
From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Mon Apr  1 02:38:37 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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On Apr 1, 2013, at 10:15 AM, piranna@gmail.com wrote:

>> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>>   unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>>   error.
>=20
> I don't think so (except if it's a limitation of SCTP that I didn't
> know, so this message is useless). I think it would make sense to be
> able to set both maxRetransmitTime and maxRetransmitNum at the same
> time, only that since they are maximus limits it would be effective
> the first to be reached.
SCTP allows setting a single PR-SCTP policy packet. Supported ones are
limiting the number of retransmissions and time to live. Not a =
combination
of both. That is why you are only providing a single PR-SCTP value.

If you want to limit both, you need to define a new PR-SCTP policy. That
policy would also require two parameters (the number of retransmissions =
and
the time to live in ms) as parameters, not only one as we have =
currently.

So without defining a new PR-SCTP policy, the above text is correct.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> "Si quieres viajar alrededor del mundo y ser invitado a hablar en un
> monton de sitios diferentes, simplemente escribe un sistema operativo
> Unix."
> =96 Linus Tordvals, creador del sistema operativo Linux
>=20
>=20


From john@jlc.net  Mon Apr  1 07:36:04 2013
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 10:36:03 -0400
From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
To: Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130401143603.GF12940@verdi>
References: <CA+9kkMBho1Gmj_GfPorL+Q5B2wih9RDs+dNFDBdkfGT-MN6FVA@mail.gmail.com> <51562335.1020409@acm.org> <CAGgHUiQEx5HVdb==oeypa3=mg4bygxCy6FNxV9-WtrhpFL9Yng@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: [rtcweb] MTI video codec
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Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know the IPR status of H.261?

   Of course not!

> On the ITU website it lists some patents registered 11 years after the
> other patents: http://www.itu.int/ipr/IPRSearch.aspx?iprtype=PS

   I did follow up on that: there are a bunch of Robert Bosch GmbH patents
and one Polycom patent. The Polycom one is easy to find: it was issued
December of 1988. The Bosch ones are a little too hard for me to follow,
but they appear to have been issued years earlier.

   But none of those really matter. While there might be interoperable
implementations of H.261 that run afoul of some patent issued after the
publication of H.261, that would really be accidental. All one needs to
do is find an old enough implementation of H.261 and be sure to add
nothing the least bit clever in transliterating the code. (If it is C
code, that's already done.)

> Here are some of my opinions:
> - If Google resolves the IPR issues around VP8 then VP8 should be MTI. (No
> negotiation failure)
> - If it can't be resolved and H.261 can be freely implemented then H.261
> should be MTI. (Browsers will still implement H.264 or VP8)
> - If H.261 also has IPR issues then no codec should be MTI. (Browsers will
> still implement H.264 or VP8, but there will be negotiation failures. Audio
> only.)
> - If H.264 is MTI then not all new browsers will be willing to implement
> WebRTC. Only the popular browsers will use WebRTC. So much for an open
> web...Also other programs interfacing with WebRTC would need licensing for
> H.264.

   I agree, subject to "some" wordsmithing.

1) If Google resolves the IPR issues around VP8 to the satisfaction of
   the browser distributors more comfortable with H.261, VP8 should be
   MTI.

2) If H.261 licensors resolve the IPR issues around H.261 to the
   satisfaction of the browser distributors more comfortable with VP8,
   H.261 should be MTI. (There's nothing wrong with both being MTI.)

3) If neither 1) nor 2) are satisfied. H.261 should be MTI.

   There is no question it's _possible_ to safely implement H.261. It's
not very good, but it's a starting point. (Anything we specify _will_
be a starting point! It just would be nice to find a better one...)

   I can easily imagine either (or both) 1) and 2) being satisfied; but
I'd have to pinch myself to be sure I wasn't dreaming!

   We're never going to reach consensus by exchanging messages from two
camps both saying, "Be reasonable! Do it my way." Both camps have good
reason to prefer their choice. Unless at least one camp can specify
what it would take to be satisfied with the IPR status of the other
camp's choice -- and we can see a path to getting that in reasonable
time -- I suggest we seriously consider the fallback to H.261.

--
John Leslie <john@jlc.net>

From piranna@gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 01:16:20 2013
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From: "piranna@gmail.com" <piranna@gmail.com>
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> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>    unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>    error.

I don't think so (except if it's a limitation of SCTP that I didn't
know, so this message is useless). I think it would make sense to be
able to set both maxRetransmitTime and maxRetransmitNum at the same
time, only that since they are maximus limits it would be effective
the first to be reached.



--
"Si quieres viajar alrededor del mundo y ser invitado a hablar en un
monton de sitios diferentes, simplemente escribe un sistema operativo
Unix."
=96 Linus Tordvals, creador del sistema operativo Linux

From piranna@gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 02:46:14 2013
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Ok, thanks for the clarification.

2013/4/1 Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>:
> On Apr 1, 2013, at 10:15 AM, piranna@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>>>   unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>>>   error.
>>
>> I don't think so (except if it's a limitation of SCTP that I didn't
>> know, so this message is useless). I think it would make sense to be
>> able to set both maxRetransmitTime and maxRetransmitNum at the same
>> time, only that since they are maximus limits it would be effective
>> the first to be reached.
> SCTP allows setting a single PR-SCTP policy packet. Supported ones are
> limiting the number of retransmissions and time to live. Not a combinatio=
n
> of both. That is why you are only providing a single PR-SCTP value.
>
> If you want to limit both, you need to define a new PR-SCTP policy. That
> policy would also require two parameters (the number of retransmissions a=
nd
> the time to live in ms) as parameters, not only one as we have currently.
>
> So without defining a new PR-SCTP policy, the above text is correct.
>
> Best regards
> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Si quieres viajar alrededor del mundo y ser invitado a hablar en un
>> monton de sitios diferentes, simplemente escribe un sistema operativo
>> Unix."
>> =96 Linus Tordvals, creador del sistema operativo Linux
>>
>>
>



--=20
"Si quieres viajar alrededor del mundo y ser invitado a hablar en un
monton de sitios diferentes, simplemente escribe un sistema operativo
Unix."
=96 Linus Tordvals, creador del sistema operativo Linux

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 09:48:44 2013
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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This looks fine, but I'd like to bike shed just a little.

On 31 March 2013 19:29, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> Here's a proposed API for DataChannels with external negotiation, per the
> recent Interim and IETF meeting (most of this was in my previous W3 email,
> but I've added info on when 'stream' is valid to read, and how even/odd
> roles are assigned for the IETF protocol). I'll note for the IETF folks that
> 'protocol' is in a JS dictionary object in this update, which avoids
> breaking any current experimental applications (and avoids them having any
> incentive to UA-sniff).  Also, I think it works better in the dictionary.
>
>   channel = peerconnection.createDataChannel(label, dictionary_object);
>
> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>    unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>    error.  outOfOrderAllowed can be used with any type of channel.  The
>    equivalent of UDP is { outOfOrderAllowed: true, maxRetransmitNum: 0 }.
>    The TCP equivalent is {}.
>
>    preset is set to true if the channel is being externally negotiated, and
>    no wireline OpenRequest message should be sent.  If preset is true,
> stream
>    can be optionally used to set a specific SCTP stream to use.  If it's
>    not set but preset is true, then the application should read the 'stream'
>    attribute from the returned DataChannel after onopen and convey it to the
>    other end to pass in via the DataChannelInit dictionary.
>  */

A lot of your text can be replaced by defaults on the dictionary.

I prefer 'ordered' over 'outOfOrderAllowed', even if it means an
inversion of the values.  'rtxCount' or 'retransmitCount' rather than
'maxRetransmitNum'  (max is implied).

'preset' doesn't sound right, maybe you could have 'inlineOpen'
(default: true) to convey what is really happening here.

> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>   boolean ordered = true;
>   unsigned short retransmitPeriod = 65535; // !
>   unsigned short retransmitCount = 65535;
>   DOMString protocol;    // default: undefined
>   boolean inlineOpen = true;
>   unsigned short stream;    // default: browser selected
> };

unsigned short is an unusual type for time intervals, even if you
don't foresee a need for more than 65 seconds.  Oh, and that assumes
that you are using milliseconds, right?

From ted.ietf@gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 10:40:40 2013
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DRAFT minutes for RTCWEB day two
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On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 03/29/2013 04:01 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:
> > Attached are draft minutes for the second day of the RTCWEB meetings at
> > IETF 86, please review and send comments to the list.
> >
>
> I predict that a lot of people that are not familiar with the core group of
> RTCweb participants will read this minutes, so I would suggest to check
> that
> the first time a name appears in the minutes, it is the full name of the
> person, not just the first name (and perhaps with the full name all
> uppercase
> so it is easier to find).  E.g. in the first paragraph, "Martin" should be
> replaced by "Martin Thomson" or "MARTIN THOMSON".  Same for "Giri",
> "Gaelle",
> "Daryl", "Kalyani", "Hadriel".
>
>
Ok, I've added last names where I know them or could hear them on the
recording.  There are a few that remain unclear to me.  Attached is the
updated version; if folks could review it and give names where they know
them, that would be useful.

thanks,

Ted




> Thanks.
>
> - --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
> Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
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On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA256<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
On 03/29/2013 04:01 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:<br>
&gt; Attached are draft minutes for the second day of the RTCWEB meetings a=
t<br>
&gt; IETF 86, please review and send comments to the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>I predict that a lot of people that are not familiar with the core gr=
oup of<br>
RTCweb participants will read this minutes, so I would suggest to check tha=
t<br>
the first time a name appears in the minutes, it is the full name of the<br=
>
person, not just the first name (and perhaps with the full name all upperca=
se<br>
so it is easier to find). =A0E.g. in the first paragraph, &quot;Martin&quot=
; should be<br>
replaced by &quot;Martin Thomson&quot; or &quot;MARTIN THOMSON&quot;. =A0Sa=
me for &quot;Giri&quot;, &quot;Gaelle&quot;,<br>
&quot;Daryl&quot;, &quot;Kalyani&quot;, &quot;Hadriel&quot;.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>Ok, I&#39;ve added last names where I know them o=
r could hear them on the recording.=A0 There are a few that remain unclear =
to me.=A0 Attached is the updated version; if folks could review it and giv=
e names where they know them, that would be useful.<br>
<br>thanks,<br><br>Ted<br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Thanks.<br>
<br>
- --<br>
Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org">marc@petit-huguenin.org</=
a><br>
Blog: <a href=3D"http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org</a><br>
Profile: <a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug</a><br>
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--047d7b2e3e0077f3a004d9501e0d--

From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Mon Apr  1 13:00:29 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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On 4/1/2013 12:48 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> This looks fine, but I'd like to bike shed just a little.
>
> On 31 March 2013 19:29, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
>> Here's a proposed API for DataChannels with external negotiation, per the
>> recent Interim and IETF meeting (most of this was in my previous W3 email,
>> but I've added info on when 'stream' is valid to read, and how even/odd
>> roles are assigned for the IETF protocol). I'll note for the IETF folks that
>> 'protocol' is in a JS dictionary object in this update, which avoids
>> breaking any current experimental applications (and avoids them having any
>> incentive to UA-sniff).  Also, I think it works better in the dictionary.
>>
>>    channel = peerconnection.createDataChannel(label, dictionary_object);
>>
>> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>>     unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>>     error.  outOfOrderAllowed can be used with any type of channel.  The
>>     equivalent of UDP is { outOfOrderAllowed: true, maxRetransmitNum: 0 }.
>>     The TCP equivalent is {}.
>>
>>     preset is set to true if the channel is being externally negotiated, and
>>     no wireline OpenRequest message should be sent.  If preset is true,
>> stream
>>     can be optionally used to set a specific SCTP stream to use.  If it's
>>     not set but preset is true, then the application should read the 'stream'
>>     attribute from the returned DataChannel after onopen and convey it to the
>>     other end to pass in via the DataChannelInit dictionary.
>>   */
> A lot of your text can be replaced by defaults on the dictionary.
>
> I prefer 'ordered' over 'outOfOrderAllowed', even if it means an
> inversion of the values.

Probably is easier to understand, and defaults help.

>    'rtxCount' or 'retransmitCount' rather than
> 'maxRetransmitNum'  (max is implied).

I don't know that removing 'max' helps here or hurts.  Also, 
sorta-acronyms like rtx are obvious to networking people; not so much to 
JS app developers.  I see only minimal advantage here to brevity.  Count 
might be an improvement on Num.

> 'preset' doesn't sound right, maybe you could have 'inlineOpen'
> (default: true) to convey what is really happening here.

externallyNegotiated (default: false)?  Not great, but "inlineOpen" will 
be pretty meaningless to most developers who probably could care less if 
there's an in-band open message for a channel (whether externally 
negotiated or not) - or even know there's an in-band message.  Then 
again, 99% of developers don't need to care about this anyways.

>> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>>    boolean ordered = true;
>>    unsigned short retransmitPeriod = 65535; // !
>>    unsigned short retransmitCount = 65535;
>>    DOMString protocol;    // default: undefined
>>    boolean inlineOpen = true;
>>    unsigned short stream;    // default: browser selected
>> };
> unsigned short is an unusual type for time intervals, even if you
> don't foresee a need for more than 65 seconds.  Oh, and that assumes
> that you are using milliseconds, right?

Unsigned short has been the type in the protocol fields since the first 
draft (like a year).  Perhaps a silly optimization, though I think if 
you want partial reliability with >64K resends, or >64 seconds of retry 
that you *really* want reliable transmission (perhaps unordered, but 
reliable).   If we want to change it, now's the time, since we're 
breaking binary compatibility in FF with my landing today anyways.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 13:25:00 2013
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On 1 April 2013 12:58, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> I don't know that removing 'max' helps here or hurts.  Also, sorta-acronyms
> like rtx are obvious to networking people; not so much to JS app developers.
> I see only minimal advantage here to brevity.  Count might be an improvement
> on Num.

Yeah, 'rtx' is probably too aggressively short.

>> 'preset' doesn't sound right, maybe you could have 'inlineOpen'
>> (default: true) to convey what is really happening here.
>
>
> externallyNegotiated (default: false)?  Not great, but "inlineOpen" will be
> pretty meaningless to most developers who probably could care less if
> there's an in-band open message for a channel (whether externally negotiated
> or not) - or even know there's an in-band message.  Then again, 99% of
> developers don't need to care about this anyways.

Yes, I didn't get a warm fuzzy from my suggested name either, but you
are right about the impact being relatively low.

Other ideas: "announceSettings" (default: true), "prearranged"
(default: false), "thisIsNotATest" (default: "yesItIs").

> Unsigned short has been the type in the protocol fields since the first
> draft (like a year).  Perhaps a silly optimization, though I think if you
> want partial reliability with >64K resends, or >64 seconds of retry that you
> *really* want reliable transmission (perhaps unordered, but reliable).   If
> we want to change it, now's the time, since we're breaking binary
> compatibility in FF with my landing today anyways.

Well, you'll be accepting a JS number, so it doesn't really matter
what the spec says.

From jonathan@vidyo.com  Mon Apr  1 15:54:26 2013
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From: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:54:06 -0400
Thread-Topic: [avtext] WGLC for draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-08
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Hello, all --

(As AVTExt co-chair)

The draft "Support for Multiple Clock Rates in an RTP Session", whose recom=
mendations are cited as MUST follow in the RTCWeb RTP usage document, is in=
 WGLC in the AVTExt working group.

Please review this draft, and send any comments to the avtext mailing list.

Thanks!

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
> Subject: [avtext] WGLC for draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-08
> Date: March 27, 2013 5:15:19 PM EDT
> To: "avtext@ietf.org" <avtext@ietf.org>
>=20
> (As WG cochair)
>=20
> This is to announce a working group last call for draft-ietf-avtext-multi=
ple-clock-rates-08:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates/
>=20
> Please respond to the list by April 17 2013 (i.e. 3 weeks time) with any =
comments.
>=20
> This is intended as a standards track RFC, updating RFC 3550.
>=20
> It is helpful to attempt to categorise the type of your comment (includin=
g severity) and also to assist to provide any replacement text you feel is =
necessary.
>=20
> If you review the document and have no comments, please tell the chairs t=
hat you have reviewed it. This is always useful information in assessing th=
e degree of WG review and consensus behind the document.
>=20
>=20
> --
> Jonathan Lennox
> jonathan@vidyo.com
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> avtext mailing list
> avtext@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext
>=20

--
Jonathan Lennox
jonathan@vidyo.com



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RTCWEB WG,

This is another of the normative reference that are in WG last call.
This is a short document so please review it and send notice to the
AVTCORE WG (avt@ietf.org) with any issues or a note stating that you
think it is ready for publication.

Thanks

Magnus Westerlund
AVTCORE and RTCWEB chair

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:01:38 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Reminder: Re: WG last call on
	draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis-01
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WG,

So far there has be no other reviews of this document than mine.

Can someone please review this document?

I hereby extended the WG last call with one week until the 7th of April.

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-03-12 20:04, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> WG,
>=20
> This is to announce the start of a WG last call on:
>=20
> Guidelines for Choosing RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Canonical Names
> (CNAMEs) to be published as a proposed standard.
>=20
> Document can be retrieved here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis/
>=20
> Please provide any feedback by the 31st of March.
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
> WG chair
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> F=E4r=F6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
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>=20
>=20


--=20

Magnus Westerlund

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Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
F=E4r=F6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DRAFT minutes for RTCWEB day two
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WG,

Attached is a version with change marks for a number of proposed changes
where I think the minutes can benefit from clarification and details.

I have one question mark where I don't understand what the minutes
reefer to. In Cullen's video presentation the following sentence exist:

Henning’s guideline on this was the guideline from the beginning.

Can someone please clarify?

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-04-01 19:40, Ted Hardie wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org
> <mailto:petithug@acm.org>> wrote:
> 
> On 03/29/2013 04:01 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:
>> Attached are draft minutes for the second day of the RTCWEB
> meetings at
>> IETF 86, please review and send comments to the list.
> 
> 
> I predict that a lot of people that are not familiar with the core
> group of
> RTCweb participants will read this minutes, so I would suggest to
> check that
> the first time a name appears in the minutes, it is the full name of the
> person, not just the first name (and perhaps with the full name all
> uppercase
> so it is easier to find).  E.g. in the first paragraph, "Martin"
> should be
> replaced by "Martin Thomson" or "MARTIN THOMSON".  Same for "Giri",
> "Gaelle",
> "Daryl", "Kalyani", "Hadriel".
> 
> 
>> Ok, I've added last names where I know them or could hear them on the
>> recording.  There are a few that remain unclear to me.  Attached is the
>> updated version; if folks could review it and give names where they know
>> them, that would be useful.
> 
>> thanks,
> 
>> Ted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Use case for smellovision
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Subject: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to point=
 out that Googles new search,=20

https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/

Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other than voice an=
d video.=20



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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" =
<fluffy@cisco.com>:

>=20
> I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to =
point out that Googles new search,=20
>=20
> https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
>=20
> Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other than =
voice and video.=20
>=20
I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m's first presentation of Internet =
Media Types - MIME.
He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.

Time to fix that, obviously.

/O=

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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DRAFT minutes for RTCWEB day two
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On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:09 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.c=
om> wrote:

> WG,
>=20
> Attached is a version with change marks for a number of proposed changes
> where I think the minutes can benefit from clarification and details.
>=20
> I have one question mark where I don't understand what the minutes
> reefer to. In Cullen's video presentation the following sentence exist:
>=20
> Henning=92s guideline on this was the guideline from the beginning.

Did anyone actually say that in the meeting? Was it Ted because I don't rec=
all saying that.


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From: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
To: "Olle E. Johansson" <oej@edvina.net>
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Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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--f46d043bdce6884c4c04d976aaf6
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I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors attached
to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and hence help
solve the crime -  world peace

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:

>
> 2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com<j=
avascript:;>
> >:
>
> >
> > I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to
> point out that Googles new search,
> >
> > https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
> >
> > Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other than voic=
e
> and video.
> >
> I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m's first presentation of Internet Media
> Types - MIME.
> He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.
>
> Time to fix that, obviously.
>
> /O
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org <javascript:;>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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I think such an application can be embedded in the=A0<span></span>rtcweb-se=
nsors attached to the=A0sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell=
 and hence help solve the crime - =A0world peace<br><br>On Tuesday, April 2=
, 2013, Olle E. Johansson  wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev &quot;Cullen Jennings (fluffy)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;fluffy@cisco.co=
m&#39;)">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to =
point out that Googles new search,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other than voi=
ce and video.<br>
&gt;<br>
I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m&#39;s first presentation of Internet Med=
ia Types - MIME.<br>
He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.<br>
<br>
Time to fix that, obviously.<br>
<br>
/O<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;rtcweb@i=
etf.org&#39;)">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote>

--f46d043bdce6884c4c04d976aaf6--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In fact,
I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
too much.

And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:

I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule "if
stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
or just "id".

I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
"ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
"maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
"maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
simply "maxRetransmits".

So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:

dictionary DataChannelInit {
  DOMString protocol;
  unsigned short id;
  boolean ordered;
  boolean reliable;
  unsigned short maxRetransmits;
  unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
};

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 April 2013 12:58, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
>> I don't know that removing 'max' helps here or hurts.  Also, sorta-acronyms
>> like rtx are obvious to networking people; not so much to JS app developers.
>> I see only minimal advantage here to brevity.  Count might be an improvement
>> on Num.
>
> Yeah, 'rtx' is probably too aggressively short.
>
>>> 'preset' doesn't sound right, maybe you could have 'inlineOpen'
>>> (default: true) to convey what is really happening here.
>>
>>
>> externallyNegotiated (default: false)?  Not great, but "inlineOpen" will be
>> pretty meaningless to most developers who probably could care less if
>> there's an in-band open message for a channel (whether externally negotiated
>> or not) - or even know there's an in-band message.  Then again, 99% of
>> developers don't need to care about this anyways.
>
> Yes, I didn't get a warm fuzzy from my suggested name either, but you
> are right about the impact being relatively low.
>
> Other ideas: "announceSettings" (default: true), "prearranged"
> (default: false), "thisIsNotATest" (default: "yesItIs").
>
>> Unsigned short has been the type in the protocol fields since the first
>> draft (like a year).  Perhaps a silly optimization, though I think if you
>> want partial reliability with >64K resends, or >64 seconds of retry that you
>> *really* want reliable transmission (perhaps unordered, but reliable).   If
>> we want to change it, now's the time, since we're breaking binary
>> compatibility in FF with my landing today anyways.
>
> Well, you'll be accepting a JS number, so it doesn't really matter
> what the spec says.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Subject: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This
latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. We
would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can
make further improvements.

In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
"good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.

An overview of our results is available as follows:

- A Quality comparison (psnr):
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html

- An Encode Speed comparison:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html

- A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips in
the test:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt

All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git

The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build and
run the tests.

The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also be
downloaded:

VP8:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/index.html

H.264:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html

Adrian Grange

--047d7b2e3e00f33e3a04d9773920
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<div dir=3D"ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 t=
o H.264. This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the pre=
vious set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions=
 as to how we could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to=
 how we can make further improvements.<div>
<div><br></div><div style>In these tests we run x264 with the &quot;veryslo=
w&quot; preset and VP8 with the &quot;good, speed 0&quot; setting in an att=
empt to produce comparable results.</div><div style><br></div><div style>
An overview of our results is available as follows:</div><div><div style=3D=
"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-=
size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">- A Quality comparison (psnr):=A0<a=
 href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.ht=
ml" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h2=
64_quality.html</a></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">- An Encode Speed comp=
arison:=A0<a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h26=
4_speed.html" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests=
/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">- A comparison of the =
aggregate time required to decode all of the clips in the test:=A0<a href=
=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-deco=
detime.txt</a><br>
</div></div><div><br></div><div>All of our test scripts=A0<span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can either be download=
ed from:</span><br></div><div><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz" =
target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.t=
ar.xz</a></div></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:13px">
or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div><div><font face=3D"arial,=
 helvetica, sans-serif">git clone <a href=3D"http://git.chromium.org/webm/v=
px_codec_comparison.git">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.=
git</a></font><br>
</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13=
px">The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build=
 and run the tests.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Th=
e compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also be do=
wnloaded:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><d=
iv><span class=3D"" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8</span>:=
</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/=
index.html</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"" style=3D"background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,204)">H</span>.<span class=3D"" style=3D"background-color:r=
gb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/ind=
ex.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html=
</a><br></div><div><br></div><div style>Adrian Grange<br></div><div style>
<br></div><div style><br></div></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div=
></div></div></div></div>

--047d7b2e3e00f33e3a04d9773920--

From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Wed Apr  3 09:21:02 2013
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:19:20 -0400
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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On 4/3/2013 12:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In fact,
> I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
> too much.
>
> And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:
>
> I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
> only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule "if
> stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
> altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
> it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
> or just "id".

The reason was that I wanted a way to have the system select a stream to 
use (that you can then communicate externally to the other side); this 
avoids any chance of a collision with existing streams. If this is seen 
as not useful, then we can collapse it to a single entry.   (I also 
toyed with using stream 65535 as a flag to tell the system to allocate 
one; that seemed too hacky.)

Since this option was almost solely for those who understand the 
underlying SCTP-ness of this, I used "stream", but I'm fine with 
"streamId" or "id" (or "index" might be better than "id", which sounds 
like a label of some sort).  I dislike "sid" for similar reasons to 
disliking "rtx".

> I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
> reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
> "ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
> idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
> maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
> "maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
> "maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
> simply "maxRetransmits".

Those seem reasonable (I'd use Millisec/MilliSec or perhaps MS instead 
of Millis -- how are millisecond time values in other HTML5 specs 
described?).  On "reliable:false" - is this just a shorthand for 
"ordered:false, maxRetransmits:0"?  If so, I'm probably ok with it - 
it's redundant, but makes it easy to use/read for a common case.

>
> So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:
>
> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>    DOMString protocol;
>    unsigned short id;
>    boolean ordered;
>    boolean reliable;
>    unsigned short maxRetransmits;
>    unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
> };

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Wed Apr  3 09:23:05 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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Adding W3 list back ("Reply List" replies to one list in TB), since this 
really is a W3 item anyways.

On 4/3/2013 12:19 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/3/2013 12:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>> I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In fact,
>> I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
>> too much.
>>
>> And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:
>>
>> I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
>> only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule "if
>> stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
>> altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
>> it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
>> or just "id".
>
> The reason was that I wanted a way to have the system select a stream 
> to use (that you can then communicate externally to the other side); 
> this avoids any chance of a collision with existing streams. If this 
> is seen as not useful, then we can collapse it to a single entry.   (I 
> also toyed with using stream 65535 as a flag to tell the system to 
> allocate one; that seemed too hacky.)
>
> Since this option was almost solely for those who understand the 
> underlying SCTP-ness of this, I used "stream", but I'm fine with 
> "streamId" or "id" (or "index" might be better than "id", which sounds 
> like a label of some sort).  I dislike "sid" for similar reasons to 
> disliking "rtx".
>
>> I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
>> reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
>> "ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
>> idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
>> maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
>> "maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
>> "maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
>> simply "maxRetransmits".
>
> Those seem reasonable (I'd use Millisec/MilliSec or perhaps MS instead 
> of Millis -- how are millisecond time values in other HTML5 specs 
> described?).  On "reliable:false" - is this just a shorthand for 
> "ordered:false, maxRetransmits:0"?  If so, I'm probably ok with it - 
> it's redundant, but makes it easy to use/read for a common case.
>
>>
>> So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:
>>
>> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>>    DOMString protocol;
>>    unsigned short id;
>>    boolean ordered;
>>    boolean reliable;
>>    unsigned short maxRetransmits;
>>    unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
>> };
>


-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


From ted.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Apr  3 09:28:34 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DRAFT minutes for RTCWEB day two
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On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
<fluffy@cisco.com>wrote:

>
> On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:09 AM, Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > WG,
> >
> > Attached is a version with change marks for a number of proposed change=
s
> > where I think the minutes can benefit from clarification and details.
> >
> > I have one question mark where I don't understand what the minutes
> > reefer to. In Cullen's video presentation the following sentence exist:
> >
> > Henning=92s guideline on this was the guideline from the beginning.
>
>
Henning's guideline is approximately "the point of mandatory to implement
anything is to avoid negotiation failure".


> Did anyone actually say that in the meeting? Was it Ted because I don't
> recall saying that.
>
>
Yes, as the minutes note, I said it at the floor mic during our discussion
of whether we should test  the MTI as proposed or treat the MTI as a
guideline on what approach would be commonly implemented and test at some
other level.

Ted

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On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:09 AM, Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.=
westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; WG,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Attached is a version with change marks for a number of proposed chang=
es<br>
&gt; where I think the minutes can benefit from clarification and details.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have one question mark where I don&#39;t understand what the minutes=
<br>
&gt; reefer to. In Cullen&#39;s video presentation the following sentence e=
xist:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Henning=92s guideline on this was the guideline from the beginning.<br=
>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br>Henning&#39;s guideline is approximately &q=
uot;the point of mandatory to implement anything is to avoid negotiation fa=
ilure&quot;.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">
</div>Did anyone actually say that in the meeting? Was it Ted because I don=
&#39;t recall saying that.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>Yes, as the minutes note, I said it at the floor mic=
 during our discussion of whether we should test=A0 the MTI as proposed or =
treat the MTI as a guideline on what approach would be commonly implemented=
 and test at some other level.<br>
<br>Ted<br>

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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=20

What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision?  Is there =
a
patent pool here?=20

=20

Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use =
case.

=20

=20

=20

From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Suhas Nandakumar
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 AM
To: Olle E. Johansson
Cc: Cullen Jennings (fluffy); rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision

=20

I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors =
attached
to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and hence =
help
solve the crime -  world peace

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:


2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com
<javascript:;> >:

>
> I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to
point out that Googles new search,
>
> https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
>
> Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other than =
voice
and video.
>
I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m's first presentation of Internet =
Media Types
- MIME.
He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.

Time to fix that, obviously.

/O
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org <javascript:;>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision?=A0 Is =
there a patent pool here? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use =
case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> =
rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Suhas Nandakumar<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Olle E. Johansson<br><b>Cc:</b> Cullen Jennings =
(fluffy); rtcweb@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] Use case for =
smellovision<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think such =
an application can be embedded in the&nbsp;rtcweb-sensors attached to =
the&nbsp;sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and hence =
help solve the crime - &nbsp;world peace<br><br>On Tuesday, April 2, =
2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>2 apr =
2013 kl. 20:37 skrev &quot;Cullen Jennings (fluffy)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"javascript:;">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt;<br>&gt; I =
beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and wanted to =
point out that Googles new search,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/</a><br>&gt=
;<br>&gt; Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other =
than voice and video.<br>&gt;<br>I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m's =
first presentation of Internet Media Types - MIME.<br>He said that they =
had attachment types for everything except smell.<br><br>Time to fix =
that, =
obviously.<br><br>/O<br>_______________________________________________<b=
r>rtcweb mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"javascript:;">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></=
o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Wed Apr  3 11:16:28 2013
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To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:19 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:

> On 4/3/2013 12:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>> I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In =
fact,
>> I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
>> too much.
>>=20
>> And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:
>>=20
>> I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
>> only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule =
"if
>> stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
>> altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
>> it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
>> or just "id".
>=20
> The reason was that I wanted a way to have the system select a stream =
to use (that you can then communicate externally to the other side); =
this avoids any chance of a collision with existing streams. If this is =
seen as not useful, then we can collapse it to a single entry.   (I also =
toyed with using stream 65535 as a flag to tell the system to allocate =
one; that seemed too hacky.)
>=20
> Since this option was almost solely for those who understand the =
underlying SCTP-ness of this, I used "stream", but I'm fine with =
"streamId" or "id" (or "index" might be better than "id", which sounds =
like a label of some sort).  I dislike "sid" for similar reasons to =
disliking "rtx".
>=20
>> I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
>> reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
>> "ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
>> idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
>> maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
>> "maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
>> "maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
>> simply "maxRetransmits".
>=20
> Those seem reasonable (I'd use Millisec/MilliSec or perhaps MS instead =
of Millis -- how are millisecond time values in other HTML5 specs =
described?).  On "reliable:false" - is this just a shorthand for =
"ordered:false, maxRetransmits:0"?  If so, I'm probably ok with it - =
it's redundant, but makes it easy to use/read for a common case.

Does this mean that if I want
ordered:true
maxRetransmits:0
or
ordered:false
maxRetransmits:1
I have to set reliable:true? That doesn't make sense... Also reliability =
is independent from
ordering.

I would prefer to avoid redundancy there.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
>>=20
>> So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:
>>=20
>> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>>   DOMString protocol;
>>   unsigned short id;
>>   boolean ordered;
>>   boolean reliable;
>>   unsigned short maxRetransmits;
>>   unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
>> };
>=20
> --=20
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


From piranna@gmail.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:25 2013
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:37:03 +0200
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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I agree with Peter (all the parameter in a dictionary), also with the
one about to put the label inside it. Also this way, it would be the
label optional too and be able to identify the DataChannel this way
using the other parameters, as for example the protocol.

2013/4/3 Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>:
> Adding W3 list back ("Reply List" replies to one list in TB), since this
> really is a W3 item anyways.
>
> On 4/3/2013 12:19 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>>
>> On 4/3/2013 12:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>>>
>>> I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In fact,
>>> I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
>>> too much.
>>>
>>> And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:
>>>
>>> I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
>>> only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule "if
>>> stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
>>> altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
>>> it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
>>> or just "id".
>>
>>
>> The reason was that I wanted a way to have the system select a stream to
>> use (that you can then communicate externally to the other side); this
>> avoids any chance of a collision with existing streams. If this is seen =
as
>> not useful, then we can collapse it to a single entry.   (I also toyed w=
ith
>> using stream 65535 as a flag to tell the system to allocate one; that se=
emed
>> too hacky.)
>>
>> Since this option was almost solely for those who understand the
>> underlying SCTP-ness of this, I used "stream", but I'm fine with "stream=
Id"
>> or "id" (or "index" might be better than "id", which sounds like a label=
 of
>> some sort).  I dislike "sid" for similar reasons to disliking "rtx".
>>
>>
>>> I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
>>> reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
>>> "ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
>>> idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
>>> maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
>>> "maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
>>> "maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
>>> simply "maxRetransmits".
>>
>>
>> Those seem reasonable (I'd use Millisec/MilliSec or perhaps MS instead o=
f
>> Millis -- how are millisecond time values in other HTML5 specs described=
?).
>> On "reliable:false" - is this just a shorthand for "ordered:false,
>> maxRetransmits:0"?  If so, I'm probably ok with it - it's redundant, but
>> makes it easy to use/read for a common case.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:
>>>
>>> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>>>    DOMString protocol;
>>>    unsigned short id;
>>>    boolean ordered;
>>>    boolean reliable;
>>>    unsigned short maxRetransmits;
>>>    unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
>>> };
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>
>



--=20
"Si quieres viajar alrededor del mundo y ser invitado a hablar en un
monton de sitios diferentes, simplemente escribe un sistema operativo
Unix."
=96 Linus Tordvals, creador del sistema operativo Linux

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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:12:34 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
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Randell, thanks for explaining.  I think it's a valid use case to say
"I don't want the in-band open message, but I do want you to choose
the SID for me".  In that case, I'm OK with a separate flag meaning
"send the in-band open message", and I'd prefer a name like
"sendOpenMessage" or "sendControlMessages", which would default to
true.

On "sid", If you don't like "sid", I'm OK with "id", or even
"streamid", but I prefer "id" over "streamid".  I don't like "index".

On "millis" vs. "millsecs", the closest thing in HTML I could find was
the Date object, which has "getMilliseconds".  That would lean us
toward "maxRetransmitMillieseconds", which seems too long.  But I
don't care too much about this name, and would be happy with any of
"maxRetransmitMs" or "maxRetransmitMillis",
"maxRetransmitMilliseconds", "maxRetransmitTime" or
"maxRetransmitDuration".

On "reliable: false", I'd say it's a synonym for "maxRetransmits: 0".
You can have "{ordered: true; reliable: false"} or "{ordered: false;
reliable: true}", which is the same as "{ordered:true,
maxRetransmits:0}" or "{ordered:false}", respectively.

Michael, you don't have to set "reliable: true", since that's the
default.  This is only to allow "reliable: false" as a more readable
and easy to understand way of saying "maxRetransmits: 0".  It's purely
a convenience synonym.

Finally, if it's possible for us to make such a breaking change, I do
think it makes sense to optionally allow the browser to choose the
label, just as it optionally chooses the sid.  As such, I'll include
that idea in the dictionary I propose below so that createDataChannel
would take only one argument, this dictionary (like so:
createDataChannel({"label: XYZ", ...}).  If everyone else dislikes
this idea, then so be, take out that field and keep the rest.  I feel
more strongly about the rest of the names and options than I do about
that one.  But if we can make the change, I think it makes the method
cleaner and more flexible.


So, I update my proposed dictionary to be the following:

dictionary DataChannelInit {
  DOMString label;  //  default: chosen by browser.
  DOMString protocol;  // default: undefined
  unsigned short id;  // default: chosen by browser.
  boolean ordered = true;
  boolean reliable = true;  //  false is just a synonym for maxRetransmits: 0.
  unsigned short maxRetransmits;  // default:  "forever"
  unsigned short maxRetransmitMilliseconds;  // default: "forever"
  boolean sendOpenMessage = true;
};

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> Adding W3 list back ("Reply List" replies to one list in TB), since this
> really is a W3 item anyways.
>
>
> On 4/3/2013 12:19 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>>
>> On 4/3/2013 12:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>>>
>>> I think moving protocol into the dictionary is a good idea.   In fact,
>>> I'd like to see label move there as well, but that's probably asking
>>> too much.
>>>
>>> And now for a little of my own bikeshedding:
>>>
>>> I don't understand way we have "stream" and "preset", since you can
>>> only set "stream" if "preset" is true.  Why not just make the rule "if
>>> stream is set, no in-band message is sent", and get rid of "preset"
>>> altogether?  I really don't like the word "stream" sneaking in, since
>>> it's so overloaded (MediaStream, RTP Stream, etc).  I'd prefer "sid"
>>> or just "id".
>>
>>
>> The reason was that I wanted a way to have the system select a stream to
>> use (that you can then communicate externally to the other side); this
>> avoids any chance of a collision with existing streams. If this is seen as
>> not useful, then we can collapse it to a single entry.   (I also toyed with
>> using stream 65535 as a flag to tell the system to allocate one; that seemed
>> too hacky.)
>>
>> Since this option was almost solely for those who understand the
>> underlying SCTP-ness of this, I used "stream", but I'm fine with "streamId"
>> or "id" (or "index" might be better than "id", which sounds like a label of
>> some sort).  I dislike "sid" for similar reasons to disliking "rtx".
>>
>>> I like the idea that reliable+ordered is the default, and both
>>> reliability and ordered can be set independently.  I also prefer
>>> "ordered" over "outOfOrderAllowed", and along with that I like the
>>> idea of a "reliable" flag that, if false, is the equivalent of either
>>> maxRetransmitNum:0 or maxRetransmitTime:0.  Finally, I think
>>> "maxRetransmitTime" should make its units clear, perhaps calling it
>>> "maxRetransmitMillis", and "maxRetransmitNum" could be shortened to
>>> simply "maxRetransmits".
>>
>>
>> Those seem reasonable (I'd use Millisec/MilliSec or perhaps MS instead of
>> Millis -- how are millisecond time values in other HTML5 specs described?).
>> On "reliable:false" - is this just a shorthand for "ordered:false,
>> maxRetransmits:0"?  If so, I'm probably ok with it - it's redundant, but
>> makes it easy to use/read for a common case.
>>
>>>
>>> So the dictionary for my bikeshed would be:
>>>
>>> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>>>    DOMString protocol;
>>>    unsigned short id;
>>>    boolean ordered;
>>>    boolean reliable;
>>>    unsigned short maxRetransmits;
>>>    unsigned short maxRetransmitMillis;
>>> };
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Hi Adrian,

Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?

x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset 
veryslow \
       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
       --tune psnr \
       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

vs:

  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} 
--kf-min-dist=3000 \
       --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1 
--static-thresh=0 \
       --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 
--max-q=56 \
       --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
       --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
       --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good 
--noise-sensitivity=0 \
       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
       &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

Best regards
Sergio

El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. 
> This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the 
> previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made 
> suggestions as to how we could improve our methodology and encourage 
> suggestions as to how we can make further improvements.
>
> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the 
> "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>
> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>
> - A Quality comparison (psnr): 
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>
> - An Encode Speed comparison: 
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>
> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the 
> clips in the test: 
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>
> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>
> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to 
> build and run the tests.
>
> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can 
> also be downloaded:
>
> VP8:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos 
> <http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html
>
> H.264:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>
> Adrian Grange
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adrian,<br>
      <br>
      Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?<br>
      <br>
      x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset
      veryslow \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv
      ${filename} \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
      <br>
      <br>
      vs:
      <br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate}
      --kf-min-dist=3000 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1
      --static-thresh=0 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2
      --max-q=56 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000
      --max-intra-rate=1200 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good
      --noise-sensitivity=0 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
      <br>
      <br>
      Best regards<br>
      Sergio<br>
      <br>
      El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi&oacute;:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPVCLWbajJNS-DbXS-AJjakwovBKhhpXAmBaR_LYKjCyk7UnYg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results
        comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for some
        of the problems in the previous set. We would like to extend our
        thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we could improve
        our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can make
        further improvements.
        <div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div style="">In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow"
            preset and VP8 with the "good, speed 0" setting in an
            attempt to produce comparable results.</div>
          <div style=""><br>
          </div>
          <div style="">
            An overview of our results is available as follows:</div>
          <div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">- A
              Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"
                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a></div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
              An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html"
                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">- A
              comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of
              the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt"
                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span
              style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can
              either be downloaded from:</span><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a></div>
            </div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
              or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div>
            <div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">git clone <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></font><br>
            </div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
            </div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The
              file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how
              to build and run the tests.</div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
            </div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The
              compressed video files--the output from the quality
              tests--can also be downloaded:</div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
            </div>
            <div
              style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
              <div><span class=""
                  style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8</span>:</div>
              <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span class=""
                  style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">H</span>.<span
                  class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
              <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><br>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div style="">Adrian Grange<br>
              </div>
              <div style="">
                <br>
              </div>
              <div style=""><br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div><br>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>
> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset 
> veryslow \
>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>       --tune psnr \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> vs:
>
>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} 
> --kf-min-dist=3000 \
>       --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1 
> --static-thresh=0 \
>       --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 
> --max-q=56 \
>       --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
>       --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
>       --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good 
> --noise-sensitivity=0 \
>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>       &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither 
generates periodic keyframes.

Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the 
parameters that were recommended for this test by people who like this 
particular codec implementation.

Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering about?


>
> Best regards
> Sergio
>
> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
>> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. 
>> This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the 
>> previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made 
>> suggestions as to how we could improve our methodology and encourage 
>> suggestions as to how we can make further improvements.
>>
>> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with 
>> the "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>>
>> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>>
>> - A Quality comparison (psnr): 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>>
>> - An Encode Speed comparison: 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>>
>> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the 
>> clips in the test: 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>>
>> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>>
>> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to 
>> build and run the tests.
>>
>> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can 
>> also be downloaded:
>>
>> VP8:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos 
>> <http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html
>>
>> H.264:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>>
>> Adrian Grange
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia
      Murillo wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D3FA1.6050305@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adrian,<br>
        <br>
        Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is
        comparable?<br>
        <br>
        x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
        <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite
        --preset veryslow \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv
        ${filename} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
        <br>
        vs: <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate}
        --kf-min-dist=3000 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1
        --static-thresh=0 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2
        --max-q=56 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000
        --max-intra-rate=1200 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good
        --noise-sensitivity=0 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and
    neither generates periodic keyframes.<br>
    <br>
    Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the
    parameters that were recommended for this test by people who like
    this particular codec implementation.<br>
    <br>
    Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering
    about?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D3FA1.6050305@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
        Best regards<br>
        Sergio<br>
        <br>
        El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi&oacute;:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPVCLWbajJNS-DbXS-AJjakwovBKhhpXAmBaR_LYKjCyk7UnYg@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
        <div dir="ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results
          comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for
          some of the problems in the previous set. We would like to
          extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
          could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to
          how we can make further improvements.
          <div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div style="">In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow"
              preset and VP8 with the "good, speed 0" setting in an
              attempt to produce comparable results.</div>
            <div style=""><br>
            </div>
            <div style=""> An overview of our results is available as
              follows:</div>
            <div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a></div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode
                all of the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span
                style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can

                either be downloaded from:</span><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a></div>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div>
              <div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">git clone <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></font><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The

                file README.txt, contained within, presents details of
                how to build and run the tests.</div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The

                compressed video files--the output from the quality
                tests--can also be downloaded:</div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                <div><span class=""
                    style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8</span>:</div>
                <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span class=""
                    style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">H</span>.<span
                    class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
                <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div style="">Adrian Grange<br>
                </div>
                <div style=""> <br>
                </div>
                <div style=""><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020601080504010300060102--

From ldecicco@gmail.com  Thu Apr  4 06:59:50 2013
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:59:48 +0200
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From: Luca De Cicco <ldecicco@gmail.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Why did you use baseline instead of mainline or highline for x264? It
should be better to compare
vp8 at least with the mainline profile.

Cheers,
Luca

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wr=
ote:
> On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>
> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset veryslo=
w \
>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>       --tune psnr \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> vs:
>
>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate} --kf-min-dis=
t=3D3000
> \
>       --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame_rate}/1
> --static-thresh=3D0 \
>       --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --=
max-q=3D56 \
>       --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-sz=3D1000 \
>       --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000 --max-intra-rate=3D1=
200 \
>       --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 --good
> --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \
>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>       &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
>
> Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither
> generates periodic keyframes.
>
> Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the
> parameters that were recommended for this test by people who like this
> particular codec implementation.
>
> Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering abou=
t?
>
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Sergio
>
> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:
>
> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This
> latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. W=
e
> would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how w=
e
> could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can
> make further improvements.
>
> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
> "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>
> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>
> - A Quality comparison (psnr):
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>
> - An Encode Speed comparison:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>
> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips =
in
> the test:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>
> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>
> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build a=
nd
> run the tests.
>
> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also b=
e
> downloaded:
>
> VP8:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/index.html
>
> H.264:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>
> Adrian Grange
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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On 04/04/2013 03:59 PM, Luca De Cicco wrote:
> Why did you use baseline instead of mainline or highline for x264? It
> should be better to compare
> vp8 at least with the mainline profile.
Better in what sense?

This is the discussion of the MTI for RTCWEB; the proponents of H.264 as 
MTI have proposed:

    The core of the proposal is that H.264 Constrained Baseline Profile
    Level 1.2 MUST be supported as Mandatory To Implement video codec.
    To enable higher quality for devices capable of it, support for H.264
    Constrained High Profile Level 1.3, extended to support 720p
    resolution at 30 Hz framerate is RECOMMENDED.

(draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal-01.txt section 1)

The scripts we have published is trying to compare what the H.264 
proponents have proposed for MTI with what the VP8 proponents have 
proposed for MTI.

>
> Cheers,
> Luca
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>>
>> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>>        --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>>        --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset veryslow \
>>        --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>>        --tune psnr \
>>        -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>>        2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>
>> vs:
>>
>>   ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} --kf-min-dist=3000
>> \
>>        --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1
>> --static-thresh=0 \
>>        --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 --max-q=56 \
>>        --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
>>        --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
>>        --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good
>> --noise-sensitivity=0 \
>>        -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
>>        -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>>        &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>
>>
>> Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither
>> generates periodic keyframes.
>>
>> Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the
>> parameters that were recommended for this test by people who like this
>> particular codec implementation.
>>
>> Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering about?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>> Sergio
>>
>> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
>>
>> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This
>> latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. We
>> would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
>> could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can
>> make further improvements.
>>
>> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
>> "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>>
>> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>>
>> - A Quality comparison (psnr):
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>>
>> - An Encode Speed comparison:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>>
>> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips in
>> the test:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>>
>> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>>
>> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build and
>> run the tests.
>>
>> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also be
>> downloaded:
>>
>> VP8:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/index.html
>>
>> H.264:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>>
>> Adrian Grange
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>


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From: Luca De Cicco <ldecicco@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Ok, thanks for very clear explanation :).

Luca

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wr=
ote:
> On 04/04/2013 03:59 PM, Luca De Cicco wrote:
>>
>> Why did you use baseline instead of mainline or highline for x264? It
>> should be better to compare
>> vp8 at least with the mainline profile.
>
> Better in what sense?
>
> This is the discussion of the MTI for RTCWEB; the proponents of H.264 as =
MTI
> have proposed:
>
>    The core of the proposal is that H.264 Constrained Baseline Profile
>    Level 1.2 MUST be supported as Mandatory To Implement video codec.
>    To enable higher quality for devices capable of it, support for H.264
>    Constrained High Profile Level 1.3, extended to support 720p
>    resolution at 30 Hz framerate is RECOMMENDED.
>
> (draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal-01.txt section 1)
>
> The scripts we have published is trying to compare what the H.264 propone=
nts
> have proposed for MTI with what the VP8 proponents have proposed for MTI.
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Luca
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Adrian,
>>>
>>> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>>>
>>> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>>>        --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>>>        --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset
>>> veryslow \
>>>        --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>>>        --tune psnr \
>>>        -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename}=
 \
>>>        2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>>
>>> vs:
>>>
>>>   ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate}
>>> --kf-min-dist=3D3000
>>> \
>>>        --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame_rate}/1
>>> --static-thresh=3D0 \
>>>        --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2
>>> --max-q=3D56 \
>>>        --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-sz=3D1000 \
>>>        --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000 --max-intra-rate=
=3D1200 \
>>>        --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 --good
>>> --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \
>>>        -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 \
>>>        -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>>>        &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither
>>> generates periodic keyframes.
>>>
>>> Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the
>>> parameters that were recommended for this test by people who like this
>>> particular codec implementation.
>>>
>>> Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering
>>> about?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Sergio
>>>
>>> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:
>>>
>>> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This
>>> latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set.
>>> We
>>> would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how
>>> we
>>> could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we ca=
n
>>> make further improvements.
>>>
>>> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
>>> "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>>>
>>> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>>>
>>> - A Quality comparison (psnr):
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>>>
>>> - An Encode Speed comparison:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>>>
>>> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clip=
s
>>> in
>>> the test:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>>>
>>> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>>> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>>> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>>>
>>> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build
>>> and
>>> run the tests.
>>>
>>> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also
>>> be
>>> downloaded:
>>>
>>> VP8:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/index.html
>>>
>>> H.264:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>>>
>>> Adrian Grange
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>

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--047d7b3a98b891777304d98a4c85
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Folks may be aware that there have been some ongoing discussions on how to
create common vocabulary for a set of core elements discussed in a swath of
RAI area working groups.  For those interested in following the work, the
task has moved to AVTEXT; those interested in following the work should do
so there.

regards,

Ted Hardie

--047d7b3a98b891777304d98a4c85
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Folks may be aware that there have been some ongoing discussions on how to =
create common vocabulary for a set of core elements discussed in a swath of=
 RAI area working groups.=A0 For those interested in following the work, th=
e task has moved to AVTEXT; those interested in following the work should d=
o so there.<br>
<br>regards,<br><br>Ted Hardie<br>

--047d7b3a98b891777304d98a4c85--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Harald,

I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have posted.

1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between the 
initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of sequence 
gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s then the 
intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264.

With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame has 
a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length of 
these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality 
difference between an I frame and subsequent frames.

x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate 
substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach. 
During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't find 
a way to persuade x264 to behave differently.

This is a good illustration of why including rate control in comparisons 
is a bad idea.

2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is 
using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P") where 
every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a constant 
target per frame.

Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you 
10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. Again 
I don't know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is applicable 
to any codec and is used in the JM reference.

3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be 
ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when 
encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:

- setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to 
run single threaded by default)
- reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the 
load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).

So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than 
vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than before. 
vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range 
of hierarchical P coding improvements.

Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at 
these high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no 
doubt as other more practical settings have been targeted. x264 appears 
to have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have.

4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma 
and chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma PSNR 
at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma PSNR or 
(possibly) give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is 
generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would 
very much like separate component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote 
above are luma PSNR.

If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to 
h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you 
have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and 
test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or 
similar GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP 
hierarchies.

Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs trying 
to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and using rate 
control with different strategies is just a waste of time. The first two 
elements in the list above are alone worth a very significant amount of 
bit rate.

On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest 
that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation between 
implementations of the same technology would be bigger than the 
variation between the technologies. If we could agree that then a lot of 
time could be saved.

best regards

Thomas




On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>
> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset 
> veryslow \
>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>       --tune psnr \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> vs:
>
>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} 
> --kf-min-dist=3000 \
>       --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1 
> --static-thresh=0 \
>       --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 
> --max-q=56 \
>       --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
>       --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
>       --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good 
> --noise-sensitivity=0 \
>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
> &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> Best regards
> Sergio
>
> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
>> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. 
>> This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the 
>> previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made 
>> suggestions as to how we could improve our methodology and encourage 
>> suggestions as to how we can make further improvements.
>>
>> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with 
>> the "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>>
>> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>>
>> - A Quality comparison (psnr): 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>>
>> - An Encode Speed comparison: 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>>
>> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the 
>> clips in the test: 
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>>
>> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>>
>> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to 
>> build and run the tests.
>>
>> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can 
>> also be downloaded:
>>
>> VP8:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos 
>> <http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html
>>
>> H.264:
>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>>
>> Adrian Grange
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



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    Harald,<br>
    <br>
    I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have
    posted.<br>
    <br>
    1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between
    the initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of
    sequence gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s
    then the intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264. <br>
    <br>
    With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame
    has a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the
    length of these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the
    quality difference between an I frame and subsequent frames. <br>
    <br>
    x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate
    substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different
    approach. During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse.
    I can't find a way to persuade x264 to behave differently. <br>
    <br>
    This is a good illustration of why including rate control in
    comparisons is a bad idea. <br>
    <br>
    2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc
    is using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P")
    where every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a
    constant target per frame.<br>
    <br>
    Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you
    10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency.
    Again I don't know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is
    applicable to any codec and is used in the JM reference.<br>
    <br>
    3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be
    ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when
    encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:<br>
    <br>
    - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems
    to run single threaded by default)<br>
    - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces
    the load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).<br>
    <br>
    So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster
    than vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than
    before. vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within
    the range of hierarchical P coding improvements.<br>
    &nbsp; <br>
    Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at
    these high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no
    doubt as other more practical settings have been targeted. x264
    appears to have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have. <br>
    <br>
    4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined
    luma and chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve
    chroma PSNR at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to
    ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly) give it a small weight. The
    arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the
    PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would very much like separate
    component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.<br>
    <br>
    If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
    to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best
    settings you have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time
    implementation) and test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally
    you would use the same or similar GOP structures, number of
    references, prediction and QP hierarchies. <br>
    <br>
    Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs
    trying to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and
    using rate control with different strategies is just a waste of
    time. The first two elements in the list above are alone worth a
    very significant amount of bit rate. <br>
    <br>
    On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest
    that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation
    between implementations of the same technology would be bigger than
    the variation between the technologies. If we could agree that then
    a lot of time could be saved.<br>
    <br>
    best regards<br>
    <br>
    Thomas <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D3FA1.6050305@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adrian,<br>
        <br>
        Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is
        comparable?<br>
        <br>
        x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
        <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite
        --preset veryslow \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv
        ${filename} \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
        <br>
        vs: <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate}
        --kf-min-dist=3000 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1
        --static-thresh=0 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2
        --max-q=56 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000
        --max-intra-rate=1200 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good
        --noise-sensitivity=0 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \ <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
        <br>
        Best regards<br>
        Sergio<br>
        <br>
        El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi&oacute;:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPVCLWbajJNS-DbXS-AJjakwovBKhhpXAmBaR_LYKjCyk7UnYg@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
        <div dir="ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results
          comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for
          some of the problems in the previous set. We would like to
          extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
          could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to
          how we can make further improvements.
          <div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div style="">In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow"
              preset and VP8 with the "good, speed 0" setting in an
              attempt to produce comparable results.</div>
            <div style=""><br>
            </div>
            <div style=""> An overview of our results is available as
              follows:</div>
            <div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a></div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode
                all of the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt"
                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span
                style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can



                either be downloaded from:</span><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a></div>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div>
              <div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">git clone <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></font><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The



                file README.txt, contained within, presents details of
                how to build and run the tests.</div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The



                compressed video files--the output from the quality
                tests--can also be downloaded:</div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div
                style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                <div><span class=""
                    style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8</span>:</div>
                <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span class=""
                    style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">H</span>.<span
                    class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
                <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div style="">Adrian Grange<br>
                </div>
                <div style=""> <br>
                </div>
                <div style=""><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
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From matthew@matthew.at  Thu Apr  4 08:08:49 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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On 4/3/2013 9:20 AM, Adrian Grange wrote:
> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264.

Why?

Is there really anyone on the list who is making a decision based on 
perceived quality?

And if so, would they care what anyone's tests other than their own showed?

Matthew Kaufman


From adam@nostrum.com  Thu Apr  4 08:23:23 2013
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On 4/4/13 10:08, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> And if so, would they care what anyone's tests other than their own 
> showed?

I for one, applaud the approach of publishing the exact tools and 
options used for encoding. Without that kind of transparency, it becomes 
very difficult to trust purported output. It's a "many eyes" approach to 
finding flaws with the comparisons thet goes a long way towards 
preventing claims of tester bias.

I do find it a bit odd that, although we've had proponents of both 
solutions show what they purport to be output of the codecs, the only 
"don't take my word for it, replicate my results at home on your own 
machine" transparency I've seen has been from the VP8 camp.

/a

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On 04/04/2013 08:23 AM, Adam Roach wrote:
> On 4/4/13 10:08, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
>> And if so, would they care what anyone's tests other than their own
>> showed?
> 
> I for one, applaud the approach of publishing the exact tools and options
> used for encoding. Without that kind of transparency, it becomes very
> difficult to trust purported output. It's a "many eyes" approach to finding
> flaws with the comparisons thet goes a long way towards preventing claims
> of tester bias.
> 
> I do find it a bit odd that, although we've had proponents of both
> solutions show what they purport to be output of the codecs, the only
> "don't take my word for it, replicate my results at home on your own
> machine" transparency I've seen has been from the VP8 camp.
> 

That shows that there is a fundamental asymmetry between the VP8 camp and the
H.264.  It is nice to see technical comparisons like this one - and more of
them are needed - but a more important discussion, in my opinion, should be
about the fact that the VP8 camp is fundamentally about inclusiveness and the
H.264 camp about exclusiveness.  Cullen's comment in the meeting about the
fact that there is only 4 browsers and that they all but Mozilla have a fully
paid license for H.264 is symptomatic of the blindness of the H.264 camp to
the need of the RTCWeb/Webrtc community at large.  OTOH, the VP8 camp
consistently demonstrated, as with the OP email, willingness to work with the
community and make RTCWeb/Webrtc available and affordable to the whole
spectrum of participants.

As an independent developer, I do not need to look at the results of the tests
to choose my camp.

- -- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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>
> If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to
> h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you ha=
ve
> (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
> against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or simil=
ar
> GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
>
I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it
benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in
practice?

The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a
constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)

A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to
make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low
latency and constrained bitrate.

On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com> wrote:

>  Harald,
>
> I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have poste=
d.
>
> 1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between the
> initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of sequence
> gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s then the intra
> frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264.
>
> With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame has a
> big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length of these
> clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality difference
> between an I frame and subsequent frames.
>
> x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate
> substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach.
> During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't find a
> way to persuade x264 to behave differently.
>
> This is a good illustration of why including rate control in comparisons
> is a bad idea.
>
> 2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is
> using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P") where
> every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a constant
> target per frame.
>
> Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you
> 10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. Again =
I
> don't know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is applicable to a=
ny
> codec and is used in the JM reference.
>
> 3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be ideal
> after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when encoding
> gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:
>
> - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to run
> single threaded by default)
> - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the loa=
d
> very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).
>
> So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than
> vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than before. vpxen=
c
> is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range of
> hierarchical P coding improvements.
>
> Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at these
> high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no doubt as
> other more practical settings have been targeted. x264 appears to have a
> quality ceiling that the JM does not have.
>
> 4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma and
> chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma PSNR at a
> small cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma PSNR or
> (possibly) give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is
> generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would
> very much like separate component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote abo=
ve
> are luma PSNR.
>
> If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to
> h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you ha=
ve
> (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
> against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or simil=
ar
> GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
>
> Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs trying
> to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and using rate
> control with different strategies is just a waste of time. The first two
> elements in the list above are alone worth a very significant amount of b=
it
> rate.
>
> On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest that
> vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation between
> implementations of the same technology would be bigger than the variation
> between the technologies. If we could agree that then a lot of time could
> be saved.
>
> best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>
> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset veryslo=
w
> \
>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>       --tune psnr \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> vs:
>
>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate}
> --kf-min-dist=3D3000 \
>       --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame_rate}/1
> --static-thresh=3D0 \
>       --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --=
max-q=3D56
> \
>       --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-sz=3D1000 \
>       --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000 --max-intra-rate=3D1=
200 \
>       --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 --good
> --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \
>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>       &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> Best regards
> Sergio
>
> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:
>
> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This
> latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. W=
e
> would like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how w=
e
> could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can
> make further improvements.
>
>  In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
> "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>
>  An overview of our results is available as follows:
>
>  - A Quality comparison (psnr):
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>
>  - An Encode Speed comparison:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>
>  - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips
> in the test:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>
>  All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>   http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>  or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>
>  The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build
> and run the tests.
>
>  The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also
> be downloaded:
>
>  VP8:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/index.html
>
>  H.264:
> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>
>  Adrian Grange
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing listrtcweb@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
tcweb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing listrtcweb@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
tcweb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>

--14dae94ed9a39983a504d98bd694
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">If the purpose is to show=
 whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
    to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best
    settings you have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time
    implementation) and test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally
    you would use the same or similar GOP structures, number of
    references, prediction and QP hierarchies. <br></blockquote><div>I thou=
ght WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it benefit us =
if we test settings that won&#39;t be used or can&#39;t be used in practice=
?<br>
<br>The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a co=
nstrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren&#39;t archiving videos here :)<br>=
<br>A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull=
 to make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moment=
s.<br>
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low=
 latency and constrained bitrate.<br>=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
thdavies@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">thdavies@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Harald,<br>
    <br>
    I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have
    posted.<br>
    <br>
    1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between
    the initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of
    sequence gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s
    then the intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264. <br>
    <br>
    With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame
    has a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the
    length of these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the
    quality difference between an I frame and subsequent frames. <br>
    <br>
    x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate
    substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different
    approach. During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse.
    I can&#39;t find a way to persuade x264 to behave differently. <br>
    <br>
    This is a good illustration of why including rate control in
    comparisons is a bad idea. <br>
    <br>
    2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc
    is using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 (&quot;hiercharchical-P=
&quot;)
    where every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a
    constant target per frame.<br>
    <br>
    Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you
    10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency.
    Again I don&#39;t know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is
    applicable to any codec and is used in the JM reference.<br>
    <br>
    3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be
    ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when
    encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:<br>
    <br>
    - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems
    to run single threaded by default)<br>
    - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces
    the load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).<br>
    <br>
    So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster
    than vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than
    before. vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within
    the range of hierarchical P coding improvements.<br>
    =A0 <br>
    Incidentally, I don&#39;t think that x264 performs particularly well at
    these high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no
    doubt as other more practical settings have been targeted. x264
    appears to have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have. <br>
    <br>
    4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined
    luma and chroma over all frames. It&#39;s relatively easy to improve
    chroma PSNR at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to
    ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly) give it a small weight. The
    arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the
    PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would very much like separate
    component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.<br>
    <br>
    If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
    to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best
    settings you have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time
    implementation) and test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally
    you would use the same or similar GOP structures, number of
    references, prediction and QP hierarchies. <br>
    <br>
    Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs
    trying to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and
    using rate control with different strategies is just a waste of
    time. The first two elements in the list above are alone worth a
    very significant amount of bit rate. <br>
    <br>
    On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest
    that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely &quot;comparable&quot; and the variati=
on
    between implementations of the same technology would be bigger than
    the variation between the technologies. If we could agree that then
    a lot of time could be saved.<br>
    <br>
    best regards<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    Thomas <br></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div>Hi Adrian,<br>
        <br>
        Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is
        comparable?<br>
        <br>
        x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
        <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate=
} \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite
        --preset veryslow \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --tune psnr \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mk=
v
        ${filename} \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
        <br>
        vs: <br>
        <br>
        =A0./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate}
        --kf-min-dist=3D3000 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame=
_rate}/1
        --static-thresh=3D0 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcb=
r --min-q=3D2
        --max-q=3D56 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-s=
z=3D1000 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000
        --max-intra-rate=3D1200 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 =
--good
        --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 =
\ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.web=
m \ <br>
        =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <b=
r>
        <br>
        Best regards<br>
        Sergio<br>
        <br>
        El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <div dir=3D"ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results
          comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for
          some of the problems in the previous set. We would like to
          extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
          could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to
          how we can make further improvements.
          <div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>In these tests we run x264 with the &quot;veryslow&quot;
              preset and VP8 with the &quot;good, speed 0&quot; setting in =
an
              attempt to produce comparable results.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> An overview of our results is available as
              follows:</div>
            <div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b=
r>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A Quality comparison (psnr):=A0<a href=3D"http://downloads.=
webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html" target=3D"_blank">http=
://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a></div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b=
r>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                An Encode Speed comparison:=A0<a href=3D"http://downloads.w=
ebmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html" target=3D"_blank">http://=
downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b=
r>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode
                all of the clips in the test:=A0<a href=3D"http://downloads=
.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>All of our test scripts=A0<span style=3D"font-size:13px;fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can



                either be downloaded from:</span><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:13px">
                  <a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp=
8_vs_h264.tar.xz" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_t=
ests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a></div>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px">
                or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div>
              <div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">git clone <a=
 href=3D"http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git" target=3D"_=
blank">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></font><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px">The



                file README.txt, contained within, presents details of
                how to build and run the tests.</div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px">The



                compressed video files--the output from the quality
                tests--can also be downloaded:</div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px">
                <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8<=
/span>:</div>
                <div><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests=
/vp8_videos/" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests=
/vp8_videos</a>/index.html</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">H</s=
pan>.<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
                <div><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests=
/h264_videos/index.html" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org=
/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Adrian Grange<br>
                </div>
                <div> <br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre>_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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From radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil  Thu Apr  4 10:02:58 2013
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Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Yes, real-time applications (i.e. two-way or multipoint conversation)
performance requirements are fundamentally much more stringent than those of
the near-real-time (i.e. video streaming)/nor-real-time applications.

So, settings for testing for each one of those applications must be done
accordingly.

Best regards,
Radhika

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Leon Geyser
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM
To: Thomas Davies
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded

	If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you
have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar
GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies. 
	

I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it
benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in
practice?

The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a
constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)

A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to
make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low
latency and constrained bitrate.
 
On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com> wrote:


	Harald,



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


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From: "Thomas Davies (thdavies)" <thdavies@cisco.com>
To: "Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)" <radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil>, Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)
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The single-core encode speed I get from these settings is <5fps for the exa=
mple I chose (which is one of the data points), so these are *not* real tim=
e tests.

My understanding is that Google have selected a non-real-time encoding mode=
 to show the capabilities of the VP8 technology and attempted to do the sam=
e with x264, hence the --tune veryslow parameter.=20

Best regards

Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US) [mailto:radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil]=20
Sent: 04 April 2013 18:03
To: Leon Geyser; Thomas Davies (thdavies)
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Yes, real-time applications (i.e. two-way or multipoint conversation)
performance requirements are fundamentally much more stringent than those o=
f
the near-real-time (i.e. video streaming)/nor-real-time applications.

So, settings for testing for each one of those applications must be done
accordingly.

Best regards,
Radhika

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Leon Geyser
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM
To: Thomas Davies
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded

	If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you
have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar
GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.=20
=09

I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it
benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in
practice?

The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a
constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)

A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to
make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low
latency and constrained bitrate.
=20
On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com> wrote:


	Harald,



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)
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On 04/04/2013 08:23 PM, Thomas Davies (thdavies) wrote:
> The single-core encode speed I get from these settings is <5fps for the example I chose (which is one of the data points), so these are *not* real time tests.
>
> My understanding is that Google have selected a non-real-time encoding mode to show the capabilities of the VP8 technology and attempted to do the same with x264, hence the --tune veryslow parameter.

One of the tests we provide is a comparision of the encode time vs 
quality for the two codecs.
Of course this one varies a LOT even between different developers' 
machines (the absolute numbers, that is) - machines are very different 
in how fast they encode. Try it out!

>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US) [mailto:radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil]
> Sent: 04 April 2013 18:03
> To: Leon Geyser; Thomas Davies (thdavies)
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> Yes, real-time applications (i.e. two-way or multipoint conversation)
> performance requirements are fundamentally much more stringent than those of
> the near-real-time (i.e. video streaming)/nor-real-time applications.
>
> So, settings for testing for each one of those applications must be done
> accordingly.
>
> Best regards,
> Radhika
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leon Geyser
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM
> To: Thomas Davies
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
>
> 	If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology*
> to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you
> have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
> against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar
> GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
> 	
>
> I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it
> benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in
> practice?
>
> The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a
> constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)
>
> A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to
> make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.
> I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low
> latency and constrained bitrate.
>   
> On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
> 	Harald,
>
>
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On 04/04/2013 05:05 PM, Thomas Davies wrote:
> Harald,
>
> I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have 
> posted.
>
> 1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between 
> the initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of 
> sequence gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s 
> then the intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264.
>
> With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame 
> has a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length 
> of these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality 
> difference between an I frame and subsequent frames.
>
> x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate 
> substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach. 
> During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't 
> find a way to persuade x264 to behave differently.
>
> This is a good illustration of why including rate control in 
> comparisons is a bad idea.

Alternatively, it is a good illustration of why demonstrating codecs 
without rate control when the applications they are going to be used in 
require rate control is a thoroughly bogus idea.

A large size of the initial iframe doesn't necessarily mean that the 
bitrate is very high for the first 0.05 seconds, however - one might 
choose to accept a few extra milliseconds of "setup delay" while the 
first iframe is transmitted rather than going with a lower quality 
experience at the start of the call.

>
> 2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is 
> using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P") 
> where every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a 
> constant target per frame.
>
> Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you 
> 10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. 
> Again I don't know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is 
> applicable to any codec and is used in the JM reference.

I'm sure you can plug in any encoder you want into the test framework if 
you want to. I'm not sure we can plug in the JM reference codec, however 
- I don't remember offhand what license it's under, but suspect that 
it's "only for use within the MPEG standards process".

>
> 3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be 
> ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when 
> encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:
>
> - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to 
> run single threaded by default)
> - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the 
> load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).
>
> So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than 
> vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than before. 
> vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range 
> of hierarchical P coding improvements.
>
> Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at 
> these high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no 
> doubt as other more practical settings have been targeted. x264 
> appears to have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have.

Thanks - certainly worth looking at!

>
> 4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma 
> and chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma 
> PSNR at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma 
> PSNR or (possibly) give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of 
> frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole 
> sequence, also. I would very much like separate component PSNRs in 
> tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.

"is generally used" is such a nice statement ... the whole psnr.c source 
code in the test framework is 148 lines long, most of it error checking; 
I'm happy to see a suggestion for a different psnr measurement method - 
preferably with accompanying source (and a license that allows us to use 
it).

>
> If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to 
> h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you 
> have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and 
> test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same 
> or similar GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP 
> hierarchies.

Why? I've always had a problem with this idea that if one technology 
does better than another because it's good at using some particular 
tool, that means that one should handicap it by preventing it from using 
that particular tool in the way it's good at.

Test conditions should (in my opinion) be limited to what's observable, 
and what matters to the particular conditions we're looking at. In the 
realtime case, delay, ability to stay within reasonable bandwidth bounds 
and picture quality are the most obvious things that come to mind; at 
other times, resilience and adaptability have also been mentioned. But 
limiting allowable QP hierarchies is, to my mind, not only irrelevant, 
it's absurd.

