From nobody Fri Jun 17 05:26:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B40412D50D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jmvalin-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTT7dJEF_YSZ for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10C6412D147 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id f126so87015022wma.1 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jmvalin-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+mXo7vRKbqL4SCtPjdP7qfsDgmgsKGn8DO+6wiqLF2A=; b=pQcuVO3W896UgUJgzQwLF3zfa4eCcP8YSM/WaudWjMrykU9q5Jt8pDeC49SBmO905x M7nk+UVdzlzFtLVhXHTAW/G+oPhKXsXZRYodhY8jlhj4w8wPzZ3ylMcjMXcAPHQ260CA A62XKRsKqYQzIBRwK/eZ7noVN6xWLni7Wxo0PD0hPiIFw/MA3NzUZHNpY8ATNoZSLesB ZqhCfJ/UeUiqyi5cnTIPNDyeM6vXCC4/otOYpusC4PqdP/zQdp9jeCccFdf5x0+ZT/MS tbzPKfbYd+2hUhxntX7gQgMcvR2ZubGZc7a9ij6NIWQpTAvOj74HAqD0evCDCJKuF07p 3QcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+mXo7vRKbqL4SCtPjdP7qfsDgmgsKGn8DO+6wiqLF2A=; b=gJdPZ0MUXHaOwm0Sw1SkmpSS8lsizQZZm4P+x8joGWMwMUzhYvBRGwxr/CHovvTv2G HpRcORQt1HGpLd1EsFkjDxvpRxNs08TEU46neV5uOiNXtT5q/1dFDPSx5XZxzt+PzIPb 4+1XU2a0l6Be7qyuFxDuMC7fTAuzovIPv7dBrJlHTaWwbby3YXhWOmwGKynL07v+5d/b d8o7LwK+8EVcLndQ7SgwIJiiNvS/TtXLzLONra71e98zE3w1wJ70jDS9RPwPfhxpagtC v/skhsSXEYle9vSJfjLIrCNC/EE5rY1UStkzpV3j34Rt42UWzyObA8aJmSfcOGN/sPFA NsqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI3pY1W0S6UpQaJcjRtYZM4rLz8cwQKO232mg3GYCFX9aXAlF8mcNYjV8Sh1zFUag== X-Received: by 10.28.67.195 with SMTP id q186mr2237002wma.94.1466166366208; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panoramix.jmvalin.ca ([194.73.252.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bh4sm18697157wjc.43.2016.06.17.05.26.05 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:26:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jean-Marc Valin X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 To: "codec@ietf.org" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:26:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:26:12 -0000 Hi, I've been working on completing the update draft and have come across one last thing that I think should be updated in the spec. This was discovered through running hybrid mode at low rates, around 16 kb/s. At those rates, we sometimes only have enough bits to code a single CELT band (8 - 9.6 kHz). When that happens in hybrid mode (unlike CELT-only), the second band (CELT band 18, from 9.6 to 12 kHz) cannot use folding because it is wider than the amount already coded, and falls back to LCG noise. Because it can also happen on transients (e.g. stops), it can cause audible pre-echo. My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding of the second band. The proposed patch is available at: https://git.xiph.org/?p=opus.git;a=commitdiff;h=949c7f33181 It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and the fix. This is before the change: http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav and this is after the change: http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has noticeable HF pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the same 16 kb/s CBR bit-stream. The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft. Cheers, Jean-Marc From nobody Fri Jun 17 08:08:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43C712D734 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=thaumas-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PbtgWGhIP_O1 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A90112D733 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id v199so1985677wmv.