From nobody Mon May 2 17:00:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietf.org Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EF312D698 for ; Mon, 2 May 2016 17:00:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.19.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160503000005.15850.8636.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 17:00:05 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 00:00:05 -0000 Changed milestone "Container format for OPUS codec to IESG as PS ", resolved as "Done", added draft-ietf-codec-oggopus to milestone. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/codec/charter/ From nobody Fri May 27 01:52:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965C412D6C7 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lUqWiwS_U4P for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EBA912D63D for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c189so135059683vkb.1 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MpnR8uFA4ZUsfelOONlE5kgesWb0sUKJ1u+Vq1ZNl8o=; b=beIyp/L/ha5/73oo8HNFdRAs0vo8ud0xhMN4Z4XEdEs7m/Um8uGTPIH30ooG2l/HTC mThGQT8MOQnywn7I0HDdVb7jwF7qj5/W4PLuE0lhr3RwsylqYF1mx0SVqO7pVN68wME2 T/MT7npvo3PfRngDpAxZ155+JEXtn2zBb/flJdxiPK/jWBW1gd+E8C6wiI677Bp5ZROz PfUHCJPYgFzKniL0F54+AlelWu2J1RLTKAsPVIeLZ24JLlzwAOD8PWXBAGrRJgCQEsP2 ZTpKA8lFEcaqQoge7z1o3/7D2HIPgzA9KB17KaLNumZz6Krvo+W99D4hqA0qGtUrenfu S7vQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MpnR8uFA4ZUsfelOONlE5kgesWb0sUKJ1u+Vq1ZNl8o=; b=Qq9bLrFmLh+gDVszrddFG9eED77tW7/CCjp7kU9ftsD9QC8nawaiTvNA9EMrZZAEVO vql97PTDVsJGzN5vjDrgT1SqfvxTcmIuSrEb+aiz0LQrbHl+vtnCf0qEKHii9ceViqF5 75/C33/C3TRnLzhorsOR4NEt7Q1IJ2HG49QRuRj20Px83ptTedaqNL1GypiWROyOhuE/ eO2Rw9GPF9osCEQYLl3tshnL0NMP2vaGn2GQ3Joj9YSjj1NUHlbvdS6TFZtTYUEJ9Ivo qEDZRPahpi97PkabIRCtbgAFtfo3IQi1hX072kpP5Ybxey5gQwGZs+HJURWUn9NoZBVR vhxA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ/N06m+Ck9/4AaHbGmYHJLrKTEp/X6uNFchU5MMIXpD/Oc4gOkMiGpRgiOuABo6by2jG4BmB4uCnuJj/hP X-Received: by 10.31.61.78 with SMTP id k75mr7997939vka.7.1464339125708; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.71.210 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Graczyk Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 01:52:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: codec@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 08:52:08 -0000 Hello, I work at Google on spatial audio, 3D audio for virtual reality. We recently launched spatial audio in 360 videos on Youtube [1] and are currently streaming ambisonics [2] to Android devices on supported platforms. We will launch on more platforms in the near future. We plan to use the Opus codec in an Ogg stream on Youtube. We believe that the robust quality and relatively low complexity of Opus makes the codec well suited for ambisonics and VR in general. In order to ensure consistency in how spatial audio is stored and streamed with Opus, we have written a draft specification for encapsulating ambisonics in an Ogg Opus stream: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics/ We hope that establishing a standard Ogg Opus ambisonics format will help organizations work together and interoperate. I look forward to your thoughts and comments on the draft document. [1] https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6395969?hl=en [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics -- Thanks, Michael Graczyk From nobody Fri May 27 02:02:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C65A12D62B for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 02:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sConb7YiOv4j for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 02:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.l0cal.com (storm.l0cal.com [195.154.242.199]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8ECB12B074 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 02:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by storm.l0cal.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id E531081788; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:02:40 +0200 From: Jean-Baptiste Kempf To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160527090240.GA19903@videolan.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:02:44 -0000 On 27 May, Michael Graczyk wrote : > We plan to use the Opus codec in an Ogg stream on Youtube. We believe That seems a great idea. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics/ How is this mapping related to the mp4 one from google spatial-media: https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rfc.md ? With my kindest regards, -- Jean-Baptiste Kempf http://www.jbkempf.com/ - +33 672 704 734 Sent from my Electronic Device From nobody Fri May 27 10:45:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E5312B043 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9m-RXXyN6uHr for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 10:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx1.scl3.mozilla.com [63.245.214.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D32F12D78E for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 10:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92054C28DD for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:45:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mozilla.org Received: from smtp.mozilla.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rjEOyByExaSE for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:45:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.17.0.84] (50-78-100-113-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.78.100.113]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4EA2AC28EC for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:45:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 10:45:07 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: codec@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:45:17 -0000 Michael Graczyk wrote: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics/ Thanks for presenting this document to the group. With my chair hat on: I think it would be helpful for us to gage the level of interest if people would comment on the list if they think this is something useful for this group to work on. As an individual, I had a few comments on the draft: > The Ogg format is a container for transmission and storage of audio. Ogg is a general purpose container, supporting audio, video, subtitles, etc. (though its most common use in current applications is for audio). I think it may be useful to say that this channel mapping number will also likely impact other formats which