
From ietf@meetecho.com  Thu Aug  1 05:03:14 2013
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Dear all,

the full recording (synchronized video, audio, slides and jabber room) of the 
RTCWEB WG session at IETF 87 is available at the following URL:
http://ietf87.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Recorded_Sessions#RTCWEB

For the chair(s): please feel free to put the link to the recording in the minutes,
if you think this might be useful.

Cheers,
the Meetecho Team


This email has been automatically generated by The Meetecho Conferencing System


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From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Thu Aug  1 05:05:55 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Question about the status of various drafts
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Question about the status of various drafts
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Looking at the chairs status slides at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/s=
lides/slides-87-rtcweb-6.pdf.

It appears that draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations is still mi=
ssing from the list.

Can you please add it to the list?

Regards
Andy



> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Hutton, Andrew
> Sent: 11 July 2013 12:19
> To: Cullen Jennings; rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Question about the status of various drafts
>=20
> There are things missing from the list.
>=20
> For example the charter and the requirements indicate that we need to
> address the firewall issue so we need a draft for that.
>=20
> I hope we will adopt draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations to
> cover this and of course assuming we do then I think it is nearly done
> but others might think differently.
>=20
> I have not been through the requirements document to see if there are
> other things missing.
>=20
> Regards
> Andy
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> > Sent: 05 July 2013 01:47
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: [rtcweb] Question about the status of various drafts
> >
> >
> > As part of putting together some chair slides for Berlin, I'm trying
> to
> > get a very rough idea of where things are. I'd like to get folks
> input
> > on what percent done various drafts are where Done is a published
> RFC.
> >
> > This is nearly impossible to do at any level of accuracy but I do
> want
> > to get a vague idea. I took a very rough stab below just to have a
> > starting point to get the conversation going. I'm sure my numbers are
> > mostly wrong but I have tried to ask a few people and sort of take
> the
> > central cluster of the guess. If you think I am way out, please
> provide
> > some feedback of what you think the number actually is.
> >
> > I'm happy to get feedback on specific drafts or feedback of the form
> > they are all too low or too high. I do encourage people to
> > realistically look at the data tracker to see how long other drafts
> > have taken for each stage to get a baseline instead of just going
> with
> > their gut feel.
> >
> > Thanks, Cullen
> >
> > PS - if you are an author and look at the number next to your draft
> and
> > think it is way off, please please, say something.
> >
> >
> >
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview		80
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements	70
> > http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/getusermedia.html	70
> > draft-burnett-rtcweb-constraints-registry		80
> > http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/webrtc.html	50
> > draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri		80
> > draft-petithuguenin-behave-turn-uris		80
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security		80
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch		80
> > draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness-02 	50
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel		70
> > draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp		70
> > draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol 		50
> > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps		70
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage		40
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis		80
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs		80
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext	80
> > draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates		70
> > draft-lennox-rtcweb-rtp-media-type-mux 		80
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers		70
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-media-rtp-session 	70
> > draft-lennox-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream		70
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep		50
> > draft-ietf-mmusic-msid		70
> > draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle		25
> > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation	50
> > draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes	25
> > draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos		10 or 90
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio		50
> > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus		90
> > draft-ietf-payload-vp8-08		95
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From ietf@meetecho.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:34 2013
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Dear all,

the full recording (synchronized video, audio, slides and jabber room) of the 
RTCWEB WG session at IETF 87 is available at the following URL:
http://ietf87.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Recorded_Sessions#RTCWEB

For the chair(s): please feel free to put the link to the recording in the minutes,
if you think this might be useful.

Cheers,
the Meetecho Team


This email has been automatically generated by The Meetecho Conferencing System


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From jerome.marcon@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Aug  2 06:00:42 2013
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From: "MARCON, JEROME (JEROME)" <jerome.marcon@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>, "randell-ietf@jesup.org" <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
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Subject: [rtcweb] TR :  I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
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Hi,

Section 6.4 reads "The simple protocol specified in [I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-=
protocol] MUST be used to set up and manage the bidirectional data channels=
."



And section 4 of  'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol' reads: "Alternatively, =
both sides make externally agree to a set of parameters for a Channel, in w=
hich case no DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is required."

I guess the reference should now point to 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol'=
.

Also, shouldn't it be clarified (in either 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel'=
 or 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol') that the optionality of this protoco=
l is about the app invoking it (through in-band negotiation) or not (extern=
al negotiation), not about the browser implementing or not. Currently a rea=
der could wonder whether DATA CHANNEL OPEN is always implemented by WebRTC =
browsers.

Jerome

________________________________________
De : rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] de la part de intern=
et-drafts@ietf.org [internet-drafts@ietf.org]
Date d'envoi : lundi 15 juillet 2013 21:23
=C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Objet : [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W=
orking Group of the IETF.

        Title           : RTCWeb Data Channels
        Author(s)       : Randell Jesup
                          Salvatore Loreto
                          Michael Tuexen
        Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
        Pages           : 13
        Date            : 2013-07-15

Abstract:
   The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) working group is charged to
   provide protocol support for direct interactive rich communication
   using audio, video, and data between two peers' web-browsers.  This
   document specifies the non-media data transport aspects of the WebRTC
   framework.  It provides an architectural overview of how the Stream
   Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is used in the WebRTC context as
   a generic transport service allowing Web Browser to exchange generic
   data from peer to peer.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--_000_39821B4C400EC14DAD4DB25330A9271A0816BB0AFR711WXCHMBA02z_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style id=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body fPStyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">Hi,<br>
<br>
Section 6.4 reads &quot;The simple protocol specified in [I-D.jesup-rtcweb-=
data-protocol] MUST be used to set up and manage the bidirectional data cha=
nnels.&quot;</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">And section 4 of&nbsp; 'draft-ietf-rtcw=
eb-data-protocol' reads: &quot;Alternatively, both sides make externally ag=
ree to a set of parameters for a Channel, in which case no DATA_CHANNEL_OPE=
N message is required.&quot;</p>
<p><br>
I guess&nbsp;the reference should&nbsp;now point to 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data=
-protocol'.<br>
<br>
Also, shouldn't it be clarified (in either 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel'=
&nbsp;or 'draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol') that the optionality of this pr=
otocol is about the app invoking it (through in-band negotiation)&nbsp;or n=
ot (external negotiation), not about the browser
 implementing or not. Currently&nbsp;a reader&nbsp;could wonder whether DAT=
A CHANNEL OPEN is always implemented by WebRTC browsers.<br>
<br>
Jerome </font><br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
De : rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] de la part de intern=
et-drafts@ietf.org [internet-drafts@ietf.org]<br>
Date d'envoi : lundi 15 juillet 2013 21:23<br>
=C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org<br>
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
Objet : [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt<br>
<br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
&nbsp;This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-brows=
ers Working Group of the IETF.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : RTCWeb Data Channels<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Randell Jesup<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Salvatore Loreto<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Michael Tuexen<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 13<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2013-07-15<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) working group is char=
ged to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; provide protocol support for direct interactive rich communica=
tion<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; using audio, video, and data between two peers' web-browsers.&=
nbsp; This<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; document specifies the non-media data transport aspects of the=
 WebRTC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; framework.&nbsp; It provides an architectural overview of how =
the Stream<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is used in the WebRTC con=
text as<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; a generic transport service allowing Web Browser to exchange g=
eneric<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; data from peer to peer.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel<br>
<br>
There's also a htmlized version available at:<br>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05<br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05<br>
<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_39821B4C400EC14DAD4DB25330A9271A0816BB0AFR711WXCHMBA02z_--

From jonathan@vidyo.com  Fri Aug  2 07:00:28 2013
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From: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:00:21 -0400
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-00.txt
Thread-Index: Ac6PiH60vezXWYRyQMGvnYW5oIZhXg==
Message-ID: <764EBF44-98C1-425B-B9A4-8A712E884CD1@vidyo.com>
References: <20130715203130.5677.31855.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAJrXDUFGM9+bw7KcYxwK9s_MbzW2L_1xjshTocgTKxpur345Nw@mail.gmail.com> <DD542B20-8EA3-45F8-B9F1-7991F207F2A1@lurchi.franken.de> <CAJrXDUG5sB63w3p6kDDuNT=_+Pq_m7ZmH+HdX_9c0sVXYBk2gw@mail.gmail.com> <51E85AFF.9090008@jesup.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-00.txt
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Hi, all --

I discovered a few issues with the data channel protocol this week that I w=
ould have brought up at the session, had the discussion of the existing ope=
n issues not consumed all available time and more.


The first is that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message's Protocol field is documen=
ted as "If used, it SHOULD be an IANA-registered protocol."  However, there=
's no indication of what IANA registry to use, and no definition of such a =
registry in the IANA Considerations section.

Is this intended to be a new IANA registry of data channel protocols, or is=
 it re-using some other IANA registry?  If the former, do we want any struc=
ture to the protocol strings, e.g., the ability to pass parameters of proto=
cols?  (The use case that inspired these thoughts was the MSRP-over-datacha=
nnel draft; MSRP has a number of protocol parameters.)  This wouldn't neces=
sarily mean making any changes to DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN -- protocols parameters=
 could easily be specified in the protocol string using something like the =
"protocol;param=3Dvalue;param=3Dvalue" syntax.


The second issue is that the data channel protocol chooses its odd/even str=
eam identifier parity depending on which side in the initial DTLS handshake=
 was the DTLS client, and which the DTLS server.

The problem is that DTLS roles are negotiated in SDP using the comedia mech=
anisms, and as a result, the roles aren't determined until the offer/answer=
 that sets up the DTLS/SCTP connection is complete.  Thus, it's not possibl=
e to assign a stream ID to a stream until after the initial offer/answer.  =
This has implications for stream selection, particularly for the case where=
 an application wants to do external negotiation but asks the browser to as=
sign a stream ID -- it means the exchange of information to set up the exte=
rnally-negotiated data channel can't even begin until the offer/answer exch=
ange is complete.


Thoughts?

--
Jonathan Lennox
jonathan@vidyo.com



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Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W=
orking Group of the IETF.

	Title           : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
	Author(s)       : Jean-Marc Valin
                          Cary Bran
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2013-08-02

Abstract:
   This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements
   for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare
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--047d7b60457cb351dc04e36cf342
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The Webrtc spec states:

=93This API changes the local media state. In order to successfully handle
scenarios where the application wants to offer to change from one media
format to a different, incompatible format, the
RTCPeerConnection<http://www.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#idl-def-RTCPeerConnection>mu=
st
be able to simultaneously support use of both the old and new local
descriptions (e.g. support codecs that exist in both descriptions) until a
final answer is received, at which point the
RTCPeerConnection<http://www.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#idl-def-RTCPeerConnection>ca=
n
fully adopt the new local description, or roll back to the old
description if the remote side denied the change.

Issue 8

ISSUE: how to indicate to roll back?=94

When will rollback be added to webrtc? Is it imminent? We need it to
resolve glare scenarios where both peers renegotiate at the same time. Or
is there another way of resolving glare in webrtc? This is becoming a
pressing concern.

Regards

 =

--------------------
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and con=
fidential =

and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the i=
ntended =

recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this messag=
e to the =

intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distr=
ibution or =

copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have receive=
d this =

communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the m=
essage and =

deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Thrupoint, Inc.
nXaR2cC3
=0D
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--></style></head><body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div =
class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Webrtc spec states:</p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=93This API changes the local me=
dia state. In order to successfully handle scenarios where the application =
wants to offer to change from one media format to a different, incompatible=
 format, the </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#idl-def-RTCPeerConnec=
tion"><span style=3D"color:blue">RTCPeerConnection</span></a></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;seri=
f&quot;"> must be able to simultaneously support use of both the old and ne=
w local descriptions (e.g. support codecs that exist in both descriptions) =
until a final answer is received, at which point the </span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><a href=3D"http://www=
.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#idl-def-RTCPeerConnection"><span style=3D"color:blue">RT=
CPeerConnection</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"> can fully adopt the new l=
ocal description, or roll back to the old description if the remote side de=
nied the change.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Issue 8</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">ISSUE: how to indicate to roll back?=94</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">When will rollback be added to=
 webrtc? Is it imminent? We need it to resolve glare scenarios where both p=
eers renegotiate at the same time. Or is there another way of resolving gla=
re in webrtc? This is becoming a pressing concern.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Regards</span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></body></html>

<pre> =

--------------------
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fidential =

and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the i=
ntended =

recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this messag=
e to the =

intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distr=
ibution or =

copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have receive=
d this =

communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the m=
essage and =

deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Thrupoint, Inc.
nXaR2cC3
=0D
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From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" <uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 14:51:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare
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Hi,

+1

In the Open Mobile Alliance, a REST API is being defined, intended to be ex=
posed by a gateway that offers WebRTC access to IMS (or even PSTN).=20
For that work, it is also necessary to understand how rollback will work in=
 the PeerConnection API.
=A0
Kind regards,
Uwe Rauschenbach

--
Dr. Uwe Rauschenbach
Senior Specialist=20
NSN, Technology & Innovation
St.-Martin-Str. 76, D-81541 Munich, Germany=20
Tel.: +49 89 5159 29751
Mobile: +49 173 3083573=20

Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH=20
Gesch=E4ftsleitung / Board of Directors: Andreas Sauer, Ralf Dietzel=20
Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=FCnchen / Registered office: Munich=20
Registergericht: M=FCnchen / Commercial registry: Munich, HRB 198081

--------------------------------------------
From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 ext Andrea Dixon
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:17 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare

The Webrtc spec states:
"This API changes the local media state. In order to successfully handle sc=
enarios where the application wants to offer to change from one media forma=
t to a different, incompatible format, the RTCPeerConnection must be able t=
o simultaneously support use of both the old and new local descriptions (e.=
g. support codecs that exist in both descriptions) until a final answer is =
received, at which point the RTCPeerConnection can fully adopt the new loca=
l description, or roll back to the old description if the remote side denie=
d the change.
Issue 8
ISSUE: how to indicate to roll back?"
When will rollback be added to webrtc? Is it imminent? We need it to resolv=
e glare scenarios where both peers renegotiate at the same time. Or is ther=
e another way of resolving glare in webrtc? This is becoming a pressing con=
cern.
Regards
=A0
=20
--------------------
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confi=
dential=20
and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the int=
ended=20
recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message =
to the=20
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distrib=
ution or=20
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received =
this=20
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the mes=
sage and=20
deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Thrupoint, Inc.
nXaR2cC3


From D.Hancock@CableLabs.com  Thu Aug  8 09:57:39 2013
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From: David Hancock <D.Hancock@CableLabs.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements
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Subject: [rtcweb] Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements
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A comment on the WebRTC use-case draft related to media sources...

Requirement F1 says local mic/cameras can be used as media sources.

    "F1      The browser must be able to use microphones and
        cameras as input devices to generate streams."

I've been told that a media source can also be an incoming media stream
from a peer, for example, where Browser-B relays media received from
Browser-A to Browser-C, like this=8A

    +---+    +---+    +---+
    | A |--->| B |--->| C |
    +---+    +---+    +---+

Likewise with the data channel =8B a WebRTC browser should be able to relay
data-channel data from one browser to another.

I think this is a useful capability, but I don't see it stated anywhere in
the use-case document.

I suggest we add a requirement covering this. Here's some proposed text...

    "Fx The browser must be able to relay incoming media or data streams
to a peer."



Thanks
David Hancock


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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 13:34:39 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare
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The thinking has been to pass in a SessionDescription of type "rollback" to
the API. See 4.2.3.2 in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-0=
3
.


On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) <
uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> +1
>
> In the Open Mobile Alliance, a REST API is being defined, intended to be
> exposed by a gateway that offers WebRTC access to IMS (or even PSTN).
> For that work, it is also necessary to understand how rollback will work
> in the PeerConnection API.
>
> Kind regards,
> Uwe Rauschenbach
>
> --
> Dr. Uwe Rauschenbach
> Senior Specialist
> NSN, Technology & Innovation
> St.-Martin-Str. 76, D-81541 Munich, Germany
> Tel.: +49 89 5159 29751
> Mobile: +49 173 3083573
>
> Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH
> Gesch=C3=A4ftsleitung / Board of Directors: Andreas Sauer, Ralf Dietzel
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=C3=BCnchen / Registered office: Munich
> Registergericht: M=C3=BCnchen / Commercial registry: Munich, HRB 198081
>
> --------------------------------------------
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Andrea Dixon
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:17 PM
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare
>
> The Webrtc spec states:
> "This API changes the local media state. In order to successfully handle
> scenarios where the application wants to offer to change from one media
> format to a different, incompatible format, the RTCPeerConnection must be
> able to simultaneously support use of both the old and new local
> descriptions (e.g. support codecs that exist in both descriptions) until =
a
> final answer is received, at which point the RTCPeerConnection can fully
> adopt the new local description, or roll back to the old description if t=
he
> remote side denied the change.
> Issue 8
> ISSUE: how to indicate to roll back?"
> When will rollback be added to webrtc? Is it imminent? We need it to
> resolve glare scenarios where both peers renegotiate at the same time. Or
> is there another way of resolving glare in webrtc? This is becoming a
> pressing concern.
> Regards
>
>
> --------------------
> Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and
> confidential
> and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
> recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this messag=
e
> to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have receive=
d
> this
> communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
> message and
> deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Thrupoint, Inc.
> nXaR2cC3
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The thinking has been to pass in a SessionDescription of t=
ype &quot;rollback&quot; to the API. See 4.2.3.2 in=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03</a>.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 8=
, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com" target=3D"_blank">uwe.rausche=
nbach@nsn.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
In the Open Mobile Alliance, a REST API is being defined, intended to be ex=
posed by a gateway that offers WebRTC access to IMS (or even PSTN).<br>
For that work, it is also necessary to understand how rollback will work in=
 the PeerConnection API.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Uwe Rauschenbach<br>
<br>
--<br>
Dr. Uwe Rauschenbach<br>
Senior Specialist<br>
NSN, Technology &amp; Innovation<br>
St.-Martin-Str. 76, D-81541 Munich, Germany<br>
Tel.: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%2089%205159%2029751" value=3D"+4989515929751">+4=
9 89 5159 29751</a><br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20173%203083573" value=3D"+491733083573">+49 1=
73 3083573</a><br>
<br>
Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH<br>
Gesch=C3=A4ftsleitung / Board of Directors: Andreas Sauer, Ralf Dietzel<br>
Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=C3=BCnchen / Registered office: Munich<br>
Registergericht: M=C3=BCnchen / Commercial registry: Munich, HRB 198081<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a=
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On Behalf Of ext Andrea Dixon<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:17 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [rtcweb] media rollback and glare<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
The Webrtc spec states:<br>
&quot;This API changes the local media state. In order to successfully hand=
le scenarios where the application wants to offer to change from one media =
format to a different, incompatible format, the RTCPeerConnection must be a=
ble to simultaneously support use of both the old and new local description=
s (e.g. support codecs that exist in both descriptions) until a final answe=
r is received, at which point the RTCPeerConnection can fully adopt the new=
 local description, or roll back to the old description if the remote side =
denied the change.<br>


Issue 8<br>
ISSUE: how to indicate to roll back?&quot;<br>
When will rollback be added to webrtc? Is it imminent? We need it to resolv=
e glare scenarios where both peers renegotiate at the same time. Or is ther=
e another way of resolving glare in webrtc? This is becoming a pressing con=
cern.<br>


Regards<br>
=C2=A0<br>
<br>
--------------------<br>
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confi=
dential<br>
and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the int=
ended<br>
recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message =
to the<br>
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distrib=
ution or<br>
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received =
this<br>
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the mes=
sage and<br>
deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Thrupoint, Inc.<br>
nXaR2cC3<br>
<br>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b41426c87585704e3759783--

From ggb@tokbox.com  Fri Aug  9 12:52:35 2013
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From: Gustavo Garcia <ggb@tokbox.com>
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Subject: [rtcweb] Simulcast and layered video coding support in WebRTC
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We have submitted this new draft explaining use cases and requirements =
for simulcast and layered video with VP8 in WebRTC.   Feedback or =
recommendations on how to proceed to move forward with these features =
are more than welcomed.

We tested existing temporal scalability capabilities with custom =
versions of Chrome some weeks ago and posted our experience to =
discuss-webrtc mailing list were more people showed interested on this =
feature in the context of multiconferencing solutions.

G.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Subject: I-D Action: =
draft-garcia-simulcast-and-layered-video-webrtc-00.txt
> Date: 5 de agosto de 2013 13:37:54 PDT
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Reply-To: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Simulcast and layered video coding support in =
WebRTC
> 	Author(s)       : Gustavo Garcia
> 	Filename        : =
draft-garcia-simulcast-and-layered-video-webrtc-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2013-08-05
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes the use cases and requirements for simulcast
>   and layered video coding support in WebRTC.  These techniques
>   simplify the implementation of video stream adaptation to different
>   participants in centralized conferencing solutions.  This document
>   also includes a proposal to expose these capabilities in the =
existing
>   PeerConnection API by defining new media constraint properties.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-garcia-simulcast-and-layered-video-=
webrtc
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-garcia-simulcast-and-layered-video-webrtc=
-00
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Aug 14 04:30:42 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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Greetings,

department of small hacks: As part of updating the -overview document, I 
wrote a small dependency graph extractor, to see what we are looking at 
in terms of getting things done.

Here's what I came up with as direct and indirect *normative* 
dependencies for -overview (with all the normal caveats for text 
processing utilities invented from scratch in an afternoon):

draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps

There's also these links that don't reference any current draft:

Missing file: draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle-00 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt
Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-04.txt
Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-06.txt

Now - apart from those drafts - do the chairs or the participants know 
of OTHER drafts that should be referenced, directly or indirectly, from 
the -overview draft?



From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Aug 14 04:58:19 2013
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From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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I assume implementation of the unified decision into the drafts will produc=
e a whole set of other dependencies.

The best view of that at the moment is Adam's slides in the second RFCWEB s=
ession in Berlin.

I guess it depends whether you want the situation at the moment, or somethi=
ng to plan the work going forward, as to whether you include those or not.

Regards

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Harald Alvestrand
> Sent: 14 August 2013 12:31
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
>=20
> Greetings,
>=20
> department of small hacks: As part of updating the -overview document, I
> wrote a small dependency graph extractor, to see what we are looking at
> in terms of getting things done.
>=20
> Here's what I came up with as direct and indirect *normative*
> dependencies for -overview (with all the normal caveats for text
> processing utilities invented from scratch in an afternoon):
>=20
> draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
> draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
> draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
> draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
> draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
>=20
> There's also these links that don't reference any current draft:
>=20
> Missing file: draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle-00 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt
> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-04.txt
> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-06.txt
>=20
> Now - apart from those drafts - do the chairs or the participants know
> of OTHER drafts that should be referenced, directly or indirectly, from
> the -overview draft?
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Aug 14 05:13:14 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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On 08/14/2013 01:58 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
> I assume implementation of the unified decision into the drafts will produce a whole set of other dependencies.
>
> The best view of that at the moment is Adam's slides in the second RFCWEB session in Berlin.
>
> I guess it depends whether you want the situation at the moment, or something to plan the work going forward, as to whether you include those or not.
I'm looking to help the chairs and the WG figure out what we need to 
finish in order to be finished.
Obviously, if there's normative references that shouldn't be, that needs 
fixing too.

The nice thing about having this thing scripted is that it's easy to 
update the list - I added -unified-plan,
and re-rean the script.

That also led me to locating a bug, so here's the updated list:

draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs
draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers
draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext
draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates
draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately
draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req
draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan
draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata
draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast
draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing

Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-04.txt
Missing file: draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle-00 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt
Missing file: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-04 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07.txt
Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-06.txt
Missing file: draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos-00 in 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
Missing file: draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast-02 in 
internet-drafts/draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00.txt

(the "missing file" code is obviously not completely sensible)



From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Wed Aug 14 05:50:29 2013
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:51:27 +0200
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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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Harald,

I think you are missing:

draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-media-rtp-session-03

/Magnus

On 2013-08-14 14:12, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> On 08/14/2013 01:58 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
>> I assume implementation of the unified decision into the drafts will
>> produce a whole set of other dependencies.
>>
>> The best view of that at the moment is Adam's slides in the second
>> RFCWEB session in Berlin.
>>
>> I guess it depends whether you want the situation at the moment, or
>> something to plan the work going forward, as to whether you include
>> those or not.
> I'm looking to help the chairs and the WG figure out what we need to
> finish in order to be finished.
> Obviously, if there's normative references that shouldn't be, that needs
> fixing too.
> 
> The nice thing about having this thing scripted is that it's easy to
> update the list - I added -unified-plan,
> and re-rean the script.
> 
> That also led me to locating a bug, so here's the updated list:
> 
> draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
> draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
> draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext
> draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately
> draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req
> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
> draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
> draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
> draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
> draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
> draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan
> draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata
> draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast
> draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing
> 
> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-04.txt
> Missing file: draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle-00 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt
> Missing file: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-04 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07.txt
> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-06.txt
> Missing file: draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos-00 in
> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
> Missing file: draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast-02 in
> internet-drafts/draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00.txt
> 
> (the "missing file" code is obviously not completely sensible)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Aug 14 06:20:54 2013
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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On 08/14/2013 02:51 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> Harald,
>
> I think you are missing:
>
> draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-media-rtp-session-03

Hmm.... this SHOULD have been picked up from 
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, where it is listed.
Another bug fixed. Thanks.
(didn't seem to add any more new drafts, though)

> /Magnus
>
> On 2013-08-14 14:12, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
>> On 08/14/2013 01:58 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
>>> I assume implementation of the unified decision into the drafts will
>>> produce a whole set of other dependencies.
>>>
>>> The best view of that at the moment is Adam's slides in the second
>>> RFCWEB session in Berlin.
>>>
>>> I guess it depends whether you want the situation at the moment, or
>>> something to plan the work going forward, as to whether you include
>>> those or not.
>> I'm looking to help the chairs and the WG figure out what we need to
>> finish in order to be finished.
>> Obviously, if there's normative references that shouldn't be, that needs
>> fixing too.
>>
>> The nice thing about having this thing scripted is that it's easy to
>> update the list - I added -unified-plan,
>> and re-rean the script.
>>
>> That also led me to locating a bug, so here's the updated list:
>>
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
>> draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext
>> draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates
>> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
>> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately
>> draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req
>> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
>> draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
>> draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
>> draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
>> draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
>> draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan
>> draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata
>> draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
>> draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast
>> draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing
>>
>> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-04.txt
>> Missing file: draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle-00 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt
>> Missing file: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-04 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07.txt
>> Missing file: draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-01 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-06.txt
>> Missing file: draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos-00 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05.txt
>> Missing file: draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast-02 in
>> internet-drafts/draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00.txt
>>
>> (the "missing file" code is obviously not completely sensible)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Aug 14 07:00:15 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W=
orking Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Overview: Real Time Protocols for Brower-based Applicati=
ons
	Author(s)       : Harald T. Alvestrand
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-07.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2013-08-14

Abstract:
   This document gives an overview and context of a protocol suite
   intended for use with real-time applications that can be deployed in
   browsers - "real time communication on the Web".

   It intends to serve as a starting and coordination point to make sure
   all the parts that are needed to achieve this goal are findable, and
   that the parts that belong in the Internet protocol suite are fully
   specified and on the right publication track.

   This document is a work item of the RTCWEB working group.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Wed Aug 14 08:51:15 2013
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:51:12 +0100
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On 14 August 2013 14:20, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
> ...

I didn't see draft-petithuguenin-behave-turn-uris either.

From petithug@acm.org  Wed Aug 14 09:04:51 2013
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 08/14/2013 08:51 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 14 August 2013 14:20, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> ...
> 
> I didn't see draft-petithuguenin-behave-turn-uris either.

Which BTW is in IETF LC and whose publication is being challenged[1] (together
with draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri).  It would be good to hear from people
who wants to see this work published.

Thanks.

[1]
https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=49&gid=0&k1=933&k2=71426&tid=1376489856
https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=49&gid=0&k1=933&k2=71427&tid=1376489856
https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=49&gid=0&k1=933&k2=71434&tid=1376489856

- -- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
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On 08/14/2013 05:51 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On 14 August 2013 14:20, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> ...
> I didn't see draft-petithuguenin-behave-turn-uris either.
That's a good catch. The URI is used by the Javascript API, but my 
dependency script doesn't follow links into W3C space.

Do we have any IETF draft that should really reference this draft?

      Harald


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We're splitting up the minutes review for the two different days of the
last IETF meeting.  Please review and send corrections to the list.  Many
thanks to Bernard Aboba and Suhas Nandakumar for their excellent notes.

regards,

Ted

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<div dir=3D"ltr">We&#39;re splitting up the minutes review for the two diff=
erent days of the last IETF meeting.=A0 Please review and send corrections =
to the list.=A0 Many thanks to Bernard Aboba and Suhas Nandakumar for their=
 excellent notes.<br>
<br>regards,<br><br>Ted<br></div>

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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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On Aug 14, 2013, at 19:30, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
> Now - apart from those drafts - do the chairs or the participants know =
of OTHER drafts that should be referenced, directly or indirectly, from =
the -overview draft?

I'd have expected draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers to be =
discussed somewhere (appendix A?); similarly =
draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-requirements as a heads-up for an eventual future =
mandatory mechanism out of RMCAT.

Lars

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On 08/15/2013 04:16 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> On Aug 14, 2013, at 19:30, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> Now - apart from those drafts - do the chairs or the participants know of OTHER drafts that should be referenced, directly or indirectly, from the -overview draft?
> I'd have expected draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers to be discussed somewhere (appendix A?); similarly draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-requirements as a heads-up for an eventual future mandatory mechanism out of RMCAT.
>
> Lars
Circuit-breakers are referenced from rtp-usage, so that's covered. 
(missing from my first list because of a bug, included in the second).

rmcat-requirements needs to be an informative reference, so wouldn't 
show up on this scan, but I think it needs to be referenced somewhere. 
rtp-usage or -overview?




From basilgohar@librevideo.org  Thu Aug 15 08:11:14 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Status of realtime/live streaming to large audiences
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This question may be naïve relative to others' knowledge to how rtcweb
is intended to work, but I would like to bring up the issue so that a
discussion exists on this list exists that unambiguously addresses the
question, and can be referred to at a later date when the topic comes-up
elsewhere.  My apologies if this, too, has already been done!

My question involves the usage of rtcweb in single-broadcaster/multiple
listener scenario, such as streaming a real-time/live event that
includes either audio or audio/video content, with a large audience.
Imagine, for example, a setup that is related to distance learning, with
one teacher and many students.

I know that theoretically, rtcweb should support this, but I wanted to
make sure that such a setup is actually explicitly allowed and even
designed for, because it is a usage case that is currently unavailable
to a large portion of users that would like to use a free software-only
solution.

The previous best case was Icecast, but that is not meant for
low-latency streaming by design.  rtcweb, I understand, is exactly for that.

With that out of the way, I am also interested in knowing what solution
implementing rtcweb already exist that can manage and/or handle this
usage scenario (one broadcaster, many listeners).  The previous
solutions seem to use almost exclusively a Flash client using rtsp-based
solution.  The quality is variable and late packets are usually dropped
so as to ensure the user is only seeing real-time data, even at degraded
quality momentarily.

I am interested in further discussion on this topic, so I welcome any
insight anyone may have into using rtcweb in this manner.

Thanks for indulging me!
-- 
Libre Video
http://librevideo.org

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Thu Aug 15 10:04:41 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] References to ICE in -overview
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I just noticed that the only concrete RFC 5245 reference in -overview
is in the appendicies.  The term "ICE agent" is defined by not used in
the main body of the text.  ICE is never expanded on first use.

Should there be a more explicit reference to ICE in Section 7?

From lorenzo@meetecho.com  Thu Aug 15 10:57:54 2013
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 19:57:43 +0200
From: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
To: Basil Mohamed Gohar <basilgohar@librevideo.org>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:10:24 -0400
Basil Mohamed Gohar <basilgohar@librevideo.org> wrote:

> This question may be na=EFve relative to others' knowledge to how rtcweb
> is intended to work, but I would like to bring up the issue so that a
> discussion exists on this list exists that unambiguously addresses the
> question, and can be referred to at a later date when the topic comes-up
> elsewhere.  My apologies if this, too, has already been done!
>=20
> My question involves the usage of rtcweb in single-broadcaster/multiple
> listener scenario, such as streaming a real-time/live event that
> includes either audio or audio/video content, with a large audience.
> Imagine, for example, a setup that is related to distance learning, with
> one teacher and many students.
>=20
> I know that theoretically, rtcweb should support this, but I wanted to
> make sure that such a setup is actually explicitly allowed and even
> designed for, because it is a usage case that is currently unavailable
> to a large portion of users that would like to use a free software-only
> solution.
>=20
> The previous best case was Icecast, but that is not meant for
> low-latency streaming by design.  rtcweb, I understand, is exactly for th=
at.
>=20
> With that out of the way, I am also interested in knowing what solution
> implementing rtcweb already exist that can manage and/or handle this
> usage scenario (one broadcaster, many listeners).  The previous
> solutions seem to use almost exclusively a Flash client using rtsp-based
> solution.  The quality is variable and late packets are usually dropped
> so as to ensure the user is only seeing real-time data, even at degraded
> quality momentarily.
>=20
> I am interested in further discussion on this topic, so I welcome any
> insight anyone may have into using rtcweb in this manner.
>=20
> Thanks for indulging me!


Hi Basil,

we've been working exactly in that direction lately, that is a large scale =
streaming solution based on WebRTC called SOLEIL. I personally believe that=
 WebRTC is perfect for the purpose, as, making use of RTP, it is absolutely=
 suited for an as-real-time-as-possible feed. Besides, it is integrated in =
the browser as existing streaming solutions based on Flash/Silverlight are,=
 which can be seen as a "selling point" as well. About your question, I thi=
nk this is a scenario the current WebRTC spec is already designed for as it=
 is, at least from a specification point of view that is.

We don't have anything usable yet, as we've mostly focused on the backend (=
topology, statistics, etc.) so far, but we hope to have something ready soo=
n.