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thaumas-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7A+lGhCq5o3Bx3fxOX0sIJxGh5l8VYvysLXJJD+FgFw=; b=L26ccQCzkQnqsQ2/CBPh6+toVG3BtzXk6g9oQKkxtM6/uDgWTnBvsNMnSnaIMHU65a KPxOjozpkvO7skfXHpXFybUQyZ0Om27IYeBlEWTRydQIqc5Iff5Hme336PTGRRPcOn6B C+XbG5M92903kM0p3Shzs/r8t8OgSRptZxWyQFqKC3ml6wv9y/689t0154dD2eo/d1tL 09oxyY2KQWwZWX/whQXYMje/5hkpJnfB6XF5ahJsz5nTAuxapGJBrF9sge6hKCcMHAH4 /o2lRyzWWIgXQU5HDh8HmX/0G8QaYn++0wfHif7/6YqHLfkMhPFFl6Nt7Q+qKW3ZDFLk zsMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7A+lGhCq5o3Bx3fxOX0sIJxGh5l8VYvysLXJJD+FgFw=; b=RMU9+7wTVvmxLLATHqj+TOGRsAsm4KwhK6vBS3YQmQvC0+LOU6OzX+dvjN4cRPDED6 2Djt1q5xfiEO30MhghBHzbZkba1FKY50+zFJbrni9IZimVQitvZMqQfKMcMR4WvDLjZF xNk+rAdl6wXDmlWOQGzQ/cVksJ7YP5Bm5Ct/+OXeJguBoiBWQ8Sl1OQTD4shKBVqra7p kbLpTOuXFEO0TsQ7AejzKzDWmgqsYJqdA1i7FnfzWp840Sl5eJOISm5SU6sgRAz0ry2u DffeBw/YS7eTCRJ3oWHtWmKLPg4vOwts7zvFSdcKo2dREimEOFTYgUQUjm7yz8Xbw1UJ 9I7A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ1cUhoRJvNYFjQmxOY1jVIat072rVj2VQkiA2DLgFvoVsCZEswp0WVWZxaB6Oa1g== X-Received: by 10.194.239.232 with SMTP id vv8mr2762321wjc.166.1466176112519; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tamias.local (host86-187-38-120.range86-187.btcentralplus.com. [86.187.38.120]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y6sm4048133wmy.8.2016.06.17.08.08.31 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:08:31 -0700 (PDT) To: codec@ietf.org References: From: Ralph Giles Message-ID: <453aa47d-88a5-0da1-4696-7fa92d4237f8@thaumas.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:08:36 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:08:36 -0000 On 2016-06-17 1:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. I support adding this refinement to the update draft. -r From nobody Sun Jun 19 07:55:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7164012D1E6 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xfC5P-uzU2Cs for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6D412D1E0 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp14-2-91-105.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net (HELO mailservice.shelbyville.oz) ([14.2.91.105]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 00:25:35 +0930 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E955DFFC4F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:25:33 +0930 (ACST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailservice.shelbyville.oz Received: from mailservice.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailservice.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ut4JxgygYAhh for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:25:33 +0930 (ACST) Received: from hex.shelbyville.oz (hex.shelbyville.oz [192.168.1.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4D5FFB25 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:25:33 +0930 (ACST) Received: by hex.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 65FD380470; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:25:33 +0930 (ACST) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:25:33 +0930 From: Ron To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160619145533.GM2702@hex.shelbyville.oz> References: <453aa47d-88a5-0da1-4696-7fa92d4237f8@thaumas.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <453aa47d-88a5-0da1-4696-7fa92d4237f8@thaumas.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:55:49 -0000 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 04:08:36PM +0100, Ralph Giles wrote: > On 2016-06-17 1:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > I support adding this refinement to the update draft. +1 From nobody Sun Jun 19 08:31:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981D612D522 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id akH3VeiRU9q4 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de (vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:523:eb55::]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B72E12D50E for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:8070:8182:dc01:514d:dadc:c1eb:fb82] (helo=samsung7); authenticated by vwp12996.