use the same channel mapping families, e.g., Maktroska, MP4, MPEG TS. Just adding a sentence to the introduction along the lines of, "This mapping can also be used in other contexts which make use of the channel mappings defined by the Opus Channel Mapping Families registry." > Allowed numbers of channels: (1 + n)^2 for n = 0...14. Explicitly 4, > 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225. For n = 0, (1 + n)^2 == 1, but that's not on your explicit list. Was the intention here to exclude mono as redundant with other channel mapping families? We didn't do that for channel mapping family 1 (since, for example, the presence of an explicit channel mapping table allows you to extract a single channel from an already-encoded coupled stream, which is not possible with channel mapping family 0). But if you did intend to exclude mono, you should explicitly say why, and adjust the range of n. > sqrt((2 - delta(m)) * ((n - m)! / (n + m)!)), I've read the [ambix] reference before, and it still took me a while to figure out what this normalization coefficient is actually referring to. It might be useful to say in more detail what "normalization" even means: is this a factor you are expecting encoders to apply to the audio before encoding? Are you defining what decoders will apply during reconstruction? The coefficient in general seems highly dependent on how you express the spherical harmonic basis functions. E.g., part of this just comes from the Legendre polynomials, which could have simply been expressed by saying to use Legendre polynomials with unit norm (under some norm). It may be better to simply refer to [ambix] Section 2.1, equation (1) for the definition of the spherical harmonics basis functions (the explicit section/equation makes it easy to find), and leave out this equation entirely. Conversely, it would be reasonable to spell out the full equation for those basis functions in this document (to make it more self-contained). But this kind of sits in-between, where it looks like it's trying to say something that you can understand on its own, but in fact it's impossible to interpret outside of the context of that reference (which already says it). > Figure 1: Stereo Downmixing Matrix I doubt this will really cause confusion, but you don't define W and Y. You might want to say they correspond to the first two ambisonics channels, explicitly. > Updates: 7845 (if approved) Does this actually update RFC7845? I think the intent was to allow updates to the channel mapping registry to be done without an explicit update of 7845, since it's possible it might not even be done with an IETF RFC (e.g., if there were some broadcast-specific standard done at a different standards body). From nobody Fri May 27 11:00:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B455612DB38 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r6MitAYyJQ8e for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33A9612DB2B for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id y126so84782203qke.1 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jIrhcfiTz0yket1Fry5Usc54OskErv828rheSG37jmk=; b=QPS8GwqI2RTC467AMtEbpneB8RO2F2M3hm/HdLgw6zZVnhKfUqF9mvYif1aef9c17h +BSeaHgu/fv9Pa0bY7RS4cHEyZvrANsh4BqPTNP1bWAXFcaMVb3lNq5dJFVx87smKTlb 1Ww/+x/BTiFL+2XW7d4QAbkBH3KGyvumtqzSP0ADrDKVkzG3v3JtDly8KwYtZLA4dREC 9pJCikCO83N8CRQX/IAiDLAkKmfiHv3xblVJME1Or2huNCRJCkD0mCkbuYud7s2tLZAV I6ZiNiqjioTUwSEUYVgsinW3GxoKpUlPMLgVRtmqcwQv2jD8sscXCGW7LIDQMCpbQNhh +IpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jIrhcfiTz0yket1Fry5Usc54OskErv828rheSG37jmk=; b=MAUlTqJ3beJBsNDic2mOAjOd9P5o/FKiHwU0umayIxw66yvHdu9+aS77vMPzLZnrWW r2Ny1CK6yjS3j+BsvuMObR03BoDhrthWNEz+Qb62mU72D1R+u2Yk9MVkaUZiLO805LQ8 EuY1K76/inBCzBjphgmVEFqhqCMEs3V7Kw2gA3Mp8wrdvu31+cculYb5C/eHOl1SKCkH +L4JnAVlf3nNHSqQ5obQCtsDKL0hgk8w2OxDcNWDmJAj4iFIiXbpjuKXa0zt3D3QcEix Me9jsAkn3PJSOHOYFd1LsByLlR6GYVJ8QiDngDTXhLtYOTtMyIqjqqrqUOsx0TzyaZGR uZTA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKCAYuFjAiovKSuZdrl6BxS2nDNKxJslhyxmIesacYfp4TioeWYuf3GK2XK6cN3ZLv6 X-Received: by 10.55.197.221 with SMTP id k90mr6934849qkl.89.1464372021170; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panoramix.jmvalin.ca (modemcable017.46-176-173.mc.videotron.ca. [173.176.46.17]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w48sm2883559qgd.42.2016.05.27.11.00.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 27 May 2016 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" , codec@ietf.org References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> From: Jean-Marc Valin X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <57488B33.6010201@mozilla.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:00:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:00:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 05/27/2016 01:45 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > With my chair hat on: I think it would be helpful for us to gage > the level of interest if people would comment on the list if they > think this is something useful for this group to work on. I support this work. I believe it is useful and am willing to do reviews and also contribute directly if necessary. > For n = 0, (1 + n)^2 == 1, but that's not on your explicit list. > Was the intention here to exclude mono as redundant with other > channel mapping families? We didn't do that for channel mapping > family 1 (since, for example, the presence of an explicit channel > mapping table allows you to extract a single channel from an > already-encoded coupled stream, which is not possible with channel > mapping family 0). But if you did intend to exclude mono, you > should explicitly say why, and adjust the range of n. I personally don't think 1-channel ambisonics should be allowed (unless there's a good reason I missed). We might want to say that encoders MUST NOT create them, but decoders SHOULD handle them as if they were regular mono files. >> Updates: 7845 (if approved) > > Does this actually update RFC7845? I think the intent was to allow > updates to the channel mapping registry to be done without an > explicit update of 7845, since it's possible it might not even be > done with an IETF RFC (e.g., if there were some broadcast-specific > standard done at a different standards body). I agree, I'm pretty sure we don't want the "Updates: 7845" line. Cheers, Jean-Marc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXSIswAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9aUcIAJjr+jYS++C9mxPKbUV0oVgg Ahce4hi02bW4Fiopqdk4A4h2SRwO1oWDlH2TUiDHspcx/BhYxuru41rqRRcfd6Em pe75f3jwyVCRtlsqfHIDZOcECei1uSPuowa1rqv0sB1zu4wzgr/n/ikpM+YwVEiK mBFLIHQNMfo88n9xYhwFPAB3g8ystNKpgi7mzvp9Nm2kMYXe/She+06PwGm+HiqJ HNaWWqLUXxMFRNMy2R3ToCYhW+JlpQEdgy+v9fhF+0fN1R36BZP1EUZUIe+Q1Jzk 1fhTPF2fFD6SWOCEOgDaPvjgrXryauWKKysz/BGrIYOIg1zYbqPFqXPsKO4Fj1Y= =dFEK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 27 11:02:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159D012DB3B for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e50977gVLkn9 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.l0cal.com (storm.l0cal.com [195.154.242.199]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092D912D791 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by storm.l0cal.