>
> Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs 
> trying to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and 
> using rate control with different strategies is just a waste of time. 
> The first two elements in the list above are alone worth a very 
> significant amount of bit rate.
>
> On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest 
> that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation 
> between implementations of the same technology would be bigger than 
> the variation between the technologies. If we could agree that then a 
> lot of time could be saved.

Indeed. Of course, the presentation by Cisco in Orlando did not make it 
easy to see that such an agreement was going to be achieved.

Are you suggesting that this is a reasonable conclusion?

>
> best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>>
>> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset 
>> veryslow \
>>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>>       --tune psnr \
>>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>
>> vs:
>>
>>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} 
>> --kf-min-dist=3000 \
>>       --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1 
>> --static-thresh=0 \
>>       --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 
>> --max-q=56 \
>>       --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
>>       --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
>>       --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good 
>> --noise-sensitivity=0 \
>>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
>>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
>>       &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>>
>> Best regards
>> Sergio
>>
>> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
>>> We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. 
>>> This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the 
>>> previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made 
>>> suggestions as to how we could improve our methodology and encourage 
>>> suggestions as to how we can make further improvements.
>>>
>>> In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with 
>>> the "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.
>>>
>>> An overview of our results is available as follows:
>>>
>>> - A Quality comparison (psnr): 
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>>>
>>> - An Encode Speed comparison: 
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>>>
>>> - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the 
>>> clips in the test: 
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>>>
>>> All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>>> or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>>> git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>>>
>>> The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to 
>>> build and run the tests.
>>>
>>> The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can 
>>> also be downloaded:
>>>
>>> VP8:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos 
>>> <http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html
>>>
>>> H.264:
>>> http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>>>
>>> Adrian Grange
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/04/2013 05:05 PM, Thomas Davies
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      Harald,<br>
      <br>
      I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you
      have posted.<br>
      <br>
      1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference
      between the initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one
      frame of sequence gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the
      script at 1Mb/s then the intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8
      than with x264. <br>
      <br>
      With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I
      frame has a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly
      the length of these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing
      the quality difference between an I frame and subsequent frames. <br>
      <br>
      x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate
      substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different
      approach. During this ramp up period the quality is very much
      worse. I can't find a way to persuade x264 to behave differently.
      <br>
      <br>
      This is a good illustration of why including rate control in
      comparisons is a bad idea. <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Alternatively, it is a good illustration of why demonstrating codecs
    without rate control when the applications they are going to be used
    in require rate control is a thoroughly bogus idea.<br>
    <br>
    A large size of the initial iframe doesn't necessarily mean that the
    bitrate is very high for the first 0.05 seconds, however - one might
    choose to accept a few extra milliseconds of "setup delay" while the
    first iframe is transmitted rather than going with a lower quality
    experience at the start of the call.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems
      vpxenc is using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8
      ("hiercharchical-P") where every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than
      the others. x264 has a constant target per frame.<br>
      <br>
      Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get
      you 10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in
      latency. Again I don't know how to make x264 do this, but the
      technique is applicable to any codec and is used in the JM
      reference.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'm sure you can plug in any encoder you want into the test
    framework if you want to. I'm not sure we can plug in the JM
    reference codec, however - I don't remember offhand what license
    it's under, but suspect that it's "only for use within the MPEG
    standards process".<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to
      be ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that
      when encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:<br>
      <br>
      - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems
      to run single threaded by default)<br>
      - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces
      the load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).<br>
      <br>
      So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster
      than vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than
      before. vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly
      within the range of hierarchical P coding improvements.<br>
      &nbsp; <br>
      Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well
      at these high complexity settings, at least for video
      conferencing, no doubt as other more practical settings have been
      targeted. x264 appears to have a quality ceiling that the JM does
      not have. <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Thanks - certainly worth looking at!<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined
      luma and chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve
      chroma PSNR at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to
      ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly) give it a small weight. The
      arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the
      PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would very much like separate
      component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    "is generally used" is such a nice statement ... the whole psnr.c
    source code in the test framework is 148 lines long, most of it
    error checking; I'm happy to see a suggestion for a different psnr
    measurement method - preferably with accompanying source (and a
    license that allows us to use it).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a
      *technology* to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use
      the best settings you have (ideally with a special full-on
      non-real time implementation) and test against the JM reference
      encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar GOP structures,
      number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies. <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Why? I've always had a problem with this idea that if one technology
    does better than another because it's good at using some particular
    tool, that means that one should handicap it by preventing it from
    using that particular tool in the way it's good at.<br>
    <br>
    Test conditions should (in my opinion) be limited to what's
    observable, and what matters to the particular conditions we're
    looking at. In the realtime case, delay, ability to stay within
    reasonable bandwidth bounds and picture quality are the most obvious
    things that come to mind; at other times, resilience and
    adaptability have also been mentioned. But limiting allowable QP
    hierarchies is, to my mind, not only irrelevant, it's absurd.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs
      trying to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and
      using rate control with different strategies is just a waste of
      time. The first two elements in the list above are alone worth a
      very significant amount of bit rate. <br>
      <br>
      On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would
      suggest that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the
      variation between implementations of the same technology would be
      bigger than the variation between the technologies. If we could
      agree that then a lot of time could be saved.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Indeed. Of course, the presentation by Cisco in Orlando did not make
    it easy to see that such an agreement was going to be achieved.<br>
    <br>
    Are you suggesting that this is a reasonable conclusion?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:515D96A2.1000602@cisco.com" type="cite"> <br>
      best regards<br>
      <br>
      Thomas <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
      <blockquote cite="mid:515D3FA1.6050305@gmail.com" type="cite">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=ISO-8859-1">
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adrian,<br>
          <br>
          Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is
          comparable?<br>
          <br>
          x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate}
          \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite
          --preset veryslow \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv
          ${filename} \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
          <br>
          vs: <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate}
          --kf-min-dist=3000 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1
          --static-thresh=0 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2
          --max-q=56 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
          <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000
          --max-intra-rate=1200 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good
          --noise-sensitivity=0 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \ <br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
          <br>
          Best regards<br>
          Sergio<br>
          <br>
          El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi&oacute;:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPVCLWbajJNS-DbXS-AJjakwovBKhhpXAmBaR_LYKjCyk7UnYg@mail.gmail.com"
          type="cite">
          <div dir="ltr">We have uploaded a new set of test results
            comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for
            some of the problems in the previous set. We would like to
            extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we
            could improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as
            to how we can make further improvements.
            <div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div style="">In these tests we run x264 with the
                "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the "good, speed 0"
                setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.</div>
              <div style=""><br>
              </div>
              <div style=""> An overview of our results is available as
                follows:</div>
              <div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                  A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a></div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                  An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a></div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">-
                  A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode
                  all of the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt"
                    target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span
                  style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">can




                  either be downloaded from:</span><br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div
                    style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz"
                      target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a></div>
                </div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                  or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:</div>
                <div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">git clone
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git">http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></font><br>
                </div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
                </div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The




                  file README.txt, contained within, presents details of
                  how to build and run the tests.</div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
                </div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The




                  compressed video files--the output from the quality
                  tests--can also be downloaded:</div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
                </div>
                <div
                  style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
                  <div><span class=""
                      style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">VP8</span>:</div>
                  <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/"
                      target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><span class=""
                      style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">H</span>.<span
                      class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204)">264</span>:</div>
                  <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="">Adrian Grange<br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=""> <br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=""><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
          <br>
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</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
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From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To: Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com>, "Thomas Davies (thdavies)" <thdavies@cisco.com>, Adrian Grange <agrange@google.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Harald Alvestrand (harald@alvestrand.no)" <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 23:28:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important for th=
e actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that these factors ha=
ve nothing to do with the codec technology itself, since they are purely en=
coder implementation optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 st=
andard that uniquely provides realtime/low latency or constrained bitrate. =
Those are attributes of encoder implementations which are not part of the s=
tandard.

So the question was whether we care about evaluating codec technology or sp=
ecific implementations. If the former, then tests should be staged in the s=
ame way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools. If the latter, then =
tests should be staged using the target implementations.

I'm not aware of conferencing applications which use x264, because it was d=
esigned and optimized for transcoding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not conferencin=
g. Most importantly, x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since =
it is for broadcast MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR to a=
void M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it will actually insert filler dat=
a instead of real frame data to hit the CBR rate exactly. Looking at the re=
sults which show the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) in gipsrecstat_128=
0_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as much filler data as real frame da=
ta, meaning the true bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is repo=
rted in the results. (See attached if it makes it through.)

While the results are bad, the methodology, effort and transparency are ver=
y good (if we want to compare implementations not standards). I can rerun w=
ithout the bogus fillers and post the results next week, unless someone els=
e can do it faster. But as Thomas pointed out, the technologies themselves =
are comparable as far as coding tools, so any results which show significan=
t differences are either suspect or explained by differences in encoder imp=
lementations or settings not the codec technology itself.

Mo


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Leon Geyser
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM
To: Thomas Davies (thdavies)
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded

If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to h264=
 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you have (id=
eally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test against=
 the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar GOP st=
ructures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it benef=
it us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in practice?

The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a constr=
ained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)

A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to =
make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low=
 latency and constrained bitrate.

On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com<mailto:thdavies@ci=
sco.com>> wrote:
Harald,

I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have posted.

1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between the in=
itial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of sequence gipsr=
ecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s then the intra frame =
is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264.

With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame has a b=
ig impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length of these cl=
ips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality difference between =
an I frame and subsequent frames.

x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate substant=
ially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach. During this =
ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't find a way to persua=
de x264 to behave differently.

This is a good illustration of why including rate control in comparisons is=
 a bad idea.

2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is usin=
g a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P") where every 8=
th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a constant target per=
 frame.

Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you 10-20%=
 gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. Again I don't =
know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is applicable to any codec=
 and is used in the JM reference.

3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be ideal a=
fter all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when encoding gipsreco=
motion at 1Mb/s:

- setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to run s=
ingle threaded by default)
- reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the load =
very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).

So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than vpxe=
nc for this data point and had much better quality than before. vpxenc is s=
till better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range of hierarchical=
 P coding improvements.

Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at these h=
igh complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no doubt as other=
 more practical settings have been targeted. x264 appears to have a quality=
 ceiling that the JM does not have.

4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma and c=
hroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma PSNR at a sma=
ll cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly)=
 give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs is generally us=
ed rather than the PSNR of the whole sequence, also. I would very much like=
 separate component PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR=
.

If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to h264=
 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you have (id=
eally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test against=
 the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar GOP st=
ructures, number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.

Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs trying to=
 do high quality coding with different GOP structures and using rate contro=
l with different strategies is just a waste of time. The first two elements=
 in the list above are alone worth a very significant amount of bit rate.

On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest that v=
p8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation between implement=
ations of the same technology would be bigger than the variation between th=
e technologies. If we could agree that then a lot of time could be saved.

best regards

Thomas




On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
Hi Adrian,

Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?

x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
      --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
      --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset veryslow =
\
      --input-res ${width}x${height} \
      --tune psnr \
      -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
      2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

vs:

 ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate} --kf-min-dist=
=3D3000 \
      --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame_rate}/1 --static-=
thresh=3D0 \
      --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --ma=
x-q=3D56 \
      --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-sz=3D1000 \
      --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000 --max-intra-rate=3D120=
0 \
      --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 --good --noise-sen=
sitivity=3D0 \
      -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 \
      -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
      &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

Best regards
Sergio

El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:
We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This lat=
est set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. We wou=
ld like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we cou=
ld improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can make =
further improvements.

In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the "goo=
d, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.

An overview of our results is available as follows:

- A Quality comparison (psnr): http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/=
vp8_vs_h264_quality.html

- An Encode Speed comparison: http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/v=
p8_vs_h264_speed.html

- A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips in=
 the test: http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime=
.txt

All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git

The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build and=
 run the tests.

The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also be =
downloaded:

VP8:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos<http://downloads.web=
mproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html

H.264:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html

Adrian Grange







_______________________________________________

rtcweb mailing list

rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



_______________________________________________

rtcweb mailing list

rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Realtime/low latency and constrained bi=
trate are obviously important for the actual implementation used. Thomas wa=
s pointing out that these factors have nothing to do with
 the codec technology itself, since they are purely encoder implementation =
optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 standard that uniquely =
provides realtime/low latency or constrained bitrate. Those are attributes =
of encoder implementations which
 are not part of the standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So the question was whether we care abo=
ut evaluating codec technology or specific implementations. If the former, =
then tests should be staged in the same way codec experts
 evaluate codec technology/tools. If the latter, then tests should be stage=
d using the target implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;m not aware of conferencing app=
lications which use x264, because it was designed and optimized for transco=
ding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not conferencing. Most importantly,
 x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since it is for broadcast =
MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR to avoid M2TS-mux overfl=
ow or underflow, and it will actually insert filler data instead of real fr=
ame data to hit the CBR rate exactly.
 Looking at the results which show the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) =
in gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as much filler dat=
a as real frame data, meaning the true bitrate of real frame data is almost=
 half what is reported in the results.
 (See attached if it makes it through.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">While the results are bad, the methodol=
ogy, effort and transparency are very good (if we want to compare implement=
ations not standards). I can rerun without the bogus fillers
 and post the results next week, unless someone else can do it faster. But =
as Thomas pointed out, the technologies themselves are comparable as far as=
 coding tools, so any results which show significant differences are either=
 suspect or explained by differences
 in encoder implementations or settings not the codec technology itself.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Leon Geyser<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Thomas Davies (thdavies)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as=
 a *technology* to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the bes=
t settings you have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implement=
ation) and test against the JM reference
 encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar GOP structures, number =
of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communicati=
on. What would it benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can'=
t be used in practice?<br>
<br>
The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a constr=
ained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)<br>
<br>
A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be usefull to =
make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at certain moments.<b=
r>
I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay realtime/low=
 latency and constrained bitrate.<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:thdavies@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">thdavies@cisco.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Harald,<br>
<br>
I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have posted.=
<br>
<br>
1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between the in=
itial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of sequence gipsr=
ecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s then the intra frame =
is 3 times larger with vp8 than
 with x264. <br>
<br>
With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame has a b=
ig impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length of these cl=
ips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality difference between =
an I frame and subsequent frames.
<br>
<br>
x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate substant=
ially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach. During this =
ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't find a way to persua=
de x264 to behave differently.
<br>
<br>
This is a good illustration of why including rate control in comparisons is=
 a bad idea.
<br>
<br>
2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is usin=
g a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 (&quot;hiercharchical-P&quot;) whe=
re every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a constant =
target per frame.<br>
<br>
Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you 10-20%=
 gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. Again I don't =
know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is applicable to any codec=
 and is used in the JM reference.<br>
<br>
3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be ideal a=
fter all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when encoding gipsreco=
motion at 1Mb/s:<br>
<br>
- setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to run s=
ingle threaded by default)<br>
- reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the load =
very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).<br>
<br>
So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than vpxe=
nc for this data point and had much better quality than before. vpxenc is s=
till better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range of hierarchical=
 P coding improvements.<br>
&nbsp; <br>
Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at these h=
igh complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no doubt as other=
 more practical settings have been targeted. x264 appears to have a quality=
 ceiling that the JM does not have.
<br>
<br>
4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma and c=
hroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma PSNR at a sma=
ll cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly)=
 give it a small weight. The arithmetic
 mean of frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole se=
quence, also. I would very much like separate component PSNRs in tests. The=
 figures I quote above are luma PSNR.<br>
<br>
If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to h264=
 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you have (id=
eally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and test against=
 the JM reference encoder. Ideally
 you would use the same or similar GOP structures, number of references, pr=
ediction and QP hierarchies.
<br>
<br>
Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs trying to=
 do high quality coding with different GOP structures and using rate contro=
l with different strategies is just a waste of time. The first two elements=
 in the list above are alone worth
 a very significant amount of bit rate. <br>
<br>
On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest that v=
p8 and h264 CBP are likely &quot;comparable&quot; and the variation between=
 implementations of the same technology would be bigger than the variation =
between the technologies. If we could agree
 that then a lot of time could be saved.<br>
<br>
best regards<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<span class=3D"hoenzb">Thomas </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?<br>
<br>
x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${fra=
me_rate} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint in=
finite --preset veryslow \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}=
kbps.mkv ${filename} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.t=
xt <br>
<br>
vs: <br>
<br>
&nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate} --kf-min-=
dist=3D3000 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D=
${frame_rate}/1 --static-thresh=3D0 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usa=
ge=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --max-q=3D56 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 =
--buf-sz=3D1000 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D10=
00 --max-intra-rate=3D1200 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --pass=
es=3D1 --good --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=
=3Dvp8 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}k=
bps.webm \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps=
.txt <br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Sergio<br>
<br>
El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing=
 VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in t=
he previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made sugge=
stions as to how we could improve
 our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can make further im=
provements.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In these tests we run x264 with the &quot;veryslow&q=
uot; preset and VP8 with the &quot;good, speed 0&quot; setting in an attemp=
t to produce comparable results.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An overview of our results is available as follows:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_=
quality.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a hre=
f=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_spe=
ed.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- A comparison of the aggregate time requ=
ired to decode all of the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://downloa=
ds.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">can either b=
e downloaded from:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmpr=
oject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">or checked out of our git/gerrit reposito=
ry:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">git clone <a href=3D"http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_code=
c_comparison.git" target=3D"_blank">
http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The file README.txt, contained within, pr=
esents details of how to build and run the tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The compressed video files--the output fr=
om the quality tests--can also be downloaded:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">VP8</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">H</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">.<s=
pan style=3D"background:#FFFFCC">264</span>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.we=
bmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Adrian Grange<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "Adrian Grange (agrange@google.com)" <agrange@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 23:48:27 +0000
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References: <CAPVCLWbajJNS-DbXS-AJjakwovBKhhpXAmBaR_LYKjCyk7UnYg@mail.gmail.com> <515D3FA1.6050305@gmail.com> <515D8087.6080409@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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> Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering abou=
t?

--nal-hrd cbr and --bitrate, who suggested those? They were not part of the=
 suggested<http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/x264-devel/2013-March/0099=
20.html> settings from x264-devel.

Mo

From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Harald Alvestrand
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 9:31 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded

On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
Hi Adrian,

Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?

x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
      --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
      --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset veryslow =
\
      --input-res ${width}x${height} \
      --tune psnr \
      -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
      2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

vs:

 ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate} --kf-min-dist=
=3D3000 \
      --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D${frame_rate}/1 --static-=
thresh=3D0 \
      --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usage=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --ma=
x-q=3D56 \
      --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 --buf-sz=3D1000 \
      --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D1000 --max-intra-rate=3D120=
0 \
      --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --passes=3D1 --good --noise-sen=
sitivity=3D0 \
      -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=3Dvp8 \
      -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
      &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt

Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither gene=
rates periodic keyframes.

Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the paramet=
ers that were recommended for this test by people who like this particular =
codec implementation.

Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering about?




Best regards
Sergio

El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:
We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This lat=
est set contains fixes for some of the problems in the previous set. We wou=
ld like to extend our thanks to those who made suggestions as to how we cou=
ld improve our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can make =
further improvements.

In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the "goo=
d, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable results.

An overview of our results is available as follows:

- A Quality comparison (psnr): http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/=
vp8_vs_h264_quality.html

- An Encode Speed comparison: http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/v=
p8_vs_h264_speed.html

- A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the clips in=
 the test: http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime=
.txt

All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git

The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to build and=
 run the tests.

The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can also be =
downloaded:

VP8:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos<http://downloads.web=
mproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html

H.264:
http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html

Adrian Grange









_______________________________________________

rtcweb mailing list

rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb





_______________________________________________

rtcweb mailing list

rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; Was there any specific parameter or parameter s=
et you were wondering about?<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">--nal-hrd cbr and --bi=
trate, who suggested those? They were not part of the
<a href=3D"http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/x264-devel/2013-March/0099=
20.html">
suggested</a> settings from x264-devel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Mo<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ie=
tf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Harald Alvestrand<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 04, 2013 9:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 04/04/2013 10:53 AM, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?<br>
<br>
x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${fra=
me_rate} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint in=
finite --preset veryslow \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}=
kbps.mkv ${filename} \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.t=
xt <br>
<br>
vs: <br>
<br>
&nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=3D0 --target-bitrate=3D${rate} --kf-min-=
dist=3D3000 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3D3000 --cpu-used=3D0 --fps=3D=
${frame_rate}/1 --static-thresh=3D0 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=3D1 --drop-frame=3D0 --end-usa=
ge=3Dcbr --min-q=3D2 --max-q=3D56 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=3D100 --overshoot-pct=3D15 =
--buf-sz=3D1000 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=3D800 --buf-optimal-sz=3D10=
00 --max-intra-rate=3D1200 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=3D0 --drop-frame=3D0 --pass=
es=3D1 --good --noise-sensitivity=3D0 \
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=
=3Dvp8 \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}k=
bps.webm \ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps=
.txt <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Both have the same target bitrate and the same resolution, and neither gene=
rates periodic keyframes.<br>
<br>
Apart from that, I think they are comparable by virtue of being the paramet=
ers that were recommended for this test by people who like this particular =
codec implementation.<br>
<br>
Was there any specific parameter or parameter set you were wondering about?=
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Best regards<br>
Sergio<br>
<br>
El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi=F3:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing=
 VP8 to H.264. This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in t=
he previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made sugge=
stions as to how we could improve
 our methodology and encourage suggestions as to how we can make further im=
provements.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In these tests we run x264 with the &quot;veryslow&q=
uot; preset and VP8 with the &quot;good, speed 0&quot; setting in an attemp=
t to produce comparable results.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An overview of our results is available as follows:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_=
quality.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a hre=
f=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_spe=
ed.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">- A comparison of the aggregate time requ=
ired to decode all of the clips in the test:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://downloa=
ds.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">can either b=
e downloaded from:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmpr=
oject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">or checked out of our git/gerrit reposito=
ry:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">git clone <a href=3D"http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_code=
c_comparison.git">
http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The file README.txt, contained within, pr=
esents details of how to build and run the tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The compressed video files--the output fr=
om the quality tests--can also be downloaded:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">VP8</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">H</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">.<s=
pan style=3D"background:#FFFFCC">264</span>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://downloads.webmproject.o=
rg/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf=
_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Adrian Grange<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 02:13:40 +0200
From: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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El 05/04/2013 1:28, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) escribió:
>
> Realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important 
> for the actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that these 
> factors have nothing to do with the codec technology itself, since 
> they are purely encoder implementation optimizations. There is nothing 
> in the VP8 or H.264 standard that uniquely provides realtime/low 
> latency or constrained bitrate. Those are attributes of encoder 
> implementations which are not part of the standard.
>
> So the question was whether we care about evaluating codec technology 
> or specific implementations. If the former, then tests should be 
> staged in the same way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools. 
> If the latter, then tests should be staged using the target 
> implementations.
>
> I'm not aware of conferencing applications which use x264, because it 
> was designed and optimized for transcoding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not 
> conferencing. Most importantly, x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for 
> conferencing since it is for broadcast MPEG transport streams that 
> must be absolutely CBR to avoid M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it 
> will actually insert filler data instead of real frame data to hit the 
> CBR rate exactly. Looking at the results which show the worst H.264 
> bitrate (62% above VP8) in gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there 
> is almost as much filler data as real frame data, meaning the true 
> bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is reported in the 
> results. (See attached if it makes it through.)
>

I have been using x264 with very good results in my mcu implementation, 
the parameters I use are:

     params.rc.i_rc_method           = X264_RC_ABR;
     params.rc.i_bitrate                   = bitrate;
     params.rc.i_vbv_max_bitrate = bitrate;
     params.rc.i_vbv_buffer_size   = bitrate/fps;
     params.rc.f_vbv_buffer_init    = 0;
     params.rc.f_rate_tolerance    = 0.1;
     params.b_intra_refresh           = 1;

I have a smooth and constant bitrate near the target bitrate, which is 
something I still have not been able to do with VP8 encoder yet (if 
someone nows the trick, it will be very welcome!).

Best regards
Sergio

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 05/04/2013 1:28, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
      escribi&oacute;:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Realtime/low
            latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important for
            the actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that
            these factors have nothing to do with the codec technology
            itself, since they are purely encoder implementation
            optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 standard
            that uniquely provides realtime/low latency or constrained
            bitrate. Those are attributes of encoder implementations
            which are not part of the standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So
            the question was whether we care about evaluating codec
            technology or specific implementations. If the former, then
            tests should be staged in the same way codec experts
            evaluate codec technology/tools. If the latter, then tests
            should be staged using the target implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;m
            not aware of conferencing applications which use x264,
            because it was designed and optimized for transcoding (dvd
            rips to blu-ray) not conferencing. Most importantly, x264
            cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since it is for
            broadcast MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR
            to avoid M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it will
            actually insert filler data instead of real frame data to
            hit the CBR rate exactly. Looking at the results which show
            the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) in
            gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as
            much filler data as real frame data, meaning the true
            bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is reported
            in the results. (See attached if it makes it through.)</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I have been using x264 with very good results in my mcu
    implementation, the parameters I use are:<br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_rc_method&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = X264_RC_ABR;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_bitrate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = bitrate;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_vbv_max_bitrate = bitrate;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_vbv_buffer_size&nbsp;&nbsp; = bitrate/fps;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.f_vbv_buffer_init&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = 0;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.f_rate_tolerance&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = 0.1;<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.b_intra_refresh&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = 1;<br>
    <br>
    I have a smooth and constant bitrate near the target bitrate, which
    is something I still have not been able to do with VP8 encoder yet
    (if someone nows the trick, it will be very welcome!).<br>
    <br>
    Best regards<br>
    Sergio<br>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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On 04/05/2013 01:28 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote:
>
> Realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important 
> for the actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that these 
> factors have nothing to do with the codec technology itself, since 
> they are purely encoder implementation optimizations. There is nothing 
> in the VP8 or H.264 standard that uniquely provides realtime/low 
> latency or constrained bitrate. Those are attributes of encoder 
> implementations which are not part of the standard.
>

I'd challenge that assumption.
If one technology behaves much better under constrained bitrate and/or 
low latency than the other, that might just possibly be linked to the 
technology.

As an obvious example, consider B-frames; due to their basic "predict 
from the future" nature, they will incur a latency penalty if used.
A test that depends on B-frames will therefore be an invalid test for 
real-time operation.

What we can always be sure of is that when a certain quality is 
demonstrated under certain conditions, that quality is achievable under 
those conditions. We should be careful about drawing larger conclusions 
than that.

> So the question was whether we care about evaluating codec technology 
> or specific implementations. If the former, then tests should be 
> staged in the same way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools.
>

by "the same way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools", do you 
mean the way MPEG does it?

Having just started working in MPEG, with their procedures for quality 
evaluations .... I can't say I'm terribly impressed by the evaluation 
methods used. I'm also very unimpressed with the openness of the process.

> If the latter, then tests should be staged using the target 
> implementations.
>
> I'm not aware of conferencing applications which use x264, because it 
> was designed and optimized for transcoding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not 
> conferencing. Most importantly, x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for 
> conferencing since it is for broadcast MPEG transport streams that 
> must be absolutely CBR to avoid M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it 
> will actually insert filler data instead of real frame data to hit the 
> CBR rate exactly. Looking at the results which show the worst H.264 
> bitrate (62% above VP8) in gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there 
> is almost as much filler data as real frame data, meaning the true 
> bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is reported in the 
> results. (See attached if it makes it through.)
>
It made it through, but I can't interpret it much. Certainly sounds like 
CBR is a setting to avoid.

> While the results are bad, the methodology, effort and transparency 
> are very good (if we want to compare implementations not standards). I 
> can rerun without the bogus fillers and post the results next week, 
> unless someone else can do it faster. But as Thomas pointed out, the 
> technologies themselves are comparable as far as coding tools, so any 
> results which show significant differences are either suspect or 
> explained by differences in encoder implementations or settings not 
> the codec technology itself.
>

I've pushed (as my first contribution to the actual code; the tests 
themselves were done by other Googlers) some changes that will make it a 
little easier for new people who execute them to get predictable results 
from the tests we published.

Looking forward to more contributions!


> Mo
>
> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Leon Geyser
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM
> *To:* Thomas Davies (thdavies)
> *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
>
>     If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a
>     *technology* to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use
>     the best settings you have (ideally with a special full-on
>     non-real time implementation) and test against the JM reference
>     encoder. Ideally you would use the same or similar GOP structures,
>     number of references, prediction and QP hierarchies.
>
> I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time communication. What would it 
> benefit us if we test settings that won't be used or can't be used in 
> practice?
>
> The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency and at a 
> constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't archiving videos here :)
>
> A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could be 
> usefull to make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate too high at 
> certain moments.
> I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they stay 
> realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate.
>
> On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies <thdavies@cisco.com 
> <mailto:thdavies@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
> Harald,
>
> I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison you have 
> posted.
>
> 1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major difference between 
> the initial intra frame qualities. When I encode just one frame of 
> sequence gipsrecomotion using the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s 
> then the intra frame is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264.
>
> With video conferencing content, the quality of the initial I frame 
> has a big impact that can last for many seconds - certainly the length 
> of these clips. You can easily get gains by increasing the quality 
> difference between an I frame and subsequent frames.
>
> x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the bitrate 
> substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a different approach. 
> During this ramp up period the quality is very much worse. I can't 
> find a way to persuade x264 to behave differently.
>
> This is a good illustration of why including rate control in 
> comparisons is a bad idea.
>
> 2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it seems vpxenc is 
> using a quality hierarchy with a length of 8 ("hiercharchical-P") 
> where every 8th frame is about 4x bigger than the others. x264 has a 
> constant target per frame.
>
> Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can easily get you 
> 10-20% gain with a big separation like this, at a cost in latency. 
> Again I don't know how to make x264 do this, but the technique is 
> applicable to any codec and is used in the JM reference.
>
> 3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear not to be 
> ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I found that when 
> encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:
>
> - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB (vpxenc seems to 
> run single threaded by default)
> - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2) reduces the 
> load very substantially at very little loss (0.2dB or so).
>
> So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x faster than 
> vpxenc for this data point and had much better quality than before. 
> vpxenc is still better (about 1dB), but very possibly within the range 
> of hierarchical P coding improvements.
>
> Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs particularly well at 
> these high complexity settings, at least for video conferencing, no 
> doubt as other more practical settings have been targeted. x264 
> appears to have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have.
>
> 4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is combined luma 
> and chroma over all frames. It's relatively easy to improve chroma 
> PSNR at a small cost in bits, and usually it is best to ignore chroma 
> PSNR or (possibly) give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of 
> frame PSNRs is generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole 
> sequence, also. I would very much like separate component PSNRs in 
> tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.
>
> If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a *technology* to 
> h264 CBP, then I think the comparison should use the best settings you 
> have (ideally with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and 
> test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use the same 
> or similar GOP structures, number of references, prediction and QP 
> hierarchies.
>
> Comparing different real-time implementations of different codecs 
> trying to do high quality coding with different GOP structures and 
> using rate control with different strategies is just a waste of time. 
> The first two elements in the list above are alone worth a very 
> significant amount of bit rate.
>
> On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools would suggest 
> that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely "comparable" and the variation 
> between implementations of the same technology would be bigger than 
> the variation between the technologies. If we could agree that then a 
> lot of time could be saved.
>
> best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
> On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Could you explain how the encoding parametrization is comparable?
>
> x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate} --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \
>       --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps ${frame_rate} \
>       --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint infinite --preset 
> veryslow \
>       --input-res ${width}x${height} \
>       --tune psnr \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv ${filename} \
>       2> ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> vs:
>
>  ./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0 --target-bitrate=${rate} 
> --kf-min-dist=3000 \
>       --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0 --fps=${frame_rate}/1 
> --static-thresh=0 \
>       --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr --min-q=2 
> --max-q=56 \
>       --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15 --buf-sz=1000 \
>       --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000 --max-intra-rate=1200 \
>       --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1 --good 
> --noise-sensitivity=0 \
>       -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename} --codec=vp8 \
>       -o ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
> &>./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
>
> Best regards
> Sergio
>
> El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribió:
>
>     We have uploaded a new set of test results comparing VP8 to H.264.
>     This latest set contains fixes for some of the problems in the
>     previous set. We would like to extend our thanks to those who made
>     suggestions as to how we could improve our methodology and
>     encourage suggestions as to how we can make further improvements.
>
>     In these tests we run x264 with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with
>     the "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to produce comparable
>     results.
>
>     An overview of our results is available as follows:
>
>     - A Quality comparison (psnr):
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html
>
>     - An Encode Speed comparison:
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html
>
>     - A comparison of the aggregate time required to decode all of the
>     clips in the test:
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt
>
>     All of our test scripts can either be downloaded from:
>
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz
>
>     or checked out of our git/gerrit repository:
>
>     git clone http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git
>
>     The file README.txt, contained within, presents details of how to
>     build and run the tests.
>
>     The compressed video files--the output from the quality tests--can
>     also be downloaded:
>
>     VP8:
>
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos
>     <http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/>/index.html
>
>     H.264:
>
>     http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html
>
>     Adrian Grange
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     rtcweb mailing list
>
>     rtcweb@ietf.org  <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org  <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/05/2013 01:28 AM, Mo Zanaty
      (mzanaty) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Realtime/low
            latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important for
            the actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that
            these factors have nothing to do with the codec technology
            itself, since they are purely encoder implementation
            optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 standard
            that uniquely provides realtime/low latency or constrained
            bitrate. Those are attributes of encoder implementations
            which are not part of the standard.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'd challenge that assumption.<br>
    If one technology behaves much better under constrained bitrate
    and/or low latency than the other, that might just possibly be
    linked to the technology.<br>
    <br>
    As an obvious example, consider B-frames; due to their basic
    "predict from the future" nature, they will incur a latency penalty
    if used.<br>
    A test that depends on B-frames will therefore be an invalid test
    for real-time operation.<br>
    <br>
    What we can always be sure of is that when a certain quality is
    demonstrated under certain conditions, that quality is achievable
    under those conditions. We should be careful about drawing larger
    conclusions than that.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So
            the question was whether we care about evaluating codec
            technology or specific implementations. If the former, then
            tests should be staged in the same way codec experts
            evaluate codec technology/tools. </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    by "the same way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools", do
    you mean the way MPEG does it?<br>
    <br>
    Having just started working in MPEG, with their procedures for
    quality evaluations .... I can't say I'm terribly impressed by the
    evaluation methods used. I'm also very unimpressed with the openness
    of the process.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If
            the latter, then tests should be staged using the target
            implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;m
            not aware of conferencing applications which use x264,
            because it was designed and optimized for transcoding (dvd
            rips to blu-ray) not conferencing. Most importantly, x264
            cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since it is for
            broadcast MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR
            to avoid M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it will
            actually insert filler data instead of real frame data to
            hit the CBR rate exactly. Looking at the results which show
            the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) in
            gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as
            much filler data as real frame data, meaning the true
            bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is reported
            in the results. (See attached if it makes it through.)</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    It made it through, but I can't interpret it much. Certainly sounds
    like CBR is a setting to avoid.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">While
            the results are bad, the methodology, effort and
            transparency are very good (if we want to compare
            implementations not standards). I can rerun without the
            bogus fillers and post the results next week, unless someone
            else can do it faster. But as Thomas pointed out, the
            technologies themselves are comparable as far as coding
            tools, so any results which show significant differences are
            either suspect or explained by differences in encoder
            implementations or settings not the codec technology itself.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I've pushed (as my first contribution to the actual code; the tests
    themselves were done by other Googlers) some changes that will make
    it a little easier for new people who execute them to get
    predictable results from the tests we published.<br>
    <br>
    Looking forward to more contributions!<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3879D71E758A7E4AA99A35DD8D41D3D90F69B243@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Leon Geyser<br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 PM<br>
            <b>To:</b> Thomas Davies (thdavies)<br>
            <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
          1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
          6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal">If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is
            superior as a *technology* to h264 CBP, then I think the
            comparison should use the best settings you have (ideally
            with a special full-on non-real time implementation) and
            test against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use
            the same or similar GOP structures, number of references,
            prediction and QP hierarchies.
            <o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I thought WebRTC was meant for real-time
            communication. What would it benefit us if we test settings
            that won't be used or can't be used in practice?<br>
            <br>
            The tests need to test the encoders at realtime/low latency
            and at a constrained bitrate mode like CBR. We aren't
            archiving videos here :)<br>
            <br>
            A graph that shows the bitrate over time for each clip could
            be usefull to make sure that no encoder spikes the bitrate
            too high at certain moments.<br>
            I welcome changes to the encoder settings as long as they
            stay realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate.<br>
            &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 4 April 2013 17:05, Thomas Davies &lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:thdavies@cisco.com"
              target="_blank">thdavies@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Harald,<br>
              <br>
              I think there are quite a few problems with the comparison
              you have posted.<br>
              <br>
              1. Looking at the sequences there is a very major
              difference between the initial intra frame qualities. When
              I encode just one frame of sequence gipsrecomotion using
              the parameters in the script at 1Mb/s then the intra frame
              is 3 times larger with vp8 than with x264. <br>
              <br>
              With video conferencing content, the quality of the
              initial I frame has a big impact that can last for many
              seconds - certainly the length of these clips. You can
              easily get gains by increasing the quality difference
              between an I frame and subsequent frames.
              <br>
              <br>
              x264 seems to have a policy of initially undershooting the
              bitrate substantially and ramping up, whereas vpxenc has a
              different approach. During this ramp up period the quality
              is very much worse. I can't find a way to persuade x264 to
              behave differently.
              <br>
              <br>
              This is a good illustration of why including rate control
              in comparisons is a bad idea.
              <br>
              <br>
              2. Likewise, looking at the individual frame sizes, it
              seems vpxenc is using a quality hierarchy with a length of
              8 ("hiercharchical-P") where every 8th frame is about 4x
              bigger than the others. x264 has a constant target per
              frame.<br>
              <br>
              Hierarchical P frames are a really good idea, and can
              easily get you 10-20% gain with a big separation like
              this, at a cost in latency. Again I don't know how to make
              x264 do this, but the technique is applicable to any codec
              and is used in the JM reference.<br>
              <br>
              3. The x264 settings are a bit of a black art, but appear
              not to be ideal after all. I am definitely no expert but I
              found that when encoding gipsrecomotion at 1Mb/s:<br>
              <br>
              - setting --threads 1 improves quality by a full 1dB
              (vpxenc seems to run single threaded by default)<br>
              - reducing the number of references from 3 to 2 (--ref 2)
              reduces the load very substantially at very little loss
              (0.2dB or so).<br>
              <br>
              So with --threads 1 --ref 2, I found x264 ran more than 2x
              faster than vpxenc for this data point and had much better
              quality than before. vpxenc is still better (about 1dB),
              but very possibly within the range of hierarchical P
              coding improvements.<br>
              &nbsp; <br>
              Incidentally, I don't think that x264 performs
              particularly well at these high complexity settings, at
              least for video conferencing, no doubt as other more
              practical settings have been targeted. x264 appears to
              have a quality ceiling that the JM does not have.
              <br>
              <br>
              4. Another (smaller) issue is that the reported PSNR is
              combined luma and chroma over all frames. It's relatively
              easy to improve chroma PSNR at a small cost in bits, and
              usually it is best to ignore chroma PSNR or (possibly)
              give it a small weight. The arithmetic mean of frame PSNRs
              is generally used rather than the PSNR of the whole
              sequence, also. I would very much like separate component
              PSNRs in tests. The figures I quote above are luma PSNR.<br>
              <br>
              If the purpose is to show whether vp8 is superior as a
              *technology* to h264 CBP, then I think the comparison
              should use the best settings you have (ideally with a
              special full-on non-real time implementation) and test
              against the JM reference encoder. Ideally you would use
              the same or similar GOP structures, number of references,
              prediction and QP hierarchies.
              <br>
              <br>
              Comparing different real-time implementations of different
              codecs trying to do high quality coding with different GOP
              structures and using rate control with different
              strategies is just a waste of time. The first two elements
              in the list above are alone worth a very significant
              amount of bit rate. <br>
              <br>
              On the other hand, a quick perusal of the actual tools
              would suggest that vp8 and h264 CBP are likely
              "comparable" and the variation between implementations of
              the same technology would be bigger than the variation
              between the technologies. If we could agree that then a
              lot of time could be saved.<br>
              <br>
              best regards<span style="color:#888888"><br>
                <br>
                <span class="hoenzb">Thomas </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  On 04/04/13 09:53, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Adrian,<br>
                    <br>
                    Could you explain how the encoding parametrization
                    is comparable?<br>
                    <br>
                    x264 --nal-hrd cbr --vbv-maxrate ${rate}
                    --vbv-bufsize ${rate} \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --vbv-init 0.8 --bitrate ${rate} --fps
                    ${frame_rate} \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --profile baseline --no-scenecut --keyint
                    infinite --preset veryslow \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --input-res ${width}x${height} \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --tune psnr \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o
                    ./encoded_clips/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.mkv
                    ${filename} \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; ./logs/h264/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    vs: <br>
                    <br>
                    &nbsp;./bin/vpxenc --lag-in-frames=0
                    --target-bitrate=${rate} --kf-min-dist=3000 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --kf-max-dist=3000 --cpu-used=0
                    --fps=${frame_rate}/1 --static-thresh=0 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --token-parts=1 --drop-frame=0 --end-usage=cbr
                    --min-q=2 --max-q=56 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --undershoot-pct=100 --overshoot-pct=15
                    --buf-sz=1000 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --buf-initial-sz=800 --buf-optimal-sz=1000
                    --max-intra-rate=1200 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --resize-allowed=0 --drop-frame=0 --passes=1
                    --good --noise-sensitivity=0 \
                    <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -w ${width} -h ${height} ${filename}
                    --codec=vp8 \ <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -o
                    ./encoded_clips/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.webm \
                    <br>
                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                    &amp;&gt;./logs/vp8/${clip_stem}_${rate}kbps.txt <br>
                    <br>
                    Best regards<br>
                    Sergio<br>
                    <br>
                    El 03/04/2013 18:20, Adrian Grange escribi&oacute;:<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">We have uploaded a new set of
                      test results comparing VP8 to H.264. This latest
                      set contains fixes for some of the problems in the
                      previous set. We would like to extend our thanks
                      to those who made suggestions as to how we could
                      improve our methodology and encourage suggestions
                      as to how we can make further improvements.
                      <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">In these tests we run x264
                          with the "veryslow" preset and VP8 with the
                          "good, speed 0" setting in an attempt to
                          produce comparable results.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">An overview of our results
                          is available as follows:<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-
                              A Quality comparison (psnr):&nbsp;<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html"
                                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_quality.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-
                              An Encode Speed comparison:&nbsp;<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html"
                                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264_speed.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-
                              A comparison of the aggregate time
                              required to decode all of the clips in the
                              test:&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt"
                                target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8vsh264-decodetime.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">All of our test scripts&nbsp;<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">can
                            either be downloaded from:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz"
                                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_vs_h264.tar.xz</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">or
                              checked out of our git/gerrit repository:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                              style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">git
                              clone <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git"
                                target="_blank">
http://git.chromium.org/webm/vpx_codec_comparison.git</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The
                              file README.txt, contained within,
                              presents details of how to build and run
                              the tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The
                              compressed video files--the output from
                              the quality tests--can also be downloaded:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">VP8</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos/"
                                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/vp8_videos</a>/index.html<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#FFFFCC">H</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">.<span
                                  style="background:#FFFFCC">264</span>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html"
                                  target="_blank">http://downloads.webmproject.org/ietf_tests/h264_videos/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Adrian
                                Grange<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
                  <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target="_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
                <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>rtcweb mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target="_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            rtcweb mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb"
              target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil  Fri Apr  5 07:20:32 2013
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From: "Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)" <radhika.r.roy.civ@mail.mil>
To: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>, Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com>, "Thomas Davies (thdavies)" <thdavies@cisco.com>, "Adrian Grange" <agrange@google.com>, "Cullen Jennings	(fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Harald Alvestrand (harald@alvestrand.no)" <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Inline [RRR]

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:29 PM
To: Leon Geyser; Thomas Davies (thdavies); Adrian Grange; Cullen Jennings
(fluffy); Harald Alvestrand (harald@alvestrand.no)
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded

Realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important for the
actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that these factors have
nothing to do with the codec technology itself, since they are purely
encoder implementation optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264
standard that uniquely provides realtime/low latency or constrained bitrate.
Those are attributes of encoder implementations which are not part of the
standard.

[RRR] Yes, it is dependent on the codec technology how the encoding and
decoding technology conceals the BER and hence affect the video quality. The
MOS subjective or objective coding performances video quality is also
dependent on the end-to-end latency for two-way or multipoint conversation
vs. one-way video streaming.

[RRR] The key is to capture all the parameters of video coding experimental
test environments under certain circumstances starting from back-to-back
codec to across the wide area network including wireline and wrieless. Let
us speak on these specific test environments including applications and the
corresponding video quality (subjective and/or objective). 

[RRR] Before generalization of the video performances from the specific test
results, let us understand what test results we have got for that specific
test environments.


 




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
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From kieran618@googlemail.com  Fri Apr  5 08:01:47 2013
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From: Kieran Kunhya <kieran618@googlemail.com>
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149c37caa3aeb04d99e5d29
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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--089e0149c37caa3aeb04d99e5d29
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Any of the x264 developers would have been happy to help you choose
appropriate settings. I made this suggestion to Harald since major codec
comparisons (e.g MSU, EBU) have communicated extensively with all codec
vendors involved. This did not happen and again inappropriate settings have
been used like filler bytes, 1 second VBV, large encoder latency (default
settings) etc.

Also it is complete nonsense to say x264 is not designed for low latency cf
- http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/249
I have deployed x264 for low-latency broadcast contribution beating
professional encoders in latency and quality and others use it extensively
for videoconferencing/cloud-gaming etc.

I would politely ask again if the people running codec comparisons ask on
the x264-devel mailing list or on #x264dev on Freenode IRC.

--089e0149c37caa3aeb04d99e5d29
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Any of the x264 developers would have been =
happy to help you choose appropriate settings. I made this suggestion to Ha=
rald since major codec comparisons (e.g MSU, EBU) have communicated extensi=
vely with all codec vendors involved. This did not happen and again inappro=
priate settings have been used like filler bytes, 1 second VBV, large encod=
er latency (default settings) etc.</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Also it is complete nonsense to say x264 is not=
 designed for low latency cf -=A0</span><a href=3D"http://x264dev.multimedi=
a.cx/archives/249" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(40,98,197);outline:=
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">http://x264dev.m=
ultimedia.cx/archives/249</a><br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12px">I have deployed x264 for low-latency broadcast contribution =
beating professional encoders in latency and quality and others use it exte=
nsively for videoconferencing/cloud-gaming etc.</span><br style=3D"color:rg=
b(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:12px">I would politely ask again if the people runnin=
g codec comparisons ask on the x264-devel mailing list or on #x264dev on Fr=
eenode IRC.</span><br>
</div>

--089e0149c37caa3aeb04d99e5d29--

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From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:24:29 +0000
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Check your output x264 streams for fillers. If you see fillers (NAL unit ty=
pe 12), you are wasting bandwidth. In the example below, almost half the bi=
trate was wasted on fillers and other stuff (SEI) that are not real frames.=
 Over RTP, you would waste even more than half the link bandwidth since the=
 small SEIs would incur the full overhead of separate RTP packets. (40 byte=
s of RTP/UDP/IP overhead for 10 bytes of SEI.)

Mo


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Sergio Garcia Murillo

El 05/04/2013 1:28, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) escribi=F3:
Realtime/low latency and constrained bitrate are obviously important for th=
e actual implementation used. Thomas was pointing out that these factors ha=
ve nothing to do with the codec technology itself, since they are purely en=
coder implementation optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 st=
andard that uniquely provides realtime/low latency or constrained bitrate. =
Those are attributes of encoder implementations which are not part of the s=
tandard.

So the question was whether we care about evaluating codec technology or sp=
ecific implementations. If the former, then tests should be staged in the s=
ame way codec experts evaluate codec technology/tools. If the latter, then =
tests should be staged using the target implementations.

I'm not aware of conferencing applications which use x264, because it was d=
esigned and optimized for transcoding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not conferencin=
g. Most importantly, x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since =
it is for broadcast MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR to a=
void M2TS-mux overflow or underflow, and it will actually insert filler dat=
a instead of real frame data to hit the CBR rate exactly. Looking at the re=
sults which show the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) in gipsrecstat_128=
0_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as much filler data as real frame da=
ta, meaning the true bitrate of real frame data is almost half what is repo=
rted in the results. (See attached if it makes it through.)

I have been using x264 with very good results in my mcu implementation, the=
 parameters I use are:

    params.rc.i_rc_method           =3D X264_RC_ABR;
    params.rc.i_bitrate                   =3D bitrate;
    params.rc.i_vbv_max_bitrate =3D bitrate;
    params.rc.i_vbv_buffer_size   =3D bitrate/fps;
    params.rc.f_vbv_buffer_init    =3D 0;
    params.rc.f_rate_tolerance    =3D 0.1;
    params.b_intra_refresh           =3D 1;

I have a smooth and constant bitrate near the target bitrate, which is some=
thing I still have not been able to do with VP8 encoder yet (if someone now=
s the trick, it will be very welcome!).

Best regards
Sergio

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Check your output x264=
 streams for fillers. If you see fillers (NAL unit type 12), you are wastin=
g bandwidth. In the example below, almost half the bitrate
 was wasted on fillers and other stuff (SEI) that are not real frames. Over=
 RTP, you would waste even more than half the link bandwidth since the smal=
l SEIs would incur the full overhead of separate RTP packets. (40 bytes of =
RTP/UDP/IP overhead for 10 bytes
 of SEI.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Mo<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ie=
tf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sergio Garcia Murillo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">El 05/04/2013 1:28, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) escribi=F3:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Realtime/low latency and constrained bi=
trate are obviously important for the actual implementation used. Thomas wa=
s pointing out that these factors have nothing to do with
 the codec technology itself, since they are purely encoder implementation =
optimizations. There is nothing in the VP8 or H.264 standard that uniquely =
provides realtime/low latency or constrained bitrate. Those are attributes =
of encoder implementations which
 are not part of the standard.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So the question was whether we care abo=
ut evaluating codec technology or specific implementations. If the former, =
then tests should be staged in the same way codec experts
 evaluate codec technology/tools. If the latter, then tests should be stage=
d using the target implementations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;m not aware of conferencing app=
lications which use x264, because it was designed and optimized for transco=
ding (dvd rips to blu-ray) not conferencing. Most importantly,
 x264 cbr mode is inappropriate for conferencing since it is for broadcast =
MPEG transport streams that must be absolutely CBR to avoid M2TS-mux overfl=
ow or underflow, and it will actually insert filler data instead of real fr=
ame data to hit the CBR rate exactly.
 Looking at the results which show the worst H.264 bitrate (62% above VP8) =
in gipsrecstat_1280_720_50_1485kbps.mkv, there is almost as much filler dat=
a as real frame data, meaning the true bitrate of real frame data is almost=
 half what is reported in the results.
 (See attached if it makes it through.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I have been using x264 with very good results in my mcu implementation, the=
 parameters I use are:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_rc_method&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D X264_RC_ABR;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_bitrate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D=
 bitrate;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_vbv_max_bitrate =3D bitrate;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.i_vbv_buffer_size&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D bitrate/fps;=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.f_vbv_buffer_init&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D 0;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.rc.f_rate_tolerance&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D 0.1;<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; params.b_intra_refresh&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D 1;<br>
<br>
I have a smooth and constant bitrate near the target bitrate, which is some=
thing I still have not been able to do with VP8 encoder yet (if someone now=
s the trick, it will be very welcome!).<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Sergio<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Any of the x264 developers would have been happy to help you choose
appropriate settings. I made this suggestion to Harald since major codec
comparisons (e.g MSU, EBU) have communicated extensively with all codec
vendors. This did not happen and again inappropriate settings have been
used like filler bytes, 1 second VBV, large encoder latency (default
settings) etc.

Also it is complete nonsense to say x264 is not designed for low latency cf
- http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/249
I have deployed x264 for low-latency broadcast contribution beating
professional encoders in latency and quality and others use it extensively
for videoconferencing/cloud-gaming etc.

I would politely ask again if the people running codec comparisons ask on
the x264-devel mailing list or on #x264dev on Freenode IRC.

Kieran Kunhya

--089e0149c37c97f78304d993710e
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Any of the x264 developers would have been =
happy to help you choose appropriate settings. I made this suggestion to Ha=
rald since major codec comparisons (e.g MSU, EBU) have communicated extensi=
vely with all codec vendors. This did not happen and again inappropriate se=
ttings have been used like filler bytes, 1 second VBV, large encoder latenc=
y (default settings) etc.</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Also it is complete nonsense to say x264 is not=
 designed for low latency cf -=A0</span><a href=3D"http://x264dev.multimedi=
a.cx/archives/249" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(40,98,197);outline:=
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">http://x264dev.m=
ultimedia.cx/archives/249</a><br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12px">I have deployed x264 for low-latency broadcast contribution =
beating professional encoders in latency and quality and others use it exte=
nsively for videoconferencing/cloud-gaming etc.</span><br style=3D"color:rg=
b(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:12px">I would politely ask again if the people runnin=
g codec comparisons ask on the x264-devel mailing list or on #x264dev on Fr=
eenode IRC.</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<br style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Kieran Kunhya</span><br></div>

--089e0149c37c97f78304d993710e--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote:
>
> Check your output x264 streams for fillers. If you see fillers (NAL 
> unit type 12), you are wasting bandwidth. In the example below, almost 
> half the bitrate was wasted on fillers and other stuff (SEI) that are 
> not real frames. Over RTP, you would waste even more than half the 
> link bandwidth since the small SEIs would incur the full overhead of 
> separate RTP packets. (40 bytes of RTP/UDP/IP overhead for 10 bytes of 
> SEI.)
>

Plus SRTP authentication tag (default is 10 bytes)

These are better tests than the ones presented at IETF86, though they 
aren't perfect either of course.

So I'll note that while there may be differences (in favor of either) or 
specific implementation weaknesses (solvable), I don't think there's a 
case for saying either H.264 or VP8 are technically insufficient to be 
an MTI, and either would do to avoid negotiation failure technically.  I 
do consider h.261 to be insufficient, as both the quality level/bitrate 
and the constrained resolutions would make it unacceptable to use even 
if it avoided negotiation failure. These opinions were echoed by 
multiple people in the room (and at previous IETFs).

I think the questions on MTI all come down to non-technical issues.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] New VP8 vs H.264 tests uploaded
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--14dae9d682983c4cfd04d9a13cd2
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H.261 isn't *that* bad. It sure beats Motion JPEG snd ASCII art :)

On 5 April 2013 19:43, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:

> On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote:
>
>>
>> Check your output x264 streams for fillers. If you see fillers (NAL unit
>> type 12), you are wasting bandwidth. In the example below, almost half the
>> bitrate was wasted on fillers and other stuff (SEI) that are not real
>> frames. Over RTP, you would waste even more than half the link bandwidth
>> since the small SEIs would incur the full overhead of separate RTP packets.
>> (40 bytes of RTP/UDP/IP overhead for 10 bytes of SEI.)
>>
>>
> Plus SRTP authentication tag (default is 10 bytes)
>
> These are better tests than the ones presented at IETF86, though they
> aren't perfect either of course.
>
> So I'll note that while there may be differences (in favor of either) or
> specific implementation weaknesses (solvable), I don't think there's a case
> for saying either H.264 or VP8 are technically insufficient to be an MTI,
> and either would do to avoid negotiation failure technically.  I do
> consider h.261 to be insufficient, as both the quality level/bitrate and
> the constrained resolutions would make it unacceptable to use even if it
> avoided negotiation failure. These opinions were echoed by multiple people
> in the room (and at previous IETFs).
>
> I think the questions on MTI all come down to non-technical issues.
>
> --
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>
>

--14dae9d682983c4cfd04d9a13cd2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

H.261 isn&#39;t *that* bad. It sure beats Motion JPEG snd ASCII art :)<br><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 April 2013 19:43, Randell Jesup <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org" target=3D"_blank">r=
andell-ietf@jesup.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, Mo Z=
anaty (mzanaty) wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Check your output x264 streams for fillers. If you see fillers (NAL unit ty=
pe 12), you are wasting bandwidth. In the example below, almost half the bi=
trate was wasted on fillers and other stuff (SEI) that are not real frames.=
 Over RTP, you would waste even more than half the link bandwidth since the=
 small SEIs would incur the full overhead of separate RTP packets. (40 byte=
s of RTP/UDP/IP overhead for 10 bytes of SEI.)<br>

<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Plus SRTP authentication tag (default is 10 bytes)<br>
<br>
These are better tests than the ones presented at IETF86, though they aren&=
#39;t perfect either of course.<br>
<br>
So I&#39;ll note that while there may be differences (in favor of either) o=
r specific implementation weaknesses (solvable), I don&#39;t think there&#3=
9;s a case for saying either H.264 or VP8 are technically insufficient to b=
e an MTI, and either would do to avoid negotiation failure technically. =A0=
I do consider h.261 to be insufficient, as both the quality level/bitrate a=
nd the constrained resolutions would make it unacceptable to use even if it=
 avoided negotiation failure. These opinions were echoed by multiple people=
 in the room (and at previous IETFs).<br>

<br>
I think the questions on MTI all come down to non-technical issues.<span cl=
ass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Randell Jesup<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org" target=3D"_blank">randell-ietf@je=
sup.org</a></font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--14dae9d682983c4cfd04d9a13cd2--

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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 03:35:38 +0800
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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Time to start the competition for the mandatory to implement 
smellovision codec.

On 4/4/13 12:38 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:
> What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision?  Is there
> a patent pool here?
>
> Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use case.
>
> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 AM
> *To:* Olle E. Johansson
> *Cc:* Cullen Jennings (fluffy); rtcweb@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
>
> I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors
> attached to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and
> hence help solve the crime -  world peace
>
> On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:
>
>
>     2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)"
>     <fluffy@cisco.com <javascript:;>>:
>
>      >
>      > I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and
>     wanted to point out that Googles new search,
>      >
>      > https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
>      >
>      > Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other
>     than voice and video.
>      >
>     I do remember Patrik Fältström's first presentation of Internet
>     Media Types - MIME.
>     He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.
>
>     Time to fix that, obviously.
>
>     /O
>     _______________________________________________
>     rtcweb mailing list
>     rtcweb@ietf.org <javascript:;>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>


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To: rtcweb@ietf.org
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Subject: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings
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--001a11c366d00b159604d9a2ef46
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Howdy,

We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on
the list; thanks to all who reviewed.  If you have not yet done so, there
is still time to update, so please take a look.

thanks,

Ted Hardie, for the chairs.

--001a11c366d00b159604d9a2ef46
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Howdy,<br><br>We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we =
received on the list; thanks to all who reviewed.=A0 If you have not yet do=
ne so, there is still time to update, so please take a look.<br><br>thanks,=
<br>
<br>Ted Hardie, for the chairs.<br>

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From suhasietf@gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 20:53:57 2013
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References: <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB113446D3F@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <8DFF2C41-FA67-4BB6-B4EB-784CEC2D0DFE@edvina.net> <CAMRcRGSVKpk_8u=g2W3dxhV6LinJDvO3AZgnnSn+koRLQrf18g@mail.gmail.com> <002b01ce3089$a36a0450$ea3e0cf0$@shockey.us> <515F278A.5070102@alum.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:53:54 -0700
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From: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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Do we need an encoder and decoder  .. I think JSON encapsulated binary
representation of smell is just enough....


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote=
:

> Time to start the competition for the mandatory to implement smellovision
> codec.
>
>
> On 4/4/13 12:38 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:
>
>> What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision?  Is there
>> a patent pool here?
>>
>> Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use
>> case.
>>
>> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.**org<rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org>]
>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 AM
>> *To:* Olle E. Johansson
>> *Cc:* Cullen Jennings (fluffy); rtcweb@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
>>
>>
>> I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors
>> attached to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and
>> hence help solve the crime -  world peace
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:
>>
>>
>>     2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)"
>>     <fluffy@cisco.com <javascript:;>>:
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and
>>     wanted to point out that Googles new search,
>>      >
>>      > https://www.google.com/intl/**en/landing/nose/<https://www.google=
.com/intl/en/landing/nose/>
>>      >
>>      > Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other
>>     than voice and video.
>>      >
>>     I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m's first presentation of Internet
>>     Media Types - MIME.
>>     He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.
>>
>>     Time to fix that, obviously.
>>
>>     /O
>>     ______________________________**_________________
>>     rtcweb mailing list
>>     rtcweb@ietf.org <javascript:;>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/rtcweb>
>>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/rtcweb>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Do we need an encoder and decoder =A0.. I think JSON encap=
sulated binary representation of smell is just enough....</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at =
12:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pkyzivat@alu=
m.mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Time to start the competition for the mandat=
ory to implement smellovision codec.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
On 4/4/13 12:38 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision? =A0Is there<=
br>
a patent pool here?<br>
<br>
Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use case.=
<br>
<br></div>
*From:*<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.<u></u>org</a>] *On<br>
Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar<br>
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 AM<br>
*To:* Olle E. Johansson<br>
*Cc:* Cullen Jennings (fluffy); <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
*Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors<br>
attached to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and<br>
hence help solve the crime - =A0world peace<br>
<br>
On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev &quot;Cullen Jennings (fluffy)&quot;<br>=
</div>
=A0 =A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@ci=
sco.com</a> &lt;javascript:;&gt;&gt;:<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt; I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and=
<br>
=A0 =A0 wanted to point out that Googles new search,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/<u></u>en/landing/nose/</a><br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt; Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types oth=
er<br>
=A0 =A0 than voice and video.<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&gt;<br>
=A0 =A0 I do remember Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m&#39;s first presentation of Inte=
rnet<br>
=A0 =A0 Media Types - MIME.<br>
=A0 =A0 He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.=
<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 Time to fix that, obviously.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 /O<br>
=A0 =A0 ______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
=A0 =A0 rtcweb mailing list<br></div>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.or=
g</a> &lt;javascript:;&gt;<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><div class=
=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br>
</div></blockquote><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Fri Apr  5 21:06:41 2013
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:06:36 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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References: <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB113446D3F@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <8DFF2C41-FA67-4BB6-B4EB-784CEC2D0DFE@edvina.net> <CAMRcRGSVKpk_8u=g2W3dxhV6LinJDvO3AZgnnSn+koRLQrf18g@mail.gmail.com> <002b01ce3089$a36a0450$ea3e0cf0$@shockey.us> <515F278A.5070102@alum.mit.edu> <CAMRcRGSOg7wvhUfis+VdYbpU=F9cpG+vwgWBRMvPo4rcrGSNjw@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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Clearly the IETF community lacks the expertise to judge the quality of
olfactory codecs. Tests of perceived fidelity ought to be left up to the
experts, i.e., dogs. This would give new meaning to MUSH[ra] testing.

On 4/5/13 9:53 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:
> Do we need an encoder and decoder  .. I think JSON encapsulated binary
> representation of smell is just enough....
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Time to start the competition for the mandatory to implement smellovision
>> codec.
>>
>>
>> On 4/4/13 12:38 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:
>>
>>> What are the Intellectual Property Issues with smell-0-vision?  Is there
>>> a patent pool here?
>>>
>>> Obviously you need to find out that first before you can define a use
>>> case.
>>>
>>> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.**org<rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>]
>>> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:40 AM
>>> *To:* Olle E. Johansson
>>> *Cc:* Cullen Jennings (fluffy); rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
>>>
>>>
>>> I think such an application can be embedded in the rtcweb-sensors
>>> attached to the sniff dogs for real-time big data analysis of smell and
>>> hence help solve the crime -  world peace
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Olle E. Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     2 apr 2013 kl. 20:37 skrev "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)"
>>>     <fluffy@cisco.com <javascript:;>>:
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > I beilve everything I read on the web, even on April 1, and
>>>     wanted to point out that Googles new search,
>>>      >
>>>      > https://www.google.com/intl/**en/landing/nose/<https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/>
>>>      >
>>>      > Is going to be critical that webrtc support media types other
>>>     than voice and video.
>>>      >
>>>     I do remember Patrik FÃ¤ltstrÃ¶m's first presentation of Internet
>>>     Media Types - MIME.
>>>     He said that they had attachment types for everything except smell.
>>>
>>>     Time to fix that, obviously.
>>>
>>>     /O
>>>     ______________________________**_________________
>>>     rtcweb mailing list
>>>     rtcweb@ietf.org <javascript:;>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>
>>>
>>>
>>>

From ron@debian.org  Sat Apr  6 05:56:34 2013
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From: Ron <ron@debian.org>
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References: <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB113446D3F@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <8DFF2C41-FA67-4BB6-B4EB-784CEC2D0DFE@edvina.net> <CAMRcRGSVKpk_8u=g2W3dxhV6LinJDvO3AZgnnSn+koRLQrf18g@mail.gmail.com> <002b01ce3089$a36a0450$ea3e0cf0$@shockey.us> <515F278A.5070102@alum.mit.edu> <CAMRcRGSOg7wvhUfis+VdYbpU=F9cpG+vwgWBRMvPo4rcrGSNjw@mail.gmail.com> <515F9F4C.8000604@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use case for smellovision
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On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 10:06:36PM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Clearly the IETF community lacks the expertise to judge the quality of
> olfactory codecs. Tests of perceived fidelity ought to be left up to the
> experts, i.e., dogs. This would give new meaning to MUSH[ra] testing.

Apparently, cats, in general, actually have a more powerful sense of smell
than most dogs do ...  Which may firmly place this back in the domain of
interest of the Internet Community :>   Stay tuned for Smell-you tube.

However unless there is an IETF VINTNER working group that I'm unaware of,
we are way behind on this.  Encoders at least have already been commercially
available for quite some time now.  Though decoders you may still have to
scratch to operate ...

 http://www.csiro.au/en/Outcomes/Food-and-Agriculture/Determining-the-quality-of-wine-grapes-from-flavour-and-aroma-analysis.aspx
 http://www.csiro.au/en/Outcomes/Food-and-Agriculture/Cybernose_FFF_Overview.aspx


 Cybernose is a registered trademark of CSIRO,
 Ron



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From: Gaelle Martin-Cocher <gmartincocher@blackberry.com>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:54:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings
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Dear all,

Some corrections made by Magnus and sent to the list on April 2nd were lost;=
 page 3 the first changes under the VP8 IPR presentation should read:
VP8 IPR: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.=
pdf>://<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>ww=
w<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>.<http:/=
/www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>ietf<http://www.=
ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>.<http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>org<http://www.ietf.org/proce=
edings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/8=
6/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>/86/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/s=
lides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slide=
s-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-8=
6-rtcweb-10.pdf>-86-<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtc=
web-10.pdf>rtcweb<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb=
-10.pdf>-10.<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.p=
df>pdf<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
Serge Lachapelle presenting

Gaelle reiterated that more details are needed on the recent announcement an=
d noted that there are more patent holders for H.264 in the ITU-T database t=
hat are not part of MPEG-LA.  She asked if the IETF could send letters to so=
licit information from these IPR-holders.


Also, please see below some corrections/clarifications:
In the same section:
The MPEG-LA pool is a subset.  She re-iterated her view that in light of the=
 answers provided by the area directors, the IETF is not the place for clari=
fying this.

In the section:
Mandatory to Implement Video Codec discussion
VP8 Technical: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcw=
eb-9.pdf>://<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pd=
f>www<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>.<htt=
p://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>ietf<http://ww=
w.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>.<http://www.ietf.or=
g/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>org<http://www.ietf.org/proce=
edings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86=
/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/8=
6/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>/86/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/s=
lides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-=
rtcweb-9.pdf>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcw=
eb-9.pdf>-86-<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.p=
df>rtcweb<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>-=
9.<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>pdf<http=
://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
Harald Alvestrand presenting
....
Gaelle then spoke, saying that in light of the inaccuracy of the tests and r=
elated data the venue is wrong, that  MPEG is the right place to perform tho=
se tests and IETF should rely on MPEG results before making a decision.  She=
 wants to be sure that the tests are accurate, and that the test set and met=
hodology used in IETF are problematic.

In the last section:
It was clearly indicated that additional questions should not be the one tha=
t were already asked during the meeting or sent on the reflector. (Some of t=
hese are still pending answers).

Sense of the room query: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slid=
es-86-rtcweb-14.pd>://<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-r=
tcweb-14.pd>www<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-1=
4.pd>.<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>ietf=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>.<http://w=
ww.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>org<http://www.ietf=
.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>/<http://www.ietf.org/proc=
eedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/pro=
ceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>/86/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/8=
6/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/=
slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>slides<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slid=
es-86-rtcweb-14.pd>-86-<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-=
rtcweb-14.pd>rtcweb<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcw=
eb-14.pd>-14.<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.=
pd>pd<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>f
Robert Sparks (as a favor to the chairs)

The questions to be asked were put on the slides.  If you can't answer these=
 question, think about what you really need.  Come articulate at the mic aft=
er the questions, issues or questions that have not already being posted on=
 the reflector or that have not been raised during the meeting.

Thank you
Sincerely,
Ga=EBlle


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Ted Hardie
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 4:29 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings

Howdy,

We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on the=
 list; thanks to all who reviewed.  If you have not yet done so, there is st=
ill time to update, so please take a look.

thanks,

Ted Hardie, for the chairs.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Some corrections made by Ma=
gnus and sent to the list on April 2<sup>nd</sup> were lost; page 3 the firs=
t changes under the VP8 IPR presentation should read:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV">VP8 IPR: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf">
<span style=3D"color:#1155CC">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC"=
>://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-8=
6-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">www</span></a><a href=3D"http=
://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=
=3D"color:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86=
/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">ietf</span></=
a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.p=
df"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:#1155CC">org</span></a></span><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proce=
edings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/</s=
pan></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcwe=
b-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">proceedings</span></a><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=
=3D"color:#1155CC">/86/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">slides</sp=
an></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb=
-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.iet=
f.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1=
155CC">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides=
/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">-86-</span></a><a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1155CC">rtcweb</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/p=
roceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">=
-10.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-8=
6-rtcweb-10.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">pdf</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Serge Lachapelle presenting<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gaelle reiterated that more details are needed on the=
 recent announcement and noted that there are more patent holders for H.<u>2=
64 in the ITU-T database</u> that are not
<u>part of</u> MPEG<u>-LA</u>.&nbsp; She asked if the IETF could send letter=
s to solicit information from
<u>these IPR-holders.</u>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Also, please see below some=
 corrections/clarifications:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the same section:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The MPEG-LA pool is a subset.&nbsp; She re-iterated h=
er view that<u> in light of the answers provided by the area directors</u>,=
 the IETF is not the place for clarifying this.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the section:<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mandatory to Implement Video Codec discussion<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">VP8 Technical: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf">
<span style=3D"color:#1155CC">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">=
://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86=
-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">www</span></a><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">ietf</span></a><a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">org</s=
pan></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcwe=
b-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.iet=
f.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#11=
55CC">proceedings</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/sl=
ides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/86/</span></a><a=
 href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><=
span style=3D"color:#1155CC">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC"=
>/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-=
rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http=
://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:#1155CC">-86-</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86=
/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">rtcweb</span><=
/a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.p=
df"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">-9.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.o=
rg/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf"><span style=3D"color:#1155C=
C">pdf</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Harald Alvestrand presenting<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8230;.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gaelle then spoke, saying that <u>in light of the ina=
ccuracy of the tests and related data</u> the venue is wrong, that&nbsp; MPE=
G is the right place<u> to perform those tests and IETF should rely on MPEG=
 results before making a decision</u>.&nbsp;
 She wants to be sure that the tests are accurate, and that the test set and=
 methodology used in IETF are problematic.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the last section:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It was clearly indicated th=
at additional questions should not be the one that were already asked during=
 the meeting or sent on the reflector. (Some of these
 are still pending answers).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sense of the room query: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.o=
rg/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd">
<span style=3D"color:#1155CC">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">=
://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86=
-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">www</span></a><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">ietf</span></a><a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1155CC">.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">org</s=
pan></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcwe=
b-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.iet=
f.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#11=
55CC">proceedings</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/sl=
ides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">/86/</span></a><a=
 href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><=
span style=3D"color:#1155CC">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC"=
>/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-=
rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http=
://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D=
"color:#1155CC">-86-</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86=
/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">rtcweb</span><=
/a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.=
pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155CC">-14.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd"><span style=3D"color:#1155=
CC">pd</span></a>f<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert Sparks (as a favor to the chairs)<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The questions to be asked were put on the slides.&nbs=
p; If you can&#8217;t answer these question, think about what you really nee=
d.&nbsp; Come articulate at the mic after the questions,
<u>issues or questions that have not already being posted on the reflector o=
r that have not been raised during the meeting</u>.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ga=EBlle<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ted Hardie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 05, 2013 4:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 m=
eetings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Howdy,<br>
<br>
We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on the=
 list; thanks to all who reviewed.&nbsp; If you have not yet done so, there=
 is still time to update, so please take a look.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
<br>
Ted Hardie, for the chairs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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 Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is=
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 10:24:05 -0700
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Gaelle Martin-Cocher <gmartincocher@blackberry.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934032b247afa04d9dcb488
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings
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Thanks for pointing these out; they'll get fixed in the next update.