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1bEeh4-0007UI-Q2; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:31:27 +0200 From: "Christian Hoene" To: References: <453aa47d-88a5-0da1-4696-7fa92d4237f8@thaumas.net> <20160619145533.GM2702@hex.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20160619145533.GM2702@hex.shelbyville.oz> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:31:22 +0200 Message-ID: <005601d1ca2e$e2059ca0$a610d5e0$@symonics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQLbhBxb64KPmAlCiOoyO/F7T0gm6wKxrR++At0d2vWdsN8WEA== Content-Language: de X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; christian.hoene@symonics.com; 1466350289; 263258d2; Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:31:30 -0000 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 04:08:36PM +0100, Ralph Giles wrote: > On 2016-06-17 1:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > I support adding this refinement to the update draft. +1 From nobody Sun Jun 19 18:19:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D55912D888 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnOzs27fK1LZ for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D3A12D887 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id y7so5305248obt.1 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:19:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uccXYmPniCGNmmyS8NJ0JCFhIuEbZY1xY/dbYeuck/k=; b=dHQqhcK16c40DoJHJmm+u1QXzEa/4WyNnUIjSB2MBj8vqh7j9Q99p9OOIOWlFPjRVb rZw2bf0hw2mErt7ZDO10aChpDoKzi0VdBaZrZkNU/T+psJMUI8foqiluACtgu6PgX3zn nbIYGMild5Jggx5Ih9HD0Gu6Be3E5Z9CDso95+srwlZx9cOt9FoXlRXdJUqz616td0dJ tWiFBdcLeWDMoKgyRAp4czEY3CBh1xeG3pLcgTH52WHrHdlNE0bxgaTSk95L5CILBQHK aEnJdgBH61wIkJxT55jFZQj95bjcAZxdMB0ijR6s83cGngQIIMFAKqT6yueLWuM1T8N5 s13w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=uccXYmPniCGNmmyS8NJ0JCFhIuEbZY1xY/dbYeuck/k=; b=ix91nGUXooPpbI4jaV6rhwtmBsTiQuwZ2hmH4+X+AtaAYCUDMU7fg38GNR/GD2v2KN pzFDxPwBJFleaSmfFG1WavA0SGSyMQNNfBz2n9WH+y57orekFojkTi5ufFptn+0dUNqL C8Nbii+JJjf/YmVbDV85HeJoo7bG+2os6No0mv5NDcyKX4v9AtplzKMohdYjMmtEnSWO 2OAnWwowX9coTdAwF0GJLGFYYZ3R2OFkmyraMH1aP7S0H8ZizTMdYETAapXavZacaukr Ji2qAvmxmGmmlNuYnWPOMRhx8J9fu0GidR84wLoGrdyeU0NKKL87dLdcS5dljlqdZCTd IFHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIZr3t88q39d7FVcvJmyaJrvQFxdzfLu1VpvbCyd/qv7TaWzY/pTpJMngyu3lOe/ncf+krgOXlqLkTB2hlM X-Received: by 10.157.22.179 with SMTP id c48mr8221247ote.35.1466385563664; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:19:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <453aa47d-88a5-0da1-4696-7fa92d4237f8@thaumas.net> <20160619145533.GM2702@hex.shelbyville.oz> <005601d1ca2e$e2059ca0$a610d5e0$@symonics.com> In-Reply-To: <005601d1ca2e$e2059ca0$a610d5e0$@symonics.com> From: Jan Skoglund Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:19:14 +0000 Message-ID: To: Christian Hoene , codec@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140bad8a094ef0535ab7e84 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:19:26 -0000 --001a1140bad8a094ef0535ab7e84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I support, too. Cheers, Jan On Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 8:31 AM Christian Hoene wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 04:08:36PM +0100, Ralph Giles wrote: > > On 2016-06-17 1:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > > > > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > > > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > > > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > > > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > > > I support adding this refinement to the update draft. > > +1 > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > --001a1140bad8a094ef0535ab7e84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support, too.

