From nobody Tue Feb 1 00:44:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC163A1D17; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 00:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TTLxjWEHun55; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 00:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61DB3A1D12; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 00:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Jnz4b4gbczDCd8; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:44:15 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <54C9EFC3-79B2-4578-B266-39C5ECBFFC31@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:44:14 +0100 Cc: Alice Russo , emo-dir@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <57879BF3-B89D-46AF-AC69-3E4CFB4A425F@tzi.org> References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <54C9EFC3-79B2-4578-B266-39C5ECBFFC31@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 08:44:26 -0000 On 1. Feb 2022, at 04:29, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > The standard term used by the tools team is "rendering". This = predates me so I don=E2=80=99t the know origins but authors.ietf.org = uses this term and "converting" where "rendering" would be hard to = understand. I agree that it has a one-time implication but some times = we just need to pick a word. Yes, and I was pointing out that the one that was picked maybe isn=E2=80=99= t so good after all. Greg Wood came up with =E2=80=9Cprocessing=E2=80=9D, which would be my = recommendation. 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Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:31:18 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jay Daley , Lars Eggert CC: "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo Thread-Topic: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides Thread-Index: AQHYE6lXkeu9TxeTT0qK8kLDOp8zl6x9KkAAgAE+M4CAAHG7AA== Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:31:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <05AC7CC9741BD44B81648A5D5D2A6029@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.816 definitions=2022-02-01_07:2022-02-01, 2022-02-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=599 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202010087 X-Proofpoint-GUID: u0iAiLHevrJNvBKUrrHGeV6skr-kHRZI X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: u0iAiLHevrJNvBKUrrHGeV6skr-kHRZI X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-02-01_07,2022-02-01_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=605 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202010087 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 15:31:34 -0000 PiAgICAgMS4gQXMgYmVsb3csIGRvIHdlIHJlY29tbWVuZCBNYXJrZG93biBvdmVyIFhNTCBvciBs ZXQgcGVvcGxlIGNob29zZT8gIFRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHNpdGUgY3VycmVudGx5IGxldHMgcGVvcGxl IGNob29zZSBidXQgdGhhdCBjYW4gY2hhbmdlLg0KDQpBdCB0aGUgRU1PRElSIGNhbGwgbGFzdCB3 ZWVrLCBBbGljZSBzYWlkIHRoYXQgc3RhdGlzdGljcyBzaG93IDkwJSBpcyBYTUwgYW5kIHVuZGVy IDEwJSBpcyBtYXJrZG93biwgd2l0aCBhIHNtYXR0ZXJpbmcgb2Ygb3RoZXIgdGhpbmdzLg0KDQpT byBsZXQncyBwaWNrIHRoZSB0b3AgdHdvIGZvciBub3csIHhtbCBhbmQga3JhbWRvd24uDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Feb 1 09:24:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3903A1712; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:24:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5RAkY7I9Lpr; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEAE33A170D; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CFA6C2184D; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:23:58 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Jay Daley , Lars Eggert , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 09:23:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Rich Salz's message of "Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:31:17 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:24:03 -0000 "Salz, Rich" writes: > > 1. As below, do we recommend Markdown over XML or let people choose? > The authors site currently lets people choose but that can change. > > At the EMODIR call last week, Alice said that statistics show 90% is > XML and under 10% is markdown, with a smattering of other things. > > So let's pick the top two for now, xml and kramdown. We should pick ones that we think will be the easiest to get people started producing stuff, regardless of what the current crowd is using (because they've been using XML for so long I'm sure it's the most popular). To help people they need: 1. an easy to use/edit language 2. an easy to use build tool 3. documentation 4. A list of alternatives to 1 and 2 if they wish to explore What the right answers are to 1 and 2 I'm not sure. To *me*, markdown is far easier for people to understand and get started with because it's syntax is probably already understood by new folks. I can still never remember the right XML tag for a list, etc, and whether or not it should be nested inside a , etc. One downside of the markdown format(s) is that it's unclear how to do the extra required stuff (wg name, ipr statements, etc) without a clear template to start with because we require so much extra metadata. Once I got my own template to copy each time, life became much easier. But I probably wrote 2-3 drafts in xml that I wanted to do in markdown but couldn't figure out how to get started quickly and didn't spend the time until later to figure out all the right magic syntax in markdown. And there's the rub: both formats require some magic syntax. I think MT's build environment is great, except that I actually don't understand much of it when I glance at it the first time. It's an overwhelming makefile and needs a better getting started guide (IMHO; no offense intended -- it could have just been me and my minimal brain). So for *me* I actually forked my own copy of a simplified version that I use as a template because my minimal brain understands it better. -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Tue Feb 1 09:56:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E0D3A183E; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:56:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wDRm7nDqVZES; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E4C53A183A; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JpCLB5tV4zDCcK; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:56:50 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:56:50 +0100 Cc: Jay Daley , Lars Eggert , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 665431010.375685-2a4c510f3a0cb3a1b424ff5115955e4a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:56:58 -0000 On 2022-02-01, at 16:31, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 > At the EMODIR call last week, Alice said that statistics show 90% is = XML and under 10% is markdown, with a smattering of other things. I don=E2=80=99t know about 90 % of what, but here=E2=80=99s my = statistics of the last 300 days of I-D submissions: $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | wc 3213 3213 189521 $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | xargs grep -l kramdown | wc 925 925 53698 More like: 29 % of the I-Ds submitted as XML show that they are = kramdown-generated. This simplistic method doesn=E2=80=99t see the drafts that are still = being submitted as text (some of which are generated by kramdown-rfc, = but then there is Word, nroff, =E2=80=A6). It also counts submissions = (revisions), not distinct drafts. But it is still a useful indicator (*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) =E2=80=9CThe future is already here =E2=80=93 it's just not evenly = distributed.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=95 William Gibson From nobody Tue Feb 1 10:02:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765B63A186E; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:02:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-IXOMY8DYU7; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C0BF3A186B; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from p5dec2378.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([93.236.35.120] helo=[192.168.178.42]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1nExU4-0002fj-FE; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 19:02:28 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:02:27 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Lars Eggert , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , "emo-dir@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1643738559;e5db8e9d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1nExU4-0002fj-FE Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 18:02:44 -0000 I believe her numbers were on publish RFCs, not Internet-Drafts, and the = assumption was already that the number is higher (and likely) increasing = for drafts. Thanks for providing this number! However, for the quick start guide for me the more important questions = is what find people easier to use when they are starting as newcomers in = the IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) draft. For = sure people likely don=E2=80=99t start by installing software on their = device, so what they need is an actual template file, a (text) editor, = and an online tool for conversion.=20 Mirja > On 1. Feb 2022, at 18:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2022-02-01, at 16:31, Salz, Rich wrote: >>=20 >> At the EMODIR call last week, Alice said that statistics show 90% is = XML and under 10% is markdown, with a smattering of other things. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t know about 90 % of what, but here=E2=80=99s my = statistics of the last 300 days of I-D submissions: >=20 > $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | wc > 3213 3213 189521 > $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | xargs grep -l kramdown | = wc > 925 925 53698 >=20 > More like: 29 % of the I-Ds submitted as XML show that they are = kramdown-generated. >=20 > This simplistic method doesn=E2=80=99t see the drafts that are still = being submitted as text (some of which are generated by kramdown-rfc, = but then there is Word, nroff, =E2=80=A6). It also counts submissions = (revisions), not distinct drafts. > But it is still a useful indicator (*). >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > (*) =E2=80=9CThe future is already here =E2=80=93 it's just not evenly = distributed.