Lorenzo


> --=20
> Libre Video
> http://librevideo.org
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--=20
Lorenzo Miniero, COB

Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
http://www.meetecho.com

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Thu Aug 15 14:03:59 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents
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I've taken a look at the unresolved normative references in all of the curr=
ent RTCWEB WG work items.  Here are some comments.=20
Overall comment
Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-=
security) have a normative reference to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview=2C while=
 others do not (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel=
=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch).  W=
hile it probably makes sense for some documents to reference an overview of=
 WebRTC=2C the overview document also functions as an overview of work rela=
ting to WebRTC=2C so that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  The =
effect of a normative reference to the overview document is therefore to de=
lay publication until all of the overview normative dependencies are resolv=
ed.  I am therefore wondering whether the normative references to the overv=
iew document are really necessary=2C or whether the dependencies shouldn't =
just go one way (e.g. from the overview to the other docs). =20
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
Two unresolved normative references in this document are to individual subm=
issions:  [I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata]=2C [I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol=
] (now an RTCWEB WG work item).   The reference to  [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-=
prpolicies] is informative=2C even though the document refers to it as a MU=
ST implement in Section 6.1.  Was there any progress at IETF 87 on getting =
the individual submissions adopted as WG work items?=20
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
The normative reference to    [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web]=
 appears to refer to a 2011 individual submission=2C rather than the RTCWEB=
 WG Security Considerations document.  The reference is in Section 8=2C Sec=
urity Considerations=2C which states: =0A=
   The codec requirements have no additional security considerations=0A=
   other than those captured in=0A=
   [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web].
Looking at draft-ietf-rtcweb-security I don't see much in the way of securi=
ty considerations relating to codecs.  This leads me to wonder whether this=
 reference shouldn't be non-normative=2C or even whether it could be remove=
d.=20
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
This document has a normative reference to  [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transpo=
rt-multiplexing].  Since that document hasn't been accepted as a WG work it=
em (and Section 4.4 indicates that there is no consensus to use a shim-base=
d approach)=2C I am wondering if that reference should instead be non-norma=
tive (or be removed entirely).  Here is what the text in Section 4.4 says:=
=20
   It is also possible to use a shim-based approach to run multiple RTP=0A=
   sessions on a single transport-layer flow.  This gives advantages in=0A=
   some gateway scenarios=2C and makes it easy to distinguish groups of=0A=
   RTP media streams that might need distinct processing.  One way of=0A=
   doing this is described in=0A=
   [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing].  At the time of this=0A=
   writing=2C there is no consensus to use a shim-based approach in WebRTC=
=0A=
   implementations.
There is also a normative reference to [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiat=
ion].  Since signaling is out-of-scope of WebRTC=2C I wonder whether this n=
ormative reference=2C which comes from Section 4.4=2C is appropriate.  Here=
 is what the text says:              =0A=
   If such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C this MUST be negotiated duri=
ng=0A=
   the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].=0A=


draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
This document has a normative reference to [I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshn=
ess]=2C which as I understand it is not going to be a BEHAVE WG work item. =
 Does it make sense to pull text from the consent-freshness document into a=
nother RTCWEB WG work item?=20
draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
This document has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  Of these=2C [I-D.na=
ndakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri] and [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps] are to in=
dividual submissions.   The latter is now a WG work item (draft-ietf-tsvwg-=
sctp-dtls-encaps).  As I recall=2C at IETF 87 we discussed getting AD spons=
orship for the stun-uri document=2C right?=20
draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
This document has one unresolved normative reference=2C to draft-ietf-mmusi=
c-traffic-class-for-sdp.  That document has no unresolved normative depende=
ncies.=20





draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements
This document has no unresolved normative references.   Yeah!=20


draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep



This document has 4 unresolved normative dependencies: [I-D.alvestrand-mmus=
ic-msid] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-msid)=2C [I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-ne=
gotiation] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle)=2C [I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signa=
ling] and [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp].   It is also referenced by several d=
ocuments.  Are all these references necessary?=20




draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol

This document has two unresolved normative references=2C but both appear ap=
propriate. =20



            		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>I've taken a look at the unresol=
ved normative references in all of the current RTCWEB WG work items. &nbsp=
=3BHere are some comments.&nbsp=3B<div><br></div><div><b>Overall comment</b=
></div><div><br></div><div>Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-=
usage=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-security)<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">&nbs=
p=3Bhave a normative reference to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview=2C while other=
s do not (</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio=
=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel=2C&nbsp=3Bdraft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protoco=
l=2C draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B">)</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">. &nbsp=3BWhile it probably=
 makes sense for some documents to reference an overview of WebRTC=2C the o=
verview document also functions as an overview of work relating to WebRTC=
=2C so that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies. &nbsp=3BThe effect =
of a normative reference to the overview document is therefore to delay pub=
lication until all of the overview normative dependencies are resolved. &nb=
sp=3BI am therefore wondering whether the normative references to the overv=
iew document are really necessary=2C or whether the dependencies shouldn't =
just go one way (e.g. from the overview to the other docs). &nbsp=3B</span>=
</div><div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel</b>=
</div><div><b><br></b></div><div>Two unresolved normative references in thi=
s document are to individual submissions:&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt=3B"> [</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata" id=3D"ref-I-=
D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.stewart-tsvwg-s=
ctp-ndata]=2C&nbsp=3B</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[</span><a name=
=3D"ref-I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol" id=3D"ref-I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-pro=
tocol" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol</a><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] (now an RTCWEB WG work item). &nbsp=3B The r=
eference to&nbsp=3B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"> [</span><a hr=
ef=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05#ref-I-D.=
tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-prpolicies" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-=
sctp-prpolicies</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] is informative=2C e=
ven though the document refers to it as a MUST implement in Section 6.1. &n=
bsp=3BWas there any progress at IETF 87 on getting the individual submissio=
ns adopted as WG work items?&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><b><br></b></div><div=
><b>draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio</b></div><div><br></div><div>The normative refe=
rence to&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">   [</span><a name=3D"re=
f-I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web" id=3D"ref-I-D.ekr-security-c=
onsiderations-for-rtc-web" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.ekr-security-con=
siderations-for-rtc-web</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] appears to =
refer to a 2011 individual submission=2C rather than the RTCWEB WG Security=
 Considerations document. &nbsp=3BThe reference is in Section 8=2C Security=
 Considerations=2C which states:&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><pre class=3D"new=
page" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B p=
age-break-before: always=3B">=0A=
   The codec requirements have no additional security considerations=0A=
   other than those captured in=0A=
   [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02#ref-I-=
D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web">I-D.ekr-security-considerations-=
for-rtc-web</a>].</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B ma=
rgin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><br></=
pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=
=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif" styl=
e=3D"font-size: 1em=3B"><span style=3D"white-space: normal=3B">Looking at&n=
bsp=3B</span></font><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif"><span style=3D"whi=
te-space: normal=3B">draft-ietf-rtcweb-security I don't see much in the way=
 of security considerations relating to codecs. &nbsp=3BThis leads me to wo=
nder whether this reference shouldn't be non-normative=2C or even whether i=
t could be removed.&nbsp=3B</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=
=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">=
<br></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom:=
 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"white-space: normal=3B"><b>draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage</b></=
span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin=
-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"white-space: normal=3B"><b><br></b></span></font></p=
re><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B=
 page-break-before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space: normal=3B">This document has a normative reference to&=
nbsp=3B</span></font><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=
=2C sans-serif=3B"> [</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport=
-multiplexing" id=3D"ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing" sty=
le=3D"font-size: 1em=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">I-D.westerlu=
nd-avtcore-transport-multiplexing</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font=
-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">].  Since that document hasn't been acce=
pted as a WG work item (and Section 4.4 indicates that there is no consensu=
s to use a shim-based approach)=2C I am wondering if that reference should =
instead be non-normative (or be removed entirely).  Here is what the text i=
n Section 4.4 says: </span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top=
: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B"><br></span></pre=
><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B p=
age-break-before: always=3B"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=
=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">=
   It is also possible to use a shim-based approach to run multiple RTP=0A=
   sessions on a single transport-layer flow.  This gives advantages in=0A=
   some gateway scenarios=2C and makes it easy to distinguish groups of=0A=
   RTP media streams that might need distinct processing.  One way of=0A=
   doing this is described in=0A=
   [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#re=
f-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing">I-D.westerlund-avtcore-tra=
nsport-multiplexing</a>].  At the time of this=0A=
   writing=2C there is no consensus to use a shim-based approach in WebRTC=
=0A=
   implementations.</pre></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B"><br></span></pre><=
pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B pag=
e-break-before: always=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: C=
alibri=2C sans-serif=3B">There is also a normative reference to </span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">[</spa=
n><a name=3D"ref-I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation" id=3D"ref-I-D.ietf=
-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B font-family: Cal=
ibri=2C sans-serif=3B">I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation</a><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">].  Since si=
gnaling is out-of-scope of WebRTC=2C I wonder whether this normative refere=
nce=2C which comes from Section 4.4=2C is appropriate.  Here is what the te=
xt says: </span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B mar=
gin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">       =
      </pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-botto=
m: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"fon=
t-size: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: =
always=3B">=0A=
   If such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C this MUST be negotiated duri=
ng=0A=
   the signalling phase [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-r=
tcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation">I-D.ietf-mmu=
sic-sdp-bundle-negotiation</a>].=0A=
</pre><div><br></div></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=
=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><br></pre><pre clas=
s=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-=
before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif"><span style=3D"whit=
e-space: normal=3B"><b>draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch</b></span></font></p=
re><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B=
 page-break-before: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space: normal=3B"><b><br></b></span></font></pre><pre class=
=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-b=
efore: always=3B"><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif"><span style=3D"white=
-space: normal=3B">This document has a normative reference to<b>&nbsp=3B</b=
></span></font><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sa=
ns-serif=3B">[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness" id=
=3D"ref-I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B font=
-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness</a><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">]=2C=
 which as I understand it is not going to be a BEHAVE WG work item.  Does i=
t make sense to pull text from the consent-freshness document into another =
RTCWEB WG work item? </span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><b style=3D"f=
ont-size: 12pt=3B white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=
=3B"><br></b></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margi=
n-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><b style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">draft-iet=
f-rtcweb-overview</b></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=
=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><b style=3D"font-si=
ze: 12pt=3B white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B"><=
br></b></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bott=
om: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B =
white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">This document=
 has 9 unresolved normative dependencies. &nbsp=3BOf these=2C&nbsp=3B</span=
><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">[=
</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri" id=3D"ref-I-D.nandaku=
mar-rtcweb-stun-uri" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B font-family: Calibri=2C san=
s-serif=3B">I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12p=
t=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">] and </span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 12pt=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">[</span><a name=3D"r=
ef-I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps" id=3D"ref-I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-=
encaps" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">I=
-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-=
family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B">] are to individual submissions.   The la=
tter is now a WG work item (</span><font face=3D"Calibri=2C sans-serif">dra=
ft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps</font><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C=
 sans-serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B">).  As I recall=2C at IETF 87 we discuss=
ed getting AD sponsorship for the stun-uri document=2C right? </span></pre>=
<pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B pa=
ge-break-before: always=3B"><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-seri=
f=3B white-space: normal=3B"><br></div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><b style=
=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C sans-=
serif=3B">draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos</b></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"ma=
rgin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><b sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B white-space: normal=3B font-family: Calibri=2C san=
s-serif=3B"><br></b></pre><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=
=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">This documen=
t has one unresolved normative reference=2C to&nbsp=3B</span><font face=3D"=
Calibri=2C sans-serif" style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">draft-ietf-mmusic-traff=
ic-class-for-sdp. &nbsp=3BThat document has no unresolved normative depende=
ncies.&nbsp=3B</font></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=
=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"line-height: 0px=3B"><b><br></b>=
</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-spac=
e: normal=3B"><span style=3D"line-height: 0px=3B"><b><br></b></span></div><=
div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B">=
<span style=3D"line-height: 0px=3B"><b><br></b></span></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D=
"line-height: 0px=3B"><b><br></b></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Ca=
libri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"line-height: =
0px=3B"><b><br></b></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-=
serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"line-height: 0px=3B"><b><br=
></b></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white=
-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"line-height: 0px=3B"><b>draft-ietf-rtcweb=
-use-cases-and-requirements</b></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Cali=
bri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><u><br></u></div><div style=3D=
"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B">This documen=
t has no unresolved normative references. &nbsp=3B Yeah!<span style=3D"font=
-size: 12pt=3B">&nbsp=3B</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C =
sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B lin=
e-height: 0pt=3B"><u><br></u></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibr=
i=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B line-height: 0pt=3B"><u><br></u></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B">draft-ietf-rt=
cweb-jsep</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B w=
hite-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=
=3B font-weight: bold=3B"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calib=
ri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B"><br></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B"><br></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B"><br></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B">This document has 4 unresolve=
d normative dependencies:&nbsp=3B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">=
[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.alvestrand-mmusic-msid" id=3D"ref-I-D.alvestrand=
-mmusic-msid" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.alvestrand-mmusic-msid</a><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-msid)=2C&nbsp=3B</=
span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.holmberg=
-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation" id=3D"ref-I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-ne=
gotiation" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negot=
iation</a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-b=
undle)=2C&nbsp=3B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">[</span><a name=
=3D"ref-I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signaling" id=3D"ref-I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signal=
ing" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signaling</a><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">] and&nbsp=3B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12p=
t=3B">[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp" id=3D"ref-I-D.nanda=
kumar-rtcweb-sdp" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B">I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp</a>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">]. &nbsp=3B It is also referenced by sev=
eral documents. &nbsp=3BAre all these references necessary?&nbsp=3B</span><=
/div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: norma=
l=3B"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-s=
pace: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sa=
ns-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-=
height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B"><br></span></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B">=
<br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-=
space: normal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B fon=
t-weight: bold=3B">draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol</span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: normal=3B"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight: bold=3B"><br></sp=
an></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B white-space: n=
ormal=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B line-height: 0pt=3B font-weight=
: bold=3B"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-seri=
f=3B white-space: normal=3B">This document has two unresolved normative ref=
erences=2C but both appear appropriate.&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12=
pt=3B">&nbsp=3B</span></div></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B"><span style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri=2C sans-serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></=
pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=
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From: "Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)" <mperumal@cisco.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents
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On I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness, we are currently discussing with the=
 related chairs to find a home for it..

Muthu

From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Bernard Aboba
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 2:34 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documen=
ts

I've taken a look at the unresolved normative references in all of the curr=
ent RTCWEB WG work items.  Here are some comments.

Overall comment

Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, draft-ietf-rtcweb-se=
curity) have a normative reference to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview, while oth=
ers do not (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio, draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, draft-=
ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol, draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch).  While it prob=
ably makes sense for some documents to reference an overview of WebRTC, the=
 overview document also functions as an overview of work relating to WebRTC=
, so that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  The effect of a norm=
ative reference to the overview document is therefore to delay publication =
until all of the overview normative dependencies are resolved.  I am theref=
ore wondering whether the normative references to the overview document are=
 really necessary, or whether the dependencies shouldn't just go one way (e=
.g. from the overview to the other docs).

draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel

Two unresolved normative references in this document are to individual subm=
issions:  [I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata], [I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol] =
(now an RTCWEB WG work item).   The reference to  [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-pr=
policies<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05#ref-I=
-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-prpolicies>] is informative, even though the document =
refers to it as a MUST implement in Section 6.1.  Was there any progress at=
 IETF 87 on getting the individual submissions adopted as WG work items?

draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio

The normative reference to  [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web] a=
ppears to refer to a 2011 individual submission, rather than the RTCWEB WG =
Security Considerations document.  The reference is in Section 8, Security =
Considerations, which states:



   The codec requirements have no additional security considerations

   other than those captured in

   [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web<http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02#ref-I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web>=
].


Looking at draft-ietf-rtcweb-security I don't see much in the way of securi=
ty considerations relating to codecs.  This leads me to wonder whether this=
 reference shouldn't be non-normative, or even whether it could be removed.


draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage


This document has a normative reference to  [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transpo=
rt-multiplexing].  Since that document hasn't been accepted as a WG work it=
em (and Section 4.4 indicates that there is no consensus to use a shim-base=
d approach), I am wondering if that reference should instead be non-normati=
ve (or be removed entirely).  Here is what the text in Section 4.4 says:


   It is also possible to use a shim-based approach to run multiple RTP

   sessions on a single transport-layer flow.  This gives advantages in

   some gateway scenarios, and makes it easy to distinguish groups of

   RTP media streams that might need distinct processing.  One way of

   doing this is described in

   [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing<http://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multi=
plexing>].  At the time of this

   writing, there is no consensus to use a shim-based approach in WebRTC

   implementations.


There is also a normative reference to [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiat=
ion].  Since signaling is out-of-scope of WebRTC, I wonder whether this nor=
mative reference, which comes from Section 4.4, is appropriate.  Here is wh=
at the text says:





   If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during

   the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation<http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bund=
le-negotiation>].




draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch


This document has a normative reference to [I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshn=
ess], which as I understand it is not going to be a BEHAVE WG work item.  D=
oes it make sense to pull text from the consent-freshness document into ano=
ther RTCWEB WG work item?


draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview


This document has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  Of these, [I-D.nand=
akumar-rtcweb-stun-uri] and [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps] are to indi=
vidual submissions.   The latter is now a WG work item (draft-ietf-tsvwg-sc=
tp-dtls-encaps).  As I recall, at IETF 87 we discussed getting AD sponsorsh=
ip for the stun-uri document, right?


draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos


This document has one unresolved normative reference, to draft-ietf-mmusic-=
traffic-class-for-sdp.  That document has no unresolved normative dependenc=
ies.













draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements



This document has no unresolved normative references.   Yeah!







draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep









This document has 4 unresolved normative dependencies: [I-D.alvestrand-mmus=
ic-msid] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-msid), [I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-nego=
tiation] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle), [I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signaling=
] and [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp].   It is also referenced by several docum=
ents.  Are all these references necessary?











draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol





This document has two unresolved normative references, but both appear appr=
opriate.







--_000_E721D8C6A2E1544DB2DEBC313AF54DE224207685xmbrcdx02ciscoc_
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">On I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness, we are currently di=
scussing with the related chairs to find a home for it..<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Muthu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 16, 2013 2:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG =
documents<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">I've taken a look at the unresolved normative references=
 in all of the current RTCWEB WG work items. &nbsp;Here are some comments.&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">Overall comment</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, d=
raft-ietf-rtcweb-security)&nbsp;have a normative reference to draft-ietf-rt=
cweb-overview, while others do not (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio,
 draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel,&nbsp;draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol, draf=
t-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch). &nbsp;While it probably makes sense for some =
documents to reference an overview of WebRTC, the overview document also fu=
nctions as an overview of work relating to
 WebRTC, so that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies. &nbsp;The effe=
ct of a normative reference to the overview document is therefore to delay =
publication until all of the overview normative dependencies are resolved. =
&nbsp;I am therefore wondering whether the
 normative references to the overview document are really necessary, or whe=
ther the dependencies shouldn't just go one way (e.g. from the overview to =
the other docs). &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel</span></b><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Two unresolved normative references in this document are=
 to individual submissions:&nbsp; [<a name=3D"ref-I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-nd=
ata" id=3D"ref-I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata">I-D.stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata],=
&nbsp;</a>[<a name=3D"ref-I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol" id=3D"ref-I-D.jes=
up-rtcweb-data-protocol">I-D.jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol</a>]
 (now an RTCWEB WG work item). &nbsp; The reference to&nbsp; [<a href=3D"ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-05#ref-I-D.tuexen-t=
svwg-sctp-prpolicies">I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-prpolicies</a>] is informative,=
 even though the document refers to it as a
 MUST implement in Section 6.1. &nbsp;Was there any progress at IETF 87 on =
getting the individual submissions adopted as WG work items?&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">The normative reference to&nbsp; [<a name=3D"ref-I-D.ekr=
-security-considerations-for-" id=3D"ref-I-D.ekr-security-considerations-fo=
r-rtc-web">I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web</a>] appears
 to refer to a 2011 individual submission, rather than the RTCWEB WG Securi=
ty Considerations document. &nbsp;The reference is in Section 8, Security C=
onsiderations, which states:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp; The codec requirements have no additional security consideration=
s<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp; other than those captured in<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp; [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-0=
2#ref-I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web">I-D.ekr-security-conside=
rations-for-rtc-web</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-far=
east-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Looking at&nbsp;draft-ietf-rtcweb-secur=
ity I don't see much in the way of security considerations relating to code=
cs. &nbsp;This leads me to wonder whether this reference shouldn't be non-n=
ormative, or even whether it could be removed.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-far=
east-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage</span></=
b><o:p></o:p></pre>
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-=
break-before:always">
</span></b>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has a normative reference=
 to&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> [</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore=
-transport-mul" id=3D"ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.we=
sterlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">].&nbsp; Sin=
ce that document hasn't been accepted as a WG work item (and Section 4.4 in=
dicates that there is no consensus to use a shim-based approach), I am wond=
ering if that reference should instead be non-normative (or be removed enti=
rely).&nbsp; Here is what the text in Section 4.4 says: </span><o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-bre=
ak-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is also possib=
le to use a shim-based approach to run multiple RTP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; sessions on a single t=
ransport-layer flow.&nbsp; This gives advantages in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; some gateway scenarios=
, and makes it easy to distinguish groups of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; RTP media streams that=
 might need distinct processing.&nbsp; One way of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; doing this is describe=
d in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a href=3D"http://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.westerlund-avtcore-=
transport-multiplexing">I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing</a>].=
&nbsp; At the time of this<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; writing, there is no c=
onsensus to use a shim-based approach in WebRTC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; implementations.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-bre=
ak-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">There is also a normat=
ive reference to [</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiat=
i" id=3D"ref-I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle=
-negotiation</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">].&nbsp; Since signaling is out-of-scop=
e of WebRTC, I wonder whether this normative reference, which comes from Se=
ction 4.4, is appropriate.&nbsp; Here is what the text says: </span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; If such RTP session se=
t-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&nbsp;&nbsp; the signalling phase [=
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-=
D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation">I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiatio=
n</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</div>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-far=
east-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch</spa=
n></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-=
break-before:always">
</span></b>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has a normative reference=
 to<b>&nbsp;</b></span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.muthu-behave=
-consent-freshness" id=3D"ref-I-D.muthu-behave-consent-freshness"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.muthu-beh=
ave-consent-freshness</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">], which as I understand it is=
 not going to be a BEHAVE WG work item.&nbsp; Does it make sense to pull te=
xt from the consent-freshness document into another RTCWEB WG work item? </=
span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-=
break-before:always">
</span></b>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-o=
verview</span></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-=
break-before:always">
</span></b>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has 9 un=
resolved normative dependencies. &nbsp;Of these,&nbsp;[</span><a name=3D"re=
f-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri" id=3D"ref-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri"=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D=
.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">] and [</span><a name=3D=
"ref-I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps" id=3D"ref-I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtl=
s-encaps"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;">I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">] are to ind=
ividual submissions.&nbsp;&nbsp; The latter is now a WG work item (</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft=
-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">).&nbsp; As I recall, at IE=
TF 87 we discussed getting AD sponsorship for the stun-uri document, right?=
 </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-bre=
ak-before:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-q=
os</span></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-=
break-before:always">
</span></b>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has one =
unresolved normative reference, to&nbsp;draft-ietf-mmusic-traffic-class-for=
-sdp. &nbsp;That document has no unresolved normative dependencies.&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requ=
irements</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has no unresolved normati=
ve references. &nbsp; Yeah!</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-j=
sep</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has 4 un=
resolved normative dependencies:&nbsp;[</span><a name=3D"ref-I-D.alvestrand=
-mmusic-msid" id=3D"ref-I-D.alvestrand-mmusic-msid"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.alvestrand-mmusic-msid<=
/span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-msid),&nbsp;[</span><a name=
=3D"ref-I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negot" id=3D"ref-I-D.holmberg-mmusic=
-sdp-bundle-negotiation"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation</span></a><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;">] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle),&nbsp;[</span><a name=3D"r=
ef-I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signaling" id=3D"ref-I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signaling">=
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.=
jennings-rtcweb-signaling</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">] and&nbsp;[</span><a name=
=3D"ref-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp" id=3D"ref-I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I-D.nan=
dakumar-rtcweb-sdp</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]. &nbsp; It is also referenced b=
y several documents. &nbsp;Are all these references necessary?&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-d=
ata-protocol</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This document has two unresolved normat=
ive references, but both appear appropriate.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp=
;</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-bre=
ak-before:always">
<br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=
=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-befor=
e:always">
</span>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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Subject: [rtcweb] References to -overview (Re: Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents)
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On 08/15/2013 11:03 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> I've taken a look at the unresolved normative references in all of the
> current RTCWEB WG work items.  Here are some comments. 
>
> *Overall comment*
>
> Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage,
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security) have a normative reference to
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview, while others do not
> (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio,
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol,
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch).  While it probably makes sense for
> some documents to reference an overview of WebRTC, the overview
> document also functions as an overview of work relating to WebRTC, so
> that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  The effect of a
> normative reference to the overview document is therefore to delay
> publication until all of the overview normative dependencies are
> resolved.  I am therefore wondering whether the normative references
> to the overview document are really necessary, or whether the
> dependencies shouldn't just go one way (e.g. from the overview to the
> other docs).  
>
In my opinion, the normal case should be that references to -overview
are informative, not normative. Documents should be published when
they're ready.

Most likely, the proper form is something like "This document specifies
a protocol intended for use within the WebRTC effort, but is not
restricted to that context. An overview of the WebRTC effort is given in
[OVERVIEW]".

Or something like that.


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/15/2013 11:03 PM, Bernard Aboba
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU169-W11426A149ADD0123A6BEF4C93460@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
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      <div dir="ltr">I've taken a look at the unresolved normative
        references in all of the current RTCWEB WG work items. &nbsp;Here are
        some comments.&nbsp;
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><b>Overall comment</b></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage,
          draft-ietf-rtcweb-security)<span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;have
            a normative reference to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview, while
            others do not (</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio,
            draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel,&nbsp;draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol,
            draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch</span><span
            style="font-size: 12pt;">)</span><span style="font-size:
            12pt;">. &nbsp;While it probably makes sense for some documents
            to reference an overview of WebRTC, the overview document
            also functions as an overview of work relating to WebRTC, so
            that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies. &nbsp;The effect
            of a normative reference to the overview document is
            therefore to delay publication until all of the overview
            normative dependencies are resolved. &nbsp;I am therefore
            wondering whether the normative references to the overview
            document are really necessary, or whether the dependencies
            shouldn't just go one way (e.g. from the overview to the
            other docs). &nbsp;</span></div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    In my opinion, the normal case should be that references to
    -overview are informative, not normative. Documents should be
    published when they're ready.<br>
    <br>
    Most likely, the proper form is something like "This document
    specifies a protocol intended for use within the WebRTC effort, but
    is not restricted to that context. An overview of the WebRTC effort
    is given in [OVERVIEW]".<br>
    <br>
    Or something like that.<br>
    <br>
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From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Sun Aug 18 14:59:02 2013
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To: "'Harald Alvestrand'" <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] References to -overview (Re: Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents)
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Harald said: 

 

"In my opinion, the normal case should be that references to -overview are
informative, not normative. Documents should be published when they're
ready."

[BA]  Looking over the both RTP usage and security documents, it seems
reasonable to convert the normative references to informative in both cases

Looking at the RTP usage document, there is no normative language that
points to -overview and in fact -overview is only mentioned twice: 

Section 1

 
   The WebRTC overview [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.ietf-rtcw
eb-overview> ] outlines the complete
   WebRTC framework, of which this memo is a part.
 
[BA] While -overview does reference RTP usage, and the RTP usage document is
certainly an important part of WebRTC, I don't think this implies a
normative reference to -overview.  After all, almost everything in the RTP
usage document can (and probably has been) implemented outside of WebRTC. 

 

Section 3

 
   Other terms are used according to their definitions from the RTP
   Specification [RFC3550 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3550> ] and WebRTC
overview
   [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D.ietf-rtcw
eb-overview> ] documents.

 

[BA] This sentence doesn't point to specific terms defined in Section 2.4 of
-overview that are needed for understanding the RTP usage document, but if
there are some, those could be added to the RTP usage document, rather than
requiring a normative reference.  

The security document only has a single reference to -overview: 

Section 1

   The Real-Time Communications on the Web (RTCWEB) working group is
   tasked with standardizing protocols for real-time communications
   between Web browsers, generally called "WebRTC"

   [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-05#ref-I-D.ietf-rtcwe
b-overview> ].

[BA] Since the security documents has its own introductory material, and
doesn't reference terminology or other aspects of -overview other than the
above, an informative reference seems like it should be fine. 


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lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Harald said: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;</span>In my opinion, the normal case =
should be that references to -overview are informative, not normative. =
Documents should be published when they're ready.<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[BA] &nbsp;Looking over the both RTP usage and =
security documents, it seems reasonable to convert the normative =
references to informative in both cases<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Looking at the RTP usage document, there is no =
normative language that points to &#8211;overview and in fact -overview =
is only mentioned twice: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Section =
1<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
lang=3DEN><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
WebRTC overview [<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D=
.ietf-rtcweb-overview">I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview</a>] outlines the =
complete<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; WebRTC =
framework, of which this memo is a part.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
lang=3DEN><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>[BA] While =
&#8211;overview does reference RTP usage, and the RTP usage document is =
certainly an important part of WebRTC, I don&#8217;t think this implies =
a normative reference to &#8211;overview. &nbsp;After all, almost =
everything in the RTP usage document can (and probably has been) =
implemented outside of WebRTC. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Section =
3<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
lang=3DEN><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; Other =
terms are used according to their definitions from the =
RTP<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; Specification [<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3550" title=3D"&quot;RTP: A =
Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications&quot;">RFC3550</a>] and =
WebRTC overview<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-07#ref-I-D=
.ietf-rtcweb-overview">I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview</a>] =
documents.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'> [BA] This =
sentence doesn&#8217;t point to specific terms defined in Section 2.4 of =
&#8211;overview that are needed for understanding the RTP usage =
document, but if there are some, those could be added to the RTP usage =
document, rather than requiring a normative reference. =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The security document only has a single reference to &#8211;overview: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Section 1<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
Real-Time Communications on the Web (RTCWEB) working group =
is<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; tasked with standardizing protocols for real-time =
communications<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; between =
Web browsers, generally called =
&quot;WebRTC&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN>&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-05#ref-I-D.=
ietf-rtcweb-overview">I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview</a>].</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[BA] Since the security documents has its own introductory material, =
and doesn&#8217;t reference terminology or other aspects of =
&#8211;overview other than the above, an informative reference seems =
like it should be fine. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W=
orking Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2013-08-19

Abstract:
   This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB,
   including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes
   such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
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--047d7bd76bb25187b304e4505699
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Howdy,

You may notice in the next week that draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt will
expire.  Cullen and Justin have set September 16th as the date for the new
-04; please read through it as soon as it is available.  The chairs will be
working on setting a time for a call to have a no-decisions walk through of
the draft to look for clarifying questions and to identify issues to be
raised on the list.

regards,

Ted Hardie

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Howdy,<br><br></div>You may notice in the next week t=
hat d<font><span style=3D"font-weight:normal"><span id=3D":1ev" class=3D"" =
tabindex=3D"-1">raft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-03.txt will expire.=A0 Cullen and Jus=
tin have set September 16th as the date for the new -04; please read throug=
h it as soon as it is available.=A0 The chairs will be working on setting a=
 time for a call to have a no-decisions walk through of the draft to look f=
or clarifying questions and to identify issues to be raised on the list. <b=
r>
<br>regards,<br><br>Ted Hardie<br></span></span></font></div>

--047d7bd76bb25187b304e4505699--

From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Aug 19 14:20:50 2013
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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:20:41 +0200
From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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As indicated in the -overview draft, it seemed logical to collect the 
information about the transport
profile for RTCWEB in a separate document.

It is only 6 pages including all boilerplate, and has a couple of open 
issues that the WG needs to address.

I'll emit an updated -overview shortly, with the corresponding appendix 
removed.

Let the reviews begin!

              Harald


On 08/19/2013 07:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>   This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 6
> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>
> Abstract:
>     This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB,
>     including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes
>     such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:

> As indicated in the -overview draft, it seemed logical to collect the =
information about the transport
> profile for RTCWEB in a separate document.
>=20
> It is only 6 pages including all boilerplate, and has a couple of open =
issues that the WG needs to address.
>=20
> I'll emit an updated -overview shortly, with the corresponding =
appendix removed.
>=20
> Let the reviews begin!

If per-*packet* DSCP setting is necessary (such as when bundling is =
used), both Section 2.1 and 2.2 should clarify that requirement.  For =
example FreeBSD's IPv4 stack didn't have that capability recently, per =
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3D165305.  I am sure many, =
many middleboxes don't have that capability (and might take action based =
on the first DSCP value they see, under the assumption that the 5-tuple =
flow will continue to use that same DSCP value).

Section 2.2,
"   In order to deal with symmetric NATs, TURN MUST be supported."

Two comments:  TURN is only necessary if both peers are behind NATs =
which perform endpoint-dependent mapping.  The "symmetric" term is =
overloaded and lacks precision, so I would really like it avoided.  I =
suggest:  "To deal with both peers being behind restrictive NATs, TURN =
MUST be supported."  Using a less-specific term like "restrictive" =
avoids a bunch of lengthy sentences of technical detail which aren't =
interesting, and this new wording explains that TURN is only needed when =
both endpoints are behind such restrictive NATs.

Section 2.2,
  "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN over
   TCP MUST be supported.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"

ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without a =
TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry has =
less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, and =
because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an =
*optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level =
requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that =
interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.

Section 2.2,
"   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS]],
      [RFC5766]."

Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is =
achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and =
draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should =
consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is =
really, really necessary.

Section 2.3,
  "RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of SCTP/DTLS and RTP
   over the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification
   [RFC5764], section 5.1.2."

Really, the requirement is more than than what DTLS-SRTP specifies, =
because it only specifies shows how STUN, DTLS, and SRTP packets are =
demultiplexed, whereas WebRTC endpoints have to handle those three =
protocols as well as SCTP.  Somewhere -- perhaps =
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports or elsewhere, a diagram of how the layering =
works would be useful.  Adapting the diagram from Section 5.1.2 of =
RFC5764, I believe incoming packet processing diagram looks like this:

           +----------------+
           | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP
	   |                |
      	   |	      	       |   +------------------+
	   |                |   | DTLS processing  |
	   |                |   |                  |
packet --> |  19 < B < 64  -+-->+ appl. protocol  -+--> SCTP
           |                |   |  	      	      |
      	   |  	      	    |   | other protocols -+--> DTLS
	   |                |   |                  |
	   |                |   +------------------+=09
           |                |
           |       B < 2   -+--> forward to STUN/ICE
           +----------------+

-d



>=20
>             Harald
>=20
>=20
> On 08/19/2013 07:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>  This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in =
WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>>=20
>> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
>> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>> 	Pages           : 6
>> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>    This document describes the data transport protocols used by =
RTCWEB,
>>    including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate =
boxes
>>    such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>>=20
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>=20
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
> wrote:
> Section 2.2,
> "   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS]],
>       [RFC5766]."
>
> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is
> achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and
> draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should consider
> if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really,
> really necessary.
>

It is useful to support TURN over TLS for two reasons:

1. To hide the remote party IP address in TURN allocations from anybody who
is monitoring the local IP connection
2. To traverse restrictive firewalls that only allow HTTP/HTTPS connections
by placing a TURNS server on port 443

I would think that for those two reasons TURN-TLS should be MUST implement.
_____________
Roman Shpount

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Dan Wing <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dwing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">dwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:harald=
@alvestrand.no">harald@alvestrand.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
Section 2.2,<br>
&quot; =A0 o =A0TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS=
]],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 [RFC5766].&quot;<br>
<br>
Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is achie=
ved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb-t=
urn-rest). =A0I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisf=
ies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really, really necessary.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It is useful to sup=
port TURN over TLS for two reasons:<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
>1. To hide the remote party IP address in TURN allocations from anybody wh=
o is monitoring the local IP connection<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">2. To traverse restrictive firewalls that =
only allow HTTP/HTTPS connections by placing a TURNS server on port 443<br>=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I would think that for those two reaso=
ns TURN-TLS should be MUST implement.<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div>_____________<br>Roman Shpount</div>
<br></div></div>

--001a11c38c8234236304e455aa15--

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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:02:25 -0700
Importance: Normal
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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Dan Wing said:
> Section 2.2=2C
>   "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic=2C TURN ove=
r
>    TCP MUST be supported.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>=20
> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP=2C without a =
TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry has le=
ss experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP=2C and becau=
se of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an *optimization*=
=2C I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level requirement=2C =
at least by my threshold for MUST which is that interoperability is harmed =
or interoperability is impossible.
[BA]  While ICE-TCP will only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in a fra=
ction of NAT usage cases=2C the benefits can be substantial in the situatio=
ns where it does work (and is needed).  The most popular uses of ICE-TCP so=
 far are for things like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP)=2C application sharing and RT=
P over TCP.  Given that WebRTC  could implement MSRP over the data channel=
=2C and could handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP=2C  the case probably =
needs to be made based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over TCP (probably in=
 a consumer scenario only=2C since for enterprise the TURN server would mos=
t likely be needed for firewall traversal reasons).  It's definitely not a =
MUST=2C and probably not a SHOULD either for WebRTC. =20
> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is ach=
ieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb=
-turn-rest).  I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisf=
ies the requirements=2C or if TURN over TLS is really=2C really necessary.
[BA] Not sure I follow this.   TURN over TLS provides confidentiality for t=
he relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits.  TURN REST is=
 trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN credenti=
als).  Personally=2C I don't think TURN REST really minimizes the risk to t=
he extent necessary=2C since time limiting the credentials alone won't nece=
ssarily stop an ingenious (and greedy) thief.  As an example=2C when hacker=
s gain control of a PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very short peri=
od of time=2C and even if TURN charges are minimal=2C you'd be surprised at=
 what Internet miscreants can do with stolen credentials within a 24 hour p=
eriod.  So to my mind=2C TURN REST needs some additional bolstering to limi=
t the potential financial liability=2C such as bandwidth limits.  		 	   		=
  =

--_b10acb0d-b3b6-4d64-9d0f-f1447bab1147_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'><div>Dan Wing said:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>&gt=3B Section 2.2=2C<br>&gt=3B   "In order to deal with firew=
alls that block all UDP traffic=2C TURN over<br>&gt=3B    TCP MUST be suppo=
rted.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B ICE-TCP allows=
 direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP=2C without a TURN server doin=
g TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry has less experience wi=
th ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP=2C and because of the less e=
xperience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an *optimization*=2C I would say =
ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level requirement=2C at least by my t=
hreshold for MUST which is that interoperability is harmed or interoperabil=
ity is impossible.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] &nbsp=3BWhile ICE-TCP will=
 only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in a fraction of NAT usage cases=
=2C the benefits can be substantial in the situations where it does work (a=
nd is needed). &nbsp=3BThe most popular uses of ICE-TCP so far are for thin=
gs like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP)=2C application sharing and RTP over TCP. &nbsp=
=3BGiven that WebRTC &nbsp=3Bcould implement MSRP over the data channel=2C =
and could handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP=2C &nbsp=3Bthe case probab=
ly needs to be made based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over TCP (probably=
 in a consumer scenario only=2C since for enterprise the TURN server would =
most likely be needed for firewall traversal reasons). &nbsp=3BIt's definit=
ely not a MUST=2C and probably not a SHOULD either for WebRTC. &nbsp=3B</di=
v><div><br></div><div>&gt=3B Most -- but not all -- of the security obtaine=
d with TURN over TLS is achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-r=
est and draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should c=
onsider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements=2C or if TURN over TLS is r=
eally=2C really necessary.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] Not sure I follow =
this. &nbsp=3B TURN over TLS provides confidentiality for the relay address=
es and also some firewall traversal benefits. &nbsp=3BTURN REST is trying t=
o solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN credentials). &nb=
sp=3BPersonally=2C I don't think TURN REST really minimizes the risk to the=
 extent necessary=2C since time limiting the credentials alone won't necess=
arily stop an ingenious (and greedy) thief. &nbsp=3BAs an example=2C when h=
ackers gain control of a PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very short=
 period of time=2C and even if TURN charges are minimal=2C you'd be surpris=
ed at what Internet miscreants can do with stolen credentials within a 24 h=
our period. &nbsp=3BSo to my mind=2C TURN REST needs some additional bolste=
ring to limit the potential financial liability=2C such as bandwidth limits=
.&nbsp=3B</div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_b10acb0d-b3b6-4d64-9d0f-f1447bab1147_--

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On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> =
wrote:

> Dan Wing said:
>=20
> > Section 2.2,
> > "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN =
over
> > TCP MUST be supported. (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
> >=20
> > ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without =
a TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking. I would say the industry =
has less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, =
and because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an =
*optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY. It can't be a MUST-level =
requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that =
interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.
>=20
> [BA]  While ICE-TCP will only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in =
a fraction of NAT usage cases, the benefits can be substantial in the =
situations where it does work (and is needed).  The most popular uses of =
ICE-TCP so far are for things like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP), application =
sharing and RTP over TCP.  Given that WebRTC  could implement MSRP over =
the data channel, and could handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP,  the =
case probably needs to be made based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over =
TCP (probably in a consumer scenario only, since for enterprise the TURN =
server would most likely be needed for firewall traversal reasons).  =
It's definitely not a MUST, and probably not a SHOULD either for WebRTC. =
=20
>=20
> > Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS =
is achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and =
draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest). I think the working group should =
consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is =
really, really necessary.
>=20
> [BA] Not sure I follow this.   TURN over TLS provides confidentiality =
for the relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits.  TURN =
REST is trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of =
TURN credentials). =20

TURN REST solves misuse of credentials and significantly reduces ability =
to do traffic analysis of the TURN client by someone sniffing between =
the TURN client and TURN server (username=3D"dwing" sent plaintext =
between the TURN client and TURN server).