Cheers,
Jan


On Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 8:31 = AM Christian Hoene <chri= stian.hoene@symonics.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 04:08:36PM +0100, Ralph Giles wrote:
> On 2016-06-17 1:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>
> > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement do= es
> > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not s= ee
> > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current=
> > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change.
>
> I support adding this refinement to the update draft.

+1


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
--001a1140bad8a094ef0535ab7e84-- From nobody Sun Jun 19 18:56:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9188A12D8AE for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2j2GyeBbSVth for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E62B012D89E for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id t129so178706469vka.1 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:55:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9TzWMyZokxmXutqEPgeagiw9VY89lfN3TPPr3/n2Mxw=; b=UQzmZkpwFcHBGLNAh7jrien7OeaviH5spvVDutJu8IIyMSs2EGozceHU/RRIC0grj3 rD9F+O7RHUB6QSODtVFcfG/Xb5eohAEXnFopFoXKlqCALa/Xe+Nkcw1l8PvMIGpnFX+g lcym9H8W/R3J6gdi74ZqNcD9riW/oO9FpdiOX3X0s03pbXDxRcr6Ws9N+3Cyh7rSsxgL JR+VCPbvsvap4bb4c+ShyCtOO9emUttCk7clj2oHQnvLT4jI4d5EDgD+UKeuY4JDfqZq 5YIpxtoI+UopV6NgCa/KQMS81QipMDrS8AMeiIGjdKtALnI/jqc8Qke+K6dgLN4Ae8Ke B64w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9TzWMyZokxmXutqEPgeagiw9VY89lfN3TPPr3/n2Mxw=; b=TEgwRUq46wSAfZbWAeNt47lUjg0ZUjfD7wNU8Qy0qWSo1xh2rOYiErvlS8o0d1asan Unc0dngCRRcS5/aZR+8QWZtLNiyUSl8gvXl9TzBcBh06B8Mublfgd+Z3CXNIdax03zlP 4rcAViFiaDVSIRQ/j8/CTJgjkZLBe+rVB3L1klQQLXi7LuNaDDYLmLhhZA4lp2S4xuWF XB1s9hzwwZsqumpVqKtiorWaAKaR/2DrAy7WSnpUuvDFbUQrrQHq31FGQGDugFocqRWH WD2WU17a7s6iv1j9xRJkdjw1aKDxSFbvoOVoo7rRc0DCsYteeMyZXk5xFvWrUwxlyQb3 Td5A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIIH68tKy59oc4tIINljWCPc5dR5F5lkRJfo1AE7nDMS8anhk5DhwwMwKF40WxmDsG2mH4HthtUrxIpYA== X-Received: by 10.159.40.37 with SMTP id c34mr4277155uac.79.1466387755651; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.94.67 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gregory Maxwell Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:55:55 +0000 Message-ID: To: Jean-Marc Valin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:56:01 -0000 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is > never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This > is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding > of the second band. The proposed patch is available at: > https://git.xiph.org/?p=opus.git;a=commitdiff;h=949c7f33181 > It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo > problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and > the fix. This is before the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav > and this is after the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav > Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has noticeable HF > pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the same 16 > kb/s CBR bit-stream. > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft. This appears reasonable to me, and I also do not see a way in which the old behavior could be usefully used, or any way that this would be likely to cause serious incompatibility. From nobody Mon Jun 20 