=E2=80=9D > =E2=80=95 William Gibson >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir From nobody Tue Feb 1 11:42:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8D43A08C8; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:42:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uk2DG44wcSGu; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B948B3A08C6; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JpFgP1d73zDCcV; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:41:53 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:41:52 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Lars Eggert , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , "emo-dir@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 19:42:02 -0000 On 1. Feb 2022, at 19:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > I believe her numbers were on publish RFCs, not Internet-Drafts, and = the assumption was already that the number is higher (and likely) = increasing for drafts. Thanks for providing this number! Then I=E2=80=99m not sure what that number expresses. I write all my IETF documents in kramdown-rfc. I never give anything but the generated XML to the RFC editor (well, = they could extract the markdown if they wanted to, but I know that their = processes center around XML). Am I in the 10 % or the 90 %? I think the draft submission percentage indicates where people do their = authoring work. > However, for the quick start guide for me the more important questions = is what find people easier to use when they are starting as newcomers in = the IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) draft. For = sure people likely don=E2=80=99t start by installing software on their = device, so what they need is an actual template file, a (text) editor, = and an online tool for conversion.=20 I=E2=80=99m not sure newness in the IETF correlates with the level of = affinity to software production techniques. There will be IETF newbs who will be put off by an environment that = favors pure Web tools over locally installable tools that are amenable = to source control, Makefiles etc. (And, conversely, there are old hands who like Web tools a lot.) The only thing that is true over the IETF as a whole is that different = pockets are different. So, as I=E2=80=99d recommend in general, design for choice. (But not unreasonable levels of choice.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Feb 1 11:53:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D356A3A09C6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yLb5HQ3JEHp0 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E0F63A09C0 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B0C4096D32; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6j7rjXjqP5dM; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E592B4096D30; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:53:14 +1300 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Lars Eggert , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> To: Wes Hardaker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 19:53:24 -0000 > On 2/02/2022, at 6:23 AM, Wes Hardaker wrote: >=20 > "Salz, Rich" writes: >=20 >>> 1. As below, do we recommend Markdown over XML or let people choose? >> The authors site currently lets people choose but that can change. >>=20 >> At the EMODIR call last week, Alice said that statistics show 90% is >> XML and under 10% is markdown, with a smattering of other things. >>=20 >> So let's pick the top two for now, xml and kramdown. >=20 > We should pick ones that we think will be the easiest to get people > started producing stuff, regardless of what the current crowd is using > (because they've been using XML for so long I'm sure it's the most > popular). >=20 > To help people they need: > 1. an easy to use/edit language > 2. an easy to use build tool > 3. documentation > 4. A list of alternatives to 1 and 2 if they wish to explore >=20 > What the right answers are to 1 and 2 I'm not sure. To *me*, markdown > is far easier for people to understand and get started with because = it's > syntax is probably already understood by new folks. I can still never > remember the right XML tag for a list, etc, and whether or not it = should > be nested inside a , etc. One downside of the markdown format(s) = is > that it's unclear how to do the extra required stuff (wg name, ipr > statements, etc) without a clear template to start with because we > require so much extra metadata. Once I got my own template to copy = each > time, life became much easier. But I probably wrote 2-3 drafts in xml > that I wanted to do in markdown but couldn't figure out how to get > started quickly and didn't spend the time until later to figure out = all > the right magic syntax in markdown. And there's the rub: both formats > require some magic syntax. >=20 > I think MT's build environment is great, except that I actually don't > understand much of it when I glance at it the first time. It's an > overwhelming makefile and needs a better getting started guide (IMHO; = no > offense intended -- it could have just been me and my minimal brain). > So for *me* I actually forked my own copy of a simplified version that = I > use as a template because my minimal brain understands it better. The importance of templates is something we appear to have consistently = underestimated, which I hope is now fixed for XML. As part of the = authors.ietf.org site we have three new templates https://authors.ietf.org/en/templates-and-schemas The advantages these have over the previous template(s) are - they suit all levels of knowledge, from the bare bones version for = experts to the one with comprehensive examples for beginners - they are correct in the way they use RFCXML (e.g. they use = for source code not ) - they follow the RPC=E2=80=99s best practice (e.g. they use xi:include = for references) - they support modern XML tools that provide syntax-aware editing - they don=E2=80=99t have any unnecessary external dependencies - they are on GitHub and open to community change requests It would be good if we could do the same for the Markdown variants. Jay >=20 > --=20 > Wes Hardaker > USC/ISI >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Feb 1 12:04:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57333A0A71; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:03:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnAIDYHM8-1j; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05FD3A0C55; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee74f8a0060338a80a4db301d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e74f:8a00:6033:8a80:a4db:301d]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1nEzMp-0002zU-Eq; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 21:03:07 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 21:03:06 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1643745793;b6afdcf1; X-HE-SMSGID: 1nEzMp-0002zU-Eq Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 20:04:00 -0000 Not disagreeing with your point but the problem we discussed that the = last meeting is that there is currently just too much choice and we need = a quick start guide for those who actually just want A (simple) way to = submit a draft=E2=80=A6. > On 1. Feb 2022, at 20:41, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 1. Feb 2022, at 19:02, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>=20 >> I believe her numbers were on publish RFCs, not Internet-Drafts, and = the assumption was already that the number is higher (and likely) = increasing for drafts. Thanks for providing this number! >=20 > Then I=E2=80=99m not sure what that number expresses. > I write all my IETF documents in kramdown-rfc. > I never give anything but the generated XML to the RFC editor (well, = they could extract the markdown if they wanted to, but I know that their = processes center around XML). > Am I in the 10 % or the 90 %? >=20 > I think the draft submission percentage indicates where people do = their authoring work. >=20 >> However, for the quick start guide for me the more important = questions is what find people easier to use when they are starting as = newcomers in the IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) = draft. For sure people likely don=E2=80=99t start by installing software = on their device, so what they need is an actual template file, a (text) = editor, and an online tool for conversion.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure newness in the IETF correlates with the level of = affinity to software production techniques. > There will be IETF newbs who will be put off by an environment that = favors pure Web tools over locally installable tools that are amenable = to source control, Makefiles etc. > (And, conversely, there are old hands who like Web tools a lot.) >=20 > The only thing that is true over the IETF as a whole is that different = pockets are different. > So, as I=E2=80=99d recommend in general, design for choice. > (But not unreasonable levels of choice.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir From nobody Tue Feb 1 12:35:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D6A3A0CAE; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:35:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u-wq3USOxxXs; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA3163A0CAC; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JpGrp42JGzDCcx; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 21:35:06 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 21:35:06 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Lars Eggert , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , "emo-dir@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 665440506.092396-cc4146891f993174d5b5f5b850675361 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 20:35:14 -0000 On 2022-02-01, at 21:03, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > Not disagreeing with your point but the problem we discussed that the = last meeting is that there is currently just too much choice and we need = a quick start guide for those who actually just want A (simple) way to = submit a draft=E2=80=A6. OK, so let me try to summarize my point in an actionable way: Pointing to just one X: too little choice Pointing to XML authoring and kramdown-rfc authoring: right level of = choice Pointing to the whole sm=C3=B6rg=C3=A5sbord: too much choice (But links to the sm=C3=B6rg=C3=A5sbord should be actively collected.