From ekr@rtfm.com Wed Jan 1 07:41:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0102F1AE32B for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 07:41:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHBozjVx57LN for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 07:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7999F1AE30D for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 07:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so18005938wib.3 for ; Wed, 01 Jan 2014 07:41:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ecCCLLYCEvB7YKGNbRiB0oQ6JhdKXiURAH/au+bEC20=; b=afo9jWDotXXw8At9DLMCqpO66oMxVvIZx7zt7WNCp81jYuaDKQj9U7c/WS3dKTn2ZO eOBoWb7qwzYW/n+5YNxmV7M1ErY3vFIyH93+dwOX4w2OtKVmtudJA6A3XJG0sEUlXCXj IQ6jJ6B8D7UQ9k7MzfM0mFyFONcPdJa4XNtimwpFJgAELn5p6qumaPJxFVVDlmFu7bfk vZoMBHh+Nw+tPe+1igHE9XbhqQFJ3vQ3fOPggHeb38ieIzq2Usg+gjZPmtj0xpdGezk2 CYpL7r6UykcYOJiPRv2UGCG4eYCebXWQF1+j0akOS9fn5Xrl036q7Hzc90lUzGSDLSAw XEDg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk4gRo/a1aCR4K9ZoQNgAPTzavw2A0LnbfmW5S6APzsrG9/rdZFyNqeEMG4Ux1nCwNH4n1Q X-Received: by 10.194.240.41 with SMTP id vx9mr1474888wjc.70.1388590889425; Wed, 01 Jan 2014 07:41:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.54.194 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 07:40:49 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 07:40:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 15:41:38 -0000 Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for BUNDLE-only anyway. -Ekr On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Stefan H=E5kansson LK wrote: > On 01/01/14 02:47, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On 29 December 2013 16:02, Dave Taht wrote: >>> In current implementations, is it possible to force flows onto >>> different tuples? What are the other flaws in suggesting or requiring >>> a different tuple? >> >> There are quite a few ways to achieve this, depending on your >> configuration. All will require some fair amount of SDP cracking. >> >> If you have browsers at both ends, try creating two RTCPeerConnection >> objects on each, and treat one pair as audio and the other video. You >> can do this by telling the answerer that audio (or video) is not >> wanted in the offer (set port zero for the unwanted component). >> offer.sdp.replace(/m=3Daudio \d+ /, 'm=3Daudio 0 ') should be done befor= e >> sending the offer out (I don't know whether you can pass this to >> setLocalDescription safely, so I wouldn't). > > One way of doing it without any SDP cracking would be to create two > different MediaStream's out of the one obtained from getUserMedia; one > with the audio MediaStreamTrack only, and one with the video one. > > Then use one of them with one PeerConnection, and the other with another > PeerConnection, and assemble into a MediaStream with audio and video at > the receiving end. > > (And this becomes more straightforward if we move to adding tracks and > not streams to PeerConnection) > > If you want to use one PeerConnection only, I think the simplest way > would be to remove bundle from the SDP offer - either before setLocal or > before sending the offer to the remote endpoint. > >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com Wed Jan 1 10:10:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E643F1AE3A8 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id john2jFTJyLQ for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg21.ericsson.net [193.180.251.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA7C1AE3A7 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:36 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb28-b7f4e8e000000b43-62-52c45a15ce46 Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 67.BA.02883.51A54C25; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 19:10:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.201]) by ESESSHC010.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.48]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 19:10:07 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= To: Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 Thread-Index: AQHPBpNl43+EzjKLY0GXWhPSRXBosg== Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 18:10:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432583@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra5o1JEgg7+zZS32bDzJYrHi9Tl2 i2tn/jFarP3Xzu7A4rFz1l12jyVLfjJ5TH7cxhzAHMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVcXHtY9aCryIV Ny58ZmxgXCrYxcjJISFgIvFg8QcWCFtM4sK99WxdjFwcQgInGCXWH//HCJIQEljMKLH7rg6I zSYQKLF13wI2EFtEQEHi158TYM3MAqUSmxadBIsLC1hLrF/YzgRRYyNxaMlcVghbT+LUzmfM IDaLgIrE+ZZLYDW8Ar4S+w58g1q8iEni8qHvYIsZgS76fmoNE8QCcYlbT+YzQVwqILFkz3lm CFtU4uXjf6wQtpLE2sPboQ7Sk7gxdQobhK0tsWzha2aIZYISJ2c+YZnAKDoLydhZSFpmIWmZ haRlASPLKkbJ4tTi4tx0I0O93PTcEr3Uoszk4uL8PL3i1E2MwHg6uOW3xg7G7mv2hxilOViU xHmrZnYGCQmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamCMsXxlP2X5TvudWtrq4SwhzdKSUccf nZqzTWYht/vclTuKC5flfPyzbJtk7DL7z7rBZ0xnKVoqGQVN3RiaGbvi8H6xfzf18o+vm/Dp 3pzeK5eW/2PdeTzTe+bttP2MctMCnCKbV07n1mN2K7X+vvT7ZW/3Fe0xEm8KDbdkOk3Yrj4r 4dT5v29alViKMxINtZiLihMBeW2pAHUCAAA= Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 18:10:39 -0000 On 01/01/14 16:41, Eric Rescorla wrote:=0A= > Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue=0A= > of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for=0A= > BUNDLE-only anyway.=0A= =0A= I think it would be quite easy to add; for simplicity it could be just =0A= something stated when constructing the PeerConnection (nobundle).=0A= =0A= >=0A= > -Ekr=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Stefan H=E5kansson LK=0A= > wrote:=0A= >> On 01/01/14 02:47, Martin Thomson wrote:=0A= >>> On 29 December 2013 16:02, Dave Taht wrote:=0A= >>>> In current implementations, is it possible to force flows onto=0A= >>>> different tuples? What are the other flaws in suggesting or requiring= =0A= >>>> a different tuple?=0A= >>>=0A= >>> There are quite a few ways to achieve this, depending on your=0A= >>> configuration. All will require some fair amount of SDP cracking.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> If you have browsers at both ends, try creating two RTCPeerConnection= =0A= >>> objects on each, and treat one pair as audio and the other video. You= =0A= >>> can do this by telling the answerer that audio (or video) is not=0A= >>> wanted in the offer (set port zero for the unwanted component).=0A= >>> offer.sdp.replace(/m=3Daudio \d+ /, 'm=3Daudio 0 ') should be done befo= re=0A= >>> sending the offer out (I don't know whether you can pass this to=0A= >>> setLocalDescription safely, so I wouldn't).=0A= >>=0A= >> One way of doing it without any SDP cracking would be to create two=0A= >> different MediaStream's out of the one obtained from getUserMedia; one= =0A= >> with the audio MediaStreamTrack only, and one with the video one.=0A= >>=0A= >> Then use one of them with one PeerConnection, and the other with another= =0A= >> PeerConnection, and assemble into a MediaStream with audio and video at= =0A= >> the receiving end.=0A= >>=0A= >> (And this becomes more straightforward if we move to adding tracks and= =0A= >> not streams to PeerConnection)=0A= >>=0A= >> If you want to use one PeerConnection only, I think the simplest way=0A= >> would be to remove bundle from the SDP offer - either before setLocal or= =0A= >> before sending the offer to the remote endpoint.=0A= >>=0A= >>> _______________________________________________=0A= >>> rtcweb mailing list=0A= >>> rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb=0A= >>>=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> rtcweb mailing list=0A= >> rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb=0A= >=0A= =0A= From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 1 14:04:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD631ADE8B for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:04:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQPT0z_-oEB2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A9B1ADE8A for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85DEC39E029 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:04:29 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8IdzC+buAIC3 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:04:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:b5b9:e556:6c66:8afd] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:b5b9:e556:6c66:8afd]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1B3639E01E for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:04:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52C4910B.3000209@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 23:04:59 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 22:04:54 -0000 On 01/01/2014 04:40 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue > of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for > BUNDLE-only anyway. > > I've been thinking that the bundle-only properties of tracks belong with the SenderController. The decision on whether or not to do BUNDLE probably belongs to the PeerConnection initialization parameters. Should be easy enough to specify, once we all agree that we want it to exist. From ekr@rtfm.com Wed Jan 1 14:29:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73CED1ADF38 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:29:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HUXYC7p6CyJ for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f177.google.com (mail-we0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C5F1ADF34 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id u56so12044385wes.36 for ; Wed, 01 Jan 2014 14:29:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=VbQpV7FDFEspyUxKvJeeSRg2Hu/Zfm4SW+xG2hsitvo=; b=H8FukSLd1uyhuLi526phOhdBkRFdr+h+N0oXGoHYOp+tkVPY8ohfEpL1NNgBz7anmo +dLda+hc2b1DOl++UEmhp01lN2FJyu1fZCZt1IXJPMWt/Zxf9qTG3y21CUNqlnm6X8I3 EenGhscj7tzVpu75TitxyBHbAgitXyLevPCPFrwlW265wkocjUH6fVBUlSt6gCefMukV 49U6vHkjR879RPH7ruTvhGJAlY9y44IS91T6iIOVpE0wti6/yITW7QY5YyFtx+PHMYUm /P3oWJDp6ju4T1oy1z7L6DlyEvnEur5NFp0yBtOWVz8lT9xNqxb6AMBitHY+nkcryGW8 Gu6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnugUeNUDhV4mTKRXE8wl5mokai5BFz0LvnDE+mdhryOhyi7L1Oc+OKAudbipPFNVGsZXsE X-Received: by 10.194.240.41 with SMTP id vx9mr2367246wjc.70.1388615349729; Wed, 01 Jan 2014 14:29:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.54.194 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <52C4910B.3000209@alvestrand.no> References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52C4910B.3000209@alvestrand.no> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:28:29 -0800 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 22:29:19 -0000 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 01/01/2014 04:40 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue >> of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for >> BUNDLE-only anyway. >> >> > I've been thinking that the bundle-only properties of tracks belong with the > SenderController. > > The decision on whether or not to do BUNDLE probably belongs to the > PeerConnection initialization parameters. Should be easy enough to specify, > once we all agree that we want it to exist. Why do you think one wouldn't want to be able to individually specify bundle for some of the the m-lines but not others? -Ekr From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 1 23:16:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF631AD6D2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:16:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvBLEXM88nsI for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922AA1AD1F5 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB76E39E127; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 08:16:42 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CR44MvSQKnl6; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 08:16:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:60c4:879c:21ee:c898] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:60c4:879c:21ee:c898]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 002A439E080; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 08:16:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52C51279.2000304@alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 08:17:13 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Rescorla References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52C4910B.3000209@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070403000902000407080403" Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 07:16:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070403000902000407080403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/01/2014 11:28 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >> On 01/01/2014 04:40 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue >>> of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for >>> BUNDLE-only anyway. >>> >>> >> I've been thinking that the bundle-only properties of tracks belong with the >> SenderController. >> >> The decision on whether or not to do BUNDLE probably belongs to the >> PeerConnection initialization parameters. Should be easy enough to specify, >> once we all agree that we want it to exist. > Why do you think one wouldn't want to be able to individually specify > bundle for some of the the m-lines but not others? > I didn't say that! Some people have said that they want to be able to turn off the entire BUNDLE mechanism (no multiplexing at all) - with SDP manipulation, that can be accomplished by removing the relevant SDP-session-level line (a=group:BUNDLE); since this is an SDP session level attribute, it would seem to be reasonable to have the corresponding control on PeerConnection initialization. This is in addition to the disable/enable per track, which I would assume would be an extension to the current transmission controller proposal, which is at http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/wiki/Transport_Control#API_proposals - I haven't seen a specific proposal here yet, but it seems easy enough to make. (now officially back from vacation, so will respond a bit faster now. Happy new year, everyone!) --------------070403000902000407080403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 01/01/2014 11:28 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:

On 01/01/2014 04:40 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue
of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for
BUNDLE-only anyway.



I've been thinking that the bundle-only properties of tracks belong with the
SenderController.

The decision on whether or not to do BUNDLE probably belongs to the
PeerConnection initialization parameters. Should be easy enough to specify,
once we all agree that we want it to exist.

Why do you think one wouldn't want to be able to individually specify
bundle for some of the the m-lines but not others?
I didn't say that!

Some people have said that they want to be able to turn off the entire BUNDLE mechanism (no multiplexing at all) - with SDP manipulation, that can be accomplished by removing the relevant SDP-session-level line (a=group:BUNDLE); since this is an SDP session level attribute, it would seem to be reasonable to have the corresponding control on PeerConnection initialization.

This is in addition to the disable/enable per track, which I would assume would be an extension to the current transmission controller proposal, which is at http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/wiki/Transport_Control#API_proposals - I haven't seen a specific proposal here yet, but it seems easy enough to make.

(now officially back from vacation, so will respond a bit faster now. Happy new year, everyone!)



--------------070403000902000407080403-- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Jan 2 03:12:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F471AE605 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 03:12:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JaGcQe9DVDBX for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 03:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.alcatel.com (hoemail1.alcatel.com [192.160.6.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0841AE600 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 03:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by hoemail1.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s02BCfN1009023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Jan 2014 05:12:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s02BCdEa006474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Jan 2014 12:12:40 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.203]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 12:12:39 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Ron , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Stephan Wenger's choices Thread-Index: AQHPA+475bje5FxTBkSHUp91LX7/fpppyiSAgAATXgCAAA2ZAIAAIp+AgAMWEjCAAATJgIAEIRwg Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:12:39 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B0FE716@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <52BF037D.4050706@googlemail.com> <20131228183148.GI3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <20131228212423.GJ3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B0FDFAB@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20131230204917.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20131230204917.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Stephan Wenger's choices X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:12:58 -0000 1) My original mail was sent "over a shitty mobile connection" but it was s= ent using the normal screen of my laptop, not "on a 4 inch screen". Use of = mobile is dependent on circumstances of the user, and does not predicate wh= at will be used to render to the user. 2) You are making the assumption that communication mechanism attempted by = the user is the best available, and that the way you interpret the media to= be used is the best usage of the bandwidth for that purpose. When the only= description supplied by the user for that media is "video", that encompass= es a large range of possible use cases and it is inadvisable to assume that= any video will do. The signalling does not indicate that there is a deaf p= erson in the car with me, and therefore you should not assume the use case = has to encompass that unless I explicitly say so. Until I actually explicit= ly signal something, my expectations could be at one extreme or the other. I stand by my original comment. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron > Sent: 30 December 2013 20:49 > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Stephan Wenger's choices >=20 > On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 07:42:54PM +0000, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > A lot of this discussion seems to be predicated on the=20 > assumption that=20 > > if you cannot have the video that you want, then any video=20 > is acceptable. >=20 > You say that like you think "if I can't have the Ferrari that=20 > I want, or the ability to always use it everywhere, then I'd=20 > rather you just chop my legs off". >=20 > > Further it all seems to assume that we can have a lower order codec=20 > > with more bandwidth, whereas when one gets down bandwidth=20 > constraints=20 > > which mobile introduces, that does not necessarily apply. > >=20 > > This may be fine where one has two talking heads as a=20 > videostream, but=20 > > when it is two doctors discussing my latest scan, where the video=20 > > stream is a representation of that scan, it would seem to be less=20 > > acceptable to the doctors, and indeed to me. >=20 > If you're going to a doctor, who is going to diagnose you on=20 > a 4 inch screen over a shitty mobile connection, then you=20 > might get your first wish regardless of which codec is used! >=20 > What you need here is a better doctor, not a better worst=20 > case fallback codec. >=20 >=20 > > So an assumption that any video will do in the absence of a higher=20 > > order codec seems to me to be a false assumption for a=20 > number of use=20 > > cases. Given that this is the predicate for an MTI option=20 > that would=20 > > include a lower order codec for ensuring compatibility, the=20 > argument would seem partly flawed. >=20 > So when you've crashed your Ferrari, and there's blood=20 > spurting out of your neck, you'd rather the people your deaf=20 > and mute passenger has called for help would be totally blind=20 > as to what is going on and how to help you, than to have even=20 > some image they could show them, and be able to legibly sign=20 > the details of where you are and what help you need? >=20 > But I'm pretty sure there's lots of far less critical cases=20 > involving far fewer doctors, where being able to see=20 > _something_ is always going to trump being able to see nothing at all. >=20 >=20 > > I also suspect that in the two talking heads scenarios, where the=20 > > bandwidth required for the video starts impacting the=20 > quality of the=20 > > audio, then people will turn the video off; I know I have=20 > done this on Skype in the past. >=20 > And nobody is talking about taking that ability away from you. >=20 > We're talking about giving people the ability to make that=20 > decision for themselves, instead of ruling it out for no=20 > better reason than commercially tainted artificial snobbery,=20 > which considers video to be a premium product that only users=20 > prepared to be fleeced should enjoy. >=20 > There is absolutely no technical reason that we cannot make=20 > video available to almost everybody. And excellent video=20 > available to the people with the necessary means to avail=20 > themselves of upgrading to it. >=20 > There's only people saying "oh no, we can't let people have=20 > that", it doesn't fit with Our Current Business Model. =20 > (despite the fact we have shipped H.261 for years in=20 > commercial products we made lots of money on) >=20 >=20 > I quite agree with Eric, that we don't need to go any lower=20 > than we do absolutely need to. If I thought people might=20 > agree on Theora, I'd be talking about it - but even though=20 > Microsoft seem to be not worried at all about its IPR status,=20 > enough to ship Theora video on Bing, I still fear it will=20 > suffer from the same twofaced FUD that VP8 has. >=20 > So instead we are talking about the one and only codec that=20 > has both surprisingly acceptable quality for its age, and=20 > consensus of no IPR showstoppers. The relative fidelity of=20 > H.261 for video far exceeds the relative fidelity of G.711 for speech. >=20 > And nobody seems to be able to find an objective technical=20 > reason to rule it out. If we remember this isn't a vote,=20 > that would seem to be the big thing that the people opposing=20 > this really need to find if they actually want their=20 > objections to hold any weight at all. >=20 > Ron >=20 >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron > > > Sent: 28 December 2013 21:24 > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Stephan Wenger's choices > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 11:20:28AM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > >=20 > > > > Even if we mandate H.261, there is a reasonable chance of their=20 > > > > expectations being thwarted, since they might well=20 > expect that the=20 > > > > quality of video would be comparable, yet it will not. > > >=20 > > > You don't get much more thwarted than "no video for you",=20 > the only=20 > > > direction from there is up. Given a device with a ~4=20 > inch screen,=20 > > > viewed from a foot or two away, possibly in open daylight, maybe=20 > > > even while bouncing around on a bus or train or while=20 > walking, maybe=20 > > > with a bunch of scratches on the screen or a plastic=20 > cover, there's=20 > > > a fair bet that a significant percentage of viewers=20 > wouldn't be able=20 > > > to pick the difference between it and a perfectly lossless image=20 > > > stream anyway. > > >=20 > > > Is it going to be worse than NTSC television? How many=20 > people were=20 > > > happy enough to keep buying and watching those? > > > How many still would if it was all that they could get? > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Sure it might not look optimal on your studio monitor, or=20 > your floor=20 > > > to ceiling boardroom conference screen, or to eyes that=20 > have spent=20 > > > years picking out visual artifacts from lossy codecs. =20 > But we're not=20 > > > ruling out those people being able to use state of the art codecs=20 > > > that have no hope at all of running on minimal devices. We're=20 > > > looking for a baseline that poses the minimal challenge to=20 > > > everything being able to support it, for the broadest scope of=20 > > > interoperability. > > >=20 > > > Things that can will always negotiate up from that. What is the=20 > > > technical reason for setting the lowest bar so high that=20 > many of the=20 > > > supposed target devices will never be able to reach it? =20 > There would=20 > > > seem to be few real barriers to making a more inclusive=20 > choice here,=20 > > > so why don't we just do that and move on? > > >=20 > > > Ron > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > = From ron@debian.org Thu Jan 2 07:31:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD371AE561 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 07:31:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2YqHpORIMtvx for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 07:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A5D1AE570 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 07:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 03 Jan 2014 02:01:39 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A484F8F3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 02:01:34 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XLGA5GMJz2dy for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 02:01:33 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EDEDC4F902; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 02:01:33 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 02:01:33 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140102153133.GQ3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <52BF037D.4050706@googlemail.com> <20131228183148.GI3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <20131228212423.GJ3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B0FDFAB@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20131230204917.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B0FE716@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B0FE716@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Stephan Wenger's choices X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 15:31:52 -0000 On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 11:12:39AM +0000, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > 1) My original mail was sent "over a shitty mobile connection" but it was > sent using the normal screen of my laptop, not "on a 4 inch screen". Use of > mobile is dependent on circumstances of the user, and does not predicate what > will be used to render to the user. I'm not sure if that explains where the missing logic might have dropped out, but congratulations on being able to send some text with it just the same! > 2) You are making the assumption that communication mechanism attempted by > the user is the best available, and that the way you interpret the media to > be used is the best usage of the bandwidth for that purpose. When the only > description supplied by the user for that media is "video", that encompasses > a large range of possible use cases and it is inadvisable to assume that any > video will do. The signalling does not indicate that there is a deaf person > in the car with me, and therefore you should not assume the use case has to > encompass that unless I explicitly say so. Until I actually explicitly signal > something, my expectations could be at one extreme or the other. I don't know what kind of crazy windmill system you might be imagining to tilt at here, but I thought two things were plainly self evident in all of the discussions here. - Codecs can be negotiated (with whatever algorithm may be appropriate). - Nothing gets enabled without user consent. > I stand by my original comment. I think it fell down. If there was a point to it that you want to be understood, you might need to prop it back up again with some sturdier and more coherent logic. If your point is that "some codecs are better than others in certain circumstances", then sure, unlike for audio where we have Opus that dominates right across the board, for video this currently is still the case. And that's yet another reason to have a broader range to select from at negotiation time. It's not an argument for why a very simple, low complexity, maximally available codec isn't suitable as the MTI fallback of last resort. And it's not an argument for why we should tell people that might be able to use only that codec on particular devices that they'd be "better off with no video at all". In the context of your original comment, that would be be like _us_ telling _you_ that you'd be better off without any legs. Or that you'd be better off without any internet connection at all rather than what you're suffering with now. Personally I think it would be rudely presumptuous of us to make such assumptions when there is no compelling technical reason to disenfranchise people in this way. Ron From martin.thomson@gmail.com Thu Jan 2 09:54:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68331AD8F1 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HGxNX_mb7VW for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3776A1AC499 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id en1so18977121wid.5 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9QNeBFOg5vLwQPvXOSEUQZ2VJK+BlrLAjq+eJlrOXHU=; b=eWhQmv6Zs3pPSCFrc7ZCx7ix7NCRcphfIrqpppIF/zea62YKhH1kpDnmx3xJbZpzPG oqgiB2wYGRu9mppq04r3Yhw8cJRNxzKKfxCbtKrVKjWm4pFK+H5amAFaWqfDyjpZExQ7 siNAVMpVbVo9551fV5IDn6NdmWtboTV4PlpHCsWb/13lxtqWA2chxGeWYmS8kpHAcHCr uIEAu+tR5zN2zrfieUvDY1TJl3KgFGRKqm2/exjBGYjzVk/hugnIcWuSJfKRnGarMI0l yZIpsUkT9FF0Wh7+kZXrmCrbeF3PHsKQykStAq5txhaMcHP7o1rKQrZjlG/VwWA5nqR7 RTEQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.236.9 with SMTP id uq9mr45964564wjc.31.1388685258742; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.134.195 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C432187@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] 5 tuples and rmcat-cc-requirements-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 17:54:28 -0000 On 1 January 2014 07:40, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Is there some reason why people are avoiding the obvious avenue > of creating an API to control BUNDLE? We already need one for > BUNDLE-only anyway. The only reason I suggested what I did was because said API doesn't exist and Dave was looking for immediate answers. That was why I didn't mention OfferToReceiveAudio/Video either. Justin presented (in the IETF, wrong venue :) some very reasonable suggestions for API on bundle controls. I see no reason not to do that, but I was under the impression that current implementations don't support this either. From singer@apple.com Thu Jan 2 11:28:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5BD1ACC86 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:28:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MMdfd3p_zgIb for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7521A82E2 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:28:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay4.apple.com ([17.128.113.87]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MYS0031CGR9CWZ0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:28:28 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807157-b7ff46d000001540-5f-52c5bddbabd1 Received: from spicerack.apple.com (spicerack.apple.com [17.128.115.40]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id BF.14.05440.BDDB5C25; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from singda.apple.com (singda.apple.com [17.197.32.11]) by spicerack.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MYS00FKZGRFUT70@spicerack.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: <52B5A7D5.6060102@googlemail.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:28:27 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <87D3E0FC-CD43-4C53-B21A-0115BEC02CBF@apple.com> References: <20131219033000.GK3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <52B38E3E.1040801@bbs.darktech.org> <52B40035.2010308@alvestrand.no> <0D649E40-454C-4945-B148-FD8AC6D49349@apple.com> <52B5A7D5.6060102@googlemail.com> To: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCsoXt779EggyNXbCzW/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxs0TR9gKpvFULLl/lbmB8S5nFyMnh4SAicSxSX+YIWwxiQv3 1rOB2EICk5kkHnUrdTFyAdmrmSTaX80BSnBwMAvoSdy/qAVSwwtkbpw3G6xXWMBVouHGdlYQ m01AVeLBnGOMIDYnUM2rFWfAbBag+PrXk8FqmAW0JZ68u8AKMcdGYu75ZiaIXVNYJHYfugWW EBEQltj6qpcJZK+EgKzE/NOlExj5ZyFcMQvJFbOQTF3AyLyKUaAoNSex0kQvsaAgJ1UvOT93 EyM4uArDdzD+W2Z1iFGAg1GJh9ej8WiQEGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRFe/ZlAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLS nNTiQ4zSHCxK4rwNh7YECQmkJ5akZqemFqQWwWSZODilGhgN4/aUtbfqpzfE+Pd0Jb0LCrzH FiX3wrH4jb2L2Mr3jHc/GE7kZ/uuwndRbMeki5c1Dj/9bz39v6P6ignvOreeujVjz9cVs1cK z63PSX3zx3Hi7D2fpUw8F+pMThLPWfZh6cX9WeemPDIs3tvndeO07sc4Tf4+j9Vf63pFD8/5 JG5+Pfdr/pV+JZbijERDLeai4kQAtBt3eyoCAAA= Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Counting NOs (Re: Straw Poll on Nokia mincing) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 19:28:36 -0000 On Dec 21, 2013, at 6:38 , Maik Merten = wrote: > Am 20.12.2013 18:17, schrieb David Singer: >> VP8 is formally *unlicensable* at the IETF. Ignoring this does not = increase credibility of your arguments. >=20 > Just asking to get a better understanding of the process: >=20 > If there was a single "will not license" declaration regarding H.264, = no matter how flimsy the claim, then H.264 would be automatically = "formally unlicensable" as well? In the absence of any response or analysis from the standards body, yes. = However ISO/IEC requires that the technical committee re-examine the = standard in the light of the statement. I have never been through this = process myself for an ISO standard, so I am not sure what the expected = output of this is, however. Perhaps a revised specifications, perhaps = an analysis of the claims? > This sounds like a dangerous loophole to let any party block basically = anything and I hope there are provisions in place to mitigate such = scenarios. Yes. Other bodies (e.g. notably the W3C) form groups to analyze the = spec and the claims, to resolve the situation. By the way, I use =91formally unlicensable=92 as a shorthand for =91there = is no promise of a license=92. The statement merely fails to promise = that you can get one; it doesn=92t promise the reverse (that you cannot = get one). Just in case anyone wants to split hairs; it doesn=92t help = us, however. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From singer@apple.com Thu Jan 2 12:00:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AED91ADFFD for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.04 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.04 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CfbnDmFZ6wWG for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 12:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (bramley.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F8B1ADFBD for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 12:00:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay7.apple.com ([17.128.113.101]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MYS0038MI73CW11@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807165-b7f8e6d000004de8-24-52c5c53bd43c Received: from spicerack.apple.com (spicerack.apple.com [17.128.115.40]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 58.4A.19944.C35C5C25; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from singda.apple.com (singda.apple.com [17.197.32.11]) by spicerack.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MYS00E8TI7V2F10@spicerack.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:59:55 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <1B93DA5B-A584-4EAA-9102-C2358358849A@apple.com> References: To: Stephan Wenger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCsoWtz9GiQwbR17BZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr40D/E5aChxwVB5qWsTYw/mTrYuTgkBAwkZi8T6iLkRPIFJO4 cG89UJiLQ0hgMpPEnZ1dLBDOaiaJji9HmUAamAX0JO5f1AJp4AUyN86bzQxiCwuIS/R/mcQK YrMJqEo8mHOMEcTmFNCVeHHwHBuIzQIUPzdpATuIzSwQKfF/+xomCFtb4sm7C6wQM20kTjYt AosLCehIrHs4GWy+iICKxKGbP1ggbpaVmH+6dAKjwCyEg2YhOWgWkqELGJlXMQoUpeYkVprr JRYU5KTqJefnbmIEh1xh6g7GxuVWhxgFOBiVeHg9Go8GCbEmlhVX5h5ilOBgVhLhLT4MFOJN SaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsQozcGiJM7bdGhLkJBAemJJanZqakFqEUyWiYNTqoFxnsPk7cd+dKyN 5Lrl+eNC7qG9T9g6D7Gy7J2Z9OryY907u9X+d9yWWK3pfD65YaJimMJlGZMdso7746J6Vokw HggXVdlwOKvDdvuKux9Csy6fCL3bKPHHoypVLfe55WWj+lkmnHLhLdqWX+oTH3Z8u28+USjo 1d8fLdZen/yWrzvq2On5g5tdiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAkmY0aDUCAAA= Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] h.261 oddities X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 20:00:11 -0000 (changing the subject as this is discussion, not a poll response, as = requested by the chairs) On Dec 28, 2013, at 15:06 , Stephan Wenger wrote: > Interestingly enough, H.261 *never* had a set of picture parameters = that > bear a relationship with source formats dominant in the market. > CIF has 288 lines, QCIF 144, both distinctly non NTSC world. OTOH, = the > frame rate is 1/29.97 Hz fractions thereof, definitely not PAL/SECAM. > This is the result of a standardization compromise of the worst sort. > Note that this hasn=B9t hindered the adoption of H.261 much. Perhaps > because, at the time, there were literally no alternatives. Today = there > are. > Stephan >=20 When we had H.261 in quicktime, we used the =91system layer=92 to give = timing, and hence any frame rate, and we also externally tagged the = actual picture size (and padded up the encoding). I seem to recall you = can do the same in RTP. Whether H.261 is something I ever want to watch again is another = question entirely. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From olivier.crete@collabora.com Thu Jan 2 23:25:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC931AD9AE for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:25:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.101 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nh7AE6JXjA3Y for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhuna.collabora.co.uk (bhuna.collabora.co.uk [93.93.135.160]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D97B1AD8F7 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: tester) with ESMTPSA id 6D1E7608C1F Message-ID: <1388733929.28294.19.camel@TesterBox> From: Olivier =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Cr=EAte?= To: rtcweb@ietf.org Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:25:29 -0500 Organization: Collabora Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.10.2 (3.10.2-2.fc20) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [rtcweb] ICE TCP Candidates and SCTP DataChannels ? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 07:25:40 -0000 Hello, draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 mentions ICE TCP Candidates [RFC6062], but there is no mention of how they integrated with the SCTP-based data channels? ICE-TCP seems to be a good match for ordered reliable channels, as I expect these will be the most common. Is there any plans to support those? Or to do something akin to RFC 4571 framing to put SCTP in an ICE-TCP connection? Then that raises the question of DTLS, would we want to do SCTP-over-DTLS-over-rfc4571-over-TCP or SCTP-over-rfc4571-over-TLS-over-TCP ? -- Olivier Crête olivier.crete@collabora.com From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Fri Jan 3 07:58:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45821ADED6 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3d1BCecC8gtM for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 07:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us3.mailhostbox.com [70.87.28.154]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DD81ADFE0 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 07:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.197.124]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 682C1868BDF; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 15:58:19 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1388764701; bh=iITl/f+I7WaN3Cyx4T+9/hDAM2fmcqWeW2PDdii8nVQ=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=U4oceuc3AGyUVsxxaGlCePT7gnJn5G448DFtNJqSnDhRjT/3zC4IHnzRCoH0spQL3 kZw52PQhV/0hVUq8j5GXOxuEjQfMcho+UDHWEaBniDg33rwURBbpX6GrN7+NDp0o2a Mp/DHc70I/u25aThUqpF73yLf/NkEmHH/4uLXb3s= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: =?utf-8?Q?'Olivier_Cr=C3=AAte'?= , References: <1388733929.28294.19.camel@TesterBox> In-Reply-To: <1388733929.28294.19.camel@TesterBox> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 21:28:03 +0530 Message-ID: <000401cf089c$97e1c5f0$c7a551d0$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8IVQec1IvFm6HRSCyjWxeYfqUhwwARoLsw Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020207.52C6DE1D.0088, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.155 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ICE TCP Candidates and SCTP DataChannels ? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:58:30 -0000 Hi Olivier, Irrespective of TURN or ICE-TCP, SCTP over DTLS over TURN/RFC 4571 over = TCP has to be supported in case SCTP datachannel mechanism has to be = traversed through firewall. The similar discussion happened earlier in = PNTAW and the related mail thread is = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00144.html. I think that it is better to discuss in detail in pntaw alias about this = issue. I'll forward this mail to pntaw alias for more discussion. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Olivier > Cr=C3=AAte > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 12:55 PM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] ICE TCP Candidates and SCTP DataChannels ? >=20 > Hello, >=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 mentions ICE TCP Candidates [RFC6062], > but there is no mention of how they integrated with the SCTP-based = data > channels? ICE-TCP seems to be a good match for ordered reliable > channels, as I expect these will be the most common. Is there any = plans > to support those? Or to do something akin to RFC 4571 framing to put > SCTP in an ICE-TCP connection? Then that raises the question of DTLS, > would we want to do SCTP-over-DTLS-over-rfc4571-over-TCP or > SCTP-over-rfc4571-over-TLS-over-TCP ? >=20 > -- > Olivier Cr=C3=AAte > olivier.crete@collabora.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de Fri Jan 3 09:17:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97BD1ADFE0 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 09:17:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq0LncDetauw for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 09:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF281ADFDC for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 09:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (p508F020F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.143.2.15]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063B61C0C0692; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 18:17:05 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <1388733929.28294.19.camel@TesterBox> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 18:17:05 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <46EC7110-272B-4948-87B6-46E54D06D225@lurchi.franken.de> References: <1388733929.28294.19.camel@TesterBox> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Cr=EAte?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ICE TCP Candidates and SCTP DataChannels ? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:17:18 -0000 On Jan 3, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Olivier Cr=EAte = wrote: > Hello, >=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 mentions ICE TCP Candidates [RFC6062], > but there is no mention of how they integrated with the SCTP-based = data > channels? ICE-TCP seems to be a good match for ordered reliable > channels, as I expect these will be the most common. Is there any = plans A single TCP connection for each ordered reliable data channel? How would you do message framing? > to support those? Or to do something akin to RFC 4571 framing to put > SCTP in an ICE-TCP connection? Then that raises the question of DTLS, > would we want to do SCTP-over-DTLS-over-rfc4571-over-TCP or > SCTP-over-rfc4571-over-TLS-over-TCP ? Why do you want to use SCTP-over-rfc4571-over-TLS-over-TCP instead of SCTP-over-DTLS-over-rfc4571-over-TCP? Best regards Michael >=20 > --=20 > Olivier Cr=EAte > olivier.crete@collabora.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Fri Jan 3 11:57:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553A91ADFD8 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:57:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dGm-u1Ejjl16 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f176.google.com (mail-ie0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCC41ADFD7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id at1so16281158iec.21 for ; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:57:08 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KEWUhW1JLmPIbfBSsaWurkqYitIFxRIenZbc4cqkNdw=; b=gH1S08OcsD9IcSBaYb5a8l8ZuoOPME5nLj1Ea/GlNli+42fEC/Yhych0OnJNosJwFb 91AX/HR4p7rIn96NU00ywA/kojohOjVGqQPaEpFh9ptH/itNq7AgdLz6Pl9EF827kTC7 Dx4WDoYej/Q7b5xcPiLiQ8E2+QJnilvo145W+g3zfFUe9+/o73NHo8kXS4XOR8t7fm0n tR0Q/Sbfixw+R2bVtV66sN5iX5b+mwbilh8IgE4b9vK3arlIQJCmfLQyZw91nKENZ8lz lQSPIlSJJ1+Tu8TSWGi1cPUzsLPiuRE35fIBHaXPZyenrPzAjqjqiBcIDrgXk33tiFOj pOyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnmmtz/OvLC1QBcYribB1fC8Z+1T8EGQe6zy28RoWxcubDtJPFHtwuZOsT4J4q9cy9Bgsp0 X-Received: by 10.50.176.201 with SMTP id ck9mr4807490igc.46.1388779028600; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s4sm3396121ige.0.2014.01.03.11.57.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:57:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 14:56:27 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 19:57:17 -0000 http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/02/googles-vp9-video-codec-gets-backing-from-arm-nvidia-sony-and-others-gives-4k-video-streaming-a-fighting-chance/ Where would we be without our daily dose of Tech Crunch? :P The article states that ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvidia, Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, Sony and Toshiba plan to roll out hardware support for VP9 in 2014. This seems to cast doubt on the validity of Nokia's IPR claim, and the FUD that's been going around. Gili From matthew.kaufman@skype.net Fri Jan 3 12:48:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8555E1ADD02 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:48:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V9_x8j-W9d9P for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0203.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.203]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40DD81AD69E for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY2PR03CA032.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.234.153) by BY2PR03MB607.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.93.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.842.7; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:48:09 +0000 Received: from BN1AFFO11FD018.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c10::186) by BY2PR03CA032.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:2c2c::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.842.7 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:48:09 +0000 Received: from mail.microsoft.com (131.107.125.37) by BN1AFFO11FD018.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.58.52.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.837.10 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:48:09 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC295.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.1.6]) by TK5EX14HUBC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.80.25]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.002; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:47:39 +0000 From: "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 Thread-Index: AQHPCL4OGgzK4VksYk2thv0AJD/I2ZpzeGMQ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:47:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.32] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.37; CTRY:US; IPV:NLI; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(199002)(189002)(51704005)(377454003)(13464003)(46406003)(47446002)(85852003)(87266001)(15202345003)(81342001)(90146001)(66066001)(81542001)(69226001)(56816005)(15395725003)(31966008)(74502001)(23726002)(79102001)(85806002)(6806004)(59766001)(83072002)(76796001)(76786001)(74366001)(83322001)(54356001)(77982001)(65816001)(19580405001)(81816001)(49866001)(47736001)(50986001)(54316002)(4396001)(74706001)(47976001)(33656001)(51856001)(2656002)(77096001)(74876001)(53806001)(20776003)(74662001)(56776001)(50466002)(15975445006)(85306002)(19580395003)(76482001)(81686001)(80022001)(63696002)(55846006)(80976001)(47776003)(44976005)(46102001)(87936001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB607; H:mail.microsoft.com; CLIP:131.107.125.37; FPR:; RD:InfoDomainNonexistent; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; X-O365ENT-EOP-Header: Message processed by - O365_ENT: Allow from ranges (Engineering ONLY) X-Forefront-PRVS: 00808B16F3 X-OriginatorOrg: skype.net Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:48:23 -0000 Did Nokia make a claim against VP9? Is anyone proposing VP9 as an MTI codec for RTCWEB? Either the answers to the above are both no, or I slept through 2014 accide= ntally. Matthew Kaufman > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > Sent: Friday, January 3, 2014 11:56 AM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in = 2014 >=20 > http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/02/googles-vp9-video-codec-gets-backing- > from-arm-nvidia-sony-and-others-gives-4k-video-streaming-a-fighting- > chance/ >=20 > Where would we be without our daily dose of Tech Crunch? :P >=20 > The article states that ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvid= ia, > Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, Sony and > Toshiba plan to roll out hardware support for VP9 in 2014. >=20 > This seems to cast doubt on the validity of Nokia's IPR claim, and the FU= D > that's been going around. >=20 > Gili > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Fri Jan 3 12:55:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9434F1ADFB1 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:55:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id izZS3pM0ZiQJ for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f170.google.com (mail-ig0-f170.google.com [209.85.213.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037251AD69E for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f170.google.com with SMTP id k19so2076502igc.1 for ; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:55:18 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lmkZu5ShmjNjwYW5BZogEdgKh4MYoyjUSoVYZVIiuOc=; b=QJE6DvQ4OvBBbMvplr3IccM1WvVZhn2F25LPTJq5pFbKVdAkRdLH1zpbtZPIRyGUIw ACzsXrqtlcz3/mLCaQebfnNSPjFNYid/MOcO63X8ucRxMAHzQCH7a2MbdfUjdDq07Kq8 9cJ2gDTP/eg+Rc2q3Trb/IFgCC/AN6Fk3/rRsfAZwqNCexe0dfD2T6XGh9rjxYfb67Ag 5jrLGO2GgqU5AO5WufZgjjpCxxoDA21k8GkQxqNXA70vfa9r1Hr3jUqtEJKl250M5TwI cznPEMEXg2RKE8DcYnNtWwa/I5zt9GoEWAM+hbyxASWW/q4D6HivKjTiZLK/zCyP6cgg YJEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmC0kfCp3vIpa/Ypvqnp019O+GVuAtMiLvHKTNP96IB28HbFq1OPnN5dFpG+SFXDEXia+W1 X-Received: by 10.50.176.137 with SMTP id ci9mr5055186igc.31.1388782518449; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s4sm3595147ige.0.2014.01.03.12.55.16 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:55:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52C7238E.1090804@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:54:38 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:55:27 -0000 I find it hard to believe that whatever claim Nokia has against VP8 does not hold true for VP9. Is anyone seriously making this argument? Right now we have absolutely no information from Nokia, and nothing preventing them from making an equally vague claim against VP9. Gili On 03/01/2014 3:47 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote: > Did Nokia make a claim against VP9? > > Is anyone proposing VP9 as an MTI codec for RTCWEB? > > Either the answers to the above are both no, or I slept through 2014 accidentally. > > Matthew Kaufman > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc >> Sent: Friday, January 3, 2014 11:56 AM >> To: rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 >> >> http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/02/googles-vp9-video-codec-gets-backing- >> from-arm-nvidia-sony-and-others-gives-4k-video-streaming-a-fighting- >> chance/ >> >> Where would we be without our daily dose of Tech Crunch? :P >> >> The article states that ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvidia, >> Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, Sony and >> Toshiba plan to roll out hardware support for VP9 in 2014. >> >> This seems to cast doubt on the validity of Nokia's IPR claim, and the FUD >> that's been going around. >> >> Gili >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From harald@alvestrand.no Sat Jan 4 17:35:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE2C1AE09D for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2014 17:35:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yPWymGfByfAX for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2014 17:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D931AD73E for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2014 17:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B1139E0AB for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 02:35:25 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zq5ufpQWFk69 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 02:35:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:6813:d7fc:a181:8651] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:6813:d7fc:a181:8651]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF9C939E09F for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 02:35:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52C8B6FA.3060500@alvestrand.no> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 02:35:54 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52C715EB.4040809@bbs.darktech.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010805080608050005010708" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ARM, Intel, Nvidia to roll out VP9 hardware support in 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 01:35:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010805080608050005010708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/03/2014 08:56 PM, cowwoc wrote: > http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/02/googles-vp9-video-codec-gets-backing-from-arm-nvidia-sony-and-others-gives-4k-video-streaming-a-fighting-chance/ > > > Where would we be without our daily dose of Tech Crunch? :P > > The article states that ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, > Nvidia, Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, > Sony and Toshiba plan to roll out hardware support for VP9 in 2014. Of course VP8 has people shipping hardware support too. http://wiki.webmproject.org/hardware/arm-socs is a (rather old, I think) list of chips with embedded VP8 support. But this is so widespread by now, TechCrunch doesn't bother mentioning it any more. > > This seems to cast doubt on the validity of Nokia's IPR claim, and the > FUD that's been going around. > > Gili > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------010805080608050005010708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 01/03/2014 08:56 PM, cowwoc wrote:
http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/02/googles-vp9-video-codec-gets-backing-from-arm-nvidia-sony-and-others-gives-4k-video-streaming-a-fighting-chance/

Where would we be without our daily dose of Tech Crunch? :P

The article states that ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvidia, Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, Sony and Toshiba plan to roll out hardware support for VP9 in 2014.

Of course VP8 has people shipping hardware support too.

http://wiki.webmproject.org/hardware/arm-socs is a (rather old, I think) list of chips with embedded VP8 support. But this is so widespread by now, TechCrunch doesn't bother mentioning it any more.



This seems to cast doubt on the validity of Nokia's IPR claim, and the FUD that's been going around.

Gili
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--------------010805080608050005010708-- From Kalyani.Bogineni@VerizonWireless.com Sun Jan 5 13:42:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB22B1AC3FA for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:42:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_MID=0.497, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c6jz8fK1VfzD for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from vanguard.verizonwireless.com (vanguard.verizonwireless.com [162.115.35.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CE71A8028 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:42:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=verizonwireless.com; i=@verizonwireless.com; q=dns/txt; s=prodmail; t=1388958146; x=1420494146; h=from:to:cc:date:subject:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=SDiApZKQdNRUc5vJFSiHWnTvp107p5MzNFSQfYfk/KM=; b=TXNCqy+hTOdREELmmMWD/AIdwDzRlHg2jyrf1kjz+Cb5UvBgPl+nzzUn X7QAFtCnKfWyBdlzv0XBth2tFY1g80vy/MuEGcG22Ts9Uq3ZqnMPDmZ37 LsBrr0yRAB9N2SftQDK+Fc3eDFX/UjaFaeFj2aqana0aaNCpEqXJJdO3C U=; Received: from ohdub02exhub02.uswin.ad.vzwcorp.com ([10.97.42.202]) by vanguard.verizonwireless.com with ESMTP; 05 Jan 2014 13:42:24 -0800 Received: from OHDUB02EXCV33.uswin.ad.vzwcorp.com ([10.97.42.179]) by OHDUB02EXHUB02.uswin.ad.vzwcorp.com ([10.97.42.202]) with mapi; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 16:42:24 -0500 From: "Bogineni, Kalyani" To: 'Ted Hardie' , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , Cullen Jennings Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 16:42:22 -0500 Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac71A7F+/r3lQ77LTVOuNpdgjAqgkwVWT9XA References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4FB1AF8D91129944881538CDCC5347CF032E39967DOHDUB02EXCV33_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Bogineni, Kalyani" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:42:37 -0000 --_000_4FB1AF8D91129944881538CDCC5347CF032E39967DOHDUB02EXCV33_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my responses based on use of WebRTC on 3GPP-based cellular devices= with 3GPP mandatory video codec H.264, the availability of performance enhancers in hardware, and IMS interoperabi= lity with minimum network enhancements. Regards, Kalyani Bogineni Verizon 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: --_000_4FB1AF8D91129944881538CDCC5347CF032E39967DOHDUB02EXCV33_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here are = my responses based on use of WebRTC on 3GPP-based cellular devices with 3GP= P mandatory video codec H.264,

the availability of performance enhancers in hardware, and IMS interop= erability with minimum network enhancements.

