Sirs,

Earlier this week Mr Duffet & Mr Sokol performed a demo at WebRTC = Expo in Atlanta. It involved Asterisk on a Raspberry Pi interacting with = Chrome via WebRTC.

TMC put the video online.

http://= www.tmcnet.com/tmc/videos/default.aspx?vid=3D8549

The implication is that Asterisk now or will soon handle Opus, web = sockets, etc.

Michael Graves

From: = codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Anthony Minessale
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 7:04 = PM
To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
Cc: = codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] [asterisk-dev] Opus and = VP8

I = think everything you can iterate about VoIP / Internet / Security in = general leads to some patent claim or = another.

We've had a working Opus module in FreeSWITCH for over = a year now and our new WebRTC beta utilizes it. https://webrtc.freeswitch.org<= o:p>

We're in a similar boat = with video and have to do some work if we wanted to achieve = transcoding.

Asterisk already has Silk and CELT anyway so aren't = they already opening that can of worms?

On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Cullen Jennings = (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> = wrote:

Well, = Asterisk does SIP and that has way more IPR on it than Opus, so uh, I = guess you will need to decide if you think some random claim on IETF web = site is a valid concern or not. Good luck. Note that blocking all = forward progress on asterisk by filing claims on an IETF web page is = also a risk to the project.

(Oh, and TLS has lots of IPR = too)

PS - every effort possible has been made to ensure that Opus = is GPL compatible.

On May 30, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Olle E. Johansson = <oej@edvina.net> = wrote:

