] Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:55:33 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3360930841_3273518 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, It=B9s good (and not unexpected) to hear that you guys are on your job. Obviously, a lot is being done behind the scenes. Not the most unusual thing in the IETF :-) One question though: what=B9s the status of that code you mentioned that Koen and Jean-Marc are working on? I do not recall any organized WG activity towards code at this point in time. Are we talking about a joint proposal developed between the two (and their respective companies/supporters)? Thanks for the clarification. See you all in Maastricht. Regards, Stephan On 7.2.2010 11:34 , "Michael Knappe" wrote: > Stephan, >=20 > Christian has been an absolutely key contributor, agree with you 100%, an= d in > our (almost) weekly wg chair status call, he frequently comes up as a not= ed > superstar. Many thanks to Christian! >=20 > Although we too have noted the relative quiet in the past month or so on = the > mailing list, there is more going on behind the scenes. Christian and I h= ave > been actively discussing a quality assessment presentation for Maastricht= , and > Koen and Jean-Marc are actively working on code. Jonathan and I just fini= shed > up an agenda discussion, the draft agenda for Maastricht is being sent ou= t > today. Agree that we do need to bring as many outstanding codec parameter > issues to closure, and we plan on spending the weeks leading up to Maastr= icht > to accomplish that, with a healthy time slot set aside at Maastrich for i= n > person discussion. >=20 > Hope that helps, look forward to seeing everyone in Maastricht. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > From: Stephan Wenger > To: codec@ietf.org > Cc: Christian Hoene ; Jonathan Rosenberg > ; fluffy@cisco.com ; Michael Knapp= e > Sent: Fri Jul 02 13:54:41 2010 > Subject: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls > Hi all, >=20 > I think I speak for many of us here when thanking Christian for his effor= ts in > organizing our discussion of requirements, maintaining the tracker, and t= he > logistical support he is providing in facilitating our requirements > discussion. He quite obviously has taken a tremendous amount of workload= away > from the chairs, which is, generally speaking, a desirable think in the I= ETF. >=20 > We have, I think, lost some momentum over the past few months, and I thin= k > that may be at least in party due to what I perceive as a certain passive= ness > of the chairs. My perception is based on mailing list traffic alone; I h= ave > no insight in what may be going on behind the scenes, and I may be entire= ly > wrong with my perception. >=20 > It=B9s clear that in the IETF context the chairs ultimately call for, and (= more > importantly) declare consensus. However, I also think it is within Chris= tians > rights as one of the most active participants here to push towards consen= sus > forming when he sees fit. >=20 > My suggestion to anyone who wishes to improve the (glacial?) speed we had= over > the last couple of weeks (or is it months, by now?) would be to formulate= and > propose a consensus call=8Bwithout making the suggestion that this call has= been > actually made, or that consensus has been reached. If the chairs do not = jump > on such an opportunity, I think it is again absolutely in every participa= nts > right to push the chairs towards making the call or declare consensus, as= the > case may be. Of course, one possible answer by the chairs would be an > explanation why they see that it would be inadvisable to make that call a= t > this point in time. After all, they have not only the authority, but als= o the > IETF experience in dealing with this stuff; otherwise, they wouldn=B9t be > chairs. Whether that pushing is done in private conversation with the ch= airs > or on the public list is, I believe, that person=B9s choice=8Bin other WGs, I= have > personally used both options depending on the situation. >=20 > In other words, I think there is nothing wrong with a bit of pushiness in= the > current state of affairs, and I would like to thank Christian for being p= ushy. >=20 > Regards, > Stephan >=20 --B_3360930841_3273518 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls Hi Michael,
It’s good (and not unexpected) to hear that you guys are on your job.=  Obviously, a lot is being done behind the scenes.  Not the most = unusual thing in the IETF :-)
One question though: what’s the status of that code you mentioned tha= t Koen and Jean-Marc are working on?  I do not recall any organized WG = activity towards code at this point in time.  Are we talking about a jo= int proposal developed between the two (and their respective companies/suppo= rters)?
Thanks for the clarification.
See you all in Maastricht.
Regards,
Stephan



On 7.2.2010 11:34 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:

Stephan,

Christian has been an absolutely key contributor, agree with you 100%, and = in our (almost) weekly wg chair status call, he frequently comes up as a not= ed superstar. Many thanks to Christian!

Although we too have noted the relative quiet in the past month or so on th= e mailing list, there is more going on behind the scenes. Christian and I ha= ve been actively discussing a quality assessment presentation for Maastricht= , and Koen and Jean-Marc are actively working on code. Jonathan and I just f= inished up an agenda discussion, the draft agenda for Maastricht is being se= nt out today. Agree that we do need to bring as many outstanding codec param= eter issues to closure, and we plan on spending the weeks leading up to Maas= tricht to accomplish that, with a healthy time slot set aside at Maastrich f= or in person discussion.

Hope that helps, look forward to seeing everyone in Maastricht.

Cheers,

Mike

From: Stephan Wenger <= stewe@stewe.org>
To: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
Cc: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-t= uebingen.de>; Jonathan Rosenberg <jd= rosen@jdrosen.net>; fluffy@cisco.com &= lt;fluffy@cisco.com>; Michael Knappe
Sent: Fri Jul 02 13:54:41 2010
Subject: Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls
Hi all,

I think I speak for many of us here when thanking Christian for his efforts= in organizing our discussion of requirements, maintaining the tracker, and = the logistical support he is providing in facilitating our requirements disc= ussion.  He quite obviously has taken a tremendous amount of workload a= way from the chairs, which is, generally speaking, a desirable think in the = IETF.

We have, I think, lost some momentum over the past few months, and I think = that may be at least in party due to what I perceive as a certain passivenes= s of the chairs.  My perception is based on mailing list traffic alone;= I have no insight in what may be going on behind the scenes, and I may be e= ntirely wrong with my perception.

It’s clear that in the IETF context the chairs ultimately call for, a= nd (more importantly) declare consensus.  However, I also think it is w= ithin Christians rights as one of the most active participants here to push = towards consensus forming when he sees fit.  

My suggestion to anyone who wishes to improve the (glacial?) speed we had o= ver the last couple of weeks (or is it months, by now?) would be to formulat= e and propose a consensus call—without making the suggestion that this= call has been actually made, or that consensus has been reached.  If t= he chairs do not jump on such an opportunity, I think it is again absolutely= in every participants right to push the chairs towards making the call or d= eclare consensus, as the case may be.  Of course, one possible answer b= y the chairs would be an explanation why they see that it would be inadvisab= le to make that call at this point in time.  After all, they have not o= nly the authority, but also the IETF experience in dealing with this stuff; = otherwise, they wouldn’t be chairs.  Whether that pushing is done= in private conversation with the chairs or on the public list is, I believe= , that person’s choice—in other WGs, I have personally used both= options depending on the situation.

In other words, I think there is nothing wrong with a bit of pushiness in t= he current state of affairs, and I would like to thank Christian for being p= ushy.

Regards,
Stephan

--B_3360930841_3273518-- From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 2 16:27:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329853A68F3 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dhy4U+vctAxc for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og115.obsmtp.com (exprod7og115.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.217]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A413A68C7 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob115.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTC511HHrI8qxOzpuadNmkTzA9GWJL+BW@postini.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:27:16 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:20:55 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:20:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 Thread-Index: AcsaPTaBkjsYpoIxsEGpcLzhPbCBHg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 23:27:05 -0000 Meeting to be held Monday, July 26th, 2010 from 13:00-15:00 in Auditorium 2= . Here is the draft agenda for the meeting, comments and suggestions welcome: 1. Administrivia (10 min) 2. Codec development and collaboration progress to date (individual short presentations) (30 min) 3. Technical requirements update (review and closure of open action items) (30 min) 4. Codec testing methodology background and test house / workflow proposal (40 min incl open mic discussion) 5. Summary / action items (10 min) Cheers, Mike From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 2 18:34:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABAE3A690E for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:34:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ina0E7J+9x1N for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MMS3.broadcom.com (mms3.broadcom.com [216.31.210.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927263A659B for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.131] by MMS3.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:34:35 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: B55A25B1-5D7D-41F8-BC53-C57E7AD3C201 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.131]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:34:35 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Christian Hoene" , "'Cullen Jennings'" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:34:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsRZil0HQ7IYcfiQc6J3HE4d/X1hQIVooqAACKzfyA= Message-ID: References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"CB68DF4! ! ! ! CFBEF49428 8C74B9 043D 30 B"@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <909E12B9-984F-4051-A93E-2291EFE0A40E@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> In-Reply-To: <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 60304C213KC23422662-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 01:34:41 -0000 SGkgQ2hyaXN0aWFuLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgc3VtbWFyeS4gIFNvbWUgY29tbWVudHMg b24gMikgYW5kIDMpIGJlbG93Lg0KDQoyKSBsb3cgY29tcGxleGl0eSBtb2RlOiANCkFsbCBlbHNl IGJlaW5nIGVxdWFsIG9yIGNvbXBhcmFibGUsIHRoZSBsb3dlciB0aGUgY29tcGxleGl0eSwgdGhl IA0KYmV0dGVyLiAgQmVzaWRlcyBNSVBTIG9yIFdNT1BTLCB0aGUgbWVtb3J5IGZvb3RwcmludCBp cyBhbm90aGVyIA0KaW1wb3J0YW50IGFzcGVjdCBvZiBjb21wbGV4aXR5IHRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIGJl IGNvbnNpZGVyZWQuICANCkZ1cnRoZXJtb3JlLCBpZiB3ZSB3YW50IHRvIHNwZWNpZnkgYSBjb21w bGV4aXR5IHRhcmdldCwgdGhlbiBpbiANCmFkZGl0aW9uIHRvIGEgdGFyZ2V0IGZvciB0aGUgZnVs bC1iYW5kIDQ4IGtIeiBzYW1wbGluZyByYXRlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCANCmJlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBzcGVj aWZ5IGFsc28gdGhlIGNvbXBsZXhpdHkgdGFyZ2V0cyBmb3IgbG93ZXIgc2FtcGxpbmcgDQpyYXRl cyBzdWNoIGFzIDE2IGFuZCA4IGtIeiwgc2luY2UgdGhlIGNvZGVjIG1heSBvcGVyYXRlIGF0IHRo 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34o0oeE7JzHQ for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (mx05.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE3A3A65A6 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 ([178.2.212.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o64D2rPS002784 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:03:02 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: References: <000601cb143e$ee851ca0$cb8f55e0$@de> In-Reply-To: <000601cb143e$ee851ca0$cb8f55e0$@de> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:02:53 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <001c01cb1b79$3d492e30$b7db8a90$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsUPs/YWbkxGWUjSua5XovSyizTjQHNp71w Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus-Spam-Check: clean (checked by Avira MailGate: version: 3.0.0-4; spam filter version: 3.0.0/2.0; host: mx05) X-AntiVirus: checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; AVE: 8.2.4.2; VDF: 7.10.8.247; host: mx05); id=8638-jGKAR4 Subject: Re: [codec] Comparing codec contributions X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:03:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_001F_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30" ------=_NextPart_002_001F_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, =20 Raymond identified a miscalculation in the former excel sheet. Here an = updated version. In addition, you can selected the relative amount of = processing delay freely (e.g., Koen: something around 1%, Raymond: = something between 100% and 200%). The lower bound is limited by packet = headers (464 bits for the moment) and algorithmic delay. =20 With best regards, Christian =20 This graph is for 10% processing overhead and 464 bits packet over. =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Christian Hoene Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 10:18 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] Comparing codec contributions =20 Hi,=20 =20 I just set up the attached excel sheet to compare the codec = contributions. I just plotted the algorithmic delay/rate tradeoffs for = different coding modes and frames per packet. As a packet overhead I = assumed 464 bits. =20 If you think the values in the Excel might be wrong, please feel free to = correct them. =20 With best regards, =20 Christian =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 ------=_NextPart_002_001F_01CB1B8A.00D1FE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

Raymond = identified a miscalculation in the former excel sheet. Here an updated version. = =C2=A0In addition, you can selected the relative amount of processing delay = freely (e.g., Koen: something around 1%, Raymond: something between 100% and 200%). = The lower bound is limited by packet headers (464 bits for the moment) and = algorithmic delay.

 

With = best regards,

=C2=A0Christian

 

This = graph is for 10% processing overhead and 464 bits packet over.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------= -----

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of = T=C3=BCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 = 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de= /

 

From:= codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Christian Hoene
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 10:18 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Comparing codec = contributions

 

Hi,

 

I just set up the attached excel = sheet to compare the codec contributions. I just plotted the algorithmic = delay/rate tradeoffs for different coding modes and frames per packet. As a packet overhead I assumed 464 bits.

 

If you think the values in the = Excel might be wrong, please feel free to correct them.

 

With best = regards,

 

 Christian

 

 

-------------------------= --------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen =

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 =

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de= /

 

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codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B3D3A67E2 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:34:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T1rGirKxgj0s for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (mx05.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24DA3A680D for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 ([178.2.212.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o64DXwIR004542 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:34:06 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Raymond \(Juin-Hwey\) Chen'" References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"CB68DF4! ! ! ! ! CFBEF49428 8C74 B9 043D 30 B"@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <909E12B9-984F-4051-A93E-2291EFE0A40E@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:33:59 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <002901cb1b7d$94cb3b40$be61b1c0$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcsRZil0HQ7IYcfiQc6J3HE4d/X1hQIVooqAACKzfyAATIw04A== Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus-Spam-Check: clean (checked by Avira MailGate: version: 3.0.0-4; spam filter version: 3.0.0/2.0; host: mx05) X-AntiVirus: checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; AVE: 8.2.4.2; VDF: 7.10.8.247; host: mx05); id=8638-5E6xVV Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:34:16 -0000 Hi Raymond, Inline some comments of mine are inline Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen [mailto:rchen@broadcom.com]=20 Hi Christian, Thanks for your summary. Some comments on 2) and 3) below. 2) low complexity mode:=20 All else being equal or comparable, the lower the complexity, the=20 better. Besides MIPS or WMOPS, the memory footprint is another=20 important aspect of complexity that should be considered. =20 [Christian Hoene] Any suggested minimal and median values?=20 Furthermore, if we want to specify a complexity target, then in=20 addition to a target for the full-band 48 kHz sampling rate, it would=20 be useful to specify also the complexity targets for lower sampling=20 rates such as 16 and 8 kHz, since the codec may operate at these=20 lower sampling rates in some important voice-centric applications. [Christian Hoene] Upps, the minimal complexity values were meant = regardless of the sampling rate 3) How latency sums up:=20 Thanks for mentioning the ITU-T G.114, which has a good discussion of=20 the codec-related one-way delay along the line of what we discussed=20 in the emails.=20 [Christian Hoene] Yes, but I forgot to mention that is was industry = consensus ten years ago. Things have changed. However, I disagree with the statement that "Typical=20 values are range from a factor faster of 100 (smart phones) to 1000=20 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case." It is not at=20 all a rare case to find devices running at or close to full load. A=20 good example is VoIP gateways. =20 [Christian Hoene] Sorry, a telecommunication network overrating at full = load is a rare case. For example, around New Year's Eve networks tend = to become overloaded: 2h per one year. Typically, the network shall be = loaded somewhere between 5 and 20% or less. Even if you assume that all = traffic is between end device and gateway (which is not the case - end = to end IP is a more reasonable scenario), then the gateway is fully = loaded less than 1<% of the time. Also, in numerous occasions I have=20 seen engineers trying very hard to cut the complexity of algorithms=20 to make them fit the processing power of existing DSPs or host=20 processors. That means the resulting implementations would have the=20 processor essentially fully loaded. =20 The fastest processors in current smart phones and PCs are about 1=20 GHz and slightly more than 3 GHz, respectively. A factor of 100 and=20 1000 faster would require that the codec complexity be less than=20 about 10 MHz and 3 MHz, respectively. Most contemporary codecs today=20 have higher complexity than that. =20 [Christian Hoene] Then take the value 10 and 100. It still does not = matter. Even if the codec complexity were=20 lower than these numbers, to achieve a delay reduction factor of 100=20 and 1000, the encoding and decoding operations would each have to be=20 the only real-time task or the highest-priority task so the processor=20 will get to it right away without any delay. This is not the case in=20 general, since having a full-duplex channel will requires at least a=20 real-time encoding task and a real-time decoding task running at the=20 same time. Both cannot be the only real-time task or the highest- priority real-time task at the same time; furthermore, there are=20 almost always some other real-time tasks in the system. As I=20 discussed in length in my previous email about Real-Time Scheduling=20 (RTS) delay, most audio/video communication systems have many=20 real-time tasks running at the same time; substantial delay needs=20 to be added to ensure that none of such real-time tasks will run out=20 of real time. This often leads to an RTS delay of one frame. [Christian Hoene] Let me cite from TI specs of the TNETV3020 carrier = grade voice gateway: "Processing delay in the Telogy Software solution = is minimized by a staggered processing schedule". TI engineers do not = have the same technical problems as Broadcom engineers. This paper (or = any other) on the topic of staggered scheduling might be helpful = http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=3D10.1.1.143.7213&rep=3D= rep1&type=3Dpdf=20 Best Regards, Raymond -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Christian Hoene Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:09 AM To: 'Cullen Jennings' Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] Suggested summary... Hello, taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > 1) low delay mode The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic = delay of 8ms or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. = This is require to support ensemble performances over the Internet and = other highly interactive conversational tasks. > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while = requiring less computational resources than a AMR-WB codec=20 (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different system = components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states that = the processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as = large as the frame duration. However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources will = be available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much = faster than one frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor = faster of 100 (smart phones) to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full = load is a rare case. Any suggestion to improve it? With best regards, Christian=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ -----Original Message----- From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > So, we have consensus on=20 > 1) low delay mode > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different = platforms >From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize or = call consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If = you think a key piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and = that it needs to captured in the archive, can you summarize what you = think it is folks agree with and then the chairs can make some sort of = consensus call. Thanks, Cullen =3D _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Sun Jul 4 07:16:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B243A65A6 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.870, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vypzbPlj9DHX for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (mx05.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7813A67E3 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 ([178.2.212.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o64EGCY4006983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 16:16:22 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 16:16:13 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <002d01cb1b83$7b2d8e80$7188ab80$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB1B94.3EB65E80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acsbg3D/MWip/csdSDytwL4mATaJiQ== Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus-Spam-Check: clean (checked by Avira MailGate: version: 3.0.0-4; spam filter version: 3.0.0/2.0; host: mx05) X-AntiVirus: checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; AVE: 8.2.4.2; VDF: 7.10.8.247; host: mx05); id=8638-nbvDUd Subject: [codec] List of reference platforms X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:16:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB1B94.3EB65E80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002F_01CB1B94.3EB65E80" ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01CB1B94.3EB65E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, =20 I tried to set up a list of reference platforms, which we (the list) may = consider as important. This is just a first suggestion. Please feel free = to correct anything. =20 With best regards, =20 Christian Hoene =20 =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01CB1B94.3EB65E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

I tried to set up a list of = reference platforms, which we (the list) may consider as important. This is just a first = suggestion. Please feel free to correct anything.