Regards,

Kalyani Bogineni

Veri= zon

 

1. &= nbsp;  All entities MUST support H.2= 64

a.    Are you in favor = of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

b.  = ;  Do you have any objections to thi= s option, if so please summarize them:

2.    All entities MUST support VP8

.    &= nbsp; Are you in favor of this option [Ye= s/No/Acceptable]:No

a.<= span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>    Do you have any objections to this option, if so plea= se summarize them:

3.    Al= l entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

.=      = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/= Acceptable]: Acceptable

a.    <= /span>Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:

4.    <= span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black= '>Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8

.      <= /span>Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

a.    <= ![endif]>Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

5.    All entities= MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

.    &n= bsp; Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

a.=     Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:

6.    = All entities MUST support H.261

.      Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable= ]: No

a.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

7.    There is no MT= I video codec

.      Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No<= /span>

a.    Do you h= ave any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /span>

8. &= nbsp;  All entities MUST support H.2= 61 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

. &= nbsp;    Are you in favor = of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

a.  = ;  Do you have any objections to thi= s option, if so please summarize them:

9.    <= /span>All entities MUST support Theora

.   &n= bsp;  Are you in favor of this optio= n [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

a.    Do you have any objections to this option, if = so please summarize them:

= 10.  All e= ntities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

.  &= nbsp;   Are you in favor of thi= s option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

a.   = ; Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

11.  <= span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black= '>All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

.&nbs= p;     Are you in fav= or of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No<= /span>

a. &= nbsp;  Do you have any objections to= this option, if so please summarize them:

12= .  <= ![endif]>All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, an= d MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

.  &= nbsp;   Are you in favor of thi= s option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

a.   = ; Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

13.  <= span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black= '>All entities MUST support H.263

.      = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptab= le]: No

a.    <= ![endif]>Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

14.  All entities MUST impl= ement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

= .     = ; Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: No

a.    = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them:

15.  All entities M= UST support decoding using Theora.

.      Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accepta= ble]: No

a.    <= ![endif]>Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

16.  All entities MUST supp= ort Motion JPEG

.      Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: N= o

a.    Do you = have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=

 

= --_000_4FB1AF8D91129944881538CDCC5347CF032E39967DOHDUB02EXCV33_-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 7 00:52:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B112C1AE4B3 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 00:52:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3Tz5q1J98-Z for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 00:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F551AE008 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 00:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-9d-52cbc031f9d8 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 69.14.23787.130CBC25; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:52:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:51:27 +0100 Message-ID: <52CBC038.7090609@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:52:08 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra7hgdNBBreOKVms/dfO7sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujEO3/rEUPHOq+HO3m7WB8YVeFyMHh4SAicSia7ldjJxAppjE hXvr2boYuTiEBA4xSuzf28sE4SxjlHh7+xwjSBWvgLbE11UPWUBsFgEViUm/m1hBbDYBC4mb PxrZQGxRgWCJW9MesEPUC0qcnPkErF5EQF3i8sMLYHFhgWiJNWtPMIPYQgIBEt+2LWMBOYhT IFBi8aooiNvEJXoag0AqmAUMJI4smsMKYctLNG+dDdWpLdHQ1ME6gVFwFpJls5C0zELSsoCR eRUje25iZk56ueEmRmDoHdzyW3cH46lzIocYpTlYlMR5P7x1DhISSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1J LT7EyMTBKdXAOCXMJaXmduazY15sb3avOhl5yzH1zu2FwWKCH2Z4vZtw5EL42ktL/y2aOGWL jfW9jQ/KXrI8y+QWWdh0L/F+yNNjZZ91ezMXLzt3/uTH5Nea7caC6W08QZ0hkosvh/g8C/19 S+XAP563/J8eS7225V3TdvdV5FkHMdOoBtPlSSc+GQg9PcS1LkOJpTgj0VCLuag4EQDoFEPq CwIAAA== Subject: [rtcweb] Reminder that Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives ends on the 12th of January X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 08:52:15 -0000 WG, This is a reminder that the straw poll ends on January the 12th. If you haven't provided your position yet, please do so this week. Please send your ballot as a response to original message sent on the 9th of December by Ted Hardie! Cheers Magnus Westerlund (WG chair) On 2013-12-09 18:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, > > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven’t read the “Next Steps in > Video Codec Selection Process” > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html)then > please do that before you continue to read. > > > The straw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you > have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use > the information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put > as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an > opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide > your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The > poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed > to the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > > The first question is “Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:”. These three levels allow you to indicate that > you: Yes= I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = I > really don’t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = I can > live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > > The second question is “Do you have any objections to this option, if so > please explain it:” If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it > with a “Yes”. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of > the objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no > objection, leave that question blank. > > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the > WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone’s input in this thread! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to > send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, > 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T > rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > > Thanks, > > > The Chairs > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 7 02:34:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F811AD8EC for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 02:34:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OiXNmFQPI7tW for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 02:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2744E1AD8CD for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 02:34:06 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7eff8e000000eda-2b-52cbd815215d Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 25.09.03802.518DBC25; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:33:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:33:23 +0100 Message-ID: <52CBD81C.8090905@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:34:04 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM , References: <5283DF61.9060807@alvestrand.no> <52B31AF0.60107@ericsson.com> <52B32AE7.1080100@dcrocker.net> <52B40A1E.6030308@ericsson.com> <52B481A9.6010008@dcrocker.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131220163235.0b517a38@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131220163235.0b517a38@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra7ojdNBBn/vmFn8/vSBzWLtv3Z2 i+MbDrE7MHtc2nmSzWPJkp9MHu+7n7EFMEdx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZUz82MJU8IO1omf3BbYG xmcsXYycHBICJhI9Hf/YIGwxiQv31gPZXBxCAocYJRY1dbBDOMsYJSb17gHr4BXQlli0/i8j iM0ioCKx6eNGJhCbTcBC4uaPRrBJogLBEremPWCHqBeUODnzCVivCFDvjx1zwXqZBcQlJt44 BVYvLKAucfzgN0aIZbcZJTpv7wRr5hSwlbjT8hOomQPoPHGJnsYgiF49iSlXW6DmyEs0b53N DGILAc1vaOpgncAoNAvJ6llIWmYhaVnAyLyKkT03MTMnvdxoEyMwgA9u+a26g/HOOZFDjNIc LErivB/eOgcJCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbFF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYGR3bHw5R7Z+btBabe6jxyIvPn4q yzedT55FZrXI9VlBC49UXnZhW73CpkTGIjajJYaZ9bWVYrNxn6PeZc41qWWWN5fd39/5kOmP cY3wuVTBR9NC3jZOZWfT5Vw9+f2GC0LTd0jFM/89NL9Ew3Ga5+Uvnx9FFCkrzTq+e9PFrVcm n/rC5C73nVeJpTgj0VCLuag4EQA3aZZWLgIAAA== Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:34:08 -0000 On 2013-12-21 01:55, SM wrote: > > Could the milestones be updated? It might help to provide a sense of > what the goals are and to assess whether the goals are being met. > Yes, they will be updated. I will try to get this done with my co-chairs within the next 2 weeks. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 7 04:06:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37EBC1ADFA2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:06:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8NxYfsCH7J_Z for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (sesbmg21.ericsson.net [193.180.251.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303F81ADFB1 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb31-b7fa78e0000005dd-ef-52cbedac288f Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A6.40.01501.CADEBC25; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:06:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:05:29 +0100 Message-ID: <52CBEDAF.4030808@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:06:07 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , Harald Alvestrand , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , , References: <5283DF61.9060807@alvestrand.no> <52B31AF0.60107@ericsson.com> <52B32AE7.1080100@dcrocker.net> <52B40A1E.6030308@ericsson.com> <52B481A9.6010008@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <52B481A9.6010008@dcrocker.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre6at6eDDI63qFj8/vSBzeJYXxeb xd7t8xgt1v5rZ7eYNu8jowOrx5UJV1g9Lu08yeaxZMlPJo8vlz+zBbBEcdmkpOZklqUW6dsl cGUsfDuJtWC+QcXHJy8ZGxhXqXUxcnBICJhIdE4t72LkBDLFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwglHiwPwr jBDOMkaJVxsWMYNU8QpoS5w89IAdxGYRUJFYP3k+mM0mYCFx80cjG4gtKhAscWsaRA2vgKDE yZlPWEBsEYF5jBKdZzlAbGEBK4kHt05CbVvFKPFw9yOwIk4BHYlfCxtYIK4Tl+hpDAIJMwvo SUy52sIIYctLNG+dDXaPENA9DU0drBMYBWchWTcLScssJC0LGJlXMUoWpxYn5aYbGerlpueW 6KUWZSYXF+fn6RWnbmIEBvrBLb8NdzBOvGZ/iFGag0VJnJdhemeQkEB6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFp TmrxIUYmDk6pBsZC6+3H7zxZ1Byw7Vhn8bdUpVtzd2yb/2RhQef044KsDacS87hqn5fLMWae 2izTWCO345ikyr2i1zOU+0tPlHqEzv59/MW0N69mXfF3q5KSYnn89KKT5RX1wJK9olJe1Ttv Hd/fLpN3xLZmmUTdj1Cm6W/+vfbcaFaWdvtquSNHzh6ZJvenDJ5KLMUZiYZazEXFiQDBPIqX QgIAAA== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:06:33 -0000 Dave, See inline. On 2013-12-20 18:43, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 12/20/2013 1:13 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> What in my mind should have occurred, but didn't in this case, would be >> to do the following: >> >> 1. Send an email to the WG stating an intention to move the document. >> Including the main motivations for the action. Provide a dead-line when >> this will be done unless objections have been raised. >> >> 2. When the dead-line has been reached, assuming no objections document >> it as the decided. >> >> Do you think I as a chair is overstepping my authority if I follow the >> above process in these cases where discussion is occurring in a smaller >> group and some proposed direction is reached? >> >> I note that in this particular case it could have been the ADs that >> could have made the decision. However, as this wasn't communicated as an >> AD decision, I will not attempt to hide my responsibility behind such a >> line of argumentation. > > > Magnus, > > (I note that Harald has indicated he's now satisfied with the current > situation. That moves this exchange farther into the realm of > hypotheticals. Still, it might be useful.) > > > Simple answer: What you describe would have been 'legal', but I believe > it also would not have been advisable. > > > Extended answer: > > The IETF list today has a thread about the handling of chair and author > assignments. I posted a note into it that is relevant to rtcweb, given > its history: > > > https://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6&rid=49&gid=0&k1=933&k2=75013&tid=1387560859 > > > That was about wg "structure". The question here is about process for > making a decision. > > The basic model for IETF wg decision-making is "default no". That is, a > working group needs to amass rough consensus IN FAVOR, in order to > approve a decision. > > A common efficiency hack is to assert a default-yes model, for some > decisions. That's what you propose. I would note that my above statement says, what I think should have happened in this case. The reasons for this was the WG having a document with large parts of the document outside of our charter. We also had a proposed home for the work. I think if you reviewed the WG's communication on the various decisions that has been made during the WG history I think you will see both methods been applied depending on our judgment on of the issues. For example in all cases we expected to be controversial we have gone with ensure approval. The tricky part I to find a good balance for the truly no-controversial issues that people would find time wasting to seek approval for and the ones where people should have their say. I will keep in mind the need for ensuring approval going forward. > > Default-yes works well in a healthy working group that is nicely making > progress. It relies in high trust of the working group chairs, > participant comfort in being able to raise objections, and good working > group support for discussing objections. > > At the beginning of a working group, the primary goal needs to be to > establish a pattern of affirmative consensus. Folks need to get into > the habit of finding things to actively agree on. That requires an > active process. Passive "no one objected" agreement often isn't really > agreement. More importantly, it definitely isn't active support for the > final output. > > Active support for the final output is the single-most important goal > for IETF work, since it creates a likelihood of adoption in the field. > > That's not what you've got in rtcweb. Quite the opposite. Just look at > the wg statistics. Lots of documents. 1.5 years. Nothing published. > Blocked on a decision about a component. I also hear continuing > reports of mutual suspicion amongst participants. I would note that this WG is trying to do something that isn't that common in IETF. We are actually doing what I refer to us umbrella standardization. Putting a large number of components together into a system. I at least are not surprised that it has taken this amount of time to get where we are now. I wished we where further along and that some high attention topics wouldn't have taken the amount of energy it has. I would also note that it has been quit an interesting process, which had made us question the choices made in individual components in a number of places. I think dealing with these issues of putting things together and wanting to fix or change things is what contributes to the delay in producing output. > > So no, I don't think what you propose would have been a good choice, > even though it might have been legal. Noted, I disagree with you in this particular case due to the reasons for the request to move it. > > But your ending note about the possibility of an AD decision points to > an even deeper problem: ADs don't have that authority. > > Working groups decide on what documents they adopt, within the > constraints of their charters. To move a document from one working > group to another requires agreement of both working groups. AD's do not > have final authority on this. > > If you disagree, please show me where that authority is assigned. I think the ADs have the authority to manage their WGs and point out charter violations in their area's and other WGs. I agree that ADs don't have final authority on this. This move is not violating this either. I hope the call for adoption in TSVWG will start very soon for the document prompting this discussion and its topics that falls within TSVWG charter. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From Nico.Pranke@citrix.com Tue Jan 7 04:57:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF2C1ADFD7; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k10IvwS247OJ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailfilter.citrixonline.com (mx3.expertcity.com [216.219.126.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D241ADBD4; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (emailfilter [127.0.0.1]) by emailfilter.citrixonline.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id s07CpgFB003566; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:56:46 -0800 Received: from mail.citrixonline.com (sbapmail04.ad.corp.expertcity.com [10.1.6.194]) by emailfilter.citrixonline.com with ESMTP id 1h8hag03kt-1; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 04:56:46 -0800 Received: from SBAPMAIL05.ad.corp.expertcity.com ([169.254.2.48]) by sbapmail04.ad.corp.expertcity.com ([169.254.1.178]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.004; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:57:15 -0800 From: Nico Pranke To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "rtcweb-owner@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac8LindutNqUrUh+SxqWuL6BuzWo/w== Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 12:57:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.6.102] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-07_04:2014-01-07,2014-01-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nico Pranke List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:57:38 -0000 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=20 Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: -- Nico Pranke, Citrix Online From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 7 05:04:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102A91ADEB7 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2vlF1Dsr92q3 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (sesbmg21.ericsson.net [193.180.251.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95AE1ADBD4 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:04:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb31-b7fa78e0000005dd-b3-52cbfb4fd898 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg21.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3C.B4.01501.F4BFBC25; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:04:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.89) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:03:40 +0100 Message-ID: <52CBFB58.9020201@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:04:24 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xavier Marjou , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra7/79NBBju+yVis/dfObnHj9w0W ByaPnbPusnssWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvj8vXnbAVHwiuOfJzO0sDYb93FyMkhIWAi caq3iQnCFpO4cG89WxcjF4eQwAlGiXlzdrNAOMsYJdad3cMKUsUroC0x4cImRhCbRUBF4m93 MwuIzSZgIXHzRyMbiC0qECxxa9oDdoh6QYmTM5+A1YgIBEmcvfIerFdYwE3i6c49YJuFBAIk 7uzdDVbPKRAo8ePiBSCbA+gicYmexiCQMLOAgcSRRXNYIWx5ieats5khWrUlGpo6WCcwCs5C sm0WkpZZSFoWMDKvYpQsTi1Oyk03MtTLTc8t0UstykwuLs7P0ytO3cQIDNuDW34b7mCceM3+ EKM0B4uSOC/D9M4gIYH0xJLU7NTUgtSi+KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYzRryfGBx2Im/JzbfQD8d+X fxeIZwrYG11X2Lr5vptkTXvqiRV1p1/HxbHyuq4/V18Q1FWT9LFVScn2UfAXG5u2HYXOqafz 7eRXG3UzK+saW1kWqW9b4BB2xiSyJSZGdN6nxY/Ng5al9nVtnbCOa2PJctWGwlM707d2dwus z+N1+sb5vSUzRomlOCPRUIu5qDgRAMg2tuYpAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] How will be used the results of this straw poll? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:04:29 -0000 On 2013-12-20 17:48, Xavier Marjou wrote: > > Could the chairs indicate how exactly they will use the answers of the > poll and derive the decision? (i.e. which algorithm will be applied on > the results ?) Hi Xavier, Responding as individual chair. The primary purpose of this poll was to help everyone, us chairs as well as anyone in the WG to get a better understanding of the situation within the WG in regards to the alternatives. This includes a wider set of participants then the most vocal in the meetings and on the mailing list to better understand where the whole of the WG stands on this. With that information in hand we chairs hope to be able to determine what the most sensible next step to propose to the WG is. If there are one alternative that has good or at least any chance of achieving consensus then we will consider an consensus call on that option alone. If there is a small sub-set that appears like it can achieve WG consensus we might consider some selection process. If there are no option that appear acceptable at this time then we have to deal with also that. So, there is no explicit algorithm that will be applied here. We will look at the data, the same way you can and try to draw some sensible conclusions about what is the most appropriate next step and propose that to the WG. I want to stress two important things from my perspective. 1) That as many as possible provides their view by balloting. Thus getting a more accurate reading of the WG participants current position. 2) That we all will have the same data to understand the situation from, thus our proposal for next step should not be a big surprise for anyone following the poll. Cheers Magnus Westerlund > > Thanks, > Xavier > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Ted Hardie > wrote: > > Dear WG, > > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven’t read the “Next Steps > in Video Codec Selection Process” > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html)then > please do that before you continue to read. > > > The straw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you > have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will > use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternative > to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone > that has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this > poll. Provide your poll input by replying to this email to the WG > mailing list. The poll will run until the end of the 12th of January > 2014. > > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have > proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > > The first question is “Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:”. These three levels allow you to indicate that > you: Yes= I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = I > really don’t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = I > can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > > The second question is “Do you have any objections to this option, > if so please explain it:” If you have any objection at a minimum > indicate it with a “Yes”. Please also add a short (1-sentence) > summary of each of the objections you believe applies. (If you wish > to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate thread). > If you have no objection, leave that question blank. > > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and > feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed > decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be > brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to > leave blank, will simply be considered as one without any input from > you. > > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone’s input in this > thread! If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and > change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making > life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this > straw poll. > > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free > to send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the > closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March > 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of > ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > > Thanks, > > > The Chairs > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com Tue Jan 7 05:12:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9C21ADF38 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IeklKgE2w9Sv for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-da01.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.128.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E171ADBD4 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.57]) by mgw-da01.nokia.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id s07D71bf005553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 15:07:02 +0200 Received: from 008-AM1MPN1-043.mgdnok.nokia.com ([169.254.3.242]) by 008-AM1MMR1-002.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.57]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.002; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:07:01 +0000 From: To: , , , , , Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Thread-Index: AQHPC6DqKO6iAdQaHkeU/buOWugUBZp5MhPg Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:07:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5283DF61.9060807@alvestrand.no> <52B31AF0.60107@ericsson.com> <52B32AE7.1080100@dcrocker.net> <52B40A1E.6030308@ericsson.com> <52B481A9.6010008@dcrocker.net> <52CBEDAF.4030808@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52CBEDAF.4030808@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tituslabs-classifications-30: TLPropertyRoot=Nokia;Confidentiality=Nokia Internal Use Only; x-titus-version: 3.5.9.3 x-headerinfofordlp: x-tituslabs-classificationhash-30: VgNFIFU9Hx+/nZJb9Kg7IrugGKdmF1QOuEl2g/qaJCaA0orAvC3bdQ/Z/jJsWzjWB7irlJTB6RSzBLnD3TktetMREHID8wy9UcLgap/NfiUlEPXa1MdNUzKwU0gazYiw+Btbzyl3R4HSuozmTEaA9cYRkWL2mKs5IVxbRcHGmuqio8F+/ZmHkZHPllFmhG+XFAVdZ09RVtW05noK0cNndA9Eo14bqgBHWWCcyU7ioqA/QGuqNddHT8tIE3mxKUo3 x-originating-ip: [10.236.6.23] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:12:48 -0000 Hi, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >=20 > On 2013-12-20 18:43, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > That's not what you've got in rtcweb. Quite the opposite. Just look > > at the wg statistics. Lots of documents. 1.5 years. Nothing publishe= d. > > Blocked on a decision about a component. I also hear continuing > > reports of mutual suspicion amongst participants. >=20 > I would note that this WG is trying to do something that isn't that commo= n in > IETF. We are actually doing what I refer to us umbrella standardization. > Putting a large number of components together into a system. I at least a= re > not surprised that it has taken this amount of time to get where we are n= ow. >=20 I think it is fair to note that RTCWEB's track record in this regard is no = worse than any of the SIP-related WG's is TSV or RAI area was when SIP was = in its most active phase 10+ years ago. I don't know if there are good exam= ples in other IETF areas where progress has been faster and how that has be= en achieved. Usually WG's deal with a single core protocol and a few extens= ions and that is hard enough already.=20 Markus=20 From fineberg@vline.me Tue Jan 7 09:43:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBFF1AE075 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:43:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6cWssqGfo7q for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f41.google.com (mail-pa0-f41.google.com [209.85.220.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8991AE07A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 09:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id lf10so678705pab.28 for ; 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Tue, 07 Jan 2014 09:43:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CC3CA3.8090808@vline.me> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 09:42:59 -0800 From: Adam Fineberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> \"rtcweb@ietf.org\"" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070006030208030004090604" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 17:43:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070006030208030004090604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Shouldn't differentiate between types without > clearer delineation. > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: No interop guarantee > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: No interop guarantee > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: No guarantee of encoding in compatible format > >16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > > -- Regards, Adam --------------070006030208030004090604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  1. All entities MUST support H.264

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  2. All entities MUST support VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Shouldn't differentiate between types without clearer delineation.

  5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop guarantee

  6. All entities MUST support H.261

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  7. There is no MTI video codec

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop guarantee

  8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  9. All entities MUST support Theora

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  13. All entities MUST support H.263

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No guarantee of encoding in compatible format

  16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:




-- 
Regards,
Adam
--------------070006030208030004090604-- From coverdale@sympatico.ca Tue Jan 7 14:49:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093271AE21E for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:49:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SdclJoq4yWrc for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s11.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s11.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.86]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D1A1AE219 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU0-SMTP38 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s11.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:49:28 -0800 X-TMN: [JLM8a2nzB1RqUFdaBY6rc3JAecEFzCTu] X-Originating-Email: [coverdale@sympatico.ca] Message-ID: Received: from PaulNewPC ([74.15.60.93]) by BLU0-SMTP38.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:49:25 -0800 From: Paul Coverdale To: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 17:49:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF0BD0.CD4E7D50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac71iSf07yvEMG0NRAmZs1viC/VRsgWYFeNA Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jan 2014 22:49:25.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6E2A530:01CF0BFA] Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 22:49:41 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF0BD0.CD4E7D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR status unclear and lack of interoperability with existing video services 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not ideal, but provides interoperability (albeit with IPR risk) 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not ideal, but provides interoperability 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't provide interoperability 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor quality, and doesn't provide interoperability with existing video services 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Basically lets the market decide 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor quality of H.261, not widely deployed 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't provide interoperability with existing video services 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor quality of H.261, not widely deployed 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't provide full interoperability with existing video services 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not widely deployed 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't solve interoperability 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't solve interoperability 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not a viable proposal ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF0BD0.CD4E7D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.264

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Yes

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.    A= ll entities MUST support VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = IPR status unclear and lack of interoperability with existing video = services

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.    A= ll entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Not ideal, but provides interoperability (albeit with IPR = risk)

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.    B= rowsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Not ideal, but provides interoperability

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.    A= ll entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Doesn’t provide interoperability

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Poor quality, and doesn’t provide interoperability with = existing video services

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>7.    T= here is no MTI video codec

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Basically lets the market decide

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>8.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least = one of H.264 and VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Poor quality of H.261, not widely = deployed

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>9.    A= ll entities MUST support Theora

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Doesn’t provide interoperability with existing video = services

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>10.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Poor quality of H.261, not widely = deployed

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>11.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>12.  A= ll entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or = VP8

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Doesn’t provide full interoperability with existing video = services

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>13.  A= ll entities MUST support H.263

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Not widely deployed

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>14.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = Theora}

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Doesn’t solve interoperability

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>15.  A= ll entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Doesn’t solve interoperability

<= o:p> 

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>16.  A= ll entities MUST support Motion JPEG

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

<= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Not a viable proposal

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF0BD0.CD4E7D50-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 7 16:15:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912C91AE24D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:15:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_71=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UcS__TDBcPgX for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f174.google.com (mail-ig0-f174.google.com [209.85.213.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB001AE249 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id hk11so11692574igb.1 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 16:14:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=/pWHzhqknX9+2f0pjVmp6ZedxLHpqBrEwXBFZYAyOtg=; b=U96XNg16myvrA7GVzV5d+Q9Zu6/jXFBVDK4nJa2aRkO1GZnRdXfY4XAd4CIZNREeA/ ljKaurPlGEZrSwgCIKJlyrHZI4VCHBuTw9yBPtjAqkNg8BGEiGAzknyzjTXqftHQwLM8 zlzlVch4SsNnWt8SwIKsRsHt6WhBUfrqYZwkdpVCFxs3MIsi8smwoPV23d8d86CU5flw HwFGLgUVOYxyJM1o9o3h4nik8SwUaowYVgbh8/qW71z2TIMiZhuVULlorguhMC9xQc0X VcUxqDKOngtp7jos7juGdkvjxuCyhMdCDoMBid3wBEfHoGVg6hUKjKSmFdMQIyXWfnXO InNA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmXsgZeBiIZ91BKulnwJd8OeqZLi+921J8w3bKIZaS8ufZ/sXWfurdbM7Sh86XHAX8Hshbs X-Received: by 10.42.226.66 with SMTP id iv2mr86953534icb.11.1389140091310; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 16:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d18sm6097314igz.0.2014.01.07.16.14.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2014 16:14:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CC9877.7010004@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:14:47 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050501030403020407010602" Subject: [rtcweb] Paul Coverdale's response to Straw Poll (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 00:15:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050501030403020407010602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, Care to elaborate on these last three responses? How do the first two fail to solve interoperability? And why do you feel that the 3rd option is "not a viable proposal"? Thanks, Gili On 07/01/2014 5:49 PM, Paul Coverdale wrote: > 14.All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > > b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Doesn't solve interoperability* > > 15.All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > > b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Doesn't solve interoperability* > > 16.All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > > b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Not a viable proposa*l > > --------------050501030403020407010602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Paul,

Care to elaborate on these last three responses? How do the first two fail to solve interoperability? And why do you feel that the 3rd option is "not a viable proposal"?

Thanks,
Gili

On 07/01/2014 5:49 PM, Paul Coverdale wrote:
14.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn’t solve interoperability

 

15.  All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn’t solve interoperability

 

16.  All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not a viable proposal



--------------050501030403020407010602-- From john@jlc.net Tue Jan 7 17:18:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5BC1AE27E for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 17:18:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AEBWCZa0x8xr for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 17:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B061AE27D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 17:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id A97D7C94BD; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 20:18:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 20:18:31 -0500 From: John Leslie To: Ted Hardie Message-ID: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 01:18:46 -0000 Ted Hardie wrote: > > ... Provide your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing > list. The poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014... 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too many potential implementors have IPR problems. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too many potential implementors have IPR problems. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too many potential implementors have IPR problems. (Note, I do support both of these as SHOULD.) 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Though we call it webrtc, I don't favor browsers being a mandatory middleman. (I do trust at least a few browsers to support both, regardless of our MTI wording.) 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too many potential implementors have IPR problems. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.8) b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I dislike giving up; but the horse appears pretty dead. Punting to another group would be a Yes. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: #10 is much better. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR situation is unclear. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR situation is unclear. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too many potential implementors have IPR problems. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR situation is unclear. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR situation is unclear. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doesn't solve the issue, and IPR situation is unclear. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR situation is unclear (and decidedly not worth clarifying!). -- John Leslie From tim@phonefromhere.com Wed Jan 8 03:17:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4E91AE340 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 03:17:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R_emdrFBymwr for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 03:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157C81AE2A1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 03:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 59833 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2014 11:16:49 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 4633 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2014 11:16:49 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F37E18A045A; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:16:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A80618A0425; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:16:49 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: <52CC3CA3.8090808@vline.me> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:16:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5C110278-EC44-4A29-95A4-E56992E85847@phonefromhere.com> References: <52CC3CA3.8090808@vline.me> To: Adam Fineberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] Adam Fineberg's choices was Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 11:17:02 -0000 On 7 Jan 2014, at 17:42, Adam Fineberg wrote: >=20 >> =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 >> =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No >> =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: Shouldn't differentiate between types without = clearer delineation. I think that's entirely fair - here's a draft definition: Browser:=20 An entity that supports multiple usages through dynamically = loadable code (javascript) and can render arbitrary user interfaces using HTML5. (e.g chrome) Other entities: A non-browser entity supports a single dedicated usecase and = will lack the ability to dynamically load a user interface or code to support differing use cases. (e.g. a doorbell) It's like blank tape vs pre-recorded cassettes (if you are old enough) . Tim. Tim Panton - Web/VoIP consultant and implementor www.westhawk.co.uk From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 8 05:48:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66C41AE3BB for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 05:48:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5zFibdtn-Uzw for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 05:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E8B1AE3A3 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 05:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7D339E1A5; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:48:13 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRNIIrKQ61Y3; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:48:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:fcf1:3a8b:d675:88f4] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:fcf1:3a8b:d675:88f4]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0980E39E057; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:48:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CD571A.4040203@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:48:10 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Leslie , Ted Hardie References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] John Leslie's choices (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:48:21 -0000 John, On 01/08/2014 02:18 AM, John Leslie wrote: > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: Doesn't solve the issue, and IPR situation is unclear. I didn't see an answer here, but from the comment, it sounds like you intended NO. Is that correct? From sergel@google.com Wed Jan 8 06:20:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2F41AE3CE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:20:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mA-n7aelO5QD for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x232.google.com (mail-ve0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894371AE3D7 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f178.google.com with SMTP id c14so1293450vea.37 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:20:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=ipiQv6Arhdx+1ApFIO8wazZqFSnTlekJVghtPGbjnyE=; b=Wxw7VGcIfrY2s8Kuk+I464ZNJvN3+8m9RBgxZ/o2ZwSBKY/Sw7OqVgJtRjQ95QyBvx i4OK+HGDxFuBMAEZj+/dqdHm19zNtwvS/x9YZI8MAE2C8k7YYNo/oekW5MZW4DoXPvST 166z2zZFeL2l7wQNpD61w1kwiEUksqGKQijVF8eK0Iap996ppJWZjkqN+fWXAMWiNA6O RuxmXNqM0oHBk3Ln9CBVAeHIl7Nxsew7sF53WrYsRNXJE7hG3Xv6KySl1Ke+tc3wSJoD ljg98xTQff2G5I565R2+Wxw43n3/S6oDMXLl72/QBgVJzN6MLIuzE00fZ/Kl1e4sfSpk Yq1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ipiQv6Arhdx+1ApFIO8wazZqFSnTlekJVghtPGbjnyE=; b=fp6g7535kA9ZUsyQiqQxw+40ysJk61E+ZsazT3vgH/iYiq+De8wqgW8iEwlE33MefH hoKZKqipnYZNt8mbhtcqHlrlRQS2s7eV+QmCQvnG+83KdJ3Xw6evsUc+6EbmUGOiFmY3 e0JsJNOc985y+fHsqnovAdE/n96w2hFtVRec2vkJ1uxxD8hka5UctA2139td4k3xqRNM mENIZleW1iTNlXBbSaObgY3JZ3Z3d5TgPmjHWmS8IGnRuJJsoooUxvtGHMMAUdCCWCfK uXaGfVYQC7H1hg0r/QasjjRGEttlPU2VmcY3Ozm0X8A8scr31QSwB758jaIKmNnR/Er9 LWiA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl29l+8a/CC+vHCWdFma39G6jcSSXKE36CtVxPUlluvBO00tuwOnhZ+8R9BZ23vpPHd32KF7y7MOb5Xc+r+oXMKRwmckkNZ9WCDpxL/6FdXQ+OGDnujtcr1zwI2AnrcxqSSSvW/KlwvjnWuHnlYHkHLRFYB1L73lYZmfzWqFQH75CrnzGfgwwwjxbL2/xZ0APQmqJzQ X-Received: by 10.53.2.36 with SMTP id bl4mr7668294vdd.32.1389190812205; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:20:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sergel@google.com Received: by 10.52.174.69 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:19:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> From: Serge Lachapelle Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:19:42 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tYw6Vh3SZ-SQdQHa41ZiPm-rCvw Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113637d4e31aa904ef763089 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:20:25 -0000 --001a113637d4e31aa904ef763089 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Licensing methods from MPEG-LA make it hard for individuals and small companies to build services (non-commercial or commercial, in or out of the browser, in or out various app stores) around WebRTC. The amounts involved and accounting chores required are a serious issue for many small companies / individuals. This will hurt the eco system. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] I object to the H.264 licensing cost and chores as I wrote in 1b, but this one opens up the MTI to individuals and small companies to build services (non-commercial or commercial, in or out of the browser, in or out various app stores) that interop without with payments or accounting chores. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Similar to 3b. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] It opens for scenarios that fail. Goes against the reason for an MTI. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] The 90's called. They want their codec back. This will seriously hurt users, especially users with fixed cap mobile data plans. They will get a subpar experience and be penalized financially for using a MTI based solution. With everyone leaving desktops and large chunks of population moving to mobile links for their home broadband, this is an issue. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Not in favor, but I would hate for this workgroup, that has proven to be capable of iteration and consensus on other topics, to spend more time on this. We tried, we failed. There is a lot of other work to be accomplished. Also, a lot is happening in this space with VP9, Daala and this other codec I keep hearing about, making this conversation less and less interesting with every month that goes by. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] 261 is too old to offer acceptable performance. These high bitrates would hurt innocent users' mobile data plans in the name of interop. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Could be acceptable, but I am not informed enough to give an opinion. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Needs investigation. While I feel it is better than 261, I have no clue how it performs for RTC, nor has this been discussed much in this group. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] We can do better than this. This is the equivalent of 6. The fall back will create situations that do not perform well on mobile devices. Showing a h.261 stream on a retina screen that is acceptable must be impossible at normal mobile bitrates. These high bitrates would hurt innocent users' mobile data plans in the name of interop. Not acceptable. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] H.263 has not been debated or analyzed enough. How does one license it? Does one need to license it? What % of bw does it take more than VP8 or 264? 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Why would we do this? Unclear to me. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] H.263 has not been debated or analyzed enough. How does one license it? Does one need to license it? 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] Cannot make an informed decision. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] In all honesty, I do not know enough of Theora nor do I feel it has been debated in this group enough to form an opinion. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] MTI should be encode as well. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: [serge] No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: [serge] Bitrates are incredibly high. This would kill any mobile data plan immediately and hurt end users. --001a113637d4e31aa904ef763089 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

1. = =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.264
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this= option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to t= his option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] Lic= ensing methods from MPEG-LA make it hard for individuals and small companie= s to build services (non-commercial or commercial, in or out of the browser= , in or out various app stores) around WebRTC. The amounts involved and acc= ounting chores required are a serious issue for many small companies / indi= viduals. This will hurt the eco system.=C2=A0

=C2=A02. =C2= =A0All entities MUST support VP8
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this opti= on [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] Yes
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them:

=C2=A03. =C2=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] Acceptable
=C2=A0 b. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] I object to the H.264 licensing cost and chores as I = wrote in 1b, but this one opens up the MTI to individuals and small compani= es to build services=C2=A0(non-commercial or commercial, in or out of the b= rowser, in or out various app stores)=C2=A0that interop without with paymen= ts or accounting chores.

=C2=A04. =C2= =A0Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Y= es/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] Yes
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, i= f so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] Similar to 3b.= =C2=A0

=C2=A05. =C2=A0All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8<= br>=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so pl= ease summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] It opens for scenarios that fail. Goes against = the reason for an MTI.

=C2=A06. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261
=C2=A0 a.= Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [serge] No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, i= f so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[serge] The 90's called. They want their codec b= ack. This will seriously hurt users, especially users with fixed cap mobile= data plans. They will get a subpar experience and be penalized financially= for using a MTI based solution. With everyone leaving desktops and large c= hunks of population moving to mobile links for their home broadband, this i= s an issue.

=C2=A07. =C2=A0There is no MTI video codec
=C2=A0 a. Are y= ou in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[ser= ge] Acceptable
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this optio= n, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [serge] Not in favor, but I would hate for this workgroup, th= at has proven to be capable of iteration and consensus on other topics, to = spend more time on this. We tried, we failed. There is a lot of other work = to be accomplished. Also, a lot is happening in this space with VP9, Daala = and this other codec I keep hearing about, making this conversation less an= d less interesting with every month that goes by.

=C2=A08. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MU= ST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] 261 is too old to offer acceptable performance.= =C2=A0These high bitrates would hurt innocent users' mobile data plans = in the name of interop.

=C2=A09. =C2=A0All entities MUST supp= ort Theora
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]= :
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [serge] Could be acceptable, but I am not informed enough to = give an opinion.
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this opt= ion, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [serge] Needs investigat= ion. While I feel it is better than 261, I have no clue how it performs for= RTC, nor has this been discussed much in this group.

10. =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264,= H.261}
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge] No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any object= ions to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [serge] We can do better than this. This is the e= quivalent of 6. The fall back will create situations that do not perform we= ll on mobile devices. Showing a h.261 stream on a retina screen that is acc= eptable must be impossible at normal mobile bitrates. These high bitrates w= ould hurt innocent users' mobile data plans in the name of interop. Not= acceptable.

11. =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264,= H.263}
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0No.
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any = objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0H.2= 63 has not been debated or=C2=A0analyzed=C2=A0enough. How does one license = it? Does one need to license it? What % of bw does it take more than VP8 or= 264?

12. =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[s= erge]=C2=A0=C2=A0Why would we do this? Unclear to me.

13. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.263
=C2=A0 a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0=C2= =A0No.
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them:
=C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0H.263 has not been debated or=C2=A0a= nalyzed=C2=A0enough. How does one license it? Does one need to license it?= =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

14. =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264,= Theora}
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0Cannot make an informed decision.
=
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0In all honesty, I do not know enough of The= ora nor do I feel it has been debated in this group enough to form an opini= on.=C2=A0

15. =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using = Theora.
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
=C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0No.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 [serge]=C2=A0M= TI should be encode as well.

16. =C2=A0All entities MUST supp= ort Motion JPEG
=C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0No
=C2=A0 b. Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please summarize them:
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0[serge]=C2=A0Bitrates are incredibly high. This would kill any mob= ile data plan immediately and hurt end users.
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
--001a113637d4e31aa904ef763089-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Wed Jan 8 06:41:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041241AE3E5 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pHYbpeC5jML for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f171.google.com (mail-ig0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1AC1AE3C1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c10so13249804igq.4 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yfLoOe34Lr0jdEEp0ZoB66fEKFR5TZnDsFgYyfCMKXA=; b=dLWNcxM1VBfrGIt9oHWt6/ZtHkNQoic/Ka0ml68hPdBMZId6e5qQp4240JJEud+uUA jH9W379M42VmbQd/P7LdIJuWloug0GPvsx4hP2Adj/KgH0PpuUs8qqHL4wKGGd/qkTyS kpq+sNdHhjLX8UmYNyUxdXx5C08Tj78S4AVlx6pPCQwKLXO3ihJqFJnfk2IgTEtFid5V KKjh1e/vVikndCISOQRxJdzuVTVqUvPxJUbF7UzcPhGxCp+LVMvQOajmnIpDcA1ysTtK Ii7sQLTqtNKv4DUIFxaRMXVomV/r4twanwwGyp1fOtBIRaw8Nf/A+Vsv/S1q/lCDhX1m ybYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkVnFzpINFxhn/jl5TlVpqXVqpU5DjjKfVytkBrMDIjvNeXZRBzmQiFwFXsc8MpfmFwo7kz X-Received: by 10.50.79.170 with SMTP id k10mr32544480igx.14.1389192052985; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lp9sm9059158igb.2.2014.01.08.06.40.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:40:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CD6372.5040707@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 09:40:50 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52CC3CA3.8090808@vline.me> <5C110278-EC44-4A29-95A4-E56992E85847@phonefromhere.com> In-Reply-To: <5C110278-EC44-4A29-95A4-E56992E85847@phonefromhere.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Adam Fineberg's choices was Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:41:04 -0000 On 08/01/2014 6:16 AM, Tim Panton wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 17:42, Adam Fineberg wrote: > >>> • Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 >>> • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No >>> • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Shouldn't differentiate between types without clearer delineation. > I think that's entirely fair - here's a draft definition: > Browser: > An entity that supports multiple usages through dynamically loadable code (javascript) and can render arbitrary user interfaces > using HTML5. (e.g chrome) > Other entities: > A non-browser entity supports a single dedicated usecase and will lack the ability to dynamically load a user interface or code > to support differing use cases. (e.g. a doorbell) > > It's like blank tape vs pre-recorded cassettes (if you are old enough) . That is a problematic definition. Native applications running on mobile devices can technically do everything you mentioned in the "browser" definition. I thought the entire point of this option is to say that web browsers must implement X but native applications must implement Y. I was expecting "browser" to be defined as an "application that enable users to render arbitrary web pages" whereas other entities are "special-purpose applications that enable users to carry out a limited set of operations on a limited set of (web) pages". Gili From stephane.proust@orange.com Wed Jan 8 06:49:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658A11AD9AE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ro65JtSwjW2F for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57031ACCE2 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 11C542DC44B for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:49:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id EFE0135C069 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:48:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::a42f:c628:bc76:d592]) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:48:59 +0100 From: To: "'rtcweb@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHPDA+KNkNL8d3kRfKareLqRrJC45p60HUAgAAWVqA= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: <24246_1389192540_52CD655C_24246_10551_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09PEXCVZYM14corpo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.1.8.120916 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:49:14 -0000 --_000_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09PEXCVZYM14corpo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgYmVsb3cgbXkgYW5zd2VyIHRvIHRoZSBzdHJhdyBwb2xsIG9uIHZpZGVvIGNv ZGVjIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlcyBhcyByZXF1ZXN0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIENoYWlycw0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvcnRjd2ViL2N1cnJlbnQvbXNnMTA0NDkuaHRtbA0K 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEac4MvD1UHS for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2081AE463 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 49596 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2014 15:33:23 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 10099 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2014 15:33:23 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5914918A0490; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:33:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22E7F18A04C6; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:33:23 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: <52CD6372.5040707@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:33:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52CC3CA3.8090808@vline.me> <5C110278-EC44-4A29-95A4-E56992E85847@phonefromhere.com> <52CD6372.5040707@bbs.darktech.org> To: cowwoc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Adam Fineberg's choices was Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:33:36 -0000 On 8 Jan 2014, at 14:40, cowwoc wrote: > On 08/01/2014 6:16 AM, Tim Panton wrote: >> On 7 Jan 2014, at 17:42, Adam Fineberg wrote: >>=20 >>>> =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 >>>> =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No >>>> =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: Shouldn't differentiate between types without = clearer delineation. >> I think that's entirely fair - here's a draft definition: >> Browser: >> An entity that supports multiple usages through dynamically = loadable code (javascript) and can render arbitrary user interfaces >> using HTML5. (e.g chrome) >> Other entities: >> A non-browser entity supports a single dedicated usecase and = will lack the ability to dynamically load a user interface or code >> to support differing use cases. (e.g. a doorbell) >>=20 >> It's like blank tape vs pre-recorded cassettes (if you are old = enough) . >=20 > That is a problematic definition. Native applications running on = mobile devices can technically do everything you mentioned in the = "browser" definition. I thought the entire point of this option is to = say that web browsers must implement X but native applications must = implement Y. True, but any mobile app that allows the user to select a (possibly user = defined) HTML5+javascript interface needs to support both codecs - = because it can't know in advance what the other end will support. - If I = point my general-purpose-home-automation-console app at the boiler I may = need to render an h264 flame image, when accessing with my doorbell the = same app may render a VP8 stream of the delivery driver. - So the = general purpose app needs the 'browser' dual codec MTI. Conversely the boiler will probably ship with a dedicated = this-make-of-boiler-only mobile app with a prebuilt UI which only speaks = h264. The device specific app needs the ' other entity' single codec MTI. >=20 > I was expecting "browser" to be defined as an "application that enable = users to render arbitrary web pages" whereas other entities are = "special-purpose applications that enable users to carry out a limited = set of operations on a limited set of (web) pages". I was avoiding the words 'pages','web-server','HTTP' from my definition = as I feel that the transport and encapsulation isn't the issue. It's the = dynamic - user selected - unpredictability of the created-at-runtime = interface required by the other peer that matters here. >=20 > Gili > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb Tim Panton - Web/VoIP consultant and implementor www.westhawk.co.uk From gmartincocher@blackberry.com Wed Jan 8 07:40:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B927A1ACCE0 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CIxsCIPZtvP9 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-p02.blackberry.com (smtp-p02.blackberry.com [208.65.78.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593871ADEB5 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from xct107cnc.rim.net ([10.65.161.207]) by mhs214cnc.rim.net with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 08 Jan 2014 10:39:44 -0500 Received: from XMB111CNC.rim.net ([fe80::fcd6:cc6c:9e0b:25bc]) by XCT107CNC.rim.net ([fe80::b815:71ef:9f8f:e07c%16]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 10:39:44 -0500 From: Gaelle Martin-Cocher To: "'rtcweb@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOSELl3axZ8/ESBs/N/vsvrYpp6iOCAgADaQgCAAAguAP//uPaw Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:39:43 +0000 Message-ID: <92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1E@XMB111CNC.rim.net> References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> <24246_1389192540_52CD655C_24246_10551_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <24246_1389192540_52CD655C_24246_10551_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.160.252] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1EXMB111CNCrimnet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:40:02 -0000 --_000_92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1EXMB111CNCrimnet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 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bWw+DQo= --_000_92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1EXMB111CNCrimnet_-- From cb.list6@gmail.com Wed Jan 8 09:20:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1871AE528 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:20:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OUrm1hvNv7MY for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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<92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1E@XMB111CNC.rim.net> References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> <24246_1389192540_52CD655C_24246_10551_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1E@XMB111CNC.rim.net> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: From: "cb.list6" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c38d70bb0ac504ef78b5f8 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 17:20:46 -0000 --001a11c38d70bb0ac504ef78b5f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There are entities that are unable to comply with the license t= erms around H.264 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There are entities that are unable to accept the legal risk of shipping VP8 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There are entities that are unable to comply with the license t= erms around H.264 and there are entities that are unable to accept the leg= al risk of shipping VP8 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There are entities that are unable to comply with the license terms around H.264 and there are entities that are unable to accept t= he legal risk of shipping VP8. Additionally I am not comfortable trying = to define "browsers" 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Barely acceptabl= e 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There appear to be no entities that are prevented from shipping= one of these at this time based on the responses I have seen, however we = may find at a future time that this is not true. It also will be meaningless at a future time when a new codec comes along that is in all ways superior. I also believe that it will be reasonable to have "audio-only WebRTC devices", and those obviously won't want to ship either codec. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost= of having this code. 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All of my other objections are remedied by this option. Additionally, this entire straw poll is flawed in that the technical community is answering on behalf of their respective legal departments, who are no= t present for the discussion. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost of having this code 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost of having this code. Also unclear IPR issues around this codec. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261 is an Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost of having this code. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.263 is an older, less efficient codec but still has IPR issues that some entities will not be able to meet. There are few entities that c= an meet this by shipping VP8 and H.264. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: At this time I am not convinced that there is a way for all entities to comply with the decoding requirement. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Older less-efficient codec, IPR issues. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Code cost and IPR risk of carrying Theora, impossibility of complying by shipping VP8 and H.264 for almost all entities. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Code cost and IPR risk of carrying Theora. Also my understandin= g of Theora is that there is no separate smaller decoder-only codebase. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Codec does not provide sufficient quality at reasonable bandwidth for any use case. On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Gaelle Martin-Cocher < gmartincocher@blackberry.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > Please find below my answer to the straw poll on video codec alternatives > as requested by the Chairs > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10449.html > > > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 1. All entities MUST support VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate with > existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - One MTI is enough if the codec provides =93good enough=94 > performances. > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - There is no reason to make a distinction between browser and > non-browser. > > - One MTI is enough if the codec provides =93good enough=94 > performances. > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - Does not insure interoperability > > - This is somewhat equivalent to no MTI while slowing down the > widespread adoption of a more powerful codec by RTCWeb. > > 1. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - In terms of =93old codecs=94 H263 would be a better choice. > > - It took years to remove H261 from specifications and > platforms, RTCWeb should not mandate it back. > > 1. There is no MTI video codec > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 1. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - In terms of =93old codecs=94 H263 would be a better choice tha= n > H261. > > - It took years to remove normative support of H261 from > specifications and platforms, RTCWeb should not mandate it back. > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. All entities MUST support Theora > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - Not widely supported in hardware > > - Licensing status is not clear enough > > 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - In terms of =93old codecs=94 H263 would be a better choice tha= n > H261. > > - It took years to remove H261 from specifications and > platforms, RTCWeb should not mandate it back. > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 1. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ . > > 1. All entities MUST support H.263 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:Yes > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - Theora is not widely supported in hardware > > - Theora=92s licensing status is not clear enough > > - VP8 Brings a higher cost or does not allow to interoperate > with existing solutions/platforms. > > - VP8 is not yet a standard and would benefit of going through > the full ISO process. > > - VP8 has a declaration of un-licensable IPR, > https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ > > 1. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > - Not widely supported in hardware > > - Licensing status is not clear enough > > 1. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > Sincerely, > > Ga=EBlle > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential > information, privileged material (including material protected by the > solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-publi= c > information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intende= d > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, > please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from > your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this > transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawf= ul. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c38d70bb0ac504ef78b5f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




  1. All entities MUST support H.264

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There= are entities that are unable to comply with the license terms around H.264=

  2. All entities MUST support VP8

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There= are entities that are unable to accept the legal risk of shipping VP8

  3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There= are entities that are unable to comply with the license terms around H.264= and there are entities that are unable to accept the legal risk of shippin= g VP8

  4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST supp= ort at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Ar= e you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:= =A0There are entities that are unable to comply with the license ter= ms around H.264 and there are entities that are unable to accept the legal = risk of shipping VP8. Additionally I am not comfortable trying to define &q= uot;browsers"

  5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    =

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Barely accept= able

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = There appear to be no entities that are prevented from shipping one of thes= e at this time based on the responses I have seen, however we may find at a= future time that this is not true. It also will be meaningless at a future= time when a new codec comes along that is in all ways superior. I also bel= ieve that it will be reasonable to have "audio-only WebRTC devices&quo= t;, and those obviously won't want to ship either codec.

  6. All entities MUST support H.261

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Old i= nefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost of having this c= ode.

  7. There is no MTI video codec

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All o= f my other objections are remedied by this option. Additionally, this entir= e straw poll is flawed in that the technical community is answering on beha= lf of their respective legal departments, who are not present for the discu= ssion.

  8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at l= east one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Ar= e you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:= =A0Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost o= f having this code

  9. All entities MUST support Theora

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the cost of havi= ng this code. Also unclear IPR issues around this codec.

  10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261= is an=A0Old inefficient codec. No reason to be forced to carry the = cost of having this code.

  11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.263= is an older, less efficient codec but still has IPR issues that some entit= ies will not be able to meet. There are few entities that can meet this by = shipping VP8 and H.264.

  12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and M= UST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

  13. Ar= e you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

  14. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = At this time I am not convinced that there is a way for all entities to com= ply with the decoding requirement.

  • All entities MUST support H.263

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Older= less-efficient codec, IPR issues.

  • All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Code = cost and IPR risk of carrying Theora, impossibility of complying by shippin= g VP8 and H.264 for almost all entities.

  • All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:= Code cost and IPR risk of carrying Theora. Also my understanding of Theora= is that there is no separate smaller decoder-only codebase.

  • All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      =

    2. Do= you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Codec= does not provide sufficient quality at reasonable bandwidth for any use ca= se.




    • On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Gaelle Martin-Cocher <gmar= tincocher@blackberry.com> wrote:

    Dear all,

    <= div class=3D"im">

    =A0<= /p>

    Please find below my a= nswer to the straw poll on video codec alternatives as requested by the Cha= irs

    <= span style=3D"color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none">http://www.ietf.org/mail-= archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10449.html

    = =A0

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.264

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: Yes

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support VP8=

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Brings a higher cost= or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support both H.264= and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 One MTI is enough if= the codec provides =93good enough=94 performances.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and= VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 There is no reason t= o make a distinction between browser and non-browser.<= /p>

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 One MTI is enough if= the codec provides =93good enough=94 performances.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]:No=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Does not insure inte= roperability

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 This is somewhat equ= ivalent to no MTI while slowing down the widespread adoption of a more powe= rful codec by RTCWeb.

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.261

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In terms of =93old c= odecs=94 H263 would be a better choice.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 It took years to rem= ove H261 from specifications and platforms, RTCWeb should not mandate it ba= ck.

    1.=A0=A0=A0 There is no MTI video codec

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: Yes

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.261 and = all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In terms of =93old c= odecs=94 H263 would be a better choice than H261.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 It took years to rem= ove normative support of H261 from specifications and platforms, RTCWeb sho= uld not mandate it back.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support Theora<= /u>

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]:No=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Not widely supported= in hardware

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Licensing status is = not clear enough

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST implement at least= two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In terms of =93old c= odecs=94 H263 would be a better choice than H261.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 It took years to rem= ove H261 from specifications and platforms, RTCWeb should not mandate it ba= ck.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST implement at least= two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support decoding u= sing both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.= 264 or VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: No

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0 .=

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.263

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]:Yes

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST implement at least= two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]:No=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Theora is not widely= supported in hardware

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Theora=92s licensing= status is not clear enough

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 Brings a higher = cost or does not allow to interoperate with existing solutions/platforms.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 is not yet a sta= ndard and would benefit of going through the full ISO process.

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 VP8 has a declaratio= n of un-licensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/=A0

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support decoding u= sing Theora.