> Please comment on this statement about Opus from Matt = Jordan, the
> project leader for the Asterisk = project.
>
> Regards,
> /Olle
>
> = Vidarebefordrat brev:
>
>> Fr=E5n: Matthew Jordan <mjordan@digium.com>
>>= =C4mne: Re: [asterisk-dev] Opus and VP8
>> Datum: 29 maj 2013 = 20:55:58 CEST
>> Till: asterisk-dev@lists.digium.c= om
>> Svara till: Asterisk Developers Mailing List <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.c= om>
>>
>> On 05/25/2013 05:19 AM, Hans Witvliet = wrote:
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = Olle E. Johansson <oej@edvina.net>
>>> = Reply-to: Asterisk Developers Mailing List
>>> <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.c= om>
>>> To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.c= om>
>>> Cc: Olle E. Johansson <oej@edvina.net>
>>> = Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Opus and VP8
>>> Date: Fri, 24 = May 2013 13:26:29 +0200
>>>
>>>
>>> = 24 maj 2013 kl. 12:51 skrev Lorenzo Miniero <lminiero@gmail.com>:
>>= ;>
>>>> PS: a few months ago I also talked, on the = #asterisk-dev IRC, about
>>>> the support I added for = both Opus (transcoding) and VP8 (passthrough)
>>>> in = Asterisk, codecs that are currently the default ones used = in
>>>> WebRTC. I checked whether there was an interest = in a patch for them,
>>>> but at the time there were some = concerns about the copyright status of
>>>> Opus that = prevented it to be considered for integration in = Asterisk.
>>>> Has this situation changed in the = meanwhile? I can open a separate
>>>> thread for this if = needed.
>>>>
>>> = Lorenzo,
>>>
>>>
>>> Good seeing you = here!
>>>
>>>
>>> Due to legal = issues I don't think Digium can accept a contribution of
>>> = Opus and VP8 in the svn repositories = today.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would encourage = you, if you have these patches, to publish them on a
>>> web = site like github or sourceforge so w all can help you test it. = I
>>> really would like for these to be available for the = community in an easy
>>> = form.
>>>
>>
>> = <snip>
>>
>> Hello! I'm going to comment here = specifically to clarify Digium's
>> position on Opus and VP8 as = codecs and their inclusion in Asterisk.
>>
>> To = start, pass through support in the form of a format module is = fine
>> for both Opus and VP8. It involves no transcoding and = hence cannot
>> violate any claims against their technology. = We'd be happy to see format
>> modules in = Asterisk.
>>
>> VP8 is the easier of the two to = clarify. A codec for VP8 is probably not
>> appropriate, = regardless of any patent or IPR issues. Asterisk doesn't
>> = perform video transcoding. Video transcoding is an intensive = operation
>> that performs poorly without hardware = augmentation. We've always taken
>> the stance that software = video transcoding in Asterisk would cause more
>> problems then = it would solve; as such, VP8 as a codec is best left
>> outside = of Asterisk.
>>
>> The real question is: what about = Opus?
>>
>> Before that, a word about the American = patent system.
>>
>> The American patent system has = devolved into what can only be charitably
>> described as = mafia-inspired extortion. Non-practicing entities (NPEs)
>> are = groups of lawyers who have not and never will produce, market, = or
>> sell a product. The only actions they perform are filing = infringement
>> claims against businesses and individuals, = regardless of whether or not
>> that business or individual = actually violates a patent, with the sole
>> purpose of = extracting as much money out of said business or individual
>> = as they can. The cost of fighting these claims is enormous. The cost = of
>> losing a fight against even one of these claims is = crippling. The NPEs
>> know this. Technical merit, logic, = rationale, or any kind of morality
>> has no applicability = here: these folks exist solely to find new and more
>> creative = ways to make claims against you and take your = money.
>>
>> They'd be happy to put you out of = business in the process.
>>
>> Back to = Opus.
>>
>> There are several IPRs filed against Opus = with the unfortunate licensing
>> declaration of = "Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory License to All
>> = Implementers with Possible Royalty/Fee." These IPRs have not = been
>> clarified, and the entities making these claims have = not moved one way
>> or the other regarding their claims. If = any one of these entities
>> decides to play the NPE game (see: = Alcatel-Lucent), they could crush
>> Digium like a bug. They = could go after every user, integrator, and
>> developer of = Asterisk as well. It has the potential of spelling the end
>> = of the Asterisk project. The risk of this unfortunately does not = justify
>> the inclusion of Opus as a codec in = Asterisk.
>>
>> Question: I am a user, integrator, and = developer of Asterisk that does
>> not work for Digium. Since = Digium holds the copyright of Asterisk, how
>> am I at = risk?
>>
>> Answer: I have no idea. I do know that = logic and reasoning does not
>> apply where patents are = concerned. Caveat emptor.
>>
>> Question: Asterisk is = an open source project. Doesn't that protect me
>> = somehow?
>>
>> Answer: No. The GPLv2 specifically = states "that any patent must be
>> licensed for everyone's = free use or not licensed at all". There are
>> additional = sections that further explain how patents affect software
>> = licensed under GPLv2; suffice to say that the sections exist to = protect
>> the freedom of the software; not to protect you from = patent trolls.
>>
>> Question: If all of this is true, = why does Google, Mozilla, Xiph.org,
>> and others implement = Opus?
>>
>> Answer: They either have an army of = lawyers, are willing to roll the
>> dice on their future, or = are ignorant of how the patent system works.
>>
>> = Question: This is messed up. If all of this is true, how can we = ever
>> innovate in areas where patents have ever been = filed?
>>
>> Answer: You can't. The system is = broken.
>>
>> Question: What can I do about = it?
>>
>> Answer: Contact your government officials. = Complain. The only way this
>> situation will get fixed is if = the laws are changed. Note that there is
>> at least one bill = being brought up in the U.S. Senate to address these
>> exact = deficiencies in the American patent system (and possibly more = in
>> the House); if you are a U.S. citizen I highly recommend = you contact
>> your elected Senators/Representatives and = express your opinion(s).
>>
>> I hope this helps = everyone understand why we've made our decision. We
>> all hope = that this situation changes in the near future, but until = then,
>> we'll have to limit our support of these codecs in = Asterisk to
>> pass-through only.
>>
>> = Thanks
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> = --
>> Matthew Jordan
>> Digium, Inc. | Engineering = Manager
>> 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - = USA
>> Check us out at: http://digium.com & http://asterisk.org
>>
>
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> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

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-- =
Anthony Minessale II

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