Ted

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Gaelle Martin-Cocher <
gmartincocher@blackberry.com> wrote:

>  Dear all,****
>
> ** **
>
> Some corrections made by Magnus and sent to the list on April 2nd were
> lost; page 3 the first changes under the VP8 IPR presentation should read=
:
> ****
>
> VP8 IPR: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-=
10.pdf>
> :// <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>ww=
w<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>ietf=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>org<=
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> / <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10=
.pdf>
> /86/ <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf=
>
> / <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf=
>
> -86- <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> rtcweb <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf=
>
> -10. <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>
> pdf <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf>**=
*
> *
>
> Serge Lachapelle presenting****
>
> ** **
>
> Gaelle reiterated that more details are needed on the recent announcement
> and noted that there are more patent holders for H.*264 in the ITU-T
> database* that are not *part of* MPEG*-LA*.  She asked if the IETF could
> send letters to solicit information from *these IPR-holders.*  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Also, please see below some corrections/clarifications:****
>
> In the same section:****
>
> The MPEG-LA pool is a subset.  She re-iterated her view that* in light of
> the answers provided by the area directors*, the IETF is not the place
> for clarifying this.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> In the section:****
>
> Mandatory to Implement Video Codec discussion****
>
> VP8 Technical: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-r=
tcweb-9.pdf>
> :// <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>www=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>ietf<=
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>org<h=
ttp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> / <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.=
pdf>
> /86/ <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>=
/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> -86- <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> rtcweb <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> -9. <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>pdf=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf>
> ****
>
> Harald Alvestrand presenting****
>
> =85.****
>
> Gaelle then spoke, saying that *in light of the inaccuracy of the tests
> and related data* the venue is wrong, that  MPEG is the right place* to
> perform those tests and IETF should rely on MPEG results before making a
> decision*.  She wants to be sure that the tests are accurate, and that
> the test set and methodology used in IETF are problematic.****
>
> ** **
>
> In the last section:****
>
> It was clearly indicated that additional questions should not be the one
> that were already asked during the meeting or sent on the reflector. (Som=
e
> of these are still pending answers).****
>
> ** **
>
> Sense of the room query: http<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/s=
lides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> :// <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>www=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>ietf<=
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> . <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>org<h=
ttp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> / <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> proceedings<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14=
.pd>
> /86/ <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>=
/<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> slides <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> -86- <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> rtcweb <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> -14. <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>pd=
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd>
> f****
>
> Robert Sparks (as a favor to the chairs)****
>
> ** **
>
> The questions to be asked were put on the slides.  If you can=92t answer
> these question, think about what you really need.  Come articulate at the
> mic after the questions, *issues or questions that have not already being
> posted on the reflector or that have not been raised during the meeting*.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thank you****
>
> Sincerely,****
>
> Ga=EBlle****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Ted Hardie
> *Sent:* Friday, April 05, 2013 4:29 PM
> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86
> meetings****
>
> ** **
>
> Howdy,
>
> We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on
> the list; thanks to all who reviewed.  If you have not yet done so, there
> is still time to update, so please take a look.
>
> thanks,
>
> Ted Hardie, for the chairs.****
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c
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intende=
d
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from
> your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be
> unlawful.
>

--14dae934032b247afa04d9dcb488
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Thanks for pointing these out; they&#39;ll get fixed in the next update.<br=
><br>Ted<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:54 AM, =
Gaelle Martin-Cocher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmartincocher@=
blackberry.com" target=3D"_blank">gmartincocher@blackberry.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Some corrections made by =
Magnus and sent to the list on April 2<sup>nd</sup> were lost; page 3 the f=
irst changes under the VP8 IPR presentation should read:<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV">VP8 IPR: <a href=3D"http://www.iet=
f.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:#1155cc">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1155cc">://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1155cc">www</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc"=
>.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86=
-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">ietf</span>=
</a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-1=
0.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">.</span></a><a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc" lang=3D"EN-US">org</span></a></=
span><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-=
10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span></a><a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">proceedings</span></a><a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">/86/</span></a><a href=3D"http:=
//www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.i=
etf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proc=
eedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"color:#1155cc">slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
#1155cc">-86-</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slide=
s/slides-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">=
rtcweb</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slide=
s-86-rtcweb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">-10.</s=
pan></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcw=
eb-10.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">pdf</span></a><u=
></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Serge Lachapelle presenting<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gaelle reiterated that more details are needed on th=
e recent announcement and noted that there are more patent holders for H.<u=
>264 in the ITU-T database</u> that are not
<u>part of</u> MPEG<u>-LA</u>.=A0 She asked if the IETF could send letters =
to solicit information from
<u>these IPR-holders.</u>=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Also, please see below so=
me corrections/clarifications:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In the same section:<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The MPEG-LA pool is a subset.=A0 She re-iterated her=
 view that<u> in light of the answers provided by the area directors</u>, t=
he IETF is not the place for clarifying this.=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In the section:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mandatory to Implement Video Codec discussion<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">VP8 Technical: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:#1155cc">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:#1155cc">://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceeding=
s/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
#1155cc">www</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides=
/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">.<=
/span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rt=
cweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">ietf</span></a>=
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">.</span></a><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">org</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ie=
tf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><spa=
n style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:#1155cc">proceedings</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:#1155cc">/86/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">=
slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slide=
s-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span>=
</a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9=
.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">slides</span></a><a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">-86-</span></a><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">rtcweb</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.=
ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1155cc">-9.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/pr=
oceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-9.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:#1155cc">pdf</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Harald Alvestrand presenting<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=85.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gaelle then spoke, saying that <u>in light of the in=
accuracy of the tests and related data</u> the venue is wrong, that=A0 MPEG=
 is the right place<u> to perform those tests and IETF should rely on MPEG =
results before making a decision</u>.=A0
 She wants to be sure that the tests are accurate, and that the test set an=
d methodology used in IETF are problematic.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In the last section:<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">It was clearly indicated =
that additional questions should not be the one that were already asked dur=
ing the meeting or sent on the reflector. (Some of these
 are still pending answers).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sense of the room query: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:#1155cc">http</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:#1155cc">://</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceeding=
s/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
#1155cc">www</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides=
/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">.<=
/span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rt=
cweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">ietf</span></a>=
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">.</span></a><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">org</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ie=
tf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><spa=
n style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:#1155cc">proceedings</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:#1155cc">/86/</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slid=
es/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">=
slides</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slide=
s-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">/</span>=
</a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-1=
4.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">slides</span></a><a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">-86-</span></a><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc">rtcweb</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.=
ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1155cc">-14.</span></a><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/p=
roceedings/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-14.pd" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:#1155cc">pd</span></a>f<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert Sparks (as a favor to the chairs)<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The questions to be asked were put on the slides.=A0=
 If you can=92t answer these question, think about what you really need.=A0=
 Come articulate at the mic after the questions,
<u>issues or questions that have not already being posted on the reflector =
or that have not been raised during the meeting</u>.=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thank you<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sincerely,<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Ga=EBlle<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> <a href=
=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ted Hardie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 05, 2013 4:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 =
meetings<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Howdy,<br>
<br>
We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on th=
e list; thanks to all who reviewed.=A0 If you have not yet done so, there i=
s still time to update, so please take a look.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
<br>
Ted Hardie, for the chairs.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
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Ted --
I have gone over the minutes from the DataChannel sessions.  It appears to =
me that there are some issues with the minutes.  Comments below on Randell'=
s session.  More to follow.=20
Presenter: Randell Jesep Slides:http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/s=
lides=AD86=ADrtcweb=AD5.pdf
[BA] What specific drafts did this presentation relate to?  I think it's qu=
ite important to be specific=2C since comments during the session need a co=
ntext.  For example=2C did this presentation relate to the individual submi=
ssion draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol=2C the RTCWEB WG work item draft-iet=
f-rtcweb-data-channel=2C or the MMUSIC WG work item draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-=
sdp?  Since the presentation refers to SDP=2C  at least the MMUSIC WG work =
item seems relevant=2C no?=20
Richard Ejzak asked what is our bottom line? He sees this as going backward=
sfrom interim. SDP negotiation removed
[BA] Randell's proposal did not propose to remove all SDP negotiation.  It =
leaves negotiation of DTLS port and SCTP associations in SDP=2C but removes=
 SDP negotiation of streams.   It seems important to be specific about what=
 was being discussed (e.g. modifications to draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp)=2C =
so as to be able to understand what commenters were referring to.=20
Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal is great
[BA] It is hard for me to understand what Peter meant without some addition=
al context (e.g. was the comment only about the proposal to remove stream n=
egotiation from SDP=2C or potentially a comment about draft-jesup-rtcweb-da=
ta-protocol?)
Randell added that the solution DO have a protocol parameter with this stil=
l.
[BA] What "solution" is being referred to here?  The proposal in draft-jesu=
p-rtcweb-data-protocol?   A post to the mailing list?   The participants we=
re discussing how streams are set up=2C but it wasn't clear to me what was =
being referred to.=20
Harald Alverstrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channel ne=
gotiation out of the document.=20
[BA] Specifically I believe Harald was referring to Randell's proposal to r=
emove stream negotiation from draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp.  Since stream neg=
otiation is still in the document=2C "got" is not correct. =20
Salvatore Loreto stated that he like this proposal =AD should negotiate onl=
y one way and should not use SDP.
[BA] Again=2C I believe that this meant "should not use SDP for stream nego=
tiation". =20
Jerome Marcon added that the draft does not really contain all this materia=
l now=2C therefore text needs to be added. Randell agreed that there need t=
o be added
[BA] What does "the draft" refer to here?  draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp?  Tha=
t makes the most sense to me since stream negotiation was still in there.=20
Chairs asked how many had read the draft=2C which was couple of dozen. Chai=
rsurge people to read and report new issues to the mailing list. Request th=
atRandell takes the open issues in separate emails to the list.
[BA] Again what is "the draft" referring to here?  Since draft-ietf-mmusic-=
sctp-sdp didn't contain the material that was presented=2C was this what th=
e chairs were referring to?  Or did they mean draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channe=
l?  I have read all the above docs=2C and have gone over the MeetEcho sessi=
on=2C and still don't understand what was being referred to here=2C (or eve=
n why it was relevant).=20
Salvatore commented that one open issue is if we are going to definepriorit=
ization between channels. Randell responded that prioritization istricky as=
 it interacts with congestion control
[BA] Prioritization is discussed in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol=2C but=
 not in the other documents=2C so was Salvatore referring to that document =
here? =20
Randell responded that he has no issue of adding this to the list of open i=
ssues.
[BA] Open issues on what document?






Date: Fri=2C 5 Apr 2013 13:28:45 -0700
From: ted.ietf@gmail.com
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meeting=
s

Howdy=2C

We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on th=
e list=3B thanks to all who reviewed.  If you have not yet done so=2C there=
 is still time to update=2C so please take a look.

thanks=2C
=0A=

Ted Hardie=2C for the chairs.
=0A=

_______________________________________________=0A=
rtcweb mailing list=0A=
rtcweb@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb 		 	   		  =

--_880a0a3f-cbf7-42fc-a6c8-664567939e5a_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Ted --<div><br></div><div>I have=
 gone over the minutes from the DataChannel sessions. &nbsp=3BIt appears to=
 me that there are some issues with the minutes. &nbsp=3BComments below on =
Randell's session. &nbsp=3BMore to follow.&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div=
><div>Presenter: Randell Jesep Slides:</div><div>http://www.ietf.org/procee=
dings/86/slides/slides=AD86=ADrtcweb=AD5.pdf</div></div><div><br></div><div=
>[BA] What specific drafts did this presentation relate to? &nbsp=3BI think=
 it's quite important to be specific=2C since comments during the session n=
eed a context. &nbsp=3BFor example=2C did this presentation relate to the i=
ndividual submission draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol=2C the RTCWEB WG work=
 item draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel=2C or the MMUSIC WG work item draft-ie=
tf-mmusic-sctp-sdp? &nbsp=3BSince the presentation refers to SDP=2C &nbsp=
=3Bat least the MMUSIC WG work item seems relevant=2C no?&nbsp=3B</div><div=
><br></div><div><div>Richard Ejzak asked what is our bottom line? He sees t=
his as going backwards</div><div>from interim. SDP negotiation removed</div=
></div><div><br></div><div>[BA] Randell's proposal did not propose to remov=
e all SDP negotiation. &nbsp=3BIt leaves negotiation of DTLS port and SCTP =
associations in SDP=2C but removes SDP negotiation of streams. &nbsp=3B It =
seems important to be specific about what was being discussed (e.g. modific=
ations to draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp)=2C so as to be able to understand wha=
t commenters were referring to.&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div>Peter That=
cher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal is great</div><div><=
br></div><div>[BA] It is hard for me to understand what Peter meant without=
 some additional context (e.g. was the comment only about the proposal to r=
emove stream negotiation from SDP=2C or potentially a comment about draft-j=
esup-rtcweb-data-protocol?)</div><div><br></div><div><div>Randell added tha=
t the solution DO have a protocol parameter with this&nbsp=3B<span style=3D=
"font-size: 12pt=3B">still.</span></div></div><div><span style=3D"font-size=
: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[BA] Wh=
at "solution" is being referred to here? &nbsp=3BThe proposal in draft-jesu=
p-rtcweb-data-protocol? &nbsp=3B A post to the mailing list? &nbsp=3B The p=
articipants were discussing how streams are set up=2C but it wasn't clear t=
o me what was being referred to.&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">=
<div>Harald Alverstrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data chann=
el&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">negotiation out of the documen=
t.&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span><=
/div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[BA] Specifically I believe Ha=
rald was referring to Randell's proposal to remove stream negotiation from =
draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp. &nbsp=3BSince stream negotiation is still in th=
e document=2C "got" is not correct. &nbsp=3B</span></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12p=
t=3B"><div>Salvatore Loreto stated that he like this proposal =AD should ne=
gotiate only one&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">way and should n=
ot use SDP.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span>=
</div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[BA] Again=2C I believe that =
this meant "should not use SDP for stream negotiation". &nbsp=3B</span></di=
v><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><div>Jerome Marcon added that the draft does not re=
ally contain all this material&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">no=
w=2C therefore text needs to be added. Randell agreed that there need to be=
&nbsp=3B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">added</span></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-=
size: 12pt=3B">[BA] What does "the draft" refer to here? &nbsp=3Bdraft-ietf=
-mmusic-sctp-sdp? &nbsp=3BThat makes the most sense to me since stream nego=
tiation was still in there.&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><div>=
Chairs asked how many had read the draft=2C which was couple of dozen. Chai=
rs</div><div>urge people to read and report new issues to the mailing list.=
 Request that</div><div>Randell takes the open issues in separate emails to=
 the list.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] Again what is "the draft" referrin=
g to here? &nbsp=3BSince draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp didn't contain the mate=
rial that was presented=2C was this what the chairs were referring to? &nbs=
p=3BOr did they mean draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel? &nbsp=3BI have read al=
l the above docs=2C and have gone over the MeetEcho session=2C and still do=
n't understand what was being referred to here=2C (or even why it was relev=
ant).&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div><div>Salvatore commented that one op=
en issue is if we are going to define</div><div>prioritization between chan=
nels. Randell responded that prioritization is</div><div>tricky as it inter=
acts with congestion control</div></div><div><br></div><div>[BA] Prioritiza=
tion is discussed in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol=2C but not in the oth=
er documents=2C so was Salvatore referring to that document here? &nbsp=3B<=
/div><div><br></div><div><div>Randell responded that he has no issue&nbsp=
=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">of adding this to the list of open is=
sues.</span></div></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span>=
</div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[BA] Open issues on what docu=
ment?</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></div></span></div></spa=
n></div></span></div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr =
id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Fri=2C 5 Apr 2013 13:28:45 -0700<br>From: ted.iet=
f@gmail.com<br>To: rtcweb@ietf.org<br>Subject: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified mi=
nutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings<br><br>Howdy=2C<br><br>We have now =
uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on the list=3B th=
anks to all who reviewed.&nbsp=3B If you have not yet done so=2C there is s=
till time to update=2C so please take a look.<br><br>thanks=2C<br>=0A=
<br>Ted Hardie=2C for the chairs.<br>=0A=
<br>_______________________________________________=0A=
rtcweb mailing list=0A=
rtcweb@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</div></div> 		 	   		  </div><=
/body>
</html>=

--_880a0a3f-cbf7-42fc-a6c8-664567939e5a_--

From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Mon Apr  8 13:31:56 2013
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:30:01 -0400
From: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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On 4/8/2013 3:13 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Ted --
>
> I have gone over the minutes from the DataChannel sessions.  It 
> appears to me that there are some issues with the minutes.  Comments 
> below on Randell's session.  More to follow.
>
> Presenter: Randell Jesep Slides:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides­86­rtcweb­5.pdf

Sigh.  I was waiting for that misspelling to occur.... :-(

>
> [BA] What specific drafts did this presentation relate to?  I think 
> it's quite important to be specific, since comments during the session 
> need a context.  For example, did this presentation relate to the 
> individual submission draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol, the RTCWEB WG 
> work item draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, or the MMUSIC WG work item 
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp?  Since the presentation refers to SDP,  at 
> least the MMUSIC WG work item seems relevant, no?

draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol (as stated right above what you copied, 
on the other side of a page break).  It *impacts* 
draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp.

> Richard Ejzak asked what is our bottom line? He sees this as going 
> backwards
> from interim. SDP negotiation removed
>
> [BA] Randell's proposal did not propose to remove all SDP negotiation. 
>  It leaves negotiation of DTLS port and SCTP associations in SDP, but 
> removes SDP negotiation of streams. It seems important to be specific 
> about what was being discussed (e.g. modifications to 
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp), so as to be able to understand what 
> commenters were referring to.

Correct.  "Initial SDP negotiation of individual DataChannels removed" 
would be more accurate.

>
> Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal is great
>
> [BA] It is hard for me to understand what Peter meant without some 
> additional context (e.g. was the comment only about the proposal to 
> remove stream negotiation from SDP, or potentially a comment about 
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol?)

The implied context in the room was that what was presented and in the 
draft (data-protocol) was great.

>
> Randell added that the solution DO have a protocol parameter with this 
> still.
>
> [BA] What "solution" is being referred to here?  The proposal in 
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol?   A post to the mailing list?   The 
> participants were discussing how streams are set up, but it wasn't 
> clear to me what was being referred to.

I think this quote is confused.  (We're talking about the whole RTT 
thing here mostly).  I *think* I said we *do* have a protocol parameter 
on channels, and so that can be used to handle channels created after 
the initial offer/answer.  I also stated earlier that I'd responded to a 
very similar comment on the list with a more detailed response (the 
previous night, so people might not have read it yet).

>
> Harald Alverstrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data 
> channel negotiation out of the document.
>
> [BA] Specifically I believe Harald was referring to Randell's proposal 
> to remove stream negotiation from draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp.  Since 
> stream negotiation is still in the document, "got" is not correct.

Yes, given this wasn't a joint session and we didn't update the other 
draft in time for the cutoff, technically that's correct, but in 
practice the SDP is the way to do negotiation for DataChannels as 
defined in rtcweb, so regardless if the change had been formally applied 
yet they're linked.

>
> Salvatore Loreto stated that he like this proposal ­ should negotiate 
> only one way and should not use SDP.
>
> [BA] Again, I believe that this meant "should not use SDP for stream 
> negotiation".

Correct.  (And Salvatore is the other author on the mmusic draft.)

>
> Jerome Marcon added that the draft does not really contain all this 
> material now, therefore text needs to be added. Randell agreed that 
> there need to be added
>
> [BA] What does "the draft" refer to here?  draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp? 
>  That makes the most sense to me since stream negotiation was still in 
> there.

Unclear, but it may well refer to the mmusic stuff, and might also refer 
to the even/odd details.

>
> Chairs asked how many had read the draft, which was couple of dozen. 
> Chairs
> urge people to read and report new issues to the mailing list. Request 
> that
> Randell takes the open issues in separate emails to the list.
>
> [BA] Again what is "the draft" referring to here?  Since 
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp didn't contain the material that was 
> presented, was this what the chairs were referring to?  Or did they 
> mean draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel?  I have read all the above docs, 
> and have gone over the MeetEcho session, and still don't understand 
> what was being referred to here, (or even why it was relevant).

draft-jesup-data-protocol (again, stated above the page-break in the 
notes, and on the title page of my slides)

>
> Salvatore commented that one open issue is if we are going to define
> prioritization between channels. Randell responded that prioritization is
> tricky as it interacts with congestion control
>
> [BA] Prioritization is discussed in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol, 
> but not in the other documents, so was Salvatore referring to that 
> document here?
>
> Randell responded that he has no issue of adding this to the list of 
> open issues.
>
> [BA] Open issues on what document?
>

Ditto the comments above.  draft-jesup-data-protocol

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Bernard,

We definitely should try to improve the minutes with the context. But, I
do have to make an observation. We are commonly this poor at being exact
in referencing and being specific when discussing at the mic. Just
something for everyone to think about. That would help and reduce the
risk that a note-taker or chair cleaning up minutes to wrongly attribute
statements to the wrong context.

It would be good if the persons who actually made statements around this
could help clarify what was intended to be referenced.

Thanks

Magnus

On 2013-04-08 21:13, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Ted --
> 
> I have gone over the minutes from the DataChannel sessions.  It appears
> to me that there are some issues with the minutes.  Comments below on
> Randell's session.  More to follow. 
> 
> Presenter: Randell Jesep Slides:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides­86­rtcweb­5.pdf
> 
> [BA] What specific drafts did this presentation relate to?  I think it's
> quite important to be specific, since comments during the session need a
> context.  For example, did this presentation relate to the individual
> submission draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol, the RTCWEB WG work item
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, or the MMUSIC WG work item
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp?  Since the presentation refers to SDP,  at
> least the MMUSIC WG work item seems relevant, no? 
> 
> Richard Ejzak asked what is our bottom line? He sees this as going backwards
> from interim. SDP negotiation removed
> 
> [BA] Randell's proposal did not propose to remove all SDP negotiation.
>  It leaves negotiation of DTLS port and SCTP associations in SDP, but
> removes SDP negotiation of streams.   It seems important to be specific
> about what was being discussed (e.g. modifications to
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp), so as to be able to understand what
> commenters were referring to. 
> 
> Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal is great
> 
> [BA] It is hard for me to understand what Peter meant without some
> additional context (e.g. was the comment only about the proposal to
> remove stream negotiation from SDP, or potentially a comment about
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol?)
> 
> Randell added that the solution DO have a protocol parameter with
> this still.
> 
> [BA] What "solution" is being referred to here?  The proposal in
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol?   A post to the mailing list?   The
> participants were discussing how streams are set up, but it wasn't clear
> to me what was being referred to. 
> 
> Harald Alverstrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data
> channel negotiation out of the document. 
> 
> [BA] Specifically I believe Harald was referring to Randell's proposal
> to remove stream negotiation from draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp.  Since
> stream negotiation is still in the document, "got" is not correct.  
> 
> Salvatore Loreto stated that he like this proposal ­ should negotiate
> only one way and should not use SDP.
> 
> [BA] Again, I believe that this meant "should not use SDP for stream
> negotiation".  
> 
> Jerome Marcon added that the draft does not really contain all this
> material now, therefore text needs to be added. Randell agreed that
> there need to be added
> 
> [BA] What does "the draft" refer to here?  draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp?
>  That makes the most sense to me since stream negotiation was still in
> there. 
> 
> Chairs asked how many had read the draft, which was couple of dozen. Chairs
> urge people to read and report new issues to the mailing list. Request that
> Randell takes the open issues in separate emails to the list.
> 
> [BA] Again what is "the draft" referring to here?  Since
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp didn't contain the material that was
> presented, was this what the chairs were referring to?  Or did they mean
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel?  I have read all the above docs, and
> have gone over the MeetEcho session, and still don't understand what was
> being referred to here, (or even why it was relevant). 
> 
> Salvatore commented that one open issue is if we are going to define
> prioritization between channels. Randell responded that prioritization is
> tricky as it interacts with congestion control
> 
> [BA] Prioritization is discussed in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol,
> but not in the other documents, so was Salvatore referring to that
> document here?  
> 
> Randell responded that he has no issue of adding this to the list of
> open issues.
> 
> [BA] Open issues on what document?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:28:45 -0700
> From: ted.ietf@gmail.com
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] Uploaded unified minutes for both days of IETF 86 meetings
> 
> Howdy,
> 
> We have now uploaded unified minutes with the corrections we received on
> the list; thanks to all who reviewed.  If you have not yet done so,
> there is still time to update, so please take a look.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Ted Hardie, for the chairs.
> 
> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From ted.ietf@gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 15:20:34 2013
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To: rtcweb@ietf.org
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Howdy,

We had a brief period in which DKIM signatures were failing on this list.
This was noticed when bounces related to this caused Mailman to unsubscribe
a user, and it has been fixed.  We've also restored that user.

The total amount of time this was going on was short, but if you have a
mail system that silently drops mail with a bad DKIM signature, rather than
bouncing it, you may have missed some email to the list.  Please check the
archives (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/maillist.html)
for the past week if you are concerned that your configuration may have
been effected.

regards,

Ted Hardie

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Howdy,<br><br>We had a brief period in which DKIM signatures were failing o=
n this list.=A0 This was noticed when bounces related to this caused Mailma=
n to unsubscribe a user, and it has been fixed.=A0 We&#39;ve also restored =
that user.=A0 <br>
<br>The total amount of time this was going on was short, but if you have a=
 mail system that silently drops mail with a bad DKIM signature, rather tha=
n bouncing it, you may have missed some email to the list.=A0 Please check =
the archives (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/curren=
t/maillist.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/mailli=
st.html</a>) for the past week if you are concerned that your configuration=
 may have been effected.=A0 <br>
<br>regards,<br><br>Ted Hardie<br>

--047d7b3a98b83a4a8a04d9f4f649--

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Subject: [rtcweb] Fwd: Re: [AVTCORE] Reminder: Re: WG last call on draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis-01
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RTCWEB WG,

I have concluded in my role as AVTCORE WG co-chair that the RFC 6222
update has not received sufficient reviews to progress towards
publication request.

Here is your chance to contribute. All it takes is to review a short
document and publicly state so on the AVTCORE mailing list
(avt@ietf.org) and provide your opinion of its readiness for publication.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund
RTCWEB WG co-chair

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WG,

This WG last call has concluded. I think the level of reviews on this
document are very low. In the working group last call only Kevin Gross
and I have stated that they have reviewed the latest version.

Authors please address raised issues.

I will not consider this a successful WG last call unless at least one
additional person reviews it who are not an author. It is a very short
document and it also don't require massive amounts of additional
knowledge beyond basic RTP understanding to review.

Regards

Magnus Westerlund
WG chair

On 2013-03-28 11:01, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> WG,
> 
> So far there has be no other reviews of this document than mine.
> 
> Can someone please review this document?
> 
> I hereby extended the WG last call with one week until the 7th of April.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Magnus
> 
> On 2013-03-12 20:04, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
>> WG,
>>
>> This is to announce the start of a WG last call on:
>>
>> Guidelines for Choosing RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Canonical Names
>> (CNAMEs) to be published as a proposed standard.
>>
>> Document can be retrieved here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis/
>>
>> Please provide any feedback by the 31st of March.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Magnus Westerlund
>> WG chair
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>> Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>> avt@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>>
>>
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------




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To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "public-webrtc@w3.org" <public-webrtc@w3.org>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:34:30 +0000
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Randell,

What about data channel priority ?

Jerome
=20

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]=20
> De la part de Randell Jesup
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 1 avril 2013 04:29
> =C0 : public-webrtc@w3.org
> Cc : rtcweb@ietf.org
> Objet : [rtcweb] DataChannels API and external negotiation
>=20
> Here's a proposed API for DataChannels with external=20
> negotiation, per the recent Interim and IETF meeting (most of=20
> this was in my previous W3 email, but I've added info on when=20
> 'stream' is valid to read, and how even/odd roles are=20
> assigned for the IETF protocol). I'll note for the IETF folks=20
> that 'protocol' is in a JS dictionary object in this update,=20
> which avoids breaking any current experimental applications=20
> (and avoids them having any incentive to UA-sniff).  Also, I=20
> think it works better in the dictionary.
>=20
>    channel =3D peerconnection.createDataChannel(label,=20
> dictionary_object);
>=20
> /* If either maxRetransmitTime or maxRetransmitNum are set, it's
>     unreliable, else it's a reliable channel.  If both are set it's an
>     error.  outOfOrderAllowed can be used with any type of=20
> channel.  The
>     equivalent of UDP is { outOfOrderAllowed: true,=20
> maxRetransmitNum: 0 }.
>     The TCP equivalent is {}.
>=20
>     preset is set to true if the channel is being externally=20
> negotiated, and
>     no wireline OpenRequest message should be sent.  If=20
> preset is true, stream
>     can be optionally used to set a specific SCTP stream to=20
> use.  If it's
>     not set but preset is true, then the application should=20
> read the 'stream'
>     attribute from the returned DataChannel after onopen and=20
> convey it to the
>     other end to pass in via the DataChannelInit dictionary.
>   */
>=20
> dictionary DataChannelInit {
>    boolean outOfOrderAllowed;
>    unsigned short maxRetransmitTime;
>    unsigned short maxRetransmitNum;
>    DOMString protocol;
>    boolean preset;
>    unsigned short stream;
> };
>=20
> And I added to the DataChannel object webidl:
>=20
>    readonly attribute DOMString protocol;
>    /* the 'stream' attribute is not valid until after onopen=20
> has fired */
>    readonly attribute unsigned short stream;
>=20
>=20
> Even/odd roles for the underlying DataChannel protocol are=20
> tied to the DTLS roles on the DTLS connection.  These are=20
> only available after the DTLS connection is established, and=20
> so we will set the even/odd roles when the initial=20
> association is established (which is when onconnection fires,=20
> and then any queued DataChannels would have onopen fire).
>=20
> --=20
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> =

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Subject: [rtcweb]  #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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#13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN

 Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol:

 All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.

 [BA] The DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is not acknowledged at the application
 layer.  Therefore all that reliability and in-order delivery provides
 (within the SCTP implementation) is the message was *received*, which
 doesn't tell you if the message was acted on or not.  If you do support
 app-layer acknowledgement to address this, then you don't need transport
 reliability.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-jesup-rtcweb-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  data-protocol@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  data-channel             |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Candidate WG Document    |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/13>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Mon Apr 15 22:41:03 2013
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:38:52 -0400
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/11/2013 7:04 PM, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>
>   Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol:
>
>   All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.
>
>   [BA] The DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is not acknowledged at the application
>   layer.  Therefore all that reliability and in-order delivery provides
>   (within the SCTP implementation) is the message was *received*, which
>   doesn't tell you if the message was acted on or not.  If you do support
>   app-layer acknowledgement to address this, then you don't need transport
>   reliability.
>

I disagree (though I suppose you don't *need* in-order, but it's a good 
idea).

Reliable delivery means that you won't have a problem of "Open message 
gets lost, all data packets get queued at receiver but never 
delivered".  Unless you have some meta-channel to tell the receiver that 
an open is on it's way, or add something to say " I have data but no 
Open", you want it to automatically retry to get the Open message 
through and unblock the channel.  This isn't about the sending-side 
application knowing the Open was received (in fact, this draft gives no 
way for the JS app to know that).

In theory because of the queue-on-data-before-open, you don't *need* 
in-order (and it only matters anyways if the channel is marked as 
in-order; otherwise it has no effect).  But I also see no reason for it 
not to be in-order in that case.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 15 April 2013 22:38, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> I disagree (though I suppose you don't *need* in-order, but it's a good
> idea).

In order delivery is not going to change anything.  It's neither good
nor bad, it's straight up useless.  It's the ordering of the next
packet that matters.  If that is marked for out of order delivery, it
can be delivered to the application (in this case, I'm talking about
the browser) before the open message.  Thus, the browser can (and
will) receive messages prior to getting an open.

The only safe assumption it can make at this point is that the channel
is configured for out of order delivery.  Better to be silent about in
order delivery and leave that for buffering.

I do agree with you about reliability.  If you care about this message
enough to have it sent, then you probably want retransmission.

From vkg@bell-labs.com  Tue Apr 16 11:57:26 2013
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From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Subject: [rtcweb] IEEE Communications Special Issue on Web-based Communications
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Folks: Salvatore Loreto, Jörg Ott and I are the guest editors of a
special issue in IEEE Communications on Web-based Communications.

The papers in this special issue have been published in the current
IEEE Communications 15(4), April 2013.  The issue is available in
print and through IEEE Explore.

There were 5 papers published in the special issue.  These papers
cover the spectrum of rtcweb from an introductory tutorial to using
rtcweb in an enterprise.  Specifically, the following papers have been
published:

- "Guest editorial," Salvatore Loreto, Vijay K. Gurbani and Jörg Ott
- "Real-time communications for the web," Cullen Jennings, Ted Hardie
  and Magnus Westerland.
- "A case for SIP in JavaScript," Kundan Sing and Venkatesh Krishnaswamy
- "Data channel considerations for RTCWeb," Martin Becke, Ervin P.
  Rathgeb, Sebastian Werner, Irene Rungeler, Michael Tuxen and Randall
  Stewart.
- "On the seamless interaction between WebRTC browsers and SIP-based
  conferencing systems," Alessandro Amirante, Tobia Castaldi, Lorenzo
  Miniero and Simon Pietro Romano.
- "Taking on WebRTC in an enterprise," Alan Johnston, John Yoakum and
  Kundan Sing.

Happy reading.

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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A reminder:  If the JS specifically sets the SID when creating a data
channel, then it can receive data without getting an OPEN message.

I agree with Martin and Randell that the OPEN message must be sent
reliably.

I agree with Martin about in-order-ness and that the real question, if I
can put it in my own words, is: What does the browser do when it receives
data before an OPEN message for a SID that is not currently configured to
receive data (ie JS has not called create channel for that SID and we've
not received an OPEN for that SID)?

No matter what we specify as the correct behavior, the browser still has to
deal with this scenario, at the very least because of possibly erroneous or
even malicious senders.

It sounds like the answer appears to be "buffer until the OPEN".  But there
has to be a limit to how much we buffer.  What if the remote peer
accidentally or maliciously sends us 1GB of data and never sends an OPEN
message?  Then what does the browser do?


I think at that point, we either have to drop data or fire an event up to
JS letting it know.  I would suggest that after some buffer limit N, the
browser may fire .ondatachannel even if an OPEN message is not received,
and then deliver buffered data through the channel given in that event.
 The only alternative seems to be to just drop the data without telling the
JS.  Are there are any other alternatives I haven't thought of?





On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 15 April 2013 22:38, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> > I disagree (though I suppose you don't *need* in-order, but it's a good
> > idea).
>
> In order delivery is not going to change anything.  It's neither good
> nor bad, it's straight up useless.  It's the ordering of the next
> packet that matters.  If that is marked for out of order delivery, it
> can be delivered to the application (in this case, I'm talking about
> the browser) before the open message.  Thus, the browser can (and
> will) receive messages prior to getting an open.
>
> The only safe assumption it can make at this point is that the channel
> is configured for out of order delivery.  Better to be silent about in
> order delivery and leave that for buffering.
>
> I do agree with you about reliability.  If you care about this message
> enough to have it sent, then you probably want retransmission.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--047d7bdc1b5a6f6d2404da903b39
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<div dir=3D"ltr">A reminder: =C2=A0If the JS specifically sets the SID when=
 creating a data channel, then it can receive data without getting an OPEN =
message.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div style>I agree with Martin and Randell tha=
t the OPEN message must be sent reliably. =C2=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>I agree with Martin about in-order-ness and that the re=
al question, if I can put it in my own words, is: What does the browser do =
when it receives data before an OPEN message for a SID that is not currentl=
y configured to receive data (ie JS has not called create channel for that =
SID and we&#39;ve not received an OPEN for that SID)? =C2=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div style>No matter what we specify as the correct behavior=
, the browser still has to deal with this scenario, at the very least becau=
se of possibly erroneous or even malicious senders.</div><div><br></div>

<div>It sounds like the answer appears to be &quot;buffer until the OPEN&qu=
ot;. =C2=A0But there has to be a limit to how much we buffer. =C2=A0What if=
 the remote peer accidentally or maliciously sends us 1GB of data and never=
 sends an OPEN message? =C2=A0Then what does the browser do?<br>

</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style>I think at that point, we ei=
ther have to drop data or fire an event up to JS letting it know. =C2=A0I w=
ould suggest that after some buffer limit N, the browser may fire .ondatach=
annel even if an OPEN message is not received, and then deliver buffered da=
ta through the channel given in that event. =C2=A0The only alternative seem=
s to be to just drop the data without telling the JS. =C2=A0Are there are a=
ny other alternatives I haven&#39;t thought of?</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div><div><br></div></div></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 16=
, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
artin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 15 April 2013 22:38, Ra=
ndell Jesup &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org">randell-ietf@jesu=
p.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>


&gt; I disagree (though I suppose you don&#39;t *need* in-order, but it&#39=
;s a good<br>
&gt; idea).<br>
<br>
</div>In order delivery is not going to change anything. =C2=A0It&#39;s nei=
ther good<br>
nor bad, it&#39;s straight up useless. =C2=A0It&#39;s the ordering of the n=
ext<br>
packet that matters. =C2=A0If that is marked for out of order delivery, it<=
br>
can be delivered to the application (in this case, I&#39;m talking about<br=
>
the browser) before the open message. =C2=A0Thus, the browser can (and<br>
will) receive messages prior to getting an open.<br>
<br>
The only safe assumption it can make at this point is that the channel<br>
is configured for out of order delivery. =C2=A0Better to be silent about in=
<br>
order delivery and leave that for buffering.<br>
<br>
I do agree with you about reliability. =C2=A0If you care about this message=
<br>
enough to have it sent, then you probably want retransmission.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">___________________________________=
____________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bdc1b5a6f6d2404da903b39--

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 11:46:41 2013
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 17 April 2013 08:34, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
> What does the browser do when it receives data
> before an OPEN message for a SID that is not currently configured to receive
> data (ie JS has not called create channel for that SID and we've not
> received an OPEN for that SID)?

This is the key.  Doubly so in light of:

> A reminder:  If the JS specifically sets the SID when creating a data
> channel, then it can receive data without getting an OPEN message.

The only reasonable thing to do is to buffer data with an upper bound
on time, size and number of messages.  When any of those limits are
hit, then you need to do something.

> I think at that point, we either have to drop data or fire an event up to JS
> letting it know.  I would suggest that after some buffer limit N, the
> browser may fire .ondatachannel even if an OPEN message is not received, and
> then deliver buffered data through the channel given in that event.  The
> only alternative seems to be to just drop the data without telling the JS.
> Are there are any other alternatives I haven't thought of?

I see the same two options: create a data channel with some default or
inferred properties and fire events for the arrived messages, or
complain loudly and chuck the messages away.

I like the former, but we've violated expectations about consistency
of channel properties.  And this time its our (as a browser, that is)
fault, we were asked to do something and we failed to do it.  Packet
loss happens and we didn't allow for it.

From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Apr 17 14:58:20 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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I think I (on behalf of applications I'll be writing) am in the camp of 
"If I asked to be told what the incoming data channel was (by not 
registering to handle data without an OPEN), and didn't get told what it 
was, I don't want the data".

Perhaps provide a few buffers to handle packet reordering.
But beyond that: Throw the data away.

On 04/17/2013 08:46 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 17 April 2013 08:34, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
>> What does the browser do when it receives data
>> before an OPEN message for a SID that is not currently configured to receive
>> data (ie JS has not called create channel for that SID and we've not
>> received an OPEN for that SID)?
> This is the key.  Doubly so in light of:
>
>> A reminder:  If the JS specifically sets the SID when creating a data
>> channel, then it can receive data without getting an OPEN message.
> The only reasonable thing to do is to buffer data with an upper bound
> on time, size and number of messages.  When any of those limits are
> hit, then you need to do something.
>
>> I think at that point, we either have to drop data or fire an event up to JS
>> letting it know.  I would suggest that after some buffer limit N, the
>> browser may fire .ondatachannel even if an OPEN message is not received, and
>> then deliver buffered data through the channel given in that event.  The
>> only alternative seems to be to just drop the data without telling the JS.
>> Are there are any other alternatives I haven't thought of?
> I see the same two options: create a data channel with some default or
> inferred properties and fire events for the arrived messages, or
> complain loudly and chuck the messages away.
>
> I like the former, but we've violated expectations about consistency
> of channel properties.  And this time its our (as a browser, that is)
> fault, we were asked to do something and we failed to do it.  Packet
> loss happens and we didn't allow for it.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 15:01:54 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 17 April 2013 14:58, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
> I think I (on behalf of applications I'll be writing) am in the camp of "If
> I asked to be told what the incoming data channel was (by not registering to
> handle data without an OPEN), and didn't get told what it was, I don't want
> the data".
>
> Perhaps provide a few buffers to handle packet reordering.
> But beyond that: Throw the data away.

What if the data is ordered?  Couldn't the data you actually get
depend on the data that got discarded?

From jim.barnett@genesyslab.com  Wed Apr 17 15:12:14 2013
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From: Jim Barnett <Jim.Barnett@genesyslab.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org> <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org> <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com> <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>
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I agree.  Here's another way to look at it:  if you were in charge of secur=
ity, would you allow installation of a browser that would quietly accept la=
rge amounts of data without notifying anyone/anything?

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Harald Alvestrand
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:58 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN

I think I (on behalf of applications I'll be writing) am in the camp of "If=
 I asked to be told what the incoming data channel was (by not registering =
to handle data without an OPEN), and didn't get told what it was, I don't w=
ant the data".

Perhaps provide a few buffers to handle packet reordering.
But beyond that: Throw the data away.

On 04/17/2013 08:46 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 17 April 2013 08:34, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
>> What does the browser do when it receives data before an OPEN message=20
>> for a SID that is not currently configured to receive data (ie JS has=20
>> not called create channel for that SID and we've not received an OPEN=20
>> for that SID)?
> This is the key.  Doubly so in light of:
>
>> A reminder:  If the JS specifically sets the SID when creating a data=20
>> channel, then it can receive data without getting an OPEN message.
> The only reasonable thing to do is to buffer data with an upper bound=20
> on time, size and number of messages.  When any of those limits are=20
> hit, then you need to do something.
>
>> I think at that point, we either have to drop data or fire an event=20
>> up to JS letting it know.  I would suggest that after some buffer=20
>> limit N, the browser may fire .ondatachannel even if an OPEN message=20
>> is not received, and then deliver buffered data through the channel=20
>> given in that event.  The only alternative seems to be to just drop the =
data without telling the JS.
>> Are there are any other alternatives I haven't thought of?
> I see the same two options: create a data channel with some default or=20
> inferred properties and fire events for the arrived messages, or=20
> complain loudly and chuck the messages away.
>
> I like the former, but we've violated expectations about consistency=20
> of channel properties.  And this time its our (as a browser, that is)=20
> fault, we were asked to do something and we failed to do it.  Packet=20
> loss happens and we didn't allow for it.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On 04/18/2013 12:01 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 17 April 2013 14:58, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> I think I (on behalf of applications I'll be writing) am in the camp of "If
>> I asked to be told what the incoming data channel was (by not registering to
>> handle data without an OPEN), and didn't get told what it was, I don't want
>> the data".
>>
>> Perhaps provide a few buffers to handle packet reordering.
>> But beyond that: Throw the data away.
> What if the data is ordered?  Couldn't the data you actually get
> depend on the data that got discarded?
If the data is required to be delivered in-order, it can't be delivered 
before the (in-order) OPEN packet I'm waiting for anyway, so the problem 
cannot occur.

The problem can occur if data can be sent reliably, but without ordering.

I'm willing to consider the option of saying that "throw the data away" 
means "report to the sender that this data channel closed with an 
error". It's even reasonably correct; what the sender expected to happen 
did not happen.

(The receiver will never know that a data channel was attempted. It 
never opened.)



From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Thu Apr 18 02:39:06 2013
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Hi,

I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and the
corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If not I
am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be explicit
about what should be changed.

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb

cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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Congratulations to those with accepted papers!

On Apr 16, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani <vkg@bell-labs.com> wrote:

> Folks: Salvatore Loreto, J=F6rg Ott and I are the guest editors of a
> special issue in IEEE Communications on Web-based Communications.
>=20
> The papers in this special issue have been published in the current
> IEEE Communications 15(4), April 2013.  The issue is available in
> print and through IEEE Explore.
>=20
> There were 5 papers published in the special issue.  These papers
> cover the spectrum of rtcweb from an introductory tutorial to using
> rtcweb in an enterprise.  Specifically, the following papers have been
> published:
>=20
> - "Guest editorial," Salvatore Loreto, Vijay K. Gurbani and J=F6rg Ott
> - "Real-time communications for the web," Cullen Jennings, Ted Hardie
> and Magnus Westerland.
> - "A case for SIP in JavaScript," Kundan Sing and Venkatesh =
Krishnaswamy
> - "Data channel considerations for RTCWeb," Martin Becke, Ervin P.
> Rathgeb, Sebastian Werner, Irene Rungeler, Michael Tuxen and Randall
> Stewart.
> - "On the seamless interaction between WebRTC browsers and SIP-based
> conferencing systems," Alessandro Amirante, Tobia Castaldi, Lorenzo
> Miniero and Simon Pietro Romano.
> - "Taking on WebRTC in an enterprise," Alan Johnston, John Yoakum and
> Kundan Sing.
>=20
> Happy reading.
>=20
> - vijay
> --=20
> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 09:04:01 2013
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On 18 April 2013 00:01, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> What if the data is ordered?  Couldn't the data you actually get
>> depend on the data that got discarded?
>
> If the data is required to be delivered in-order, it can't be delivered
> before the (in-order) OPEN packet I'm waiting for anyway, so the problem
> cannot occur.

Of course.

> The problem can occur if data can be sent reliably, but without ordering.
>
> I'm willing to consider the option of saying that "throw the data away"
> means "report to the sender that this data channel closed with an error".
> It's even reasonably correct; what the sender expected to happen did not
> happen.
>
> (The receiver will never know that a data channel was attempted. It never
> opened.)

In that case we'd have to reset the stream.  Maybe our SCTP experts
can advise on whether we could make that look like something other
than a normal close.

From harald@alvestrand.no  Thu Apr 18 09:51:14 2013
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On 04/18/2013 06:03 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 18 April 2013 00:01, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>>> What if the data is ordered?  Couldn't the data you actually get
>>> depend on the data that got discarded?
>> If the data is required to be delivered in-order, it can't be delivered
>> before the (in-order) OPEN packet I'm waiting for anyway, so the problem
>> cannot occur.
> Of course.
>
>> The problem can occur if data can be sent reliably, but without ordering.
>>
>> I'm willing to consider the option of saying that "throw the data away"
>> means "report to the sender that this data channel closed with an error".
>> It's even reasonably correct; what the sender expected to happen did not
>> happen.
>>
>> (The receiver will never know that a data channel was attempted. It never
>> opened.)
> In that case we'd have to reset the stream.  Maybe our SCTP experts
> can advise on whether we could make that look like something other
> than a normal close.

Yep, "reset the stream" is probably the right terminology.

Sounds good to me.


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 10:00:02 2013
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On 18 April 2013 09:51, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
> Yep, "reset the stream" is probably the right terminology.

Note that I was using a very specific terminology, not making shit up
(I know, it's hard to tell sometimes).  c.f.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6525#section-4.2

Unfortunately, the "Incoming SSN Reset Request Parameter" doesn't
include a way to signal that a particular reset is somehow different
from a normal close.  Therefore, unless you look at the SACK chunks -
which is probably not possible above the SCTP layer - you can't tell
the difference between:
 - I got your data and I'm done with this channel now
 - The OPEN message got lost for long enough that I ran out of
buffering time or space, so this channel is borked; nothing was
delivered

This is where I think that Bernard was going with this.  It's not that simple.

I really don't want to get back to the point where we require
application-level (read: browser-level) acknowledgement of OPEN
messages to address this corner case.  But we have to acknowledge that
it's a problem and deal with it somehow.  (HTTP/2.0 has an error
message that it uses for this sort of case, maybe that could be a
solution, assuming that the stream ID on the reverse path is
available.)

--Martin

From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Thu Apr 18 11:23:14 2013
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On Apr 18, 2013, at 6:51 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> On 04/18/2013 06:03 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> On 18 April 2013 00:01, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
>>>> What if the data is ordered?  Couldn't the data you actually get
>>>> depend on the data that got discarded?
>>> If the data is required to be delivered in-order, it can't be =
delivered
>>> before the (in-order) OPEN packet I'm waiting for anyway, so the =
problem
>>> cannot occur.
>> Of course.
>>=20
>>> The problem can occur if data can be sent reliably, but without =
ordering.
>>>=20
>>> I'm willing to consider the option of saying that "throw the data =
away"
>>> means "report to the sender that this data channel closed with an =
error".
>>> It's even reasonably correct; what the sender expected to happen did =
not
>>> happen.
>>>=20
>>> (The receiver will never know that a data channel was attempted. It =
never
>>> opened.)
>> In that case we'd have to reset the stream.  Maybe our SCTP experts
>> can advise on whether we could make that look like something other
>> than a normal close.
>=20
> Yep, "reset the stream" is probably the right terminology.
I think just dropping messages without any indication that something =
went wrong should
be avoided. Closing the channel by resetting the streams is an option.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> Sounds good to me.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Thu Apr 18 11:30:47 2013
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 18, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On 18 April 2013 09:51, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
>> Yep, "reset the stream" is probably the right terminology.
>=20
> Note that I was using a very specific terminology, not making shit up
> (I know, it's hard to tell sometimes).  c.f.
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6525#section-4.2
>=20
> Unfortunately, the "Incoming SSN Reset Request Parameter" doesn't
> include a way to signal that a particular reset is somehow different
> from a normal close.  Therefore, unless you look at the SACK chunks -
> which is probably not possible above the SCTP layer - you can't tell
> the difference between:
> - I got your data and I'm done with this channel now
> - The OPEN message got lost for long enough that I ran out of
> buffering time or space, so this channel is borked; nothing was
> delivered
Absolutely correct!
>=20
> This is where I think that Bernard was going with this.  It's not that =
simple.

I think you are looking for some kind of "reliable opening a =
datachannel".
That was provided by the three way handshake. But the working group =
decided
that this kind of setup is not required...
>=20
> I really don't want to get back to the point where we require
> application-level (read: browser-level) acknowledgement of OPEN
> messages to address this corner case.  But we have to acknowledge that
> it's a problem and deal with it somehow.  (HTTP/2.0 has an error
> message that it uses for this sort of case, maybe that could be a
> solution, assuming that the stream ID on the reverse path is
> available.)
I think the OPEN can only be sent if both streams (incoming / outgoing) =
are
are available. I suggested an Error message already several times. Also
for other things like reception of unsupported message types, unexpected =
messages,
message formatting issues, ... There are several error condition. I =
think
the alternative suggested was to reset the streams. However, for the =
peer there
is no way to figure out why the data channel was closed if something was =
lost.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> --Martin
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


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On Apr 18, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On 18 April 2013 09:51, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
>> Yep, "reset the stream" is probably the right terminology.
>=20
> Note that I was using a very specific terminology, not making shit up
> (I know, it's hard to tell sometimes).  c.f.
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6525#section-4.2
>=20
> Unfortunately, the "Incoming SSN Reset Request Parameter" doesn't
> include a way to signal that a particular reset is somehow different
> from a normal close.  Therefore, unless you look at the SACK chunks -
> which is probably not possible above the SCTP layer - you can't tell
> the difference between:
> - I got your data and I'm done with this channel now
> - The OPEN message got lost for long enough that I ran out of
> buffering time or space, so this channel is borked; nothing was
> delivered
What brings up a question, since I'm not really familiar with the JS =
API.

If I have a data channel dc and call close() on the data channel. Are
incoming messages still delivered, i.e. does onmessage still fire?

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> This is where I think that Bernard was going with this.  It's not that =
simple.
>=20
> I really don't want to get back to the point where we require
> application-level (read: browser-level) acknowledgement of OPEN
> messages to address this corner case.  But we have to acknowledge that
> it's a problem and deal with it somehow.  (HTTP/2.0 has an error
> message that it uses for this sort of case, maybe that could be a
> solution, assuming that the stream ID on the reverse path is
> available.)
>=20
> --Martin
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 12:35:51 2013
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On 18 April 2013 11:44, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
> What brings up a question, since I'm not really familiar with the JS API.
>
> If I have a data channel dc and call close() on the data channel. Are
> incoming messages still delivered, i.e. does onmessage still fire?

My expectation is that any pending onmessage events would be suppressed.

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 12:40:40 2013
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:40:35 -0700
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 18 April 2013 11:30, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
> I think you are looking for some kind of "reliable opening a datachannel".
> That was provided by the three way handshake. But the working group decided
> that this kind of setup is not required...

I certainly don't want this.  If you recall, I advocated for no OPEN
message at all.

> I think the OPEN can only be sent if both streams (incoming / outgoing) are
> are available.

Yes, that would at least make it possible to indicate an error (except
if the error is that an OPEN is received with no available return
stream ;)

> I suggested an Error message already several times. Also
> for other things like reception of unsupported message types, unexpected messages,
> message formatting issues, ...

Those at least are application-layer error conditions.  No need to add
anything at the OPEN/ERROR layer for those.  Applications can provide
their own feedback path for those.

> There are several error condition. I think
> the alternative suggested was to reset the streams. However, for the peer there
> is no way to figure out why the data channel was closed if something was lost.

Exactly the point: not knowing would be bad because it would make data
channels untrustworthy.  Occasionally you would lose a channel and all
the data you sent on it with no way, other than asking your peer, of
knowing what got through.

From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Fri Apr 19 06:38:45 2013
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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:38:40 +0200
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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WG,
As Individual and Editor of the WG document:

The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:

4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats

   Implementations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing
   Requirements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated
   recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile
   [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs].  Support for other audio codecs is
   OPTIONAL.

   (tbd: the mandatory to implement video codec is not yet decided)

>From this I would like to make two observations.

The first that the audio codecs draft should actually include the RTP
payload format specification for the codecs it specifies to support. I
strongly think this is the right place because if one later changes the
codec requirements then one only need to update the audio specification
rather than also RTP usage.

Secondly, that it might be best remove strong normative dependencies on
the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We can clearly include
informative references saying that the codec specification for WebRTC
will specify the RTP payload formats to use. This also reduced cross
referencing and dependencies between these specifications. Thus allowing
us to move forward with the RTP usage independent on any continued video
or audio codec discussions that may occur in the WG.

I propose that we change the first paragraph and remove the open issue
(tbd) listed after so the text instead reads:

4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats

The RTP payload formats to support depends on the media codecs that an
implementation supports for media transport in WebRTC. These includes
any codec mandated by other WebRTC codec specifications, such as the
audio codecs specified in WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
[I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio], or recommended by the RTP profile in use, see
Update to Recommended Codecs for the RTP Profile for Audio and Video
Conferences with Minimal Control (RTP/AVP)
[I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs]. Support of any additional codecs and
their RTP payload formats is OPTIONAL.


Thoughts about this?

I intended to suggest some text for the audio codec draft to improve its
specification of the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Fri Apr 19 09:41:55 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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Since we send the Open reliably, barring active attempts to game the 
system with a non-browser, the Open *will* eventually get through unless 
you have 100% (or virtually so) packet loss (and in that case, nothing 
useful, including an error response, is getting through anyways).  So I 
honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while waiting 
for the Open.

No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A 
non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever 
sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you 
against that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can 
spread it across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR 
better DOS methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> implementation supports for media transport in WebRTC. These includes

s/includes/include/

> any codec mandated by other WebRTC codec specifications, such as the
> audio codecs specified in WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
> [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio], or recommended by the RTP profile in use, see

"see" should probably begin a new sentence.

> Update to Recommended Codecs for the RTP Profile for Audio and Video
> Conferences with Minimal Control (RTP/AVP)
> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs]. Support of any additional codecs and
> their RTP payload formats is OPTIONAL.
>
>
> Thoughts about this?

This sounds reasonable to me.

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:14 2013
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
> 100% (or virtually so) packet loss

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
you are going to encounter surprising spikes.

> I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while waiting for the Open.

That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.

> No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
> non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever
> sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you against
> that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread it
> across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS
> methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.

I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
memory than you are willing to tolerate.

Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
unfortunates who encounter this problem.

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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:12:50 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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--047d7b15b295d0e7a604dabb8334
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the
question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser do
with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"

1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer forever
without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with Martin).
2. Buffer with limits, and then:
  a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, but an
OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes this.  I'm
OK with this.
  b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, but an
OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, since I don't
see a reason not to give JS the data.
  c.  Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally thinking, but
I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy with (b) instead.


Right now, it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with resetting
the stream.  In other words, if I'm a browser, I'd do something like:

function handle_data(sid, data) {
  if (is_open_message(data)) {
    var info = get_stream_info(data)
    var buffered_data = clear_buffer(sid)
    fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)
    fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)
  } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {
    fire_ondata(sid, data)
  } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {
    add_to_buffer(sid, data)
  } else {
    var buffered_data = clear_buffer(sid)
    fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)
    reset_stream(sid)
  }
}


Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understand?



On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson
<martin.thomson@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> > the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
> > 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
>
> I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
> that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
> far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
> incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
> delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
> amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
> relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
> you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
>
> > I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while
> waiting for the Open.
>
> That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
>
> > No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
> > non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever
> > sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you
> against
> > that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread it
> > across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS
> > methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>
> I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
> it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
> can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
> reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
> with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
> bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
> memory than you are willing to tolerate.
>
> Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
> unfortunates who encounter this problem.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--047d7b15b295d0e7a604dabb8334
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get =
back to the question and what options we have. =C2=A0The question: &quot;wh=
at does the browser do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregiste=
red sid)?&quot;<div>


<br></div><div>1. Buffer forever without limits: =C2=A0Randell thinks it&#3=
9;s OK to buffer forever without limits. =C2=A0Martin disagrees. =C2=A0I di=
sagree (I agree with Martin).</div><div>2. Buffer with limits, and then:</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0 a. =C2=A0Hand an error to JS saying &quot;got some data for a d=
ata channel, but an OPEN never came&quot; WITHOUT providing the data to JS:=
 Harald likes this. =C2=A0I&#39;m OK with this.</div><div>=C2=A0 b. =C2=A0H=
and an error to JS saying &quot;got some data for a data channel, but an OP=
EN never came&quot; WITH providing the data: I like this better, since I do=
n&#39;t see a reason not to give JS the data. =C2=A0</div>


<div>=C2=A0 c. =C2=A0Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally=
 thinking, but I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy wit=
h (b) instead.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, it =
seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with resetting the stream. =
=C2=A0In other words, if I&#39;m a browser, I&#39;d do something like:</div=
>


<div><br></div><div>function handle_data(sid, data) {<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
if (is_open_message(data)) {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var info =3D get_strea=
m_info(data)</div><div style>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var buffered_data =3D clear_buff=
er(sid)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)</div>

<div style>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)</div>
<div>=C2=A0 } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fir=
e_ondata(sid, data)</div><div>=C2=A0 } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add_to_buffer(sid, data)</div><div>=C2=A0 } else {</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 reset_stream(sid)</div><div>=C2=A0 }<br></div><div>}</div><div><br>=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>Are there other options I&#39;m missing or didn&#39;t u=
nderstand?</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org" target=3D"_blank">randell-ietf=
@jesup.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>



&gt; the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have<br>
&gt; 100% (or virtually so) packet loss<br>
<br>
</div>I&#39;m going to pretend you didn&#39;t say that. =C2=A0If you want t=
o talk odds,<br>
that&#39;s fine, but I think that you&#39;ll find that this sort of error i=
s<br>
far more likely than you realize. =C2=A0We&#39;re talking the probability o=
f<br>
incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being<br>
delivered. =C2=A0After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum=
<br>
amount of data is infinite. =C2=A0Though large numbers might be of<br>
relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale<br>
you are going to encounter surprising spikes.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; I honestly feel it&#39;s ok to just buffer all incoming packets while =
waiting for the Open.<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s not a warm fuzzy that I share.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open... =C2=A0=
A<br>
&gt; non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without eve=
r<br>
&gt; sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn&#39;t actually help you=
 against<br>
&gt; that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread it=
<br>
&gt; across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS<=
br>
&gt; methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.<br>
<br>
</div>I think that would be a mistake. =C2=A0This isn&#39;t about denial of=
 service,<br>
it&#39;s about genuine usage cases that encounter errors. =C2=A0The receive=
r<br>
can&#39;t use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are<br>
reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up<br>
with an unbounded amount of data. =C2=A0The amount of data will scale with<=
br>
bandwidth delay product. =C2=A0A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and<br>
memory than you are willing to tolerate.<br>
<br>
Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the<br>
unfortunates who encounter this problem.<br>
<div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7b15b295d0e7a604dabb8334--

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To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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Peter Thatcher said:=20

I like all the discussion=2C but I feel like we need to get back to the que=
stion and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser do wi=
th unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer forever=
 without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with Martin).
[BA] This seems like a bad idea.  If the receiver is expecting an OPEN then=
 it shouldn't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data to be received b=
efore getting one.  If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and pass=
es it to the  JS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was require=
d=2C this might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN=2C since recei=
vers are so tolerant about not getting it even if the application has indic=
ated it is required.   2. Buffer with limits=2C and then:=0A=
  a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel=2C but a=
n OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes this.  I'=
m OK with this.
[BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream reset)=
 limits the potential for attacks or implementation problems to affect appl=
ications.=20
  b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel=2C but a=
n OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better=2C since I d=
on't see a reason not to give JS the data. =20
[BA]  For the reasons described above=2C I think we could end up regretting=
 this option.  		 	   		  =

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<head>
<style><!--
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body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Peter Thatcher said:&nbsp=3B<br>=
<div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">I like all the discussion=2C but I feel like we n=
eed to get back to the question and what options we have. &nbsp=3BThe quest=
ion: "what does the browser do with unexpected data (before an open of an u=
nregistered sid)?"<div>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<br></div><div>1. Buffer forever without limits: &nbsp=3BRandell thinks it'=
s OK to buffer forever without limits. &nbsp=3BMartin disagrees. &nbsp=3BI =
disagree (I agree with Martin).</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] This seems li=
ke a bad idea. &nbsp=3BIf the receiver is expecting an OPEN then it shouldn=
't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data to be received before getti=
ng one. &nbsp=3BIf the receiver buffers a large amount of data and passes i=
t to the &nbsp=3BJS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was requ=
ired=2C this might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN=2C&nbsp=3B<=
span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">since receivers are so tolerant about not=
 getting it even if the application has indicated it is required. &nbsp=3B<=
/span></div><div>&nbsp=3B</div><div>2. Buffer with limits=2C and then:</div=
>=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B a. &nbsp=3BHand an error to JS saying "got some data for a da=
ta channel=2C but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Har=
ald likes this. &nbsp=3BI'm OK with this.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] One=
 desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream reset) limits =
the potential for attacks or implementation problems to affect applications=
.&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp=3B b. &nbsp=3BHand an error to JS =
saying "got some data for a data channel=2C but an OPEN never came" WITH pr=
oviding the data: I like this better=2C since I don't see a reason not to g=
ive JS the data. &nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] &nbsp=3BFor the rea=
sons described above=2C I think we could end up regretting this option.&nbs=
p=3B</div></div></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_cc6913b3-c323-4d3b-b392-b69e1a79dd68_--

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:42:19 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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Magnus said:=20

> The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:
>=20
> 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>=20
>    Implementations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing
>    Requirements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated
>    recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile
>    [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs].  Support for other audio codecs is
>    OPTIONAL.
>=20
>    (tbd: the mandatory to implement video codec is not yet decided)
>=20
> From this I would like to make two observations.
>=20
> The first that the audio codecs draft should actually include the RTP
> payload format specification for the codecs it specifies to support. I
> strongly think this is the right place because if one later changes the
> codec requirements then one only need to update the audio specification
> rather than also RTP usage.
[BA] I agree with this.=20
> Secondly=2C that it might be best remove strong normative dependencies on
> the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We can clearly include
> informative references saying that the codec specification for WebRTC
> will specify the RTP payload formats to use. This also reduced cross
> referencing and dependencies between these specifications. Thus allowing
> us to move forward with the RTP usage independent on any continued video
> or audio codec discussions that may occur in the WG.>>> Thoughts about th=
is?
>=20
> I intended to suggest some text for the audio codec draft to improve its
> specification of the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.
[BA] While I think this makes sense and I sympathize with the goal=2C in pr=
actice truly making the RTP usage doc codec-independent could turn out to b=
e more difficult than it first appears.  One thing I have been noticing is =
that the approach to congestion control as well as loss recovery strategies=
 (e.g. retransmission vs. FEC=2C adapting resolution/framerate via SDP vs. =
RTCP=2C use of AVPF feedback messages=2C etc.) may differ markedly between =
implementations of VP8 and H.264.  This raises the nasty possibility that e=
ven if the MTI codec disagreements were to be resolved (or if browsers were=
 to support codec extensibility) that we'd still be with saddled with persi=
stent video interoperability problems. =20

 		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Magnus said:&nbsp=3B<br><br><div=
>&gt=3B The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:<br>&gt=3B <br>=
&gt=3B 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B    Implemen=
tations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing<br>&gt=3B    Requ=
irements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated<br>&gt=3B   =
 recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile<br>&gt=3B    [I-D.=
ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs].  Support for other audio codecs is<br>&gt=3B    O=
PTIONAL.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B    (tbd: the mandatory to implement video cod=
ec is not yet decided)<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B From this I would like to make =
two observations.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B The first that the audio codecs draf=
t should actually include the RTP<br>&gt=3B payload format specification fo=
r the codecs it specifies to support. I<br>&gt=3B strongly think this is th=
e right place because if one later changes the<br>&gt=3B codec requirements=
 then one only need to update the audio specification<br>&gt=3B rather than=
 also RTP usage.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] I agree with this.&nbsp=3B</=
div><div><br>&gt=3B Secondly=2C that it might be best remove strong normati=
ve dependencies on<br>&gt=3B the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We =
can clearly include<br>&gt=3B informative references saying that the codec =
specification for WebRTC<br>&gt=3B will specify the RTP payload formats to =
use. This also reduced cross<br>&gt=3B referencing and dependencies between=
 these specifications. Thus allowing<br>&gt=3B us to move forward with the =
RTP usage independent on any continued video<br>&gt=3B or audio codec discu=
ssions that may occur in the WG.</div><div>&gt=3B</div><div>&gt=3B</div><di=
v>&gt=3B Thoughts about this?<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B I intended to suggest so=
me text for the audio codec draft to improve its<br>&gt=3B specification of=
 the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.</div><div><br></div><div>[B=
A] While I think this makes sense and I sympathize with the goal=2C in prac=
tice truly making the RTP usage doc codec-independent could turn out to be =
more difficult than it first appears. &nbsp=3BOne thing I have been noticin=
g is that the approach to congestion control as well as loss recovery strat=
egies (e.g. retransmission vs. FEC=2C adapting resolution/framerate via SDP=
 vs. RTCP=2C use of AVPF feedback messages=2C etc.) may differ markedly bet=
ween implementations of VP8 and H.264. &nbsp=3BThis raises the nasty possib=
ility that even if the MTI codec disagreements were to be resolved (or if b=
rowsers were to support codec extensibility) that we'd still be with saddle=
d with persistent video interoperability problems. &nbsp=3B<br><br></div> 	=
	 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Minutes for the Data Channel Presentations
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Magnus said:=20

> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and the
> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If not I
> am happy to introduce additional clarifications=2C but please be explicit
> about what should be changed.
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
>=20


Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal(draft=ADje=
sup=ADrtcweb=ADdata=ADprotocol=AD04)  is great.
[BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentation su=
ggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP=2C which isn'=
t covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channelnego=
tiation out of the document.=20
[BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up data chann=
els this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps referring to getting=
 data channel negotiation "out of SDP"? =20



 		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Magnus said:&nbsp=3B<br><div><br=
>&gt=3B I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and th=
e<br>&gt=3B corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. I=
f not I<br>&gt=3B am happy to introduce additional clarifications=2C but pl=
ease be explicit<br>&gt=3B about what should be changed.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=
=3B http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb<br>&gt=3B =
<br><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Peter Thatcher commented that he thi=
nks the presenter's proposal</div><div>(draft=ADjesup=ADrtcweb=ADdata=ADpro=
tocol=AD04) &nbsp=3Bis great.</div></div><div><br></div><div>[BA] My impres=
sion was that this remark more related to the presentation suggestions rela=
ting to removing of stream negotiation from SDP=2C which isn't covered in d=
raft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Harald Al=
vestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channel</div><div>ne=
gotiation out of the document.&nbsp=3B</div></div><div><br></div><div>[BA] =
&nbsp=3BSince draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up data cha=
nnels this doesn't make sense to me. &nbsp=3BWas Harald perhaps referring t=
o getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"? &nbsp=3B</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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Subject: [rtcweb] #14: Section 4.4: Multiplexing of RTP session over a single UDP flow
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#14: Section 4.4: Multiplexing of RTP session over a single UDP flow

 Support for multiple RTP sessions over a single UDP flow as defined
    by [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing] is RECOMMENDED/
    OPTIONAL.  If multiple RTP sessions are to be multiplexed onto a
    single UDP flow, this MUST be negotiated during the signalling phase.

       (tbd: No consensus on the level of support of Multiple RTP
       sessions over a single UDP flow.)

    Further discussion about when different RTP session structures and
    multiplexing methods are suitable can be found in the memo on
    Guidelines for using the Multiplexing Features of RTP
    [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-multiplex-architecture].

 [BA] I would suggest that both of these paragraphs be removed. Leaving a
 normative references to an individual submission that seems unlikely to be
 advanced to WG work item status soon could delay the document.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/14>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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#15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling

 4.8.  Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (SSRC)

    Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP SSRC values,
    using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Sections 4.1 and 5 of
    [RFC5576], and MUST also support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute
    defined in Section 6.2 of [RFC5576].  Other attributes defined in
    [RFC5576] MAY be supported.

    Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL.  Implementations MUST
    support random SSRC assignment, and MUST support SSRC collision
    detection and resolution, both according to [RFC3550].

 [BA] I think you need to be more specific here.  Does this mean that an
 implementation needs to be able to render an SSRC that isn't declared in
 an a=ssrc: attribute?  Personally, I'd suggest that this is useful because
 WebRTC gateways may not know what SSRCs to expect so they can't signal
 them.  Also, it enables operation in RTP topologies (like an RTP
 translator).  However, keep in mind that implicit SSRCs aren't something
 the current WEBRTC API supports.

 Also, if you're going to require support for a=ssrc: attributes, there
 will be other attributes that will come along with that.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/15>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #16: Section 5.1.6
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#16: Section 5.1.6

 WebRTC senders
    are REQUIRED to implement support for TMMBR messages, and MUST follow
    bandwidth limitations set by a TMMBR message received for their SSRC.
    The sending of TMMBR requests is OPTIONAL.

 [BA] I realize I'm opening a can of worms here, but what does it mean to
 "follow bandwidth limitations set by a TMMBR message"?  Is this mandating
 support for a receiver-side congestion control mechanism? Or is it
 considered more like advice from the receiver on average bandwidth
 availability over some time period (e.g. averaged over I and P frames)?
 Or is this a maximum simultaneous bw limitation?