> Personally, I don't think TURN REST really minimizes the risk to the =
extent necessary, since time limiting the credentials alone won't =
necessarily stop an ingenious (and greedy) thief.  As an example, when =
hackers gain control of a PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very =
short period of time, and even if TURN charges are minimal, you'd be =
surprised at what Internet miscreants can do with stolen credentials =
within a 24 hour period.  So to my mind, TURN REST needs some additional =
bolstering to limit the potential financial liability, such as bandwidth =
limits.=20

I expect something like a bandwidth limit is something that can be =
encoded into the TURN REST username that is coordinated between the =
WebRTC server and its cooperative TURN server.  It might be better to =
encode that properly, rather than by overloading bits of the username.  =
But perhaps a more elegant solution, rather than bandwidth limits, could =
be engineered.

-d


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> > Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest). I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS
> is really, really necessary.
> 
> [BA] Not sure I follow this.   TURN over TLS provides confidentiality for the relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits.  TURN REST is trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN credentials).  Personally, I don't think TURN REST
> really minimizes the risk to the extent necessary, since time limiting the credentials alone won't necessarily stop an ingenious (and greedy) thief.  As an example, when hackers gain control of a PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very short period of time, and
> even if TURN charges are minimal, you'd be surprised at what Internet miscreants can do with stolen credentials within a 24 hour period.  So to my mind, TURN REST needs some additional bolstering to limit the potential financial liability, such as bandwidth limits. 

Note that the 24 hours are something that is currently necessary because 
browsers don't implement updateIce yet (which would be used to add the 
TURN server and the time limited credentials). Once that is solved it is 
possible to to reduce the attackers window to a couple of seconds.
--683466026-614398362-1376981311=:8568--

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From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com>
To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "Dan Wing (dwing)" <dwing@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Roman Shpount
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:25 AM
To: Dan Wing (dwing)
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com<mailto:dwing@cis=
co.com>> wrote:

On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no<mailto=
:harald@alvestrand.no>> wrote:
Section 2.2,
"   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS]],
      [RFC5766]."

Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is achie=
ved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb-t=
urn-rest).  I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisfie=
s the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really, really necessary.

It is useful to support TURN over TLS for two reasons:
1. To hide the remote party IP address in TURN allocations from anybody who=
 is monitoring the local IP connection
[TR] To solve the problems explained in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-re=
ddy-behave-turn-auth-02, TURN over DTLS is discussed in BEHAVE WG which add=
resses problems related to privacy etc.

2. To traverse restrictive firewalls that only allow HTTP/HTTPS connections=
 by placing a TURNS server on port 443
[TR] But those restrictive firewall mostly also perform DPI.
--Tiru.
I would think that for those two reasons TURN-TLS should be MUST implement.
_____________
Roman Shpount


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<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roman Shpount<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dan Wing (dwing)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.tx=
t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Dan Wing &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dwing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">dwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:harald=
@alvestrand.no">harald@alvestrand.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
Section 2.2,<br>
&quot; &nbsp; o &nbsp;TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN ov=
er TLS]],<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [RFC5766].&quot;<br>
<br>
Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is achie=
ved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb-t=
urn-rest). &nbsp;I think the working group should consider if TURN REST sat=
isfies the requirements, or if TURN over
 TLS is really, really necessary.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">It is useful to suppo=
rt TURN over TLS for two reasons:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. To hide the remote party IP address in TURN alloc=
ations from anybody who is monitoring the local IP connection<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">[TR] To solve the problems explained in http://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-reddy-behave-turn-auth-02, TURN over DTLS is discussed in BEHA=
VE WG which addresses
 problems related to privacy etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">2. To traverse restri=
ctive firewalls that only allow HTTP/HTTPS connections by placing a TURNS s=
erver on port 443<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[TR] =
But those restrictive firewall mostly also perform DPI.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--Tir=
u.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would think that for those two reasons TURN-TLS sh=
ould be MUST implement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_____________<br>
Roman Shpount<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Tue Aug 20 00:25:40 2013
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On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:

>=20
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
>=20
>> As indicated in the -overview draft, it seemed logical to collect the =
information about the transport
>> profile for RTCWEB in a separate document.
>>=20
>> It is only 6 pages including all boilerplate, and has a couple of =
open issues that the WG needs to address.
>>=20
>> I'll emit an updated -overview shortly, with the corresponding =
appendix removed.
>>=20
>> Let the reviews begin!
>=20
> If per-*packet* DSCP setting is necessary (such as when bundling is =
used), both Section 2.1 and 2.2 should clarify that requirement.  For =
example FreeBSD's IPv4 stack didn't have that capability recently, per =
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3D165305.  I am sure many, =
many middleboxes don't have that capability (and might take action based =
on the first DSCP value they see, under the assumption that the 5-tuple =
flow will continue to use that same DSCP value).
Support for per-packet TOS/DSCP information to be received/sent was =
added in FreeBSD 8.4 and 9.1...

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> Section 2.2,
> "   In order to deal with symmetric NATs, TURN MUST be supported."
>=20
> Two comments:  TURN is only necessary if both peers are behind NATs =
which perform endpoint-dependent mapping.  The "symmetric" term is =
overloaded and lacks precision, so I would really like it avoided.  I =
suggest:  "To deal with both peers being behind restrictive NATs, TURN =
MUST be supported."  Using a less-specific term like "restrictive" =
avoids a bunch of lengthy sentences of technical detail which aren't =
interesting, and this new wording explains that TURN is only needed when =
both endpoints are behind such restrictive NATs.
>=20
> Section 2.2,
>  "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN =
over
>   TCP MUST be supported.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>=20
> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without a =
TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry has =
less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, and =
because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an =
*optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level =
requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that =
interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.
>=20
> Section 2.2,
> "   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS]],
>      [RFC5766]."
>=20
> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is =
achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and =
draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should =
consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is =
really, really necessary.
>=20
> Section 2.3,
>  "RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of SCTP/DTLS and =
RTP
>   over the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification
>   [RFC5764], section 5.1.2."
>=20
> Really, the requirement is more than than what DTLS-SRTP specifies, =
because it only specifies shows how STUN, DTLS, and SRTP packets are =
demultiplexed, whereas WebRTC endpoints have to handle those three =
protocols as well as SCTP.  Somewhere -- perhaps =
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports or elsewhere, a diagram of how the layering =
works would be useful.  Adapting the diagram from Section 5.1.2 of =
RFC5764, I believe incoming packet processing diagram looks like this:
>=20
>           +----------------+
>           | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP
> 	   |                |
>      	   |	      	       |   +------------------+
> 	   |                |   | DTLS processing  |
> 	   |                |   |                  |
> packet --> |  19 < B < 64  -+-->+ appl. protocol  -+--> SCTP
>           |                |   |  	      	      |
>      	   |  	      	    |   | other protocols -+--> DTLS
> 	   |                |   |                  |
> 	   |                |   +------------------+=09
>           |                |
>           |       B < 2   -+--> forward to STUN/ICE
>           +----------------+
>=20
> -d
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>            Harald
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 08/19/2013 07:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in =
WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>>>=20
>>> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
>>> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 6
>>> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>   This document describes the data transport protocols used by =
RTCWEB,
>>>   including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate =
boxes
>>>   such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>>>=20
>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>=20
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20


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To: "Dan Wing (dwing)" <dwing@cisco.com>, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Dan Wing (dwing)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:46 AM
> To: Bernard Aboba
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> w=
rote:
>=20
> > Dan Wing said:
> >
> > > Section 2.2,
> > > "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN ove=
r
> > > TCP MUST be supported. (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
> > >
> > > ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without =
a
> TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking. I would say the industry has l=
ess
> experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, and because =
of
> the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an *optimization*, I =
would
> say ICE-TCP is a MAY. It can't be a MUST-level requirement, at least by m=
y
> threshold for MUST which is that interoperability is harmed or
> interoperability is impossible.
> >
> > [BA]  While ICE-TCP will only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in a
> fraction of NAT usage cases, the benefits can be substantial in the situa=
tions
> where it does work (and is needed).  The most popular uses of ICE-TCP so =
far
> are for things like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP), application sharing and RTP ove=
r
> TCP.  Given that WebRTC  could implement MSRP over the data channel, and =
could
> handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP,  the case probably needs to be ma=
de
> based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over TCP (probably in a consumer sce=
nario
> only, since for enterprise the TURN server would most likely be needed fo=
r
> firewall traversal reasons).  It's definitely not a MUST, and probably no=
t a
> SHOULD either for WebRTC.
> >
> > > Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is
> achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-
> rtcweb-turn-rest). I think the working group should consider if TURN REST
> satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really, really necessa=
ry.
> >
> > [BA] Not sure I follow this.   TURN over TLS provides confidentiality f=
or
> the relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits.  TURN REST=
 is
> trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN
> credentials).
>=20
> TURN REST solves misuse of credentials and significantly reduces ability =
to do
> traffic analysis of the TURN client by someone sniffing between the TURN
> client and TURN server (username=3D"dwing" sent plaintext between the TUR=
N
> client and TURN server).

TURN REST resolves the problem of third party authorization but does not ad=
dress other problems like TURN server deployed in Enterprise for auditing p=
urpose (which requires first party authentication - username needs to sent =
over TURN over TLS).

--Tiru.

>=20
> > Personally, I don't think TURN REST really minimizes the risk to the ex=
tent
> necessary, since time limiting the credentials alone won't necessarily st=
op an
> ingenious (and greedy) thief.  As an example, when hackers gain control o=
f a
> PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very short period of time, and ev=
en if
> TURN charges are minimal, you'd be surprised at what Internet miscreants =
can
> do with stolen credentials within a 24 hour period.  So to my mind, TURN =
REST
> needs some additional bolstering to limit the potential financial liabili=
ty,
> such as bandwidth limits.
>=20
> I expect something like a bandwidth limit is something that can be encode=
d
> into the TURN REST username that is coordinated between the WebRTC server=
 and
> its cooperative TURN server.  It might be better to encode that properly,
> rather than by overloading bits of the username.  But perhaps a more eleg=
ant
> solution, rather than bandwidth limits, could be engineered.
>=20
> -d
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "Dan Wing (dwing)" <dwing@cisco.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Bernard Aboba
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:32 AM
To: Dan Wing (dwing); Harald Alvestrand
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt

Dan Wing said:

> Section 2.2,
> "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN over
> TCP MUST be supported. (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>=20
> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without a TU=
RN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking. I would say the industry has less =
experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, and because of=
 the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an *optimization*, I w=
ould say ICE-TCP is a MAY. It can't be a MUST-level requirement, at least b=
y my threshold for MUST which is that interoperability is harmed or interop=
erability is impossible.

[BA] =A0While ICE-TCP will only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in a f=
raction of NAT usage cases, the benefits can be substantial in the situatio=
ns where it does work (and is needed). =A0The most popular uses of ICE-TCP =
so far are for things like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP), application sharing and RT=
P over TCP. =A0Given that WebRTC =A0could implement MSRP over the data chan=
nel, and could handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP, =A0the case probably=
 needs to be made based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over TCP (probably i=
n a consumer scenario only, since for enterprise the TURN server would most=
 likely be needed for firewall traversal reasons). =A0

[TR] Firewall traversal problems in Enterprise can also be resolved by usin=
g PCP-controlled Firewall without the need for TURN server and is discussed=
 in sections 3.1, 3.2 of draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-penno-rtcwe=
b-pcp-00=20

--Tiru.

It's definitely not a MUST, and probably not a SHOULD either for WebRTC. =
=A0

> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is ach=
ieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb=
-turn-rest). I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisfi=
es the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really, really necessary.

[BA] Not sure I follow this. =A0 TURN over TLS provides confidentiality for=
 the relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits. =A0TURN RES=
T is trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN cred=
entials). =A0Personally, I don't think TURN REST really minimizes the risk =
to the extent necessary, since time limiting the credentials alone won't ne=
cessarily stop an ingenious (and greedy) thief. =A0As an example, when hack=
ers gain control of a PBX they can run up shocking bills in a very short pe=
riod of time, and even if TURN charges are minimal, you'd be surprised at w=
hat Internet miscreants can do with stolen credentials within a 24 hour per=
iod. =A0So to my mind, TURN REST needs some additional bolstering to limit =
the potential financial liability, such as bandwidth limits.=A0

From harald@alvestrand.no  Tue Aug 20 03:43:22 2013
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On 08/20/2013 08:16 AM, Dan Wing wrote:
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dan Wing said:
>>
>>> Section 2.2,
>>> "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN over
>>> TCP MUST be supported. (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>>>
>>> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without a TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking. I would say the industry has less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, and because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an *optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY. It can't be a MUST-level requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.
>> [BA]  While ICE-TCP will only eliminate the need for TURN over TCP in a fraction of NAT usage cases, the benefits can be substantial in the situations where it does work (and is needed).  The most popular uses of ICE-TCP so far are for things like P2P chat (e.g. MSRP), application sharing and RTP over TCP.  Given that WebRTC  could implement MSRP over the data channel, and could handle screen sharing via RTP over UDP,  the case probably needs to be made based on TURN-less conveyance of RTP over TCP (probably in a consumer scenario only, since for enterprise the TURN server would most likely be needed for firewall traversal reasons).  It's definitely not a MUST, and probably not a SHOULD either for WebRTC.
>>
>>> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest). I think the working group should consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is really, really necessary.
>> [BA] Not sure I follow this.   TURN over TLS provides confidentiality for the relay addresses and also some firewall traversal benefits.  TURN REST is trying to solve a different problem entirely (e.g. misuse of TURN credentials).
> TURN REST solves misuse of credentials and significantly reduces ability to do traffic analysis of the TURN client by someone sniffing between the TURN client and TURN server (username="dwing" sent plaintext between the TURN client and TURN server).

Perhaps the -security- drafts might contain a recommendation that 
usernames for use in TURN authentications should be anonymous, 
single/limited use?

I don't want to have the RTCWEB transport stack depend on a specific 
username allocation mechanism like draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest, but a 
generic recommendation to not give traceable tokens in TURN 
authentication might be a good idea.


From dwing@cisco.com  Tue Aug 20 08:28:11 2013
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From: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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To: Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:25 AM, Michael Tuexen =
<Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:

>=20
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> As indicated in the -overview draft, it seemed logical to collect =
the information about the transport
>>> profile for RTCWEB in a separate document.
>>>=20
>>> It is only 6 pages including all boilerplate, and has a couple of =
open issues that the WG needs to address.
>>>=20
>>> I'll emit an updated -overview shortly, with the corresponding =
appendix removed.
>>>=20
>>> Let the reviews begin!
>>=20
>> If per-*packet* DSCP setting is necessary (such as when bundling is =
used), both Section 2.1 and 2.2 should clarify that requirement.  For =
example FreeBSD's IPv4 stack didn't have that capability recently, per =
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3D165305.  I am sure many, =
many middleboxes don't have that capability (and might take action based =
on the first DSCP value they see, under the assumption that the 5-tuple =
flow will continue to use that same DSCP value).
> Support for per-packet TOS/DSCP information to be received/sent was =
added in FreeBSD 8.4 and 9.1...

Yes, that is what the URL I cited says.  But more important than =
celebrating that FreeBSD was recently updated to get this capability is =
that the I-D document this as a requirement of the underlying OS.

-d


>=20
> Best regards
> Michael
>>=20
>> Section 2.2,
>> "   In order to deal with symmetric NATs, TURN MUST be supported."
>>=20
>> Two comments:  TURN is only necessary if both peers are behind NATs =
which perform endpoint-dependent mapping.  The "symmetric" term is =
overloaded and lacks precision, so I would really like it avoided.  I =
suggest:  "To deal with both peers being behind restrictive NATs, TURN =
MUST be supported."  Using a less-specific term like "restrictive" =
avoids a bunch of lengthy sentences of technical detail which aren't =
interesting, and this new wording explains that TURN is only needed when =
both endpoints are behind such restrictive NATs.
>>=20
>> Section 2.2,
>> "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN =
over
>>  TCP MUST be supported.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>>=20
>> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without =
a TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry =
has less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, =
and because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an =
*optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level =
requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that =
interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.
>>=20
>> Section 2.2,
>> "   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over TLS]],
>>     [RFC5766]."
>>=20
>> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS is =
achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and =
draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should =
consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is =
really, really necessary.
>>=20
>> Section 2.3,
>> "RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of SCTP/DTLS and =
RTP
>>  over the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification
>>  [RFC5764], section 5.1.2."
>>=20
>> Really, the requirement is more than than what DTLS-SRTP specifies, =
because it only specifies shows how STUN, DTLS, and SRTP packets are =
demultiplexed, whereas WebRTC endpoints have to handle those three =
protocols as well as SCTP.  Somewhere -- perhaps =
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports or elsewhere, a diagram of how the layering =
works would be useful.  Adapting the diagram from Section 5.1.2 of =
RFC5764, I believe incoming packet processing diagram looks like this:
>>=20
>>          +----------------+
>>          | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP
>> 	   |                |
>>     	   |	      	       |   +------------------+
>> 	   |                |   | DTLS processing  |
>> 	   |                |   |                  |
>> packet --> |  19 < B < 64  -+-->+ appl. protocol  -+--> SCTP
>>          |                |   |  	      	      |
>>     	   |  	      	    |   | other protocols -+--> DTLS
>> 	   |                |   |                  |
>> 	   |                |   +------------------+=09
>>          |                |
>>          |       B < 2   -+--> forward to STUN/ICE
>>          +----------------+
>>=20
>> -d
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>           Harald
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 08/19/2013 07:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in =
WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>=20
>>>> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
>>>> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>>> 	Pages           : 6
>>>> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>  This document describes the data transport protocols used by =
RTCWEB,
>>>>  including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate =
boxes
>>>>  such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>>>>=20
>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>=20
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>=20
>=20


From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Tue Aug 20 09:28:55 2013
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To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:27 PM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:

>=20
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:25 AM, Michael Tuexen =
<Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Harald Alvestrand =
<harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> As indicated in the -overview draft, it seemed logical to collect =
the information about the transport
>>>> profile for RTCWEB in a separate document.
>>>>=20
>>>> It is only 6 pages including all boilerplate, and has a couple of =
open issues that the WG needs to address.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll emit an updated -overview shortly, with the corresponding =
appendix removed.
>>>>=20
>>>> Let the reviews begin!
>>>=20
>>> If per-*packet* DSCP setting is necessary (such as when bundling is =
used), both Section 2.1 and 2.2 should clarify that requirement.  For =
example FreeBSD's IPv4 stack didn't have that capability recently, per =
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3D165305.  I am sure many, =
many middleboxes don't have that capability (and might take action based =
on the first DSCP value they see, under the assumption that the 5-tuple =
flow will continue to use that same DSCP value).
>> Support for per-packet TOS/DSCP information to be received/sent was =
added in FreeBSD 8.4 and 9.1...
>=20
> Yes, that is what the URL I cited says.  But more important than =
celebrating that FreeBSD was recently updated to get this capability is =
that the I-D document this as a requirement of the underlying OS.
Understood. Guess why it appeared in FreeBSD... Just wanted to make =
clear that it
us supported at least now. I missed the statement in the PR that it made =
it into 8.4...

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> -d
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Michael
>>>=20
>>> Section 2.2,
>>> "   In order to deal with symmetric NATs, TURN MUST be supported."
>>>=20
>>> Two comments:  TURN is only necessary if both peers are behind NATs =
which perform endpoint-dependent mapping.  The "symmetric" term is =
overloaded and lacks precision, so I would really like it avoided.  I =
suggest:  "To deal with both peers being behind restrictive NATs, TURN =
MUST be supported."  Using a less-specific term like "restrictive" =
avoids a bunch of lengthy sentences of technical detail which aren't =
interesting, and this new wording explains that TURN is only needed when =
both endpoints are behind such restrictive NATs.
>>>=20
>>> Section 2.2,
>>> "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN =
over
>>> TCP MUST be supported.  (QUESTION: What about ICE-TCP?)"
>>>=20
>>> ICE-TCP allows direct peer-to-peer communications using TCP, without =
a TURN server doing TCP-to-UDP interworking.  I would say the industry =
has less experience with ICE-TCP than with ICE or with TURN-over-TCP, =
and because of the less experience and because ICE-TCP is arguably an =
*optimization*, I would say ICE-TCP is a MAY.  It can't be a MUST-level =
requirement, at least by my threshold for MUST which is that =
interoperability is harmed or interoperability is impossible.
>>>=20
>>> Section 2.2,
>>> "   o  TURN, including TURN over TCP [[QUESTION: and TURN over =
TLS]],
>>>    [RFC5766]."
>>>=20
>>> Most -- but not all -- of the security obtained with TURN over TLS =
is achieved with TURN REST (draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest and =
draft-uberti-rtcweb-turn-rest).  I think the working group should =
consider if TURN REST satisfies the requirements, or if TURN over TLS is =
really, really necessary.
>>>=20
>>> Section 2.3,
>>> "RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of SCTP/DTLS and =
RTP
>>> over the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification
>>> [RFC5764], section 5.1.2."
>>>=20
>>> Really, the requirement is more than than what DTLS-SRTP specifies, =
because it only specifies shows how STUN, DTLS, and SRTP packets are =
demultiplexed, whereas WebRTC endpoints have to handle those three =
protocols as well as SCTP.  Somewhere -- perhaps =
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports or elsewhere, a diagram of how the layering =
works would be useful.  Adapting the diagram from Section 5.1.2 of =
RFC5764, I believe incoming packet processing diagram looks like this:
>>>=20
>>>         +----------------+
>>>         | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP
>>> 	   |                |
>>>    	   |	      	       |   +------------------+
>>> 	   |                |   | DTLS processing  |
>>> 	   |                |   |                  |
>>> packet --> |  19 < B < 64  -+-->+ appl. protocol  -+--> SCTP
>>>         |                |   |  	      	      |
>>>    	   |  	      	    |   | other protocols -+--> DTLS
>>> 	   |                |   |                  |
>>> 	   |                |   +------------------+=09
>>>         |                |
>>>         |       B < 2   -+--> forward to STUN/ICE
>>>         +----------------+
>>>=20
>>> -d
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>          Harald
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 08/19/2013 07:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in =
WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
>>>>> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
>>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>>>> 	Pages           : 6
>>>>> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>> This document describes the data transport protocols used by =
RTCWEB,
>>>>> including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate =
boxes
>>>>> such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


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Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the c=
ase of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 ass=
uming we can get this adopted.

Regards
Andy



> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 19 August 2013 18:15
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-
> browsers Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
> 	Title           : Transports for RTCWEB
> 	Author(s)       : Harald Alvestrand
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 6
> 	Date            : 2013-08-19
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB,
>    including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes
>    such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Tue Aug 20 14:44:32 2013
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
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--_20744e59-5bc3-4934-a723-9de1975a43ea_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the various=
 traversal scenarios=2C which helps inform the discussion of what should or=
 should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the r=
ecommendations as follows:=20

5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers=0A=
=0A=
   For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a=0A=
   browser needs to be able to=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via UDP=2C TCP and TLS=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect=0A=
      method=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of=0A=
      the default STUN ports 3478/5349=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to=0A=
      use TLS=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done=0A=
      for HTTP=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the=0A=
      TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media=0A=
      streams or data channels=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a=0A=
      local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the=0A=
      internet=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the=0A=
      RTCWEB peer.

> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org=3B harald@alvestrand.no
> Date: Tue=2C 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>=20
> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the=
 case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 a=
ssuming we can get this adopted.
>=20
> Regards
> Andy

 		 	   		  =

--_20744e59-5bc3-4934-a723-9de1975a43ea_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>The NAT/Firewall considerations =
document does go into detail on the various traversal scenarios=2C which he=
lps inform the discussion of what should or should not be supported in term=
s of transport.&nbsp=3B Section 5 summarizes the recommendations as follows=
: <br><br><pre class=3D"newpage"><span class=3D"h2"><h2><a class=3D"selflin=
k" name=3D"section-5" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcwe=
b-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5">5</a>.  Requirements for RTCWEB=
-enabled browsers</h2></span>=0A=
=0A=
   For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a=0A=
   browser needs to be able to=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via UDP=2C TCP and TLS=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect=0A=
      method=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of=0A=
      the default STUN ports 3478/5349=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to=0A=
      use TLS=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done=0A=
      for HTTP=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the=0A=
      TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media=0A=
      streams or data channels=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a=0A=
      local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the=0A=
      internet=2C=0A=
=0A=
   o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the=0A=
      RTCWEB peer.</pre><br><br><div>&gt=3B From: andrew.hutton@siemens-ent=
erprise.com<br>&gt=3B To: rtcweb@ietf.org=3B harald@alvestrand.no<br>&gt=3B=
 Date: Tue=2C 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>&gt=3B Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-=
D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Section =
2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the case of u=
sing a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 assuming we=
 can get this adopted.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Regards<br>&gt=3B Andy<br><br><=
/div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_20744e59-5bc3-4934-a723-9de1975a43ea_--

From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Thu Aug 22 03:03:06 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
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With regard to the following entry in the minutes.

"Andy Hutton:  Need to complete use cases and requirements.  My understandi=
ng is that the entire WG can't be done until we have met the requirements. =
 Don't disagree with the 70 percent estimate.=20
Cullen:  The WG doesn't need to meet its requirements, it needs to decide w=
hich ones it will meet and when."=20

This does not fully reflect the point I made which was that the requirement=
s document needs to be completed and then we can review how complete we are=
 against the requirements. If there are requirements that are not to be add=
ressed at this point then this should be a decision made by the working gro=
up.

I also stated that I believe http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb=
-nat-firewall-considerations should be on the list of RTCWeb related drafts=
. This is because it is currently the only draft that addresses the firewal=
l related requirements in the use case and requirements drafts.

Regards
Andy



From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Ted Hardie
Sent: 14 August 2013 19:55
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87

We're splitting up the minutes review for the two different days of the las=
t IETF meeting.=A0 Please review and send corrections to the list.=A0 Many =
thanks to Bernard Aboba and Suhas Nandakumar for their excellent notes.

regards,

Ted

From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de  Thu Aug 22 08:52:11 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Opening unordered data channel issue
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Dear all,

at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem
to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
is solved.

The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
of the alternatives. So here are the two options:

(a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
(b) Use a new ACK message.

Arguments:
* Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
  However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
* Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
  data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits
  of unordered delivery.

We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
You can send user data right after opening the data channel.

For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
that we use the same handshake for all data channels.

So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
   It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
   is ordered or not.
3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
   in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
   the opener will sent user messages unordered,
   if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
   data channel is ordered.

Any opinions?

Best regards
Michael


From juberti@google.com  Thu Aug 22 10:13:02 2013
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:12:38 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Opening unordered data channel issue
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I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake
2-way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the
previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent
immediately without waiting for the ACK.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Michael Tuexen <
Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
> unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem
> to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
> receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
> of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
> the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
> until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
> has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
> is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
> is solved.
>
> The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
> two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
> Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
> of the alternatives. So here are the two options:
>
> (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
> (b) Use a new ACK message.
>
> Arguments:
> * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
>   However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
> * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
>   data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits
>   of unordered delivery.
>
> We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
> cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
> similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
> any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
> You can send user data right after opening the data channel.
>
> For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
> for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
> that we use the same handshake for all data channels.
>
> So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
> 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
> 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
>    It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
>    is ordered or not.
> 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
>    in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
> 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
>    the opener will sent user messages unordered,
>    if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
>    data channel is ordered.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Best regards
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--001a11c3235ad3f72904e48c66c4
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes t=
he handshake 2-way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that aff=
ected the previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent=
 immediately without waiting for the ACK.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 2=
2, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Michael Tuexen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.f=
ranken.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear all,<br>
<br>
at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of<br>
unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem<br>
to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the<br>
receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result<br>
of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that<br>
the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)<br>
until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN<br>
has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message<br>
is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem<br>
is solved.<br>
<br>
The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were<br>
two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall<br>
Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons<br>
of the alternatives. So here are the two options:<br>
<br>
(a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.<br>
(b) Use a new ACK message.<br>
<br>
Arguments:<br>
* Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.<br>
=C2=A0 However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.<=
br>
* Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of<br>
=C2=A0 data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefit=
s<br>
=C2=A0 of unordered delivery.<br>
<br>
We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the<br>
cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not<br>
similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain<br>
any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.<br>
You can send user data right after opening the data channel.<br>
<br>
For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake<br>
for ordered channels. It doesn&#39;t have any drawback and would mean<br>
that we use the same handshake for all data channels.<br>
<br>
So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:<br>
1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.<br>
2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data cha=
nnel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is ordered or not.<br>
3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.<br>
4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the opener will sent user messages unordered,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data channel is ordered.<br>
<br>
Any opinions?<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c3235ad3f72904e48c66c4--

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft Minutes from RTCWEB day 1, Aug 1 2013 Berlin IETF 87
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We're splitting up the minutes review for the two different days of the las=
t IETF meeting.  Please review and send corrections to the list.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Draft Minutes from RTCWEB session 1, Aug 1 2013 Berlin IETF 87


Conclusions:


The meeting decided that the WG guidance would be that browsers MUST NOT su=
pport SDES. Note this does not change the previous decision that browsers M=
UST support DTLS-SRTP.=20


Expect an update of  the JSEP draft around Sept 15.



Thank you for minutes to Jon Peterson and Ben Campbell for taking minutes. =
=20






Raw Notes Bellow.=20


Ted: intro

Ted: noting that we need to follow the recent consensus of MMUSIC on bundle


<> SDES

Hadriel

H has a joke - support legacy currency DM vs EU

H sets out arguing for SDES for MTI - noting DTLS-SRTP is already MTI, but =
will only be used "much of the time" - can the browser support SDES in the =
API known as SDP=20

H has another joke - E Berlin is RTCWeb, W Berlin is SIP

H argues that SIP gives you the latitude to choose your own security soluti=
on. Argues SDES reduces media clipping because it negotiates faster. Skepti=
cal of e2e SIP-RTCWeb deployment, due to RTCWeb features, and thus you coul=
d do do different things on different sides of a gateway. SDES "trivial to =
implement," widely implemented.

Notes that for eavesdropping, interworking gateways do indeed see and log k=
eys. Argues there's little to be done to defeat NSA or similar adversaries.=
 DTLS-SRTP has the same properties.

Regarding PFS, DTLS-SRTP has similar properties he argues as SDES as well.

On downgrade, "if you're talking to a malicious web server, you're doomed."=
 Evil web server can insert itself as a DTLS-SRTP MITM as well.

Argues that DTLS-SRTP is also verifiably secure e2e - in part due to lack o=
f IdP, and even with IdP, you only know up to the endpoint, not beyond. SDE=
S is thus perhaps more honest, because there's no such guarantee in place.=
=20

If we're wrong, we can remove and deprecate SDES. Web browsers upgrade very=
, very fast if we need to back something out. However, even if we update br=
owsers, the services don't have the same agility.=20

What do operators care about? Argues that native apps are more important th=
an browsers for this, that people won't spawn a browser to receive calls. H=
e suggests native apps based on a web framework as a compromise to support =
SDES, to interop with existing VoIP devices, prevent clipping and reduce ov=
erhead.

Martin

M is wearing "Comment 22" jacket, receives much laughs

M speaking in favor of SDES, even though in an ideal world he'd rather use =
DTLS-SRTP. His app needs SDES.

M shows ICE use cases that can't support DTLS-SRTP.  Various intermediaries=
 and conference scenarios. For example, crypto overload with an audio mixer=
 on a conference box, For many of these cases, either SDES or EKT will work=
 though. Notes that EKT is current undeployed and unrealistic,

Would rather not have crypto in his app for plausible deniability, would ra=
ther just forward packets as a service. No keys and media in the same place=
 =3D good (maybe).

M somewhat hedges on the early media clipping - different modes have differ=
ent results.

Shows some good reasons to use DTLS-SRTP, but notes however that they haven=
't been so successful in SIP deployments. Shows what will happen if we depl=
oy IdPs and what the benefits would be, and at what cost. If any piece of t=
he puzzling is missing, then you end up with about the same properties as S=
DES. How can we guarantee all of the steps needed for DTLS-SRTP to be secur=
e will prevail in practice? Credential management a big question here.

EKR

(wrong presentation is put up on screen, bad chairs no cookie)

E believes everyone agrees on the facts - in SDES, server has access to the=
 keys, and thus with passive access to the media, they can recover the cont=
ent. E says not so with DTLS-SRTP, they can only launch an MITM attack. Wit=
h IdP, you can detect attack by signaling server.

Shows a gmail slide for auditing your connection history, to suggest that y=
ou could do the same for RTCWeb.

Note that the passive attack enabled by SDES can be mounted retrospectively=
, based on captured media and logs. Speaks anecdotally to recent legal conc=
epts of interception. SDES attack is impossible to detect, because its pass=
ive, but he argues that there's in principle ways to detect server attacks =
with DTLS-SRTP, though not easy. Easy to "accidentally" mount a passive att=
ack due to incompetence, active attacks not=20

Argues that the performance numbers are not as bad as people are representi=
ng - in computation or in network transit time. Argues that clipping is a n=
on-issue, there could be 1 RTT of difference but no more, especially compar=
ed to the ICE overhead. Alludes to a new mode of DTLS-SRTP with less latenc=
y for people you've talked to before, new work in TLS WG. Argues post-dial =
delay is much longer for other reasons.

Backwards compatibility - notes that the vast majority of RTP traffic isn't=
 SRTP, so backwards compatibly already has to bite that bullet - need a gat=
eway.