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Feb 1 13:47:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EE93A1130 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mI4VpMOid1wr for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A22283A112E for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A814096D36 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HI4a7zcBp23p for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [70.18.229.17]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A2054096D30 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Message-Id: <5961DFC8-3B4B-46AB-A7B4-5BA420356F22@staff.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:47:01 -0500 To: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Emo-dir] Notes from 27 January emo-dir teleconference X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 21:47:05 -0000 Hi, Thanks to everyone who was able to join last week.=20 Here are draft (crowdsourced) notes from the session: https://notes.ietf.org/OI6jeXg8TMu5cgKKWsi_GQ These will be uploaded to Datatracker shortly. Please flag any omissions = or errors!. There is no recording of the session. Among a few follow up items listed in the =E2=80=9CAOB=E2=80=9D section, = Karen and I are considering dates for a next teleconference ahead of the = IETF 113 meeting and hope to announce that in the next week or so. Thanks again! -Greg= From nobody Tue Feb 1 15:32:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF88C3A15F4 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwTJ5-kWTatA for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B0A43A15F1 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EC04096D38 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6deQaV1k-fo for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [70.18.229.17]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 488A84096D36 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:32:36 -0500 To: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 23:32:39 -0000 Hi, Here=E2=80=99s a quick start at adapting Alice=E2=80=99s quick start = guides: https://notes.ietf.org/dPyHtRvERdCRDOaLtaA24w (This should be editable when logged in via IETF Datatracker.) A few further items of follow up: a) It would be great to test these out with actual I-D newbies. I=E2=80=99= ll work on that but if anyone has suggestions about individuals to ask, = I=E2=80=99d welcome them. b) These should eventually be incorporated into authors.ietf.org. I=E2=80=99= ll work on that after this group has had some time to offer suggestions. c) As suggested in this thread, I plan to work on a more complete = markdown template to match the RFCXML templates. -Greg From nobody Tue Feb 1 20:26:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637913A2139; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rb2z7pQoXlRV; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FF5E3A2138; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EC2058C4B4; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 05:25:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 0A4A74EA528; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 05:25:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 05:25:59 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Carsten Bormann , "Salz, Rich" , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , Lars Eggert Message-ID: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 04:26:11 -0000 On Tue, Feb 01, 2022 at 07:02:27PM +0100, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > However, for the quick start guide for me the more important questions is what find people easier to use when they are starting as newcomers in the IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) draft. For sure people likely don’t start by installing software on their device, so what they need is an actual template file, a (text) editor, and an online tool for conversion. I would add a reasonable simple number of local install options for xml2rfc and kramdown-rfc2629 to the list. In my experience user satisfaction and productivity goes up when not having to use the web version of the tools. And xml2rfc and kramdown-rfc2629 are installable with few lines of CLI on most systems. Cheers Toerless > > Mirja > > > > > On 1. Feb 2022, at 18:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > On 2022-02-01, at 16:31, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> > >> At the EMODIR call last week, Alice said that statistics show 90% is XML and under 10% is markdown, with a smattering of other things. > > > > I don’t know about 90 % of what, but here’s my statistics of the last 300 days of I-D submissions: > > > > $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | wc > > 3213 3213 189521 > > $ find ~/std/id/ -name \*.xml -mtime -300 | xargs grep -l kramdown | wc > > 925 925 53698 > > > > More like: 29 % of the I-Ds submitted as XML show that they are kramdown-generated. > > > > This simplistic method doesn’t see the drafts that are still being submitted as text (some of which are generated by kramdown-rfc, but then there is Word, nroff, …). It also counts submissions (revisions), not distinct drafts. > > But it is still a useful indicator (*). > > > > Grüße, Carsten > > > > (*) “The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.” > > ― William Gibson > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Emo-dir mailing list > > Emo-dir@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir > > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Feb 2 06:32:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1232A3A1039; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 06:32:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_PH0PR06MB70611788BB39736280D9C799C2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH0PR06MB7061.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a18d98cd-edec-48df-f47f-08d9e658cf58 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Feb 2022 14:32:15.8922 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: jtzTXg0IjlnkUkciQmyH8i8Qd9pJgaHHoNvRX5sfDgFjXhJzy6v4EnVJFyAe+a5NzGEOQ58SBUfcDrDdQ5PylA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO1PR06MB8028 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 14:32:43 -0000 --_000_PH0PR06MB70611788BB39736280D9C799C2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I strongly agree with Mirja here. The problem we were discussing last week = was how to help people get started... quickly... without overwhelming them = with options and choices. I think we need a very limited set of choices in = this instance. At the end of the short quick start guides... we can point t= o more information and detailed instructions elsewhere. Remember this can always evolve as we learn more. Done is better than perfe= ct. Karen ________________________________ From: Emo-dir on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 3:03 PM To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Salz, Rich ; Lars Eggert ; Alice Rus= so ; Jay Daley ; emo-dir@ietf.org = Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides Not disagreeing with your point but the problem we discussed that the last = meeting is that there is currently just too much choice and we need a quick= start guide for those who actually just want A (simple) way to submit a dr= aft=85. > On 1. Feb 2022, at 20:41, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 1. Feb 2022, at 19:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> >> I believe her numbers were on publish RFCs, not Internet-Drafts, and the= assumption was already that the number is higher (and likely) increasing f= or drafts. Thanks for providing this number! > > Then I=92m not sure what that number expresses. > I write all my IETF documents in kramdown-rfc. > I never give anything but the generated XML to the RFC editor (well, they= could extract the markdown if they wanted to, but I know that their proces= ses center around XML). > Am I in the 10 % or the 90 %? > > I think the draft submission percentage indicates where people do their a= uthoring work. > >> However, for the quick start guide for me the more important questions i= s what find people easier to use when they are starting as newcomers in the= IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) draft. For sure pe= ople likely don=92t start by installing software on their device, so what t= hey need is an actual template file, a (text) editor, and an online tool fo= r conversion. > > I=92m not sure newness in the IETF correlates with the level of affinity = to software production techniques. > There will be IETF newbs who will be put off by an environment that favor= s pure Web tools over locally installable tools that are amenable to source= control, Makefiles etc. > (And, conversely, there are old hands who like Web tools a lot.) > > The only thing that is true over the IETF as a whole is that different po= ckets are different. > So, as I=92d recommend in general, design for choice. > (But not unreasonable levels of choice.) > > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir _______________________________________________ Emo-dir mailing list Emo-dir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir --_000_PH0PR06MB70611788BB39736280D9C799C2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I strongly agree with Mirja here. The problem we were discussing last week = was how to help people get started... quickly... without overwhelming them = with options and choices. I think we need a very limited set of choices in = this instance. At the end of the short quick start guides... we can point to more information and detailed = instructions elsewhere.