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]:No=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Not widely supported= in hardware

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Licensing status is = not clear enough

    1.=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support Motion JPE= G

    a.=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes= /No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this o= ption, if so please summarize them:

    =A0

    Sincerely,<=
/span>
    Ga=EBlle

    =A0
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Th= is transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential inform= ation, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-c= lient or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information= . Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient i= s prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immed= iately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Us= e, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by uni= ntended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --001a11c38d70bb0ac504ef78b5f8-- From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Wed Jan 8 09:47:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EE41AE037 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:47:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IBhW3iD-KM0X for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x232.google.com (mail-bk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C631ADFF3 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f50.google.com with SMTP id e11so785663bkh.9 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aqTuuKpQV/iyXa1kBxBRchDYD8Hgv/8IodaFVLko9z8=; b=CPpT8aZapoK0pdsvUiQyvBdkvAGu1oZ9YWqElm29Sf2F9uN9xeAZG7mys00o3XL66F PCoxMT0aZ0BHVOMovsP1/8jGH9U3haoIQ3jvQPH3MQYV8boJdht1f6VEynyeaaHk49+R 2vX8kFe/Co2l8qAjtU4/JvZ2eq6cy1+tT7VUUKViuSDlhYXWqiwNzYY9myyDiuH6edOe 3zoqCrqMLe9USY8ONcvvgAevQNN7wEQma9O1q0aYZk/u3u2ITX4hiVXI7GFPiqAaiIT4 q/8hFSIQ0g+FATN4fmUtg87EUwATmnZXJNIYNE1t08d4nNRosNg0XElMh3efpfS06Sde bxPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.205.65.132 with SMTP id xm4mr35956287bkb.1.1389203240378; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:47:20 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tKjnxunvyTHcVf0CGC3EqXXkXBM Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: rtcweb@ietf.org, Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com, rlb@ipv.sx, magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com, fluffy@cisco.com, ted.ietf@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 17:53:02 -0000 > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Fixating on either H.264 or VP8 was not productive and don't like the patent licensing situation. OpenH264 is generous, but far from perfect. > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Fixating on either H.264 or VP8 was not productive and choosing VP8 while the Nokia claims are unresolved is not a good plan. > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the risk, twice the maintenance burden. > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the risk, twice the maintenance burden. Risk of negotiating failure if multiple parties aren't browsers. > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Risk of negotiating failure. > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes Quality/bitrate not as bad as MJPEG. Available bitrates go up, even in mobile space. Those 256kbit/s streams are just 31.25 kibibytes per second (32 kilobyte/se= c). Implementations aren't widespread now, but were. vic, ffmpeg/libav, IVS, microsoft (M261), intel has at least one if not more (intel's ipp library 7.0), pvrg-p64 > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Risk of negotiating failure. Winding up with this situation is one thing. Choosing it is quite another. > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the maintenance burden. Licensing burden for h264, unresolved claims for vp8. > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes IPR FUD was spread in the past without any followup claims despite commercial products. http://wiki.xiph.org/Games_that_use_Theora That's no guarantee, but neither is h264. Uncertainty about its quality/bitrate is not a strong argument; tools are freely available to encode and decode. > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the maintenance burden. Licensing burden for h264, unresolved claims for vp8. H.261 can be avoid by those that can and wish to do so. > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the maintenance burden. Licensing burden for h264, licensing burden for h263, unresolved claims for vp8. > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Licensing burden for h264. > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Licensing burden for h263 > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Twice the maintenance burden. Licensing burden for h264, unresolved claims for vp8. > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Could still cause negotiation failure if the implementer just wants a rubber stamp that says 'rtcweb compliant' and does not implement Theora encoding. > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: Worse performance than h261. - Herv=E9 From aallen@blackberry.com Wed Jan 8 11:04:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184221AE52D for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:04:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZgwZ-O0fmch for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-p02.blackberry.com (smtp-p02.blackberry.com [208.65.78.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F7D1AE4D4 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from xct101cnc.rim.net ([10.65.161.201]) by mhs213cnc.rim.net with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 08 Jan 2014 14:04:21 -0500 Received: from XMB122CNC.rim.net ([fe80::28c6:fa1c:91c6:2e23]) by XCT101CNC.rim.net ([fe80::9c22:d9c:c906:c488%16]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:04:21 -0500 From: Andrew Allen To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac8MpFgjXT7YAqYkT1qhp/AXtAMnJQ== Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 19:04:20 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.160.252] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985B131XMB122CNCrimnet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 19:04:40 -0000 --_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985B131XMB122CNCrimnet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * VP8 is not yet standardized by a recognized standards organizatio= n and therefore is not subject to the obligations that standards organizati= ons place. * A declaration of un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and = this impact of this is not clear. * Just adds higher cost for interoperability with the existing depl= oyed systems which are H.264. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * One MTI is enough to ensure interoperability adding additional MT= I Codecs adds additional cost complexity and risk. * VP8 adds a higher cost to interoperate with existing deployed sys= tems which are H.264. * VP8 is not yet standardized by a recognized standards organizatio= n and therefore is not subject to the obligations that standards organizati= ons place. * A declaration of un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and = the impact of this is not clear. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * There doesn't seem to be sufficiently good reasons to have differ= ent requirements for browsers and other entities. Browsers will need to com= municate with existing H.264 systems if universal interoperability is to be= achieved. One MTI is enough to ensure interoperability adding additional M= TI Codecs adds additional cost complexity and risk. * VP8 adds a higher cost to interoperate with existing deployed sys= tems which are H.264. * VP8 is not yet standardized by a recognized standards organizatio= n and therefore is not subject to the obligations that standards organizati= ons place. * A declaration of un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and = the impact of this is not clear. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * Does not guarantee interoperability so if we can't agree then let= 's admit defeat and go with 7 * This means basically we don't have an MTI but 2 options with two = separate camps with different non interoperable codecs. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 quality = is very poor. * H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from use. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 quality = is very poor. * H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from specifications and= platforms. It is therefore not acceptable that RTCWeb now mandate it. * Since practically H.261 quality will be unacceptable to users we = will need to rely on the other two codecs so this basically gets us into th= e same situation as 5 with two separate camps with different non interopera= ble codecs 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * Theora does not have much hardware support * Licensing status is unclear 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 quality = is very poor. * H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from specifications and= platforms. It is therefore not acceptable that RTCWeb now mandate it. * Since practically H.261 quality will be unacceptable to users we = will need to rely on the other two codecs so this basically gets us into th= e same situation as 5 with two separate camps with different non interopera= ble codecs 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * Similar concerns still exist for VP8 decoding as for encoding. * VP8 adds a higher cost to interoperate with existing deployed sys= tems which are H.264. * VP8 is not yet standardized by a recognized standards organizatio= n and therefore is not subject to the obligations that standards organizati= ons place. * A declaration of un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and = the impact of this is not clear. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: c. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * Theora does not have much hardware support * Licensing status is unclear * VP8 adds a higher cost to interoperate with existing deployed sys= tems which are H.264. * VP8 is not yet standardized by a recognized standards organizatio= n and therefore is not subject to the obligations that standards organizati= ons place. * A declaration of un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and = the impact of this is not clear. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: * Theora does not have much hardware support * Licensing status is unclear 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: --------------------------------------------------------------------- This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential info= rmation, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor= -client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public informati= on. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient= is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please imm= ediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. = Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by u= nintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. --_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985B131XMB122CNCrimnet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

     

     

    1.    All entities MUST sup= port H.264

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes<= span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-ser= if";color:black">

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    2.    All entities MUST sup= port VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 is not yet st= andardized by a recognized standards organization and therefore is not subj= ect to the obligations that standards organizations place.

    ·       &= nbsp; A declaration of = un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and this impact of this is not = clear.

    ·       &= nbsp; Just adds higher = cost for interoperability with the existing deployed systems which are H.26= 4.

     

    3.    All entities MUST sup= port both H.264 and VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; One MTI is enough= to ensure interoperability adding additional MTI Codecs adds additional co= st complexity and risk.

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 adds a higher= cost to interoperate with existing deployed systems which are H.264.<= /o:p>

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 is not yet st= andardized by a recognized standards organization and therefore is not subj= ect to the obligations that standards organizations place.

    ·       &= nbsp; A declaration of = un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and the impact of this is not c= lear.

     

    4.    Browsers MUST support= both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; There doesn’= ;t seem to be sufficiently good reasons to have different requirements for = browsers and other entities. Browsers will need to communicate with existing H.264 systems if universal interoperability is to be achieve= d. One MTI is enough to ensure interoperability adding additional MTI Codec= s adds additional cost complexity and risk.

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 adds a higher= cost to interoperate with existing deployed systems which are H.264.<= /o:p>

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 is not yet st= andardized by a recognized standards organization and therefore is not subj= ect to the obligations that standards organizations place.

    ·       &= nbsp; A declaration of = un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and the impact of this is not c= lear.

     

    5.    All entities MUST sup= port at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; Does not guarante= e interoperability so if we can’t agree then let’s admit defeat= and go with 7

    ·       &= nbsp; This means basica= lly we don’t have an MTI but 2 options with two separate camps with d= ifferent non interoperable codecs.

     

    6.    All entities MUST sup= port H.261

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; H263 would be bet= ter if we are going back in time. H.261 quality is very poor.

    ·       &= nbsp; H261 is obsolete = and took years to remove from use.

     

    7.    There is no MTI video= codec

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes<= span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-ser= if";color:black">

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    8.    All entities MUST sup= port H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8=

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; H263 would be bet= ter if we are going back in time. H.261 quality is very poor.

    ·       &= nbsp; H261 is obsolete = and took years to remove from specifications and platforms. It is therefore= not acceptable that RTCWeb now mandate it.

    ·       &= nbsp; Since practically= H.261 quality will be unacceptable to users we will need to rely on the ot= her two codecs so this basically gets us into the same situation as 5 with two separate camps with different non interoperable co= decs

     

    9.    All entities MUST sup= port Theora

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; Theora does not &= nbsp;have much hardware support

    ·       &= nbsp; Licensing status = is unclear

     

    10.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; H263 would be bet= ter if we are going back in time. H.261 quality is very poor.

    ·       &= nbsp; H261 is obsolete = and took years to remove from specifications and platforms. It is therefore= not acceptable that RTCWeb now mandate it.

    ·       &= nbsp; Since practically= H.261 quality will be unacceptable to users we will need to rely on the ot= her two codecs so this basically gets us into the same situation as 5 with two separate camps with different non interoperable co= decs

     

    11.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable<= /span>

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    12.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at = least one of H.264 or VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; Similar concerns = still exist for VP8 decoding as for encoding.

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 adds a higher= cost to interoperate with existing deployed systems which are H.264.<= /o:p>

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 is not yet st= andardized by a recognized standards organization and therefore is not subj= ect to the obligations that standards organizations place.

    ·       &= nbsp; A declaration of = un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and the impact of this is not c= lear.

     

    13.  All entities MUST sup= port H.263

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:Yes

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    c.     

    14.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; Theora does not &= nbsp;have much hardware support

    ·       &= nbsp; Licensing status = is unclear

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 adds a higher= cost to interoperate with existing deployed systems which are H.264.<= /o:p>

    ·       &= nbsp; VP8 is not yet st= andardized by a recognized standards organization and therefore is not subj= ect to the obligations that standards organizations place.

    ·       &= nbsp; A declaration of = un-licensable IPR has been made against VP8 and the impact of this is not c= lear.

    15.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using Theora.

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    ·       &= nbsp; Theora does not &= nbsp;have much hardware support

    ·       &= nbsp; Licensing status = is unclear

     

    16.  All entities MUST sup= port Motion JPEG

    a.    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable<= /span>

    b.    Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Th= is transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential inform= ation, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-c= lient or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information= . Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient i= s prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immed= iately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Us= e, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by uni= ntended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
    --_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985B131XMB122CNCrimnet_-- From srdonovan@usdonovans.com Wed Jan 8 11:44:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D580F1AE12A for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:44:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC3vVC-GoP6p for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz131.inmotionhosting.com (biz131.inmotionhosting.com [173.247.247.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570631AE11C for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-76-187-100-94.tx.res.rr.com ([76.187.100.94]:50159 helo=SDmac.local) by biz131.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W0z3H-00022t-8c for rtcweb@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 11:44:31 -0800 Message-ID: <52CDAA94.70904@usdonovans.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:44:20 -0600 From: Steve Donovan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> <24246_1389192540_52CD655C_24246_10551_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBBE09@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9A1E@XMB111CNC.rim.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020901080903070900020403" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz131.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - usdonovans.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz131.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: srdonovan@usdonovans.com Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 19:44:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020901080903070900020403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: I don't see the benefit of differentiating > browsers and "other entities". Interop should exist between > all recweb implementations. > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: The selection of the MTI codec(s) must ensure > all implementations have at least one codec in common. This > option does not address that requirement. > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: The selection of the MTI codec(s) must ensure > all implementations have at least one codec in common. This > option does not address that requirement. > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > >15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: As I understand it, this does not guarantee > successful negotiation of a video codec. > >16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > > --------------020901080903070900020403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I don't see the benefit of differentiating browsers and "other entities".  Interop should exist between all recweb implementations.

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The selection of the MTI codec(s) must ensure all implementations have at least one codec in common.  This option does not address that requirement.

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The selection of the MTI codec(s) must ensure all implementations have at least one codec in common.  This option does not address that requirement.

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: As I understand it, this does not guarantee successful negotiation of a video codec.

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:




    --------------020901080903070900020403-- From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Wed Jan 8 12:31:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8D71AE1C6 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 12:31:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byYu-_lNHudV for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 12:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x22c.google.com (mail-bk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B7F1AE17F for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 12:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f44.google.com with SMTP id d7so844623bkh.3 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gfGCbgnbhzI+GmG9biYTOpBSedt7jHfn10qCkPf8ak8=; b=cDeZ1QnKRVJr1eEV+dj87W5PZWLzZPIoq9wh++csFO09tGQPQu59pA0tzmwZDUsSiI ikK56QQqes0Qsj5syYlu3aENE3IgQJWXh9wC6b2R6iVknDcehQaIjaiu8a9ek9vxftJC oQGf073EhpdQR3Vwls0Q5XaV4+xnBoTSqWqUAOPRQ/NDSwWBGHQ1IV7kynjh8NKMu4aS yvpUoDGh8QTbl6yiYe2vo3OdKOE1E9iuFXALy672/XfiH8Dmjuab0jAWBUi/0+Kym+FW CID1yliN5E027HZlSJlQ3liJWWpSvp3d10REfMpVEBEm0BqgA4IqCKOHm0wdjQZcdAEl tmDw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.231.207 with SMTP id jr15mr3753734bkb.92.1389213053923; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:30:53 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ycY5XUrB-C9Bs4--c6mSe0gibt0 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 20:31:06 -0000 On 8 January 2014 20:04, Andrew Allen wrote: > > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > =B7 H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 qual= ity > is very poor. > > =B7 H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from use. [...] > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: What makes MJPEG more acceptable than H.261 ? - Herv=E9 From gmartincocher@blackberry.com Wed Jan 8 13:20:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F2D1A1F4E for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRU6f8Tda8uL for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-p02.blackberry.com (smtp-p02.blackberry.com [208.65.78.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F1891A1F54 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from xct106cnc.rim.net ([10.65.161.206]) by mhs215cnc.rim.net with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 08 Jan 2014 16:20:39 -0500 Received: from XMB111CNC.rim.net ([fe80::fcd6:cc6c:9e0b:25bc]) by XCT106CNC.rim.net ([fe80::d824:6c98:60dc:3918%16]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:20:39 -0500 From: Gaelle Martin-Cocher To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Herv=E9_W=2E?= , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) Thread-Index: AQHPDLCNVXHg7dlbt0W76G0xI6r1spp7T8Lw Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:20:38 +0000 Message-ID: <92D0D52F3A63344CA478CF12DB0648AA548C9D27@XMB111CNC.rim.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.160.252] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:20:56 -0000 MJPEG is still available/in use on hardware platforms. It has a higher prob= ability to be effectively supported than a request to re-implement H261. = If MJEPG becomes the MTI, I am hopeful that RTCWeb will mandate a more adva= nce codec (H264 CHP, HEVC, VP9, Dhalaa, AVS2 etc) sooner than if any one of= the other proposed codecs becomes MTI. = Sincerely, Ga=EBlle = -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Herv=E9 W. Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:31 PM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: S= traw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) On 8 January 2014 20:04, Andrew Allen wrote: > > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > =B7 H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 qual= ity > is very poor. > > =B7 H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from use. [...] > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: What makes MJPEG more acceptable than H.261 ? - Herv=E9 _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------------------------------------------------------------- This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential info= rmation, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor= -client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public informati= on. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient= is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please imm= ediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. = Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by u= nintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Wed Jan 8 13:23:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CBE1A1F66 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r_jtEEFr6Lrp for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com (mail-ie0-f173.google.com [209.85.223.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC011A1F1B for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u16so192770iet.18 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:23:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GyNLXYLYXzSIQB/8+ywAT79iJraJJTBHiYsJX+EDTQc=; b=SN45G4JLjCrftGe6asjXh6bQjj/SXHmGoyWNBkWxGgI/d4nPmQtt6fOQ4JbvqTSAtz Na+8ITY+sx47SVCfHOjbjTGWoTStlp/1dzcoLPYWjLmkPO8bFzAYYZlIB2LNV0cOJEMB fBpyzkErRVI7X0AT6embsQxj36IUS5m5pKQq4olC7CcS56SrJFwkey6zCulsqMqpx5Lk 6dBzc8DBJUDWdiTeRRmaPCf59NFGkmTqAT/pMn0a1wvVxQ2l9AWw7QOWS/qJeR73M9AW H0Xh8e3temCiZZU2tq7NibyEn210X79k9LfpuNy9pO17KFf+EhJhHhaFUe+AhdkLHsA7 nb9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlDGtA1ORrL3Xjw6IL0J/x6stSbZjCW9wdDlGuBTjWBF+JT8cInDukkGEwahQq4ZEHFmXPF X-Received: by 10.50.30.42 with SMTP id p10mr100097igh.5.1389216183662; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a1sm4272411igo.0.2014.01.08.13.23.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:23:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CDC1B4.5000509@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 16:23:00 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:23:14 -0000 On 08/01/2014 3:30 PM, Hervé W. wrote: > On 8 January 2014 20:04, Andrew Allen wrote: >> >> 6. All entities MUST support H.261 >> >> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No >> >> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> >> · H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 quality >> is very poor. >> >> · H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from use. > [...] > >> 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG >> >> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable >> >> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: > > What makes MJPEG more acceptable than H.261 ? > I was just about to post the same question. I fail to see the logic :) Gili From xavier.marjou@gmail.com Wed Jan 8 15:23:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2C01AD8F9 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:23:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ok8tKBUaK85a for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22e.google.com (mail-la0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417AF1AD34C for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f46.google.com with SMTP id eh20so1648308lab.19 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:22:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=tSVmQsLSVoZ2bb7UYlNTdBCXpGYx+vYdL6+g4Fk/bd8=; b=VwohKG6bRFpluZLTsqwE6R23/HqGU0+mGWvZqiFrNJGq6S4e3/p9tOnbLPLdwllJDS qSfEmvVQcNfRkvSBWAMxf4Xc6GGjvPQzA4EAwkiGuu6ORBbfiPLVeKJ7qE3gGsE/i6rt erBiKTqTgDEjrjCRcy0wso8SUJw6APuhYZweJL7bpnYNyJuLJPtQAXjf/Ro0kkA7yftl gLREol/g1jRTpyxsBv5zWjK0KGCeJFpB/Rbm8zPGN8Sj/wEo4sp9lYyOr+4SOHSW6X9z lvAmfVvzdRs7rOnc3yEEayl98012NOKGXX2nUl8J53HFPbMMd0BObUcJG/4rOX77ELud F4/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.44.167 with SMTP id f7mr6383193lam.64.1389223366180; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:22:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: xavier.marjou@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.212.69 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:22:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 00:22:45 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0tfvWgxrLnJatjHHipYN-mMf2Kw Message-ID: From: Xavier Marjou To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158c40e41463e04ef7dc5e4 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:23:01 -0000 --089e0158c40e41463e04ef7dc5e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding (ie: cost + lower quality video) needed for interworking with existing video services + IPR uncertainties* 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *c.f. 2.b for VP8* 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *c.f 2.b for VP8* 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding possibly needed even for basic calls between different types of browsers.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Law quality + transcoding needed for interoperability* 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 5.b* 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.261* 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability* 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:* Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.261* 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.263* 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Same as 5.b* 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability* 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability* 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Transcoding needed for interoperability + bad quality + bit rate* On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps = in > Video Codec Selection Process=94 ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinio= n > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed t= o > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that yo= u: > Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really = don=92t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with t= his > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if s= o > please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it = with > a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of th= e > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objectio= n, > leave that question blank. > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the W= G > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this thread= ! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to sen= d > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 201= 1 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T re= c > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --089e0158c40e41463e04ef7dc5e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">= =A0

    1.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.264

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    =A0

    2.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them: Transcoding (ie: cost + lower quality video) needed for interworking with existing vide= o services + IPR uncertainties

    =A0

    3.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: c.f. 2.b for VP8=

    =A0

    4.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and V= P8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: c.f 2.b for VP8<= /b>

    =A0

    5.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 <= /span>Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Transcoding poss= ibly needed even for basic calls between different types of browsers.=

    =A0

    6.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.261

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Law quality + tr= anscoding needed for interoperability

    =A0

    7.=A0=A0=A0=A0 There is no MTI video codec

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 <= /span>Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them: same as 5.b

    =A0=

    8.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them: Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.261

    =A0

    9.=A0=A0=A0=A0 All entities MUST support Theora

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Transcoding needed for interoperability

    =A0

    10.=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 <= /span>Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO=

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them: Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.261

    =A0

    11.=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them: Transcoding needed for interoperability if VP8 or H.263

    =A0

    12.=A0 All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using = at least one of H.264 or VP8

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same as 5.b<= /span>

    =A0

    13.=A0 All entities MUST support H.263

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Transcoding need= ed for interoperability

    =A0

    14.=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Transcoding need= ed for interoperability

    =A0

    15.=A0 All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Transcoding need= ed for interoperability

    =A0

    16.=A0 All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Do you have any objections to this opt= ion, if so please summarize them: Transcoding needed for interoperability + bad quality + bit rate



    On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gma= il.com> wrote:

    Dear WG,


    This is the email announcing the straw poll a= cross the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t rea= d the =93Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/m= sg10448.html )then please do that = before you continue to read.


    The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG ch= airs will use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternati= ve to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that = has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide= your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll= will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.


    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alte= rnative that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions ar= e listed.


    The first question is =93Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indica= te that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = =3D I really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = =3D I can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. = =A0


    The second question is =93Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objecti= on at a minimum indicate it with a =93Yes=94. =A0=A0Please also add a short= (1-sentence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =A0(If= you wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate threa= d). =A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.


    Please provide input on as many of the altern= atives as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more we= ll informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to = be brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave b= lank, will simply be considered as one without any input from you. =A0


    WG participants, please do not comment on any= one=92s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are m= aking life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw= poll. =A0


    If discussion causes you to update your posit= ion, please feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread = prior to the closing date.



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --089e0158c40e41463e04ef7dc5e4-- From juberti@google.com Wed Jan 8 18:20:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D229E1ADFCE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tFXE_R1kXNis for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x231.google.com (mail-ve0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D9F1ADFD3 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f177.google.com with SMTP id db12so1915466veb.22 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:20:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:cc :content-type; bh=IwyMIRfS2Xmgmnbr6Khh+WOu6yXSBQJGxLZBsbaIBwo=; b=d+h2KJXcS4xFxYHkNgSFB5oMnK8vtQVesSy9j4+lajB2FCwxyPWB1rxIRhrSMCnf1b RkYNR/yapi/o5AKrmQidx5ZViUhEj+2vbbrGm4iipTOnGWOzJ7aelaI2Po7uhia9PFs4 w5G85v+87oafXQ0b9FZaJABGE8Ok8nlz7c43ydnS0BgYtIaDLlHp0fS3U75XFCgb71q6 V9UPvQsuG40PDEXrMcm0W+k+cA5o+yCnv1Bv/IascrIZOWLLzy4PrciMHNNLQayOldPY qX2Wk8pOspvKkXQ7b7Ul6zjGJXe6ZQWyMIY8SGfswYKPe7fQlKSEISjbQDIwc92E4/+i 1cRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:cc:content-type; bh=IwyMIRfS2Xmgmnbr6Khh+WOu6yXSBQJGxLZBsbaIBwo=; b=KNtBGyKzqNmTsePB+RI0ZPHqgIQS3xe6U2Gdh3IqRqpkJN/qnVFgGAE5Tpe8kvSFMR nuSsrbgE+I99099mo/djkk5mkf4mmoV0wMTW23weOByU9dtid2dH0fqIePooYA0U8tIG XAXjc3bLxu49M25bWKt7nVtFQm3gCz1GP+OV566nDrNFdo87RBmiXYEih02ow2HNLG1t QBZTNS6S+AhgtSBxsj1/oduJUq8oiI7I0NsLEyc3f44EYipMbRKBfhdm9ykpe5nmcigk ORE+I4TNzndkB/0OkXj1uA6L8Sew2EKemGOGnJEkprr9ZQRhood+TKfxzqf55JVQm/XM wrtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk4GWbZUb1CVxz2N15yJnB+95d+YZht94+aR7jHx+YcLRRpHSHO4kAZegcv5k1Lquo+wd9FN2Q4YhykvH07iEGlEYApV6Jl2ljQK1UVXFVeQcl7xFci3DlRqScCVQTiH407RIxW/CAZOiUM7NHNePwJU10IvJH4DRwJ2BIa+0zD2OUbUy8EDAxzDdbFPZPiMLr+1Ynq X-Received: by 10.58.200.168 with SMTP id jt8mr321771vec.30.1389234021789; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:20:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.53.74 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:20:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:20:01 -0800 Message-ID: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6bd7661084f04ef80402d Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:20:33 -0000 --047d7bd6bd7661084f04ef80402d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. This forces all conformant WebRTC implementations to have to deal with MPEG-LA licensing restrictions, thereby stunting the growth of the ecosystem. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. No objections. Google is a strong supporter of this option and is willing to provide a binary VP8 plugin, if doing so would make life easier for certain WebRTC implementations. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Not possible for implementations that can't deal with MPEG-LA restrictions to be conformant. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Like #3, but non-browser endpoints can be completely conformant. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. This is the best of the no-guaranteed-interop outcomes; at least the possible cases that app developers need to handle are known. Of the "acceptable", it is my least-preferred choice. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. The quality of H.261 is low enough that I don't think it is possible to create a competitive application that works between apps that only agree on H.261. 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. No interoperability, or limits on what codecs might be encountered. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Like #10, but worse because all implementations need to incur the technical cost of a H.261 implementation. 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. See #6. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. No objections; better than #8, since browsers are not forced to deal with H.261. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Worse than #10. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Not clear what the benefit is over #3. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Worse than #1. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Worse than #10. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. See #9. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Worse than #6. --047d7bd6bd7661084f04ef80402d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. This forces all conformant WebRTC implementations to have to= deal with MPEG-LA licensing restrictions, thereby stunting the growth of t= he ecosystem.

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = YES

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. No objections. Google is a strong supporter of this option a= nd is willing =C2=A0to provide a binary VP8 plugin, if doing so would make = life easier for certain WebRTC implementations.

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. Not possible for implementations that can't deal with MP= EG-LA restrictions to be conformant.

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUS= T support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. Like #3, but non-browser endpoints can be completely conform= ant.

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. This is the best of the no-guaranteed-interop outcomes; at l= east the possible cases that app developers need to handle are known. Of th= e "acceptable", it is my least-preferred choice.

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. The quality of H.261 is low enough that I don't think it= is possible to create a competitive application that works between apps th= at only agree on H.261.

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. No interoperability, or limits on what codecs might be encou= ntered.

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST suppor= t at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. Like #10, but worse because all implementations need to incu= r the technical cost of a H.261 implementation.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. See #6.

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 61}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. No objections; better than #8, since browsers are not forced= to deal with H.261.

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 63}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. Worse than #10.

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8,= and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

        1. Not clear what the benefit is over #3.

        <= /ol>

      3. = All entities MUST support H.263

        1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

          1. Worse than #1.

      4. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, The= ora}

        1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

        2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

          1. Worse than #10.

      5. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

        <= /li>

        1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

        2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

          1. See #9.

      6. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

        1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them:

          1. Worse than #6.






    --047d7bd6bd7661084f04ef80402d-- From Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com Thu Jan 9 04:02:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25C21AE2B3 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:02:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07PtG4qy_33O for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-da01.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.128.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F5E1AE04B for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.20]) by mgw-da01.nokia.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id s09BttQ6014897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:55:56 +0200 Received: from 008-AM1MPN1-043.mgdnok.nokia.com ([169.254.3.242]) by 008-AM1MMR1-011.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.20]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.002; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:55:54 +0000 From: To: Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOUTWziT+aaxkGPTlwTUjWPipp8coIQ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tituslabs-classifications-30: TLPropertyRoot=Nokia;Confidentiality=Nokia Internal Use Only; x-titus-version: 3.5.9.3 x-headerinfofordlp: x-tituslabs-classificationhash-30: VgNFIFU9Hx+/nZJb9Kg7IuXLQ03m+qIikfGzCPlyW5FEPtqO5h4dAVXDREhvVPO/WLiY0zjJQA6JmOKtXIVwyp78A5K6lcM0WXcNqm0ABKA6CBZ5Hub1rjDuHNneVOI0JL8eiDeadCGMwgk2SSo+RFpVBuEW0q/BiayW0jHK8Y8kpSneQa55joJvjLrxkTla6fcyr7AfYigyIXle4opTznKmJ7p/PkctyiunpqzCuzTDgH6A6fBhH/FnnSLJt7uy x-originating-ip: [10.236.6.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:02:33 -0000 Hi all, Here's my input to the poll. >=20 > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. Th= is makes it unsuitable as mandatory to implement. > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of=20 > this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST=20 > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this=20 > option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Making browsers a special case creates confusion.=20 > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you=20 > in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : This is in practice no better than "There is no MTI video codec" from inter= operability perspective. VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.=20 > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= .=20 > 7. There is no MTI video codec > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable.=20 > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Does not accomplish interoperability but still better than some of the eith= er-or or lower quality fallback options. In case none of the other options = gets a clear consensus behind it, the WG should accept this option for now = rather than spending more time arguing. Otherwise we risk having many more = areas of interop problems for the next 2-3 years, after which all of the co= decs now considered may be legacy from competitive services perspective any= way.=20 > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at=20 > least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acc= eptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= . > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared to= other codecs being considered.=20 > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} .=20 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= . > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} .=20 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : This would achieve interoperability with reasonable minimum quality, but Op= tion 13 would achieve the same in practice in a cleaner way. These two-out-= of-three options should not be a preferred way for standards setting.=20 VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and=20 > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in=20 > favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion. Benef= its are not clear enough. =20 VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable.=20 > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : This is not the best option, but as a fallback better than H.261 or Theora.= Quality would be acceptable for some use cases. H.263 is still somewhat wi= dely available.=20 > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} =20 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared to= other codecs being considered. > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.=20 > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion. =20 > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this=20 > option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : >=20 MJPEG is too inefficient to be useful in most situations. Regards, Markus From mcasas@google.com Thu Jan 9 04:30:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C3A1AE230 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:30:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9NiGct-yvn-o for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x22b.google.com (mail-ob0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE86E1AD8CD for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id wo20so1196033obc.30 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 04:30:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=KYFfg9Kks19L3Z7CMS0JxXVG9PEOEPX8/ZO2ukEj6Do=; b=UKACApgIG6lxkYIsonLfXWV0ILnO4ZY6p3MEo/1GUZinXnFK3a2YposYars8IOGgtx TI9t8I1ZUhDKbfrN6G8WT9fn2R51wEKKpq8AE+o0R0XXVegIoqxirVvVAgkyVgqVR23G fkLgx1XLeOgoIJlpY/1RDXFsfNbUa1K3RhqcWnwIM1792uCgd6Ff1dwxIg1EB6env9oN IBI3QhxBZcj1H8fTGDbqVzIYlu928fSIYbFjXIjMECbcikiZsXTXo62GkSxlVUTZCe3A N7KmEximhKvOYeSkYjy6aer9te/SKDw4oLMij7cRoJAw2MF4Z3HMYTq85AZ/VAIwCDT+ aLCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=KYFfg9Kks19L3Z7CMS0JxXVG9PEOEPX8/ZO2ukEj6Do=; b=EnTfgfWiE6GhT0pmwI90w5bJ5P8CEmeAkuffAaKBqsie2oK88ESKCItUcdiiYtHAGM a2/QaWuYGzGxHXHh9/veRH6lrQRoPJhG00vl1cKgsI+fTTJN3nHUE3kFvmxdz+pTE2yw Zkz6MrSvd6MfSbAl1/JnxgeErOwQp6t9IBL3AxtmLD04C4x1EShzKKEFUCe/xurhm7Dv ar2LGDBVPfJtdPKpGA52RKy8GVaJYpNeGNTYD47+AMjnaXTStFUK5LaKOE5EywECvkja C3o4Yqw3aFFkUFk2QwkR/qudx7ZQZ7rsyzt63gDzuYsYWwC7G6jHQkcbUWmcu75Pj7QC saEg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl5hGi3zDfRWpI7bx4wQBKrBMzMJmiD0YDmB1sYLafOR9eYWhxWZ2Gmrz2lP01pQAV24n3Sx9Y1Zdw8O6LnPOx+e8DzOT+ZBy6+Jm7uHQuC1gix05/UU9kPW146+pId0cnX0H6szo1zW03ouO8IXjcjLJZwvQZFzZFrQrcpcaFlEWs1uEM/z0MkQ7yyruRYSpNYFIw0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.35.194 with SMTP id k2mr2092923oej.42.1389270607945; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 04:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.176.10 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:30:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:30:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: Miguel Casas-sanchez To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0112cb5615730d04ef88c568 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 04:42:03 -0800 Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:30:52 -0000 --089e0112cb5615730d04ef88c568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: -- Miguel Casas-Sanchez | Gatopardo del Software | mcasas@google.com | +46 (0)70 322 0306 --089e0112cb5615730d04ef88c568 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    1. All entities MUST su= pport H.264

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entities MU= ST support VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MU= ST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4. Browsers MUST s= upport both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.26= 4 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5. All entities MU= ST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6. All entities MU= ST support H.261

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is no MTI= video codec

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8. All entities MU= ST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP= 8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9. All entities MU= ST support Theora

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

        2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10. All entities MU= ST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entities MU= ST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12. All entities MU= ST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding usi= ng at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entities MU= ST support H.263

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14. All entities MU= ST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entities MU= ST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16. All entities MU= ST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

        2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:


    --

    <= td nowrap style=3D"border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(213,15,37);b= order-top-width:2px"> Miguel Casas-Sanchez=C2=A0|
    =C2=A0Gatopardo del = Software | =C2=A0mcasas@google.= com=C2=A0|=C2=A0+46 (0)70 322 0306
    =C2=A0
    --089e0112cb5615730d04ef88c568-- From lgeyser@gmail.com Thu Jan 9 06:16:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C1D1AE31E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:16:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DfeV_C_0WOER for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x236.google.com (mail-lb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383E51AE309 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id l4so2407562lbv.27 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 06:16:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=PShY1Y/DFuU+9t3WgD5JAmcOUyT/zx7whI9rFuPTdHs=; b=YVEOabUfSZcf7SJhl20WDRk+GGaFbE2NK8dY0YUikmK6qdtcqoXvbzmn/SP+vcjccn DfOLvC+wzdNbB5Xsm7gUO01i5SeN4nETdnG+6HTXR6UYUY6DLgDN4EKcxdrpqLV2yDbj 5lJdvXoqGH8+ctYZxovojRa/XoWY/lnWrfz0+8i1orJNAJpqOimVVjjiwgjhTs0wL/zB EiWM8JCNG+fnrkW7WjVIRSrQM6OxuVCcXRpDUfeiF+uOFUJ5BsR1LLJYEp/F4fRRM8Fu mTKuGQeYyu84urw8hM/ysWTxB/0TkFn+P3sFkPEZz5I3Gu/BbCiA86zT7blOxsWtZL0a Muvw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.12.106 with SMTP id x10mr1246769lbb.61.1389276964857; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 06:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.67.242 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:16:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:16:04 +0200 Message-ID: From: Leon Geyser To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3f154fc2c8804ef8a3f05 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:16:22 -0000 --001a11c3f154fc2c8804ef8a3f05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too strict requirements 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too strict requirements 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won't help interoperability. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won't help interoperability. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won't help interoperability. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Very bandwidth intensive. On 9 January 2014 13:55, wrote: > Hi all, > > Here's my input to the poll. > > > > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > YES. > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. This makes it unsuitable as mandatory to implement. > > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of > > this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. > > > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this > > option > > [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Making browsers a special case creates confusion. > > > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you > > in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > This is in practice no better than "There is no MTI video codec" from > interoperability perspective. > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. > > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough > supported. > > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > Acceptable. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Does not accomplish interoperability but still better than some of the > either-or or lower quality fallback options. In case none of the other > options gets a clear consensus behind it, the WG should accept this option > for now rather than spending more time arguing. Otherwise we risk having > many more areas of interop problems for the next 2-3 years, after which all > of the codecs now considered may be legacy from competitive services > perspective anyway. > > > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > > least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough > supported. > > > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared > to other codecs being considered. > > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. > > H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough > supported. > > > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > This would achieve interoperability with reasonable minimum quality, but > Option 13 would achieve the same in practice in a cleaner way. These > two-out-of-three options should not be a preferred way for standards > setting. > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. > > > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in > > favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion. > Benefits are not clear enough. > > VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and > recognized standardization process. It provides no additional technical > value over H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has > wide hardware support, and is included in various other video related > standards. > > > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > Acceptable. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > This is not the best option, but as a fallback better than H.261 or > Theora. Quality would be acceptable for some use cases. H.263 is still > somewhat widely available. > > > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared > to other codecs being considered. > > > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion. > > > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this > > option > > [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > NO. > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > MJPEG is too inefficient to be useful in most situations. > > Regards, > Markus > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c3f154fc2c8804ef8a3f05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    1. All en= tities MUST support H.264

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entiti= es MUST support VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entiti= es MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too stric= t requirements

    4. Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Too stri= ct requirements

    5. All entiti= es MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won'= t help interoperability.

    6. All entiti= es MUST support H.261

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is n= o MTI video codec

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won'= t help interoperability.

    8. All entiti= es MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 a= nd VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9. All entiti= es MUST support Theora

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

        2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10. All entiti= es MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

        2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entiti= es MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12. All entiti= es MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encodin= g using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entiti= es MUST support H.263

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14. All entiti= es MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entiti= es MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Won't= help interoperability.

    16. All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Very band= width intensive.



    On 9 January 2014 13:55, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia= .com> wrote:
    Hi all,

    Here's my input to the poll.

    >
    > 1. All entities MUST support H.264
    > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    YES.

    > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:
    >

    > 2. All entities MUST support VP8
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards. Th= is makes it unsuitable as mandatory to implement.

    > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 =A0. Are you in favor = of
    > this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards.
    > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST
    > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 =A0. Are you in favor of this > option
    > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    Making browsers a special case creates confusion.

    > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 =A0. Are yo= u
    > in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    This is in practice no better than "There is no MTI video codec" = from interoperability perspective.

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards.
    > 6. All entities MUST support H.261
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= .

    > 7. There is no MTI video codec
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Acceptable.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    Does not accomplish interoperability but still better than some of the eith= er-or or lower quality fallback options. In case none of the other options = gets a clear consensus behind it, the WG should accept this option for now = rather than spending more time arguing. Otherwise we risk having many more = areas of interop problems for the next 2-3 years, after which all of the co= decs now considered may be legacy from competitive services perspective any= way.

    > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/N= o/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= .

    > 9. All entities MUST support Theora
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared to= other codecs being considered.

    > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} = =A0.
    > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards.
    H.261 does not offer high enough quality and is not widely enough supported= .

    > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} = =A0.
    > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    This would achieve interoperability with reasonable minimum quality, but Op= tion 13 would achieve the same in practice in a cleaner way. These two-out-= of-three options should not be a preferred way for standards setting.

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards.
    > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 =A0. Are you = in
    > favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion. Benef= its are not clear enough.

    VP8 has not been developed and is not maintained through an open and recogn= ized standardization process. It provides no additional technical value ove= r H.264, which is widely used in real-time video conferencing, has wide har= dware support, and is included in various other video related standards.
    > 13. All entities MUST support H.263
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Acceptable.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    This is not the best option, but as a fallback better than H.261 or Theora.= Quality would be acceptable for some use cases. H.263 is still somewhat wi= dely available.

    > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    There has been very little analysis on Theora in WebRTC context compared to= other codecs being considered.

    > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    > =A0. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    Making a distinction between encoding and decoding creates confusion.

    > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG =A0. Are you in favor of thi= s
    > option
    > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:
    >

    MJPEG is too inefficient to be useful in most situations.

    Regards,
    =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Markus
    ___________________________________= ____________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a11c3f154fc2c8804ef8a3f05-- From gavin.llewellyn@crocodilertc.net Thu Jan 9 08:39:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996F21ADFB9 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIHnFPuQzdKN for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22f.google.com (mail-la0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14C41ADF7F for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id eh20so139124lab.34 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 08:39:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=crocodilertc.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=O8r6q7zV54puAsi1zGPyVLVHsVwmRFPxtzM9xeIcg0s=; b=MyN7xRNqBQdQ0fam1Hf64Ut+YYVZo+p/Qt+aC2zMUQF+6xKXW7PygXC6Vg9yBt0vNq /mtbtq46gv5dQd2aYYuMUG82YuS2w9RzPRD6orMeWyPcG7/qBzAlzdYPEtq/6GJXZq5C GJ990wwUAdniJJcWzz2UPvetJxdIp7yXxfPTw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=O8r6q7zV54puAsi1zGPyVLVHsVwmRFPxtzM9xeIcg0s=; b=fKA8lTiPaIvAjBxQaHpACMVwzKj7tbfHLdHM6gBuYEDEg+N8/YbeAHxvwsNMF6wonJ XS9nYX5BKwour9G4iOGwMiH7ZC6M55TJc6hHO3jCArt4F/y83wC30IjiZKk/5NdXtYtU AlpHN3aO137jsXI/rLnnfXwjuouzIUem94kPuEBUceGHgaWX8EemM+mab7OdOD9YdwAn P2o4cXiJR1E/laLwClQ/yhdR29Ltj3pmEWgLQ20O8I4f3Y55kBzvK1buayAWjduhD1d+ pvl90HvvNy4GIRwpwapi7jgNgQjL1jW8W0299wIJGw1D/CxSKyR8mj/EZ3Dvfr83OeXZ 5EdA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkahsuMnIJ7iVH62A/EuzPevjDCyqMA04oHGJJoFTQO0UKVNZTWlx9FywO/6A7Gj+6jlx6b MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.209.66 with SMTP id mk2mr1597065lbc.30.1389285552570; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 08:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.56.135 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:39:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:39:12 +0000 Message-ID: From: Gavin Llewellyn To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 16:39:24 -0000 > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I think audio-only (perhaps accompanied with a still picture transferred over a DataChannel) would give a better user experience than poor quality video. > 7. There is no MTI video codec > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I think we should aim for guaranteed interoperability by implementing at most two codecs. > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 6b. > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: If you're going to mandate a single codec, at least make it one of the two real contenders - don't try to achieve compromise by making everyone equally unhappy. > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 6b. > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Guarantees licensing headaches, but still gives you a sub-optimal result. > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Seriously? -- Principal Design Engineer Crocodile RCS Ltd From elagerway@gmail.com Thu Jan 9 09:13:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281471ACCE0 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:13:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rj0ycKdxjiBt for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22e.google.com (mail-wg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B057B1AE416 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id x12so748091wgg.25 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=IKkyXOs5HSXepRD3v7EydTlwA+IUdmIulnzw04JG5AI=; b=qiDopf5pl241j7MCEgo3AxxSa0HcQnX/ohRzhu0CedJDZpL0jdc7V0ZkXT3j/H8FUw ufbV7l4pLCBh9E92rCEzduSgHTL1OE63BgojBG2ajJk3sMsXgbKKxKtuu0e7I54RRtpx piNcJ/NYfYhpwZD8EqMUAC1QX92VNu2ZpST7AjZylI9AHk3iZO+VqPpwBBJEa+ZD5Vbp K/yBXkLvKvb/qOdRyHVdfcFcp9KsrBmNk1oRWkwOQEHYZA13qH6g+pOT28BHiH3DTeGZ Sp95WlpdDMTR9zk9B40cxZ1R4K6InUhlJbgDbcn/Dhf6nyfuLifiCJf38opAL0Dl+c6w uxNw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.120.41 with SMTP id kz9mr3982440wjb.92.1389287618377; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) Sender: elagerway@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.121.137 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:13:38 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: niBh35GrRi-vkAGV8vE8RRWUrlY Message-ID: From: Erik Lagerway To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01182824fc008a04ef8cbabb Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:13:53 -0000 --089e01182824fc008a04ef8cbabb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Insisting on royalty bearing codec will have an adverse > effect on software development, specifically with indie development in > mind. I would take the IPR issues over royalties.* > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *It seems this codec is getting closer to MPEG-LA thumbs up > so I don't see why we should not all use this codec as a minimum. It's also > the current codec in the majority of WebRTC implementations today.* > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 1.* > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *This is likely the best scenario after VP8* > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Feels like we are going backwards here.* > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *If we can't agree on a specific codec this could be a way > forward and put the MTI issue to rest.* > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 6* > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Too obscure.* > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Mandating one codec is hard enough.* > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 10* > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 10* > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 6* > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 10* > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 9* > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *See 9* > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --089e01182824fc008a04ef8cbabb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: Insisting on royalty=A0bearing=A0codec will have an adverse effect on software developm= ent, specifically with indie development in mind. I would take the IPR issu= es over royalties.

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: YES

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: It seems this codec is gett= ing closer to MPEG-LA thumbs up so I don't see why we should not all us= e this codec as a minimum. It's also the current codec in the majority = of WebRTC implementations today.

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 1.

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: YES

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: This is likely the best sce= nario after VP8

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: =A0Acceptable

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: Feels like we are going bac= kwards here.

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: Acceptable

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: If we can't agree on a = specific codec this could be a way forward and put the MTI issue to rest.

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 6

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: Too obscure.

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: Mandating one codec is hard= enough.

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 10

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 10

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 6

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 10

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 9

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them: See 9



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --089e01182824fc008a04ef8cbabb-- From bemasc@google.com Thu Jan 9 09:18:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55831AE47A for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDHU6zPWNFfV for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-x22f.google.com (mail-vb0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C364A1AE45C for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id w8so196949vbj.6 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1EApBlgqzGM0aRWsiPrI26GUclzww98HSLaAlMdWNdk=; b=XQDmPbrJGofRCp+jxeVkaBT8X22dTjwbwQMua1i908jFZRpfVlKR/jV6IGq4sSpzAD FwN9bIW1XFqqX4hxp2+Btny28MlcEwnP3k6dHnRzW1lQCuyl6FRyO6m+7yOd7pNdUoBW 8e5bpvim8vp3/5jSnBfFd2NYnAmGBnjVOCKCY7xu+purnlCEQfo0RjXzi4zlOCGp+kTH +LQ6rjEl/kbFK6EPGQY8Wvr/s4IdL7lnQOJmE1r566Zb+/jnjIzzYB3Lel4J5nFRwhBk LtTv9bkbktrkuwW6FmGNz0AkIRyM0CXDYdgMQ2HAnX75+EIyfPOgE2yP/oTG19qTEcCV hUXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1EApBlgqzGM0aRWsiPrI26GUclzww98HSLaAlMdWNdk=; b=H5HzV7NJ7iJXTNJJ7zklyFYMOMM9kaQCHTqTM2/laHZByfevtzCz86nTgp08u+UCx1 edQkmZYTuNNUuHhckxtqplrFMZTCqeF4bR4UA/6i02gpRu2BdMr1LERrOmToSz9ZlRIw VVYzR1fbTqlJXGDv09dCt80kjcMr21dtyEPu65XPdC41i3K+5n31vX1pQRk91XThoLWt h4Md7Taw5Pa05QUYYqNkcCtE0du68e2xage02UpiX1DtYfE3cumlvGgfmsqgQssofpGA Go+jGo29Y8YSkt1iGNSKgHaEVWi5t55CLxBxRjWyblvXJp7l0vFwNgPpFM6gqy88blAq xS5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn1Y/A3ixJhrMahEBTZlJ5N66IJG6beHzaSdxDU7wa08QRLGOmNG+3cag3+b/Jtl35DlUpNIwywkI7eTW4fLuex7Wi3iqA3qiwsR4il/+HsteWcsbaJdA1mASk2Z1kzlnBY57ysC7XqiknHCBeGk2MkCi9rRDkE3Hz7cThjQFBLDjcCvsvWORfvlF/RU6G6sD4EwJgq MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.36.14 with SMTP id m14mr2199263vdj.79.1389287895737; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.24.73 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:18:15 -0800 Message-ID: From: Benjamin Schwartz To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3079bfec84429d04ef8ccbec Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:18:33 -0000 --20cf3079bfec84429d04ef8ccbec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We are discussing not just an IETF standard but a Web standard. Web standards must take an even stronger stance against legal straitjackets because usage is enormous in scale and unpredictably creative in nature. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. I think remaining opposition to VP8 MTI is based in large part on a perception of risk that will quickly dissipate. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Prefer #4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: An ecosystem where all the large browser providers support both codecs would be good for small providers of webrtc-enabled browsers, programs, and devices, who might only be able to ship one codec. However, this option makes no distinction, e.g. requiring every copy of Gnome Epiphany and KDE Konqueror to include h.264 enc and dec in order to be compliant. A "MUST support one, SHOULD support both" might be acceptable. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES, BUT I reject the phrasing of this question, because I believe the option on the mailing list was raised without resolving the distinction between H.261 and MPEG-1 Part 2. I believe that MPEG-1 Part 2 is a suitable MTI codec for rtcweb. It was completed 24 years ago, and finalized 22 years ago, so its IPR status is clear. It has widespread hardware and software support, is very low complexity to decode in software, and has compression efficiency similar to DVD video. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Sometimes it is smarter to admit failure than to pretend success. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES, with the caveat of #6 (MPEG-1 Part 2). 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. Theora, a.k.a. VP3.2, is similar in techniques and performance to MPEG-4 Part 2 or H.263+. Its long-standing broad deployment, deliberately old-fashioned internal design, and MPEG LA's "granting Google a license to techniques that may be essential to VP8 and earlier-generation VPx video compression technologies", combine to make its IPR status exceptionally clear. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes, with the caveat of #6 (MPEG-1 Part 2). 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. I'm not aware of any IPR benefit conferred by H.263 over H.264. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: A decode-only MTI doesn't accomplish much, but I suppose it's better than nothing. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE. It wouldn't be interoperable video, but at least it would get us interoperable slideshows. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: --20cf3079bfec84429d04ef8ccbec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  • All en= tities MUST support H.264

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We are di= scussing not just an IETF standard but a Web standard. =C2=A0Web standards = must take an even stronger stance against legal straitjackets because usage= is enormous in scale and unpredictably creative in nature.

  • All enti= ties MUST support VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. =C2=A0I think remaining= opposition to VP8 MTI is based in large part on a perception of risk that = will quickly dissipate.

    2. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All enti= ties MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0Pre= fer #4.

  • Browsers= MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one = of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0An = ecosystem where all the large browser providers support both codecs would b= e good for small providers of webrtc-enabled browsers, programs, and device= s, who might only be able to ship one codec. =C2=A0However, this option mak= es no distinction, e.g. requiring every copy of Gnome Epiphany and KDE Konq= ueror to include h.264 enc and dec in order to be compliant. =C2=A0A "= MUST support one, SHOULD support both" might be acceptable.

  • All enti= ties MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0ACCEPTABLE

      <= /li>

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST support H.261

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0YES, BUT I reject the = phrasing of this question, because I believe the option on the mailing list= was raised without resolving the distinction between H.261 and MPEG-1 Part= 2. =C2=A0I believe that MPEG-1 Part 2 is a suitable MTI codec for rtcweb. = =C2=A0It was completed 24 years ago, and finalized 22 years ago, so its IPR= status is clear. =C2=A0It has widespread hardware and software support, is= very low complexity to decode in software, and has compression efficiency = similar to DVD video.

    2. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • There is= no MTI video codec

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0ACCEPTABLE

      <= /li>

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0Som= etimes it is smarter to admit failure than to pretend success.

  • All enti= ties MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264= and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0YES, with the caveat o= f #6 (MPEG-1 Part 2).

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST support Theora

    1. <= p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0YES. = =C2=A0Theora, a.k.a. VP3.2, is similar in techniques and performance to MPE= G-4 Part 2 or H.263+. =C2=A0Its long-standing broad deployment, deli= berately old-fashioned internal design, and MPEG LA's "granting Go= ogle a license to techniques that may be essential to VP8 and earlier-gener= ation VPx video compression technologies", combine to make its IPR sta= tus exceptionally clear.

    2. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0

  • All enti= ties MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0Yes, with the caveat o= f #6 (MPEG-1 Part 2).

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0NO. =C2=A0I'm not = aware of any IPR benefit conferred by H.263 over H.264.

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding = using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST support H.263

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0YES

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities= MUST support decoding using Theora.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0ACCEPTABLE.

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0A d= ecode-only MTI doesn't accomplish much, but I suppose it's better t= han nothing.

  • All entities= MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0ACCEPTABLE. =C2=A0It w= ouldn't be interoperable video, but at least it would get us interopera= ble slideshows. =C2=A0

    2. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    --20cf3079bfec84429d04ef8ccbec-- From robin@hookflash.com Thu Jan 9 10:35:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A511AE4E4 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 10:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id REeOi-pBrJU6 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 10:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f176.google.com (mail-ie0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E7E1AE4E0 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 10:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id at1so3887931iec.7 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=8jEMS5KhVuWib22XmDMFv1l9vqU/zpjvN4PdR+E8UX0=; b=SuS8UB+TbZZtSb46/6+imnO64rAqMdUE0Lus2hORMyArJ2KkUhf+7uI8J8ObXJnc9d 1aDy0z+i8zFoLoxK0x0d2uBmd193oC0CpOQcrNOm8/5xZiwNkY1axFT6rZcLBA1iCTHi qBz6p3wD/+hrbqR5kaM7DE1MsnLnVrQRkswxzraXkK7vShmUmenNi6MedU+qQHmZqLD8 GUPr5bVCHY9RVprvxhU7xNcP97mIcbv/rk6TAQNgFJbfUCJ/ZJsQx4rF0E74l4+ZVL1l vrPuqEARaB5et7omJEvIXRdgkLFdCsSfO1S+2imVWCpNe3qxW7YirYNfM19UThsfe3Wf 4f2A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk9wD1T9ibAsjJl1vWhtMwNlmp4aM+7I9SUjR+z3Xmq0Ev6WwSrJNCUFvvqqaw2K3IB1CvE X-Received: by 10.42.226.66 with SMTP id iv2mr3746545icb.11.1389292525159; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Robins-MacBook-Pro.local (CPE602ad08742f7-CM602ad08742f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.242.65.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s4sm15688630ige.0.2014.01.09.10.35.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:35:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CEEBEA.3050108@hookflash.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:35:22 -0500 From: Robin Raymond User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.8 (Macintosh/20130427) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030000070904020500000505" Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:35:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030000070904020500000505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Due to IPR. Markets forces will adequately determine where H.264 must be done and there is a strong incentive to add H.264 where-ever possible. We don't need to mandate in use cases where this is not true. Not all implementations can download a pre-compiled binary to "work around" the licensing fee issue at run-time. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While there is concern over IPR, this appears to be free at the moment. I would change my opinion the moment any licensing fees became attached. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Mandating for browser is fine so long as not every instance requires licensing issues. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Market forces will ensure sufficient compatibility since there is an incentive to do both. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Would prefer market forces to mandating legacy 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Market forces / natural incentives to be compatible will ensure compatibility. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #6 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While it's great that a free implementation exists, I worry about its optimization on mobile devices. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively causes many to need to implement H.261 if they can't do H.264 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively causes many to need to implement H.263 even if they don't need it. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Would prefer no MTI / market forces to this 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively cause many to need to implement Theora even if they don't need it 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #9 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: It's not ideal but it's fairly light weight for implementation (albeit high bandwidth relatively speaking). Effectively to me this means "let market forces decide compatibility" with an absolute bare minimal fallback. --------------030000070904020500000505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    1. All entities MUST support H.264
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Due to IPR. Markets forces will adequately determine where H.264 must be done and there is a strong incentive to add H.264 where-ever possible. We don't need to mandate in use cases where this is not true. Not all implementations can download a pre-compiled binary to "work around" the licensing fee issue at run-time.
    2. All entities MUST support VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While there is concern over IPR, this appears to be free at the moment. I would change my opinion the moment any licensing fees became attached.
    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1
    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Mandating for browser is fine so long as not every instance requires licensing issues.
    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Market forces will ensure sufficient compatibility since there is an incentive to do both.
    6. All entities MUST support H.261
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Would prefer market forces to mandating legacy
    7. There is no MTI video codec
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Market forces / natural incentives to be compatible will ensure compatibility.
    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #6
    9. All entities MUST support Theora
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While it's great that a free implementation exists, I worry about its optimization on mobile devices.
    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively causes many to need to implement H.261 if they can't do H.264
    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively causes many to need to implement H.263 even if they don't need it.
    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1
    13. All entities MUST support H.263
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Would prefer no MTI / market forces to this
    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #1, effectively cause many to need to implement Theora even if they don't need it
    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See #9
    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: It's not ideal but it's fairly light weight for implementation (albeit high bandwidth relatively speaking). Effectively to me this means "let market forces decide compatibility" with an absolute bare minimal fallback.
     