Is re-encryption a big deal? At a gateway or a conference bridge or what ha=
ve you? Codecs unsupported in the native SIP world anyway, so you need some=
 kind of transcoding. Number of extent RTCWeb MCUs low enough that we could=
 get EKT done in time for then, he argues.

E argues that everyone agrees DTLS-SRTP is better, and if we don't prevent =
SDES, people will use. Don't give them a "foot gun" to shoot themselves in =
the foot. Incompetence is the first problem.

Malice is the second problem, E says. There will be a trivial bid down. Can=
't distinguish people trying to monitor you from the people who are just la=
zy.

E wonders if people will inspect the JS to see what's going on. Talks about=
 recent surveillance disclosures and the way that SDES would enable these p=
assive, historical attacks.

E summarizes that DTLS is either somewhat better or a whole lot better. Leg=
acy systems where SDES makes things "somewhat" easier will only get more ra=
re and better performing as time goes on.=20

E argues that browsers MUST NOT implement SDES - however caveats that gatew=
ays do SDES.

EKR concludes.

Cullen asks for clarifying questions first on the presentations, factual ch=
allenges etc.

Ted asks that we focus on the question "what role (if any) should SDES play=
 in RTCWeb"? Don't get caught up in nits.

H opens with a joke (JYIS). Says that if the JS has access to the raw media=
, thus you are screwed.  Asks if multiple calls to the same person going th=
rough different gateways would throw a sec exception.

E responds "nah".

H says DTLS-SRTP doesn't give you the property of knowing you're talking to=
 the same person with IdP.

M says the performance argument is a straw man. Unclear what he thinks the =
performance analysis should be. Agrees with Langley's analysis. Agrees cost=
 isn't much in terms of CPU usage, that it's irrelevant.=20

Dan Druta - says presos has misleading information about what browsers are.=
 Distinguishes between  browser and a runtime. Is it a web runtime or not? =
(Ted asks for clarification) Druta says W3C looks at a different set of use=
 cases for web-based OSs, and that we should remember the distinction.

Justin Uberti -  Notes relative maturity of the two different approaches. B=
izarre bug reports about people who can't get DTLS-SRTP to work. Presumptio=
n to say that DTLS-SRTP is just "better." For some it will mean more work. =
Consider chromecast or similar non person-to-person communications. ("what?=
" from the crowd). Argues DTLS-SRTP not mature.

Bernard Aboba - Doesn't buy clipping at all. Will clip in both scenarios. D=
ifference unimportant. Performance arguments also irrelevant, except the la=
rge conference case. Can't evaluate SDES alone for that without considering=
 EKT. Wants to make the EKT decision before we rule for or against SDES.

Richard Ejzak - Not buying passive attack scenario. Says you need to break =
link-layer TLS to discover the keys - shouted down by the room, asked to ta=
ke it offline.

Moe (?) - Threat analysis needed to distinguish EKT from SDES in this conte=
xt. E asks to respond. E says the threat properties of EKT are substantiall=
y better. Need to control the endpoint to use EKT, so can't be launched by =
the server. Moe replies SDES folks would be happier if there was more of a =
story about large conf servers in terms of computational complexity. 1000 D=
H / millisecond.

Steve Kent - Presos and mic seemed to say the significant issue is security=
, not performance. Argues E's sec analysis is much better, that passive att=
acks are much much easier.

Joe Hildebrand - Argues he has large conf server application, WebEx. Needs =
access to plaintext for mixing, so needs to do the crypto ops. Doesn't care=
 if it's a little computationally expensive, his hardware is cheap. Would r=
ather have less ways of doing things, more complexity etc is a concern for =
him much larger than performance. DTLS is fine for him, and he interoperate=
s with a lot of Cisco phones.

(missed name) - This would be a lot easier if we had perfect foreknowledge.=
 Says that because RTP is basically unencrypted today, we can use that to p=
redict that SDES would be used if allowed for RTCWeb. SDES a "moral hazard"=
, easy to get out and get working. Don't allow it. EKT will cover places wh=
ere people say SDES is needed today. Preserves intention for making SRTP ma=
ndatory.

(Ted says be brief)

H - Agrees with previous speaker. Marketing issue, even. For browsers, we s=
hould mandate DTLS-SRTP - just not for native apps that use a web framework=
. Argues that performance problems are real, and that clipping is real. (cr=
owd grumbles) Hadriel says security is "fud bullshit" but that we should ma=
ke a decision today.

Hannes Tschofenig - Surprised by cynicism of discussion. Concerned about gl=
obal surveillance. "My view is no SDES."

M - Some FUD in both directions. Malice v. incompetence. Says that the APIs=
 themselves have to do the work to get the properties we're talking about. =
The incompetence line of reasoning is thus specious. If people are gatewayi=
ng, you have to trust the site anyway. Requires competence on web developer=
 part.

E - reference Plato. Question of developer incompetence. Talks again about =
what the passive attack is that incompetence at the server enables. Concern=
ed about clipping. Addresses wide range of issues: PFS, the nature of the M=
oz stack, etc.

Relaying jabber room - Someone says they disagree with Justin - hard part w=
as SDP, not DTLS.

Jeremy Fuller - People "want the best," invokes the IPv6 example of somethi=
ng that gets rammed down your throat by a standards body. Suggests users sh=
ould have a choice between what standards bodies wish was real, versus what=
 is actually real. Who here is using secure tunneling to browse the web? (m=
any hands go up, and laughs) Argues to give users a choice.

Sam Hartman - familiar with SIP, understands issues. When you use DTLS-SRTP=
 and mandate it, but don't permit SDES, you increase the work of a passive =
adversary. Even if developers are incompetent, etc, even if we're not using=
 an IdP, etc, this will help. Sure, adversaries could recover keys form log=
ging gateways, etc, but in other cases it causes adversaries to do more wor=
k. Don't support SDES, not for browsers.

Justin Uberti - Chrome can show DTLS is actually being used. Says they woul=
dn't give the same indication for SDES. Sees no security distinction betwee=
n web browsers and runtimes. Calls RTCweb a "byzantine cathedral". EKT won'=
t save us, though, he says.

Dan Wing - Status of EKT. "not updated for a while". Why did Cisco build EK=
T? For telepresence. This has a similar problem, don't want to do crypto in=
 the MCU. They don't. EKT makes this work, with DTLS-SRTP. He is a co-autho=
r of SDES, and says, "please don't use it." We need DTLS-SRTP.

Alissa Cooper - On paranoia. There is a norm, and clearly this norm is viol=
ated for voice calling if you can passively attack media, and give a secure=
 indication. Needs a=20

(Kariani? Verizon) - Looking at mobile cases with RTCWeb and "standard" cli=
ents at once. Concerned about interworking between DTLS and SDES. Need to t=
ake some action to take mobile devices into account with "managed secure ac=
cess." Doesn't want gateways long term.

(me at mic - no on SDES)

Hadriel - we don't have protection from collecting the media when there's g=
atewaying going on, "emperor has no clothes." We can't have a flag or somet=
hing for SDES that users can "turn off" or what have you. If you control th=
e app yourself, then you have more powers. But for RTCWeb, stick with DTLS-=
SRTP.

Sean Turner-  speaking as Sec AD. Wants to pick one. He doesn't want the be=
st, wants better. Threatens discusses, given that Dan Wing disowns this and=
 the passive attacker properties. "We're watching!" (laughs from crowd at i=
rony)

(Roberto? missed name) - people choose convenience over everything else. if=
 you give them choice, it's a choice between convenience and something else=
, and people will never choose something else. Pick security every time.

Russ Housley - Appalled by "k=3D" in SDP back in 2003. Violates principle o=
f least privilege.  Let's not do it again.

(Matt?) - Says that in enterprise there are huge numbers of SDES devices ou=
t there, concerned about backwards compatibility. Doesn't want MUST NOT use=
 SDES, but won't argue for MUST use it.

E - To Hadriel's point, gateways are not the only use case. RTCWeb is not a=
lways intermediated. If anyone doing Web-to-web calling can ever get anythi=
ng other than DTLS-SRTP, that's unacceptable. Only way to prevent it is to =
ban SDES.

Wendy Selzer - Also concerned about passive attackers, says lets give end u=
sers the tools to prevent this form the start.=20

(Ted recuses himself)

Cullen begins to take hums. Does the decision apply to web browsers, runtim=
es, native apps, etc. This WG is scoped around the input to webrtc in the w=
3c - thus applies to browsers and other entities that use the same technolo=
gy. This is not saying that SIP phones can't use SDES anymore. Not at a poi=
nt today to make a decision about EKT. =20

E clarifies - document already says you MUST implement DTLS-SRTP, this is a=
bout adding SDES as an option.

First hum: On SDES: should our spec say we MUST implement SDES?

(no one in room) - one hum in jabber

Second hum: Or, you MAY?

(good hum)

Third hum: Or, you MUST NOT?

(better hum)

Substantially more support for MUST NOT than MAY

Same as on jabber

"A decision has been made."

H asks "a MAY for native apps" - did the hum preclude it? H presses point, =
Cullen says the distinction isn't meaningful in the IETF. "The only purpose=
 of this document is a piece of advice to a W3C document."



<> MMUSIC Unified Plan - RTCWeb implications

Adam: Shanghai'd to give this presentation

Adam starts reviewing the existing drafts and deliverables

Keith Drage: what here is RTCWeb WG specific? what's to understand the inte=
r-group process

M - MMUSIC can make the choice to scope any of their deliverables to RTCWeb=
.

Harald Alverstrand - RTCWeb shouldn't care what other uses other WGs will m=
ake of tech, just that they make it. Should parts of architecture go into o=
verview doc?=20

Cullen - Intro?

A - Mechanics of which doc it goes into is not the real question.

M - Wants more detail. What's "JSEP updates"?

A - Justin suggested it

Justin - described bunch of things that need to go into SDP when a stream i=
s added. what happens when createOffer() is called? was depending on unifie=
d plan, need to get some text in there to reflect it.

Christer Holmberg - is partial offer/answer going into JSEP, or through som=
e other browser mechanism?

Justin - through JSEP. Type of session description would be "partial offer"=
.

Christer - is this an update to RFC3264? Will JSEP still be a 3264 update?

A - this doesn't change 3264 semantics

Christer - JSEP based on 3264, but not is 3264 plus partial O/A

A - partial O/A is MMUSIC

Justin - JSEP already divergent from 3264

Ted - when can we get some updates to reflect unified plan?

Harald - Sep 1 (20013, laugh - 2013)

Colin Perkins - not clear what changes people want to the RTP usage doc. te=
ll me what i need to add. otherwise in reasonably good shape, since it allo=
ws extensions etc.=20

Ted - Pls commit to running through the doc to see if there's any updates r=
equired by Sep 1

Keith - process question - who provides what updates?

Christer - should we wait for new version before we continue ongoing discus=
sion

Ted - continue discussion

Cullen - Justin and I have some edits we need to do, don't need ppl to rese=
nd every comment ever, but please watch the new version

Christer - my issue is pranswer

Cullen - got that one

Colin  - not sure we should be relying on RTCweb editors to interpret the u=
nified plan

Cullen - will vary for different issues. the ones where somebody needs to p=
ropose text, there will be coordination.=20

A - i plan to go through the existing doc and decide what relevant text nee=
ds to be its own doc

M - process has lacked transparency up until now. doesn't want surprises, e=
specially not in JSEP.  We need more consideration of the pranswer state ma=
chine.

Harald - timing for coordinating with w3c. Some chunks of work here are lar=
ge. Maybe there should be some "future" references in docs we want to pass.

Christer - I already started looking into the bundle changes the unified pl=
an will cause

Justin - lets not go pick through individual things now.

Cullen - let's not profile the standard now, but what's your timeframe?

Ted - when will JSEP be updated?

Justin - October 1

Ted - that's late

Justin  - i'll give you a date for a date: CoB tomorrow.

(Note Justin later provided around Sept 15 )=20

Bernard Aboba - we have a growing dependency graph, IETF doesn't do that we=
ll. Need a profile spec. The estimated completion date for all dependencies=
 is horrifying.

M - don't think about it like this is a single thing - we need modularity, =
we're all going to take on modular pieces and release incrementally. concer=
ned about profiling.=20

Cullen - W3c doesn't even believe in versioning, what do we do here?

M - there are things we know are done, we should be able to say, "they're d=
one, ship 'em"

(more discussion about how to push and finish docs)

E - know what things need to be done together, don't over-modularize. chair=
s, pls identify what we need for useful functionality and what needs to get=
 bundled together to do that.



<> Security Doc updates

E - got feedback, made updates

M - uncertainty with draft-muthu ref in rtcweb-security

Keith Drage - make an explicit proposal to the list

M - concerned about mixed content being introduced in a renegotiation - E s=
ays we'll discuss later

E  - screen sharing requirements, trying to find a way to provide it as sec=
urely as possible

M - this is deeply coupled to U/X. also, what about app sharing, do entitie=
s being framed in need to consent? what if my content is being framed? he w=
ants an explicit opt-in

E - not talking about DRM scenarios. cross-origin images, frames. should on=
ly apply to the browser doing the session itself.=20

M - if there's another browser in the background, the site has no way of co=
ntrolling what content is displayed on those browsers

E - is sharing the browser itself an important quality? is this a deal brea=
ker if many things go black when you share?

Bernard - we support app sharing, screen sharing, etc, people share browser=
 windows - MS today doesn't get down to any lower level

Jonathan Lennox - chrome sharing firefox, how would you figure out what the=
 iframes do? we do scrape under, especially useful in the tablet environmen=
t. the JS shouldn't be able to get access to the list of available windows =
to share.

E - security model is funky

M - a dialog window saying "what do you want to share?" is the right U/X. y=
ou're in control if you enable screen sharing.=20

E-  let's take this offline to a design team with more participation from b=
rowser sec folks

Ted - we have time, keep going

Justin Uberti - likes Martin's dialog window suggestion.=20

Brian Rosen - should how what has been selected, agreeing

(missed name) - the use case here is tech support, must be able to show a t=
ech exactly what's on your screen

M - maybe we need a way to constrain the request for screen sharing. you ei=
ther need a way to designate what you're sharing or don't share anything.

E - the concern is co-browsing, say, where you don't have that kind of cont=
rol

M - if i'm on site A and i want to share a tab onto the same browser, how's=
 it work? self-sharing is  a different issue. see Moz Tow Truck

(Roberto?) (missed it)

Dan Druta - one use case is pay per view protected content - DRM

M - it is near-impossible without doing something with special privileges

Greg Maxwell - Knowing what's being shared and getting consent is important=
. But once you give consent, beware - site may do a weird pop-up that share=
d private info.

Ted - Okay, get together with EKR and dig into the details on this. Not a f=
ormal design team, just a discussion.

E - should we ban null ciphers? uncontroversial

E - keys and privacy - use a different key for each calling counterparty. d=
ifficult to track, but provides some persistence of keys so you can tell yo=
u're talking to the same party.

Richard Barnes - web crypto provides a good API for this.

E - expect new version shortly

Ted - reminder about going to rmcat. We're meeting again tomorrow.



-------------------------------------------------------------

Second set of raw notes

RTCWeb Minutes IETF87-Berlin Thu 2013-08-01


No agenda bashing.


August 1, 2013
9:00 to 11:30

-- Should SDES be part of  WebRTC security practice and, if so, how?
Presentations: (Discussion left to end of all 3 presentations)

-- Hadriel Kaplan - 10 minutes=20

This is the gong show of presentations. Hold non-clarification questions to=
 discussion section.

Do we mandate DTLS-SRTP be implemented and _used_ much of the time. Should =
we support SDES as MTI (or MUST NOT, or MAY). Anything other than MTI means=
 some browsers won't do it.

WebRTC walled zone/SIP free zone metaphor slide

Several arguments in favor of SDES (see slides). Less clipping, easier for =
gateways, e2e SRTP for interwork cases, implementation experience, low comp=
lexity (assuming it does not degrade security)

Concerns: Eavesdropping, no PFS, downgrade attacks, unverifiable, not compl=
icated enough :-)

Discussion of each concern: see slides. If you have an evil web server, you=
're doomed.=20


-- Martin Thomson - 10 minutes=20

(Speaker dons a "Comment 22" jacket. I hope someone got a picture)

Martin doesn't really like SDES, but it makes applications work better, and=
 that's important.

Allows gateways without re-encryption. Less energy use :-)

DTLS-RTP gives better security properties. <irony>Big success in SIP</irony=
>. If any step of authentication is skipped or fails, you're back to SDES p=
roperties (but with extra RTT and auditing)

-- Eric Rescorla - 10 minutes=20

Not much debate on facts, spin might be difference
SDES the keying system, not SDES from RTCP.

in SDES, the signaling server has the key. In DTLS-SRTP, the signaling serv=
er does not have key without an active/MiTM attack. With key continuity or =
identity, you can detect an attack by signaling server, identify other part=
y, and audit.

Example that people really do audit.

Active vs Passive attack. Passive attack can act retrospectively. (Some peo=
ple make a distinction between capturing data and looking at it :-) )

Passive attack can be invisible. Active attack cannot be hidden.

Can't "accidentally" mount an active attack. Passive can be accidental via =
logs, etc.

DTLS handshake trivial cost compared to media encoding. Clipping is not an =
issue. (DTLS with false start can be done with 1RTT. TLS-WG working on redu=
cing dtls latency.) Working on single RTT for "repeat business". Option to =
delay alert until handshake complete.

Backwards compatibility--vast majority of media traffic is not encrypted. O=
f the SRTP use, most uses SDES.

Re-encryption: Probably need media gateways anyway (ICE, different codecs).=
 Re-encryption not expensive. Many MCUs will re-encrypt anyway. Still have =
EKT if we need it.

Incompetence: DTLS is mandatory. SDES shouldn't be allowed because people w=
ill use it, even if they don't really need to. SDES is brittle--will people=
 remember to sanitize logs? Let's not give people a foot-gun.

Malice: Trivial bid-down attack. Makes it easy to monitor. Can't distinguis=
h intentional monitoring from other SDES scenarios. Isolated streams + DTLS=
-only protect from this.

People notice changes in javascript that effect lots of people.

Large Scale Monitoring easy with SDES, harder with DTLS-SRTP.

EKR Recommends Browser-based WebRTC implementations MUST NOT implement SDES=
.

Discussion:  45 minutes (What role does SDES play?)

Hadriel:

Javascript has access to raw media. If you can't trust the javascript you a=
re doomed. Recalling the same person may go through separate gateways--that=
 won't raise a flag.=20

Martin:

Performance argument is a strawman. A number of problems with ekr's malice =
slide.

Dan ?: Proposals mislead on what a browser is. Is firefox OS a browser? Web=
-run time or not is the important question. W3C has clear discussions on de=
fining web run-time.

Justin: Haven't discussed relative maturity of approaches. Bizarre bug repo=
rts on dtls-srtp. A lot more work for some people. Hard to argue that SDES =
for chromecast would be a big security problem. SDES may be better for some=
 non-person to person communication.

Bernard: Doesn't buy clipping argument--will clip both ways. One possible p=
erformance issue could be large conferences, but need to evaluate EKT to de=
cide.

Richard Asak (sp?): Not buying the passive attack scenario. Passive attacke=
r still has to break TLS. (comments from audience that misconstrues the pro=
blem)

speaker: Need to see threat analysis between sdes and ekt.=20

EKR: EKT properties substantially better than sdes. Must control an endpoin=
t to use ekt.=20

First speaker: the primary basis of crypto is computational complexity. Per=
formance arguments need to consider this. Haven't seen performance analysis=
 of EKT.

(Chairs as for Dan Wing to comment)

Steve Kent: Comparison ultimately about security. Agrees with ekr's securit=
y analysis. Passive attacks much easier with sdes. This is what people shou=
ld worry about.

Joe Hildebrand: Webex does large conferences. Need access to plaintext for =
mixing, recording on behalf of users, pstn interop. Decrypt on server side =
anyway. A bit more computation doesn't matter. Rather have fewer choices, l=
ess opportunity for combinations and misconfiguration. DTLS is fine for the=
m.

Greg Maxwell: Perfect fore knowledge would help. Would people implement sde=
s because it's easier? Would they upgrade to dtls due to security issues? W=
ould misconceptions drive people to sdes? We can predict - virtually all RT=
P is unencrypted. The arguments for sdes would apply for unencrypted. SDES =
is a moral hazard. It will become ubiquitously used. We will never have abi=
lity to detect monitoring. Should not deploy except for when absolutely nee=
ded. EKT can handle many of those cases.

Hadriel: Agrees with Greg. Marketing issue at some level. Need to use stron=
gest things we can or we will get bad wrap. Browser should mandate DTLS, bu=
t other entities may have different issues. Clipping problem is real [sever=
al on the floor disagree]. We need to make a decision today. Most of the ar=
guments are fud.

Hannes: Surprised by two statements: 1) developers get things wrong. Soluti=
on is not make crypto go away, there are other solutions. 2) Powerful adver=
saries, might as well not fight them. Does not want SDES.

Martin: Foot-gun starts out loaded and aimed. Don't get the properties we t=
alk about with incompetence. Question about whether the canary is effective=
. People will look for security problems. Distorting issue.

ekr: Question of developer incompetence. Security props of dtls apply iwtho=
ut idp or isolated streams. When he says incompetence, he's talking about t=
hings like logging. Clipping comments based on research. PFS should be mand=
ated. Martins comments about problems in implementing--we see problems in a=
ll stacks. Justing should call ekr if you=20
see problems :-)

Speaker: Real dev problems have been SDP, not DTLS

Speaker from genband: Most people still choosing non-encrypted. Users shoul=
d have a choice in what to trust. No suggestion to let user decide. How man=
y people are using secure tunnels [forest of hands]

Sam Hartman: When you use DTLS-RTP and don't allow SDES substantially incre=
ases the work of known passive attackers even if your developers are incomp=
etent, users don't know anything, not using idp or key continuity. Gateways=
 can be used. Substantially supports not allowing SDES, especially in brows=
ers.

Justin: Browser chrome can show if SRTP can be used. Passive attack scenari=
o is same for browsers vs web run-times. WebRTC is a byzantine cathedral of=
 new technology. Will extend time before we have stable, working WebRTC. EK=
T not going to show up for a while.

Dan Wing: EKT is an avt-core wg item. Not updated in a while, but will be u=
pdating. Recent changes causes extra RTT, want to avoid. Need to reincorpor=
ate some older text. David G. working on a technique to do ekt stuff withou=
t the extra overhead. Cisco built ekt for telepresence services; didn't wan=
t to do crypto in switching devices. Video switching devices don't have pro=
blem with dtls-srtp with ekt. Dan is a co-author of SDES--and says please d=
on't use it. Use DTLS-SRTP. Future is hopefully not gateways forever.

Allisa Cooper: Conversation not about the paranoids--much larger group. Peo=
ple accept mass monitoring if content is not included. CDR, etc has differe=
nt rules. People are a bit more okay with content monitoring of non-voice t=
hings. Use of DTLS matches the norm for non-paranoids. Not a corner case.

Kalyani: Have both WebRTC clients and standard clients using same server. N=
eed interworking between sdes and dtls. Can do i gateways, native support o=
n each side, or ekt. SDOs like 3gpp need decisions they can act on. Need to=
 consider mobile devices with managed, secure access. Long term don't want =
gateways. Universal security mechanisms in the future.

Jon Peterson: Commends Dan on disowning SDES. Passive attack arguments are =
persuasive. Don't do SDES.

Hadriel: DTLS-SRTP doesn't protect from monitoring. Usually gateway to clea=
rtext. OTOH, webrtc has to be secure, can't depend on user choices.   Even =
in 3gpp model, browsers over public internet need to be as secure as possib=
le. Web apps different story

Sean Turner: Need to pick one. Doesn't want best, wants better. Passive vs =
active problem better with dtls-rtp. SDES may lead to DISCUSSES in the futu=
re (we're watching you)

Chair: That seems to be general concern.

Speaker: metadata is extremely useful. Different treatment only due to regu=
latory differences. People choose convenience. People won't choose security=
 unless they've been burned.=20

Russ Housely: Was appalled at sdes as a sec AD. Let's not do it again.

Speaker: We're not starting fresh--must work with old devices. In his exper=
ience, there's lots of sdes devices. He wants to work with them with minimu=
m effort. Does not want a MUST NOT.

ekr: Disagrees with comments about dtls always being gatewayed. Not true fo=
r web to web case. Wants to avoid any possiblity of getting sdes web-to-web

Wendy Seltzer: Echoes concerns about passive surveillance. Detection is imp=
ortant. Make default choices secure.

Hum Time:

chairs: Context applies to browsers, web run-times, or every possible appli=
cation. Scope applies to browsers and things that use same technology as br=
owsers. Discussion has been around sdes. Not at a point to make a decision =
about ekt. That option will remain open regardless of decision.

Question: Do we think the spec should say MUST implement SDES, MAY implemen=
t SDES, or MUST NOT implement SDES. (Current doc says MUST do dtls-srtp)

Substantially more support for MUST NOT than MAY or MUST

**** Consensus: MUST NOT implement SDES in the browser.

Hadriel: Does this preclude web run-time applications?
Chair: That term (web apps) does not make sense from a W3C perspective. Nee=
d to work through clarifying that.


-- Post-Plan A/Plan B MMUSIC discussion of impact to RTCWEB documents
-- Presentation: Adam Roach - 30 minutes

Adam presents slides on where various bits of work land.

RTCWEB needs an arch doc that points to all the other specs, updates to JSE=
P, RTP.

Discussion: 30 minutes


Keith: Need to confirm other groups will take the work.

Adam: Other items are in charter scope to other groups.

Martin: It's up to other groups if they want to scope things to rtcweb.
Fluffy: That doesn't move things to our charter.
Harald: In RTCWEB, I don't care what other uses other groups make of compon=
ents. Architecture could go in overview doc if not too long.

Cullen (as chair): assumes most would land in overview and rtp usage draft.=
 And jsep.

Actual docs are less important, as long as we do it.

Martin: Not sure jsep updates really covers all of this--what does it mean =
for jsep
Justin: A bunch of things have to go in sdp. jsep needs to specify what hap=
pens when you create offer, answer, etc. Waiting for unified plan to figure=
 that out.

Christer: (quetion to justin) Is this partial offer and answer to be suppor=
ted in jsep, or are they provided to browser some other way.
Justin: Through jsep.
Christer: This will be 3264+
Adam: Not real semantic change from 3264. True that jsep becomes 3264 + new=
 stuff needed in mmusic.

Chair: If you own one of these docs, when can we expect new drafts?

Harald: Sept 1. Expects a version that points to docs at that time, may hav=
e placeholders.
Collin Perkins: Lots of arch doc stuff is already in rtp usage doc. Not cle=
ar what people want to see in rtp usage. Will add references as soon as we =
know which rfcs should be mandated. There are updates outstanding, but not =
should effect this. will try to have existing updates by Sept 1, but no pro=
mises.

Keith: Are we assuming existing editors will add stuff to their drafts. Who=
 will work with MMUSIC etc.

Chairs: Will work with MMUSIC chairs. May press-gang people. Taking volunte=
ers.

Christer: jsep question. Other issues being discussed. Should we hold discu=
ssion on those points until we have a new jsep versions?

Chair: would like conversations to continue.

Fluffy (as individual): Not sure we're at a point to need people to resend =
comments, but if things get missed in next version, please comment.

Collin: (follow up on Keith) : Not sure we should leave it to draft editors=
 to interpret what needs to change. Need the working group to tell the edit=
ors.

Chairs: Need someone to put forth a proposal, then we can wordsmith.
Adam: Happy to work with editors to help figure out what mmusic has agreed =
to.

Chairs: Some things will need working group input, some things can be propo=
sed by editors. Some things may not have a draft yet. Chairs will coordinat=
e between working groups.

Collin: Proponents of unified plan need to offer concrete suggestions.
Adam: will put skeleton together of the parts that impact each draft.
Martin: There's been some transparency issues--want to avoid surprise chang=
es in drafts. Please send email to list prior to changes.
(Chairs, Adam agree)

Martin: Consider implications of pranswer on partial offer/answer. Multiple=
 parallel state machines. Big API change.

Harald: (as w3c chair) Question of time. Push towards something stable as s=
oon as possible, so people have something to refer to.  Most of these items=
 are not large. Bundle, Partial offer/answer stands out. May have "future" =
references to things we can't normatively reference yet. Need to finish in =
finite time.

Christer: Already looking into bundle changes, will communicate results.

Justin: Don't want to pick and choose on what things we need for 1.0 implem=
entations, but may need to consider baseline. Need to consider what can be =
done now, what can be put off.

chairs: May need to profile standards, but not today.=20
Chairs: When can we expect a jsep update?

Justin: Taking unified plan (not all partial offer details) in jsep Oct 1. =
(Chairs want it sooner) Justin: will answer by end of Friday.

Bernard: Need versioned profile documents. Profile that lives for all time =
is not a reasonable thing. Management issue. Dependency graph is horrifying=
.

Martin: Will implement things in their own time. Idea that this is any sing=
le things is delusional. Issue of modularity. Profile tends to happen after=
 you make big monolithic thing, not realistic.

Chair: Profiling adds time to schedule. Document structure can do different=
 things. Overall docs early, "how to " for specific use cases can come late=
r.

Martin: Current structure doesn't support that.
Chair: W3C doesn't believe in versioning. How can we break this up?
Martin: (avoids comment 22)

Chairs: We may need some change in modularity, but don't wait on work. Tech=
nical decisions don't change due to doc structure.

Martin: Be good to be able to identify what is done and shippable. Close or=
 passed that point with overview. Concerned that overview requires changes =
due to unified plan--it's too closely coupled.

Chairs: There was a debate on when to pub overview; decided to do it last. =
Please speak up if other drafts need to be split.

Martin: Or stabbed repeatedly.

ekr: This is a living standard. How do we deliver docs in a way that provid=
e a story of what can be done? What subsets are required to do something us=
eful? Need to be proactive identifying what's done and useful. Escalate dec=
isions.

Chair: Need to track open issues better.






Security document updates
Presentation: Eric Rescorla - 5 minutes
Discussion: 10 minutes

Lots of feedback, last call comments, commenters. Will go over substantive =
changes people likely to have opinion on, a couple of open issues.

Added privacy considerations, discussion of IP location privacy and tor.
Edited SAS section re Alan's comments
Updated comm consent section
Added section about malicious peers
section on screen sharing threats.

Bernard: Can we avoid references to non work group items?
Martin: Need to make that go away somehow. Actual draft not a problem, but =
degree of uncertainty
Keith: Propose replacement on list.

-- security-arch

Forbid use with mixed content

Martin: Says cannot start with mixed comment, not must stop.

SCreen sharing permission reqs
requirement to surface NULL ciphers

Screen sharing has sec threats, but people want it. Added several normative=
 requirement. (No permanent permissions, no bundling permission with other =
media permissions, must clearly indicate applications being shared.)

Martin: Deep coupling with UX style issues. E.g. different apps indicating =
sharing differently. Consent methods extensively researched to trade off wi=
th user annoyance concerns. Need to look at UX alternatives. Not sure how m=
uch goes in draft.

Martin: App sharing for browser, or entire screen sharing--there's another =
set of parties to consider in consent. Things being framed. May not want fr=
aming site to gain access. Should be explicit opt-in in spite of UX issues.

ekr: discussed previously. applies to browser doing introspection on self, =
not other browsers. Would like to here from someone doing video conference =
systems. This may make browser unshareable--is that a deal breaker?

Bernard: MS supports app sharing, screen sharing, and people do share brows=
ers. Display iFrames that are in them. Doesn't get to that level of detail.

Jonathan Lennox: Checking other browsers is hard. System does scrape under.=
 Necessary for single-window environments. JS shouldn't get access to list =
of available windows to share.

ekr: Site solicits what the user wants to share. Makes security model funky=
.

Martin: Task-focused Dialog of "what do you want to share" is valuable. Use=
rs can control sharing, maybe they can handle cross-site content.

ekr: Not going to finish this issue--need to take offline.

chair: Raise your concerns now, design team likely outcome.

Justin: Likes proposal for a select what you want to share dialog, not a ye=
s or no. Users sometimes need to share two different browsers.

Brian Rosen: "share this window" UX difficult when you have to click on win=
dow on top.

speaker: Tech support use case requires sharing everything.=20

Martin: For opt-in support, may need to constrain in ways that can identify=
 "this" browser window. Expectation that you can request framed material ex=
plicitly opt-in, or don't frame it in the first place. "Black boxes" won't =
cause problem.

ekr: Issue is with co-browsing specific sites. Not an issue for generic co-=
browsing.

speaker: As a user, agrees with bullet 3 on clear indication of sharing.

speaker: user case: Pay-per-view protected content.
ekr: Those guys prevent any scraping.
Martin: True--can't get access to those bits.

greg maxwell: Threat model is you share, then have a private banking info i=
Frame pop up.

Chairs: Interested parties get together with ekr. Not formal design team fo=
r time purposes.

Null ciphers: Currently requires calling them out. Martin suggests banning =
them. Sounds like good idea to ekr.

Justin: Only reason to keep is they are useful for debugging.
Martin: Fine for debugging, but don't ship it.
ekr: Spec requirements can be overridden for debug config.

DTLS keys and privacy: Reuse good for security, but linkability. Current sp=
ec requires new key request mechanism. Not in W3C spec yet. Propose require=
ment for multiple persistent keys. Counter third party info leaks by encryp=
ting more of dtls handshake. (already proposed for tls 1.3)

Richard Barnes: [missed comment] Will get together with ekr to discuss.

Next steps: More minor comments, missed a few comments, new version shortly=
 after IETF.

Chairs invite people to attend RMCAT.=

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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On Aug 14, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrot=
e:

> Do we have any IETF draft that should really reference this draft?

The W3C draft has a normative reference to it=20


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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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Should use-cases be on the list ?

Seems like MSID should be on the list=20

Payload for OPUS ?



On Aug 14, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote=
:

> draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
> draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
> draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext
> draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
that should be the transport version of the qos draft=20

> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately


> draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req
I think this wen to audio and video so perhaps it can go=20

> draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol

Seems a bunch of below should have moved to WG drafts at this point=20

> draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
> draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
> draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
> draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
> draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan
> draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata
> draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast


> draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing

Perhaps overview should say the w3c spec depends on constraints-regitry and=
 the TURN / STUN URI to so we get them.=20


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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] References to -overview (Re: Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents)
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On Aug 18, 2013, at 3:37 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote=
:

> On 08/15/2013 11:03 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>> I've taken a look at the unresolved normative references in all of the c=
urrent RTCWEB WG work items.  Here are some comments.=20
>>=20
>> Overall comment
>>=20
>> Several of the documents (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage, draft-ietf-rtcweb=
-security) have a normative reference to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview, while =
others do not (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio, draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, dra=
ft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol, draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch).  While it p=
robably makes sense for some documents to reference an overview of WebRTC, =
the overview document also functions as an overview of work relating to Web=
RTC, so that it has 9 unresolved normative dependencies.  The effect of a n=
ormative reference to the overview document is therefore to delay publicati=
on until all of the overview normative dependencies are resolved.  I am the=
refore wondering whether the normative references to the overview document =
are really necessary, or whether the dependencies shouldn't just go one way=
 (e.g. from the overview to the other docs).=20
>>=20
> In my opinion, the normal case should be that references to -overview are=
 informative, not normative. Documents should be published when they're rea=
dy.
>=20
> Most likely, the proper form is something like "This document specifies a=
 protocol intended for use within the WebRTC effort, but is not restricted =
to that context. An overview of the WebRTC effort is given in [OVERVIEW]".
>=20
> Or something like that.
>=20

+1=

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Opening unordered data channel issue
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On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:

> I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake 2-=
way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the previ=
ous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent immediately wi=
thout waiting for the ACK.

+1


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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
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On Aug 22, 2013, at 4:02 AM, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterp=
rise.com> wrote:

> With regard to the following entry in the minutes.
>=20
> "Andy Hutton:  Need to complete use cases and requirements.  My understan=
ding is that the entire WG can't be done until we have met the requirements=
.  Don't disagree with the 70 percent estimate.=20
> Cullen:  The WG doesn't need to meet its requirements, it needs to decide=
 which ones it will meet and when."=20
>=20
> This does not fully reflect the point I made which was that the requireme=
nts document needs to be completed and then we can review how complete we a=
re against the requirements. If there are requirements that are not to be a=
ddressed at this point then this should be a decision made by the working g=
roup.

Thanks - we will update to reflect that was your comment.

>=20
> I also stated that I believe http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcw=
eb-nat-firewall-considerations should be on the list of RTCWeb related draf=
ts.