Remember this can always evolve as we learn more. Done is better than perfe= ct.

Karen
From: Emo-dir <emo-dir-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net&g= t;
Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 3:03 PM
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Lars Eggert <lars@eggert= .org>; Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com>; Jay Daley <exec-director@= ietf.org>; emo-dir@ietf.org <emo-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides
 
Not disagreeing with your point but the problem we= discussed that the last meeting is that there is currently just too much c= hoice and we need a quick start guide for those who actually just want A (s= imple) way to submit a draft=85.



> On 1. Feb 2022, at 20:41, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br> >
> On 1. Feb 2022, at 19:02, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>= wrote:
>>
>> I believe her numbers were on publish RFCs, not Internet-Drafts, a= nd the assumption was already that the number is higher (and likely) increa= sing for drafts. Thanks for providing this number!
>
> Then I=92m not sure what that number expresses.
> I write all my IETF documents in kramdown-rfc.
> I never give anything but the generated XML to the RFC editor (well, t= hey could extract the markdown if they wanted to, but I know that their pro= cesses center around XML).
> Am I in the 10 % or the 90 %?
>
> I think the draft submission percentage indicates where people do thei= r authoring work.
>
>> However, for the quick start guide for me the more important quest= ions is what find people easier to use when they are starting as newcomers = in the IETF for their very first (and in some cases even only) draft. For s= ure people likely don=92t start by installing software on their device, so what they need is an actual template file, a = (text) editor, and an online tool for conversion.
>
> I=92m not sure newness in the IETF correlates with the level of affini= ty to software production techniques.
> There will be IETF newbs who will be put off by an environment that fa= vors pure Web tools over locally installable tools that are amenable to sou= rce control, Makefiles etc.
> (And, conversely, there are old hands who like Web tools a lot.)
>
> The only thing that is true over the IETF as a whole is that different= pockets are different.
> So, as I=92d recommend in general, design for choice.
> (But not unreasonable levels of choice.)
>
> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emo-dir mailing list
> Emo-dir@ietf.org
> https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir

_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir
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boundary="_000_PH0PR06MB70616D96F3D8BEBD171C970BC2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH0PR06MB7061.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d824d81b-6937-454d-ee6c-08d9e659baed X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Feb 2022 14:38:51.1487 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ErsGZT/C1R7HJOoUm1cuqUcCg4NGD9WdCWLzYkXU/Q/Z8J7lTTm+5MAeQyilhNZG50N1vI7IDf5vkHGSGEHg3A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR06MB6471 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 14:39:00 -0000 --_000_PH0PR06MB70616D96F3D8BEBD171C970BC2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Greg (and of course Alice!) I did a quick read and made a minor edit, but otherwise I haven't tested th= em. I really like the conciseness of them. Karen ________________________________ From: Emo-dir on behalf of Greg Wood Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:32 PM To: emo-dir@ietf.org Subject: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up Hi, Here=92s a quick start at adapting Alice=92s quick start guides: https://notes.ietf.org/dPyHtRvERdCRDOaLtaA24w (This should be editable when logged in via IETF Datatracker.) A few further items of follow up: a) It would be great to test these out with actual I-D newbies. I=92ll work= on that but if anyone has suggestions about individuals to ask, I=92d welc= ome them. b) These should eventually be incorporated into authors.ietf.org. I=92ll wo= rk on that after this group has had some time to offer suggestions. c) As suggested in this thread, I plan to work on a more complete markdown = template to match the RFCXML templates. -Greg _______________________________________________ Emo-dir mailing list Emo-dir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir --_000_PH0PR06MB70616D96F3D8BEBD171C970BC2279PH0PR06MB7061namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Greg (and of course Alice!)

I did a quick read and made a minor edit, but otherwise I haven't tested th= em. I really like the conciseness of them.

Karen
From: Emo-dir <emo-dir-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Wood <ghwood@staff.ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:32 PM
To: emo-dir@ietf.org <emo-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up
 
Hi,

Here=92s a quick start at adapting Alice=92s quick start guides:

https://notes.iet= f.org/dPyHtRvERdCRDOaLtaA24w

(This should be editable when logged in via IETF Datatracker.)

A few further items of follow up:

a) It would be great to test these out with actual I-D newbies. I=92ll work= on that but if anyone has suggestions about individuals to ask, I=92d welc= ome them.

b) These should eventually be incorporated into authors.ietf.org. I=92ll wo= rk on that after this group has had some time to offer suggestions.

c) As suggested in this thread, I plan to work on a more complete markdown = template to match the RFCXML templates.