    --------------030000070904020500000505-- From singer@apple.com Thu Jan 9 11:38:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3285C1AE454 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:38:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gg3nPRU_zeRx for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5045C1AE3F9 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:38:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay4.apple.com ([17.128.113.87]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZ5006VFFUY7UP0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:37:54 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807157-b7ff46d000001540-cb-52cefa92e3e5 Received: from spicerack.apple.com (spicerack.apple.com [17.128.115.40]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id D5.6C.05440.29AFEC25; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from singda.apple.com (singda.apple.com [17.197.32.11]) by spicerack.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZ500FKUFV6E540@spicerack.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:37:54 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: <52CDC1B4.5000509@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:37:53 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <7CE9BDC5-8E8B-41E4-B8E1-C98ADE1F48C7@apple.com> References: <52CDC1B4.5000509@bbs.darktech.org> To: cowwoc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCsoTvp17kgg9vn5CzW/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxp2jD5kLnvJUXHvdy9LA+JGzi5GTQ0LAROLrvessELaYxIV7 69lAbCGByUwSizdEdDFyAdmrmSSOzmsGSnBwMAvoSdy/qAVSwwtkbpw3mxnEFhYol9j5rYMJ xGYTUJV4MOcYI4jNKWAgse7PanaQVhag+LXbEiBhZgFhie+P77FA2NoST95dYIUYaSOxsfkG C8QJFRL7+7eAnSMioCJx49gtsDESArIS80+XTmAUmIVwzywk98xCMnQBI/MqRoGi1JzEShO9 xIKCnFS95PzcTYzggCsM38H4b5nVIUYBDkYlHt4HreeChFgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwdnwDCvGm JFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREudtOLQlSEggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cDoviM1d652T9Kb TYaHGtrE9/Enr1nBU2v1NaGzj3mi5s/rU9lsqw9e3hzK/lq5c9X+klVHSvQ4zc81/dn09cec LQGPPk75eHr5T1n1BIm8Z4+33JDSNTX5m3tWVp3r7Os3kZ+skxuWKXvnfu3aeUL+2MRTN7wv XBBY8GnzzUemNltWfut68S/aR4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRALang0g0AgAA Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:38:06 -0000 On Jan 8, 2014, at 13:23 , cowwoc wrote: > On 08/01/2014 3:30 PM, Herv=E9 W. wrote: >> On 8 January 2014 20:04, Andrew Allen wrote: >>>=20 >>> 6. All entities MUST support H.261 >>>=20 >>> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No >>>=20 >>> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize >>> them: >>>=20 >>> =B7 H263 would be better if we are going back in time. H.261 = quality >>> is very poor. >>>=20 >>> =B7 H261 is obsolete and took years to remove from use. >> [...] >>=20 >>> 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG >>>=20 >>> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable >>>=20 >>> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize >>> them: >>=20 >> What makes MJPEG more acceptable than H.261 ? >>=20 >=20 > I was just about to post the same question. I fail to see the logic :) >=20 I think I explained before, as well. We all have JPEG implementations = (optimized) as support for JPEG in general is hardly optional. The RTP = format is easy. Bit-rate is linear with frame rate (unlike predictive = codecs, where as the frames get further apart the prediction finds life = harder). JPEG can do decent quality at low frame rates, or low pictures = sizes, or... H.261 isn=92t implemented, and I think few will even if mandated. Even = when given a lot of bits I seem to recall it wasn=92t great. It has = size and other odd limitations. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From maikmerten@googlemail.com Thu Jan 9 12:39:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9371AE12A for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:39:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0g03pz2SDdB for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x233.google.com (mail-bk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B731AE009 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 6so1277878bkj.24 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:39:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=OeU6EIffrUW3Dxt9UV80L/qSr51Tb+qRCKs+HuSW/Is=; b=bEZZFyLCQihL4sQH9rtxyDeY3YZRxeFDUaKnKWeddHELHoQLxsn7Vcrg6HVJuZVVvB FO4HH7XfENzaisv97jV7ETl6iWDYism+3YcxyGrGFHsRfNHCJAcUzDv0KC9vd8eJhbu5 Q5zacIHZjnl154hfsHz9LaINbN5Th0OgdJbYfySWVKYl5FPs6SOcTTPuVkvawR7XPrPR Ns1dve+otKoI2E2kFshbPa8+dENp7OfTHrW/nOJ9819ZC14eFd8lsU2X6OV1sJupiuww YuBVXhJTNuW+iLg6DGYEAFOYFPVHFLLZl3zJR70R4gdL+a/9BfM8RA59Zgr3cywrbswh bBWA== X-Received: by 10.205.45.65 with SMTP id uj1mr1640377bkb.16.1389299955512; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (v2201202116457532.yourvserver.net. [46.38.243.75]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bk1sm5504851bkc.3.2014.01.09.12.39.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:39:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52CF0948.6080305@googlemail.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:40:40 +0100 From: Maik Merten User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52CDC1B4.5000509@bbs.darktech.org> <7CE9BDC5-8E8B-41E4-B8E1-C98ADE1F48C7@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <7CE9BDC5-8E8B-41E4-B8E1-C98ADE1F48C7@apple.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090107030700000806080904" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Gaelle Martin-Cocher's and Andrew Allen's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:39:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090107030700000806080904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am 09.01.2014 20:37, schrieb David Singer: > H.261 isn’t implemented, and I think few will even if mandated. Even when given a lot of bits I seem to recall it wasn’t great. It has size and other odd limitations. Just for the sake of completeness: Provided one can live with the resolution limitations, H.261 should and probably will always deliver better results than MJPEG for a given bitrate. So if one recalls H.261 not being great even with "lots of bits", MJPEG will most likely be (much) worse. The ultimate image quality limit for H.261 is the smallest available quantizer, which allows for virtually artifact-free visual reproduction. Enclosed is screenshot of the p64 H.261 encoder using the smallest available quantizer on frame 42 of the sign_irene_cif sequence. This is merely to show that H.261 is not by design locked to a picture quality of "always bad" (you did not claim that, but one could misread). In practice I fully expect H.261 to deliver workable quality in scenarios where MJPEG just cannot deliver video content. This of course doesn't mean that MJPEG already being "everywhere" is not a very nice aspect or that the H.261 resolution restrictions are not unfortunate. 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T28AD3rrPehi for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EA51A1F58 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id g10so3787520pdj.17 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:31:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=uPDcD9xjbJBfrgvAdHpibxgcN8EzhFhSp3etukSXr1o=; b=awbLZY3NXGK2eNbom2LBG6Y52cThDvDoBGP9geyM1/qZhY8abYKXJGI3a7Wg32RAWT lfPijJTF4huV7AIzIZQIvEONxUkVmzHMXhVBZD6JIIQZcI2Pj8zoEak35PrGrFNlirhW TDYkAfhKY4YuBTMeA3AWTD5Yi6fdEaeWMmjjjFNgPt3N7fNh75qHpyew7tNhhu8ynA7S SKHKY/orxdZGCaA4W/6fwxoD52vtQX/Z9Myk+Zlyz74g5SewYwBRaPSVrL1Oa8iQ/YhS IVJLeRYAV2Qj2mi2R3gKDVqpp6EbtKZ50E2F2LIkTbTSDxZ8Vtpc09S24YN+TXlXa0U+ ENTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=uPDcD9xjbJBfrgvAdHpibxgcN8EzhFhSp3etukSXr1o=; b=DXc/rC0d86wCCvkgJuIxxGdIKwpHoLiENupZcsdsVTMxIUHQqAsmAJveyO/zDEzsDF sJkF6T61pWE0q59r1RPYzJ4V9J/Uc+mIFUlS+wxCdbYN3wZJ0BV9ozlcqY5BMWg6KXVr 0RxtJwfg7MZsj6FSZF4yphWUd2eUqlyoW5EkX1us8gBBgxUTjaiLZxryS1/x+nAj+Rdi 90T1uMdw0+az12fRf5fPgsdBNc8lpNCwjLwW2wOWQKfjw7BBb8wqHCBetU7a9pPwIg3n xb+okmqd/zajoGlgWbHDewTUYwiqmPdcSTVj3ULnbFHd0b2LyJwJe0J3NsQIgPS3maGv +YkA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkMaPKnExITQGaK9NH0sRo10mDfIfenQd6YU9G8MNksWnaR8oqb7HOIfLvb/r2txUjmEifag+JVVBmnhOIfG/C/yaxr/rlCTaYsitRbHZiGvNj3JFDixipC+uVteAkvIjXbN4TYNfoFp9LggJwrSjyR2/Biauzy6H4fPaA1LXdQeMLoD9FgXXg1+dGeOXdnNfupUCcU X-Received: by 10.68.244.168 with SMTP id xh8mr6881824pbc.3.1389310312927; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:31:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.163.234 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:31:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:31:12 -0800 Message-ID: To: "" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:32:04 -0000 I'm using the 0.0-1.0 scale for "ACCEPTABLE" that some other people have used. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 NO Too many IPR issues which would cause an "Mandatory to Implement" codec to be a "Mandatory to License" codec, which would lock out too many smaller players from the WebRTC community. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 YES High quality with low IPR issues makes it a good MTI codec. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 NO Same as #1. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 NO Treating browsers special doesn't relieve the IPR issues enough. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 ACCEPTABLE (0.1) It doesn't really achieve anything, but there's not much to disagree with. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 ACCEPTABLE (0.2) The quality is low, but perhaps better than no MTI, and acceptable for some use cases. 7. There is no MTI video codec ACCEPTABLE (0.5) If this means "we should never have an MTI", I'd say "NO". If this means "we admit we can't decide one right now in this forum, and we'll either wait or try another forum", I'd find that acceptable. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 ACCEPTABLE (0.2) The same as #5 and #6. 9. All entities MUST support Theora ACCEPTABLE (0.4) Lower quality than VP8, but not any better with IPR issues (as far as I know), so I don't see the point. But I could still live with it. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} ACCEPTABLE (0.2) Sort of the same as #5 and #6. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO Too many IPR issues. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 NO If it were clear that there were no IPR issues with decoding H.264, then I would say this is "YES", but since it's not clear, I have to go with "NO". 13. All entities MUST support H.263 NO Too many IPR issues. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} ACCEPTABLE (0.8) This is almost the same as #2. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. NO It doesn't accomplish anything, but leaves baggage in the standard. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG ACCEPTABLE (0.2) This isn't very useful for most use cases, but may be acceptable for some (low-framerate screencast, or use on fast LANs) From bossiel@yahoo.fr Thu Jan 9 16:02:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A081AD939 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4egDVSsfRPU for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nm31-vm9.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (nm31-vm9.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [212.82.97.96]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE8E1AD8F2 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.82.98.126] by nm31.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jan 2014 00:02:18 -0000 Received: from [46.228.39.98] by tm19.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jan 2014 00:02:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp135.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jan 2014 00:02:17 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.fr; s=s1024; t=1389312137; bh=j7IZU2jg7qx21Jw5zlnWdwD7VMDD99I5pe9wNsf9mZ4=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:References:Mime-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Cc:X-Mailer:From:Subject:Date:To; b=h//CG/XtxG/lVb9Yit3gsbkTlI6HAtRFW9HVJ74WIVak+9Bf62chNpyqqh0jlZWe9iIdjCcgmwN8hBukcH1wI9gPlKYTp1pX2odsXPAYr2ZQjpjlX42OhXjGVyqEclJzIyVPUFs2zePb4i4bGAyTOIyOSJV1LBosc8tomVczZII= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 979779.96856.bm@smtp135.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: OtcIa4UVM1ksKVu6tDWwhadNUPfr5NgDfopP.GXTRqwT0lo U0AMUfJ.drN2WQ7lUQ9JfLVCxQcraoIrGgesD.hoL6CcvwcVOTamHN._HkM5 Rl7VEmlsBfa6bSZrLgrU4KnOMWu4LMPPzc4XEOzy25ZwHTgFOj9gc3T59EkL tF0d7mNUEPFCZ7A4DA7PMM_.yXlKvMZTm28XohkEF9W.EAh84_kIKqew58XN 5tXMSWrG3Lgl3ZqlWk02N28JFX4doqWmZLCnIo1VcZBNHjdNVnaSCME2Gwh2 a4c0pDrSl5sVEgAqYz1w2flKpmO3U5sxqXOIiIW8au04Ad_8bH5u5uOH80Na QKOqeE5pmkeoEcEaIDa2brl2jh377._mIvYkwkXl94iL45JLTaWL8iWQ46rp TOXFTEiCtEzO1hEGhP68RTcSLNQEI8Qtj9bcavp9rpthLEUlRk8_1Y2hTr7u 0mIw16tFmDjawofYWBS.cRT0JbDkJMKQJB1oh2jvgMTyT0HfL6whdfY.ByT9 y5yOAMrGwJ71xFMuczH9ZQ2A- X-Yahoo-SMTP: Dix.ZgGswBADJg.if3NVG_xX0Xc- X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.0.26] (bossiel@88.179.39.5 with xymcookie [46.228.39.225]) by smtp135.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2014 00:02:17 +0000 UTC References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E44303D-9B7A-43AF-AEF2-E39978BCB029@yahoo.fr> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B350) From: Bossiel Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:02:16 +0100 To: bossiel@yahoo.fr Cc: "rtcweb-owner@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:02:30 -0000 > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support a= t least one of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Yes > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 7. There is no MTI video codec > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Acceptable=20 > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=20 > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Acceptable > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: >=20 > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > No > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize th= em: From bo.burman@ericsson.com Thu Jan 9 16:23:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884851AD34C for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KiDrNt87A6N3 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63371ACCEC for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:23:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7f228e000003e6c-aa-52cf3d66ff12 Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw7.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 67.75.15980.66D3FC25; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:23:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.37]) by ESESSHC004.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.30]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:23:01 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOT5NGlgE/askO/+wQU0SKbjJp8p54w Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:23:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6a7fkgg73XhCzW/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxs1n5gULtSoazs5gamDsU+pi5OSQEDCR2N0+gx3CFpO4cG89 WxcjF4eQwCFGiSMXZjJDOIsZJfZsW8UMUsUmoCExf8ddRhBbREBd4vLDC2DdwgI2EpuWnmCB iNtKvNi9Dco2kvjQfRKsnkVAVeLVkx1gcV4BX4lfv7qZQGwhgQCJb9uWAcU5ODgFAiUWr4oC CTMKyErc/34PrJxZQFzi1pP5TBCHCkgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B8rhK0ksfbwdqh6HYkFuz+xQdja EssWvmaGWCsocXLmE5YJjKKzkIydhaRlFpKWWUhaFjCyrGJkz03MzEkvN9/ECAz6g1t+G+xg 3HRf7BCjNAeLkjjvh7fOQUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmpxYcYmTg4pRoYD8T8OFN8+ZFXfVIA 26bbIanFqvOXNb1kvRTBU9uiP/HT3nvvTq9ZfSIwTUrSc6pW2/K9b93sSk8fM5rTHtzrHc54 zmbftdLkya9XZngbTAn8IMI4Q2//s+0sJfWzTqzo2/f39/+zF8r+XH4p9+ClWrbf23afG1Ef 53rVWzZZMv95/Txiq/bERUosxRmJhlrMRcWJAM7YROpIAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:23:15 -0000 Here's my input: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: VP8 does not provide any technical advantage over H.264, is not developed o= r maintained through any recognized standardization process, and is current= ly formally not possible to license. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: VP8 does not provide any technical advantage over H.264, is not developed o= r maintained through any recognized standardization process, and is current= ly formally not possible to license. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: It seems less than obvious how to define exactly what is a "browser" in thi= s context. VP8 does not provide any technical advantage over H.264, is not developed o= r maintained through any recognized standardization process, and is current= ly formally not possible to license. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not provide interoperability between all WebRTC implementations. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261 cannot support sufficient quality or bandwidth efficiency and is not = widely supported. 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Acceptable as outcome if no other MTI consensus can be found. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The fallback H.261 cannot support sufficient quality or bandwidth efficienc= y and is not widely supported. 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Theora has unclear performance and licensing and is not widely supported. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261 cannot support sufficient quality or bandwidth efficiency and is not = widely supported. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Expect that option 13 will effectively be the same and that option is prefe= rable since it is more lightweight. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Don't really see the benefit compared to option 3. VP8 does not provide any technical advantage over H.264, is not developed o= r maintained through any recognized standardization process, and is current= ly formally not possible to license. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Sufficient quality and bandwidth efficiency for some use cases and thus bet= ter fallback option than MJPEG, H.261 or Theora. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: VP8 does not provide any technical advantage over H.264, is not developed o= r maintained through any recognized standardization process, and is current= ly formally not possible to license. Theora has unclear performance and licensing and is not widely supported. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Don't see any practical point with just specifying decoding in a communicat= ion scenario. Theora has unclear performance and licensing and is not widely supported. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: MJPEG does not provide sufficient bandwidth efficiency for most use cases. From jdrosen@jdrosen.net Thu Jan 9 18:54:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57911ADFB3 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:54:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GXqwpIfwrQbz for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecbiz71.inmotionhosting.com (ecbiz71.inmotionhosting.com [70.39.232.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83FA1ADFA1 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f41.google.com ([209.85.220.41]:43443) by ecbiz71.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W1SEe-0001VG-8U for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:54:17 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id fb1so2570679pad.28 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:54:11 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bMZIy0NJJyeC6uUd+hY5WJfhFW79k+twTPROBe89dTo=; b=GvrUFUNAozQcKqlxFdza2i/4dOFTWrork2PpDAyVd85e1Q10BTUZVbCCJ5yJwL7wzo VkgBWmgx6StVkDjtanUk4lvWTuHCXxmb2Ys5Oq3FqXttG1haep/UE145BjBgZHy4r8Yn G54I0gHJfiA294+ZjQDnHFJuXaP1Hgrj6sB3ZYfvCM/xNNeVMalJ5qs42RcRlpoAyOZU CNckUsQXZOKs6DLZGdFlOX3hA+CoW8Y+SK/wcDqEwJ+tzJgTQtcutVmDs8MawxLeKN5o 1BwENd3mJTesM50NzXMQ3XRnQb9e7/A30+T/u8lRyYRxzZZjDrfQXSn1SZD3ep9jlrq0 8xjQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.69.18.234 with SMTP id gp10mr7728286pbd.105.1389322451870; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.14.97 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:54:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:54:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11364fac38f2ec04ef94d73e X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ecbiz71.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jdrosen.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ecbiz71.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: jdrosen+jdrosen.net/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:54:34 -0000 --001a11364fac38f2ec04ef94d73e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My views: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Unlicensable IPR claims; high risk of trolls coming out of the wordworks; lack of interoperability with install base of H.264 based systems; lack of current broad support for hardware acceleration* 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:* I put this down as acceptable, as opposed to NO, because I believe that primary problem here is what the browsers implement. As = I am not a browser vendor, it would be OK by me if they all decide to implement both - since it means H.264 is there, ensuring interoperability. In o= ther words, I dont think rtcweb *compliance* is meaningful outside of the browser - only interoperability with webRTC. Thus I view #3 and #4 as effectively identical.* 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not result in interoperability.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Quality nowhere near acceptable for commercial application.* 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not result in interoperability. * 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8: *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Will frequently result in H.261 ({Chrome to any other browser},{Chrome to install bas= e}) and this is not acceptable from a quality perspective. * 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora: *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not produce interoperability with install base. * 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Will result in H.261 in too many cases and this will not provid= e sufficient quality. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will result in H.263 in too many cases and this will not provide sufficient quality. * 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *From a patent perspective is equivalent to implementing both. = * 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Quality not sufficient for commercial use.* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not produce interoperability with install base.* 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Quality not sufficient for commercial use.* On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps = in > Video Codec Selection Process=94 ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinio= n > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed t= o > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that yo= u: > Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really = don=92t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with t= his > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if s= o > please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it = with > a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of th= e > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objectio= n, > leave that question blank. > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the W= G > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this thread= ! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to sen= d > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 201= 1 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T re= c > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --=20 Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --001a11364fac38f2ec04ef94d73e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My views:

    1. All en= tities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0YES.

      2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Unli= censable IPR claims; high risk of trolls coming out of the wordworks; lack = of interoperability with install base of H.264 based systems; lack of curre= nt broad support for hardware acceleration

  • All en= tities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable.<= /p>

    2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0I pu= t this down as acceptable, as opposed to NO, because I believe that primary= problem here is what the browsers implement. As I am not a browser vendor,= it would be OK by me if they all decide to implement both - since it means= H.264 is there, ensuring interoperability. In other words, I dont think rt= cweb *compliance* is meaningful outside of the browser - only interoperabil= ity with webRTC. Thus I view #3 and #4 as effectively identical.=

  • Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable.<= /p>

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All en= tities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not result in interoperability.

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity nowhere near acceptable for commercial application.

  • There = is no MTI video codec

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not result in interoperability.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Will frequently result = in H.261 ({Chrome to any other browser},{Chrome to install base}) and this = is not acceptable from a quality perspective.=A0

    2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support Theora:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not produce interoperability with install base.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Will resu= lt in H.261 in too many cases and this will not provide sufficient quality.= =A0

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=A0NO.=A0

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= result in H.263 in too many cases and this will not provide sufficient qua= lity.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0From= a patent perspective is equivalent to implementing both.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.263

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity not sufficient for commercial use.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}:=A0NO.

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not produce interoperability with install base.

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.=A0NO.=A0

    • <= div class=3D"im">

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=

  • All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity not sufficient for commercial use.



    On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail= .com> wrote:

    Dear WG,


    This is the email announcing the straw poll a= cross the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t rea= d the =93Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/m= sg10448.html )then please do that = before you continue to read.


    The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG ch= airs will use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternati= ve to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that = has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide= your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll= will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.


    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alte= rnative that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions ar= e listed.


    The first question is =93Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indica= te that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = =3D I really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = =3D I can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. = =A0


    The second question is =93Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objecti= on at a minimum indicate it with a =93Yes=94. =A0=A0Please also add a short= (1-sentence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =A0(If= you wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate threa= d). =A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.


    Please provide input on as many of the altern= atives as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more we= ll informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to = be brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave b= lank, will simply be considered as one without any input from you. =A0


    WG participants, please do not comment on any= one=92s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are m= aking life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw= poll. =A0


    If discussion causes you to update your posit= ion, please feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread = prior to the closing date.



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




    --
    --001a11364fac38f2ec04ef94d73e-- From suhasietf@gmail.com Thu Jan 9 21:22:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9A01AE0AA for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:22:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EuZ5dES270Xb for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E37C1AE0A9 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id hn9so7860108wib.12 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:21:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=DcwdBwW2jC8VpuvjmhO08hLuknVjptBiRwxPs4dIB14=; b=IXbszOqz9SFif2+3cmDSm1wcFFsDWGg4nGrNc7Rt1+PMC+vgo7b8jZAqfgIZ7xy/rE n0sfJJNHpLeyyRkO6u1wWcCsoIcPjEmYlV9SoRHNEFZYD9HYZjpLT3HbuCMSC4FZcbV5 f1dWn6RCmJXwDSUHnboM3XdRJ4j+ig93epuiFFigw27otq5KxtAL4KU6T8SysFOevueQ RzzOF5TiUH24Vl6jyaYZztBEAxBXKGklT3SSv2czzODry9LxHyMNDUPCOy2whOiBOG7C uRS7OuQ1gcCBlmN0tDBtzq/KRdwp1zjcw0tsVHgPilLgSrzyNMxH2BBoLZBwPX2lVfUQ G2eg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.21.166 with SMTP id w6mr661411wie.31.1389331304950; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.109.163 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:21:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:21:44 -0800 Message-ID: From: Suhas Nandakumar To: Jonathan Rosenberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d9a86e82e9d04ef96e668 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 05:22:08 -0000 --047d7b6d9a86e82e9d04ef96e668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chairs, Please find my inputs on the options. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES.* 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Lack of broad support with the existing install base.* 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Results in interoperable solutions with existing install base as well as future H264 and VP8 install bases.* 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Results in non inter-operable solutions or more sadly silo'ed communications.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *WebRTC MUST attempt to deliver high quality Video experiences.= * 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not result in interoperability. * 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8: 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: * NO* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Ends up in non-interoperability or poor video quality because of H.261*. 9. All entities MUST support Theora: *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not result in inter-operable solution. Very low install base.* 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: "*Atleast" ends up causing inter-operable complications and that is bad for WebRTC. H261 becomes Lowest Common Denominator and ki= lls high quality video experience for the end-users. It would be worse, i= f end-users turn of video altogether rather than experiencing poor vide= o quality * 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: * "Atleast" ends up causing inter-operable complications. More-over H.263 will not live up to the high quality video experience= , if selected as the common codec. * 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor video quality, not good for WebRTC.* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Will not produce interoperability with the install base.* 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. *NO.* 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor interoperability with the existing install base. * 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Quality not sufficient for commercial use.* On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wro= te: > My views: > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Unlicensable IPR claims; high risk of trolls coming out of > the wordworks; lack of interoperability with install base of H.264 = based > systems; lack of current broad support for hardware acceleration* > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them:* I put this down as acceptable, as opposed to NO, because I > believe that primary problem here is what the browsers implement. A= s I am > not a browser vendor, it would be OK by me if they all decide to im= plement > both - since it means H.264 is there, ensuring interoperability. In= other > words, I dont think rtcweb *compliance* is meaningful outside of th= e > browser - only interoperability with webRTC. Thus I view #3 and #4 = as > effectively identical.* > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Will not result in interoperability.* > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Quality nowhere near acceptable for commercial application.* > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Will not result in interoperability. * > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8: *NO.* > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Will > frequently result in H.261 ({Chrome to any other browser},{Chrome t= o > install base}) and this is not acceptable from a quality perspectiv= e. * > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora: *NO.* > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Will not produce interoperability with install base. * > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: Will result in H.261 in too many cases and this will not prov= ide > sufficient quality. > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} *NO.* > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Will result in H.263 in too many cases and this will not > provide sufficient quality. * > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *From a patent perspective is equivalent to implementing > both. * > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Quality not sufficient for commercial use.* > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: *NO.= * > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Will not produce interoperability with install base.* > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. *NO.* > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO.* > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: *Quality not sufficient for commercial use.* > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > >> Dear WG, >> >> This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec >> alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps= in >> Video Codec Selection Process=94 ( >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then >> please do that before you continue to read. >> >> The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the >> alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have= , >> if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the >> information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a >> single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opini= on >> on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll >> input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will ru= n >> until the end of the 12th of January 2014. >> >> As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed >> to the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. >> >> The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option >> [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that y= ou: >> Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really= don=92t >> favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with = this >> option but I prefer something else to be picked. >> >> The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if = so >> please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it= with >> a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of t= he >> objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer >> explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objecti= on, >> leave that question blank. >> >> Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel >> comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the = WG >> chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for >> consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be >> considered as one without any input from you. >> >> WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this threa= d! >> If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the >> subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the >> chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. >> >> If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to >> send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing d= ate. >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> All entities MUST support H.264 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 2. >> >> All entities MUST support VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 3. >> >> All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 4. >> >> Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support >> at least one of H.264 and VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 5. >> >> All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 6. >> >> All entities MUST support H.261 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 7. >> >> There is no MTI video codec >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 8. >> >> All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at >> least one of H.264 and VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 9. >> >> All entities MUST support Theora >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 10. >> >> All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 11. >> >> All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 12. >> >> All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST >> support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 13. >> >> All entities MUST support H.263 >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 14. >> >> All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 15. >> >> All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> 16. >> >> All entities MUST support Motion JPEG >> 1. >> >> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 2. >> >> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >> them: >> >> >> >> H.264 is a reference to the proposal in >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ >> >> VP8 is a reference to the proposal in >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ >> >> Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, >> 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) >> >> H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T >> rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) >> >> H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 >> >> Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> The Chairs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > > > -- > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7b6d9a86e82e9d04ef96e668 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello Chairs,

    Pl= ease find my inputs on the options.

    <= ol style=3D"margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">

  • = All en= tities MUST support H.264

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0YES.

  • = All en= tities MUST support VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Lack o= f broad support with the existing install base.

  • = All en= tities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Result= s in interoperable solutions with existing install base as well as future H= 264 and VP8 install bases.

  • = Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

  • = All en= tities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Result= s in non inter-operable solutions or more sadly silo'ed communications.=

  • = All en= tities MUST support H.261

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0WebR= TC MUST attempt to deliver high quality Video experiences.

  • = There = is no MTI video codec

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not result in interoperability.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8:=A0

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =A0NO

      2. =

    2. Do you have any objections to= this option, if so please summarize them: =A0Ends up in non-i= nteroperability or poor video=A0quality= =A0because of H.261.

  • All en= tities MUST support Theora:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

  • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Will n= ot result in inter-operable solution. Very low install base.

  • = All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: "= Atleast" ends up causing inter-operable complications and that is bad = for WebRTC. H261 becomes Lowest Common Denominator and kills high quality v= ideo experience for the end-users. It would be worse, if end-users turn of = video altogether rather than experiencing poor video quality=A0<= /p>

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=A0NO.=A0

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=A0&= quot;Atleast" ends up causing inter-operable complications. More-over= =A0H.263 will not live up to the high quality video experience, if selected= as the common codec.=A0

  • = All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support H.263

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor v= ideo quality, not good for WebRTC.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Will n= ot produce interoperability with the install base.

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.=A0NO.=A0

    • <= div class=3D"im" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =A0Poo= r interoperability with the existing install base.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity not sufficient for commercial use.



    On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdros= en@jdrosen.net> wrote:
    My views:

    1. All en= tities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0YES.

      2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Unli= censable IPR claims; high risk of trolls coming out of the wordworks; lack = of interoperability with install base of H.264 based systems; lack of curre= nt broad support for hardware acceleration

  • All en= tities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable.<= /p>

    2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0I pu= t this down as acceptable, as opposed to NO, because I believe that primary= problem here is what the browsers implement. As I am not a browser vendor,= it would be OK by me if they all decide to implement both - since it means= H.264 is there, ensuring interoperability. In other words, I dont think rt= cweb *compliance* is meaningful outside of the browser - only interoperabil= ity with webRTC. Thus I view #3 and #4 as effectively identical.=

  • Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable.<= /p>

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All en= tities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not result in interoperability.

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity nowhere near acceptable for commercial application.

  • There = is no MTI video codec

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not result in interoperability.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Will frequently result = in H.261 ({Chrome to any other browser},{Chrome to install base}) and this = is not acceptable from a quality perspective.=A0

    2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support Theora:=A0NO.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not produce interoperability with install base.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Will resu= lt in H.261 in too many cases and this will not provide sufficient quality.= =A0

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=A0NO.=A0

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= result in H.263 in too many cases and this will not provide sufficient qua= lity.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0From= a patent perspective is equivalent to implementing both.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.263

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity not sufficient for commercial use.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}:=A0NO.

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

      2. <= li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:15px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style= -type:lower-alpha;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;font-family:A= rial">

      = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Will= not produce interoperability with install base.

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.=A0NO.=A0

    • <= div class=3D"im">

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=

  • All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0NO.

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Qual= ity not sufficient for commercial use.



    On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ted H= ardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    Dear WG,


    This is the email announcing the straw poll a= cross the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t rea= d the =93Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/m= sg10448.html )then please do that = before you continue to read.


    The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG ch= airs will use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternati= ve to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that = has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide= your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll= will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.


    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alte= rnative that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions ar= e listed.


    The first question is =93Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indica= te that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = =3D I really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = =3D I can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. = =A0


    The second question is =93Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objecti= on at a minimum indicate it with a =93Yes=94. =A0=A0Please also add a short= (1-sentence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =A0(If= you wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate threa= d). =A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.


    Please provide input on as many of the altern= atives as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more we= ll informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to = be brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave b= lank, will simply be considered as one without any input from you. =A0


    WG participants, please do not comment on any= one=92s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are m= aking life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw= poll. =A0


    If discussion causes you to update your posit= ion, please feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread = prior to the closing date.



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _________________________________________= ______
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




    --

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --047d7b6d9a86e82e9d04ef96e668-- From espeberg@cisco.com Fri Jan 10 00:41:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F221ADF71 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:41:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nz9-Y4eeKYTJ for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C70E1AD738 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:41:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=49725; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389343288; x=1390552888; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=wxO0BZW/gAJhaGoC5RNvrJv8121k8s8fMr4wLDYs6A8=; b=HkTmdVDiLQ1thlosWvG8Ga0BTe9LtlUFBdS59YGFzVsFxzOoGsCbFfHT 1kcul2aWPLxpaQzqb6CPZsmucpx0SRyaTIAGy6NC+g2WRhdrWNBzvsr2m D+3KDD2tZUTp2ME8sBLoUMXJBoFEYlXLV9cun8z9/8REMlEV50Ldb19Mr c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjQFAOqxz1KtJXG//2dsb2JhbABZgkdEOFa5QIEHFnSCJgEBBC1cAgEIIhYBDTIlAgQBGod8wzcXji0nOIMkgRMEqiyDLYFoQg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,637,1384300800"; d="scan'208,217";a="296409720" Received: from rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com ([173.37.113.191]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2014 08:41:26 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0A8fQGQ007840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:41:26 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([169.254.1.68]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:41:26 -0600 From: "Espen Berger (espeberg)" To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOS9aAPcEcn3E63a2nrvBjcW5p90rMQ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:41:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nb-NO, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.207.242] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8F5F2C7B2623641BD9ABF0B622D726D2B513475xmbrcdx11ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:41:41 -0000 --_000_E8F5F2C7B2623641BD9ABF0B622D726D2B513475xmbrcdx11ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: - VP8 has no interop with existing products in 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: - Its old and has limited compression compared to H264 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: - This choice does not move us forward to having interoperable aud= io and video between vendords 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Regards -Espen --_000_E8F5F2C7B2623641BD9ABF0B622D726D2B513475xmbrcdx11ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

     

    1.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.264

    a.   = ; Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    YES

    b.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    -  &n= bsp;       VP8 has no intero= p with existing products in

    3.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port both H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Acceptable

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4.   = ; Browsers MUST support= both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Acceptable

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port at least one of H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    -  &n= bsp;       Its old and has l= imited compression compared to H264

    7.   = ; There is no MTI video= codec

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    -  &n= bsp;       This choice does = not move us forward to having interoperable audio and video between vendord= s

    8.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port Theora

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at = least one of H.264 or VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13.  All entities MUST sup= port H.263

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using Theora.

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16.  All entities MUST sup= port Motion JPEG

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    Regards

     <= /p>

    -Espen

     <= /p>

    --_000_E8F5F2C7B2623641BD9ABF0B622D726D2B513475xmbrcdx11ciscoc_-- From palmarti@cisco.com Fri Jan 10 00:57:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39401AC8F5 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:57:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IN1noYtpBbK0 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08601A1F5B for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:57:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3606; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389344267; x=1390553867; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=PzmWfyvAZZaoO2giX0Gg5Cx4izgV1EKjWbtk31eBZow=; b=gCWidALrjJ2UERzX4OEmX9swmlqc96P61EQbrdP6i1hknRLQHzQDaDKi m1Aa3qcFrQUlaGX8SuUrYAQZOGggvvxHWVGgYwG+M9qGdZhTFZ4cIIGrB ygoFLDtoqTo6tZMpZx49XigGoy3ah0OzuwUocZSG+sKqmivRabNy6A3Sj E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhwFAHC1z1KtJXG9/2dsb2JhbABZgwuBDrlAgQcWdIImAQEEeRACAQhGMiUCBA6ICcM4F45SMweDJIETBJgXkhWDLYIq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,637,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="293453465" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2014 08:57:46 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0A8vkqg022599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:57:46 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.165]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:57:46 -0600 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOVlJJBblGvqUOYWnaMUguyu5p+Og0AgAAEj4A= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:57:46 +0000 Message-ID: <2DA16AA9-5CE3-4243-93E2-F48F4F673037@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.193.155] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <3260ACFB260FEA47BE5773021FDB620F@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:57:58 -0000 My response to the Straw poll. =95 All entities MUST support H.264 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: =95 All entities MUST support VP8 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 Will cause lack of interop with existing products =95 All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Ensures interop wih =93legacy=94 products =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: =95 All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: No interop =95 All entities MUST support H.261 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Quality concerns =95 There is no MTI video codec =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: No interop=20 =95 All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least= one of H.264 and VP8: NO. =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=20 =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: =95 All entities MUST support Theora: NO. =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: No interop with =93legacy=94 products =20 =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO.=20 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 =95 All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: =20 =95 All entities MUST support H.263 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: NO. =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 =95 All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. NO.=20 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 =95 All entities MUST support Motion JPEG =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m:=20 .-. P=E5l-Erik From arnaud1.morin@orange.com Fri Jan 10 01:37:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4291ACCEC for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:37:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ws0nNPXV4FVY for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (p-mail1.rd.orange.com [195.101.245.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C781A1F72 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 01:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EEDCA7E4002; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:37:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.192.128.47]) by p-mail1.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BA17D4001; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:37:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from ftrdmel10.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.192.128.44]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:37:04 +0100 Received: from [10.193.116.29] ([10.193.116.29]) by ftrdmel10.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:37:03 +0100 Message-ID: <52CFBF3F.3030708@orange.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:37:03 +0100 From: Arnaud Morin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <2DA16AA9-5CE3-4243-93E2-F48F4F673037@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2DA16AA9-5CE3-4243-93E2-F48F4F673037@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070703040000040307060502" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2014 09:37:03.0991 (UTC) FILETIME=[852C4070:01CF0DE7] Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:37:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070703040000040307060502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1.All entities MUST support H.264 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2.All entities MUST support VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Interco with legacy network needs transcoding, it's not acceptable for my company * 3.All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2# * 4.Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 5.All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 6.All entities MUST support H.261 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Low quality or too high bandwidth * 7.There is no MTI video codec a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* ** 8.All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 9.All entities MUST support Theora a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 10.All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#*** 11.All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 12.All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 13.All entities MUST support H.263 a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 14.All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 15.All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* 16.All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a.Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b.Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *same as 2#* Basically in my company, we have many projects that allow users to communicate with, and as we're using h264, we would like not to transcode. Cheers, Arnaud On 10/01/2014 09:57, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > My response to the Straw poll. > > • All entities MUST support H.264 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support VP8 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > Will cause lack of interop with existing products > • All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Ensures interop wih “legacy” products > • Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop > • All entities MUST support H.261 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Quality concerns > • There is no MTI video codec > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop > • All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8: NO. > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support Theora: NO. > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop with “legacy” products > • All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO. > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support H.263 > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: NO. > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. NO. > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > • All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > • Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > • Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > .-. > Pål-Erik > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------070703040000040307060502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    1.     All entities MUST support H.264

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    2.     All entities MUST support VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Interco with legacy network needs transcoding, it's not acceptable for my company

     

    3.     All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    4.     Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    5.     All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    6.     All entities MUST support H.261

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Low quality or too high bandwidth

     

    7.     There is no MTI video codec

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    8.     All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    9.     All entities MUST support Theora

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    10.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    11.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    12.  All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    13.  All entities MUST support H.263

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    14.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    15.  All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#

     

    16.  All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    a.     Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.      Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as 2#



    Basically in my company, we have many projects that allow users to communicate with, and as we're using h264, we would like not to transcode.

    Cheers,
    Arnaud

    On 10/01/2014 09:57, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote:
    My response to the Straw poll.

	• All entities MUST support H.264
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
	• All entities MUST support VP8
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	Will cause lack of interop with existing products
	• All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Ensures interop wih “legacy” products
	• Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
	• All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop
	• All entities MUST support H.261
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Quality concerns
	• There is no MTI video codec
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop 
	• All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8: NO.
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
	• All entities MUST support Theora: NO.
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No interop with “legacy” products  
	• All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	• All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO. 
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	• All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:  
	• All entities MUST support H.263
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	• All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}: NO.
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	• All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. NO. 
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
	• All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
		• Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
		• Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 

.-.
Pål-Erik

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --------------070703040000040307060502-- From silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 02:03:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BDA1AD9B7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:03:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXQquw6Y5Le8 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x229.google.com (mail-oa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6914B1ACC82 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id i4so3777589oah.28 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:03:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=A+TvwisRB4uANaDyNCNF2VDGUFDJQQkYhdjpGdYAE5s=; b=MO7BIfVC5HUF+Xssy3lV2VPoPhMh5A04MWKkaW5OnbAoEOVmU+foqxsBEcl4pLEUbL bw/fU9EGInXqe8BCgcIFfCdyxXGRvylILQ46RM/IHUIf+I4Cx+YUjFN/5/KwKpeNOssH gM8eAoyxd+ReTf3t2Aix26W2wB2dJ+nv59NW3whzzFZnRAN/3pcksKCOOhoNkR7av6yv Xf4ZxVHAQKrpxzvUe5evDkHg5xWDqemADwd9l+MVzIhqljLkIVKeH6zUQCjWrVzMI4mb 3OL0TZwZTt6Izzd1lkaYQ0Bmg+v3yMslLrVJqw9h6WgejHIJ1HgPvwVR3vK3vXrU03it B9UQ== X-Received: by 10.182.88.4 with SMTP id bc4mr291964obb.68.1389348184410; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:03:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:02:44 -0800 (PST) From: Silvia Pfeiffer Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:44 +1100 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:15 -0000 Recently there have been a whole bunch of replies that only accepted option 1 with the singluar rationale that it's the only option to provide interop with legacy networks. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: interoperability with legacy networks [all others are NO] All these people do not want a new technology, but only want more of what they already have. Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. Best Regards, Silvia. From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Jan 10 02:21:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B372D1ADF9D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VcgtS9bZ62jW for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCBE1ADF7F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0AAKsXI007669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:20:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0AAKr9m031875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:54 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.203]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:54 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QO2ubcd8jULd0mZjw0Bzj7W3Jp9xLQAgAAEkACAAAr6gIAAG//w Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:20:52 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B101649@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <2DA16AA9-5CE3-4243-93E2-F48F4F673037@cisco.com> <52CFBF3F.3030708@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52CFBF3F.3030708@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:07 -0000 My responses: Keith 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not applicable 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We are interested in interworking webrtc communications with the existing t= elecommunications infrastructure. All video there is currently H.264. This would point the market to being only VP8 and would ensure that all com= munications outside webrtc would need the video transcoded. While that is t= echnically feasible, we would prefer to limit those scenarios where it is n= ecessary, e.g. multiparty conference. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The addition of VP8 means additional costs and real-time performance risks = for interworking equipment with existing telecommunications infrastructure = which we would prefer to avoid. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The addition of VP8 means additional costs and real-time performance risks = for interworking equipment with existing telecommunications infrastructure = which we would prefer to avoid. If this option is adopted, then a clear definition of browser will need to = be provided. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This provides no solution to interworking with existing telecommunication i= nfrastructure assuming the implementation decision is effectively made by t= he browser provider rather than the application. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There is no existing current telecommunications infrastructure implementing= this and therefore to promote this is as a solution would be wasted effort= that would achieve no interoperability with existing telecommunications in= frastructure. The quality over a wireless access technology is unknown. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Given the amount of resource spent trying to find a MTI codec without succe= ss, we would rather park the issue and move on. In any case, the decision o= n an MTI codec would need to be taken again in a few years time. We believe= that lack of an MTI codec is not a major barrier to deployment. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See answers to 5) and 6). 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See answers to 5) and 6). 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This option can result in the exclusion on H.264, which is the main codec d= eployed in existing telecommunications environments, and therefore there wi= ll be no interoperability with existing telecommunications environments wit= hout transcoding. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 10) =20 From mgerman@fing.edu.uy Fri Jan 10 02:21:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8993C1ADF7F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrNzCvb774IV for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from roura.ac.upc.es (roura.ac.upc.es [147.83.33.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC071ADFCB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.ac.upc.edu (gw.ac.upc.es [147.83.30.3]) by roura.ac.upc.es (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0AAL3F3001978 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:21:04 +0100 Received: from [192.168.10.133] (unknown [84.88.36.116]) by gw.ac.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B0E6B0283 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:17:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CFC98E.8090804@fing.edu.uy> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:21:02 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDn_Germ=E1n?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050008000709050805010309" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050008000709050805010309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Here's my input. BR, Martin. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No*** 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 Thanks, The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------050008000709050805010309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Hi all,
    Here's my input.
    BR,
      Martin.

    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    Thanks,


    The Chairs




    _______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --------------050008000709050805010309-- From stephane.cazeaux@orange.com Fri Jan 10 02:57:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032801ADFA1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:57:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YWvTOIGgr29F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [195.101.245.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2131AD738 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DA63E30117 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:00:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH02.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.13]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12390E30116 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:00:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDMB03.rd.francetelecom.fr ([fe80::4c06:6ece:ed2d:797e]) by FTRDCH02.rd.francetelecom.fr ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:56:49 +0100 From: To: Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOlmtiMlunNAUm54GWNtH5zrZp95xwg Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.193.193.188] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FEE7A6136F518B4B87037A58924AB6B006EBC142FTRDMB03rdfranc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:57:04 -0000 --_000_FEE7A6136F518B4B87037A58924AB6B006EBC142FTRDMB03rdfranc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: This option does not meet the use cases where compatibility with existing d= evices and services is required. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Having two codecs brings no benefits to any use case (pure webrtc or compat= ibility with existing services) compared to H.264 only. On the contrary, it= adds costs and risks to all devices that would need to support both codecs= . 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2 and 3. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Global compatibility will not be guaranteed, even between two browsers. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2. 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 5. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2 and 5. 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 3. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 3. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 5. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 3. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 5. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Same as 2. --_000_FEE7A6136F518B4B87037A58924AB6B006EBC142FTRDMB03rdfranc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

     

    1.&n= bsp;   All en= tities MUST support H.264

    a.&n= bsp;   Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    YES

    b.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    This option does not meet the use = cases where compatibility with existing devices and services is required. <= /o:p>

    3.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port both H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Having two codecs brings no benefi= ts to any use case (pure webrtc or compatibility with existing services) compared to H.264 only. On the contrary, it adds costs and risks= to all devices that would need to support both codecs.

    4.   = ; Browsers MUST support= both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2 and 3.

    5.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port at least one of H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Global compatibility will not be g= uaranteed, even between two browsers.

    6.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2.

    7.&n= bsp;   There = is no MTI video codec

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 5.

    8.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2 and 5.

     

    9.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port Theora

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2.

     

    10.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 3.

     

    11.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 3.

    12.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at = least one of H.264 or VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 5.

     

    13.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST support H.263

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2.

     

    14.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 3.

     

    15.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 5.

     

    16.&= nbsp; All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.&n= bsp;   Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Same as 2.

    =  

     

    --_000_FEE7A6136F518B4B87037A58924AB6B006EBC142FTRDMB03rdfranc_-- From peter.dunkley@crocodilertc.net Fri Jan 10 03:23:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311391AC4C1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:23:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vr5-9A5eb3FO for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x234.google.com (mail-ie0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FBA1ADFC7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ar20so721988iec.39 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:22:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=crocodilertc.net; s=google; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Odc4iTx8Vl0q16fls4ejZWj5Vk31lzq9TFMWO8zgPWI=; b=t9WoDRguewXbwcAZUjFMU7s/8+wGSRaGZSnHz0TcQFn2qL8r84j5rc/dHP92Y0yboB XHkuL7Avwpy9P58Uhgpfj/8FGCbbWPqI+S9zwxVi0ZUPK59d+W6BTasaXhm9guX+Tz9Z rOD5ADd9g/fF9iMaoDDUkAzaUOtElG7yC0nzc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Odc4iTx8Vl0q16fls4ejZWj5Vk31lzq9TFMWO8zgPWI=; b=kl0AppiamW31d1ma6i5Qa0qIEZY/TnZKRLfg/FfdIoHo5RDB8lmhCdnnpNwHobpOHA FeFntve3o8+n4EAue0aNSbJYGq24iArcK2PXsb0J5y1rFRlXFWtqVOCv1heReQCQjQ5W t4ec5nn0I80RdE+Wh2Sj7pnOD7ThfcdxhAy0w3rpA6s3wZd5dyCX3IB6dL4mL1NNX6Xz twBK79bw9/6bxCYivuIEZ5ynt5l9MIt7PcmaTtZf47SfTris23wp1csn0MZvK8/TtkoB NEfv/DLatxIa432fJa2pOM9EM10kwRUOvFbL4gGEjk6Z8z5/kcyS9EwL/10OZDsQsSMQ LYkA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmwzNpB6gI1DbQ1c/FSdQrPAvQt9GN72zUsgFeETEKQsE3GTFlZH/71W50Cs6ZLMGtli7XZ MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.29.114 with SMTP id j18mr2639590igh.24.1389352971954; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.229.13 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:22:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:22:51 +0000 Message-ID: From: Peter Dunkley To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd758e85c8e4404ef9bf2d3 Subject: [rtcweb] Stephane Cazeaux's choices (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:23:04 -0000 --047d7bd758e85c8e4404ef9bf2d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 and the same applies to other's who have said YES to only one option and made statements like this... > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > *NO*a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > *Having two codecs brings no benefits to any use case (pure webrtc or > compatibility with existing services) compared to H.264 only. On the > contrary, it adds costs and risks to all devices that would need to support > both codecs.* > > Surely it would be more accurate to say "Having two codecs brings no benefits to any use case *that I care about *(pure webrtc or compatibility with existing services) compared to H.264 only." Given the near infinite number of possible use cases across all future time I don't think it is possible for anyone to definitively say "having two codecs brings no benefits to any use case". 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > *NO*a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > *Same as 2 and 3.* Surely making browsers support both *does* meet the use cases where compatibility with existing devices and servers is required. As others have already pointed out this means that general purpose programmable end-points (browsers) will be compatible with new and legacy devices and services, while dedicated native apps (that will inevitably be tied to specific devices/services anyway) can be implemented to support just the codec(s) needed. Regards, Peter --047d7bd758e85c8e4404ef9bf2d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    and the same applies to other's who have said YES to only one opti= on and made statements like this...
    =A0
    3= .=A0=A0= =A0=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
    .Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accepta= ble]:
    NO
    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0Do you have any= objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Having two codecs brings no benefits to any us= e case (pure webrtc or compatibility with existing services) compared to H.= 264 only. On the contrary, it adds costs and risks to all devices that woul= d need to support both codecs.


    Surely it = would be more accurate to say "Having two codecs brings no benefits to= any use case that I care about=A0(pure webrtc or compatibili= ty with existing services) compared to H.264 only."