=C2=A0

With best = regards,

 

=C2=A0Christian = Hoene

 

 

 

-------------------------= --------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen =

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 =

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

 

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB1B94.3EB65E80-- From roman@telurix.com Mon Jul 5 03:04:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09E63A686C for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVRtUqigzlD3 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839843A685A for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3so739150gxk.31 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 03:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.142.20 with SMTP id p20mr3309756and.72.1278324239174; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 03:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o7sm36449589and.13.2010.07.05.03.03.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 05 Jul 2010 03:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3so2684735gyh.31 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 03:03:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.51.9 with SMTP id y9mr1548225agy.62.1278324233234; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 03:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.140.18 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:03:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <002d01cb1b83$7b2d8e80$7188ab80$@de> References: <002d01cb1b83$7b2d8e80$7188ab80$@de> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 06:03:53 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Christian Hoene Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630f3add46bb4048aa10dac Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] List of reference platforms X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 10:04:06 -0000 --00163630f3add46bb4048aa10dac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We should add Intel server based IVR and Conference server. It will run two quad or six core Xeon 54XX or 55XX, will have 12 GB of RAM, two 1GB NIC, HD= , and Linux OS. It should handle (depending on the conference mode, codecs used, and ability to use pre-encoded audio) from 400 to 10,000 concurrent calls. You can put Voxeo, Radysis, and Telurix as experts in this platform. _____________ Roman Shpount 2010/7/4 Christian Hoene > Hello, > > > > I tried to set up a list of reference platforms, which we (the list) may > consider as important. This is just a first suggestion. Please feel free = to > correct anything. > > > > With best regards, > > > > Christian Hoene > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > --00163630f3add46bb4048aa10dac Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We should add Intel server based IVR and Conference server. It will run two= quad or six core Xeon 54XX or 55XX, will have 12 GB of RAM, two 1GB NIC, H= D, and Linux OS. It should handle (depending on the conference mode, codecs= used, and ability to use pre-encoded audio) from 400 to 10,000 concurrent = calls. You can put Voxeo, Radysis, and Telurix as experts in this platform.=
_____________
Roman Shpount


2010/7/4 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de= >

Hello,

=A0

I tried to set up a list of ref= erence platforms, which we (the list) may consider as important. This is just a first suggest= ion. Please feel free to correct anything.

=A0

With best regards,

=A0

=A0Christian Hoene

=A0

=A0

=A0

----------------------------------------------------------= -----

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=

=A0


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


--00163630f3add46bb4048aa10dac-- From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jul 5 03:12:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319873A6814 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.278, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TGBKY9ZbTYie for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (mx05.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B363A67C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 03:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoeneT60 (eap111033.extern.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.111.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o65ACaiU000857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:12:36 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Roman Shpount'" References: <002d01cb1b83$7b2d8e80$7188ab80$@de> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:12:37 +0200 Organization: =?utf-8?Q?Universit=C3=A4t_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <002001cb1c2a$98892500$c99b6f00$@de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01CB1C3B.5C11F500" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: AcscKWjwsphI3IfQS/+4j4c+YcGODwAASMjQ Content-Language: de X-AntiVirus-Spam-Check: clean (checked by Avira MailGate: version: 3.0.0-4; spam filter version: 3.0.0/2.0; host: mx05) X-AntiVirus: checked by Avira MailGate (version: 3.0.0-4; AVE: 8.2.4.2; VDF: 7.10.8.249; host: mx05); id=11697-MJVfDg Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] List of reference platforms X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 10:12:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CB1C3B.5C11F500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0022_01CB1C3B.5C121C10" ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01CB1C3B.5C121C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Done =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:04 PM To: Christian Hoene Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] List of reference platforms =20 We should add Intel server based IVR and Conference server. It will run = two quad or six core Xeon 54XX or 55XX, will have 12 GB of RAM, two 1GB = NIC, HD, and Linux OS. It should handle (depending on the conference = mode, codecs used, and ability to use pre-encoded audio) from 400 to = 10,000 concurrent calls. You can put Voxeo, Radysis, and Telurix as = experts in this platform. _____________ Roman Shpount 2010/7/4 Christian Hoene Hello, =20 I tried to set up a list of reference platforms, which we (the list) may = consider as important. This is just a first suggestion. Please feel free = to correct anything. =20 With best regards, =20 Christian Hoene =20 =20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20 Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20 http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ =20 _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01CB1C3B.5C121C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Done=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

----------------------------------------------------------= -----

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of = T=C3=BCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 = 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de= /

 

From:= Roman = Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:04 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] List of reference = platforms

 

We should add Intel = server based IVR and Conference server. It will run two quad or six core Xeon = 54XX or 55XX, will have 12 GB of RAM, two 1GB NIC, HD, and Linux OS. It should = handle (depending on the conference mode, codecs used, and ability to use = pre-encoded audio) from 400 to 10,000 concurrent calls. You can put Voxeo, Radysis, = and Telurix as experts in this platform.
_____________
Roman Shpount

2010/7/4 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

Hello,<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I tried to set up a list of reference platforms, which we = (the list) may consider as important. This is just a first suggestion. Please feel = free to correct anything.

 

With best regards,

 

 Christian Hoene

 

 

 

-------------------------= --------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. = Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen =

Sand 13, = 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/<= /p>

 


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

 