-Greg

_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir
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boundary="_000_LO3P265MB2092E40771B158DE7737DB75C2279LO3P265MB2092GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO3P265MB2092.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3a2369fd-80f0-44c8-6369-08d9e66d0c9d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Feb 2022 16:57:08.6475 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4/Se45pilgH3xU3oztTVUMRuPlTw3ZkEGuH6ocsEP6ymWYJBA5AWOiGYgOPrHO7BunwAP6wbxIDiHQMY2K/OWajnql/KBYFoob9EG64ggpo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWXP265MB5201 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 16:57:21 -0000 --_000_LO3P265MB2092E40771B158DE7737DB75C2279LO3P265MB2092GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 Feb 2022, at 14:32, Karen O'Donoghue odonoghue@isoc.org wrote: > I strongly agree with Mirja here. The problem we were discussing last wee= k was how to help people get started... quickly... without overwhelming the= m with options and choices. I think we need a very limited set of choices i= n this instance. At the end of the short quick start guides... we can point= to more information and detailed instructions elsewhere. > > Remember this can always evolve as we learn more. Done is better than per= fect. I agree that the emphasis should be on simplicity, although I can see the t= emptation to offer multiple options given there are different types of new = authors that may benefit from this guidance. To simplify things, it may be= useful to have something like: "Software developers familiar with GitHub should start here ... (a single p= ath with as few steps as possible to get to draft submission) Technical authors with experience of markdown should start here ... Technical authors familiar with XML should start here ... " Etc No doubt agreement on appropriate labels for the various categories will ne= ed discussion, the idea would be to point to a single path for each one fro= m start to finish, potentially signposting additional material at the end s= uch as more sophisticated templates and tools for those that aspire to more= advanced documents. NB I think that we should be cautious with paths that= are dependent on tools being loaded onto devices as this may present a pro= blem for some enterprise policies, although this should be fine as part of = a list of additional material and tools. We are still missing something suited to less sophisticated potential autho= rs that may nevertheless be able to offer valuable contributions including,= for example, those from civil society, industry bodies and other groups of= end-users not versed in the use of GitHub, Markdown etc. The current opti= ons are still likely to be perceived as a significant barrier to entry for = some compared to, for example, a step-by-step guide to producing an I-D usi= ng Word. Others may disagree but I firmly believe it is important to make = it possible for such groups to participate if the IETF is to diversify the = membership beyond the tech and telecoms sectors. Andrew --_000_LO3P265MB2092E40771B158DE7737DB75C2279LO3P265MB2092GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 2 Feb 2022, at 14:32, Karen = O'Donoghue odonoghue@isoc.org wrote:<= o:p>

&n= bsp;

> I = strongly agree with Mirja here. The problem we were discussing last week wa= s how to help people get started... quickly... without overwhelming them wi= th options and choices. I think we need a very limited set of choices in this instance. At the end of the short qu= ick start guides... we can point to more information and detailed instructi= ons elsewhere.

>

> Re= member this can always evolve as we learn more. Done is better than perfect= .

 

 

I agree that the emphasis should be on simplicity, a= lthough I can see the temptation to offer multiple options given there are = different types of new authors that may benefit from this guidance.  T= o simplify things, it may be useful to have something like:

 

“Software develop= ers familiar with GitHub should start here … (a single path with as f= ew steps as possible to get to draft submission)

 

Technical authors with = experience of markdown should start here …

 

Technical authors famil= iar with XML should start here … “

 

Etc

 

No doubt agreement on appropriate labels for the var= ious categories will need discussion, the idea would be to point to a singl= e path for each one from start to finish, potentially signposting additiona= l material at the end such as more sophisticated templates and tools for those that aspire to more advanced d= ocuments.  NB I think that we should be cautious with paths that are d= ependent on tools being loaded onto devices as this may present a problem f= or some enterprise policies, although this should be fine as part of a list of additional material and tools.

 

We are still missing something suited to less sophis= ticated potential authors that may nevertheless be able to offer valuable c= ontributions including, for example, those from civil society, industry bod= ies and other groups of end-users not versed in the use of GitHub, Markdown etc.  The current options a= re still likely to be perceived as a significant barrier to entry for some = compared to, for example, a step-by-step guide to producing an I-D using Wo= rd.  Others may disagree but I firmly believe it is important to make it possible for such groups to participate= if the IETF is to diversify the membership beyond the tech and telecoms se= ctors. 

 

 

Andrew

 

 

 

