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Subject: [Jsonpath] September interim meeting poll
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As many key people were not available to attend our meeting at IETF 111, =
we=E2=80=99d now like to ask the working group for their availability =
for an interim meeting around the second week of September starting =
Monday 13th. If this isn=E2=80=99t feasible for you, please let us know =
and we can discuss or expand the polling.

The Doodle poll is here https://doodle.com/poll/r64ztqbbkc9b65qv and =
we=E2=80=99ll close it in approximately two weeks time pending =
people=E2=80=99s responses.

Thanks

Tim & James
JSONPath Chairs=


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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 15:07:24 +0100
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Subject: [Jsonpath] Partial determinism of the descendant selector (..)
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This topic is covered in issue 103
<https://github.com/ietf-wg-jsonpath/draft-ietf-jsonpath-base/issues/103>,
which seems to have stalled, so let me put the main options to the mailing
list to try to discern any consensus.

Regardless of the detailed language, please could you indicate which of
these options you favour:

A. Don't tie down the non-determinism of .. at all

B. Require .. to visit arrays in array order and visit nodes before their
descendants

C. Some other option involving B with the option of A or A with the option
of B, using some kind of language TBD.

D. Something else, in which case please say what.

Regards,

Glyn

--0000000000001a035105c9adb972
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This topic is covered in <a href=3D"https://github.co=
m/ietf-wg-jsonpath/draft-ietf-jsonpath-base/issues/103">issue 103</a>, whic=
h seems to have stalled, so let me put the main options to the mailing list=
 to try to discern any consensus.</div><div><p>Regardless of the detailed l=
anguage, please could you indicate which of these options you favour:</p>
<p>A.  Don&#39;t tie down the non-determinism of <code>..</code> at all</p>=
<p>
B. Require <code>..</code> to visit arrays in array order and visit nodes b=
efore their descendants</p><p>
C. Some other option involving B with the option of A or A with the option =
of B, using some kind of language TBD.</p><p>D. Something else, in which ca=
se please say what.<br></p><p>Regards,</p><p>Glyn<br></p></div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div></div>

--0000000000001a035105c9adb972--


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On 2021-08-16, at 16:07, Glyn Normington =
<glyn.normington.work@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> This topic is covered in issue 103, which seems to have stalled, so =
let me put the main options to the mailing list to try to discern any =
consensus.
> Regardless of the detailed language, please could you indicate which =
of these options you favour:
>=20
> A. Don't tie down the non-determinism of .. at all
>=20
> B. Require .. to visit arrays in array order and visit nodes before =
their descendants

Yes.
(There is no order in maps, so this is as deterministic as it can get.)
BTW, the term =E2=80=9Cpre-order=E2=80=9D [1] is in wide use as a handy =
term for "visit nodes before their descendants=E2=80=9D (we would still =
define it that way).

> C. Some other option involving B with the option of A or A with the =
option of B, using some kind of language TBD.

Yes, as well :-).
We haven=E2=80=99t really discussed levels of compliance, and a version =
of =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t return .. in order=E2=80=9D could be a form =
of conditional compliance.
*If* we think we need this to drag some implementations along.
(That is, I=E2=80=99d like to hear arguments of the form =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=
=99d lose foomatic=E2=80=99s JSONPath implementation because they make a =
point of returning arrays in reverse order on Fridays=E2=80=9D before we =
load ourselves with conditional compliance.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_traversal#Pre-order,_NLR
(This article talks about binary trees only, probably because they want =
to discuss in-order as well, which only makes sense for binary trees.)

> D. Something else, in which case please say what.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Glyn
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Jsonpath mailing list
> Jsonpath@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath


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In-Reply-To: <29436C3A-7AE6-454E-A6D2-D6514906521D@tzi.org>
From: Glyn Normington <glyn.normington.work@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 11:43:08 +0100
Message-ID: <CANH0Gb+VuWkNubiSmpmwCry6+YaOA=ohR8Xd7sWH8FLbE=kLwA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: jsonpath@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/jsonpath/bUxStPPhptCK5kGqrV3CPg51_Mc>
Subject: Re: [Jsonpath] Partial determinism of the descendant selector (..)
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 15:50, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> On 2021-08-16, at 16:07, Glyn Normington <glyn.normington.work@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > This topic is covered in issue 103, which seems to have stalled, so let
> me put the main options to the mailing list to try to discern any consens=
us.
> > Regardless of the detailed language, please could you indicate which of
> these options you favour:
> >
> > A. Don't tie down the non-determinism of .. at all
> >
> > B. Require .. to visit arrays in array order and visit nodes before
> their descendants
>
> Yes.
> (There is no order in maps, so this is as deterministic as it can get.)
> BTW, the term =E2=80=9Cpre-order=E2=80=9D [1] is in wide use as a handy t=
erm for "visit
> nodes before their descendants=E2=80=9D (we would still define it that wa=
y).
>

At the risk of another digression, pre-order is more prescriptive than
"visit nodes before their descendants". Take this example from [1]:

[image: image.png]


Pre-order traversal would be "F, B, A, D, C, E, G, I, H", but "visit nodes
before their descendants=E2=80=9D allows more possibilities, such as "F, B,=
 G, A,
D, C, I, E, H".