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 5480C81788; Fri, 27 May 2016 20:02:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:02:31 +0200 From: Jean-Baptiste Kempf To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" Message-ID: <20160527180231.GA9184@videolan.org> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:02:34 -0000 On 27 May, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote : > With my chair hat on: I think it would be helpful for us to gage the level > of interest if people would comment on the list if they think this is > something useful for this group to work on. I believe this work is useful and I'm interested in the outcome. With my kindest regards, -- Jean-Baptiste Kempf http://www.jbkempf.com/ - +33 672 704 734 Sent from my Electronic Device From nobody Fri May 27 12:56:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A1612D625 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HyrY77WueBBJ for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F5612D0AB for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 190so78455166iow.1 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=nkwRiGBLxqQ31zlCQFBFtVrGHtg7Djt7x2BMzSvUc/M=; b=Y/x+YN3KNdxVaXzIo2t8rvVlKpMseOAk8I6C/PDAoGtNg+4tTBYHUQLrsHTmU61qBj +i5szm46hSCejjk5Oelfz0m1zyYbbHM7Q9MJyPq/4/iNzQi9xI5F07BivFXHNJukgZsk N+kLpFlp01QbcYEHYjnBasjDUcQzbg/Ezrbfd3f3aQFCakAbbe1eg2VJ7L7ZClZd/o5C TyfE9p246d8fg0SB2E0dFb+obRzUnSgCDUM/PPOoxI3roPSUvQZ2IQDcZN3aygteyNKP iZEMBzosUOuiU2o4eNVkGDEOIliagfD9R7Sh2DLWHHFcg6uaDMTEJt/aUGSBy+pfa3qq bfiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=nkwRiGBLxqQ31zlCQFBFtVrGHtg7Djt7x2BMzSvUc/M=; b=jYk8NWjvSCDIIESVGwBagcCv4ZepKmoNSy/y8vwwNqjGmsX/MgtunQ0xqirK/OYzwW vfiKHFS+Vp3Qwo+vY0K8w06n5j0s1C3MCnssMywLyLzmFqKsowF2YwuPZ7s3N2slpfXa 8lJ6Za4FBVzfSyMzSKcwJJGcGTBZYUKhyvny5KpoAwnWdaMQxnvHOjRvGd9ig4ZMgcYg d8gaao9DWAMZVU7SwX7sTzby5nZsZszPKrZ6WVPxySTNpolsCMhRune0weMPi2Z0htRY pTZAlbvDBktMt8VBobIg0KO3W818kMeHeIe4gIeODffTBsS0nB6JXc2yUkDc1kbrOLHW ruqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKxlpaLSesusqilqHmq9+viqw6zjtyjCrk66G4byq736Hodf2Il56gtyjwX4MUBxeXHqLbuv6FDHkISig== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.152.82 with SMTP id a79mr14473476ioe.46.1464378959434; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.11.164 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2016 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:55:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: Monty Montgomery To: Michael Graczyk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:56:03 -0000 I also fully support this Ambisonics work, and am very happy with the progress progress thusfar. There'd been interest in Ambisonics in Vorbis for a long time (more than 15 years at this point), but there hadn't been a group that was qualified in practical Ambisonics, motivated to do the work, and had the time resources available for a long-term investment. It's natural this interest would move forward to Opus, and I'm glad to see it finally sink root. Cheers, Monty On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:52 AM, Michael Graczyk wrote: > Hello, > > I work at Google on spatial audio, 3D audio for virtual reality. We > recently launched spatial audio in 360 videos on Youtube [1] and are > currently streaming ambisonics [2] to Android devices on supported > platforms. We will launch on more platforms in the near future. > > We plan to use the Opus codec in an Ogg stream on Youtube. We believe > that the robust quality and relatively low complexity of Opus makes > the codec well suited for ambisonics and VR in general. In order to > ensure consistency in how spatial audio is stored and streamed with > Opus, we have written a draft specification for encapsulating > ambisonics in an Ogg Opus stream: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics/ > > We hope that establishing a standard Ogg Opus ambisonics format will > help organizations work together and interoperate. I look forward to > your thoughts and comments on the draft document. > > [1] https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6395969?hl=en > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics > > -- > > Thanks, > Michael Graczyk > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From nobody Fri May 27 13:27:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134C412D0AA for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 13:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iko-ZG715fPm for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 13:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de (vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:523:eb55::]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3DB212D73D for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 13:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:8070:8182:dc01:f4cc:d5f5:c781:518c] (helo=samsung7); authenticated by vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1b6OLy-0000e3-Qi; Fri, 27 May 2016 22:27:31 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: "'Jean-Baptiste Kempf'" , "'Timothy B. Terriberry'" References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <20160527180231.GA9184@videolan.org> In-Reply-To: <20160527180231.GA9184@videolan.org> Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:27:28 +0200 Message-ID: <018401d1b856$3128c9f0$937a5dd0$@symonics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHzqM99V2gov91PqMpA5jAeL+NE1QJ/6nZZAePdx72fZjx4EA== Content-Language: de X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; christian.hoene@symonics.com; 1464380854; eddc14f6; Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:27:39 -0000 +1 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: codec [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Jean-Baptiste Kempf Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Mai 2016 20:03 An: Timothy B. Terriberry Cc: codec@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container On 27 May, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote : > With my chair hat on: I think it would be helpful for us to gage the=20 > level of interest if people would comment on the list if they think=20 > this is something useful for this group to work on. I believe this work is useful and I'm interested in the outcome. With my kindest regards, -- Jean-Baptiste Kempf http://www.jbkempf.com/ - +33 672 704 734 Sent from my Electronic Device _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec From nobody Fri May 27 17:16:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283EE12D1D3 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yf2z6IyE6QA6 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22b.google.com (mail-vk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C17F412D126 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d127so2779223vkh.2 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WsNdvvVMR7H01KNvcI4X2HbGk4PADCOs7Bk2vk46Yi8=; b=alEu0q3IYlGsp8g4fmUC1hnfE/42VstMHOxxIIcJsk45iYAgiEunbqHklOHxL4+txn rvtZ+u7NFc48OL+obYWYxKC0SJP5uuSwK759SI4JB7VavahPaDc08n4Dmx/WmF/jdp7n oEjS76BPOjMzAhlWvwWH6FE39R1hLGR51Oz4hK4icwJPJDq3gOUtd+kWt2lXHbR6lR58 n+utMPlYx5rpbXV3XiSzsbEdvWAj7YhNDYCmzPC7gTvRlPTdUhi9TPjzm0JGw8FzgXL4 d8E/tcm58/5URSQC7vzYqTNgIV/515bPIvcRTJxuYiQCeXvR7rbeJWY5cDWr15irez8k KjTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WsNdvvVMR7H01KNvcI4X2HbGk4PADCOs7Bk2vk46Yi8=; b=kcgZmPl+SRWQETQwLdr59I3qFjEiCLtbGOUDkNGehPM3gXKiyLoEMQKaNkGfRbv7Gw AltPp0gXVIOKhk+AxeAwjuLXvTCkwqpUyrG7ZdhYBIOo7MhiHMbEyqIsvl0tu/S38yQ8 yyVZ3eomwEzhKiYLWStvXTO5NQ+gTiU1CdsD5r6AC2I+PXR2skTjvWMwtC19DzKQGaOP sgSwlOUmUghCpWbH0Reu6Qne+HNH1khiZz0/oxlF+XN3IvYeaWgLDJSa3nmy68xkDaSf D/SmsjhUc7dLrqn/6j3FtABT6psB2sRBBBaodDHbd5JNBkLe/+0n4YhuVpWHjD+akVME 4I1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKa9dPm8BhSaynyn/W2+GsOb7kpj/iS8PJpVrNwngGUcSMpx8q+pZS/bxFoIHrTTzVSKuiPciSQn7SO19CI X-Received: by 10.31.67.14 with SMTP id q14mr10025115vka.38.1464394600548; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.71.210 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> From: Michael Graczyk Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:16:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" , jb@videolan.org, jmvalin@mozilla.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 00:16:46 -0000 Thanks Jean-Baptise, Tim, and Jean-Marc for your questions and comments. Also thanks for all the support! I've replied inline. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrot= e: > How is this mapping related to the mp4 one from google spatial-media: > https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rf= c.md The RFC that you linked to described a metadata box for spatial audio (SA3D). This metadata is specific to mp4. We do not currently plan to encapsulate Opus in mp4, but may be interested in the future if the encapsulation described here becomes more widely supported: wiki.xiph.org/Mp4Opus. Since we have no plans to encapsulate Opus in mp4, I have been operating under the assumption that all ambisonic metadata should be contained in the Ogg stream itself (in this case implicitly by defining only one channel ordering and normalization). On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > Ogg is a general purpose container, supporting audio, video, subtitles, e= tc. (though its most common use in current applications is for audio). I reworded this to say "Ogg is a general purpose container, supporting audio, video, and other med= ia. It can be used to encapsulate audio streams coded using the Opus codec" > I think it may be useful to say that this channel mapping number will als= o likely impact other formats which use the same channel mapping families, = e.g., Maktroska, MP4, MPEG TS. Just adding a sentence to the introduction a= long the lines of, "This mapping can also be used in other contexts which m= ake use of the channel mappings defined by the Opus Channel Mapping Familie= s registry." Great, added. BTW, when either Maktroska or WebM is used to encapsulate opus, the entire Ogg container is wrapped, including the OpusHead header. > For n =3D 0, (1 + n)^2 =3D=3D 1, but that's not on your explicit list. Wa= s the intention here ... I would like to include mono to minimize the number of special cases that decoders have to deal with. For example, if a virtual reality playback environment expects to always receive ambisonics with mapping family 2, the encoder could simply send single channel, n=3D0 ambisonics when spatial audio is unavailable. I corrected the explicit list: "Explicitly 1, 4...". > I've read the [ambix] reference before, and it still took me a while to f= igure out what this normalization coefficient is actually referring to. ...= The coefficient in general seems highly dependent on how you express the s= pherical harmonic basis functions... Yes, unfortunately the interpretation of "normalization" depends on how you define the spherical harmonic functions. I expect that Opus encoders and decoders would not need to apply this normalization, but the normalization is part of the semantic meaning of the audio stream. For example, if the decoder is passing it's decoded stream along to an ambisonic player which expects PCM with SN3D normalization, then the decoder does not need to deal with the exact definition of "SN3D". On the other hand, if the ambisonic player does not support SN3D playback, an intermediate scaling step would be necessary. I do not want to require the Opus decoder to perform this scaling, but I want the Ogg stream to carry enough metadata (implicitly in this case) to make it clear when and what scaling must be done. > It may be better to simply refer to [ambix] Section 2.1, equation (1) for= the definition of the spherical harmonics basis functions (the explicit se= ction/equation makes it easy to find), and leave out this equation entirely= . I agree, that would be more clear. > Conversely, it would be reasonable to spell out the full equation for tho= se basis functions in this document (to make it more self-contained). But t= his kind of sits in-between, where it looks like it's trying to say somethi= ng that you can understand on its own, but in fact it's impossible to inter= pret outside of the context of that reference (which already says it). I agree. I do not think it would be worthwhile to include a self-contained description of ambisonics, because the interpretation of the encoded data is fairly complicated and depends on the playback environment. I removed this equation and referenced the section in [ambix] instead. > I doubt this will really cause confusion, but you don't define W and Y. Y= ou might want to say they correspond to the first two ambisonics channels, = explicitly. I added a definition in the paragraph above. > Does this actually update RFC7845?... Great, I removed the "updates" attribute from the rfc tag. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jean-Marc Valin wro= te: > I personally don't think 1-channel ambisonics should be allowed > (unless there's a good reason I missed). We might want to say that > encoders MUST NOT create them, but decoders SHOULD handle them as if > they were regular mono files. As I described above, I believe there is a good reason to support 1-channel ambisonics. The playback of ambisonics from an Ogg stream can be simplified if the playback system always receives ambisonics with channel mapping family 2. With 1-channel ambisonics, this simplification exists even when the streamed data originally had no spatial content. > I agree, I'm pretty sure we don't want the "Updates: 7845" line. Great, removed. Question for anyone: Do I submit an -01 draft with the changes mentioned above, or do I send out an intermediate draft on this list? --=20 Thanks, Michael Graczyk From nobody Fri May 27 17:19:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B0D12D1D3 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKQgMR8V59jw for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x232.google.com (mail-qg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1ECA12D0CF for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id q32so57873255qgq.3 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+Krt1vjke5EKGgfKe8ioPFXongmmHBtyOXlvZWX15Uo=; b=bq5WcNhl5Pulz6UT7HZzWCnoR1T0Gg36ORHlQpEDyoC/P7lrnUyiQQZ7cOrTN0Ycny mqAnDmjiwY4v2OgbukWeVlVUTHtTZSch6xhYlgMdVGPKIu8yvfk5xf+WelwfTkOulT5V HPq+LJRJWiG4QZoyipdb6dxreB4id42O2aWlX7bMMYb9JyTTVz/qms16bTFfavp6zwPy sy/1r9lKQ99NF8r2ljtyb5judKZLiSupC2v/Dod2ZPkDCDkplp/EHdXCMZBNrAvbxghu 1Yywm/CXRDHjoAq+kfG1Q4kJRMGY0mMyYHkDGkhIA6k0qpzj+9BgvmlxvG84kLy6604A DmWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+Krt1vjke5EKGgfKe8ioPFXongmmHBtyOXlvZWX15Uo=; b=AQgKA2QGkwNAs+qm9RsGGWa/hoCcE3TaP9kLWGHT1lP7UC0Tobn3AqvJkKEZ8dwHU3 ifqoZL3fdS/2UR8prFlSs7ETVaZjexiQ8WI8dYnHI8t1Wa+x9/rdLK1QH0XRrsTSh7OC BYpMIvtRM0wrkQBnyPH4Boi2ojY1doObthHTWB0SGtFADHXzIjaCF8O49hDVKV8BLsrd ebhVgLzYtWqIft3Ka+uEC2sL6AiRnOIJ/CLFCsczV8Uw9x05aaB+NWXVmbXikyG/ny8W XNFZWEnxiRt8rOm5G5ioY9NHoBUB6J8GFRo8kAmZHGKykG62R1yBVigOdIuFGKj0sC61 Cgdg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKGUWXsHp1KsvFS5eqohSsihQmpEWwwTvqmjiypvgZWAjEQNPH1kfY1gPd+YFI2Va0A X-Received: by 10.140.29.9 with SMTP id a9mr15717698qga.37.1464394775758; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panoramix.jmvalin.ca (modemcable017.46-176-173.mc.videotron.ca. [173.176.46.17]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o128sm5985991qkb.40.2016.05.27.17.19.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 27 May 2016 17:19:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Graczyk , "Timothy B. Terriberry" , jb@videolan.org References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> From: Jean-Marc Valin Message-ID: <5748E416.40609@mozilla.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:19:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 00:19:40 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 > Question for anyone: Do I submit an -01 draft with the changes > mentioned above, or do I send out an intermediate draft on this list? Just submit a -01 version -- versions are cheap :-) Jean-Marc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXSOQTAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9Mt0H/2MhSs62thQQcrpDlZdrOAVQ IR2COHmgWJ0VNTP/x6N29plPbg85UbnAM1OI/Qpn8sfhB3pDYYGyW2NFDsavVDSw hrCUYBTkJTfuOTaYOKjw7t9ffDFtoaWzbZmAQIPKkE+vEy0P6iSXHgHSOzLaL49r 2VGG/UT6ZZw46xnioxs7RtN64lYf5NS6/hau1o6lcUMMQ1B4u3v+NfGnHRlThT+m cLgaj/lO6+fo2AyHb+M+KD4ftHefTHekaTDw3uINPQd61O71H+Aaym3sXSf5zLEv xDobBcQJo+EoqG85FKZS7E/XqGOojHNy9eO6vdKXBE9i2yFsoXnj5nS6il2XtTs= =EmLd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 27 17:29:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C5F12D1D3 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4CX2MqcWQP7 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33A5212D1DA for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id d127so2989580vkh.2 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AzFOdWbIfxcGVZltj98GI7XTZxCRKWZBXVmnfs4uOR8=; b=aym95N8Sz5IH4JbMQw8UvZyC+AGLZ3IqHRfD9sJgCANsUYY43k6CM8Q0h2HXfwZFUs OyozUn4iuHZCjtU4ZE4Ip2s0n6qs+kvFQQ3FNT4SH1lRytjr0ITe8rvDkQGNB4ADiLGL 1MZ0WIDgb7O+y2NXIxzjobkRcp9RO5IsxdvzXT5tEjXZLBjzST6jsQ9xPw4ICECnfF2J cRKxLNFDlO7df0zWslrDmULDsSpcUoCwnoT1hw20oTRTZBg2sQ1ndehzx6ieYJFMUCAN A9hSIxaW1IK9EH1pdHmwhB+wMd9R4IgBNPzBxybNh02jLnQO2Df2AbjSw9pkc/Eylfe0 DBIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AzFOdWbIfxcGVZltj98GI7XTZxCRKWZBXVmnfs4uOR8=; b=mfyhN87QEh4pMR8JwbOMg0ag5ZaaaYHuhAMQa4t1FlAKUTxB/zs7d+1RlG2/YPFlTc hwD/BIvB8MVIwTr/8/bIM1Qxcm1jAyp1dXeM9OgBFot7lJlZMwDwDltgatQ3pyErvE4A bEFx17lQgIPiXgy5DjctC44QK07aQCMEYNzC2S5n/Wx/EX7U1wLnoIqh0OMmGu/XagIR taVt6GZ6fO4Cjsk0vS8B5ngOxlaF8srHlhG2ZLjscJKl9nGy0UTe01OIQb/4x6MOfKzp c63Wsp9igkc9XOM+de6kNGy5MK9P4WDiy1aH/5CYKIVzzmt1KyeWGZowbtTAgDtVIABI Cs1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKJxBiWbhShag9Vgm97OMLdIXirkKRqTAQdW2HIg5MHC9Bwy1mL2nwGDHp37woJ+5XuZkKAjhwG6oPraLIu X-Received: by 10.31.235.198 with SMTP id j189mr10000153vkh.153.1464395356238; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.71.210 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5748E416.40609@mozilla.com> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <5748E416.40609@mozilla.com> From: Michael Graczyk Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:29:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jean-Marc Valin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 00:29:18 -0000 Great, I've uploaded a revised draft which can be viewed here. https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics-01.txt From nobody Sat May 28 01:47:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BC112D0F7 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 01:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NCR2SdBLGLFG for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 01:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.l0cal.com (storm.l0cal.com [195.154.242.199]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7492A12D0B9 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 01:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by storm.l0cal.