10:45:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C790212D8BA for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRzlqFvVo0Sf for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8130612D8D2 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id d185so205214266vkg.0 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hBTYk9LLB2Qzb46J2H6nbFsUNWy1OxDJK3vEWnOqXhg=; b=aHydthBDaDK6vfvmKU10a9AzVf5sSFdSdSnLyrxV5Dncbrz0cIx2xNe+G5GRmF7f/7 zHGcpujMpFM2o+IFt+Si1tuBhZsWO3h1vYIk1v16ZR9hVic6Xs1zvcBxQoBVkx7m6E/E BgjD12LWwfZAqcbotOxAYszipBoHqyhYpHDPtwL5v2ErWRStbhvfD9lwDwQvGF7UJfbI OmHJXe0Df2ENk/6mSnqJtWXQMrAHY0jRi3zIHc62uK+hmFyimAcfuObkDsxTB7hQ29Fv RcjKU8kJypyfsOEQnoeF1nc8MQHq9VIsAhKgWm3l7X7iwOBUoLscaOXQCWcN+v1CTmIZ 3fzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hBTYk9LLB2Qzb46J2H6nbFsUNWy1OxDJK3vEWnOqXhg=; b=aL2o2Bqqz/4MtSaYvWELaUofHFIET0Z+QzIoRpzyr+Ylyq30WmhMMj3lwXHXBm32+U gd0KgqDOhaOb/KFkPEVqmanHpYu5UoH+kAZ3AkgP5qPVxqW0ihN5FYdXtyaTFy/V5WDy PWnzwUIl+8pfeVuOTCEGiN/rG5gfJa2EclbXdlWUiF10Xped3NU2+v/JOSm5BGPVsWBI H+OBCKIrw24acwYc3YgSRCU7MEYJOd50/QNoI6QryGu8Jl8rFzOjIMWKp04xXxtgQTR2 P3SXTzjYPg46TLrjRAS5sMdV95ZA4B9it7d0gp0k/RCnnp1NR9Q7kf4s4L6LbdjjdW6a Su6w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIkuuYUGenosdqrACtq5n7gNQVoHTtlLTdNbxEJVVMsRVLk7UW007OUmLnZRUr4srCx36FG1DdguiM1NJZE X-Received: by 10.159.54.201 with SMTP id p67mr5935495uap.59.1466444693428; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.68.153 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Graczyk Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:44:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: codec@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0485a8097a690535b94372 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:44:59 -0000 --94eb2c0485a8097a690535b94372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:26 AM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > Hi, > > I've been working on completing the update draft and have come across > one last thing that I think should be updated in the spec. This was > discovered through running hybrid mode at low rates, around 16 kb/s. > > At those rates, we sometimes only have enough bits to code a single > CELT band (8 - 9.6 kHz). When that happens in hybrid mode (unlike > CELT-only), the second band (CELT band 18, from 9.6 to 12 kHz) cannot > use folding because it is wider than the amount already coded, and > falls back to LCG noise. Because it can also happen on transients > (e.g. stops), it can cause audible pre-echo. > > My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is > never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This > is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding > of the second band. The proposed patch is available at: > https://git.xiph.org/?p=opus.git;a=commitdiff;h=949c7f33181 > It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo > problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and > the fix. This is before the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav > and this is after the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav > Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has noticeable HF > pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the same 16 > kb/s CBR bit-stream. > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > -- Thanks, Michael Graczyk --94eb2c0485a8097a690535b94372 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:26 AM, Jean-Marc Valin = <jmvalin@jmvalin= .ca> wrote:
Hi,