By being less prescriptive, I was trying to allow for parallel
implementations.


>
> > C. Some other option involving B with the option of A or A with the
> option of B, using some kind of language TBD.
>
> Yes, as well :-).
> We haven=E2=80=99t really discussed levels of compliance, and a version o=
f
> =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t return .. in order=E2=80=9D could be a form of c=
onditional compliance.
> *If* we think we need this to drag some implementations along.
> (That is, I=E2=80=99d like to hear arguments of the form =E2=80=9CWe=E2=
=80=99d lose foomatic=E2=80=99s
> JSONPath implementation because they make a point of returning arrays in
> reverse order on Fridays=E2=80=9D before we load ourselves with condition=
al
> compliance.)
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_traversal#Pre-order,_NLR
> (This article talks about binary trees only, probably because they want t=
o
> discuss in-order as well, which only makes sense for binary trees.)
>
> > D. Something else, in which case please say what.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Glyn
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jsonpath mailing list
> > Jsonpath@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 15:50, Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
cabo@tzi.org">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2021-08-16, at 16:07, Glyn Normington &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:glyn.normington.work@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">glyn.normin=
gton.work@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This topic is covered in issue 103, which seems to have stalled, so le=
t me put the main options to the mailing list to try to discern any consens=
us.<br>
&gt; Regardless of the detailed language, please could you indicate which o=
f these options you favour:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A. Don&#39;t tie down the non-determinism of .. at all<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; B. Require .. to visit arrays in array order and visit nodes before th=
eir descendants<br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
(There is no order in maps, so this is as deterministic as it can get.)<br>
BTW, the term =E2=80=9Cpre-order=E2=80=9D [1] is in wide use as a handy ter=
m for &quot;visit nodes before their descendants=E2=80=9D (we would still d=
efine it that way).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At the risk of anot=
her digression, pre-order is more prescriptive than &quot;visit nodes befor=
e their descendants&quot;. Take this example from [1]:</div><div><br></div>=
<div><img src=3D"cid:ii_ksfxp30r0" alt=3D"image.png" width=3D"293" height=
=3D"250"><br><br></div><div><br></div><div> Pre-order traversal would be &q=
uot;F, B, A, D, C, E, G, I, H&quot;, but &quot;visit nodes before their des=
cendants=E2=80=9D allows more possibilities, such as &quot;F, B, G, A, D, C=
, I, E, H&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>By being less prescriptive, I was=
 trying to allow for parallel implementations.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; C. Some other option involving B with the option of A or A with the op=
tion of B, using some kind of language TBD.<br>
<br>
Yes, as well :-).<br>
We haven=E2=80=99t really discussed levels of compliance, and a version of =
=E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t return .. in order=E2=80=9D could be a form of con=
ditional compliance.<br>
*If* we think we need this to drag some implementations along.<br>
(That is, I=E2=80=99d like to hear arguments of the form =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=
=99d lose foomatic=E2=80=99s JSONPath implementation because they make a po=
int of returning arrays in reverse order on Fridays=E2=80=9D before we load=
 ourselves with conditional compliance.)<br>
<br>
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br>
<br>
[1]: <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_traversal#Pre-order,_NLR=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_t=
raversal#Pre-order,_NLR</a><br>
(This article talks about binary trees only, probably because they want to =
discuss in-order as well, which only makes sense for binary trees.)<br>
<br>
&gt; D. Something else, in which case please say what.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Glyn<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Jsonpath mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Jsonpath@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Jsonpath@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath</a=
><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Dennis <gregsdennis@yahoo.com>
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------=_Part_813589_1377980160.1630058344014
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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So are we still doing this?=C2=A0 I haven't seen any activity save for a si=
ngle email thread a couple weeks ago with two comments that really should h=
ave been posted to the GH issue covering the same topic.
We've had two meetings now out of which no actions have been taken.
I really think that this project is worth continuing, but I don't see any s=
upport from other people.
Greg
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<html><head></head><body><div class="yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">So are we still doing this?&nbsp; I haven't seen any activity save for a single email thread a couple weeks ago with two comments that really should have been posted to the GH issue covering the same topic.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">We've had two meetings now out of which no actions have been taken.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I really think that this project is worth continuing, but I don't see any support from other people.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Greg</div></div></body></html>
------=_Part_813589_1377980160.1630058344014--