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP////////// /////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAA////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CB1C3B.5C11F500-- From herve.taddei@huawei.com Mon Jul 5 08:45:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E543A6995 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJMKRXChEZoK for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrga04-in.huawei.com (lhrga04-in.huawei.com [195.33.106.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A257E3A693D for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lhrga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L5300DWBD3KVP@lhrga04-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:45:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from h00900001 ([10.200.70.162]) by lhrga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L5300H1KD3GTG@lhrga04-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:45:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:45:15 +0200 From: Herve Taddei In-reply-to: <000301cb19ff$c9c11420$5d433c60$@de> To: 'Christian Hoene' , 'Michael Knappe' , 'stephen botzko' Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcsZ169OESl0TknWTyqm+YdH4xfW5wAA8IhwAAKPU6YAAKBJEAAFhyPwAJLn5oA= References: <6A21D03881734E0AB69220FD6B6CCDCB@china.huawei.com> <33D8F96E0D56484C8E41BE982E4D1990@china.huawei.com> <000301cb19ff$c9c11420$5d433c60$@de> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:45:24 -0000 Hi Christian, The wording is fine if everybody agrees that AMR-WB should be the = reference complexity for an internet codec. Why is AMR-WB the anchor? What is then = the complexity of the so called low computational mode? Is it half, one = third, 10% of it? I don't see the wording low complexity anymore. This = complexity would be the one of the full codec at all bitrates/bandwidth, correct? I = am also fine with adding lower complexity values for lower sampling = frequency (e.g. 8-16 kHz) as proposed by Raymond as well as taking care of the = memory footprint.=20 In some sense, the way proposed by Stephen is fine, "work forward from = use cases and problem statements" to figure out the requirements. In that = case, it would be needed to define where and how this codec is going to be = used. Shouldn't it be in the draft documents you were working on? Best regards Herve=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Hoene [mailto:hoene@uni-tuebingen.de] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 6:01 PM > To: 'Herve Taddei'; 'Michael Knappe'; 'stephen botzko' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Hello Herve, >=20 > If I understand you correctly, you are not suggesting G.722.1 as reference. You just > say that AMR-WB is not known as low-complexity. >=20 > So, a better wording would say >=20 > "The IWAC codec MUST be able to operate at a mode that requires less > computational resources than the AMR-WB codec at 12.65 kbit/s. > Thus, the complexity of the IWAC codec MUST be less than 38 WMOPS if > measured with the ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP library." >=20 > Fine? >=20 > Christian >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Herve Taddei [mailto:herve.taddei@huawei.com] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:17 PM > To: 'Michael Knappe'; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] Suggested summary... >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > Actually if you ask me to name a low complexity codec (by the way at = which > bandwidth?) I don't think I would name AMR-WB. G.722.1 is a good = example of > a low complexity codec for WB services. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Herve >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Knappe [mailto:mknappe@juniper.net] > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM > > To: Herve Taddei; 'stephen botzko'; 'Christian Hoene' > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > On codec complexity benchmarking, there is certainly industry = precedence > for > > using an existing codec as a rough relative complexity guide (G.729A comes > to > > mind for narrowband codec comparisons), but some form of generalized fixed > point > > / floating point instruction count rating would hopefully be less > algorithm specific. > > Herve, Stephen, any suggestion(s) for codec complexity ratings? > > > > Mike > > > > > > On 7/2/10 5:18 AM, "Herve Taddei" wrote: > > > > I think I have the same opinion as Stephen, this does not really represent > a > > consensus as it never came on the table. This is exactly what I was asking > in my > > email by end of May when you wrote there was consensus, what is the > consensus? > > > > The 5 1/3 ms is quite precise, why this value? The AMR-WB codec complexity > as > > reference, for which reason? > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Herve Taddei > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of > > stephen botzko > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:14 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... > > > > Maybe I somehow missed it, but i do not see any discussions on the = list > that > > support your consensus claim. While perhaps they are reasonable > suggestions > > that we can discuss further, for me consensus means that the = specifics > were > > expressly discussed and generally agreed. > > > > There seem to be details here that I do not find on the list. For > instance, a general > > support for a complexity ceiling of AMR-WB, and a 5 1/3 ceiling on > low-delay frame > > size. > > > > Regards > > Stephen Botzko > > > > > > 2010/7/2 Christian Hoene > > Hello, > > > > taking Cullen advise, I would like to suggest the following summary. > > > > > 1) low delay mode > > > > The codec shall be able to operated at a mode having an algorithmic delay > of 8ms > > or less while having a frame duration of 5 1/3 ms or less. This is require > to support > > ensemble performances over the Internet and other highly interactive > > conversational tasks. > > > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > > The codec shall be able to operate at a low complexity mode while > requiring less > > computational resources than a AMR-WB codec > > (< 38 WMOPS if measured with ITU-T STL2005 BaseOP (ITU-T G.192)). > > > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > Standard ITU-T G.114 (05/00 and 05/03) describes how different = system > > components contribute to the one-way transmission delay. It states = that > the > > processing time of the codec contributes with an additional delay as large > as the > > frame duration. > > > > However, it is common consensus that plenty computational resources = will > be > > available most of the time. Then, the codec processing will be much faster > than one > > frame duration. Typical values are range from a factor faster of 100 > (smart phones) > > to 1000 (PCs). A device working at full load is a rare case. > > > > Any suggestion to improve it? > > > > With best regards, > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen > > Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:21 PM > > To: Christian Hoene > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > > > > On May 27, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Christian Hoene wrote: > > > > > So, we have consensus on > > > 1) low delay mode > > > 2) low complexity mode (whatever this means) > > > 3) technical understanding on how latency sums up on different platforms > > > > From a Chair point of view, I don't think the Chairs could summarize = or > call > > consensus on these three - however, I'm not sure that matters. If = you > think a key > > piece of consensus has come out of this conversation and that it = needs to > captured > > in the archive, can you summarize what you think it is folks agree = with > and then the > > chairs can make some sort of consensus call. > > > > Thanks, Cullen > > =3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > codec mailing list > > codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > >=20 >=20 From fluffy@cisco.com Mon Jul 5 09:03:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204383A6956 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5kojWjP8Z+03 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008E13A68ED for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAE+fMUyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACfdHGkQJoaglUBgk8EiDo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.53,540,1272844800"; d="scan'208";a="154004147" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Jul 2010 16:03:11 +0000 Received: from [10.21.70.68] ([10.21.70.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o65G36fv009393; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:03:08 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:03:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3325E388-619C-4B04-BA81-E079427D3087@cisco.com> References: To: Stephan Wenger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Thanks to Christian Hoene, and consensus calls X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:03:11 -0000 So if anyone in the group thinks there is a specific questions where we = are likely to have consensus and will help the WG meet it goals, drop an = email to the chairs and the chairs can make a consensus call on it, = raise it a a questions to the list explicitly asking for a input to a = consensus call, or explain why we don't think the time is quite right = for that consensus call. Chairs often get theses emails from authors of = WG drafts, or someone like Christian is carefully tracking what is going = on in the WG, but it's fine for anyone to send the chairs an email. Typically, the most important types on consensus calls are technical = topics where the WG did not used to agree but conversation on the list = has changed people opinions or refined the proposed middle ground to the = point there is a proposal that most people are OK with. =20 On Jul 2, 2010, at 13:54 , Stephan Wenger wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > I think I speak for many of us here when thanking Christian for his = efforts in organizing our discussion of requirements, maintaining the = tracker, and the logistical support he is providing in facilitating our = requirements discussion. He quite obviously has taken a tremendous = amount of workload away from the chairs, which is, generally speaking, a = desirable think in the IETF. >=20 > We have, I think, lost some momentum over the past few months, and I = think that may be at least in party due to what I perceive as a certain = passiveness of the chairs. My perception is based on mailing list = traffic alone; I have no insight in what may be going on behind the = scenes, and I may be entirely wrong with my perception. >=20 > It=92s clear that in the IETF context the chairs ultimately call for, = and (more importantly) declare consensus. However, I also think it is = within Christians rights as one of the most active participants here to = push towards consensus forming when he sees fit. =20 >=20 > My suggestion to anyone who wishes to improve the (glacial?) speed we = had over the last couple of weeks (or is it months, by now?) would be to = formulate and propose a consensus call=97without making the suggestion = that this call has been actually made, or that consensus has been = reached. If the chairs do not jump on such an opportunity, I think it = is again absolutely in every participants right to push the chairs = towards making the call or declare consensus, as the case may be. Of = course, one possible answer by the chairs would be an explanation why = they see that it would be inadvisable to make that call at this point in = time. After all, they have not only the authority, but also the IETF = experience in dealing with this stuff; otherwise, they wouldn=92t be = chairs. Whether that pushing is done in private conversation with the = chairs or on the public list is, I believe, that person=92s choice=97in = other WGs, I have personally used both options depending on the = situation. >=20 > In other words, I think there is nothing wrong with a bit of pushiness = in the current state of affairs, and I would like to thank Christian for = being pushy. >=20 > Regards, > Stephan Cullen Jennings For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Mon Jul 5 16:16:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1C63A6918 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xxdf8JsxgVU4 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709053A67B5 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [142.138.24.19] ([142.138.24.19]) by MAILEXCH.octasic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:16:07 -0400 Message-ID: <4C3267B7.5010406@octasic.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 19:16:07 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "codec@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jul 2010 23:16:07.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C0D8350:01CB1C98] Subject: [codec] Codec prototype X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:16:13 -0000 Hi guys, We have just completed a very early prototype hybrid codec that combined SILK and CELT to encode 48 kHz speech. We have submitted an I-D that describes the resulting codec: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-valin-codec-prototype-00.txt . This is still very incomplete, but we preferred to submit early so that people can have a look at what we've been doing. This first version has no flexibility (except for the bit-rate), but that should get better. Same with the quality -- there's been no tuning yet. The code is available with a git repository at git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git . It also depends on the CELT repository (git://git.xiph.org/celt.git) and an "unofficial" SILK repository (git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git). See the README file for basic instruction on building the code. The current build system is highly non-user-friendly, so please bear with us. There is a complete tarball of the current version (for those who don't have git) at: http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ along with samples at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/samples-20100705/ . Unlike previous samples, these are *not* simulations and are produced without any cheating by the hybrid codec prototype. The rates are 32, 40 and 48 kb/s CBR. Enjoy, Jean-Marc and Koen From mknappe@juniper.net Mon Jul 5 16:22:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C8F3A6782 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:22:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWvwn112tlQ4 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og110.obsmtp.com (exprod7og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.173]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5272D3A67B5 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob110.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTDJpJHPh0CJhI5bTPQKfkBFyuGwIef6n@postini.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2010 16:22:17 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:18:44 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" , "codec@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:18:43 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Codec prototype Thread-Index: AcscmB3iLxwqonGVS42OWUNUM5lBtgAAEl5g Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B2D7@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [codec] Codec prototype X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:22:22 -0000 Fantastic! Thanks guys!=20 Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org To: codec@ietf.org Sent: Mon Jul 05 19:16:07 2010=0A= Subject: [codec] Codec prototype Hi guys, We have just completed a very early prototype hybrid codec that combined=20 SILK and CELT to encode 48 kHz speech. We have submitted an I-D that=20 describes the resulting codec:=20 http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-valin-codec-prototype-00.txt . This is still=20 very incomplete, but we preferred to submit early so that people can have a= =20 look at what we've been doing. This first version has no flexibility=20 (except for the bit-rate), but that should get better. Same with the=20 quality -- there's been no tuning yet. The code is available with a git repository at=20 git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git . It also depends on the CELT=20 repository (git://git.xiph.org/celt.git) and an "unofficial" SILK=20 repository (git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git). See the README file for= =20 basic instruction on building the code. The current build system is highly= =20 non-user-friendly, so please bear with us. There is a complete tarball of the current version (for those who don't=20 have git) at: http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ along with samples at=20 http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/samples-20100705/ . Unlike previous=20 samples, these are *not* simulations and are produced without any cheating= =20 by the hybrid codec prototype. The rates are 32, 40 and 48 kb/s CBR. Enjoy, Jean-Marc and Koen _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From mknappe@juniper.net Tue Jul 6 08:00:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4003A696D for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:00:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X-z0rrf-5591 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og120.obsmtp.com (exprod7og120.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47AC3A6902 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob120.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTDNFEVTqADMYmDynzKAGXrWrwIqDo02s@postini.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 08:00:38 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 07:57:10 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 07:57:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht Thread-Index: AcsdG4HZut7dkXSRmE2LpImYEKyFjA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 15:00:37 -0000 Hi everyone! Just as we did in Anaheim, I would like to invite everyone as = an informal activity to join me after the official IETF Sunday welcome rece= ption at a nearby restaurant for dinner and drinks. Email back if you=92re = interested so I can tally a rough number for reservations. Suggestions for = the restaurant are welcome, and I=92ll send out logistics for meeting up af= ter the IETF welcome reception once the restaurant is decided. It=92s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG participan= ts in an informal setting, hope to see you there! Cheers, Mike From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca Tue Jul 6 19:18:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0214B3A6359 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aCguK0pn-CHz for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5394D3A694D for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:18:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([70.81.109.112]) by VL-MO-MR006.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0L56002BV12LTRF0@VL-MO-MR006.ip.videotron.ca> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <4C33E3E2.10806@usherbrooke.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:18:10 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100423 Thunderbird/3.0.4 To: Jean-Marc Valin References: <4C3267B7.5010406@octasic.com> In-reply-to: <4C3267B7.5010406@octasic.com> Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Codec prototype X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 02:18:33 -0000 Hi, It turns out that the code we sent yesterday had a pretty nasty bug that affected quality. I updated the snapshot and audio samples at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ . As you can see, there's now samples down to 24 kb/s. Of course, this is still early work and we should be able to further improve quality. Cheers, Jean-Marc On 10-07-05 07:16 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > Hi guys, > > We have just completed a very early prototype hybrid codec that combined > SILK and CELT to encode 48 kHz speech. We have submitted an I-D that > describes the resulting codec: > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-valin-codec-prototype-00.txt . This is > still very incomplete, but we preferred to submit early so that people > can have a look at what we've been doing. This first version has no > flexibility (except for the bit-rate), but that should get better. Same > with the quality -- there's been no tuning yet. > > The code is available with a git repository at > git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git . It also depends on the CELT > repository (git://git.xiph.org/celt.git) and an "unofficial" SILK > repository (git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git). See the README file > for basic instruction on building the code. The current build system is > highly non-user-friendly, so please bear with us. > > There is a complete tarball of the current version (for those who don't > have git) at: http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ along with samples > at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/samples-20100705/ . Unlike > previous samples, these are *not* simulations and are produced without > any cheating by the hybrid codec prototype. The rates are 32, 40 and 48 > kb/s CBR. > > Enjoy, > > Jean-Marc and Koen > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > From jonas.svedberg@ericsson.com Wed Jul 7 05:38:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EF23A680D for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 05:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HcxpIcKk2zS5 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 05:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D73F3A67EB for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 05:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bc4ae000006582-58-4c347529c53c Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3E.D4.25986.925743C4; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:38:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.2.89]) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.115.90]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:37:54 +0200 From: Jonas Svedberg To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:37:54 +0200 Thread-Topic: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 Thread-Index: AcsaPTaBkjsYpoIxsEGpcLzhPbCBHgDkqa3w Message-ID: <70605C7F7303F24DA29681D7F6AB95280246A76DDD@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:38:00 -0000 =20 Hi all Regarding the agenda for IETF 78 it would be really nice if there was some meeting time allocated=20 to summarize and discuss the Codec WG progress in relation to the goals and milestones defined in the group charter. This could even be a permanent point after the Administrivia. //BR jonas -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of M= ichael Knappe Sent: den 3 juli 2010 01:21 To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 Meeting to be held Monday, July 26th, 2010 from 13:00-15:00 in Auditorium 2= . Here is the draft agenda for the meeting, comments and suggestions welcome: 1. Administrivia (10 min) 2. Codec development and collaboration progress to date (individual short presentations) (30 min) 3. Technical requirements update (review and closure of open action items) = (30 min) 4. Codec testing methodology background and test house / workflow = proposal (40 min incl open mic discussion) 5. Summary / action items (10 mi= n) Cheers, Mike _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From mknappe@juniper.net Wed Jul 7 10:11:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1893A67EA for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:11:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27iP6BwizDHI for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og105.obsmtp.com (exprod7og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F773A63EC for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob105.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTDS1JXj6Au224EPZHdUkel/UEj5bbg6P@postini.com; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:11:12 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::fc92:eb1:759:2c72%11]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:39:22 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: Jonas Svedberg , "codec@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:39:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 Thread-Index: AcsaPTaBkjsYpoIxsEGpcLzhPbCBHgDkqa3wAAjFNH8= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <70605C7F7303F24DA29681D7F6AB95280246A76DDD@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:11:11 -0000 Agreed. Definitely makes sense to put an overall wg status update just preceding the more detailed codec development progress update. Cullen has suggested we make that update at the end of the administrivia section, whic= h makes sense to me as a lead in to the rest of the discussion. Mike On 7/7/10 5:37 AM, "Jonas Svedberg" wrote: > =20 > Hi all >=20 > Regarding the agenda for IETF 78 > it would be really nice if there was some meeting time allocated > to summarize and discuss the Codec WG progress in relation to the > goals and milestones defined in the group charter. >=20 > This could even be a permanent point after the Administrivia. >=20 >=20 > //BR jonas >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Michael Knappe > Sent: den 3 juli 2010 01:21 > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda for Maastricht IETF 78 >=20 > Meeting to be held Monday, July 26th, 2010 from 13:00-15:00 in Auditorium= 2. >=20 > Here is the draft agenda for the meeting, comments and suggestions welcom= e: >=20 > 1. Administrivia (10 min) > 2. Codec development and collaboration progress to date (individual short > presentations) (30 min) > 3. Technical requirements update (review and closure of open action items= ) (30 > min) 4. Codec testing methodology background and test house / workflow > proposal (40 min incl open mic discussion) 5. Summary / action items (10 = min) >=20 >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Mike > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca Thu Jul 8 19:14:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0706B3A6B38 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.930, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwRQ3hVrxOVd for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16223A6816 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:14:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([70.81.109.112]) by VL-MH-MR003.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0L5900FV1Q7UVD10@VL-MH-MR003.ip.videotron.ca> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <4C3685E7.9030806@usherbrooke.ca> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:13:59 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100423 Thunderbird/3.0.4 To: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: [codec] Updated codec drafts X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 02:14:29 -0000 Hi, We have updated the codec prototype draft and source code. The latest version is at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-valin-codec-prototype-01 with the source code still at the same place. The git repository is git://git.xiph.org/users/jm/silk.git and the snapshots at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ . There is now an autotools build system which should make it easier to build, at least on unix platforms. Windows project files should follow. The CELT draft -- which is referenced by the prototype draft -- has also been updated: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-valin-celt-codec-02 Cheers, Jean-Marc and Koen From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 9 08:57:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDC83A6A91 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:57:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.975, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RoczZQObkRwa for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og102.obsmtp.com (exprod7og102.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.157]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6C93A6A87 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob102.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTDdG3+3oMGcM7GAmaZ345Rg3SEbOQezC@postini.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:57:20 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::fc92:eb1:759:2c72%11]) with mapi; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:34:23 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:34:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] discussion topics pt 1 Thread-Index: AcsffDJFef6vqZ+I/kyOr17i13ibUQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] discussion topics pt 1 X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:57:16 -0000 Everyone, Below is a discussion topic list that I sent out in April, along with my co= mmentary and discussion summary from April where available included inline.= Let=92s take another round at reviewing these before Maastricht. 1. sample rates: which sample rate(s) will the proposed codec support? If m= ore than one, will one of the sample rates be a MUST handled by all impleme= ntations, with the others optional dependent on the capabilities of the end= point? Will each sample rate variation of the codec be treated as a unique = codec as far as SDP negotiation is concerned? [MEK] discussion on this indicated that even multiples of 8 kHz (16, 24, 32= , 48) sampling were desired 2. joint stereo/channel coding: will joint channel coding be supported, per= haps optionally 3. multi-channel frame ordering: what channel naming and ordering scheme wi= ll we support or specify for packing variations of multiple channels in eac= h frame? 4. packet loss concealment: will PLC be a mandatory component of the codec?= Will the codec provide an implementation of PLC, but with the hooks to all= ow different and potentially improved (or network condition specific) imple= mentations of PLC to be substituted in the codec? 5. bit-exact vs. bit-compatible: will all variations of the codec allow bit= -compatible implementation, or will we specify a bit-exact variation of the= codec (e.g. Specifying a bit-exact fixed point implementation of the lowes= t sample rate variation of the codec)? [MEK] no general consensus here yet, with arguments for both (bit-exact all= ows test vector qualification of an implementation, while bit-compatible al= lows easier cross-platform porting and algorithmic updates/extensions) 6. reference use-cases and topologies: let=92s start putting together a doc= of use-cases and topologies that we expect the proposed codec to operate i= n. This will be useful for both determining implementation characteristics = of the codec as well as its test regimen. Any takers for kicking this off? [MEK] IMO, this is a very important text for us to put together 7. quality assessment / qualification process: we need to begin putting tog= ether a doc that details how we will assess the proposed codec, anyone inte= rested in working on this? [MEK] Christian and I are currently working on this, with a presentation se= t for Maastricht Cheers, Mike From mknappe@juniper.net Fri Jul 9 09:15:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8133A6A1B for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.687, BAYES_40=-0.185, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bZbMdPXQLu4Q for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og106.obsmtp.com (exprod7og106.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204863A67CF for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob106.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTDdLQtA/FOu1j619yBHLyhsAG8WsLJbK@postini.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:16:02 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:11:15 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:11:13 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] discussion topics pt 2 Thread-Index: AcsfgVnqcVsJ8Wz/LE2o3Q3hvsZXSQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] discussion topics pt 2 X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 16:15:58 -0000 Everyone, Below is a raw list of open tracker item titles, taken from http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/trac/report/1 Please take some time and review each entry on the tracker to get a context= ual view of where current discussion is on various topics. Some tracker ite= ms should be closed as either an obvious non-requirement or out of scope to= the charter, and some need further clarification and discussion before any= consensus can be derived =96 we=92ll do some cleanup once everyone has had= a few days to review where we are. Cheers, Mike 2. Please identify Requirements non-ambiguous and give them priorities 3. Conferencing: Support of binaural audio? 4. Remove the word "wideband" from the WG title. [MEK] It appears consensus= was leaning towards =91Internet Interactive Audio Codec=92 in place of the= current =91Internet Wideband Audio Codec=92 7. Providing DTMF Testing Tools and Samples 8. Sample rates? 9. Joint stereo/channel coding? 10. Multi-channel frame ordering? 12. bit-exact vs. bit-compatible? 13. reference use-cases and topologies 14. VAD and CNG? 15. Efficiently combine pre-encoded audio 17. Feedback and control loop? [MEK] this was a rate control discussion 18. Frame Sizes? 19. How large is the frame size depended delay / the serialization delay / = frame size depended processing delay? 20. Computational complexity? 21. Supporting Wireless Links? [MEK] a non-requirement? 22. Memory Usage? 23. Impact of packet headers and header compression 24. Negotiation of codec parameters? 25. Supported audio contents [MEK] this is a discussion of how general purp= ose the codec should be in terms of supporting voice, music, etc. We may wa= nt to further refine this question to be: will ALL variants / sample rates = of the codec support general audio content, or will it be ok for some varia= nts to be content-optimized? 26. Comparing the CODEC to other codecs... 27. Testing Impact of IP on Codec Performance 28. Layered bit-stream 29. Packet loss concealment? 30. Self-awareness [MEK] this is a quality-feedback loop discussion, simila= r to item 17. 31. Requirements of high-density VoIP gateways (and low cost VoIP phone)? 32. Playout/Dejittering Buffer 34. Speech Quality Aspects in emergency calls From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 9 18:39:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D393A6949 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o5MdIq6-NW4g for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MMS3.broadcom.com (mms3.broadcom.com [216.31.210.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BB93A68D9 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.131] by MMS3.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:39:35 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: B55A25B1-5D7D-41F8-BC53-C57E7AD3C201 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.131]) with mapi; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:39:35 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Christian Hoene" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:39:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Suggested summary... Thread-Index: AcsRZil0HQ7IYcfiQc6J3HE4d/X1hQIVooqAACKzfyAATIw04AEJJkJw Message-ID: References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <3E1D8AD1-B28F-41C5-81C6-478A15432224@csperkins.org> <000001cae173$dba012f0$92e038d0$@de> <001101cae177$e8aa6780$b9ff3680$@de> <002d01cae188$a330b2c0$e9921840$@de> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <"CB68DF4! ! ! ! ! CFBEF49428 8C74 B9 043D 30 B"@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <909E12B9-984F-4051-A93E-2291EFE0A40E@cisco.com> <20100526151326.2882694zuaeslk3q@mail.skype.net> <20100526214255.206532jzf8wjld1r@mail.skype.net> <002901cafd89$acf402e0$06dc08a0$@de> <19367DD02EBD40829869907AEA0CE128@china.huawei.com> <000601cafd9b$148fd850$3daf88f0$@de> <568A92CB079CCF43BA5C8D7B08BCB4AE817DCBA900@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <002501cafdb4$09394810$1babd830$@de> <56E363F9-AB88-43A3-8ECC-99A7E9796330@cisco.com> <001901cb19ce$a074d600$e15e8200$@de> <002901cb1b7d$94cb3b40$be61b1c0$@de> In-Reply-To: <002901cb1b7d$94cb3b40$be61b1c0$@de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 602910DD3KC33074012-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Suggested summary... 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a3MsIEN1bGxlbiA8d2l0aCBteSBjaGFpciBoYXQgb24+DQogPQ0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KY29kZWMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpjb2Rl Y0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9jb2RlYw0K DQoNCg== From mknappe@juniper.net Thu Jul 15 08:47:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B373A6B55 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.755 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.755 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.756, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCCiKdOFgRgU for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og108.obsmtp.com (exprod7og108.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.169]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6189E3A6AC3 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob108.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTD8tq7qGIQrWkK6Dwb2/WSQziwjLqr1u@postini.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:47:56 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::fc92:eb1:759:2c72%11]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:43:40 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:43:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Reminder: Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht Thread-Index: AcskNH3wztOzHLpAikKCAOaDDxkZAg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] Reminder: Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:47:48 -0000 Just a note to please let me know if you can attend if you haven=92t alread= y, thanks! What does everyone think of either of the Spanish restaurant sug= gestions of La Bodega or Mestizo, both roughly in the same location approx = 2.5 miles from the MECC. La Bodega =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.labodega-maastricht.nl/ http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843165&lon=3D5.702245&zoom=3D16&q1= =3Dforum%20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%2C%20nl&q2=3Dplatielstraat%209%20%C= 2%B7%206211%20gv%20maastricht%2C%20nl Mestizo =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.mestizo.nl/ http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843992&lon=3D5.70223&zoom=3D16&q1= =3DForum%20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%20nl&q2=3DBredestraat%2018%20maastr= icht%20nl Mike Hi everyone! Just as we did in Anaheim, I would like to invite everyone as = an informal activity to join me after the official IETF Sunday welcome rece= ption at a nearby restaurant for dinner and drinks. Email back if you=92re = interested so I can tally a rough number for reservations. Suggestions for = the restaurant are welcome, and I=92ll send out logistics for meeting up af= ter the IETF welcome reception once the restaurant is decided. It=92s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG participan= ts in an informal setting, hope to see you there! Cheers, Mike From erik.norvell@ericsson.com Fri Jul 16 01:38:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8073A68D3 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bWI739BRTHXL for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675973A68C5 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7b91ae000001aef-16-4c401a81442a Received: from esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D5.98.06895.18A104C4; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:38:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSCMS0351.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.2.83]) by esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se ([10.2.3.125]) with mapi; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:38:24 +0200 From: Erik Norvell To: Michael Knappe , "codec@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:38:23 +0200 Thread-Topic: [codec] Reminder: Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht Thread-Index: AcskNH3wztOzHLpAikKCAOaDDxkZAgAjX/WA Message-ID: <027A93CE4A670242BD91A44E37105AEF0CA9681A88@ESESSCMS0351.eemea.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [codec] Reminder: Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:38:16 -0000 Hi Mike, Both places look really nice. I'm a fan of tapas which they serve at La Bod= ega, but I would not mind the latino food at Mestizo either :) /Erik -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of M= ichael Knappe Sent: den 15 juli 2010 17:44 To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] Reminder: Sunday codec WG dinner and drinks in Maastricht Just a note to please let me know if you can attend if you haven't already,= thanks! What does everyone think of either of the Spanish restaurant sugge= stions of La Bodega or Mestizo, both roughly in the same location approx 2.= 5 miles from the MECC. La Bodega =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.labodega-maastricht.nl/ http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843165&lon=3D5.702245&zoom=3D16&q1= =3Dforum%20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%2C%20nl&q2=3Dplatielstraat%209%20%C= 2%B7%206211%20gv%20maastricht%2C%20nl Mestizo =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.mestizo.nl/ http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843992&lon=3D5.70223&zoom=3D16&q1= =3DForum%20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%20nl&q2=3DBredestraat%2018%20maastr= icht%20nl Mike Hi everyone! Just as we did in Anaheim, I would like to invite everyone as = an informal activity to join me after the official IETF Sunday welcome rece= ption at a nearby restaurant for dinner and drinks. Email back if you're in= terested so I can tally a rough number for reservations. Suggestions for th= e restaurant are welcome, and I'll send out logistics for meeting up after = the IETF welcome reception once the restaurant is decided. It's a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG participants= in an informal setting, hope to see you there! Cheers, Mike _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From koen.vos@skype.net Thu Jul 22 13:27:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03BC3A6901 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkAMtyZU1aGQ for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.skype.net (mx.skype.net [78.141.177.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0D63A685F for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by mx.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434F4171E for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:27:53 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=skype.net; s=mx; t=1279830473; bh=WszQf9+gFQPUBjFfTOSG6z7aKZEPLyTly4U9ReN5/Sw=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bqCjQvQ12Fhl4Ti0LbR/CeWT AG0egbOMophbEe8Io+SeYo/BXJhSxpGQDpYk0FStM6aCSPS90ha+n3EIR7Otmyxyoi+ ndvO2JZYCczrZ5s4cOvwnwwGaufuc/uHMh7nFR+XracK5GV+QUCanOFObIOboWhZ7uq 0aZ8mFYGyi2qo= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB363507CAA for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:27:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at lu2-zimbra.skype.net Received: from zimbra.skype.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.skype.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGT5QdUF4D9U for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:27:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (lu2-zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97791672684 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:27:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:27:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Koen Vos To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <793073566.195464.1279830468615.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra.skype.net> In-Reply-To: <958981557.195453.1279830407763.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra.skype.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [69.181.40.216] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64 (ZimbraWebClient - FF3.0 (Win)/6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64) Subject: [codec] mushra test X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:27:46 -0000 Hi folks, we've created a mushra listening test that compares several codecs (CELT, SILK, CELT/SILK hybrid, BV32, G.719) at 32 kbps. The goal of the test is to find out: - how we feel about doing these to evaluate codecs - how consistent the results are. This is *not* meant as a comprehensive evaluation of these codecs. So anyone interested in participating, please download the test from http://people.xiph.org/~jm/misc_stuff/mushra.zip (sorry, only windows executable for now). Please note that the scale indicators are currently wrong (should be "bad" ... "excellent"), so just make sure to rate the reference (ie the best file) at 100. Also, the automatic emailing of results doesn't always seem to work, so if you could please email me the text file that's created afterward ("YourName_mushraResults.txt") that would be great. thanks! Koen and Jean-Marc From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Fri Jul 23 14:41:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303143A68E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:41:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.507, BAYES_40=-0.185, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5N8xpVLi9d5 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8483A680D for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [142.138.24.19] ([142.138.24.19]) by MAILEXCH.octasic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:41:57 -0400 Message-ID: <4C4A0CA4.4030609@octasic.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:41:56 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Koen Vos References: <793073566.195464.1279830468615.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra.skype.net> In-Reply-To: <793073566.195464.1279830468615.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra.skype.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2010 21:41:57.0234 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFC93520:01CB2AAF] Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] mushra test X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:41:49 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:41:49 -0000 Hi, For those who would like to test things for themselves, the exact source code that was used for the hybrid codec samples is at: http://people.xiph.org/~jm/ietfcodec/ietfcodec-20100722.tar.gz The command line is: % test_hybrid 48000 1 960 80 input.pcm output.pcm Cheers, Jean-Marc Koen Vos wrote: > Hi folks, > > we've created a mushra listening test that compares several codecs (CELT, SILK, CELT/SILK hybrid, BV32, G.719) at 32 kbps. > The goal of the test is to find out: > - how we feel about doing these to evaluate codecs > - how consistent the results are. > This is *not* meant as a comprehensive evaluation of these codecs. > > So anyone interested in participating, please download the test from http://people.xiph.org/~jm/misc_stuff/mushra.zip (sorry, only windows executable for now). > > Please note that the scale indicators are currently wrong (should be "bad" ... "excellent"), so just make sure to rate the reference (ie the best file) at 100. Also, the automatic emailing of results doesn't always seem to work, so if you could please email me the text file that's created afterward ("YourName_mushraResults.txt") that would be great. > > thanks! > Koen and Jean-Marc > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From mknappe@juniper.net Sun Jul 25 05:48:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7A43A6951 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.662, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RFKZEV0i40dX for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og122.obsmtp.com (exprod7og122.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6294D3A6855 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob122.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTEwypSDmsAXddvBjwL3WRI7fS6qJGK3i@postini.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:48:38 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:43:44 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:43:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo Thread-Index: Acsr9wKOLKDKNjK5VUeaJC79yw5miA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:48:20 -0000 Everyone, I have reservations for 15 at Mestizo tonight at 8 PM. Let=92s meet in the = MECC / IETF registration area at 7:15 PM after the welcome reception. We ca= n then decide how to get there =96 worst case, it=92s about a 25 minute wal= k to the other side of the river, but if someone has a bit of time this aft= ernoon to investigate public transportation possibilities, it would be much= appreciated. Here=92s my current RSVP list, I have room for a couple more just in case. Erik Norvell Karlheinz Wurm Julian Spittka stephen botzko Roni Even Cullen Jennings fluffy@cisco.com Jean-Marc Valin Shinnosuke Suzuki Koen Vos Michael Knappe "Alfred E. Heggestad" and Martin Hoffmann One last thing: I didn=92t find out is what credit cards they accept (and t= he Mestizo site appears to be down right now), so please bring a bit of cas= h just in case. Cheers, Mike Mestizo =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.mestizo.nl/ http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843992&lon=3D5.70223&zoom=3D16&q1= =3DForum%20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%20nl&q2=3DBredestraat%2018%20maastr= icht%20nl From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Sun Jul 25 05:55:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000E63A6956 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2LCufpu+rJC for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C713A68FC for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eyb7 with SMTP id 7so389748eyb.31 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:references :in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index:content-language; bh=/eLwmsuxJ34lrimraz7b+M833Z5IgjxQgsAugZoJ5Hg=; b=WWdV0965h6uBGwN/ajWLt3StSlBfCwQn5WXcBzqkp9fm7flJFcy4Zeo2heYxUd9f8/ l06Z8RR1rHmM/Vixx1nd+vbTeTHoQW6EmhGjVs12+RFQ4JMgTC12vfGszi9kghlqtGiX Q4hsInR1cTbzlbnJtgvWuNGoXprrFzub5J/lc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index :content-language; b=cjvgc1G50ljI2w7XR7CJmLyl7egatp0INr/C3Xi8wgVJHKpm0RWM9OLRMdTJpHKMA6 vrCsT87vB0LNfYS36kgdX+pHYrExQompQoPqmnEg9A69CUa01smp2+P/CjoQC2g7agS0 QlfPOEtH5IZKd4chDPxeDMHIP6YRZpTFRkOL4= Received: by 10.213.20.18 with SMTP id d18mr1627818ebb.95.1280062519297; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windows8d787f9 (90-145-135-73.bbserv.nl [90.145.135.73]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a48sm3848436eei.12.2010.07.25.05.55.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:55:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Michael Knappe'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 15:54:17 +0300 Message-ID: <4c4c3436.487e0e0a.171d.5fae@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acsr9wKOLKDKNjK5VUeaJC79yw5miAAAQ1MA Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:55:03 -0000 Hi, I had dinner there with Steve last night. They accepted MC and AMEX no problem. As for the transportation. It is more like 30 minutes walk and the buses across for MECC like 1 and 10 go close enough but they are not frequent on Sunday, one every half hour. Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Michael Knappe > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:44 PM > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo > > Everyone, > > I have reservations for 15 at Mestizo tonight at 8 PM. Let's meet in > the MECC / IETF registration area at 7:15 PM after the welcome > reception. We can then decide how to get there - worst case, it's about > a 25 minute walk to the other side of the river, but if someone has a > bit of time this afternoon to investigate public transportation > possibilities, it would be much appreciated. > > Here's my current RSVP list, I have room for a couple more just in > case. > > Erik Norvell > Karlheinz Wurm > Julian Spittka > stephen botzko > Roni Even > Cullen Jennings fluffy@cisco.com > Jean-Marc Valin > Shinnosuke Suzuki > Koen Vos > Michael Knappe > "Alfred E. Heggestad" and Martin Hoffmann > > One last thing: I didn't find out is what credit cards they accept (and > the Mestizo site appears to be down right now), so please bring a bit > of cash just in case. > > Cheers, > > Mike > > > Mestizo > ======= > http://www.mestizo.nl/ > > http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=50.843992&lon=5.70223&zoom=16&q1=Forum > %20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%20nl&q2=Bredestraat%2018%20maastricht%2 > 0nl > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From mknappe@juniper.net Sun Jul 25 06:05:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310903A68FC for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 06:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.712, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oprGVgno90GY for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 06:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og104.obsmtp.com (exprod7og104.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0653A6452 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 06:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob104.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTEw2k684YUNXawtSFO3EkGfUjphdNDw3@postini.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 06:05:25 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([::1]) with mapi; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:58:46 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "ron.even.tlv@gmail.com" , "codec@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 05:58:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo Thread-Index: Acsr9wKOLKDKNjK5VUeaJC79yw5miAAAQ1MAAABDMRo= Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B37E@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:05:08 -0000 Thanks Roni for the info, good news for Amex. Sounds like we'll be hoofing = it. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Roni Even To: Michael Knappe; codec@ietf.org Sent: Sun Jul 25 08:54:17 2010=0A= Subject: RE: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo Hi, I had dinner there with Steve last night. They accepted MC and AMEX no problem. As for the transportation. It is more like 30 minutes walk and the buses across for MECC like 1 and 10 go close enough but they are not frequent on Sunday, one every half hour. Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Michael Knappe > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:44 PM > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: [codec] Sunday codec WG dinner and drnks at Mestizo >=20 > Everyone, >=20 > I have reservations for 15 at Mestizo tonight at 8 PM. Let's meet in > the MECC / IETF registration area at 7:15 PM after the welcome > reception. We can then decide how to get there - worst case, it's about > a 25 minute walk to the other side of the river, but if someone has a > bit of time this afternoon to investigate public transportation > possibilities, it would be much appreciated. >=20 > Here's my current RSVP list, I have room for a couple more just in > case. >=20 > Erik Norvell > Karlheinz Wurm > Julian Spittka > stephen botzko > Roni Even > Cullen Jennings fluffy@cisco.com > Jean-Marc Valin > Shinnosuke Suzuki > Koen Vos > Michael Knappe > "Alfred E. Heggestad" and Martin Hoffmann >=20 > One last thing: I didn't find out is what credit cards they accept (and > the Mestizo site appears to be down right now), so please bring a bit > of cash just in case. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > Mestizo > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > http://www.mestizo.nl/ >=20 > http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=3Dm&lat=3D50.843992&lon=3D5.70223&zoom=3D16&q1= =3DForum > %20100%206229%20GV%20Maastricht%20nl&q2=3DBredestraat%2018%20maastricht%2 > 0nl > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Mon Jul 26 07:30:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312123A69E1 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:30:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Dpi1j5dH+mD for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD9E3A6A04 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB2CCF.2020344A" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:30:41 -0400 Message-ID: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C95@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Updated guidelines draft Thread-Index: AcsszyAghKvXFVK0SRCvROXTzFXSog== From: "Jean-Marc Valin" To: Subject: [codec] Updated guidelines draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:30:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2CCF.2020344A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the updated draft: = http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-valin-codec-guidelines-05.txt Jean-Marc ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2CCF.2020344A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Updated guidelines draft