I've been working on completing the update draft and have come across one last thing that I think should be updated in the spec. This was
discovered through running hybrid mode at low rates, around 16 kb/s.

At those rates, we sometimes only have enough bits to code a single
CELT band (8 - 9.6 kHz). When that happens in hybrid mode (unlike
CELT-only), the second band (CELT band 18, from 9.6 to 12 kHz) cannot
use folding because it is wider than the amount already coded, and
falls back to LCG noise. Because it can also happen on transients
(e.g. stops), it can cause audible pre-echo.

My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is
never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This
is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding
of the second band. The proposed patch is available at:
https://git.xiph.org/?p=3Dopus.git;= a=3Dcommitdiff;h=3D949c7f33181
It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo
problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and
the fix. This is before the change:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav
and this is after the change:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav
Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has n= oticeable HF
pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the sa= me 16
kb/s CBR bit-stream.

The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does
not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see
any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current
broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change.

For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft.

Cheers,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jean-Marc

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



--
Thanks,
Michael Graczyk
--94eb2c0485a8097a690535b94372-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 02:22:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D23612D0B8 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b4rRpfg867Gm for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com (mail-lf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A310612D099 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id f6so14104276lfg.0 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nutn09L4pIXZgYXmiNJ3geV4mQxUQUyWoa2DQ9cy12I=; b=PyBAlywJicbUa8UsEM65DI0fiW1m3ONUWR+ddf07U8X/UH9VZJv/LZ4qL4ZJKobHYO wpQiIeqckxw2z3Ddcib6FjPPN07jSoH9fOlBjTSnww3IHUrB66cdT149ToxTQKu/UJHn jlab8klktZOVc5uJpG+dJUFeEDCyEBirzW+Uc+lO98vO2cwOSKhmqoy5G3xYeek7+ElV vJUVbuqO4/Jxh22RnrLJX0LIPLI9WJ4wXFXlRILFSspUiCRbZcF1lVqEwAfQUW1PHpSf 6H97DhLArDG2GTNdMuMUN+z1D9A4Z5FjwZfTXL/y339ErHCBUrGilLuwSvbn5VdHNfl6 5bWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=nutn09L4pIXZgYXmiNJ3geV4mQxUQUyWoa2DQ9cy12I=; b=UKImgIV5k2Z9HcRwLI0bObXA4xVODNIWZodOtEu1A9uhHmIs8sqJe0HEnj5hLt7vy7 l7ft7HwxZq65T6rxnNgmcwGMc0OYmcYcMcju4LDNg0vEfPtJ9OmOkAPr0eom6pVeRXiK nReiJ/XW7W+ldu9JAUszaFPKswhnum+2C06DMNQRE4L/aBZMF2JTWn6SGYShow8nwNCd QLHmYeDUsJueks3pfnUjQqNupiHbRC9a8AoCHwlIvFdNfHQUCiqHm624NLSIyz8OxHiq lNM4HmzWuDuXmyTegTyzF+NstbhciaYxabwMwItHOTRsJNhcv+jFKVFIGmrkT5bE/Ozs bBPg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIQjQcSQu4VsLA28twqToH9jzl1bI4mCJ/hTlhPTXGklcE7MqOb4GuJYp69pBto+NCDddG6mVU1zejHiWGG X-Received: by 10.25.85.75 with SMTP id j72mr6485024lfb.31.1466500951618; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:22:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Felicia Lim Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:22:22 +0000 Message-ID: To: "codec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140d8084907650535c65c56 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Last proposal for the update draft X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:22:38 -0000 --001a1140d8084907650535c65c56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM Jean-Marc Valin wrote: > Hi, > > I've been working on completing the update draft and have come across > one last thing that I think should be updated in the spec. This was > discovered through running hybrid mode at low rates, around 16 kb/s. > > At those rates, we sometimes only have enough bits to code a single > CELT band (8 - 9.6 kHz). When that happens in hybrid mode (unlike > CELT-only), the second band (CELT band 18, from 9.6 to 12 kHz) cannot > use folding because it is wider than the amount already coded, and > falls back to LCG noise. Because it can also happen on transients > (e.g. stops), it can cause audible pre-echo. > > My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is > never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This > is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding > of the second band. The proposed patch is available at: > https://git.xiph.org/?p=opus.git;a=commitdiff;h=949c7f33181 > It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo > problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and > the fix. This is before the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav > and this is after the change: > http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav > Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has noticeable HF > pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the same 16 > kb/s CBR bit-stream. > > The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does > not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see > any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current > broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change. > > For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft. > > Cheers, > > Jean-Marc > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > --001a1140d8084907650535c65c56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1

On F= ri, Jun 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM Jean-Marc Valin <jmvalin@jmvalin.ca> wrote:
Hi,

I've been working on completing the update draft and have come across one last thing that I think should be updated in the spec. This was
discovered through running hybrid mode at low rates, around 16 kb/s.

At those rates, we sometimes only have enough bits to code a single
CELT band (8 - 9.6 kHz). When that happens in hybrid mode (unlike
CELT-only), the second band (CELT band 18, from 9.6 to 12 kHz) cannot
use folding because it is wider than the amount already coded, and
falls back to LCG noise. Because it can also happen on transients
(e.g. stops), it can cause audible pre-echo.

My proposed solution is to fix the folding behaviour so that it is
never forced to fall back to LCG due to not enough folding data. This
is achieved by simply repeating part of the first band in the folding
of the second band. The proposed patch is available at:
https://git.xiph.org/?p=3Dopus.git;= a=3Dcommitdiff;h=3D949c7f33181
It's a decoder-only change and it fixes the low-bitrate pre-echo
problem. I uploaded a short example that demonstrates the problem and
the fix. This is before the change:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_before.wav
and this is after the change:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/fix_after.wav
Note especially the "t" in the word "tour", which has n= oticeable HF
pre-echo in the "before" file. Both files are decoded from the sa= me 16
kb/s CBR bit-stream.

The fix does not impact compatibility, because the improvement does
not depend on the encoder doing anything special. I also do not see
any case where an encoder could have effectively used the current
broken behaviour to improve quality over the proposed change.

For these reasons, I think it should be included in the update draft.