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/16>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #17: Section 6.1: Support for NACK
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#17: Section 6.1: Support for NACK

 Senders are REQUIRED to understand the Generic NACK message defined
    in Section 6.2.1 of [RFC4585], but MAY choose to ignore this feedback
    (following Section 4.2 of [RFC4585]).

 [BA] What does it mean to "understand" the generic NACK message? Are we
 only asking that an implementation not crash if it receives such a
 message?  Or does this mean that support for NACK needs to be declared in
 "rtcp-fb" attributes? If an implementation can "understand" NACK, and
 declare support in SDP but then ignore the feedback, what does this
 achieve?

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/17>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#18: Section 6.2: FEC

 At the time
    of this writing there is no consensus on which, if any, of these FEC
    schemes is appropriate for use in the WebRTC context.  Accordingly,
    this memo makes no recommendation on the choice of block-based FEC
    for WebRTC use.

 [BA] By being vague on both NACK as well as FEC requirements, I think
 we've set ourselves up for issues with respect to implementation quality
 if not interoperability.  In practice, it may be possible to come up with
 some advice to FEC implementers (perhaps not at a REQUIRED but a
 RECOMMENDED level).  So I think we might want to revisit this.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/18>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #19: Section 7.2: Congestion Control Extensions
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#19: Section 7.2: Congestion Control Extensions

 7.2.  RTCP Extensions for Congestion Control

    As described in Section 5.1.6, the Temporary Maximum Media Stream Bit
    Rate (TMMBR) request is supported by WebRTC senders.  This request
    can be used by a media receiver to impose limitations on the media
    sender based on the receiver's determined bit-rate limitations, to
    provide a limited means of congestion control.

    (tbd: What other RTP/RTCP extensions are needed?)

    As described in Section 5.1.6, the Temporary Maximum Media Stream Bit
    Rate (TMMBR) request is supported by WebRTC senders.  This request
    can be used by a media receiver to impose limitations on the media
    sender based on the receiver's determined bit-rate limitations, to
    provide a limited means of congestion control.

    (tbd: What other RTP/RTCP extensions are needed?)

    With proprietary congestion control algorithms issues can arise when
    different algorithms and implementations interact in a communication
    session.  If the different implementations have made different
    choices in regards to the type of adaptation, for example one sender
    based, and one receiver based, then one could end up in situation
    where one direction is dual controlled, when the other direction is
    not controlled.

    (tbd: How to ensure that both paths and sender and receiver based
    solutions can interact)

 [BA] Some nasty unresolved issues here. In particular, I am concerned
 about potential gaps in worldview between sender-side and receiver-side
 congestion control implementations.  Is our goal here to guarantee that a
 sender-side implementation can interoperate with a receiver-side
 implementation? Or that a sender-side implementation has the information
 it needs?

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/19>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#20: Section 12.2: Multiple Sources

 12.2.  Multiple Sources

    A WebRTC end-point might have multiple cameras, microphones or audio
    inputs and thus a single end-point can source multiple RTP media
    streams of the same media type concurrently.  Even if an end-point
    does not have multiple media sources of the same media type it has to
    support transmission using multiple SSRCs concurrently in the same
    RTP session.  This is due to the requirement on an WebRTC end-point
    to support multiple media types in one RTP session.  For example, one
    audio and one video source can result in the end-point sending with
    two different SSRCs in the same RTP session.  As multi-party
    conferences are supported, as discussed below in Section 12.3, a
    WebRTC end-point will need to be capable of receiving, decoding and
    play out multiple RTP media streams of the same type concurrently.

    tbd: Are any mechanism needed to signal limitations in the number of
    active SSRC that an end-point can handle?

 [BA] There are some additional nasty problems that come up here in the
 case where there are multiple sources that are each utilizing
 simulcast/layered coding. Among other things, there needs to be a way in
 RTP (not just SDP) to make it clear how the RTP streams relate. For
 example, imagine a mixer that is receiving simulcast/layered coding from
 multiple sources.  What set of SSRCs issue from that mixer, and what is
 contained in the SDES packet that lets a receiver know that the multiple
 SSRCs represent layered coding from a single source? I presume the SRCNAME
 document was one attempt at handling this problem, but since that didn't
 become a WG work item, we're still left with an unfilled need.  And no,
 this isn't handled in any of the GRUMBLE/FUMBLE/MUMBLE proposals.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/20>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb] More elbow grease on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, please
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I just re-read draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06.  Unfortunately there are eno=
ugh open issues left in this document to drive a convoy of trucks through=
=2C and a number of those issues have been open for *years* (e.g. some of t=
hese relate to problems that were recognized years before WebRTC came on th=
e scene=2C but are still open=2C like simulcast/layered coding). =20
Depressing to realize that even if the MTI video codec issues were to be re=
solved=2C we might *still* have interop headaches=2C but that's where I thi=
nk we are. =20

 		 	   		  =

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<head>
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.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
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body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
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--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>I just re-read draft-ietf-rtcweb=
-rtp-usage-06. &nbsp=3BUnfortunately there are enough open issues left in t=
his document to drive a convoy of trucks through=2C and a number of those i=
ssues have been open for *years* (e.g. some of these relate to problems tha=
t were recognized years before WebRTC came on the scene=2C but are still op=
en=2C like simulcast/layered coding). &nbsp=3B<div><br></div><div>Depressin=
g to realize that even if the MTI video codec issues were to be resolved=2C=
 we might *still* have interop headaches=2C but that's where I think we are=
. &nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div><br></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_4a00f92c-955d-4506-bba9-bf61ec0be71a_--

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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/19/2013 8:32 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Peter Thatcher said:
>
> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the 
> question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the 
> browser do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
>
> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer 
> forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with 
> Martin).
>
> [BA] This seems like a bad idea.  If the receiver is expecting an OPEN 
> then it shouldn't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data to be 
> received before getting one.

This case only applies in an un-ordered channel I believe, if we send 
the Open as reliable-in-order.  Ordered data must be delivered in-order 
(!), so the Open must be delivered before any following ordered data.  
(This is why I said the Open *should* be sent in-order; it removes the 
need to buffer in an ordered channel.)

>  If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and passes it to the 
>  JS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was required, this 
> might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN, since receivers 
> are so tolerant about not getting it even if the application has 
> indicated it is required.

Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered 
early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be a 
data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out of 
WiFi/cell coverage, and hasn't picked up the new one yet (going through 
a tunnel, dead spot in the building, walk down to the basement, etc).

I would far rather the transaction 'freeze' and resume when a new 
connection is picked up (and ICE restart brings the connections alive 
again), than to have an arbitrary timer cause my app/game/etc to fail in 
a very very hard-to-test way.  In practical terms, it would be Very hard 
for significant data to end up buffered.  The application can deal with 
timeouts of the entire connection; I don't want to drop the data if the 
app has decided to stay in suspension waiting for a connection to 
resume.  After all, what is gained by dropping the data?  Don't say 
"knowledge that the channel failed to open" or "the connection is 
borked" - this isn't a good way to find out about total connection loss, 
and given we don't have timeouts on opens, I see no reason to insert 
them in an edge case for open for no useful reason.  If you want opens 
to timeout, that should be part of how Open works (partial-reliable with 
a max time), not indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this.

> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, 
> but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes 
> this.  I'm OK with this.
>
> [BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream 
> reset) limits the potential for attacks or implementation problems to 
> affect applications.

Painful for implementers to test, and virtually impossible for 
application authors to test, even if they realize it's a possibility.

>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, 
> but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, 
> since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data.
>
> [BA]  For the reasons described above, I think we could end up 
> regretting this option.

I agree, though for different reasons than Bernard.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/19/2013 8:32 PM, Bernard Aboba
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
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      <div dir="ltr">Peter Thatcher said:&nbsp;<br>
        <div><br>
          <div dir="ltr">I like all the discussion, but I feel like we
            need to get back to the question and what options we have.
            &nbsp;The question: "what does the browser do with unexpected
            data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
            <div>
              <br>
            </div>
            <div>1. Buffer forever without limits: &nbsp;Randell thinks it's
              OK to buffer forever without limits. &nbsp;Martin disagrees. &nbsp;I
              disagree (I agree with Martin).</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[BA] This seems like a bad idea. &nbsp;If the receiver is
              expecting an OPEN then it shouldn't allow an unlimited
              amount of (ordered!) data to be received before getting
              one.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    This case only applies in an un-ordered channel I believe, if we
    send the Open as reliable-in-order.&nbsp; Ordered data must be delivered
    in-order (!), so the Open must be delivered before any following
    ordered data.&nbsp; (This is why I said the Open *should* be sent
    in-order; it removes the need to buffer in an ordered channel.)<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div> &nbsp;If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and
              passes it to the &nbsp;JS even if the application indicated
              that an OPEN was required, this might encourage
              implementations to bypass the OPEN,&nbsp;<span
                style="font-size: 12pt;">since receivers are so tolerant
                about not getting it even if the application has
                indicated it is required.&nbsp; <br>
              </span></div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered
    early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.&nbsp; My example for this would be
    a data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out
    of WiFi/cell coverage, and hasn't picked up the new one yet (going
    through a tunnel, dead spot in the building, walk down to the
    basement, etc).&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    I would far rather the transaction 'freeze' and resume when a new
    connection is picked up (and ICE restart brings the connections
    alive again), than to have an arbitrary timer cause my app/game/etc
    to fail in a very very hard-to-test way.&nbsp; In practical terms, it
    would be Very hard for significant data to end up buffered.&nbsp; The
    application can deal with timeouts of the entire connection; I don't
    want to drop the data if the app has decided to stay in suspension
    waiting for a connection to resume.&nbsp; After all, what is gained by
    dropping the data?&nbsp; Don't say "knowledge that the channel failed to
    open" or "the connection is borked" - this isn't a good way to find
    out about total connection loss, and given we don't have timeouts on
    opens, I see no reason to insert them in an edge case for open for
    no useful reason.&nbsp; If you want opens to timeout, that should be part
    of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time), not
    indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div>&nbsp;</div>
            <div>2. Buffer with limits, and then:</div>
            <div>&nbsp; a. &nbsp;Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a
              data channel, but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing
              the data to JS: Harald likes this. &nbsp;I'm OK with this.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined
              with a stream reset) limits the potential for attacks or
              implementation problems to affect applications. <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Painful for implementers to test, and virtually impossible for
    application authors to test, even if they realize it's a
    possibility.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div>&nbsp; b. &nbsp;Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a
              data channel, but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the
              data: I like this better, since I don't see a reason not
              to give JS the data. &nbsp;</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[BA] &nbsp;For the reasons described above, I think we could
              end up regretting this option.&nbsp;</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I agree, though for different reasons than Bernard.<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Randell Jesup
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org">randell-ietf@jesup.org</a></pre>
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Randell said:
=0A=
    "Well=2C if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered=
=0A=
    early data=2C I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be=
=0A=
    a data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out=0A=
    of WiFi/cell coverage... If you want opens to timeout=2C that should be=
 part    of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time)=2C not    ind=
irectly-in-some-edge-cases like this." [BA] I agree that it makes sense to =
be explicit about the transport properties desired for OPEN. There is a tra=
deoff between a timeout/size-out of unordered early data and the amount of =
"reliability" that the OPEN will really have.    For example=2C if the time=
out is more than one and less than 3 RTOinitial=2C then you are effectively=
 only allowing for the OPEN to be retransmitted once=3B between 3 and 7 RTO=
initial=2C twice=3B between 7 and 15 RTOinitial=2C three times=2C etc.  In =
terms of buffering=2C there are similar implications.  The amount of buffer=
 allocated will determine how many times the OPEN can be retransmitted (or =
the amount of time that the endpoint can be out of coverage in the case you=
 gave).  To be resilient=2C I wouldn't recommend a max time of less than 15=
 seconds=2C and one could argue for 30 seconds or more (e.g. the potential =
effect of routing transients).    		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Randell said:<BR><br>=0A=
    "Well=2C if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered=
=0A=
    early data=2C I wouldn't do so quickly.&nbsp=3B My example for this wou=
ld be=0A=
    a data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out=0A=
    of WiFi/cell coverage... If you want opens to timeout=2C that should be=
 part    of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time)=2C not    ind=
irectly-in-some-edge-cases like this."<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>[BA] I agree that it =
makes sense to be explicit about the transport properties desired for OPEN.=
 There is a tradeoff between a timeout/size-out of unordered early data and=
 the amount of "reliability" that the OPEN will really have.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B For example=2C if the timeout is&nbsp=3Bmore than&nbsp=3Bone an=
d less than&nbsp=3B3 RTOinitial=2C then you are effectively only allowing f=
or the OPEN to be retransmitted once=3B between 3 and 7 RTOinitial=2C twice=
=3B between 7 and 15 RTOinitial=2C three times=2C&nbsp=3Betc.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3BIn terms of buffering=2C there are similar implications.&nbsp=3B The amo=
unt of buffer&nbsp=3Ballocated will determine how many times the OPEN can b=
e retransmitted (or the amount of time that the endpoint can be out of cove=
rage in the case you gave).&nbsp=3B To be resilient=2C I wouldn't recommend=
 a&nbsp=3Bmax time&nbsp=3Bof less than 15 seconds=2C and one could argue fo=
r 30 seconds or more (e.g. the potential effect of routing transients). <BR=
>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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(retransmitted to fix a cut-and-paste error).  Randell said:

=0A=
    "Well=2C if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered=
=0A=
    early data=2C I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be=
=0A=
    a data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out=0A=
    of WiFi/cell coverage... If you want opens to timeout=2C that should be=
 part    of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time)=2C not    ind=
irectly-in-some-edge-cases like this."
=20
[BA] I agree that it makes sense to be explicit about the transport propert=
ies desired for OPEN. There is a tradeoff between a timeout/size-out of uno=
rdered early data and the amount of "reliability" that the OPEN will really=
 have.    For example=2C if the timeout is more than one and less than 3 RT=
Oinitial=2C then you are effectively only allowing for the OPEN to be retra=
nsmitted once=3B between 3 and 7 RTOinitial=2C twice=3B between 7 and 15 RT=
Oinitial=2C three times=2C etc.  The timeout also limits the amount of time=
 that the endpoint can be out of coverage in the case you gave. In terms of=
 buffering=2C there are similar implications.  The amount of buffer allocat=
ed will determine how many times the OPEN can be retransmitted.  To be resi=
lient=2C I wouldn't recommend a max time of less than 15 seconds=2C and one=
 could argue for 30 seconds or more (e.g. the potential effect of routing t=
ransients).  		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'><style><!--=0A=
.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {=0A=
padding:0px=3B=0A=
}=0A=
=0A=
.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {=0A=
font-size:12pt=3B=0A=
font-family:Calibri=3B=0A=
}=0A=
=0A=
--></style>(retransmitted to fix a cut-and-paste error). <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Ra=
ndell said:<br><br>=0A=
    "Well=2C if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered=
=0A=
    early data=2C I wouldn't do so quickly.&nbsp=3B My example for this wou=
ld be=0A=
    a data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out=0A=
    of WiFi/cell coverage... If you want opens to timeout=2C that should be=
 part    of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time)=2C not    ind=
irectly-in-some-edge-cases like this."<br>&nbsp=3B<br>[BA] I agree that it =
makes sense to be explicit about the transport properties desired for OPEN.=
 There is a tradeoff between a timeout/size-out of unordered early data and=
 the amount of "reliability" that the OPEN will really have.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B For example=2C if the timeout is&nbsp=3Bmore than&nbsp=3Bone an=
d less than&nbsp=3B3 RTOinitial=2C then you are effectively only allowing f=
or the OPEN to be retransmitted once=3B between 3 and 7 RTOinitial=2C twice=
=3B between 7 and 15 RTOinitial=2C three times=2C&nbsp=3Betc.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3BThe timeout also limits&nbsp=3Bthe amount of time that the endpoint can =
be out of coverage in the case you gave.&nbsp=3BIn terms of buffering=2C th=
ere are similar implications.&nbsp=3B The amount of buffer&nbsp=3Ballocated=
 will determine how many times the OPEN can be retransmitted.&nbsp=3B To be=
 resilient=2C I wouldn't recommend a&nbsp=3Bmax time&nbsp=3Bof less than 15=
 seconds=2C and one could argue for 30 seconds or more (e.g. the potential =
effect of routing transients).&nbsp=3B<BR> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_9a1c26be-c03f-46c7-93bf-6fc3e22e5d84_--

From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Sat Apr 20 12:34:43 2013
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 18, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On 18 April 2013 11:44, Michael Tuexen =
<Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
>> What brings up a question, since I'm not really familiar with the JS =
API.
>>=20
>> If I have a data channel dc and call close() on the data channel. Are
>> incoming messages still delivered, i.e. does onmessage still fire?
>=20
> My expectation is that any pending onmessage events would be =
suppressed.
>=20
And how do you close a datachannel without message loss?
I would prefer that if a reliable data channel gets set up, data gets
transferred and it is closed without any error indication, there is
no message loss.
I think this requires that onmessage fires in the CLOSING state.

Best regards
Michael=20



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To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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On Apr 19, 2013, at 6:39 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:

> Since we send the Open reliably, barring active attempts to game the =
system with a non-browser, the Open *will* eventually get through unless =
you have 100% (or virtually so) packet loss (and in that case, nothing =
useful, including an error response, is getting through anyways).  So I =
honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while waiting =
for the Open.
I'm not sure what you want to protect against:
1. Network conditions resulting in loss of the OPEN_REQ
2. The peer attacking you and violating the protocol spec.

If you consider 1., SCTP will get the message through or fail the SCTP =
association eventually.
In the BSD stack we even limit the number of retransmissions of a =
particular chunk. If that
number is reached, the association is failed. We used this to protect =
against buggy peers
or path MTU problems.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A =
non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever =
sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you =
against that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can =
spread it across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR =
better DOS methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>=20
> --=20
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Sat Apr 20 12:41:59 2013
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
>> the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
>> 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
>=20
> I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
> that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
> far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
> incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
> delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
> amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
> relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
> you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
>=20
>> I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while =
waiting for the Open.
>=20
> That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
>=20
>> No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
>> non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without =
ever
>> sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you =
against
>> that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread =
it
>> across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS
>> methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>=20
> I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
> it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
> can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
> reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
> with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
> bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
> memory than you are willing to tolerate.
If you are thinking about a sender violating the spec, then you are =
right.
If the sender is following the spec, then SCTP will get the OPEN_REQ =
through.
The amount of data is limited by the send buffer size, since all data =
sent
after the OPEN_REQ is only SACKed and needs to be buffered (unless you =
use
NR_SACKs).

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
> unfortunates who encounter this problem.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Sat Apr 20 12:45:56 2013
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:32 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> Peter Thatcher said:=20
>=20
> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the =
question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser =
do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
>=20
> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer =
forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with =
Martin).
>=20
> [BA] This seems like a bad idea.  If the receiver is expecting an OPEN =
then it shouldn't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data to be =
received before getting one.  If the receiver buffers a large amount of =
data and passes it=20
If the peer is sending ordered data and the first received message is =
not an OPEN, this is a violation
of the spec and I would terminate the SCTP association.
> to the  JS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was =
required, this might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN, since =
receivers are so tolerant about not getting it even if the application =
has indicated it is required. =20
> =20
> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes =
this.  I'm OK with this.
>=20
> [BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream =
reset) limits the potential for attacks or implementation problems to =
affect applications.=20
>=20
>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, =
since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data. =20
>=20
> [BA]  For the reasons described above, I think we could end up =
regretting this option.=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Sat Apr 20 12:48:51 2013
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, , <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, , <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, , <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, , <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, , <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, , <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, , <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, , <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, , <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, , <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, , <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, , <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, , <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, , <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, , <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com>, <BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@p hx.gbl>, , <5172091A.5040205@jesup.org>, <BLU 169-W553 251969AB9261A1083D593C90@phx.gbl> <BLU169-W125B5C90F48C0FC1D78CF7B93C90@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 20, 2013, at 7:24 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> (retransmitted to fix a cut-and-paste error).=20
> =20
> Randell said:
>=20
> "Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered =
early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be a =
data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out of =
WiFi/cell coverage... If you want opens to timeout, that should be part =
of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time), not =
indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this."
> =20
> [BA] I agree that it makes sense to be explicit about the transport =
properties desired for OPEN. There is a tradeoff between a =
timeout/size-out of unordered early data and the amount of "reliability" =
that the OPEN will really have.    For example, if the timeout is more =
than one and less than 3 RTOinitial, then you are effectively only =
allowing for the OPEN to be retransmitted once; between 3 and 7 =
RTOinitial, twice; between 7 and 15 RTOinitial, three times, etc.  The =
timeout also limits the amount of time that the endpoint can be out of =
coverage in the case you gave. In terms of buffering, there are similar =
implications.  The amount of buffer allocated will determine how many =
times the OPEN can be retransmitted.  To be resilient, I wouldn't =
recommend a max time of less than 15 seconds, and one could argue for 30 =
seconds or more (e.g. the potential effect of routing transients).=20
SCTP provides already mechanisms to determine that the connectivity os =
lost and the SCTP
association is terminated. The parameter to control this is the number =
of consecutive timer-based
retransmissions. Why not just make use of these mechanisms.

Best regards
Michael
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From harald@alvestrand.no  Sat Apr 20 17:34:51 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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I may be too simple-minded, but why isn't the correct reference to 
codecs in "RTP usage" a simple note saying

"Mandatory to implement codecs for RTCWEB are not specified in this memo."

or even less than that:

""

?

I simply don't see why it should need to be mentioned in this document.

On 04/19/2013 03:38 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> WG,
> As Individual and Editor of the WG document:
>
> The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:
>
> 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>
>     Implementations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing
>     Requirements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated
>     recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile
>     [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs].  Support for other audio codecs is
>     OPTIONAL.
>
>     (tbd: the mandatory to implement video codec is not yet decided)
>
>  From this I would like to make two observations.
>
> The first that the audio codecs draft should actually include the RTP
> payload format specification for the codecs it specifies to support. I
> strongly think this is the right place because if one later changes the
> codec requirements then one only need to update the audio specification
> rather than also RTP usage.
>
> Secondly, that it might be best remove strong normative dependencies on
> the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We can clearly include
> informative references saying that the codec specification for WebRTC
> will specify the RTP payload formats to use. This also reduced cross
> referencing and dependencies between these specifications. Thus allowing
> us to move forward with the RTP usage independent on any continued video
> or audio codec discussions that may occur in the WG.
>
> I propose that we change the first paragraph and remove the open issue
> (tbd) listed after so the text instead reads:
>
> 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>
> The RTP payload formats to support depends on the media codecs that an
> implementation supports for media transport in WebRTC. These includes
> any codec mandated by other WebRTC codec specifications, such as the
> audio codecs specified in WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
> [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio], or recommended by the RTP profile in use, see
> Update to Recommended Codecs for the RTP Profile for Audio and Video
> Conferences with Minimal Control (RTP/AVP)
> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs]. Support of any additional codecs and
> their RTP payload formats is OPTIONAL.
>
>
> Thoughts about this?
>
> I intended to suggest some text for the audio codec draft to improve its
> specification of the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From harald@alvestrand.no  Sat Apr 20 17:35:02 2013
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl> <5172091A.5040205@jesup .org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 04/20/2013 05:18 AM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/19/2013 8:32 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>> Peter Thatcher said:
>>
>> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the 
>> question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the 
>> browser do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered 
>> sid)?"
>>
>> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer 
>> forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with 
>> Martin).
>>
>> [BA] This seems like a bad idea.  If the receiver is expecting an 
>> OPEN then it shouldn't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data 
>> to be received before getting one.
>
> This case only applies in an un-ordered channel I believe, if we send 
> the Open as reliable-in-order.  Ordered data must be delivered 
> in-order (!), so the Open must be delivered before any following 
> ordered data.  (This is why I said the Open *should* be sent in-order; 
> it removes the need to buffer in an ordered channel.)
>
>>  If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and passes it to the 
>>  JS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was required, this 
>> might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN, since receivers 
>> are so tolerant about not getting it even if the application has 
>> indicated it is required.
>
> Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered 
> early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be a 
> data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out of 
> WiFi/cell coverage, and hasn't picked up the new one yet (going 
> through a tunnel, dead spot in the building, walk down to the 
> basement, etc).
>
> I would far rather the transaction 'freeze' and resume when a new 
> connection is picked up (and ICE restart brings the connections alive 
> again), than to have an arbitrary timer cause my app/game/etc to fail 
> in a very very hard-to-test way.  In practical terms, it would be Very 
> hard for significant data to end up buffered.

File transfer protocol: OPEN, send data unordered with in-band file 
block positions, close.
If the OPEN packet gets lost, data will accumulate mighty fast.

>   The application can deal with timeouts of the entire connection; I 
> don't want to drop the data if the app has decided to stay in 
> suspension waiting for a connection to resume.  After all, what is 
> gained by dropping the data?  Don't say "knowledge that the channel 
> failed to open" or "the connection is borked" - this isn't a good way 
> to find out about total connection loss, and given we don't have 
> timeouts on opens, I see no reason to insert them in an edge case for 
> open for no useful reason.  If you want opens to timeout, that should 
> be part of how Open works (partial-reliable with a max time), not 
> indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this.

Partial-reliable with max time for Open might be a very good idea.
>
>> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, 
>> but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald 
>> likes this.  I'm OK with this.
>>
>> [BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream 
>> reset) limits the potential for attacks or implementation problems to 
>> affect applications.
>
> Painful for implementers to test, and virtually impossible for 
> application authors to test, even if they realize it's a possibility.

Hmm. I wonder if this is really very easy to test: Tell the sending app 
you're not going to use OPEN, and tell the receiving app you're going to 
use OPEN. Send data.


>
>>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, 
>> but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, 
>> since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data.
>>
>> [BA]  For the reasons described above, I think we could end up 
>> regretting this option.
>
> I agree, though for different reasons than Bernard.
>
> -- 
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/20/2013 05:18 AM, Randell Jesup
      wrote:<br>
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      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/19/2013 8:32 PM, Bernard Aboba
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--></style>
        <div dir="ltr">Peter Thatcher said:&nbsp;<br>
          <div><br>
            <div dir="ltr">I like all the discussion, but I feel like we
              need to get back to the question and what options we have.
              &nbsp;The question: "what does the browser do with unexpected
              data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
              <div> <br>
              </div>
              <div>1. Buffer forever without limits: &nbsp;Randell thinks
                it's OK to buffer forever without limits. &nbsp;Martin
                disagrees. &nbsp;I disagree (I agree with Martin).</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>[BA] This seems like a bad idea. &nbsp;If the receiver is
                expecting an OPEN then it shouldn't allow an unlimited
                amount of (ordered!) data to be received before getting
                one.</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      This case only applies in an un-ordered channel I believe, if we
      send the Open as reliable-in-order.&nbsp; Ordered data must be
      delivered in-order (!), so the Open must be delivered before any
      following ordered data.&nbsp; (This is why I said the Open *should* be
      sent in-order; it removes the need to buffer in an ordered
      channel.)<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
        type="cite">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div> &nbsp;If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and
                passes it to the &nbsp;JS even if the application indicated
                that an OPEN was required, this might encourage
                implementations to bypass the OPEN,&nbsp;<span
                  style="font-size: 12pt;">since receivers are so
                  tolerant about not getting it even if the application
                  has indicated it is required.&nbsp; <br>
                </span></div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of
      unordered early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.&nbsp; My example for
      this would be a data-only application opening an channel just as
      it's fading out of WiFi/cell coverage, and hasn't picked up the
      new one yet (going through a tunnel, dead spot in the building,
      walk down to the basement, etc).&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      I would far rather the transaction 'freeze' and resume when a new
      connection is picked up (and ICE restart brings the connections
      alive again), than to have an arbitrary timer cause my
      app/game/etc to fail in a very very hard-to-test way.&nbsp; In
      practical terms, it would be Very hard for significant data to end
      up buffered.</blockquote>
    <br>
    File transfer protocol: OPEN, send data unordered with in-band file
    block positions, close.<br>
    If the OPEN packet gets lost, data will accumulate mighty fast.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5172091A.5040205@jesup.org" type="cite">&nbsp; The
      application can deal with timeouts of the entire connection; I
      don't want to drop the data if the app has decided to stay in
      suspension waiting for a connection to resume.&nbsp; After all, what is
      gained by dropping the data?&nbsp; Don't say "knowledge that the
      channel failed to open" or "the connection is borked" - this isn't
      a good way to find out about total connection loss, and given we
      don't have timeouts on opens, I see no reason to insert them in an
      edge case for open for no useful reason.&nbsp; If you want opens to
      timeout, that should be part of how Open works (partial-reliable
      with a max time), not indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Partial-reliable with max time for Open might be a very good idea.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5172091A.5040205@jesup.org" type="cite"> <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
        type="cite">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div>&nbsp;</div>
              <div>2. Buffer with limits, and then:</div>
              <div>&nbsp; a. &nbsp;Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a
                data channel, but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing
                the data to JS: Harald likes this. &nbsp;I'm OK with this.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>[BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it
                (combined with a stream reset) limits the potential for
                attacks or implementation problems to affect
                applications. <br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Painful for implementers to test, and virtually impossible for
      application authors to test, even if they realize it's a
      possibility.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Hmm. I wonder if this is really very easy to test: Tell the sending
    app you're not going to use OPEN, and tell the receiving app you're
    going to use OPEN. Send data.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5172091A.5040205@jesup.org" type="cite"> <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl"
        type="cite">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div>&nbsp; b. &nbsp;Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a
                data channel, but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the
                data: I like this better, since I don't see a reason not
                to give JS the data. &nbsp;</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>[BA] &nbsp;For the reasons described above, I think we
                could end up regretting this option.&nbsp;</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I agree, though for different reasons than Bernard.<br>
      <br>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Randell Jesup
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org">randell-ietf@jesup.org</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------080208000109010006080409--

From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Sun Apr 21 03:26:42 2013
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W71259E99EC38724B1682D293C90@phx.gbl> <5172091A.5040205@jesup .org> <5173341D.4020606@alvestrand.no>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 21, 2013, at 2:34 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> On 04/20/2013 05:18 AM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>> On 4/19/2013 8:32 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>> Peter Thatcher said:=20
>>>=20
>>> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to =
the question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the =
browser do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered =
sid)?"
>>>=20
>>> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer =
forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with =
Martin).
>>>=20
>>> [BA] This seems like a bad idea.  If the receiver is expecting an =
OPEN then it shouldn't allow an unlimited amount of (ordered!) data to =
be received before getting one.
>>=20
>> This case only applies in an un-ordered channel I believe, if we send =
the Open as reliable-in-order.  Ordered data must be delivered in-order =
(!), so the Open must be delivered before any following ordered data.  =
(This is why I said the Open *should* be sent in-order; it removes the =
need to buffer in an ordered channel.)
>>=20
>>>  If the receiver buffers a large amount of data and passes it to the =
 JS even if the application indicated that an OPEN was required, this =
might encourage implementations to bypass the OPEN, since receivers are =
so tolerant about not getting it even if the application has indicated =
it is required. =20
>>=20
>> Well, if we do decide to timeout or size-out buffering of unordered =
early data, I wouldn't do so quickly.  My example for this would be a =
data-only application opening an channel just as it's fading out of =
WiFi/cell coverage, and hasn't picked up the new one yet (going through =
a tunnel, dead spot in the building, walk down to the basement, etc). =20=

>>=20
>> I would far rather the transaction 'freeze' and resume when a new =
connection is picked up (and ICE restart brings the connections alive =
again), than to have an arbitrary timer cause my app/game/etc to fail in =
a very very hard-to-test way.  In practical terms, it would be Very hard =
for significant data to end up buffered.
>=20
> File transfer protocol: OPEN, send data unordered with in-band file =
block positions, close.
> If the OPEN packet gets lost, data will accumulate mighty fast.
If it gets dropped on the wire and transmission continues, it gets =
retransmitted roughly after an RTT.
The amount of data is limited by the socket buffer size of the peer.
>=20
>>   The application can deal with timeouts of the entire connection; I =
don't want to drop the data if the app has decided to stay in suspension =
waiting for a connection to resume.  After all, what is gained by =
dropping the data?  Don't say "knowledge that the channel failed to =
open" or "the connection is borked" - this isn't a good way to find out =
about total connection loss, and given we don't have timeouts on opens, =
I see no reason to insert them in an edge case for open for no useful =
reason.  If you want opens to timeout, that should be part of how Open =
works (partial-reliable with a max time), not =
indirectly-in-some-edge-cases like this.
>=20
> Partial-reliable with max time for Open might be a very good idea.
Which means you can't rely on getting an Open... Why not send the open =
request reliable and ordered. Send
all following user data ordered (no matter if the data channel is =
ordered or not) until the first message
of the peer is received.
This limits the amount of data to the local socket buffer size. You =
might have suboptimal performance
until a data message flows in the backwards direction, but that is the =
price for protection.

Using your example from above, I guess the receiver of the file sends =
requests for the block positions,
so it wouldn't hurt.

Best regards
Michael
>>=20
>>> =20
>>> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>>>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes =
this.  I'm OK with this.
>>>=20
>>> [BA] One desirable aspect of this is that it (combined with a stream =
reset) limits the potential for attacks or implementation problems to =
affect applications.=20
>>=20
>> Painful for implementers to test, and virtually impossible for =
application authors to test, even if they realize it's a possibility.
>=20
> Hmm. I wonder if this is really very easy to test: Tell the sending =
app you're not going to use OPEN, and tell the receiving app you're =
going to use OPEN. Send data.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, =
since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data. =20
>>>=20
>>> [BA]  For the reasons described above, I think we could end up =
regretting this option.=20
>>=20
>> I agree, though for different reasons than Bernard.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Randell Jesup
>>=20
>> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>>=20
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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Hey all,

On 20.04.13, 03:19, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
> 
>  4.8.  Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (SSRC)
> 
>     Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP SSRC values,
>     using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Sections 4.1 and 5 of
>     [RFC5576], and MUST also support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute
>     defined in Section 6.2 of [RFC5576].  Other attributes defined in
>     [RFC5576] MAY be supported.
> 
>     Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL.  Implementations MUST
>     support random SSRC assignment, and MUST support SSRC collision
>     detection and resolution, both according to [RFC3550].
> 
>  [BA] I think you need to be more specific here.  Does this mean that an
>  implementation needs to be able to render an SSRC that isn't declared in
>  an a=ssrc: attribute?  Personally, I'd suggest that this is useful because
>  WebRTC gateways may not know what SSRCs to expect so they can't signal
>  them.  Also, it enables operation in RTP topologies (like an RTP
>  translator).  However, keep in mind that implicit SSRCs aren't something
>  the current WEBRTC API supports.

I'd like to second this. Pre-announcing SSRC-s, which seems to be
required by current implementations (e.g. Chrome wouldn't show video for
unknown SSRCs) puts a huge constraint on existing implementations. This
applies to simple clients that may not have the API to retrieve this
information from their RTP components, but even more to gateways and RTP
translators.

Allowing the JS application to provide mappings between media streams
and unknown SSRCs would probably resolve this issue. The application can
then choose whether to do this mapping on local information or through
the use of other signalling methods such as RFC 4575.

Cheers,
Emil


-- 
https://jitsi.org

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/11/2013 4:04 PM, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>
>   Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol:
>
>   All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.
>
>

Ok, I've read the document and the whole discussion.

Why do we need DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages?

I can't understand the value of any of the things in there except 
possibly the "Label" field, which is allowed to be empty anyway(?)

Matthew Kaufman

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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On 2013-04-20 02:42, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Magnus said: 
> 
>> The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:
>>
>> 4.3. Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>>
>> Implementations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing
>> Requirements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated
>> recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile
>> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs]. Support for other audio codecs is
>> OPTIONAL.
>>
>> (tbd: the mandatory to implement video codec is not yet decided)
>>
>> From this I would like to make two observations.
>>
>> The first that the audio codecs draft should actually include the RTP
>> payload format specification for the codecs it specifies to support. I
>> strongly think this is the right place because if one later changes the
>> codec requirements then one only need to update the audio specification
>> rather than also RTP usage.
> 
> [BA] I agree with this. 
> 
>> Secondly, that it might be best remove strong normative dependencies on
>> the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We can clearly include
>> informative references saying that the codec specification for WebRTC
>> will specify the RTP payload formats to use. This also reduced cross
>> referencing and dependencies between these specifications. Thus allowing
>> us to move forward with the RTP usage independent on any continued video
>> or audio codec discussions that may occur in the WG.
>>
>>
>> Thoughts about this?
>>
>> I intended to suggest some text for the audio codec draft to improve its
>> specification of the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.
> 
> [BA] While I think this makes sense and I sympathize with the goal, in
> practice truly making the RTP usage doc codec-independent could turn out
> to be more difficult than it first appears.  One thing I have been
> noticing is that the approach to congestion control as well as loss
> recovery strategies (e.g. retransmission vs. FEC, adapting
> resolution/framerate via SDP vs. RTCP, use of AVPF feedback messages,
> etc.) may differ markedly between implementations of VP8 and H.264.

I don't think this is primary difference between VP8 and H.264, I think
it is a highly a question of usage and implementation. Yes, there are
some things that might be more or less usable with a particular codec,
but can you point to any mechanism that is usable by one video codec
that isn't usable by another one?

I at least don't intended to make this media type independent when
necessary to make it clear what tools are suitable for which media type.

>  This raises the nasty possibility that even if the MTI codec
> disagreements were to be resolved (or if browsers were to support codec
> extensibility) that we'd still be with saddled with persistent video
> interoperability problems.  
> 

When it comes to interoperability I think my main concern is that WebRTC
implementations select different strategies and lock down so hard
towards their own strategy that the can't handle interoperating with a
peer implementation that has a different strategy.

Do you have specific issues that we could try to improve by being clear
on how they expected to work or make clear that one needs to handle
several different types of behaviors in regards to these?

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] More elbow grease on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, please
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Thanks,

We definitely needs review of the draft. And we are just getting going
on a doing a revision that tries to reduce the list of open issues
significantly. So getting input on the issues and flagging new issues is
highly appreciated.

On 2013-04-20 04:02, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> I just re-read draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-06.  Unfortunately there are
> enough open issues left in this document to drive a convoy of trucks
> through, and a number of those issues have been open for *years* (e.g.
> some of these relate to problems that were recognized years before
> WebRTC came on the scene, but are still open, like simulcast/layered
> coding).  

Yes, there are some issue especially related to more advanced functions
around multi-stream transmission and layered coding where we don't yet
have finished specifications to reference yet. I agree that these have
been known for quite a long time. But from my perspective, the market
hasn't been desiring standardization of these functionalities, everyone
has been happy to have their own private silo of functionality where
things function by convention, rather than specification. I have been
actively working to get going on resolving these things for quite some
time.

> 
> Depressing to realize that even if the MTI video codec issues were to be
> resolved, we might *still* have interop headaches, but that's where I
> think we are.  

>From my perspective functionality that isn't mature enough will have to
be thrown out. I fear that will include some of my darlings. But that is
the reality of umbrella standardization is that you have to work with
what you have. For things that aren't ready enough to wait for, then you
publish and revisit later and see if they can be added.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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On 2013-04-21 15:42, Emil Ivov wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> On 20.04.13, 03:19, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
>> #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
>>
>>  4.8.  Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (SSRC)
>>
>>     Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP SSRC values,
>>     using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Sections 4.1 and 5 of
>>     [RFC5576], and MUST also support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute
>>     defined in Section 6.2 of [RFC5576].  Other attributes defined in
>>     [RFC5576] MAY be supported.
>>
>>     Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL.  Implementations MUST
>>     support random SSRC assignment, and MUST support SSRC collision
>>     detection and resolution, both according to [RFC3550].
>>
>>  [BA] I think you need to be more specific here.  Does this mean that an
>>  implementation needs to be able to render an SSRC that isn't declared in
>>  an a=ssrc: attribute?  Personally, I'd suggest that this is useful because
>>  WebRTC gateways may not know what SSRCs to expect so they can't signal
>>  them.  Also, it enables operation in RTP topologies (like an RTP
>>  translator).  However, keep in mind that implicit SSRCs aren't something
>>  the current WEBRTC API supports.
> 
> I'd like to second this. Pre-announcing SSRC-s, which seems to be
> required by current implementations (e.g. Chrome wouldn't show video for
> unknown SSRCs) puts a huge constraint on existing implementations. This
> applies to simple clients that may not have the API to retrieve this
> information from their RTP components, but even more to gateways and RTP
> translators.
> 
> Allowing the JS application to provide mappings between media streams
> and unknown SSRCs would probably resolve this issue. The application can
> then choose whether to do this mapping on local information or through
> the use of other signalling methods such as RFC 4575.


Yes, we will be more explicit that one MUST be able to handle
unannounced SSRCs, this is the result of having this sentence:
"Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL." If it is optional to use
then a receiver must be capable of dealing when they show up unannounced.

What about:

Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL. The fact that a=ssrc is
optional to use makes it MANDATORY to be able to receive and handle
SSRCs that has not been explicitly signalled ahead of time.
Implementations MUST support random SSRC assignment, and MUST support
SSRC collision detection and resolution, both according to [RFC3550].


My personal cases for them to start showing up are when RTP
retransmission or FEC is used with a separate SSRC. Mandating that these
SSRC are signalled, despite being associated SSRCs, rather than primary
media SSRCs.

I thought there was discussion in W3C of handling primary media source
related SSRCs that was unannounced in the API by defaulting them into
MediaStreamTracks added to some "default" MediaStream, to be able to
deal with a substantial amount of legacy cases where it is difficult or
even impossible to learn the SSRC of the media streams for the peer
prior to receiving the media.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTP Usage: Reducing dependency on codec specifications
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On 2013-04-20 22:19, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> I may be too simple-minded, but why isn't the correct reference to
> codecs in "RTP usage" a simple note saying
> 
> "Mandatory to implement codecs for RTCWEB are not specified in this memo."

I would add to this with also making clear that their payload format
also are not specified here.

There reason to include a reference to the AVP profile is that people
appear poorly aware that this contains recommendations. The reference to
the WebRTC audio and corresponding video can clearly be handled by the
Overview document. If others think making this as thin as possible I
will remove these references. What I think is important, as it appears
to be over and over questioned, is that WebRTC is capable of using any
codec that has an RTP payload format and can be negotiated between the
peers.

At least there appear to be support for the notion that the codec
documents should contain the RTP payload format specs for their
specified codecs. This allows me to move ahead with suggestion for such
text to audio.

Cheers

Magnus

> 
> or even less than that:
> 
> ""
> 
> ?
> 
> I simply don't see why it should need to be mentioned in this document.
> 
> On 04/19/2013 03:38 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
>> WG,
>> As Individual and Editor of the WG document:
>>
>> The latest version of the RTP usage for WebRTC says:
>>
>> 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>>
>>     Implementations MUST follow the WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing
>>     Requirements [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio] and SHOULD follow the updated
>>     recommendations for audio codecs in the RTP/AVP Profile
>>     [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs].  Support for other audio codecs is
>>     OPTIONAL.
>>
>>     (tbd: the mandatory to implement video codec is not yet decided)
>>
>>  From this I would like to make two observations.
>>
>> The first that the audio codecs draft should actually include the RTP
>> payload format specification for the codecs it specifies to support. I
>> strongly think this is the right place because if one later changes the
>> codec requirements then one only need to update the audio specification
>> rather than also RTP usage.
>>
>> Secondly, that it might be best remove strong normative dependencies on
>> the codec specifications in the RTP usage. We can clearly include
>> informative references saying that the codec specification for WebRTC
>> will specify the RTP payload formats to use. This also reduced cross
>> referencing and dependencies between these specifications. Thus allowing
>> us to move forward with the RTP usage independent on any continued video
>> or audio codec discussions that may occur in the WG.
>>
>> I propose that we change the first paragraph and remove the open issue
>> (tbd) listed after so the text instead reads:
>>
>> 4.3.  Choice of RTP Payload Formats
>>
>> The RTP payload formats to support depends on the media codecs that an
>> implementation supports for media transport in WebRTC. These includes
>> any codec mandated by other WebRTC codec specifications, such as the
>> audio codecs specified in WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
>> [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-audio], or recommended by the RTP profile in use, see
>> Update to Recommended Codecs for the RTP Profile for Audio and Video
>> Conferences with Minimal Control (RTP/AVP)
>> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs]. Support of any additional codecs and
>> their RTP payload formats is OPTIONAL.
>>
>>
>> Thoughts about this?
>>
>> I intended to suggest some text for the audio codec draft to improve its
>> specification of the RTP payload formats related to the codecs.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Magnus Westerlund
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>> Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

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Harald and Peter,

Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Magnus said: 
> 
>> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and the
>> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If not I
>> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be explicit
>> about what should be changed.
>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
>>
> 
> 
> Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
> (draft­jesup­rtcweb­data­protocol­04)  is great.
> 
> [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentation
> suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP, which
> isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
> 
> Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channel
> negotiation out of the document. 
> 
> [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up data
> channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps referring to
> getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?  
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

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Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 22 April 2013 07:04, Magnus Westerlund
<magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Yes, we will be more explicit that one MUST be able to handle
> unannounced SSRCs, this is the result of having this sentence:
> "Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL." If it is optional to use
> then a receiver must be capable of dealing when they show up unannounced.

That solves half the problem.

I don't recall the discussion on the "default" MediaStream, but it's
very similar to several other suggestions I've heard.  Another one
suggested was to provide unidentified single-track streams when
unknown streams appear.  I'm not sure how either option would migrate
to identified and grouped streams.

The basic problem is that you don't have an answer that provides you
with the necessary information.  Even if you could somehow associate
an incoming packet with an m= line, you don't have any way to
determine what identifier the remote side attached to that stream.
It's also unknown how that stream was grouped prior to being put on
the network.  This is somewhat important because we expect it to
happen in a lot of cases.

We designed an "unexpected SSRC" event in CU-RTC-Web, which fixes the
problem in a different way.  That is, make it somebody else's problem.

From emil@sip-communicator.org  Mon Apr 22 12:25:28 2013
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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On 22.04.13, 19:29, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 22 April 2013 07:04, Magnus Westerlund
> <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> Yes, we will be more explicit that one MUST be able to handle
>> unannounced SSRCs, this is the result of having this sentence:
>> "Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL." If it is optional to use
>> then a receiver must be capable of dealing when they show up unannounced.
> 
> That solves half the problem.
> 
> I don't recall the discussion on the "default" MediaStream, but it's
> very similar to several other suggestions I've heard.  Another one
> suggested was to provide unidentified single-track streams when
> unknown streams appear.  I'm not sure how either option would migrate
> to identified and grouped streams.
> 
> The basic problem is that you don't have an answer that provides you
> with the necessary information.  Even if you could somehow associate
> an incoming packet with an m= line, you don't have any way to
> determine what identifier the remote side attached to that stream.
> It's also unknown how that stream was grouped prior to being put on
> the network.  This is somewhat important because we expect it to
> happen in a lot of cases.
> 
> We designed an "unexpected SSRC" event in CU-RTC-Web, which fixes the
> problem in a different way.  That is, make it somebody else's problem.

This would make a lot of sense, and as I already pointed out, exsiting
non-sdp/non-OA mechanisms can be used for this (e.g. RFC4575 or XEP-0298)

That said, even a "default" media stream would be better than simply
ignoring unannounced SSRCs, which is what happens with current
implementations.

Cheers,
Emil


-- 
https://jitsi.org

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From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley)
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> 
> On 22 April 2013 07:04, Magnus Westerlund
> <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Yes, we will be more explicit that one MUST be able to handle
> > unannounced SSRCs, this is the result of having this sentence:
> > "Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL." If it is optional to use
> > then a receiver must be capable of dealing when they show up unannounced.

> The basic problem is that you don't have an answer that provides you
> with the necessary information.  Even if you could somehow associate
> an incoming packet with an m= line, [...]

My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with an m=
line is a solved problem -- the transport association on which the
packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all of the currently
active bundling proposals) the payload type tells which m= line within
the bundle.

> [...] you don't have any way to
> determine what identifier the remote side attached to that stream.
> It's also unknown how that stream was grouped prior to being put on
> the network.  This is somewhat important because we expect it to
> happen in a lot of cases.

However, I believe you are correct that knowing which m= line contains
the SSRC does not tell the RtcWeb stream identification.

Dale

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It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)

I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of SCTP in
SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.



On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Harald and Peter,
>
> Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus
>
> On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > Magnus said:
> >
> >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and the
> >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If not I
> >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be explici=
t
> >> about what should be changed.
> >>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
> >>
> >
> >
> > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
> > (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04)  is grea=
t.
> >
> > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentatio=
n
> > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP, which
> > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
> >
> > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channel
> > negotiation out of the document.
> >
> > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up data
> > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps referring t=
o
> > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">It clearly wasn&#39;t clear to Bernard either :-)<div><br>=
</div><div>I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage =
of SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.</di=
v>

<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
agnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Harald and Peter,<br>
<br>
Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus<br>
<br>
On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:<br>
&gt; Magnus said:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt; corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If n=
ot I<br>
&gt;&gt; am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be exp=
licit<br>
&gt;&gt; about what should be changed.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-r=
tcweb" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes=
-86-rtcweb</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter&#39;s proposal<b=
r>
&gt; (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04) =C2=A0i=
s great.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentati=
on<br>
&gt; suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP, which=
<br>
&gt; isn&#39;t covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channe=
l<br>
&gt; negotiation out of the document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [BA] =C2=A0Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up =
data<br>
&gt; channels this doesn&#39;t make sense to me. =C2=A0Was Harald perhaps r=
eferring to<br>
&gt; getting data channel negotiation &quot;out of SDP&quot;?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =
=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+46107148287">+46 10 71=
48287</a><br>
F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0| Mobile <a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2073%200949079" value=3D"+46730949079">+46=
 73 0949079</a><br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@er=
icsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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On 22 April 2013 15:15, Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with an m=
> line is a solved problem -- the transport association on which the
> packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all of the currently
> active bundling proposals) the payload type tells which m= line within
> the bundle.

Not so.  If you have five PTs on each m= line, and 30 m= lines, you
just don't have that many PTs available.  At some point you have to
recognize that SSRC is what you have to use.  (Neither number is
extraordinary.)

So, no, demux is a solved problem, but I don't believe that it's as
simple as you describe.

> However, I believe you are correct that knowing which m= line contains
> the SSRC does not tell the RtcWeb stream identification.

Exactly, you need to know how to label, identify and group the
application layer construct that you create to represent the media.

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Mon Apr 22 16:04:05 2013
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: [rtcweb] RRe:  More elbow grease on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, please
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Magnus said:

Yes=2C there are some issue especially related to more advanced functions=
=0A=
around multi-stream transmission and layered coding where we don't yet=0A=
have finished specifications to reference yet. I agree that these have=0A=
been known for quite a long time. But from my perspective=2C the market=0A=
hasn't been desiring standardization of these functionalities=2C everyone=
=0A=
has been happy to have their own private silo of functionality where=0A=
things function by convention=2C rather than specification. I have been=0A=
actively working to get going on resolving these things for quite some=0A=
time.

[BA] The "market desire" has been growing strongly=2C now that support for =
simulcast and
layered coding has become much more common.  Interestingly=2C many of the i=
mplementations have
independently chosen to do things similarly (though not exactly the same wa=
y)=2C indicating
that there is a basis for agreement about how things should work.  I am hop=
ing that we will
therefore see more progress=2C starting with the Berlin meeting.=20


Magnus said:=20

>From my perspective functionality that isn't mature enough will have to=0A=
be thrown out. I fear that will include some of my darlings. But that is=0A=
the reality of umbrella standardization is that you have to work with=0A=
what you have. For things that aren't ready enough to wait for=2C then you=
=0A=
publish and revisit later and see if they can be added.=0A=

[BA] If there is a clean way to separate "v1.0" functionality from addons=
=2C that would be
welcome.  However=2C in the current RTP usage draft there are open issues t=
hat relate to the
interaction of feedback messages and congestion control=2C which seems like=
 a "v2.0"=20
feature (e.g. "v1.0" is circuit-breakers).  Also=2C there is an interaction=
 between the=20
approach to resolution/frame rate change and support for simulcast/layered =
coding (e.g.=20
simulcast/layered coding implementations typically change resolution/frame =
rate without SDP=20
re-negotiation=2C since the sender or mixer can drop layers/change simulcas=
t encodings).=20

 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Magnus said:<br><br><pre>Yes=2C =
there are some issue especially related to more advanced functions=0A=
around multi-stream transmission and layered coding where we don't yet=0A=
have finished specifications to reference yet. I agree that these have=0A=
been known for quite a long time. But from my perspective=2C the market=0A=
hasn't been desiring standardization of these functionalities=2C everyone=
=0A=
has been happy to have their own private silo of functionality where=0A=
things function by convention=2C rather than specification. I have been=0A=
actively working to get going on resolving these things for quite some=0A=
time.<br><br>[BA] The "market desire" has been growing strongly=2C now that=
 support for simulcast and<br>layered coding has become much more common.  =
Interestingly=2C many of the implementations have<br>independently chosen t=
o do things similarly (though not exactly the same way)=2C indicating<br>th=
at there is a basis for agreement about how things should work.  I am hopin=
g that we will<br>therefore see more progress=2C starting with the Berlin m=
eeting. <br><br><br>Magnus said: <br><br>From my perspective functionality =
that isn't mature enough will have to=0A=
be thrown out. I fear that will include some of my darlings. But that is=0A=
the reality of umbrella standardization is that you have to work with=0A=
what you have. For things that aren't ready enough to wait for=2C then you=
=0A=
publish and revisit later and see if they can be added.=0A=
<br>[BA] If there is a clean way to separate "v1.0" functionality from addo=
ns=2C that would be<br>welcome.  However=2C in the current RTP usage draft =
there are open issues that relate to the<br>interaction of feedback message=
s and congestion control=2C which seems like a "v2.0" <br>feature (e.g. "v1=
.0" is circuit-breakers).  Also=2C there is an interaction between the <br>=
approach to resolution/frame rate change and support for simulcast/layered =
coding (e.g. <br>simulcast/layered coding implementations typically change =
resolution/frame rate without SDP <br>re-negotiation=2C since the sender or=
 mixer can drop layers/change simulcast encodings). <br></pre><br> 		 	   	=
	  </div></body>
</html>=

--_c3349aad-421d-4b91-8157-e280fa8f7a23_--

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Subject: [rtcweb] RRe:  More elbow grease on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, please
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Magnus said:

Yes=2C there are some issue especially related to more advanced functions=
=0A=
around multi-stream transmission and layered coding where we don't yet=0A=
have finished specifications to reference yet. I agree that these have=0A=
been known for quite a long time. But from my perspective=2C the market=0A=
hasn't been desiring standardization of these functionalities=2C everyone=
=0A=
has been happy to have their own private silo of functionality where=0A=
things function by convention=2C rather than specification. I have been=0A=
actively working to get going on resolving these things for quite some=0A=
time.

[BA] The "market desire" has been growing strongly=2C now that support for =
simulcast and
layered coding has become much more common.  Interestingly=2C many of the i=
mplementations have
independently chosen to do things similarly (though not exactly the same wa=
y)=2C indicating
that there is a basis for agreement about how things should work.  I am hop=
ing that we will
therefore see more progress=2C starting with the Berlin meeting.=20


Magnus said:=20

>From my perspective functionality that isn't mature enough will have to=0A=
be thrown out. I fear that will include some of my darlings. But that is=0A=
the reality of umbrella standardization is that you have to work with=0A=
what you have. For things that aren't ready enough to wait for=2C then you=
=0A=
publish and revisit later and see if they can be added.=0A=

[BA] If there is a clean way to separate "v1.0" functionality from addons=
=2C that would be
welcome.  However=2C in the current RTP usage draft there are open issues t=
hat relate to the
interaction of feedback messages and congestion control=2C which seems like=
 a "v2.0"=20
feature (e.g. "v1.0" is circuit-breakers).  Also=2C there is an interaction=
 between the=20
approach to resolution/frame rate change and support for simulcast/layered =
coding (e.g.=20
simulcast/layered coding implementations typically change resolution/frame =
rate without SDP=20
re-negotiation=2C since the sender or mixer can drop layers/change simulcas=
t encodings).=20

 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
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body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Magnus said:<br><br><pre>Yes=2C =
there are some issue especially related to more advanced functions=0A=
around multi-stream transmission and layered coding where we don't yet=0A=
have finished specifications to reference yet. I agree that these have=0A=
been known for quite a long time. But from my perspective=2C the market=0A=
hasn't been desiring standardization of these functionalities=2C everyone=
=0A=
has been happy to have their own private silo of functionality where=0A=
things function by convention=2C rather than specification. I have been=0A=
actively working to get going on resolving these things for quite some=0A=
time.<br><br>[BA] The "market desire" has been growing strongly=2C now that=
 support for simulcast and<br>layered coding has become much more common.  =
Interestingly=2C many of the implementations have<br>independently chosen t=
o do things similarly (though not exactly the same way)=2C indicating<br>th=
at there is a basis for agreement about how things should work.  I am hopin=
g that we will<br>therefore see more progress=2C starting with the Berlin m=
eeting. <br><br><br>Magnus said: <br><br>From my perspective functionality =
that isn't mature enough will have to=0A=
be thrown out. I fear that will include some of my darlings. But that is=0A=
the reality of umbrella standardization is that you have to work with=0A=
what you have. For things that aren't ready enough to wait for=2C then you=
=0A=
publish and revisit later and see if they can be added.=0A=
<br>[BA] If there is a clean way to separate "v1.0" functionality from addo=
ns=2C that would be<br>welcome.  However=2C in the current RTP usage draft =
there are open issues that relate to the<br>interaction of feedback message=
s and congestion control=2C which seems like a "v2.0" <br>feature (e.g. "v1=
.0" is circuit-breakers).  Also=2C there is an interaction between the <br>=
approach to resolution/frame rate change and support for simulcast/layered =
coding (e.g. <br>simulcast/layered coding implementations typically change =
resolution/frame rate without SDP <br>re-negotiation=2C since the sender or=
 mixer can drop layers/change simulcast encodings). <br></pre><br> 		 	   	=
	  </div></body>
</html>=

--_0c3ab81e-24b0-41b7-909b-8de3fe702faa_--

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Subject: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations
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In my opinion this kind of document is very useful and addresses =
recurrent questions in this list and in the industry.  Some comments:

- I would add a recommendation on automatic TURN reconnections to handle =
proxies max connection timeout.

- I would clarify that scenarios in section 2 only require TURN server =
if both endpoints and behind that type of NAT, not if only one of them =
is behind it.

- In section 2.2 we could add a comment on the requirement for =
simultaneous-open support in case both endpoints and behind that kind of =
NAT/FW.

- There is a 3GPP document with a similar scope and introduces a similar =
taxonomy (http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/33830.htm).   I don't =
like the terminology in that document but I think it is worth keeping it =
in mind and probably referencing it.

Regards,
G.




From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Tue Apr 23 00:06:08 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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On 2013-04-23 00:15, Dale R. Worley wrote:
>> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 22 April 2013 07:04, Magnus Westerlund
>> <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, we will be more explicit that one MUST be able to handle
>>> unannounced SSRCs, this is the result of having this sentence:
>>> "Use of the "a=ssrc:" attribute is OPTIONAL." If it is optional to use
>>> then a receiver must be capable of dealing when they show up unannounced.
> 
>> The basic problem is that you don't have an answer that provides you
>> with the necessary information.  Even if you could somehow associate
>> an incoming packet with an m= line, [...]
> 
> My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with an m=
> line is a solved problem -- the transport association on which the
> packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all of the currently
> active bundling proposals) the payload type tells which m= line within
> the bundle.
> 

I think this is one aspect of the bundle that doesn't work. You will
need to be able to use the same PT configuration and number (remember
that they are on RTP session level) to avoid running out of them and I
believe some limitations.

This, is also highly dependent on where on the scale we end up with the
usage of a m= block. If that is per media source, then it is clearly a
no-go to not allow the same. The other end of the spectra is one m=
block per media type being allowed. I think we will end up somewhere in
the middle, with different m= blocks depending on usage of media
streams. But this is really an MMUSIC question.

In this context, I do wonder if it at all matters which m= block the the
SSRC was intended for, as long as a receiver correctly can receive and
process the media. Which the payload type should provide most of the
functionality for.


>> [...] you don't have any way to
>> determine what identifier the remote side attached to that stream.
>> It's also unknown how that stream was grouped prior to being put on
>> the network.  This is somewhat important because we expect it to
>> happen in a lot of cases.
> 
> However, I believe you are correct that knowing which m= line contains
> the SSRC does not tell the RtcWeb stream identification.

Correct, but for legacy use-cases you might have to accept some
limiations that you can't get the ID's across the PeerConnection and
your JS will have to work with locally generated ids. I think the issue
is really around when the signalling glitches and you get locally
generated IDs that then needs to be changed to the actual signalled ones.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:05:06 -0700
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I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which includes
what Harald just said:

- SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual data channels
are not mentioned in the SDP.
- The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.
- The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used by the
browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.
- There is an in-band "OPEN" message, but it is optional.

That's what I support.


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com> wrote:

> It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)
>
> I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of SCTP i=
n
> SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Harald and Peter,
>>
>> Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>> > Magnus said:
>> >
>> >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and the
>> >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If not =
I
>> >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be explic=
it
>> >> about what should be changed.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
>> > (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04)  is gre=
at.
>> >
>> > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentati=
on
>> > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP, which
>> > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
>> >
>> > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channe=
l
>> > negotiation out of the document.
>> >
>> > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up data
>> > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps referring =
to
>> > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Magnus Westerlund
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>> F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and w=
hich includes what Harald just said:<div><br></div><div>- SCTP is in SDP on=
ly to set up the transport, and individual data channels are not mentioned =
in the SDP.</div>

<div style>- The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel=
.</div><div style>- The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism i=
s used by the browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.</div>

<div style>- There is an in-band &quot;OPEN&quot; message, but it is option=
al.</div><div style><br></div><div style>That&#39;s what I support.</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, A=
pr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:hta@google.com" target=3D"_blank">hta@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It clearly wasn&#39;t clear=
 to Bernard either :-)<div><br></div><div>I supported what draft-jesup was =
suggesting - negotiating usage of SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individua=
l data channels in the SDP.</div>



<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:1=
4 PM, Magnus Westerlund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.west=
erlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>



<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Harald and Peter,<br>
<br>
Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus<br>
<br>
On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:<br>
&gt; Magnus said:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context and t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt; corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer. If n=
ot I<br>
&gt;&gt; am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please be exp=
licit<br>
&gt;&gt; about what should be changed.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-r=
tcweb" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes=
-86-rtcweb</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter&#39;s proposal<b=
r>
&gt; (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04) =C2=A0i=
s great.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the presentati=
on<br>
&gt; suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from SDP, which=
<br>
&gt; isn&#39;t covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got data channe=
l<br>
&gt; negotiation out of the document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [BA] =C2=A0Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting up =
data<br>
&gt; channels this doesn&#39;t make sense to me. =C2=A0Was Harald perhaps r=
eferring to<br>
&gt; getting data channel negotiation &quot;out of SDP&quot;?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =
=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+46107148287" target=3D=
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get=3D"_blank">+46 73 0949079</a><br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@er=
icsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
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<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:17:23 -0700
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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--047d7b15a815ce77b704db0b3421
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Based on feedback, it sounds like we're basically narrowing this down to
"buffer for a while and then fire an error locally without giving the data
to JS, and close the stream so the remote side knows".  That sounds pretty
good to me.


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>wrote:

> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the
> question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser do
> with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
>
> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer
> forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with
> Martin).
> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, but an
> OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes this.  I'm
> OK with this.
>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, but an
> OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, since I don't
> see a reason not to give JS the data.
>   c.  Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally thinking, but
> I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy with (b) instead.
>
>
> Right now, it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with
> resetting the stream.  In other words, if I'm a browser, I'd do something
> like:
>
> function handle_data(sid, data) {
>   if (is_open_message(data)) {
>     var info = get_stream_info(data)
>     var buffered_data = clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)
>     fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)
>   } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {
>     fire_ondata(sid, data)
>   } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {
>     add_to_buffer(sid, data)
>   } else {
>     var buffered_data = clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)
>     reset_stream(sid)
>   }
> }
>
>
> Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understand?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
>> > the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
>> > 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
>>
>> I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
>> that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
>> far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
>> incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
>> delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
>> amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
>> relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
>> you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
>>
>> > I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while
>> waiting for the Open.
>>
>> That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
>>
>> > No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
>> > non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever
>> > sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you
>> against
>> > that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread it
>> > across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS
>> > methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>>
>> I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
>> it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
>> can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
>> reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
>> with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
>> bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
>> memory than you are willing to tolerate.
>>
>> Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
>> unfortunates who encounter this problem.
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>
>

--047d7b15a815ce77b704db0b3421
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Based on feedback, it sounds like we&#39;re basically narr=
owing this down to &quot;buffer for a while and then fire an error locally =
without giving the data to JS, and close the stream so the remote side know=
s&quot;. =C2=A0That sounds pretty good to me.<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri,=
 Apr 19, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Peter Thatcher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:pthatcher@google.com" target=3D"_blank">pthatcher@google.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I like all the discussion, =
but I feel like we need to get back to the question and what options we hav=
e. =C2=A0The question: &quot;what does the browser do with unexpected data =
(before an open of an unregistered sid)?&quot;<div>



<br></div><div>1. Buffer forever without limits: =C2=A0Randell thinks it&#3=
9;s OK to buffer forever without limits. =C2=A0Martin disagrees. =C2=A0I di=
sagree (I agree with Martin).</div><div>2. Buffer with limits, and then:</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0 a. =C2=A0Hand an error to JS saying &quot;got some data for a d=
ata channel, but an OPEN never came&quot; WITHOUT providing the data to JS:=
 Harald likes this. =C2=A0I&#39;m OK with this.</div><div>=C2=A0 b. =C2=A0H=
and an error to JS saying &quot;got some data for a data channel, but an OP=
EN never came&quot; WITH providing the data: I like this better, since I do=
n&#39;t see a reason not to give JS the data. =C2=A0</div>



<div>=C2=A0 c. =C2=A0Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally=
 thinking, but I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy wit=
h (b) instead.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, it =
seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with resetting the stream. =
=C2=A0In other words, if I&#39;m a browser, I&#39;d do something like:</div=
>



<div><br></div><div>function handle_data(sid, data) {<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
if (is_open_message(data)) {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var info =3D get_strea=
m_info(data)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid=
)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)</div>


<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)</div>
<div>=C2=A0 } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fir=
e_ondata(sid, data)</div><div>=C2=A0 } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add_to_buffer(sid, data)</div><div>=C2=A0 } else {</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 reset_stream(sid)</div><div>=C2=A0 }<br></div><div>}</div><div><br>=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>Are there other options I&#39;m missing or didn&#39;t u=
nderstand?</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, =
Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>



<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org" target=3D"_blank">randell-ietf=
@jesup.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>




&gt; the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have<br>
&gt; 100% (or virtually so) packet loss<br>
<br>
</div>I&#39;m going to pretend you didn&#39;t say that. =C2=A0If you want t=
o talk odds,<br>
that&#39;s fine, but I think that you&#39;ll find that this sort of error i=
s<br>
far more likely than you realize. =C2=A0We&#39;re talking the probability o=
f<br>
incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being<br>
delivered. =C2=A0After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum=
<br>
amount of data is infinite. =C2=A0Though large numbers might be of<br>
relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale<br>
you are going to encounter surprising spikes.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; I honestly feel it&#39;s ok to just buffer all incoming packets while =
waiting for the Open.<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s not a warm fuzzy that I share.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open... =C2=A0=
A<br>
&gt; non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without eve=
r<br>
&gt; sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn&#39;t actually help you=
 against<br>
&gt; that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread it=
<br>
&gt; across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better DOS<=
br>
&gt; methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.<br>
<br>
</div>I think that would be a mistake. =C2=A0This isn&#39;t about denial of=
 service,<br>
it&#39;s about genuine usage cases that encounter errors. =C2=A0The receive=
r<br>
can&#39;t use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are<br>
reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up<br>
with an unbounded amount of data. =C2=A0The amount of data will scale with<=
br>
bandwidth delay product. =C2=A0A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and<br>
memory than you are willing to tolerate.<br>
<br>
Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the<br>
unfortunates who encounter this problem.<br>
<div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b15a815ce77b704db0b3421--

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From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> 
> On 22 April 2013 15:15, Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
> > My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with an m=
> > line is a solved problem -- the transport association on which the
> > packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all of the currently
> > active bundling proposals) the payload type tells which m= line within
> > the bundle.
> 
> Not so.  If you have five PTs on each m= line, and 30 m= lines, you
> just don't have that many PTs available.  At some point you have to
> recognize that SSRC is what you have to use.  (Neither number is
> extraordinary.)

But why would you use 30 m= lines?  You'd only have 30 streams in a
videoconference-type situation, where the streams don't have distinct
roles and so don't need to be given role labels.  As far as I know,
current videoconference systems don't put each video stream in a
separate m= line.

Dale

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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If you have several devices per host (e.g. Multiple cameras) each using simu=
lcast or layered coding, are supporting screen sharing/data channel/audio+vi=
deo and also have a single m=3D line for each RTP stream, then this isn't so=
 outlandish.

On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:00, "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
> But why would you use 30 m=3D lines?  You'd only have 30 streams in a
> videoconference-type situation, where the streams don't have distinct
> roles and so don't need to be given role labels.  As far as I know,
> current videoconference systems don't put each video stream in a
> separate m=3D line.
>=20
>=20

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From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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You can easily exhaust the dynamic payload type number space (96-127) with =
only a few media lines, not 30. Keep in mind the primary purpose of payload=
 type is to negotiate codecs, not demux different streams. An offer from a =
highly interoperable product will contain many payload types for each strea=
m. It is not uncommon to support 8+ payload types and 4+ streams, which qui=
ckly exhausts the dynamic space. Also keep in mind that many codecs have di=
fferent configurations that are expressed as different payload types, so ev=
en supporting a single audio and video codec can yield many payload types i=
f those codecs are highly configurable.

Consider a very simple product (smartphone) in a very simple use case (3-wa=
y video chat). It supports several audio codecs (OPUS, AAC-LD, AMR-WB, AMR-=
NB, G.711) and several video codecs (VP8, VP9, H.264, H.265). It supports s=
everal H.264 profiles (BP, HP, SBP, SHP) and packetization modes (0, 1). Th=
is already exhausts all 32 dynamic payload types, before we even consider t=
hings like FEC, scalable or simulcast layers sent via MST, screen sharing, =
multiple cameras, etc.

So I would strongly discourage folks from assuming payload type demux is vi=
able in most use cases. It may be viable when there is a single audio and v=
ideo stream, each using a single codec and configuration. But it quickly be=
comes impractical or impossible when the product gets more capable or the u=
se case gets more interesting.

Mo


-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Dale R. Worley
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:58 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling

> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>=20
> On 22 April 2013 15:15, Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
> > My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with an m=
=3D
> > line is a solved problem -- the transport association on which the
> > packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all of the currently
> > active bundling proposals) the payload type tells which m=3D line withi=
n
> > the bundle.
>=20
> Not so.  If you have five PTs on each m=3D line, and 30 m=3D lines, you
> just don't have that many PTs available.  At some point you have to
> recognize that SSRC is what you have to use.  (Neither number is
> extraordinary.)

But why would you use 30 m=3D lines?  You'd only have 30 streams in a
videoconference-type situation, where the streams don't have distinct
roles and so don't need to be given role labels.  As far as I know,
current videoconference systems don't put each video stream in a
separate m=3D line.