On a side note about that =85  we are working on getting a mailing list for=
med for discussion of that as it involves security and apps too and will th=
at discussion moving along once we get the mailing list. We'll keep treatin=
g it as an individual contribution to the rtcweb WG.=20

> This is because it is currently the only draft that addresses the firewal=
l related requirements in the use case and requirements drafts.
>=20
> Regards
> Andy
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Ted Hardie
> Sent: 14 August 2013 19:55
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
>=20
> We're splitting up the minutes review for the two different days of the l=
ast IETF meeting.  Please review and send corrections to the list.  Many th=
anks to Bernard Aboba and Suhas Nandakumar for their excellent notes.
>=20
> regards,
>=20
> Ted
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Opening unordered data channel issue
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--_bcade7d9-a0fb-4fcd-a084-0e703d7f407d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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I agree that b) is the better choice=2C of the two.  =20
=20
Fluffy & Justin said:=20

> > I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake =
2-way=2C it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the p=
revious 2- and 3-way handshake proposals=2C since data can be sent immediat=
ely without waiting for the ACK.
>=20
> +1

 		 	   		  =

--_bcade7d9-a0fb-4fcd-a084-0e703d7f407d_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>I agree that b) is the better ch=
oice=2C of the two.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Fluffy &amp=3B Justin s=
aid: <BR><br>&gt=3B &gt=3B I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While th=
is makes the handshake 2-way=2C it does not suffer from the performance iss=
ues that affected the previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals=2C since da=
ta can be sent immediately without waiting for the ACK.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=
=3B +1<br><BR> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_bcade7d9-a0fb-4fcd-a084-0e703d7f407d_--

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Unresolved normative references in IETF RTCWEB WG documents
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On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:03 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrot=
e:

>=20
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This document has 4 unresolved normative dependencies: [I-D.alvestrand-mm=
usic-msid] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-msid), [I-D.holmberg-mmusic-sdp-bundle-ne=
gotiation] (now draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle), [I-D.jennings-rtcweb-signali=
ng] and [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp].   It is also referenced by several doc=
uments.  Are all these references necessary?=20


Thanks for reviewing this. I'll work with Justin to sort this out in next v=
ersion. I suspect they all need to point at the correct document and that t=
he jennings-rtcweb-signaling can be removed.=20




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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Dependencies on drafts in our documents
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draft-ietf-payload-opus should be on the list because it is a normative dep=
endency of draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio.=20
=20
See the link below for other reference issues which should be cleaned up in=
 the drafts and in the dependency list:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg08622.html
=20
=20

> Should use-cases be on the list ?
>=20
> Seems like MSID should be on the list=20
>=20
> Payload for OPUS ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 14=2C 2013=2C at 6:12 AM=2C Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.n=
o> wrote:
>=20
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation
> > draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext
> > draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates
> > draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
> > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos
> that should be the transport version of the qos draft=20
>=20
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
> > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately
>=20
>=20
> > draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req
> I think this wen to audio and video so perhaps it can go=20
>=20
> > draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol
>=20
> Seems a bunch of below should have moved to WG drafts at this point=20
>=20
> > draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness
> > draft-nandakumar-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
> > draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri
> > draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle
> > draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan
> > draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata
> > draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
> > draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast
>=20
>=20
> > draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing
>=20
> Perhaps overview should say the w3c spec depends on constraints-regitry a=
nd the TURN / STUN URI to so we get them.=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
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}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>draft-ietf-payload-opus should b=
e on the list because it is a normative dependency&nbsp=3Bof draft-ietf-rtc=
web-audio. <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>See the link below for other reference issues wh=
ich should be cleaned up in the drafts and in the dependency list:<BR><a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg08622.html">ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg08622.html</a><BR>&nbs=
p=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR><br>&gt=3B Should use-cases be on the list ?<br>&gt=3B =
<br>&gt=3B Seems like MSID should be on the list <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Payl=
oad for OPUS ?<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B On Aug 14=2C 2013=
=2C at 6:12 AM=2C Harald Alvestrand &lt=3Bharald@alvestrand.no&gt=3B wrote:=
<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-avtcore-6222bis<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B dr=
aft-ietf-avtcore-avp-codecs<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit=
-breakers<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream<br>&gt=3B &g=
t=3B draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draf=
t-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-avtext=
-multiple-clock-rates<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp<br>&gt=3B=
 &gt=3B draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-iet=
f-rtcweb-audio<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel<br>&gt=3B &g=
t=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview<br>=
&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos<br>&gt=3B that should be the transport =
version of the qos draft <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp=
-usage<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-rtcweb-security<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-i=
etf-rtcweb-security-arch<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps=
<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-sack-immediately<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=
=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-jennings-mmusic-media-req<br>&gt=3B I think thi=
s wen to audio and video so perhaps it can go <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B =
draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Seems a bunch of belo=
w should have moved to WG drafts at this point <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B=
 draft-muthu-behave-consent-freshness<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-nandakumar-mmu=
sic-sdp-mux-attributes<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri<br=
>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-rescorla-mmusic-ice-trickle<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-roa=
ch-mmusic-unified-plan<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-stewart-tsvwg-sctp-ndata<br>&=
gt=3B &gt=3B draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-wes=
terlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B draft-=
westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Perhaps over=
view should say the w3c spec depends on constraints-regitry and the TURN / =
STUN URI to so we get them. <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B _________________________=
______________________<br>&gt=3B rtcweb mailing list<br>&gt=3B rtcweb@ietf.=
org<br>&gt=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb<br><BR> 		 	   	=
	  </div></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Opening unordered data channel issue
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On Aug 22, 2013, at 5:52 AM, "Michael Tuexen" <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franke=
n.de> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Any opinions?

Use something other than SCTP so that you have transport semantics that don=
't cause issues like this.

Matthew Kaufman

(Sent from my iPhone)=

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+1 for (b).

On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:12 PM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:

> I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake =
2-way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the =
previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent =
immediately without waiting for the ACK.
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Michael Tuexen =
<Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
> Dear all,
>=20
> at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
> unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The =
problem
> to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
> receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
> of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
> the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
> until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
> has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
> is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
> is solved.
>=20
> The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
> two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
> Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
> of the alternatives. So here are the two options:
>=20
> (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
> (b) Use a new ACK message.
>=20
> Arguments:
> * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
>   However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
> * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
>   data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the =
benefits
>   of unordered delivery.
>=20
> We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
> cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
> similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
> any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
> You can send user data right after opening the data channel.
>=20
> For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
> for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
> that we use the same handshake for all data channels.
>=20
> So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
> 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
> 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
>    It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
>    is ordered or not.
> 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
>    in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
> 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
>    the opener will sent user messages unordered,
>    if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
>    data channel is ordered.
>=20
> Any opinions?
>=20
> Best regards
> Michael
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div>+1 for (b).</div><br><div><div>On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:12 PM, Justin Uberti &lt;<a href="mailto:juberti@google.com">juberti@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake 2-way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent immediately without waiting for the ACK.</div>

<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Michael Tuexen <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de" target="_blank">Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear all,<br>
<br>
at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of<br>
unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem<br>
to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the<br>
receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result<br>
of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that<br>
the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)<br>
until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN<br>
has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message<br>
is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem<br>
is solved.<br>
<br>
The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were<br>
two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall<br>
Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons<br>
of the alternatives. So here are the two options:<br>
<br>
(a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.<br>
(b) Use a new ACK message.<br>
<br>
Arguments:<br>
* Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.<br>
&nbsp; However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.<br>
* Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of<br>
&nbsp; data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits<br>
&nbsp; of unordered delivery.<br>
<br>
We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the<br>
cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not<br>
similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain<br>
any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.<br>
You can send user data right after opening the data channel.<br>
<br>
For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake<br>
for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean<br>
that we use the same handshake for all data channels.<br>
<br>
So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:<br>
1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.<br>
2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;is ordered or not.<br>
3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.<br>
4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;the opener will sent user messages unordered,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;data channel is ordered.<br>
<br>
Any opinions?<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>rtcweb mailing list<br><a href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>
--Apple-Mail=_C5609F32-8A06-4376-827A-1AEB3F2C41C3--

From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 03:40:46 2013
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From: Victor Pascual Avila <victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com>
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I agree -- +1 for b)

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:
> I agree that b) is the cleanest choice. While this makes the handshake
> 2-way, it does not suffer from the performance issues that affected the
> previous 2- and 3-way handshake proposals, since data can be sent
> immediately without waiting for the ACK.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Michael Tuexen
> <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
>> unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem
>> to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
>> receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
>> of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
>> the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
>> until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
>> has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
>> is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
>> is solved.
>>
>> The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
>> two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
>> Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
>> of the alternatives. So here are the two options:
>>
>> (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
>> (b) Use a new ACK message.
>>
>> Arguments:
>> * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
>>   However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
>> * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
>>   data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits
>>   of unordered delivery.
>>
>> We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
>> cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
>> similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
>> any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
>> You can send user data right after opening the data channel.
>>
>> For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
>> for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
>> that we use the same handshake for all data channels.
>>
>> So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
>> 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
>> 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
>>    It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
>>    is ordered or not.
>> 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
>>    in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
>> 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
>>    the opener will sent user messages unordered,
>>    if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
>>    data channel is ordered.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Michael
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:58 PM
> To: Hutton, Andrew
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 22, 2013, at 4:02 AM, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-
> enterprise.com> wrote:
>=20
> > With regard to the following entry in the minutes.
> >
> > "Andy Hutton:  Need to complete use cases and requirements.  My
> understanding is that the entire WG can't be done until we have met the
> requirements.  Don't disagree with the 70 percent estimate.
> > Cullen:  The WG doesn't need to meet its requirements, it needs to deci=
de
> which ones it will meet and when."
> >
> > This does not fully reflect the point I made which was that the require=
ments
> document needs to be completed and then we can review how complete we are
> against the requirements. If there are requirements that are not to be
> addressed at this point then this should be a decision made by the workin=
g
> group.
>=20
> Thanks - we will update to reflect that was your comment.
>=20
> >
> > I also stated that I believe http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rt=
cweb-
> nat-firewall-considerations should be on the list of RTCWeb related draft=
s.
>=20
> On a side note about that ...  we are working on getting a mailing list f=
ormed
> for discussion of that as it involves security and apps too and will that
> discussion moving along once we get the mailing list.=20

I request draft "PCP Considerations for WebRTC Usage" http://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp-00 which addresses the firewall problems to be=
 included in the discussion mailing list.

-Tiru.

> We'll keep treating it
> as an individual contribution to the rtcweb WG.
>=20
> > This is because it is currently the only draft that addresses the firew=
all
> related requirements in the use case and requirements drafts.
> >
> > Regards
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of
> Ted Hardie
> > Sent: 14 August 2013 19:55
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: [rtcweb] Draft minutes for day two, IETF 87
> >
> > We're splitting up the minutes review for the two different days of the=
 last
> IETF meeting.  Please review and send corrections to the list.  Many than=
ks to
> Bernard Aboba and Suhas Nandakumar for their excellent notes.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Ted
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From alan.b.johnston@gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 05:13:43 2013
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--089e012299c843fd1204e49c56bb
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All,

Here's a new I-D on how ZRTP, implemented in JavaScript and run over the
data channel, can be used to provide MitM protection for WebRTC media
sessions keyed with DTLS-SRTP, without relying on any third party service
or PKI. There is an IPR disclosure submitted as well which will show up as
soon as it has been processed - it is of the usual "free if you're not
suing us" variety.

Comments most welcome.

- Alan -

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:16 PM
Subject: I-D Action: draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00.txt
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


        Title           : Using ZRTP to Secure WebRTC
        Author(s)       : Alan Johnston
                          Phil Zimmermann
                          Jon Callas
                          Travis Cross
                          John Yoakum
        Filename        : draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00.txt
        Pages           : 10
        Date            : 2013-08-22

Abstract:
   WebRTC, Web Real-Time Communications, is a set of protocols and APIs
   used to enable web developers to add real-time communications into
   their web pages and applications with a few lines of JavaScript.
   WebRTC media flows are encrypted and authenticated by SRTP, the
   Secure Real-time Transport Protocol while the key agreement is
   provided by DTLS-SRTP, Datagram Transport Layer Security for Secure
   Real-time Transport Protocol.  However, without some third party
   identity service or certificate authority, WebRTC media flows have no
   protection against a man-in-the-middle (MitM) attack.  ZRTP, Media
   Path Key Agreement for Unicast Secure RTP, RFC 6189, does provide
   protection against MitM attackers using key continuity augmented with
   a Short Authentication String (SAS).  This specification describes
   how ZRTP can be used over the WebRTC data channel to provide MitM
   protection for WebRTC media flows keyed using DTLS-SRTP.  This
   provides users protection against MitM attackers without requiring
   browsers to support ZRTP or users to download a plugin or extension
   to implement ZRTP.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

--089e012299c843fd1204e49c56bb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">All,<div><br></div><div>Here&#39;s a new I-D on how ZRTP, =
implemented in JavaScript and run over the data channel, can be used to pro=
vide MitM protection for WebRTC media sessions keyed with DTLS-SRTP, withou=
t relying on any third party service or PKI. There is an IPR disclosure sub=
mitted as well which will show up as soon as it has been processed - it is =
of the usual &quot;free if you&#39;re not suing us&quot; variety.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Comments most welcome.</div><div><br></div><div>- Alan =
-<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------=
<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span=
><br>
Date: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:16 PM<br>Subject: I-D Action: draft-johnston-r=
tcweb-zrtp-00.txt<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-annou=
nce@ietf.org</a><br><br><br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Using ZRTP to Secure WebRTC<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Alan Johnston<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Phil Zimmermann<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jon Callas<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Travis Cross<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 John Yoakum<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00.txt=
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 10<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2013-08-22<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=A0 =A0WebRTC, Web Real-Time Communications, is a set of protocols and APIs=
<br>
=A0 =A0used to enable web developers to add real-time communications into<b=
r>
=A0 =A0their web pages and applications with a few lines of JavaScript.<br>
=A0 =A0WebRTC media flows are encrypted and authenticated by SRTP, the<br>
=A0 =A0Secure Real-time Transport Protocol while the key agreement is<br>
=A0 =A0provided by DTLS-SRTP, Datagram Transport Layer Security for Secure<=
br>
=A0 =A0Real-time Transport Protocol. =A0However, without some third party<b=
r>
=A0 =A0identity service or certificate authority, WebRTC media flows have n=
o<br>
=A0 =A0protection against a man-in-the-middle (MitM) attack. =A0ZRTP, Media=
<br>
=A0 =A0Path Key Agreement for Unicast Secure RTP, RFC 6189, does provide<br=
>
=A0 =A0protection against MitM attackers using key continuity augmented wit=
h<br>
=A0 =A0a Short Authentication String (SAS). =A0This specification describes=
<br>
=A0 =A0how ZRTP can be used over the WebRTC data channel to provide MitM<br=
>
=A0 =A0protection for WebRTC media flows keyed using DTLS-SRTP. =A0This<br>
=A0 =A0provides users protection against MitM attackers without requiring<b=
r>
=A0 =A0browsers to support ZRTP or users to download a plugin or extension<=
br>
=A0 =A0to implement ZRTP.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp<=
/a><br>
<br>
There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00" target=
=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-johnston-rtcweb-zrtp-00</a><br=
>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp=
.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d=
-announce<br>
Internet-Draft</a> directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><br>
or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" target=3D"_blank">=
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br>
</div><br></div></div>

--089e012299c843fd1204e49c56bb--

From harald@alvestrand.no  Fri Aug 23 08:44:26 2013
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: [rtcweb] Adopting -firewall- (Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On 08/20/2013 06:31 PM, Hutton, Andrew wrote:
> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 assuming we can get this adopted.
>
> Regards
> Andy
Chairs, where are we on the question of whether the WG wants to adopt
-firewall- or not?

       Harald


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I like this solution (b). Let's Just Do It.


On 08/22/2013 05:52 PM, Michael Tuexen wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
> unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem
> to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
> receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
> of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
> the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
> until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
> has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
> is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
> is solved.
>
> The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
> two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
> Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
> of the alternatives. So here are the two options:
>
> (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
> (b) Use a new ACK message.
>
> Arguments:
> * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
>   However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
> * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
>   data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits
>   of unordered delivery.
>
> We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
> cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
> similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
> any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
> You can send user data right after opening the data channel.
>
> For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
> for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
> that we use the same handshake for all data channels.
>
> So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
> 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
> 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
>    It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
>    is ordered or not.
> 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
>    in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
> 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
>    the opener will sent user messages unordered,
>    if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
>    data channel is ordered.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Best regards
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.


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+1


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>wrote:

> I like this solution (b). Let's Just Do It.
>
>
> On 08/22/2013 05:52 PM, Michael Tuexen wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of
> > unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The problem
> > to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the
> > receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result
> > of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that
> > the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)
> > until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN
> > has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message
> > is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem
> > is solved.
> >
> > The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were
> > two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall
> > Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons
> > of the alternatives. So here are the two options:
> >
> > (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.
> > (b) Use a new ACK message.
> >
> > Arguments:
> > * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.
> >   However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional.
> > * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of
> >   data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benefits
> >   of unordered delivery.
> >
> > We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the
> > cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not
> > similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain
> > any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.
> > You can send user data right after opening the data channel.
> >
> > For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake
> > for ordered channels. It doesn't have any drawback and would mean
> > that we use the same handshake for all data channels.
> >
> > So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:
> > 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.
> > 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.
> >    It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data channel
> >    is ordered or not.
> > 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable
> >    in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.
> > 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,
> >    the opener will sent user messages unordered,
> >    if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the
> >    data channel is ordered.
> >
> > Any opinions?
> >
> > Best regards
> > Michael
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
> --
> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--001a11c228e2e7722704e4a21f21
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Harald Alvestrand <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:harald@alvestrand.no" target=3D"_blank">harald@=
alvestrand.no</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I like this solution (b). Let&#39;s Just Do =
It.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 08/22/2013 05:52 PM, Michael Tuexen wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; at the last IETF in Berlin we discussed how to handle the opening of<b=
r>
&gt; unordered data channels (no matter wether reliable or not). The proble=
m<br>
&gt; to be handled is that it is possible that user messages arrive at the<=
br>
&gt; receiver before the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received. The result<=
br>
&gt; of the discussion at the meeting was that the best solution is that<br=
>
&gt; the sender sends user messages also ordered (on unordered channels)<br=
>
&gt; until there is an indication from the peer that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN<=
br>
&gt; has been processed. This makes sure that the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message=
<br>
&gt; is not received before user messages and therefore the above problem<b=
r>
&gt; is solved.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The open issue is, what the indication from the peer is. There were<br=
>
&gt; two options discussed at the meeting and it was decided that Randall<b=
r>
&gt; Stewart and myself bring this to the list with the pros and cons<br>
&gt; of the alternatives. So here are the two options:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (a) Use any user message sent from the peer as an indication.<br>
&gt; (b) Use a new ACK message.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Arguments:<br>
&gt; * Using (b) introduces a 2-way handshake for unordered data channels.<=
br>
&gt; =A0 However, it also works for data channels being used unidirectional=
.<br>
&gt; * Using (a) stays with the 1-way handshake, but in case of<br>
&gt; =A0 data channels being used unidirectional you will not see the benef=
its<br>
&gt; =A0 of unordered delivery.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We had some discussions offline and think that using (b) is the<br>
&gt; cleaner solution. Please note that this 2-way handshake is not<br>
&gt; similar to the one we had some time ago. The ACK does not contain<br>
&gt; any additional information and it does not introduce any delay.<br>
&gt; You can send user data right after opening the data channel.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; For consistency we would even propose to use this 2 way handshake<br>
&gt; for ordered channels. It doesn&#39;t have any drawback and would mean<=
br>
&gt; that we use the same handshake for all data channels.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So the proposed procedure for opening an arbitrary data channel is:<br=
>
&gt; 1) The opener sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message ordered and reliable.<=
br>
&gt; 2) The opener can start sending user data immediately.<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0It will always be sent ordered, no matter whether the data chan=
nel<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0is ordered or not.<br>
&gt; 3) The peer will send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message ordered and reliable<=
br>
&gt; =A0 =A0in response to the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message.<br>
&gt; 4) After reception of the DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message,<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0the opener will sent user messages unordered,<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0if the data channel is unordered and ordered, if the<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0data channel is ordered.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any opinions?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards<br>
&gt; Michael<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c228e2e7722704e4a21f21--

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Subject: [rtcweb]  #21: Section 4.1: max-ssrc
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#21: Section 4.1: max-ssrc

 (tbd: is draft-westerlund-mmusic-max-ssrc-01 needed?)

 [BA] I am not a fan of max-ssrc.  Within layered coding it is possible to
 send multiple layers either with the same SSRC or with different SSRCs.
 In such a case the maximum number of layers that can be sent or received,
 and the number of maximum number of SRCNAMEs, is more relevant that the
 maximum number of SSRCs.  Therefore I would prefer not to see max-ssrc
 used in WebRTC (or anything else, for that matter).

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/21>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#22: Section 4.3: Negotiation requirement

 support for all RTP payload formats MUST be negotiated before
    they are used.

 [BA] Why is this a requirement for WebRTC applications?  Couldn't an
 application set the payload formats it wants to use in the API without
 negotiating them on the wire?

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
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Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/22>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement

 If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during
 the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].

 [BA] What about WebRTC applications that don't use SDP for signaling? Or
 applications that decide to multiplex Audio and Video because they know
 that the peer supports it?  Mandating the use of BUNDLE negotiation on the
 wire doesn't make sense.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  critical                 |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/23>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#24: Section 17.1 Normative reference to draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-
multiplexing

 From Section 4.4:

 "One way of doing this is described in [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-
 multiplexing].  At the time of this writing, there is no consensus to use
 a shim-based approach in WebRTC implementations."

 [BA] Given that draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing doesn't
 have consensus, and is still an individual submission, including a
 normative reference to it in Section 17.1 doesn't make sense.  The
 reference should be informative (if it is needed at all).

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  blocker                  |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/24>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions

 These
    central servers can be implemented in a number of ways as discussed
    in Appendix A, and in the memo on RTP Topologies
    [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update].

 [BA] Out-of-date reference; should be to draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-
 topologies-update.

    o  The use of video switching MCUs makes the use of RTCP for
       congestion control and quality of service reports problematic(see
       Section 3.7 of [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]).

 [BA] In the new document, this is now Section 3.6.2.

    o  RTP Transport Translators (Topo-Translator) are not of immediate
       interest to WebRTC, although the main difference compared topoint
       to point is the possibility of seeing multiple different
       transport paths in any RTCP feedback.

 [BA] "not of immediate interest" might be interpreted as not satisfying
 the requirement that "these topologies require no special RTP-layer
 support in the end-point if the RTP features mandated in this memo are
 implemented". If a browser can handle an undeclared SSRC then wouldn't an
 RTP translator also satisfy the requirement?  For example, Section 11
 states: "The API also needs to be capable of handling when new SSRCs are
 received but not previously signalled by signalling in some fashion."

    These
    extensions are not necessary for interoperability; an RTP endpoint
    that does not implement these extensions will work correctly, but
    might offer poor performance.

 [BA] I'd argue that not implementing the extensions will also affect
 aspects such as congestion control, which one might argue is necessary to
 "work correctly".

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/25>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#26: Section 5.2.4 Application Token Header Extension

 If the extension defined in draft-even-mmusic-application-token goes
 forward, it should be considered whether implementation is OPTIONAL or
 RECOMMENDED for WebRTC.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
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Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/26>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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#27: Section 6.2 FEC

 There are several block-based FEC schemes that are designed for use
    with RTP independent of the chosen RTP payload format.  At the time
    of this writing there is no consensus on which, if any, of these FEC
    schemes is appropriate for use in the WebRTC context.  Accordingly,
    this memo makes no recommendation on the choice of block-based FEC
    for WebRTC use.

 [BA] While I realize that it is not easy to decide on which FEC scheme is
 appropriate for WebRTC, including a recommendation on retransmission but
 not FEC is problematic.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/27>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #28: Section 11: Track
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#28: Section 11: Track

 A track is an
    individual stream of media from any type of media source like a
    microphone or a camera, but also conceptual sources, like a audio
    mix or a video composition, are possible.

 [BA] This doesn't seem quite right, if by "individual stream of media"
 you mean RTP Media Stream as defined in Section 3, since a track can be
 comprised of one or more channels.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/28>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: [rtcweb]  #29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources
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#29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources

 tbd: there needs to be a way of indicating how RTP stream relate when
    there are multiple sources, possibly with simulcast or layered
    coding, and different types of mixer or other middlebox.  It is
    possible that the various BUNDLE/Plan-X proposals will solve this,
    but it might also need RTP-level stream identification.  To be
    resolved once the outcome of the BUNDLE and plan-X discussions is
    known.

 [BA] Suggest that the application token extension be considered as a
 potential solution to this.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/29>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources
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#29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 tbd: Are any mechanism needed to signal limitations in the number of
    active SSRC that an end-point can handle?

 [BA] I'd suggest that "signal limitations in the number of active SSRC"
 not be an objective.

-- 
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 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/29#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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On 2013-08-26 01:10, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #27: Section 6.2 FEC
> 
>  There are several block-based FEC schemes that are designed for use
>     with RTP independent of the chosen RTP payload format.  At the time
>     of this writing there is no consensus on which, if any, of these FEC
>     schemes is appropriate for use in the WebRTC context.  Accordingly,
>     this memo makes no recommendation on the choice of block-based FEC
>     for WebRTC use.
> 
>  [BA] While I realize that it is not easy to decide on which FEC scheme is
>  appropriate for WebRTC, including a recommendation on retransmission but
>  not FEC is problematic.
> 

Bernard, this is the WG consensus that we so far have arrived on. If you
have a proposal regarding FEC, please make it and lets see if we can
reach consensus on such a proposal.

However, I fail to see how this is generally problematic. Retransmission
will cover certain parts of the deployment cases when the transport RTT
and delay does not prevent it from being able to repair in a timely
fashion. FEC clearly covers transport characteristics where
retransmission will show its shortcomings. If one want improved
transport performance in those cases clearly a common implemented FEC
solution is desired.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #21: Section 4.1: max-ssrc
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On 2013-08-26 00:20, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #21: Section 4.1: max-ssrc
> 
>  (tbd: is draft-westerlund-mmusic-max-ssrc-01 needed?)
> 
>  [BA] I am not a fan of max-ssrc.  Within layered coding it is possible to
>  send multiple layers either with the same SSRC or with different SSRCs.
>  In such a case the maximum number of layers that can be sent or received,
>  and the number of maximum number of SRCNAMEs, is more relevant that the
>  maximum number of SSRCs.  Therefore I would prefer not to see max-ssrc
>  used in WebRTC (or anything else, for that matter).
> 

I find this comment intriguing and I think important to understand for
the usage of SVC in context of a single RTP session. So you are saying
that you intended to use multi-stream transmission of SVC within a
single RTP session. Could you please expand on the motivation for this
as it will be a requirement effecting signalling requirements. I would
note that SVC MST media streams with multiple media sources in a single
RTP stream may have issues being correctly associated.

Regarding Max-SSRC signalling:
Okay, let me reformulate this question from SSRCs to media decoders.
This as the max-ssrc is designed to be able to express limitations on
number of simultaneous decoders for different codecs a receiver can
handle through the usage of the SSRC and PT combination. Other designs
for this type of signaling is possible.

Are there interest in the WG to be able to indicate the limitations of a
receiver in how many simultaneous media streams a receiver can decode
and thus makes sense to transmit to it?

cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #22: Section 4.3: Negotiation requirement
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On 2013-08-26 00:25, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #22: Section 4.3: Negotiation requirement
> 
>  support for all RTP payload formats MUST be negotiated before
>     they are used.
> 
>  [BA] Why is this a requirement for WebRTC applications?  Couldn't an
>  application set the payload formats it wants to use in the API without
>  negotiating them on the wire?
> 

We are using in negotiated in this specification as meaning:
- All nodes in a specific RTP session must agree on a common configuration.

To achieve this at least some type of capability and configuration
exchange needs to happen. Even if it is stripped down to say: Use
algorithm X and here are the peer capabilities that needs to be taken
into account.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
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On 2013-08-26 00:30, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
> 
>  If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during
>  the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].
> 
>  [BA] What about WebRTC applications that don't use SDP for signaling? Or
>  applications that decide to multiplex Audio and Video because they know
>  that the peer supports it?  Mandating the use of BUNDLE negotiation on the
>  wire doesn't make sense.
> 

Well, the current API to my understanding only provides SDP in the API
to input and output information related to bundle signaling.

The goal from our perspective is to ensure that features that affects
RTP session configuration are negotiated between the peers in the RTP
session. As interoperability failure will occur if the peers don't agree
on using one RTP session for all media types or using a separate RTP
session per media type this is something that requires negotiation.


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #28: Section 11: Track
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On 2013-08-26 01:22, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #28: Section 11: Track
> 
>  A track is an
>     individual stream of media from any type of media source like a
>     microphone or a camera, but also conceptual sources, like a audio
>     mix or a video composition, are possible.
> 
>  [BA] This doesn't seem quite right, if by "individual stream of media"
>  you mean RTP Media Stream as defined in Section 3, since a track can be
>  comprised of one or more channels.
> 

A media source according to the above can be multi-channel audio mix or
capture. The point is that a track is an independent media with an
time-line.

However, this comment do point towards two open issues around this.

First, the use of terminology that should be aligned and help contribute
to the taxonomy draft discussion.

Secondly, that we need to take a serious look at the mapping between the
API and the RTP level. As noted by the TBD in section 11:

   (tbd: This text needs to be improved and achieved consensus on.
   Interim meeting in June 2012 shows large differences in opinions.)

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #26: Section 5.2.4 Application Token Header Extension
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On 2013-08-26 01:06, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #26: Section 5.2.4 Application Token Header Extension
> 
>  If the extension defined in draft-even-mmusic-application-token goes
>  forward, it should be considered whether implementation is OPTIONAL or
>  RECOMMENDED for WebRTC.
> 

Yes, we currently do have a open issue of how one is to accomplish
bindings and relations for multiple different purposes around the RTP
media streams. Clearly the different cases discussed in the following
drafts that applies to RTCWEB needs to be taken into account and we need
to reach some consensus on how to resolve their overlap and get
specifications finished:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtext-rtcp-sdes-srcname/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-msid/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-even-mmusic-application-token/

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources
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On 2013-08-26 01:28, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources
> 
>  tbd: there needs to be a way of indicating how RTP stream relate when
>     there are multiple sources, possibly with simulcast or layered
>     coding, and different types of mixer or other middlebox.  It is
>     possible that the various BUNDLE/Plan-X proposals will solve this,
>     but it might also need RTP-level stream identification.  To be
>     resolved once the outcome of the BUNDLE and plan-X discussions is
>     known.
> 
>  [BA] Suggest that the application token extension be considered as a
>  potential solution to this.
> 

Yes, it is one potential solution. From my perspective the goal must be
to resolve the use cases discussed in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtext-rtcp-sdes-srcname/

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #24: Section 17.1 Normative reference to draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing
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On 2013-08-26 00:33, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
> #24: Section 17.1 Normative reference to draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-
> multiplexing
> 
>  From Section 4.4:
> 
>  "One way of doing this is described in [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-transport-
>  multiplexing].  At the time of this writing, there is no consensus to use
>  a shim-based approach in WebRTC implementations."
> 
>  [BA] Given that draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing doesn't
>  have consensus, and is still an individual submission, including a
>  normative reference to it in Section 17.1 doesn't make sense.  The
>  reference should be informative (if it is needed at all).
> 

Yes, this will be addressed in the update that we currently are working on.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources
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#29: Section 12.2 Multiple Sources


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 Yes, it is one potential solution. From my perspective the goal must be
 to resolve the use cases discussed in
 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtext-rtcp-sdes-
 srcname/

 [BA] Section 3 of the above document is relevant, certainly.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  critical                 |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/29#comment:2>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #26: Section 5.2.4 Application Token Header Extension
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#26: Section 5.2.4 Application Token Header Extension


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 Yes, we currently do have a open issue of how one is to accomplish
 bindings and relations for multiple different purposes around the RTP
 media streams. Clearly the different cases discussed in the following
 drafts that applies to RTCWEB needs to be taken into account and we need
 to reach some consensus on how to resolve their overlap and get
 specifications finished:

 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtext-rtcp-sdes-
 srcname/

 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-msid/

 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-even-mmusic-application-token/

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/26#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #28: Section 11: Track
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#28: Section 11: Track


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 A media source according to the above can be multi-channel audio mix or
 capture. The point is that a track is an independent media with an
 time-line.

 However, this comment do point towards two open issues around this.

 First, the use of terminology that should be aligned and help contribute
 to the taxonomy draft discussion.

 Secondly, that we need to take a serious look at the mapping between the
 API and the RTP level. As noted by the TBD in section 11:

 (tbd: This text needs to be improved and achieved consensus on.
 Interim meeting in June 2012 shows large differences in opinions.)

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/28#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
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#23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 Well, the current API to my understanding only provides SDP in the API
 to input and output information related to bundle signaling.

 The goal from our perspective is to ensure that features that affects
 RTP session configuration are negotiated between the peers in the RTP
 session. As interoperability failure will occur if the peers don't agree
 on using one RTP session for all media types or using a separate RTP
 session per media type this is something that requires negotiation.

 [BA] Agree that A/V multiplexing needs to be agreed upon between the
 parties.  The part that is odd is to mandate BUNDLE over the wire.  Maybe
 say "this MUST be agreed upon between the parties.  In SDP Offer/Answer
 this is handled using [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation]."

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  critical                 |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/23#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#22: Section 4.3: Negotiation requirement


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 We are using in negotiated in this specification as meaning:
 - All nodes in a specific RTP session must agree on a common
 configuration.

 To achieve this at least some type of capability and configuration
 exchange needs to happen. Even if it is stripped down to say: Use
 algorithm X and here are the peer capabilities that needs to be taken
 into account.

 [BA] I agree that the nodes must agree. So maybe just say that: "MUST be
 agreed upon between the parties before they are used."

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  critical                 |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/22#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#21: Section 4.1: max-ssrc


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 I find this comment intriguing and I think important to understand for
 the usage of SVC in context of a single RTP session. So you are saying
 that you intended to use multi-stream transmission of SVC within a
 single RTP session. Could you please expand on the motivation for this
 as it will be a requirement effecting signalling requirements. I would
 note that SVC MST media streams with multiple media sources in a single
 RTP stream may have issues being correctly associated.

 Regarding Max-SSRC signalling:
 Okay, let me reformulate this question from SSRCs to media decoders.
 This as the max-ssrc is designed to be able to express limitations on
 number of simultaneous decoders for different codecs a receiver can
 handle through the usage of the SSRC and PT combination. Other designs
 for this type of signaling is possible.

 Are there interest in the WG to be able to indicate the limitations of a
 receiver in how many simultaneous media streams a receiver can decode
 and thus makes sense to transmit to it?

 [BA] Yes "multi-SSRC" transmission can be used within a single RTP
 session.  RFC 6190 uses the term "multi-session transmission", but does
 not require that multiple sessions be used.  There are several motivations
 for this, including: 1) not needing to rewrite sequence numbers or RTCP
 messages when RTP streams are dropped; 2) being able to use FEC only on
 some layers (e.g. base layer only).  Advantage 1) can translate into not
 needing to decrypt streams in the MANE in some circumstances, just forward
 and drop.  With respect to being associated, there is a need to signal
 this (e.g. a=ssrc-group:DDP) and also for an RTP extension (and maybe
 SDES, too).

 Yes, "max-decoders" is better than "max-ssrc".  Personally, I think this
 is worth working on (but probably in MMUSIC, not RTCWEB).

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
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  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/21#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


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#27: Section 6.2 FEC


Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):

 [Magnus Westerlund]

 Bernard, this is the WG consensus that we so far have arrived on. If you
 have a proposal regarding FEC, please make it and lets see if we can
 reach consensus on such a proposal.

 However, I fail to see how this is generally problematic. Retransmission
 will cover certain parts of the deployment cases when the transport RTT
 and delay does not prevent it from being able to repair in a timely
 fashion. FEC clearly covers transport characteristics where
 retransmission will show its shortcomings. If one want improved
 transport performance in those cases clearly a common implemented FEC
 solution is desired.

 [BA] FEC is discussed in Sections 1.1.7 and 3.3 of draft-roach-mmusic-
 unified-plan, with examples how it might be declared using SDP, so I found
 it a bit odd that draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage only had recommendations for
 RTX, not FEC.  For example, Section 1.1.7 says:

    For robust applications, techniques like RTX and FEC are used to
    protect media, and simulcast/layered coding can be used to provide
    support to heterogeneous receivers.  It needs to be possible to
    support these techniques, allow the recipient to optionally use or
    not use them on a source-by-source basis; and for simulcast/layered
    scenarios, to control which simulcast streams or layers are received.