--_000_LO3P265MB2092E40771B158DE7737DB75C2279LO3P265MB2092GBRP_-- From nobody Wed Feb 2 10:14:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7AD3A18E6; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HsSKHKmXB90; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A9E53A18DE; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:13:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03EF758C4B4; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 19:13:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id E4A9A4EA536; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 19:13:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 19:13:47 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Andrew Campling Cc: Karen O'Donoghue , Mirja Kuehlewind , Carsten Bormann , "Salz, Rich" , "emo-dir@ietf.org" , Alice Russo , Jay Daley , Lars Eggert Message-ID: References: <51F3DD06-DA88-4DBD-ABBA-1CD0972326A4@amsl.com> <2FBDEFE9-CE5B-4CD3-BE20-670056E836A4@eggert.org> <3EADD8F6-8AC9-444D-B69A-063A9C5E24FA@ietf.org> <3819AF79-DEEB-470F-92E1-C279AE3205E6@tzi.org> <6BD7B194-BFF3-41B5-A6E5-FEC90F6EF095@kuehlewind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] quick-start guides X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 18:14:03 -0000 I think the first target is authors familiar with nothing writing new draft. -> kramdown over the web Second target is IMHO technical authors familiar with nothing joining an existing XML draft. -> XML over the web. Third target is technical authors that need to be able to work offline (planes, trains, offices (with bad firewalls), beaches, etc. pp). -> local install of kramdown, xml2rfc - and i fear references libraries. Everything else is IMHO below the first success goal line (but then i am intentionally thinking someone who can already do github can help herself a lot more than above audiences...) Cheers Toerless On Wed, Feb 02, 2022 at 04:57:08PM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote: > On 2 Feb 2022, at 14:32, Karen O'Donoghue odonoghue@isoc.org wrote: > > > I strongly agree with Mirja here. The problem we were discussing last week was how to help people get started... quickly... without overwhelming them with options and choices. I think we need a very limited set of choices in this instance. At the end of the short quick start guides... we can point to more information and detailed instructions elsewhere. > > > > Remember this can always evolve as we learn more. Done is better than perfect. > > > I agree that the emphasis should be on simplicity, although I can see the temptation to offer multiple options given there are different types of new authors that may benefit from this guidance. To simplify things, it may be useful to have something like: > > "Software developers familiar with GitHub should start here ... (a single path with as few steps as possible to get to draft submission) > > Technical authors with experience of markdown should start here ... > > Technical authors familiar with XML should start here ... " > > Etc > > No doubt agreement on appropriate labels for the various categories will need discussion, the idea would be to point to a single path for each one from start to finish, potentially signposting additional material at the end such as more sophisticated templates and tools for those that aspire to more advanced documents. NB I think that we should be cautious with paths that are dependent on tools being loaded onto devices as this may present a problem for some enterprise policies, although this should be fine as part of a list of additional material and tools. > > We are still missing something suited to less sophisticated potential authors that may nevertheless be able to offer valuable contributions including, for example, those from civil society, industry bodies and other groups of end-users not versed in the use of GitHub, Markdown etc. The current options are still likely to be perceived as a significant barrier to entry for some compared to, for example, a step-by-step guide to producing an I-D using Word. Others may disagree but I firmly believe it is important to make it possible for such groups to participate if the IETF is to diversify the membership beyond the tech and telecoms sectors. > > > Andrew > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Feb 10 15:26:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6573A0DE9 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 557GyA9tJ2fk for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4990C3A0DE8 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3784113626; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmIfqQsOh9PC; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [70.18.229.17]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6BB44113624; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:26:23 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 18:26:22 -0500 Cc: Karen O'Donoghue To: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Emo-dir] emodir virtual interim meeting 24 February 2022 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:26:26 -0000 Hello! There will be a virtual interim meeting of the Education Mentoring and = Outreach (emodir) directorate on 24 February 2022 at 1700 UTC. Zoom = details are provided at the end of this message.=20 A main point of discussion will be the emodir plan for 2022. Please come = and share your ideas and experiences to help new and experienced = participants be more effective working in the IETF. The draft agenda is: =E2=80=A2 Welcome and administrative details =E2=80=A2 Agenda bash =E2=80=A2 Update on action items from 27 Jan 2022 meeting =E2=80=A2 Review emodir 2022 plan =E2=80=A2 AOB As a reminder, emodir strives to enhance the productivity of IETF work, = expand the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF, and enable the IETF = to facilitate technical development and innovation in the Internet.=20 Feel free to contact us at emodir-chairs@ietf.org for more information. Sincerely, Karen O=E2=80=99Donoghue and Greg Wood emodir coordinators +++ Zoom Details Topic: IETF emodir meeting Time: Feb 24, 2022 05:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time Join Zoom Meeting https://ietf.zoom.us/j/3671772413?pwd=3DTCsyWnZaK3hRWFg3UmZkY2tXdlNMUT09 Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 Passcode: IETF One tap mobile +13126266799,,3671772413# US (Chicago) +16465588656,,3671772413# US (New York) Dial by your location +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) +1 646 558 8656 US (New York) +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) +1 720 707 2699 US (Denver) +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 Find your local number: https://ietf.zoom.us/u/kcGPVKZBq= From nobody Thu Feb 10 15:58:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietf.org Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FC43A13A7; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.44.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164453750796.10464.16964967237267093308@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:58:28 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Emo-dir] Education, Mentoring and Outreach Directorate (emodir) DIR Virtual Meeting: 2022-02-24 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:58:28 -0000 The Education, Mentoring and Outreach Directorate (emodir) Directorate will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-02-24 from 17:00 to 18:00 UTC. Zoom details are provided at the end of this message. A main point of discussion will be the emodir plan for 2022. Please come and share your ideas and experiences to help new and experienced participants be more effective working in the IETF. The draft agenda is: • Welcome and administrative details • Agenda bash • Update on action items from 27 Jan 2022 meeting • Review emodir 2022 plan • AOB As a reminder, emodir strives to enhance the productivity of IETF work, expand the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF, and enable the IETF to facilitate technical development and innovation in the Internet. Feel free to contact us at emodir-chairs@ietf.org for more information. Sincerely, Karen O’Donoghue and Greg Wood emodir coordinators +++ Zoom Details Topic: IETF emodir meeting Time: Feb 24, 2022 05:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time Join Zoom Meeting https://ietf.zoom.us/j/3671772413?pwd=TCsyWnZaK3hRWFg3UmZkY2tXdlNMUT09 Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 Passcode: IETF One tap mobile +13126266799,,3671772413# US (Chicago) +16465588656,,3671772413# US (New York) Dial by your location +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) +1 646 558 8656 US (New York) +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) +1 720 707 2699 US (Denver) +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 Find your local number: https://ietf.zoom.us/u/kcGPVKZBq From nobody Fri Feb 18 09:18:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietf.org Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8033A0B60; Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:18:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: emo-dir@ietf.org, emodir-chairs@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, lflynn@amsl.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.45.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164520469144.20988.4020981351085852981@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:18:11 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Emo-dir] emodir - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 113 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:18:12 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Liz Flynn, on behalf of the emodir working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Education, Mentoring and Outreach Directorate Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Liz Flynn Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: People who must be present: Karen O'Donoghue Lars Eggert Greg Wood Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Feb 23 16:24:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D76E3A07C0 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tpLMmtJz1NPu for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FD773A11E6 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD8D4092791; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zaljxeiN7-gr; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1421409278F; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C42E67FA-FC8C-467B-9889-B59503145C4A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:23:49 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Greg Wood , "emo-dir@ietf.org" To: Karen O'Donoghue References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 00:24:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C42E67FA-FC8C-467B-9889-B59503145C4A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 To close this out I=E2=80=99ve added these to the front of the Getting = Started page on the authors site https://authors.ietf.org/en/getting-started Jay > On 3/02/2022, at 3:38 AM, Karen O'Donoghue wrote: >=20 > Thanks Greg (and of course Alice!) >=20 > I did a quick read and made a minor edit, but otherwise I haven't = tested them. I really like the conciseness of them.=20 >=20 > Karen > From: Emo-dir on behalf of Greg Wood = > Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:32 PM > To: emo-dir@ietf.org > Subject: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring quick start guides follow up > =20 > Hi, >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s a quick start at adapting Alice=E2=80=99s quick start = guides: >=20 > https://notes.ietf.org/dPyHtRvERdCRDOaLtaA24w = >=20 > (This should be editable when logged in via IETF Datatracker.) >=20 > A few further items of follow up: >=20 > a) It would be great to test these out with actual I-D newbies. I=E2=80=99= ll work on that but if anyone has suggestions about individuals to ask, = I=E2=80=99d welcome them. >=20 > b) These should eventually be incorporated into authors.ietf.org. = I=E2=80=99ll work on that after this group has had some time to offer = suggestions. >=20 > c) As suggested in this thread, I plan to work on a more complete = markdown template to match the RFCXML templates. >=20 > -Greg >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir = > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_C42E67FA-FC8C-467B-9889-B59503145C4A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 To = close this out I=E2=80=99ve added these to the front of the Getting = Started page on the authors site

= https://authors.ietf.org/en/getting-started

Jay
On = 3/02/2022, at 3:38 AM, Karen O'Donoghue <odonoghue@isoc.org> = wrote:

Thanks Greg (and of course = Alice!)