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Hi Greg,

I think you are experiencing European vacation time.
Glyn did say he is on vacation; I have returned but have to get a few =
things done in the rest of August.
I expect velocity to pick up in September.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


> On 2021-08-27, at 11:59, Greg Dennis =
<gregsdennis=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> So are we still doing this?  I haven't seen any activity save for a =
single email thread a couple weeks ago with two comments that really =
should have been posted to the GH issue covering the same topic.
>=20
> We've had two meetings now out of which no actions have been taken.
>=20
> I really think that this project is worth continuing, but I don't see =
any support from other people.
>=20
> Greg
> --=20
> Jsonpath mailing list
> Jsonpath@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath


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Subject: [Jsonpath] JSON Path (jsonpath) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-09-17
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The JSON Path (jsonpath) WG will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2021-09-17 from 09:00 to 11:00 UTC.

Agenda:
Agenda TBC

Information about remote participation:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=ae48f1c2-565e-4d19-8605-8fd3e3677a68


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> On 2021-08-27, at 20:34, IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> =
wrote:
>=20
> a virtual interim meeting on 2021-09-17 from 09:00 to 11:00 UTC.

Just checking:=20

=
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=3DJSONPath-Inter=
im&iso=3D20210917T09&ah=3D2

So this is a bit suboptimal for our NA constituency (0200-0400 =
Vancouver), workday time for Europe and India, and evening for AU/NZ.

(I=E2=80=99m scheduled not yet to be on my 2nd vacation yet at this =
date, but the unpredictable strikes by a certain train driver minority =
union might still make it impossible for me to make it to the actual =
meeting; but of course we want to prepare this properly anyway.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Hi Carsten,
This time is what we have used twice before for interim meetings, and =
Tim along with several others have signalled their availability for it =
on the Doodle poll that was posted several weeks ago[1] to the mailing =
list which I, as previously opened to suggestions for alternate dates or =
times, received no response.

Your attendance to the upcoming interim meeting would be appreciated but =
if you are unable to make it I=E2=80=99ll try to do a better job of =
communicating meeting minutes and actions.

- J

1: =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/jsonpath/VsdTMkC7gc_xuMYrQE4qHgiNY_U=
/

> On 27 Aug 2021, at 19:54, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 2021-08-27, at 20:34, IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> a virtual interim meeting on 2021-09-17 from 09:00 to 11:00 UTC.
>=20
> Just checking:=20
>=20
> =
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=3DJSONPath-Inter=
im&iso=3D20210917T09&ah=3D2
>=20
> So this is a bit suboptimal for our NA constituency (0200-0400 =
Vancouver), workday time for Europe and India, and evening for AU/NZ.
>=20
> (I=E2=80=99m scheduled not yet to be on my 2nd vacation yet at this =
date, but the unpredictable strikes by a certain train driver minority =
union might still make it impossible for me to make it to the actual =
meeting; but of course we want to prepare this properly anyway.)
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> --=20
> Jsonpath mailing list
> Jsonpath@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath


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To: James <james.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Jsonpath] JSON Path (jsonpath) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-09-17
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Hi James,

no criticism (or even need for action) implied; as I said, I was just =
checking that we are doing this deliberately, and (given that we are) I =
applaud the willingness of Tim and others to take the short straw.

And I=E2=80=99m sorry that that little problem we have in Germany with =
the ego trip of a union boss might jeopardize my availability for the =
meeting; I didn=E2=80=99t see that coming at the time we went for W37, =
and I simply wanted to take the opportunity to make this potential =
problem known in advance.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:15:54 +0000 (UTC)
From: Greg Dennis <gregsdennis@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [Jsonpath] new website for testing my implementation
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Just wanted to announce that I have set up a new site for testing my variou=
s JSON libraries, including JsonPath.Net:=C2=A0https://json-everything.hero=
kuapp.com/json-path.=C2=A0 It'll automatically update to the latest version=
 of my library.
So aside from the test suite and the comparison site, this can be used to s=
ee how my implementation will behave for certain inputs.
Greg

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<html><head></head><body><div class="yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Just wanted to announce that I have set up a new site for testing my various JSON libraries, including JsonPath.Net:&nbsp;<a href="https://json-everything.herokuapp.com/json-path" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">https://json-everything.herokuapp.com/json-path</a>.&nbsp; It'll automatically update to the latest version of my library.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">So aside from the test suite and the comparison site, this can be used to see how my implementation will behave for certain inputs.</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Greg</div><div><br></div></div></body></html>
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