 Here is what Section 3.3 says:

 3.3.  Handling of Simulcast, Forward Error Correction, and
       Retransmission Streams

    Simulcast refers to taking a single capture (e.g., a camera), and
    encoding it multiple times at different resolutions and / or frame
    rates.  For example, a device with a single HD camera may send one
    version of the video at full HD resolution, and a second version
    encoded at a low resolution.  This would allow a video conferencing
    bridge to be able to send the high resolution copy to some
    destination and low resolution copy to other destinations without
    having to recode the video at the conference bridge.

    Forward Error Correction (FEC) and Retransmission (RTX) streams are
    techniques that can provide stream robustness in the face of packet
    loss.  These approaches frequently make use of different payload
    types and different SSRC values than the stream to which they apply.

    In cases where a media source needs to correspond to more than one
    RTP flow, e.g.  RTX, FEC, or simulcast, the a=ssrc-group [RFC5576]
    concept is used to create a grouping of SSRCs for a single media
    stream track.  Each SSRC is declared using a=ssrc attributes, the
    same MSID is shared between the SSRCs, and the a=ssrc-group attribute
    defines the behavior of the grouped SSRCs.

    These groupings are used to perform demux of the incoming RTP streams
    and associate them (by SSRC) with their primary flows (modulo the
    behavior described in Section 3.2.1, if applicable).  This
    multiplexing of RTX and FEC in a single RTP session is already well-
    defined; RTX SSRC-multiplexing behavior is defined in [RFC4588], and
    FEC SSRC-multiplexing behavior is defined in [RFC5956].

    Note that both RTC and FEC also include SDP expressions that use
    different m= lines for the correction streams (cf.  [RFC4588],
    section 8.7 and [RFC5956], section 4.2).  These formats intend for
    correlation of streams to be based on transport addresses, which is
    inapplicable for bundled media streams.  Our specific proposal is:
    (1) bundling implementations will never generate such a format; and
    (2) bundling implementations MAY choose to accept SDP in such a
    format or MAY simply reject the repair streams and proceed as if the
    indicated repair format is not supported.

    For multi-resolution simulcast, we can create a similar ssrc-group,
    and adapt the imageattr attribute defined in [RFC6236] for the a=ssrc
    line attribute to indicate the send resolution for a given simulcast
    stream.  (This will be added to
    [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast], as outlined in Section 2,
    bullet 1).  In the example below, the SDP advertises a simulcast of a
    camera source at two different resolutions, as well as a screen-share
    source that supports RTX; a=ssrc-group is used to correlate the
    different SSRCs as part of a single media source.

    Note that a characteristic of this approach is that it does not allow
    for independently setting attributes for simulcast, FEC, and RTX
    streams aside from those in fmtp.  In particular, attributes such as
    ptime and framerate are shared between the streams that are grouped
    together for a simulcast group.

    m=video 62537 RTP/SAVPF 96       // main video
    a=msid:ma ta
    a=extmap:1 urn:ietf:params:rtp-hdrext:stream-correlator 15955
    a=mid:1
    a=rtpmap:96 VP8/90000
    a=sendrecv
    a=rtcp-mux
    a=ssrc:29154 imageattr:96 [x=1280,y=720]
    a=ssrc:47182 imageattr:96 [x=640,y=360]
    a=ssrc-group:SIMULCAST 29154 47182
    m=video 0 RTP/SAVPF 96 97          // slide video
    a=msid:ma tb
    a=extmap:1 urn:ietf:params:rtp-hdrext:stream-correlator 26267
    a=mid:2
    a=rtpmap:96 VP8/90000
    a=rtpmap:97 rtx/90000
    a=sendrecv
    a=rtcp-mux
    a=fmtp:97 apt=96;rtx-time=3000
    a=ssrc:45982
    a=ssrc:9827
    a=ssrc-group:FID 45982 9827        // FID provides SSRC correlation
    a=bundle-only


    Providing explicit resolutions on a per-SSRC basis for SIMULCAST
    groupings allows an intermediary (such as a Media Translator
    [RFC5117]) to be able to select an appropriate SIMULCAST layer
    without inspecting the media stream, which could otherwise require
    decrypting and possibly partially decoding media packets.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-
  bernard_aboba@hotmail.com          |  usage@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |   Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  rtp-usage                |     Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/ticket/27#comment:1>
rtcweb <http://tools.ietf.org/rtcweb/>


From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Aug 26 03:21:38 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
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On 08/26/2013 08:29 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> On 2013-08-26 00:30, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
>> #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
>>
>>   If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during
>>   the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].
>>
>>   [BA] What about WebRTC applications that don't use SDP for signaling? Or
>>   applications that decide to multiplex Audio and Video because they know
>>   that the peer supports it?  Mandating the use of BUNDLE negotiation on the
>>   wire doesn't make sense.
>>
> Well, the current API to my understanding only provides SDP in the API
> to input and output information related to bundle signaling.
>
> The goal from our perspective is to ensure that features that affects
> RTP session configuration are negotiated between the peers in the RTP
> session. As interoperability failure will occur if the peers don't agree
> on using one RTP session for all media types or using a separate RTP
> session per media type this is something that requires negotiation.
I think we're pointing at a more general issue here, which is more a 
separation-of-concerns thing than anything else.

With regard to the -rtp-usage- draft, the question can be phrased as:
Should -rtp-usage- make statements about the signalling protocol in use?

My interpretation is clearly "no". We have consensus not to mandate a 
signalling protocol, so it's impossible for -rtp-usage- to make 
normative statements about it.

The next question down is:
Should -rtp-usage- make requirements on the SDP passed across the W3C API?
Again, my interpretation is "no". I could argue both that this is out of 
IETF scope and that -jsep- is the only place that should describe it - 
the two arguments are inconsistent, but both indicate that -rtp-usage- 
is not the right place to make those statements.

Third level is:
Should -rtp-usage- use *informative* references to SDP mechanisms as 
*examples* of how specific features can be negotiated?
My suggestion would be "yes". At the moment, we don't have a better 
description mechanism than the one provided by describing SDP extensions 
that shows clearly how negotiation can occur.
In my opinion, there can be other mechanisms (including "cheating" ones 
like saying "Hey, I know this application I'm talking to, it's only 
going to run on a browser capable of doing X, and it's going to 
configure the browser to use X" - we should NOT standardize such 
mechanisms, but people WILL use them, and suffer the consequences) that 
achieve the goal of configuring the endpoints correctly.

It is a bit onerous to write, instead of

  If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated during
  the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].

formulating oneself as

  If such RTP session set-up is to be used, both sides MUST agree beforehand on
  its usage. In an SDP context, [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation] will achieve this.

But I think it's a more reasonable approach.
  






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I have updated my description of how to do resolution negotiation with 
input from -unified-plan and from the newly updated constraints update API.

Comments welcome, but preferably on one mailing list; since this has 
turned into mainly API usage, I think the discussion should go on 
public-webrtc if it's not specifically about the SDP components.

           Harald


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for 
draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
Date: 	Mon, 26 Aug 2013 05:23:13 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Harald T. Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Harald Alvestrand 
<harald@alvestrand.no>



A new version of I-D, draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the
IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution
Revision:	 03
Title:		 Resolution Constraints in Web Real Time Communications
Creation date:	 2013-08-26
Group:		 Individual Submission
Number of pages: 10
URL:             http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
Status:          http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution
Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03
Diff:            http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03

Abstract:
    This document specifies the constraints necessary for a Javascript
    application to successfully indicate to a browser that supports
    WebRTC what resolutions it desires on a video stream.

    It also discusses the possible use of SDP to carry that information
    between browsers.


                                                                                   


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--------------020509070509010309020507
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    I have updated my description of how to do resolution negotiation
    with input from -unified-plan and from the newly updated constraints
    update API.<br>
    <br>
    Comments welcome, but preferably on one mailing list; since this has
    turned into mainly API usage, I think the discussion should go on
    public-webrtc if it's not specifically about the SDP components.<br>
    <br>
    Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Harald<br>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Original Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
        cellspacing="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Mon, 26 Aug 2013 05:23:13 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Harald T. Alvestrand <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">&lt;harald@alvestrand.no&gt;</a>,
              Harald Alvestrand <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">&lt;harald@alvestrand.no&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>A new version of I-D, draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the
IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution
Revision:	 03
Title:		 Resolution Constraints in Web Real Time Communications
Creation date:	 2013-08-26
Group:		 Individual Submission
Number of pages: 10
URL:             <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt</a>
Status:          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution</a>
Htmlized:        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03</a>
Diff:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03</a>

Abstract:
   This document specifies the constraints necessary for a Javascript
   application to successfully indicate to a browser that supports
   WebRTC what resolutions it desires on a video stream.

   It also discusses the possible use of SDP to carry that information
   between browsers.


                                                                                  


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The IETF Secretariat

</pre>
      <br>
    </div>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020509070509010309020507--

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On 26 Aug 2013, at 11:22, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> =
wrote:
> On 08/26/2013 08:29 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
>> On 2013-08-26 00:30, rtcweb issue tracker wrote:
>>> #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
>>>=20
>>>  If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated =
during
>>>  the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].
>>>=20
>>>  [BA] What about WebRTC applications that don't use SDP for =
signaling? Or
>>>  applications that decide to multiplex Audio and Video because they =
know
>>>  that the peer supports it?  Mandating the use of BUNDLE negotiation =
on the
>>>  wire doesn't make sense.
>>>=20
>> Well, the current API to my understanding only provides SDP in the =
API to input and output information related to bundle signaling.
>>=20
>> The goal from our perspective is to ensure that features that affects =
RTP session configuration are negotiated between the peers in the RTP =
session. As interoperability failure will occur if the peers don't agree =
on using one RTP session for all media types or using a separate RTP =
session per media type this is something that requires negotiation.
> I think we're pointing at a more general issue here, which is more a =
separation-of-concerns thing than anything else.
>=20
> With regard to the -rtp-usage- draft, the question can be phrased as:
> Should -rtp-usage- make statements about the signalling protocol in =
use?
>=20
> My interpretation is clearly "no". We have consensus not to mandate a =
signalling protocol, so it's impossible for -rtp-usage- to make =
normative statements about it.
>=20
> The next question down is:
> Should -rtp-usage- make requirements on the SDP passed across the W3C =
API?
> Again, my interpretation is "no". I could argue both that this is out =
of IETF scope and that -jsep- is the only place that should describe it =
- the two arguments are inconsistent, but both indicate that -rtp-usage- =
is not the right place to make those statements.
>=20
> Third level is:
> Should -rtp-usage- use *informative* references to SDP mechanisms as =
*examples* of how specific features can be negotiated?
> My suggestion would be "yes". At the moment, we don't have a better =
description mechanism than the one provided by describing SDP extensions =
that shows clearly how negotiation can occur.
> In my opinion, there can be other mechanisms (including "cheating" =
ones like saying "Hey, I know this application I'm talking to, it's only =
going to run on a browser capable of doing X, and it's going to =
configure the browser to use X" - we should NOT standardize such =
mechanisms, but people WILL use them, and suffer the consequences) that =
achieve the goal of configuring the endpoints correctly.
>=20
> It is a bit onerous to write, instead of
>=20
> If such RTP session set-up is to be used, this MUST be negotiated =
during the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].
>=20
> formulating oneself as
>=20
> If such RTP session set-up is to be used, both sides MUST agree =
beforehand on its usage. In an SDP context, =
[I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation] will achieve this.
>=20
> But I think it's a more reasonable approach.


I'm not sure about the precise wording, but I agree with the principle, =
and will try to clarify this in the next version of the draft.

--=20
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/




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On 26 Aug 2013, at 08:03, rtcweb issue tracker =
<trac+rtcweb@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
> #22: Section 4.3: Negotiation requirement
>=20
>=20
> Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):
>=20
> [Magnus Westerlund]
>=20
> We are using in negotiated in this specification as meaning:
> - All nodes in a specific RTP session must agree on a common
> configuration.
>=20
> To achieve this at least some type of capability and configuration
> exchange needs to happen. Even if it is stripped down to say: Use
> algorithm X and here are the peer capabilities that needs to be taken
> into account.
>=20
> [BA] I agree that the nodes must agree. So maybe just say that: "MUST =
be agreed upon between the parties before they are used."


Fine. Once again, I'll give SDP as an example of how this can be done.

--=20
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/




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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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On 25 Aug 2013, at 23:54, rtcweb issue tracker =
<trac+rtcweb@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
> #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
>=20
> These
>    central servers can be implemented in a number of ways as discussed
>    in Appendix A, and in the memo on RTP Topologies
>    [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update].
>=20
> [BA] Out-of-date reference; should be to draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-
> topologies-update.

Will fix.

>    o  The use of video switching MCUs makes the use of RTCP for
>       congestion control and quality of service reports =
problematic(see
>       Section 3.7 of [I-D.westerlund-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]).
>=20
> [BA] In the new document, this is now Section 3.6.2.

Will fix.

>    o  RTP Transport Translators (Topo-Translator) are not of immediate
>       interest to WebRTC, although the main difference compared =
topoint
>       to point is the possibility of seeing multiple different
>       transport paths in any RTCP feedback.
>=20
> [BA] "not of immediate interest" might be interpreted as not =
satisfying the requirement that "these topologies require no special =
RTP-layer support in the end-point if the RTP features mandated in this =
memo are implemented". If a browser can handle an undeclared SSRC then =
wouldn't an RTP translator also satisfy the requirement?  For example, =
Section 11 states: "The API also needs to be capable of handling when =
new SSRCs are received but not previously signalled by signalling in =
some fashion."

I see no reason why a transport translator couldn't be used in the =
WebRTC context, so I propose to remove this bullet.

>    These
>    extensions are not necessary for interoperability; an RTP endpoint
>    that does not implement these extensions will work correctly, but
>    might offer poor performance.
>=20
> [BA] I'd argue that not implementing the extensions will also affect =
aspects such as congestion control, which one might argue is necessary =
to "work correctly".

I suggest that TMMBR sets an envelope within which the congestion =
control should operate, but shouldn't be required for congestion control =
to work. The others might be useful in conjunction with a congestion =
control algorithm, to suggest how a new rate is to be achieved, but also =
aren't required.


--=20
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/




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Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage@tools.ietf.org, rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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On 26 Aug 2013, at 08:18, rtcweb issue tracker =
<trac+rtcweb@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
> #27: Section 6.2 FEC
>=20
>=20
> Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):
>=20
> [Magnus Westerlund]
>=20
> Bernard, this is the WG consensus that we so far have arrived on. If =
you have a proposal regarding FEC, please make it and lets see if we can =
reach consensus on such a proposal.
>=20
> However, I fail to see how this is generally problematic. =
Retransmission will cover certain parts of the deployment cases when the =
transport RTT and delay does not prevent it from being able to repair in =
a timely fashion. FEC clearly covers transport characteristics where =
retransmission will show its shortcomings. If one want improved =
transport performance in those cases clearly a common implemented FEC =
solution is desired.
>=20
> [BA] FEC is discussed in Sections 1.1.7 and 3.3 of draft-roach-mmusic- =
unified-plan, with examples how it might be declared using SDP, so I =
found it a bit odd that draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage only had =
recommendations for RTX, not FEC.  For example, Section 1.1.7 says:
>=20
>    For robust applications, techniques like RTX and FEC are used to
>    protect media, and simulcast/layered coding can be used to provide
>    support to heterogeneous receivers.  It needs to be possible to
>    support these techniques, allow the recipient to optionally use or
>    not use them on a source-by-source basis; and for simulcast/layered
>    scenarios, to control which simulcast streams or layers are =
received.

I don't see anything in this section that conflicts with rtp-usage =
draft.

> Here is what Section 3.3 says:
>=20
> 3.3.  Handling of Simulcast, Forward Error Correction, and
>       Retransmission Streams

...

Again, that all seems reasonable, but doesn't address the issue of what =
type of FEC to use. Like Magnus, I don't see working group consensus to =
recommend a particular FEC scheme. If you believe there is consensus on =
using a particular FEC scheme, make a proposal, and we'll incorporate it =
if accepted.=20

--=20
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/




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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #23: Section 4.4 SDP signaling requirement
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Harald said:=20
> I think we're pointing at a more general issue here=2C which is more a=20
> separation-of-concerns thing than anything else.
>=20
> With regard to the -rtp-usage- draft=2C the question can be phrased as:
> Should -rtp-usage- make statements about the signalling protocol in use?
>=20
> My interpretation is clearly "no". We have consensus not to mandate a=20
> signalling protocol=2C so it's impossible for -rtp-usage- to make=20
> normative statements about it.
[BA] I agree.=20
> The next question down is:
> Should -rtp-usage- make requirements on the SDP passed across the W3C API=
?
> Again=2C my interpretation is "no". I could argue both that this is out o=
f=20
> IETF scope and that -jsep- is the only place that should describe it -=20
> the two arguments are inconsistent=2C but both indicate that -rtp-usage-=
=20
> is not the right place to make those statements.
[BA] I agree with this as a general principle (and not just for rtp-usage).=
 Keeping the RTP usage document focused on RTP and removing thingsthat don'=
t need to be there will allow us to complete it more quickly=2Cand with few=
er dependencies on other documents.  That also will makethis and other docu=
ments easier to maintain.=20
> Third level is:
> Should -rtp-usage- use *informative* references to SDP mechanisms as=20
> *examples* of how specific features can be negotiated?
> My suggestion would be "yes". At the moment=2C we don't have a better=20
> description mechanism than the one provided by describing SDP extensions=
=20
> that shows clearly how negotiation can occur.
> In my opinion=2C there can be other mechanisms (including "cheating" ones=
=20
> like saying "Hey=2C I know this application I'm talking to=2C it's only=20
> going to run on a browser capable of doing X=2C and it's going to=20
> configure the browser to use X" - we should NOT standardize such=20
> mechanisms=2C but people WILL use them=2C and suffer the consequences) th=
at=20
> achieve the goal of configuring the endpoints correctly.
>=20
> It is a bit onerous to write=2C instead of
>=20
>   If such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C this MUST be negotiated dur=
ing
>   the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation].
>=20
> formulating oneself as
>=20
>   If such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C both sides MUST agree befor=
ehand on
>   its usage. In an SDP context=2C [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation=
] will achieve this.
>=20
> But I think it's a more reasonable approach.

[BA] Yes=2C something like this is what I had in mind.  		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B">Harald said:&nbsp=3B</span><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br=
></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">&gt=3B I think we're =
pointing at a more general issue here=2C which is more a&nbsp=3B</span><br>=
<div>&gt=3B separation-of-concerns thing than anything else.<br>&gt=3B <br>=
&gt=3B With regard to the -rtp-usage- draft=2C the question can be phrased =
as:<br>&gt=3B Should -rtp-usage- make statements about the signalling proto=
col in use?<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B My interpretation is clearly "no". We have=
 consensus not to mandate a <br>&gt=3B signalling protocol=2C so it's impos=
sible for -rtp-usage- to make <br>&gt=3B normative statements about it.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>[BA] I agree.&nbsp=3B</div><div><br>&gt=3B The next q=
uestion down is:<br>&gt=3B Should -rtp-usage- make requirements on the SDP =
passed across the W3C API?<br>&gt=3B Again=2C my interpretation is "no". I =
could argue both that this is out of <br>&gt=3B IETF scope and that -jsep- =
is the only place that should describe it - <br>&gt=3B the two arguments ar=
e inconsistent=2C but both indicate that -rtp-usage- <br>&gt=3B is not the =
right place to make those statements.</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] I agree=
 with this as a general principle (and not just for rtp-usage).&nbsp=3B</di=
v><div>Keeping the RTP usage document focused on RTP and removing things</d=
iv><div>that don't need to be there will allow us to complete it more quick=
ly=2C</div><div>and with fewer dependencies on other documents. &nbsp=3BTha=
t also will make</div><div>this and other documents easier to maintain.&nbs=
p=3B</div><div><br></div><div>&gt=3B Third level is:<br>&gt=3B Should -rtp-=
usage- use *informative* references to SDP mechanisms as <br>&gt=3B *exampl=
es* of how specific features can be negotiated?<br>&gt=3B My suggestion wou=
ld be "yes". At the moment=2C we don't have a better <br>&gt=3B description=
 mechanism than the one provided by describing SDP extensions <br>&gt=3B th=
at shows clearly how negotiation can occur.<br>&gt=3B In my opinion=2C ther=
e can be other mechanisms (including "cheating" ones <br>&gt=3B like saying=
 "Hey=2C I know this application I'm talking to=2C it's only <br>&gt=3B goi=
ng to run on a browser capable of doing X=2C and it's going to <br>&gt=3B c=
onfigure the browser to use X" - we should NOT standardize such <br>&gt=3B =
mechanisms=2C but people WILL use them=2C and suffer the consequences) that=
 <br>&gt=3B achieve the goal of configuring the endpoints correctly.<br>&gt=
=3B <br>&gt=3B It is a bit onerous to write=2C instead of<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=
=3B   If such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C this MUST be negotiated d=
uring<br>&gt=3B   the signalling phase [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiat=
ion].<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B formulating oneself as<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B   If=
 such RTP session set-up is to be used=2C both sides MUST agree beforehand =
on<br>&gt=3B   its usage. In an SDP context=2C [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-=
negotiation] will achieve this.<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B But I think it's a mor=
e reasonable approach.<br><br></div></div><div>[BA] Yes=2C something like t=
his is what I had in mind.&nbsp=3B</div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_dc497aa3-2fb5-4986-b80a-d4a3fc6a85cd_--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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Section 5.1 says:=20
   These extensions are not necessary for interoperability=3B an RTP endpoi=
nt=0A=
   that does not implement these extensions will work correctly=2C but   mi=
ght offer poor performance.=20
 Colin said:=20
"I suggest that TMMBR sets an envelope within which the congestion control =
should operate=2C but shouldn't be required for congestion control to work.=
 The others might be useful in conjunction with a congestion control algori=
thm=2C to suggest how a new rate is to be achieved=2C but also aren't requi=
red."
[BA] It's certainly possible to implement sender-side congestion control th=
at wouldn't need TMMBR.   Also=2C there is the circuit breaker document.  H=
owever=2C Section 5.1.6 states the following:=20
   WebRTC senders are REQUIRED to implement support for TMMBR messages=2C=
=0A=
   and MUST follow bandwidth limitations set by a TMMBR message received=0A=
   for their SSRC.  The sending of TMMBR requests is OPTIONAL.=0A=


As noted in RFC 2119 Section 6:=20
   In particular=2C they MUST only be used where it is=0A=
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has=0A=
   potential for causing harm (e.g.=2C limiting retransmisssions)  For=0A=
   example=2C they must not be used to try to impose a particular method=0A=
   on implementors where the method is not required for=0A=
   interoperability.=0A=


On reading section 5.1.6=2C I had assumed that the TMMBR mandate derived fr=
om a need to ensure interoperability of a potential (receiver-side) congest=
ion control mechanism.   But if that's not the case=2C then based on RFC 21=
19 Section 6=2C I don't understand why TMMBR is REQUIRED.  Also=2C doesn't =
TMMBR have utility beyond conferencing scenarios as stated in Section 5.1? =
 Not sure I would lump TMMBR in with FIR=2C PLI=2C SLI=2C etc.=20

 		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'><div><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
2pt=3B">Section 5.1 says:&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><br></div><div><pre clas=
s=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: =
0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">   These extensions are not necessary =
for interoperability=3B an RTP endpoint=0A=
   that does not implement these extensions will work correctly=2C but</pre=
><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margi=
n-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">   might offer poor performa=
nce.&nbsp=3B</pre></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span>=
</div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">&nbsp=3B</span>Colin said:&nb=
sp=3B</div><div><br>"I suggest that TMMBR sets an envelope within which the=
 congestion control should operate=2C but shouldn't be required for congest=
ion control to work. The others might be useful in conjunction with a conge=
stion control algorithm=2C to suggest how a new rate is to be achieved=2C b=
ut also aren't required."</div><div><br></div><div>[BA] It's certainly poss=
ible to implement sender-side congestion control that wouldn't need TMMBR. =
&nbsp=3B Also=2C there is the circuit breaker document. &nbsp=3BHowever=2C =
Section 5.1.6 states the following:&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div><pre c=
lass=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-botto=
m: 0px=3B page-break-before: always=3B">   WebRTC senders are REQUIRED to i=
mplement support for TMMBR messages=2C=0A=
   and MUST follow bandwidth limitations set by a TMMBR message received=0A=
   for their SSRC.  The sending of TMMBR requests is OPTIONAL.=0A=
</pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As noted in RFC 2119 Section=
 6:&nbsp=3B</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-s=
ize: 1em=3B margin-top: 0px=3B margin-bottom: 0px=3B page-break-before: alw=
ays=3B">   In particular=2C they MUST only be used where it is=0A=
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has=0A=
   potential for causing harm (e.g.=2C limiting retransmisssions)  For=0A=
   example=2C they must not be used to try to impose a particular method=0A=
   on implementors where the method is not required for=0A=
   interoperability.=0A=
</pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On reading section 5.1.6=2C =
I had assumed that the TMMBR mandate&nbsp=3B<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
=3B">derived from a need to ensure interoperability of a potential (receive=
r-side) congestion control mechanism. &nbsp=3B But if that's not the case=
=2C then based on RFC 2119 Section 6=2C I don't understand why TMMBR is REQ=
UIRED. &nbsp=3BAlso=2C doesn't TMMBR have utility beyond conferencing scena=
rios as stated in Section 5.1? &nbsp=3BNot sure I would lump TMMBR in with =
FIR=2C PLI=2C SLI=2C etc.&nbsp=3B</span></div><div><br><br></div> 		 	   		=
  </div></body>
</html>=

--_34113899-7c7d-4224-86ea-a21703844933_--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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Colin said:=20
"Again=2C that all seems reasonable=2C but doesn't address the issue of wha=
t type of FEC to use. Like Magnus=2C I don't see working group consensus to=
 recommend a particular FEC scheme. If you believe there is consensus on us=
ing a particular FEC scheme=2C make a proposal=2C and we'll incorporate it =
if accepted. "

[BA] I assumed (rightly? wrongly?) that the FEC section of the Unified Plan=
 document was put there with the intent to enable FEC to be indicated in th=
e (SDP-based) API. Assuming that was the intent=2C and that the capability =
is developed further=2C  it would be useful for the supported FEC schemes t=
o be documented somewhere=2C so as to enable interoperability.  I'll leave =
it to those who worked on the document to clarify where the RTX/FEC section=
 is headed.   		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Colin said:&nbsp=3B<div><br><div=
>"Again=2C that all seems reasonable=2C but doesn't address the issue of wh=
at type of FEC to use. Like Magnus=2C I don't see working group consensus t=
o recommend a particular FEC scheme. If you believe there is consensus on u=
sing a particular FEC scheme=2C make a proposal=2C and we'll incorporate it=
 if accepted. "<br><br></div></div><div>[BA] I assumed (rightly? wrongly?) =
that the FEC section of the Unified Plan document was put there with the in=
tent to enable FEC to be indicated in the (SDP-based) API. Assuming that wa=
s the intent=2C and that the capability is developed further=2C &nbsp=3Bit =
would be useful for the supported FEC schemes to be documented somewhere=2C=
 so as to enable interoperability. &nbsp=3BI'll leave it to those who worke=
d on the document to clarify where the RTX/FEC section is headed. &nbsp=3B<=
/div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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So for FEC need to support RFC5956 and RFC6364 for signaling but no specific
FEC scheme
Roni Even

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Colin Perkins
> Sent: 26 August, 2013 6:51 PM
> To: rtcweb issue tracker
> Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage@tools.ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
> 
> On 26 Aug 2013, at 08:18, rtcweb issue tracker
> <trac+rtcweb@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
> > #27: Section 6.2 FEC
> >
> >
> > Comment (by bernard_aboba@hotmail.com):
> >
> > [Magnus Westerlund]
> >
> > Bernard, this is the WG consensus that we so far have arrived on. If you
> have a proposal regarding FEC, please make it and lets see if we can reach
> consensus on such a proposal.
> >
> > However, I fail to see how this is generally problematic. Retransmission
will
> cover certain parts of the deployment cases when the transport RTT and
> delay does not prevent it from being able to repair in a timely fashion.
FEC
> clearly covers transport characteristics where retransmission will show
its
> shortcomings. If one want improved transport performance in those cases
> clearly a common implemented FEC solution is desired.
> >
> > [BA] FEC is discussed in Sections 1.1.7 and 3.3 of draft-roach-mmusic-
> unified-plan, with examples how it might be declared using SDP, so I found
it
> a bit odd that draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage only had recommendations for
> RTX, not FEC.  For example, Section 1.1.7 says:
> >
> >    For robust applications, techniques like RTX and FEC are used to
> >    protect media, and simulcast/layered coding can be used to provide
> >    support to heterogeneous receivers.  It needs to be possible to
> >    support these techniques, allow the recipient to optionally use or
> >    not use them on a source-by-source basis; and for simulcast/layered
> >    scenarios, to control which simulcast streams or layers are received.
> 
> I don't see anything in this section that conflicts with rtp-usage draft.
> 
> > Here is what Section 3.3 says:
> >
> > 3.3.  Handling of Simulcast, Forward Error Correction, and
> >       Retransmission Streams
> 
> ...
> 
> Again, that all seems reasonable, but doesn't address the issue of what
type
> of FEC to use. Like Magnus, I don't see working group consensus to
> recommend a particular FEC scheme. If you believe there is consensus on
> using a particular FEC scheme, make a proposal, and we'll incorporate it
if
> accepted.
> 
> --
> Colin Perkins
> http://csperkins.org/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Mon Aug 26 16:41:01 2013
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
To: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>, 'Colin Perkins' <csp@csperkins.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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Roni said:=20

> So for FEC need to support RFC5956 and RFC6364 for signaling but no speci=
fic FEC scheme

[BA] Those are the relevant RFCs I would gather from the "Unified Plan" doc=
=2C but of course it makes no sense to define an API to control FEC without=
 knowing what specific FEC schemes are going to be supported.   Such an API=
 wouldn't just potentially differ in specifics between browser implementati=
ons=2C it might not potentially interoperate over the wire. =20
 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
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body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
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--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Roni said: <BR><br>&gt=3B So for=
 FEC need to support RFC5956 and RFC6364 for signaling but no specific&nbsp=
=3BFEC scheme<br><BR>[BA] Those are the relevant RFCs I would gather from t=
he "Unified Plan" doc=2C but of course it makes no sense to define an API t=
o control FEC without knowing what specific FEC schemes are going to be sup=
ported.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Such an API wouldn't just potentially differ in spe=
cifics&nbsp=3Bbetween browser implementations=2C it&nbsp=3Bmight not potent=
ially&nbsp=3Binteroperate over the wire.&nbsp=3B <BR> 		 	   		  </div></bo=
dy>
</html>=

--_16cb6074-193a-4857-9559-bd8c41b996be_--

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #27: Section 6.2 FEC
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On 2013-08-26 20:13, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Colin said: 
> 
> "Again, that all seems reasonable, but doesn't address the issue of what
> type of FEC to use. Like Magnus, I don't see working group consensus to
> recommend a particular FEC scheme. If you believe there is consensus on
> using a particular FEC scheme, make a proposal, and we'll incorporate it
> if accepted. "
> 
> [BA] I assumed (rightly? wrongly?) that the FEC section of the Unified
> Plan document was put there with the intent to enable FEC to be
> indicated in the (SDP-based) API. Assuming that was the intent, and that
> the capability is developed further,  it would be useful for the
> supported FEC schemes to be documented somewhere, so as to enable
> interoperability.  I'll leave it to those who worked on the document to
> clarify where the RTX/FEC section is headed.  

To my understanding unified plan includes this because it is considered
a general requirement to support this type of functionality for any
multi media stream usages of RTP sessions as indicated by SDP. Thus the
discussion makes sense in the context of unified plan as being important
to show that it can be done.

When it comes to the rtp-usage document I don't see any issues with
negotiating the usage of FEC mechanism of the implementors choice using
what ever negotiation mechanism one has, at this stage presumably SDP
O/A. However, unless the WG can come to a consensus on what the FEC
mechanisms and their usages is to be, describing all the options and
deployment choices is a significant task that I frankly don't see as
improving interoperability. Thus, unless the WG do come to consensus on
some specific choices I find it difficult to write anything in RTP usage.

Bernard, if you have an idea of what you like to see here, can you
please propose some text.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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On 2013-08-26 20:00, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Section 5.1 says: 
> 
>    These extensions are not necessary for interoperability; an RTP endpoint
>    that does not implement these extensions will work correctly, but
> 
>    might offer poor performance. 
> 
> 
>  Colin said: 
> 
> "I suggest that TMMBR sets an envelope within which the congestion
> control should operate, but shouldn't be required for congestion control
> to work. The others might be useful in conjunction with a congestion
> control algorithm, to suggest how a new rate is to be achieved, but also
> aren't required."
> 
> [BA] It's certainly possible to implement sender-side congestion control
> that wouldn't need TMMBR.   Also, there is the circuit breaker document.
>  However, Section 5.1.6 states the following: 
> 
>    WebRTC senders are REQUIRED to implement support for TMMBR messages,
>    and MUST follow bandwidth limitations set by a TMMBR message received
>    for their SSRC.  The sending of TMMBR requests is OPTIONAL.
> 
> 
> 
> As noted in RFC 2119 Section 6: 
> 
>    In particular, they MUST only be used where it is
>    actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>    potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  For
>    example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method
>    on implementors where the method is not required for
>    interoperability.
> 
> 
> 
> On reading section 5.1.6, I had assumed that the TMMBR mandate derived
> from a need to ensure interoperability of a potential (receiver-side)
> congestion control mechanism.   But if that's not the case, then based
> on RFC 2119 Section 6, I don't understand why TMMBR is REQUIRED.  Also,
> doesn't TMMBR have utility beyond conferencing scenarios as stated in
> Section 5.1?  Not sure I would lump TMMBR in with FIR, PLI, SLI, etc. 

TMMBR has at least usage in two different scenarios for RTCWEB. The
first is the upstream flow control for conferences being implemented
with a central node acting as RTP mixer, and thus breaking congestion
control loops between itself and each participant, thus requiring a flow
control mechanism for a upstream media source. Implementing sender side
congestion control TMMBR is required to make the upstream flow control
function. This is documented in Section 5.1.6

The second usage is allowing proprietary receiver based congestion
control to have a method of effecting the media sender. If you don't
have receiver based congestion control, then you don't use it. But your
peer may have and send your implementation TMMBR requests. See section 7.

>From a system interoperability point of view I personally see each of
these making TMMBR required. Combining the two reasons makes it even
stronger reason to have TMMBR as required functionality. Thus I think
there are good reasons fulfilling the requirements RFC 2119 lays out to
mandate TMMBR.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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References: <066.c4782f9f452cb0c5049d3712dcfdcda1@trac.tools.ietf.org> <329CDAE3-283C-4543-AADA-00D3A1D6E6AB@csperkins.org> <BLU169-W105CC7D0FA6DAF024BE05C293490@phx.gbl> <521C4510.6000402@ericsson.com>
From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 04:25:10 -0700
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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Comments below.

On Aug 26, 2013, at 23:18, "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.c=
om> wrote:
>> Section 5.1 says:=20
>>=20
>>   These extensions are not necessary for interoperability; an RTP endpoin=
t
>>   that does not implement these extensions will work correctly, but
>>   might offer poor performance.=20
>=20
> TMMBR has at least usage in two different scenarios for RTCWEB. The
> first is the upstream flow control for conferences being implemented
> with a central node acting as RTP mixer, and thus breaking congestion
> control loops between itself and each participant, thus requiring a flow
> control mechanism for a upstream media source. Implementing sender side
> congestion control TMMBR is required to make the upstream flow control
> function. This is documented in Section 5.1.6
>=20
> The second usage is allowing proprietary receiver based congestion
> control to have a method of effecting the media sender. If you don't
> have receiver based congestion control, then you don't use it. But your
> peer may have and send your implementation TMMBR requests. See section 7.
>=20
> =46rom a system interoperability point of view I personally see each of
> these making TMMBR required. Combining the two reasons makes it even
> stronger reason to have TMMBR as required functionality. Thus I think
> there are good reasons fulfilling the requirements RFC 2119 lays out to
> mandate TMMBR.

[BA] So why not say something along those lines? The statement in Section 5.=
1 doesn't seem to apply to TMMBR.=

From Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com  Tue Aug 27 05:53:14 2013
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From: <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>
To: <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>, <rtcweb@ietf.org>, <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Subject: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Hi,

I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) as=
 a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requireme=
nts summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:


o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect

      method,

If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware of, it wou=
ld not be possible without this as a fallback capability.