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4993B81787; Sat, 28 May 2016 10:47:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 10:47:43 +0200 From: Jean-Baptiste Kempf To: Michael Graczyk Message-ID: <20160528084743.GB12705@videolan.org> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 08:47:49 -0000 On 27 May, Michael Graczyk wrote : > The RFC that you linked to described a metadata box for spatial audio > (SA3D). This metadata is specific to mp4. We do not currently plan to > encapsulate Opus in mp4, but may be interested in the future if the > encapsulation described here becomes more widely supported: > wiki.xiph.org/Mp4Opus. Sorry, what I meant is that it would be nice that the info from this RFC carries the same kind of information than SA3D, so that a player like VLC only need to have one identical filter to process them, post decoder. With my kindest regards, -- Jean-Baptiste Kempf http://www.jbkempf.com/ - +33 672 704 734 Sent from my Electronic Device From nobody Sat May 28 02:58:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326A412D608 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 02:58:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5xXZS96niHn9 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 02:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E223112D5EB for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 02:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp14-2-29-189.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO mailservice.shelbyville.oz) ([14.2.29.189]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 28 May 2016 19:28:02 +0930 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFA1FFD68 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:28:01 +0930 (ACST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailservice.shelbyville.oz Received: from mailservice.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailservice.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WUr2iKdVrXFj for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:27:59 +0930 (ACST) Received: from hex.shelbyville.oz (hex.shelbyville.oz [192.168.1.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90F36FF91A for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:27:59 +0930 (ACST) Received: by hex.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E27E80470; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:27:59 +0930 (ACST) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:27:59 +0930 From: Ron To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160528095759.GE24748@hex.shelbyville.oz> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:58:05 -0000 On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:45:07AM -0700, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > Michael Graczyk wrote: > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics/ > > Thanks for presenting this document to the group. > > With my chair hat on: I think it would be helpful for us to gage the level > of interest if people would comment on the list if they think this is > something useful for this group to work on. I agree that defining this is in scope for this group and it would be a valuable thing for us to pursue here. Anticipation of this sort of work was exactly why we added the channel mapping to RFC 7845. It's good to see this sort of interest in it so soon after that was published, and to have people with relevant expertise now wanting to contribute that here. I support proceeding with this under the umbrella of this group. From nobody Sat May 28 22:35:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A3E12D116 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k8oP87QznV_Q for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22c.google.com (mail-yw0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6141912B03D for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id x189so139158555ywe.3 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to; bh=HYUOHySohX/oCBShqI0xy5VOmE6KWmxY3q1A4W3y/s8=; b=wOdZlgJzk+A2DW6y4pkvIeTu+Osb84bhigrMW7GuWeVrH3HIDrkrrHyyUTjqCgkZJX PFiNbWDPaJhampt6Tg/ssGaDEfbcu+Lyy14pFLWotUL8mBI7MT7br7hGDeHE/Z3NCFjH 6FcsydcM5qutDx2ySjk9Ux3JX+yDBQUz9XMZ47s7bTbyuhO9o5TLE5ZWMXl5J84+tmXI 9K51ZEYsuBQCSrxZ50cKPNy9ZTJrmov56KB7dCM4/TsQwrPV2rZnOyyuhJi/zzejwJwi pTnn742EVOXPgm6BNVjYnH8vlAGAqkpmzR204pIdJsB+kecMDBJof898ZSrYo+8QSpJi btzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=HYUOHySohX/oCBShqI0xy5VOmE6KWmxY3q1A4W3y/s8=; b=M5d3PkDbrRBoeKXrt+SZ4CE/tgBubFp3IK9bOP4OPr6i84Qux0OYajvJFrGEtYBMRw iBWm2axMF36jFVJ+zA4cVB2jYp41D3uhsRF9UT9LvUsX2/y7mAvQ1MuQ3hE/qYBtbnpg /6k7MNAhNwTQZqoUcZRd99aj4z9iyyt27P4cJB23YlPRbOOgPA+DiVk9JqU+GmyW4U80 a9lAWap9fImqb9kV9hjBeSfAd4eXFqn2j751Xx0XAB6Xu0LL26i5tQ6A4rE3cmf1dwlb VThNX3AnFUDSDlIJzd9jtLpUiW2Raxl8xPOo7I1K+0xm9K9ICN8mUjMzTohBR3Wj8DBT M3cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJTr4w7DzBPUi/EwxUEdy2h6+mU1mucJ+2uGUFLSUkJg7uqSov4O/b9RNVAv19WhhbjpMoeqCWi6ub7DA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.107.138 with SMTP id g132mr3487872ywc.74.1464500142603; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: markh.sj@gmail.com Received: by 10.129.88.133 with HTTP; Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:42 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: etxYRSGJGC6YXyS8FNqQTw0Uk9o Message-ID: From: Mark Harris To: "codec@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 05:35:45 -0000 I support this work. In section 3.2 perhaps it should be clarified that the first ambisonic channel (W) may be used directly for mono playback, particularly if streams with channel mapping family 2 might only have one channel. Also there is a typo "definied" in section 4. - Mark From nobody Sun May 29 07:43:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1288C12B076 for ; Sun, 29 May 2016 07:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PebGQ7E0jFcm for ; Sun, 29 May 2016 07:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1D5112B031 for ; Sun, 29 May 2016 07:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BxBgA731xV/zmCCkxcgxCBMss2AoE8PRABAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAwE6HBYKCAsLISUPEhgeGYgXAwoIyh8NhHcBAQgCIIs6gk2CPxaEFwEEmW2CLYFVkBmFN4FFI4IKHIFuIjGCRwEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A0BxBgA731xV/zmCCkxcgxCBMss2AoE8PRABAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAwE6HBYKCAsLISUPEhgeGYgXAwoIyh8NhHcBAQgCIIs6gk2CPxaEFwEEmW2CLYFVkBmFN4FFI4IKHIFuIjGCRwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,465,1427774400"; d="scan'208";a="239857012" Received: from 76-10-130-57.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO mail.hacklava.net) ([76.10.130.57]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 29 May 2016 10:43:04 -0400 Received: from telecino (unknown [192.168.1.23]) by mail.hacklava.