Dale
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:25:56 -0700
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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There is still the need to define "a while".    IMHO=2C for "reliable" tran=
sport of the OPEN that could survive a routing transient=2C we are talking =
about roughly 30 seconds or 5 re-transmissions.   If we assume that only th=
e OPEN is lost (no losses in the data)=2C  required buffer =3D Timeout * mi=
n(RWIN=2C CWIN)/RTT .  This may not be small number.=20
Example: Timeout =3D 30 seconds=2C min (CWIN=2C RWIN) =3D 16 KB=2C RTT =3D =
50 ms=2C  buffer =3D 30 second * 16 KB/50 ms =3D 9.6 MB


From: pthatcher@google.com
Date: Tue=2C 23 Apr 2013 11:17:23 -0700
To: martin.thomson@gmail.com
CC: randell-ietf@jesup.org=3B rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN

Based on feedback=2C it sounds like we're basically narrowing this down to =
"buffer for a while and then fire an error locally without giving the data =
to JS=2C and close the stream so the remote side knows".  That sounds prett=
y good to me.
=0A=
=0A=


On Fri=2C Apr 19=2C 2013 at 12:12 PM=2C Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.co=
m> wrote:
=0A=
=0A=
I like all the discussion=2C but I feel like we need to get back to the que=
stion and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser do wi=
th unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer forever=
 without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with Martin).2. Bu=
ffer with limits=2C and then:=0A=
  a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel=2C but a=
n OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes this.  I'=
m OK with this.  b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data c=
hannel=2C but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this bett=
er=2C since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data.  =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
  c.  Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally thinking=2C bu=
t I understand the downsides mentioned=2C and would be happy with (b) inste=
ad.=20

Right now=2C it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options=2C mixed with reset=
ting the stream.  In other words=2C if I'm a browser=2C I'd do something li=
ke:=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

function handle_data(sid=2C data) {
  if (is_open_message(data)) {    var info =3D get_stream_info(data)    var=
 buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)    fire_ondatachannel(sid=2C info)=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
    fire_ondata(sid=2C buffered_data)=0A=
  } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {    fire_ondata(sid=2C data)  } else i=
f (buffer_has_space(sid)) {    add_to_buffer(sid=2C data)  } else {=0A=
    var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)    fire_unknownchannelerror_in_=
js(sid=2C buffered_data)    reset_stream(sid)  }
}
=0A=

Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understand?


On Fri=2C Apr 19=2C 2013 at 11:11 AM=2C Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 19 April 2013 09:39=2C Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
> the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
=0A=
> 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
=0A=

=0A=
I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds=2C
=0A=
that's fine=2C but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
=0A=
far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
=0A=
incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
=0A=
delivered.  After all=2C unless you have 0% loss=2C the *possible* maximum
=0A=
amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
=0A=
relatively low probability on an individual basis=2C operating at scale
=0A=
you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
=0A=

=0A=
> I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while waiting=
 for the Open.
=0A=

=0A=
That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
=0A=

=0A=
> No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
=0A=
> non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without ever
=0A=
> sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you agains=
t
=0A=
> that sort of active DOS (they can just start again=2C they can spread it
=0A=
> across thousands of channels=2C etc=2C etc)=2C and there are FAR better D=
OS
=0A=
> methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
=0A=

=0A=
I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service=2C
=0A=
it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
=0A=
can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
=0A=
reading from the stream to look for the open message=2C so you end up
=0A=
with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
=0A=
bandwidth delay product.  A long=2C fat pipe might burn more CPU and
=0A=
memory than you are willing to tolerate.
=0A=

=0A=
Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
=0A=
unfortunates who encounter this problem.
=0A=
_______________________________________________
=0A=
rtcweb mailing list
=0A=
rtcweb@ietf.org
=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
=0A=

=0A=

=0A=

_______________________________________________=0A=
rtcweb mailing list=0A=
rtcweb@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb 		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>There is still the need to defin=
e "a while". &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3BIMHO=2C for "reliable" transport of the OPEN =
that could survive a routing transient=2C we are talking about roughly 30 s=
econds or 5 re-transmissions. &nbsp=3B If we assume that only the OPEN is l=
ost (no losses in the data)=2C &nbsp=3Brequired buffer =3D Timeout * min(RW=
IN=2C CWIN)/RTT&nbsp=3B. &nbsp=3BThis may not be small number.&nbsp=3B<div>=
<br></div><div>Example: Timeout =3D 30 seconds=2C min (CWIN=2C RWIN) =3D 16=
 KB=2C RTT =3D 50 ms=2C &nbsp=3Bbuffer =3D 30 second * 16 KB/50 ms =3D 9.6 =
MB<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></d=
iv><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">From: pthatcher@google.com<br>Date: Tue=2C 23 Ap=
r 2013 11:17:23 -0700<br>To: martin.thomson@gmail.com<br>CC: randell-ietf@j=
esup.org=3B rtcweb@ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA=
_CHANNEL_OPEN<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Based on feedback=2C it sounds like w=
e're basically narrowing this down to "buffer for a while and then fire an =
error locally without giving the data to JS=2C and close the stream so the =
remote side knows". &nbsp=3BThat sounds pretty good to me.<br>=0A=
=0A=
</div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">O=
n Fri=2C Apr 19=2C 2013 at 12:12 PM=2C Peter Thatcher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
=3B<a href=3D"mailto:pthatcher@google.com" target=3D"_blank">pthatcher@goog=
le.com</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br>=0A=
=0A=
<blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3B=
padding-left:1ex=3B"><div dir=3D"ltr">I like all the discussion=2C but I fe=
el like we need to get back to the question and what options we have. &nbsp=
=3BThe question: "what does the browser do with unexpected data (before an =
open of an unregistered sid)?"<div>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<br></div><div>1. Buffer forever without limits: &nbsp=3BRandell thinks it'=
s OK to buffer forever without limits. &nbsp=3BMartin disagrees. &nbsp=3BI =
disagree (I agree with Martin).</div><div>2. Buffer with limits=2C and then=
:</div>=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B a. &nbsp=3BHand an error to JS saying "got some data for a da=
ta channel=2C but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Har=
ald likes this. &nbsp=3BI'm OK with this.</div><div>&nbsp=3B b. &nbsp=3BHan=
d an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel=2C but an OPEN ne=
ver came" WITH providing the data: I like this better=2C since I don't see =
a reason not to give JS the data. &nbsp=3B</div>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B c. &nbsp=3BFire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was origin=
ally thinking=2C but I understand the downsides mentioned=2C and would be h=
appy with (b) instead.</div><div>&nbsp=3B<br></div><div><br></div><div>Righ=
t now=2C it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options=2C mixed with resetting=
 the stream. &nbsp=3BIn other words=2C if I'm a browser=2C I'd do something=
 like:</div>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<div><br></div><div>function handle_data(sid=2C data) {<br></div><div>&nbsp=
=3B if (is_open_message(data)) {</div><div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B var info =3D g=
et_stream_info(data)</div><div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B var buffered_data =3D clea=
r_buffer(sid)</div><div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B fire_ondatachannel(sid=2C info)</=
div>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B fire_ondata(sid=2C buffered_data)</div>=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {</div><div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=
=3B fire_ondata(sid=2C data)</div><div>&nbsp=3B } else if (buffer_has_space=
(sid)) {</div><div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B add_to_buffer(sid=2C data)</div><div>&=
nbsp=3B } else {</div>=0A=
<div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)</div><div>&n=
bsp=3B &nbsp=3B fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid=2C buffered_data)</div><=
div>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B reset_stream(sid)</div><div>&nbsp=3B }<br></div><div>=
}</div><div><br></div>=0A=
<div><br></div><div>Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understan=
d?</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"=
><br><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">On Fri=2C Apr 19=2C 2013 at 11:11 AM=
=2C Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt=3B</span> wro=
te:<br>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
<blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3B=
padding-left:1ex=3B"><div>On 19 April 2013 09:39=2C Randell Jesup &lt=3B<a =
href=3D"mailto:randell-ietf@jesup.org" target=3D"_blank">randell-ietf@jesup=
.org</a>&gt=3B wrote:<br>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
&gt=3B the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have<br>=0A=
&gt=3B 100% (or virtually so) packet loss<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
</div>I'm going to pretend you didn't say that. &nbsp=3BIf you want to talk=
 odds=2C<br>=0A=
that's fine=2C but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is<br>=
=0A=
far more likely than you realize. &nbsp=3BWe're talking the probability of<=
br>=0A=
incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being<br>=0A=
delivered. &nbsp=3BAfter all=2C unless you have 0% loss=2C the *possible* m=
aximum<br>=0A=
amount of data is infinite. &nbsp=3BThough large numbers might be of<br>=0A=
relatively low probability on an individual basis=2C operating at scale<br>=
=0A=
you are going to encounter surprising spikes.<br>=0A=
<div><br>=0A=
&gt=3B I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while wa=
iting for the Open.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
</div>That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.<br>=0A=
<div><br>=0A=
&gt=3B No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open... &nbs=
p=3BA<br>=0A=
&gt=3B non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without e=
ver<br>=0A=
&gt=3B sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you a=
gainst<br>=0A=
&gt=3B that sort of active DOS (they can just start again=2C they can sprea=
d it<br>=0A=
&gt=3B across thousands of channels=2C etc=2C etc)=2C and there are FAR bet=
ter DOS<br>=0A=
&gt=3B methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
</div>I think that would be a mistake. &nbsp=3BThis isn't about denial of s=
ervice=2C<br>=0A=
it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors. &nbsp=3BThe receiver<=
br>=0A=
can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are<br>=0A=
reading from the stream to look for the open message=2C so you end up<br>=
=0A=
with an unbounded amount of data. &nbsp=3BThe amount of data will scale wit=
h<br>=0A=
bandwidth delay product. &nbsp=3BA long=2C fat pipe might burn more CPU and=
<br>=0A=
memory than you are willing to tolerate.<br>=0A=
<br>=0A=
Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the<br>=0A=
unfortunates who encounter this problem.<br>=0A=
<div><div>_______________________________________________<br>=0A=
rtcweb mailing list<br>=0A=
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>=0A=
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>=0A=
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>=0A=
</blockquote></div><br></div>=0A=
<br>_______________________________________________=0A=
rtcweb mailing list=0A=
rtcweb@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</div></div></div></div> 		 	  =
 		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_ccfdd842-29ad-4c01-913d-54a64a82d64a_--

From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Tue Apr 23 23:19:19 2013
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From: Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org> <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org> <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com> <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no> <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com> <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no> <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com> <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no> <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com> <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de> <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com> <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org> <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFpWHWN5AD7mP6G0y+gdeYc04WjK4ofLSgKG2MfZ16nvQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 23, 2013, at 8:17 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote:

> Based on feedback, it sounds like we're basically narrowing this down =
to "buffer for a while and then fire an error locally without giving the =
data to JS, and close the stream so the remote side knows".  That sounds =
pretty good to me.
Does the remote side should get any indication that the sent messages =
are dropped and not
being delivered?

Best regards
Michael
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Peter Thatcher =
<pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the =
question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser =
do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
>=20
> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer =
forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with =
Martin).
> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes =
this.  I'm OK with this.
>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, =
since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data. =20
>   c.  Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally thinking, =
but I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy with (b) =
instead.
> =20
>=20
> Right now, it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with =
resetting the stream.  In other words, if I'm a browser, I'd do =
something like:
>=20
> function handle_data(sid, data) {
>   if (is_open_message(data)) {
>     var info =3D get_stream_info(data)
>     var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)
>     fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)
>   } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {
>     fire_ondata(sid, data)
>   } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {
>     add_to_buffer(sid, data)
>   } else {
>     var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)
>     reset_stream(sid)
>   }
> }
>=20
>=20
> Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understand?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson =
<martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> > the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
> > 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
>=20
> I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
> that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
> far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
> incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
> delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
> amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
> relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
> you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
>=20
> > I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while =
waiting for the Open.
>=20
> That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
>=20
> > No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
> > non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without =
ever
> > sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you =
against
> > that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread =
it
> > across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better =
DOS
> > methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>=20
> I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
> it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
> can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
> reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
> with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
> bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
> memory than you are willing to tolerate.
>=20
> Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
> unfortunates who encounter this problem.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Tue Apr 23 23:24:11 2013
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From: Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFpWHWN5AD7mP6G0y+gdeYc04WjK4ofLSgKG2MfZ16nvQ@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W114DF9A01E2132B4B51167F93B50@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On Apr 24, 2013, at 5:25 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> There is still the need to define "a while".    IMHO, for "reliable" =
transport of the OPEN that could survive a routing transient, we are =
talking about roughly 30 seconds or 5 re-transmissions.   If we assume =
that only the OPEN is lost (no losses in the data),  required buffer =3D =
Timeout * min(RWIN, CWIN)/RTT .  This may not be small number.=20
>=20
> Example: Timeout =3D 30 seconds, min (CWIN, RWIN) =3D 16 KB, RTT =3D =
50 ms,  buffer =3D 30 second * 16 KB/50 ms =3D 9.6 MB
I guess you are considering the case where the OPEN message was dropped =
by the network multiple times...

The sender and receiver normally bound the memory for processing data =
(socket buffers). So
your above only applies if the send buffer is larger than 9.6 MB. Ofter, =
the send and
receiver buffer are the same and reflect the RWIN, so you are =
considering on the receiver
side a 16 KB buffer, on the sender side a 10 MB buffer.

The sender can not delete message sent after the OPEN message, since =
they can be reneged at the
SCTP layer.

Best regards
Michael
>=20
>=20
> From: pthatcher@google.com
> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:17:23 -0700
> To: martin.thomson@gmail.com
> CC: randell-ietf@jesup.org; rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>=20
> Based on feedback, it sounds like we're basically narrowing this down =
to "buffer for a while and then fire an error locally without giving the =
data to JS, and close the stream so the remote side knows".  That sounds =
pretty good to me.
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Peter Thatcher =
<pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
> I like all the discussion, but I feel like we need to get back to the =
question and what options we have.  The question: "what does the browser =
do with unexpected data (before an open of an unregistered sid)?"
>=20
> 1. Buffer forever without limits:  Randell thinks it's OK to buffer =
forever without limits.  Martin disagrees.  I disagree (I agree with =
Martin).
> 2. Buffer with limits, and then:
>   a.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITHOUT providing the data to JS: Harald likes =
this.  I'm OK with this.
>   b.  Hand an error to JS saying "got some data for a data channel, =
but an OPEN never came" WITH providing the data: I like this better, =
since I don't see a reason not to give JS the data. =20
>   c.  Fire .ondatachannel: This is what I was was originally thinking, =
but I understand the downsides mentioned, and would be happy with (b) =
instead.
> =20
>=20
> Right now, it seems like 2a or 2b is our best options, mixed with =
resetting the stream.  In other words, if I'm a browser, I'd do =
something like:
>=20
> function handle_data(sid, data) {
>   if (is_open_message(data)) {
>     var info =3D get_stream_info(data)
>     var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_ondatachannel(sid, info)
>     fire_ondata(sid, buffered_data)
>   } else if (has_known_stream(sid)) {
>     fire_ondata(sid, data)
>   } else if (buffer_has_space(sid)) {
>     add_to_buffer(sid, data)
>   } else {
>     var buffered_data =3D clear_buffer(sid)
>     fire_unknownchannelerror_in_js(sid, buffered_data)
>     reset_stream(sid)
>   }
> }
>=20
>=20
> Are there other options I'm missing or didn't understand?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson =
<martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 April 2013 09:39, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> > the Open *will* eventually get through unless you have
> > 100% (or virtually so) packet loss
>=20
> I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.  If you want to talk odds,
> that's fine, but I think that you'll find that this sort of error is
> far more likely than you realize.  We're talking the probability of
> incoming data exceeding a given threshold prior to an open being
> delivered.  After all, unless you have 0% loss, the *possible* maximum
> amount of data is infinite.  Though large numbers might be of
> relatively low probability on an individual basis, operating at scale
> you are going to encounter surprising spikes.
>=20
> > I honestly feel it's ok to just buffer all incoming packets while =
waiting for the Open.
>=20
> That's not a warm fuzzy that I share.
>=20
> > No one is going to get a gigabyte of data in without an Open...  A
> > non-browser could fake up a session and start sending data without =
ever
> > sending an Open... but flushing the data doesn't actually help you =
against
> > that sort of active DOS (they can just start again, they can spread =
it
> > across thousands of channels, etc, etc), and there are FAR better =
DOS
> > methods - all this would do is burn some CPU and some memory.
>=20
> I think that would be a mistake.  This isn't about denial of service,
> it's about genuine usage cases that encounter errors.  The receiver
> can't use the receive window to apply back pressure if they are
> reading from the stream to look for the open message, so you end up
> with an unbounded amount of data.  The amount of data will scale with
> bandwidth delay product.  A long, fat pipe might burn more CPU and
> memory than you are willing to tolerate.
>=20
> Then it comes down to what experience you want to provide to the
> unfortunates who encounter this problem.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list =
rtcweb@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
References: <CA+9kkMA4JGWULm37tfLfDLN1y47wx7bYC4ciqdkLrtAnVW1d5Q@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W672DE1613C07855C081A7893C50@phx.gbl> <516328C9.7070506@jesup.org> <516FBF34.1070500@ericsson.com> <BLU169-W43A8B1629A0E100B64583693C90@phx.gbl> <517545DE.5060208@ericsson.com> <CAOqqYVEF=9uEWDCfBNZQhYgwws67wyJBaugPNCrarujVJK7oqQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUHQLExHwsS4DMTp1FX_NG=e+rS6id0=ZJHDYYvF11g7bg@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com>, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Minutes for the Data Channel Presentations
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Ok,

so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you consider this to be
captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actual draft?

Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket +1 or I support
statements on the mic without making clear what one supports.

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which includes
> what Harald just said:
> 
> - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual data
> channels are not mentioned in the SDP.
> - The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.
> - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used by the
> browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.
> - There is an in-band "OPEN" message, but it is optional.
> 
> That's what I support.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com
> <mailto:hta@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>     It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)
> 
>     I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of
>     SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.
> 
> 
> 
>     On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund
>     <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Harald and Peter,
> 
>         Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
> 
>         Cheers
> 
>         Magnus
> 
>         On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>         > Magnus said:
>         >
>         >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context
>         and the
>         >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer.
>         If not I
>         >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please
>         be explicit
>         >> about what should be changed.
>         >>
>         >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
>         >>
>         >
>         >
>         > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
>         > (draftÂ­jesupÂ­rtcwebÂ­dataÂ­protocolÂ­04)  is great.
>         >
>         > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the
>         presentation
>         > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from
>         SDP, which
>         > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
>         >
>         > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got
>         data channel
>         > negotiation out of the document.
>         >
>         > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting
>         up data
>         > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps
>         referring to
>         > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
> 
> 
>         --
> 
>         Magnus Westerlund
> 
>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>         <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
>         FÃ¤rÃ¶gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>         <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
>         SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto:
>         magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
FÃ¤rÃ¶gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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Thanks,

I fully support this argument, why you can't start using the PT as an
identifier to which purpose or specific negotiated set of constraints
within a common RTP session this SSRC relates to.

I would however note that this discussion would be better to hold on the
MMUSIC list, especially as it does apply to a statement in BUNDLE which
I believe must be changed:

Se Section 7.2 of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-03

 o  - The dynamic payload type values used in the "m=" lines MUST NOT
      overlap.

This restriction I think must be changed. I will now forward this email
to MMUSIC as comment on BUNDLE.

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-04-23 23:03, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote:
> You can easily exhaust the dynamic payload type number space (96-127)
> with only a few media lines, not 30. Keep in mind the primary purpose
> of payload type is to negotiate codecs, not demux different streams.
> An offer from a highly interoperable product will contain many
> payload types for each stream. It is not uncommon to support 8+
> payload types and 4+ streams, which quickly exhausts the dynamic
> space. Also keep in mind that many codecs have different
> configurations that are expressed as different payload types, so even
> supporting a single audio and video codec can yield many payload
> types if those codecs are highly configurable.
> 
> Consider a very simple product (smartphone) in a very simple use case
> (3-way video chat). It supports several audio codecs (OPUS, AAC-LD,
> AMR-WB, AMR-NB, G.711) and several video codecs (VP8, VP9, H.264,
> H.265). It supports several H.264 profiles (BP, HP, SBP, SHP) and
> packetization modes (0, 1). This already exhausts all 32 dynamic
> payload types, before we even consider things like FEC, scalable or
> simulcast layers sent via MST, screen sharing, multiple cameras,
> etc.
> 
> So I would strongly discourage folks from assuming payload type demux
> is viable in most use cases. It may be viable when there is a single
> audio and video stream, each using a single codec and configuration.
> But it quickly becomes impractical or impossible when the product
> gets more capable or the use case gets more interesting.
> 
> Mo
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dale R. Worley Sent:
> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:58 PM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re:
> [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
> 
>> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>> 
>> On 22 April 2013 15:15, Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
>>> My understanding is that associating an incoming RTP packet with
>>> an m= line is a solved problem -- the transport association on
>>> which the packet arrives determines the bundle, and (within all
>>> of the currently active bundling proposals) the payload type
>>> tells which m= line within the bundle.
>> 
>> Not so.  If you have five PTs on each m= line, and 30 m= lines,
>> you just don't have that many PTs available.  At some point you
>> have to recognize that SSRC is what you have to use.  (Neither
>> number is extraordinary.)
> 
> But why would you use 30 m= lines?  You'd only have 30 streams in a 
> videoconference-type situation, where the streams don't have
> distinct roles and so don't need to be given role labels.  As far as
> I know, current videoconference systems don't put each video stream
> in a separate m= line.
> 
> Dale _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing
> list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb 
> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list 
> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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--_3aabc3c5-82d2-40a5-bf31-11f1ed351705_
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Michael said:
> I guess you are considering the case where the OPEN message was dropped b=
y the network multiple times... [BA] Right.  That's the case in which the d=
etails of the OPEN transport makes a difference.
=20
> The sender and receiver normally bound the memory for processing data (so=
cket buffers). So
> your above only applies if the send buffer is larger than 9.6 MB.  [BA] T=
he assumption is that the receiving application processes the incoming data=
=2C so that the RWIN does not decrease.  If the data is sent unordered and =
unreliable=2C and is acknowledged by SACK chunks (e.g. only the OPEN is los=
t)=2C the sender can send this much data (assuming that it has that much to=
 send).   > Often=2C the send and receiver buffer are the same and reflect =
the RWIN=2C so you are considering on the receiver side a 16 KB buffer=2C o=
n the sender side a 10 MB buffer. [BA] No.  You can have 16 KB on both side=
s and the sender can end up sending this much=2C as long as the data isn't =
lost and the receiving application keeps processing it.  Because of that th=
e RWIN does not limit the sender.=20
  		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
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{
margin:0px=3B
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font-size: 12pt=3B
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--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Michael said:<br>&gt=3B I guess =
you are considering the case where the OPEN message was dropped by the netw=
ork multiple times...<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>[BA] Right.&nbsp=3B That's the case in=
 which&nbsp=3Bthe details of the&nbsp=3BOPEN transport makes a difference.<=
br>&nbsp=3B<br>&gt=3B The sender and receiver normally bound the memory for=
 processing data (socket buffers). So<br>&gt=3B your above only applies if =
the send buffer is larger than 9.6 MB. <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>[BA] The assumption =
is that the receiving application processes the incoming data=2C so that th=
e RWIN&nbsp=3Bdoes not decrease.&nbsp=3B If the data is sent unordered and =
unreliable=2C and is acknowledged by SACK chunks (e.g. only the OPEN is los=
t)=2C the sender can send this much data (assuming that it has that much to=
 send).&nbsp=3B <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B Often=2C the send and&nbsp=3Breceive=
r buffer are the same and reflect the RWIN=2C so you are considering on the=
 receiver side a 16 KB buffer=2C on the sender side a 10 MB buffer.<BR>&nbs=
p=3B<BR>[BA] No.&nbsp=3B You can have 16 KB on both sides and the sender ca=
n end up sending this much=2C as long as the data isn't lost and the receiv=
ing application keeps processing it.&nbsp=3B Because of that the RWIN does =
not limit the sender. <BR><br>&nbsp=3B<BR> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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From matthew@matthew.at  Wed Apr 24 08:19:15 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/21/2013 10:21 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> On 4/11/2013 4:04 PM, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
>> #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>>
>>   Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol:
>>
>>   All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.
>>
>>
>
> Ok, I've read the document and the whole discussion.
>
> Why do we need DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages?
>
> I can't understand the value of any of the things in there except 
> possibly the "Label" field, which is allowed to be empty anyway(?)
>

Today's additional messages have failed to answer my question above. If 
there's no answer, then I propose we get rid of it.

Matthew Kaufman

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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org>, <516CE3EC.2050804@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnVaTOLa-hs7AtEgaTk7eq00bEkCY+_8L96Y8pooqybBxA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFgxLT3-1HehKbg5byzifFi4Obe3XW9G4sbWRbnU+Hi1A@mail.gmail.com>, <CABkgnnXr85LZyJiSF+ok2KMS_xQnS0CE4VBq4PvEhBBscn2QZQ@mail.gmail.com>, <516F1AF9.2080301@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnVtUjk4jSDVioxQnrt-b69Hx0nZLefs7tpEzETSmLXeNA@mail.gmail.com>, <516F9A5A.6080402@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnWrAMnm5fTWCNA1jqC_8Js0a6ewfSkvni4xg0E6rXdCtA@mail.gmail.com>, <5170247F.4090908@alvestrand.no>, <CABkgnnXU4HeJT-QwDcJ5NTvr72gZXxXi5zHFkQjJS__UXqzvtQ@mail.gmail.com>, <206CB075-6754-4578-B623-866E410DACCC@lurchi.franken.de>, <CABkgnnUCXUH+0a+F1LVQVrtL=Q65HGgsdT-oBBF++zSVR4OhWw@mail.gmail.com>, <5171734E.3050300@jesup.org>, <CABkgnnW0V7Sjx27Ff7CHANLqPifRLMDNatqD=VgPOB+d-iR+4A@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUGQyuKA_DxSOPfsWqCnkSRd=_Qzkir+r0-27oprCz6=sw@mail.gmail.com>, <CAJrXDUFpWHWN5AD7mP6G0y+gdeYc04WjK4ofLSgKG2MfZ16nvQ@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169, -W114DF9A01E2132B4B51167F93B50@phx.gbl>, <A012A773-415A-4C93-9D0C-D48590204A7C@lurchi.franken.de> <BLU169-W7347A95F3FEFE5C7C9F86093B50@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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On Apr 24, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> Michael said:
> > I guess you are considering the case where the OPEN message was =
dropped by the network multiple times...
> =20
> [BA] Right.  That's the case in which the details of the OPEN =
transport makes a difference.
> =20
> > The sender and receiver normally bound the memory for processing =
data (socket buffers). So
> > your above only applies if the send buffer is larger than 9.6 MB.=20
> =20
> [BA] The assumption is that the receiving application processes the =
incoming data, so that the RWIN does not decrease.  If the data is sent =
unordered and unreliable, and is acknowledged by SACK chunks (e.g. only =
the OPEN is lost), the sender can send this much data (assuming that it =
has that much to send). =20
That is right for the receiver. But the sender has to buffer the sent =
messages until they
are acknowledged by the cumack, not only by SACK gat reports. So if the =
OPEN message
was lost, it is not acked and no TSN after it can be cumacked, only =
gap-acked. That
is why the sender can't remove it from its send buffer. So the limiting =
point is
the send buffer size of the sender, not a buffer on the receiver side.
> =20
> > Often, the send and receiver buffer are the same and reflect the =
RWIN, so you are considering on the receiver side a 16 KB buffer, on the =
sender side a 10 MB buffer.
> =20
> [BA] No.  You can have 16 KB on both sides and the sender can end up =
sending this much, as long as the data isn't lost and the receiving =
application keeps processing it.  Because of that the RWIN does not =
limit the sender.=20
No. If the send buffer is 16 KB, the sender can only hold up to 16 KB =
for retransmissions. It has
to buffer TSNs, even if they are gap acked since they can be reneged.
The only way around this is to use the NR-SACK extension (which allows =
to gap ack
TSN's indicating that they won't be reneged), but this is not an RFC =
yet...

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> =20


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I considered the slides to represent what I support.  I'll try to be more
specific at the mic next time.  But I guess if I could go back I would say
"I support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose the SID, the
optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only negotiates the
existence and transport of data channels, not individual data channels".


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Ok,
>
> so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you consider this to be
> captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actual draft?
>
> Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket +1 or I support
> statements on the mic without making clear what one supports.
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus
>
> On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> > I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which includes
> > what Harald just said:
> >
> > - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual data
> > channels are not mentioned in the SDP.
> > - The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.
> > - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used by the
> > browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.
> > - There is an in-band "OPEN" message, but it is optional.
> >
> > That's what I support.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com
> > <mailto:hta@google.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)
> >
> >     I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of
> >     SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP=
.
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund
> >     <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         Harald and Peter,
> >
> >         Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
> >
> >         Cheers
> >
> >         Magnus
> >
> >         On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> >         > Magnus said:
> >         >
> >         >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the context
> >         and the
> >         >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it clearer=
.
> >         If not I
> >         >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please
> >         be explicit
> >         >> about what should be changed.
> >         >>
> >         >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
> >         >>
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's
> proposal
> >         > (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04=
)  is great.
> >         >
> >         > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the
> >         presentation
> >         > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from
> >         SDP, which
> >         > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
> >         >
> >         > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got
> >         data channel
> >         > negotiation out of the document.
> >         >
> >         > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about setting
> >         up data
> >         > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps
> >         referring to
> >         > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >
> >         Magnus Westerlund
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >         Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >         Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> >         <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
> >         F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> >         <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
> >         SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto:
> >         magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >         <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--001a11c1d878a8618004db245bc3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I considered the slides to represent what I support. =C2=
=A0I&#39;ll try to be more specific at the mic next time. =C2=A0But I guess=
 if I could go back I would say &quot;I support the symmetric SID, the opti=
on for JS to choose the SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fac=
t that SDP only negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, no=
t individual data channels&quot;.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2=
4, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@eri=
csson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ok,<br>
<br>
so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you consider this to be<br=
>
captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actual draft?<br>
<br>
Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket +1 or I support<br=
>
statements on the mic without making clear what one supports.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:<br>
&gt; I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which include=
s<br>
&gt; what Harald just said:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual data<br>
&gt; channels are not mentioned in the SDP.<br>
&gt; - The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.<br>
&gt; - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used by the=
<br>
&gt; browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.<br>
&gt; - There is an in-band &quot;OPEN&quot; message, but it is optional.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That&#39;s what I support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:hta@google.com">hta@google.com</a><br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hta@google.com">h=
ta@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It clearly wasn&#39;t clear to Bernard either :-)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiatin=
g usage of<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels=
 in the SDP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Harald and Peter,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Can you bring any clarity on what you supp=
orted?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:<=
br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Magnus said:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; I have now updated the minutes tr=
ying to clarify the context<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; corrections. Please check if you =
think this makes it clearer.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If not I<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; am happy to introduce additional =
clarifications, but please<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be explicit<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; about what should be changed.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/pr=
oceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.o=
rg/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Peter Thatcher commented that he thin=
ks the presenter&#39;s proposal<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADda=
ta=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04) =C2=A0is great.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [BA] My impression was that this rema=
rk more related to the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; suggestions relating to removing of s=
tream negotiation from<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SDP, which<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; isn&#39;t covered in draft-jesup-rtcw=
eb-data-protocol-04.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agre=
e with this. Glad got<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data channel<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; negotiation out of the document.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [BA] =C2=A0Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-d=
ata-protocol is about setting<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 up data<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; channels this doesn&#39;t make sense =
to me. =C2=A0Was Harald perhaps<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 referring to<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; getting data channel negotiation &quo=
t;out of SDP&quot;?<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus Westerlund<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research=
 EAB/TVM<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%20714828=
7" value=3D"+46107148287">+46 10 7148287</a><br>
</div></div>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;tel:%2B46%2010%207148287&g=
t;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile <a href=3D"=
tel:%2B46%2073%200949079" value=3D"+46730949079">+46 73 0949079</a><br>
</div>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;tel:%2B46%2073%200949079&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Swe=
den| mailto:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericss=
on.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
</div>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.=
westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =
=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+46107148287">+46 10 71=
48287</a><br>
F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0| Mobile <a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2073%200949079" value=3D"+46730949079">+46=
 73 0949079</a><br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@er=
icsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c1d878a8618004db245bc3--

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If you propose getting rid of it, you still need to answer the question:
 what does the browser do with incoming data for an SID that hasn't been
registered by the receiver?  It's almost the same question.


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote:

> On 4/21/2013 10:21 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2013 4:04 PM, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
>>
>>> #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>>>
>>>   Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-**protocol:
>>>
>>>   All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Ok, I've read the document and the whole discussion.
>>
>> Why do we need DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages?
>>
>> I can't understand the value of any of the things in there except
>> possibly the "Label" field, which is allowed to be empty anyway(?)
>>
>>
> Today's additional messages have failed to answer my question above. If
> there's no answer, then I propose we get rid of it.
>
>
> Matthew Kaufman
> ______________________________**_________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>
>

--047d7bacc706756d6b04db2485dc
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<div dir=3D"ltr">If you propose getting rid of it, you still need to answer=
 the question: =C2=A0what does the browser do with incoming data for an SID=
 that hasn&#39;t been registered by the receiver? =C2=A0It&#39;s almost the=
 same question.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2=
4, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Matthew Kaufman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:matthew@matthew.at" target=3D"_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 4/21/2013 10:21 PM, Mat=
thew Kaufman wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 4/11/2013 4:04 PM, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
#13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 Comment on draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-<u></u>protocol:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 All DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages MUST be sent reliably and in-order.<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok, I&#39;ve read the document and the whole discussion.<br>
<br>
Why do we need DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages?<br>
<br>
I can&#39;t understand the value of any of the things in there except possi=
bly the &quot;Label&quot; field, which is allowed to be empty anyway(?)<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Today&#39;s additional messages have failed to answer my question above. If=
 there&#39;s no answer, then I propose we get rid of it.<div class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
Matthew Kaufman<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Cc: Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com>, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Minutes for the Data Channel Presentations
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Hi,

I have uploaded new minutes with the paragraph in question now reading:

Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
(draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04)  is great. (After the meeting
Peter has clarified that is was the content of the slides and to be
precise â€œI support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose the
SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only
negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individual
data channelsâ€.)

Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this (Afterwards clarified
as: â€œI supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of
SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.â€).
Glad got data channel negotiation out of the document. There are no
existing implementation this has to interwork with - this is all new.
Any protocol has to define how to work on top of this and map. Not
RTCWEB business to define this.

Are everyone satisfied now?

The possibility make any more changes to the minutes closes on the first
of May.

Cheers

Magnus



On 2013-04-25 02:17, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> I considered the slides to represent what I support.  I'll try to be
> more specific at the mic next time.  But I guess if I could go back I
> would say "I support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose the
> SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only
> negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individual
> data channels".
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund
> <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>>
> wrote:
> 
>     Ok,
> 
>     so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you consider this to be
>     captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actual draft?
> 
>     Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket +1 or I support
>     statements on the mic without making clear what one supports.
> 
>     Cheers
> 
>     Magnus
> 
>     On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>     > I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which
>     includes
>     > what Harald just said:
>     >
>     > - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual data
>     > channels are not mentioned in the SDP.
>     > - The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.
>     > - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used by the
>     > browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.
>     > - There is an in-band "OPEN" message, but it is optional.
>     >
>     > That's what I support.
>     >
>     >
>     > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com
>     <mailto:hta@google.com>
>     > <mailto:hta@google.com <mailto:hta@google.com>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)
>     >
>     >     I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usage of
>     >     SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in
>     the SDP.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund
>     >     <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
>     >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         Harald and Peter,
>     >
>     >         Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
>     >
>     >         Cheers
>     >
>     >         Magnus
>     >
>     >         On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>     >         > Magnus said:
>     >         >
>     >         >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the
>     context
>     >         and the
>     >         >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it
>     clearer.
>     >         If not I
>     >         >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but please
>     >         be explicit
>     >         >> about what should be changed.
>     >         >>
>     >         >>
>     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
>     >         >>
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >         > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's
>     proposal
>     >         > (draftÂ­jesupÂ­rtcwebÂ­dataÂ­protocolÂ­04)  is great.
>     >         >
>     >         > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to the
>     >         presentation
>     >         > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation from
>     >         SDP, which
>     >         > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
>     >         >
>     >         > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad got
>     >         data channel
>     >         > negotiation out of the document.
>     >         >
>     >         > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about
>     setting
>     >         up data
>     >         > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald perhaps
>     >         referring to
>     >         > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >
>     >
>     >         --
>     >
>     >         Magnus Westerlund
>     >
>     >        
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >         Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>     >        
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >         Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>     <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
>     >         <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
>     >         FÃ¤rÃ¶gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>     <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
>     >         <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
>     >         SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto:
>     >         magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
>     >         <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>>
>     >        
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     >
>     >
> 
> 
>     --
> 
>     Magnus Westerlund
> 
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>     <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
>     FÃ¤rÃ¶gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>     <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
>     SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
FÃ¤rÃ¶gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fluffy@iii.ca  Thu Apr 25 08:57:21 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion =
on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable =
as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd =
like to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which =
indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make =
such an expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.

Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>



From alan.b.johnston@gmail.com  Thu Apr 25 09:39:37 2013
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From: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:39:30 -0400
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I'm not a fan of SDES. However, I've come to believe that we need it for two=
 reasons.=20

1. There is a backwards compatibility reason. There are deployed systems of S=
RTP that use SDES or a key agreement that easily maps to it. Just as we allo=
wed G.711 for these systems, it seems reasonable to allow SDES as well. When=
 combined with ICE Lite in a media gateway, this is a scalable interop appro=
ach.=20

2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases where th=
e JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use. Since JSEP uses=
 SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. Obviously it is a bad idea t=
o send this key over unsecured channels, but this is separate from this API i=
ssue.=20

And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and only thus=
 mode should be considered "secure" using whatever user interface a browser c=
hooses.=20

- Alan -



On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

>=20
> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion on=
 whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a k=
eying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to ha=
ve expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate the g=
eneral outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expression=
 of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>=20
> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From pthatcher@google.com  Thu Apr 25 10:38:01 2013
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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:37:20 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Minutes for the Data Channel Presentations
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I'm happy with that.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have uploaded new minutes with the paragraph in question now reading:
>
> Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's proposal
> (draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04)  is great. (After the meeting
> Peter has clarified that is was the content of the slides and to be
> precise =E2=80=9CI support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose=
 the
> SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only
> negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individual
> data channels=E2=80=9D.)
>
> Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this (Afterwards clarified
> as: =E2=80=9CI supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating us=
age of
> SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.=E2=
=80=9D).
> Glad got data channel negotiation out of the document. There are no
> existing implementation this has to interwork with - this is all new.
> Any protocol has to define how to work on top of this and map. Not
> RTCWEB business to define this.
>
> Are everyone satisfied now?
>
> The possibility make any more changes to the minutes closes on the first
> of May.
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus
>
>
>
> On 2013-04-25 02:17, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> > I considered the slides to represent what I support.  I'll try to be
> > more specific at the mic next time.  But I guess if I could go back I
> > would say "I support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose the
> > SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only
> > negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individual
> > data channels".
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund
> > <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>=
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >     Ok,
> >
> >     so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you consider this
> to be
> >     captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actual draft?
> >
> >     Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket +1 or I
> support
> >     statements on the mic without making clear what one supports.
> >
> >     Cheers
> >
> >     Magnus
> >
> >     On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> >     > I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando, and which
> >     includes
> >     > what Harald just said:
> >     >
> >     > - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and individual dat=
a
> >     > channels are not mentioned in the SDP.
> >     > - The send and receive SID are the same for a given data channel.
> >     > - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mechanism is used b=
y
> the
> >     > browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the JS.
> >     > - There is an in-band "OPEN" message, but it is optional.
> >     >
> >     > That's what I support.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.co=
m
> >     <mailto:hta@google.com>
> >     > <mailto:hta@google.com <mailto:hta@google.com>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     It clearly wasn't clear to Bernard either :-)
> >     >
> >     >     I supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating
> usage of
> >     >     SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in
> >     the SDP.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magnus Westerlund
> >     >     <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> >     >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >         Harald and Peter,
> >     >
> >     >         Can you bring any clarity on what you supported?
> >     >
> >     >         Cheers
> >     >
> >     >         Magnus
> >     >
> >     >         On 2013-04-20 03:04, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> >     >         > Magnus said:
> >     >         >
> >     >         >> I have now updated the minutes trying to clarify the
> >     context
> >     >         and the
> >     >         >> corrections. Please check if you think this makes it
> >     clearer.
> >     >         If not I
> >     >         >> am happy to introduce additional clarifications, but
> please
> >     >         be explicit
> >     >         >> about what should be changed.
> >     >         >>
> >     >         >>
> >     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/minutes-86-rtcweb
> >     >         >>
> >     >         >
> >     >         >
> >     >         > Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter's
> >     proposal
> >     >         > (draft=C2=ADjesup=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=
=C2=AD04)  is great.
> >     >         >
> >     >         > [BA] My impression was that this remark more related to
> the
> >     >         presentation
> >     >         > suggestions relating to removing of stream negotiation
> from
> >     >         SDP, which
> >     >         > isn't covered in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.
> >     >         >
> >     >         > Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this. Glad
> got
> >     >         data channel
> >     >         > negotiation out of the document.
> >     >         >
> >     >         > [BA]  Since draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about
> >     setting
> >     >         up data
> >     >         > channels this doesn't make sense to me.  Was Harald
> perhaps
> >     >         referring to
> >     >         > getting data channel negotiation "out of SDP"?
> >     >         >
> >     >         >
> >     >         >
> >     >         >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >         --
> >     >
> >     >         Magnus Westerlund
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     >         Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> >     >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     >         Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> >     <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
> >     >         <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
> >     >         F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949=
079
> >     <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
> >     >         <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
> >     >         SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto:
> >     >         magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> >     >         <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>>
> >     >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >
> >     Magnus Westerlund
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> >     <tel:%2B46%2010%207148287>
> >     F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> >     <tel:%2B46%2073%200949079>
> >     SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >     <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--047d7b6d826e38242b04db32e152
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m happy with that.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Magnus =
Westerlund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericss=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
I have uploaded new minutes with the paragraph in question now reading:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
Peter Thatcher commented that he thinks the presenter&#39;s proposal<br>
</div>(draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04) =C2=A0is great. (After the meet=
ing<br>
Peter has clarified that is was the content of the slides and to be<br>
precise =E2=80=9CI support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choose t=
he<br>
<div class=3D"im">SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that=
 SDP only<br>
negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individual<br>
</div>data channels=E2=80=9D.)<br>
<br>
Harald Alvestrand stated that he Agree with this (Afterwards clarified<br>
as: =E2=80=9CI supported what draft-jesup was suggesting - negotiating usag=
e of<br>
SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning individual data channels in the SDP.=E2=80=
=9D).<br>
Glad got data channel negotiation out of the document. There are no<br>
existing implementation this has to interwork with - this is all new.<br>
Any protocol has to define how to work on top of this and map. Not<br>
RTCWEB business to define this.<br>
<br>
Are everyone satisfied now?<br>
<br>
The possibility make any more changes to the minutes closes on the first<br=
>
of May.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 2013-04-25 02:17, Peter Thatcher wrote:<br>
&gt; I considered the slides to represent what I support. =C2=A0I&#39;ll tr=
y to be<br>
&gt; more specific at the mic next time. =C2=A0But I guess if I could go ba=
ck I<br>
&gt; would say &quot;I support the symmetric SID, the option for JS to choo=
se the<br>
&gt; SID, the optional in-band OPEN message, and the fact that SDP only<br>
&gt; negotiates the existence and transport of data channels, not individua=
l<br>
&gt; data channels&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund<br>
</div>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.wes=
terlund@ericsson.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@eri=
csson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ok,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 so what do you want me to put in the minutes? Do you con=
sider this to be<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 captured in the slide set, or some slides or in the actu=
al draft?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Just want to be clear and maybe discourage these blanket=
 +1 or I support<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 statements on the mic without making clear what one supp=
orts.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 2013-04-23 20:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I support the proposal that we agreed to in Orlando=
, and which<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 includes<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; what Harald just said:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; - SCTP is in SDP only to set up the transport, and =
individual data<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; channels are not mentioned in the SDP.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; - The send and receive SID are the same for a given=
 data channel.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; - The JS can specify the SID, and an even/odd mecha=
nism is used by the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; browser for selecting the SID if not chosen by the =
JS.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; - There is an in-band &quot;OPEN&quot; message, but=
 it is optional.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; That&#39;s what I support.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hta@google.com">hta@google.com</a><br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hta@google.com">hta@google.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:hta@google.com">hta@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hta@googl=
e.com">hta@google.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It clearly wasn&#39;t clear to Bernar=
d either :-)<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I supported what draft-jesup was sugg=
esting - negotiating usage of<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SCTP in SDP, and not mentioning indiv=
idual data channels in<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SDP.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Magn=
us Westerlund<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlu=
nd@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Harald and Peter,<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Can you bring any clari=
ty on what you supported?<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 2013-04-20 03:04, Be=
rnard Aboba wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Magnus said:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; I have now upd=
ated the minutes trying to clarify the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 context<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; corrections. P=
lease check if you think this makes it<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clearer.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If not I<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; am happy to in=
troduce additional clarifications, but please<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be explicit<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; about what sho=
uld be changed.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minutes/mi=
nutes-86-rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/minut=
es/minutes-86-rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Peter Thatcher com=
mented that he thinks the presenter&#39;s<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposal<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; (draft=C2=ADjesup=
=C2=ADrtcweb=C2=ADdata=C2=ADprotocol=C2=AD04) =C2=A0is great.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [BA] My impression=
 was that this remark more related to the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; suggestions relati=
ng to removing of stream negotiation from<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SDP, which<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; isn&#39;t covered =
in draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Harald Alvestrand =
stated that he Agree with this. Glad got<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data channel<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; negotiation out of=
 the document.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [BA] =C2=A0Since d=
raft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol is about<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 setting<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 up data<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; channels this does=
n&#39;t make sense to me. =C2=A0Was Harald perhaps<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 referring to<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; getting data chann=
el negotiation &quot;out of SDP&quot;?<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus Westerlund<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multimedia Technologies=
, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%=
2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+46107148287">+46 10 7148287</a><br>
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&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sw=
eden| mailto:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:magnu=
s.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br=
>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus Westerlund<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+4=
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agnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
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com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone =
=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2010%207148287" value=3D"+46107148287">+46 10 71=
48287</a><br>
F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0| Mobile <a href=3D"tel:%2B46%2073%200949079" value=3D"+46730949079">+46=
 73 0949079</a><br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@er=
icsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b6d826e38242b04db32e152--

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Thu Apr 25 11:10:53 2013
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To: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I agree with Alan. At this point, at least one implementation supports both S=
RTP/SDES as well as DTLS/SRTP and I think this approach is probably the best=
 way forward.

On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:39 AM, "Alan Johnston" <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> wro=
te:

> I'm not a fan of SDES. However, I've come to believe that we need it for t=
wo reasons.=20
>=20
> 1. There is a backwards compatibility reason. There are deployed systems o=
f SRTP that use SDES or a key agreement that easily maps to it. Just as we a=
llowed G.711 for these systems, it seems reasonable to allow SDES as well. W=
hen combined with ICE Lite in a media gateway, this is a scalable interop ap=
proach.=20
>=20
> 2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases where t=
he JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use. Since JSEP use=
s SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. Obviously it is a bad idea t=
o send this key over unsecured channels, but this is separate from this API i=
ssue.=20
>=20
> And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and only th=
us mode should be considered "secure" using whatever user interface a browse=
r chooses.=20
>=20
> - Alan -
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion o=
n whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a=
 keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to h=
ave expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate the g=
eneral outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expression=
 of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>>=20
>> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From Kalyani.Bogineni@VerizonWireless.com  Thu Apr 25 13:22:41 2013
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From: "Bogineni, Kalyani" <Kalyani.Bogineni@VerizonWireless.com>
To: 'Cullen Jennings' <fluffy@iii.ca>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:20:41 -0400
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.

Kalyani Bogineni
Verizon

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Cullen Jennings
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb


The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion on =
whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a =
keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to =
have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate th=
e general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expres=
sion of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.

Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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To: "Bogineni, Kalyani" <Kalyani.Bogineni@VerizonWireless.com>, "'Cullen Jennings'" <fluffy@iii.ca>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript is cr=
itical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with SDP as the=
 API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.

Matthew Kaufman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>=20
> We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.
>=20
> Kalyani Bogineni
> Verizon
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>=20
>=20
> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion
> on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable
> as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd l=
ike
> to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indica=
te
> the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an
> expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>=20
> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
Thread-Index: AQHOQflBi1erDoB5e0Kx1cZ1sYRwVA==
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:10:04 +0000
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References: <066.3120a55540cacaa74ee5fda0b5273a48@trac.tools.ietf.org> <5174C8D2.40504@matthew.at> <5177F7EE.1010909@matthew.at> <CAJrXDUGa1=Nqq9WPL57=OkUU9mG7yHz0uzG1KncS8yVzbSAM0A@mail.gmail.com> <AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A484162816C1@tk5ex14mbxc272.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
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So with my co-chair hat on here=85=20

It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and have come =
to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:

1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think we need O=
PEN=20

2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with unexpected data =
before the OPEN=20

Cullen=20



On Apr 24, 2013, at 11:28 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) <matthew.kaufman@skyp=
e.net> wrote:

> I=92d still love to hear why it is =93needed=94 though.
> =20
> Matthew Kaufman


From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Thu Apr 25 14:42:53 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
> So with my co-chair hat on here…
>
> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and have come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
>
> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think we need OPEN

The Open message has some important and useful properties:

1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing 
network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a large 
portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it really easy 
for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream them want with 
little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs they're already 
used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label field will avoid the 
JS programmer having to build their own mini-protocol to identify their 
channels (and this is especially painful for them if it's an unreliable 
channel).

2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange data, by 
having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and there was 
strong agreement on it's being needed for that at Atlanta.)  With 
external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for different apps to 
interoperate, since they'd need to agree on negotiation protocols as 
well, which are likely to be highly divergent between apps.

3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes the 
issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data that 
arrives unexpectedly) simpler.  With Open, only degenerate cases can 
cause more than a relatively small amount of data to be buffered.  With 
external notification, the external negotiation channel can fail (or be 
very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the negotiated 
values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering requirements - or you 
punt the problem to the application by delivering the data, but the 
application is facing the same conundrum of buffer it or throw it away.

> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with unexpected data before the OPEN


The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external 
negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).

*tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that 
would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with 
Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below.  I also would be ok 
with B, but I realize others may not be.

Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of 
dynamic channels must use one of these:

A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready to 
receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or

B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages are 
delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or

C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with data 
being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are exceeded, or

D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I 
don't know what with it.

For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading to 
hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open or 
external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to open.

Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios -- and in 
fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it reduces the 
problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered channels (in ordered 
channels Open will always be first).

Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It 
means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a new 
channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to start 
sending data on that channel.  Note that with external negotiation 
(possibly on a non p2p path, like via signaling), the receiver might not 
know what to install for a short while, especially if there's a routing 
issue or server issue (not a problem that happens with Open).

Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this 
problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems 
reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small 
buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that 
apps using external negotiation can just send largish data immediately - 
and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely occurrence even 
in most external negotiation cases.  If people want to bikeshed on the 
buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)

Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a trivial 
amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving 
side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external 
negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).


-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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From: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.

This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It seems =
that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an SDES keying =
mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize this?

Richard Ejzak

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>=20
> I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
>=20
> Matthew Kaufman
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> WebRTC.
> >
> > Kalyani Bogineni
> > Verizon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> >
> > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
> that
> > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for
> > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> proposed.
> > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to
> the chairs or the list.
> >
> > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From igor.faynberg@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Apr 25 15:06:14 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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+1 (From someone who had proposed this, as an option, 100,000 messages 
before)

Igor
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
>> To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>>
>> We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.
>>
>> Kalyani Bogineni
>> Verizon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
>> Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>>
>>
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion
>> on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable
>> as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like
>> to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate
>> the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an
>> expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>>
>> Cullen, Magnus,&  Ted<The Chairs>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:24 2013
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 25 April 2013 14:55, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
<richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize this?

Data channels use the DTLS record layer, so using SDES for those would
be harder than I think you want.

Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted
using keys provided by security descriptions.

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> I'm not a fan of SDES. However, I've come to believe that we need it =
for two reasons.=20
>=20
> 1. There is a backwards compatibility reason. There are deployed =
systems of SRTP that use SDES or a key agreement that easily maps to it. =
Just as we allowed G.711 for these systems, it seems reasonable to allow =
SDES as well. When combined with ICE Lite in a media gateway, this is a =
scalable interop approach.=20

Interworking at scale can be accomplished without SDES on WEBRTC, as I =
explained at IETF83 in slides 27-35 of =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-rtcweb-3.pdf.

> 2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases =
where the JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use.

DTLS-SRTP with EKT can also perform that function, and does it without =
disclosing the SRTP key to all the SIP proxies and all the web servers =
on the signaling path.

> Since JSEP uses SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. =
Obviously it is a bad idea to send this key over unsecured channels, but =
this is separate from this API issue.=20
>=20
> And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and =
only thus mode should be considered "secure" using whatever user =
interface a browser chooses.=20

But is there a secure mechanism to differentiate browser-to-browser =
calls from browser-to-non-browser calls, so we don't have to worry over =
SDES downgrade attacks?  And for the use-cases where JavaScript has to =
set the key, those will often be browser-to-browser calls, meaning that =
we will have to support browser-to-browser SDES, contrary to your desire =
that browser-to-browser use DTLS-SRTP?  DTLS-SRTP with EKT permits the =
application to set the SRTP key, and more securely than SDES.

-d


>=20
> - Alan -
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further =
discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) =
would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that =
discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for =
that approach which indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  =
If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to the =
chairs or the list.
>>=20
>> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From Mandeep.Singh@mavenir.com  Thu Apr 25 15:19:13 2013
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From: Mandeep Singh <Mandeep.Singh@mavenir.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I believe SDES (besides DTLS-SRTP) is good idea for backward compatibility =
and interoperability reason.
However for browser to browser communication, DTLS-SRTP should be preferred=
.

Mandeep Singh

-----Original Message-----
>=20
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion =
on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as=
 a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like =
to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate=
 the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an exp=
ression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>>=20
>> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/13 17:11, Martin Thomson wrote:
> Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted 
> using keys provided by security descriptions.

The arguments for SDES fall into two categories, AFAICT: (1) Those 
required for interop with legacy devices, and (2) those which we are 
prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering. And there is no possible way 
DataChannels are going to interop with legacy devices.

I agree with Alan that we shouldn't make accommodations to use SDES for 
the brower-to-browser case. By implication, this means that the presence 
of DataChannels necessarily means that we're using DTLS-SRTP for the 
whole session. Given those assumptions, the mixed-session scenario you 
describe does not arise.

/a


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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> From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
> 
> If you have several devices per host (e.g. Multiple cameras) each
> using simulcast or layered coding, are supporting screen
> sharing/data channel/audio+video and also have a single m= line for
> each RTP stream, then this isn't so outlandish.

I was working on an essay based on the assumption that a single video
capture is carried over a single m= line (with the various component
streams (simulcast, FEC, layered encoding, etc.) sent using different
SSRCs)...  But that isn't how existing systems work, and it may not be
workable at all.  It would be nice to correct that, but that probably
isn't the quick way to get products to market.  ;-)

If multiplexing based on payload type is unworkable, how about the
following technique.  (Forgive me if someone else has already proposed
it.)

    Each SSRC is demultiplexed based on an RTCP SDES item that gives
    the mapping between the SSRC and the m= line via which it is
    presented to the application layer (that is, the constituent m=
    line sequence number).

When a media stream with new SSRC is sent, the sender inserts an RTCP
SDES item with a special multiplexing "item type".  The SDES item
contains the SSRC value and the sequence number of the m= line via
which that SSRC is obtained from the application layer.  The sender
resends this SDES item occasionally.

The receiver keeps a table which maps the SSRCs to the m= lines via
which each SSRC is to be presented to the application.  Entries in the
table are added/updated when the multiplexing SDES items are received.

Since SDES items are meant to describe the "source" of the media
stream, using an SDES item to identify how the media is supplied by
the application is close to its intention.  (If one doesn't like that,
we could define another RTCP packet type.)

This mechanism only adds one 8 byte SDES item periodically in the RTCP
(given that RTCP packets often contain SDES packets, so the SDES
packet header isn't charged to multiplexing).  The overhead is reduced
to 4 bytes if the RTCP periodically contains SDES items for the SSRC
anyway.

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
header |V=2|P|    SC   |  PT=SDES=202  |             length            |
       +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
chunk  |                          SSRC                                 |
  1    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |     MUX=11    |     length=1  |0|m= line seq. |  NULL=0       |
       +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
chunk  |                          ...                                  |
  2

With dexterous use of pseudo-UTF-8 encoding to encode sequence
numbers, an 8 byte item suffices for the typical case, but we still
support multiplexing an unlimited number of m= lines, and even support
multiplexing m= lines that specify multiple addresses or ports.

This method allows multiplexing to support whatever use of m= lines
the overlying application supports/requires, since it places no
restrictions on the SDP or RTP usage.

In addition, demultiplexing is stable even while the bundling is
changing due to a new offer/answer exchange, because the SSRC on the
incoming RTP packets will be stable, even while the media stream is
redirected from one transport endpoint (for the old bundle) to another
transport endpoint (for the new bundle).

Dale

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On 25 April 2013 15:20, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/13 17:11, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>
>> Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted
>> using keys provided by security descriptions.
>
> The arguments for SDES fall into two categories, AFAICT: (1) Those required
> for interop with legacy devices, and (2) those which we are prohibited by
> RFC 2804 from considering. And there is no possible way DataChannels are
> going to interop with legacy devices.

That isn't an exhaustive list.  I intend to write down a couple of
other items to add to that list.

> I agree with Alan that we shouldn't make accommodations to use SDES for the
> brower-to-browser case. By implication, this means that the presence of
> DataChannels necessarily means that we're using DTLS-SRTP for the whole
> session. Given those assumptions, the mixed-session scenario you describe
> does not arise.

Regardless of the outcome of above, that's a constraint I'd be willing
to tolerate.

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From: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Legacy devices support more than just audio and video media.  We will need =
to occasionally transport protocols like T.140, MSRP, BFCP, and/or RTSP in =
some cases, and the primary options are to transport them over DataChannels=
 or WebSockets.  A network server will be needed to do transport level inte=
rworking, of course.  It would be useful in these cases to have an SDES opt=
ion for DataChannels.  Not essential, but useful.  End-to-end security is n=
ot even an issue in this case due to the need for transport level interwork=
ing.
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:20 PM
> To: Martin Thomson
> Cc: Ejzak, Richard P (Richard); rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>=20
> On 4/25/13 17:11, Martin Thomson wrote:
> > Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted
> > using keys provided by security descriptions.
>=20
> The arguments for SDES fall into two categories, AFAICT: (1) Those
> required for interop with legacy devices, and (2) those which we are
> prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering. And there is no possible way
> DataChannels are going to interop with legacy devices.
>=20
> I agree with Alan that we shouldn't make accommodations to use SDES for
> the brower-to-browser case. By implication, this means that the
> presence of DataChannels necessarily means that we're using DTLS-SRTP
> for the whole session. Given those assumptions, the mixed-session
> scenario you describe does not arise.
>=20
> /a


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The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's words):

(1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
(2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.

Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:

Performance - A DTLS handshake takes a fair bit of CPU time,
especially on the passive (server) peer, and two round trips.  The CPU
cost might not be that big of a deal (SBC vendors may disagree), but
round trips hurt.

Conferencing Scenarios - Ensuring that streams can be mixed,
translated and still decoded for a multi-leg conference is just easier
with security descriptions.

It's true that conferencing scenarios can be addressed by EKT, but EKT
has similar 2804 properties as security descriptions.  It would not be
permissible to use EKT for a peer identity bound session because it
makes the media accessible to signaling intermediaries (read: the web
site).

As long as you are in that state, EKT doesn't really provide that
much.  Bid-down protection seems lame when the site has access to the
keys.

Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story requires
not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.
Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
descriptions.

The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that
is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  That
means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
even if it can't tamper with it on the network.

I'm sympathetic to having DTLS-SRTP available to enable these secure
scenarios.  That's not at issue.  But the reasons for DTLS-SRTP only
largely come down to just having less code. And seriously, it's not
even that much less.

On 25 April 2013 08:57, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion o=
n whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as =
a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like t=
o have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate =
the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expr=
ession of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>
> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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On 25 April 2013 15:20, Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
> I was working on an essay based on the assumption that a single video
> capture is carried over a single m= line (with the various component
> streams (simulcast, FEC, layered encoding, etc.) sent using different
> SSRCs)...  But that isn't how existing systems work, and it may not be
> workable at all.  It would be nice to correct that, but that probably
> isn't the quick way to get products to market.  ;-)

Unless you count Lync.  It uses one m= line for a
capture/source/hobbit, including layering and FEC.

It's totally workable.  The signaling that Lync uses might cause mild
discomfort or bleeding from the ears for some implementations, but it
can work.

>     Each SSRC is demultiplexed based on an RTCP SDES item that gives
>     the mapping between the SSRC and the m= line via which it is
>     presented to the application layer (that is, the constituent m=
>     line sequence number).

It's been proposed.  I don't know exactly why it wasn't considered
worth pursuing.

Maybe you can ask Peter Thatcher to share his document on demux.  It's
a reasonable taxonomy of the available options. Better than what I'm
able to write up in a short time.

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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>wrote:
[snip]

I think we've discussed most of the topics Martin raises already and I'm
not sure I have much to add (which isn't to say I necessarily agree).

However, I think the below is incorrect and I'm not sure I have made
that point before.


Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
> because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story requires
> not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.
> Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
> descriptions.
>
> The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that
> is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  That
> means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
> even if it can't tamper with it on the network.


It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if you
don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user visible,
which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, if
SDES is used
then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.

-Ekr

--089e0158b35a5d54b404db37a818
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div>[snip]</div><div><br></div><div>I think we=
&#39;ve discussed most of the topics Martin raises already and I&#39;m</div=
>

<div>not sure I have much to add (which isn&#39;t to say I necessarily agre=
e).</div><div><br></div><div>However, I think the below is incorrect and I&=
#39;m not sure I have made</div><div>that point before.</div><div><br>
</div>
<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
Practical Matters of Security - You aren&#39;t necessarily more secure<br>
because you are using DTLS-SRTP. =A0The complete security story requires<br=
>
not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.<br>
Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security<br>
descriptions.<br>
<br>
The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that<br>
is accessible to the web site. =A0The same for RTCPeerConnection. =A0That<b=
r>
means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,<br>
even if it can&#39;t tamper with it on the network.</blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>It&#39;s certainly true that the site has access to the media with=
 DTLS if you</div><div>don&#39;t use identity assertions/isolated streams. =
However, what it doesn&#39;t</div>

<div>have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user vi=
sible,</div><div>which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By=
 contrast, if SDES is used</div><div>then the site can simply passively mon=
itor all your traffic, or at least</div>

<div>any that goes through its network and you can&#39;t detect it.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div></div>

--089e0158b35a5d54b404db37a818--

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On 4/25/2013 7:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Martin Thomson 
> <martin.thomson@gmail.com <mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>     The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that
>     is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  That
>     means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
>     even if it can't tamper with it on the network.
>
>
> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if you
> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user 
> visible,
> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, 
> if SDES is used
> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>

Or they can simply store off the key to be used to offline-decrypt raw 
traffic captured at an ISP, at their leisure.  SDES is basically 
"protect against WiFi sniffers" encryption.  Ironically, Apple's 
messaging stuff apparently uses strong end-to-end encryption (the 
wonders of not caring about legacy interop).

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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On 25 April 2013 16:19, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> I think we've discussed most of the topics Martin raises already and I'm
> not sure I have much to add (which isn't to say I necessarily agree).

I just wanted them on the record.

> However, I think the below is incorrect and I'm not sure I have made
> that point before.
>
>> Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
>> because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story requires
>> not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.
>> Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
>> descriptions.
>>
>> The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that
>> is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  That
>> means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
>> even if it can't tamper with it on the network.
>
> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if you
> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user visible,
> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, if SDES
> is used
> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.

That's a fair point, and one I missed.  My bad.  But it's only
relevant to the extent that it is possible to observe that the
provided certificate is a phony.  It's not like the server is
obligated to provide a particular CN, so it's mostly down to just
looking at fingerprints.

It's also hard to retroactively audit due to the way (current)
implementations mint new certificates for every interaction.  I'm
fairly sure that (current) implementations don't make this
particularly easy to examine in browser chrome, but even if they did
it's hard to imagine a good usability story for accessing the
information.

From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Thu Apr 25 16:40:34 2013
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On 4/25/2013 4:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
> I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.

So, the problems with SDES (discussed to a fare-the-well every 3 months 
for the last 1.75 years or more, so there's nothing really new here):

It exposes security keys directly to the application (or takes them from 
there).  Basically, you're back in "all your media is totally in trust 
to the application and website".  The keys aren't even end-2-end 
encrypted or even authenticated.  And even if you expose SDES bid-downs 
to the user, they don't know what they mean or how to process this 
information.

SDES basically means to me "secure against random WiFi sniffers at the 
coffeeshop", and little more than that.  I realize carriers and others 
like SDES because they make certain uses and obligations easy for them 
to meet, and interop with legacy devices and systems easier (though many 
such legacy interop systems will perforce need gateways anyways, and 
those gateways can convert from DTLS-SRTP to SDES.

Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I see 
the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not 
browser-legacy.  Certainly some large organizations are built around the 
VoIP/net to legacy equipment/PSTN/PBX use-case, and certainly they would 
find SDES easier.

But I think we need to weigh that against the longer term, and the 
interests of the users (not the providers) -- the users aren't generally 
at this table; the IETF is full of people who almost by definition work 
for the companies that provide data and services. (Not everyone, but most.)

I realize there are some (many) who have 
business/organizational/political reasons to avoid end-2-end 
encryption.  However, per IETF norms (RFC 2084) we should not be letting 
that decide this issue.


It's tough to find a way to allow SDES in the "connect to a gateway that 
will decrypt anyways" case, while also avoid bid-down attacks on 
browser-browser communication.  (and EKT has some of the same key 
control issues)

We can say "we enforce DTLS-SRTP only for secure, authenticated" calls 
like ekr presented (with media tainting, etc) - but that mode isn't the 
default and really can't be/won't be for many users and applications, 
making it at best an obscure option for most people. An app (or browser 
chrome) could put a "renegotiate/re-encrypt NOW with only DTLS-SRTP" 
button up, but I doubt most apps would bother, and it might be a 
struggle to get all browsers to include such an option I suspect.  And 
even that might/would be hard to convey to users.  But maybe that's the 
best we can do.  If so, it's a sad day we can't collectively figure out 
something better.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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On 25 April 2013 16:33, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> SDES is basically "protect against WiFi sniffers" encryption.

I wondered when this characterization would resurface.  It's a really
bad one.  SDES protects your communications from everyone except the
website and anyone they choose to send it to.  It's no different to
using DTLS-SRTP to send data directly to a server that presents the
sites domain certificate.  It's exactly equivalent to allowing
getUserMedia with peerIdentity constraint (and that other one I can't
ever remember the name of).

Whether this is acceptable depends on your threat model.

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On Apr 25, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's =
words):
>=20
> (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
> (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.
>=20
> Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:
>=20
> Performance - A DTLS handshake takes a fair bit of CPU time,
> especially on the passive (server) peer, and two round trips.  The CPU
> cost might not be that big of a deal (SBC vendors may disagree), but
> round trips hurt.

Yes.  But major web sites seem to accept the performance penalty of the =
TLS handshake, both CPU hit and round trips.

> Conferencing Scenarios - Ensuring that streams can be mixed,
> translated and still decoded for a multi-leg conference is just easier
> with security descriptions.
>=20
> It's true that conferencing scenarios can be addressed by EKT, but EKT
> has similar 2804 properties as security descriptions.  It would not be
> permissible to use EKT for a peer identity bound session because it
> makes the media accessible to signaling intermediaries (read: the web
> site).

To the contrary -- EKT is protected by the DTLS-SRTP key, which is not =
known to the web site (or SIP proxies).

> As long as you are in that state, EKT doesn't really provide that
> much.  Bid-down protection seems lame when the site has access to the
> keys.

Yes, it is lame if the site has access to the keys.  That is why I don't =
want Security Descriptions used with RTCWEB.

> Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
> because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story requires
> not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.
> Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
> descriptions.

Agreed.  And DTLS-SRTP provides the foundation to build such a system.  =
Security Descriptions does not provide a foundation to build such a =
system.

> The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media that
> is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  That
> means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
> even if it can't tamper with it on the network.
>=20
> I'm sympathetic to having DTLS-SRTP available to enable these secure
> scenarios.  That's not at issue.  But the reasons for DTLS-SRTP only
> largely come down to just having less code. And seriously, it's not
> even that much less.

-d

> On 25 April 2013 08:57, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>>=20
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further =
discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) =
would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that =
discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for =
that approach which indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  =
If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to the =
chairs or the list.
>>=20
>> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On Apr 25, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> On 25 April 2013 16:19, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>> I think we've discussed most of the topics Martin raises already and =
I'm
>> not sure I have much to add (which isn't to say I necessarily agree).
>=20
> I just wanted them on the record.
>=20
>> However, I think the below is incorrect and I'm not sure I have made
>> that point before.
>>=20
>>> Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
>>> because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story =
requires
>>> not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity =
assertions.
>>> Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
>>> descriptions.
>>>=20
>>> The default mode of operation for getUserMedia is to return media =
that
>>> is accessible to the web site.  The same for RTCPeerConnection.  =
That
>>> means that the site can see and modify your media in your browser,
>>> even if it can't tamper with it on the network.
>>=20
>> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS =
if you
>> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it =
doesn't
>> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user =
visible,
>> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, =
if SDES
>> is used
>> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at =
least
>> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>=20
> That's a fair point, and one I missed.  My bad.  But it's only
> relevant to the extent that it is possible to observe that the
> provided certificate is a phony.  It's not like the server is
> obligated to provide a particular CN, so it's mostly down to just
> looking at fingerprints.

Or storing fingerprints into an addressbook (similar to HTTPS key =
pinning), cooperatively comparing fingerprints (similar to =
http://perspectives-project.org), and the rest of the state of the art =
and emerging state of the art for certificate validation.

>=20
> It's also hard to retroactively audit due to the way (current)
> implementations mint new certificates for every interaction. =20

That is probably done for privacy, because otherwise the client and the =
server's identities are shown in the media path during the DTLS =
certificate exchange.  That needs to be wrapped with a separate key or, =
as you have seen, new certificates have to be generated for each session =
if identity privacy is important.

-d


> I'm
> fairly sure that (current) implementations don't make this
> particularly easy to examine in browser chrome, but even if they did
> it's hard to imagine a good usability story for accessing the
> information.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: "Suhas Nandakumar (snandaku)" <snandaku@cisco.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-02.txt
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Subject: [rtcweb] FW: New Version Notification for	draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-02.txt
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Hello All=0A=
=0A=
  A new version of the SDP Attribute Multiplex Draft has been submitted for=
 your perusal.=0A=
=0A=
  The changes include =0A=
    - clarifying the categories with examples=0A=
    - cleaning up category names.=0A=
    - few nits overall.=0A=
=0A=
Please let us know your thoughts=0A=
=0A=
Thanks=0A=
Suhas=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [internet-drafts@ietf.org]=0A=
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:30 PM=0A=
To: Suhas Nandakumar (snandaku)=0A=
Subject: New Version Notification for   draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-att=
ributes-02.txt=0A=
=0A=
A new version of I-D, draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-02.txt=0A=
has been successfully submitted by Suhas Nandakumar and posted to the=0A=
IETF repository.=0A=
=0A=
Filename:        draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes=0A=
Revision:        02=0A=
Title:           A Framework for SDP Attributes when Multiplexing=0A=
Creation date:   2013-04-25=0A=
Group:           Individual Submission=0A=
Number of pages: 55=0A=
URL:             http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nandakumar-mmusi=
c-sdp-mux-attributes-02.txt=0A=
Status:          http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sd=
p-mux-attributes=0A=
Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux=
-attributes-02=0A=
Diff:            http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nandakumar-mmusic=
-sdp-mux-attributes-02=0A=
=0A=
Abstract:=0A=
   The Session Description Protocol (SDP) provides mechanisms to=0A=
   describe attributes of multimedia sessions and of individual media=0A=
   streams (e.g., Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) sessions) within a=0A=
   multimedia session.  In the RTCWeb WG, there is a need to use a=0A=
   single 5-tuple for sending and receiving media associated with=0A=
   multiple media descriptions ("m=3D" lines).  Such a requirement has=0A=
   raised concerns over the semantic implications of the SDP attributes=0A=
   associated with the RTP Sessions multiplexed over a single transport=0A=
   layer flow.=0A=
=0A=
   The scope of this specification is to provide a framework for=0A=
   analyzing the multiplexing characteristics of SDP attributes.  The=0A=
   specification also categorizes existing attributes based on the=0A=
   framework described herein.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
The IETF Secretariat=0A=
=0A=

From ekr@rtfm.com  Thu Apr 25 18:01:38 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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--14dae94ee2adb8391404db391322
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> It's also hard to retroactively audit due to the way (current)
> implementations mint new certificates for every interaction.