Here's the updated draft: http:= //www.ietf.org/id/draft-valin-codec-guidelines-05.txt

   Jean-Marc

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2CCF.2020344A-- From yaakov_s@rad.com Mon Jul 26 23:56:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5F33A67A2 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.947, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECxg-R4XotWC for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antivir2.rad.co.il (antivir2.rad.co.il [62.0.23.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70833A69CA for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exrad4.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.47]) by antivir2.rad.co.il with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2010 09:56:29 +0300 Received: from exrad4.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.47]) by exrad4.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.47]) with mapi; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:56:11 +0300 From: Yaakov Stein To: "codec@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:56:11 +0300 Thread-Topic: getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcstSIUM2KGpp1rdQu66jTfqtY/FUg== Message-ID: <48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08@exrad4.ad.rad.co.il> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08exrad4adradcoil_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:56:18 -0000 --_000_48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08exrad4adradcoil_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-= quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with stro= ng IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S --_000_48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08exrad4adradcoil_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk= ,

why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discu= ssion list?

 

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet u= se

(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to= use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies),

then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.=

 

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets

or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

 

Y(J)S

 

--_000_48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08exrad4adradcoil_-- From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Tue Jul 27 01:11:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9DB3A6AAA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZENMWJBjpBXF for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80073A6ABF for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D63.5B828D59" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 04:10:20 -0400 Message-ID: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C96@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcstSIUM2KGpp1rdQu66jTfqtY/FUgAGqKzu References: <48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08@exrad4.ad.rad.co.il> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" To: "Yaakov Stein" , Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:11:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D63.5B828D59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving = the codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" = high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with = strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D63.5B828D59 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

I actually think we should be alright for this time, = since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. = We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening = test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a = "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general = Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with = strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D63.5B828D59-- From Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com Tue Jul 27 02:58:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4DE3A6A92 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5T8eCburHIV for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD053A6A9D for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L6700FU6NQPAP@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Moou ([195.70.5.235]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0L6700LMNNQMKD@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:59:09 +0200 From: Anisse Taleb In-reply-to: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C96@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> To: 'Jean-Marc Valin' , 'Yaakov Stein' , codec@ietf.org Message-id: <001301cb2d72$5d9a5c30$18cf1490$%taleb@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aRFBTUZ18gxeLQOvXG3B9w)" Content-language: sv Thread-index: AcstSIUM2KGpp1rdQu66jTfqtY/FUgAGqKzuAAPDFeA= References: <48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08@exrad4.ad.rad.co.il> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C96@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:58:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_aRFBTUZ18gxeLQOvXG3B9w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S --Boundary_(ID_aRFBTUZ18gxeLQOvXG3B9w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?

 

Kind regards,

 

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S

--Boundary_(ID_aRFBTUZ18gxeLQOvXG3B9w)-- From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Tue Jul 27 03:14:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9332D3A68E1 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c3mBwqoBFULq for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC8A3A6A44 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D74.9538BF1F" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:10:57 -0400 Message-ID: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C97@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcstSIUM2KGpp1rdQu66jTfqtY/FUgAGqKzuAAPDFeAAAHNuVA== References: <48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08@exrad4.ad.rad.co.il> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C96@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <001301cb2d72$5d9a5c30$18cf1490$%taleb@huawei.com> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" To: "Anisse Taleb" , "Yaakov Stein" , Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:14:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D74.9538BF1F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: = http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was = using VBR.=20 Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results = available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D74.9538BF1F Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www= .ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was = using VBR.

Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results = available?
And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ?



Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a = "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs = with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D74.9538BF1F-- From Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com Tue Jul 27 05:14:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06933A6ADD for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:14:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Ipr1T2RJGcj for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81A83A6A51 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L6700FJWU0CAP@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Moou ([195.70.5.235]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0L67002V7U091P@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:14:32 +0200 From: Anisse Taleb In-reply-to: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C97@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> To: 'Jean-Marc Valin' , 'Yaakov Stein' , codec@ietf.org Message-id: <003f01cb2d85$46cb9b00$d462d100$%taleb@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UWEYvgzuLxDlp8VLh6jFcA)" Content-language: sv Thread-index: AcstSIUM2KGpp1rdQu66jTfqtY/FUgAGqKzuAAPDFeAAAHNuVAAEPaKA References: <48E7911F78327A449A9FB9563766728682805B08@exrad4.ad.rad.co.il> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C96@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <001301cb2d72$5d9a5c30$18cf1490$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C97@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 12:14:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UWEYvgzuLxDlp8VLh6jFcA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? /Anisse From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S --Boundary_(ID_UWEYvgzuLxDlp8VLh6jFcA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?

 

/Anisse

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR.

Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results available?
And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?



Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S



--Boundary_(ID_UWEYvgzuLxDlp8VLh6jFcA)-- From koen.vos@skype.net Tue Jul 27 06:54:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B393A6A7A for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x8IohQ5m1fOK for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.skype.net (mx.skype.net [78.141.177.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85EC3A6995 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by mx.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D07616E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:55:07 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=skype.net; s=mx; t=1280238907; bh=gnjTGl6hrs5aMJDGzllSZPffsh1FgIztXH+S7IWETbU=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=w0yjlF1SD0R/hvcXEXQb/ISYVxuHK4B/fIUcyVM42IkUumpWkn KRBoW46K9jIjMHoz3yT2bB0gXogvvdsbWuygckPU21vrh4Cf03mqLosUt97azJkI3Hj OM5+XljuF1Wh28+pl5kQfuisZujpIJT7DKudlCacu1xcH/GxQE7ksE= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0472D3507780 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:55:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at lu2-zimbra.skype.net Received: from zimbra.skype.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.skype.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTb2jTIXGPPA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:55:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (lu2-zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A2A3507792 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:55:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:55:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Koen Vos To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <1468449062.6810.1280238901903.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> In-Reply-To: <2050359977.6671.1280238768654.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6809_1955783492.1280238901901" X-Originating-IP: [130.129.132.204] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64 (ZimbraWebClient - FF3.0 (Win)/6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64) Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:54:47 -0000 ------=_Part_6809_1955783492.1280238901901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The individual Mushra scores are available at http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/mushra_results_July_2010.zip As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) best, koen. From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? /Anisse From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [ mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com ] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec ------=_Part_6809_1955783492.1280238901901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'= >
The individual Mushra scores are av= ailable at
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/mushra_results_July_2010.zip
=
As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not me= ant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the s= ynergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.

One particular fla= w in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated in it.  Howev= er, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact on the overa= ll results.  (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "listener= 3" and "listener6".)

best,
koen.


From: "Ani= sse Taleb" <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" = <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>= ;, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM
S= ubject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?

 

/Anisse

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're= on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/p= roceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being = used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR.
Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?


Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal wa= s
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the code= c
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets<= br> or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S




_______________________________________________
codec mailing listcodec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
------=_Part_6809_1955783492.1280238901901-- From Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com Tue Jul 27 07:41:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155023A6BFD for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4bO05QijFAhs for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B563A6BCD for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L6800BA90TSWO@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Moou ([195.70.5.235]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0L6800H690TORJ@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:41:47 +0200 From: Anisse Taleb In-reply-to: <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> To: 'Koen Vos' Message-id: <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_t/Mgjxlhf0W3KARK+3We6g)" Content-language: sv Thread-index: Acstjzac2H4xxUuWTP+kQD6QbjgIrwABjSOA References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:41:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_t/Mgjxlhf0W3KARK+3We6g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. =20 After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and = alarming) behavior of the test subjects.=20 =20 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be = scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden = reference. 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be = performed. This is essentially done to eliminate =E2=80=9Cdeaf=E2=80=9D = subjects (joke). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP = 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. =20 Here is what my =E2=80=9Cquick and dirty=E2=80=9D excel sheet reveals = (this has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below = are based on this): =20 (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. Also, additional comments: - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the = LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra = tests.=20 - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it = got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar=E2=80=A6is this a = software glitch ? =20 At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, = 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis = with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). =20 I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when = conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully = before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a = formal test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of = post-screening and proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think = this point was raised several times by ITU-T experts on this mailing = list. =20 Kind regards, /Anisse PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the = office.=20 From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]=20 Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Attached are the voting results. As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be = comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy = between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself = participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a = significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: = our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) best, koen. _____ =20 From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" = , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user = and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? =20 /Anisse =20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: = http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was = using VBR. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results = available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec --Boundary_(ID_t/Mgjxlhf0W3KARK+3We6g) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt = replies.

 

After a quick glance at the result, I noted some = interesting (and alarming) behavior of the test subjects.

 

1.       According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored at 100, since subjects = must be aware that there is a hidden reference.

2.       It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be performed. This is essentially = done to eliminate =E2=80=9Cdeaf=E2=80=9D subjects (joke). A usual post-screening = is to eliminate subjects that :

a.       Fail in identifying = the anchors, i.e.=C2=A0 Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP = 3.5kHz

b.      Fail in scoring the = Hidden reference above 90.

 

Here is what my =E2=80=9Cquick and dirty=E2=80=9D excel = sheet reveals (this has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based = on this):

 

(1)    =C2=A0Listener 2, 4 = and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100.

(2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and = 8).

(2b) =C2=A0Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90.

Also, additional comments:

-          I believe Listener 2 = and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something = commonly seen in formal mushra tests.

-          Listener 1 seem to = obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar=E2=80=A6is this a software glitch ?

 

At least from my experience I would have eliminated = listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical = analysis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left).

 

I believe, it is very important to maintain high = standards when conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully = before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal = test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and = proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised = several times by ITU-T experts on this =C2=A0mailing list.

 

Kind regards,

/Anisse

PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am = away from the office.

From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] =
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25
To: Anisse Taleb
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test = volunteers

 

Attached are the voting results.

As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy = between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.

One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself = participated in it.  However, we found that our scores did not have a significant = impact on the overall results.  (You're welcome to verify: our scores are = under "listener3" and "listener6".)

best,
koen.

From: = "Anisse Taleb" = <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" = <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers


Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. = scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?

 

/Anisse

 

From:= codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test = volunteers

 

Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using = VBR.

Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results = available?
And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ?



Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a = "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs = with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S



_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

--Boundary_(ID_t/Mgjxlhf0W3KARK+3We6g)-- From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Tue Jul 27 08:19:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B123A69D9 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a87W01vvy7DG for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3436A3A6969 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D9F.240F57B7" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:17:23 -0400 Message-ID: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C98@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: patch: hybrid codec -- added va_end() Thread-Index: AcstmpSQRY5gxtT+QUeEGO4Rtc1MxAABDv9s References: <4C4EF162.7060308@db.org> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" To: "Alfred E. Heggestad" , "Koen Vos" , Subject: Re: [codec] patch: hybrid codec -- added va_end() X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:19:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D9F.240F57B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alfred, Thanks a lot for the patch. It's applied now. I'm putting the list in CC = to keep others up-to-date (you can post any other patch there). Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Alfred E. Heggestad [mailto:aeh@db.org] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:46 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; Koen Vos Subject: patch: hybrid codec -- added va_end() =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D9F.240F57B7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: patch: hybrid codec -- added va_end()

Hi Alfred,

Thanks a lot for the patch. It's applied now. I'm putting the list in CC = to keep others up-to-date (you can post any other patch there).