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E6AC5582 for ; Sun, 29 May 2016 10:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:42:33 -0400 From: Marc =?UTF-8?B?TGF2YWxsw6ll?= To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> In-Reply-To: References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.3 (GTK+ 2.24.23; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 14:43:11 -0000 On Sat, 28 May 2016 22:35:42 -0700, Mark Harris wrote: > I support this work. I also support this work, with enthusiasm (that's why I registered to the codec list). I tried Opus for "ambisonics on the web" more than a year ago, to experiment with online binaural decoding. It worked very well, but I had to modify the encoder to uncouple channels, and I finally chose AAC for compatibility reasons. It's about time that Opus becomes widely adopted and supported as a standard, especially for multi-channel streams. Maybe the situation is better now, as browsers matured (to be verified). I would suggest to not include decoding of Ambisonics streams in the Opus decoders. Exceptions would be decoding/down-mixing to mono and stereo, as defaults for compatibility reasons, but in a carefully unobtrusive way; users of Opus for Ambisonics should easily have access to all channels, even if the Opus decoder (and the system) wants to "help" them. Even mono and stereo are special cases in Ambisonics; one of the most popular usage of Ambisonics is to explore the soundfield with virtual directional microphones, something that could be used to explore so-called "360 videos" with desktop speakers (without dedicated "VR" gears). Support for mixed-order is important too, mostly for horizontal-only Ambisonics streams, because horizontal-only surround is still dominant, and also because humans have more "spatial resolution" on the horizontal plane; therefore, providing low vertical resolution is acceptable in many playback situations; for example: 6 channels supports horizontal at 2nd order and vertical at 1th order. I think that what's only required is channel uncoupling and metadata about the Ambisonics stream; everything else should be the responsibility of the Ambisonics encoders and decoders. Normalisation is not the responsibility of a codec. It is used for Ambisonics format conversion (ex: A to B, FuMa to Ambix). That said, gain factors could be included to maximize dynamics, but it is unrelated to Ambisonics. Opus for Ambisonics, as a standard for the distribution of compressed "VR audio", would be excellent. -- Marc From nobody Tue May 31 11:38:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F4612D5A1 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4spp4k3M7vZD for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBC6912D562 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id r140so273798188vkf.0 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=goG907cjF9tYEZX39rxX2mCr3ln44aY63UGmAMFGsZQ=; b=oTw2WW9GStgYH3pxGT3D3WRfzC7vNyMIQuJNfC+hylImSjdGPpppvuKZKvKODsQwhs GgWF6VCz6C1RBa8qJlihnY5Ul2CLHKa+N2gboN/yXN2+3yYAW/TrV32AbTt5ZIQ1r3fp NFGVhqbM4seJIm432Z3xomh2oKCgBO3oeMaNpm3ciEq2E7Y6n5EMuJjhTw6Nx3+15gs3 pVr65W+c6OUrU4mEhNB3F410cRrl/9NFSQtg4bHgALdDfl8+aAqmkjqn5qLkTIX8/vWd ed3yWbCisYyEMg8PXIg/yrEqwHT0UP5LrXPy2TfjKkCpXzsE+ivFmfJHopPWfs7wgqqg kXnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=goG907cjF9tYEZX39rxX2mCr3ln44aY63UGmAMFGsZQ=; b=L+cbnwolYmgua6T5yB9ap8gL7MKUmPRiX81sbCZyrCM85qUamuf869Nj1SKXJG8xa9 +RAr5+UFOt9/ydpA2UdEbJqh7AuDmVbTcSrNvHvRu8HzttFQYkHFryBnCtTQOoip0Pha 8nuXwVZe8BUWZ+5gS9KiL2URpGBMAnPFwc4kQavCev4kXTlTgkFH2JOGlDi3BF4y/YoJ wermI5Ren+JZaFhFH4Mb+BrNl36IFa12E2Ppyxa6+0EjP3zUXWKs5TA34dAE9Pc+0EHI 1bC1tZkcyYT57Oqy82tjLOvkrIHlhgYboU4d6y5KReiVa68qDQAbIqlnvrYQOfQZp2ch RTWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJUKDb2ejy/BqwAJDm8xt+s62avgMfrw8uQpvCK3BmXrw7Yxr/tvacScxKYQfwotZL8h6fQ4Rtkw+DVOGKC X-Received: by 10.159.41.167 with SMTP id s36mr13629300uas.109.1464719917802; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.71.210 with HTTP; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> From: Michael Graczyk Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Marc_Lavall=C3=A9e?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 18:38:41 -0000 Thanks Jean-Baptiste, Mark, and Marc for your comments. Also thank you Ron for your support. On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 1:47 AM, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrot= e: > Sorry, what I meant is that it would be nice that the info from this RFC > carries the same kind of information than SA3D, so that a player like > VLC only need to have one identical filter to process them, post > decoder. In lieu of the SA3D box's explicit metadata, this draft requires that the ambisonic streams use ACN channel ordering and SN3D normalization. The channel count and channel mapping are contained in the Ogg identification header. I believe the only thing missing here is the SA3D box's "ambisonic_type" field. I would like to require periphonic (full 3D) ambisonics in this draft. I added the word "periphonic" to section 3.1. On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Mark Harris wrote: > In section 3.2 perhaps it should be clarified that the first ambisonic > channel (W) may be used directly for mono playback, particularly if > streams with channel mapping family 2 might only have one channel. I added a short paragraph to the end of 3.2. What do you think? > Also there is a typo "definied" in section 4. Thanks, fixed On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Marc Lavall=C3=A9e wro= te: > I would suggest to not include decoding of Ambisonics streams in the > Opus decoders. Exceptions would be decoding/down-mixing to mono > and stereo, as defaults for compatibility reasons, but in a carefully > unobtrusive way; users of Opus for Ambisonics should easily have access > to all channels, even if the Opus decoder (and the system) wants to > "help" them. Right. I do not want to include ambisonic decoding in the Opus decoder. I reworded section 3.2 to make it clear that downmixing MAY be done by Ogg Opus players, not decoders. > Support for mixed-order is important too, mostly for horizontal-only ... The draft allows users to send mixed-order ambisonics > Normalisation is not the responsibility of a codec. It is used for > Ambisonics format conversion (ex: A to B, FuMa to Ambix). That said, > gain factors could be included to maximize dynamics, but it is > unrelated to Ambisonics. Right. Just to be clear, the Opus encoder and decoder do not do the