I = did a quick read and made a minor edit, but otherwise I haven't tested = them. I really like the conciseness of them. 

Karen
From: Emo-dir <emo-dir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Wood = <ghwood@staff.ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 = 6:32 PM
To: emo-dir@ietf.org <emo-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: [Emo-dir] I-D authoring = quick start guides follow up
 
Hi,

Here=E2=80=99s a quick start at adapting Alice=E2=80=99s = quick start guides:

https://notes.ietf.org/dPyHtRvERdCRDOaLtaA24w

(This should be editable when logged in via = IETF Datatracker.)

A few further items of = follow up:

a) It would be great to test = these out with actual I-D newbies. I=E2=80=99ll work on that but if = anyone has suggestions about individuals to ask, I=E2=80=99d welcome = them.

b) These should eventually be = incorporated into authors.ietf.org. I=E2=80=99ll work on that after this = group has had some time to offer suggestions.

c) As suggested in this thread, I plan to work on a more = complete markdown template to match the RFCXML templates.

-Greg

_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir
_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_C42E67FA-FC8C-467B-9889-B59503145C4A-- From nobody Wed Feb 23 18:36:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5A73A133C for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SbjeZqZttj41 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EFD03A1333 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554474092791; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yblW39YKRPLW; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [70.18.229.17]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17E4E409278F; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Greg Wood In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 21:36:48 -0500 Cc: Karen O'Donoghue Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <85FB250D-AE90-4F90-B13A-AF5C8846C206@staff.ietf.org> References: To: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] emodir virtual interim meeting 24 February 2022 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 02:36:54 -0000 Hi, A quick reminder about the meeting scheduled for tomorrow. A document = mapping out the agenda in a bit more detail and with links is available = at: https://notes.ietf.org/TRPppqAIQKq_UPR3hg5L8g -Greg & Karen > On 10, Feb2022, at 18:26, Greg Wood wrote: >=20 > Hello! >=20 > There will be a virtual interim meeting of the Education Mentoring and = Outreach (emodir) directorate on 24 February 2022 at 1700 UTC. Zoom = details are provided at the end of this message.=20 >=20 > A main point of discussion will be the emodir plan for 2022. Please = come and share your ideas and experiences to help new and experienced = participants be more effective working in the IETF. >=20 > The draft agenda is: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Welcome and administrative details > =E2=80=A2 Agenda bash > =E2=80=A2 Update on action items from 27 Jan 2022 meeting > =E2=80=A2 Review emodir 2022 plan > =E2=80=A2 AOB >=20 > As a reminder, emodir strives to enhance the productivity of IETF = work, expand the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF, and enable the = IETF to facilitate technical development and innovation in the Internet.=20= >=20 > Feel free to contact us at emodir-chairs@ietf.org for more = information. >=20 > Sincerely, >=20 > Karen O=E2=80=99Donoghue and Greg Wood > emodir coordinators >=20 > +++ >=20 > Zoom Details >=20 > Topic: IETF emodir meeting > Time: Feb 24, 2022 05:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time >=20 > Join Zoom Meeting > https://ietf.zoom.us/j/3671772413?pwd=3DTCsyWnZaK3hRWFg3UmZkY2tXdlNMUT09= >=20 > Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 > Passcode: IETF > One tap mobile > +13126266799,,3671772413# US (Chicago) > +16465588656,,3671772413# US (New York) >=20 > Dial by your location > +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) > +1 646 558 8656 US (New York) > +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) > +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) > +1 720 707 2699 US (Denver) > +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) > Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 > Find your local number: https://ietf.zoom.us/u/kcGPVKZBq From nobody Wed Feb 23 19:08:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D913A0D89 for ; 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Wed, 23 Feb 2022 19:08:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <85FB250D-AE90-4F90-B13A-AF5C8846C206@staff.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <85FB250D-AE90-4F90-B13A-AF5C8846C206@staff.ietf.org> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 08:38:00 +0530 Message-ID: To: Greg Wood Cc: emo-dir@ietf.org, "Karen O'Donoghue" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6563805d8bae580" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] emodir virtual interim meeting 24 February 2022 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 03:08:43 -0000 --000000000000f6563805d8bae580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, Unfortunately, I will not be able to join the call. Thanks for incorporating my suggestion into the 2022 discussion draft [1 = ]. Looking forward to the feedback from you and others. Thanks! Dhruv [1] https://notes.ietf.org/hN0tghi3QZOq0WRNxaBANg#IETF-Potential-Participants On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 8:06 AM Greg Wood wrote: > Hi, > > A quick reminder about the meeting scheduled for tomorrow. A document > mapping out the agenda in a bit more detail and with links is available a= t: > > https://notes.ietf.org/TRPppqAIQKq_UPR3hg5L8g > > -Greg & Karen > > > On 10, Feb2022, at 18:26, Greg Wood wrote: > > > > Hello! > > > > There will be a virtual interim meeting of the Education Mentoring and > Outreach (emodir) directorate on 24 February 2022 at 1700 UTC. Zoom detai= ls > are provided at the end of this message. > > > > A main point of discussion will be the emodir plan for 2022. Please com= e > and share your ideas and experiences to help new and experienced > participants be more effective working in the IETF. > > > > The draft agenda is: > > > > =E2=80=A2 Welcome and administrative details > > =E2=80=A2 Agenda bash > > =E2=80=A2 Update on action items from 27 Jan 2022 meeting > > =E2=80=A2 Review emodir 2022 plan > > =E2=80=A2 AOB > > > > As a reminder, emodir strives to enhance the productivity of IETF work, > expand the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF, and enable the IETF t= o > facilitate technical development and innovation in the Internet. > > > > Feel free to contact us at emodir-chairs@ietf.org for more information. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Karen O=E2=80=99Donoghue and Greg Wood > > emodir coordinators > > > > +++ > > > > Zoom Details > > > > Topic: IETF emodir meeting > > Time: Feb 24, 2022 05:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time > > > > Join Zoom Meeting > > https://ietf.zoom.us/j/3671772413?pwd=3DTCsyWnZaK3hRWFg3UmZkY2tXdlNMUT0= 9 > > > > Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 > > Passcode: IETF > > One tap mobile > > +13126266799,,3671772413# US (Chicago) > > +16465588656,,3671772413# US (New York) > > > > Dial by your location > > +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) > > +1 646 558 8656 US (New York) > > +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) > > +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) > > +1 720 707 2699 US (Denver) > > +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) > > Meeting ID: 367 177 2413 > > Find your local number: https://ietf.zoom.us/u/kcGPVKZBq > > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir > --000000000000f6563805d8bae580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg,=C2=A0