    Given the near infinite number of possible use cases ac= ross all future time I don't think it is possible for anyone to definit= ively say "having two codecs brings no benefits to any use case".=

    4.=A0=A0=A0=A0Browsers MUST support both H.264 and= VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    .Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accepta= ble]:
    NO
    a.=A0=A0=A0=A0Do you have any= objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Same as 2 and 3.

    Surely making browsers support both does= =A0meet the use cases where compatibility with existing devices and servers= is required. =A0As others have already pointed out this means that general= purpose programmable end-points (browsers) will be compatible with new and= legacy devices and services, while dedicated native apps (that will inevit= ably be tied to specific devices/services anyway) can be implemented to sup= port just the codec(s) needed.


    Regards,


    <= /p>

    Peter

    --047d7bd758e85c8e4404ef9bf2d3-- From alexander.hclt@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 04:17:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EDF1ADFB1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:17:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cMkOVpk4NAa9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x232.google.com (mail-we0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B841ADF8E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id t60so3941241wes.37 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:16:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=HUO4O4Yy2daEwePoc+c99V/u/3sLwILng3YA/YOUoTU=; b=uro5dBV2fS3lM0q1twvCw/qFaTQELsdVH1/s03hDUvoFzeMLuOHhv0gFqjwTdKEkPT VZlRzlGCU0rXwjSLtQyGGFxoJWJvf/Z0nVzY1FlTqi/RC4AEGgsV3ZwzRjB1Xgke9fnH NiZLPoQaroeDAhB1aRlRchS5UZJyt6sv3YSipkK8IK9kbl+zDf7Mswv73iUWw2+5wZzm SGuTvFQqbc8+zuW2RLuOepgz+7eBhcJghjI6siPr0aHStFAZOIDgwG52DMVlba1XpVXV YceJ0KL4ZAwHJZiyuQyvZfdNk77A3Kn44sbPrhxOmwErw7qbSlW/c6VIlOny33kOwLSK a30A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.176.163 with SMTP id cj3mr8251042wjc.8.1389356219350; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.192.72 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:16:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:46:59 +0530 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?4K6F4K6y4K+G4K6V4K+N4K644K6+4K6j4K+N4K6f4K6w4K+NIC0gQWxleGFuZGVy?= To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cbfeaebc4d904ef9cb368 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:17:11 -0000 --089e013cbfeaebc4d904ef9cb368 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:* Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *H.264 is widely used. This might corner the existing installed base, if VP8 is chosen by majority of vendors.* All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality.* There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *This may not allow interoperability among browsers. * All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:* Poor quality of H.261.* All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality of H.261.* All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *See 5b.* All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Prefer H.264 over H.263* All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *See 9.b.* All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: --089e013cbfeaebc4d904ef9cb368 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  • All en= tities MUST support H.264

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Yes

      2. =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All en= tities MUST support VP8

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • = All en= tities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All en= tities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 = is widely used. This might corner the existing installed base, if VP8 is ch= osen by majority of vendors.

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor q= uality.

  • There = is no MTI video codec

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This m= ay not allow interoperability among browsers.=A0

  • All en= tities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Poor= quality of H.261.

  • All en= tities MUST support Theora

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

  • Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Poor q= uality of H.261.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

  • Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 5b= .

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All en= tities MUST support H.263

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Prefer= H.264 over H.263

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    • <= ol style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;margin-top:0pt;marg= in-bottom:0pt">

  • Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: See 9.= b.

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      =

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=

  • All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    --089e013cbfeaebc4d904ef9cb368-- From stephane.proust@orange.com Fri Jan 10 06:54:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387811AE099 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 06:54:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWB2HJfeg06w for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 06:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A561AE098 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 06:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.199]) by omfeda11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 98B321B8347; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.186]) by omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 808C4C806C; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::a42f:c628:bc76:d592]) by PEXCVZYH01.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:36 +0100 From: To: 'Silvia Pfeiffer' , "'rtcweb@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPDestKreN8FbLv0mO80KgriWpCJp+A7kA Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:54:36 +0000 Message-ID: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.1.9.63615 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:54:49 -0000 >>Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC= to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features on= ly? >>I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they = look backwards and not forwards. I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn= ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with= a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit= surprised that your are part of them. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) Best regards St=E9phane -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Silvia Pfeiffer Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 10 janvier 2014 11:03 =C0=A0: rtcweb@ietf.org Objet=A0: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Recently there have been a whole bunch of replies that only accepted option= 1 with the singluar rationale that it's the only option to provide interop= with legacy networks. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: interoperability with legacy networks [all others are NO] All these people do not want a new technology, but only want more of what t= hey already have. Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC t= o interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo= ok backwards and not forwards. Best Regards, Silvia. _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From goran.ap.eriksson@ericsson.com Fri Jan 10 07:49:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F251AE0B0 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTMw0hCUJXIj for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D501AE0D9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:49:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7eff8e000000eda-e8-52d01694db94 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8E.06.03802.49610D25; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:49:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.201]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:49:40 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Eriksson_AP?= To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOTPGzYi6xM1EqayVAcPG13bZp8p54wgAGjqNA= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:49:39 +0000 Message-ID: <532A6DC6F9C115439C41705FF73D13871C4935ED@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.19] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje4UsQtBBo9bJC3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRvO6X4wFb5Uqzi48zdjA+EK6i5GTQ0LARGLepSfMELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAQOMUrsO/OOGcJZwijRNvszG0gVm4C3xLQVZ1lBbBEBdYnLDy+wg9jCAjYSm5ae YIGI20q82L0NyraSmHXoDJDNzsEioCpxTxgkyivgK7H+1GMWiPFTGCXuzb3E1MXIwcEp4Cex oSkZpIZRQFbi/vd7YFOYBcQlbj2ZzwRxp4DEkj3noW4WlXj5+B8rhK0o0f60gRGiXk/ixtQp bBC2tsSyha+ZIfYKSpyc+YRlAqPoLCRjZyFpmYWkZRaSlgWMLKsY2XMTM3PSy402MQKD/uCW 36o7GO+cEznEKM3BoiTO++Gtc5CQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGRuOq9ljpJ9Jq y+/FlNWy6f1bfc3tvNmv0hXBHPN2CMb+KNpw+97bS3/rvizvjLokLlf61txQTXc1U27SkR6V +fJpx2fLT9xiyLXYapvBusiOFS4r1jxaJLHFYVqaufrcfdZPDL7HxwhF7f155jk7/+Oy+x0z WO894vRKn8Z1WH2fe3Xjs/RN85VYijMSDbWYi4oTATeFLqJIAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:49:59 -0000 Hi all, Here's my input. Many regards G=F6ran 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The licensing situation is at the moment still uncertain. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In case a consensus cannot be reached this time, a no MTI Video is acce= ptable for the first version=20 of the API since further discussions will continue to delay and take fo= cus from other parts of work. This has the effect of also delaying the start of the work in subsequen= t versions, or phases, of the API and the underlying implementation, which is also important for the = WebRTC standard competitiveness.=20 It should however be noted that long term, an MTI video is preferable. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 = (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)=20 H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec = H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587=20 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435=20 Thanks, The Chairs From dbenham@cisco.com Fri Jan 10 07:57:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319E21AE0CB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:57:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y9Dj5zty7A8e for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7733D1AE0D1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:57:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4646; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389369442; x=1390579042; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=W3FU/c3hGH4HISEuAddcVMtziMs6wldaf5AbQTU+d5M=; b=ReUihWaZffXaVVYOyQ971cpOB2REKc9gJ9GEtlDKKZGWDgXAYJo0qzix DNPlPY12dorVxR4lE9DgY5OiMBeFJGz/wXp3Bw6fJimExptHuTRptSxkJ oDVjPHdMMvDHENoKLuQrKXhjVqGcyU8/2faKfwe3tOMMc0bR9ZBnEE3OI 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFACAY0FKtJXG8/2dsb2JhbABZgwuBDrlEgQgWdIInAQQ6UQEIIhRCJgEEG4d8mQSqGxeOVQKDXIETBKosgy2CKg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,638,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="296479633" Received: from rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com ([173.37.113.188]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2014 15:57:21 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com [173.37.183.77]) by rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0AFvL2D014060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:57:21 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.125]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:57:21 -0600 From: "David Benham (dbenham)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (David Benham) Thread-Index: Ac8OHJ1Ni0HMvZSNRrmF6eYVaWU2aA== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:57:20 +0000 Message-ID: <0683D6CB32AC424D8AF52C0F660E5DC5201ACF57@xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.84.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (David Benham) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:57:33 -0000 1. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Do= es not leverage installed base for direct media interoperability and has mu= ch less certainty around patent exposure. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Med= ia interoperability would be assured, making it acceptable, but adds the ri= sks/cons of both choices for little or no extra performance or installed ba= se interoperability upside vs H.264 alone. =20 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Me= dia interoperability should be assured, making it acceptable, but adds the = risks/cons of both choices for little or no extra performance or installed = base interoperability upside and leaves the door open to future, non-browse= r entities to make a non-interoperability choice between them. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Hal= f a chance entities will have the same codec is not a strategy for assured = interoperability. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Web= RTC needs to deliver high quality Video well beyond H.261. 7. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Int= eroperability not assured.=20 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.= 261 is not high enough quality and this adds the risks/cons of each choice = for little or no upside. 9. All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Do= es not leverage installed base for direct media interoperability. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.= 261 is not high enough quality and this adds the risks/cons of each choice = for little or no upside. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=20 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.= 263 is still below desired quality and this adds the risks/cons of each cho= ice for little or no upside. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUS= T support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Th= is adds the risks/cons of both choices for little or no upside vs H.264 alo= ne. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.= 263 is still below desired quality. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Ad= ds the risks/cons of each choice for little or no upside vs H.264 alone. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.=20 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Do= es not leverage installed base for direct media interoperability.=20 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Be= low high quality needed. From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Fri Jan 10 08:16:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E331AE0D6 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tm9t0aHXqvdd for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f170.google.com (mail-ie0-f170.google.com [209.85.223.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D831AE0EB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id tq11so4621088ieb.15 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:16:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yacfp1ZtTo/nqec9g59+V73UVPkIorZEdgFZjZF5v30=; b=U1ZHJy0Am253mYniMqjuU1Z+ehlV7TP0rMr0+l9m9F3S/f5PwP68gcoSD9jtQnW9wR oj0CG8TJY3FaPt5KxuMIN0uT+bdHd63jNlc08Pn8Ehib1oQENCRxLP7j6aAq1msaiGtY XmAhbJJrxjQ0HAntjmL+MrGoXU9/iJLgczBMhA2Q/pJrWCI4LY3eLCCPXbJm4D6RLdDE jBkbMm46Ay2QuiJcdfF2zVZs1jM8KeXAhRNXlhsBC+M9c+G5+z3SZ6WUca4WGS5nul23 1tIhSmjWOYIvqxkt35v7AXGdKMqzrzrn9utVS6S+HGOL/OEhqL3Lmp/4Y5iLthPOMwBI HLjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkjv6kVRvFUhdNvfG+e2lAi7hvtEz8jlCI/mO4zr/p9IJ5JKV2GLV2NFjkx3K9ZqEbSvP3d X-Received: by 10.50.36.67 with SMTP id o3mr4189070igj.47.1389370559858; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm3250322igc.4.2014.01.10.08.15.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:15:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D01CBC.6050707@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:56 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:16:11 -0000 I am equally frustrated. People voting for one option (or multiple options that are equivalent) makes it impossible to find a compromise. The point of this exercise is to find a *compromise* that suits *everyone*, not just wrap your existing products in WebRTC for marketing purposes. Gili On 10/01/2014 5:02 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > Recently there have been a whole bunch of replies that only accepted > option 1 with the singluar rationale that it's the only option to > provide interop with legacy networks. > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: interoperability with legacy networks > > [all others are NO] > > All these people do not want a new technology, but only want more of > what they already have. > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict > WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old > features only? > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because > they look backwards and not forwards. > > Best Regards, > Silvia. > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From maikmerten@googlemail.com Fri Jan 10 08:19:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C651AE104 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjgZ9Hc2ELoO for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-x22b.google.com (mail-ee0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA85F1AE106 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f43.google.com with SMTP id c13so1999780eek.16 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dzeMBvUj8O8QG7JLworxMx1sTdwKbfvEHnkBbAjNW70=; b=sghq52IDBwUAG9cqHsXmIja1Sgv5PdIvGsGi+AC+CrgiLmwJLZE6wHDsLMf38jY/vI Ka77tN4L1NjmNWdh/SjoiJS52no9JN28mnWjUM4kDkNtpHq0TgTLWLPmmAZVNr0VfEY4 Kw+z2HoFpI0dMuek5xl36c5kaRoxKm7si8+xClqmmMM+hLNe4JSnaEQEA6feOTCl5aNV TXt4dnsid1QlfVzQzQPZiFt1jvyBZfCgJ7wb+zxvQfAhHCwtEDQFD9i2lPHQkXUR+AxQ LcJSVbHu92IAn7iyS0+lqyeF2mMayher29KJC5oyiKh0W9Nj/gpbpJOA7fbmhJgh2vuG p79Q== X-Received: by 10.14.207.194 with SMTP id n42mr10991122eeo.76.1389370760973; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (v2201202116457532.yourvserver.net. [46.38.243.75]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm15689296eeg.11.2014.01.10.08.19.16 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:19:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D01DDB.3060102@googlemail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:20:43 +0100 From: Maik Merten User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:19:35 -0000 Am 10.01.2014 15:54, schrieb stephane.proust@orange.com: > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. As far as I can tell, this is a poll to collect opinions on the various options that are on the table and I'm optimistic every opinion will be noted. Given this is a *straw* poll, every reply will be disregarded in the sense of this *not* being decision-making. ;-) > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. As far as I recall, most people who said they could live with options that include "safe to implement" legacy codecs also voiced support for having at least one high performance codec (i.e., H.264 or VP8). If I read things correctly most people who went this road are not enthusiastic regarding old coding technology, but are willing to accept that compromise for the sake of finding an interoperable solution that can be implemented by everyone. If I understand correctly, Silvia's point is that the "H.264, or nothing" camp seems to be significantly less willing to commit to such a compromise, employing arguments regarding interoperability with pre-webrtc systems, while one perhaps could argue that a) ensuring interoperability between designed-for-webrtc systems is already hard enough and b) that legacy systems should not block making progress regarding interoperability of designed-for-webrtc systems. This is, of course, merely my interpretation. Best regards, Maik From uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com Fri Jan 10 08:34:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5ED1AE113 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:34:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BTs9auWPZMO2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A6E1AE0DE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s0AGY0lY032716 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:34:00 +0100 Received: from DEMUHTC003.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.34]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s0AGY0uN001488 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:34:00 +0100 Received: from DEMUHTC006.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.37) by DEMUHTC003.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:34:00 +0100 Received: from DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net ([169.254.5.117]) by DEMUHTC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:33:59 +0100 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHPDiHDeA62xOEkTUWfNcLvzeNnWA== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:33:59 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82093A8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <0683D6CB32AC424D8AF52C0F660E5DC5201ACF57@xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0683D6CB32AC424D8AF52C0F660E5DC5201ACF57@xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 6254 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1389371640-00001A6F-862355EF/0-0/0-0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:34:16 -0000 Like some people answering earlier, I have chosen Steve McFarlin's weights = to indicate where in the interval between "Yes" (1.0) and "No" (0.0) an "Ac= ceptable" response would be located. =20 1) All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2) All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = VP8 has not been developed in a collaborative process by an SDO, but is own= ed and controlled by one company. VP8 does not interoperate with most exist= ing equipment and systems, requiring transcoding.=20 =20 3) All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = The additional support of VP8 adds complexity, but does not provide additio= nal technical value compared to H.264, which is widely available in mobile = terminals and fixed-line services alike. Additionally, same concerns as wit= h (2). 4) Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Distinguishing between browsers and non-browsers may be difficult. Also, th= is does not achieve interoperability between "non-browsers". For "browsers"= , same concerns as with (3). 5) All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = This is what the implementations in the market do anyway, so putting this i= nto specs does not change the current situation.=20 6) All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = H.261 provides inferior quality. It cannot compete with existing video comm= unication solutions. The codec is not supported in current systems, requiri= ng transcoding when interworking with these systems. 7) There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.5) b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Note: Given the fact that there are such strong positions, this corresponds= to relying on the market to decide this.=20 8) All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = This means at least a part of the users have to cope with the drawbacks of = H.261 - see (6). Additionally, same concerns as with (2). =20 9) All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Unclear licensing situation 10) All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = This means at least a part of the users have to cope with the drawbacks of = H.261 - see (6). Additionally, same concerns as with (2). 11) All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Same concerns as with (2). 12) All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Same concerns as with (2). 13) All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.25) b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Note: H.263 is an outdated codec, and has recently been removed by 3GPP fro= m their IMS specification. The quality it can provide is however better tha= n that achieved by H.261. So, even though we do not favour this option, as = this codec has just been taken out of service in the mobile ecosystem, we b= elieve it may be a viable fallback, complemented by higher quality codec(s)= as decided by the market.=20 14) All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Same concerns as with (2) and (9) 15) All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = This option will not provide interoperability. Additionally, same concerns = as with (9). 16) All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Purely based on intra-frame coding, the quality delivered by Motion JPEG is= even worse than that of H.261 at the same bitrate.=20 H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 = (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)=20 H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec = H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587=20 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435=20 Thanks, The Chairs From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Fri Jan 10 08:39:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506421ADF46 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yt0dofHzEyzd for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f180.google.com (mail-ig0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA871AE125 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f180.google.com with SMTP id m12so1578604iga.1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=k3EjTkMcbziatxi6B6HbYNuyrh6qDCBGLtHnA8KO3QU=; b=NFJzZG/hrgHuqKHO6s9btt7qibnXKGhy0mkisl2TgSB5zeT9JrT/e0Q5oRDQtAjYoy 3jCE16a1lNFEIntgzU/2SKaAm+xDCsEjtWy72BzlpfM0h1ObsMD2aZc3khvvXnmsAM+Q bq+CKAbdEH6ZvvbhnPctqyQJfm37dH4Y67XvCy6f6eLDZpqRSXiSZtgxceMpp6Z1cPh3 QBdexIhR2fsGUUh5BMrGN4PAAGw6mzY8LDw1S9IfHsYVKomJnE/dZr5/XRUzxGV9/zj4 Ob0h+bcEC9ov82VM/1ctbHJeK2lM3TcWO0KSXMFSej/iNGeaPS6cPk+tmAeInrWeFm7j N02Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnIuSRDmI8z7PTjdMcWlPA0xLfIMIHKL85/5ipYEx3ODlycmPYcEXv9lySigcykduxJQm5b X-Received: by 10.50.60.4 with SMTP id d4mr4568895igr.14.1389371954154; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l7sm3360641igx.2.2014.01.10.08.39.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:39:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:39:11 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020101000308080103000208" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020101000308080103000208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > >>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? >>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: * Use H.261, or * Transcode, or * Drop Video By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free. Gili --------------020101000308080103000208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili
    --------------020101000308080103000208-- From jeremy.fuller@genband.com Fri Jan 10 08:53:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11D41AE0C3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S6_lLmj-ZPTw for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe005.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5806D1ADFB9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail9-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.228) by CO9EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.236.130.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.22; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:01 +0000 Received: from mail9-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail9-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427301C009A for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:63.149.188.7; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:owa.genband.com; RD:63-149-188-7.dia.static.qwest.net; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 0 X-BigFish: VPS0(zzc85fhzz1f42h2148h208ch1ee6h1fdah2073h2146h1202h1e76h2189h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6hzz18c673hz2fh109h2a8h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h14ddh1504h1537h153bh15d0h162dh1631h1758h18e1h1946h19b5h1b0ah1b2fh1bceh224fh1fb3h1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1dc1h1dfeh1dffh1e1dh1fe8h1ff5h20f0h2216h22d0h2336h2438h1155h) Received-SPF: pass (mail9-co9: domain of genband.com designates 63.149.188.7 as permitted sender) client-ip=63.149.188.7; envelope-from=jeremy.fuller@genband.com; helo=owa.genband.com ; .genband.com ; Received: from mail9-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail9-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1389372779224871_21671; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS031.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.251]) by mail9-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DF6840047 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from owa.genband.com (63.149.188.7) by CO9EHSMHS031.bigfish.com (10.236.130.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:52:58 +0000 Received: from GBEX02.genband.com (172.16.21.98) by GBEX01.genband.com (172.16.21.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:52:38 -0600 Received: from GBPLMAIL02.genband.com ([fe80::9455:4039:582f:aee8]) by gbex02.genband.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:52:38 -0600 From: Jeremy Fuller To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) Thread-Index: Ac8OH4qsHJQA3sEPQ4KngpBuF4srQw== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:52:37 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.16.21.173] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC257gbplmail02gen_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: genband.com X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:15 -0000 --_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC257gbplmail02gen_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here is my input: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes [The significant volume of existing deployments of H.264 will provide= early benefit if this is selected as the mandatory to implement video code= c] b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: --- b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptab= le b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Offers little in terms of guaranteed interoperability 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Concerns over performance and existing market support. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a consensus let us allow the marke= t to decide and move on] b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Unclear of the value of this over option 6. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Concerns over performance and existing market support. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a "lowes= t common denominator" 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a "lowes= t common denominator" 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a "lowes= t common denominator" 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Concerns over performance and existing market support. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} b. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a "lowes= t common denominator" 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Concerns over performance and existing market support. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summari= ze them: Concerns over performance and existing market support. Regards, Jeremy Fuller GENBAND --_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC257gbplmail02gen_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,
     
    Here is my input:
     
    1.    All entities MUST support H.264
     
    a.    Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes =
     
    [The significant volume of existing deplo= yments of H.264 will provide early benefit if this is selected as the manda= tory to implement video codec]
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
           
    2.    All entities MUST support VP8
     
    a.   Are you in favor of this o= ption [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ---
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
     
    3.    All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
     
    4.    Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other e= ntities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
     
    5.    All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 a= nd VP8
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Offers little in terms of guaranteed inte= roperability
     
    6.    All entities MUST support H.261
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing ma= rket support.
     
    7.    There is no MTI video codec
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
    [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a cons= ensus let us allow the market to decide and move on]
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
     
    8.    All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Unclear of the value of this over option = 6.
     
    9.    All entities MUST support Theora
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing ma= rket support.
     
    10.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 61}
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for op= timised handling of a “lowest common denominator”
     
    11.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 63}
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for op= timised handling of a “lowest common denominator”
     
    12.  All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8,= and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for op= timised handling of a “lowest common denominator”
     
     
    13.  All entities MUST support H.263
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing ma= rket support.
     
     
    14.  All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, The= ora}
     
    b.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    a.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for op= timised handling of a “lowest common denominator”
     
     
    15.  All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing ma= rket support.
     
     
    16.  All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
     
    a.      Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
     
    b.    Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing ma= rket support.
     
     
    Regards,
    Jeremy Fuller
    GENBAND
     
     --_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC257gbplmail02gen_-- From juberti@google.com Fri Jan 10 08:56:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BF41ADFB9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vgH_uevam7JV for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-x22d.google.com (mail-vb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F5B1ACCE2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m10so635770vbh.4 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=X82crcrVkZUA2Knu+CxPg6dgTNoqVArA8bIRparCxiA=; b=kNhmJxfGCkTkd6uf6II/O0J3Rar1u5J7mZyxgnUWvcnwaxVcj5bu3RQq5rb4fJeuBx Ei7/IWqgOhrPy+nmQ4au++BCMs8oyK99NX9M+mRevhLvJOisiChrHKYcHe8OL3mOdr0z 7Ft8jjnGKt1+iIYj3//297JV5WjmXjYYhRj/JMLyPdE7l7b4LjZPm+c1lK4Xee9WywmU Uf2GJJdhykl0UCmKViSUgPYj69JBFYwE/zQZEYPMGNJlf8FcWAdvY5RJ3JhS1vrE9SlU fLT/f7M0d904xVQYBoDg3Eg2bI2q8VmHepDI7rxQQPGIBENIInUY+XXmtTwKwCPufv6Q TrWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=X82crcrVkZUA2Knu+CxPg6dgTNoqVArA8bIRparCxiA=; b=CJn7ZO8yi3dV/jtrrcpnFL3kWi+yjvekWhNUABkGLkvdVHqiko8IBgF3qtrmmlQUpc ejBelU4dGXWEod2JaJ72t599+RFjmHNeR51zuP5rBIKMA5+H7Rfqxckxn7fQgM9kAkuE tRyrlQ96qE4LGnksZpS2KMN3E7mPrXpZumQ9BSPHWd2mhb++urlgHWfpKvXf1faO4vtv Sj7u8DDWTqm+WElG2B4wSeHXC4B7hM4TLaWQYjEUksh/bON6vIX7hzmuvyQjOPQ51flU P5stTTUvAtxDvnotAklDud6hU+Ld9I3AKQpCco62B5cEEBLu9mM0uXX8PKWn7ZghRAsb o7UA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmtnEHZz9S42/SLc5LiVK5zgN2uVrV7+2DrLeQQP0Cw1IH1eGstJoDFQdlpqSDIl736CXwCMMc0B6+vv/Adf+a16g7pYEvBq9X2usFM/GiL03MLan5LGtzHxSO338sYXw34JBZGuuaGCULY2KxInrpfxy3mBujWj1llCeJqDE+FlGqC1nQWcVQPkA7MicW+PZCVforC X-Received: by 10.58.133.137 with SMTP id pc9mr1731734veb.53.1389373004404; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.53.74 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Justin Uberti Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:56:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jeremy Fuller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacc19e6374ee04efa09c16 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:56:57 -0000 --047d7bacc19e6374ee04efa09c16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How should one interpret the "---" answer to #2? On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jeremy Fuller w= rote: > Hi, > > Here is my input: > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > [The significant volume of existing deployments of H.264 will provide > early benefit if this is selected as the mandatory to implement video cod= ec] > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *---* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Offers little in terms of guaranteed interoperability > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a consensus let us allow the market to > decide and move on] > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Unclear of the value of this over option 6. > > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUS= T > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > b. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > Regards, > Jeremy Fuller > GENBAND > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7bacc19e6374ee04efa09c16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    How should one interpret the "---" answer to #2?=


    On Fri,= Jan 10, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jeremy Fuller <jeremy.fuller@genband.com= > wrote:
    Hi,
    =C2=A0
    Here is my input:
    =C2=A0
    1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.264
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes <= /div>
    =C2=A0
    [The significant volume of existing deploy= ments of H.264 will provide early benefit if this is selected as the mandat= ory to implement video codec]
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
    2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this op= tion [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ---
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0
    3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0
    4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other e= ntities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0
    5.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 a= nd VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Offers little in terms of guaranteed inter= operability
    =C2=A0
    6.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.261
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing mar= ket support.
    =C2=A0
    7.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is no MTI video codec
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
    [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a conse= nsus let us allow the market to decide and move on]
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0
    8.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Unclear of the value of this over option 6= .
    =C2=A0
    9.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support Theora
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing mar= ket support.
    =C2=A0
    10.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 61}
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for opt= imised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D
    =C2=A0
    11.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 63}
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for opt= imised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D
    =C2=A0
    12.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8,= and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for opt= imised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    13.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.263
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing mar= ket support.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    14.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, The= ora}
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Increases costs while not allowing for opt= imised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    15.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing mar= ket support.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    16.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
    =C2=A0
    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    =C2=A0
    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Concerns over performance and existing mar= ket support.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    Regards,
    Jeremy Fuller
    GENBAND
    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --047d7bacc19e6374ee04efa09c16-- From ted.ietf@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 09:11:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413C91AE14F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fE4juxROSi_r for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4623E1AE119 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id as1so5504479iec.27 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=9qgHnPk+AYCvksRfWy0JxYML2pDVH/pd8OC8u4/WDFs=; b=YzeNuPhtgASa72LLyjankdZ/l2CmPcJ6rsAseMI/xS5Dv1DIDeGYyHmKARczs0LJU5 uz3/hoKt1QUqkLkZgA94Mpz0oGUX5Z7eC4B8n31RIoKRulRo9fuAU28WaQFVYGv0R44I Ck1F02XZB1lI7683KDWNw1iERNZeptv5g26NP9uZ8UHTbmhLlrnzoXD0XJcCxYgcgK14 2jtOx8ldwhHCOaN/21oj6xdDToc3ySHTtJ6SX/YeQfUV5ejz+xinpNugwruq2pDWeEWM U/di/prIRfSLk52bri/QvIxyzhGCjwm2rSnTVbNU3XXFiJ522aN7LP64BrOTa2qY9Gsq cFwA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.38 with SMTP id lp6mr4671861igb.30.1389373888240; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.104.130 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:11:28 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings , Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0153836011a49f04efa0d1a0 Subject: [rtcweb] Personal comments on Poll responses X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:11:40 -0000 --089e0153836011a49f04efa0d1a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across the line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the motives of the respondents. We understand that this may be frustrating, but we need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or attacks. Please refrain from anything which might be considered a comment on the person making the poll response. thanks, Ted, Cullen, and Magnus --089e0153836011a49f04efa0d1a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across= the line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the moti= ves of the respondents.=A0 We understand that this may be frustrating, but = we need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or attack= s.=A0=A0=A0 Please refrain from anything which might be considered a commen= t on the person making the poll response.

    = thanks,

    Ted, Cullen, and Magnus
    --089e0153836011a49f04efa0d1a0-- From agrange@google.com Fri Jan 10 09:15:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7341AE13C for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WbMjv7XlForh for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x229.google.com (mail-oa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E081AE138 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id i4so4290000oah.14 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:14:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1WHwIwyYFXLKOzKRqvG914jUV2a4qjYX3Mb6zAKh3og=; b=eNOGOHpBQrOs4iQCTdZmop8SzqX9zz8UOPXsJXDwc0tMhy9m2+LSEw6Yj3j2dnSkkv 4Em5wW8xnI5BiHcpicusWy7RyZ0IT3ebYEnU1BMJJuj8WfpMv4c5cWz0F526MliMb8xw awfMeq5w9DKlGu/zTTLyEqI3Mh35vlMJ1Ugz5/qmN5Q97H8wRG4WtzrrY5hrvAuQtuZD PyFaRNn+9fteJZOnPcvGgBDnmdq2MyIVLeoMGV3xSGhmAn9peilfqMBlIB4G67ZCMgZD OJt1d6fGsbkPIbO6JMaLu0oed5ytVZfNCJdw1SzzpUjGFA8QxR/wiU2EJRY9tFMXCyi1 g86A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=1WHwIwyYFXLKOzKRqvG914jUV2a4qjYX3Mb6zAKh3og=; b=DfZKmCBy5jqNet010uOaneILjqKpeyrXjg80v5qfmkfMokpNUxJQcbTgiP0a18Y/cU sndu0DrZIVuu+T08qf/rgGc42yIlFA4480N2xEiJX0sEXJhxr4KSxqJrQ7l5fUvlTH4f wMwa5AZaevzNCpiBlbA6glE34qpQWtJ3Y9Km9ElqOBsAGR1C7w4uW5JVMSEhqAyQIUeM hAwDO3CRj0wTHEEbSEvZo11IzGV6fr7LdXkBLXCIabe7fkD7SmM9V+Z4ZLDKZjy0mIJt ltseaGFx9TxAmNzgq//z7sJIKhWtTtE6uqYw43jjW3k6emju6OKTqhbWKPNv6+DbqCyU Nc2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmukDFPfjXPUwV8KwQb8nuRZoUOY3O5oZPpKusdJ3IfbrIfqERw8lg9+PDYEjwfE5ifEB0t7U13lB64nG2nejvOm+u7yaj99ltevztUyNrQ+zHi48ZMrMz0BM3YX9/Gfsi9vfTeI8BMo0ujxYgkHEwORBQx0uAOCU2uA3zLKVDw4yBEzRx4XoBB/I/qUvveUOc2kBev MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.232.4 with SMTP id tk4mr8936383obc.9.1389374089789; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.103.170 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:14:49 -0800 Message-ID: From: Adrian Grange To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0445178f15553004efa0ddf4 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:04 -0000 --f46d0445178f15553004efa0ddf4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping is a big barrier, particularly for small and medium sized operators. WebRTC is most likely to succeed with fewer and lower barriers to entry where niche and innovative businesses can operate more on a par with the big service providers. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *YES* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *ACCEPTABLE (0.3)* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Far from ideal. The higher implementation and maintenance burden of specifying two codecs is a particular issue for smaller service providers, but it does pass the 'guaranteed interoperability' test. Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping for H.264 is a big barrier, particularly for small and medium sized operators. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This fails the 'guaranteed interoperability' test, the major/sole reason for an MTI codec, for operation between non-browser peers. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Fails the 'guaranteed interoperability' test, the major/sole reason for an MTI codec. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.261 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available bandwidth. Better options exist (VP8 being my choice). 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *ACCEPTABLE (0.3)* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Far from ideal in that it fails the 'guaranteed interoperability test', but an acceptable placeholder if consensus cannot be reached. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In practice, this is little different to specifying H.261 as the MTI. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.261 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available bandwidth. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the past. VP8 is a better option. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In practice, this is little different to specifying H.261 as the MTI. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.261 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available bandwidth. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In practice, this is little different to specifying H.263 as the MTI. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.263 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available bandwidth. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *ACCEPTABLE (0.4)* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Better than inflicting the higher implementation and maintenance burden of specifying two encoders, and does pass the 'guaranteed interoperability' test. Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping for H.264 is a big barrier, particularly for small and medium sized operators. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.263 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available bandwidth. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In practice, this is little different to specifying Theora as the MTI. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the past. VP8 is a better option. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This fails the 'guaranteed interoperability' test, the major/sole reason for an MTI codec. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the past. VP8 is a better option. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *NO* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Unacceptable compression performance and I suspect would not be used in practice, so I believe this would fail the 'guaranteed interoperability' test. Probably the worst of the proposed options. --f46d0445178f15553004efa0ddf4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    1. =C2=A0All entitie= s MUST support H.264
    =C2=A0 a. Are = you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping is a big barrier= , particularly for small and medium sized operators. WebRTC is most likely = to succeed with fewer and lower barriers to entry where niche and innovativ= e businesses can operate more on a par with the big service providers.

    =C2=A02. =C2=A0All entities MUST support VP8
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this op= tion [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0YES
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so p= lease summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
    =C2=A03. =C2=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0ACCEPTABLE (0.3)
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Far from ideal. The higher implementation and maintenance= burden of specifying two codecs is a particular issue for smaller service = providers, but it does pass the 'guaranteed=C2=A0interoperability' = test. Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping for H.264 is a big barri= er, particularly for small and medium sized operators.

    =C2=A04. =C2=A0Browsers MUST supp= ort both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 a= nd VP8
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/A= cceptable]:=C2=A0NO
    = =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize= them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This fails the 'guaranteed= interoperability' test, the major/sole reason for an MTI codec, for op= eration between non-browser peers.

    =C2=A05. =C2=A0All entities M= UST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0= NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fails the 'guaranteed interoperability' test, the = major/sole reason for an MTI codec.

    =C2=A06. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261<= br>
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this = option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting = the (distant) past. H.261 does not do the right thing for the user, it does= not make the best available use of available bandwidth. Better options exi= st (VP8 being my choice).

    =C2=A07. =C2=A0There is no MT= I video codec
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0ACCEPTABLE (0.3)
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Far from ideal in= that it fails the 'guaranteed=C2=A0interoperability test', but an = acceptable placeholder if consensus cannot be reached.

    =C2=A08. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST suppor= t at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =C2= =A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO<= /font>
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In practice, this is little different to specifying H.261 = as the MTI. We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the (dis= tant) past. H.261 does not do the right thing for the user, it does not mak= e the best available use of available bandwidth.

    =C2=A09. =C2=A0All entit= ies MUST support Theora
    =C2=A0 a. A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objection= s to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We should be plan= ning for the future, not resurrecting the past.=C2=A0VP8 is a better option.

    10. =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this o= ption [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so p= lease summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In practice, this i= s little different to specifying H.261 as the MTI. We should be planning fo= r the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.261 does not do the ri= ght thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of availabl= e bandwidth.

    11. =C2=A0All entities M= UST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable= ]:=C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0In practice, this is= little different to specifying H.263 as the MTI. We should be planning for= the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.263 does not do the rig= ht thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of available= bandwidth.

    12. =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using both H.2= 64 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/A= cceptable]:=C2=A0ACCEPTABLE (0.4)
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so pl= ease summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Better than inflic= ting the higher implementation and maintenance burden of specifying two enc= oders, and does pass the 'guaranteed=C2=A0interoperability' test.= =C2=A0Complex licensing and burden of book-keeping for H.264 is a big barri= er, particularly for small and medium sized operators.

    13. =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.263
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this optio= n [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We should be planni= ng for the future, not resurrecting the (distant) past. H.263 does not do t= he right thing for the user, it does not make the best available use of ava= ilable bandwidth.

    14. =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at le= ast two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
    =C2= =A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO<= /font>
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In practice, this is little different to specifying Theor= a as the MTI. We should be planning= for the future, not resurrecting the past. VP8 is a better option.<= /div>

    15. =C2=A0All= entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    =C2=A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= =C2=A0NO
    =C2=A0 b. Do you have any objections to this option= , if so please summarize them:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This fails the 'guaranteed interoperability' test= , the major/sole reason for an MTI codec.=C2=A0We should be planning for the future, not resurrecting the past= . VP8 is a better option.

    16. =C2=A0All entities M= UST support Motion JPEG
    =C2=A0 a. A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=C2=A0NO=C2=A0 b. Do you have any objection= s to this option, if so please summarize them:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unacceptable compre= ssion performance and I suspect would not be used in practice, so I believe= this would fail the 'guaranteed interoperability' test. Probably t= he worst of the proposed options.

    --f46d0445178f15553004efa0ddf4-- From jeremy.fuller@genband.com Fri Jan 10 09:15:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12E01AE158 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNSVi0B2T9cc for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from db9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (mail-db9lp0253.outbound.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045FD1AE138 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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envelope-from=jeremy.fuller@genband.com; helo=owa.genband.com ; .genband.com ; Received: from mail179-db9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail179-db9 (MessageSwitch) id 1389374129426257_18767; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB9EHSMHS002.bigfish.com (unknown [10.174.16.253]) by mail179-db9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63866A0241; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from owa.genband.com (63.149.188.7) by DB9EHSMHS002.bigfish.com (10.174.14.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:28 +0000 Received: from GBEX02.genband.com (172.16.21.98) by GBEX01.genband.com (172.16.21.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:27 -0600 Received: from GBPLMAIL02.genband.com ([fe80::9455:4039:582f:aee8]) by gbex02.genband.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:26 -0600 From: Jeremy Fuller To: Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) Thread-Index: Ac8OH4qsHJQA3sEPQ4KngpBuF4srQwAN6TkAAAwLQ+A= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.16.21.173] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC2CEgbplmail02gen_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: genband.com X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:47 -0000 --_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC2CEgbplmail02gen_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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351621AE103 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from xct102cnc.rim.net ([10.65.161.202]) by mhs212cnc.rim.net with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 10 Jan 2014 12:17:12 -0500 Received: from XMB122CNC.rim.net ([fe80::28c6:fa1c:91c6:2e23]) by XCT102CNC.rim.net ([fe80::2066:5d4f:8c45:af55%17]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:17:11 -0500 From: Andrew Allen To: Jeremy Fuller , Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) Thread-Index: Ac8OH4qsHJQA3sEPQ4KngpBuF4srQwAL0MgAAACqKwAACm8ywA== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:17:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.160.249] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985EEB6XMB122CNCrimnet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: 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IG9yIHJlcHJvZHVjdGlvbiBvZiB0aGlzIHRyYW5zbWlzc2lvbiBieSB1bmludGVuZGVkIHJlY2lw aWVudHMgaXMgbm90IGF1dGhvcml6ZWQgYW5kIG1heSBiZSB1bmxhd2Z1bC48YnI+PC9ib2R5Pg0K PC9odG1sPg0K --_000_BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233985EEB6XMB122CNCrimnet_-- From jeremy.fuller@genband.com Fri Jan 10 09:19:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C2A1AE16D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HguAq8b_r-TG for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:19:08 -0000 --_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC2F1gbplmail02gen_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WWVzDQoNCkZyb206IEFuZHJldyBBbGxlbiBbbWFpbHRvOmFhbGxlbkBibGFja2JlcnJ5LmNvbV0N ClNlbnQ6IDEwIEphbnVhcnkgMjAxNCAxNzoxNw0KVG86IEplcmVteSBGdWxsZXI7IEp1c3RpbiBV YmVydGkNCkNjOiBydGN3ZWJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbcnRjd2ViXSBTdHJhdyBQ b2xsIG9uIFZpZGVvIENvZGVjIEFsdGVybmF0aXZlcyAoSmVyZW15IEZ1bGxlcikNCg0KSmVyZW15 DQoNCkkgdGFrZSBpdCB0aGF0IG1lYW5zIHlvdSBhYnN0YWluZWQgb24gcHJvcG9zYWwgMg0KDQpB 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--_000_D9C9C6C10CA24644B3A854DB0C12E7D501711EC2F1gbplmail02gen_-- From andrew.hutton@unify.com Fri Jan 10 09:35:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF3B1AE0DE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.838 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.838 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FE5Au8EoeAZb for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx11.unify.com (mx11.unify.com [62.134.46.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51DE1ADF7D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.234]) by mx11.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id 147951EB86A4 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:34:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.126]) by MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.234]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:34:54 +0100 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac8OH4qsHJQA3sEPQ4KngpBuF4srQwACjhWA Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17CA0C94@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:35:08 -0000 1. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No= Objections 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The= fact that there is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the ow= ner is unwilling to license is of course a concern indicating that it may b= e too early to make a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait un= til the situation is clearer. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Th= e fact that there is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the o= wner is unwilling to license is of course a concern indicating that may be = too early to make a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait unti= l the situation is clearer. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Th= e fact that there is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the o= wner is unwilling to license is of course a concern indicating that it may = be too early to make a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait u= ntil the situation is clearer. There is no mandate/requirements to create s= eparate specifications for different entities. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Doe= s not guarantee interoperability. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In= ferior quality and no current implementations in browsers. 7. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Inf= erior quality and no current H.261 webrtc implementations. The fact that th= ere is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the owner is unwill= ing to license is of course a concern indicating that it is too early to ma= ke a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait until the situation= is clearer. 9. All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No = current Theora webrtc implementations and unclear license situation. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Inf= erior quality and no current H.261 webrtc implementations. The fact that th= ere is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the owner is unwill= ing to license is of course a concern indicating that it is too early to ma= ke a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait until the situation= is clearer. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:Infe= rior quality and no current H.263 webrtc implementations. The fact that the= re is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the owner is unwilli= ng to license is of course a concern indicating that it is too early to mak= e a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait until the situation = is clearer. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The= fact that there is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which states the ow= ner is unwilling to license is of course a concern indicating that it is to= o early to make a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to wait until = the situation is clearer. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Inf= erior quality and no current H.263 webrtc implementations. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Unc= lear license situation and no current webrtc implementations regarding Theo= ra and the fact that there is a known IPR declaration against VP8 which sta= tes the owner is unwilling to license is of course a concern indicating tha= t it is too early to make a decision on making VP8 MTI. I would prefer to w= ait until the situation is clearer 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Unc= lear license situation and no current webrtc implementations. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:No Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Inf= erior quality and no current webrtc implementations. Regards Andy From frodek@tele.no Fri Jan 10 09:49:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2BF1AE14E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:49:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWbpp1I-BQHX for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gorgon.tele.no (gorgon.tele.no [193.156.17.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3091AE11D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gorgon.tele.no ([193.156.17.70] helo=[IPv6:::1]) by gorgon.tele.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1gty-0007Qx-0q for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:33:50 +0100 Message-ID: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:48:14 +0100 From: Frode Kileng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020607000800070309020803" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:49:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020607000800070309020803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *If an old fallback is to be selected, H261 is the safest option* 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable** * ** 2. ** Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *H.264 is a better option if non-royalty free codec to be selected* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: PS: IMHO "SHOULD support H264 and VP8" seems for me as the only potential option able to achieve consensus... frodek --------------020607000800070309020803 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: If an old fallback is to be selected, H261 is the safest option

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 is a better option if non-royalty free codec to be selected

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:


    PS: IMHO "SHOULD support H264 and VP8" seems for me as the only potential option able to achieve consensus...

    frodek

    --------------020607000800070309020803-- From mzanaty@cisco.com Fri Jan 10 10:09:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C921AE139 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nLfzM82v8UiA for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADC81AE170 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10713; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389377376; x=1390586976; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=tAYi/MKwNu33UVF6R8LNufaYHMK6Sl7CXGyZbdhTV0M=; b=SVBcgONJd1OHshJpqZKdv03aol4X9v+9KD9N84P+hUrtQHd6MuQjLvYw tB5MEIShPlsXBa6DWE2SEJ0BYvP7FkCbhMBZrZws/o/1Pxa/DLxubOKVX rRs+TMKSeqaAOf7JZ1gzDCgQcghf+isiNWjEszm0dRohqoYMS3QwUoXxK s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgYFAJY20FKtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABZgkdEgQ65T4EIFnSCJgEBBIEJAgEIRjIlAgSIF8MVF48PhDcEmBeSFYMtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,639,1384300800"; d="scan'208,217";a="293548621" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2014 18:09:35 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com [173.37.183.84]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0AI9Z2V022451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:09:35 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.19]) by xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([173.37.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:09:34 -0600 From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHPDi8dAG760ZdvgE+eZN0+ZAMENA== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:09:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.82.211.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEF593D721B42mzanatyciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:09:50 -0000 --_000_CEF593D721B42mzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My main concerns are interoperability and interworking as defined in charte= r work items 6 and 9. I have secondary concerns about inferior technology. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders both webrtc interoperability and interworking with pervasive indust= ry standards. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders both webrtc interoperability and interworking with pervasive indust= ry standards. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders both webrtc interoperability (no encoder mandated) and interworking= with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior technology. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior techn= ology. Mo --_000_CEF593D721B42mzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My main concerns are interoperability and interworking as defined in c= harter work items 6 and 9. I have secondary concerns about inferior technol= ogy.

    1. All entities MUST support H.264
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    2. All entities MUST support VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards.

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST suppo= rt at least one of H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders both webrtc interoperability and interworking with pervasive i= ndustry standards.

    6. All entities MUST support H.261
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    7. There is no MTI video codec
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders both webrtc interoperability and interworking with pervasive i= ndustry standards.

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at le= ast one of H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and M= UST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards.

    13. All entities MUST support H.263
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards.

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders both webrtc interoperability (no encoder mandated) and interwo= rking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior technology.

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Hinders interworking with pervasive industry standards. Also inferior = technology.

    Mo

    --_000_CEF593D721B42mzanatyciscocom_-- From sdhesika@cisco.com Fri Jan 10 10:13:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E849C1AE18D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:13:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YQgg_9Sdubc for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221251AE173 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:13:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=26048; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389377616; x=1390587216; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=ZOtYDOQ2dPP32WFLVvoIAW28sOFs5YPAY8xGKG/6WPg=; b=UeCesafuU6Jhcp39MPb0ejMmMtTo5Y8KEXqPeQ9eXFzaGCF8Wqgd4gus 4SOK/AiGCdaEhkGsrP2GxlSRQXt1rH9qmOvAzWzbWUSJBGYOu+eNrIwjB Qmfnrr5fD6z5Y/0WU/3nRscSgOPu7o7V9YFujdi3TkoWbDL11SWFd7kCK o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: At0GAL430FKtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABZgkdEOFawfohVgQgWdIInAQICLV4BCCIWQCYBBAEaAYd7DcMHF45XLYMvgRMEmUeQZYMtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,639,1384300800"; d="scan'208,217";a="296508144" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2014 18:13:36 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com [173.36.12.87]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0AIDZLJ018074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:13:35 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.125]) by xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com ([173.36.12.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:13:35 -0600 From: "Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)" To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives. Thread-Index: Ac8OL6t6ThtrCsmCTTGCHr2zvW8Syg== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:13:34 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.24.40] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AAD74A5C56B6A249AA8C0D3B41F869902044E126xmbalnx10ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives. X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:13:52 -0000 --_000_AAD74A5C56B6A249AA8C0D3B41F869902044E126xmbalnx10ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Interoperability with installed base is critical. Interoperability should = not requires additional burden such as deploying a farm of transcoders. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Su= pporting of H.264 is essential for interoperability with installed base. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Su= pporting of H.264 is essential for interoperability with installed base. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: No= n-support of H.264 causes an enormous burden on the Enterprises to leverage= their current video deployment. Enterprises want to add browser-based apps= but as a natural extension of their current deployment. Asking them to buy= /deploy/manage a farm of transcoders does not allow an seamless extension t= o their deployment. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Int= eroperability necessary. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base and provides high quality experience. 9. All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In= teroperability with installed base required 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base and a high quality experience. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base and a high quality experience. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUS= T support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: do= es not assure H.264, which is necessary for interoperability with an instal= led base. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 = (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec = H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 Thanks, The Chairs --_000_AAD74A5C56B6A249AA8C0D3B41F869902044E126xmbalnx10ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    1.    All entities MUST support H.= 264

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: YES

     

    2.    All entities MUST support VP= 8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: 

    Interoperability with installed base is critical.=  Interoperability should not requires additional burden such as deplo= ying a farm of transcoders.

     

    3.    All entities MUST support bo= th H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: Acceptable.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  Supporting of H.264 is essential for interoper= ability with installed base. 

     

    4.    Browsers MUST support both H= .264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: Acceptable.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  Supporting of H.264 is essential for interoper= ability with installed base. 

     

    5.    All entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  Non-support of H.264 causes an enormous burden= on the Enterprises to leverage their current video deployment. Enterprises= want to add browser-based apps but as a natural extension of their current deployment. Asking them to buy/deploy= /manage a farm of transcoders does not allow an seamless extension to their= deployment.

     

    6.    All entities MUST support H.= 261

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:

     

    7.   There is no MTI video codec

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: Interoperability necessary.

     

    8.    All entities MUST support H.= 261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8<= /p>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]:  NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base and provides high quality experienc= e.

     

    9.    All entities MUST support Th= eora

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  Interoperability with installed base required<= o:p>

     

    10.    All entities MUST implement= at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base and a high quality experience.=

     

    11.    All entities MUST implement= at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base and a high quality experience.=

     

    12.    All entities MUST support d= ecoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least = one of H.264 or VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base.

     

    13.    All entities MUST support H= .263

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: 

     

    14.    All entities MUST implement= at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]:  NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base.

     

    15.    All entities MUST support d= ecoding using Theora.

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them:  does not assure H.264, which is necessary for = interoperability with an installed base.

     

     

    16.    All entities MUST support M= otion JPEG

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptabl= e]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: 

     

    H.264 = is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/

     

    VP8 is= a reference to the propo= sal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/

     

    Theora= is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)

     

    H.263 = is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 = (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-R= EC-H.263/)

     

    H.261 = is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587

     

    Motion= JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435

     

    Thanks= ,

     

    The Ch= airs

     

    --_000_AAD74A5C56B6A249AA8C0D3B41F869902044E126xmbalnx10ciscoc_-- From roman@telurix.com Fri Jan 10 10:40:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F241AE183 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SaW8AjMKzftE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B661ADFB9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so8713232wib.3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=F8FQQTjmR3GRqeLFshoVokzYl14Bs15wPndfALP1tMk=; b=mSaXx8VYGc5FOn0dborsVAkyXcMxKPoeeZfXDRV5Ym4KG5C+kWKWNSezYoYp137nNJ p5F1BuewFOgSRdRJgP5Tu8PcPjy39muQwlOOrWiBcP/UgkSSde3/sl533K4dsyGwEAuX CATl1GC7GARH7MgARk2OZx0D2UFH7Ultj3P2onI63P6x7+OD40jvYAfPA06QzydvJ+GG 6gF3j5aqas9zckMFNLr9MCvtrdzBkNpiWCjdJICq6HS9hzkwYU62ZANIcD4T1BQc887Z AkPmTDNVgqszSbvyn98c3u7Lxa5gyZmkKWNSWZwa9g8xOuO9e6olq8cgjbHXH0Yb5u1D AYpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlBrq6ZOnQoMfGhG49ZRLg9uZ7XG7XT9KaS7xNXRlLaZwsh/fTmgmPl+Fz3BzDyirf5Kigi X-Received: by 10.180.109.107 with SMTP id hr11mr4063717wib.56.1389379225545; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com (mail-we0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ot9sm4824884wjc.0.2014.01.10.10.40.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id u56so2081294wes.26 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.103.68 with SMTP id fu4mr4088867wib.19.1389379223980; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:40:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044282521a928e04efa20f23 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Personal comments on Poll responses X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:40:38 -0000 --f46d044282521a928e04efa20f23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was staying quiet, but would you recommend that I should ask every employee in my company and my every relative to re-post my straw poll response so that my personal opinion will drawn every other input on the list? From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw responses lately. _____________ Roman Shpount On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across the > line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the motives > of the respondents. We understand that this may be frustrating, but we > need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or > attacks. Please refrain from anything which might be considered a > comment on the person making the poll response. > > thanks, > > Ted, Cullen, and Magnus > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --f46d044282521a928e04efa20f23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I was staying quiet, but would you recommend that I should= ask every employee in my company and my every relative to re-post my straw= poll response so that my personal opinion will drawn every other input on = the list? From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in st= raw responses lately.