Cheers,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jean-Marc

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
--001a1140d8084907650535c65c56-- From nobody Sun Jun 26 14:21:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietf.org Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E68812D146 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:21:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:21:23 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 21:21:23 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit Ambisonics channel mapping to IESG (Standards Track)", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/codec/charter/ From nobody Mon Jun 27 04:01:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0262312D122 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 04:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5sw6n-QTn35R for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 04:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx1.scl3.mozilla.com [63.245.214.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FB6A12D11F for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 04:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F99C00A4 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:01:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mozilla.org Received: from smtp.mozilla.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2G_lyJRR7vdf for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:01:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.17.0.87] (50-78-100-113-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.78.100.113]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BF1DC0069 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:01:26 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 04:01:26 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: codec@ietf.org References: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:01:29 -0000 IETF Secretariat wrote: > Changed milestone "Submit Ambisonics channel mapping to IESG > (Standards Track)", set state to active from review, accepting new > milestone. The IESG has approved a milestone for this work. Now we need a WG draft for it. As the only current candidate, the chairs would like to issue a two-week call for consensus on whether or not to adopt https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics as a working group item. Adoption means that the group feels the document is a good starting point to achieving this milestone. Please send comments for or against to the list by Monday, July 11th. From nobody Mon Jun 27 14:26:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF5B12D974 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H0LMQ-i7DOfa for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECBBE12D95F for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id u64so249505491vkf.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cm7jTZYHIVZVvcbJMgnYYO8zgL12ByGszjvLEDutKRI=; b=CcKCyRZdH/s9xO+9holvh3sqKqUIkPrzSqCEdsb5wVtORJfEGAgL50fHlCUllcWYfW fWpm2mRqX76gbRKzIDqEk8E/HWXeVmyE8VLBCUntfO6y9FY8FqlS+QvpKfEDeu8NA+Sm g8TAODvmqgeviwqhqIcuX2wiDKRGvhaTUO/Hoi8wJZhdFL9/h22K6c14VHxomWucpfl3 OYTj+GLhocHd9ktTgpUnYAUG2sSBXPURtJ1ZMuMs51UJgvfo40azWGnSyj6OFb+kVEv6 CoEAKSMPePP6z5PTQacJWnajeS101ztAsaqqhAJWuhuL33TTkmYUkvBJ4Zba2VFp5CBY Qthw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cm7jTZYHIVZVvcbJMgnYYO8zgL12ByGszjvLEDutKRI=; b=WC/IIOyPijHSpziDhkCkz4B5CMY8suQOLBp4/PLprc45v9LVxw7MddSqHPy/kmUHRo 6G21bqy7WCtx5fEEzuZk3QssGbMkQzBi/5xNuXD8/40RkvSpxNPocSyk04XD2RbK6+8H gI7YJm1gl8qDrNNPNs2WXphAe0ecb5/xreGltUUt3QkRI8cU6mXuBvsCWyiIK5IaX0wT GjeWYoKVr2qz2YHagSNqM1ujZW/UfVTtR9ebmjcBdBF2+Snv705aZHc7QVaUDynlpo3n SoCcxS54ssQxqO1b00CUln1S3TB5xAkI0jgtKsQXGJBs4f9nKFoAncXFfoqZspMrR25Z zemw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ/H6XXbusVGhCj/sLc+ESrrOzDMNtJdQNFQyb8jNe+44E725Z0/oLOzkup1h8bv0+WvmDadvMGC3uYlPI+ X-Received: by 10.31.21.143 with SMTP id 137mr4574687vkv.108.1467062765788; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.68.153 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> References: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> From: Michael Graczyk Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:26:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 21:26:11 -0000 I am for adopting the linked draft as a working group item. On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > IETF Secretariat wrote: >> >> Changed milestone "Submit Ambisonics channel mapping to IESG >> (Standards Track)", set state to active from review, accepting new >> milestone. > > > The IESG has approved a milestone for this work. Now we need a WG draft for > it. As the only current candidate, the chairs would like to issue a two-week > call for consensus on whether or not to adopt > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics as a working > group item. Adoption means that the group feels the document is a good > starting point to achieving this milestone. > > Please send comments for or against to the list by Monday, July 11th. > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec -- Thanks, Michael Graczyk From nobody Tue Jun 28 05:19:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6A312D123 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z_9z1ow9iawi for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB3D12D0DE for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-210-87-74.