Unfortunately= , I will not be able to join the call. Thanks for incorporating my suggesti= on into the 2022 discussion draft [1]. Looking forward to th= e feedback from you and others.=C2=A0
Thanks!=C2=A0
Dhruv

[1]=C2=A0https://notes.ietf.org/hN0tghi3QZOq= 0WRNxaBANg#IETF-Potential-Participants

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 8:0= 6 AM Greg Wood <ghwood@staff.ie= tf.org> wrote:
Hi,

A quick reminder about the meeting scheduled for tomorrow. A document mappi= ng out the agenda in a bit more detail and with links is available at:

https://notes.ietf.org/TRPppqAIQKq_UPR3hg5L8g

-Greg & Karen

> On 10, Feb2022, at 18:26, Greg Wood <ghwood@staff.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> There will be a virtual interim meeting of the Education Mentoring and= Outreach (emodir) directorate on 24 February 2022 at 1700 UTC. Zoom detail= s are provided at the end of this message.
>
> A main point of discussion will be the emodir plan for 2022. Please co= me and share your ideas and experiences to help new and experienced partici= pants be more effective working in the IETF.
>
> The draft agenda is:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Welcome and administrative details=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Agenda bash
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Update on action items from 27 Jan= 2022 meeting
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Review emodir 2022 plan
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 AOB
>
> As a reminder, emodir strives to enhance the productivity of IETF work= , expand the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF, and enable the IETF t= o facilitate technical development and innovation in the Internet.
>
> Feel free to contact us at emodir-chairs@ietf.org for more information.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Karen O=E2=80=99Donoghue and Greg Wood
> emodir coordinators
>
> +++
>
> Zoom Details
>
> Topic: IETF emodir meeting
> Time: Feb 24, 2022 05:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time
>
> Join Zoom Meeting
> https://ietf.zoom.us/j/= 3671772413?pwd=3DTCsyWnZaK3hRWFg3UmZkY2tXdlNMUT09
>
> Meeting ID: 367 177 2413
> Passcode: IETF
> One tap mobile
> +13126266799,,3671772413# US (Chicago)
> +16465588656,,3671772413# US (New York)
>
> Dial by your location
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 646 558 8656 US (New York)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 720 707 2699 US (Denver)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
> Meeting ID: 367 177 2413
> Find your local number: https://ietf.zoom.us/u/kcGPVKZBq
_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir
--000000000000f6563805d8bae580-- From nobody Wed Feb 23 23:40:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emo-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275A23A08F6 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 23:40:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yb5ssO7a_aiC for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 23:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 103883A08CC for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2022 23:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:7869:6e33:4bad:4f76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D60F1D24AB; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:40:16 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1645688416; bh=IC65xXl1Pz1kZcMmmNiM63alXSEVdkRK8RK3fjaDhB8=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=okKfCPTLN7foRiBm5cBJK4OMkumaczOlvSopXMo6ImC0H0dXZXTa9av8N+IhhmcSu z789iHxXbsB+2I/rq3wKBr+P0COv3CS83Ge3gsGcobheI/7S52Y/7W63qSGI5Ne5eA uwbHrrMl5iVCAPu2kmzP94IBdrB59NhbZL06//MU= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8759A822-BE77-4C20-8121-6C1B758CBABE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <85FB250D-AE90-4F90-B13A-AF5C8846C206@staff.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:40:15 +0200 Cc: emo-dir@ietf.org, Karen O'Donoghue Message-Id: <5DB0B63C-4735-4D2C-819F-46C965E644AD@eggert.org> References: <85FB250D-AE90-4F90-B13A-AF5C8846C206@staff.ietf.org> To: Greg Wood X-MailScanner-ID: 9D60F1D24AB.A5D63 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emo-dir] emodir virtual interim meeting 24 February 2022 X-BeenThere: emo-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Education, Mentoring & Outreach Directorate" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:40:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8759A822-BE77-4C20-8121-6C1B758CBABE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-2-24, at 4:36, Greg Wood wrote: > A quick reminder about the meeting scheduled for tomorrow. A document = mapping out the agenda in a bit more detail and with links is available = at: >=20 > https://notes.ietf.org/TRPppqAIQKq_UPR3hg5L8g I just realized this conflicts with the IETF/IEEE coordination call - = sorry I didn't realize this earlier. It might mean you will have fewer = IESG folks participating than normal. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_8759A822-BE77-4C20-8121-6C1B758CBABE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmIXNl8ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd38hAAhlXHmdWBLeVPpzn3KwRAF9tGWTWqV/8vTYpvY1aNy1yXNfV19SOO1hi4 u9EQIhzgWllLA7BaWojUsahUvUjx4AZIhN1E90XkdoeMpxOqlvc2alGFgqxkNPE+ lv9GNJtj2AdfvTZEB04wb1oaAqJxbX+BtmklwZSGxkT+HtJa2waGsYeeHh1IrSLZ /GYixCXNujvVDIPLxIfDTaWHUQY97/eeqPHDaOiHq6xv+dmggiOsgyXdyCDP8JbF 4hou8L1ggwWjJpaLSXA+7JQHnDIiDCKKWZk/ET3zjS48kBcHgPnmBV9LB/48b9P/ SqVd9JssxuLaLHXaVVmUvmzclJ0omCQw6yg+amzpz/S8YSM8piRnAPTSJybTbpOA x7QUMyJ0BNjAr9OJodOE7+mfb8MfS7+9O9Gquqv/BxVnoM2fCVGc1tfC4G6BCq0N Z77IYiTcv56VETDUulzbxzjO/dPFkorRqU1FraVBD1YP/RT3fpIy3U3todEGycdH tqc8B3y6pj2/hZdKevU9e0AV/2zpv8Url645ujlvhe8OlcFWSjqxabbPlwbPFKSb MfPa7iqVFo448EU5oH9LUQgdRKrRZuJBWD6BWgGZT9TThloNomQz0mkqvsPNuH02 e0yLpKM9JZWZi7OV5ZvactKA37MYCcjxKO9Y12qCWDmdLuO15Is= =4U/U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8759A822-BE77-4C20-8121-6C1B758CBABE--