This is a limitation of current implementations. Expect it to change in the
relatively
near-term.

-Ekr

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Martin =
Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">


It&#39;s also hard to retroactively audit due to the way (current)<br>
implementations mint new certificates for every interaction.=A0</blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>This is a limitation of current implementations. Expec=
t it to change in the relatively</div><div>near-term.</div><div><br></div>

<div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div>

--14dae94ee2adb8391404db391322--

From matthew@matthew.at  Thu Apr 25 21:03:24 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 3:11 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 25 April 2013 14:55, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>>
>> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize this?
> Data channels use the DTLS record layer, so using SDES for those would
> be harder than I think you want.
>
> Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted
> using keys provided by security descriptions.

Or, even better, data channels can just not be used in this case.

Matthew Kaufman


From matthew@matthew.at  Thu Apr 25 21:16:06 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 3:14 PM, Dan Wing wrote:
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> 2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases where the JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use.
> DTLS-SRTP with EKT can also perform that function, and does it without disclosing the SRTP key to all the SIP proxies and all the web servers on the signaling path.

1. Are you suggesting that we also mandate EKT?
2. Do you believe that an evil web server would do something other than 
negotiate DTLS-SRTP with the mixer it is in cahoots with?

The only advantage I can see is that if we mandate cipher suites that 
have PFS, then you get PFS... which helps until the evil web site's 
mixer records all the cleartext and saves it indefinitely as well. But 
it does help in the case where the partially-evil website only tells 
people the keys it logs. And then not, when the partially-evil website's 
mixer or gateway uses EKT and then only tells people the keys it issued.

So my conclusions (and correct me if I'm wrong):
  DTLS-SRTP w/EKT is exactly as secure as SDES sent over HTTPS... it is 
just a different encrypted channel over which the key is set.

DTLS-SRTP w/EKT requires a more complex media gateway relationship for 
interworking (as it needs to be in-path for the keying on that side, 
despite the use of SDES on the other side).

DTLS-SRTP w/EKT for interworking exposes the key via SDES on the other 
side of the interworking relationship anyway, so even though there isn't 
SDES to the browser there's SDES on the other (likely SIP) side.

And DTLS-SRTP without EKT fails for the cases where the key needs to be 
set for interworking.

And finally, to get the browser-to-browser security guarantees you want 
you need to be A) sure that you're really talking browser to browser and 
not via something else in path (like a mixer) and B) would really prefer 
that there be no way that the in-path device be able to force a key 
(thus you'd want to NOT allow EKT in the browser-to-browser case, even 
though there's no way for a browser to know what it is talking to)

>
>> Since JSEP uses SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. Obviously it is a bad idea to send this key over unsecured channels, but this is separate from this API issue.
>>
>> And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and only thus mode should be considered "secure" using whatever user interface a browser chooses.
> But is there a secure mechanism to differentiate browser-to-browser calls from browser-to-non-browser calls, so we don't have to worry over SDES downgrade attacks?

This is provably impossible.

>   And for the use-cases where JavaScript has to set the key, those will often be browser-to-browser calls, meaning that we will have to support browser-to-browser SDES, contrary to your desire that browser-to-browser use DTLS-SRTP?

Yes, of course.

>   DTLS-SRTP with EKT permits the application to set the SRTP key, and more securely than SDES.

See above. I don't believe that it is "more securely". The path is 
different. Whether that path is more secure or equivalently secure is 
debatable.

Matthew Kaufman


From matthew@matthew.at  Thu Apr 25 21:21:05 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if you
> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user 
> visible,
> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, 
> if SDES is used
> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>

That really depends on what you mean by "user visible" doesn't it? If 
you mean "the user is watching to see that all their packets go to what 
they know is the verified IP address of their buddy" then sure. But if 
you mean "the user is looking at their web browser user interface" or 
even "the user was worried mid-call so checked to see where the packets 
were going" then I think not, as all that needs to happen is for the 
call to be set up with a middlebox in the path that the site claims is 
necessary for the call to work (meets the UI test), keys set with EKT, 
and then a little ICE renegotiation and the middlebox goes away from the 
path (meets even the second test).

Matthew Kaufman


From matthew@matthew.at  Thu Apr 25 21:27:33 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 4:40 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 4:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
>> I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript 
>> is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with 
>> SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
>
> So, the problems with SDES (discussed to a fare-the-well every 3 
> months for the last 1.75 years or more, so there's nothing really new 
> here):
>
> It exposes security keys directly to the application (or takes them 
> from there).  Basically, you're back in "all your media is totally in 
> trust to the application and website".  The keys aren't even end-2-end 
> encrypted or even authenticated.  And even if you expose SDES 
> bid-downs to the user, they don't know what they mean or how to 
> process this information.

This is true anyway, because even if we only allow DTLS-SRTP, we will 
allow cases like (as an example) Google Hangouts... which will no doubt 
be implemented by having the box in the middle be who you're calling and 
doing the DTLS exchange with. And then yes, you're trusting the 
application and website and its mixer with your media.

>
> SDES basically means to me "secure against random WiFi sniffers at the 
> coffeeshop", and little more than that.  I realize carriers and others 
> like SDES because they make certain uses and obligations easy for them 
> to meet, and interop with legacy devices and systems easier (though 
> many such legacy interop systems will perforce need gateways anyways, 
> and those gateways can convert from DTLS-SRTP to SDES.

They can, but gateways that do the ICE connectivity check only were 
already an annoyance that makes interop harder than we'd like. Now we're 
going to force those gateways to also do DTLS-SRTP and EKT? Is the goal 
here to put up as many roadblocks as possible to RTCWEB developers who 
want to access networks outside of the browser-to-browser case?

>
> Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I 
> see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not 
> browser-legacy.

Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean it 
is true. Think of all the C2B use cases, where the agents in the call 
center probably won't be on browsers... and even if they are, those 
browsers will be behind systems that do things like supervisor 
monitoring and barge-in, audit recording, etc.

> Certainly some large organizations are built around the VoIP/net to 
> legacy equipment/PSTN/PBX use-case, and certainly they would find SDES 
> easier.

And many upstarts in the space are leveraging the large legacy VoIP and 
PSTN networks to give developers a reason to put their RTCWEB-based 
services into their browser experiences, too.

>
> But I think we need to weigh that against the longer term, and the 
> interests of the users (not the providers) -- the users aren't 
> generally at this table; the IETF is full of people who almost by 
> definition work for the companies that provide data and services. (Not 
> everyone, but most.)
>
> I realize there are some (many) who have 
> business/organizational/political reasons to avoid end-2-end 
> encryption.  However, per IETF norms (RFC 2084) we should not be 
> letting that decide this issue.
>
>
> It's tough to find a way to allow SDES in the "connect to a gateway 
> that will decrypt anyways" case, while also avoid bid-down attacks on 
> browser-browser communication.  (and EKT has some of the same key 
> control issues)
>
> We can say "we enforce DTLS-SRTP only for secure, authenticated" calls 
> like ekr presented (with media tainting, etc) - but that mode isn't 
> the default and really can't be/won't be for many users and 
> applications, making it at best an obscure option for most people. An 
> app (or browser chrome) could put a "renegotiate/re-encrypt NOW with 
> only DTLS-SRTP" button up, but I doubt most apps would bother, and it 
> might be a struggle to get all browsers to include such an option I 
> suspect.  And even that might/would be hard to convey to users.  But 
> maybe that's the best we can do.  If so, it's a sad day we can't 
> collectively figure out something better.
>

We could do much better security-wise... If we really wanted nobody to 
use this stuff.

Matthew Kaufman

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 5:28 PM, Dan Wing wrote:
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's words):
>>
>> (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
>> (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.
>>
>> Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:
>>
>> Performance - A DTLS handshake takes a fair bit of CPU time,
>> especially on the passive (server) peer, and two round trips.  The CPU
>> cost might not be that big of a deal (SBC vendors may disagree), but
>> round trips hurt.
> Yes.  But major web sites seem to accept the performance penalty of the TLS handshake, both CPU hit and round trips.

The people who build the boxes that were going to just have to do the 
ICE front-end for legacy systems would probably tell you that the cost 
of the TLS handshake is a lot higher for them than it is for web servers.

I'm not one of them, but I'm sure we have one on the list.

>> Conferencing Scenarios - Ensuring that streams can be mixed,
>> translated and still decoded for a multi-leg conference is just easier
>> with security descriptions.
>>
>> It's true that conferencing scenarios can be addressed by EKT, but EKT
>> has similar 2804 properties as security descriptions.  It would not be
>> permissible to use EKT for a peer identity bound session because it
>> makes the media accessible to signaling intermediaries (read: the web
>> site).
> To the contrary -- EKT is protected by the DTLS-SRTP key, which is not known to the web site (or SIP proxies).

Unless of course the web site has anything to do with the box you've 
negotiated DTLS with... in which case not only does the web site know 
the EKT key, it also knows what DTLS key was negotiated to protect it!

>> As long as you are in that state, EKT doesn't really provide that
>> much.  Bid-down protection seems lame when the site has access to the
>> keys.
> Yes, it is lame if the site has access to the keys.  That is why I don't want Security Descriptions used with RTCWEB.

So you're going to argue against EKT, and require browsers to somehow 
prove that they are browsers and prevent browsers from talking to 
anything that isn't. I believe this would A) break a lot of the use 
cases and B) be technically infeasible.

>> Practical Matters of Security - You aren't necessarily more secure
>> because you are using DTLS-SRTP.  The complete security story requires
>> not just DTLS-SRTP, but also that both peers use identity assertions.
>> Otherwise its security properties are basically the same as security
>> descriptions.
> Agreed.  And DTLS-SRTP provides the foundation to build such a system.  Security Descriptions does not provide a foundation to build such a system.

Yes, and we are providing DTLS-SRTP. So how does SDES not providing such 
a foundation matter in your argument?

Matthew Kaufman


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 5:36 PM, Dan Wing wrote:
>
> Or storing fingerprints into an addressbook (similar to HTTPS key pinning), cooperatively comparing fingerprints (similar to http://perspectives-project.org), and the rest of the state of the art and emerging state of the art for certificate validation.

Yes. And so it'll learn that everyone calls everyone else via Google's 
server. How does that help with people's media staying secure from 
interception exactly?

Matthew Kaufman


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On 04/25/2013 05:57 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.

Sorry, I got lost in the levels of support.

Are you asking for indications of support for the idea of supporting 
SDES (in which case you should also be asking for indications of support 
for the idea of NOT supporting SDES), or are you asking for indications 
of support for the idea of having a discussion about supporting SDES?

             Harald


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 04/26/2013 06:27 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 4:40 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>> On 4/25/2013 4:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
>>> I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from 
>>> JavaScript is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best 
>>> we'll get with SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably 
>>> limiting.
>>
>> So, the problems with SDES (discussed to a fare-the-well every 3 
>> months for the last 1.75 years or more, so there's nothing really new 
>> here):
>>
>> It exposes security keys directly to the application (or takes them 
>> from there).  Basically, you're back in "all your media is totally in 
>> trust to the application and website".  The keys aren't even 
>> end-2-end encrypted or even authenticated.  And even if you expose 
>> SDES bid-downs to the user, they don't know what they mean or how to 
>> process this information.
>
> This is true anyway, because even if we only allow DTLS-SRTP, we will 
> allow cases like (as an example) Google Hangouts... which will no 
> doubt be implemented by having the box in the middle be who you're 
> calling and doing the DTLS exchange with. And then yes, you're 
> trusting the application and website and its mixer with your media.

Strictly speaking, you're trusting the mixer with your media.

You trust the website to serve up the application, and you trust the 
application to choose the mixer. This offers up an easy attack for any 
website that has a mixer it coordinates with - but it's the mixer you 
trust with your media.

It's nice to be precise.




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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 04/25/2013 07:28 AM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
>
> It is a much simpler question as there's only a couple of options 
> left... how about we throw it on the floor? That seems safest to me.
>
> I'd still love to hear why it is "needed" though.
>

The fact that Matthew doesn't want to accept the arguments for why it is 
needed doesn't seem relevant to me.

I think people have said enough times that they see value in the label 
concept, and they want some way to carry it. The OPEN message is a 
simple way to fill that need (and also makes some other aspects of setup 
simpler than they would otherwise be).




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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/25/2013 07:28 AM, Matthew Kaufman
      (SKYPE) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A484162816C1@tk5ex14mbxc272.redmond.corp.microsoft.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It
            is a much simpler question as there&#8217;s only a couple of
            options left&#8230; how about we throw it on the floor? That seems
            safest to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;d
            still love to hear why it is &#8220;needed&#8221; though.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    The fact that Matthew doesn't want to accept the arguments for why
    it is needed doesn't seem relevant to me.<br>
    <br>
    I think people have said enough times that they see value in the
    label concept, and they want some way to carry it. The OPEN message
    is a simple way to fill that need (and also makes some other aspects
    of setup simpler than they would otherwise be).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
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From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Thu Apr 25 22:53:59 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/26/2013 12:27 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 4:40 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>> On 4/25/2013 4:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
>>> I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from 
>>> JavaScript is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best 
>>> we'll get with SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably 
>>> limiting.
>>
>> So, the problems with SDES (discussed to a fare-the-well every 3 
>> months for the last 1.75 years or more, so there's nothing really new 
>> here):
>>
>> It exposes security keys directly to the application (or takes them 
>> from there).  Basically, you're back in "all your media is totally in 
>> trust to the application and website".  The keys aren't even 
>> end-2-end encrypted or even authenticated.  And even if you expose 
>> SDES bid-downs to the user, they don't know what they mean or how to 
>> process this information.
>
> This is true anyway, because even if we only allow DTLS-SRTP, we will 
> allow cases like (as an example) Google Hangouts... which will no 
> doubt be implemented by having the box in the middle be who you're 
> calling and doing the DTLS exchange with. And then yes, you're 
> trusting the application and website and its mixer with your media.

No argument: if you're calling into a mixer, all bets are off (it's 
secure only until it gets the data to the server/mixer).  And even 
person-to-person, without identity assertions it is MITM-able, though 
not completely undetectably - you can examine the IP addresses of the 
packet (and if you have identity assertions you have to check the 
identities, or have something to flag that there was a fingerprint/key 
change).

>
>>
>> SDES basically means to me "secure against random WiFi sniffers at 
>> the coffeeshop", and little more than that.  I realize carriers and 
>> others like SDES because they make certain uses and obligations easy 
>> for them to meet, and interop with legacy devices and systems easier 
>> (though many such legacy interop systems will perforce need gateways 
>> anyways, and those gateways can convert from DTLS-SRTP to SDES.
>
> They can, but gateways that do the ICE connectivity check only were 
> already an annoyance that makes interop harder than we'd like. Now 
> we're going to force those gateways to also do DTLS-SRTP and EKT? Is 
> the goal here to put up as many roadblocks as possible to RTCWEB 
> developers who want to access networks outside of the 
> browser-to-browser case?

I agree it's inconvenient to have these requirements - I spent a bunch 
of brain cycles and some phone chats with Cullen trying to figure out a 
way to enable PSTN gateway calls to avoid needing to use ICE and avoid 
needing DTLS-SRTP, and failed.  With DNSSec it's almost possible.

>
>>
>> Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I 
>> see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not 
>> browser-legacy.
>
> Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean 
> it is true. Think of all the C2B use cases, where the agents in the 
> call center probably won't be on browsers... and even if they are, 
> those browsers will be behind systems that do things like supervisor 
> monitoring and barge-in, audit recording, etc.

I don't count that as legacy - or if it is, that's fine - the call can 
be confirmed secure to the company's gateway and the gateway can 
identify itself as the company.

>
>> Certainly some large organizations are built around the VoIP/net to 
>> legacy equipment/PSTN/PBX use-case, and certainly they would find 
>> SDES easier.
>
> And many upstarts in the space are leveraging the large legacy VoIP 
> and PSTN networks to give developers a reason to put their 
> RTCWEB-based services into their browser experiences, too.
>
>>
>> But I think we need to weigh that against the longer term, and the 
>> interests of the users (not the providers) -- the users aren't 
>> generally at this table; the IETF is full of people who almost by 
>> definition work for the companies that provide data and services. 
>> (Not everyone, but most.)
>>
>> I realize there are some (many) who have 
>> business/organizational/political reasons to avoid end-2-end 
>> encryption.  However, per IETF norms (RFC 2084) we should not be 
>> letting that decide this issue.
>>
>>
>> It's tough to find a way to allow SDES in the "connect to a gateway 
>> that will decrypt anyways" case, while also avoid bid-down attacks on 
>> browser-browser communication.  (and EKT has some of the same key 
>> control issues)
>>
>> We can say "we enforce DTLS-SRTP only for secure, authenticated" 
>> calls like ekr presented (with media tainting, etc) - but that mode 
>> isn't the default and really can't be/won't be for many users and 
>> applications, making it at best an obscure option for most people. An 
>> app (or browser chrome) could put a "renegotiate/re-encrypt NOW with 
>> only DTLS-SRTP" button up, but I doubt most apps would bother, and it 
>> might be a struggle to get all browsers to include such an option I 
>> suspect.  And even that might/would be hard to convey to users.  But 
>> maybe that's the best we can do.  If so, it's a sad day we can't 
>> collectively figure out something better.
>>
>
> We could do much better security-wise... If we really wanted nobody to 
> use this stuff.

That's always the problem with strong security...  It has to be 
unobtrusive-but-functional in the "normal" cases to get widely used.  
Green-field encryption can be fairly easily strong because of lack of 
needing to interop.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote:

> O
>
>> Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I see
>> the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not
>> browser-legacy.
>>
>
> Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean it
> is true.
>

I remind you that the actual title of the group is:

"Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".  While you may disagree
with the charter, please remember that it's not fundamentally a prediction
about what the eventual balance of flows will be.  It's a statement about
where the balance of effort in the group should go.   To me as an
individual, it implies that we should not make trade-offs that optimize a
non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case except in
pretty extraordinary circumstances.

regards,

Ted Hardie

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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target=3D"_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
<div class=3D"im">O<br></div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I see th=
e primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not browser-legacy=
.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn&#39;t mean i=
t is true.<br></blockquote><div><br>I remind you that the actual title of t=
he group is:<br><br>&quot;Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)&=
quot;.=A0 While you may disagree with the charter, please remember that it&=
#39;s not fundamentally a prediction about what the eventual balance of flo=
ws will be.=A0 It&#39;s a statement about where the balance of effort in th=
e group should go.=A0=A0 To me as an individual, it implies that we should =
not make trade-offs that optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of =
the browser use case except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.<br>
<br>regards,<br><br>Ted Hardie<br></div></div>

--90e6ba5bca8f224ad304db3d2e9f--

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:08:31 -0700
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote:

> On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>>
>> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if you
>> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
>> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user
>> visible,
>> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, if
>> SDES is used
>> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
>> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>>
>>
> That really depends on what you mean by "user visible" doesn't it? If you
> mean "the user is watching to see that all their packets go to what they
> know is the verified IP address of their buddy" then sure. But if you mean
> "the user is looking at their web browser user interface" or even "the user
> was worried mid-call so checked to see where the packets were going" then I
> think not, as all that needs to happen is for the call to be set up with a
> middlebox in the path that the site claims is necessary for the call to
> work (meets the UI test), keys set with EKT, and then a little ICE
> renegotiation and the middlebox goes away from the path (meets even the
> second test).


What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks (admittedly
inconvenient) to
detect active attacks. Obviously, current browser UIs don't support that,
but
I expect them to eventually.

-Ekr

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew=
 Kaufman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target=
=3D"_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">


<div>On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
</div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
It&#39;s certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if =
you<br>
don&#39;t use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn&=
#39;t<br>
have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user visible=
,<br>
which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, if SDE=
S is used<br>
then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least<br=
>
any that goes through its network and you can&#39;t detect it.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
That really depends on what you mean by &quot;user visible&quot; doesn&#39;=
t it? If you mean &quot;the user is watching to see that all their packets =
go to what they know is the verified IP address of their buddy&quot; then s=
ure. But if you mean &quot;the user is looking at their web browser user in=
terface&quot; or even &quot;the user was worried mid-call so checked to see=
 where the packets were going&quot; then I think not, as all that needs to =
happen is for the call to be set up with a middlebox in the path that the s=
ite claims is necessary for the call to work (meets the UI test), keys set =
with EKT, and then a little ICE renegotiation and the middlebox goes away f=
rom the path (meets even the second test).</blockquote>


<div><br></div><div>What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks (adm=
ittedly inconvenient) to</div><div>detect active attacks. Obviously, curren=
t browser UIs don&#39;t support that, but</div><div>I expect them to eventu=
ally.</div>

<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div>

--047d7bd6a8cea75d1404db3d5f23--

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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.

Regards
Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>=20
> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>=20
> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It
> seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an
> SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize
> this?
>=20
> Richard Ejzak
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> >
> > Matthew Kaufman
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
> RTCWeb
> > >
> > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > WebRTC.
> > >
> > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > Verizon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > >
> > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
> > that
> > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support
> for
> > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > proposed.
> > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it
> to
> > the chairs or the list.
> > >
> > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From xavier.marjou@gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 01:49:46 2013
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To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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+1 for supporting SDES as a keying method for WebRTC

Cheers,

Xavier


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hutton, Andrew <
andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com> wrote:

> Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> Regards
> Andy
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> > Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
> >
> > This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It
> > seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an
> > SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize
> > this?
> >
> > Richard Ejzak
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> > >
> > > Matthew Kaufman
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
> > RTCWeb
> > > >
> > > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > > WebRTC.
> > > >
> > > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > > Verizon
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
> > > that
> > > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support
> > for
> > > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > > proposed.
> > > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it
> > to
> > > the chairs or the list.
> > > >
> > > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--089e0118306ccec48304db3f9d65
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt=
;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">+1 for supporting SDES as
a=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,s=
ans-serif">keying method for WebRTC</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"" style>
<font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Cheers,</font></p><p class=3D"" style><fon=
t face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Xavier</font></p></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hut=
ton, Andrew <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-e=
nterprise.com" target=3D"_blank">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Also agree that we should support SDES in ad=
ditional to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Andy<br>
<div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On<br>
</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard=
 P (Richard)<br>
&gt; Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. =A0It=
<br>
&gt; seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don&#39;t we also need to provide =
an<br>
&gt; SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels? =A0Ekr: What is needed to real=
ize<br>
&gt; this?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Richard Ejzak<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Bogineni, Kalyani; &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mail=
to:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RT=
CWeb<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaSc=
ript<br>
&gt; &gt; is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we&#39;ll =
get with<br>
&gt; &gt; SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Matthew Kaufman<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf=
.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) a=
nd<br>
&gt; RTCWeb<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method =
for<br>
&gt; &gt; WebRTC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Kalyani Bogineni<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and R=
TCWeb<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The working groups committed some time ago to have a further=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 ak=
a SDES)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. =A0As we prep=
are for<br>
&gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; discussion, we&#39;d like to have expressions of interest or=
 support<br>
&gt; for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; that approach which indicate the general outlines of support=
<br>
&gt; &gt; proposed.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; If you wish to make such an expression of support, please se=
nd it<br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; the chairs or the list.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e0118306ccec48304db3f9d65--

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On 26 Apr 2013, at 00:01, Martin Thomson wrote:

> The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's =
words):
>=20
> (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
> (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.
>=20
> Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:

I don't buy the interop argument.
There are (as we have all now discovered) no legacy devices that do SRTP =
(SDES only) and Ice/STUN/rtcp-mux/bundle
as required to consume the UDP that chrome (for example) generates. We =
will _always_ need a media gateway in front of
any current legacy devices to de-ice/de-mux/ etc the media streams from =
webRTC.

(Note: I refuse to take into account the oxymoronic 'future legacy' =
devices that current legacy providers may build at some point in the =
future).

So the question is how heavy does that media gateway have to be?=20
Does adding DTLS as a key exchange method make they exorbitant to build?=20=

It turns out that it doesn't.=20

Remembering that DTLS is only used here as a key-exchange=20
protocol you can just put a DTLS filter in your UDP layer (alongside the =
ICE /demux code) and pop the SRTP keys out of it.=20
Those keys can then be used by current SRTP hardware and software.=20

So the overhead is limited to the key-exchange itself. It will make call =
set-up mor expensive, but as someone pointed out there are
a few websites that seem to cope with https - so I dare say we will =
learn to live with it.

Tim.=

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:35:33 +0200
Message-ID: <CALiegfnRLD=kf+a9-JC2bdk5T90taYXhQywJfERE5xEbOBmDwA@mail.gmail.com>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
To: "Richard P Ejzak, (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer. Why do we need
SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 25/04/2013 23:55, "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <
richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com> escribi=C3=B3:

> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It seem=
s
> that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an SDES keyin=
g
> mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize this?
>
> Richard Ejzak
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> >
> > Matthew Kaufman
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > WebRTC.
> > >
> > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > Verizon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > >
> > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
> > that
> > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for
> > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > proposed.
> > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to
> > the chairs or the list.
> > >
> > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--047d7b5dbdccdc599404db41eed3
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<p dir=3D"ltr">SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer.=
 Why do we need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?<b=
r></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 25/04/2013 23:55, &quot;Ejzak, Richard P (Ric=
hard)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com">richard=
.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"attribution"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
<br>
This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. =C2=A0It s=
eems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don&#39;t we also need to provide an SDE=
S keying mechanism for DataChannels? =C2=A0Ekr: What is needed to realize t=
his?<br>

<br>
Richard Ejzak<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM<br>
&gt; To: Bogineni, Kalyani; &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mailto:rt=
cweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript<=
br>
&gt; is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we&#39;ll get w=
ith<br>
&gt; SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Matthew Kaufman<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org"=
>rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RT=
CWeb<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for<b=
r>
&gt; WebRTC.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Kalyani Bogineni<br>
&gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb=
<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The working groups committed some time ago to have a further<br>
&gt; &gt; discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDE=
S)<br>
&gt; &gt; would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. =C2=A0As we prepar=
e for<br>
&gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; discussion, we&#39;d like to have expressions of interest or supp=
ort for<br>
&gt; &gt; that approach which indicate the general outlines of support<br>
&gt; proposed.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it=
 to<br>
&gt; the chairs or the list.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--047d7b5dbdccdc599404db41eed3--

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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors but bad
for all the rest.

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 26/04/2013 00:14, "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com> escribi=C3=B3:

>
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm not a fan of SDES. However, I've come to believe that we need it fo=
r
> two reasons.
> >
> > 1. There is a backwards compatibility reason. There are deployed system=
s
> of SRTP that use SDES or a key agreement that easily maps to it. Just as =
we
> allowed G.711 for these systems, it seems reasonable to allow SDES as wel=
l.
> When combined with ICE Lite in a media gateway, this is a scalable intero=
p
> approach.
>
> Interworking at scale can be accomplished without SDES on WEBRTC, as I
> explained at IETF83 in slides 27-35 of
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-rtcweb-3.pdf.
>
> > 2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases
> where the JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use.
>
> DTLS-SRTP with EKT can also perform that function, and does it without
> disclosing the SRTP key to all the SIP proxies and all the web servers on
> the signaling path.
>
> > Since JSEP uses SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. Obviousl=
y
> it is a bad idea to send this key over unsecured channels, but this is
> separate from this API issue.
> >
> > And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and only
> thus mode should be considered "secure" using whatever user interface a
> browser chooses.
>
> But is there a secure mechanism to differentiate browser-to-browser calls
> from browser-to-non-browser calls, so we don't have to worry over SDES
> downgrade attacks?  And for the use-cases where JavaScript has to set the
> key, those will often be browser-to-browser calls, meaning that we will
> have to support browser-to-browser SDES, contrary to your desire that
> browser-to-browser use DTLS-SRTP?  DTLS-SRTP with EKT permits the
> application to set the SRTP key, and more securely than SDES.
>
> -d
>
>
> >
> > - Alan -
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussio=
n
> on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable =
as
> a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like
> to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indica=
te
> the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an
> expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
> >>
> >> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> rtcweb mailing list
> >> rtcweb@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for =
vendors but bad for all the rest.<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 26/04/2013 00:14, &quot;Dan Wing&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dwing@cisco.com">dwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br =
type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Alan Johnston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.b.joh=
nston@gmail.com">alan.b.johnston@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;m not a fan of SDES. However, I&#39;ve come to believe that we n=
eed it for two reasons.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. There is a backwards compatibility reason. There are deployed syste=
ms of SRTP that use SDES or a key agreement that easily maps to it. Just as=
 we allowed G.711 for these systems, it seems reasonable to allow SDES as w=
ell. When combined with ICE Lite in a media gateway, this is a scalable int=
erop approach.<br>

<br>
Interworking at scale can be accomplished without SDES on WEBRTC, as I expl=
ained at IETF83 in slides 27-35 of <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/83/slides/slides-83-rtcweb-3.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-rtcweb-3.pdf</a>.<br>

<br>
&gt; 2. We need it or something like it for API reasons. There are cases wh=
ere the JavaScript needs to tell the browser what SRTP key to use.<br>
<br>
DTLS-SRTP with EKT can also perform that function, and does it without disc=
losing the SRTP key to all the SIP proxies and all the web servers on the s=
ignaling path.<br>
<br>
&gt; Since JSEP uses SDP for this API surface, SDES works for this. Obvious=
ly it is a bad idea to send this key over unsecured channels, but this is s=
eparate from this API issue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And just to be clear, browser to browser should use DTLS-SRTP, and onl=
y thus mode should be considered &quot;secure&quot; using whatever user int=
erface a browser chooses.<br>
<br>
But is there a secure mechanism to differentiate browser-to-browser calls f=
rom browser-to-non-browser calls, so we don&#39;t have to worry over SDES d=
owngrade attacks? =C2=A0And for the use-cases where JavaScript has to set t=
he key, those will often be browser-to-browser calls, meaning that we will =
have to support browser-to-browser SDES, contrary to your desire that brows=
er-to-browser use DTLS-SRTP? =C2=A0DTLS-SRTP with EKT permits the applicati=
on to set the SRTP key, and more securely than SDES.<br>

<br>
-d<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - Alan -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Cullen Jennings &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fl=
uffy@iii.ca">fluffy@iii.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discu=
ssion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usa=
ble as a keying method for WebRTC. =C2=A0As we prepare for that discussion,=
 we&#39;d like to have expressions of interest or support for that approach=
 which indicate the general outlines of support proposed. =C2=A0If you wish=
 to make such an expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the=
 list.<br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--047d7b5d57da99c93604db41f6f3--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:

> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors =
but bad for all the rest.
>=20

I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is =
_exactly_ the same=20
(conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP packets =
from the stream, do some
stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic =
settings back up to the (s)rtp=20
layer.

T.


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><p dir=3D"ltr">Such a solution requires a very expensive =
gateway. Good for vendors but bad for all the =
rest.<br></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand why the =
DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is _exactly_ the =
same&nbsp;</div><div>(conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter =
off a few UDP packets from the stream, do some</div><div>stuff, send =
replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic settings back up =
to the =
(s)rtp&nbsp;</div><div>layer.</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div><div><br></=
div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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The problem is when EKT is also used and the gateway must send SIP reINVITE
by itself as the proposed "solution diagram" shows. That is not just a
media gateway.

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 26/04/2013 15:16, "Tim Panton" <tim@phonefromhere.com> escribi=C3=B3:

>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors but
> bad for all the rest.
>
>
> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is
> _exactly_ the same
> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP packets
> from the stream, do some
> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic setting=
s
> back up to the (s)rtp
> layer.
>
> T.
>
>

--20cf302ef9d83c19ac04db4362f0
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<p dir=3D"ltr">The problem is when EKT is also used and the gateway must se=
nd SIP reINVITE by itself as the proposed &quot;solution diagram&quot; show=
s. That is not just a media gateway.<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 26/04/2013 15:16, &quot;Tim Panton&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt; escr=
ibi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37,=
 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><p dir=
=3D"ltr">Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendor=
s but bad for all the rest.<br>
</p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t understand why the DTLS ga=
teway would be so expensive. It is _exactly_ the same=C2=A0</div><div>(conc=
eptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP packets from the=
 stream, do some</div>
<div>stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic sett=
ings back up to the (s)rtp=C2=A0</div><div>layer.</div><div><br></div><div>=
T.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div>

--20cf302ef9d83c19ac04db4362f0--

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On 4/26/2013 6:16 AM, Tim Panton wrote:
>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors 
>> but bad for all the rest.
>>
>
> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is 
> _exactly_ the same
> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP 
> packets from the stream, do some
> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic 
> settings back up to the (s)rtp
> layer.
>

The CPU-seconds of cryptography required are markedly different, 
especially on low-end processors used by some of the distributed gateway 
solutions.

Matthew Kaufman

From matthew@matthew.at  Fri Apr 26 06:25:53 2013
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On 4/25/2013 11:08 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at 
> <mailto:matthew@matthew.at>> wrote:
>
>     On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>         It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with
>         DTLS if you
>         don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what
>         it doesn't
>         have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is
>         user visible,
>         which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By
>         contrast, if SDES is used
>         then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic,
>         or at least
>         any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>
>
>     That really depends on what you mean by "user visible" doesn't it?
>     If you mean "the user is watching to see that all their packets go
>     to what they know is the verified IP address of their buddy" then
>     sure. But if you mean "the user is looking at their web browser
>     user interface" or even "the user was worried mid-call so checked
>     to see where the packets were going" then I think not, as all that
>     needs to happen is for the call to be set up with a middlebox in
>     the path that the site claims is necessary for the call to work
>     (meets the UI test), keys set with EKT, and then a little ICE
>     renegotiation and the middlebox goes away from the path (meets
>     even the second test).
>
>
> What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks (admittedly 
> inconvenient) to
> detect active attacks. Obviously, current browser UIs don't support 
> that, but
> I expect them to eventually.
>

Unless you are in a Hangouts-like scenario, where every call goes to a 
mixer and so the fingerprints for all calls look the same, whether 
you're being intercepted or not.

Matthew Kaufman


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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/25/2013 11:08 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABcZeBPtKMxOx5DH0HJgb6hq8qCfJfJqbAVbtq3aip1w=VDirA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite"><br>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew
        Kaufman <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target="_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div>On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              It's certainly true that the site has access to the media
              with DTLS if you<br>
              don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However,
              what it doesn't<br>
              have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something
              that is user visible,<br>
              which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By
              contrast, if SDES is used<br>
              then the site can simply passively monitor all your
              traffic, or at least<br>
              any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.<br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          That really depends on what you mean by "user visible" doesn't
          it? If you mean "the user is watching to see that all their
          packets go to what they know is the verified IP address of
          their buddy" then sure. But if you mean "the user is looking
          at their web browser user interface" or even "the user was
          worried mid-call so checked to see where the packets were
          going" then I think not, as all that needs to happen is for
          the call to be set up with a middlebox in the path that the
          site claims is necessary for the call to work (meets the UI
          test), keys set with EKT, and then a little ICE renegotiation
          and the middlebox goes away from the path (meets even the
          second test).</blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks
          (admittedly inconvenient) to</div>
        <div>detect active attacks. Obviously, current browser UIs don't
          support that, but</div>
        <div>I expect them to eventually.</div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Unless you are in a Hangouts-like scenario, where every call goes to
    a mixer and so the fingerprints for all calls look the same, whether
    you're being intercepted or not.<br>
    <br>
    Matthew Kaufman<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------050201000900000705060007--

From matthew@matthew.at  Fri Apr 26 06:28:59 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 10:25 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> On 04/26/2013 06:27 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
>>
>> This is true anyway, because even if we only allow DTLS-SRTP, we will 
>> allow cases like (as an example) Google Hangouts... which will no 
>> doubt be implemented by having the box in the middle be who you're 
>> calling and doing the DTLS exchange with. And then yes, you're 
>> trusting the application and website and its mixer with your media.
>
> Strictly speaking, you're trusting the mixer with your media.
>
> You trust the website to serve up the application, and you trust the 
> application to choose the mixer. This offers up an easy attack for any 
> website that has a mixer it coordinates with - but it's the mixer you 
> trust with your media.
>
> It's nice to be precise.

But all must be trusted. The application can send you to an evil mixer, 
the website can serve up an application or tamper with the signaling in 
order to send you to an evil mixer, and the mixer can itself be evil. 
And the application can use GetUserMedia to capture a second copy of 
your media and send it somewhere else, or the website can modify the 
application (or in some cases, the signaling) to do that as well.

You're trusting everything to not do something that results in your 
media being intercepted.

Matthew Kaufman

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 14:24, Matthew Kaufman wrote:

> On 4/26/2013 6:16 AM, Tim Panton wrote:
>>=20
>> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>>=20
>>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors =
but bad for all the rest.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is =
_exactly_ the same
>> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP =
packets from the stream, do some
>> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic =
settings back up to the (s)rtp
>> layer.
>>=20
>=20
> The CPU-seconds of cryptography required are markedly different, =
especially on low-end processors used by some of the distributed gateway =
solutions.

True, but only at call set-up time, not for the life of the call. I'd =
want to see numbers on this before we select to adopt even=20
more complexity for the sake of a theoretical legacy interop =
requirement.

T.


From matthew@matthew.at  Fri Apr 26 06:31:48 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 10:54 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>
> That's always the problem with strong security...  It has to be 
> unobtrusive-but-functional in the "normal" cases to get widely used.  
> Green-field encryption can be fairly easily strong because of lack of 
> needing to interop.
>

Even that isn't true. See, for instance, Zooko's triangle [1]. Getting 
strong encryption with useful authentication that protects a naive user 
from evil applications and signaling services is very very hard, even if 
you ignore interop.

Matthew Kaufman

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle>

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 04/26/2013 03:16 PM, Tim Panton wrote:
>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors 
>> but bad for all the rest.
>>
>
> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is 
> _exactly_ the same
> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP 
> packets from the stream, do some
> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic 
> settings back up to the (s)rtp
> layer.

So you're saying that the gateway doesn't have to decrypt and re-encrypt 
the packets?

I think EKT may be a problem, as Inaki pointed out, but I have less 
qualms about supporting DTLS and making it optional to use EKT on some 
calls than I have about mandating support for SDES.


From matthew@matthew.at  Fri Apr 26 06:33:58 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 4/25/2013 10:55 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at 
> <mailto:matthew@matthew.at>> wrote:
>
>     O
>
>         Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES,
>         but I see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be
>         browser-to-browser, not browser-legacy.
>
>
>     Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't
>     mean it is true.
>
>
> I remind you that the actual title of the group is:
>
> "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".  While you may 
> disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not fundamentally 
> a prediction about what the eventual balance of flows will be.  It's a 
> statement about where the balance of effort in the group should go.   
> To me as an individual, it implies that we should not make trade-offs 
> that optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use 
> case except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
>

Adding SDES helps a non-browser use case with no expense to the browser 
use cases except for the small amount of additional code.

If you don't believe that (because you think it reduces the 
browser-to-browser security) then I will point you to  browser use cases 
include multi-party scenarios that will require EKT, and then show how 
the security of EKT is nearly equivalent.

Matthew Kaufman


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/25/2013 10:55 PM, Ted Hardie
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+9kkMAd6LxPTsA+3LfXFkoZQN-D4pwsAG9Oa9axiFt-QPOSOw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <span
        dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target="_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span>
      wrote:<br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im">O<br>
          </div>
          <div class="im">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with
              SDES, but I see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be
              browser-to-browser, not browser-legacy.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way
          doesn't mean it is true.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          I remind you that the actual title of the group is:<br>
          <br>
          "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".&nbsp; While you
          may disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not
          fundamentally a prediction about what the eventual balance of
          flows will be.&nbsp; It's a statement about where the balance of
          effort in the group should go.&nbsp;&nbsp; To me as an individual, it
          implies that we should not make trade-offs that optimize a
          non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case
          except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Adding SDES helps a non-browser use case with no expense to the
    browser use cases except for the small amount of additional code.<br>
    <br>
    If you don't believe that (because you think it reduces the
    browser-to-browser security) then I will point you to&nbsp; browser use
    cases include multi-party scenarios that will require EKT, and then
    show how the security of EKT is nearly equivalent.<br>
    <br>
    Matthew Kaufman<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------010408090705060607080808--

From tim@phonefromhere.com  Fri Apr 26 06:43:24 2013
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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 14:33, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> On 04/26/2013 03:16 PM, Tim Panton wrote:
>>=20
>> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>>=20
>>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors =
but bad for all the rest.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is =
_exactly_ the same
>> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP =
packets from the stream, do some
>> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic =
settings back up to the (s)rtp
>> layer.
>=20
> So you're saying that the gateway doesn't have to decrypt and =
re-encrypt the packets?

It depends where it is a gateway to. I'm claiming that the huge majority =
of the legacy side endpoints
are going to be wanting plain RTP anyhow, so no need to re-encrypt.
Another chunk of functionality is local processing (conference mixing, =
call recording, ivr etc) where=20
the device (or it's cluster) is the endpoint, so again no need to re- =
encrypt.

The decryption can be handled by existing SRTP components, which just =
need to be fed the keys
generated by the DTLS exchange.

(And I'd add that we got into this mess by sticking with O/A semantics. =
)

T.


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From: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 14:34, Matthew Kaufman wrote:

> On 4/25/2013 10:55 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> =
wrote:
>> O
>> Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I =
see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not =
browser-legacy.
>>=20
>> Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean =
it is true.
>>=20
>> I remind you that the actual title of the group is:
>>=20
>> "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".  While you may =
disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not fundamentally a =
prediction about what the eventual balance of flows will be.  It's a =
statement about where the balance of effort in the group should go.   To =
me as an individual, it implies that we should not make trade-offs that =
optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case =
except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
>>=20
>=20
> Adding SDES helps a non-browser use case with no expense to the =
browser use cases except for the small amount of additional code.

I don't agree, it further complicates the existing hideous mess that is =
the SDP in the browser. Given where we are, we should be looking for =
ways to simplify that, not complicate it.

If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take =
a look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser interop.
=
https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.=
html

I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.

T.=

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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 14:34, Matthew Kaufman wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/25/2013 10:55 PM, Ted Hardie
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CA+9kkMAd6LxPTsA+3LfXFkoZQN-D4pwsAG9Oa9axiFt-QPOSOw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target="_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span>
      wrote:<br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im">O<br>
          </div>
          <div class="im">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with
              SDES, but I see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be
              browser-to-browser, not browser-legacy.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way
          doesn't mean it is true.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          I remind you that the actual title of the group is:<br>
          <br>
          "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".&nbsp; While you
          may disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not
          fundamentally a prediction about what the eventual balance of
          flows will be.&nbsp; It's a statement about where the balance of
          effort in the group should go.&nbsp;&nbsp; To me as an individual, it
          implies that we should not make trade-offs that optimize a
          non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case
          except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Adding SDES helps a non-browser use case with no expense to the
    browser use cases except for the small amount of additional code.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't agree, it further complicates the existing hideous mess that is the SDP in the browser. Given where we are, we should be looking for ways to simplify that, not complicate it.</div><div><br></div><div>If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take a look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser interop.</div><div><a href="https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html">https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div></div></body></html>
--Apple-Mail=_9DAD43A1-4F0C-4AB4-A395-4D2277F27D58--

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 06:48:14 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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--e89a8f6469dfcaaa0304db43cb25
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 6:25 AM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote:

>  On 4/25/2013 11:08 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at>wrote:
>
>> On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's certainly true that the site has access to the media with DTLS if
>>> you
>>> don't use identity assertions/isolated streams. However, what it doesn't
>>> have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something that is user
>>> visible,
>>> which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By contrast, if
>>> SDES is used
>>> then the site can simply passively monitor all your traffic, or at least
>>> any that goes through its network and you can't detect it.
>>>
>>>
>>  That really depends on what you mean by "user visible" doesn't it? If
>> you mean "the user is watching to see that all their packets go to what
>> they know is the verified IP address of their buddy" then sure. But if you
>> mean "the user is looking at their web browser user interface" or even "the
>> user was worried mid-call so checked to see where the packets were going"
>> then I think not, as all that needs to happen is for the call to be set up
>> with a middlebox in the path that the site claims is necessary for the call
>> to work (meets the UI test), keys set with EKT, and then a little ICE
>> renegotiation and the middlebox goes away from the path (meets even the
>> second test).
>
>
>  What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks (admittedly
> inconvenient) to
> detect active attacks. Obviously, current browser UIs don't support that,
> but
> I expect them to eventually.
>
>
> Unless you are in a Hangouts-like scenario, where every call goes to a
> mixer and so the fingerprints for all calls look the same, whether you're
> being intercepted or not.
>

Of course. However, if you want to have a call where you know you are
secure from monitoring by the site, you avoid such scenarios.

-Ekr

--e89a8f6469dfcaaa0304db43cb25
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 6:25 AM, Matthew Kaufman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:matthew@matthew.at" target=3D"_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <div>On 4/25/2013 11:08 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>
      <br>
      <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Matthew
        Kaufman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew@matthew.at"=
 target=3D"_blank">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div>On 4/25/2013 4:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              It&#39;s certainly true that the site has access to the media
              with DTLS if you<br>
              don&#39;t use identity assertions/isolated streams. However,
              what it doesn&#39;t<br>
              have is *invisible* access. I.e., it must do something
              that is user visible,<br>
              which allows for the detection of cheating by the site. By
              contrast, if SDES is used<br>
              then the site can simply passively monitor all your
              traffic, or at least<br>
              any that goes through its network and you can&#39;t detect it=
.<br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          That really depends on what you mean by &quot;user visible&quot; =
doesn&#39;t
          it? If you mean &quot;the user is watching to see that all their
          packets go to what they know is the verified IP address of
          their buddy&quot; then sure. But if you mean &quot;the user is lo=
oking
          at their web browser user interface&quot; or even &quot;the user =
was
          worried mid-call so checked to see where the packets were
          going&quot; then I think not, as all that needs to happen is for
          the call to be set up with a middlebox in the path that the
          site claims is necessary for the call to work (meets the UI
          test), keys set with EKT, and then a little ICE renegotiation
          and the middlebox goes away from the path (meets even the
          second test).</blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>What I mean is that you can use fingerprint checks
          (admittedly inconvenient) to</div>
        <div>detect active attacks. Obviously, current browser UIs don&#39;=
t
          support that, but</div>
        <div>I expect them to eventually.</div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br></div></div>
    Unless you are in a Hangouts-like scenario, where every call goes to
    a mixer and so the fingerprints for all calls look the same, whether
    you&#39;re being intercepted or not.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>Of course. However, if you want to have a call where you know you are</=
div><div>secure from monitoring by the site, you avoid such scenarios.</div=
>

<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=A0</div></div>

--e89a8f6469dfcaaa0304db43cb25--

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From: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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To: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 26, 2013, at 6:29 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:

>=20
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 14:24, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
>=20
>> On 4/26/2013 6:16 AM, Tim Panton wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors =
but bad for all the rest.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is =
_exactly_ the same
>>> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP =
packets from the stream, do some
>>> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic =
settings back up to the (s)rtp
>>> layer.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> The CPU-seconds of cryptography required are markedly different, =
especially on low-end processors used by some of the distributed gateway =
solutions.
>=20
> True, but only at call set-up time, not for the life of the call. I'd =
want to see numbers on this before we select to adopt even=20
> more complexity for the sake of a theoretical legacy interop =
requirement.

Right - only at call setup and only when keys change.  The SRTP packets =
themselves are not decrypted/encrypted.

-d


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/25/2013 2:42 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>> So with my co-chair hat on here…
>>
>> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and have 
>> come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
>>
>> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think we 
>> need OPEN
>
> The Open message has some important and useful properties:
>
> 1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing 
> network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a 
> large portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it 
> really easy for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream 
> them want with little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs 
> they're already used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label 
> field will avoid the JS programmer having to build their own 
> mini-protocol to identify their channels (and this is especially 
> painful for them if it's an unreliable channel).

Easier how? The initiating side needs to create their object without the 
benefit of the contents of an open message. If a JS developer isn't 
smart enough to set up the channel parameters they want at the 
initiating end, then there's nothing we can do for them. There's then 
several ways forward after that, including "the other side does the same 
thing to create their end" (my preference) and "the parameters are 
transported using the existing SDP O/A mechanism to the far end" 
(generally how the WG solves this kind of problem).

As far as I can tell, the one useful thing in the OPEN message is the 
label (as I pointed out in my very first inquiry about why anyone 
thought it was needed), and yet the label is allowed to be null, so in 
that case how can it be helpful?

>
> 2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange data, 
> by having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and there 
> was strong agreement on it's being needed for that at Atlanta.)  With 
> external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for different apps to 
> interoperate, since they'd need to agree on negotiation protocols as 
> well, which are likely to be highly divergent between apps.

If we went with "negotiated via the SDP O/A mechanism" then we could go 
to our favorite SDP-defining WG and have a negotiation protocol that is 
standardized, so not divergent at all between apps.

>
> 3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes 
> the issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data 
> that arrives unexpectedly) simpler.

I disagree. It increases the number of possible states... there's cases 
where the OPEN message arrives but the application doesn't want to be 
receiving that data, and the cases where the OPEN message doesn't arrive 
but the application does want the data that is already arriving. Both of 
those states don't exist if there's no OPEN message.

> With Open, only degenerate cases can cause more than a relatively 
> small amount of data to be buffered.

Sure, but those degenerate cases occur many times per day on the real 
Internet.

> With external notification, the external negotiation channel can fail 
> (or be very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the 
> negotiated values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering 
> requirements - or you punt the problem to the application by 
> delivering the data, but the application is facing the same conundrum 
> of buffer it or throw it away.
>
>> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with unexpected 
>> data before the OPEN
>
>
> The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external 
> negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).
>
> *tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that 
> would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with 
> Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below.  I also would be 
> ok with B, but I realize others may not be.
>
> Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of 
> dynamic channels must use one of these:
>
> A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready to 
> receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or
>
> B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages 
> are delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or
>
> C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with 
> data being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are exceeded, or
>
> D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I 
> don't know what with it.
>
> For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading to 
> hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open 
> or external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to open.
>
> Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios

So if that's true, then why do we need it?

> -- and in fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it 
> reduces the problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered channels 
> (in ordered channels Open will always be first).
>
> Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It 
> means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a new 
> channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to start 
> sending data on that channel.

Of course this is different from the TCP model, where the buffering 
happens at the *sender* until the handshake is complete.

The problem here is that we have an existing mechanism inside of SCTP 
and then we're adding another layer on top of that which is neither 
inside SCTP (where it probably belongs) or under the application 
developer's control (where I'd like to see it, if the data transport 
protocol can't have it), and this layer conflicts with what both of 
those might be doing.

> Note that with external negotiation (possibly on a non p2p path, like 
> via signaling), the receiver might not know what to install for a 
> short while, especially if there's a routing issue or server issue 
> (not a problem that happens with Open).

Which is fine if the sender doesn't start sending (like TCP). Or if the 
transport protocol itself handles the delivery of the channel metadata. 
(Which is what SCTP, or whatever transport we choose for RTCWEB, should 
do) then you just handle the label and whatever other metadata the 
receiver would like to know at that layer.

>
> Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this 
> problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems 
> reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small 
> buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that 
> apps using external negotiation can just send largish data immediately 
> - and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely occurrence 
> even in most external negotiation cases.  If people want to bikeshed 
> on the buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)
>
> Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a trivial 
> amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving 
> side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external 
> negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).
>
>

Another great argument for having this negotiation happen within the 
transport itself.

Matthew Kaufman

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On 4/25/2013 10:30 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> On 04/25/2013 07:28 AM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:
>>
>> It is a much simpler question as there's only a couple of options 
>> left... how about we throw it on the floor? That seems safest to me.
>>
>> I'd still love to hear why it is "needed" though.
>>
>
> The fact that Matthew doesn't want to accept the arguments for why it 
> is needed doesn't seem relevant to me.

Until Randell's message arrived a few hours before yours, there was no 
concise summary of why it might be needed.

Never mind that your personal view as to whether or not to just ignore 
my technical arguments offhand because they're sent by me is hardly 
relevant to the rest of the working group.

>
> I think people have said enough times that they see value in the label 
> concept, and they want some way to carry it. The OPEN message is a 
> simple way to fill that need (and also makes some other aspects of 
> setup simpler than they would otherwise be).
>
>

And as I pointed out in my original message on this topic, which until 
Randell's message was met with silence, the only thing that made sense 
to me was the label field, and yet the label can be null, so might also 
be useless.

Matthew Kaufman


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/25/2013 10:30 PM, Harald
      Alvestrand wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:517A1102.1010906@alvestrand.no" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/25/2013 07:28 AM, Matthew
        Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A484162816C1@tk5ex14mbxc272.redmond.corp.microsoft.com"
        type="cite">
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It

              is a much simpler question as there&#8217;s only a couple of
              options left&#8230; how about we throw it on the floor? That
              seems safest to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;d

              still love to hear why it is &#8220;needed&#8221; though.</span></p>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      The fact that Matthew doesn't want to accept the arguments for why
      it is needed doesn't seem relevant to me.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Until Randell's message arrived a few hours before yours, there was
    no concise summary of why it might be needed.<br>
    <br>
    Never mind that your personal view as to whether or not to just
    ignore my technical arguments offhand because they're sent by me is
    hardly relevant to the rest of the working group.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:517A1102.1010906@alvestrand.no" type="cite"> <br>
      I think people have said enough times that they see value in the
      label concept, and they want some way to carry it. The OPEN
      message is a simple way to fill that need (and also makes some
      other aspects of setup simpler than they would otherwise be).<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    And as I pointed out in my original message on this topic, which
    until Randell's message was met with silence, the only thing that
    made sense to me was the label field, and yet the label can be null,
    so might also be useless.<br>
    <br>
    Matthew Kaufman<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------050202090408000906040203--

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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 26, 2013, at 6:33 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:

> On 04/26/2013 03:16 PM, Tim Panton wrote:
>>=20
>> On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>>=20
>>> Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors =
but bad for all the rest.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is =
_exactly_ the same
>> (conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP =
packets from the stream, do some
>> stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic =
settings back up to the (s)rtp
>> layer.
>=20
> So you're saying that the gateway doesn't have to decrypt and =
re-encrypt the packets?

Correct - the gateway does not have to decrypt and re-encrypt the SRTP =
packets.  The gateway only has to interwork the signaling between SDES =
and DTLS-SRTP-EKT.  Such signaling interworking is necessary when the =
call is initially set up and when the SRTP key is changed (e.g., a new =
person joins a call using their own key, or the SRTP key is exhausted =
[pretty unlikely, even with video]).  This was summarized in =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-rtcweb-3.pdf


>=20
> I think EKT may be a problem, as Inaki pointed out, but I have less =
qualms about supporting DTLS and making it optional to use EKT on some =
calls than I have about mandating support for SDES.

-d


> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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--20cf302ef9d89c1c6f04db43fbf7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take a
look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser interop.
>
https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html
>
> I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.

IMHO the WG should really consider the above mess due to the usage of SDP
as an API surface. It is just terrible.

--20cf302ef9d89c1c6f04db43fbf7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

<p dir="ltr"><br>
&gt; If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take a look at the &#39;reference implementation&#39; of browser to browser interop.<br>
&gt; <a href="https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html">https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.<br></p>
<p dir="ltr">IMHO the WG should really consider the above mess due to the usage of SDP as an API surface. It is just terrible.</p>

--20cf302ef9d89c1c6f04db43fbf7--

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From: Oscar Ohlsson <oscar.ohlsson@ericsson.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I'm also in favour of supporting SDES (no big surprise). But we need to ana=
lyze how SDES should be enabled and how it can be negotiated in SDP. If peo=
ple are concerned with bidding down attacks then we could add a separate Ja=
vaScript instruction for enabling SDES. If SDES is not enabled then it woul=
dn't be offered or accepted.

Regards,

Oscar


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Xavier Marjou
Sent: den 26 april 2013 10:50
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

+1 for supporting SDES as a=A0keying method for WebRTC
Cheers,
Xavier

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@siemens-ente=
rprise.com> wrote:
Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.

Regards
Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>
> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. =A0It
> seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an
> SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels? =A0Ekr: What is needed to realize
> this?
>
> Richard Ejzak
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> >
> > Matthew Kaufman
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
> RTCWeb
> > >
> > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > WebRTC.
> > >
> > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > Verizon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > >
> > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. =A0As we prepare for
> > that
> > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support
> for
> > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > proposed.
> > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it
> to
> > the chairs or the list.
> > >
> > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From fluffy@iii.ca  Fri Apr 26 07:58:45 2013
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Uh, rereading that paragraph, the word "support" got used a lot of times =
- my apologies.=20

We had previously deferred the WG discussion about SDP Security =
Descriptions but we would like to try and resolve that issue. What we =
are asking for is for people to suggest what they want the drafts to say =
on this topic and why. Exactly the sort of discussion we have seen from =
the people that replied to this thread was the type of thing we where =
hoping for.=20

Answers inline below ...


On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:19 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:

> On 04/25/2013 05:57 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further =
discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) =
would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that =
discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for =
that approach which indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  =
If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to the =
chairs or the list.
>=20
> Sorry, I got lost in the levels of support.
>=20
> Are you asking for indications of support for the idea of supporting =
SDES (in which case you should also be asking for indications of support =
for the idea of NOT supporting SDES),

yes, glad to hear about both of these. I'd view "MUST NOT ever do SDES =
or even talk about. If you receive SDP with SDES in in the browser MUST =
reformat the hard drive and send a report to the EFF" as one level of =
"support" we could choose. (OK not one I would support but you get the =
idea) =20

> or are you asking for indications of support for the idea of having a =
discussion about supporting SDES?

No, we did not mean to ask that, we were just presumptively starting the =
discussion. If no one wants to talk about it I assumed there would be =
silence on the list or push back on that. It's currently listed as an =
open issues in the WG draft.=20

>=20
>            Harald
>=20



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Tim,

   I disagree with the argument on the interop that  a media gateway is
always required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that work
fine with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media gateway. I
am sure this is true for examples other than Cisco.

Thanks
Suhas Nandakumar


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:

>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 00:01, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
> > The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's
> words):
> >
> > (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
> > (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.
> >
> > Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:
>
> I don't buy the interop argument.
> There are (as we have all now discovered) no legacy devices that do SRTP
> (SDES only) and Ice/STUN/rtcp-mux/bundle
> as required to consume the UDP that chrome (for example) generates. We
> will _always_ need a media gateway in front of
> any current legacy devices to de-ice/de-mux/ etc the media streams from
> webRTC.
>
> (Note: I refuse to take into account the oxymoronic 'future legacy'
> devices that current legacy providers may build at some point in the
> future).
>
> So the question is how heavy does that media gateway have to be?
> Does adding DTLS as a key exchange method make they exorbitant to build?
> It turns out that it doesn't.
>
> Remembering that DTLS is only used here as a key-exchange
> protocol you can just put a DTLS filter in your UDP layer (alongside the
> ICE /demux code) and pop the SRTP keys out of it.
> Those keys can then be used by current SRTP hardware and software.
>
> So the overhead is limited to the key-exchange itself. It will make call
> set-up mor expensive, but as someone pointed out there are
> a few websites that seem to cope with https - so I dare say we will learn
> to live with it.
>
> Tim.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px=
">Tim,=A0</span><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=A0 =
=A0I disagree with the argument on the interop that =A0a media gateway is a=
lways required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that work fine=
 with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media gateway. I am s=
ure this is true for examples other than Cisco.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Thanks</div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Suhas Nandakumar</div></di=
v>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 2=
6, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Tim Panton <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tim@=
phonefromhere.com" target=3D"_blank">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br>
On 26 Apr 2013, at 00:01, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam&#39;=
s words):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and<br>
&gt; (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reason (1) is a fairly big deal. =A0There are other reasons:<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t buy the interop argument.<br>
There are (as we have all now discovered) no legacy devices that do SRTP (S=
DES only) and Ice/STUN/rtcp-mux/bundle<br>
as required to consume the UDP that chrome (for example) generates. We will=
 _always_ need a media gateway in front of<br>
any current legacy devices to de-ice/de-mux/ etc the media streams from web=
RTC.<br>
<br>
(Note: I refuse to take into account the oxymoronic &#39;future legacy&#39;=
 devices that current legacy providers may build at some point in the futur=
e).<br>
<br>
So the question is how heavy does that media gateway have to be?<br>
Does adding DTLS as a key exchange method make they exorbitant to build?<br=
>
It turns out that it doesn&#39;t.<br>
<br>
Remembering that DTLS is only used here as a key-exchange<br>
protocol you can just put a DTLS filter in your UDP layer (alongside the IC=
E /demux code) and pop the SRTP keys out of it.<br>
Those keys can then be used by current SRTP hardware and software.<br>
<br>
So the overhead is limited to the key-exchange itself. It will make call se=
t-up mor expensive, but as someone pointed out there are<br>
a few websites that seem to cope with https - so I dare say we will learn t=
o live with it.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Tim.<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">_____________________=
__________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f46d043bdce62770f104db462265--

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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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And is it so hard for Cisco to make those new WebRTC capable devices DTLS
aware? Is that really harder than the ICE/bundle/SAVPF stuff already
implemented in those devices?

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 26/04/2013 18:36, "Suhas Nandakumar" <suhasietf@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3=
:

> Tim,
>
>    I disagree with the argument on the interop that  a media gateway is
> always required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that work
> fine with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media gateway. =
I
> am sure this is true for examples other than Cisco.
>
> Thanks
> Suhas Nandakumar
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote=
:
>
>>
>> On 26 Apr 2013, at 00:01, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>
>> > The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam's
>> words):
>> >
>> > (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and
>> > (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.
>> >
>> > Reason (1) is a fairly big deal.  There are other reasons:
>>
>> I don't buy the interop argument.
>> There are (as we have all now discovered) no legacy devices that do SRTP
>> (SDES only) and Ice/STUN/rtcp-mux/bundle
>> as required to consume the UDP that chrome (for example) generates. We
>> will _always_ need a media gateway in front of
>> any current legacy devices to de-ice/de-mux/ etc the media streams from
>> webRTC.
>>
>> (Note: I refuse to take into account the oxymoronic 'future legacy'
>> devices that current legacy providers may build at some point in the
>> future).
>>
>> So the question is how heavy does that media gateway have to be?
>> Does adding DTLS as a key exchange method make they exorbitant to build?
>> It turns out that it doesn't.
>>
>> Remembering that DTLS is only used here as a key-exchange
>> protocol you can just put a DTLS filter in your UDP layer (alongside the
>> ICE /demux code) and pop the SRTP keys out of it.
>> Those keys can then be used by current SRTP hardware and software.
>>
>> So the overhead is limited to the key-exchange itself. It will make call
>> set-up mor expensive, but as someone pointed out there are
>> a few websites that seem to cope with https - so I dare say we will lear=
n
>> to live with it.
>>
>> Tim.
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">And is it so hard for Cisco to make those new WebRTC capable=
 devices DTLS aware? Is that really harder than the ICE/bundle/SAVPF stuff =
already implemented in those devices?<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 26/04/2013 18:36, &quot;Suhas Nandakumar&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suhasietf@gmail.com">suhasietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; es=
cribi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px=
">Tim,=C2=A0</span><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13p=
x"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0I disagree with the argument on the interop that =C2=A0a media ga=
teway is always required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that=
 work fine with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media gatew=
ay. I am sure this is true for examples other than Cisco.</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Thanks</div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Suhas Nandakumar</div></di=
v>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 2=
6, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Tim Panton <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tim@=
phonefromhere.com" target=3D"_blank">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br>
On 26 Apr 2013, at 00:01, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; The case for SDES has thus far been summarized as (borrowing Adam&#39;=
s words):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (1) Those required for interop with legacy devices, and<br>
&gt; (2) those which we are prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reason (1) is a fairly big deal. =C2=A0There are other reasons:<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t buy the interop argument.<br>
There are (as we have all now discovered) no legacy devices that do SRTP (S=
DES only) and Ice/STUN/rtcp-mux/bundle<br>
as required to consume the UDP that chrome (for example) generates. We will=
 _always_ need a media gateway in front of<br>
any current legacy devices to de-ice/de-mux/ etc the media streams from web=
RTC.<br>
<br>
(Note: I refuse to take into account the oxymoronic &#39;future legacy&#39;=
 devices that current legacy providers may build at some point in the futur=
e).<br>
<br>
So the question is how heavy does that media gateway have to be?<br>
Does adding DTLS as a key exchange method make they exorbitant to build?<br=
>
It turns out that it doesn&#39;t.<br>
<br>
Remembering that DTLS is only used here as a key-exchange<br>
protocol you can just put a DTLS filter in your UDP layer (alongside the IC=
E /demux code) and pop the SRTP keys out of it.<br>
Those keys can then be used by current SRTP hardware and software.<br>
<br>
So the overhead is limited to the key-exchange itself. It will make call se=
t-up mor expensive, but as someone pointed out there are<br>
a few websites that seem to cope with https - so I dare say we will learn t=
o live with it.<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Tim.<br>
</font></span><div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>

--047d7b5dbdcc80e04304db463536--

From alan.b.johnston@gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:40 2013
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From: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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What about the API considerations?

If two browsers have a source of keying material, such as a preshared key,
or material derived from something else (i.e. keys on flash drives), the
API needs to be able to give this key to the browser to use.  This API
issue is orthogonal to whether the key has been shared over an insecure
signaling channel or not.

- Alan -


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

> On 4/25/13 17:11, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
>> Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted
>> using keys provided by security descriptions.
>>
>
> The arguments for SDES fall into two categories, AFAICT: (1) Those
> required for interop with legacy devices, and (2) those which we are
> prohibited by RFC 2804 from considering. And there is no possible way
> DataChannels are going to interop with legacy devices.
>
> I agree with Alan that we shouldn't make accommodations to use SDES for
> the brower-to-browser case. By implication, this means that the presence of
> DataChannels necessarily means that we're using DTLS-SRTP for the whole
> session. Given those assumptions, the mixed-session scenario you describe
> does not arise.
>
> /a
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">What about the API considerations?<div><br></div><div styl=
e>If two browsers have a source of keying material, such as a preshared key=
, or material derived from something else (i.e. keys on flash drives), the =
API needs to be able to give this key to the browser to use. =A0This API is=
sue is orthogonal to whether the key has been shared over an insecure signa=
ling channel or not.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>- Alan -</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ada=
m Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D=
"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 4/25/13 17:11, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Data channels can continue to use DTLS even though media is encrypted using=
 keys provided by security descriptions.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The arguments for SDES fall into two categories, AFAICT: (1) Those required=
 for interop with legacy devices, and (2) those which we are prohibited by =
RFC 2804 from considering. And there is no possible way DataChannels are go=
ing to interop with legacy devices.<br>

<br>
I agree with Alan that we shouldn&#39;t make accommodations to use SDES for=
 the brower-to-browser case. By implication, this means that the presence o=
f DataChannels necessarily means that we&#39;re using DTLS-SRTP for the who=
le session. Given those assumptions, the mixed-session scenario you describ=
e does not arise.<br>

<br>
/a<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Have anybody tried an international call with ICE and DTLS enabled? The
call setup delay introduced by the combination of the two is long enough to
go from being simply annoying to the point of other person hanging up
assuming the call is not working. Right now the only workaround is using
SDES.
_____________
Roman Shpount

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Have anybody tried an international call wi=
th ICE and DTLS enabled? The call setup delay introduced by the combination=
 of the two is long enough to go from being simply=A0annoying to the point =
of other person hanging up assuming the call is not working. Right now the =
only workaround is using SDES.=A0</div>
<div>_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div><br><div>=A0</div></div>

--047d7b6d9a887261a804db466126--

From tim@phonefromhere.com  Fri Apr 26 10:23:41 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 17:36, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:

> Tim,=20
>=20
>    I disagree with the argument on the interop that  a media gateway =
is always required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that =
work fine with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media =
gateway. I am sure this is true for examples other than Cisco.

That's not a legacy device then.
So they can just add DTLS support in the next release and they are still =
good.

T.


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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 17:36, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Tim,&nbsp;</span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">&nbsp; &nbsp;I disagree with the argument on the interop that &nbsp;a media gateway is always required. Cisco for example have been shipping devices that work fine with webrtc browsers that do H.264 without needing a media gateway. I am sure this is true for examples other than Cisco.</div>
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>That's not a legacy device then.</div><div><div>So they can just add DTLS support in the next release and they are still good.</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div></div><br></body></html>
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From: "DRUTA, DAN" <dd5826@att.com>
To: Oscar Ohlsson <oscar.ohlsson@ericsson.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I would like to see the user-agent support for SDES as a "MUST" for RTCWeb.=
=20
I don't think I need to restate why. One additional point though is that it=
 will make interop easier, expand and accelerate the adoption for RTCWeb/We=
bRTC. Isn't this the ultimate goal? =20
In regards to security considerations I would challenge the group to come u=
p with ways to identify and convey the risks back to the end user through t=
he user-agent implementation in a very simple and easy to understand UI (if=
 necessary). I know this could be a big rat hole and I can hear already arg=
uments that it's already too confusing but as the Web is becoming more of a=
 platform and browser complexity increases we should acknowledge it with be=
tter transparency rather than with restrictions and limitations. Users make=
 their own decisions in the end.

Best Regards,
Dan
   =20

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Oscar Ohlsson
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:57 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

I'm also in favour of supporting SDES (no big surprise). But we need to ana=
lyze how SDES should be enabled and how it can be negotiated in SDP. If peo=
ple are concerned with bidding down attacks then we could add a separate Ja=
vaScript instruction for enabling SDES. If SDES is not enabled then it woul=
dn't be offered or accepted.

Regards,

Oscar


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Xavier Marjou
Sent: den 26 april 2013 10:50
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

+1 for supporting SDES as a=A0keying method for WebRTC
Cheers,
Xavier

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@siemens-ente=
rprise.com> wrote:
Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.

Regards
Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>
> I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. =A0It
> seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an
> SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels? =A0Ekr: What is needed to realize
> this?
>
> Richard Ejzak
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> >
> > Matthew Kaufman
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
> RTCWeb
> > >
> > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > WebRTC.
> > >
> > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > Verizon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > >
> > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. =A0As we prepare for
> > that
> > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support
> for
> > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > proposed.
> > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it
> to
> > the chairs or the list.
> > >
> > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From randell-ietf@jesup.org  Fri Apr 26 10:36:05 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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On 4/26/2013 9:53 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 2:42 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>> On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>>> So with my co-chair hat on here…
>>>
>>> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and 
>>> have come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
>>>
>>> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think we 
>>> need OPEN
>>
>> The Open message has some important and useful properties:
>>
>> 1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing 
>> network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a 
>> large portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it 
>> really easy for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream 
>> them want with little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs 
>> they're already used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label 
>> field will avoid the JS programmer having to build their own 
>> mini-protocol to identify their channels (and this is especially 
>> painful for them if it's an unreliable channel).
>
> Easier how? The initiating side needs to create their object without 
> the benefit of the contents of an open message. If a JS developer 
> isn't smart enough to set up the channel parameters they want at the 
> initiating end, then there's nothing we can do for them. There's then 
> several ways forward after that, including "the other side does the 
> same thing to create their end" (my preference) and "the parameters 
> are transported using the existing SDP O/A mechanism to the far end" 
> (generally how the WG solves this kind of problem).
>
> As far as I can tell, the one useful thing in the OPEN message is the 
> label (as I pointed out in my very first inquiry about why anyone 
> thought it was needed), and yet the label is allowed to be null, so in 
> that case how can it be helpful?

It's helpful if you need it (if you're opening a number of channels, 
such as one per participant in a conference).  Protocol is also helpful 
(note it's in the dictionary and is also optional); both for 
cross-application channels and for within an app to indicate what 
handling logic the channel should feed.