Cheers,

    Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: Alfred E. Heggestad [mailto:aeh@db.org]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:46 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; Koen Vos
Subject: patch: hybrid codec -- added va_end()

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2D9F.240F57B7-- From koen.vos@skype.net Tue Jul 27 08:30:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AD23A68AB for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9sMPMF62tje for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.skype.net (mx.skype.net [78.141.177.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A65B3A6952 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by mx.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3678816FE; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:30:49 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=skype.net; s=mx; t=1280244649; bh=901AnSeM/C37KilzcdzSZY+SPCDhrQ3mt5/MhOPNGkI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=DSpQTEUYpV95CNOzpHCWO37U9MMcsbphqUZi1Zu65jf+BkKhyF UQYDDU+8I6Kjkg1rncwzNZNRSRNy3F2XaVBX+6nU/Lx6V3EtVcvyglsnOQh/64qzUiB ZqYefZFy6hAwJkChM2UrOMQW6zYmjBMdIBsOE+3QYBMBW4VcnE+8+8= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC38350779F; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:30:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at lu2-zimbra.skype.net Received: from zimbra.skype.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.skype.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ANR5mCEx9O+V; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (lu2-zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93CAB350779D; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:30:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Koen Vos To: Anisse Taleb Message-ID: <2096365622.12901.1280244647463.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> In-Reply-To: <9674846.12839.1280244574444.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12900_1364869947.1280244647460" X-Originating-IP: [130.129.132.204] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64 (ZimbraWebClient - FF3.0 (Win)/6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64) Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:30:35 -0000 ------=_Part_12900_1364869947.1280244647460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Anisse,=20 Completely agree with your comments.=20 Let's do some real listening tests soon.=20 best,=20 koen.=20 From: "Anisse Taleb" =20 To: "Koen Vos" =20 Cc: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" , codec@ietf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:41:47 PM=20 Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies.=20 After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming)= behavior of the test subjects.=20 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored at 1= 00, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference.=20 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be performed.= This is essentially done to eliminate =E2=80=9Cdeaf=E2=80=9D subjects (jok= e). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that :=20 a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP 3.= 5kHz=20 b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90.=20 Here is what my =E2=80=9Cquick and dirty=E2=80=9D excel sheet reveals (this= has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are bas= ed on this):=20 (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100.=20 (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8).=20 (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90.=20 Also, additional comments:=20 - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor= at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests.=20 - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consist= ent score of zero, which is very peculiar=E2=80=A6is this a software glitch= ?=20 At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, a= nd 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with t= he remaining number of listeners (only 3 left).=20 I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting = listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving = conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I = would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper sta= tistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several t= imes by ITU-T experts on this mailing list.=20 Kind regards,=20 /Anisse=20 PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office= .=20 From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]=20 Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25=20 To: Anisse Taleb=20 Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Attached are the voting results.=20 As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be co= mprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy betwe= en SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.=20 One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated = in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact = on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "li= stener3" and "listener6".)=20 best,=20 koen.=20 From: "Anisse Taleb" =20 To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" , codec@ietf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM=20 Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Thank you Jean Marc.=20 Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user an= d item to allow for extra statistical analysis?=20 /Anisse=20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J= ean-Marc Valin=20 Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11=20 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Hi,=20 The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're= on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/procee= dings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf=20 All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being = used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VB= R.=20 Cheers,=20 Jean-Marc=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Anisse Taleb [ mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com ]=20 Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM=20 To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org=20 Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Dear Jean Marc,=20 I understand from you email that you have already some results available?= =20 And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?= =20 Kind regards,=20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of= =20 Jean-Marc Valin=20 Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10=20 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal wa= s=20 to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the code= c=20 and bit and then do another listening test.=20 Cheers,=20 Jean-Marc=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein=20 Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM=20 To: codec@ietf.org=20 Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers=20 Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,=20 why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?=20 If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary"=20 high-quality audio codec for general Internet use=20 (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with=20 strong IPR attachments to large companies),=20 then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.=20 If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets= =20 or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.=20 Y(J)S=20 _______________________________________________=20 codec mailing list=20 codec@ietf.org=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec ------=_Part_12900_1364869947.1280244647460 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'= >Thanks Anisse,

Completely agree with your comments. 
Let's= do some real listening tests soon.

best,
koen.


From: "Anisse Taleb" <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com>
To: "Ko= en Vos" <koen.vos@skype.net>
Cc: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean= -marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>, codec= @ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:41:47 PM
Subject: = RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies.

 

After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) behavior of the test subjects.

 

1.       According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored at 100, since subjects must= be aware that there is a hidden reference.

2.       It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be performed. This is essentially done= to eliminate =E2=80=9Cdeaf=E2=80=9D subjects (joke). A usual post-screening is= to eliminate subjects that :

a.   = ;    Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e.  Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz

b.   = ;   Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90.

 

Here is what my =E2=80=9Cquick and dirty=E2=80=9D excel sheet reveals (t= his has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this):

 

(1)     Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100.

(2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8).

(2b)  Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90.

Also, additional comments:

-   = ;       I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something com= monly seen in formal mushra tests.

-   = ;       Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar=E2=80=A6is this a software glitch ?

 

At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analy= sis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left).

 

I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully befor= e deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal tes= t, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and prop= er statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised severa= l times by ITU-T experts on this  mailing list.

 

Kind regards,

/Anisse

PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office.

From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25
To: Anisse Taleb
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

Attached are the voting results.

As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy bet= ween SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.

One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated = in it.  However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impa= ct on the overall results.  (You're welcome to verify: our scores are und= er "listener3" and "listener6".)

best,
koen.

From: "Anisse Taleb" <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com><= br> To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers


Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?

 

/Anisse

 

From:<= /span> codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're= on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/p= roceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being = used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR.
Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?


Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal wa= s
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the code= c
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets<= br> or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S



_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

------=_Part_12900_1364869947.1280244647460-- From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Tue Jul 27 16:13:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761F13A677C for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:13:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIztkwE9xvlH for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA733A6405 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB2DE1.6E256B45" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:14:14 -0400 Message-ID: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: Acstjzac2H4xxUuWTP+kQD6QbjgIrwABjSOAABKqAwI= References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" To: "Anisse Taleb" , "Koen Vos" Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 23:13:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2DE1.6E256B45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening = tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't = give listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think = the difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that = it cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the = information we were interested in at this point because of the very = early stage of development of the codec. Once we have the codec in = better shape, we'll be doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to = see you getting involved with the methodology (prior to the test this = time). Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM To: 'Koen Vos' Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. =20 After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and = alarming) behavior of the test subjects.=20 =20 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be = scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden = reference. 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be = performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). = A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP = 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. =20 Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been = quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on = this): =20 (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. Also, additional comments: - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the = LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra = tests.=20 - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it = got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a = software glitch ? =20 At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, = 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis = with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). =20 I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when = conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully = before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a = formal test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of = post-screening and proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think = this point was raised several times by ITU-T experts on this mailing = list. =20 Kind regards, /Anisse PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the = office.=20 From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]=20 Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Attached are the voting results. As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be = comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy = between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself = participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a = significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: = our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) best, koen. _____ =20 From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" = , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user = and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? =20 /Anisse =20 From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers =20 Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: = http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was = using VBR. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results = available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2DE1.6E256B45 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Hi,

Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening = tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't = give listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think = the difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that = it cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the = information we were interested in at this point because of the very = early stage of development of the codec. Once we have the codec in = better shape, we'll be doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to = see you getting involved with the methodology (prior to the test this = time).

Cheers,

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM
To: 'Koen Vos'
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies.



After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and = alarming) behavior of the test subjects.



1.       According to Mushra methodology, = one item at least has to be scored at 100, since subjects must be aware = that there is a hidden reference.

2.       It is a custom that a = post-screening of the subject has to be performed. This is essentially = done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A usual = post-screening is to eliminate subjects that :

a.       Fail in identifying the anchors, = i.e.  Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz

b.      Fail in scoring the Hidden reference = above 90.



Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this = has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are = based on this):



(1)     Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item = scored at 100.

(2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and = 8).

(2b)  Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90.



Also, additional comments:

-          I believe = Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor at zero = is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests.

-          Listener 1 seem = to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consistent score of = zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ?



At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, = 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis = with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left).



I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when = conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully = before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a = formal test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of = post-screening and proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think = this point was raised several times by ITU-T experts on this  = mailing list.



Kind regards,

/Anisse

PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the = office.

From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25
To: Anisse Taleb
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



Attached are the voting results.

As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be = comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy = between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.

One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself = participated in it.  However, we found that our scores did not have = a significant impact on the overall results.  (You're welcome to = verify: our scores are under "listener3" and = "listener6".)

best,
koen.



  _____ 

From: "Anisse Taleb" <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, = "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers




Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user = and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?



/Anisse



From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. = They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www= .ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were = being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was = using VBR.

Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results = available?
And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ?



Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the = codec
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a = "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs = with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event = tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S





_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/codec

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB2DE1.6E256B45-- From mknappe@juniper.net Tue Jul 27 18:46:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867973A6858 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.641, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2vyRCi3pQq2 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og121.obsmtp.com (exprod7og121.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD323A63EC for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob121.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTE+L/c/2tgTk2b+xtKRgQpeeKkUKVktP@postini.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:47:10 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:42:26 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: Jean-Marc Valin , Anisse Taleb , Koen Vos Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:42:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: Acstjzac2H4xxUuWTP+kQD6QbjgIrwABjSOAABKqAwIABYMENg== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:46:54 -0000 Just a quick note to everyone... The meeting yesterday was very productive,= we made it through a good number of requirements questions, and set a clea= r timeline at the end to get the guidelines pulled together over the next f= ew weeks. On the mailing list, let=92s start pulling together the overall t= est methodology of both widescale listening tests as Koen suggested as well= as more controlled environment testing as we discussed yesterday, with the= goal to get this info into the guidelines doc. If you were one of the several folks at the meeting yesterday who indicated= you=92d be interested in being a =91test house=92 for the controlled liste= ning experiments, let me know who you are and we=92ll set up a meeting toge= ther. Thanks everyone for participating yesterday! Cheers, Mike On 7/27/10 4:14 PM, "Jean-Marc Valin" wrote: Hi, Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests= only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give liste= ners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the difference = between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it cannot be attri= buted to methodology. This is pretty much all the information we were inter= ested in at this point because of the very early stage of development of th= e codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be doing more contro= lled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved with the methodolog= y (prior to the test this time). Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM To: 'Koen Vos' Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming)= behavior of the test subjects. 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be score= d at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be perf= ormed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A usua= l post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz = > LP 3.5kHz b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickl= y done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. Also, additional comments: - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3= .5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got = a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitc= h ? At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, a= nd 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with t= he remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting = listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving = conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I = would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper sta= tistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several t= imes by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. Kind regards, /Anisse PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office= . From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Attached are the voting results. As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be co= mprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy betwe= en SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated = in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact= on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "= listener3" and "listener6".) best, koen. _____ From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user an= d item to allow for extra statistical analysis? /Anisse From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J= ean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're= on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/procee= dings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being = used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VB= R. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal wa= s to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the code= c and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From mknappe@juniper.net Tue Jul 27 19:09:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADEA3A6944 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.582, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zb-HkB42htiz for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og109.obsmtp.com (exprod7og109.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251B13A6850 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob109.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTE+Rgb9e92Q78sMJjMdQLMjrB3vN9Hxm@postini.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:10:17 PDT Received: from EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::18fe:d666:b43e:f97e]) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::88f9:77fd:dfc:4d51%11]) with mapi; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:09:06 -0700 From: Michael Knappe To: "jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" , "Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com" , "koen.vos@skype.net" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:09:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: Acstjzac2H4xxUuWTP+kQD6QbjgIrwABjSOAABKqAwIABYMENgAA7oP7 Message-ID: <05542EC42316164383B5180707A489EE1D6689B393@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:09:55 -0000 QU5ELi4uIG9mIGNvdXJzZSB0aGUgYW1hemluZyBwcm9ncmVzcyBieSBLb2VuIGFuZCBKZWFuLU1h cmMgb24gdGhlIGNvZGVjIHByb3RvdHlwZSEhIEV2ZW4gb3ZlciB0aGUgcm9vbSBQQSBpdCBzb3Vu ZGVkIGdyZWF0Lg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQoNCk1pa2UNCg0KLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAt LS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogY29kZWMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyA8Y29kZWMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9y Zz4NClRvOiBKZWFuLU1hcmMgVmFsaW4gPGplYW4tbWFyYy52YWxpbkBvY3Rhc2ljLmNvbT47IEFu aXNzZSBUYWxlYiA8QW5pc3NlLlRhbGViQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+OyBLb2VuIFZvcyA8a29lbi52b3NA c2t5cGUubmV0Pg0KQ2M6IGNvZGVjQGlldGYub3JnIDxjb2RlY0BpZXRmLm9yZz4NClNlbnQ6IFR1 ZSBKdWwgMjcgMjE6NDI6MjIgMjAxMApTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2NvZGVjXSBnZXR0aW5nIG1vcmUg bGlzdGVuaW5nLXRlc3Qgdm9sdW50ZWVycw0KDQpKdXN0IGEgcXVpY2sgbm90ZSB0byBldmVyeW9u ZS4uLiBUaGUgbWVldGluZyB5ZXN0ZXJkYXkgd2FzIHZlcnkgcHJvZHVjdGl2ZSwgd2UgbWFkZSBp 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DQpjb2RlYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCmNvZGVjQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NvZGVjDQo= From herve.taddei@huawei.com Thu Jul 29 08:54:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CC23A679F for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:54:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bGglkCqXOjVc for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325913A6802 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L6B009E0TIMHK@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h00900001 ([156.106.232.174]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L6B0076LTIK65@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:54:16 +0200 From: Herve Taddei In-reply-to: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> To: 'Jean-Marc Valin' , 'Anisse Taleb' , 'Koen Vos' Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_k1fIKF6LGlEIpjqBZBip3g)" Thread-index: Acstjzac2H4xxUuWTP+kQD6QbjgIrwABjSOAABKqAwIAVUROcA== References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:54:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_k1fIKF6LGlEIpjqBZBip3g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Jean Marc, A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested in knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell me that? Best regards Herve _____ From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi, Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the information we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved with the methodology (prior to the test this time). Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM To: 'Koen Vos' Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) behavior of the test subjects. 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. Also, additional comments: - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ? At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. Kind regards, /Anisse PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office. From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Attached are the voting results. As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) best, koen. _____ From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thank you Jean Marc. Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? /Anisse From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi, The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Dear Jean Marc, I understand from you email that you have already some results available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? Kind regards, From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. Y(J)S _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec --Boundary_(ID_k1fIKF6LGlEIpjqBZBip3g) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Hi Jean Marc,

 

A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested in knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell me that?

 

Best regards

 

Herve

 

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM
To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

 

Hi,

Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the information we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved with the methodology (prior to the test this time).

Cheers,

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM
To: 'Koen Vos'
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies.



After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) behavior of the test subjects.



1.       According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference.

2.       It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that :

a.       Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e.  Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > LP 3.5kHz

b.      Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90.



Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this):



(1)     Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100.

(2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8).

(2b)  Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90.



Also, additional comments:

-          I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests.

-          Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ?



At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left).



I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several times by ITU-T experts on this  mailing list.



Kind regards,

/Anisse

PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office.

From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25
To: Anisse Taleb
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



Attached are the voting results.

As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec.

One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated in it.  However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact on the overall results.  (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".)

best,
koen.



  _____ 

From: "Anisse Taleb" <Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s@rad.com>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers




Thank you Jean Marc.

Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis?



/Anisse



From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11
To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



Hi,

The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf
All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using VBR.

Cheers,

     Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com]
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Dear Jean Marc,

I understand from you email that you have already some results available?
And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ?



Kind regards,





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10
To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers



I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was
to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec
and bit and then do another listening test.

Cheers,

   Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers

Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk,
why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list?

If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary"
high-quality audio codec for general Internet use
(strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with
strong IPR attachments to large companies),
then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers.

If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets
or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79.