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO mailservice.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.87.74]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 28 Jun 2016 21:49:24 +0930 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C6BFFC66 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:49:23 +0930 (ACST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailservice.shelbyville.oz Received: from mailservice.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailservice.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xP-r5Md29miX for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:49:21 +0930 (ACST) Received: from hex.shelbyville.oz (hex.shelbyville.oz [192.168.1.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailservice.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C57A9FF94F for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:49:21 +0930 (ACST) Received: by hex.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B948880470; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:49:21 +0930 (ACST) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:49:21 +0930 From: Ron To: codec@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160628121921.GJ5992@hex.shelbyville.oz> References: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:19:28 -0000 On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 04:01:26AM -0700, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > IETF Secretariat wrote: > >Changed milestone "Submit Ambisonics channel mapping to IESG > >(Standards Track)", set state to active from review, accepting new > >milestone. > > The IESG has approved a milestone for this work. Now we need a WG draft for > it. As the only current candidate, the chairs would like to issue a two-week > call for consensus on whether or not to adopt > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics as a working > group item. Adoption means that the group feels the document is a good > starting point to achieving this milestone. > > Please send comments for or against to the list by Monday, July 11th. I'm happy to have this group to adopt that draft. From nobody Tue Jun 28 05:36:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC7A12DE38 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jmvalin-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0RrxEEtx8R6 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A924212D879 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id q79so25830515qke.0 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jmvalin-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iDP8f6UL4j/KT8RLVjGqCy6rQ7pCcuc7B1U2JJfYrZ4=; b=2MehQXX0EvC4elmKiX+1s22aeqGDTx5wBF6vCrrQ/rVAPSqX7S1eMX18LB9mhIPLJn ZyXLxliCbVQ5FoEYcEsi7Ocj0M8pqbIR0HFSOTkC/oKj9tvHNhsQS17uwyqRemcJt2EP SWAhe9lWoQzclop4QEMp66JOunH/v3EqDLD7ICX+oWkjUUl//s9lufp/4/Vv45S0Axlt 4mmC0FROdd+4PBYxpeweSOkYSqhAyvV7iP1bnliTdY4rhOIHKdMTpbF5rB/CZCfivwjX q1we0ovjAAqZTISAB1qJzr3uF6b8ReMmPaAohoAV68TtkdWUWM3fia/DnC+/Ww+bk30M R1jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iDP8f6UL4j/KT8RLVjGqCy6rQ7pCcuc7B1U2JJfYrZ4=; b=VH+9CoIKlfjqIUKqAzo9NyqTx6ibxIHIbdM8BRiBL+li4h2NvLIfCABgWw7zlw9ybv TK/SYEV/HFn07/o3VpWx/eD0nWxIeg2jWYT+TjYXAYzxFuoDgXNJM8T9jqb+JJp0v6yg noieoc8cjRUFQGff/e8zgs/lWV+LBdab+e9dPi6z/5I/U7SR3qVJCayxczoZ2igdvrSr 99CJwY6CUtSR9ZaHD821s9Pi0cyL0C7yJ0K/eDxZhA5M5yYcg8KBVF/SLaspY86cqmIn 3Oo3FoT6eUELp9T3TXkmbXTaiJc+AJQEK5w0MR6XDpfpEh12QGqBSWdsztVZzfkNC9zi ZerQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL3IuhB1sV/IL7caiuRExLlcyUbaDj6qbJ094ptGsTRIUl9Fun8cYzb0BYkUt3alw== X-Received: by 10.55.11.134 with SMTP id 128mr1451527qkl.160.1467117374809; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panoramix.jmvalin.ca (modemcable017.46-176-173.mc.videotron.ca. [173.176.46.17]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 23sm6005100qkg.49.2016.06.28.05.36.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:36:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" , codec@ietf.org References: <20160626212123.6121.44427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> From: Jean-Marc Valin Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:36:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57710786.2070605@xiph.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [codec] Milestones changed for codec WG X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:36:17 -0000 On 06/27/2016 07:01 AM, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > The IESG has approved a milestone for this work. Now we need a WG draft > for it. As the only current candidate, the chairs would like to issue a > two-week call for consensus on whether or not to adopt > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics as a working > group item. Adoption means that the group feels the document is a good > starting point to achieving this milestone. I support adopting draft-graczyk-codec-ambisonics as a WG draft. Jean-Marc