Markus



From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 ext Bernard Aboba
Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt

The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the various=
 traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or s=
hould not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the rec=
ommendations as follows:
5<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01#section-5>.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers





   For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a

   browser needs to be able to



   o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,



   o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect

      method,



   o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of

      the default STUN ports 3478/5349,



   o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to

      use TLS,



   o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done

      for HTTP,



   o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the

      TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,



   o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media

      streams or data channels,



   o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a

      local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the

      internet,



   o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the

      RTCWEB peer.

> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-e=
nterprise.com>
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; harald@alvestrand.no<mailto:=
harald@alvestrand.no>
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>
> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the=
 case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 a=
ssuming we can get this adopted.
>
> Regards
> Andy

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I would support the adoption of the NAT=
 and Firewall considerations (</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span style=3D"color:window=
text">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considera=
tions-01</span></a>)
 as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requir=
ements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP conne=
ct<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=
&#8217;m aware of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capa=
bility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_____replyseparator"></a><b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
>From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounce=
s@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.tx=
t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The NAT/Firewall consider=
ations document does go into detail on the various traversal scenarios, whi=
ch helps inform the discussion of what should or should not
 be supported in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5 summarizes the recomme=
ndations as follows:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<h2><a name=3D"section-5"></a><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-h=
utton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp; Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers<o:p><=
/o:p></span></h2>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data =
channels a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using t=
he HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80=
/443 instead of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/5349,<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the =
TURN server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN a=
s currently done<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connec=
tion with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized port range fo=
r UDP-based media<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration script about t=
he presence of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it for sendin=
g UDP traffic to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connec=
tion to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; From:
<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@sieme=
ns-enterprise.com</a><br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">
harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 &#43;0000<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 2.2 &quot;Middle Box Related Functions&quot; should also I ass=
ume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and r=
eference
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-cons=
iderations-01">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-=
01</a> assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards<br>
&gt; Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From emcho@sip-communicator.org  Tue Aug 27 05:54:35 2013
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References: <E44893DD4E290745BB608EB23FDDB7620A0906A4@008-AM1MPN1-041.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 14:53:55 +0200
Message-ID: <CAPvvaaK-TbUKxpfSbcm_WKYj+URhgP4hWwRXxNEqkY6rmMTf9w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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+1

Emil

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM,  <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideratio=
ns-01)
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important=
 to
> me:
>
>
>
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>
>       method,
>
>
>
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, it
> would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
>
>
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
> To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>
>
>
> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the vario=
us
> traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or
> should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the
> recommendations as follows:
>
> 5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>
>
>
>
>
>    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>
>    browser needs to be able to
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>
>       method,
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>
>       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
>
>
>
>    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>
>       use TLS,
>
>
>
>    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>
>       for HTTP,
>
>
>
>    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>
>       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
>
>
>
>    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>
>       streams or data channels,
>
>
>
>    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>
>       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>
>       internet,
>
>
>
>    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>
>       RTCWEB peer.
>
>
>
>> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>
>> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover th=
e
>> case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideratio=
ns-01
>> assuming we can get this adopted.
>>
>> Regards
>> Andy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>



--=20
Emil Ivov, Ph.D.                       67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead                           France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org                        PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
https://jitsi.org                       FAX:   +33.1.77.62.47.31

From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 07:34:45 2013
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From: Victor Pascual <victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:34:37 +0200
To: "<Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>" <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>
Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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I agree

-Victor

On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:53 PM, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> =20
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) as=
 a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requiremen=
ts summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:
> =20
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>       method,
> =20
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=E2=80=99m aware o=
f, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> =20
> Markus
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
> To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> =20
> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the variou=
s traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or s=
hould not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the reco=
mmendations as follows:
>=20
> 5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>=20
> =20
> =20
>    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>    browser needs to be able to
> =20
>    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
> =20
>    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>       method,
> =20
>    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
> =20
>    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>       use TLS,
> =20
>    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>       for HTTP,
> =20
>    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
> =20
>    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>       streams or data channels,
> =20
>    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>       internet,
> =20
>    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>       RTCWEB peer.
> =20
>=20
> > From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
> > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> >=20
> > Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover th=
e case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 as=
suming we can get this adopted.
> >=20
> > Regards
> > Andy
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree<br></div><div><br></div><div>-=
Victor</div><div><br>On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:53 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mark=
us.Isomaki@nokia.com">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I would support the adoption of the NAT a=
nd Firewall considerations (</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hu=
tton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"=
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-=
01</span></a>)
 as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the require=
ments summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connec=
t<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;">If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=E2=
=80=99m aware of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capabi=
lity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_____replyseparator"></a><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:=
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;"> <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.or=
g</a>; Harald Alvestrand<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The NAT/Firewall considerat=
ions document does go into detail on the various traversal scenarios, which h=
elps inform the discussion of what should or should not
 be supported in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5 summarizes the recommen=
dations as follows:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<h2><a name=3D"section-5"></a><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hu=
tton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">.&nbsp; Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers<o:p></o:p=
></span></h2>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data c=
hannels a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using th=
e HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/=
443 instead of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/5349,<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the T=
URN server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as=
 currently done<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connect=
ion with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized port range for=
 UDP-based media<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration script about th=
e presence of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it for sending=
 UDP traffic to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connect=
ion to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; From:
<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@siemen=
s-enterprise.com</a><br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"=
mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">
harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover t=
he case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consi=
derations-01">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-0=
1</a> assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards<br>
&gt; Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>rtcweb mailing list</span><br><s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: "markus.isomaki@nokia.com" <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Another +1.

Mary.


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 7:53 AM, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote:

>  Hi,****
>
> ** **
>
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01)
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important
> to me:****
>
> ** **
>
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect****
>
>       method,****
>
> ** **
>
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, it
> would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.****
>
> ** **
>
> Markus****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ext Bernard Aboba
> *Sent:* 21 August, 2013 00:44
> *To:* Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt**=
*
> *
>
> ** **
>
> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the
> various traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what
> should or should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5
> summarizes the recommendations as follows: ****
> 5<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerati=
ons-01#section-5>.
> Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a***=
*
>
>    browser needs to be able to****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect***=
*
>
>       method,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of***=
*
>
>       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to****
>
>       use TLS,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done**=
**
>
>       for HTTP,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the****
>
>       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media*=
***
>
>       streams or data channels,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a**=
**
>
>       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the****
>
>       internet,****
>
> ** **
>
>    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the****
>
>       RTCWEB peer.****
>
> ** **
>
> > From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
> > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> >
> > Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover
> the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01assuming we can get this adopted.
> >
> > Regards
> > Andy****
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>

--001a11c3bed4c5ef1804e4eef286
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Another +1.<div><br></div><div>Mary.</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at=
 7:53 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I would support the adoption of the NAT=
 and Firewall considerations (</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:windowtext">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-=
firewall-considerations-01</span></a>)
 as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requir=
ements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre>o=A0 connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<=
u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 method,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=
=92m aware of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capabili=
ty.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Markus<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"140bfd5ec9bbaae5______replyseparator"></a=
><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; Harald Alvestrand<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.tx=
t<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The NAT/Firewall consider=
ations document does go into detail on the various traversal scenarios, whi=
ch helps inform the discussion of what should or should not
 be supported in terms of transport.=A0 Section 5 summarizes the recommenda=
tions as follows:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<h2><a name=3D"140bfd5ec9bbaae5_section-5"></a><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">.=A0 Requirements f=
or RTCWEB-enabled browsers<u></u><u></u></span></h2>

<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channe=
ls a<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 browser needs to be able to<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,<u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP c=
onnect<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 method,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 inst=
ead of<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 the default STUN ports 3478/5349,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre> =A0=A0o=A0 upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN serv=
er to<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 use TLS,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as current=
ly done<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 for HTTP,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with=
 the<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,<u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-bas=
ed media<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 streams or data channels,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 learn from the proxy configuration script about the presen=
ce of a<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic t=
o the<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 internet,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0 o=A0 support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to t=
he<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 RTCWEB peer.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; From:
<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com" target=3D"_blank">a=
ndrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a><br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.o=
rg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:harald@alvestrand.no" target=3D"_blank">
harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 2.2 &quot;Middle Box Related Functions&quot; should also I ass=
ume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and r=
eference
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-cons=
iderations-01" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-=
01</a> assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards<br>
&gt; Andy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:48:50 +0200
From: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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+1 a must have to be able doing any serious business with webrtc..

El 27/08/2013 16:34, Victor Pascual escribió:
> I agree
>
> -Victor
>
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:53 PM, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com 
> <mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations 
>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) 
>> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the 
>> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems 
>> important to me:
>>
>> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>>        method,
>>
>> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware of, 
>> it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org> 
>> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Bernard Aboba
>> *Sent:* 21 August, 2013 00:44
>> *To:* Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; 
>> Harald Alvestrand
>> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>
>> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the 
>> various traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of 
>> what should or should not be supported in terms of transport.  
>> Section 5 summarizes the recommendations as follows:
>>
>>
>>     5
>>     <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5>.
>>     Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>>
>>   
>>   
>>     For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>>     browser needs to be able to
>>   
>>     o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
>>   
>>     o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>>        method,
>>   
>>     o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>>        the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
>>   
>>     o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>>        use TLS,
>>   
>>     o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>>        for HTTP,
>>   
>>     o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>>        TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
>>   
>>     o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>>        streams or data channels,
>>   
>>     o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>>        local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>>        internet,
>>   
>>     o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>>        RTCWEB peer.
>>
>> > From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com 
>> <mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
>> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; harald@alvestrand.no 
>> <mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>
>> > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
>> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>> >
>> > Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume 
>> cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and 
>> reference 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 
>> assuming we can get this adopted.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Andy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">+1 a must have to be able doing any
      serious business with webrtc.. <br>
      <br>
      El 27/08/2013 16:34, Victor Pascual escribi&oacute;:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:06050F70-E759-4EE0-8061-803A1CEE8D5F@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <div>I agree<br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>-Victor</div>
      <div><br>
        On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:53 PM, &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
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          <div class="WordSection1">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I
                would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall
                considerations (</span><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span
                    style="color:windowtext">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</span></a>)
                as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much
                agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5.
                Especially this one seems important to me:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If
                we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I&#8217;m
                aware of, it would not be possible without this as a
                fallback capability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      name="_____replyseparator"></a><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>;
                      Harald Alvestrand<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                      draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The
                    NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into
                    detail on the various traversal scenarios, which
                    helps inform the discussion of what should or should
                    not be supported in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5
                    summarizes the recommendations as follows:
                    <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <h2><a moz-do-not-send="true" name="section-5"></a><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span></a><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp;
                    Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers<o:p></o:p></span></h2>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/5349,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;
                      From:
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a><br>
                      &gt; To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>;
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">
                        harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
                      &gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>
                      &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                      draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<br>
                      &gt; <br>
                      &gt; Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions"
                      should also I assume cover the case of using a
                      HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and
                      reference
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>
                      assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
                      &gt; <br>
                      &gt; Regards<br>
                      &gt; Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
          <span>rtcweb mailing list</span><br>
          <span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a></span><br>
          <span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a></span><br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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+1


On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations 
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) 
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the 
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems 
> important to me:
>
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>        method,
>
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware of, 
> it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
>
> Markus
>
> *From:*rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *ext Bernard Aboba
> *Sent:* 21 August, 2013 00:44
> *To:* Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>
> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the 
> various traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what 
> should or should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 
> summarizes the recommendations as follows:
>
>
>     5
>     <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5>.
>     Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>
>   
>   
>     For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>     browser needs to be able to
>   
>     o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
>   
>     o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>        method,
>   
>     o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>        the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
>   
>     o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>        use TLS,
>   
>     o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>        for HTTP,
>   
>     o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>        TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
>   
>     o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>        streams or data channels,
>   
>     o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>        local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>        internet,
>   
>     o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>        RTCWEB peer.
>
> > From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com 
> <mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; harald@alvestrand.no 
> <mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>
> > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> >
> > Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume 
> cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and 
> reference 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 
> assuming we can get this adopted.
> >
> > Regards
> > Andy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">+1<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I
            would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall
            considerations (</span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span
                style="color:windowtext">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</span></a>)
            as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree
            with the requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially
            this one seems important to me:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If
            we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I&#8217;m
            aware of, it would not be possible without this as a
            fallback capability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  name="_____replyseparator"></a><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; Harald
                  Alvestrand<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The
                NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail
                on the various traversal scenarios, which helps inform
                the discussion of what should or should not be supported
                in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5 summarizes the
                recommendations as follows:
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <h2><a moz-do-not-send="true" name="section-5"></a><a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span></a><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp;
                Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers<o:p></o:p></span></h2>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/5349,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;
                  From:
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a><br>
                  &gt; To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">
                    harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
                  &gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>
                  &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should
                  also I assume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or
                  an enterprise TURN server and reference
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>
                  assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Regards<br>
                  &gt; Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Bo Burman <bo.burman@ericsson.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02.txt
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Based on the previous discussion thread http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/we=
b/rtcweb/current/msg08501.html, I believe there is support to add some text=
 into this document.

I thus propose to add the following text at the end of section 3:

If other suitable audio codecs are available to the browser to use,=20
it is RECOMMENDED that they are also included in the offer in order=20
to maximize the possibility to establish the session without the need=20
for audio transcoding

Cheers,
Bo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: den 2 augusti 2013 18:30
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers=
 Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
> 	Title           : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements
> 	Author(s)       : Jean-Marc Valin
>                           Cary Bran
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 6
> 	Date            : 2013-08-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements
>    for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-02
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion until the htmlized version and diff are
> available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.=
ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

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From: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:55:46 -0500
To: Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com>
Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Agree that enterprises need this plus a few other TURN extensions.=20

I support adoption as WG draft.=20

- Alan -



On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com=
> wrote:

> +1
>=20
>=20
> On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>> =20
>> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) a=
s a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requireme=
nts summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:
>> =20
>> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>>       method,
>> =20
>> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=E2=80=99m aware o=
f, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
>> =20
>> Markus
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f ext Bernard Aboba
>> Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
>> To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>> =20
>> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the vario=
us traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or s=
hould not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the reco=
mmendations as follows:
>>=20
>> 5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>>=20
>> =20
>> =20
>>    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>>    browser needs to be able to
>> =20
>>    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
>> =20
>>    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>>       method,
>> =20
>>    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>>       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
>> =20
>>    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>>       use TLS,
>> =20
>>    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>>       for HTTP,
>> =20
>>    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>>       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
>> =20
>>    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>>       streams or data channels,
>> =20
>>    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>>       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>>       internet,
>> =20
>>    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>>       RTCWEB peer.
>> =20
>>=20
>> > From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
>> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
>> > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
>> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>> >=20
>> > Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover t=
he case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 a=
ssuming we can get this adopted.
>> >=20
>> > Regards
>> > Andy
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Agree that enterprises nee=
d this plus a few other TURN extensions.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I su=
pport adoption as WG draft.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>- Alan -<br><br><=
div><br></div></div><div><br>On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Salvatore Loreto &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com">salvatore.loreto@ericsso=
n.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=

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      <br>
      On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mail=
to:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
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      <div class=3D"WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I
            would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall
            considerations (</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:windowtext">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat=
-firewall-considerations-01</span></a>)
            as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree
            with the requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially
            this one seems important to me:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTT=
P connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If
            we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=E2=80=99m
            aware of, it would not be possible without this as a
            fallback capability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
        <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" name=3D"___=
__replyseparator"></a><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                  <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:rtcwe=
b-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-=
bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbrev=
iated" href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; Harald
                  Alvestrand<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The
                NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail
                on the various traversal scenarios, which helps inform
                the discussion of what should or should not be supported
                in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5 summarizes the
                recommendations as follows:
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <h2><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" name=3D"section-5"></a><a moz-do=
-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-na=
t-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">5</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quo=
t;">.&nbsp;
                Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers<o:p></o:p></span></=
h2>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media strea=
ms or data channels a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP a=
nd TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP pr=
oxy using the HTTP connect<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(=
s) ports 80/443 instead of<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/=
5349,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connect=
ion to the TURN server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure=
 for TURN as currently done<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-rel=
ayed connection with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STU=
N/TURN,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized po=
rt range for UDP-based media<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration scr=
ipt about the presence of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it=
 for sending UDP traffic to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct m=
edia connection to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;
                  From:
                  <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@s=
iemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a><br>
                  &gt; To: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:rtcweb=
@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:h=
arald@alvestrand.no">
                    harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
                  &gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000<br>
                  &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should
                  also I assume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or
                  an enterprise TURN server and reference
                  <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01">http://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>
                  assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Regards<br>
                  &gt; Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb=
@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>rtcweb mailing list</span><br><s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Avasarala, Ranjit (NSN - IN/Bangalore)" <ranjit.avasarala@nsn.com>
To: "ext Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com" <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>, "bernard_aboba@hotmail.com" <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "harald@alvestrand.no" <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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--_000_E54AEADE791D51469F45E7FBB96439150B1139SGSIMBX001nsnintr_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I too agree that this functionality is required for enterprises where devic=
es could be behind NAT. But in IMS we may not need as UEs are globally reac=
hable.

Regards
Ranjit
Sent from Nokia Lumia
________________________________
From: ext Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com<mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>
Sent: =FD27-=FD08-=FD2013 18:23
To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com<mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>; andrew.hut=
ton@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>; rt=
cweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; harald@alvestrand.no<mailto:harald@a=
lvestrand.no>
Subject: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-r=
tcweb-transports-00.txt)

Hi,

I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) as=
 a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requireme=
nts summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:


o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect

      method,

If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, it w=
ould not be possible without this as a fallback capability.

Markus



From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 ext Bernard Aboba
Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt

The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the various=
 traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or s=
hould not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the rec=
ommendations as follows:
5<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01#section-5>.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers





   For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a

   browser needs to be able to



   o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,



   o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect

      method,



   o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of

      the default STUN ports 3478/5349,



   o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to

      use TLS,



   o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done

      for HTTP,



   o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the

      TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,



   o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media

      streams or data channels,



   o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a

      local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the

      internet,



   o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the

      RTCWEB peer.

> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-e=
nterprise.com>
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>; harald@alvestrand.no<mailto:=
harald@alvestrand.no>
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>
> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover the=
 case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01 a=
ssuming we can get this adopted.
>
> Regards
> Andy

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<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I too agree t=
hat this functionality is required for enterprises where devices could be b=
ehind NAT. But in IMS we may not need as UEs are globally reachable.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Ranjit<br>
Sent from Nokia Lumia</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<hr>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:=
bold">From:
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com">ext Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a></sp=
an><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:=
bold">Sent:
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=FD27=
-=FD08-=FD2013 18:23</span><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:=
bold">To:
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com">bernard_aboba@hotmail.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@sieme=
ns-enterprise.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:h=
arald@alvestrand.no">
harald@alvestrand.no</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:=
bold">Subject:
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">[rtcw=
eb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transpor=
ts-00.txt)</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I would support the adoption of the NA=
T and Firewall considerations (</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01"><span style=3D"color:windo=
wtext">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consider=
ations-01</span></a>)
 as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requir=
ements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<pre>o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP conne=
ct</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,</pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=
=92m aware of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capabili=
ty.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Markus</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_____replyseparator"></a><b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 August, 2013 00:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.tx=
t</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The NAT/Firewall consider=
ations document does go into detail on the various traversal scenarios, whi=
ch helps inform the discussion of what should or should not
 be supported in terms of transport.&nbsp; Section 5 summarizes the recomme=
ndations as follows:
</span></p>
<h2><a name=3D"section-5"></a><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-h=
utton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01#section-5"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp; Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers</span=
></h2>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data =
channels a</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; browser needs to be able to</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,</p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using t=
he HTTP connect</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; method,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80=
/443 instead of</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the default STUN ports 3478/5349,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the =
TURN server to</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use TLS,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN a=
s currently done</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for HTTP,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connec=
tion with the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,</pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; use a preconfigured or standardized port range fo=
r UDP-based media</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; streams or data channels,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; learn from the proxy configuration script about t=
he presence of a</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local TURN server and use it for sendin=
g UDP traffic to the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; internet,</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connec=
tion to the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTCWEB peer.</pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; From:
<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com">andrew.hutton@sieme=
ns-enterprise.com</a><br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">
harald@alvestrand.no</a><br>
&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 &#43;0000<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 2.2 &quot;Middle Box Related Functions&quot; should also I ass=
ume cover the case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and r=
eference
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-cons=
iderations-01">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-=
01</a> assuming we can get this adopted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards<br>
&gt; Andy</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E54AEADE791D51469F45E7FBB96439150B1139SGSIMBX001nsnintr_--

From cb.list6@gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 09:05:05 2013
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:05:03 -0700
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From: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>
To: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
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Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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The I-D says this

"As last resort in order to cater

   for NAT/FWs with address and port dependent filtering characteristics"

What is the first resort?

<ascending soap box>

Specifically, i would like the document to say that end points and
intermediate systems should support IPv6 and attempt IPv6
connectivity...which means they must support IPv6.

IPv6 is a middle box / NAT avoidance mechanism, but these early days
of WebRTC show no support for IPv6.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D797262

The draft should explicitly describe that secure e2e connectivity
should be attempted first with all address families, not short cuts
that make WebRTC more fragile by relying on middle boxes (TURN).

I am not opposed to this draft, and find TURN to be a useful way to
police traffic and bridge disparate address families, but it is a
slippery slope where we try to avoid one middle box with another.

CB

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Alan Johnston
<alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agree that enterprises need this plus a few other TURN extensions.
>
> I support adoption as WG draft.
>
> - Alan -
>
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Salvatore Loreto
> <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
> On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideratio=
ns-01)
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important=
 to
> me:
>
>
>
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>
>       method,
>
>
>
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, it
> would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
>
>
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
> To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>
>
>
> The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the vario=
us
> traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should or
> should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes the
> recommendations as follows:
>
> 5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
>
>
>
>
>
>    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
>
>    browser needs to be able to
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>
>       method,
>
>
>
>    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
>
>       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
>
>
>
>    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
>
>       use TLS,
>
>
>
>    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
>
>       for HTTP,
>
>
>
>    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
>
>       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
>
>
>
>    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based media
>
>       streams or data channels,
>
>
>
>    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
>
>       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
>
>       internet,
>
>
>
>    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
>
>       RTCWEB peer.
>
>
>
>> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
>>
>> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover th=
e
>> case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideratio=
ns-01
>> assuming we can get this adopted.
>>
>> Regards
>> Andy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "markus.isomaki@nokia.com" <markus.isomaki@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:

> Hi,
> =20
> I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01) =
as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the require=
ments summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:
> =20
> o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
>       method,
> =20
> If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, it=
 would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> =20
> Markus
> =20
> =20

Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are trying to=
 get more information about that and info about if the TURN server needs to=
 run on the TURN port or port 443.=20

Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going to =
ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can follo=
w it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.=20





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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:34:15 -0500
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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bed494633b04e4f071ed
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.co=
m
> wrote:

>
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01)
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important
> to me:
> >
> > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> >       method,
> >
> > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, =
it
> would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
>
> Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are trying
> to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server need=
s
> to run on the TURN port or port 443.
>
> Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going t=
o
> ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can
> follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.
>
[MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting that any
discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as WG item
should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring to more general
discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC discussion?
There's not been at all a huge amount of discussion on this RTCWEB mailing
list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the cross postings to
the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole lot of extra email
in my mailbox. [/MB]

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@=
cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br>
On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:markus.isomaki@nokia.com">ma=
rkus.isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (<=
a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consi=
derations-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtc=
web-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>) as a WG document. Or to be more pre=
cise, I very much agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5. Espe=
cially this one seems important to me:<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; o =A0connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect<=
br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 method,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of,=
 it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Markus<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are try=
ing to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server ne=
eds to run on the TURN port or port 443.<br>
<br>
Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going to =
ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can follo=
w it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.<br></blockquote=
>
<div>[MB] I&#39;m slightly puzzled by this suggestion. =A0Are you suggestin=
g that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed a=
s WG item should be on a separate mailing list? =A0Or are you referring to =
more general discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC di=
scussion? =A0 There&#39;s not been at all a huge amount of discussion on th=
is RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the=
 cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole l=
ot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c3bed494633b04e4f071ed--

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrot=
e:

>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.=
com> wrote:
>=20
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01=
) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requi=
rements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:
> >
> > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> >       method,
> >
> > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of, =
it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
>=20
> Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are trying =
to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server needs =
to run on the TURN port or port 443.
>=20
> Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going t=
o ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can fol=
low it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.
> [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting that an=
y discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as WG item=
 should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring to more genera=
l discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC discussion?  =
 There's not been at all a huge amount of discussion on this RTCWEB mailing=
 list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the cross postings t=
o the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole lot of extra email=
 in my mailbox. [/MB]
>=20

Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs a=
nd TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org list.=20

You can go here to sign up at:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw

That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft and=
 the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was creat=
ed more or less for that draft.=20

The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks t=
hat do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow the=
 firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email we so=
metimes see on rtcweb.=20

Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)






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Thanks for the clarification.  Your last point explains the logic to me and
I do agree.

Mary.


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.co=
m
> wrote:

>
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <
> fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration=
s-01)
> as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important
> to me:
> > >
> > > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> > >       method,
> > >
> > > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of=
,
> it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are tryin=
g
> to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server need=
s
> to run on the TURN port or port 443.
> >
> > Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going
> to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can
> follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.
> > [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting that
> any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as WG
> item should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring to more
> general discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC
> discussion?   There's not been at all a huge amount of discussion on this
> RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the
> cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole
> lot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]
> >
>
> Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs
> and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org list.
>
> You can go here to sign up at:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
>
> That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft
> and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was
> created more or less for that draft.
>
> The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks
> that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow
> the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email =
we
> sometimes see on rtcweb.
>
> Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)
>
>
>
>
>
>

--047d7bdc15646d676204e4f19de0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the clarification. =A0Your last point explains =
the logic to me and I do agree.=A0<div><br></div><div>Mary.=A0<br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 a=
t 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.b=
arnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:markus.isomaki@nokia.co=
m">markus.isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall consideratio=
ns (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-=
considerations-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutto=
n-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>) as a WG document. Or to be mor=
e precise, I very much agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5.=
 Especially this one seems important to me:<br>

&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; o =A0connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP con=
nect<br>
&gt; &gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 method,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m awar=
e of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Markus<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are tryi=
ng to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server nee=
ds to run on the TURN port or port 443.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are goin=
g to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can =
follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.<br>
&gt; [MB] I&#39;m slightly puzzled by this suggestion. =A0Are you suggestin=
g that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed a=
s WG item should be on a separate mailing list? =A0Or are you referring to =
more general discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC di=
scussion? =A0 There&#39;s not been at all a huge amount of discussion on th=
is RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the=
 cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole l=
ot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]<br>

&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div>Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, pro=
xies, NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the =A0<a href=3D"mailto:pn=
taw@ietf.org">pntaw@ietf.org</a> list.<br>
<br>
You can go here to sign up at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw</a><br>
<br>
That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft and=
 the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was creat=
ed more or less for that draft.<br>
<br>
The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks t=
hat do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow the=
 firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email we so=
metimes see on rtcweb.<br>

<br>
Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--047d7bdc15646d676204e4f19de0--

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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On 27 August 2013 10:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org list.

Can I request that you send a brief summary of what you believe to be
the scope of this discussion?

It seems obvious that draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations
fits here.  Does draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest also belong, or is the
behave WG looking after that now?

--Martin

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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations and draft-uberti-behave-turn-rest 
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On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wro=
te:

>  Doesdraft-uberti-behave-turn-restalso belong, or is the
> behave WG looking after that now?

Good question - I don't really know. My leaning is that the discussion of d=
raft-uberti-behave-turn-rest could also be on this new list. Any objections=
 to that?



From csp@csperkins.org  Tue Aug 27 14:36:17 2013
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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On 27 Aug 2013, at 12:25, Bernard Aboba <Bernard_Aboba@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
> Comments below.
>=20
> On Aug 26, 2013, at 23:18, "Magnus Westerlund" =
<magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>> Section 5.1 says:=20
>>>=20
>>>  These extensions are not necessary for interoperability; an RTP =
endpoint
>>>  that does not implement these extensions will work correctly, but
>>>  might offer poor performance.=20
>>=20
>> TMMBR has at least usage in two different scenarios for RTCWEB. The =
first is the upstream flow control for conferences being implemented =
with a central node acting as RTP mixer, and thus breaking congestion =
control loops between itself and each participant, thus requiring a flow =
control mechanism for a upstream media source. Implementing sender side =
congestion control TMMBR is required to make the upstream flow control =
function. This is documented in Section 5.1.6
>>=20
>> The second usage is allowing proprietary receiver based congestion =
control to have a method of effecting the media sender. If you don't =
have receiver based congestion control, then you don't use it. But your =
peer may have and send your implementation TMMBR requests. See section =
7.
>>=20
>> =46rom a system interoperability point of view I personally see each =
of these making TMMBR required. Combining the two reasons makes it even =
stronger reason to have TMMBR as required functionality. Thus I think =
there are good reasons fulfilling the requirements RFC 2119 lays out to =
mandate TMMBR.
>=20
> [BA] So why not say something along those lines? The statement in =
Section 5.1 doesn't seem to apply to TMMBR.

The draft does discuss both those issues, in Sections 5.1.6 and 7.1. Can =
you say what you think is missing from those?

--=20
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/




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From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com>
To: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>, Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> cb.list6
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:35 PM
> To: Alan Johnston
> Cc: <rtcweb@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-=
ietf-
> rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
>=20
> The I-D says this
>=20
> "As last resort in order to cater
>=20
>    for NAT/FWs with address and port dependent filtering characteristics"
>=20
> What is the first resort?
>=20
> <ascending soap box>
>=20
> Specifically, i would like the document to say that end points and
> intermediate systems should support IPv6 and attempt IPv6
> connectivity...which means they must support IPv6.
>=20
> IPv6 is a middle box / NAT avoidance mechanism, but these early days
> of WebRTC show no support for IPv6.
>=20
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D797262
>=20
> The draft should explicitly describe that secure e2e connectivity
> should be attempted first with all address families, not short cuts
> that make WebRTC more fragile by relying on middle boxes (TURN).
>=20
> I am not opposed to this draft, and find TURN to be a useful way to
> police traffic and bridge disparate address families, but it is a
> slippery slope where we try to avoid one middle box with another.

Yes, this method may not work with Enterprises that use Firewalls that perf=
orm DPI on HTTP, detect port misuse etc and for HTTPS either act as TLS Pro=
xy or monitor the TLS handshake for valid certificates etc. Enterprises in =
addition to firewalls also could use cloud connector which re-directs HTTP/=
HTTPS traffic to cloud based "Security As A Service" for DPI, reputation ba=
sed filtering etc.
=20
-Tiru.

>=20
> CB
>=20
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Alan Johnston
> <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Agree that enterprises need this plus a few other TURN extensions.
> >
> > I support adoption as WG draft.
> >
> > - Alan -
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Salvatore Loreto
> > <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > +1
> >
> >
> > On 8/27/13 2:53 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations
> > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerat=
ions-
> 01)
> > as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the
> > requirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems importa=
nt to
> > me:
> >
> >
> >
> > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> >
> >       method,
> >
> >
> >
> > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware of, it
> > would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> >
> >
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of
> > ext Bernard Aboba
> > Sent: 21 August, 2013 00:44
> > To: Hutton, Andrew; rtcweb@ietf.org; Harald Alvestrand
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > The NAT/Firewall considerations document does go into detail on the var=
ious
> > traversal scenarios, which helps inform the discussion of what should o=
r
> > should not be supported in terms of transport.  Section 5 summarizes th=
e
> > recommendations as follows:
> >
> > 5.  Requirements for RTCWEB-enabled browsers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >    For the purpose of relaying RTCWEB media streams or data channels a
> >
> >    browser needs to be able to
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  connect to a TURN server via UDP, TCP and TLS,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> >
> >       method,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  connect to a TURN server via the HTTP(s) ports 80/443 instead of
> >
> >       the default STUN ports 3478/5349,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  upgrade the HTTP proxy-relayed connection to the TURN server to
> >
> >       use TLS,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  use the same proxy selection procedure for TURN as currently done
> >
> >       for HTTP,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  switch the usage of the HTTP proxy-relayed connection with the
> >
> >       TURN server from HTTP to STUN/TURN,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  use a preconfigured or standardized port range for UDP-based medi=
a
> >
> >       streams or data channels,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  learn from the proxy configuration script about the presence of a
> >
> >       local TURN server and use it for sending UDP traffic to the
> >
> >       internet,
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  support ICE-TCP for TCP-based direct media connection to the
> >
> >       RTCWEB peer.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com
> >> To: rtcweb@ietf.org; harald@alvestrand.no
> >> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:28 +0000
> >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt
> >>
> >> Section 2.2 "Middle Box Related Functions" should also I assume cover =
the
> >> case of using a HTTP Proxy or an enterprise TURN server and reference
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerat=
ions-
> 01
> >> assuming we can get this adopted.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Wed Aug 28 03:11:27 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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I am not convinced that moving the work to another mailing list is really u=
seful I think it just creates confusion and probably there will be a lot of=
 cross post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.

But if it gets things moving then I am ok with it.

What I would ask is that the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNTAW which c=
learly describes the purpose of the new mailing list.

Regards
Andy


From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Mary Barnes
Sent: 27 August 2013 18:58
To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ie=
tf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)

Thanks for the clarification.  Your last point explains the logic to me and=
 I do agree.

Mary.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.co=
m<mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:

On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com<mailt=
o:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.=
com<mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com<mailto:markus.isoma=
ki@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01=
) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requi=
rements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:
> >
> > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> >       method,
> >
> > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware of, it=
 would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
>
> Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are trying =
to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server needs =
to run on the TURN port or port 443.
>
> Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going t=
o ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can fol=
low it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.
> [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting that an=
y discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as WG item=
 should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring to more genera=
l discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC discussion?  =
 There's not been at all a huge amount of discussion on this RTCWEB mailing=
 list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the cross postings t=
o the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole lot of extra email=
 in my mailbox. [/MB]
>
Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs a=
nd TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org<mailto:pntaw@ietf.o=
rg> list.

You can go here to sign up at:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw

That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft and=
 the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was creat=
ed more or less for that draft.

The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks t=
hat do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow the=
 firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email we so=
metimes see on rtcweb.

Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am not convinced that m=
oving the work to another mailing list is really useful I think it just cre=
ates confusion and probably there will be a lot of cross
 post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But if it gets things mov=
ing then I am ok with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What I would ask is that =
the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNTAW which clearly describes the purp=
ose of the new mailing list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtcweb-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mary Barnes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 August 2013 18:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Cullen Jennings (fluffy)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rtcweb@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: d=
raft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the clarification. &nbsp;Your last point =
explains the logic to me and I do agree.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mary.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (f=
luffy) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.b=
arnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:markus.isomaki@nokia.co=
m">markus.isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall consideratio=
ns (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-=
considerations-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutto=
n-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01</a>)
 as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the requir=
ements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to me:<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; o &nbsp;connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP =
connect<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; method,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I&#8217;m =
aware of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Markus<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are tryi=
ng to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server nee=
ds to run on the TURN port or port 443.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are goin=
g to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can =
follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.<br>
&gt; [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion. &nbsp;Are you suggesting=
 that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as=
 WG item should be on a separate mailing list? &nbsp;Or are you referring t=
o more general discussions or are you considering
 this to be a more WebRTC discussion? &nbsp; There's not been at all a huge=
 amount of discussion on this RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be over=
load. I personally find the cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing=
 list to generate a whole lot of extra
 email in my mailbox. [/MB]<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Yes, I am asking that=
 the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs and TURN servers inter=
act is done on the &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:pntaw@ietf.org">pntaw@ietf.org</=
a> list.<br>
<br>
You can go here to sign up at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw</a><br>
<br>
That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft and=
 the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was creat=
ed more or less for that draft.<br>
<br>
The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks t=
hat do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow the=
 firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email we so=
metimes see on rtcweb.<br>
<br>
Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BA28C4MCHP04MSXglobal_--

From fluffy@cisco.com  Wed Aug 28 07:35:27 2013
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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
Thread-Index: AQHOo/vGMfWWhU1VdUel9zi0y8xRZg==
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 14:34:59 +0000
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References: <E44893DD4E290745BB608EB23FDDB7620A0906A4@008-AM1MPN1-041.mgdnok.nokia.com> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB116648FE2@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAHBDyN6+PAPa7RmgYmWTirPJBVRHLdPvLxO0DQjHNULO3c5fBg@mail.gmail.com> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB1166496FE@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAHBDyN5XjRr5GM9zN4hrGOmO4DHsVYq7jo4C34QfO=KCALBKHw@mail.gmail.com> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BA28C4@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Andy,=20

Lets review the history here. At the last IETF, the chairs blocked out time=
 to meet with you and we  talked about several ways forward and asked what =
you wanted. You made it clear you were OK with this plan. Given we went and=
 did exactly what we discussed then after running it by various ADs and oth=
ers, why exactly are you complaining about this now ?