Y(J)S





_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

--Boundary_(ID_k1fIKF6LGlEIpjqBZBip3g)-- From Jean-Marc.Valin@USherbrooke.ca Thu Jul 29 11:51:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645783A69CC for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pkgi0pqEISMm for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpi6.usherbrooke.ca (smtpi6.USherbrooke.ca [132.210.236.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC49C3A65A5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (www03.USherbrooke.ca [132.210.244.10]) by smtpi6.usherbrooke.ca (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6TIpvsn007795; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:51:57 -0400 Received: from 12.230.218.121 ([12.230.218.121]) by www.usherbrooke.ca (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:51:57 -0400 Message-ID: <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:51:57 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin To: Herve Taddei References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 12.230.218.121 X-UdeS-MailScanner-Information: X-MailScanner-ID: o6TIpvsn007795 X-UdeS-MailScanner: Aucun code suspect =?ISO-8859-1?Q?d=E9tect=E9?= X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: n'est pas un polluriel, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.466, requis 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60, RCVD_IN_XBL 3.03, RDNS_NONE 0.10, UDES_MONBUREAU01 -5.00) X-UdeS-MailScanner-From: jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca Cc: codec@ietf.org, 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:51:55 -0000 Hi Herve, The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) has a frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total algorithmic delay of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined codec is adaptive and can range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms (60+5.2). Hope that answers your question. Cheers, Jean-Marc Quoting Herve Taddei : > Hi Jean Marc, > > > > A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested in > knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell me > that? > > > > Best regards > > > > Herve > > > > > > _____ > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM > To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Hi, > > Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests > only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give > listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the > difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it > cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the information > we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of > development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be > doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved > with the methodology (prior to the test this time). > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM > To: 'Koen Vos' > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. > > > > After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) > behavior of the test subjects. > > > > 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored > at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. > > 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be > performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A > usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : > > a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > > LP 3.5kHz > > b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. > > > > Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickly > done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): > > > > (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. > > (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). > > (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. > > > > Also, additional comments: > > - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP > 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. > > - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a > consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ? > > > > At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, > and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with > the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). > > > > I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting > listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving > conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I > would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper > statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several > times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. > > > > Kind regards, > > /Anisse > > PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office. > > From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 > To: Anisse Taleb > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Attached are the voting results. > > As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be > comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy > between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. > > One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated > in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact > on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under > "listener3" and "listener6".) > > best, > koen. > > > > _____ > > From: "Anisse Taleb" > To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" > , codec@ietf.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > Thank you Jean Marc. > > Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and > item to allow for extra statistical analysis? > > > > /Anisse > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 > To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Hi, > > The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're > on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf > All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being > used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using > VBR. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM > To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Dear Jean Marc, > > I understand from you email that you have already some results available? > And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 > To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was > to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec > and bit and then do another listening test. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, > why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? > > If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" > high-quality audio codec for general Internet use > (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with > strong IPR attachments to large companies), > then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. > > If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets > or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. > > Y(J)S > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > > From Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com Thu Jul 29 16:05:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54483A689D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qX7SgPYzfv2I for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F2E3A67C3 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L6C00H2NDH5WA@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Moou ([194.209.131.192]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0L6C00M17DH2Q8@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:05:26 +0200 From: Anisse Taleb In-reply-to: <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> To: 'Jean-Marc Valin' , 'Herve Taddei' Message-id: <006001cb2f72$896891e0$9c39b5a0$%taleb@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: sv Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcsvT1SxUEVspCjUQbW2JcPSxE2FKQAIrkvg References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:05:09 -0000 Hi JM, Is there any synthesis delay at the decoder given that CELT (or at least the CELT part of the hybrid codec) uses an MDCT and that an overlap-add would need some buffering delay ? Kind regards, /Anisse > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: den 29 juli 2010 20:52 > To: Herve Taddei > Cc: codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Hi Herve, > > The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) has a > frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total algorithmic > delay > of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined codec is adaptive and can > range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms (60+5.2). Hope that answers your > question. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > > Quoting Herve Taddei : > > > Hi Jean Marc, > > > > > > > > A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested in > > knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell me > > that? > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > Herve > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Jean-Marc Valin > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM > > To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos > > Cc: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests > > only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give > > listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the > > difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it > > cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the information > > we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of > > development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be > > doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved > > with the methodology (prior to the test this time). > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jean-Marc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM > > To: 'Koen Vos' > > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. > > > > > > > > After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) > > behavior of the test subjects. > > > > > > > > 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored > > at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. > > > > 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be > > performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A > > usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : > > > > a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kHz > > > LP 3.5kHz > > > > b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. > > > > > > > > Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickly > > done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): > > > > > > > > (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. > > > > (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). > > > > (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. > > > > > > > > Also, additional comments: > > > > - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP > > 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. > > > > - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a > > consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ? > > > > > > > > At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, > > and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with > > the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). > > > > > > > > I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting > > listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving > > conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I > > would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper > > statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several > > times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > /Anisse > > > > PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office. > > > > From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] > > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 > > To: Anisse Taleb > > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > > > > Attached are the voting results. > > > > As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be > > comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy > > between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. > > > > One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated > > in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact > > on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under > > "listener3" and "listener6".) > > > > best, > > koen. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: "Anisse Taleb" > > To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" > > , codec@ietf.org > > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Jean Marc. > > > > Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and > > item to allow for extra statistical analysis? > > > > > > > > /Anisse > > > > > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Jean-Marc Valin > > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 > > To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're > > on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf > > All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being > > used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using > > VBR. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jean-Marc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM > > To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Dear Jean Marc, > > > > I understand from you email that you have already some results available? > > And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Jean-Marc Valin > > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 > > To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > > > > I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was > > to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec > > and bit and then do another listening test. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jean-Marc > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein > > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM > > To: codec@ietf.org > > Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, > > why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? > > > > If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" > > high-quality audio codec for general Internet use > > (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with > > strong IPR attachments to large companies), > > then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. > > > > If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets > > or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. > > > > Y(J)S > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > codec mailing list > > codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca Thu Jul 29 17:11:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7277728C1A5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.280, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ra6suwNnHp0K for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E8128C17C for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:11:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([70.81.109.112]) by VL-MO-MR001.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-4.01 (built Aug 3 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0L6C007Q6GJ5HM10@VL-MO-MR001.ip.videotron.ca> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <4C5218B1.3070507@usherbrooke.ca> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:11:29 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.11) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.0.6 To: Anisse Taleb References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <006001cb2f72$896891e0$9c39b5a0$%taleb@huawei.com> In-reply-to: <006001cb2f72$896891e0$9c39b5a0$%taleb@huawei.com> Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:11:18 -0000 Hi Anisse, > Is there any synthesis delay at the decoder given that CELT (or at least the > CELT part of the hybrid codec) uses an MDCT and that an overlap-add would > need some buffering delay ? The CELT total algorithmic delay is equal to the frame size, plus the amount of MDCT overlap. The frame size is adaptive (2.5 to 20 ms), but the overlap is always 2.5 ms. So the algorithmic delay is always frame_size+2.5. I tend to view that as a 2.5 ms look-ahead on the encoder side, but I guess you can also view it as having no encoder look-ahead and a 2.5 ms synthesis delay in the decoder. If you would like to know more on CELT, I recommend the following: [1] J.-M. Valin, T. B. Terriberry, C. Montgomery, G. Maxwell, A High-Quality Speech and Audio Codec With Less Than 10 ms delay, IEEE Transactions on Audio, Speech and Language Processing, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 58-67, 2010. http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_tasl.pdf [2] J.-M. Valin, T. B. Terriberry, G. Maxwell, A Full-Bandwidth Audio Codec with Low Complexity and Very Low Delay, Proc. EUSIPCO, 2009. http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_eusipco2009.pdf [3] The video of "CELT: A low-latency, high-quality audio codec", presented by Timothy Terriberry at Linux.Conf.Au. http://www.celt-codec.org/presentations/ Note that a few things have changed since those were written/presented (especially [1]), but the code CELT ideas remain. Cheers, Jean-Marc From rchen@broadcom.com Thu Jul 29 18:53:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B30F28C114 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EtCvhjalHoWK for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6961E3A67A1 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.131] by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:54:04 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: D3C04415-6FA8-4F2C-93C1-920E106A2031 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.131]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:54:04 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Herve Taddei" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:53:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcsvTzbPk+L+DqBXR5OOEQ99zsMGxQANDqvg Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> In-Reply-To: <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604CEF3610047719700-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:53:57 -0000 Hi Jean-Marc, Thanks for the information on the algorithmic delay of the hybrid codec. =20 Congratulations to you and Koen for achieving such excellent audio quality!= =20 That's pretty impressive. Do you have a rough estimate of the complexity o= f=20 the hybrid codec at that 32 kb/s mode in terms of MIPS and memory footprint= ? According to a Wikipedia article, G.719 has an algorithmic delay of 40 ms a= nd=20 a computational complexity of 18 floating-point MIPS. =20 BV32 has an algorithmic delay of 5 ms and a computational complexity of 17= =20 fixed-point MIPS. =20 How about the delay and complexity of the other two 32 kb/s codecs, CELT an= d=20 SILKWB, shown in slide 8 of that presentation?=20 We know all codecs have four fundamental attributes: bit-rate, quality,=20 delay, and complexity. The figure on slide 8 fixes the bit-rate of 5 codec= s=20 at 32 kb/s and compares their audio quality with three reference conditions= . =20 Therefore, it does not give the whole picture of the relative "merit" of ea= ch=20 codec since it only considers the first two attributes above and ignores th= e=20 delay and complexity. The lower the delay and complexity, the more difficu= lt=20 it is to achieve good quality; there is a clear trade-off. Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average bit- rate of 32 kb/s. That's equivalent to a constant-bit-rate (CBR) codec at a= =20 much higher bit-rate. There is nothing wrong with VBR, it's just that this= =20 also needs to be taken into consideration when comparing different codecs o= n=20 slide 8. Do all 8 conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as th= e=20 reference? Is it common for MUSHRA tests to compare two conditions with very different= =20 audio bandwidths? Comparing two different signals with very different audio bandwidths makes it very easy to tell which signal is reference, so the tes= t is not "blind" any more. I have listened to the speech files of each condition in this test. In my=20 subjective listening opinion, although I don't necessarily agree with the=20 absolute levels of the audio quality of each of these 8 conditions, I do=20 generally agree with the relative rank ordering, with just one exception: I= =20 was very surprised by the relative rank ordering of CELT and BV32. Does th= e=20 relative order of these two codecs surprise you? I listened back and forth= =20 many times and I am still scratching my head about that rank ordering. Best Regards, Raymond -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J= ean-Marc Valin Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:52 AM To: Herve Taddei Cc: codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi Herve, The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) has = a frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total algorithmic d= elay of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined codec is adaptive and can range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms (60+5.2). Hope that answers your quest= ion. Cheers, Jean-Marc Quoting Herve Taddei : > Hi Jean Marc, > > > > A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested = in > knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell = me > that? > > > > Best regards > > > > Herve > > > > > > _____ > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM > To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos > Cc: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Hi, > > Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tes= ts > only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give > listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the > difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it > cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the informat= ion > we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of > development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll b= e > doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved > with the methodology (prior to the test this time). > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM > To: 'Koen Vos' > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. > > > > After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarmin= g) > behavior of the test subjects. > > > > 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be sco= red > at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. > > 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be > performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). = A > usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : > > a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score > LP 7kH= z > > LP 3.5kHz > > b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. > > > > Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quic= kly > done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): > > > > (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. > > (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). > > (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. > > > > Also, additional comments: > > - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP > 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. > > - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it go= t a > consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitc= h ? > > > > At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, > and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis wit= h > the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). > > > > I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conductin= g > listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before derivin= g > conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but = I > would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper > statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised seve= ral > times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. > > > > Kind regards, > > /Anisse > > PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the offi= ce. > > From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 > To: Anisse Taleb > Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Attached are the voting results. > > As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be > comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy > between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. > > One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participate= d > in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impa= ct > on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under > "listener3" and "listener6".) > > best, > koen. > > > > _____ > > From: "Anisse Taleb" > To: "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Yaakov Stein" > , codec@ietf.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > > Thank you Jean Marc. > > Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user = and > item to allow for extra statistical analysis? > > > > /Anisse > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 > To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > Hi, > > The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They'= re > on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf > All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were bein= g > used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using > VBR. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM > To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Dear Jean Marc, > > I understand from you email that you have already some results available? > And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 > To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > > > I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal = was > to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the co= dec > and bit and then do another listening test. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein > Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, > why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? > > If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" > high-quality audio codec for general Internet use > (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with > strong IPR attachments to large companies), > then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. > > If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event ticket= s > or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. > > Y(J)S > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca Thu Jul 29 19:26:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1E83A65A6 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:26:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.558, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8o77oW2BNF9 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E0928C0EA for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:26:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([70.81.109.112]) by VL-MH-MR002.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-4.01 (built Aug 3 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0L6C00GNSMSESNE0@VL-MH-MR002.ip.videotron.ca> for codec@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:26:39 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.11) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.0.6 To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> In-reply-to: Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:26:20 -0000 Hi Raymond, On 10-07-29 09:53 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > Thanks for the information on the algorithmic delay of the hybrid codec. > Congratulations to you and Koen for achieving such excellent audio quality! > That's pretty impressive. Do you have a rough estimate of the complexity of > the hybrid codec at that 32 kb/s mode in terms of MIPS and memory footprint? Not at this point. I'm not too familiar with the complexity of SILK and since this is very early in the development (the combined codec has only existed for a few weeks), this should improve anyway. > According to a Wikipedia article, G.719 has an algorithmic delay of 40 ms and > a computational complexity of 18 floating-point MIPS. To put things in perspective, last year I tried evaluating the complexity of CELT and obtained 17 WMOPS. The methodology was not perfect, so there's a margin of error there, but it should give an idea. As another data point, the unoptimized (no asm) C floating point code runs in real-time (encode+decode) with 0.3% CPU on a 3 GHz Core2 CPU. As for the algorithmic delay, it was 25.2 ms in the conditions of the listening test. > How about the delay and complexity of the other two 32 kb/s codecs, CELT and > SILKWB, shown in slide 8 of that presentation? CELT was run with 22.5 ms delay and SILK had 25.2 ms delay. You can see the quality of CELT when running with much lower delay in these two papers: http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_tasl.pdf http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_eusipco2009.pdf These are unfortunately a bit old though and the quality of CELT has improved a bit since that time. > We know all codecs have four fundamental attributes: bit-rate, quality, > delay, and complexity. The figure on slide 8 fixes the bit-rate of 5 codecs > at 32 kb/s and compares their audio quality with three reference conditions. > Therefore, it does not give the whole picture of the relative "merit" of each > codec since it only considers the first two attributes above and ignores the > delay and complexity. The lower the delay and complexity, the more difficult > it is to achieve good quality; there is a clear trade-off. Obviously, lowering the delay has implications on quality vs bit-rate. CELT is designed to scale from 2.5 ms frames to 20 ms frames (and SILK goes to 60 ms when we really want to save bit-rate). At the same time, because of the header overhead, it is not as important to maintain a low bit-rate at small sampling rates because for 5 ms frames, we are already sending 64 kb/s worth of IP/UDP/RTP headers (not to mention Ethernet). > Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average bit- > rate of 32 kb/s. That's equivalent to a constant-bit-rate (CBR) codec at a > much higher bit-rate. There is nothing wrong with VBR, it's just that this > also needs to be taken into consideration when comparing different codecs on > slide 8. Just note here that although SILK-WB was operating in VBR, the hybrid (even though it has a SILK layer) was using CBR. > Do all 8 conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as the > reference? The full-band codecs are based on the 48 kHz original. The wideband codecs are based on the 7 kHz low-pass after down-sampling, as recommended for BV32 (AFAIK). > Is it common for MUSHRA tests to compare two conditions with very different > audio bandwidths? Comparing two different signals with very different audio > bandwidths makes it very easy to tell which signal is reference, so the test > is not "blind" any more. As far as I know, this is common to have material with different bandwidth with MUSHRA (not with MOS). The test actually mandates the use of a 3.5 kHz low-pass anchor and recommends the use of a 7 kHz LP anchor. > I have listened to the speech files of each condition in this test. In my > subjective listening opinion, although I don't necessarily agree with the > absolute levels of the audio quality of each of these 8 conditions, I do > generally agree with the relative rank ordering, Agreed. > with just one exception: I > was very surprised by the relative rank ordering of CELT and BV32. Does the > relative order of these two codecs surprise you? I listened back and forth > many times and I am still scratching my head about that rank ordering. Yes, it *did* surprise me too, the only explanation I can give is that some people really have a strong preference for full-band despite the artefacts. That being said, when I took the test myself, I'm pretty sure I rated CELT lower than BV32. CELT is simply not designed for running at 32 kb/s and produces artefacts that I personally find objectionable at that rate. I generally recommend using CELT with rates around 48 kb/s (though it sounds OK at 40 kb/s) for speech and around 64 kb/s for music. The only reasons we ran it at 32 kb/s in this test was to demonstrate that the combination of SILK and CELT could produce results that were "better than the sum of each part" at the same rate. Cheers, Jean-Marc > Best Regards, > > Raymond > > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:52 AM > To: Herve Taddei > Cc: codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Hi Herve, > > The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) has a > frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total algorithmic delay > of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined codec is adaptive and can > range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms (60+5.2). Hope that answers your question. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > > Quoting Herve Taddei: > >> Hi Jean Marc, >> >> >> >> A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested in >> knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell me >> that? >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> >> >> Herve >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM >> To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos >> Cc: codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening tests >> only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give >> listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the >> difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it >> cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the information >> we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of >> development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be >> doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved >> with the methodology (prior to the test this time). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM >> To: 'Koen Vos' >> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. >> >> >> >> After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarming) >> behavior of the test subjects. >> >> >> >> 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be scored >> at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. >> >> 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be >> performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke). A >> usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : >> >> a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score> LP 7kHz> >> LP 3.5kHz >> >> b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. >> >> >> >> Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been quickly >> done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): >> >> >> >> (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. >> >> (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). >> >> (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. >> >> >> >> Also, additional comments: >> >> - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the LP >> 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests. >> >> - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it got a >> consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glitch ? >> >> >> >> At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6, >> and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis with >> the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). >> >> >> >> I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducting >> listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before deriving >> conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but I >> would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper >> statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised several >> times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> /Anisse >> >> PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the office. >> >> From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 >> To: Anisse Taleb >> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Attached are the voting results. >> >> As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be >> comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy >> between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. >> >> One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participated >> in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant impact >> on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under >> "listener3" and "listener6".) >> >> best, >> koen. >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: "Anisse Taleb" >> To: "Jean-Marc Valin", "Yaakov Stein" >> , codec@ietf.org >> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> >> Thank you Jean Marc. >> >> Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user and >> item to allow for extra statistical analysis? >> >> >> >> /Anisse >> >> >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 >> To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They're >> on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf >> All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being >> used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using >> VBR. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM >> To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Dear Jean Marc, >> >> I understand from you email that you have already some results available? >> And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community ? >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 >> To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal was >> to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the codec >> and bit and then do another listening test. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM >> To: codec@ietf.org >> Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, >> why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? >> >> If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" >> high-quality audio codec for general Internet use >> (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with >> strong IPR attachments to large companies), >> then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. >> >> If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event tickets >> or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. >> >> Y(J)S >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> codec mailing list >> codec@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >> >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > > From koen.vos@skype.net Fri Jul 30 08:50:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8256E3A69B4 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:50:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98pO-pm6qtq0 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.skype.net (mx.skype.net [78.141.177.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FC13A691B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by mx.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8207FD; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:50:38 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=skype.net; s=mx; t=1280505038; bh=tSsMaN1S/CEcj//c43NB4Yd74q8ZjDk7UTWJQO3rUek=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=NaWAk2H7fyddkGoprbLk6NMa EEG4g5uZ9AbzJUHv20pQfR2Jt5UiJl9WGlqWagMI09u19bGZWtfTcEX1q5c+BdFhcRr gGtVSPrsphyzrb+bjOeSDsH0/LFu9OrM3ujwAEn4YwGcHU8EVLbtIyj9pC21v9kH5nU T2QEZQPWWOw3Y= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE82F1672687; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:50:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at lu2-zimbra.skype.net Received: from zimbra.skype.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.skype.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0roO8E5HWgL; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.skype.net (lu2-zimbra.skype.net [78.141.177.82]) by zimbra.skype.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEABA167268C; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:50:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:50:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Koen Vos To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" Message-ID: <1933720989.124968.1280505037146.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> In-Reply-To: <1557380292.124959.1280505012763.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [84.55.127.131] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64 (ZimbraWebClient - FF3.0 (Win)/6.0.6_GA_2330.UBUNTU8_64) Cc: codec@ietf.org, Anisse Taleb , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:50:17 -0000 Quoting Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen: > Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average > bit- rate of 32 kb/s. Actually, SILK's average bitrate was significantly lower; the 32 kbps is closer to the maximum than to the average bitrate. For some packets the instantaneous bitrate was a few kbps above 32 kbps, but that's not a problem: even for a channel that can only just support a 32 kbps codec, SILK VBR could cause at most a few ms of extra arrival-time jitter. best, koen. From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 30 10:35:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB533A6AC9 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PztEVza2Irmn for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41733A6AC6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.133] by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:35:01 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: D3C04415-6FA8-4F2C-93C1-920E106A2031 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.133]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:21 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:35:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcsvjqwqfJVcVqUnTACAk/kD6oPSmAAfOSNQ Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> In-Reply-To: <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604DD2CF10048532283-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:35:18 -0000 Hi Jean-Marc, Thank you very much for your detailed answers to my questions. They are ve= ry useful. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough so you misunderstood my question "Do all 8 co= nditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as the reference= ?" I was not asking whether the 48 kHz original was used as the input sign= al to all codecs (we know we can't due to different sampling rates). Inste= ad, I was asking whether the 48 kHz original was always used as the referen= ce condition in all the MUSHRA listening pairs. Thanks. Raymond -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 7:27 PM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Hi Raymond, On 10-07-29 09:53 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > Thanks for the information on the algorithmic delay of the hybrid codec. > Congratulations to you and Koen for achieving such excellent audio qualit= y! > That's pretty impressive. Do you have a rough estimate of the complexity= of > the hybrid codec at that 32 kb/s mode in terms of MIPS and memory footpri= nt? Not at this point. I'm not too familiar with the complexity of SILK and=20 since this is very early in the development (the combined codec has only=20 existed for a few weeks), this should improve anyway. > According to a Wikipedia article, G.719 has an algorithmic delay of 40 ms= and > a computational complexity of 18 floating-point MIPS. To put things in perspective, last year I tried evaluating the=20 complexity of CELT and obtained 17 WMOPS. The methodology was not=20 perfect, so there's a margin of error there, but it should give an idea.=20 As another data point, the unoptimized (no asm) C floating point code=20 runs in real-time (encode+decode) with 0.3% CPU on a 3 GHz Core2 CPU. As=20 for the algorithmic delay, it was 25.2 ms in the conditions of the=20 listening test. > How about the delay and complexity of the other two 32 kb/s codecs, CELT = and > SILKWB, shown in slide 8 of that presentation? CELT was run with 22.5 ms delay and SILK had 25.2 ms delay. You can see=20 the quality of CELT when running with much lower delay in these two papers: http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_tasl.pdf http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_eusipco2009.pdf These are unfortunately a bit old though and the quality of CELT has=20 improved a bit since that time. > We know all codecs have four fundamental attributes: bit-rate, quality, > delay, and complexity. The figure on slide 8 fixes the bit-rate of 5 cod= ecs > at 32 kb/s and compares their audio quality with three reference conditio= ns. > Therefore, it does not give the whole picture of the relative "merit" of = each > codec since it only considers the first two attributes above and ignores = the > delay and complexity. The lower the delay and complexity, the more diffi= cult > it is to achieve good quality; there is a clear trade-off. Obviously, lowering the delay has implications on quality vs bit-rate.=20 CELT is designed to scale from 2.5 ms frames to 20 ms frames (and SILK=20 goes to 60 ms when we really want to save bit-rate). At the same time,=20 because of the header overhead, it is not as important to maintain a low=20 bit-rate at small sampling rates because for 5 ms frames, we are already=20 sending 64 kb/s worth of IP/UDP/RTP headers (not to mention Ethernet). > Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average bit= - > rate of 32 kb/s. That's equivalent to a constant-bit-rate (CBR) codec at= a > much higher bit-rate. There is nothing wrong with VBR, it's just that th= is > also needs to be taken into consideration when comparing different codecs= on > slide 8. Just note here that although SILK-WB was operating in VBR, the hybrid=20 (even though it has a SILK layer) was using CBR. > Do all 8 conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as = the > reference? The full-band codecs are based on the 48 kHz original. The wideband=20 codecs are based on the 7 kHz low-pass after down-sampling, as=20 recommended for BV32 (AFAIK). > Is it common for MUSHRA tests to compare two conditions with very differe= nt > audio bandwidths? Comparing two different signals with very different aud= io > bandwidths makes it very easy to tell which signal is reference, so the t= est > is not "blind" any more. As far as I know, this is common to have material with different=20 bandwidth with MUSHRA (not with MOS). The test actually mandates the use=20 of a 3.5 kHz low-pass anchor and recommends the use of a 7 kHz LP anchor. > I have listened to the speech files of each condition in this test. In my > subjective listening opinion, although I don't necessarily agree with the > absolute levels of the audio quality of each of these 8 conditions, I do > generally agree with the relative rank ordering, Agreed. > with just one exception: I > was very surprised by the relative rank ordering of CELT and BV32. Does = the > relative order of these two codecs surprise you? I listened back and for= th > many times and I am still scratching my head about that rank ordering. Yes, it *did* surprise me too, the only explanation I can give is that=20 some people really have a strong preference for full-band despite the=20 artefacts. That being said, when I took the test myself, I'm pretty sure=20 I rated CELT lower than BV32. CELT is simply not designed for running at=20 32 kb/s and produces artefacts that I personally find objectionable at=20 that rate. I generally recommend using CELT with rates around 48 kb/s=20 (though it sounds OK at 40 kb/s) for speech and around 64 kb/s for=20 music. The only reasons we ran it at 32 kb/s in this test was to=20 demonstrate that the combination of SILK and CELT could produce results=20 that were "better than the sum of each part" at the same rate. Cheers, Jean-Marc > Best Regards, > > Raymond > > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:52 AM > To: Herve Taddei > Cc: codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' > Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers > > Hi Herve, > > The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) ha= s a > frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total algorithmic= delay > of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined codec is adaptive and c= an > range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms (60+5.2). Hope that answers your que= stion. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > > Quoting Herve Taddei: > >> Hi Jean Marc, >> >> >> >> A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be interested= in >> knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. Could you please tell= me >> that? >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> >> >> Herve >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM >> To: Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos >> Cc: codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these listening te= sts >> only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is why we didn't give >> listeners highly detailed instructions. That being said, I think the >> difference between the hybrid codec and the others is so large that it >> cannot be attributed to methodology. This is pretty much all the informa= tion >> we were interested in at this point because of the very early stage of >> development of the codec. Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll = be >> doing more controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved >> with the methodology (prior to the test this time). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM >> To: 'Koen Vos' >> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. >> >> >> >> After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and alarmi= ng) >> behavior of the test subjects. >> >> >> >> 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to be sc= ored >> at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a hidden reference. >> >> 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to be >> performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects (joke).= A >> usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : >> >> a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score> LP 7k= Hz> >> LP 3.5kHz >> >> b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. >> >> >> >> Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been qui= ckly >> done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based on this): >> >> >> >> (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. >> >> (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and 8). >> >> (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. >> >> >> >> Also, additional comments: >> >> - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring the L= P >> 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal mushra tests= . >> >> - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since it g= ot a >> consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a software glit= ch ? >> >> >> >> At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, 4, 6= , >> and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical analysis wi= th >> the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). >> >> >> >> I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when conducti= ng >> listening tests and to examine listeners results carefully before derivi= ng >> conclusions. That said, I understand that this is not a formal test, but= I >> would urge you to make the necessary steps of post-screening and proper >> statistical analysis for future tests. I think this point was raised sev= eral >> times by ITU-T experts on this mailing list. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> /Anisse >> >> PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the off= ice. >> >> From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 15:25 >> To: Anisse Taleb >> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Attached are the voting results. >> >> As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant to be >> comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for the synergy >> between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. >> >> One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself participat= ed >> in it. However, we found that our scores did not have a significant imp= act >> on the overall results. (You're welcome to verify: our scores are under >> "listener3" and "listener6".) >> >> best, >> koen. >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: "Anisse Taleb" >> To: "Jean-Marc Valin", "Yaakov Stein" >> , codec@ietf.org >> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:14:32 PM >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> >> Thank you Jean Marc. >> >> Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per user= and >> item to allow for extra statistical analysis? >> >> >> >> /Anisse >> >> >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 >> To: Anisse Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. They= 're >> on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf >> All codecs were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were bei= ng >> used in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using >> VBR. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anisse Taleb [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM >> To: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Dear Jean Marc, >> >> I understand from you email that you have already some results available= ? >> And if yes, would it possible to share these results with the community = ? >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f >> Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 >> To: Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> >> >> I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only goal= was >> to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep improving the c= odec >> and bit and then do another listening test. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Yaakov Stein >> Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM >> To: codec@ietf.org >> Subject: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >> >> Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, >> why not try a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? >> >> If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a "non-proprietary" >> high-quality audio codec for general Internet use >> (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs with >> strong IPR attachments to large companies), >> then I bet there would be quite a few volunteers. >> >> If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event ticke= ts >> or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. >> >> Y(J)S >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> codec mailing list >> codec@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >> >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > > > From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 30 10:36:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25563A68D6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smp4fSxy3e-L for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms1.broadcom.com (mms1.broadcom.com [216.31.210.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E8E3A6AD4 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.133] by mms1.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:35 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 02CED230-5797-4B57-9875-D5D2FEE4708A Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.133]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:37:55 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Koen Vos" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:36:35 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: Acsv/vp7W7184wNUTAqNKyMTeWg5HwADpK9g Message-ID: References: <1557380292.124959.1280505012763.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <1933720989.124968.1280505037146.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> In-Reply-To: <1933720989.124968.1280505037146.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604DD22937O41075773-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , Anisse Taleb , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:36:44 -0000 SGkgS29lbiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gU0lMS1dCLiAgVGhhdCdzIHZl cnkgdXNlZnVsLg0KDQpSYXltb25kDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiBLb2VuIFZvcyBbbWFpbHRvOmtvZW4udm9zQHNreXBlLm5ldF0gDQpTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIEp1 bHkgMzAsIDIwMTAgODo1MSBBTQ0KVG86IFJheW1vbmQgKEp1aW4tSHdleSkgQ2hlbg0KQ2M6IGNv ZGVjQGlldGYub3JnOyBBbmlzc2UgVGFsZWI7IEplYW4tTWFyYyBWYWxpbjsgSGVydmUgVGFkZGVp DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2NvZGVjXSBnZXR0aW5nIG1vcmUgbGlzdGVuaW5nLXRlc3Qgdm9sdW50 ZWVycw0KDQpRdW90aW5nIFJheW1vbmQgKEp1aW4tSHdleSkgQ2hlbjoNCg0KPiBBbHNvLCBzaW5j ZSBTSUxLV0IgaXMgYSB2YXJpYWJsZS1iaXQtcmF0ZSAoVkJSKSBjb2RlYyB3aXRoIGFuIGF2ZXJh Z2UNCj4gYml0LSByYXRlIG9mIDMyIGtiL3MuIA0KDQpBY3R1YWxseSwgU0lMSydzIGF2ZXJhZ2Ug Yml0cmF0ZSB3YXMgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnRseSBsb3dlcjsgdGhlIDMyIGticHMgaXMgY2xvc2VyIHRv IHRoZSBtYXhpbXVtIHRoYW4gdG8gdGhlIGF2ZXJhZ2UgYml0cmF0ZS4gIA0KDQpGb3Igc29tZSBw YWNrZXRzIHRoZSBpbnN0YW50YW5lb3VzIGJpdHJhdGUgd2FzIGEgZmV3IGticHMgYWJvdmUgMzIg a2JwcywgYnV0IHRoYXQncyBub3QgYSBwcm9ibGVtOiBldmVuIGZvciBhIGNoYW5uZWwgdGhhdCBj YW4gb25seSBqdXN0IHN1cHBvcnQgYSAzMiBrYnBzIGNvZGVjLCBTSUxLIFZCUiBjb3VsZCBjYXVz ZSBhdCBtb3N0IGEgZmV3IG1zIG9mIGV4dHJhIGFycml2YWwtdGltZSBqaXR0ZXIuDQoNCmJlc3Qs DQprb2VuLg0KDQo= From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Fri Jul 30 10:53:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB683A6A6E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.554, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QSrNgT8dTUMa for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC963A6ADE for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [142.138.24.19] ([142.138.24.19]) by MAILEXCH.octasic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: <4C5311A4.8040806@octasic.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:53:40 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2010 17:53:40.0585 (UTC) FILETIME=[24D6AD90:01CB3010] Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:53:19 -0000 Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > Perhaps I wasn't clear enough so you misunderstood my question "Do all 8 > conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as the > reference?" I was not asking whether the 48 kHz original was used as > the input signal to all codecs (we know we can't due to different > sampling rates). Instead, I was asking whether the 48 kHz original was > always used as the reference condition in all the MUSHRA listening > pairs. I had indeed misunderstood your question. I'm still not sure I understand it correctly, so let me know if this answers it. In MUSHRA tests, the codecs are not compared in pairs, but rather all codecs (along with the reference and anchors) are presented together. See this screenshot of a MUSHRA application that I wrote (similar to the one we used): http://rateit.sourceforge.net/RateIt.png You can see 9 play buttons: One for the reference ("Ref") and 8 for the codecs under test ("A" to "H") presented in random order (different for each input sample). Among the randomly ordered audio is the "hidden reference" (which is 48 kHz just like the labeled reference), as well as the 3.5 kHz low-pass and 7 kHz low-pass anchors. The MUSHRA methodology is described in ITU-R BS.1534. Hope this helps, Jean-Marc > Thanks. > > Raymond > > -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin > [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 > 7:27 PM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org; > 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test > volunteers > > Hi Raymond, > > On 10-07-29 09:53 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: >> Thanks for the information on the algorithmic delay of the hybrid >> codec. Congratulations to you and Koen for achieving such excellent >> audio quality! That's pretty impressive. Do you have a rough estimate >> of the complexity of the hybrid codec at that 32 kb/s mode in terms of >> MIPS and memory footprint? > > Not at this point. I'm not too familiar with the complexity of SILK and > since this is very early in the development (the combined codec has only > existed for a few weeks), this should improve anyway. > >> According to a Wikipedia article, G.719 has an algorithmic delay of 40 >> ms and a computational complexity of 18 floating-point MIPS. > > To put things in perspective, last year I tried evaluating the > complexity of CELT and obtained 17 WMOPS. The methodology was not > perfect, so there's a margin of error there, but it should give an idea. > As another data point, the unoptimized (no asm) C floating point code > runs in real-time (encode+decode) with 0.3% CPU on a 3 GHz Core2 CPU. As > for the algorithmic delay, it was 25.2 ms in the conditions of the > listening test. > >> How about the delay and complexity of the other two 32 kb/s codecs, >> CELT and SILKWB, shown in slide 8 of that presentation? > > CELT was run with 22.5 ms delay and SILK had 25.2 ms delay. You can see > the quality of CELT when running with much lower delay in these two > papers: http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_tasl.pdf > http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_eusipco2009.pdf > > These are unfortunately a bit old though and the quality of CELT has > improved a bit since that time. > >> We know all codecs have four fundamental attributes: bit-rate, >> quality, delay, and complexity. The figure on slide 8 fixes the >> bit-rate of 5 codecs at 32 kb/s and compares their audio quality with >> three reference conditions. Therefore, it does not give the whole >> picture of the relative "merit" of each codec since it only considers >> the first two attributes above and ignores the delay and complexity. >> The lower the delay and complexity, the more difficult it is to >> achieve good quality; there is a clear trade-off. > > Obviously, lowering the delay has implications on quality vs bit-rate. > CELT is designed to scale from 2.5 ms frames to 20 ms frames (and SILK > goes to 60 ms when we really want to save bit-rate). At the same time, > because of the header overhead, it is not as important to maintain a low > bit-rate at small sampling rates because for 5 ms frames, we are > already sending 64 kb/s worth of IP/UDP/RTP headers (not to mention > Ethernet). > >> Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average >> bit- rate of 32 kb/s. That's equivalent to a constant-bit-rate (CBR) >> codec at a much higher bit-rate. There is nothing wrong with VBR, >> it's just that this also needs to be taken into consideration when >> comparing different codecs on slide 8. > > Just note here that although SILK-WB was operating in VBR, the hybrid > (even though it has a SILK layer) was using CBR. > >> Do all 8 conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal >> as the reference? > > The full-band codecs are based on the 48 kHz original. The wideband > codecs are based on the 7 kHz low-pass after down-sampling, as > recommended for BV32 (AFAIK). > >> Is it common for MUSHRA tests to compare two conditions with very >> different audio bandwidths? Comparing two different signals with very >> different audio bandwidths makes it very easy to tell which signal is >> reference, so the test is not "blind" any more. > > As far as I know, this is common to have material with different > bandwidth with MUSHRA (not with MOS). The test actually mandates the use > of a 3.5 kHz low-pass anchor and recommends the use of a 7 kHz LP > anchor. > >> I have listened to the speech files of each condition in this test. In >> my subjective listening opinion, although I don't necessarily agree >> with the absolute levels of the audio quality of each of these 8 >> conditions, I do generally agree with the relative rank ordering, > > Agreed. > >> with just one exception: I was very surprised by the relative rank >> ordering of CELT and BV32. Does the relative order of these two >> codecs surprise you? I listened back and forth many times and I am >> still scratching my head about that rank ordering. > > Yes, it *did* surprise me too, the only explanation I can give is that > some people really have a strong preference for full-band despite the > artefacts. That being said, when I took the test myself, I'm pretty sure > I rated CELT lower than BV32. CELT is simply not designed for running > at 32 kb/s and produces artefacts that I personally find objectionable > at that rate. I generally recommend using CELT with rates around 48 kb/s > (though it sounds OK at 40 kb/s) for speech and around 64 kb/s for > music. The only reasons we ran it at 32 kb/s in this test was to > demonstrate that the combination of SILK and CELT could produce results > that were "better than the sum of each part" at the same rate. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > >> Best Regards, >> >> Raymond >> >> -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: >> Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:52 AM To: Herve Taddei Cc: codec@ietf.org; >> 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >> volunteers >> >> Hi Herve, >> >> The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) >> has a frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total >> algorithmic delay of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined >> codec is adaptive and can range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms >> (60+5.2). Hope that answers your question. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> >> Quoting Herve Taddei: >> >>> Hi Jean Marc, >>> >>> >>> >>> A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be >>> interested in knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. >>> Could you please tell me that? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Herve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM To: >>> Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] >>> getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these >>> listening tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is >>> why we didn't give listeners highly detailed instructions. That >>> being said, I think the difference between the hybrid codec and the >>> others is so large that it cannot be attributed to methodology. This >>> is pretty much all the information we were interested in at this >>> point because of the very early stage of development of the codec. >>> Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be doing more >>> controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved with >>> the methodology (prior to the test this time). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb >>> [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM To: >>> 'Koen Vos' Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. >>> >>> >>> >>> After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and >>> alarming) behavior of the test subjects. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to >>> be scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a >>> hidden reference. >>> >>> 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to >>> be performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects >>> (joke). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : >>> >>> a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score> >>> LP 7kHz> LP 3.5kHz >>> >>> b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been >>> quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based >>> on this): >>> >>> >>> >>> (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. >>> >>> (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and >>> 8). >>> >>> (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also, additional comments: >>> >>> - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring >>> the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal >>> mushra tests. >>> >>> - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since >>> it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a >>> software glitch ? >>> >>> >>> >>> At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, >>> 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical >>> analysis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when >>> conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results >>> carefully before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that >>> this is not a formal test, but I would urge you to make the >>> necessary steps of post-screening and proper statistical analysis >>> for future tests. I think this point was raised several times by >>> ITU-T experts on this mailing list. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> /Anisse >>> >>> PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the >>> office. >>> >>> From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] Sent: den 27 juli 2010 >>> 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; >>> codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >>> volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached are the voting results. >>> >>> As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant >>> to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for >>> the synergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. >>> >>> One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself >>> participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have >>> a significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to >>> verify: our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) >>> >>> best, koen. >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc >>> Valin", "Yaakov Stein" >>> , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 >>> 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >>> volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you Jean Marc. >>> >>> Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per >>> user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? >>> >>> >>> >>> /Anisse >>> >>> >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse >>> Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting >>> more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. >>> They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: >>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs >>> were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used >>> in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using >>> VBR. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb >>> [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: >>> Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] >>> getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Dear Jean Marc, >>> >>> I understand from you email that you have already some results >>> available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with >>> the community ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov >>> Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more >>> listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only >>> goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep >>> improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of >>> Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: >>> [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try >>> a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? >>> >>> If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a >>> "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use >>> (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs >>> with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there >>> would be quite a few volunteers. >>> >>> If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event >>> tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. >>> >>> Y(J)S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list >>> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list >> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From gmaxwell@juniper.net Fri Jul 30 11:05:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E5B3A6AD6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HprcfGiS2h-i for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og106.obsmtp.com (exprod7og106.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9C33A6ACA for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob106.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTFMUgmIx27LGi9K+HXRqSy1SXC3pu9Bu@postini.com; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:06:09 PDT Received: from EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net ([fe80::c821:7c81:f21f:8bc7]) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([::1]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:03:51 -0700 From: Gregory Maxwell To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" , Jean-Marc Valin , Herve Taddei Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:03:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcsvTzbPk+L+DqBXR5OOEQ99zsMGxQANDqvgACMMtT0= Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:05:45 -0000 Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen [rchen@broadcom.com] wrote: > generally agree with the relative rank ordering, with just one exception:= I > was very surprised by the relative rank ordering of CELT and BV32. Does = the > relative order of these two codecs surprise you? I listened back and for= th > many times and I am still scratching my head about that rank ordering. This is unsurprising to me.=20 While I'm not currently aware of research which has evaluated this point In= detail, in the past I've conducted testing in order to determine a low-pa= ss selection for a single codec =97 trading off band-pass in exchange for a= rtifacts. What I found is that normal unprepared listeners _aggressively_ = preferred the wider bandwidth even over an intentionally handicapped altern= ative with significant artifacts. In one amusing test I had been frustrated by how severely PEAQ was penalizi= ng the low-pass version so I conducted a human listening test and found tha= t it correlated very well with the PEAQ results, much to my chagrin.=20 I believe this is because the low-pass is so obvious that it takes no thoug= ht to recognize it and declare the wider bandpass to be the winner. =20 I found that if prior to the test the listeners are exposed to constructed = examples highlighting common artifacts (e.g. pre-echo, birdies) that they = were more likely to produce ratings similar to the ones which I would produ= ce. I believe that this is also the reason for some of the pre-test procedu= res in the BS.1534-1 (MUSHRA) document.=20 However, I don't know if this constitutes a fair and equitable testing envi= ronment. Most users of any particular codec have not had "artifact training= "=97 so the unprepared results might better reflect the real performance. = On the other hand, I could argue that the initial preference for wider ban= dwidth is an initial impression effect and that even the untrained listener= s would eventually prefer the less artifacted version after extended use...= but I'm really waving my hands there, I don't have any data to support tha= t position. From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 30 12:20:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012C93A6AF6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoS6RGFwz30l for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7A23A6768 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.131] by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:19 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: D3C04415-6FA8-4F2C-93C1-920E106A2031 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.131]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:19 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:18 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcswEC2PS9lN/g+wSnugc/RH2ZiWjAACjOSQ Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> <4C5311A4.8040806@octasic.com> In-Reply-To: <4C5311A4.8040806@octasic.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604DFA7910048625491-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:20:12 -0000 Hi Jean-Marc, Thanks for your explanation. I was just asking whether the 48 kHz original was used as the only reference for all 8 conditions on slide 8 (as opposed to, say, using "LP 7k" as the reference for SILKWB and BV32). I admit that I have been too busy and haven't had a chance to do the MUSHRA test you and Koen prepared, and I haven't read ITU-R BS.1534-1. I thought I previously saw some audio coding papers where people did listening tests by presenting the reference condition first, followed by two conditions in random order, where one of them was the reference and the other was the codec under test. I thought this was what you did to get the figure on slide 8. The Wikipedia article on MUSHRA has a sentence "This is due to the fact that all comparisons are paired (i.e. a paired t-test can be used)..." That's also why I thought your MUSHRA test used paired comparisons. Thanks. Raymond -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com] Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 10:54 AM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > Perhaps I wasn't clear enough so you misunderstood my question "Do all 8 > conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal as the > reference?" I was not asking whether the 48 kHz original was used as > the input signal to all codecs (we know we can't due to different > sampling rates). Instead, I was asking whether the 48 kHz original was > always used as the reference condition in all the MUSHRA listening > pairs. I had indeed misunderstood your question. I'm still not sure I understand it correctly, so let me know if this answers it. In MUSHRA tests, the codecs are not compared in pairs, but rather all codecs (along with the reference and anchors) are presented together. See this screenshot of a MUSHRA application that I wrote (similar to the one we used): http://rateit.sourceforge.net/RateIt.png You can see 9 play buttons: One for the reference ("Ref") and 8 for the codecs under test ("A" to "H") presented in random order (different for each input sample). Among the randomly ordered audio is the "hidden reference" (which is 48 kHz just like the labeled reference), as well as the 3.5 kHz low-pass and 7 kHz low-pass anchors. The MUSHRA methodology is described in ITU-R BS.1534. Hope this helps, Jean-Marc > Thanks. > > Raymond > > -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin > [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 > 7:27 PM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Herve Taddei; codec@ietf.org; > 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test > volunteers > > Hi Raymond, > > On 10-07-29 09:53 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: >> Thanks for the information on the algorithmic delay of the hybrid >> codec. Congratulations to you and Koen for achieving such excellent >> audio quality! That's pretty impressive. Do you have a rough estimate >> of the complexity of the hybrid codec at that 32 kb/s mode in terms of >> MIPS and memory footprint? > > Not at this point. I'm not too familiar with the complexity of SILK and > since this is very early in the development (the combined codec has only > existed for a few weeks), this should improve anyway. > >> According to a Wikipedia article, G.719 has an algorithmic delay of 40 >> ms and a computational complexity of 18 floating-point MIPS. > > To put things in perspective, last year I tried evaluating the > complexity of CELT and obtained 17 WMOPS. The methodology was not > perfect, so there's a margin of error there, but it should give an idea. > As another data point, the unoptimized (no asm) C floating point code > runs in real-time (encode+decode) with 0.3% CPU on a 3 GHz Core2 CPU. As > for the algorithmic delay, it was 25.2 ms in the conditions of the > listening test. > >> How about the delay and complexity of the other two 32 kb/s codecs, >> CELT and SILKWB, shown in slide 8 of that presentation? > > CELT was run with 22.5 ms delay and SILK had 25.2 ms delay. You can see > the quality of CELT when running with much lower delay in these two > papers: http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_tasl.pdf > http://jmvalin.ca/papers/celt_eusipco2009.pdf > > These are unfortunately a bit old though and the quality of CELT has > improved a bit since that time. > >> We know all codecs have four fundamental attributes: bit-rate, >> quality, delay, and complexity. The figure on slide 8 fixes the >> bit-rate of 5 codecs at 32 kb/s and compares their audio quality with >> three reference conditions. Therefore, it does not give the whole >> picture of the relative "merit" of each codec since it only considers >> the first two attributes above and ignores the delay and complexity. >> The lower the delay and complexity, the more difficult it is to >> achieve good quality; there is a clear trade-off. > > Obviously, lowering the delay has implications on quality vs bit-rate. > CELT is designed to scale from 2.5 ms frames to 20 ms frames (and SILK > goes to 60 ms when we really want to save bit-rate). At the same time, > because of the header overhead, it is not as important to maintain a low > bit-rate at small sampling rates because for 5 ms frames, we are > already sending 64 kb/s worth of IP/UDP/RTP headers (not to mention > Ethernet). > >> Also, since SILKWB is a variable-bit-rate (VBR) codec with an average >> bit- rate of 32 kb/s. That's equivalent to a constant-bit-rate (CBR) >> codec at a much higher bit-rate. There is nothing wrong with VBR, >> it's just that this also needs to be taken into consideration when >> comparing different codecs on slide 8. > > Just note here that although SILK-WB was operating in VBR, the hybrid > (even though it has a SILK layer) was using CBR. > >> Do all 8 conditions on slide 8 use the 48 kHz sampled original signal >> as the reference? > > The full-band codecs are based on the 48 kHz original. The wideband > codecs are based on the 7 kHz low-pass after down-sampling, as > recommended for BV32 (AFAIK). > >> Is it common for MUSHRA tests to compare two conditions with very >> different audio bandwidths? Comparing two different signals with very >> different audio bandwidths makes it very easy to tell which signal is >> reference, so the test is not "blind" any more. > > As far as I know, this is common to have material with different > bandwidth with MUSHRA (not with MOS). The test actually mandates the use > of a 3.5 kHz low-pass anchor and recommends the use of a 7 kHz LP > anchor. > >> I have listened to the speech files of each condition in this test. In >> my subjective listening opinion, although I don't necessarily agree >> with the absolute levels of the audio quality of each of these 8 >> conditions, I do generally agree with the relative rank ordering, > > Agreed. > >> with just one exception: I was very surprised by the relative rank >> ordering of CELT and BV32. Does the relative order of these two >> codecs surprise you? I listened back and forth many times and I am >> still scratching my head about that rank ordering. > > Yes, it *did* surprise me too, the only explanation I can give is that > some people really have a strong preference for full-band despite the > artefacts. That being said, when I took the test myself, I'm pretty sure > I rated CELT lower than BV32. CELT is simply not designed for running > at 32 kb/s and produces artefacts that I personally find objectionable > at that rate. I generally recommend using CELT with rates around 48 kb/s > (though it sounds OK at 40 kb/s) for speech and around 64 kb/s for > music. The only reasons we ran it at 32 kb/s in this test was to > demonstrate that the combination of SILK and CELT could produce results > that were "better than the sum of each part" at the same rate. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > >> Best Regards, >> >> Raymond >> >> -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: >> Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:52 AM To: Herve Taddei Cc: codec@ietf.org; >> 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >> volunteers >> >> Hi Herve, >> >> The codec described in the slides (and included in the listening test) >> has a frame size of 20 ms, with a look-ahead of 5.2 ms, for a total >> algorithmic delay of 25.2 ms. In general, the delay of the combined >> codec is adaptive and can range from 5 ms (2.5+2.5) to 65.2 ms >> (60+5.2). Hope that answers your question. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> >> Quoting Herve Taddei: >> >>> Hi Jean Marc, >>> >>> >>> >>> A small question as I cant see that on the slides, I would be >>> interested in knowing what is the delay of the codec under test. >>> Could you please tell me that? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Herve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:14 AM To: >>> Anisse Taleb; Koen Vos Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] >>> getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Just to put things into perspective, we decided to do these >>> listening tests only 2 days before flying to Maastricht, which is >>> why we didn't give listeners highly detailed instructions. That >>> being said, I think the difference between the hybrid codec and the >>> others is so large that it cannot be attributed to methodology. This >>> is pretty much all the information we were interested in at this >>> point because of the very early stage of development of the codec. >>> Once we have the codec in better shape, we'll be doing more >>> controlled tests and we'd be glad to see you getting involved with >>> the methodology (prior to the test this time). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb >>> [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 10:41 AM To: >>> 'Koen Vos' Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Thanks Koen and JM, for the prompt replies. >>> >>> >>> >>> After a quick glance at the result, I noted some interesting (and >>> alarming) behavior of the test subjects. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. According to Mushra methodology, one item at least has to >>> be scored at 100, since subjects must be aware that there is a >>> hidden reference. >>> >>> 2. It is a custom that a post-screening of the subject has to >>> be performed. This is essentially done to eliminate "deaf" subjects >>> (joke). A usual post-screening is to eliminate subjects that : >>> >>> a. Fail in identifying the anchors, i.e. Hidden ref score> >>> LP 7kHz> LP 3.5kHz >>> >>> b. Fail in scoring the Hidden reference above 90. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is what my "quick and dirty" excel sheet reveals (this has been >>> quickly done, so please cross-check, my conclusions below are based >>> on this): >>> >>> >>> >>> (1) Listener 2, 4 and 8 failed in having an item scored at 100. >>> >>> (2a) Listener 1 fails at keeping the order in two items (item 6 and >>> 8). >>> >>> (2b) Listener 1 and 4 fail at scoring the HR above 90. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also, additional comments: >>> >>> - I believe Listener 2 and 6 scoring are extreme. Scoring >>> the LP 3.5 anchor at zero is not something commonly seen in formal >>> mushra tests. >>> >>> - Listener 1 seem to obviously not like CELT at all, since >>> it got a consistent score of zero, which is very peculiar.is this a >>> software glitch ? >>> >>> >>> >>> At least from my experience I would have eliminated listeners 1, 2, >>> 4, 6, and 8, which does not leave much room for proper statistical >>> analysis with the remaining number of listeners (only 3 left). >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe, it is very important to maintain high standards when >>> conducting listening tests and to examine listeners results >>> carefully before deriving conclusions. That said, I understand that >>> this is not a formal test, but I would urge you to make the >>> necessary steps of post-screening and proper statistical analysis >>> for future tests. I think this point was raised several times by >>> ITU-T experts on this mailing list. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> /Anisse >>> >>> PS: I was planning on taking the test myself, but I am away from the >>> office. >>> >>> From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] Sent: den 27 juli 2010 >>> 15:25 To: Anisse Taleb Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; Yaakov Stein; >>> codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >>> volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached are the voting results. >>> >>> As we pointed out during the presentation, this test was not meant >>> to be comprehensive or formal, but rather to provide evidence for >>> the synergy between SILK and CELT in the hybrid codec. >>> >>> One particular flaw in the test was that Jean-Marc and myself >>> participated in it. However, we found that our scores did not have >>> a significant impact on the overall results. (You're welcome to >>> verify: our scores are under "listener3" and "listener6".) >>> >>> best, koen. >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: "Anisse Taleb" To: "Jean-Marc >>> Valin", "Yaakov Stein" >>> , codec@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 >>> 2:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test >>> volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you Jean Marc. >>> >>> Is it possible to also upload the raw data results, i.e. scores per >>> user and item to allow for extra statistical analysis? >>> >>> >>> >>> /Anisse >>> >>> >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 12:11 To: Anisse >>> Taleb; Yaakov Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting >>> more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The results were actually presented yesterday in the codec session. >>> They're on slide 8 of the codec prototype presentation: >>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/codec-0.pdf All codecs >>> were tested at 32 kb/s on speech by 8 listeners. All were being used >>> in constant bit-rate (CBR) mode except for SILK-WB, which was using >>> VBR. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Anisse Taleb >>> [mailto:Anisse.Taleb@huawei.com] Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 5:59 AM To: >>> Jean-Marc Valin; 'Yaakov Stein'; codec@ietf.org Subject: RE: [codec] >>> getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Dear Jean Marc, >>> >>> I understand from you email that you have already some results >>> available? And if yes, would it possible to share these results with >>> the community ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin Sent: den 27 juli 2010 10:10 To: Yaakov >>> Stein; codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] getting more >>> listening-test volunteers >>> >>> >>> >>> I actually think we should be alright for this time, since the only >>> goal was to have a rough idea of how well we're doing. We'll keep >>> improving the codec and bit and then do another listening test. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jean-Marc >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of >>> Yaakov Stein Sent: Tue 7/27/2010 2:56 AM To: codec@ietf.org Subject: >>> [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers >>> >>> Before offering money for listeners on Mechanical Turk, why not try >>> a request for volunteers on the IETF discussion list? >>> >>> If it is explained that the aim is to standardize a >>> "non-proprietary" high-quality audio codec for general Internet use >>> (strongly implying that this would obviate the need to use codecs >>> with strong IPR attachments to large companies), then I bet there >>> would be quite a few volunteers. >>> >>> If you want even more, then you could raffle off some social-event >>> tickets or even a grand prize of free admission to IETF79. >>> >>> Y(J)S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list >>> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list >> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 30 12:28:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2068A3A6AFC for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3BCPmPe6jYL for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08303A6AEB for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.131] by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:29:01 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: D3C04415-6FA8-4F2C-93C1-920E106A2031 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.131]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:29:01 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Gregory Maxwell" , "Jean-Marc Valin" , "Herve Taddei" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:28:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcsvTzbPk+L+DqBXR5OOEQ99zsMGxQANDqvgACMMtT0AA0Ry4A== Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604DF87710048634595-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:28:42 -0000 Hi Greg, Thanks a lot for sharing your previous test experience and your thoughts=20 and opinions on this subject. What you shared is very interesting. I would agree with you that usually the longer a person listens to lossy=20 compression of audio by a particular codec, the easier it is for the person= =20 to detect and perceive the coding distortion produced by that codec. =20 At least that's my own personal experience. Raymond -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Maxwell [mailto:gmaxwell@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:04 AM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen; Jean-Marc Valin; Herve Taddei Cc: codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: RE: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen [rchen@broadcom.com] wrote: > generally agree with the relative rank ordering, with just one exception:= I > was very surprised by the relative rank ordering of CELT and BV32. Does = the > relative order of these two codecs surprise you? I listened back and for= th > many times and I am still scratching my head about that rank ordering. This is unsurprising to me.=20 While I'm not currently aware of research which has evaluated this point In= detail, in the past I've conducted testing in order to determine a low-pa= ss selection for a single codec - trading off band-pass in exchange for art= ifacts. What I found is that normal unprepared listeners _aggressively_ pr= eferred the wider bandwidth even over an intentionally handicapped alternat= ive with significant artifacts. In one amusing test I had been frustrated by how severely PEAQ was penalizi= ng the low-pass version so I conducted a human listening test and found tha= t it correlated very well with the PEAQ results, much to my chagrin.=20 I believe this is because the low-pass is so obvious that it takes no thoug= ht to recognize it and declare the wider bandpass to be the winner. =20 I found that if prior to the test the listeners are exposed to constructed = examples highlighting common artifacts (e.g. pre-echo, birdies) that they = were more likely to produce ratings similar to the ones which I would produ= ce. I believe that this is also the reason for some of the pre-test procedu= res in the BS.1534-1 (MUSHRA) document.=20 However, I don't know if this constitutes a fair and equitable testing envi= ronment. Most users of any particular codec have not had "artifact training= "- so the unprepared results might better reflect the real performance. O= n the other hand, I could argue that the initial preference for wider bandw= idth is an initial impression effect and that even the untrained listeners = would eventually prefer the less artifacted version after extended use... b= ut I'm really waving my hands there, I don't have any data to support that = position. From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com Fri Jul 30 12:37:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209B53A6AF8 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.036, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BqEPmagHM1wN for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILEXCH.octasic.com (mail.octasic.com [70.54.254.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A1B3A6AEB for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [142.138.24.19] ([142.138.24.19]) by MAILEXCH.octasic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:38:20 -0400 Message-ID: <4C532A2C.2010604@octasic.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:38:20 -0400 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> <4C5311A4.8040806@octasic.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2010 19:38:20.0149 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3C01A50:01CB301E] Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:37:58 -0000 Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > The Wikipedia article on MUSHRA has a sentence "This is due to the fact > that all comparisons are paired (i.e. a paired t-test can be used)..." > That's also why I thought your MUSHRA test used paired comparisons. I think I'm actually the person who wrote that sentence on Wikipedia and apparently it was ambiguous :-) What I meant by "paired comparison" in this context is not that the listener is presented with pairs, but the fact that when doing the statistical analysis of the data later on, one can use paired statistical tests to compare different codecs. That's because it's the same sample that gets presented to the user with multiple codecs. Cheers, Jean-Marc From rchen@broadcom.com Fri Jul 30 12:41:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCFEB3A6B08 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:41:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Ci-GS5wM3hX for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MMS3.broadcom.com (mms3.broadcom.com [216.31.210.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9983A6AF8 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.200.133] by MMS3.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:41:31 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: B55A25B1-5D7D-41F8-BC53-C57E7AD3C201 Received: from IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.252.49.30]) by IRVEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.9.200.133]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:42:49 -0700 From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" To: "Jean-Marc Valin" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:41:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Thread-Index: AcswHswaEL4WRF2JQ8S+vZyTX/k93AAAFR7Q Message-ID: References: <532039292.5705.1280237016900.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <195376056.5755.1280237098617.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra> <008d01cb2d99$d93163d0$8b942b70$%taleb@huawei.com> <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3604932C9A@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <1280429517.4c51cdcd80aff@www.usherbrooke.ca> <4C52385F.8050609@usherbrooke.ca> <4C5311A4.8040806@octasic.com> <4C532A2C.2010604@octasic.com> In-Reply-To: <4C532A2C.2010604@octasic.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 604DF5613KC57052822-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "codec@ietf.org" , 'Anisse Taleb' , Jean-Marc Valin Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:41:25 -0000 Hi Jean-Marc, OK, thanks for the explanation. Raymond -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]=20 Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:38 PM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; codec@ietf.org; 'Anisse Taleb' Subject: Re: [codec] getting more listening-test volunteers Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote: > The Wikipedia article on MUSHRA has a sentence "This is due to the fact > that all comparisons are paired (i.e. a paired t-test can be used)..." > That's also why I thought your MUSHRA test used paired comparisons. I think I'm actually the person who wrote that sentence on Wikipedia and=20 apparently it was ambiguous :-) What I meant by "paired comparison" in this= =20 context is not that the listener is presented with pairs, but the fact that= =20 when doing the statistical analysis of the data later on, one can use=20 paired statistical tests to compare different codecs. That's because it's=20 the same sample that gets presented to the user with multiple codecs. Cheers, Jean-Marc