    _____________
    Roman Sh= pount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Ted Ha= rdie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across= the line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the moti= ves of the respondents.=A0 We understand that this may be frustrating, but = we need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or attack= s.=A0=A0=A0 Please refrain from anything which might be considered a commen= t on the person making the poll response.

    = thanks,

    Ted, Cullen, and Magnus

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --f46d044282521a928e04efa20f23-- From roman@telurix.com Fri Jan 10 10:53:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2321AE09F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4n4E88SkV4zI for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com (mail-we0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F921ADFF3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u57so4302322wes.0 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Fc3+xx1XuXDpZ9WooT2jz4oxGNXZWnGYbLRoc9K7SNw=; b=kbRNkZK8YYLWRskl0SchxXTXPt5RI4s0zut+KNULx1NWZIznsB2xt4sNCwzfVuSPnf qrz3k3W07X0Ai8KTDrowCaqWr7pcPOFwkqZ4Wd6O651+Ljp0jYBRLBxocPXyXbILQi5M XarbsJYSoy9zwD5uyPhBq2P//c5PccVrG2sXZ1JXzCQ4w/eAG/on8ZfwXGzyski9YAgO r0yDRxcQ1Zpg8MQAZFv0D3OAWvgr7OjXmfiaV898ryoPuRYZXAu2/M3npjBJeRVWS9rn cQfi/slAHb27+E6Kmwr8B98bPtN1ZUgcx+1wGNdTzTweuY9a6tVbFUlRMtcqmwNkDrZm H+3A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl3MZEKdtYlEIsixY2Fl1x0nMKOQdgXxe2kA6kr5SMIOU96by39tyuNYuDEmACMPIdULWDT X-Received: by 10.194.78.79 with SMTP id z15mr10156562wjw.15.1389379993419; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kr10sm4856557wjc.22.2014.01.10.10.53.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so8727681wib.3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.222.38 with SMTP id qj6mr10120333wjc.66.1389379992150; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:53:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1b73ae3eb3104efa23c6e Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:53:26 -0000 --001a11c1b73ae3eb3104efa23c6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to an IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264 licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop, is irrelevant (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fairly large group of people having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not supporting WebRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implementation block. Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the issues (like what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears). This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all the arguments for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good electrons. _____________ Roman Shpount --001a11c1b73ae3eb3104efa23c6e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on thi= s list that there is a substantial group of people here that will never agr= ee to an IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264= licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MT= I. Arguing about all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop,=A0is= irrelevant (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). = For a fairly large group of people having H.264 as MTI video codec will tra= nslate into either ignoring this part of specification or not supporting We= bRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implementation blo= ck. Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the is= sues (like what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears).

    This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video= MTI, they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing = this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents= convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we wou= ld most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person = argue for it to become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, a= ll the arguments for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good electrons.
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
    --001a11c1b73ae3eb3104efa23c6e-- From juberti@google.com Fri Jan 10 10:53:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639331AE1B4 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id js_4VPRZ7Lcm for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506581ADFF3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oz11so3716140veb.4 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZfDt04aoruq/O4CIHLPsqSJ9fFC2bpGRpwVbrOvgaCg=; b=kwSun45RR8LN9A7v+bXpBDUv0aad7vdHas/MqCcrPJyQ+YL/kDYFXB5XdwzeNOuuAw JnWzu5zikHVPzVFB94Ww01vimt6JW9q9nkKf4galg+XvreZXfK6iRjaQoWpuukOviwsQ rRb3r9diTnV0iJzPs5I3W9peoKT9poa6gHlr5yVbZmMy5yRvpGKuscnei2J119lI/txs cd92p//T6WVWdmLgmnV4IIZZjZpRzH9PcwsSTngU7G+RMIArFu/jMhTERGWZk4EsBNWd WzHF6ZwYVA9tUHJg3b6liqKUAM9BSNjxYZEexWmJgK3MImeGrhJYy0haaHgpE7NnDnu7 iNhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZfDt04aoruq/O4CIHLPsqSJ9fFC2bpGRpwVbrOvgaCg=; b=Cek8l/9AV+PlYl2lpjDmJnb+jVbGu36jEqHExGIrHqckX1Ji7JwJe2VC7BdP9hNM20 kDVzJtFHn0qDHALnqG+jy4um5eQGxSg9sKWTpFktQ/zSryebjRWMJFAlERB1s8FtEAMX icUPFUN4O0YkN8uiIzh3KyPm4FriroA6DTrwkNS/eCBUc1QyekRxGxUPCorsw41SVca9 8DiFRV//rLTgiMxR8SMgJf0ug78ki97hVgHZROtBVcCaM2xvyoN31RwP+Mu0wKZ4OPwU X33GG7WYqWavABTyBeyBZ4mWQTQmVpXku3BKK18oUEBNyuuUL9HU76olah0bi4sUgoKC nZ1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmH9IRLAhpIwJ3Ucxvvt9LOd+JOKfT/GHN14Yz/+rAGhhjtBNGYC255XEAjNlo/mmiM+IuytgpQ8CKijZE9lkAT2uT7Kl6UbkQUtipNOwMW6F5qDGKNap9O2KgUuq3kJqwDucvyRkW/8NuVSTh3R6JJNW5R+J0GcF1mRiK2xk9pa7lGQmev+9JWeWcju31dWBHBb3mA X-Received: by 10.58.219.1 with SMTP id pk1mr2189827vec.49.1389380007104; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.53.74 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Justin Uberti Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:53:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jeremy Fuller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bea2e0ac82a1b04efa23dc0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy Fuller) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:53:43 -0000 --047d7bea2e0ac82a1b04efa23dc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, thanks. Wasn't sure if it was intentional or not. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Jeremy Fuller w= rote: > Hi Justin, > > > > Apologies if I followed the wrong convention, --- means I make no comment > against this question. Using this marking was an attempt to indicate ther= e > was deliberate absence of information, rather than I accidently missed ou= t > answering the question. > > > > Regards, > Jeremy > > > > *From:* Justin Uberti [mailto:juberti@google.com] > *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:56 > *To:* Jeremy Fuller > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy > Fuller) > > > > How should one interpret the "---" answer to #2? > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jeremy Fuller > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Here is my input: > > > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > > > [The significant volume of existing deployments of H.264 will provide > early benefit if this is selected as the mandatory to implement video cod= ec] > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *---* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Offers little in terms of guaranteed interoperability > > > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a consensus let us allow the market to > decide and move on] > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Unclear of the value of this over option 6. > > > > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUS= T > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > > > > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > > > > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > > > b. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Increases costs while not allowing for optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Cl= owest > common denominator=E2=80=9D > > > > > > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > > > > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > Concerns over performance and existing market support. > > > > > > Regards, > > Jeremy Fuller > > GENBAND > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > --047d7bea2e0ac82a1b04efa23dc0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    OK, thanks. Wasn't sure if it was intentional or not.<= /div>


    On Fri, = Jan 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Jeremy Fuller <jeremy.fuller@genband.com<= /a>> wrote:

    Hi Justin,

    =C2=A0

    Apologies if I followed t= he wrong convention, --- means I make no comment against this question. Usi= ng this marking was an attempt to indicate there was deliberate absence of information, rather than I accidently missed out answering the = question.

    =C2=A0

    Regards,
    Jeremy

    =C2=A0

    From: Justin Uberti [mailto:juberti@google.com]
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:56
    To: Jeremy Fuller
    Cc: rtcweb@ietf= .org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Jeremy= Fuller)

    =C2=A0

    How should one interpret the "---" answer = to #2?

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jeremy Fuller <<= a href=3D"mailto:jeremy.fuller@genband.com" target=3D"_blank">jeremy.fuller= @genband.com> wrote:

    Hi,

    =C2=A0

    Here is my input:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support H.264

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor o= f this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    =C2=A0

    [The significant volume of existing dep= loyments of H.264 will provide early benefit if this is selected as the man= datory to implement video codec]

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

    2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this= option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ---

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support both H.264 and VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Browsers MUST supp= ort both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 a= nd VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    5.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Offers little in terms of guaranteed in= teroperability

    =C2=A0

    6.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support H.261

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Concerns over performance and existing = market support.

    =C2=A0

    7.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is no MTI vi= deo codec

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

    [Not ideal, but if we cannot reach a co= nsensus let us allow the market to decide and move on]=

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    8.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Unclear of the value of this over optio= n 6.

    =C2=A0

    9.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST = support Theora

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Concerns over performance and existing = market support.

    =C2=A0

    10.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement a= t least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Increases costs while not allowing for = optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D<= u>

    =C2=A0

    11.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement a= t least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Increases costs while not allowing for = optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D<= u>

    =C2=A0

    12.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support dec= oding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least on= e of H.264 or VP8

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Increases costs while not allowing for = optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D<= u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    13.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.2= 63

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Concerns over performance and existing = market support.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    14.=C2=A0 All entities MUST implement a= t least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Increases costs while not allowing for = optimised handling of a =E2=80=9Clowest common denominator=E2=80=9D<= u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    15.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support dec= oding using Theora.

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Concerns over performance and existing = market support.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    16.=C2=A0 All entities MUST support Mot= ion JPEG

    =C2=A0

    a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

    =C2=A0

    b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any ob= jections to this option, if so please summarize them:<= /p>

    Concerns over performance and existing = market support.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Jeremy Fuller

    GENBAND

    =C2=A0


    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    =C2=A0


    --047d7bea2e0ac82a1b04efa23dc0-- From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 11:00:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A6B1AE11F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEBvQ1euxtry for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x22b.google.com (mail-bk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07A71AE075 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id mz12so1681851bkb.2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gnvuY/i/bxAfBERq+m3NesUxsIxX0TMVkXejJ/uG130=; b=yKA078WO/S4ssBnx68+v4H2Q0x/24FUM1gng2FbmYh0zx/9Mf8napPjGOdXpAitjYu OCPEwvkm07hhnqWj8qoiydLRJ1lti1cO70tMDf0ZVQ3ZtW2C/jMsXaXEBOM6OxY6r2EN M12LkAJC3VL4IMPp2hCzzdUU+WfK4hCth7G8bXNF8Csdd0cbEww/DT5f1RqNZz5YRajH HesRJYehfS4MiIsATSuPiOQ5jUAICwnQXqRaCFUBcnZgfxI84K980w823N6FQrLLTiRz bPJovenRYd3jdCFHi2mIT4400Z1l/WEVWW9zwgl74Jl/0ulhmlemcoFW96sBXSUd1eZ3 2b0A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.205.23.132 with SMTP id ra4mr3137802bkb.66.1389380405335; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:05 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:00:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:00:05 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: asgMdfTCXvWDBSDmokgRXSptqF4 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: cowwoc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:00:18 -0000 On 10 January 2014 17:39, cowwoc wrote: > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC= to > interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only= ? > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they > look backwards and not forwards. > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old > technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could li= ve > with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little b= it > surprised that your are part of them. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using > *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available o= n > both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > Use H.261, or > Transcode, or > Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to > either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple= as > compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. = You > don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. Note: https://github.com/Vproject/p64 (master) is currently 2 commits behind https://github.com/maikmerten/p64 (master) > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather = to > the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythi= ng > else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important wh= en > breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does= ). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-fr= ee. > +1 - Herv=E9 From matthew.kaufman@skype.net Fri Jan 10 11:11:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948EC1AE1AE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:11:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K9q87wPO9gPb for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0203.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.203]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544B21AE0E2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from DM2PR03CA007.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.52.155) by BN1PR03MB283.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.200.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.13; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:07 +0000 Received: from BL2FFO11FD018.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c09::126) by DM2PR03CA007.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:2414::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.13 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:07 +0000 Received: from mail.microsoft.com (131.107.125.37) by BL2FFO11FD018.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.173.161.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.12 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:06 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC295.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.1.6]) by TK5EX14HUBC101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.7.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.002; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:10:31 +0000 From: "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" To: Roman Shpount , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI Thread-Index: AQHPDjVHeTGZzB5nvkqIQ1NwaUeID5p+T01A Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:10:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.74] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195E339TK5EX14MBXC295r_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.37; CTRY:US; IPV:NLI; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(189002)(199002)(377454003)(19580395003)(80022001)(63696002)(66066001)(33656001)(83322001)(20776003)(80976001)(65816001)(85806002)(6806004)(2656002)(19580405001)(71186001)(59766001)(90146001)(84326002)(53806001)(77982001)(54356001)(92726001)(93136001)(92566001)(51856001)(16236675002)(69226001)(54316002)(81342001)(74876001)(74366001)(46102001)(81686001)(15975445006)(77096001)(55846006)(83072002)(76786001)(15202345003)(87936001)(79102001)(76796001)(85306002)(81542001)(76482001)(74706001)(56816005)(87266001)(44976005)(19300405004)(50986001)(56776001)(47736001)(49866001)(512954002)(47976001)(4396001)(81816001)(85852003)(74502001)(74662001)(31966008)(47446002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN1PR03MB283; H:mail.microsoft.com; CLIP:131.107.125.37; FPR:; RD:InfoDomainNonexistent; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; X-O365ENT-EOP-Header: Message processed by - O365_ENT: Allow from ranges (Engineering ONLY) X-Forefront-PRVS: 00872B689F X-OriginatorOrg: skype.net Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:25 -0000 --_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195E339TK5EX14MBXC295r_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a little of = the language used in the below and have it also be true. For your convenience using [] to delete and "" to add: I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that there= is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to [an IPR lic= ense fee encumbered video codec] "a codec developed outside of a recognized= standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations" as an MTI. So, = unless [H.264 licensing policy] "the IPR risk associated with shipping VP8"= changes, [H.264] "VP8" will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguin= g about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy interop,] "VP8, like = the readily available single implementation with no associated license fees= " is irrelevant (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anywa= y). For [a fairly large group of people] "quite a few people, including at = least two major browser vendors" having [H.264] "VP8" as MTI video codec wi= ll translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not support= ing WebRTC. [H.264] "VP8" codec support is a hard and uncircumventable impl= ementation block. "(in both cases because of the lawyers, not the engineers= )" Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the iss= ues (like what happens if [Cisco] "Google" changes policy or disappears). This being said, if [H.264] "VP8" proponents want it to be the video MTI, t= hey should work on [changing the licensing policy,] "developing their video= codec specifications within a recognized standards organization and making= multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk through inde= mnification" not on convincing this group that [H.264] "VP8" is great. [I w= ould even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to c= hange IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbere= d H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT. But,= until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the arguments for [H.264] "any = MTI video codec for RTCWEB" are a waste of perfectly good electrons. Matthew Kaufman From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that there= is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to an IPR lice= nse fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264 licensing policy= changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about = all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop, is irrelevant (I thin= k most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fairly large = group of people having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into either = ignoring this part of specification or not supporting WebRTC. H.264 codec s= upport is a hard and uncircumventable implementation block. Binary download= offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the issues (like what hap= pens if Cisco changes policy or disappears). This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they shou= ld work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this group that= H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced thei= r own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely = have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to= become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all the argument= s for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good electrons. _____________ Roman Shpount --_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195E339TK5EX14MBXC295r_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a little = of the language used in the below and have it also be true.

     <= /p>

    For your convenience usin= g [] to delete and “” to add:

     <= /p>

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to [an IPR license fee encumbered video codec] “a codec deve= loped outside of a recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations” as an MTI. So, unle= ss [H.264 licensing policy] “the IPR risk associated with shipping VP= 8” changes, [H.264] “VP8” will never get consensus as vid= eo codec MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy interop,] “VP8, like the readily available single implem= entation with no associated license fees” is irrelevant (I think= most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For [a fairly large = group of people] “quite a few people, including at least two major browser vendors” having [H.264] “VP8” as= MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specifica= tion or not supporting WebRTC. [H.264] “VP8” codec support is a= hard and uncircumventable implementation block. “(in both cases because of the lawyers, not the engineers)” Binary download offer he= lps quite a bit but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [= Cisco] “Google” changes policy or disappears).

     

    This being said, if [H.264] “VP8” propon= ents want it to be the video MTI, they should work on [changing the licensi= ng policy,] “developing their video codec specifications within a rec= ognized standards organization and making multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk through indemnification” not on= convincing this group that [H.264] “VP8” is great. [I would ev= en argue that if H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to change I= PR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to bec= ome an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the arguments f= or [H.264] “any MTI video codec for RTCWEB” are a waste of perf= ectly good electrons.

     

    Matthew Kaufman

     <= /p>

    From: rtcweb= [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
    Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI

     

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to an IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless= H.264 licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about all the other b= enefits of H.264, like legacy interop, is irrelevant (I think most of = the people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fairly large group of p= eople having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not supp= orting WebRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implement= ation block. Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address a= ll the issues (like what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears).

     

    This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be t= he video MTI, they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on con= vincing this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 pr= oponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencu= mbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT.= But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all the arguments for H.264 are= a waste of perfectly good electrons.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount

    --_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195E339TK5EX14MBXC295r_-- From derhoermi@gmx.net Fri Jan 10 11:15:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2A01AE07A for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JJD379ROONzN for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1D1AE077 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.54.74]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MB1C4-1WBdBN1aho-009wdB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:15:13 +0100 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Roman Shpount Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:15:15 +0100 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:4bjHhNOjbZQGNY0S+D2pyA3tV9luWYKpXYLFlpqhxvFZCKPOhn6 FA67iLJ0w2ceRg3T9OUyZjQxpcaKrOGVe5qjEizJqLymEy+BmpHr9rWYQAAKLV6JxcuKDUq OL0QkPSEVCde8gGwVSf12l+nDDH+twIZ93Smd/1mmSfe6x/nTp0Hsilw8QlN0DUZLSzyHe6 mollxcKzPW6FZJbkQPyuQ== Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Personal comments on Poll responses X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:15:28 -0000 * Roman Shpount wrote: >I was staying quiet, but would you recommend that I should ask every >employee in my company and my every relative to re-post my straw poll >response so that my personal opinion will drawn every other input on the >list? From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw >responses lately. The Chairs are very able to recognise, for instance, responses to the straw poll from people who have not previously contributed to the WG's work and take that into consideration when evaluating them. The poll closes this weekend, I think it would be best if we let people respond as they see fit undisturbed. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From michael.gorham@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 11:06:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528C61AE1CE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:06:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FRHU5MC8TDbF for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x230.google.com (mail-pd0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFDA1AE1AD for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id r10so962461pdi.35 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:06:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=X97SUxMlhZHYFe0TOME4q6t4cyWxUkHHm/lbStVVHhg=; b=bEodB29E570jG7YzOb+Y3wE+JZh9E+7Bv4LqQlnQ3whU9lUB4jrcBnmxYQ+Yb399oZ 07HGgBiP6ECIuC5KUXWB9fZoU9kpvh5RNlKdXzr9YJOTsC7v1A+sZjUHorXJ4oHA2RQc jY1xdf+xEFFYw1EVZ4hAGPAwWYRj50Hz2/eV7gL8kXZYYLJ+rmb073dgFdrEa8RLIY8n K3R5ugkKECc1KoHKtCVVm6l4+bi6+3PQ/ivQQRkt5sAgxM6vcW26PyQGfj+2JdcXaqvJ bN8AiPdlUTcvJd6Hu8dAOFSdWNqUxgagXtnQwQP5Q97QzL1eXMWjPIpqT7if3U9GTqsx 5RKw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.217.133 with SMTP id oy5mr13664518pac.46.1389380760103; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:06:00 -0800 (PST) Sender: michael.gorham@gmail.com Received: by 10.70.42.135 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:05:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:05:59 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: uLsXZtKn2RLIgI-7HFbwxpL3qpQ Message-ID: From: Michael Gorham To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5da891a9f2ed04efa26a85 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:18:18 -0000 --047d7b5da891a9f2ed04efa26a85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Too many IPR/licensing issues. Changes to a "Yes" if the H.264 baseline profile actually becomes royalty-free.* 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *IPR/licensing issues **issues**.* 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *IPR/licensing issues **issues**.* 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *IPR/licensing issues **issues AND **would require transcoding in certain use cases.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality.* 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *This may not allow interoperability**. A MTI video codec is imperative for this day and age.* 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality of H.261**.* 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality of H.261** and H.264 l**icensing issues**.* 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *See 5b.* 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Acceptable, given there are no **IPR/licensing issues **decoding H.264.* 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Licensing situation for H.263 is unclear. Yes, if no * *IPR/licensing issues**.* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *See 9.b.* 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Poor quality.* --047d7b5da891a9f2ed04efa26a85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    1. All entities MUST support H.264
    =A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acc= eptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Too many IPR/licensi= ng=A0issues. Changes to a "Yes" if the H.264 baseline profile act= ually becomes royalty-free.

    2. All entities MUST s= upport VP8
    = =A0 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Yes
    =A0 b. Do you ha= ve any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this opti= on [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
    IP= R/licensing=A0issues=A0issues.

    4. Bro= wsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least= one of H.264 and VP8
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do = you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    <= div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> IPR/licensing=A0issues=A0issues.

    5. All entities MUST supp= ort at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =A0 a.=A0Are you= in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0
    IPR/licensing= =A0issues=A0issues AND=A0would require transcoding in certain= use cases.

    6. All= entities MUST support H.261
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptab= le]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you = have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0
    Poor quality.

    7. There is no MTI vid= eo codec
    = =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you = have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0
    This may not al= low interoperability. A MTI video codec is imperative for this day a= nd age.

    8. All entities MUST s= upport H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =A0 a.=A0Are you= in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0
    Poor quality = of H.261.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/A= cceptable]:=A0Acceptable
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:=A0
    10. All = entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
    =A0 a.=A0Are you= in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0
    Poor quality = of H.261=A0and H.264 licensing=A0issues.

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
    =A0 a.=A0Are you i= n favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
    Se= e 5b.
    <= br>
    12. All entities= MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding = using at least one of H.264 or VP8
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptab= le
    =A0 = b.=A0Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= :
    Acceptable, given there are no=A0IPR/licensing=A0issues=A0= decoding H.264.

    13. All entities MUST support H.263
    =A0 a.=A0Are you= in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Licensing situa= tion for H.263 is unclear. =A0Yes, if no=A0IPR/licensing=A0issues.

    14. All entities MUST = implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do = you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    <= div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> See 9.b.

    1= 5. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptab= le
    =A0 = b.=A0Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= :=A0

    16. All entities MUST = support Motion JPEG
    =A0 a.=A0Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No
    =A0 b.=A0Do = you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    <= div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> Poor quality.

    --047d7b5da891a9f2ed04efa26a85-- From dhc@dcrocker.net Fri Jan 10 11:20:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82471AE1B5 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HoHr6FfH7Xe for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69C61AE1BC for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0AJK6SI016978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:09 -0800 Message-ID: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:18:25 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:20:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:20:21 -0000 > if you want to restrict > WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old > features only? My impression is that the above point could indicate a very basic point of confusion amongst a number of participants. The issue is the difference between minimal, guaranteed interoperability, versus maximum possible capabilities. The statement seems to be concerned about permitting maximum capabilities, whereas Mandatory to Implement is usually for ensuring the first goal of basic interoperability. That is, it seeks to ensure that any two participants can achieve basic, useful interoperation. When there is a negotiation mechanism, that is the way to then get mutual agreement to do something more capable. Whether to interoperate with legacy systems is a common, strategic decisions. It is hugely important and often affects success of an effort. On the average, Internet protocols have tended to try quite hard to permit interoperation with legacy systems, where possible. This has often been a challenge, and often has slowed down adoption of newer features. These hassles are balanced against getting a larger base of initial users more easily. The problem with ignoring the installed base of legacy users is the danger that they will continue using their legacy services and not switch to the wonderful new service. Creators of wonderful new services often underestimate the switching barrier that impedes those legacy users. By contrast, defining things in a way that is friendly to legacy users, while permitting a negotiation path to higher capabilities, is often successful at seducing those users, over time, to try out the more capable features. Unless I've entirely misunderstood the design of webRTC, the intent is (or can be and should be) to support basic, legacy interoperation, while permitting negotiation up to newer and more wonderful capabilities. For that model, what's most important about the core MTI requirements is that they permit maximum degree of interoperability; where possible that should include legacy systems. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ted.ietf@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 11:41:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8F11AE165 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:41:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FxWQMjrBJXvU for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x233.google.com (mail-ie0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C321AE072 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x13so5709836ief.10 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:40:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=IV3V6JmZa4X6M44m9AfxhjCAMv+6GQj6hkUAstJeKF8=; b=kmqvBzw+7T34GBsXiR6eplL5UYDCZDvdCnvMQ61bC/TtvxF1Fo4a4lFk34wp2HJc5/ j50DSTCatIZIc6y1AsT1fM24fB2+V6T+J4ZEF9DRNXMi3oYod3IQTMPWtgiYcZpH0/+2 XopO882VBT+NveebzGNvxpOrvQV8nAxu2IqPRR030ut46lHrE6eunzZaUUYjjf60dQlr lC54JS+yul91uyJY4de9YjUwVNJRXlWwlMt5fPpAdkNGD36+CD4kztNvkDpfVujWO2rY XzDsrmAjS46koQ3pbjqhEoAwlFjqLtosnjvYZwL+4keivVlZ1FSrxFZeRlhqbZgWKXYw sHlA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.3 with SMTP id lo3mr5429642igb.30.1389382855084; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.104.130 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:40:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:40:55 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: Roman Shpount Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160c4b088d29d04efa2e72a Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Personal comments on Poll responses X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:41:07 -0000 --089e0160c4b088d29d04efa2e72a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Roman Shpount wrote: > I was staying quiet, but would you recommend that I should ask every > employee in my company and my every relative to re-post my straw poll > response so that my personal opinion will drawn every other input on the > list? > I assume this was "drown", rather than drawn. No, I would not recommend this. best regards, Ted Hardie > From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw > responses lately. > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > >> A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across the >> line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the motives >> of the respondents. We understand that this may be frustrating, but we >> need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or >> attacks. Please refrain from anything which might be considered a >> comment on the person making the poll response. >> >> thanks, >> >> Ted, Cullen, and Magnus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > --089e0160c4b088d29d04efa2e72a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:40 A= M, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
    I was staying quiet, but wo= uld you recommend that I should ask every employee in my company and my eve= ry relative to re-post my straw poll response so that my personal opinion w= ill drawn every other input on the list?

    I assume this was "drown", rather than drawn.=A0 No, = I would not recommend this.

    best regards,

    Ted Hardie
    =A0
    From my highly su= bjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw responses lately.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2= 014 at 12:11 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    =
    A number of recen= t comments on straw poll responses have gone across the line from asking qu= estions about the responses to questioning the motives of the respondents.= =A0 We understand that this may be frustrating, but we need to maintain a t= echnical focus and avoid personal comments or attacks.=A0=A0=A0 Please refr= ain from anything which might be considered a comment on the person making = the poll response.

    thanks,

    Ted, Cull= en, and Magnus

    _________________________________________= ______
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    --089e0160c4b088d29d04efa2e72a-- From roman@telurix.com Fri Jan 10 11:58:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC91B1ADEBF for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WI9TRd-ojt7m for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f48.google.com (mail-la0-f48.google.com [209.85.215.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748301AE10C for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f48.google.com with SMTP id n7so3565960lam.35 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eGeVsOBOzq/fTKdz5iG1YZFgFqtQEg4QlyAO7DsM8L8=; b=hX1WQOf0lzEz8NNqe5CVozlSOiJB6FIOpqJ9LWGKtgH5+Z4aoduTMlUUtpzg95w5eo JGZ5z2YzIwB/iO0SlZ/0LuM/1XwZhKz8pqwBmNxdK8WvMoBudJl/r4HcSofK9V4Si3M6 vb5StaWUk9jycrg2At2WFAuk+J7NKO/8ADNVb15rOb2bzGWTJNYTpIuYrlN/puu8YlQQ 8/9zhpH3bimYnwAdo1eCjFoZJuKufBWGUr0g5e9MpsBsbn8cl1tC0yvgrQNJFq+V/xhC g6wLd5vjtMY/pAbvEyEQPZIIHOSZ54fmeAaP+EAzeWgw74Hl34ZTpWGZ1HORiw7bQnJm 1vRw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm0s6x0IGpzLc1Bug4N5giShViNUJFihCoCTYC8v+g7+kr8Mp6bBwDEx+hv6/45hzes7Ts8 X-Received: by 10.112.201.167 with SMTP id kb7mr4307757lbc.32.1389383883788; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f43.google.com (mail-la0-f43.google.com [209.85.215.43]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e10sm5049795laa.6.2014.01.10.11.58.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f43.google.com with SMTP id n7so3567328lam.16 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.22.131 with SMTP id d3mr4608789laf.52.1389383882744; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.170.225 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:58:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:58:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158b866c9a78004efa324c4 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Personal comments on Poll responses X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:58:17 -0000 --089e0158b866c9a78004efa324c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You are correct, it is "drown" and I was not actually planning on doing this. _____________ Roman Shpount On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Roman Shpount wrote: > >> I was staying quiet, but would you recommend that I should ask every >> employee in my company and my every relative to re-post my straw poll >> response so that my personal opinion will drawn every other input on the >> list? >> > > I assume this was "drown", rather than drawn. No, I would not recommend > this. > > best regards, > > Ted Hardie > > > >> From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw >> responses lately. >> >> _____________ >> Roman Shpount >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >> >>> A number of recent comments on straw poll responses have gone across the >>> line from asking questions about the responses to questioning the motives >>> of the respondents. We understand that this may be frustrating, but we >>> need to maintain a technical focus and avoid personal comments or >>> attacks. Please refrain from anything which might be considered a >>> comment on the person making the poll response. >>> >>> thanks, >>> >>> Ted, Cullen, and Magnus >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >>> >> > --089e0158b866c9a78004efa324c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    You are correct, it is "drown" and I was not act= ually planning on doing this.=A0

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Ted Har= die <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Fri, Jan 1= 0, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote= :
    I was staying quiet, but wo= uld you recommend that I should ask every employee in my company and my eve= ry relative to re-post my straw poll response so that my personal opinion w= ill drawn every other input on the list?

    I assu= me this was "drown", rather than drawn.=A0 No, I would not recomm= end this.

    best regards,

    Ted Hardie

    =A0
    = From my highly subjective opinon this seems to be the trend in straw respo= nses lately.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:11 = PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    A number of recen= t comments on straw poll responses have gone across the line from asking qu= estions about the responses to questioning the motives of the respondents.= =A0 We understand that this may be frustrating, but we need to maintain a t= echnical focus and avoid personal comments or attacks.=A0=A0=A0 Please refr= ain from anything which might be considered a comment on the person making = the poll response.

    thanks,

    Ted, Cull= en, and Magnus

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




    --089e0158b866c9a78004efa324c4-- From roman@telurix.com Fri Jan 10 12:14:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE88A1AE1F9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TK0Vm5gmm6eL for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF721AE1F7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w7so3668125lbi.38 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2CLx6dwj3yxnlG9UGWkj8Y3Bp7C4sGL5eAVjgvkN9VI=; b=U3IS6WLaPzUOg07+4Pw+1ttf0F6HSqbl9PBxkKgg2xsHyFDvY31hZyBcqO0Nq82hCe fYQze2OtlTlvb6vSAd631wSNIRyD5BPboHw8VCksqHNysP19NWKnANlpjjMo5jkYDIF1 5ZA9EkYnVWAFclDGImSsDJ4vS5oScNEXQPkyqj7jW0gMTKDHtIcKC8nBpyD90SXdAtmR 7agaGRgdCJkgA6sFYuU7pIZ80apCpR3Of56Vw4Hg/DqYCiXikp5XekQeZf7c/1sr0lCy VE2VpDSdko7Lnekg7Z9poM78PlqTSTrGJkWuLTVR86CePO3wEhLfZZY9U6fOYEH9HydB FRUg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnInlr0Ftd9FXrIkn4ztD7fjJuMyb92jHeFrNdRa6qpITxOpt6S+z2YyhA3IP/lcUUw0Sqa X-Received: by 10.152.115.130 with SMTP id jo2mr4715822lab.2.1389384844843; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f173.google.com (mail-lb0-f173.google.com [209.85.217.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sd11sm5082050lab.2.2014.01.10.12.14.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f173.google.com with SMTP id y6so1816720lbh.18 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.180.35 with SMTP id dl3mr4691893lac.66.1389384843449; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.170.225 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:14:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11345a7a0cd9f104efa35e64 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:14:22 -0000 --001a11345a7a0cd9f104efa35e64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would agree to everything your said, and this is the reason I listed VP8 in my straw poll response only as "acceptable" (unlike H.264, my lawyers find VP8 high but manageable risk). Also, as far as, I know there is an effort to standardize VP8 within a recognized standards organization (ISO). If this process is successfully completed it would probably change VP8 codec from "acceptable" to "yes" for me. _____________ Roman Shpount On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) < matthew.kaufman@skype.net> wrote: > Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a little > of the language used in the below and have it also be true. > > > > For your convenience using [] to delete and =93=94 to add: > > > > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that > there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to [an > IPR license fee encumbered video codec] =93a codec developed outside of a > recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations=94 a= s an > MTI. So, unless [H.264 licensing policy] =93the IPR risk associated with > shipping VP8=94 changes, [H.264] =93VP8=94 will never get consensus as vi= deo > codec MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy > interop,] =93VP8, like the readily available single implementation with n= o > associated license fees=94 is irrelevant (I think most of the people on t= he > list agree to them anyway). For [a fairly large group of people] =93quite= a > few people, including at least two major browser vendors=94 having [H.264= ] > =93VP8=94 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this par= t of > specification or not supporting WebRTC. [H.264] =93VP8=94 codec support i= s a > hard and uncircumventable implementation block. =93(in both cases because= of > the lawyers, not the engineers)=94 Binary download offer helps quite a bi= t > but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [Cisco] =93Goog= le=94 > changes policy or disappears). > > > > This being said, if [H.264] =93VP8=94 proponents want it to be the video = MTI, > they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] =93developing their > video codec specifications within a recognized standards organization and > making multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk > through indemnification=94 not on convincing this group that [H.264] =93V= P8=94 is > great. [I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced their own > companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have > the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to > become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the > arguments for [H.264] =93any MTI video codec for RTCWEB=94 are a waste of > perfectly good electrons. > > > > Matthew Kaufman > > > > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman > Shpount > *Sent:* Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI > > > > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that > there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to an I= PR > license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264 licensing > policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguin= g > about all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop, is irrelevant > (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fair= ly > large group of people having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into > either ignoring this part of specification or not supporting WebRTC. H.26= 4 > codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implementation block. Binary > download offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the issues (lik= e > what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears). > > > > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they > should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this grou= p > that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convince= d > their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most > likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue > for it to become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all t= he > arguments for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good electrons. > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > --001a11345a7a0cd9f104efa35e64 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I would agree to everything your said, and this is the rea= son I listed VP8 in my straw poll response only as "acceptable" (= unlike H.264, my lawyers find VP8 high but manageable risk). Also, as far a= s, I know there is an effort to standardize VP8 within a recognized standar= ds organization (ISO). If this process is successfully completed it would p= robably change VP8 codec from "acceptable" to "yes" for= me.


    <= br clear=3D"all">
    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Matthew= Kaufman (SKYPE) <matthew.kaufman@skype.net> wrote:<= br>

    Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and twe= ak only a little of the language used in the below and have it also be true= .

    =A0<= /p>

    For your convenience usin= g [] to delete and =93=94 to add:

    =A0<= /p>

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to [an IPR license fee encumbered video codec] =93a codec develope= d outside of a recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations=94 as an MTI. So, unless [= H.264 licensing policy] =93the IPR risk associated with shipping VP8=94 cha= nges, [H.264] =93VP8=94 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguin= g about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy interop,] =93VP8, like the readily available single implementa= tion with no associated license fees=94=A0is irrelevant (I think most of th= e people on the list agree to them anyway). For [a fairly large group of pe= ople] =93quite a few people, including at least two major browser vendors=94 having [H.264] =93VP8=94 as MTI video c= odec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not = supporting WebRTC. [H.264] =93VP8=94 codec support is a hard and uncircumve= ntable implementation block. =93(in both cases because of the lawyers, not the engineers)=94 Binary download offer helps = quite a bit but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [Cisc= o] =93Google=94 changes policy or disappears).

    =A0

    This being said, if [H.264] =93VP8=94 proponents wan= t it to be the video MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing polic= y,] =93developing their video codec specifications within a recognized stan= dards organization and making multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk through indemnification=94 not on con= vincing this group that [H.264] =93VP8=94 is great. [I would even argue tha= t if H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy re= garding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to bec= ome an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the arguments f= or [H.264] =93any MTI video codec for RTCWEB=94 are a waste of perfectly go= od electrons.

    =A0

    Matthew Kaufman

    =A0<= /p>

    From: rtcweb= [mailto:rtcwe= b-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
    Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf= .org
    Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI

    =A0

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to an IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless= H.264 licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about all the other b= enefits of H.264, like legacy interop,=A0is irrelevant (I think most of the= people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fairly large group of peop= le having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not supp= orting WebRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implement= ation block. Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address a= ll the issues (like what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears).

    =A0

    This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be t= he video MTI, they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on con= vincing this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 pr= oponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencu= mbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT.= But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all the arguments for H.264 are= a waste of perfectly good electrons.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    --001a11345a7a0cd9f104efa35e64-- From jonathan@vidyo.com Fri Jan 10 12:36:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C801AE18E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:36:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdS_r-J31wAE for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209c.appriver.com [8.31.233.118]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BAA1AE02E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:35:59 -0800 (PST) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 1/10/2014 3:35:48 PM X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Primary: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-80/SG:2 1/10/2014 3:34:50 PM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 162.209.16.214, Ugly c=0.824783 p=-0.973262 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-10599-c X-Note-419: 624.02 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1345 of 1345 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1345/SG:1 1/10/2014 3:35:39 PM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNKNOWN->LOCAL X-Note-Sending-IP: 162.209.16.214 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: X-Note-Return-Path: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G327 G328 G329 G330 G334 G335 G445 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [162.209.16.214] (HELO mail.vidyo.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.2) with ESMTPS id 88225492 for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:35:48 -0500 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::250:56ff:fe85:4a71%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:35:47 -0600 From: Jonathan Lennox To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOHxNjKWCrr5UGPQJlHhxL5A5p/AaIA Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:35:46 +0000 Message-ID: <246A6F60-F8EF-4EC1-9336-BAAA24498863@vidyo.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <035540E07F23F84F8740A4821200EF75@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:36:01 -0000 On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > =95 All entities MUST support H.264 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: > =95 All entities MUST support VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: > =95 All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in. > =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST suppor= t at least one of H.264 and VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in; distinction between browsers and other entities is unclear. > =95 All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Will not achieve interoperability > =95 All entities MUST support H.261 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Insufficient quality for RTCWeb use cases. > =95 There is no MTI video codec > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Effectively this means deferring the decision to either another organizatio= n or the marketplace, which are likely better able to make the decision tha= n the IETF is. > =95 All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at lea= st one of H.264 and VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Will not achieve interoperability with sufficient quality for RTCWeb use ca= ses. > =95 All entities MUST support Theora > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Marginal quality for RTCWeb use cases, with no IPR advantages over VP8. > =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in; will not achieve interoperability with sufficient quality for RTCWeb us= e cases > =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.2) > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in; H.263 is marginal quality for RTCWeb use cases, with minimal IPR advant= ages over H.264. > =95 All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUS= T support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in. > =95 All entities MUST support H.263 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.3) > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Marginal quality for RTCWeb use cases, with minimal IPR advantages over H.2= 64. > =95 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Unnecessary duplication of engineering effort for little to no technical ga= in; Theora is marginal quality for RTCWeb use cases, with no IPR advantages= over VP8. > =95 All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Marginal quality for RTCWeb use cases, with no IPR advantages over VP8. > =95 All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem: Insufficient quality for RTCWeb use cases. From svein@comoyo.com Fri Jan 10 12:52:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375D71AE0CC for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xjrl-5UvdJdu for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E237D1AE0C6 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so1643826ieb.30 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3fb3+wC7xYR+4/z1NbhVP5KMvkpXe2Zmyz+Hb4rwjao=; b=fUEYj1QcIcF+4nGtZBQfhUANZ4ZnUKVFjeB5phym3/zImZwZpAaffOU9tdjFjbnBUV 19jzVXnssDMGE9b4ekF4dhqsed8WRN1CGJnb86SPdMbl6niw3IuFEaNMN9ggfFksK9rj koasOIDehQtZd75BAcbYvw4uwUFyQWw2Z/PE1Ec9uKPDl1/qyNeYsxK9WMjp2e+KKj54 KArUMCWO9qSi2POUgVUvsTG1/QCUAjtEOAQROrAff/YhHFPgmrYgSGAGCwxEEGmMVikX xj5hH7qfrBHvFxjsTRlVUrOzmAGeeJg7R3awRlB6rySh104hJ0LmNUugk+ywjf9UMccI RrzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQky0hVPxsJcjvn6uFQmmlsAQtQsXPp+r8ytexKvo85eYlnDtIK3LO8/sSWvPJp8yUfe/1Bb MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.154.102 with SMTP id vn6mr5682762igb.15.1389387118668; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.103.9 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:51:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> References: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:51:58 +0100 Message-ID: From: Svein Yngvar Willassen To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd7581eaa0ec004efa3e591 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:52:11 -0000 --047d7bd7581eaa0ec004efa3e591 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Not always having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a barrier for extending web based services to mobile devices.* 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Not always having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a barrier for creating web based video services and limit the universe of services.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Not always having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a barrier for creating web based video services and limit the universe of services.* 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable * 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Not always having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a barrier for creating web based video services and limit the universe of services. (It is not enough to only have a mandatory decoder)* 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: -- Svein Willassen, ph.d https://appear.in/ --047d7bd7581eaa0ec004efa3e591 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    1. All entities MUST= support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of thi= s option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

      2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2. All entities MUST= support VP8

        3. =

      1. Are you in favor = of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

        2. =

      2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:

      =

    3. All entities MUST support = both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

      2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:

        3. <= /ol>

    4. Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of thi= s option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No

      2. Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0 Not alway= s having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a bar= rier for extending web based services to mobile devices.

    5. All entitie= s MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No

      2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not always having= a common codec requires transcoding. This option will create a barrier for= creating web based video services and limit the universe of services.<= /span>

  • All entitie= s MUST support H.261

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0

  • There is no MTI video = codec

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Not always having a common codec requires tr= anscoding. This option will create a barrier for creating web based video s= ervices and limit the universe of services.

  • All entitie= s MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 an= d VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities MUST supp= ort Theora

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0

  • All entit= ies MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have= any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities MUS= T implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      =

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:

      3. <= /ol>

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are you in favor of thi= s option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. <= span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;background-color:transparent">Do you = have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entitie= s MUST support H.263

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0

  • All entit= ies MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:

  • All entities MUST supp= ort decoding using Theora.

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0No

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0Not always having a common codec requires tr= anscoding. This option will create a barrier for creating web based video s= ervices and limit the universe of services. (It is not enough to only have = a mandatory decoder)

  • All entitie= s MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=A0Acceptable

    2. Do you have any o= bjections to this option, if so please summarize them:


    --
    Svein Willassen,= ph.d

    --047d7bd7581eaa0ec004efa3e591-- From miconda@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 14:30:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901181AE1BC for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ow1AWFRTA2Vn for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ea0-x22e.google.com (mail-ea0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB4F1ACC84 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ea0-f174.google.com with SMTP id b10so2302608eae.33 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type; bh=zzKEkkcqTS1OR9e3ymdSYSE8eR28yCjInF4TLyl0vdw=; b=x5891VsL89c9cAJBvvgAVe2xtcHZkwUKh4STe6pRh53QF8lenM8GwMJJcIhhHIWf0k N64BqF6P7va5GeBOHXPFtf+UFM/H2Hz1ga0mTwGBb7QewS7I1eCOAJDkTkLlBvbIqiLK H0W+K9E+D+jNQH/n2f+x9iR7r/STSVY/inMZ3QV86zw4CIPBSenfjfSX6TqmlX7q4bk4 7blMVd52izcsO4q9CWtBmAIh7wr6UMJ3lzcwek6wpsddgiqRI1MmDanH1eA3T3eXI5ny mV+s85K+bKqYTSDdirQsZb7tGjN5A3xNa9U6nxFuh2OrRVblsenxhRnTRANQitW2qpK3 gJrQ== X-Received: by 10.15.56.132 with SMTP id y4mr6276726eew.61.1389393006906; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ns.asipto.com. [213.133.111.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm18028631eeg.11.2014.01.10.14.30.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:30:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D0746B.9070305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 23:30:03 +0100 From: Daniel-Constantin Mierla User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080706030701020008020305" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: miconda@gmail.com List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:30:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080706030701020008020305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Too many IPR issues and licensing constraints that makes its usage effectively impossible in a lot of cases****. It has royalty fees (some known, but many unknown) -- imposing a financial revenue from implementers/users towards various companies via Internet/IEFT standards is beyond common sense, openness for everyone and target for innovation that governed Internet evolution so far. Full hardware H.264 encoders/decoders don't really exist at scale, especially on exiting mobile devices where it would be relevant, or at least not exposed to any third parties -- expecting that some vendors will do it is comparable with expecting all claims of VP8 IPR will be dismissed. * 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Too many already known IPR, licensing and other kinds of issues for H.264 (See 1)****.* 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Too many already known IPR, licensing and other kinds of issues for H.264 (See 1)**.* * * 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *R**equires transcoding to operate with all of 'fully compliant' implementations and, with that, exposes to all the issues of H.264.* 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Better let the market to decide than impose upfront a wrong choice**.* 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: ** 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *No if there are risks on**H.263 IPR/licensing***not to be royalty free for all use cases*, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues. Yes, otherwise. * 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Only if there are no **IPR/licensing issues **decoding H.264.* 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *If there are risks on**H.263 IPR/licensing***not to be royalty free for all use cases*, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues.**Yes, otherwise.* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *If there are risks on**Theora IPR/***licensing* not to be royalty free for all use cases, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues.**Yes, otherwise. * 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Only if there are no **IPR/licensing issues **decoding Theora.* 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: * * -- Daniel-Constantin Mierla - http://www.asipto.com http://twitter.com/#!/miconda - http://www.linkedin.com/in/miconda --------------080706030701020008020305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    1. All entities MUST support H.264
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Too many IPR issues and licensing constraints that makes its usage effectively impossible in a lot of cases. It has royalty fees (some known, but many unknown) -- imposing a financial revenue from implementers/users towards various companies via Internet/IEFT standards is beyond common sense, openness for everyone and target for innovation that governed Internet evolution so far. Full hardware H.264 encoders/decoders don't really exist at scale, especially on exiting mobile devices where it would be relevant, or at least not exposed to any third parties -- expecting that some vendors will do it is comparable with expecting all claims of VP8 IPR will be dismissed.


    2. All entities MUST support VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:


    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Too many already known IPR, licensing and other kinds of issues for H.264 (See 1).


    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Too many already known IPR, licensing and other kinds of issues for H.264 (See 1).


    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
    Requires transcoding to operate with all of 'fully compliant' implementations and, with that, exposes to all the issues of H.264.


    6. All entities MUST support H.261
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 


    7. There is no MTI video codec
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
    Better let the market to decide than impose upfront a wrong choice.


    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 


    9. All entities MUST support Theora
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 


    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    No if there are risks on H.263 IPR/licensing not to be royalty free for all use cases, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues. Yes, otherwise.


    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Only if there are no IPR/licensing issues decoding H.264.

    13. All entities MUST support H.263
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    If there are risks on H.263 IPR/licensing not to be royalty free for all use cases, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues. Yes, otherwise.

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    If there are risks on Theora IPR/licensing not to be royalty free for all use cases, then better use VP8 that has higher chances to be cleared out of issues. Yes, otherwise.


    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 
    Only if there are no IPR/licensing issues decoding Theora.


    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
      a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable
      b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:


    -- 
Daniel-Constantin Mierla - http://www.asipto.com
http://twitter.com/#!/miconda - http://www.linkedin.com/in/miconda
    --------------080706030701020008020305-- From singer@apple.com Fri Jan 10 16:14:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EAF1ACCF2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SyP829gb1oIt for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BE31ACC88 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay4.apple.com ([17.128.113.87]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZ7009P5N471RI0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807157-b7ff46d000001540-b2-52d08ceb52ef Received: from spicerack.apple.com (spicerack.apple.com [17.128.115.40]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id D9.6F.05440.BEC80D25; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from singda.apple.com (singda.apple.com [17.197.32.11]) by spicerack.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZ700EN9NCAEJ10@spicerack.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:34 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:14:34 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> References: To: Roman Shpount X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCsofu650KQQec1Tou1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVsejVZ5aCC2wVB/v+sjUwLmTtYuTgkBAwkZjxNaSLkRPIFJO4 cG89WxcjF4eQwGQmicY1jcwQzmomiScvHzGCNDAL6Encv6gF0sALZG6cN5sZxBYWUJI496iH HcRmE1CVeDDnGCOIzSkQLLF9VjMbiM0CFL++7itYnFlAXWLp5AY2CFtb4sm7C6wQM20ktnYe BqsREgiQuLVwJROILQLU+/f7ZCaIm2Ul5p8uncAoMAvhoFlIDpqFZOgCRuZVjAJFqTmJlSZ6 iQUFOal6yfm5mxjBIVcYvoPx3zKrQ4wCHIxKPLwevBeChFgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwxvgChXhT EiurUovy44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifOuTQFKCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGGN3Rdw0ES75ranO lFD+4JBVlOo3e5m2h38esuk7CRyxO+7kXfn7VPON0sy6wChnlffbn8w7OnVNYoTxqars5BN1 fcLsh/QCrzR5mhyWux8w/XyPVdXrsK/6jGsuzPfeonD9KEOttdT8T696DA/9P+KuIsUwc6l+ i+M2vfaAdnbWw8vtBfxLlViKMxINtZiLihMB7QAhPTUCAAA= Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:14:47 -0000 I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you = write as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort = to do this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how = much this would help the entire industry, and not just this effort. On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount wrote: > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they = should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this = group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents = convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we = would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first = person argue for it to become an MIT.=20 David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 16:26:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A031A1F66 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YkFzj6WKOATt for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x22f.google.com (mail-oa0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE581A1F4C for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id i7so5828993oag.6 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9+lnQeMb3kryiDMD0TWANxVSunrWkL4elhKR3DfmAtw=; b=Diyh95he/FHV3TFC8k4Yw8qe0Gu/tuiSEPV/8MFd7lmddN5MMCWrxX6HqLg6y4mKL1 GqpN3rtCuBrgYYom5oKxxiSqnP5dUpAto7zt2KBAdL4kb9ki1mhVo/Ugku70FlbUQ7uD tihp2RLlEYFfcQFtEI+3vkmTzojdzvfQMYf8dUz3rbcID1oonLLtOAVBJEb7IDNCwQ9V P3WE/VTHK0EvTjlT6FnVvYW15qAsOvrLstaHZMI9fIQqlPHD+iuS5DESUAGGfPjBN4eK Z1LkowjKm8Ne7+Pgjp1wSkNxpmj+8OGxVt0GRt0p/ug9hh2c5g2Mw34Eax0gNo14WOLJ fstw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.123.19 with SMTP id lw19mr10693774oeb.24.1389399989808; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:26:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D01DDB.3060102@googlemail.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D01DDB.3060102@googlemail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:26:29 +1100 Message-ID: From: Silvia Pfeiffer To: Maik Merten Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d2f88d7f41204efa6e466 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:26:42 -0000 --047d7b5d2f88d7f41204efa6e466 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 11 Jan 2014 03:19, "Maik Merten" wrote: > > Am 10.01.2014 15:54, schrieb stephane.proust@orange.com: > >> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > > As far as I can tell, this is a poll to collect opinions on the various options that are on the table and I'm optimistic every opinion will be noted. Given this is a *straw* poll, every reply will be disregarded in the sense of this *not* being decision-making. ;-) > > > >> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > > > As far as I recall, most people who said they could live with options that include "safe to implement" legacy codecs also voiced support for having at least one high performance codec (i.e., H.264 or VP8). If I read things correctly most people who went this road are not enthusiastic regarding old coding technology, but are willing to accept that compromise for the sake of finding an interoperable solution that can be implemented by everyone. > > If I understand correctly, Silvia's point is that the "H.264, or nothing" camp seems to be significantly less willing to commit to such a compromise, employing arguments regarding interoperability with pre-webrtc systems, while one perhaps could argue that a) ensuring interoperability between designed-for-webrtc systems is already hard enough and b) that legacy systems should not block making progress regarding interoperability of designed-for-webrtc systems. > > This is, of course, merely my interpretation. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks, Silvia > Best regards, > > Maik > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --047d7b5d2f88d7f41204efa6e466 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On 11 Jan 2014 03:19, "Maik Merten" <maikmerten@googlemail.com> wrote:
    >
    > Am 10.01.2014 15:54, schrieb stephane.proust@orange.com:
    >
    >> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way = forward.
    >
    >
    > As far as I can tell, this is a poll to collect opinions on the variou= s options that are on the table and I'm optimistic every opinion will b= e noted. Given this is a *straw* poll, every reply will be disregarded in t= he sense of this *not* being decision-making. ;-)
    >
    >
    >
    >> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of = old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who co= uld live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only =A0MTI c= odec.
    >
    >
    > As far as I recall, most people who said they could live with options = that include "safe to implement" legacy codecs also voiced suppor= t for having at least one high performance codec (i.e., H.264 or VP8). If I= read things correctly most people who went this road are not enthusiastic = regarding old coding technology, but are willing to accept that compromise = for the sake of finding an interoperable solution that can be implemented b= y everyone.
    >
    > If I understand correctly, Silvia's point is that the "H.264,= or nothing" camp seems to be significantly less willing to commit to = such a compromise, employing arguments regarding interoperability with pre-= webrtc systems, while one perhaps could argue that a) ensuring interoperabi= lity between designed-for-webrtc systems is already hard enough and b) that= legacy systems should not block making progress regarding interoperability= of designed-for-webrtc systems.
    >
    > This is, of course, merely my interpretation.

    Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

    Thanks,
    Silvia

    > Best regards,
    >
    > Maik
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --047d7b5d2f88d7f41204efa6e466-- From silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 16:39:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5671AD34C for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6MU76uNHki7u for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202D81ACCFD for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id wp4so96540obc.10 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6VaQazq1Xpqom3kuU+uAtZg8knHuMnhInjSdYp67n3w=; b=MERvS46hTZFgscToMu5wFHPm5lh4u7yhXh0gj3nGd3bx6A3ly7vnfz9hY4Iu5mEECh RMxgBSnJ1D2kNGbu8VpJPUaVQLnoEZMTR5xXCw4nItMIhuKR/AbLagphHrj2rRFXRqb4 xzxKov9HpXLvIiTCuFKIj57AJww5miWI4LRqXbJiCyVIzJNHlo0jARf3R2BNXpp/r+f7 +73K2bUGcma+5sQdcq5JvdhRt+9RgYIt7sFHEXXd7dSiCTS1fcRtXATb37qeYmofaw3w g/72668tWENJ3Ll3CbuiGhZkuCY0qFcjjX2u57vEN2n/uXC/TPzjyq4vvwFR8UXg8rot /xcQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.35.194 with SMTP id k2mr10685982oej.42.1389400781799; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:39:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:39:41 +1100 Message-ID: From: Silvia Pfeiffer To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0112cb560cc76304efa714e7 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:39:54 -0000 --089e0112cb560cc76304efa714e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand motivation and not start a flame war. I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability is an important feature of protocols in the networking world when you're trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even here we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible with Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer. I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled by trying to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situations that webrtc doesn't actually target. Best Regards, Silvia. On 11 Jan 2014 06:20, "Dave Crocker" wrote: > > if you want to restrict >> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old >> features only? >> > > > My impression is that the above point could indicate a very basic point > of confusion amongst a number of participants. > > The issue is the difference between minimal, guaranteed interoperability, > versus maximum possible capabilities. > > The statement seems to be concerned about permitting maximum capabilities, > whereas Mandatory to Implement is usually for ensuring the first goal of > basic interoperability. > > That is, it seeks to ensure that any two participants can achieve basic, > useful interoperation. When there is a negotiation mechanism, that is the > way to then get mutual agreement to do something more capable. > > Whether to interoperate with legacy systems is a common, strategic > decisions. It is hugely important and often affects success of an effort. > > On the average, Internet protocols have tended to try quite hard to permit > interoperation with legacy systems, where possible. This has often been a > challenge, and often has slowed down adoption of newer features. These > hassles are balanced against getting a larger base of initial users more > easily. > > The problem with ignoring the installed base of legacy users is the danger > that they will continue using their legacy services and not switch to the > wonderful new service. Creators of wonderful new services often > underestimate the switching barrier that impedes those legacy users. > > By contrast, defining things in a way that is friendly to legacy users, > while permitting a negotiation path to higher capabilities, is often > successful at seducing those users, over time, to try out the more capable > features. > > Unless I've entirely misunderstood the design of webRTC, the intent is (or > can be and should be) to support basic, legacy interoperation, while > permitting negotiation up to newer and more wonderful capabilities. > > For that model, what's most important about the core MTI requirements is > that they permit maximum degree of interoperability; where possible that > should include legacy systems. > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --089e0112cb560cc76304efa714e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to unde= rstand motivation and not start a flame war.

    I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interopera= bility is an important feature of protocols in the networking world when yo= u're trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even = here we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible wi= th Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer.

    I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not sta= lled by trying to stay backwards compatible with technology/application sit= uations that webrtc doesn't actually target.

    Best Regards,
    Silvia.

    On 11 Jan 2014 06:20, "Dave Crocker" &= lt;dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:

    if you want to restrict
    WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old
    features only?


    My impression is that the above point could indicate a very basic =A0point = of confusion amongst a number of participants.

    The issue is the difference between minimal, guaranteed interoperability, v= ersus maximum possible capabilities.

    The statement seems to be concerned about permitting maximum capabilities, = whereas Mandatory to Implement is usually for ensuring the first goal of ba= sic interoperability.

    That is, it seeks to ensure that any two participants can achieve basic, us= eful interoperation. =A0When there is a negotiation mechanism, that is the = way to then get mutual agreement to do something more capable.

    Whether to interoperate with legacy systems is a common, strategic decision= s. =A0It is hugely important and often affects success of an effort.

    On the average, Internet protocols have tended to try quite hard to permit = interoperation with legacy systems, where possible. =A0This has often been = a challenge, and often has slowed down adoption of newer features. =A0These= hassles are balanced against getting a larger base of initial users more e= asily.

    The problem with ignoring the installed base of legacy users is the danger = that they will continue using their legacy services and not switch to the w= onderful new service. =A0Creators of wonderful new services often underesti= mate the switching barrier that impedes those legacy users.

    By contrast, defining things in a way that is friendly to legacy users, whi= le permitting a negotiation path to higher capabilities, is often successfu= l at seducing those users, over time, to try out the more capable features.=

    Unless I've entirely misunderstood the design of webRTC, the intent is = (or can be and should be) to support basic, legacy interoperation, while pe= rmitting negotiation up to newer and more wonderful capabilities.

    For that model, what's most important about the core MTI requirements i= s that they permit maximum degree of interoperability; where possible that = should include legacy systems.

    d/
    --
    Dave Crocker
    Brandenburg InternetWorking
    bbiw.net
    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    --089e0112cb560cc76304efa714e7-- From roman@telurix.com Fri Jan 10 16:50:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5181AC441 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eKtIvi_EI0pJ for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com (mail-wi0-f182.google.com [209.85.212.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A341ACAD7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f182.google.com with SMTP id en1so285024wid.3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9jIp/UdIp/LpLwb+/jz2hiuTTkVScGqeCDxsPWj2Hkc=; b=VN8Qpj+4uc6Bb1S63P7ECMJyf5Gvqx8N5GJTHMZJo6tjUhUYRAAlrCl/c8dZnrTVw0 Zsnw3q6fz8AgQTVuPyzcBQsVCv6O0nnqz/wv31WtPFoX1Xn6zpfBUBnaiOux08r+fW5B u+0q7Mn+qAii9eVL+/C6EtHKc8o0rCZAhwTFDND7a0bFU06SkcSHHi7jnbZiehbq8wRf vXutEeUyhK5qqs0pz1IwL1/xFkKqkZ1ugVRKpXKSOsxRUDJiA5IHJFmjPciWyL0qJvNR XzCK/E5Ud+44U2+h1xAtgeMNH51BO4j6wLW2RP7wExpt2mN13Aw6DH+eJlKm1LLwJ86z dHfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYJOGchX2Ag+dEgL6Lr4HFgZCvEVg3wa84oF0/ZBoA/nOXfYnJrQgAhwCO+wCM0xvjZJcT X-Received: by 10.180.206.138 with SMTP id lo10mr5125615wic.25.1389401430477; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f178.google.com (mail-we0-f178.google.com [74.125.82.178]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ua8sm5472065wjc.4.2014.01.10.16.50.29 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id t60so4633111wes.23 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.11.201 with SMTP id ek9mr5129370wid.54.1389401429138; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> References: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:29 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: David Singer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be044a264f904efa73a83 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:50:43 -0000 --f46d043be044a264f904efa73a83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know that making H.264 license free has been tried. As far as I know so far it has not succeeded. All I am saying that if every person who voted on this list for H.264 as an MTI managed to convince their company to change their IPR declaration in MPEG (and I believe it does include Apple), this monumental effort would be much closer to completion. _____________ Roman Shpount On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:14 PM, David Singer wrote: > I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you > write as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort t= o > do this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how muc= h > this would help the entire industry, and not just this effort. > > > On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount wrote: > > > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they > should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this grou= p > that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convince= d > their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most > likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue > for it to become an MIT. > > David Singer > Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. > > --f46d043be044a264f904efa73a83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I know that making H.264 license free has been tried. As f= ar as I know so far it has not succeeded. All I am saying that if every per= son who voted on this list for H.264 as an MTI managed to convince their co= mpany to change their IPR declaration in MPEG (and I believe it does includ= e Apple), this monumental effort would be much closer to completion.

    _____________
    Roman Sh= pount


    On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:14 PM, David S= inger <singer@apple.com> wrote:
    I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you wri= te as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort to do = this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how much thi= s would help the entire industry, and not just this effort.


    On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

    > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they= should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this group= that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced= their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most li= kely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for = it to become an MIT.

    David Singer
    Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.


    --f46d043be044a264f904efa73a83-- From singer@apple.com Fri Jan 10 16:53:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10ED1ACC85 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qN-Ikk-4hz72 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21721ACCFD for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay3.apple.com ([17.128.113.83]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZ7007VTP4MMST1@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:19 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807153-b7f396d00000722b-d9-52d095fed5f6 Received: from spicerack.apple.com (spicerack.apple.com [17.128.115.40]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 57.BB.29227.FF590D25; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from singda.apple.com (singda.apple.com [17.197.32.11]) by spicerack.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZ700D0HP4UBA70@spicerack.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:18 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:53:18 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <037A0533-8DE1-41D5-8673-D1953E25919A@apple.com> References: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> To: Roman Shpount X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCsoft/6oUgg0W/WSzW/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxvXmI+wFJ/gqJu3/wNLAuJ+7i5GTQ0LARGL+0o3sELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAQmM0l0LTzKCOGsZpK4u/sAkMPBwSygJ3H/ohZIAy+QuXHebGYQW1hASeLcox6w QWwCqhIP5hxjBLE5BYIl1m49zQJiswDFly77zARiMwuoSyyd3MAGYWtLPHl3gRVipo3Eldfb oY44wyhx8foVsEEiQM1/v09mArlBQkBWYv7p0gmMArMQLpqF5KJZSKYuYGRexShQlJqTWGms l1hQkJOql5yfu4kRHHaFwTsY/yyzOsQowMGoxMPryXshSIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIr1Q/UIg3 JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjjv2hSglEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgbFo/QqFSw7x1hk7 ZW8JlQhx17Z9Uzn3Q3xXwcEuXm4VE0OhisLP9y3E+F9JTGH30dv34Wqnnk9CgoR45M1HH5Wn +pqXa8pZ3jLfFFA0z4rjiKnYiuTPHcx7zjgYMb8otF+bzXv4o/3Ej1t4ilbEBcV+WFajYqfw 4W5dk702o6XNsT8sXrqKSizFGYmGWsxFxYkAbMlFXzcCAAA= Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 00:53:51 -0000 On Jan 10, 2014, at 16:50 , Roman Shpount wrote: > I know that making H.264 license free has been tried. As far as I know = so far it has not succeeded. All I am saying that if every person who = voted on this list for H.264 as an MTI managed to convince their company = to change their IPR declaration in MPEG (and I believe it does include = Apple), this monumental effort would be much closer to completion. If you check our IPR declaration against Web Video Coding (the formal = name for the standard that isolates H.264 Constrained Baseline into a = separate document, to get such separate IPR statements) I think you = should find we did that. One could wish that all who say they want an RF codec to exist had done = the same, of course. >=20 > _____________ > Roman Shpount >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:14 PM, David Singer = wrote: > I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems = you write as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the = effort to do this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do = realize how much this would help the entire industry, and not just this = effort. >=20 >=20 > On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount wrote: >=20 > > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, = they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing = this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 = proponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding = H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be = the first person argue for it to become an MIT. >=20 > David Singer > Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. >=20 >=20 David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From dhc@dcrocker.net Fri Jan 10 17:04:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3691ADA5D for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lW5TW4_c1fEn for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20211ACCE5 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0B14R8c022676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:31 -0800 Message-ID: <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:26 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Silvia Pfeiffer References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:04:31 -0800 (PST) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 01:04:47 -0000 On 1/10/2014 4:39 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand > motivation and not start a flame war. Note that my response carefully removed references to you. My concern wasn't about your posting but rather an issue that I believe it represents that is more general. > I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability is an > important feature of protocols in the networking world when you're > trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even here > we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible with > Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer. Actually, token ring technology and ethernet were developed in parallel. (Irvine Ring[1] - 1974, versus Parc Ethernet - 1975-ish.) And Ethernet is a particularly intriguing example, since what is called Ethernet today is an interface standard, althought the underlying electrical stuff underneath is nothing like the original. My general point is that deciding to be compatible with an installed base or deciding to be incompatible is massively important and needs to be done very thoughtfully and, I believe, very cautiously. The fact that there is a significant constituency that wants to have webRTC support the installed base of legacy is important. Rejecting that desire needs to have very strong justification, IMO. > I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled by trying > to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situations that > webrtc doesn't actually target. Again, what can seem like a barrier to progress can actually turn out to facilitate it, by seducing the installed base into a familiar environment that /also/ offers more capability. I always invoke email for this sort of example. (Such a surprise.) Dumb, textual Arpanet mail was going along through the 70s and 80s, with everyone knowing that multi-media mail would be much better. There were numerous attempts to define and deploy it, to replace the embarassingly limited textual Arpanet mail. Some proprietary efforts had success, but all of the public ones. In the case of X.400, the failure was protracted, expensive and globally spectacular. (Please don't look inside MS Exchange server code...) MIME gave the world a successful multi-media email capability specifically by preserving the installed base and building upon it. MIME mail is text, as far as any mail handling agent needs to know. Only the author and the recipient needed to adopt MIME. The power of building up from the legacy base, rather than seeking to replace it, is really quite remarkable. d/ [1] http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.6-TokenRingDavidFarberIrvineNSF69-74.html [2] http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111598.htm -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 17:15:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E30B1AC828 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ao7DA6qu93Gn for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1951A1F76 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f180.google.com with SMTP id wo20so5572840obc.39 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8mWIJcVxgVQHJSVILwF5TbQHymgBpKbwdoSvKHvS7wE=; b=0IBAwqyj5uMoYu+bq2jOZ4rcsHwh6HRd6Iz6mWuM6oubKQR3xidGZqIsuqyI5TpfDo +SV7X/eX/LzXuDk2nSExxuoA7FQlHpU6c5cYQs25rXufMGdkOOuCKjvC13lldF2U1Mds RUXNPCt2QlDkD/M3k4T+s3BpWeliuagVp4+T3tyKTh/80iYhZqBJP2YeO1arQ61f4BbF 55FmTmhZ+jVyZ2wBbOrS7he7oevQCx12tHEGTvNTnbn636aOtiJzfii2r8MMPr+b3FVQ u+1+I/q39t6vWsAXVqjkqCwhgJX/5xugIa9urbNUAwQeHPbD8tipxscFWONaFWXSgA6+ JA+A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.157.130 with SMTP id wm2mr10744643oeb.31.1389402920557; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:15:20 +1100 Message-ID: From: Silvia Pfeiffer To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6afcc87a2ba04efa79389 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 01:15:33 -0000 --047d7bd6afcc87a2ba04efa79389 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 11 Jan 2014 12:04, "Dave Crocker" wrote: > > On 1/10/2014 4:39 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: >> >> Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand >> motivation and not start a flame war. > > > Note that my response carefully removed references to you. My concern wasn't about your posting but rather an issue that I believe it represents that is more general. > > > >> I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability is an >> important feature of protocols in the networking world when you're >> trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even here >> we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible with >> Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer. > > > Actually, token ring technology and ethernet were developed in parallel. (Irvine Ring[1] - 1974, versus Parc Ethernet - 1975-ish.) And Ethernet is a particularly intriguing example, since what is called Ethernet today is an interface standard, althought the underlying electrical stuff underneath is nothing like the original. > > My general point is that deciding to be compatible with an installed base or deciding to be incompatible is massively important and needs to be done very thoughtfully and, I believe, very cautiously. > > The fact that there is a significant constituency that wants to have webRTC support the installed base of legacy is important. Rejecting that desire needs to have very strong justification, IMO. > > > > >> I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled by trying >> to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situations that >> webrtc doesn't actually target. > > > Again, what can seem like a barrier to progress can actually turn out to facilitate it, by seducing the installed base into a familiar environment that /also/ offers more capability. > > I always invoke email for this sort of example. (Such a surprise.) > > Dumb, textual Arpanet mail was going along through the 70s and 80s, with everyone knowing that multi-media mail would be much better. There were numerous attempts to define and deploy it, to replace the embarassingly limited textual Arpanet mail. Some proprietary efforts had success, but all of the public ones. In the case of X.400, the failure was protracted, expensive and globally spectacular. (Please don't look inside MS Exchange server code...) > > MIME gave the world a successful multi-media email capability specifically by preserving the installed base and building upon it. MIME mail is text, as far as any mail handling agent needs to know. Only the author and the recipient needed to adopt MIME. > > The power of building up from the legacy base, rather than seeking to replace it, is really quite remarkable. Agreed. However, I am objecting to those replies where backwards interoperability is the *only* motivation for a reply, ruling out all other options. That is simply stating that no compromise is possible. It would be like remaining with text-only email forever. Not all h.264 proponents have answered in this way and not all vp8 proponents either. Silvia. > d/ > > > [1] http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.6-TokenRingDavidFarberIrvineNSF69-74.html > > [2] http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111598.htm > > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net --047d7bd6afcc87a2ba04efa79389 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On 11 Jan 2014 12:04, "Dave Crocker" <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
    >
    > On 1/10/2014 4:39 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
    >>
    >> Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand=
    >> motivation and not start a flame war.
    >
    >
    > Note that my response carefully removed references to you. =A0My conce= rn wasn't about your posting but rather an issue that I believe it repr= esents that is more general.
    >
    >
    >
    >> I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability= is an
    >> important feature of protocols in the networking world when you= 9;re
    >> trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even = here
    >> we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatibl= e with
    >> Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer.
    >
    >
    > Actually, token ring technology and ethernet were developed in paralle= l. =A0(Irvine Ring[1] - 1974, versus Parc Ethernet - 1975-ish.) =A0And Ethe= rnet is a particularly intriguing example, since what is called Ethernet to= day is an interface standard, althought the underlying electrical stuff und= erneath is nothing like the original.
    >
    > My general point is that deciding to be compatible with an installed b= ase or deciding to be incompatible is massively important and needs to be d= one very thoughtfully and, I believe, very cautiously.
    >
    > The fact that there is a significant constituency that wants to have w= ebRTC support the installed base of legacy is important. =A0Rejecting that = desire needs to have very strong justification, IMO.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >> I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled b= y trying
    >> to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situation= s that
    >> webrtc doesn't actually target.
    >
    >
    > Again, what can seem like a barrier to progress can actually turn out = to facilitate it, by seducing the installed base into a familiar environmen= t that /also/ offers more capability.
    >
    > I always invoke email for this sort of example. =A0(Such a surprise.)<= br> >
    > Dumb, textual Arpanet mail was going along through the 70s and 80s, wi= th everyone knowing that multi-media mail would be much better. =A0There we= re numerous attempts to define and deploy it, to replace the embarassingly = limited textual Arpanet mail. =A0Some proprietary efforts had success, but = all of the public ones. =A0In the case of X.400, the failure was protracted= , expensive and globally spectacular. =A0(Please don't look inside MS E= xchange server code...)
    >
    > MIME gave the world a successful multi-media email capability specific= ally by preserving the installed base and building upon it. MIME mail is te= xt, as far as any mail handling agent needs to know. Only the author and th= e recipient needed to adopt MIME.
    >
    > The power of building up from the legacy base, rather than seeking to = replace it, is really quite remarkable.

    Agreed. However, I am objecting to those replies where backw= ards interoperability is the *only* motivation for a reply, ruling out all = other options. That is simply stating that no compromise is possible. It wo= uld be like remaining with text-only email forever. Not all h.264 proponent= s have answered in this way and not all vp8 proponents either.

    Silvia.

    > d/
    >
    >
    > [1] http://www.historyofcomputerco= mmunications.info/Book/6/6.6-TokenRingDavidFarberIrvineNSF69-74.html >
    > [2] =A0http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111598.htm
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dave Crocker
    > Brandenburg InternetWorking
    > bbiw.net

    --047d7bd6afcc87a2ba04efa79389-- From ron@debian.org Fri Jan 10 18:39:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7121ADF0F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:39:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2P5RB6BYBTMk for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561771AD947 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2014 13:09:34 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672304F8F3 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:09:33 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 0kEl-aFLkWSl for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:09:32 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 984DE4F902; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:09:32 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:09:32 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140111023932.GB3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 02:39:47 -0000 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 04:14:34PM -0800, David Singer wrote: > I suspect it’s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you write > as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort to do this > at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how much this would > help the entire industry, and not just this effort. Oh some of us are well aware that a subset of the IPR holders have *tried*. It's the fact that they have persistently *failed* which so spectacularly highlights the patent disaster which the wise here would not wish to repeat or to become entangled in if they aren't already up to their necks in it. Saying, "we're in deep shit, you should come join us here, it's warm!" isn't a particularly inviting proposition. But if you like, and if you think it would help, we could apply a little old fashioned competition pressure and make it a race! VP8 to get through MPEG, or H.264 to get an RF licence and be compliant with all the conditions of BCP 79 that it's so far completely ignoring. Winner takes all. Everyone wins. Let's see who has the cojones and conviction in their beliefs to take on that bet? I'm up for it, Ron From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Fri Jan 10 19:11:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6691ADF0F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ASArFE6PgPP7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f179.google.com (mail-ie0-f179.google.com [209.85.223.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940601ADF44 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id tp5so194212ieb.10 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=VwrObx4PFrUv67gcgWmLowMXlwytbqwQG1MUesiQST8=; b=XoFftlMP9ruMc958JdRcCZ//FcfmgjNQARRLHgL+6zgFyA3niMZOr4NgRGCBukbdjz BIlvmR2t7wzAzlQQsROsc8uMBqxru/Llmg8IgrjbwX3ChluDw+EyldhEaT0WpbrIEBjn SYDqRAtRgKD45GV3q2w1F3uFOcKUgpalx/JKj7s8kAtKfS+NiUPFTajpQndtNZT9kWpD xSwgG5M8o/bOcChlFzllGKxBtiw/YOPOhlixPmRdBkC7Kfq7yKbJpytey1ly8TeyJnHs Ou0VdfEsV8UWRZ4vRa2lfq4RxFLzDt5e5C3qSsbOC3+x5cTjVjDH8mZ1hKaHYnj3YLv8 Etnw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkybxWuVEkn7PjN/kK5n3DOervLYmAHqzCVvP6Xc8VhDWJN9Vbnx19mdRtXVUj059OK8qBX X-Received: by 10.42.28.69 with SMTP id m5mr11329947icc.21.1389409897028; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a1sm6031711igo.0.2014.01.10.19.11.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:11:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:11:34 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050606090700030501090507" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 03:11:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050606090700030501090507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, * We are talking about convincing vendors, not end-users. End-users don't care whether we're using H.264 or VP8 under the hood. As to what entices vendors... * As far as I'm aware, the number of legacy systems that support H.264 hardware decoders *and* encoders *and* exposes an API to them is equal to zero, or close to it. In contrast, the number of existing WebRTC deployments using VP8 is in the millions. So who exactly are we trying to entice here? And how exactly does H.264 have a market-share advantage over VP8 here? Gili On 10/01/2014 8:04 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/10/2014 4:39 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: >> Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand >> motivation and not start a flame war. > > Note that my response carefully removed references to you. My concern > wasn't about your posting but rather an issue that I believe it > represents that is more general. > > >> I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability is an >> important feature of protocols in the networking world when you're >> trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even here >> we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible with >> Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer. > > Actually, token ring technology and ethernet were developed in > parallel. (Irvine Ring[1] - 1974, versus Parc Ethernet - 1975-ish.) > And Ethernet is a particularly intriguing example, since what is > called Ethernet today is an interface standard, althought the > underlying electrical stuff underneath is nothing like the original. > > My general point is that deciding to be compatible with an installed > base or deciding to be incompatible is massively important and needs > to be done very thoughtfully and, I believe, very cautiously. > > The fact that there is a significant constituency that wants to have > webRTC support the installed base of legacy is important. Rejecting > that desire needs to have very strong justification, IMO. > > > >> I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled by trying >> to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situations that >> webrtc doesn't actually target. > > Again, what can seem like a barrier to progress can actually turn out > to facilitate it, by seducing the installed base into a familiar > environment that /also/ offers more capability. > > I always invoke email for this sort of example. (Such a surprise.) > > Dumb, textual Arpanet mail was going along through the 70s and 80s, > with everyone knowing that multi-media mail would be much better. > There were numerous attempts to define and deploy it, to replace the > embarassingly limited textual Arpanet mail. Some proprietary efforts > had success, but all of the public ones. In the case of X.400, the > failure was protracted, expensive and globally spectacular. (Please > don't look inside MS Exchange server code...) > > MIME gave the world a successful multi-media email capability > specifically by preserving the installed base and building upon it. > MIME mail is text, as far as any mail handling agent needs to know. > Only the author and the recipient needed to adopt MIME. > > The power of building up from the legacy base, rather than seeking to > replace it, is really quite remarkable. > > d/ > > > [1] > http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.6-TokenRingDavidFarberIrvineNSF69-74.html > > [2] http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111598.htm > --------------050606090700030501090507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Dave,
    • We are talking about convincing vendors, not end-users. End-users don't care whether we're using H.264 or VP8 under the hood. As to what entices vendors...
    • As far as I'm aware, the number of legacy systems that support H.264 hardware decoders *and* encoders *and* exposes an API to them is equal to zero, or close to it. In contrast, the number of existing WebRTC deployments using VP8 is in the millions.

    So who exactly are we trying to entice here? And how exactly does H.264 have a market-share advantage over VP8 here?

    Gili

    On 10/01/2014 8:04 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
    On 1/10/2014 4:39 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was indeed trying to understand
    motivation and not start a flame war.

    Note that my response carefully removed references to you.  My concern wasn't about your posting but rather an issue that I believe it represents that is more general.


    I can see where you're coming from. Backwards interoperability is an
    important feature of protocols in the networking world when you're
    trying to extend a protocol, e.g. from http1.1 to http2. But even here
    we sometimes break with the past, e.g. token ring is not compatible with
    Ethernet and the compatibility is via a different layer.

    Actually, token ring technology and ethernet were developed in parallel.  (Irvine Ring[1] - 1974, versus Parc Ethernet - 1975-ish.)  And Ethernet is a particularly intriguing example, since what is called Ethernet today is an interface standard, althought the underlying electrical stuff underneath is nothing like the original.

    My general point is that deciding to be compatible with an installed base or deciding to be incompatible is massively important and needs to be done very thoughtfully and, I believe, very cautiously.

    The fact that there is a significant constituency that wants to have webRTC support the installed base of legacy is important.  Rejecting that desire needs to have very strong justification, IMO.



    I'd just like to make sure progress on webrtc is not stalled by trying
    to stay backwards compatible with technology/application situations that
    webrtc doesn't actually target.

    Again, what can seem like a barrier to progress can actually turn out to facilitate it, by seducing the installed base into a familiar environment that /also/ offers more capability.

    I always invoke email for this sort of example.  (Such a surprise.)

    Dumb, textual Arpanet mail was going along through the 70s and 80s, with everyone knowing that multi-media mail would be much better.  There were numerous attempts to define and deploy it, to replace the embarassingly limited textual Arpanet mail.  Some proprietary efforts had success, but all of the public ones.  In the case of X.400, the failure was protracted, expensive and globally spectacular.  (Please don't look inside MS Exchange server code...)

    MIME gave the world a successful multi-media email capability specifically by preserving the installed base and building upon it. MIME mail is text, as far as any mail handling agent needs to know. Only the author and the recipient needed to adopt MIME.

    The power of building up from the legacy base, rather than seeking to replace it, is really quite remarkable.

    d/


    [1] http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.6-TokenRingDavidFarberIrvineNSF69-74.html

    [2]  http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111598.htm


    --------------050606090700030501090507-- From bernard.aboba@gmail.com Fri Jan 10 19:50:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440221ADF88 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJ40CVJrSjmB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x230.google.com (mail-pb0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA211ACC7E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id md12so5224725pbc.7 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=1uuLhEkJS7sWHaYd8Qs4TdCv3JQAddTQFj8l9RKuskk=; b=TR10NvcEnSZGXvh6JnY9xdlZ2SVb97+4jnd7NSRvbPEDQ2tIl6F507Ov0MuzCNGhqZ 73OfVRzU2kQlkD3IXg32j3YEfHzOeXqFNgHebPM4lR1+wNNrbhZPoeCh41WanWl6/cIa SWiOl2fj8QvpF7cOE0A0UZHTiCvtEnOvur/Ea57/R+35AFFpmmxRBiu2AAQOBZY2KpLL QQtcmN+WEu+8f+Ry7WjjpW55mPH8+1KAu2r+BgaiVZ473398jcG9ddr6rkMesErjmrD4 Hkh0LbXFxWEAxfUkt2VvIkLt7+pVcZZtq2t7Y2wYNULiEHsF0Zamjt9wUnrVl0CqrQuI iw/w== X-Received: by 10.66.102.4 with SMTP id fk4mr15772496pab.59.1389412241598; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.17.83.51] (mobile-166-147-081-112.mycingular.net. [166.147.81.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id jn12sm20931648pbd.37.2014.01.10.19.50.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:40 -0800 (PST) References: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> <20140111023932.GB3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <20140111023932.GB3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2342A73B-6241-4638-B7F5-B451CF47B4E2@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11B554a) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:50:36 -0800 To: Ron Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 03:50:53 -0000 On Jan 10, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Ron Said: > > VP8 to get through MPEG, or H.264 to get an RF licence and be compliant > with all the conditions of BCP 79 that it's so far completely ignoring. > > Winner takes all. Everyone wins. [BA] Not a bad contest - but one whose outcome will not be known for a while. From tim@phonefromhere.com Sat Jan 11 04:36:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025AF1ADF8C for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 04:36:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URzYvz-U4IaH for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 04:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273261ADF78 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 04:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84816 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2014 12:36:30 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 962 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 11 Jan 2014 12:36:30 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C146118A060B; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8CB2D18A0222; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> To: Svein Yngvar Willassen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] on Svein Yngvar Willassen 's choices was- Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:44 -0000 On 10 Jan 2014, at 20:51, Svein Yngvar Willassen = wrote: >=20 > =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: Not always having a common codec requires = transcoding. This option will create a barrier for extending web based = services to mobile devices. I'm not sure I understand how you see transcoding happening.=20 The only occurrence I can see is where one non-browser app e.g. = 'facebook for ios' implements only h264 and a different=20 non-browser app e.g. 'linkedin for android' implements only VP8 AND = users of these two apps choose to attempt to call each other. I'd humbly suggest that the codec transcoding would be the least of = their problems, it is unlikely that 2 single purpose apps will be expected to interop. It isn't even clear that it is desirable.=20= That's kinda the point of the 'browser' distinction - it isn't about = laptop vs mobile it is=20 multi purpose vs single purpose. or Generic vs Dedicated. T. Tim Panton - Web/VoIP consultant and implementor www.westhawk.co.uk From harald@alvestrand.no Sat Jan 11 06:38:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC59A1ADFCD for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:38:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dpl5RsAvlMzc for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E6B1ADF73 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E272439E4EA for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:38:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cxC6j3NJ4Cht for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:38:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.71.7.220] (unknown [66.201.52.99]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E7A039E4E8 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:38:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D15760.4020904@alvestrand.no> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:38:24 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040605030907060103020304" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:38:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605030907060103020304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/10/2014 08:10 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote: > > Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a > little of the language used in the below and have it also be true. > > > > > This being said, if [H.264] "VP8" proponents want it to be the video > MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] "developing > their video codec specifications within a recognized standards > organization > Coincidentally, I'm at the MPEG meeting trying to be allowed to develop a VP8 specification within MPEG, which probably fits the definition of "a recognized standards organization". So far, it's been slow going. I've been asked multiple times whether it's actually worth the effort to continue trying. Since MPEG's rules are somewhat opaque to me about what I can say in public about what goes on at MPEG, I'll leave it at that. --------------040605030907060103020304 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 01/10/2014 08:10 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote:

    Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a little of the language used in the below and have it also be true.

     


    This being said, if [H.264] “VP8” proponents want it to be the video MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] “developing their video codec specifications within a recognized standards organization


    Coincidentally, I'm at the MPEG meeting trying to be allowed to develop a VP8 specification within MPEG, which probably fits the definition of "a recognized standards organization".

    So far, it's been slow going. I've been asked multiple times whether it's actually worth the effort to continue trying.

    Since MPEG's rules are somewhat opaque to me about what I can say in public about what goes on at MPEG, I'll leave it at that.


    --------------040605030907060103020304-- From dhc@dcrocker.net Sat Jan 11 06:47:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7921ADFCD for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bgtQHL1YKs1M for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5ED41ADF73 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0BElcMJ003163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:42 -0800 Message-ID: <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:36 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cowwoc References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:47:55 -0000 On 1/10/2014 7:11 PM, cowwoc wrote: > Dave, > > * We are talking about convincing vendors, not end-users. End-users > don't care whether we're using H.264 or VP8 under the hood. As to > what entices vendors... > * As far as I'm aware, the number of legacy systems that support H.264 > hardware decoders *and* encoders *and* exposes an API to them is > equal to zero, or close to it. In contrast, the number of existing > WebRTC deployments using VP8 is in the millions. > > So who exactly are we trying to entice here? And how exactly does H.264 > have a market-share advantage over VP8 here? End users care about having to change switch to new software or learn new procedures. And they care about changes in who they can interact with. And vendors care quite a bit about when and how they have to support new features. In other words, yes, they need enticing too. Also, I was carefully not commenting on what I thought the correct choice here should be. I am only attempting to clarify the nature of MTI requirements, versus concern for the ability to add/use new capabilities. However... I am curious about the claim of large-scale, existing WebRTC support, given that none of this working group's drafts has yet received IETF approval nor been published as an RFC. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From enrico.marocco@telecomitalia.it Sat Jan 11 07:16:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C371AE020 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:16:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.678 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sfr_JY715PgO for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from TELEDG001RM001.telecomitalia.it (unknown [217.169.121.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252761AE01C for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from grfhub702rm001.griffon.local (10.19.3.9) by TELEDG001RM001.telecomitalia.it (10.19.3.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.174.1; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:16:24 +0100 Received: from MacLab.local (163.162.180.246) by smtp.telecomitalia.it (10.19.9.235) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.342.0; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:16:24 +0100 Message-ID: <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:16:23 +0100 From: Enrico Marocco User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020006000209080404050003" X-TI-Disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:16:41 -0000 --------------ms020006000209080404050003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/01/14 15:47, Dave Crocker wrote: > I am curious about the claim of large-scale, existing WebRTC > support, given that none of this working group's drafts has yet receive= d > IETF approval nor been published as an RFC. Dave, unfortunately for us who spend a big chunk of our lives in, the IETF does not have any exclusive right over the term "WebRTC". What the rest of the world call "WebRTC" can be roughly defined as a media stack that is implemented in two of the four major desktop and mobile browsers. It's hard to estimate the size of the installed base, but the numbers floating around are in the order of 10**9. The IETF role in this as vast as controversial field is -- as it should be -- document running code and help the search of rough consensus to smooth the rough edges that prevent interoperability. Video codecs being one of them. 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-A9-6OmqyEJ for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE6F1ADBD0 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.40.188]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LoaCE-1VRKD829EY-00gaNp for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:49:01 +0100 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Ted Hardie Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:49:04 +0100 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:cHXeMNvpcAsIKRfhTSf/5/421uXTR2juWTXHlyGH6NMu2gGSsxS JrIavWW5QYT+VDwOoq8hkP/z6YUqQVMIuUDmKXsst1mGS55nkshIo5AurY0HO574w393RC3 gWefpnvTuCy7ay0ioVb0KDvmmwVb5H1nUWuk9k0fPtQztI2u6PcUGJDAbVbLS4/AfXwDJM0 SkL7h6PS/4YImSp7YaE3A== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:49:14 -0000 * Ted Hardie wrote: >The straw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the >alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, >if any, against a particular alternative. ... Here is my current thinking. Some fields intentionally left blank. [ NO ] 1. All entities MUST support H.264 The current Working Group charter says "the working group will try to avoid encumbered technologies that require royalties or other encum- brances that would prevent such technologies from being easy to use". It seems many potential implementers and users would be unable to ob- tain H.264 licenses under non-discriminatory and reasonable terms for private and commercial use. Current H.264 licensing practises are also often unclear and are likely to put various parties at risk. A simple example for the latter point is the distribution of recorded WebRTC sessions on a web site that generates revenue in some form. It is likely people are going to do that, but doing so in a legally sound manner is often unduly burdensome under current licensing practises. (The second paragraph can stand on its own if a "short" form is needed.) [ ] 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Proponents of this exclusive option have not made a convincing case. I note in passing that `video/webm` has not been registered with IANA. [ NO ] 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 [ NO ] 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 [ NO ] 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 [ACCEPTABLE] 6. All entities MUST support H.261 [ NO ] 7. There is no MTI video codec This might be acceptable after properly reviewed changes to the charter. [ NO ] 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 [ACCEPTABLE] 9. All entities MUST support Theora [ NO ] 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} [ NO ] 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} [ NO ] 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 [ NO ] 13. All entities MUST support H.263 [ NO ] 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} [ACCEPTABLE] 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. [ NO ] 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Thanks, -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From ron@debian.org Sat Jan 11 08:41:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CD01AE06D for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:41:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HuTzw9xx3Vg3 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8034B1AE05B for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2014 03:11:20 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0640D4F8F3 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:11:20 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ePdtVbdY0J8E for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:11:19 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 60F394F902; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:11:19 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:11:19 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140111164119.GC3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <52D15760.4020904@alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52D15760.4020904@alvestrand.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:41:35 -0000 On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 03:38:24PM +0100, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 01/10/2014 08:10 PM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a > > little of the language used in the below and have it also be true. > > > > > > This being said, if [H.264] "VP8" proponents want it to be the video > > MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] "developing > > their video codec specifications within a recognized standards > > organization > > Coincidentally, I'm at the MPEG meeting trying to be allowed to develop > a VP8 specification within MPEG, which probably fits the definition of > "a recognized standards organization". > > So far, it's been slow going. I've been asked multiple times whether > it's actually worth the effort to continue trying. > > Since MPEG's rules are somewhat opaque to me about what I can say in > public about what goes on at MPEG, I'll leave it at that. That's the fun thing about "tweaking language" to replace something that is fundamentally relevant with something that is completely arbitrary and pretending they are the same. Next they'll tell you that you don't have the right school tie or some such. Or that this group couldn't accept a perfectly good existing RFC as a WG document relevant here. Ron From dhc@dcrocker.net Sat Jan 11 08:42:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1E01AE06E for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vl96I0B7r8G8 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9901AE05B for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0BGgJAC004246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:23 -0800 Message-ID: <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:17 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> In-Reply-To: <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:42:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:42:35 -0000 On 1/11/2014 7:16 AM, Enrico Marocco wrote: > On 11/01/14 15:47, Dave Crocker wrote: >> I am curious about the claim of large-scale, existing WebRTC >> support, given that none of this working group's drafts has yet received >> IETF approval nor been published as an RFC. > > Dave, unfortunately for us who spend a big chunk of our lives in, the > IETF does not have any exclusive right over the term "WebRTC". What the > rest of the world call "WebRTC" can be roughly defined as a media stack > that is implemented in two of the four major desktop and mobile > browsers. It's hard to estimate the size of the installed base, but the > numbers floating around are in the order of 10**9. > > The IETF role in this as vast as controversial field is -- as it should > be -- document running code and help the search of rough consensus to > smooth the rough edges that prevent interoperability. Video codecs being > one of them. Enrico, Thanks for your response It was, unfortunately, quite helpful. That is, your note was helpful but the reality you describe highlights an apparently deep and long-standing problem for the working group. I do see the non-IETF references to webrtc and implementations for it, such as [1][2]. (That I, as a Firefox user, have no idea how to try to use rtcweb from my browser speaks to some packaging and usability issues, but doesn't counter what you and the firefox documentation have said...) There have been many IETF efforts that represented continuation of existing industry efforts, with the goal of documenting and enhancing that existing work. This working group's discussion record and document-development history look very little like one of those "document existing code and enhance the spec" efforts. Such efforts might have considerable controversy, but they retain a foundation of the existing work. However the working group's history matches one of a /new/ effort working on a complex topic and gaining relatively poor group coherence. The current impasse on an MTI component looks like an example, to me. Note that I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, but am noting the disparity between that apparent reality outside the IETF, versus the history (and present) for the IETF's rtcweb working group. If this group is documenting and building upon existing services, it needs group agreement that is what it is doing, in which case compatibility with that existing operational base is a fundamental requirement. Exceptions might make sense but they need very strong justification and massive consensus. If this group is using the existing work merely for input and advice to a new effort -- that is, if the group feels to produce an incompatible service -- then that, too, needs group consensus and the effort needs a different name, so there is no (further) 'brand' confusion. d/ [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC#cite_note-10 [2] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/22.0/releasenotes/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From mohammedsraad@raadtech.com Sat Jan 11 08:46:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EFB1AE084 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tirp9Gc7ZFuS for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805D11AE081 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l18so4293228wgh.29 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Y6QP5kVdBhAebWQZrOnYYuxj/INdbM534clT1JtrEAY=; b=VvL93myI9hi9Yl0M5kI9/BL978W6QHvwlhvCoPTxyO0Rt571m4nnFn2GZy3tMfCOfR JFXGtiLCvLXg6L2uje2qaOQLdvhbmr+U3vvGQVd2P5vRTDAC19/g71UEb4rmhuJ07843 pypJwDR0weq3GBps4saKa/bRu7a2h1Lkvf4ouwhTyl+bXqBnDjvjUdAseJMDYbCJMWHL xWJz3TakTYZvFxFfDO40dcQ1r0Pp/921a2rzV3f/Xq8VXTXb588zujy53/b55wtPy6mx +ixw2/aGFLtq1+wy1yvAWJl+t5XSXY1IZMS7f2UI6IxpIDljdjaO10+xXwylJslajj9p KRsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnyi4NmSQg7xzeJPurWnJXODjgsZOT/2jJzPjYQjhHrPryfkH8DnYbh5nL9VacJcQZvOQvx MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.89.68 with SMTP id bm4mr8096718wib.0.1389458785647; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:46:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> References: <9B6C6565-4119-4A0B-8DFF-C432A5A5AA0C@apple.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:46:25 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mohammed Raad To: David Singer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462eac5957c804efb4955e Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:46:39 -0000 --f46d04462eac5957c804efb4955e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MPEG's management has created an opportunity for the standardization of a royalty free codec. David is one of the people whose efforts made this happen. MPEG has publicly announced that they will be conducting a technical evaluation of three options that are on the table. One is VP8 (now called VCB by MPEG), another is AVC/h264, the third is a codec being developed as an exploration (called IVC). We will see how genuine the MPEG membership is about allowing royalty free video coding to be part of the international standardization space this week. We just have to wait until Friday evening San Jose time. Mohammed On Jan 11, 2014 11:14 AM, "David Singer" wrote: > I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you > write as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort t= o > do this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how muc= h > this would help the entire industry, and not just this effort. > > > On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount wrote: > > > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they > should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this grou= p > that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convince= d > their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most > likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue > for it to become an MIT. > > David Singer > Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --f46d04462eac5957c804efb4955e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    MPEG's management has created an opportunity for the sta= ndardization of a royalty free codec. David is one of the people whose effo= rts made this happen.

    MPEG has publicly announced that they will be conducting a t= echnical evaluation of three options that are on the table. One is VP8 (now= called VCB by MPEG), another is AVC/h264, the third is a codec being devel= oped as an exploration (called IVC).

    We will see how genuine the MPEG membership is about allowin= g royalty free video coding to be part of the international standardization= space this week. We just have to wait until Friday evening San Jose time.<= /p>

    Mohammed

    On Jan 11, 2014 11:14 AM, "David Singer&quo= t; <singer@apple.com> wrote:<= br type=3D"attribution">
    I suspect it=92s an artifact of written communications, as it seems you wri= te as if this were not being tried, but I assure you that the effort to do = this at MPEG (and elsewhere) is ongoing. Some of us do realize how much thi= s would help the entire industry, and not just this effort.


    On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:53 , Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

    > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they= should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this group= that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced= their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most li= kely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for = it to become an MIT.

    David Singer
    Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    --f46d04462eac5957c804efb4955e-- From dhc@dcrocker.net Sat Jan 11 08:54:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE851AE059 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSagGPy8tAgu for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07B31AE01E for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0BGsIlV004400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:21 -0800 Message-ID: <52D17738.3010500@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:16 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:54:33 -0000 On 1/11/2014 8:42 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > If this group is using the existing work merely for input and advice to > a new effort -- that is, if the group feels to produce an incompatible > service -- then that, too, needs group consensus and the effort needs a > different name, so there is no (further) 'brand' confusion. Sorry. Typo. The paragraph should have read: If this group is using the existing work merely for input and advice to a new effort -- that is, if the group feels it acceptable to produce an incompatible service -- then that, too, needs group consensus and the effort needs a different name, so there is no (further) 'brand' confusion. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From mohammedsraad@raadtech.com Sat Jan 11 08:58:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB0D1AE069 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IUFDNvQw1ETY for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com (mail-wg0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD78F1AE068 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b13so4953657wgh.19 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=d+P4Bi4q0nW63m1Zjcr8I3s25N2ghv9OjC5zyPnz9Yo=; b=eA79Cn/tTEXvcsNVag691YVEzA8NlQbcnk0ze6s4uvvuCGYkWMwnwRAzcFRXCo5Qz6 VI3kQNu6JPv4nuR6N5nhDNO4ArnhqICfl7a6Oqm3FEKoPUjjrXm4ip7x5EyoEtSCUcuP N1qmsN0lfe2V4UxxMGKI9NY0XXBJ1ov4b3mYm6CBsQhtrOr5K31fe3vN5zAtKry1Q9p+ iSzTo1PIRPjDBrAI9pYZbcOoBRyUyN/wwu29JzhTSvOQ3nYXcd3h8pZ0sFVcoNctCEoa HgjVXPOlVrDT2Rj9tvEox+cMQuo3Aq+nND9fRjymhU0FYPMg8MhBz2QdtaKBJgQOiUt3 LbIg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnBwEclt7LSmvXQ/bhffz4dV2bHBTBw7tN7QyUt9PVyecjD7aUutV/xCHzBLADTVnQnWyqI MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.12.20 with SMTP id em20mr8215578wid.0.1389459479989; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:57:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:57:59 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mohammed Raad To: "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdfa2bc240d04efb4be56 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:58:13 -0000 --f46d043bdfa2bc240d04efb4be56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, if all those interested in this topic on this mailing list contacted their ISO national bodies with the message that there is an urgent need for the development of a serious codec for the web environment, perhaps those of us trying to get VP8 standardized would actually find ISO standardization a less hostile place to operate in. Mohammed On Jan 11, 2014 6:11 AM, "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" < matthew.kaufman@skype.net> wrote: > Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a little > of the language used in the below and have it also be true. > > > > For your convenience using [] to delete and =93=94 to add: > > > > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that > there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to [an > IPR license fee encumbered video codec] =93a codec developed outside of a > recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations=94 a= s an > MTI. So, unless [H.264 licensing policy] =93the IPR risk associated with > shipping VP8=94 changes, [H.264] =93VP8=94 will never get consensus as vi= deo > codec MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy > interop,] =93VP8, like the readily available single implementation with n= o > associated license fees=94 is irrelevant (I think most of the people on t= he > list agree to them anyway). For [a fairly large group of people] =93quite= a > few people, including at least two major browser vendors=94 having [H.264= ] > =93VP8=94 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this par= t of > specification or not supporting WebRTC. [H.264] =93VP8=94 codec support i= s a > hard and uncircumventable implementation block. =93(in both cases because= of > the lawyers, not the engineers)=94 Binary download offer helps quite a bi= t > but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [Cisco] =93Goog= le=94 > changes policy or disappears). > > > > This being said, if [H.264] =93VP8=94 proponents want it to be the video = MTI, > they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] =93developing their > video codec specifications within a recognized standards organization and > making multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk > through indemnification=94 not on convincing this group that [H.264] =93V= P8=94 is > great. [I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convinced their own > companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have > the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to > become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the > arguments for [H.264] =93any MTI video codec for RTCWEB=94 are a waste of > perfectly good electrons. > > > > Matthew Kaufman > > > > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman > Shpount > *Sent:* Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI > > > > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that > there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to an I= PR > license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264 licensing > policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguin= g > about all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop, is irrelevant > (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fair= ly > large group of people having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into > either ignoring this part of specification or not supporting WebRTC. H.26= 4 > codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implementation block. Binary > download offer helps quite a bit but does not address all the issues (lik= e > what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears). > > > > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they > should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this grou= p > that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents convince= d > their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most > likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue > for it to become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all t= he > arguments for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good electrons. > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --f46d043bdfa2bc240d04efb4be56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    You know, if all those interested in this topic on this mail= ing list contacted their ISO national bodies with the message that there is= an urgent need for the development of a serious codec for the web environm= ent, perhaps those of us trying to get VP8 standardized would actually find= ISO standardization a less hostile place to operate in.

    Mohammed

    On Jan 11, 2014 6:11 AM, "Matthew Kaufman (= SKYPE)" <matthew.kaufm= an@skype.net> wrote:

    Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and twe= ak only a little of the language used in the below and have it also be true= .