normalization, nor do they _need_ to know anything about it. The encoder could perform masking computations that require knowledge of the normalization, but the main purpose of including it in this draft is to give Opus ambisonc streams an unambiguous semantic meaning. When an Ogg Opus ambisonic player receives a stream with channel mapping 2, that player needs to know the normalization. As written, this draft promises that the stream would be SN3D normalized. From nobody Tue May 31 11:56:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7745B12D151 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5QJjt6eof10 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CF0612D14B for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 11:56:27 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BtBgA731xV/zmCCkxcgxCBMsNlh1ECgTw6EwEBAQEBAQGBCoQjAQEDATocIwULCw4TJQ8qHgYTiCQIzyMBAQEBAQUCAR+LOoUFB4QtAQSZbYQClVCBRSOEFFOCRwEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A0BtBgA731xV/zmCCkxcgxCBMsNlh1ECgTw6EwEBAQEBAQGBCoQjAQEDATocIwULCw4TJQ8qHgYTiCQIzyMBAQEBAQUCAR+LOoUFB4QtAQSZbYQClVCBRSOEFFOCRwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,465,1427774400"; d="scan'208";a="240070950" Received: from 76-10-130-57.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO mail.hacklava.net) ([76.10.130.57]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 31 May 2016 14:56:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (modemcable038.171-70-69.static.videotron.ca [69.70.171.38]) (Authenticated sender: marc@hacklava.net) by mail.hacklava.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8DBF96B2B; Tue, 31 May 2016 14:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:54:55 -0400 From: Marc Lavallee To: Michael Graczyk Message-ID: <20160531145455.000005a4@hacklava.net> In-Reply-To: References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.13.2 (GTK+ 2.24.28; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 18:56:31 -0000 On Tue, 31 May 2016 11:38:37 -0700 Michael Graczyk wrote: > In lieu of the SA3D box's explicit metadata, this draft requires that > the ambisonic streams use ACN channel ordering and SN3D normalization. > The channel count and channel mapping are contained in the Ogg > identification header. I believe the only thing missing here is the > SA3D box's "ambisonic_type" field. I would like to require periphonic > (full 3D) ambisonics in this draft. I added the word "periphonic" to > section 3.1. The "ambisonic_type" (as defined in the spatial audio RFC) now only allows 0 for "periphonic". Other values could be added, like 1 for "mixed-order", 2 for "horizontal" and 3 for "UHJ". -- Marc From nobody Tue May 31 12:10:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6FE12B014 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 12:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdI1kIIvvt5J for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx1.scl3.mozilla.com [63.245.214.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A844712D638 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45977C1484 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 19:10:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mozilla.org Received: from smtp.mozilla.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQtmkLNuCTCx for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 19:10:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.252.25.214] (corp.mtv2.mozilla.com [63.245.221.32]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21ED2C1041 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 19:10:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <574DE199.5020708@xiph.org> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:10:17 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: codec@ietf.org References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:10:25 -0000 Michael Graczyk wrote: > identification header. I believe the only thing missing here is the > SA3D box's "ambisonic_type" field. I would like to require periphonic It seems like there's also no way to specify that an audio track is "non diegetic" (i.e., should not be changed by a user's head rotation in VR settings, e.g., for narration, etc.). From nobody Tue May 31 22:53:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F8E12D11C for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sg_j8OfT8JRB for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22e.google.com (mail-yw0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7834A12B02D for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id h19so9096785ywc.0 for ; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to; bh=U9GOaFN3HVuVZDpOL6nCfpBc6sMLDtVgxOktd+bfje4=; b=tq/r24i1XrMAw8uh/nxMqS7C0/Lks5yKr9qtLD0P3Mzl/7pTtN/MHwUMSwH6Bj7jtJ CZn2lrnshvvI1IXcwIjLBXD9wAWgwXWqD2G5Ab3tEtnJBrs3cvqzhw95rxO3NziQUXqr EPkDPcy8am25BJT9jTqcA3HevfagOyFHk2arnN3+TCxziRllG43vvL0vpOri05btGSNr s/v+nOKSQeKv1KMQ04laEQhpdfZ+4lv+ppf2tqib2o9uSSH9NhM6Jm0YOiTGKR/lV0mE S5OY3TQaWkURlffBJGop4XESJH4NIrCNGbrYkCaspozS7yQx0kKgyzOuo9S99vkZ7Js1 YKmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=U9GOaFN3HVuVZDpOL6nCfpBc6sMLDtVgxOktd+bfje4=; b=R/G2awvf8iuxR8oKMgbf7LtdIFAzDoEow6SWk/ObJijxa8rMSBki8O4TSLxA9BxzF0 BHpje+i8dw6E7bsqAzUHe0kI6aXK5Bx11K9XvivDsBkThHO8aLvTUx8bOTKiPtVaO94o GWbv9Ql7n2jWNgKlFyYoFgYowLof3m+iV3BA/TbJEu7PD8XhYpRNRocM47gGfM+6UMky cpLyfY7lFTabklBnjmpKI/hKDL24WeXSJJR+WjhUS1bc+L8b5Mw6cx/ZzX8CH85DRHn5 uPV1lIl1U+rRjP6Dem2E9sMpNs5rSp7Dg2/gCkL89OPskvuOUiDfNXjvO5w1R3H2UZSy 3T+g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLDLwwjeOndZuM3n4SuOtQLPgkCghHtrhmFhd75Dix/uMz1rNH3c/Ip+ATC6MBeVyOQmG18CBsu17Bhxg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.145.85 with SMTP id i82mr1239554ywg.87.1464760431579; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: markh.sj@gmail.com Received: by 10.129.88.133 with HTTP; Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <574887A3.30003@xiph.org> <20160529104233.1bfbda09@telecino> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:53:51 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vWBEgJmKjhBOsCWpE6OGbFf9EBs Message-ID: From: Mark Harris To: "codec@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Ambisonics in an Ogg Opus Container X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 05:53:54 -0000 >> In section 3.2 perhaps it should be clarified that the first ambisonic >> channel (W) may be used directly for mono playback, particularly if >> streams with channel mapping family 2 might only have one channel. > > I added a short paragraph to the end of 3.2. What do you think? Thanks, this looks good in the -02 version. - Mark