On Aug 28, 2013, at 4:11 AM, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterp=
rise.com> wrote:

> I am not convinced that moving the work to another mailing list is really=
 useful I think it just creates confusion and probably there will be a lot =
of cross post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.=20
> =20
> But if it gets things moving then I am ok with it.
> =20
> What I would ask is that the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNTAW which=
 clearly describes the purpose of the new mailing list.
> =20
> Regards
> Andy
> =20
> =20
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Mary Barnes
> Sent: 27 August 2013 18:58
> To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-=
ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
> =20
> Thanks for the clarification.  Your last point explains the logic to me a=
nd I do agree.=20
> =20
> Mary.=20
> =20
>=20
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.=
com> wrote:
>=20
> On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>=20
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisc=
o.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall considerations (=
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-=
01) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I very much agree with the req=
uirements summarized in Section 5. Especially this one seems important to m=
e:
> > >
> > > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP connect
> > >       method,
> > >
> > > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I=92m aware of=
, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are tryin=
g to get more information about that and info about if the TURN server need=
s to run on the TURN port or port 443.
> >
> > Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are going=
 to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that others can f=
ollow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb traffic.
> > [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting that =
any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed as WG it=
em should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring to more gene=
ral discussions or are you considering this to be a more WebRTC discussion?=
   There's not been at all a huge amount of discussion on this RTCWEB maili=
ng list that I find it to be overload. I personally find the cross postings=
 to the W3C list and this mailing list to generate a whole lot of extra ema=
il in my mailbox. [/MB]
> >
>=20
> Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies, NATs=
 and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.orglist.
>=20
> You can go here to sign up at:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
>=20
> That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft a=
nd the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list was cre=
ated more or less for that draft.
>=20
> The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security folks=
 that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to follow t=
he firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume of email we =
sometimes see on rtcweb.
>=20
> Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Wed Aug 28 07:45:16 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
Thread-Index: AQHOo08E27a/ucy0Ek2PLjFYNTFWcZmqYdpAgAAtjICAACJmMA==
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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Hi Cullen,

Just expressing my opinion that multiple mailing lists don't really help he=
re but hopefully I will be proved wrong. The important thing is to make som=
e progress.

The plan we have ended up with was certainly not my first choice but I am h=
appy that there is now a plan in place and we can move on.

Regards
Andy



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
> Sent: 28 August 2013 15:35
> To: Hutton, Andrew
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
>=20
>=20
> Andy,
>=20
> Lets review the history here. At the last IETF, the chairs blocked out
> time to meet with you and we  talked about several ways forward and
> asked what you wanted. You made it clear you were OK with this plan.
> Given we went and did exactly what we discussed then after running it
> by various ADs and others, why exactly are you complaining about this
> now ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 28, 2013, at 4:11 AM, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-
> enterprise.com> wrote:
>=20
> > I am not convinced that moving the work to another mailing list is
> really useful I think it just creates confusion and probably there will
> be a lot of cross post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.
> >
> > But if it gets things moving then I am ok with it.
> >
> > What I would ask is that the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNTAW
> which clearly describes the purpose of the new mailing list.
> >
> > Regards
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mary Barnes
> > Sent: 27 August 2013 18:58
> > To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification.  Your last point explains the logic to
> me and I do agree.
> >
> > Mary.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes
> <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall
> considerations (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-
> firewall-considerations-01) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I
> very much agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5.
> Especially this one seems important to me:
> > > >
> > > > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP
> connect
> > > >       method,
> > > >
> > > > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware
> of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> > > >
> > > > Markus
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are
> trying to get more information about that and info about if the TURN
> server needs to run on the TURN port or port 443.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are
> going to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that
> others can follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb
> traffic.
> > > [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting
> that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed
> as WG item should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring
> to more general discussions or are you considering this to be a more
> WebRTC discussion?   There's not been at all a huge amount of
> discussion on this RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. I
> personally find the cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing
> list to generate a whole lot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]
> > >
> >
> > Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies,
> NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.orglist.
> >
> > You can go here to sign up at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
> >
> > That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations
> draft and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That
> list was created more or less for that draft.
> >
> > The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security
> folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to
> follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume
> of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.
> >
> > Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Wed Aug 28 08:24:50 2013
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 10:24:47 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHBDyN7XwPd2vJuBSr3UMNBcd3qpM+ct0NVJpkgmmq1zFScg6g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
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Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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--001a11c3bed4fa766204e503962f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have a couple questions for clarification.  My understanding of the new
list is that it will provide a more targeted venue for these discussions
and allow folks that don't want their mailbox to be filled up with other
RTCWEB stuff to be engaged in the discussions (e.g., security and I would
think some of the BEHAVE guys).  Is that correct?   I'm assuming that since
this new list is a non-WG list that there are no binding decisions made in
that group, but rather any common agreements on that mailing list MUST be
vetted and any documents, etc MUST be approved in the RTCWEB WG. Is that
correct?

Thanks,
Mary.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Hutton, Andrew <
andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com> wrote:

> Hi Cullen,
>
> Just expressing my opinion that multiple mailing lists don't really help
> here but hopefully I will be proved wrong. The important thing is to make
> some progress.
>
> The plan we have ended up with was certainly not my first choice but I am
> happy that there is now a plan in place and we can move on.
>
> Regards
> Andy
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
> > Sent: 28 August 2013 15:35
> > To: Hutton, Andrew
> > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
> >
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > Lets review the history here. At the last IETF, the chairs blocked out
> > time to meet with you and we  talked about several ways forward and
> > asked what you wanted. You made it clear you were OK with this plan.
> > Given we went and did exactly what we discussed then after running it
> > by various ADs and others, why exactly are you complaining about this
> > now ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 28, 2013, at 4:11 AM, "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-
> > enterprise.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I am not convinced that moving the work to another mailing list is
> > really useful I think it just creates confusion and probably there will
> > be a lot of cross post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.
> > >
> > > But if it gets things moving then I am ok with it.
> > >
> > > What I would ask is that the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNTAW
> > which clearly describes the purpose of the new mailing list.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Mary Barnes
> > > Sent: 27 August 2013 18:58
> > > To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> > > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
> > >
> > > Thanks for the clarification.  Your last point explains the logic to
> > me and I do agree.
> > >
> > > Mary.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> > <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes
> > <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
> > <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, markus.isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall
> > considerations (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-
> > firewall-considerations-01) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I
> > very much agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5.
> > Especially this one seems important to me:
> > > > >
> > > > > o  connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using the HTTP
> > connect
> > > > >       method,
> > > > >
> > > > > If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks I'm aware
> > of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.
> > > > >
> > > > > Markus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? We are
> > trying to get more information about that and info about if the TURN
> > server needs to run on the TURN port or port 443.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now we are
> > going to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that
> > others can follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb
> > traffic.
> > > > [MB] I'm slightly puzzled by this suggestion.  Are you suggesting
> > that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being proposed
> > as WG item should be on a separate mailing list?  Or are you referring
> > to more general discussions or are you considering this to be a more
> > WebRTC discussion?   There's not been at all a huge amount of
> > discussion on this RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. I
> > personally find the cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing
> > list to generate a whole lot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies,
> > NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.orglist.
> > >
> > > You can go here to sign up at:
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
> > >
> > > That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations
> > draft and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That
> > list was created more or less for that draft.
> > >
> > > The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security
> > folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to
> > follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume
> > of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.
> > >
> > > Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > rtcweb mailing list
> > > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--001a11c3bed4fa766204e503962f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I have a couple questions for clarification. =A0My underst=
anding of the new list is that it will provide a more targeted venue for th=
ese discussions and allow folks that don&#39;t want their mailbox to be fil=
led up with other RTCWEB stuff to be engaged in the discussions (e.g., secu=
rity and I would think some of the BEHAVE guys). =A0Is that correct? =A0 I&=
#39;m assuming that since this new list is a non-WG list that there are no =
binding decisions made in that group, but rather any common agreements on t=
hat mailing list MUST be vetted and any documents, etc MUST be approved in =
the RTCWEB WG. Is that correct? =A0<div>
<br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Hutto=
n, Andrew <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-ent=
erprise.com" target=3D"_blank">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Cullen,<br>
<br>
Just expressing my opinion that multiple mailing lists don&#39;t really hel=
p here but hopefully I will be proved wrong. The important thing is to make=
 some progress.<br>
<br>
The plan we have ended up with was certainly not my first choice but I am h=
appy that there is now a plan in place and we can move on.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Andy<br>
<div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.=
com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 28 August 2013 15:35<br>
&gt; To: Hutton, Andrew<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Andy,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Lets review the history here. At the last IETF, the chairs blocked out=
<br>
&gt; time to meet with you and we =A0talked about several ways forward and<=
br>
&gt; asked what you wanted. You made it clear you were OK with this plan.<b=
r>
&gt; Given we went and did exactly what we discussed then after running it<=
br>
&gt; by various ADs and others, why exactly are you complaining about this<=
br>
&gt; now ?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 28, 2013, at 4:11 AM, &quot;Hutton, Andrew&quot; &lt;andrew.hut=
ton@siemens-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://enterprise.com" target=3D"_blank">enterprise.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I am not convinced that moving the work to another mailing list i=
s<br>
&gt; really useful I think it just creates confusion and probably there wil=
l<br>
&gt; be a lot of cross post between RTCWEB and PNTAW.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; But if it gets things moving then I am ok with it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; What I would ask is that the chairs post a mail to RTCWEB and PNT=
AW<br>
&gt; which clearly describes the purpose of the new mailing list.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards<br>
&gt; &gt; Andy<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org">rtcweb-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Mary Barnes<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 27 August 2013 18:58<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action=
:<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks for the clarification. =A0Your last point explains the log=
ic to<br>
&gt; me and I do agree.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mary.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Mary Barnes<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)<b=
r>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:markus.isomak=
i@nokia.com">markus.isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I would support the adoption of the NAT and Firewall<br=
>
&gt; considerations (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtc=
web-nat-" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-=
nat-</a><br>
&gt; firewall-considerations-01) as a WG document. Or to be more precise, I=
<br>
&gt; very much agree with the requirements summarized in Section 5.<br>
&gt; Especially this one seems important to me:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; o =A0connect to a TURN server via a HTTP proxy using th=
e HTTP<br>
&gt; connect<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 method,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If we want WebRTC to work from many corporate networks =
I&#39;m aware<br>
&gt; of, it would not be possible without this as a fallback capability.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Markus<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Have you tried if this work with your corporate firewalls? W=
e are<br>
&gt; trying to get more information about that and info about if the TURN<b=
r>
&gt; server needs to run on the TURN port or port 443.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks, Cullen with my co chair hat on. PS - Real Soon Now w=
e are<br>
&gt; going to ask people to move this diction to a separate list so that<br=
>
&gt; others can follow it without having to wade through all the rtcweb<br>
&gt; traffic.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; [MB] I&#39;m slightly puzzled by this suggestion. =A0Are you=
 suggesting<br>
&gt; that any discussion of the hutton rtcweb draft (which is being propose=
d<br>
&gt; as WG item should be on a separate mailing list? =A0Or are you referri=
ng<br>
&gt; to more general discussions or are you considering this to be a more<b=
r>
&gt; WebRTC discussion? =A0 There&#39;s not been at all a huge amount of<br=
>
&gt; discussion on this RTCWEB mailing list that I find it to be overload. =
I<br>
&gt; personally find the cross postings to the W3C list and this mailing<br=
>
&gt; list to generate a whole lot of extra email in my mailbox. [/MB]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxi=
es,<br>
&gt; NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the =A0pntaw@ietf.orglist.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; You can go here to sign up at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations=
<br>
&gt; draft and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That<=
br>
&gt; list was created more or less for that draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as securi=
ty<br>
&gt; folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able t=
o<br>
&gt; follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume=
<br>
&gt; of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks. Cullen (with my co-chair hat on)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; rtcweb mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtcweb mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org">rtcweb@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c3bed4fa766204e503962f--

From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Thu Aug 29 02:32:25 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
Thread-Index: AQHOpAK9LYFwFhkUWEKOLfFTcbhtS5mr5YGA
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:32:14 +0000
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References: <E44893DD4E290745BB608EB23FDDB7620A0906A4@008-AM1MPN1-041.mgdnok.nokia.com> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB116648FE2@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAHBDyN6+PAPa7RmgYmWTirPJBVRHLdPvLxO0DQjHNULO3c5fBg@mail.gmail.com> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB1166496FE@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAHBDyN5XjRr5GM9zN4hrGOmO4DHsVYq7jo4C34QfO=KCALBKHw@mail.gmail.com> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BA28C4@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB11664B704@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BA30BB@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <CAHBDyN7XwPd2vJuBSr3UMNBcd3qpM+ct0NVJpkgmmq1zFScg6g@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On: 28 August 2013 16:25 Mary Barnes wrote:

>=20
> I have a couple questions for clarification. =A0My understanding of the
> new list is that it will provide a more targeted venue for these
> discussions and allow folks that don't want their mailbox to be filled
> up with other RTCWEB stuff to be engaged in the discussions (e.g.,
> security and I would think some of the BEHAVE guys). =A0Is that correct?
> =A0 I'm assuming that since this new list is a non-WG list that there are
> no binding decisions made in that group, but rather any common
> agreements on that mailing list MUST be vetted and any documents, etc
> MUST be approved in the RTCWEB WG. Is that correct?
>=20


This refers to the new "pntaw" mailing list and in a previous message Culle=
n Jennings stated:=20

> Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies,
> NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org list.
>=20
> That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft
> and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list
> was created more or less for that draft.
>=20
> The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security
> folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to
> follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume
> of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.


The purpose of the pntaw mailing list as I see it is therefore is to allow =
us to come to a point when we can make a decision on how the solution to th=
e issue of how webrtc browsers interact with web proxies, NAT/Firewalls and=
 TURN servers and this includes deciding on whether to adopt draft-hutton-r=
tcweb-nat-firewall-considerations.

There is of course some overlap here with other areas and wg's like SEC, be=
have, and httpbis so if the chairs and AD's think a new list is the way for=
ward then ok but I hope the goal is to make a decision on what solution to =
adopt sometime soon.

Andy




From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 08:10:19 2013
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--047d7bf0ec2218ce3304e5177c59
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Hutton, Andrew <
andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com> wrote:

> On: 28 August 2013 16:25 Mary Barnes wrote:
>
> >
> > I have a couple questions for clarification.  My understanding of the
> > new list is that it will provide a more targeted venue for these
> > discussions and allow folks that don't want their mailbox to be filled
> > up with other RTCWEB stuff to be engaged in the discussions (e.g.,
> > security and I would think some of the BEHAVE guys).  Is that correct?
> >   I'm assuming that since this new list is a non-WG list that there are
> > no binding decisions made in that group, but rather any common
> > agreements on that mailing list MUST be vetted and any documents, etc
> > MUST be approved in the RTCWEB WG. Is that correct?
> >
>
>
> This refers to the new "pntaw" mailing list and in a previous message
> Cullen Jennings stated:
>
[MB] I was aware of that, but I interpreted the "should be adopted" as more
of a recommendation from the non-WG mailing list as opposed to a binding
RTCWEB WG decision. [/MB]

>
> > Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies,
> > NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the  pntaw@ietf.org list.
> >
> > That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations draft
> > and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list
> > was created more or less for that draft.
> >
> > The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security
> > folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able to
> > follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume
> > of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.
>
>
> The purpose of the pntaw mailing list as I see it is therefore is to allow
> us to come to a point when we can make a decision on how the solution to
> the issue of how webrtc browsers interact with web proxies, NAT/Firewalls
> and TURN servers and this includes deciding on whether to adopt
> draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations.
>

 [MB] So I missed the subtlety in Cullen's initial post that the
expectation is that the decision whether or not to accept your draft is
being made on a non-WG mailing list.  I don't think that's the right thing
to do.   I can agree that folks on pntaw can make a recommendation to
RTCWEB, but that needs to be fully documented and then the decision to
adopt a document  for the WG deliverable should be made on the WG mailing
list. Not everyone on the RTCWEB mailing list will subscribe to pntaw, so I
can't see how a decision on behalf of the WG can be made on a non-WG
mailing list. [/MB]

 There is of course some overlap here with other areas and wg's like SEC,
> behave, and httpbis so if the chairs and AD's think a new list is the way
> forward then ok but I hope the goal is to make a decision on what solution
> to adopt sometime soon.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>

--047d7bf0ec2218ce3304e5177c59
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Hutton, Andrew <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com" target=3D"_blank=
">andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"i=
m">
On: 28 August 2013 16:25 Mary Barnes wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have a couple questions for clarification. =A0My understanding of th=
e<br>
&gt; new list is that it will provide a more targeted venue for these<br>
&gt; discussions and allow folks that don&#39;t want their mailbox to be fi=
lled<br>
&gt; up with other RTCWEB stuff to be engaged in the discussions (e.g.,<br>
&gt; security and I would think some of the BEHAVE guys). =A0Is that correc=
t?<br>
&gt; =A0 I&#39;m assuming that since this new list is a non-WG list that th=
ere are<br>
&gt; no binding decisions made in that group, but rather any common<br>
&gt; agreements on that mailing list MUST be vetted and any documents, etc<=
br>
&gt; MUST be approved in the RTCWEB WG. Is that correct?<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>This refers to the new &quot;pntaw&quot; mailing list and in a previo=
us message Cullen Jennings stated:<br></blockquote><div>[MB] I was aware of=
 that, but I interpreted the &quot;should be adopted&quot; as more of a rec=
ommendation from the non-WG mailing list as opposed to a binding RTCWEB WG =
decision. [/MB]=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"i=
m">
<font class=3D"" color=3D"#222222"><br></font>
&gt; Yes, I am asking that the discussion of how webrtc clients, proxies,<b=
r>
&gt; NATs and TURN servers interact is done on the =A0<a href=3D"mailto:pnt=
aw@ietf.org">pntaw@ietf.org</a> list.<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; That includes the draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-fire=
wall-considerations draft<br>
&gt; and the topic of it it should be adopted by the rtcweb WG. That list<b=
r>
&gt; was created more or less for that draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The reason we want it on a seperate list is people such as security<br=
>
&gt; folks that do not currently subscribe to rtcweb@ietf want to be able t=
o<br>
&gt; follow the firewall discussions without having to deal with the volume=
<br>
&gt; of email we sometimes see on rtcweb.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>The purpose of the pntaw mailing list as I see it is therefore is to =
allow us to come to a point when we can make a decision on how the solution=
 to the issue of how webrtc browsers interact with web proxies, NAT/Firewal=
ls and TURN servers and this includes deciding on whether to adopt draft-hu=
tton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations.<br>
</blockquote><div>=A0</div><div>=A0[MB] So I missed the subtlety in Cullen&=
#39;s initial post that the expectation is that the decision whether or not=
 to accept your draft is being made on a non-WG mailing list. =A0I don&#39;=
t think that&#39;s the right thing to do. =A0 I can agree that folks on pnt=
aw can make a recommendation to RTCWEB, but that needs to be fully document=
ed and then the decision to adopt a document =A0for the WG deliverable shou=
ld be made on the WG mailing list. Not everyone on the RTCWEB mailing list =
will subscribe to pntaw, so I can&#39;t see how a decision on behalf of the=
 WG can be made on a non-WG mailing list. [/MB]</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;marg=
in-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
=A0There is of course some overlap here with other areas and wg&#39;s like =
SEC, behave, and httpbis so if the chairs and AD&#39;s think a new list is =
the way forward then ok but I hope the goal is to make a decision on what s=
olution to adopt sometime soon.<br>

<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7bf0ec2218ce3304e5177c59--

From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Thu Aug 29 09:51:40 2013
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:51:32 -0700
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2013 16:51:31.0215 (UTC) FILETIME=[031879F0:01CEA4D8]
Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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On Aug 29, 2013, at 8:11, "Mary Barnes" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

> [MB] So I missed the subtlety in Cullen's initial post that the expectatio=
n is that the decision whether or not to accept your draft is being made on a=
 non-WG mailing list.  I don't think that's the right thing to do.   I can a=
gree that folks on pntaw can make a recommendation to RTCWEB, but that needs=
 to be fully documented and then the decision to adopt a document  for the W=
G deliverable should be made on the WG mailing list. Not everyone on the RTC=
WEB mailing list will subscribe to pntaw, so I can't see how a decision on b=
ehalf of the WG can be made on a non-WG mailing list. [/MB]

[BA] I can certainly understand the desire to create a space where NAT/Firew=
all issues can be discussed, free of the high volume of other traffic on the=
 RTCWEB list. However, with respect to decisions, this seems more akin to a D=
esign Team effort which is brought back to a WG than an autonomous group wit=
h its own decision making capability. Ultimately the recommendations develop=
ed on this list need to be supported in WebRTC implementations if they are t=
o have meaning. RTCWEB WG is probably the best group to determine consensus f=
or that.


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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:24:17 -0700
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] #25: Section 5.1 Conferencing Extensions
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--_30cac856-6be9-4c47-b44e-4dc8272be9e6_
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Colin said:=20

"The draft does discuss both those issues=2C in Sections 5.1.6 and 7.1. Can=
 you say what you think is missing from those?"

[BA] My issue wasn't really with Sections 5.1.6 and 7.1 (or with the TMMBR =
mandate).  It was with the text in Section 5.1=2C which seems to contradict=
 the reasoning for mandating TMMBR.  As Magnus noted=2C TMMBR needs to be i=
mplemented to support congestion and flow control=2C which makes it more th=
an just a performance concern.  That puts it in a different category from F=
IR=2C for example.

 		 	   		  =

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<html>
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<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
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body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Colin said: <br><br>"The draft d=
oes discuss both those issues=2C in Sections 5.1.6 and 7.1. Can you say wha=
t you think is missing from those?"<br><br>[BA] My issue wasn't really with=
 Sections 5.1.6 and 7.1 (or with the TMMBR mandate).&nbsp=3B It was with th=
e text in Section 5.1=2C which seems to contradict the reasoning for mandat=
ing TMMBR.&nbsp=3B As Magnus noted=2C TMMBR needs to be implemented to supp=
ort congestion and flow control=2C which makes it more than just a performa=
nce concern.&nbsp=3B That puts it in a different category from FIR=2C for e=
xample.<br><div><br></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_30cac856-6be9-4c47-b44e-4dc8272be9e6_--

From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Thu Aug 29 23:00:30 2013
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Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT/Firewall considerations (RE: I-D Action:	draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-00.txt)
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WG,

The new mailing list is a non-wg mailing list. It will be a good place
to discuss and resolve issues around any proposal. The outcome of such
discussion in form of documents still needs to be handled through the WG
process. Which WG that is will depended on the content of a particular
document. Clearly documents that falls within this WG's charter will be
handled here.

Cheers

Magnus

On 2013-08-29 18:51, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> On Aug 29, 2013, at 8:11, "Mary Barnes" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> [MB] So I missed the subtlety in Cullen's initial post that the
>> expectation is that the decision whether or not to accept your
>> draft is being made on a non-WG mailing list.  I don't think that's
>> the right thing to do.   I can agree that folks on pntaw can make a
>> recommendation to RTCWEB, but that needs to be fully documented and
>> then the decision to adopt a document  for the WG deliverable
>> should be made on the WG mailing list. Not everyone on the RTCWEB
>> mailing list will subscribe to pntaw, so I can't see how a decision
>> on behalf of the WG can be made on a non-WG mailing list. [/MB]
> 
> [BA] I can certainly understand the desire to create a space where
> NAT/Firewall issues can be discussed, free of the high volume of
> other traffic on the RTCWEB list. However, with respect to decisions,
> this seems more akin to a Design Team effort which is brought back to
> a WG than an autonomous group with its own decision making
> capability. Ultimately the recommendations developed on this list
> need to be supported in WebRTC implementations if they are to have
> meaning. RTCWEB WG is probably the best group to determine consensus
> for that.
> 
> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list 
> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> 
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Thu Aug 29 23:08:38 2013
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Subject: [rtcweb] Purpose of PNTAW list
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Greetings RTCWEB,

As you have seen the chairs recently asked for the creation of a
non-working group mailing list called "pntaw" (For "Proxies, NATs, TURN
and webrtc").  The aim of that list is to enable folks involved in HTTP
proxy development, NAT Traversal, and TURN to have a focused discussion
on behavior of those systems in the presence of RTCWEB. Because we
wanted an overlap with a different set of folks than are typically
involved in RTCWEB (and because we occasionally have a flood of
messages), we requested the separate list and topic area.

It is not, however, planned to be a WG; if there is discussion there
that results in the need for protocol work, it will go to an existing
WG, possibly this one.

So, when should you start discussing an issue there rather than here?
If the primary purpose of a document is to describe or change the
behavior of a proxy, NAT, or TURN server, it goes there.  If not, it
stays here.  If a document currently mixes topic so that some discussion
is in a document but it is not the documents primary purpose, please
disucss with the chairs how to proceed.

Hope that helps,

Magnus Westerlund
Ted Hardie
Cullen Jennings


From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com  Fri Aug 30 03:46:59 2013
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
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On 2013-08-30 11:52, Harald Alvestrand wrote:=0A=
> On 08/30/2013 09:55 AM, Stefan H=E5kansson LK wrote:=0A=
=0A=
>> And perhaps we will with time see RTP/RTCP development where these=0A=
>> things could be signaled there rather than requiring SDP updates.=0A=
>=0A=
> ...if Ericsson's patent application on COP is either not granted or=0A=
> licensed in an acceptable fashion...=0A=
=0A=
I'm sure you're aware of that Ericsson is not alone of having made IPR =0A=
declarations related to COP.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>>              Harald=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> -------- Original Message --------=0A=
>>> Subject: 	New Version Notification for=0A=
>>> draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt=0A=
>>> Date: 	Mon, 26 Aug 2013 05:23:13 -0700=0A=
>>> From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org=0A=
>>> To: 	Harald T. Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Harald Alvestrand=0A=
>>> <harald@alvestrand.no>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt=0A=
>>> has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the=
=0A=
>>> IETF repository.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Filename:	 draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution=0A=
>>> Revision:	 03=0A=
>>> Title:		 Resolution Constraints in Web Real Time Communications=0A=
>>> Creation date:	 2013-08-26=0A=
>>> Group:		 Individual Submission=0A=
>>> Number of pages: 10=0A=
>>> URL:http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-constraints-re=
solution-03.txt=0A=
>>> Status:http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-constraints-res=
olution=0A=
>>> Htmlized:http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolu=
tion-03=0A=
>>> Diff:http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-alvestrand-constraints-re=
solution-03=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Abstract:=0A=
>>>       This document specifies the constraints necessary for a Javascrip=
t=0A=
>>>       application to successfully indicate to a browser that supports=
=0A=
>>>       WebRTC what resolutions it desires on a video stream.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       It also discusses the possible use of SDP to carry that informati=
on=0A=
>>>       between browsers.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion=0A=
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> The IETF Secretariat=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=

From harald@alvestrand.no  Fri Aug 30 03:52:04 2013
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-alvestrand-constraints-resolution-03.txt
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On 08/30/2013 12:46 PM, Stefan Håkansson LK wrote:
> On 2013-08-30 11:52, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
>> On 08/30/2013 09:55 AM, Stefan Håkansson LK wrote:
>>> And perhaps we will with time see RTP/RTCP development where these
>>> things could be signaled there rather than requiring SDP updates.
>> ...if Ericsson's patent application on COP is either not granted or
>> licensed in an acceptable fashion...
> I'm sure you're aware of that Ericsson is not alone of having made IPR
> declarations related to COP.
>

No, I had in fact missed Microsoft's filling. Thanks for pointing that out!


From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Fri Aug 30 04:48:57 2013
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From: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Purpose of PNTAW list
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One of the prime reasons for the PNTAW list was to discuss http://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-01.=20

I might be being pedantic but this draft discusses the behavior of browsers=
 in the presence of Web Proxies, Firewalls and TURN servers. It does not sp=
ecify the behavior or propose any change to the behavior of anything other =
than the WebRTC browser so according to the definition below discussion sho=
uld remain here. However I know that is not the intention of the chairs and=
 I will move discussion on this draft to PNTAW.

Sorry to raise this again but I previously argued for keeping this draft in=
 RTCWEB because it is all about WebRTC browser behavior and I still hope th=
at it will one day be adopted as a RTCWEB WG draft.

Regards
Andy





> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund
> Sent: 30 August 2013 07:09
> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: [rtcweb] Purpose of PNTAW list
>=20
> Greetings RTCWEB,
>=20
> As you have seen the chairs recently asked for the creation of a
> non-working group mailing list called "pntaw" (For "Proxies, NATs, TURN
> and webrtc").  The aim of that list is to enable folks involved in HTTP
> proxy development, NAT Traversal, and TURN to have a focused discussion
> on behavior of those systems in the presence of RTCWEB. Because we
> wanted an overlap with a different set of folks than are typically
> involved in RTCWEB (and because we occasionally have a flood of
> messages), we requested the separate list and topic area.
>=20
> It is not, however, planned to be a WG; if there is discussion there
> that results in the need for protocol work, it will go to an existing
> WG, possibly this one.
>=20
> So, when should you start discussing an issue there rather than here?
> If the primary purpose of a document is to describe or change the
> behavior of a proxy, NAT, or TURN server, it goes there.  If not, it
> stays here.  If a document currently mixes topic so that some
> discussion
> is in a document but it is not the documents primary purpose, please
> disucss with the chairs how to proceed.
>=20
> Hope that helps,
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
> Ted Hardie
> Cullen Jennings
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Fri Aug 30 06:51:20 2013
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: BUNDLE DISCUSION Q8 (NEW): SDP 'bundle-only' attribute
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Subject: [rtcweb] FW: BUNDLE DISCUSION Q8 (NEW): SDP 'bundle-only' attribute
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FYI,

If you're an SDP-, BUNDLE- and/or UP loving rtcwebist, you may be intereste=
d in this discussion on the MMUSIC list. Please send any possible comments =
and input to that list, to avoid cross-posting.

Regards,

Christer

From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Christer Holmberg
Sent: 30. elokuuta 2013 16:48
To: mmusic@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] BUNDLE DISCUSION Q8 (NEW): SDP 'bundle-only' attribute


Hi,

I started to draft some text for the definition of the SDP 'bundle-only' at=
tribute (my assumption is that it will be defined in draft-bundle).

Note that, at this point, I don't suggest any normative text regarding the =
usage of port zero in the SDP Offer, as we are still discussing that (the o=
utcome of that discussion may affect at least the last paragraph in section=
 x.2.1.).

Also note that I don't say anything about in which "scope/context" (webrtc =
etc) the usage of the attribute is allowed.

So, leaving the usage of port zero, and the scope question, aside for the m=
oment, please take a look and indicate whether you have any issues (at this=
 point, I ask you to focus on the technical stuff - and stuff which is uncl=
ear) with the text :)

Regards,

Christer


--------------------------


X.  SDP 'bundle-only' attribute

X.1.  General

This section defines a new SDP media-level attribute, 'bundle-only'. The at=
tribute
is used, in an SDP Offer, to indicate that an "m=3D" line, to which the att=
ribute
has been assigned, is only to be accepted by the Answerer if the Answerer k=
eeps
the "m=3D" line within the BUNDLE group to which the "m=3D" line is associa=
ted in the
SDP Offer.


X.2.  SDP Offer/Answer Procedures

X.2.1.  SDP Offer Procedures

When an Offerer sends an SDP Offer, which contains a BUNDLE group, it can a=
ssign the
SDP 'bundle-only' attribute to an "m=3D" line associated with the BUNDLE gr=
oup,
in order to request that the Answerer only accepts the "m=3D" line if is ke=
pt within
the BUNDLE group to which the "m=3D" line is associated in the SDP Offer.

An Offerer MUST NOT assign the SDP 'bundle-only' attribute to an "m=3D" lin=
e that is not
associated with a BUNDLE group.

If an Offerer receives an SDP Answer where an "m=3D" line, to which it assi=
gned an
'bundle-only' attribute in the associated Offer, has been removed from a BU=
NDLE group, but
has not been rejected ([ref-to-section- 6.5.2.]), the Offerer MUST send a n=
ew Offer, in which
it assigns a zero port value to the "m=3D" line.


X.2.2.  SDP Answerer Procedures

When an Answerer receives an SDP Offer ([ref-to-section- 6.5.]), the Answer=
er MAY choose
to remove an "m=3D" line out of a BUNDLE group ([ref-to-section- 6.5.2.]). =
If an SDP
'bundle-only' attribute has been assigned to such "m=3D" line, the Answerer=
 MUST reject
the "m=3D" line, according to the procedures in Section 6.5.3.

An Answerer MUST NOT insert an SDP 'bundle-only' attribute in an SDP Answer=
.





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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">FYI,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If you&#8217;re an SDP=
-, BUNDLE- and/or UP loving rtcwebist, you may be interested in this discus=
sion on the MMUSIC list. Please send any possible comments and input to tha=
t list, to avoid cross-posting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Christer<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mmusic-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 30. elokuuta 2013 16:48<br>
<b>To:</b> mmusic@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [MMUSIC] BUNDLE DISCUSION Q8 (NEW): SDP 'bundle-only' attri=
bute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">I started to draft some text for the definition of the SDP=
 'bundle-only' attribute (my assumption is that it will be defined in draft=
-bundle).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Note that, at this point, I don&#8217;t suggest any normat=
ive text regarding the usage of port zero in the SDP Offer, as we are still=
 discussing that (the outcome of that discussion may
 affect at least the last paragraph in section x.2.1.).<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Also note that I don&#8217;t say anything about in which &=
#8220;scope/context&#8221; (webrtc etc) the usage of the attribute is allow=
ed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">So, leaving the usage of port zero, and the scope question=
, aside for the moment, please take a look and indicate whether you have an=
y issues (at this point, I ask you to focus on
 the technical stuff &#8211; and stuff which is unclear) with the text :)<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Christer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">--------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">X.&nbsp; SDP 'bundle-only' attribute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">X.1.&nbsp; General<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">This section defines a new SDP media-level attribute, 'bun=
dle-only'. The attribute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">is used, in an SDP Offer, to indicate that an &quot;m=3D&q=
uot; line, to which the attribute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">has been assigned, is only to be accepted by the Answerer =
if the Answerer keeps
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">the &quot;m=3D&quot; line within the BUNDLE group to which=
 the &quot;m=3D&quot; line is associated in the
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">SDP Offer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">X.2.&nbsp; SDP Offer/Answer Procedures<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">X.2.1.&nbsp; SDP Offer Procedures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">When an Offerer sends an SDP Offer, which contains a BUNDL=
E group, it can assign the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">SDP 'bundle-only' attribute to an &quot;m=3D&quot; line as=
sociated with the BUNDLE group,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">in order to request that the Answerer only accepts the &qu=
ot;m=3D&quot; line if is kept within
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">the BUNDLE group to which the &quot;m=3D&quot; line is ass=
ociated in the SDP Offer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">An Offerer MUST NOT assign the SDP 'bundle-only' attribute=
 to an &quot;m=3D&quot; line that is not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">associated with a BUNDLE group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">If an Offerer receives an SDP Answer where an &quot;m=3D&q=
uot; line, to which it assigned an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">'bundle-only' attribute in the associated Offer, has been =
removed from a BUNDLE group, but<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">has not been rejected ([ref-to-section-</span>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">6.5.2.=
]), the Offerer MUST send a new Offer, in which<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">it assigns a zero port value to the &quot;m=3D&quot; line.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">X.2.2.&nbsp; SDP Answerer Procedures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">When an Answerer receives an SDP Offer ([ref-to-section-</=
span>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">6.5.])=
, the Answerer MAY choose
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">to remove an &quot;m=3D&quot; line out of a BUNDLE group (=
[ref-to-section-</span>
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">6.5.2.=
]). If an SDP <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">'bundle-only' attribute has been assigned to such &quot;m=
=3D&quot; line, the Answerer MUST reject
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">the &quot;m=3D&quot; line, according to the procedures in =
Section 6.5.3.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">An Answerer MUST NOT insert an SDP 'bundle-only' attribute=
 in an SDP Answer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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