// pseudo-codey:
function called_from_ondatachanne(event) {
   channel = event.channel;
   if (channel.protocol == "file transfer") { channel.onmessage = 
handle_incoming_file; }
   else if (channel.protocol == "chat") {chat = new 
chat_instance(channel.label); channel.onmessage = chat.incoming; }
}

>
>>
>> 2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange data, 
>> by having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and 
>> there was strong agreement on it's being needed for that at 
>> Atlanta.)  With external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for 
>> different apps to interoperate, since they'd need to agree on 
>> negotiation protocols as well, which are likely to be highly 
>> divergent between apps.
>
> If we went with "negotiated via the SDP O/A mechanism" then we could 
> go to our favorite SDP-defining WG and have a negotiation protocol 
> that is standardized, so not divergent at all between apps.

We also don't have one that's divergent by using Open (and we leave the 
option of externally negotiating or pre-defining channels). And SDP is 
at least one signaling-RTT to complete, plus a bunch of logic to handle 
matching everything up (what if channels disappear in the offer or 
answer, or in an offer or answer they change properties? What if the 
signaling channel is slow or unavailable any more (server rebooted, 
server has network issues, etc)?

I'm not saying there aren't answers/solutions to all these.  But those 
answers and solutions would need to be speced out or at least 
understood, and the code to handle all of them is likely to be similar 
in scope (though quite different in detail).  And the less done in SDP, 
the better IMHO; I have no wish to increase our reliance on SDP.

>>
>> 3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes 
>> the issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data 
>> that arrives unexpectedly) simpler.
>
> I disagree. It increases the number of possible states... there's 
> cases where the OPEN message arrives but the application doesn't want 
> to be receiving that data, and the cases where the OPEN message 
> doesn't arrive but the application does want the data that is already 
> arriving. Both of those states don't exist if there's no OPEN message.

My point was you need to decide what to do with that data regardless of 
if the channel gets created with a delayed OPEN or with a delayed 
external negotiation.  And with OPEN, those cases don't even arise for 
ordered channels.

>
>> With Open, only degenerate cases can cause more than a relatively 
>> small amount of data to be buffered.
>
> Sure, but those degenerate cases occur many times per day on the real 
> Internet.

I doubt that.  The degenerate cases for Open require that all the open 
packets get lost, while a sizable amount of non-open packets get through 
- and after a time, SCTP will fail the entire association if reliable 
data isn't getting through.  Plus, as I indicated, we can also have 
limits on time and/or amount of data buffered.

Also: nothing *requires* that an application send data immediately on 
onopen.  An application can institute it's own handshake trivially:
function my_ondatachannel(event) { 
event.channel.send(ok_to_start_sending); ... }

>
>> With external notification, the external negotiation channel can fail 
>> (or be very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the 
>> negotiated values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering 
>> requirements - or you punt the problem to the application by 
>> delivering the data, but the application is facing the same conundrum 
>> of buffer it or throw it away.
>>
>>> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with 
>>> unexpected data before the OPEN
>>
>>
>> The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external 
>> negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).
>>
>> *tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that 
>> would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with 
>> Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below. I also would be 
>> ok with B, but I realize others may not be.
>>
>> Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of 
>> dynamic channels must use one of these:
>>
>> A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready 
>> to receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or
>>
>> B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages 
>> are delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or
>>
>> C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with 
>> data being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are exceeded, or
>>
>> D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I 
>> don't know what with it.
>>
>> For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading to 
>> hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open 
>> or external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to open.
>>
>> Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios
>
> So if that's true, then why do we need it?

This was a discussion of "what to do with data that arrives unexpectedly 
(i.e. before Open, or before the application installed the result of an 
external negotiation); this was the original point of the thread before 
you decided to question the selection of Open as a message.

The caveat at the top was "external negotiation of dynamic channels must 
do one of these" regardless of whether Open is supported.  The options 
for use with Open are the same, but the amount of data that can be 
buffered is smaller (since with external negotiation there are no limits 
on the amount that could attempt to be queued -- the same applies SDP if 
you allow the sender to send data before the negotiation is complete; 
SDP is effectively a form of external negotiation).

>
>> -- and in fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it 
>> reduces the problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered 
>> channels (in ordered channels Open will always be first).
>>
>> Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It 
>> means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a 
>> new channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to 
>> start sending data on that channel.
>
> Of course this is different from the TCP model, where the buffering 
> happens at the *sender* until the handshake is complete.

Ok, but this isn't TCP.  And handshakes (and the resultant delay before 
onopen fired) were eliminated in order to respond to the requests of 
multiple people, giving us a 0-RTT declarative protocol where you can 
send immediately, which will help apps that need to exchange data 
quickly at the start of a connection.

> The problem here is that we have an existing mechanism inside of SCTP 
> and then we're adding another layer on top of that which is neither 
> inside SCTP (where it probably belongs) or under the application 
> developer's control (where I'd like to see it, if the data transport 
> protocol can't have it), and this layer conflicts with what both of 
> those might be doing.

If you're referring to Open, you can totally ignore Open and not use it 
in your datachannels, and use all external negotiation or pre-defined 
channels.  If you want, you can just pre-define N open channels that the 
other side can then use to send data to you, and nothing will ever be 
buffered, and you can handle it all yourself.

>
>> Note that with external negotiation (possibly on a non p2p path, like 
>> via signaling), the receiver might not know what to install for a 
>> short while, especially if there's a routing issue or server issue 
>> (not a problem that happens with Open).
>
> Which is fine if the sender doesn't start sending (like TCP). Or if 
> the transport protocol itself handles the delivery of the channel 
> metadata. (Which is what SCTP, or whatever transport we choose for 
> RTCWEB, should do) then you just handle the label and whatever other 
> metadata the receiver would like to know at that layer.

I.e. data streams from RTMFP, I take it? ;-)

>
>>
>> Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this 
>> problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems 
>> reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small 
>> buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that 
>> apps using external negotiation can just send largish data 
>> immediately - and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely 
>> occurrence even in most external negotiation cases.  If people want 
>> to bikeshed on the buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)
>>
>> Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a trivial 
>> amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving 
>> side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external 
>> negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).
>>
>>
>
> Another great argument for having this negotiation happen within the 
> transport itself.

If you want to argue for replacing SCTP as the base layer - we made that 
decision a good long while ago.  And there's a good, maintained, 
BSD-licensed implementation - and the authors of that are working with 
us here in designing a DataChannel protocol to ride on top of it.  If 
you want to argue that the layer on top of SCTP should be handshaked 
once again (as it was until people objected) that's up to you to make 
the case for.

IMO:
I'd like to avoid continuing to circle through the range of all possible 
protocols one at a time, repeating every few months.  I'll assert we can 
bikeshed on this until we all retire, and we'll never have something 
that makes everyone entirely happy (unless most people get tired and 
stop caring).  All solutions have tradeoffs; none is perfect for all 
use-cases and users.  We arrived at a proposal that had general 
agreement in the room to move forward with per the consensus call, and 
I'm preparing a WG draft in response to that.  Some may like it more and 
some less, but there was agreement that people could work with it.

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:36:54 +0200
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
To: "DRUTA, DAN" <dd5826@att.com>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Adding DTLS is a little effort compared to adding ICE / bundle / SAVPF to a
device. I could understand the latency problem argument however, but not
the "easy interop" argument which has become a headache and forced the SDP
API adoption which makes WebRTC much harder than it could be.

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 26/04/2013 19:27, "DRUTA, DAN" <dd5826@att.com> escribi=C3=B3:

> I would like to see the user-agent support for SDES as a "MUST" for RTCWe=
b.
> I don't think I need to restate why. One additional point though is that
> it will make interop easier, expand and accelerate the adoption for
> RTCWeb/WebRTC. Isn't this the ultimate goal?
> In regards to security considerations I would challenge the group to come
> up with ways to identify and convey the risks back to the end user throug=
h
> the user-agent implementation in a very simple and easy to understand UI
> (if necessary). I know this could be a big rat hole and I can hear alread=
y
> arguments that it's already too confusing but as the Web is becoming more
> of a platform and browser complexity increases we should acknowledge it
> with better transparency rather than with restrictions and limitations.
> Users make their own decisions in the end.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Oscar Ohlsson
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:57 AM
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>
> I'm also in favour of supporting SDES (no big surprise). But we need to
> analyze how SDES should be enabled and how it can be negotiated in SDP. I=
f
> people are concerned with bidding down attacks then we could add a separa=
te
> JavaScript instruction for enabling SDES. If SDES is not enabled then it
> wouldn't be offered or accepted.
>
> Regards,
>
> Oscar
>
>
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Xavier Marjou
> Sent: den 26 april 2013 10:50
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>
> +1 for supporting SDES as a keying method for WebRTC
> Cheers,
> Xavier
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hutton, Andrew <
> andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com> wrote:
> Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.
>
> Regards
> Andy
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
> > Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> >
> > I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
> >
> > This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.  It
> > seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to provide an
> > SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is needed to realize
> > this?
> >
> > Richard Ejzak
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
> > > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > >
> > > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScript
> > > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get with
> > > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
> > >
> > > Matthew Kaufman
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> > > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
> > RTCWeb
> > > >
> > > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
> > > WebRTC.
> > > >
> > > > Kalyani Bogineni
> > > > Verizon
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
> > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
> > > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)
> > > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
> > > that
> > > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support
> > for
> > > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
> > > proposed.
> > > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it
> > to
> > > the chairs or the list.
> > > >
> > > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">Adding DTLS is a little effort compared to adding ICE / bund=
le / SAVPF to a device. I could understand the latency problem argument how=
ever, but not the &quot;easy interop&quot; argument which has become a head=
ache and forced the SDP API adoption which makes WebRTC much harder than it=
 could be.<br>
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 26/04/2013 19:27, &quot;DRUTA, DAN&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:dd5826@att.com">dd5826@att.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br =
type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I would like to see the user-agent support for SDES as a &quot;MUST&quot; f=
or RTCWeb.<br>
I don&#39;t think I need to restate why. One additional point though is tha=
t it will make interop easier, expand and accelerate the adoption for RTCWe=
b/WebRTC. Isn&#39;t this the ultimate goal?<br>
In regards to security considerations I would challenge the group to come u=
p with ways to identify and convey the risks back to the end user through t=
he user-agent implementation in a very simple and easy to understand UI (if=
 necessary). I know this could be a big rat hole and I can hear already arg=
uments that it&#39;s already too confusing but as the Web is becoming more =
of a platform and browser complexity increases we should acknowledge it wit=
h better transparency rather than with restrictions and limitations. Users =
make their own decisions in the end.<br>

<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a=
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On Behalf Of Oscar Ohlsson<br>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:57 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<br>
<br>
I&#39;m also in favour of supporting SDES (no big surprise). But we need to=
 analyze how SDES should be enabled and how it can be negotiated in SDP. If=
 people are concerned with bidding down attacks then we could add a separat=
e JavaScript instruction for enabling SDES. If SDES is not enabled then it =
wouldn&#39;t be offered or accepted.<br>

<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Oscar<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a=
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On Behalf Of Xavier Marjou<br>
Sent: den 26 april 2013 10:50<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<br>
<br>
+1 for supporting SDES as a=C2=A0keying method for WebRTC<br>
Cheers,<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hutton, Andrew &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andre=
w.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br>
Also agree that we should support SDES in additional to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)<br>
&gt; Sent: 25 April 2013 22:55<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. =C2=
=A0It<br>
&gt; seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don&#39;t we also need to provide =
an<br>
&gt; SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels? =C2=A0Ekr: What is needed to r=
ealize<br>
&gt; this?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Richard Ejzak<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Bogineni, Kalyani; &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mail=
to:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RT=
CWeb<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaSc=
ript<br>
&gt; &gt; is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we&#39;ll =
get with<br>
&gt; &gt; SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Matthew Kaufman<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: &#39;Cullen Jennings&#39;; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf=
.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) a=
nd<br>
&gt; RTCWeb<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method =
for<br>
&gt; &gt; WebRTC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Kalyani Bogineni<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and R=
TCWeb<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The working groups committed some time ago to have a further=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 ak=
a SDES)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. =C2=A0As we p=
repare for<br>
&gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; discussion, we&#39;d like to have expressions of interest or=
 support<br>
&gt; for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; that approach which indicate the general outlines of support=
<br>
&gt; &gt; proposed.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; If you wish to make such an expression of support, please se=
nd it<br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; the chairs or the list.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--e89a8f6469df34bf4a04db46fb06--

From fluffy@iii.ca  Fri Apr 26 10:57:42 2013
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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Thank you summarizing all this.=20

On Apr 25, 2013, at 3:42 PM, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> =
wrote:

> On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>> So with my co-chair hat on here=85
>>=20
>> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and have =
come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
>>=20
>> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think we =
need OPEN
>=20
> The Open message has some important and useful properties:
>=20
> 1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing =
network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a large =
portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it really easy =
for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream them want with =
little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs they're already =
used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label field will avoid the =
JS programmer having to build their own mini-protocol to identify their =
channels (and this is especially painful for them if it's an unreliable =
channel).
>=20
> 2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange data, =
by having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and there =
was strong agreement on it's being needed for that at Atlanta.)  With =
external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for different apps to =
interoperate, since they'd need to agree on negotiation protocols as =
well, which are likely to be highly divergent between apps.
>=20
> 3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes =
the issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data that =
arrives unexpectedly) simpler.  With Open, only degenerate cases can =
cause more than a relatively small amount of data to be buffered.  With =
external notification, the external negotiation channel can fail (or be =
very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the negotiated =
values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering requirements - or you =
punt the problem to the application by delivering the data, but the =
application is facing the same conundrum of buffer it or throw it away.
>=20
>> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with unexpected =
data before the OPEN
>=20
>=20
> The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external =
negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).
>=20
> *tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that =
would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with =
Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below.  I also would be ok =
with B, but I realize others may not be.
>=20
> Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of =
dynamic channels must use one of these:
>=20
> A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready to =
receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or
>=20
> B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages =
are delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or
>=20
> C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with =
data being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are exceeded, or
>=20
> D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I =
don't know what with it.
>=20
> For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading to =
hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open or =
external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to open.
>=20
> Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios -- and in =
fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it reduces the =
problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered channels (in ordered =
channels Open will always be first).
>=20
> Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It =
means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a new =
channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to start =
sending data on that channel.  Note that with external negotiation =
(possibly on a non p2p path, like via signaling), the receiver might not =
know what to install for a short while, especially if there's a routing =
issue or server issue (not a problem that happens with Open).
>=20
> Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this =
problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems =
reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small =
buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that =
apps using external negotiation can just send largish data immediately - =
and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely occurrence even =
in most external negotiation cases.  If people want to bikeshed on the =
buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)
>=20
> Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a trivial =
amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving =
side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external =
negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:36 PM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> wrote=
:

> Adding DTLS is a little effort compared to adding ICE / bundle / SAVPF to
> a device. I could understand the latency problem argument however, but no=
t
> the "easy interop" argument which has become a headache and forced the SD=
P
> API adoption which makes WebRTC much harder than it could be.
>
> I would argue that SDP adoption made WebRTC harder to interop, but there
is already consensus that SDP should be used, so there is no point to talk
about it anymore.

The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS are:

1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS

2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be significant with
high number of short calls being setup. This would be especially
significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP
gateway.

3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code you need
in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the code in
readily available libraries is not needed and represents no functional
value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, compression,
streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of support effort
and can be a security risk (I am talking about something like OpenSSL or
GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing stack).

As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with any
client to server communication applications, since it has no security value
in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and will cause
significant usability, performance, and support issues.
_____________
Roman Shpount

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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:36 PM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net" target=3D"_blank">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Adding DTLS is a little effort compared to adding ICE / bund=
le / SAVPF to a device. I could understand the latency problem argument how=
ever, but not the &quot;easy interop&quot; argument which has become a head=
ache and forced the SDP API adoption which makes WebRTC much harder than it=
 could be.<br>

</p><div class=3D"im">
<p dir=3D"ltr"></p></div></blockquote><div>I would argue that SDP adoption =
made WebRTC harder to interop, but there is already consensus that SDP shou=
ld be used, so there is no point to talk about it anymore.</div><div><br>
</div><div>The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS=
 are:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTL=
S</div><div><br></div><div>2. High computational load on each call setup. T=
his can be significant with high number of short calls being setup. This wo=
uld be especially significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or =
WebRTC to SIP gateway.</div>
<div><br></div><div>3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amou=
nt of code you need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most o=
f the code in readily available libraries is not needed and represents no f=
unctional value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, compress=
ion, streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of support effo=
rt and can be a security risk (I am talking about something like OpenSSL or=
 GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing stack).</div>
<div><br></div><div>As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTL=
S-SRTP with any client to server communication applications, since it has n=
o security value in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and wil=
l cause significant usability, performance, and support issues.</div>
<div>_____________</div><div>Roman Shpount</div><div>=A0</div></div>

--f46d043c819231c18404db474c6a--

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 26, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:

> If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take a=
 look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser interop.
> https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index=
.html
>=20
> I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.

Could you just summarize what the 100 lines do and which theses would be ne=
eded for browsers that implemented the drat standards? I'm trying to dig in=
to what we need to fix.=20





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On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> =
wrote:
> O
> Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I =
see the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not =
browser-legacy.
>=20
> Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean =
it is true.
>=20
> I remind you that the actual title of the group is:
>=20
> "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".  While you may =
disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not fundamentally a =
prediction about what the eventual balance of flows will be.  It's a =
statement about where the balance of effort in the group should go.   To =
me as an individual, it implies that we should not make trade-offs that =
optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case =
except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
>=20
> regards,

Ted, I think rtcweb is about a web brewer being able to communicate to =
lots of things, not just one currently very small island. Our uses and =
discussion from well before this WG was chartered have recognized that =
to be successful, rtrcweb endpoints were going to need to be able to =
call things other than web browsers. You were one of the people that =
pushed hard on the non browser (but also not legacy) uses.=20

I agree with your point that the design of any new communication system =
has to deal with the tradeoff between how it work with previous system =
and how easy it is to build. However, in the case here, I tend towards =
trying to make the a new system that can take advantage of an early =
network effect by being able to talk to lots of existing things. I don't =
believe that Skype would have reach the penetration it currently has =
without PSTN interoperability. I think the same can be said for Google =
Voice and WebEx. =20



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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:

>=20
> On Apr 26, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:
>=20
>> If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, =
take a look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser =
interop.
>> =
https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.=
html
>>=20
>> I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.
>=20
> Could you just summarize what the 100 lines do and which theses would =
be needed for browsers that implemented the drat standards? I'm trying =
to dig into what we need to fix.=20


The bulk of it seems to be there to coerce the browsers to use the =
'best' codec.=20
I see code to remove CN and re-write the m=3D line to get opus as the =
first element.

I think this represents a class of problem where the web programmer will =
want to assert their=20
preferences, and currently SDP munging is the only available API.

I personally doubt that any level of standardisation of the SDP will =
remove the need for such tweaks.

Tim.=

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To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:
>=20
> The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS are:
>=20
> 1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS

This is a serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think we =
will find that in real usage
sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the user =
clicks connect.

>=20
> 2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be significant =
with high number of short calls being setup. This would be especially =
significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP =
gateway.

I would dispute this - remember exactly the same users have almost =
certainly logged into an https:// portal - indeed only a small=20
percentage of them will start a DTLS session for during any given web =
session. The web seems to still be working.

>=20
> 3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code you =
need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the code =
in readily available libraries is not needed and represents no =
functional value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, =
compression, streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of =
support effort and can be a security risk (I am talking about something =
like OpenSSL or GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing stack).

That's true to an extent, but it only applies to devices that don't =
already do TLS for something else.=20
Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp engines, anything offering an https =
management interface, will already have that code
in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific code is quite small.=20

>=20
> As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with any =
client to server communication applications, since it has no security =
value in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and will cause =
significant usability, performance, and support issues.

There I also disagree. The ability to offer a DTLS connection that =
presents a browser checkable x509 certificate for yourbank.com over the
media path in a call to a bank's authorized call center agents might be =
a significant advantage.

T.
=20

> _____________
> Roman Shpount
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount =
wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font>
</div><div>The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of =
DTLS are:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Additional call setup delay caused =
by DTLS</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is a serious =
problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think we will find that in =
real usage</div><div>sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is =
ready to go when the user clicks connect.</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>2. High =
computational load on each call setup. This can be significant with high =
number of short calls being setup. This would be especially significant =
for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP =
gateway.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would dispute =
this - remember exactly the same users have almost certainly logged into =
an https:// portal - indeed only a small&nbsp;</div><div>percentage of =
them will start a DTLS session for during any given web session. The web =
seems to still be working.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div>3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling =
amount of code you need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. =
Most of the code in readily available libraries is not needed and =
represents no functional value (certificate support, unneeded encryption =
methods, compression, streaming, etc), but will require a significant =
amount of support effort and can be a security risk (I am talking about =
something like OpenSSL or GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing =
stack).</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's true to an =
extent, but it only applies to devices that don't already do TLS for =
something else.&nbsp;</div><div>Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp =
engines, anything offering an https management interface, will already =
have that code</div><div>in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific =
code is quite small.&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div>As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use =
DTLS-SRTP with any client to server communication applications, since it =
has no security value in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) =
and will cause significant usability, performance, and support =
issues.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There I also =
disagree. The ability to offer a DTLS connection that presents a browser =
checkable x509 certificate for <a =
href=3D"http://yourbank.com">yourbank.com</a> over the</div><div>media =
path in a call to a bank's authorized call center agents might be a =
significant =
advantage.</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>_____________</div><div>Roman Shpount</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>rtcweb mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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From fluffy@iii.ca  Fri Apr 26 11:48:02 2013
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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To: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
 wrote:

>=20
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Apr 26, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, =
take a look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser =
interop.
>>> =
https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.=
html
>>>=20
>>> I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.
>>=20
>> Could you just summarize what the 100 lines do and which theses would =
be needed for browsers that implemented the drat standards? I'm trying =
to dig into what we need to fix.=20
>=20
>=20
> The bulk of it seems to be there to coerce the browsers to use the =
'best' codec.=20
> I see code to remove CN and re-write the m=3D line to get opus as the =
first element.
>=20
> I think this represents a class of problem where the web programmer =
will want to assert their=20
> preferences, and currently SDP munging is the only available API.
>=20
> I personally doubt that any level of standardisation of the SDP will =
remove the need for such tweaks.

I think that both Firefox and Chrome would agree with was a bug to =
prefer narrowband codecs over wideband codecs. I'd be shocked to =
actually see them prefer narrowband over G.711.=20

I think the older version of Chrome prefer some non standard codec over =
opus but that could change. Allowing an application to change preference =
in that case is a valid reason to munge SDP but not one that most =
applications will probably care about. If we want to avoid this type of =
SDP munging, we could easily add a constraint to the API that allowed =
the application to provide codec preferences along the lines of how =
openssl allows one to provide crypto preferences. I would like to point =
out that this code makes opus always the preferred which is really bad =
for future interoperability. When we come out with opus2, and all the =
browsers support it, this code will still be using opus1. So in my =
opinion, this code would be better if it did not do this and just let =
offer /answer negotiation pick a codec but I digress.=20

If the browsers can't process the SDP with the CN and ignore it, that =
seems like a bug.=20



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(was Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb)

On 26 April 2013 11:07, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 26, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:
>
>> If anyone still thinks that SDP is just a blob not an API surface, take a look at the 'reference implementation' of browser to browser interop.
>> https://code.google.com/p/webrtc-samples/source/browse/trunk/apprtc/index.html
>>
>> I count around 100 lines of javascript munging the SDP.
>
> Could you just summarize what the 100 lines do and which theses would be needed for browsers that implemented the drat standards? I'm trying to dig into what we need to fix.

http://www.webrtc.org/interop

That's probably out of date, but you get the idea.

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:45:04 -0400
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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:

>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:
>
>
> The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS are:
>
> 1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS
>
>
> This is a serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think we
> will find that in real usage
> sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the user
> clicks connect.
>
>
Pre-warming connection before user consent has some security implications
as well. I would much rather see a mechanism to do ICE setup and DTLS key
exchange at the same time. Should we look into extending ICE/STUN to carry
public/private key exchange?

>
> 2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be significant
> with high number of short calls being setup. This would be especially
> significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP
> gateway.
>
>
> I would dispute this - remember exactly the same users have almost
> certainly logged into an https:// portal - indeed only a small
> percentage of them will start a DTLS session for during any given web
> session. The web seems to still be working.
>

Do you dispute that DTLS key exchange represent additional CPU load? If you
dispute that this is additional load is significant, then we can look at
what percentage of the CPU load associated with the call it represents. For
short calls (10 sec or less) it is going to be a significant portion. This
is additional load on the component that is dealing with media, and the
fact that client have already done key exchange with the server is not
relevant.

3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code you need
> in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the code in
> readily available libraries is not needed and represents no functional
> value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, compression,
> streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of support effort
> and can be a security risk (I am talking about something like OpenSSL or
> GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing stack).
>
>
> That's true to an extent, but it only applies to devices that don't
> already do TLS for something else.
> Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp engines, anything offering an https
> management interface, will already have that code
> in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific code is quite small.
>

Once again you are talking about signaling/web interfaces that do
not necessarily run on the some network components, ie TLS can be handled
by web server and then signaling sent over some other protocol to the media
server which will need to support DTLS. Also, in case of web servers there
is a way to do the key exchange once per session and reuse TLS connection
and exchanged keys for multiple requests between the same client and
server. I am not sure there is a mechanism in place to do the same with
DTLS key exchanges in media connection.


> As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with any
> client to server communication applications, since it has no security value
> in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and will cause
> significant usability, performance, and support issues.
>
>
> There I also disagree. The ability to offer a DTLS connection that
> presents a browser checkable x509 certificate for yourbank.com over the
> media path in a call to a bank's authorized call center agents might be a
> significant advantage.
>
>
Do web servers currently validate the remote certificate on DTLS
connections? I assume they do not, so there is no way to validate x509
certificate on the media connection. As far as I know we are not even
supposed to pass DNS names in SDP, so I am not sure what we will be
validating there in the first place.
_____________
Roman Shpount

--001a11c37f5a7e9cdf04db48c57b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Tim Panton <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com" target=3D"_blank=
">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class=3D"im"><div>On 26 A=
pr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font>
</div><div>The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS=
 are:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTL=
S</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>This is a serious probl=
em - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think we will find that in real us=
age</div>
<div>sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the us=
er clicks connect.</div><div class=3D"im"><br></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div>=A0</div><div>Pre-warming connection before user consent has some se=
curity implications as well. I would much rather see a mechanism to do ICE =
setup and DTLS key exchange at the same time. Should we look into extending=
 ICE/STUN to carry public/private key exchange?</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v class=3D"im"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><b=
r></div>
<div>2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be significant=
 with high number of short calls being setup. This would be especially sign=
ificant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP gateway.=
</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I would dispute this - remembe=
r exactly the same users have almost certainly logged into an https:// port=
al - indeed only a small=A0</div><div>percentage of them will start a DTLS =
session for during any given web session. The web seems to still be working=
.</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you dispute that DTLS key e=
xchange represent additional CPU load? If you dispute that this is addition=
al load is significant, then we can look at what percentage of the CPU load=
 associated with the call it represents. For short calls (10 sec or less) i=
t is going to be a significant portion. This is additional load on the comp=
onent that is dealing with media, and the fact that client have already don=
e key exchange with the server is not relevant.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word"><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">
<div>3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code you =
need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the code in r=
eadily available libraries is not needed and represents no functional value=
 (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, compression, streaming,=
 etc), but will require a significant amount of support effort and can be a=
 security risk (I am talking about something like OpenSSL or GnuTLS which e=
nds up in the media processing stack).</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>That&#39;s true to an extent, =
but it only applies to devices that don&#39;t already do TLS for something =
else.=A0</div><div>Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp engines, anything off=
ering an https management interface, will already have that code</div>
<div>in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific code is quite small.=A0</=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Once again you are talking=
 about signaling/web interfaces that do not=A0necessarily run on the some n=
etwork components, ie TLS can be handled by web server and then signaling s=
ent over some other protocol to the media server which will need to support=
 DTLS. Also, in case of web servers there is a way to do the key exchange o=
nce per session and reuse TLS connection and exchanged keys for multiple re=
quests between the same client and server. I am not sure there is a mechani=
sm in place to do the same with DTLS key exchanges in media connection.</di=
v>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div>
As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with any clie=
nt to server communication applications, since it has no security value in =
such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and will cause significant =
usability, performance, and support issues.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>There I also disagree. The abi=
lity to offer a DTLS connection that presents a browser checkable x509 cert=
ificate for <a href=3D"http://yourbank.com" target=3D"_blank">yourbank.com<=
/a> over the</div>
<div>media path in a call to a bank&#39;s authorized call center agents mig=
ht be a significant advantage.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>Do web servers currently validate the remote certifica=
te on DTLS connections? I assume they do not, so there is no way to validat=
e x509 certificate on the media connection. As far as I know we are not eve=
n supposed to pass DNS names in SDP, so I am not sure what we will be valid=
ating there in the first place.</div>
<div>_____________</div><div>Roman Shpount</div></div>

--001a11c37f5a7e9cdf04db48c57b--

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To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 Apr 2013, at 20:45, Roman Shpount wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:
>>=20
>> The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS are:
>>=20
>> 1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS
>=20
> This is a serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think =
we will find that in real usage
> sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the =
user clicks connect.
>=20
> =20
> Pre-warming connection before user consent has some security =
implications as well. I would much rather see a mechanism to do ICE =
setup and DTLS key exchange at the same time. Should we look into =
extending ICE/STUN to carry public/private key exchange?

That's interesting, I'd have to have a _long_ talk with ekr about the =
security risks in that.

>>=20
>> 2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be =
significant with high number of short calls being setup. This would be =
especially significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or =
WebRTC to SIP gateway.
>=20
> I would dispute this - remember exactly the same users have almost =
certainly logged into an https:// portal - indeed only a small=20
> percentage of them will start a DTLS session for during any given web =
session. The web seems to still be working.
>=20
> Do you dispute that DTLS key exchange represent additional CPU load? =
If you dispute that this is additional load is significant, then we can =
look at what percentage of the CPU load associated with the call it =
represents. For short calls (10 sec or less) it is going to be a =
significant portion. This is additional load on the component that is =
dealing with media, and the fact that client have already done key =
exchange with the server is not relevant.

Sorry , I wasn't clear. My point was that there exists a class of =
application that sets up more TLS connections per second and finds the =
cpu load=20
acceptable. - Webservers.=20

>=20
>> 3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code you =
need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the code =
in readily available libraries is not needed and represents no =
functional value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, =
compression, streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of =
support effort and can be a security risk (I am talking about something =
like OpenSSL or GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing stack).
>=20
> That's true to an extent, but it only applies to devices that don't =
already do TLS for something else.=20
> Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp engines, anything offering an https =
management interface, will already have that code
> in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific code is quite small.=20
>=20
> Once again you are talking about signaling/web interfaces that do not =
necessarily run on the some network components, ie TLS can be handled by =
web server and then signaling sent over some other protocol to the media =
server which will need to support DTLS.

Again I wasn't clear. I was talking about your concern about adding =
large swathes of new code to the device's codebase just for DTLS.=20
My point was that if the device has a secure management interface then =
the huge bulk of that code is probably already on there
- being used to set up TLS connections.
I wasn't thinking about reuse of the data or keys, just the compiled =
code.

> Also, in case of web servers there is a way to do the key exchange =
once per session and reuse TLS connection and exchanged keys for =
multiple requests between the same client and server. I am not sure =
there is a mechanism in place to do the same with DTLS key exchanges in =
media connection.

Again, that is an interesting optimization that should probably be =
applied - how long should a DTLS session be kept around on the =
off-chance that
the same connection will be re-made?=20

> =20
>> As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with =
any client to server communication applications, since it has no =
security value in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and =
will cause significant usability, performance, and support issues.
>=20
> There I also disagree. The ability to offer a DTLS connection that =
presents a browser checkable x509 certificate for yourbank.com over the
> media path in a call to a bank's authorized call center agents might =
be a significant advantage.
>=20
>=20
> Do web servers currently validate the remote certificate on DTLS =
connections? I assume they do not, so there is no way to validate x509 =
certificate on the media connection. As far as I know we are not even =
supposed to pass DNS names in SDP, so I am not sure what we will be =
validating there in the first place.

The browser could validate the certificate that was offered over the =
media channel. That validation would be based on it's existing CA roots. =
(as used=20
to validate TLS certs - but in this case the cert is offered by the =
media server, not the web server).=20


Tim.


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 20:45, Roman Shpount wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Tim Panton <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com" =
target=3D"_blank">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class=3D"im"><div>On =
26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:</div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font>
</div><div>The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of =
DTLS are:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Additional call setup delay caused =
by DTLS</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>This is a =
serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think we will find =
that in real usage</div>
<div>sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the =
user clicks connect.</div><div =
class=3D"im"><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Pre-=
warming connection before user consent has some security implications as =
well. I would much rather see a mechanism to do ICE setup and DTLS key =
exchange at the same time. Should we look into extending ICE/STUN to =
carry public/private key =
exchange?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's =
interesting, I'd have to have a _long_ talk with ekr about the security =
risks in that.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div>
<div>2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be =
significant with high number of short calls being setup. This would be =
especially significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC or =
WebRTC to SIP gateway.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I would dispute this - =
remember exactly the same users have almost certainly logged into an =
https:// portal - indeed only a small&nbsp;</div><div>percentage of them =
will start a DTLS session for during any given web session. The web =
seems to still be working.</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you dispute that DTLS =
key exchange represent additional CPU load? If you dispute that this is =
additional load is significant, then we can look at what percentage of =
the CPU load associated with the call it represents. For short calls (10 =
sec or less) it is going to be a significant portion. This is additional =
load on the component that is dealing with media, and the fact that =
client have already done key exchange with the server is not =
relevant.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry , I wasn't =
clear. My point was that there exists a class of application that sets =
up more TLS connections per second and finds the cpu =
load&nbsp;</div><div>acceptable. - =
Webservers.&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>3. High complexity -- you are doubling or tripling amount of code =
you need in your SRTP stack to support DTLS negotiations. Most of the =
code in readily available libraries is not needed and represents no =
functional value (certificate support, unneeded encryption methods, =
compression, streaming, etc), but will require a significant amount of =
support effort and can be a security risk (I am talking about something =
like OpenSSL or GnuTLS which ends up in the media processing =
stack).</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>That's true to an extent, =
but it only applies to devices that don't already do TLS for something =
else.&nbsp;</div><div>Webservers, web browsers, Sip/xmpp engines, =
anything offering an https management interface, will already have that =
code</div>
<div>in use for other purposes. The DTLS specific code is quite =
small.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Once =
again you are talking about signaling/web interfaces that do =
not&nbsp;necessarily run on the some network components, ie TLS can be =
handled by web server and then signaling sent over some other protocol =
to the media server which will need to support DTLS. =
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again I wasn't clear. I was =
talking about your concern about adding large swathes of new code to the =
device's codebase just for DTLS.&nbsp;</div><div>My point was =
that&nbsp;if the device has a secure management interface then the huge =
bulk of that code is probably already on there</div><div>- being used to =
set up TLS connections.</div><div>I wasn't thinking about reuse of the =
data or keys, just the compiled code.</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Also, in case of web =
servers there is a way to do the key exchange once per session and reuse =
TLS connection and exchanged keys for multiple requests between the same =
client and server. I am not sure there is a mechanism in place to do the =
same with DTLS key exchanges in media =
connection.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again, that is =
an interesting optimization that should probably be applied - how long =
should a DTLS session be kept around on the off-chance =
that</div><div>the same connection will be =
re-made?&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto; "><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div =
class=3D"im"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
As it stands right now, I would prefer never to use DTLS-SRTP with any =
client to server communication applications, since it has no security =
value in such scenarios (server can access media anyway) and will cause =
significant usability, performance, and support issues.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>There I also disagree. The =
ability to offer a DTLS connection that presents a browser checkable =
x509 certificate for <a href=3D"http://yourbank.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">yourbank.com</a> over the</div>
<div>media path in a call to a bank's authorized call center agents =
might be a significant =
advantage.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>Do web servers currently validate the remote certificate on DTLS =
connections? I assume they do not, so there is no way to validate x509 =
certificate on the media connection. As far as I know we are not even =
supposed to pass DNS names in SDP, so I am not sure what we will be =
validating there in the first =
place.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The browser could =
validate the certificate that was offered over the media channel. That =
validation would be based on it's existing CA roots. (as =
used&nbsp;</div>to validate TLS certs - but in this case the cert is =
offered by the media server, not the web =
server).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Tim.</div><div><br>=
</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_1A084365-5503-4AAA-A40E-E0A0B93E3C8A--

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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 26 April 2013 13:10, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 20:45, Roman Shpount wrote:
>> Pre-warming connection before user consent has some security implications as
>> well. I would much rather see a mechanism to do ICE setup and DTLS key
>> exchange at the same time. Should we look into extending ICE/STUN to carry
>> public/private key exchange?
>
>
> That's interesting, I'd have to have a _long_ talk with ekr about the
> security risks in that.

That the essence of http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-rtcweb-ice-dtls-00

In theory, it's possible to squash ICE and DTLS to save round trips.
In practice, it mucks with software layering in nasty ways.

From ekr@rtfm.com  Fri Apr 26 16:41:01 2013
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On Apr 27, 2013, at 0:53, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> Have anybody tried an international call with ICE and DTLS enabled? The ca=
ll setup delay introduced by the combination of the two is long enough to go=
 from being simply annoying to the point of other person hanging up assuming=
 the call is not working.=20
> _____________

Funny you should ask. I'm in Taipei now and did a call to Texas from my hote=
l this morning and call setup time was fine.

With that said I have seen wildly varying call setup times with the same mac=
hines and software on the same network setup, so no doubt there are still so=
me lurking bugs. If you can capture traces of long setup times with Firefox o=
r Chrome I would certainly be interested in investigating.

Ekr

> Roman Shpount
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in DataChannel.

/Salvatore

On 4/26/13 2:35 PM, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
> SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer. Why do we 
> need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?
>
> --
> Iñaki Baz Castillo
> <ibc@aliax.net <mailto:ibc@aliax.net>>
>
> El 25/04/2013 23:55, "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" 
> <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com 
> <mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>> escribió:
>
>     I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
>     This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.
>      It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to
>     provide an SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is
>     needed to realize this?
>
>     Richard Ejzak
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
>     > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
>     > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     >
>     > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from
>     JavaScript
>     > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get
>     with
>     > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
>     >
>     > Matthew Kaufman
>     >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
>     > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
>     > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
>     > WebRTC.
>     > >
>     > > Kalyani Bogineni
>     > > Verizon
>     > >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
>     > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
>     > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
>     > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka
>     SDES)
>     > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
>     > that
>     > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or
>     support for
>     > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
>     > proposed.
>     > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send
>     it to
>     > the chairs or the list.
>     > >
>     > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > rtcweb mailing list
>     > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > rtcweb mailing list
>     > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > rtcweb mailing list
>     > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     _______________________________________________
>     rtcweb mailing list
>     rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--------------020501090007060108000802
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in DataChannel.<br>
      <br>
      /Salvatore<br>
      <br>
      On 4/26/13 2:35 PM, I&ntilde;aki Baz Castillo wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CALiegfnRLD=kf+a9-JC2bdk5T90taYXhQywJfERE5xEbOBmDwA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <p dir="ltr">SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP
        layer. Why do we need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete
        new technology?<br>
      </p>
      <p dir="ltr">--<br>
        I&ntilde;aki Baz Castillo<br>
        &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
      <div class="gmail_quote">El 25/04/2013 23:55, "Ejzak, Richard P
        (Richard)" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com">richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;
        escribi&oacute;:<br type="attribution">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to
          DTLS-SRTP.<br>
          <br>
          This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for
          DataChannels. &nbsp;It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we
          also need to provide an SDES keying mechanism for
          DataChannels? &nbsp;Ekr: What is needed to realize this?<br>
          <br>
          Richard Ejzak<br>
          <br>
          &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
          &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
          [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
          On<br>
          &gt; Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
          &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM<br>
          &gt; To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC
          4568) and RTCWeb<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys
          from JavaScript<br>
          &gt; is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best
          we'll get with<br>
          &gt; SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably
          limiting.<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; Matthew Kaufman<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
          &gt; &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
          [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
          On<br>
          &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani<br>
          &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
          &gt; &gt; To: 'Cullen Jennings'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC
          4568) and RTCWeb<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying
          method for<br>
          &gt; WebRTC.<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; Kalyani Bogineni<br>
          &gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
          &gt; &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
          [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
          On<br>
          &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
          &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM<br>
          &gt; &gt; To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; &gt; Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC
          4568) and RTCWeb<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; The working groups committed some time ago to have a
          further<br>
          &gt; &gt; discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC
          4568 aka SDES)<br>
          &gt; &gt; would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. &nbsp;As
          we prepare for<br>
          &gt; that<br>
          &gt; &gt; discussion, we'd like to have expressions of
          interest or support for<br>
          &gt; &gt; that approach which indicate the general outlines of
          support<br>
          &gt; proposed.<br>
          &gt; &gt; If you wish to make such an expression of support,
          please send it to<br>
          &gt; the chairs or the list.<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
          &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
          &gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb"
            target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
          &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
          &gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
          &gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb"
            target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
          &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
          &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb"
            target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          rtcweb mailing list<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb"
            target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
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From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Sat Apr 27 07:17:18 2013
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:17:15 +0000
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Hi,

As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that requ=
ire intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP offers.

Regards,

Christer

Sent from Windows using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com)

-----Original Message-----
From: I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo [ibc@aliax.net]
To: Tim Panton [tim@phonefromhere.com]
CC: rtcweb@ietf.org [rtcweb@ietf.org]
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

The problem is when EKT is also used and the gateway must send SIP reINVITE=
 by itself as the proposed "solution diagram" shows. That is not just a med=
ia gateway.

--
I=F1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net<mailto:ibc@aliax.net>>

El 26/04/2013 15:16, "Tim Panton" <tim@phonefromhere.com<mailto:tim@phonefr=
omhere.com>> escribi=F3:

On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:


Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for vendors but bad=
 for all the rest.

I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is _exact=
ly_ the same
(conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP packets fro=
m the stream, do some
stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic settings =
back up to the (s)rtp
layer.

T.


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body>
<span style=3D"color:black; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;=
 font-size:11pt">
<div><br>
Hi,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that=
 require intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP offe=
rs.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
Sent from <b><i>Windows</i></b> using <b style=3D"color:blue">TouchDown</b>=
 (www.nitrodesk.com)</div>
</span>
<div></div>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo [ibc@aliax.net]<br>
<b>To:</b> Tim Panton [tim@phonefromhere.com]<br>
<b>CC:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org [rtcweb@ietf.org]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWe=
b</span>
<div>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The problem is when EKT is also used and the gateway must se=
nd SIP reINVITE by itself as the proposed &quot;solution diagram&quot; show=
s. That is not just a media gateway.<br>
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=F1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 26/04/2013 15:16, &quot;Tim Panton&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt; escr=
ibi=F3:<br type=3D"attribution">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div>
<div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 12:37, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Such a solution requires a very expensive gateway. Good for =
vendors but bad for all the rest.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't understand why the DTLS gateway would be so expensive. It is _=
exactly_ the same&nbsp;</div>
<div>(conceptually) as the ICE processing - you filter off a few UDP packet=
s from the stream, do some</div>
<div>stuff, send replies then once you are happy you punt some dynamic sett=
ings back up to the (s)rtp&nbsp;</div>
<div>layer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>T.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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I don't understand it either.

Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote:


I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in DataChannel.

/Salvatore

On 4/26/13 2:35 PM=2C I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
> SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer. Why do we
> need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?
>
> --
> I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
> <ibc@aliax.net <mailto:ibc@aliax.net>>
>
> El 25/04/2013 23:55=2C "Ejzak=2C Richard P (Richard)"
> <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com
> <mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>> escribi=C3=B3:
>
>     I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
>     This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.
>      It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP=2C don't we also need to
>     provide an SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is
>     needed to realize this?
>
>     Richard Ejzak
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
>     > Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 3:28 PM
>     > To: Bogineni=2C Kalyani=3B 'Cullen Jennings'=3B rtcweb@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     >
>     > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from
>     JavaScript
>     > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get
>     with
>     > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
>     >
>     > Matthew Kaufman
>     >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Bogineni=2C Kalyani
>     > > Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 1:21 PM
>     > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'=3B rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
>     > WebRTC.
>     > >
>     > > Kalyani Bogineni
>     > > Verizon
>     > >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
>     > > Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 11:57 AM
>     > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
>     > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka
>     SDES)
>     > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
>     > that
>     > > discussion=2C we'd like to have expressions of interest or
>     support for
>     > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
>     > proposed.
>     > > If you wish to make such an expression of support=2C please send
>     it to
>     > the chairs or the list.
>     > >
>     > > Cullen=2C Magnus=2C & Ted <The Chairs>
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > rtcweb mailing list
>     > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > rtcweb mailing list
>     > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > rtcweb mailing list
>     > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     _______________________________________________
>     rtcweb mailing list
>     rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



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<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
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adding-left: 4pt=3B border-left: #800000 2px solid=3B } --></style>
</head>
<body>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt=3B">
<div class=3D"PlainText">I don't understand it either.<br>
<br>
Salvatore Loreto &lt=3Bsalvatore.loreto@ericsson.com&gt=3B wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
<div style=3D"background-color:#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"x_moz-cite-prefix"><br>
I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in DataChannel.<br>
<br>
/Salvatore<br>
<br>
On 4/26/13 2:35 PM=2C I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr">SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer.=
 Why do we need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?<b=
r>
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt=3B</p>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">El 25/04/2013 23:55=2C &quot=3BEjzak=2C Richar=
d P (Richard)&quot=3B &lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.=
com">richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt=3B escribi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"a=
ttribution">
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
          .8ex=3B border-left:1px #ccc solid=3B padding-left:1ex">
I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.<br>
<br>
This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels. &nbsp=3BIt=
 seems that if we support SDES-SRTP=2C don't we also need to provide an SDE=
S keying mechanism for DataChannels? &nbsp=3BEkr: What is needed to realize=
 this?<br>
<br>
Richard Ejzak<br>
<br>
&gt=3B -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt=3B From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf=
.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt=3B Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
&gt=3B Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 3:28 PM<br>
&gt=3B To: Bogineni=2C Kalyani=3B 'Cullen Jennings'=3B <a href=3D"mailto:rt=
cweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt=3B Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWe=
b<br>
&gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from JavaScrip=
t<br>
&gt=3B is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get wit=
h<br>
&gt=3B SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.<br>
&gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B Matthew Kaufman<br>
&gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Behalf Of Bogineni=2C Kalyani<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 1:21 PM<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B To: 'Cullen Jennings'=3B <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">r=
tcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) an=
d RTCWeb<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method f=
or<br>
&gt=3B WebRTC.<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Kalyani Bogineni<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Verizon<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Sent: Thursday=2C April 25=2C 2013 11:57 AM<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br=
>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RT=
CWeb<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B The working groups committed some time ago to have a further<=
br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka=
 SDES)<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC. &nbsp=3BAs we =
prepare for<br>
&gt=3B that<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B discussion=2C we'd like to have expressions of interest or su=
pport for<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B that approach which indicate the general outlines of support<=
br>
&gt=3B proposed.<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B If you wish to make such an expression of support=2C please s=
end it to<br>
&gt=3B the chairs or the list.<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B Cullen=2C Magnus=2C &amp=3B Ted &lt=3BThe Chairs&gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B _______________________________________________<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B _______________________________________________<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt=3B &gt=3B <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
&gt=3B<br>
&gt=3B _______________________________________________<br>
&gt=3B rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt=3B <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt=3B <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"x_mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> <br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtc=
web@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</body>
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_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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From hammondjohnson@hushmail.com  Sat Apr 27 17:27:55 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Biggest Fake Conference in Computer Science
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We are researchers from different parts of the world and conducted a study on  
the worldâ€™s biggest bogus computer science conference WORLDCOMP 
( http://sites.google.com/site/worlddump1 ) organized by Prof. Hamid Arabnia 
from University of Georgia, USA.


We submitted a fake paper to WORLDCOMP 2011 and again (the same paper 
with a modified title) to WORLDCOMP 2012. This paper had numerous 
fundamental mistakes. Sample statements from that paper include: 

(1). Binary logic is fuzzy logic and vice versa
(2). Pascal developed fuzzy logic
(3). Object oriented languages do not exhibit any polymorphism or inheritance
(4). TCP and IP are synonyms and are part of OSI model 
(5). Distributed systems deal with only one computer
(6). Laptop is an example for a super computer
(7). Operating system is an example for computer hardware


Also, our paper did not express any conceptual meaning.  However, it 
was accepted both the times without any modifications (and without 
any reviews) and we were invited to submit the final paper and a 
payment of $500+ fee to present the paper. We decided to use the 
fee for better purposes than making Prof. Hamid Arabnia (Chairman 
of WORLDCOMP) rich. After that, we received few reminders from 
WORLDCOMP to pay the fee but we never responded. 


We MUST say that you should look at the above website if you have any thoughts 
to submit a paper to WORLDCOMP.  DBLP and other indexing agencies have stopped 
indexing WORLDCOMPâ€™s proceedings since 2011 due to its fakeness. See 
http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/icai/index.html for of one of the 
conferences of WORLDCOMP and notice that there is no listing after 2010. See Section 2 of
http://sites.google.com/site/dumpconf for comments from well-known researchers 
about WORLDCOMP. 


The status of your WORLDCOMP papers can be changed from scientific
to other (i.e., junk or non-technical) at any time. Better not to have a paper than 
having it in WORLDCOMP and spoil the resume and peace of mind forever!


Our study revealed that WORLDCOMP is a money making business, 
using University of Georgia mask, for Prof. Hamid Arabnia. He is throwing 
out a small chunk of that money (around 20 dollars per paper published 
in WORLDCOMPâ€™s proceedings) to his puppet (Mr. Ashu Solo or A.M.G. Solo) 
who publicizes WORLDCOMP and also defends it at various forums, using 
fake/anonymous names. The puppet uses fake names and defames other conferences
to divert traffic to WORLDCOMP. He also makes anonymous phone calls and tries to 
threaten the critiques of WORLDCOMP (See Item 7 of Section 5 of above website). 
That is, the puppet does all his best to get a maximum number of papers published 
at WORLDCOMP to get more money into his (and Prof. Hamid Arabniaâ€™s) pockets. 


Monte Carlo Resort (the venue of WORLDCOMP for more than 10 years, until 2012) has 
refused to provide the venue for WORLDCOMPâ€™13 because of the fears of their image 
being tarnished due to WORLDCOMPâ€™s fraudulent activities. That is why WORLDCOMPâ€™13 
is taking place at a different resort. WORLDCOMP will not be held after 2013. 


The draft paper submission deadline is over but still there are no committee 
members, no reviewers, and there is no conference Chairman. The only contact 
details available on WORLDCOMPâ€™s website is just an email address! 

Let us make a direct request to Prof. Hamid arabnia: publish all reviews for 
all the papers (after blocking identifiable details) since 2000 conference. Reveal 
the names and affiliations of all the reviewers (for each year) and how many 
papers each reviewer had reviewed on average. We also request him to look at 
the Open Challenge (Section 6) at https://sites.google.com/site/moneycomp1 


Sorry for posting to multiple lists. Spreading the word is the only way to stop 
this bogus conference. Please forward this message to other mailing lists and people. 


We are shocked with Prof. Hamid Arabnia and his puppetâ€™s activities 
http://worldcomp-fake-bogus.blogspot.com   Search Google using the 
keyword worldcomp fake for additional links.


From tim@phonefromhere.com  Sun Apr 28 05:07:55 2013
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From: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
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On 27 Apr 2013, at 15:17, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that =
require intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP =
offers.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer

If you stick to that rule, you'd want rid of ICE, SRTP, BUNDLE and all =
the other things an intermediary may have to add=20
to a plain legacy device's offer in order for it to be acceptable to a =
browser.=20
=20
Or in other words: Why is the DTLS re-write especially irksome . ?

T.





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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 27 Apr 2013, at 15:17, Christer Holmberg wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<div>
<span style="color:black; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">
<div><br>
Hi,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that require intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP offers.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Christer</div>
</span></div></blockquote><br></div><div>If you stick to that rule, you'd want rid of ICE, SRTP, BUNDLE and all the other things an intermediary may have to add&nbsp;</div><div>to a plain legacy device's offer in order for&nbsp;it to be acceptable to a browser.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Or in other words: Why is the DTLS re-write especially irksome . ?</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br></body></html>
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The problem is not DTLS (which can be handled by a pure media gateway) but
DTLS+EKT which means that the server should generate a reINVITE for legacy
interop (so the gateway would become a complex media+signaling B2BUA).

--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>
El 28/04/2013 14:07, "Tim Panton" <tim@phonefromhere.com> escribi=C3=B3:

>
> On 27 Apr 2013, at 15:17, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that
> require intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP
> offers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
> If you stick to that rule, you'd want rid of ICE, SRTP, BUNDLE and all th=
e
> other things an intermediary may have to add
> to a plain legacy device's offer in order for it to be acceptable to a
> browser.
>
> Or in other words: Why is the DTLS re-write especially irksome . ?
>
> T.
>
>
>
>
>

--20cf302ef9d874008e04db6ab650
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<p dir=3D"ltr">The problem is not DTLS (which can be handled by a pure medi=
a gateway) but DTLS+EKT which means that the server should generate a reINV=
ITE for legacy interop (so the gateway would become a complex media+signali=
ng B2BUA).<br>
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--<br>
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 28/04/2013 14:07, &quot;Tim Panton&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com">tim@phonefromhere.com</a>&gt; escr=
ibi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On 27 Apr 2013, at 15:17,=
 Christer Holmberg wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">



<div>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-seri=
f">
<div><br>
Hi,</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>As I&#39;ve mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions =
that require intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP =
offers.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Christer</div>
</span></div></blockquote><br></div><div>If you stick to that rule, you&#39=
;d want rid of ICE, SRTP, BUNDLE and all the other things an intermediary m=
ay have to add=C2=A0</div><div>to a plain legacy device&#39;s offer in orde=
r for=C2=A0it to be acceptable to a browser.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div><div>Or in other words: Why is the DTLS re-write especiall=
y irksome . ?</div><div><br></div><div>T.</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><br></div></blockquote></div>

--20cf302ef9d874008e04db6ab650--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Hi,

I prefer having SDES as a possible keying method for WebRTC, mainly for eas=
ier interop with non-WebRTC systems. I see a lot of people working on that =
type of use cases, i.e. a "browser client access" to an existing communicat=
ion service.=20

Markus=20

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 ext Cullen Jennings
Sent: 25 April, 2013 18:57
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb


The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion on =
whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a =
keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to =
have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate th=
e general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expres=
sion of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.

Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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I have been reading the discussion on this topic and I prefer
supporting SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.

Not having SDES will have non trivial impact on interop. With
EKT, there is a signalling complexity of sending re-INVITEs, which
make the gateway complex. Without EKT, you need per-packet
crypto  for media exchange, which is CPU intensive.

The fingerprint verification and all other additional DTLS-SRTP
advantages can still be leveraged when both side support DTLS-SRTP.
And then if a gateway really do not want to use SDES, it can support
DTLS/SDES gateway anyway.

thanks,
Binod.

On Thursday 25 April 2013 09:27 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> The working groups committed some time ago to have a further discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES) would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for that discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or support for that approach which indicate the general outlines of support proposed.  If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send it to the chairs or the list.
>
> Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Apr 29 01:29:35 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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--------------060001020908070803000309
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Would it be possible to get real data on 1) and 2) here, so that we can 
stop talking about "slow" and instead talk about "N milliseconds"?


On 04/26/2013 08:42 PM, Tim Panton wrote:
>
> On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:
>>
>> The arguments why SDES is required in some cases instead of DTLS are:
>>
>> 1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS
>
> This is a serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics - I think 
> we will find that in real usage
> sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go when the 
> user clicks connect.

Can someone create a call setup test that tells us how long it takes to 
set up DTLS?
I'd like to see this statement translated into milliseconds - just 
having the number of milliseconds with current code on a loopback 
interface should give us a lower bound of the issue; we can then make 
things more complex by inserting a non-zero RTT into the mix (should be 
easy if we can coerce our setup to be TURN-server-only).

>
>>
>> 2. High computational load on each call setup. This can be 
>> significant with high number of short calls being setup. This would 
>> be especially significant for any sort of server interfacing WebRTC 
>> or WebRTC to SIP gateway.
>
> I would dispute this - remember exactly the same users have almost 
> certainly logged into an https:// portal - indeed only a small
> percentage of them will start a DTLS session for during any given web 
> session. The web seems to still be working.

Can someone translate this statement in to CPU-milliseconds per call setup?


--------------060001020908070803000309
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Would it be possible to get real data
      on 1) and 2) here, so that we can stop talking about "slow" and
      instead talk about "N milliseconds"?<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 04/26/2013 08:42 PM, Tim Panton wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:829F9A35-5F23-4A0F-9831-80478F70965E@phonefromhere.com"
      type="cite"><br>
      <div>
        <div>On 26 Apr 2013, at 18:59, Roman Shpount wrote:</div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br>
              </font>
            </div>
            <div>The arguments why SDES is required in some cases
              instead of DTLS are:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>1. Additional call setup delay caused by DTLS</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>This is a serious problem - made worse by the O/A semantics
          - I think we will find that in real usage</div>
        <div>sites will pre-warm a DTLS connection so it is ready to go
          when the user clicks connect.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Can someone create a call setup test that tells us how long it takes
    to set up DTLS?<br>
    I'd like to see this statement translated into milliseconds - just
    having the number of milliseconds with current code on a loopback
    interface should give us a lower bound of the issue; we can then
    make things more complex by inserting a non-zero RTT into the mix
    (should be easy if we can coerce our setup to be TURN-server-only).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:829F9A35-5F23-4A0F-9831-80478F70965E@phonefromhere.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>2. High computational load on each call setup. This can
              be significant with high number of short calls being
              setup. This would be especially significant for any sort
              of server interfacing WebRTC or WebRTC to SIP gateway.</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I would dispute this - remember exactly the same users have
          almost certainly logged into an <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://">https://</a> portal - indeed only
          a small&nbsp;</div>
        <div>percentage of them will start a DTLS session for during any
          given web session. The web seems to still be working.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Can someone translate this statement in to CPU-milliseconds per call
    setup?<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060001020908070803000309--

From tim@phonefromhere.com  Mon Apr 29 03:30:07 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 29 Apr 2013, at 06:20, Binod wrote:

> I have been reading the discussion on this topic and I prefer
> supporting SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.
>=20
> Not having SDES will have non trivial impact on interop. With
> EKT, there is a signalling complexity of sending re-INVITEs, which
> make the gateway complex. Without EKT, you need per-packet
> crypto  for media exchange, which is CPU intensive.

I've seen this asserted more than once, but I'd love to see a _current_ =
example where=20
you really have an existing network of SRTP/ICE/BUNDLE/RTCP-MUX capable
legacy endpoints that you want to connect to webRTC without a =
media-level SBC or=20
call recording.=20

My fear is that people are just basing anti-DTLS opinions on the =
perceived difficulty of=20
building such a network in the future.=20

I'm ok with legacy interop as a secondary goal of this WG , but =
putative-future-legacy interop
is going too far IMHO, especially since it further complicates the =
already tricky problem of
defining interoperable SDP.

If it is a choice between adding complexity in a legacy gateway or every =
browser
I'd rather add it in the gateway.

T.


From emil@sip-communicator.org  Mon Apr 29 04:38:24 2013
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On 29.04.13, 12:30, Tim Panton wrote:
> 
> On 29 Apr 2013, at 06:20, Binod wrote:
> 
>> I have been reading the discussion on this topic and I prefer
>> supporting SDES as a keying method for WebRTC.
>>
>> Not having SDES will have non trivial impact on interop. With
>> EKT, there is a signalling complexity of sending re-INVITEs, which
>> make the gateway complex. Without EKT, you need per-packet
>> crypto  for media exchange, which is CPU intensive.
> 
> I've seen this asserted more than once, but I'd love to see a _current_ example where 
> you really have an existing network of SRTP/ICE/BUNDLE/RTCP-MUX capable
> legacy endpoints

Well, in all fairness it would only have to be SRTP/ICE, bundle and
rtcp-mux being optional, wouldn't it?

The above is already a more common combination.

Besides, ICE is easily handled by a light-weight gateway that would only
add a relayed candidate and that doesn't need to understand any sort of
encryption.

Emil

-- 
https://jitsi.org

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2013/4/29 Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>:
> I've seen this asserted more than once, but I'd love to see a _current_ e=
xample where
> you really have an existing network of SRTP/ICE/BUNDLE/RTCP-MUX capable
> legacy endpoints that you want to connect to webRTC without a media-level=
 SBC or
> call recording.
>
> My fear is that people are just basing anti-DTLS opinions on the perceive=
d difficulty of
> building such a network in the future.
>
> I'm ok with legacy interop as a secondary goal of this WG , but putative-=
future-legacy interop
> is going too far IMHO, especially since it further complicates the alread=
y tricky problem of
> defining interoperable SDP.
>
> If it is a choice between adding complexity in a legacy gateway or every =
browser
> I'd rather add it in the gateway.


Hi Tim, let's please separate DTLS and DTLS+EKT:


- DTLS-SRTP:  I agree with you. It seems that people consider it a
barrier for legacy interop (while it seems not so hard as implementing
ICE, bundle, rtcp-mix....). Anyhow a media gateway would do the job,
exactly as when using SDES-SRTP.

- DTLS-EKT-SRTP:  This requires a gateway sending like "re-INVITE" for
common operations as multimedia session transfer, which involves the
gateway becoming both a media gateway and a complex signaling B2BUA
(and we hate that, right?).



So please let's separate DTLS and DTLS+EKT since they are really
different options.


Best regards.


--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Mon Apr 29 05:17:28 2013
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
Thread-Index: AQHOQc2dBvHgQupeBUKbTywOt/T6cpjnAcgAgABdtoCAAOBNgIAAG7QAgAAAtICAAcQHzoABTKUAgAG2G88=
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:17:25 +0000
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References: <3FA2E46D-C98E-4FC0-9F1D-AD595A861CE1@iii.ca> <74300615-2293-4DCE-82A7-475F1A5A8256@gmail.com> <91B4F744-2201-4361-A8D8-7D36F47B865C@cisco.com> <CALiegfnqW26gEMYNpjJyzu=Nd6z9wCjvZbuY1N2tYvbfQiHyPA@mail.gmail.com> <95219856-8365-4A7E-BD0B-4EECE8868498@phonefromhere.com>, <CALiegfkPtAhEq3yJqZ73sUYfkV1etKt53DE8C0jjYDu0HV1LYw@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C363631@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>, <5A349C85-43C5-4DBE-BBD3-A42D59F8D297@phonefromhere.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb_ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Hi,

An intermediary doesn't have to do BUNDLE, and the intremediary can act as =
ICE lite, and things will still work fine with the rtcweb client.

Regards,

Christer

________________________________________
From: Tim Panton [tim@phonefromhere.com]
Sent: Sunday, 28 April 2013 3:07 PM
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo; rtcweb_ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

On 27 Apr 2013, at 15:17, Christer Holmberg wrote:


Hi,

As I've mentioned before, we should really try to avoid solutions that requ=
ire intermediaries to send reINVITEs - or, more general, send SDP offers.

Regards,

Christer

If you stick to that rule, you'd want rid of ICE, SRTP, BUNDLE and all the =
other things an intermediary may have to add
to a plain legacy device's offer in order for it to be acceptable to a brow=
ser.

Or in other words: Why is the DTLS re-write especially irksome . ?

T.





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--_000_03FBA798AC24E3498B74F47FD082A92F3BB9C0F6US70UWXCHMBA05z_--

From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com  Mon Apr 29 07:00:24 2013
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:00:20 +0200
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First off: thanks to everyone that responded to the last call ([1]), 
there is a lot of valuable and helpful feedback provided in those 
responses!.

This mail is the first in a series trying to process and conclude the 
responses and the discussion that followed as a result of the WG last 
call of the use-cases and requirements document.

The topic in this mail is what Bernard brought up in [2] in the context 
of what the document is going to be used for, namely if referencing 
RFC2119 is appropriate. I interpret the discussion ([2] - [8] - and 
please correct me if I missed any related mail) to lead to the 
conclusion that we should not reference RFC2119.

My plan moving forward is to remove the reference to RFC 2119, and in 
addition to replace the uppercase MUST’s in the requirements with 
lowercase must’s.

As for the discussion of what the document will be used for, I will 
return to that in another mail.

Stefan

[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06181.html
[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06186.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06191.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06197.html
[6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06218.html
[7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06225.html
[8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06292.html

From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com  Mon Apr 29 07:01:12 2013
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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1].

The topic in this mail is Emergency Services. This was discussed in [2] 
- [16] (i hope I found all the relevant mails, please correct me if I 
missed any), and my conclusion is that we should not add specific 
use-cases or requirements for Emergency Services.

Stefan


[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06160.html

[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06226.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06227.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06229.html
[6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06231.html
[7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06232.html
[8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06239.html
[9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06230.html
[10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06237.html
[11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06242.html
[12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06243.html
[13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06244.html
[14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06246.html
[15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06267.html
[16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06268.html

From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com  Mon Apr 29 07:02:15 2013
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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1].

The topic in this mail is Real-time text. This was discussed in [2] - 
[8] (i hope I found all the relevant mails, please correct me if I 
missed any).

My reading of the discussion is that although there was some interest in 
the use-case it was shown that it can be implemented on top of the 
existing WebRTC environment and thus does not necessary drive any new 
requirements. The counter argument was the need for common
interoperability for real-time text rather than silos, especially in the 
context of emergency services. However as there no consensus on any 
special requirements regarding emergency services it doesn't appear that 
real-time text support requires that either.

This can be summarized to that there was no consensus for additional 
requirements and the basic functionality can clearly be implemented 
using JS and suitable data transport,, and there is no need to add a 
specific use-case for real-time text.

Another way to view this is that the real-time text use-case is a 
"telephony terminal" use-case with the codec being something like T.140, 
which would narrow the discussion to a codec discussion.

Anyway, with the current input I don’t think there is support to add a 
new use-case on “Real-time text”.

Stefan


[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06160.html
[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06161.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06202.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06212.html
[6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06213.html
[7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06224.html
[8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06228.html

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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1].

The topic in this mail is the feedback that for some use-cases and 
requirements no solution has been defined yet. This was brought up in 
[2], with responses in [3] and [4].

My thinking here is that the bulk of this document was developed a long 
time ago when this effort started out. The use-cases, and derived 
requirements, reflect what was considered important at that time.

We basically have two options here: either we publish that document, 
including use-cases/requirements that we have not developed solutions to 
yet, early (knowing we may not meet all use-cases/requirements), or we 
go for a later publication where we update the document to reflect what 
we have actually designed.

My preference would be to go for the early publication, and to use this 
document later in the process to see what requirements we do meet, and 
what requirements we don’t meet. (This is basically my proposal for use 
of this document, referring again to Bernard’s mail on 2119 language [5]).

Stefan

[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06180.html
[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06187.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06200.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06181.html

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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1].

There is a use-case (4.3.3) detailing the use of multiple resolutions of 
the data from one single source, with three options on how to meet that 
mentioned (scalable codec, simulcast and transcoding).

There has been a request ([2]) to clarify which method(s) that should be 
mandatory, but no conclusion yet.

To recap, the use case is about a multiparty video (and audio of course) 
communication session using a central node. At the screen of each 
endpoint/user, one video is displayed on a large surface, with other 
videos are shown as (live) thumbnails.

Which video to show at the large display surface is depending on speech 
activity; the video from the endpoint with currently talking user(s) is 
shown on the large surface - and this will usually change frequently 
during the session. This selection is handled by the central node which 
has access to all video and audio streams.

I think this is a quite common model, used by many services.
The current draft list three ways to support this use-case (use scalable 
video codecs, transcode in the central node, or use simulcast), but 
there are no requirements that back this up. We should pick at least one 
solution that must be supported, and then derive the corresponding 
requirements.

I am a proponent for simulcast as solution for this use-case.

Stefan

[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06157.html

From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com  Mon Apr 29 07:07:05 2013
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From: =?windows-1252?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1].

This is a discussion starting from A25 “ It must be possible for the 
application to refrain from exposing the IP address”.

Discussed a lot ([2]-[24]). I think there are several aspects here that 
are discussed, and we need to separate them to enable a more fruitful 
discussion. The browser being configured to not reveal addresses applies 
to at least the following cases:

1) Private domain with NAT where the internal structure should be hidden 
can configure their browsers to not reveal that inner structure by only 
providing relay or NAT external candidates, none from the private space.

2) An user wants to avoid having their actual location revealed to any 
other user of the same service.

3) The user wants to be prevent revealing their point of attachment to 
the network even to the web service.

This results in different functional requirements

1) Requires browser support but also configuration to determine which 
candidates are ok and which are not. It may be fine with server 
reflexive candidates and not only relay candidates

2) A browser could help, but is not required for this. The browser may 
have clearer understanding from where the different candidates were 
gotten and thus understand if they reflect a privacy issue or not.

3) Needs additional anonymity service, like TOR and something that 
prevents any actual interface addresses to be revealed to the web-app.


I think 3) is out of scope (that is how I interpret the discussion), but 
it is not clear to me if we want to meet 1) or 2) or both with this 
requirement. I would like input on this topic.

Stefan


[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06198.html
[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06219.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06220.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06221.html
[6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06222.html
[7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06223.html
[8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06233.html
[9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06234.html
[10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06235.html
[11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06236.html
[12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06238.html
[13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06240.html
[14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06241.html
[15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06245.html
[16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06247.html
[17] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06248.html
[18] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06253.html
[19] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06256.html
[20] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06259.html
[21] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06260.html
[22] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06261.html
[23] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06262.html
[24] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06180.html


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From: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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After remaining neutral during most of this discussion about the need for O=
PEN, I've finally come to the conclusion that Matthew is right.  The only t=
hing the OPEN provides is the label, which is just an opaque string with no=
 meaning to the browser or any intermediaries.  It only has application sig=
nificance.  If this is the case, why not just use stream id?  What can you =
possibly do with label that you can't do with pre-assigned stream ids (this=
 is a serious question to Randell since it is fundamental to whether we nee=
d OPEN)?  Since label only has meaning when both browsers run the same appl=
ication, what does it matter if you agree on a set of opaque strings to cor=
respond to various functions or just agree on a set of stream ids for these=
 functions?  It doesn't change the complexity of the code and it doesn't ev=
en change the readability of the code if you just enumerate the reserved st=
ream ids and "label" them in the code. =20

You can even reserve stream ids in odd/even pairs so that either end can in=
itiate them.  You can reserve blocks of stream ids if you want multiple ins=
tances of the same type of DC.  I don't see any significant limitation here=
.

Getting rid of OPEN eliminates any issues around their handling in the unor=
dered case.

Getting rid of OPEN does not preclude use of new subprotocols as needed and=
 does not preclude use of any other signaling to negotiate use of DataChann=
els between heterogeneous applications.  OPEN does not help in this case an=
yway.


> On 4/25/2013 12:36 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/26/2013 9:53 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
> > On 4/25/2013 2:42 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> >> On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
> >>> So with my co-chair hat on here...
> >>>
> >>> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and
> >>> have come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
> >>>
> >>> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think
> we
> >>> need OPEN
> >>
> >> The Open message has some important and useful properties:
> >>
> >> 1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing
> >> network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a
> >> large portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it
> >> really easy for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream
> >> them want with little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs
> >> they're already used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label
> >> field will avoid the JS programmer having to build their own
> >> mini-protocol to identify their channels (and this is especially
> >> painful for them if it's an unreliable channel).
> >
> > Easier how? The initiating side needs to create their object without
> > the benefit of the contents of an open message. If a JS developer
> > isn't smart enough to set up the channel parameters they want at the
> > initiating end, then there's nothing we can do for them. There's then
> > several ways forward after that, including "the other side does the
> > same thing to create their end" (my preference) and "the parameters
> > are transported using the existing SDP O/A mechanism to the far end"
> > (generally how the WG solves this kind of problem).
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the one useful thing in the OPEN message is the
> > label (as I pointed out in my very first inquiry about why anyone
> > thought it was needed), and yet the label is allowed to be null, so
> in
> > that case how can it be helpful?
>=20
> It's helpful if you need it (if you're opening a number of channels,
> such as one per participant in a conference).  Protocol is also helpful
> (note it's in the dictionary and is also optional); both for cross-
> application channels and for within an app to indicate what handling
> logic the channel should feed.
>=20
> // pseudo-codey:
> function called_from_ondatachanne(event) {
>    channel =3D event.channel;
>    if (channel.protocol =3D=3D "file transfer") { channel.onmessage =3D
> handle_incoming_file; }
>    else if (channel.protocol =3D=3D "chat") {chat =3D new
> chat_instance(channel.label); channel.onmessage =3D chat.incoming; } }
>=20
> >
> >>
> >> 2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange
> data,
> >> by having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and
> >> there was strong agreement on it's being needed for that at
> >> Atlanta.)  With external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for
> >> different apps to interoperate, since they'd need to agree on
> >> negotiation protocols as well, which are likely to be highly
> >> divergent between apps.
> >
> > If we went with "negotiated via the SDP O/A mechanism" then we could
> > go to our favorite SDP-defining WG and have a negotiation protocol
> > that is standardized, so not divergent at all between apps.
>=20
> We also don't have one that's divergent by using Open (and we leave the
> option of externally negotiating or pre-defining channels). And SDP is
> at least one signaling-RTT to complete, plus a bunch of logic to handle
> matching everything up (what if channels disappear in the offer or
> answer, or in an offer or answer they change properties? What if the
> signaling channel is slow or unavailable any more (server rebooted,
> server has network issues, etc)?
>=20
> I'm not saying there aren't answers/solutions to all these.  But those
> answers and solutions would need to be speced out or at least
> understood, and the code to handle all of them is likely to be similar
> in scope (though quite different in detail).  And the less done in SDP,
> the better IMHO; I have no wish to increase our reliance on SDP.
>=20
> >>
> >> 3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes
> >> the issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data
> >> that arrives unexpectedly) simpler.
> >
> > I disagree. It increases the number of possible states... there's
> > cases where the OPEN message arrives but the application doesn't want
> > to be receiving that data, and the cases where the OPEN message
> > doesn't arrive but the application does want the data that is already
> > arriving. Both of those states don't exist if there's no OPEN
> message.
>=20
> My point was you need to decide what to do with that data regardless of
> if the channel gets created with a delayed OPEN or with a delayed
> external negotiation.  And with OPEN, those cases don't even arise for
> ordered channels.
>=20
> >
> >> With Open, only degenerate cases can cause more than a relatively
> >> small amount of data to be buffered.
> >
> > Sure, but those degenerate cases occur many times per day on the real
> > Internet.
>=20
> I doubt that.  The degenerate cases for Open require that all the open
> packets get lost, while a sizable amount of non-open packets get
> through
> - and after a time, SCTP will fail the entire association if reliable
> data isn't getting through.  Plus, as I indicated, we can also have
> limits on time and/or amount of data buffered.
>=20
> Also: nothing *requires* that an application send data immediately on
> onopen.  An application can institute it's own handshake trivially:
> function my_ondatachannel(event) {
> event.channel.send(ok_to_start_sending); ... }
>=20
> >
> >> With external notification, the external negotiation channel can
> fail
> >> (or be very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the
> >> negotiated values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering
> >> requirements - or you punt the problem to the application by
> >> delivering the data, but the application is facing the same
> conundrum
> >> of buffer it or throw it away.
> >>
> >>> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with
> >>> unexpected data before the OPEN
> >>
> >>
> >> The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external
> >> negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).
> >>
> >> *tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that
> >> would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with
> >> Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below. I also would be
> >> ok with B, but I realize others may not be.
> >>
> >> Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of
> >> dynamic channels must use one of these:
> >>
> >> A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready
> >> to receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or
> >>
> >> B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages
> >> are delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or
> >>
> >> C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with
> >> data being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are
> exceeded, or
> >>
> >> D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I
> >> don't know what with it.
> >>
> >> For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading
> to
> >> hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open
> >> or external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to
> open.
> >>
> >> Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios
> >
> > So if that's true, then why do we need it?
>=20
> This was a discussion of "what to do with data that arrives
> unexpectedly
> (i.e. before Open, or before the application installed the result of an
> external negotiation); this was the original point of the thread before
> you decided to question the selection of Open as a message.
>=20
> The caveat at the top was "external negotiation of dynamic channels
> must
> do one of these" regardless of whether Open is supported.  The options
> for use with Open are the same, but the amount of data that can be
> buffered is smaller (since with external negotiation there are no
> limits
> on the amount that could attempt to be queued -- the same applies SDP
> if
> you allow the sender to send data before the negotiation is complete;
> SDP is effectively a form of external negotiation).
>=20
> >
> >> -- and in fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it
> >> reduces the problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered
> >> channels (in ordered channels Open will always be first).
> >>
> >> Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It
> >> means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a
> >> new channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to
> >> start sending data on that channel.
> >
> > Of course this is different from the TCP model, where the buffering
> > happens at the *sender* until the handshake is complete.
>=20
> Ok, but this isn't TCP.  And handshakes (and the resultant delay before
> onopen fired) were eliminated in order to respond to the requests of
> multiple people, giving us a 0-RTT declarative protocol where you can
> send immediately, which will help apps that need to exchange data
> quickly at the start of a connection.
>=20
> > The problem here is that we have an existing mechanism inside of SCTP
> > and then we're adding another layer on top of that which is neither
> > inside SCTP (where it probably belongs) or under the application
> > developer's control (where I'd like to see it, if the data transport
> > protocol can't have it), and this layer conflicts with what both of
> > those might be doing.
>=20
> If you're referring to Open, you can totally ignore Open and not use it
> in your datachannels, and use all external negotiation or pre-defined
> channels.  If you want, you can just pre-define N open channels that
> the
> other side can then use to send data to you, and nothing will ever be
> buffered, and you can handle it all yourself.
>=20
> >
> >> Note that with external negotiation (possibly on a non p2p path,
> like
> >> via signaling), the receiver might not know what to install for a
> >> short while, especially if there's a routing issue or server issue
> >> (not a problem that happens with Open).
> >
> > Which is fine if the sender doesn't start sending (like TCP). Or if
> > the transport protocol itself handles the delivery of the channel
> > metadata. (Which is what SCTP, or whatever transport we choose for
> > RTCWEB, should do) then you just handle the label and whatever other
> > metadata the receiver would like to know at that layer.
>=20
> I.e. data streams from RTMFP, I take it? ;-)
>=20
> >
> >>
> >> Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this
> >> problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems
> >> reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small
> >> buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that
> >> apps using external negotiation can just send largish data
> >> immediately - and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely
> >> occurrence even in most external negotiation cases.  If people want
> >> to bikeshed on the buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)
> >>
> >> Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a
> trivial
> >> amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving
> >> side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external
> >> negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Another great argument for having this negotiation happen within the
> > transport itself.
>=20
> If you want to argue for replacing SCTP as the base layer - we made
> that
> decision a good long while ago.  And there's a good, maintained,
> BSD-licensed implementation - and the authors of that are working with
> us here in designing a DataChannel protocol to ride on top of it.  If
> you want to argue that the layer on top of SCTP should be handshaked
> once again (as it was until people objected) that's up to you to make
> the case for.
>=20
> IMO:
> I'd like to avoid continuing to circle through the range of all
> possible
> protocols one at a time, repeating every few months.  I'll assert we
> can
> bikeshed on this until we all retire, and we'll never have something
> that makes everyone entirely happy (unless most people get tired and
> stop caring).  All solutions have tradeoffs; none is perfect for all
> use-cases and users.  We arrived at a proposal that had general
> agreement in the room to move forward with per the consensus call, and
> I'm preparing a WG draft in response to that.  Some may like it more
> and
> some less, but there was agreement that people could work with it.
>=20
> --
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:12:01 +0200
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
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This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
requirements document [1]. This is the last mail in a series of mails 
related to that call that I plan to send.

A lot of more detailed comments have been posted, and I plan to take 
them into account when updating:

* W3C requirements: These are part of the document, but it will be 
clarified why, and I will move them to an appendix ([2]-[4])
* Clarifications proposed for F3, F5 and F23: [5] and [6]
* Clarification of F3: [7] - [10]
* Remove the word “Skype” [11]
* Clarifying a lot of requirements discussed in [12] - [16]
* Other requirements are discussed, and at least partially clarified, in 
[17] - [25].

Stefan

[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html

[2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06192.html
[3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06193.html
[4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06196.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06137.html
[6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06138.html

[7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06181.html
[8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06191.html
[9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06197.html
[10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06218.html

[11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06159.html

[12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06182.html
[13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06190.html
[14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06208.html
[15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06198.html
[16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06219.html

[17] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06180.html
[18] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06187.html
[19] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06189.html
[20] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06200.html
[21] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06201.html
[22] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06206.html
[23] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06215.html
[24] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06216.html
[25] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06217.html


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Hi Cullen,

Sorry for the delay in replying; it was a long transit back from
Australia.  Some comments in-line.

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

>
> On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at>
> wrote:
> > O
> > Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I see
> the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not
> browser-legacy.
> >
> > Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn't mean it
> is true.
> >
> > I remind you that the actual title of the group is:
> >
> > "Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)".  While you may
> disagree with the charter, please remember that it's not fundamentally a
> prediction about what the eventual balance of flows will be.  It's a
> statement about where the balance of effort in the group should go.   To me
> as an individual, it implies that we should not make trade-offs that
> optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use case
> except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
> >
> > regards,
>
> Ted, I think rtcweb is about a web brewer being able to communicate to
> lots of things, not just one currently very small island. Our uses and
> discussion from well before this WG was chartered have recognized that to
> be successful, rtrcweb endpoints were going to need to be able to call
> things other than web browsers. You were one of the people that pushed hard
> on the non browser (but also not legacy) uses.
>
>
The non-browser, non-legacy case I believe we need to be particularly aware
of is the mobile application case.  While many of those are based on web
technologies, they are distributed as stand-alone apps.  That means they
can be WebRTC "protocol native" without have the same chrome as a browser.
Mostly that means we can't depend on the *browser* as distinct element just
because we're using web protocols.

That is significantly different from the legacy use case.  I also think it
is different from the "future legacy" use case that others have referred to.



> I agree with your point that the design of any new communication system
> has to deal with the tradeoff between how it work with previous system and
> how easy it is to build. However, in the case here, I tend towards trying
> to make the a new system that can take advantage of an early network effect
> by being able to talk to lots of existing things.


So, this is trade-off that I suspect we disagree on.  I recognize that
interop with existing systems gets you early traction, but it also tends to
force the new system to match the odd angles and corners of whatever
existing system you choose to align with.  Having watched what happened to
SIP with the focus on PSTN interoperability, I think that too much focus on
that legacy interoperability can lose you generality.  Once that's lost
(even in perception among the developer community), it's very difficult to
get back.

It think the system we're building now potentially has useful general
properties, so I don't want to over-optimize to a legacy use case that
limits that generality (by reducing its security or in other terms).

YMMV,

Ted

--047d7b10cd294f029b04db8140f1
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Hi Cullen,<br><br>Sorry for the delay in replying; it was a long transit ba=
ck from Australia.=A0 Some comments in-line.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Cullen Jennings <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@iii.ca" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@iii.ca</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Apr 25, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Ted Hardie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gma=
il.com">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Kaufman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:matthew@matthew.at">matthew@matthew.at</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; O<br>
&gt; Yes, some gateway scenarios might be cheaper/easier with SDES, but I s=
ee the primary use-cases for WebRTC to be browser-to-browser, not browser-l=
egacy.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Just because the charter was mistakenly written that way doesn&#39;t m=
ean it is true.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I remind you that the actual title of the group is:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (rtcweb)&quot;. =A0While=
 you may disagree with the charter, please remember that it&#39;s not funda=
mentally a prediction about what the eventual balance of flows will be. =A0=
It&#39;s a statement about where the balance of effort in the group should =
go. =A0 To me as an individual, it implies that we should not make trade-of=
fs that optimize a non-browser use case at the expense of the browser use c=
ase except in pretty extraordinary circumstances.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; regards,<br>
<br>
</div></div>Ted, I think rtcweb is about a web brewer being able to communi=
cate to lots of things, not just one currently very small island. Our uses =
and discussion from well before this WG was chartered have recognized that =
to be successful, rtrcweb endpoints were going to need to be able to call t=
hings other than web browsers. You were one of the people that pushed hard =
on the non browser (but also not legacy) uses.<br>

<br></blockquote><div><br>The non-browser, non-legacy case I believe we nee=
d to be particularly aware of is the mobile application case.=A0 While many=
 of those are based on web technologies, they are distributed as stand-alon=
e apps.=A0 That means they can be WebRTC &quot;protocol native&quot; withou=
t have the same chrome as a browser.=A0 Mostly that means we can&#39;t depe=
nd on the *browser* as distinct element just because we&#39;re using web pr=
otocols.<br>
<br>That is significantly different from the legacy use case.=A0 I also thi=
nk it is different from the &quot;future legacy&quot; use case that others =
have referred to.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

I agree with your point that the design of any new communication system has=
 to deal with the tradeoff between how it work with previous system and how=
 easy it is to build. However, in the case here, I tend towards trying to m=
ake the a new system that can take advantage of an early network effect by =
being able to talk to lots of existing things.</blockquote>
<div><br>So, this is trade-off that I suspect we disagree on.=A0 I recogniz=
e that interop with existing systems gets you early traction, but it also t=
ends to force the new system to match the odd angles and corners of whateve=
r existing system you choose to align with.=A0 Having watched what happened=
 to SIP with the focus on PSTN interoperability, I think that too much focu=
s on that legacy interoperability can lose you generality.=A0 Once that&#39=
;s lost (even in perception among the developer community), it&#39;s very d=
ifficult to get back.<br>
<br>It think the system we&#39;re building now potentially has useful gener=
al properties, so I don&#39;t want to over-optimize to a legacy use case th=
at limits that generality (by reducing its security or in other terms).<br>
<br>YMMV,<br><br>Ted<br></div></div>

--047d7b10cd294f029b04db8140f1--

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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 09:40:52 -0700
To: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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I would also note that the maximum number of streams can be indicated in the=
 association negotiation.  So if there is concern about unexpected data chan=
nels and associated data, that mechanism can be used. If the application kno=
ws how many streams it will need, might it not be wise to indicate this in a=
ssociation setup?

On Apr 29, 2013, at 7:12, "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcate=
l-lucent.com> wrote:

> After remaining neutral during most of this discussion about the need for O=
PEN, I've finally come to the conclusion that Matthew is right.  The only th=
ing the OPEN provides is the label, which is just an opaque string with no m=
eaning to the browser or any intermediaries.  It only has application signif=
icance.  If this is the case, why not just use stream id?  What can you poss=
ibly do with label that you can't do with pre-assigned stream ids (this is a=
 serious question to Randell since it is fundamental to whether we need OPEN=
)?  Since label only has meaning when both browsers run the same application=
, what does it matter if you agree on a set of opaque strings to correspond t=
o various functions or just agree on a set of stream ids for these functions=
?  It doesn't change the complexity of the code and it doesn't even change t=
he readability of the code if you just enumerate the reserved stream ids and=
 "label" them in the code. =20
>=20
> You can even reserve stream ids in odd/even pairs so that either end can i=
nitiate them.  You can reserve blocks of stream ids if you want multiple ins=
tances of the same type of DC.  I don't see any significant limitation here.=

>=20
> Getting rid of OPEN eliminates any issues around their handling in the uno=
rdered case.
>=20
> Getting rid of OPEN does not preclude use of new subprotocols as needed an=
d does not preclude use of any other signaling to negotiate use of DataChann=
els between heterogeneous applications.  OPEN does not help in this case any=
way.
>=20
>=20
>> On 4/25/2013 12:36 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>> On 4/26/2013 9:53 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote:
>>> On 4/25/2013 2:42 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
>>>> On 4/25/2013 5:10 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>>>>> So with my co-chair hat on here...
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It seems we have been around the need for OPEN several times and
>>>>> have come to consensus on it in the past. Can someone please:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1) summarize the arguments that in the past that lead us to think
>> we
>>>>> need OPEN
>>>>=20
>>>> The Open message has some important and useful properties:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1) It's easier to work with.  JS isn't an ideal language for writing
>>>> network protocols, especially for non-network-programmers (i.e. a
>>>> large portion of the expected developer community).  Open makes it
>>>> really easy for a developer to get the type of bidirectional stream
>>>> them want with little fuss, and in a manner that maps easily to APIs
>>>> they're already used to (e.g. WebSockets).  In many cases the label
>>>> field will avoid the JS programmer having to build their own
>>>> mini-protocol to identify their channels (and this is especially
>>>> painful for them if it's an unreliable channel).
>>>=20
>>> Easier how? The initiating side needs to create their object without
>>> the benefit of the contents of an open message. If a JS developer
>>> isn't smart enough to set up the channel parameters they want at the
>>> initiating end, then there's nothing we can do for them. There's then
>>> several ways forward after that, including "the other side does the
>>> same thing to create their end" (my preference) and "the parameters
>>> are transported using the existing SDP O/A mechanism to the far end"
>>> (generally how the WG solves this kind of problem).
>>>=20
>>> As far as I can tell, the one useful thing in the OPEN message is the
>>> label (as I pointed out in my very first inquiry about why anyone
>>> thought it was needed), and yet the label is allowed to be null, so
>> in
>>> that case how can it be helpful?
>>=20
>> It's helpful if you need it (if you're opening a number of channels,
>> such as one per participant in a conference).  Protocol is also helpful
>> (note it's in the dictionary and is also optional); both for cross-
>> application channels and for within an app to indicate what handling
>> logic the channel should feed.
>>=20
>> // pseudo-codey:
>> function called_from_ondatachanne(event) {
>>   channel =3D event.channel;
>>   if (channel.protocol =3D=3D "file transfer") { channel.onmessage =3D
>> handle_incoming_file; }
>>   else if (channel.protocol =3D=3D "chat") {chat =3D new
>> chat_instance(channel.label); channel.onmessage =3D chat.incoming; } }
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) It makes it possible to have different applications exchange
>> data,
>>>> by having an IANA-registered protocol name, like WebSockets (and
>>>> there was strong agreement on it's being needed for that at
>>>> Atlanta.)  With external-negotiation-only, it would be very hard for
>>>> different apps to interoperate, since they'd need to agree on
>>>> negotiation protocols as well, which are likely to be highly
>>>> divergent between apps.
>>>=20
>>> If we went with "negotiated via the SDP O/A mechanism" then we could
>>> go to our favorite SDP-defining WG and have a negotiation protocol
>>> that is standardized, so not divergent at all between apps.
>>=20
>> We also don't have one that's divergent by using Open (and we leave the
>> option of externally negotiating or pre-defining channels). And SDP is
>> at least one signaling-RTT to complete, plus a bunch of logic to handle
>> matching everything up (what if channels disappear in the offer or
>> answer, or in an offer or answer they change properties? What if the
>> signaling channel is slow or unavailable any more (server rebooted,
>> server has network issues, etc)?
>>=20
>> I'm not saying there aren't answers/solutions to all these.  But those
>> answers and solutions would need to be speced out or at least
>> understood, and the code to handle all of them is likely to be similar
>> in scope (though quite different in detail).  And the less done in SDP,
>> the better IMHO; I have no wish to increase our reliance on SDP.
>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 3) The Open message, being in-channel, reliable and in-order, makes
>>>> the issue that was the genesis of this thread (what to do with data
>>>> that arrives unexpectedly) simpler.
>>>=20
>>> I disagree. It increases the number of possible states... there's
>>> cases where the OPEN message arrives but the application doesn't want
>>> to be receiving that data, and the cases where the OPEN message
>>> doesn't arrive but the application does want the data that is already
>>> arriving. Both of those states don't exist if there's no OPEN
>> message.
>>=20
>> My point was you need to decide what to do with that data regardless of
>> if the channel gets created with a delayed OPEN or with a delayed
>> external negotiation.  And with OPEN, those cases don't even arise for
>> ordered channels.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> With Open, only degenerate cases can cause more than a relatively
>>>> small amount of data to be buffered.
>>>=20
>>> Sure, but those degenerate cases occur many times per day on the real
>>> Internet.
>>=20
>> I doubt that.  The degenerate cases for Open require that all the open
>> packets get lost, while a sizable amount of non-open packets get
>> through
>> - and after a time, SCTP will fail the entire association if reliable
>> data isn't getting through.  Plus, as I indicated, we can also have
>> limits on time and/or amount of data buffered.
>>=20
>> Also: nothing *requires* that an application send data immediately on
>> onopen.  An application can institute it's own handshake trivially:
>> function my_ondatachannel(event) {
>> event.channel.send(ok_to_start_sending); ... }
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> With external notification, the external negotiation channel can
>> fail
>>>> (or be very slow), or the app can have a bug and fail to install the
>>>> negotiated values, leading to larger or unbounded buffering
>>>> requirements - or you punt the problem to the application by
>>>> delivering the data, but the application is facing the same
>> conundrum
>>>> of buffer it or throw it away.
>>>>=20
>>>>> 2) sketch out the range of possible solutions to deal with
>>>>> unexpected data before the OPEN
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The issue exists regardless of whether Open is used or external
>>>> negotiation (and in fact is much simpler for Open).
>>>>=20
>>>> *tl;dr: *I'm ok with any setting of maximum sizes and/or times that
>>>> would not adversely impact temporary buffering for normal cases with
>>>> Open of unordered channels.  This is option C below. I also would be
>>>> ok with B, but I realize others may not be.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regardless of supporting Open or not, any external negotiation of
>>>> dynamic channels must use one of these:
>>>>=20
>>>> A) a 2-or-3-way handshake so the sender knows the receiver is ready
>>>> to receive the data on the specified channel before sending it, or
>>>>=20
>>>> B) unbounded buffering of data if the external negotiation messages
>>>> are delayed (again, what we're discussing in this thread), or
>>>>=20
>>>> C) bounded buffering of data (bounded by time, size or both), with
>>>> data being dropped and the channel closed if the limits are
>> exceeded, or
>>>>=20
>>>> D) deliver unexpected data to the application, which will do .... I
>>>> don't know what with it.
>>>>=20
>>>> For (D), the application will likely drop it on the floor (leading
>> to
>>>> hard-to-test-for problems if the channel is later configured by Open
>>>> or external negotiation), or buffer it waiting for the channel to
>> open.
>>>>=20
>>>> Supporting Open or not has little bearing on these scenarios
>>>=20
>>> So if that's true, then why do we need it?
>>=20
>> This was a discussion of "what to do with data that arrives
>> unexpectedly
>> (i.e. before Open, or before the application installed the result of an
>> external negotiation); this was the original point of the thread before
>> you decided to question the selection of Open as a message.
>>=20
>> The caveat at the top was "external negotiation of dynamic channels
>> must
>> do one of these" regardless of whether Open is supported.  The options
>> for use with Open are the same, but the amount of data that can be
>> buffered is smaller (since with external negotiation there are no
>> limits
>> on the amount that could attempt to be queued -- the same applies SDP
>> if
>> you allow the sender to send data before the negotiation is complete;
>> SDP is effectively a form of external negotiation).
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> -- and in fact, since Open is in-channel, reliable, and ordered, it
>>>> reduces the problem set (when Open is used) to only unordered
>>>> channels (in ordered channels Open will always be first).
>>>>=20
>>>> Buffering unexpected data on channels (options B or C) is useful. It
>>>> means that in the external negotiation case, one side asking for a
>>>> new channel to open by some private means doesn't need to wait to
>>>> start sending data on that channel.
>>>=20
>>> Of course this is different from the TCP model, where the buffering
>>> happens at the *sender* until the handshake is complete.
>>=20
>> Ok, but this isn't TCP.  And handshakes (and the resultant delay before
>> onopen fired) were eliminated in order to respond to the requests of
>> multiple people, giving us a 0-RTT declarative protocol where you can
>> send immediately, which will help apps that need to exchange data
>> quickly at the start of a connection.
>>=20
>>> The problem here is that we have an existing mechanism inside of SCTP
>>> and then we're adding another layer on top of that which is neither
>>> inside SCTP (where it probably belongs) or under the application
>>> developer's control (where I'd like to see it, if the data transport
>>> protocol can't have it), and this layer conflicts with what both of
>>> those might be doing.
>>=20
>> If you're referring to Open, you can totally ignore Open and not use it
>> in your datachannels, and use all external negotiation or pre-defined
>> channels.  If you want, you can just pre-define N open channels that
>> the
>> other side can then use to send data to you, and nothing will ever be
>> buffered, and you can handle it all yourself.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Note that with external negotiation (possibly on a non p2p path,
>> like
>>>> via signaling), the receiver might not know what to install for a
>>>> short while, especially if there's a routing issue or server issue
>>>> (not a problem that happens with Open).
>>>=20
>>> Which is fine if the sender doesn't start sending (like TCP). Or if
>>> the transport protocol itself handles the delivery of the channel
>>> metadata. (Which is what SCTP, or whatever transport we choose for
>>> RTCWEB, should do) then you just handle the label and whatever other
>>> metadata the receiver would like to know at that layer.
>>=20
>> I.e. data streams from RTMFP, I take it? ;-)
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Since normal Open cases have very little chance of triggering this
>>>> problem (triggering buffering), some arbitrary size limit seems
>>>> reasonable (option C).  Often in network protocols there are small
>>>> buffers (4, 16, 64KB).  I prefer a larger value of say 256KB so that
>>>> apps using external negotiation can just send largish data
>>>> immediately - and note: actually buffering data is still an unlikely
>>>> occurrence even in most external negotiation cases.  If people want
>>>> to bikeshed on the buffersize or timeout, that's fine. ;-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Also, external negotiation is the only case where more than a
>> trivial
>>>> amount of data can "pile up" in the buffer waiting for the receiving
>>>> side to finish it's side of the negotiation (i.e. if your external
>>>> negotiation channel fails or the app has a brain fart).
>>>=20
>>> Another great argument for having this negotiation happen within the
>>> transport itself.
>>=20
>> If you want to argue for replacing SCTP as the base layer - we made
>> that
>> decision a good long while ago.  And there's a good, maintained,
>> BSD-licensed implementation - and the authors of that are working with
>> us here in designing a DataChannel protocol to ride on top of it.  If
>> you want to argue that the layer on top of SCTP should be handshaked
>> once again (as it was until people objected) that's up to you to make
>> the case for.
>>=20
>> IMO:
>> I'd like to avoid continuing to circle through the range of all
>> possible
>> protocols one at a time, repeating every few months.  I'll assert we
>> can
>> bikeshed on this until we all retire, and we'll never have something
>> that makes everyone entirely happy (unless most people get tired and
>> stop caring).  All solutions have tradeoffs; none is perfect for all
>> use-cases and users.  We arrived at a proposal that had general
>> agreement in the room to move forward with per the consensus call, and
>> I'm preparing a WG draft in response to that.  Some may like it more
>> and
>> some less, but there was agreement that people could work with it.
>>=20
>> --
>> Randell Jesup
>> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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Here's how I see it.

1. Is where I, as a user of the browser (or, more likely, as
administrator for the user of the browser) decide that I don't want
host candidates exposed to *anyone*.  This means that I would like to
be able to request that the browser do the following:
a) use the TURN server that I configure
b) don't provide base addresses or provide bogus base addresses

This is entirely a negotiation that occurs between browser users and
browsers.  API requirements are zero.

That doesn't mean that we're off the hook entirely.  We can do a),
perhaps, with some DHCP and DNS messing around, but it's not possible
to convey b) through those channels.  I'm sure that some people will
argue that we don't want to try to solve this problem, but given the
complete mess that has been made of HTTP proxy discovery (wpad,
proxy.pac, ...) and the way that users use browsers, I think that this
is something that needs to be done.  (I've just thought of some actual
feedback on Andy's draft...)

2. is a no-brainer.  If I want to use a service that I trust to
protect my anonymity, then that's great.  Here I agree with Bernard,
this is common enough, important enough, and easy enough to solve.
Adding a means to request anonymity is a good thing.

3. is a security considerations problem



On 29 April 2013 09:14, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For Case 2 there are real customers out there (e.g. Women's shelters, For=
ensic psychologists dealing with criminals, etc.) so I would favor includin=
g it.
>
> For case 1, I think we need a bit more detail on the adversary model. Is =
this the same as Case 2 (e.g. Hiding from another user, not the web server =
or STUN server?) I can imagine scenarios where granular candidate control w=
ould be useful. Not sure I would put all those cases in the privacy bucket,=
 though.
>
> On Apr 29, 2013, at 7:12, "Stefan H=C3=A5kansson LK" <stefan.lk.hakansson=
@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and re=
quirements document [1].
>>
>> This is a discussion starting from A25 =E2=80=9C It must be possible for=
 the application to refrain from exposing the IP address=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> Discussed a lot ([2]-[24]). I think there are several aspects here that =
are discussed, and we need to separate them to enable a more fruitful discu=
ssion. The browser being configured to not reveal addresses applies to at l=
east the following cases:
>>
>> 1) Private domain with NAT where the internal structure should be hidden=
 can configure their browsers to not reveal that inner structure by only pr=
oviding relay or NAT external candidates, none from the private space.
>>
>> 2) An user wants to avoid having their actual location revealed to any o=
ther user of the same service.
>>
>> 3) The user wants to be prevent revealing their point of attachment to t=
he network even to the web service.
>>
>> This results in different functional requirements
>>
>> 1) Requires browser support but also configuration to determine which ca=
ndidates are ok and which are not. It may be fine with server reflexive can=
didates and not only relay candidates
>>
>> 2) A browser could help, but is not required for this. The browser may h=
ave clearer understanding from where the different candidates were gotten a=
nd thus understand if they reflect a privacy issue or not.
>>
>> 3) Needs additional anonymity service, like TOR and something that preve=
nts any actual interface addresses to be revealed to the web-app.
>>
>>
>> I think 3) is out of scope (that is how I interpret the discussion), but=
 it is not clear to me if we want to meet 1) or 2) or both with this requir=
ement. I would like input on this topic.
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html
>>
>> [2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06198.html
>> [3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06219.html
>> [4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06220.html
>> [5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06221.html
>> [6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06222.html
>> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06223.html
>> [8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06233.html
>> [9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06234.html
>> [10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06235.html
>> [11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06236.html
>> [12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06238.html
>> [13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06240.html
>> [14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06241.html
>> [15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06245.html
>> [16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06247.html
>> [17] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06248.html
>> [18] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06253.html
>> [19] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06256.html
>> [20] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06259.html
>> [21] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06260.html
>> [22] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06261.html
>> [23] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06262.html
>> [24] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06180.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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On 4/29/2013 9:40 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> I would also note that the maximum number of streams can be indicated in the association negotiation.  So if there is concern about unexpected data channels and associated data, that mechanism can be used. If the application knows how many streams it will need, might it not be wise to indicate this in association setup?

The number of streams in the SDP is the initial number of streams (with 
a suggested default of 16).  That's entirely an optimization to avoid 
the application needing to immediately need to renegotiate a larger 
number, or to have a large number of never-used channels if the default 
was set way too high.

If streams are needed past the number currently allocated, an increase 
will be requested and the createDataChannel queued.  (Note: this applies 
to pre-negotiated channels using streams past the currently allocated 
number as well).

-- 
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org


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Cc: pthatcher@gmail.com, rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> 
> >     Each SSRC is demultiplexed based on an RTCP SDES item that gives
> >     the mapping between the SSRC and the m= line via which it is
> >     presented to the application layer (that is, the constituent m=
> >     line sequence number).
> 
> It's been proposed.  I don't know exactly why it wasn't considered
> worth pursuing.
> 
> Maybe you can ask Peter Thatcher to share his document on demux.  It's
> a reasonable taxonomy of the available options. Better than what I'm
> able to write up in a short time.

What I can find is draft-pthatcher-mmusic-many-sources-00, but it
doesn't seem to describe demultiplexing.

That draft does contain a small error:

   o  With BUNDLE, use of RFC5576 a=ssrc attributes is required in order
      for the recipient to be able to properly demultiplex incoming RTP.
      Payload type isn't sufficient as a demux point, since RTCP packets
      don't contain RTP payload types.  Therefore, this approach
      requires both sides to understand RFC5576, just like the single-m-
      section approach.

a=ssrc attributes are not strictly needed, because RTCP packets
contain SSRC identifiers, and RTP packets contain both SSRC and PT.
So caching the SSRC/PT correspondence seen in the RTP packets allows
the RTCP packets to be assigned to the proper m= lines.

This matters because a=ssrc attributes are problematic; we want to
add, remove, and adjust video flows without additional offer/answer
cycles, which precludes adding or changing a=ssrc attributes in the
SDP to handle the new flow.  (This is requirement 3 in
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2013/02/05/rtcweb/slides/slides-interim-2013-rtcweb-1-10.pdf,
"Add/remove one way video flows with minimal chance of glare on
non-legacy apps" and DES F11 in draft-worley-sdp-bundle.)

Dale

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:22:57 -0700
To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "pthatcher@gmail.com" <pthatcher@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #15: Section 4.8: SSRC signaling
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On Apr 29, 2013, at 2:59 PM, "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:

>> From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>>=20
>>>    Each SSRC is demultiplexed based on an RTCP SDES item that gives
>>>    the mapping between the SSRC and the m=3D line via which it is
>>>    presented to the application layer (that is, the constituent m=3D
>>>    line sequence number).
>=20
> a=3Dssrc attributes are not strictly needed, because RTCP packets
> contain SSRC identifiers, and RTP packets contain both SSRC and PT.
> So caching the SSRC/PT correspondence seen in the RTP packets allows
> the RTCP packets to be assigned to the proper m=3D lines.
>=20
> This matters because a=3Dssrc attributes are problematic; we want to
> add, remove, and adjust video flows without additional offer/answer
> cycles, which precludes adding or changing a=3Dssrc attributes in the
> SDP to handle the new flow. =20

[BA] The PT/SSRC mapping only works if each PT maps to only one m=3D line (a=
nd you don't run out of PTs). Also, without a parameter in an SDES report yo=
u might get a receiver report from an SSRC without corresponding RTP packets=
 to allow mapping the SSRC to an m=3D line.=

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:29:36 -0700
To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #13: Transport of DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
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Right. What I was trying to say is that an application has control over how m=
any data channels it can need to handle.=20

On Apr 29, 2013, at 2:57 PM, "Randell Jesup" <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:=


> On 4/29/2013 9:40 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>> I would also note that the maximum number of streams can be indicated in t=
he association negotiation.  So if there is concern about unexpected data ch=
annels and associated data, that mechanism can be used. If the application k=
nows how many streams it will need, might it not be wise to indicate this in=
 association setup?
>=20
> The number of streams in the SDP is the initial number of streams (with a s=
uggested default of 16).  That's entirely an optimization to avoid the appli=
cation needing to immediately need to renegotiate a larger number, or to hav=
e a large number of never-used channels if the default was set way too high.=

>=20
> If streams are needed past the number currently allocated, an increase wil=
l be requested and the createDataChannel queued.  (Note: this applies to pre=
-negotiated channels using streams past the currently allocated number as we=
ll).
>=20
> --=20
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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On 29 April 2013 14:56, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote:
> The number of streams in the SDP is the initial number of streams (with a
> suggested default of 16).  That's entirely an optimization to avoid the
> application needing to immediately need to renegotiate a larger number, or
> to have a large number of never-used channels if the default was set way too
> high.
>
> If streams are needed past the number currently allocated, an increase will
> be requested and the createDataChannel queued.  (Note: this applies to
> pre-negotiated channels using streams past the currently allocated number as
> well).

Actually, I'm not sure where this has been discussed, but there is an
assumption of SDP use that doesn't fit my model for SDP.

That is, when I use SDP, I describe what I can do, i.e., my limits.
That establishes an operating envelope within which I can change
behavior.  When I negotiate 16 streams, I had assumed that this would
be a limit and that I might negotiate fewer than that initially and be
open to attempts to open more.  That is, up to but not exceeding 16.
If this is something that doesn't make sense to negotiate in SDP, then
let's not do that.

As another issue, have we ever discussed the SCTP profile that we are
expected to implement?  Are we expected to have and use every SCTP
feature ever defined or just a specific subset?  Where is the right
place to capture that?  Does this have ramifications for SDP, or shall
we let the SCTP extension mechanisms handle the feature negotiation?

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On 4/29/2013 7:11 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) wrote:
> After remaining neutral during most of this discussion about the need f=
or OPEN, I've finally come to the conclusion that Matthew is right.  The =
only thing the OPEN provides is the label, which is just an opaque string=
 with no meaning to the browser or any intermediaries.  It only has appli=
cation significance.  If this is the case, why not just use stream id?  W=
hat can you possibly do with label that you can't do with pre-assigned st=
ream ids (this is a serious question to Randell since it is fundamental t=
o whether we need OPEN)?  Since label only has meaning when both browsers=
 run the same application, what does it matter if you agree on a set of o=
paque strings to correspond to various functions or just agree on a set o=
f stream ids for these functions?  It doesn't change the complexity of th=
e code and it doesn't even change the readability of the code if you just=
 enumerate the reserved stream ids and "label" them in the code.

ok, multi-point response:

Please review the proposed JS API & dictionary posted here and the W3=20
list a while ago (4 weeks?)

1) Label isn't the only data transmitted in the Open message. Protocol=20
(which is particularly important to inter-operating apps, though can=20
still be useful for homogenous apps), and also having the channel=20
parameters be symmetric.  Channels don't have to be symmetric, but if=20
they aren't then the receiver of the initial data would need to know by=20
some external method what the reverse channel parameters should be, and=20
then do operations to set it to the appropriate transfer mode.

2) labels can specify some easy tags for the channel.  For example, in a =

"Hangout", if the server opens up a private chat channel on behalf of=20
another participant, it might do "pc.createDataChannel("Tom", {=20
protocol: "application/funkychat"});".    The server might also open one =

with a label "Sarah", etc.  I also envisioned (in this mailing list) an=20
FTP-like file transfer setup where the label is the filename being=20
transferred.  (Think dragging a directory of files onto your chat=20
session to transfer to the other person.)

That said, you can always push anything signaled in Open into an initial =

message in an ordered reliable channel.  When it's NOT ordered and=20
reliable, then it gets more complex for the application to get initial=20
setup done for simple uses (retries to handle packet loss,=20
in-application acks, out-of-order delivery, etc, just to set up the=20
channel, or run a separate reliable negotiation channel (more likely),=20
which would need to be at least 1RTT to avoid races with trying to use=20
the unreliable channel before it's set up, etc.  Yes, applications can=20
deal with all this, but some applications will want a simple JS API and=20
simple setup.  And it will be tough to get right in a 0-RTT use for=20
non-reliable channels.

3) I proposed something similar to your proposal a year ago, and=20
discussion and comments from people expecting to use this convinced me=20
to adapt the protocol proposal to include label (in particular comments=20
from Justin Uberti, but there were others).   Perhaps some of them can=20
chime in, as I can only do so well at describing how they intend or hope =

to use label.  The other major piece, protocol, was added at the strong=20
request from the people in the room at IETF Atlanta.

Matthew's proposal is effectively little different than Martin's=20
proposal from IETF Orlando (or Matthew's assumed proposal, as his=20
comments aren't exactly an alternative proposal and some of the comments =

imply a different model with an RTMFP-like initial packet (i.e.=20
Open....).  Per the minutes and earlier comments here, the agreement was =

to adopt the Open draft, and not proceed with either of the two=20
alternatives given.  I'll leave how to resolve this issue to the chairs, =

and until told otherwise will continue to work on turning the personal=20
draft into a WG document.  (And re-iterate my comments from before - I=20
think we have a solution here that everyone can work with, even if it's=20
not everyone's first choice.)



--=20
Randell Jesup
randell-ietf@jesup.org



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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On Apr 29, 2013, at 4:49 AM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> wrote:

> 2013/4/29 Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>:
>> I've seen this asserted more than once, but I'd love to see a =
_current_ example where
>> you really have an existing network of SRTP/ICE/BUNDLE/RTCP-MUX =
capable
>> legacy endpoints that you want to connect to webRTC without a =
media-level SBC or
>> call recording.
>>=20
>> My fear is that people are just basing anti-DTLS opinions on the =
perceived difficulty of
>> building such a network in the future.
>>=20
>> I'm ok with legacy interop as a secondary goal of this WG , but =
putative-future-legacy interop
>> is going too far IMHO, especially since it further complicates the =
already tricky problem of
>> defining interoperable SDP.
>>=20
>> If it is a choice between adding complexity in a legacy gateway or =
every browser
>> I'd rather add it in the gateway.
>=20
>=20
> Hi Tim, let's please separate DTLS and DTLS+EKT:
>=20
>=20
> - DTLS-SRTP:  I agree with you. It seems that people consider it a
> barrier for legacy interop (while it seems not so hard as implementing
> ICE, bundle, rtcp-mix....). Anyhow a media gateway would do the job,
> exactly as when using SDES-SRTP.
>=20
> - DTLS-EKT-SRTP:  This requires a gateway sending like "re-INVITE" for
> common operations as multimedia session transfer, which involves the
> gateway becoming both a media gateway and a complex signaling B2BUA
> (and we hate that, right?).

That re-INVITE is necessary because Security Descriptions changed the =
SRTP key, and Security Descriptions needs to send that re-INVITE.  It is =
not the fault of DTLS-SRTP-EKT, because it doesn't send a re-INVITE when =
the SRTP key changes (EKT handles key changes). =20

If the objection is the re-INVITE when SRTP keys change, the solution is =
eliminating Security Descriptions.

-d


>=20
>=20
>=20
> So please let's separate DTLS and DTLS+EKT since they are really
> different options.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards.
>=20
>=20
> --
> I=F1aki Baz Castillo
> <ibc@aliax.net>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Hi Richard

I think that we have two aspects here that we have to consider and see 
what the working group opinion is about them:
the first is related to the use cases you are describing below in your 
mail..
the second is related to what means or should mean "to have an SDES 
option for DataChannel"

here I am considering only the latter trying to understand if

as you know the DataChannels run directly on top of the DTLS stack, so 
it is the DTLS sessios as such
that provides security, confidentiality etc etc..
SRTP relies on an external key management protocol to set up the key 
necessary to perform the job,
and SDES is just a possible exchange method.

so when you propose "to have an SDES option for DataChannel"
are you proposing that when/if we will eventually use SDES we have to 
assure that the key exchanged
is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs Datachannel?
or is something different ? if this is the case can you explain it?

br

/Sal



On 4/29/13 4:40 PM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) wrote:
>
> I responded to this question earlier so didnâ€™t want to repeat myself, 
> but see now that it was either missed or otherwise not accepted.
>
> Quoting my earlier email from 4/25:
>
> â€œLegacy devices support more than just audio and video media.  We will 
> need to occasionally transport protocols like T.140, MSRP, BFCP, 
> and/or RTSP in some cases, and the primary options are to transport 
> them over DataChannels or WebSockets.  A network server will be needed 
> to do transport level interworking, of course.  It would be useful in 
> these cases to have an SDES option for DataChannels.  Not essential, 
> but useful.  End-to-end security is not even an issue in this case due 
> to the need for transport level interworking.â€
>
> After further consideration, I donâ€™t currently see a use case for 
> RTSP, but I still do for the others.  If we have a legacy endpoint 
> doing T.140 and audio, for example, it would be useful to be able to 
> multiplex the audio together with T.140/DC at the browser, and to put 
> a box in the network to adapt them as necessary for the legacy 
> endpoint (decode, demux, DC-to-RTP i/w for T.140, possibly 
> transcoding).  SDES for DC just makes this easier to do.
>
> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Bernard Aboba
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:53 AM
> *To:* Salvatore Loreto
> *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>
> I don't understand it either.
>
> Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in DataChannel.
>
> /Salvatore
>
> On 4/26/13 2:35 PM, IÃ±aki Baz Castillo wrote:
>
>     SDES is obviously requested for legacy interop at RTP layer. Why
>     do we need SDES in DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?
>
>     --
>     IÃ±aki Baz Castillo
>     <ibc@aliax.net <mailto:ibc@aliax.net>>
>
>     El 25/04/2013 23:55, "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)"
>     <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com
>     <mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>> escribiÃ³:
>
>     I also agree that we should support SDES in addition to DTLS-SRTP.
>
>     This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for DataChannels.
>      It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP, don't we also need to
>     provide an SDES keying mechanism for DataChannels?  Ekr: What is
>     needed to realize this?
>
>     Richard Ejzak
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
>     > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM
>     > To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     >
>     > I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and keys from
>     JavaScript
>     > is critical for certain applications. SDES is the best we'll get
>     with
>     > SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be unacceptably limiting.
>     >
>     > Matthew Kaufman
>     >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani
>     > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
>     > > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and
>     RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > > We would like to support the use of SDES as a keying method for
>     > WebRTC.
>     > >
>     > > Kalyani Bogineni
>     > > Verizon
>     > >
>     > > -----Original Message-----
>     > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>     > > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
>     > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM
>     > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>     > > Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > The working groups committed some time ago to have a further
>     > > discussion on whether SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka
>     SDES)
>     > > would be usable as a keying method for WebRTC.  As we prepare for
>     > that
>     > > discussion, we'd like to have expressions of interest or
>     support for
>     > > that approach which indicate the general outlines of support
>     > proposed.
>     > > If you wish to make such an expression of support, please send
>     it to
>     > the chairs or the list.
>     > >
>     > > Cullen, Magnus, & Ted <The Chairs>
>     > >
>     > >
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Richard<br>
      <br>
      I think that we have two aspects here that we have to consider and
      see what the working group opinion is about them:<br>
      the first is related to the use cases you are describing below in
      your mail..<br>
      the second is related to what means or should mean "to have an
      SDES option for DataChannel"<br>
      <br>
      here I am considering only the latter trying to understand if <br>
      <br>
      as you know the DataChannels run directly on top of the DTLS
      stack, so it is the DTLS sessios as such<br>
      that provides security, confidentiality etc etc..<br>
      SRTP relies on an external key management protocol to set up the
      key necessary to perform the job,<br>
      and SDES is just a possible exchange method.<br>
      <br>
      so when you propose "to have an SDES option for DataChannel"<br>
      are you proposing that when/if we will eventually use SDES we have
      to assure that the key exchanged<br>
      is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs
      Datachannel?<br>
      or is something different ? if this is the case can you explain
      it?<br>
      <br>
      br<br>
      <br>
      /Sal<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 4/29/13 4:40 PM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:03FBA798AC24E3498B74F47FD082A92F3BB9C0F6@US70UWXCHMBA05.zam.alcatel-lucent.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            responded to this question earlier so didnâ€™t want to repeat
            myself, but see now that it was either missed or otherwise
            not accepted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Quoting
            my earlier email from 4/25:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">â€œLegacy devices support more than just
          audio and video media.Â  We will need to occasionally transport
          protocols like T.140, MSRP, BFCP, and/or RTSP in some cases,
          and the primary options are to transport them over
          DataChannels or WebSockets.Â  A network server will be needed
          to do transport level interworking, of course.Â  It would be
          useful in these cases to have an SDES option for
          DataChannels.Â  Not essential, but useful.Â  End-to-end security
          is not even an issue in this case due to the need for
          transport level interworking.â€<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">After
            further consideration, I donâ€™t currently see a use case for
            RTSP, but I still do for the others.Â  If we have a legacy
            endpoint doing T.140 and audio, for example, it would be
            useful to be able to multiplex the audio together with
            T.140/DC at the browser, and to put a box in the network to
            adapt them as necessary for the legacy endpoint (decode,
            demux, DC-to-RTP i/w for T.140, possibly transcoding).Â  SDES
            for DC just makes this easier to do.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bernard Aboba<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:53 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Salvatore Loreto<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions
                  (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt">I don't understand it either.<br>
                <br>
                Salvatore Loreto &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com">salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
                I am also puzzled about the request for SDES also in
                DataChannel.<br>
                <br>
                /Salvatore<br>
                <br>
                On 4/26/13 2:35 PM, IÃ±aki Baz Castillo wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p style="background:white">SDES is obviously requested
                for legacy interop at RTP layer. Why do we need SDES in
                DataChannel if this is a complete new technology?<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p style="background:white">--<br>
                IÃ±aki Baz Castillo<br>
                &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:ibc@aliax.net">ibc@aliax.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">El
                  25/04/2013 23:55, "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" &lt;<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com">richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;
                  escribiÃ³:<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I also
                  agree that we should support SDES in addition to
                  DTLS-SRTP.<br>
                  <br>
                  This raises a further question about SCTP/DTLS for
                  DataChannels. Â It seems that if we support SDES-SRTP,
                  don't we also need to provide an SDES keying mechanism
                  for DataChannels? Â Ekr: What is needed to realize
                  this?<br>
                  <br>
                  Richard Ejzak<br>
                  <br>
                  &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                  &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  On<br>
                  &gt; Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)<br>
                  &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:28 PM<br>
                  &gt; To: Bogineni, Kalyani; 'Cullen Jennings'; <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
                  &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions
                  (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<br>
                  &gt;<br>
                  &gt; I agree. The ability to set the cipher suite and
                  keys from JavaScript<br>
                  &gt; is critical for certain applications. SDES is the
                  best we'll get with<br>
                  &gt; SDP as the API. DTLS-SRTP-only would be
                  unacceptably limiting.<br>
                  &gt;<br>
                  &gt; Matthew Kaufman<br>
                  &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                  &gt; &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  On<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Bogineni, Kalyani<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
                  &gt; &gt; To: 'Cullen Jennings'; <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
                  &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security
                  Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; We would like to support the use of SDES as
                  a keying method for<br>
                  &gt; WebRTC.<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Kalyani Bogineni<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Verizon<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                  &gt; &gt; From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  On<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Behalf Of Cullen Jennings<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM<br>
                  &gt; &gt; To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
                  &gt; &gt; Subject: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions
                  (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; The working groups committed some time ago
                  to have a further<br>
                  &gt; &gt; discussion on whether SDP Security
                  Descriptions (RFC 4568 aka SDES)<br>
                  &gt; &gt; would be usable as a keying method for
                  WebRTC. Â As we prepare for<br>
                  &gt; that<br>
                  &gt; &gt; discussion, we'd like to have expressions of
                  interest or support for<br>
                  &gt; &gt; that approach which indicate the general
                  outlines of support<br>
                  &gt; proposed.<br>
                  &gt; &gt; If you wish to make such an expression of
                  support, please send it to<br>
                  &gt; the chairs or the list.<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Cullen, Magnus, &amp; Ted &lt;The Chairs&gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt;</p>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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--------------020307040703080507040505--

From gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se  Tue Apr 30 02:58:37 2013
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:58:27 +0200
From: Gunnar Hellstrom <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] =?windows-1252?q?WG_last_call_comments_on_use-case_and_r?= =?windows-1252?q?equirement_document=2C_=93Emergency_Services=94?=
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I see a need to create a whole new strand of documents standardizing 
"application of RTCWEB".

It would contain items that are not directly linked to details of the 
media streams standardized in rtcweb, but are important in apparent 
applications of the technology.
It would contribute to the ambition to not create silos.

Emergency service access is mainly one such application area.

RFC 6881 says:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SP-1: If a device or application expects to be able to place a call for 
help, the service provider that supports it MUST facilitate emergency 
calling. Some jurisdictions have regulations governing this.

ED-2: Devices that create media sessions and exchange real-time audio, 
video, and/or text and that have the capability to establish sessions to 
a wide variety of addresses and communicate over private IP networks or 
the Internet SHOULD support emergency calls. Some jurisdictions have 
regulations governing this.
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------

These requirements will clearly apply to some rtcweb applications, and 
it will be important to both remind rtcweb implementers about them and 
to develop common approaches to how to meet the requirements.

One aspect that touches the recent discussion on SRTP usage in RTCWEB is 
that the specifications from the emergency service organisations EENA 
and NENA prefer DTLS-SRTP but accept SDES.


In summary: Emergency service requirements surely needs to be described 
in rtcweb related specifications. If it is not mentioned among the 
kernel use-cases it should be in specifications about application of rtcweb.

Gunnar


On 2013-04-29 16:01, Stefan Håkansson LK wrote:
>
>
> This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
> requirements document [1].
>
> The topic in this mail is Emergency Services. This was discussed in 
> [2] - [16] (i hope I found all the relevant mails, please correct me 
> if I missed any), and my conclusion is that we should not add specific 
> use-cases or requirements for Emergency Services.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html
>
> [2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06160.html
>
> [3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06226.html
> [4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06227.html
> [5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06229.html
> [6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06231.html
> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06232.html
> [8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06239.html
> [9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06230.html
> [10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06237.html
> [11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06242.html
> [12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06243.html
> [13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06244.html
> [14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06246.html
> [15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06267.html
> [16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06268.html
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On 2013-04-29 16:02, Stefan Håkansson LK wrote:
>
> This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and 
> requirements document [1].
>
> The topic in this mail is Real-time text. This was discussed in [2] - 
> [8] (i hope I found all the relevant mails, please correct me if I 
> missed any).
>
> My reading of the discussion is that although there was some interest 
> in the use-case it was shown that it can be implemented on top of the 
> existing WebRTC environment and thus does not necessary drive any new 
> requirements. The counter argument was the need for common
> interoperability for real-time text rather than silos, especially in 
> the context of emergency services. However as there no consensus on 
> any special requirements regarding emergency services it doesn't 
> appear that real-time text support requires that either.
>
> This can be summarized to that there was no consensus for additional 
> requirements and the basic functionality can clearly be implemented 
> using JS and suitable data transport,, and there is no need to add a 
> specific use-case for real-time text.
>
> Another way to view this is that the real-time text use-case is a 
> "telephony terminal" use-case with the codec being something like 
> T.140, which would narrow the discussion to a codec discussion.
>
> Anyway, with the current input I don’t think there is support to add a 
> new use-case on “Real-time text”.
>
> Stefan
There was interest in having real-time text included in a uniform way in 
rtcweb applications. We took a pause in discussing the topic and agreed 
that a discussion document would be needed describing characteristic and 
pros and cons of three implementation alternatives:
1. RTP implementation alongside with the video and audio media, using 
T.140 on the presentation level and RFC 4103 as RTP packetization.
     This is well defined and easiest to achieve interoperability with 
SIP and emergency services.

2. Rtcweb data channel transport of T.140.
      This requires a standard protocol identity in the data channel so 
that it can be declared and agreed to be used between users of different 
servers. It is more complex to gateway it to SIP and coordinate with the 
other real-time media in a session. The discussion lately about SRTP 
keys have made me unsure if it is really feasible to have real-time text 
using anything else than RTP, because of the need to have all three 
media coordinated in the session.

3. JS implementation in same application as rtcweb usage, but 
transported with another web related mechanism, e.g. XMPP over BOSH.
Possibly using draft XEP-0301 for the real-time text presentation and 
transmission.
A bit complex to do SIP and emergency service interop, but nice as IM 
improvement.
This would also need good work on JS libraries to make it convenient to 
use and opportunities for interop between rtcweb applications high.


It is still my intention to contribute to such document.


On 2013-01-30 I sent a proposal for how to include real-time text in the 
use-case document without indicating the exact solution. I think that 
line should be followed and that it is in line with your discussion of  
"no solution defined".

/Gunnar


>
>
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html
>
> [2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06160.html
> [3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06161.html
> [4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06202.html
> [5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06212.html
> [6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06213.html
> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06224.html
> [8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06228.html
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From ibc@aliax.net  Tue Apr 30 07:52:14 2013
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:51:43 +0200
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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2013/4/30 Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>:
>> - DTLS-EKT-SRTP:  This requires a gateway sending like "re-INVITE" for
>> common operations as multimedia session transfer, which involves the
>> gateway becoming both a media gateway and a complex signaling B2BUA
>> (and we hate that, right?).
>
> That re-INVITE is necessary because Security Descriptions changed the SRT=
P key, and Security Descriptions needs to send that re-INVITE.  It is not t=
he fault of DTLS-SRTP-EKT, because it doesn't send a re-INVITE when the SRT=
P key changes (EKT handles key changes).
>
> If the objection is the re-INVITE when SRTP keys change, the solution is =
eliminating Security Descriptions.


The "solution" cannot be a media gateway that also must behave as a
complex signaling B2BUA originating re-INVITEs by itself, since that
means that a simple signaling pure proxy scenario is unfeasible.




--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

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On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:51 AM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> wrote:

> 2013/4/30 Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>:
>>> - DTLS-EKT-SRTP:  This requires a gateway sending like "re-INVITE" =
for
>>> common operations as multimedia session transfer, which involves the
>>> gateway becoming both a media gateway and a complex signaling B2BUA
>>> (and we hate that, right?).
>>=20
>> That re-INVITE is necessary because Security Descriptions changed the =
SRTP key, and Security Descriptions needs to send that re-INVITE.  It is =
not the fault of DTLS-SRTP-EKT, because it doesn't send a re-INVITE when =
the SRTP key changes (EKT handles key changes).
>>=20
>> If the objection is the re-INVITE when SRTP keys change, the solution =
is eliminating Security Descriptions.
>=20
>=20
> The "solution" cannot be a media gateway that also must behave as a
> complex signaling B2BUA originating re-INVITEs by itself, since that
> means that a simple signaling pure proxy scenario is unfeasible.

Webrtc has already made decisions that make a pure proxy unfeasible with =
most legacy SIP networks:  ICE-Lite, RTP/RTCP multiplexing on the same =
port, and bundling. Those are trade-offs against interoperability but in =
favor of a better webrtc design.
=20
I would rather the complexity and security weakness of Security =
Descriptions be confined to the interworking device, rather than exist =
forever in webrtc.

-d


>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> I=F1aki Baz Castillo
> <ibc@aliax.net>


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> On 4/29/2013 6:34 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:
> On 4/29/2013 7:11 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) wrote:
> > After remaining neutral during most of this discussion about the need
> for OPEN, I've finally come to the conclusion that Matthew is right.
> The only thing the OPEN provides is the label, which is just an opaque
> string with no meaning to the browser or any intermediaries.  It only
> has application significance.  If this is the case, why not just use
> stream id?  What can you possibly do with label that you can't do with
> pre-assigned stream ids (this is a serious question to Randell since it
> is fundamental to whether we need OPEN)?  Since label only has meaning
> when both browsers run the same application, what does it matter if you
> agree on a set of opaque strings to correspond to various functions or
> just agree on a set of stream ids for these functions?  It doesn't
> change the complexity of the code and it doesn't even change the
> readability of the code if you just enumerate the reserved stream ids
> and "label" them in the code.
>=20
> ok, multi-point response:
>=20
> Please review the proposed JS API & dictionary posted here and the W3
> list a while ago (4 weeks?)
>=20
> 1) Label isn't the only data transmitted in the Open message. Protocol
> (which is particularly important to inter-operating apps, though can
> still be useful for homogenous apps), and also having the channel
> parameters be symmetric.  Channels don't have to be symmetric, but if
> they aren't then the receiver of the initial data would need to know by
> some external method what the reverse channel parameters should be, and
> then do operations to set it to the appropriate transfer mode.

For homogeneous apps, the choice of channel parameters can as easily be tie=
d to the stream id as the label.  =20

The SCTP protocol id field should indicate the subprotocol being carried in=
 the data channel, so I don't see the need to separately announce this.=20

For non-homogeneous apps, there is no basis to negotiate anything until som=
e standard subprotocols (beyond "raw data") are defined.  In some cases the=
 subprotocol will dictate the channel parameters to be used (or will at lea=
st severely constrain the options), so defaults could be assumed in simple =
cases.  In most more complex cases you will need a real negotiation mechani=
sm (instead of OPEN) since most protocols require negotiation of additional=
 parameters that can't be expressed or negotiated using OPEN (e.g., the t.1=
40 cps).

>=20
> 2) labels can specify some easy tags for the channel.  For example, in
> a "Hangout", if the server opens up a private chat channel on behalf of
> another participant, it might do "pc.createDataChannel("Tom", {
> protocol: "application/funkychat"});".    The server might also open
> one
> with a label "Sarah", etc.  I also envisioned (in this mailing list) an
> FTP-like file transfer setup where the label is the filename being
> transferred.  (Think dragging a directory of files onto your chat
> session to transfer to the other person.)

This might be useful for some homogeneous apps, but the repeated use of the=
 word "might" in your text implies that this is not a necessity and that th=
ere are reasonable alternatives.

My real point is just that the justification for OPEN is weak and we could =
easily do without it (assuming the proper handling of the protocol id).  Pl=
ease consider this as a friendly proposal to enhance/simplify the current D=
ataChannel proposal that should be considered if there is enough support.

>=20
> That said, you can always push anything signaled in Open into an
> initial message in an ordered reliable channel.  When it's NOT ordered
> and reliable, then it gets more complex for the application to get
> initial setup done for simple uses (retries to handle packet loss, in-
> application acks, out-of-order delivery, etc, just to set up the
> channel, or run a separate reliable negotiation channel (more likely),
> which would need to be at least 1RTT to avoid races with trying to use
> the unreliable channel before it's set up, etc.  Yes, applications can
> deal with all this, but some applications will want a simple JS API and
> simple setup.  And it will be tough to get right in a 0-RTT use for
> non-reliable channels.
>=20
> 3) I proposed something similar to your proposal a year ago, and
> discussion and comments from people expecting to use this convinced me
> to adapt the protocol proposal to include label (in particular comments
> from Justin Uberti, but there were others).   Perhaps some of them can
> chime in, as I can only do so well at describing how they intend or
> hope to use label.  The other major piece, protocol, was added at the
> strong request from the people in the room at IETF Atlanta.
>=20
> Matthew's proposal is effectively little different than Martin's
> proposal from IETF Orlando (or Matthew's assumed proposal, as his
> comments aren't exactly an alternative proposal and some of the
> comments imply a different model with an RTMFP-like initial packet
> (i.e.
> Open....).  Per the minutes and earlier comments here, the agreement
> was to adopt the Open draft, and not proceed with either of the two
> alternatives given.  I'll leave how to resolve this issue to the
> chairs, and until told otherwise will continue to work on turning the
> personal draft into a WG document.  (And re-iterate my comments from
> before - I think we have a solution here that everyone can work with,
> even if it's not everyone's first choice.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randell Jesup
> randell-ietf@jesup.org
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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From: "Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us>
To: "'Gunnar Hellstrom'" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] =?iso-8859-1?q?WG_last_call_comments_on_use-case_and_req?= =?iso-8859-1?q?uirement_document=2C_=22Emergency_Services=22?=
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And

http://www.fcc.gov/document/section-718-accessibility-requirements-intern=
et-
browsers-mobile-0



-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Gunnar Hellstrom
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:58 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WG last call comments on use-case and requirement
document, =93Emergency Services=94

I see a need to create a whole new strand of documents standardizing
"application of RTCWEB".

It would contain items that are not directly linked to details of the =
media
streams standardized in rtcweb, but are important in apparent =
applications
of the technology.
It would contribute to the ambition to not create silos.

Emergency service access is mainly one such application area.

RFC 6881 says:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SP-1: If a device or application expects to be able to place a call for
help, the service provider that supports it MUST facilitate emergency
calling. Some jurisdictions have regulations governing this.

ED-2: Devices that create media sessions and exchange real-time audio,
video, and/or text and that have the capability to establish sessions to =
a
wide variety of addresses and communicate over private IP networks or =
the
Internet SHOULD support emergency calls. Some jurisdictions have =
regulations
governing this.
  =
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

These requirements will clearly apply to some rtcweb applications, and =
it
will be important to both remind rtcweb implementers about them and to
develop common approaches to how to meet the requirements.

One aspect that touches the recent discussion on SRTP usage in RTCWEB is
that the specifications from the emergency service organisations EENA =
and
NENA prefer DTLS-SRTP but accept SDES.


In summary: Emergency service requirements surely needs to be described =
in
rtcweb related specifications. If it is not mentioned among the kernel
use-cases it should be in specifications about application of rtcweb.

Gunnar


On 2013-04-29 16:01, Stefan H=E5kansson LK wrote:
>
>
> This relates to the comments to the WG last call of the use-cases and=20
> requirements document [1].
>
> The topic in this mail is Emergency Services. This was discussed in=20
> [2] - [16] (i hope I found all the relevant mails, please correct me=20
> if I missed any), and my conclusion is that we should not add specific =

> use-cases or requirements for Emergency Services.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06136.html
>
> [2] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06160.html
>
> [3] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06226.html
> [4] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06227.html
> [5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06229.html
> [6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06231.html
> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06232.html
> [8] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06239.html
> [9] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06230.html
> [10] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06237.html
> [11] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06242.html
> [12] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06243.html
> [13] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06244.html
> [14] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06246.html
> [15] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06267.html
> [16] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg06268.html
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:09:11 +0200
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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2013/4/30 Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>:
> Webrtc has already made decisions that make a pure proxy unfeasible with =
most legacy SIP networks:  ICE-Lite, RTP/RTCP multiplexing on the same port=
, and bundling.

ICE / rtcp-mux / bundle does not require sending a reINVITE by an
intermediary signaling server *at all*, but just a media gateway.


--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

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On Apr 30, 2013, at 9:09 AM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> wrote:

> 2013/4/30 Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>:
>> Webrtc has already made decisions that make a pure proxy unfeasible =
with most legacy SIP networks:  ICE-Lite, RTP/RTCP multiplexing on the =
same port, and bundling.
>=20
> ICE / rtcp-mux / bundle does not require sending a reINVITE by an
> intermediary signaling server *at all*, but just a media gateway.

Agreed, they work differently. =20

But ICE and RTP/RTCP multiplexing require participation on the media =
path (that is, an SBC or SBC-like function), and cannot be accomplished =
with a SIP proxy.

-d


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
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2013/4/30 Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>:
> But ICE and RTP/RTCP multiplexing require participation on the media path=
 (that is, an SBC or SBC-like function), and cannot be accomplished with a =
SIP proxy.

Of course, but a SIP proxy (which cannot generate a reINVITE by
itself) is really different than a B2BUA (which breaks pure signaling
scenarios). DTLS+EKT requires a B2BUA so that's not good.


--
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Tue Apr 30 10:47:11 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WG last call comments on use-case and requirement document, "Emergency Services"
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The below reference is significant for WebRTC because it indicates that bro=
wsers are regulated under Section 716 of CVAA with respect to "Advanced Com=
munications Services".   Are there also provisions of the Report & Order re=
levant to emergency services?Richard pointed to:
 http://www.fcc.gov/document/section-718-accessibility-requirements-interne=
t-browsers-mobile-0
 		 	   		  =

--_741fb516-2033-4363-8f9c-8750a6dd3cee_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>The below reference is significa=
nt for WebRTC because it&nbsp=3Bindicates that browsers are regulated under=
 Section 716 of CVAA&nbsp=3Bwith respect to "Advanced&nbsp=3BCommunications=
 Services".&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Are there also provisions of the Report &amp=3B=
 Order relevant to emergency services?<BR><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"><=
/div><div>Richard pointed to:</div><div><br>&nbsp=3B<a href=3D"http://www.f=
cc.gov/document/section-718-accessibility-requirements-internet-browsers-mo=
bile-0">http://www.fcc.gov/document/section-718-accessibility-requirements-=
internet-browsers-mobile-0</a><br></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_741fb516-2033-4363-8f9c-8750a6dd3cee_--

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To: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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On 30 April 2013 08:14, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
<richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> We could
> mix SDES for voice/video with DTLS for DataChannels in these scenarios, but
> an all-SDES approach (for keying) would be more efficient.

I'm going to be blunt: this is crazy talk.

DTLS doesn't work that way.  What you are talking about is a whole new
protocol.  I'm sorry to say that I cannot wish you success and good
fortune if you intend to continue down that path.

Now, you could do what people do in the real world and send data as an
RTP payload.  None of this SCTP mess.  But we decided not to do that
for a number of reasons (i.e., the number of hands that were raised)
and by grim we don't go back on our decisions in this working group.

From ekr@rtfm.com  Tue Apr 30 11:53:06 2013
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On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) <
richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

>  Hi Salvatore,****
>
> =93are you proposing that when/if we will eventually use SDES we have to
> assure that the key exchanged
> is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs Datachanne=
l?=94
> is a reasonable interpretation of what I am proposing, although I would
> have described this as my =93preference=94 rather than a concrete proposa=
l.  We
> could mix SDES for voice/video with DTLS for DataChannels in these
> scenarios, but an all-SDES approach (for keying) would be more efficient.=
*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> I know that this option is not currently defined, although it does seem
> technically feasible (which is why I asked to ekr to comment).
>

I don't think this is really practical. It would require defining a new
crypto protocol
to carry the SCTP.

-Ekr

--047d7bdc0aba97331104db98822d
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On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com" target=3D"_blank=
">richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Salvatore,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=93</span>are you proposi=
ng that when/if we will eventually use SDES we have to assure that the key =
exchanged<br>



is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs Datachannel?=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=94 is a reasonable interpretation of what I am =
proposing, although I would have described this as my =93preference=94
 rather than a concrete proposal. =A0We could mix SDES for voice/video with=
 DTLS for DataChannels in these scenarios, but an all-SDES approach (for ke=
ying) would be more efficient.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I know that this option i=
s not currently defined, although it does seem technically feasible (which =
is why I asked to ekr to comment).</span></p>


</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think this is real=
ly practical. It would require defining a new crypto protocol</div><div>to =
carry the SCTP.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=A0</div></div>

--047d7bdc0aba97331104db98822d--

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From: "Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)" <richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb
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Ekr,
Thanks for your response.  I really just wanted to raise awareness of this =
issue, and to get clarification of what "SDES for WebRTC" really means.  "I=
mpractical" and "crazy talk" in this case are other ways of saying that it'=
s more work than someone wants to do, but I respect that.  Most of the bene=
fit of SDES keying for WebRTC comes from addressing audio and video media.

Richard

From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:52 PM
To: Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)
Cc: Salvatore Loreto; rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWeb

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (Richard) <richard.ejzak@=
alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
Hi Salvatore,
"are you proposing that when/if we will eventually use SDES we have to assu=
re that the key exchanged
is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs Datachannel?=
" is a reasonable interpretation of what I am proposing, although I would h=
ave described this as my "preference" rather than a concrete proposal.  We =
could mix SDES for voice/video with DTLS for DataChannels in these scenario=
s, but an all-SDES approach (for keying) would be more efficient.

I know that this option is not currently defined, although it does seem tec=
hnically feasible (which is why I asked to ekr to comment).

I don't think this is really practical. It would require defining a new cry=
pto protocol
to carry the SCTP.

-Ekr


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ekr,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks for your response.=
&nbsp; I really just wanted to raise awareness of this issue, and to get cl=
arification of what &#8220;SDES for WebRTC&#8221; really means.&nbsp; &#822=
0;Impractical&#8221;
 and &#8220;crazy talk&#8221; in this case are other ways of saying that it=
&#8217;s more work than someone wants to do, but I respect that.&nbsp; Most=
 of the benefit of SDES keying for WebRTC comes from addressing audio and v=
ideo media.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Richard<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric Res=
corla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ejzak, Richard P (Richard)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Salvatore Loreto; rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] SDP Security Descriptions (RFC 4568) and RTCWe=
b<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ejzak, Richard P (R=
ichard) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com" target=3D"_=
blank">richard.ejzak@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Salvatore,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;</span>are you proposing that wh=
en/if we will eventually use SDES we have to assure that the key
 exchanged<br>
is the same key used by the DTLS session, on top of which runs Datachannel?=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8221; is a reasonable interpretation of what I=
 am proposing, although I would have described this as my &#8220;preference=
&#8221;
 rather than a concrete proposal. &nbsp;We could mix SDES for voice/video w=
ith DTLS for DataChannels in these scenarios, but an all-SDES approach (for=
 keying) would be more efficient.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I know that this option is not currentl=
y defined, although it does seem technically feasible (which
 is why I asked to ekr to comment).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't think this is really practical. It would req=
uire defining a new crypto protocol<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to carry the SCTP.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: =?Windows-1252?Q?Network_times_=85_was_SDP_Security_Descriptions_(RFC_456?= =?Windows-1252?Q?8)_and_RTCWeb?=
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On Apr 29, 2013, at 2:29 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote=
:

> Would it be possible to get real data on 1) and 2) here, so that we can s=
top talking about "slow" and instead talk about "N milliseconds"?
>=20

I did try and round up a bunch of data for ping times from India to Singapo=
re as some people were suggesting these were 1500ms.=20

I got measurements from both home DSL and more business class from a range =
of sources in India. It seems that anywhere one could run video, you can pi=
ng any of Singapore, Tokyo, Boston, Palo Alto, and London in less than 250 =
ms one way. If someone has an actually link that is getting 1500 ms out of =
India, I'd love to get the info so I can see what I can learn (the buffer b=
loat folks want to hear about this :-)