    =A0<= /p>

    For your convenience usin= g [] to delete and =93=94 to add:

    =A0<= /p>

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to [an IPR license fee encumbered video codec] =93a codec develope= d outside of a recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations=94 as an MTI. So, unless [= H.264 licensing policy] =93the IPR risk associated with shipping VP8=94 cha= nges, [H.264] =93VP8=94 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguin= g about all the other benefits of [H.264, like legacy interop,] =93VP8, like the readily available single implementa= tion with no associated license fees=94=A0is irrelevant (I think most of th= e people on the list agree to them anyway). For [a fairly large group of pe= ople] =93quite a few people, including at least two major browser vendors=94 having [H.264] =93VP8=94 as MTI video c= odec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not = supporting WebRTC. [H.264] =93VP8=94 codec support is a hard and uncircumve= ntable implementation block. =93(in both cases because of the lawyers, not the engineers)=94 Binary download offer helps = quite a bit but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [Cisc= o] =93Google=94 changes policy or disappears).

    =A0

    This being said, if [H.264] =93VP8=94 proponents wan= t it to be the video MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing polic= y,] =93developing their video codec specifications within a recognized stan= dards organization and making multiple implementations available and/or mitigating IPR risk through indemnification=94 not on con= vincing this group that [H.264] =93VP8=94 is great. [I would even argue tha= t if H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy re= garding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to bec= ome an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the arguments f= or [H.264] =93any MTI video codec for RTCWEB=94 are a waste of perfectly go= od electrons.

    =A0

    Matthew Kaufman

    =A0<= /p>

    From: rtcweb= [mailto:rtcwe= b-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
    Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf= .org
    Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI

    =A0

    I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses = on this list that there is a substantial group of people here that will nev= er agree to an IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless= H.264 licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about all the other b= enefits of H.264, like legacy interop,=A0is irrelevant (I think most of the= people on the list agree to them anyway). For a fairly large group of peop= le having H.264 as MTI video codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not supp= orting WebRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and uncircumventable implement= ation block. Binary download offer helps quite a bit but does not address a= ll the issues (like what happens if Cisco changes policy or disappears).

    =A0

    This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be t= he video MTI, they should work on changing the licensing policy, not on con= vincing this group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 pr= oponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencu= mbered H.264 and I would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT.= But, until H.264 licensing policy changes, all the arguments for H.264 are= a waste of perfectly good electrons.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --f46d043bdfa2bc240d04efb4be56-- From ron@debian.org Sat Jan 11 09:07:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E811AE08D for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:07:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gggKx1rBaheq for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BDC1AE085 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2014 03:37:00 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4B54F8F3; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:36:59 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Yq9cfNsxMfCe; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:36:59 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 529E84F902; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:36:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:36:59 +1030 From: Ron To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Message-ID: <20140111170659.GD3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:07:12 -0000 On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 08:42:17AM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: > > There have been many IETF efforts that represented continuation of > existing industry efforts, with the goal of documenting and > enhancing that existing work. > > This working group's discussion record and document-development > history look very little like one of those "document existing code > and enhance the spec" efforts. I think you might be misunderstanding what has happened here. This group isn't rubber stamping work that was already done, you're looking at the experimental implementations of the work that this group is defining. That they are already functional, and already deployed, and already being used, is just an indication of how far this work has already come - and user feedback from them is certainly valuable to figuring out what work remains to be done. That they only support VP8 as the video codec is simply a function of it having been impossible for them to licence H.264. Precisely the concern that many other people here have been voicing. That the already established user base may be the size it is puts the lie to the idea that this will fail if we don't choose H.264. The "legacy devices" that people say only support H.264 will already need other compatibility shims or firmware updates to support WebRTC. As they exist today they are already completely non-interoperable with it. They simply don't make herrings that are more red than this. Any action that makes those devices interoperable with WebRTC could equally make them interoperable with its current de-facto MTI codec. It really is that simple. Ron From dhc@dcrocker.net Sat Jan 11 09:17:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF5B1AE047 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6pkQAR4M6Nu for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FC31ADEBE for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0BHHZOC004768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:38 -0800 Message-ID: <52D17CAD.8000202@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:33 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> <20140111170659.GD3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140111170659.GD3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:17:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:17:58 -0000 On 1/11/2014 9:06 AM, Ron wrote: > I think you might be misunderstanding what has happened here. > This group isn't rubber stamping work that was already done, > you're looking at the experimental implementations of the work > that this group is defining. From the working group charter: This work will be done primarily by using already defined protocols or functionalities. If there is identification of missing protocols or functionalities, such work can be requested to be done in another working group with a suitable charter or by requests for chartering it in this WG or another WG. That's not rubber-stamping (which, of course, the IETF never does...) but it also is not starting with a clean sheet. Again, the tone of this groups discussion history does not match document-and-enhance. It matches "starting fresh". The latter needs a different name, to distinguish it from the installed base. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ron@debian.org Sat Jan 11 09:29:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD501AE0A1 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:29:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ifj9lSYiUEQP for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BFD1AE094 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2014 03:59:43 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822EA4F8F3; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:59:42 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id pSVbQZYCdAvS; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:59:42 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0C304F902; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:59:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:59:41 +1030 From: Ron To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Message-ID: <20140111172941.GE3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> <20140111170659.GD3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <52D17CAD.8000202@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52D17CAD.8000202@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:29:55 -0000 On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 09:17:33AM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/11/2014 9:06 AM, Ron wrote: > >I think you might be misunderstanding what has happened here. > >This group isn't rubber stamping work that was already done, > >you're looking at the experimental implementations of the work > >that this group is defining. > > > From the working group charter: > > This work will be done primarily by using already defined protocols or > functionalities. If there is identification of missing protocols or > functionalities, such work can be requested to be done in another > working group with a suitable charter or by requests for chartering it > in this WG or another WG. This refers to things like SDP, RTP, HTTP etc. Protocols already defined by the IETF (or W3C), not by the WebRTC implementations that didn't exist yet when the charter was written. It's just about not reinventing wheels that are already suited to the task and already well standardised. Ron From singer@apple.com Sat Jan 11 09:55:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86411AE0B6 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sScrSOllyTCd for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FAB1AE0A3 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay4.apple.com ([17.128.113.87]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZ9005CS0GUPOI0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807157-b7ff46d000001540-df-52d1859eff65 Received: from marigold.apple.com (marigold.apple.com [17.128.115.132]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 16.79.05440.E9581D25; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.153.42.203] (unknown [17.153.42.203]) by marigold.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01 (7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZ900MFY0GUJP00@marigold.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:55:41 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: To: Mohammed Raad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FDcojuv9WKQwZSzKhZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY8tszYJTWhV9N1YzNTAeVOpi5OSQEDCRmDfpNROELSZx4d56 ti5GLg4hgUlMEsc372SHcBYySby8sZ2xi5GDg1lAT+L+RS2QBl4gc+O82cwgtrCAksS5Rz3s IDabgKrEgznHwMo5BYIlLt/IAQmzAIWfdE9kgpjiJdH3JBUkzCygLfHk3QVWiIk2Em/am6G2 fmCU+NVzBCwhArTq6tvtbCC9EgKyEvNPl05gFJiFcM8sJPfMQjJ1ASPzKkaBotScxEoTvcSC gpxUveT83E2M4IArDN/B+G+Z1SFGAQ5GJR5eD94LQUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeCdHXgwS4k1J rKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzrs2BahaID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAyGxrc33P+rX/2tzu FzDdkD0WFMTO7Sl90bDCwKj94aTrEy993+55JPOSSXei6q7dFzxvW3yv3Kxv821CvVKVbVB2 bGfJiisxjyr6C99mVhw6UHaZN+5Qps+uN5KyulGubzxn3/jC52h55HjofFcXrvBmyU0Ljbcp LnTh6/w5SXnlqrR7XNGLlViKMxINtZiLihMBg0SMfjQCAAA= Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:55:55 -0000 On Jan 11, 2014, at 8:57 , Mohammed Raad = wrote: > You know, if all those interested in this topic on this mailing list = contacted their ISO national bodies with the message that there is an = urgent need for the development of a serious codec for the web = environment, perhaps those of us trying to get VP8 standardized would = actually find ISO standardization a less hostile place to operate in. Yes, I think it=92s clear that the advantages for the industry in = general, that having an RF codec would bring, have not reached everyone = who has the ability to influence the outcome. Getting involved, and = making a good case (particularly to companies that hold relevant patent = portfolios, and their national bodies) would be helpful. (I would suggest that such cases focus on why it=92s not only a =91good = thing=92, but why it=92s also in the interests of the patent holders to = do this.) >=20 > Mohammed >=20 > On Jan 11, 2014 6:11 AM, "Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)" = wrote: > Unfortunately, you can substitute VP8 for H.264 and tweak only a = little of the language used in the below and have it also be true. >=20 > =20 >=20 > For your convenience using [] to delete and =93=94 to add: >=20 > =20 >=20 > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that = there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to [an = IPR license fee encumbered video codec] =93a codec developed outside of = a recognized standards body and with outstanding IETF IPR declarations=94 = as an MTI. So, unless [H.264 licensing policy] =93the IPR risk = associated with shipping VP8=94 changes, [H.264] =93VP8=94 will never = get consensus as video codec MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits = of [H.264, like legacy interop,] =93VP8, like the readily available = single implementation with no associated license fees=94 is irrelevant = (I think most of the people on the list agree to them anyway). For [a = fairly large group of people] =93quite a few people, including at least = two major browser vendors=94 having [H.264] =93VP8=94 as MTI video codec = will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or not = supporting WebRTC. [H.264] =93VP8=94 codec support is a hard and = uncircumventable implementation block. =93(in both cases because of the = lawyers, not the engineers)=94 Binary download offer helps quite a bit = but does not address all the issues (like what happens if [Cisco] = =93Google=94 changes policy or disappears). >=20 > =20 >=20 > This being said, if [H.264] =93VP8=94 proponents want it to be the = video MTI, they should work on [changing the licensing policy,] = =93developing their video codec specifications within a recognized = standards organization and making multiple implementations available = and/or mitigating IPR risk through indemnification=94 not on convincing = this group that [H.264] =93VP8=94 is great. [I would even argue that if = H.264 proponents convinced their own companies to change IPR policy = regarding H.264, we would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I = would be the first person argue for it to become an MIT. But, until = H.264 licensing policy changes,] all the arguments for [H.264] =93any = MTI video codec for RTCWEB=94 are a waste of perfectly good electrons. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Matthew Kaufman >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman = Shpount > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:53 AM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI >=20 > =20 >=20 > I hope it should be fairly clear from the responses on this list that = there is a substantial group of people here that will never agree to an = IPR license fee encumbered video codec as an MTI. So, unless H.264 = licensing policy changes, H.264 will never get consensus as video codec = MTI. Arguing about all the other benefits of H.264, like legacy interop, = is irrelevant (I think most of the people on the list agree to them = anyway). For a fairly large group of people having H.264 as MTI video = codec will translate into either ignoring this part of specification or = not supporting WebRTC. H.264 codec support is a hard and = uncircumventable implementation block. Binary download offer helps quite = a bit but does not address all the issues (like what happens if Cisco = changes policy or disappears). >=20 > =20 >=20 > This being said, if H.264 proponents want it to be the video MTI, they = should work on changing the licensing policy, not on convincing this = group that H.264 is great. I would even argue that if H.264 proponents = convinced their own companies to change IPR policy regarding H.264, we = would most likely have the unencumbered H.264 and I would be the first = person argue for it to become an MIT. But, until H.264 licensing policy = changes, all the arguments for H.264 are a waste of perfectly good = electrons. >=20 > _____________ > Roman Shpount >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From mohammedsraad@raadtech.com Sat Jan 11 10:37:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092211AE0D9 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e6JCsR78sAuC for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f170.google.com (mail-we0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6641AE119 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id u57so5028489wes.29 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:41 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=2gYfWFY9oR7gHmxRse01U82sggu33jQu3F9Je+9vyPQ=; b=mfNGfPGjvr8XwxkIXY4CCtntSxmEyUgwPna2YVtgyMZ3HiFmBo3YvSfNeckJnE0pfr 31Z3NxXCYQzMXtNNk5GSouHRZkiYtmO/M2ZJiMmsRpPokmOdYhaJYhHggUgFWtFu6zHd 4kVrpye03aq3RIFO5/QiMCIDUKbCNIls4KTYNcN6VUX/rtv/L0O1472JCo7h/d7D6EaQ +Uxl8AobOXv2OuSAGkIuMPd2pS9IOmvnopUmqdCu+T4NDUl0t/wYMXKiR0H++vJy26Cf IgCUUgA2t+sFVL8Q4UBAKUqj7AXGMmrnv9OqmITeFYR3dZMT2hxusUU0FRlwP4CMYl3/ 8Shg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQno7Khx5tbHnVMyjlW0J16JxI0dZl47lpqoAN5rRizLIaqHNhW1qXqcMvrM+Cd94plr6cBm MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.36.2 with SMTP id m2mr8937680wij.0.1389465461278; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:37:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:37:41 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mohammed Raad To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f5032c63f632a04efb6230a Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives (Mohammed Raad) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:37:55 -0000 --e89a8f5032c63f632a04efb6230a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Here's my input to this poll: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: My technical opinion is that VP8 is a better option. Added to that the fact that H.264 has been the target of what seems to be successful litigation over IP that is not part of the current licensing pool. This has not happened to VP8 yet, nonetheless getting H.264 IP owners to develop some sort of workable unencumbered solution around H.264 has been like herding cats. I don't see that as a viable option if web video coding is to continue to be evolved. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In my opinion, VP8 is technically better and has been shown to be more defend-able against IPR licensing claims so far, so there is no reason to force entities to support both. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I don't think this would help interoperability if that is the objective. Also, browsers are now deployed on a multitude of platforms with varying capability, why must these platforms be burdened with more codecs to support than other platforms? 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This is not a technically justifiable option in my opinion. 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Even if we have a group of MTI codecs, that would be better than this, at least in that case people can develop useful transcoding platforms. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This makes no sense. 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: A technically inferior solution that has the same IPR problems as any of the better technical solutions. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This reads as though this is a play on words to make the implementation of both VP8 and H.264 more acceptable to the market. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The same problem as (10). 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Whilst this may make sense as a consensus option, it practically does not resolve the IPR problem that many have expressed (and have experienced) with H.264. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not a good technical option. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as (10). 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: A technically inferior solution when there is a genuinely better alternative. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Throwing this in simply increases the level of disagreement (I'm not objecting to the technical merits, just that it is not an option that helps resolve the issues the WG is having in selecting an MTI). -- Mohammed Raad, PhD. Partner RAADTECH CONSULTING P.O. Box 113 Warrawong NSW 2502 Australia Phone: +61 414451478 Email: mohammedsraad@raadtech.com --e89a8f5032c63f632a04efb6230a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Here's my input to this poll:

    1. = All en= tities MUST support H.264

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: My techni= cal opinion is that VP8 is a better option. Added to that the fact that H.2= 64 has been the target of what seems to be successful litigation over IP th= at is not part of the current licensing pool. This has not happened to VP8 = yet, nonetheless getting H.264 IP owners to develop some sort of workable u= nencumbered solution around H.264 has been like herding cats. I don't s= ee that as a viable option if web video coding is to continue to be evolved= .=A0

    2. All en= tities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES.

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All en= tities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: In my opi= nion, VP8 is technically better and has been shown to be more defend-able a= gainst IPR licensing claims so far, so there is no reason to force entities= to support both.

    4. Browse= rs MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least on= e of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: I don'= ;t think this would help interoperability if that is the objective. Also, b= rowsers are now deployed on a multitude of platforms with varying capabilit= y, why must these platforms be burdened with more codecs to support than ot= her platforms?=A0

    5. All en= tities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=A0=

    6. All en= tities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This is n= ot a technically justifiable option in my opinion.

    7. There = is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Even if w= e have a group of MTI codecs, that would be better than this, at least in t= hat case people can develop useful transcoding platforms.

    8. All en= tities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

        9. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      1. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This make= s no sense.

    9. All en= tities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: A technic= ally inferior solution that has the same IPR problems as any of the better = technical solutions.

    10. All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    11. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    12. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This read= s as though this is a play on words to make the implementation of both VP8 = and H.264 more acceptable to the market.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

  • = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

  • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The same = problem as (10).

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support enc= oding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    1. Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Whilst th= is may make sense as a consensus option, it practically does not resolve th= e IPR problem that many have expressed (and have experienced) with H.264.

  • All en= tities MUST support H.263

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not a goo= d technical option.

  • All en= tities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    • <= ol style=3D"margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">

  • = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

  • = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: same as (= 10).

  • All en= tities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: A technic= ally inferior solution when there is a genuinely better alternative.=

  • All en= tities MUST support Motion JPEG

    1. = Are yo= u in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    2. = Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Throwing = this in simply increases the level of disagreement (I'm not objecting t= o the technical merits, just that it is not an option that helps resolve th= e issues the WG is having in selecting an MTI).


    --
    Mohammed Raad, PhD.
    Partner
    RAAD= TECH CONSULTING
    P.O. Box 113
    Warrawong
    NSW 2502 Australia
    Phone= : +61 414451478
    Email: mohammedsraad@raadtech.com
    --e89a8f5032c63f632a04efb6230a-- From svein@comoyo.com Sat Jan 11 10:44:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985431AE142 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2g9R518RXOco for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f177.google.com (mail-ie0-f177.google.com [209.85.223.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FCE1AE067 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id ar20so2283607iec.22 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lZ3DfivatyXn9GhUhf7MHtPoWhLq16vEgYxz6tGE6KU=; b=ROqAUjw/bn7+0tDbCI87WnAaSKH51ROT8j2pzqeAXO7haBbKbHiUPLNy8EePbT0fHP vlwveDQOW5OB4rIQ3C6V4tFzDgftwbLWpNa3voEHMqVhJPWRx+ImgFipNvF2OyiQcS2B c+XjeogIckm9snesFCcoSHpC65fkLKYMoyX32E7eNAUtjV2Op0H4hArfIlmchTZQJzuc tpBs8+K+/9/4mDB96A0boHDbl7t/ECr7L5TsqDz3UkzK1DQDNOlMoTEHxOcceh6EiKMF xOpubz8f9lb+sVGzmxvFmbw0+7xPmaAwHl5QXLHDyFHarJsR5jVDEJtU75GHKGI+fgkS 8BsA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkgqxgFkvQ+TzrjLYvQ/qjnC6VSlVDuqra3zulEpf5DE5FFdqLN6aZz3aH0XifJaA4lsBT5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.38 with SMTP id lp6mr10628753igb.30.1389465861577; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.103.9 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:44:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 19:44:21 +0100 Message-ID: From: Svein Yngvar Willassen To: Tim Panton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015383601b7b6804efb63bf2 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] on Svein Yngvar Willassen 's choices was- Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:44:33 -0000 --089e015383601b7b6804efb63bf2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Tim Panton wrote: > > On 10 Jan 2014, at 20:51, Svein Yngvar Willassen wrote: > > > > > =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = No > > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so plea= se > summarize them: Not always having a common codec requires transcoding. > This option will create a barrier for extending web based services to > mobile devices. > > I'm not sure I understand how you see transcoding happening. > The only occurrence I can see is where one non-browser app e.g. 'facebook > for ios' implements only h264 and a different > non-browser app e.g. 'linkedin for android' implements only VP8 AND users > of these two apps choose to attempt to call each other. > > I'd humbly suggest that the codec transcoding would be the least of their > problems, it is unlikely that 2 single purpose apps > will be expected to interop. It isn't even clear that it is desirable. > That's kinda the point of the 'browser' distinction - it isn't about > laptop vs mobile it is > multi purpose vs single purpose. or Generic vs Dedicated. > Is all forms of browsing on all kinds of devices included in the term "Browsers", including WebViews embedded in other applications? However, I'm not sure I would change my position should the answer to the above questions be yes. There may be other entities that are not browsers that should be interoperable with each other. Two different native video conferencing solutions could for example claim to be WebRTC compliant without being interoperable with each other. -- Svein Willassen, ph.d. https://appear.in --089e015383601b7b6804efb63bf2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On S= at, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>= wrote:

    On 10 Jan 2014, at 20:51, Svein Yngvar Willassen <svein@appear.in> wrote:

    >
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entiti= es MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =95 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/N= o/Acceptable]: No
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =95 Do you have any objections to this opt= ion, if so please summarize them: =A0Not always having a common codec requi= res transcoding. This option will create a barrier for extending web based = services to mobile devices.

    I'm not sure I understand how you see transcoding happening.
    The only occurrence I can see is where one non-browser app e.g. 'facebo= ok for ios' implements only h264 and a different
    non-browser app e.g. 'linkedin for android' implements only VP8 AND= users of these two apps choose to attempt to call each other.

    I'd humbly suggest that the codec transcoding would be the least of the= ir problems, it is unlikely that 2 single purpose apps
    will be expected to interop. It isn't even clear that it is desirable.<= br> That's kinda the point of the 'browser' distinction - it isn= 9;t about laptop vs mobile it is
    multi purpose vs single purpose. or Generic vs Dedicated.
    <= div>
    Is all forms of browsing on all kinds of devices include= d in the term "Browsers", including WebViews embedded in other ap= plications? =A0

    However, I'm not sure I would change my position sh= ould the answer to the above questions be yes. There may be other entities = that are not browsers that should be interoperable with each other. Two dif= ferent native video conferencing solutions could for example claim to be We= bRTC compliant without being interoperable with each other.=A0

    --
    Svein Willassen, ph.d.
    =A0
    --089e015383601b7b6804efb63bf2-- From jib@mozilla.com Sat Jan 11 12:16:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAE71AE020 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:16:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.815 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.815 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cqrN_0BlbKla for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:16:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EA81ADFF3 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:16:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (c-68-80-94-125.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [68.80.94.125]) (Authenticated sender: jbruaroey@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0115FF249F; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:16:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D1A69B.7020303@mozilla.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:16:27 -0500 From: Jan-Ivar Bruaroey Organization: Mozilla User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , Cullen Jennings References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040806000309090305020004" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:16:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040806000309090305020004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Does not achieve interoperability, because it is not FOSS. - Still license encumbered. Even with decoder binary gift, this is still the blue pill. - Encoding is key to interoperability. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Risk. It might be prudent to wait a bit for Nokia claim to unfold (or fold). - Still best option until Daala. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - A compromise that marginalizes FOSS (license-free gets noncomply-labeled). 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - What's a non-browser? Weakness of tying limits to names. - Not interoperable. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Not interoperable. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - I'm unfamiliar with H.261, but claims of low quality makes me uninterested. 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Not interoperable. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Interoperably indistinguishable from #6 to me. 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - I'm unfamiliar with H.261, but claims of low quality make me uninterested. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - I'm unfamiliar with H.263, but claims of IPR make me uninterested + seems old. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Trojan! - At first seems like pragmatic result of #3 (why encode both when unnecessary) - But if few devices encode VP8 then even non-compliers cannot ignore licensing. - Hence not interoperable by my definition. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - I'm unfamiliar with H.263, but claims of IPR make me uninterested + seems old. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Theora seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Trojan! Incoming call, hello? - If few devices encode Theora then even non-compliers cannot ignore licensing. - Theora seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Too bandwidth demanding. Clarification: Why I call out "Trojan" in two answers above: Consistent with my other answers, a key to interoperability in my view is accepting (even non-compliant) license-unencumbered nodes in a network. I.e. Both sides of a call negotiation must agree to either of multiple formats, or "both" isn't truly both. - Thus, any question that separates encoding from decoding I call a Trojan, because incoming calls rule. I.e. If the other side requires a license, I need a license. True, I avoid an encoding license, so the distinction has merit, but beware of the licensing consequence when answering. .: Jan-Ivar :. --------------040806000309090305020004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Does not achieve interoperability, because it is not FOSS.
        - Still license encumbered. Even with decoder binary gift, this is still the blue pill.
        - Encoding is key to interoperability.

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Risk. It might be prudent to wait a bit for Nokia claim to unfold (or fold).
        - Still best option until Daala.

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - A compromise that marginalizes FOSS (license-free gets noncomply-labeled).

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - What's a non-browser? Weakness of tying limits to names.
        - Not interoperable.

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Not interoperable.

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - I'm unfamiliar with         H.261, but claims of low quality makes me uninterested.

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Not interoperable.

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Interoperably indistinguishable from #6 to me.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8.

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - I'm unfamiliar with H.261, but claims of low quality make me uninterested.

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - I'm unfamiliar with H.263, but claims of IPR make me uninterested + seems old.

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Trojan!
        - At first seems like pragmatic result of #3 (why encode both when unnecessary)
        - But if few devices encode VP8 then even non-compliers cannot ignore licensing.
        - Hence not interoperable by my definition.

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        -         I'm unfamiliar with H.263, but claims of IPR make me uninterested + seems old.

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Theora seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8.

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Trojan! Incoming call, hello?
        - If few devices encode Theora then even non-compliers cannot ignore licensing.
        - Theora seems like a less famous yet-to-be-sued VP8.

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        - Too bandwidth demanding.


    Clarification: Why I call out "Trojan" in two answers above: Consistent with my other answers, a key to interoperability in my view is accepting (even non-compliant) license-unencumbered nodes in a network. I.e. Both sides of a call negotiation must agree to either of multiple formats, or "both" isn't truly both. - Thus, any question that separates encoding from decoding I call a Trojan, because incoming calls rule. I.e. If the other side requires a license, I need a license. True, I avoid an encoding license, so the distinction has merit, but beware of the licensing consequence when answering.

    .: Jan-Ivar :.

    --------------040806000309090305020004-- From ekr@rtfm.com Sat Jan 11 13:28:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C411A1F1B for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:28:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3QjUgKT_m8th for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com (mail-wi0-f179.google.com [209.85.212.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4AA01A1F05 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id z2so873113wiv.6 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:27:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=+C4IqcqXQfti5mgAH1gb6N/oBBAaUdL2Nw+kjbWR6A0=; b=KJhXi+DjU4rlOFxRKgl4fsXt77G+QAfD6vXwwimeol+ftH8gKHbXDzcJ/s7bfSyzCk a75EVnLpdk760A5AjvGVZ2JayfA/J/mFR+jlsAcxTKLS0Yx2WEquL4cX+7uq8x7XqQex +dVb1CChEsZEnyPO4D+sjyztuasUYhwHIxeBMVXlStMZi29XDe6wrDeyktNzDMCn/J1X Vz5vnbfdDJ+cLZmTQB7DV1un5E0auRsx9SHiXbDQ8hGL1a2/B0bStFZTw0EGiNfzvRLn KaeVa0cTP+TzFis8pMoYOPMi+HxcKO2Lxfw/tnrGTxKyaSOzYIeIaTYZQKmmVI34DgNs nyqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlEh3o3duMkXl4jPwUZUROL3qDjbQru8aGj9XYlIjbqL2WennWfIbV8yDjP/Rpx2LQOCxuv X-Received: by 10.194.187.101 with SMTP id fr5mr501147wjc.76.1389475670865; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:27:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.54.194 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:27:09 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.173] In-Reply-To: <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:27:09 -0800 Message-ID: To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:28:04 -0000 On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/11/2014 7:16 AM, Enrico Marocco wrote: >> >> On 11/01/14 15:47, Dave Crocker wrote: >>> >>> I am curious about the claim of large-scale, existing WebRTC >>> support, given that none of this working group's drafts has yet received >>> IETF approval nor been published as an RFC. >> >> >> Dave, unfortunately for us who spend a big chunk of our lives in, the >> IETF does not have any exclusive right over the term "WebRTC". What the >> rest of the world call "WebRTC" can be roughly defined as a media stack >> that is implemented in two of the four major desktop and mobile >> browsers. It's hard to estimate the size of the installed base, but the >> numbers floating around are in the order of 10**9. >> >> The IETF role in this as vast as controversial field is -- as it should >> be -- document running code and help the search of rough consensus to >> smooth the rough edges that prevent interoperability. Video codecs being >> one of them. > > > > Enrico, > > Thanks for your response It was, unfortunately, quite helpful. > > That is, your note was helpful but the reality you describe highlights an > apparently deep and long-standing problem for the working group. > > I do see the non-IETF references to webrtc and implementations for it, such > as [1][2]. (That I, as a Firefox user, have no idea how to try to use > rtcweb from my browser speaks to some packaging and usability issues, but > doesn't counter what you and the firefox documentation have said...) Actually, I would hope you wouldn't need to know how. I.e., the intended use mode for WebRTC is that sites just offer you the ability to make WebRTC calls as part of their ordinary Web UI. The users would hopefully just be able to use the feature on a site which offered it. -Ekr From derhoermi@gmx.net Sat Jan 11 13:56:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DA71A1F62 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:56:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBd7aG1lwWlQ for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D731A1F61 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.40.188]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lz0aC-1VFaXM0fom-014Gm8 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:56:29 +0100 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: David Singer Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:56:31 +0100 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:PXFh7MsZgAcn5MXJCfNjorRM6S2hguJFoC/WPcXwoSKIpRsHOjr mX3Y2GybuFm3dp4OebfQtzG/2eAyKThs3TkpuKfASr6Mup5jUhqFRFHZvnNIzP+R/nbOntA gSsIba4uZpYJiRr3aal/F+LAy9XhlIofOcaL3Y0QJYihwaOtnAf6yLDs9MZrd1W0KOnHKnt 5FHAmMsfOhK68ZgBNlpDg== Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:56:42 -0000 * David Singer wrote: >Yes, I think it’s clear that the advantages for the industry in general, >that having an RF codec would bring, have not reached everyone who has >the ability to influence the outcome. Getting involved, and making a >good case (particularly to companies that hold relevant patent >portfolios, and their national bodies) would be helpful. Can I assume that it is non-trivial to infer who in particular is in need of convincing from easily accessibly public records? I do not re- call anyone handing out lists. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From singer@apple.com Sat Jan 11 14:07:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891F31A1F78 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id alXBrN2OaCKw for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BD61A1F61 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay7.apple.com ([17.128.113.101]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZ900588C3XPOV0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807165-b7f8e6d000004de8-01-52d1c08d351c Received: from chicory.apple.com (chicory.apple.com [17.128.115.99]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 5B.BF.19944.D80C1D25; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.153.42.241] (unknown [17.153.42.241]) by chicory.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01 (7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZ900FBAC3W7L30@chicory.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:07:09 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <816BCA72-36A0-49A0-8FD5-B679808A6FEB@apple.com> References: To: Bjoern Hoehrmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCcrNt74GKQwe2dghZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY+r5ooJTPBUP7l9iaWDs4Opi5OSQEDCR+HX9GRuELSZx4d56 IJuLQ0ign0ni8YafzBDOfCaJSbOns3QxcnAwC+hJ3L+oBdLAC2RunDebGcQWFlCSOPeohx3E ZhNQlXgw5xgjiM0p4CVxZe9eFhCbBSjecXsfK4jNLCAs8f3xPRYIW1viybsLrBAzbSROHFvA BLH3MZPE/tMvwa4TEdCQeLrsMDPIDRICshLzT5dOYBSYhXDRLCQXzUIydQEj8ypGgaLUnMRK c73EgoKcVL3k/NxNjOCgK0zdwdi43OoQowAHoxIPrwfvhSAh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrwsmy8G CfGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREuddnwJULZCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRqYAyemcRx68ej 7uNzw/XkRRUWV+7fuixebk/mrtrVK718zZO0Lv8taZ60uMFZJ73+wqWWxFvmP57FL27+NKvS 9PTkdV0TKxmljaKED4crX7Ha8r5z0gWtZ61z1suuuLv+yxVGM9HVOZttN7bpps86eem50c/V Rzutbc3fr54teObFhryZTw8+r36sxFKckWioxVxUnAgAOxCocDYCAAA= Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:07:21 -0000 On Jan 11, 2014, at 13:56 , Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * David Singer wrote: >> Yes, I think it=92s clear that the advantages for the industry in = general,=20 >> that having an RF codec would bring, have not reached everyone who = has=20 >> the ability to influence the outcome. Getting involved, and making a=20= >> good case (particularly to companies that hold relevant patent=20 >> portfolios, and their national bodies) would be helpful. >=20 > Can I assume that it is non-trivial to infer who in particular is in > need of convincing from easily accessibly public records? I do not re- > call anyone handing out lists. One place might be to look at the IPR statements on ISO/IEC 14496-29, = Web Video Coding, which is the document that contains constrained = baseline of H.264/AVC, of course. Some of them are straight =91type 1=92;= some are type 2, but be careful, some wrote =93but will do type 1 if = all others do the same=94 but that statement is not reflected in the = rather weak ISO database. The ISO patent database (an excel = spreadsheet, no less) is easily found by searching. (That identifies = companies; for access to MPEG documents, national body statements, and = so on, you=92ll need to find which organization in your country forms = the national delegation to MPEG. For the USA, that=92s INCITS. This is = obviously more work.) I=92m sure there are other starting points. Statements made about other = efforts can also probably be found, for example. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From mandyam@quicinc.com Sat Jan 11 21:01:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1971AD9AC for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:01:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iG_PzJ2_CBnM for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1681AD8F5 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:01:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=quicinc.com; i=@quicinc.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1389502863; x=1421038863; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=f4Lxxt7hAo0XvfB9l8my+LAfDl/GAIwHIKTcg3zJKeI=; b=OljgSt38uQ6xhyG2f9BZdWrgeM733BQNdLEhRZ2ttrHQrULA2k+ATzDe p3x1vX9HeI8nYmv5TaGq7ZGBFnRW29y9/cryoY2KgrYvmktw4nV17UOfE /kEgq5Za/+0LyjGvheyI+CNMcFIBgPUe1Bk7HhGcGqlXWERLv7O5wIVvr w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,7315"; a="98217150" Received: from ironmsg01-lv.qualcomm.com ([10.47.202.180]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2014 21:01:02 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,7315"; a="25553231" Received: from nasanexhc04.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.17]) by ironmsg01-lv.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 11 Jan 2014 21:01:01 -0800 Received: from nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.2) by nasanexhc04.na.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:01:01 -0800 Received: from NASANEXD01H.na.qualcomm.com ([169.254.8.27]) by nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.2]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:01:00 -0800 From: "Mandyam, Giridhar" To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , "Cullen Jennings" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOT+MKn9B8vGEOsKbFS8Iqcs5qAvCJw Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:00:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [199.106.115.192] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A1672E8F2nasanexd01hnaqu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:01:20 -0000 --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A1672E8F2nasanexd01hnaqu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My responses. Thanks, -Giri Mandyam 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: This option potentially allows negotiation failure. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-r= tcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe= that H.261 would provide equivalent or superior performance under identica= l testing conditions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the m= ailing lists proving otherwise. This option would allow a presumably infer= ior codec (H.261) to be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow = interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-prop= osal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe that H.261 wou= ld provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing condi= tions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists pr= oving otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.26= 1) to be the fallback option. Moreover, H.261 does not allow for interop wi= th legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-r= tcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe= that Ogg would provide equivalent or superior performance under identical = testing conditions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mai= ling lists proving otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferio= r codec (Ogg) to be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow inte= rop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. In= addition, Ogg has not been formally standardized by any recognized standar= ds-defining organization. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-r= tcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe= that H.261 would provide equivalent or superior performance under identica= l testing conditions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the m= ailing lists proving otherwise. This option would allow a presumably infer= ior codec (H.261) to be the fallback option. Moreover, H.261 does not allow= for interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telep= hony. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: VP8 standardization is incomplete. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:. Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-prop= osal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe that Ogg would= provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditi= ons, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists prov= ing otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (Ogg) t= o be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow interop with legacy= systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. In addition, Ogg = has not been formally standardized by any recognized standards-defining org= anization. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-r= tcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264. I do not believe= that M-JPEG would provide equivalent or superior performance under identic= al testing conditions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the = mailing lists proving otherwise. This option would allow a presumably infe= rior codec (M-JPEG) to be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allo= w interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephon= y. From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus Westerlund; = Cullen Jennings Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Dear WG, This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec alternat= ives proposed to the WG. If you haven't read the "Next Steps in Video Codec= Selection Process" (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/ms= g10448.html )then please do that before you continue to read. The straw poll's purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the alterna= tives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, if any, = against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the information fr= om this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a single consensus = question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinion on at least one a= lternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll input by replying to = this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run until the end of the 1= 2th of January 2014. As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed to = the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. The first question is "Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= ". These three levels allow you to indicate that you: Yes=3D I would be fin= e with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really don't favor this, and i= t should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with this option but I pr= efer something else to be picked. The second question is "Do you have any objections to this option, if so pl= ease explain it:" If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it with a= "Yes". Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of the objec= tions you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer explanation, p= lease do so in a separate thread). If you have no objection, leave that qu= estion blank. Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel co= mfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the WG ch= airs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for consens= us. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be considere= d as one without any input from you. WG participants, please do not comment on anyone's input in this thread! If= you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the subject = line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the chairs very d= ifficult to track the results of this straw poll. If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to send = an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 = (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec = H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 Thanks, The Chairs --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A1672E8F2nasanexd01hnaqu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    My responses.  Thanks,

    -Giri Mandyam

     

    1. All entities MUST support H.264<= o:p>

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: YES

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

     

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =          Does not allow interop wit= h legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony.  VP8 = standardization is incomplete.

     

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 an= d VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =          Does not allow interop wit= h legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standa= rdization is incomplete.

     

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP= 8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =          Does not allow interop wit= h legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standa= rdization is incomplete.

     

    5. All entities MUST support at least one = of H.264 and VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

    This option pot= entially allows negotiation failure.

     

    6. All entities MUST support H.261<= o:p>

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =         Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rt= cweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that H.261 wou= ld provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing condi= tions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists pr= oving otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) to be the fallback option. Moreover, t= his does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP I= MS Video Telephony.

     

    7. There is no MTI video codec=

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: Acceptable

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

     

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all= entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

    Section 7 of&nb= sp;https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that H.261 wou= ld provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing condi= tions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists pr= oving otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) to be the fallback option. Moreover, H= .261 does not allow for interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3= GPP IMS Video Telephony.

     

    9. All entities MUST support Theora=

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =         Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rt= cweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that Ogg would= provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditi= ons, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists prov= ing otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (Ogg) to be the fallback option. Moreover, thi= s does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS= Video Telephony.  In addition, Ogg has not been formally standardized= by any recognized standards-defining organization.

     

    10. All entities MUST implement at least t= wo of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

      &nb= sp;            = Section 7 of https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that H.261 wou= ld provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing condi= tions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists pr= oving otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) to be the fallback option. Moreover, H= .261 does not allow for interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3= GPP IMS Video Telephony.

     

    11. All entities MUST implement at least t= wo of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =          VP8 standardization is inc= omplete.

     

    12. All entities MUST support decoding usi= ng both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.26= 4 or VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =          Does not allow interop wit= h legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony.  VP8 = standardization is incomplete.

     

    13. All entities MUST support H.263=

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: YES

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:.

     

    14. All entities MUST implement at least t= wo of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:.

           =          Does not allow interop wit= h legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. 

     

    15. All entities MUST support decoding usi= ng Theora.

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

    Section 7 of&nb= sp;https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that Ogg would= provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditi= ons, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists prov= ing otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (Ogg) to be the fallback option. Moreover, thi= s does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS= Video Telephony.  In addition, Ogg has not been formally standardized= by any recognized standards-defining organization.

     

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /span>

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this opti= on, if so please summarize them:

           =         Section 7 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rt= cweb-h264-proposal/ provides performance data for H.264.  I do not believe that M-JPEG wo= uld provide equivalent or superior performance under identical testing cond= itions, and no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists p= roving otherwise.  This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (M-JPEG) to be the fallback option. More= over, this does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as= 3GPP IMS Video Telephony.

     <= /p>

     <= /p>

    From: rtcweb [= mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie
    Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus Weste= rlund; Cullen Jennings
    Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives<= /span>

     

    Dear W= G,

     

    This i= s the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec alternatives p= roposed to the WG. If you haven’t read the “Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process” (h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html= )then please do that before you continue to read.

     

    The st= raw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the alterna= tives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the infor= mation from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a single c= onsensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinion on at le= ast one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mai= ling list. The poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.

     

    As can= be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed to the WG= . For each alternative two questions are listed.

     

    The fi= rst question is “Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= ”. These three levels allow you to indicate that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really don’t favo= r this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with this op= tion but I prefer something else to be picked.  

     

    The se= cond question is “Do you have any objections to this option, if so pl= ease explain it:” If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it with a “Yes”.   Please also add a short (1-senten= ce) summary of each of the objections you believe applies.  (If you wi= sh to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate thread). &nb= sp;If you have no objection, leave that question blank.

     

    Please= provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel comforta= ble to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward f= or consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be= considered as one without any input from you.  

     

    WG par= ticipants, please do not comment on anyone’s input in this thread! If= you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the = chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll.  

     

    If dis= cussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to send an upd= ate via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date.

     

    1.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.264

    a.   = ; Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    b.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    2.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port both H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4.   = ; Browsers MUST support= both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port at least one of H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7.   = ; There is no MTI video= codec

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port Theora

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at = least one of H.264 or VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13.  All entities MUST sup= port H.263

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    14.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using Theora.

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16.  All entities MUST sup= port Motion JPEG

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

     

    H.264 = is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/

     

    VP8 is= a reference to the propo= sal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/

     

    Theora= is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)

     

    H.263 = is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 = (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-R= EC-H.263/)

     

    H.261 = is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587

     

    Motion= JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435

     

    Thanks= ,

     

    The Ch= airs

     

    --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A1672E8F2nasanexd01hnaqu_-- From ml@gondwanaland.com Sat Jan 11 21:52:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C66F1ADF24 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGZP6bf0ee_v for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from naoi.pair.com (naoi.pair.com [209.68.5.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDE41ADF26 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (adsl-76-232-8-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [76.232.8.210]) by naoi.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF2C99584F for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 00:52:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52D22D85.4050700@gondwanaland.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:52:05 -0800 From: Mike Linksvayer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060401040001030702080207" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060401040001030702080207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Had I responded sooner, there would be many more No answers and fewer Acceptable answers. But watching responses come in, I'd rather not contribute to stalemate to the extent possible, and I've been reflecting (prompted list messages mentioning audio) that lack of guaranteed video interoperability might not be as horrible in practice as it sounds in theory -- many (I hesitate to say most, but that'd be my guess) applications need to be able to usefully fall back to audio-only anyway, as lack of video due to poor bandwidth, privacy, lost or misconfigured camera, bad lighting, etc, is extremely common. Mike 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Makes FLOSS projects 2nd class citizens at best, does not augur well for **escaping dependence on encumbered codecs in next generation.* 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Worse than #3* 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: *Makes FLOSS projects 2nd class citizens at best, does not augur well for **escaping dependence on encumbered codecs in next generation.* 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Acceptable* 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: --------------060401040001030702080207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Had I responded sooner, there would be many more No answers and fewer Acceptable answers. But watching responses come in, I'd rather not contribute to stalemate to the extent possible, and I've been reflecting (prompted list messages mentioning audio) that lack of guaranteed video interoperability might not be as horrible in practice as it sounds in theory -- many (I hesitate to say most, but that'd be my guess) applications need to be able to usefully fall back to audio-only anyway, as lack of video due to poor bandwidth, privacy, lost or misconfigured camera, bad lighting, etc, is extremely common.

    Mike

    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Makes FLOSS projects 2nd class citizens at best, does not augur well for escaping dependence on encumbered codecs in next generation.

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Worse than #3

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Makes FLOSS projects 2nd class citizens at best, does not augur well for escaping dependence on encumbered codecs in next generation.

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    --------------060401040001030702080207-- From Bernhard.Feiten@telekom.de Sat Jan 11 23:28:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49471ADF4D for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 23:28:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWyXSJ9MqSm7 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 23:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail33.telekom.de (tcmail33.telekom.de [80.149.113.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698E11ACC7E for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 23:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from he111297.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.125.90.15]) by tcmail31.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 12 Jan 2014 08:28:01 +0100 Received: from HE111541.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.125.90.94]) by HE111297.EMEA1.CDS.T-INTERNAL.COM ([fe80::9835:b110:c489:6d64%16]) with mapi; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:28:01 +0100 From: To: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:27:58 +0100 Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac71BEfFVhN3/oUYQIagJKZEzLN9cgaX4XRQ Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE8995AB5D178F44A2154F5C9A97CAF402605FBA7C4DHE111541eme_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:28:19 -0000 --_000_CE8995AB5D178F44A2154F5C9A97CAF402605FBA7C4DHE111541eme_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Find below my responses. Best regards, Bernhard Feiten 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability to other services. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability to other services in case of VP8 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, quality too bad. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability with good quality to other servic= es . 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, quality too bad. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO c. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability with good quality to other servic= es . 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO d. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability to other services . 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO e. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, because of worse interoperability to other services . 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO c. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, quality too bad. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO d. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: YES, quality too bad. --_000_CE8995AB5D178F44A2154F5C9A97CAF402605FBA7C4DHE111541eme_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Find belo= w my responses.

     = ;

    Best regards,

    Bernhard Feiten

     

    <= p style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin= -left:36.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l15 level1 = lfo1;vertical-align:baseline'>1.   = ; All entities MUST support H.264

    a.&n= bsp;   Are you in favor of this= option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

    b.  &nb= sp; Do you have any objections to this op= tion, if so please summarize them:

    2.    All entities MUST support VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acce= ptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please su= mmarize them: YES, because of worse interoperability to other s= ervices.

    3.    = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acce= ptable]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please su= mmarize them:

    4.    = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entitie= s MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]: NO

    b.    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please su= mmarize them:

    5.    All= entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    <= p style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin= -left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l9 level2 l= fo36;vertical-align:baseline'>a.   = ; Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    b.<= span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>    Do you have any objections to this option, if so plea= se summarize them: YES, because of worse interoperability to ot= her services in case of VP8

    6.<= span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>    All entities MUST support H.261

    =

    a.  &nbs= p; Are you in favor of this option [Yes/N= o/Acceptable]: NO

    b.=     Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: YES, quality too bad.<= /span>

    7.&nbs= p;   There is no MTI video code= c

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO=

    b.    Do you= have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

    8.&nb= sp;   All entities MUST support= H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    a.&n= bsp;   Are you in favor of this= option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    =

    b.  &nb= sp; Do you have any objections to this op= tion, if so please summarize them: YES, because of worse intero= perability with good quality to other services .

    9. &nbs= p;  All entities MUST support Theora=

    = a.    Are you in favo= r of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b.&nbs= p;   Do you have any objections= to this option, if so please summarize them: YES, quality too = bad.

    10.  All entities= MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    a.   = ; Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No= /Acceptable]: NO

    c.=     Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: YES, because of worse interoperability with= good quality to other services .

    11.  <= /span>All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264,= H.263}

    a.    Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO<= /o:p>

    b.=     Do you have any object= ions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    12.  All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 = and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8<= /o:p>

    a.=     Are you in favor of th= is option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    d.  &= nbsp; Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them: YES, because of worse inte= roperability to other services .

    13.  All entities MUST support H.263

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acc= eptable]: NO

    b.    <= /span>Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:

    14.  All entitie= s MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    =

    a.  &nbs= p; Are you in favor of this option [Yes/N= o/Acceptable]: NO

    e= .    Do you have any objections to this option, if so pl= ease summarize them: YES, because of worse interoperability to = other services .

    15.  = All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    a.    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acc= eptable]: NO

    c.    <= /span>Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them: YES, quality too bad.

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.Are you in favor of= this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    d. &nbs= p;  Do you have any objections to th= is option, if so please summarize them: YES, quality too bad.

     

    = --_000_CE8995AB5D178F44A2154F5C9A97CAF402605FBA7C4DHE111541eme_-- From lef.mutualauth@gmail.com Sun Jan 12 03:10:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02AE21AE018 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JcL0OGD1e0RR for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x22e.google.com (mail-we0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8280B1AE017 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f174.google.com with SMTP id x55so1970177wes.5 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=3T3AuhwI/y8JaFX1Wx4xlU57sqiKckja7eHfPjapejM=; b=SkCb7gveLSZvjydXHIAmE4L4VoYnp+Vp9czQrakGzrQlHgTO9Bu2U4xIMWVD5xLSnP KozChRPDxaYYyK1AzQSNRaajquim65Rl9zIrQnYihI/6Kqdp7oLxkS1YutiM1q6tyTt6 4w9sMD8FskmAW7e4F9RRS0nggy3NtMPtVrDSEoGh/Olrg/vnV8SzRtfGdqaUOAj1Ai6F JU2QhWCAeKBq0XmCBrbKZKsiklMZVS+nQZdNVHgLos9it/p3ksNcLna0EX8B1/Lypkfi tUlH6htZircCoYsDpyc2M8VEFEKvCx4pdvYzOAJGZfUkXVOzPloiCxthKTBbuImAKFaV bncQ== X-Received: by 10.180.13.74 with SMTP id f10mr10582844wic.34.1389525030243; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.157.133 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:10:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "HAYASHI, Tatsuya" Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:10:10 +0900 Message-ID: To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:10:45 -0000 My responses. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Better 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Thanks. From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Sun Jan 12 03:25:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6D31ACD04 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SLrr-baxss85 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x22a.google.com (mail-bk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD741ADBC9 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f42.google.com with SMTP id w11so2131702bkz.1 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=z0xdr05TNB3C/giTZIxzeM9zGIvLjCyZQ4wacanSkwA=; b=nQBk5pNF6eumwl3NIbWs5UDJxCEyxjpZJ5Ka1X1TTY1M7Mc7Uz1Yk3bW4a5rklb1NX P80dEHcAndjnAIOk9jCz1MAF2KIXhtS2/nU+FZi5R/oKtzH40M+ECzc4r/VkS56/neqi x2Ci3PYwQdPEl02ZxJ5RaDJi1c6fwmJGPADZbw4RGagDiKSHmkpnrKWwnzTcLb+pSBVY BgYQwu8zUvu9xI2Knlqzu0C6/BimAO47imFjq+3gbuoZU9Lape9niCtoivQTpyAf9Mjk ydYvqXCaCcD9cNF6gv3fgLv+B3ekfIAtcJxIgq4UBC2/TIBnGfXz0d8zrZFjRHwqqxYm ZFTQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.229.14 with SMTP id jg14mr1138389bkb.107.1389525922403; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:25:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:25:22 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0C2S6ghfUW237RTwAbT_mq3Rt2I Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [rtcweb] Giri Mandyam's response / h261 performance (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:25:35 -0000 On 12 January 2014 06:00, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote: > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : > > Section 7 of > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ provi= des > performance data for H.264. I do not believe that H.261 would provide > equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditions, an= d > no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists proving > otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) t= o > be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow interop with legacy > systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. Here's some performance data time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline -o irene-unspec.264 encoded 540 frames, 37.73 fps, 362.40 kb/s real 0m14.501s time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 irene-unspec.h261 real 0m2.118s time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline --preset ultrafast -o irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 encoded 540 frames, 238.31 fps, 871.36 kb/s real 0m2.449s time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -b:v 362571 irene-362571.h261 real 0m2.307s time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline --preset ultrafast --bitrate 363 -o irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 encoded 540 frames, 247.03 fps, 362.39 kb/s real 0m2.344s 956K irene-unspec.264 2.3M irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 956K irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 595K irene-unspec.h261 1023K irene-362571.h261 ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Total: 0.967268 (Y': 0.964929 Cb: 0.971758 Cr: 0.97213 ) ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Warning: framerates do not match. info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 Total: 0.900451 (Y': 0.889181 Cb: 0.930285 Cr: 0.915696) ffmpeg -i irene-362571.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Warning: framerates do not match. info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 Total: 0.928367 (Y': 0.923392 Cb: 0.942237 Cr: 0.934402) ffmpeg -i irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Total: 0.934904 (Y': 0.925319 Cb: 0.956247 Cr: 0.951901) ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m sign_irene_cif.y4m Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Total: 1 (Y': 1 Cb: 1 Cr: 1 ) - Herv=E9 From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sun Jan 12 03:49:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CB31AE018 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:49:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hcTJhK_09MG for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F6D1ADFF8 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s0CBmiac029759; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:44 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0b6e_80e3_7d698748_7b7f_11e3_8c4c_001e6722eec2; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:43 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A989BBF4D7; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:43 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:15 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:49:22 -0000 Below are my opinions. I'm using a numerical with 0.0 meaning NO and 1.0=20 meaning YES, everything in between is acceptable, with various degrees. The statements and opinions below are purely my own and were written=20 without any support (e.g. from a lawyer). On 2013/12/10 2:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.2 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: Licensibility is a completely unsolved problem for open source. Every=20 step towards solving this problem makes this solution more acceptable.=20 Such steps include the Cisco binary (great move), creating a=20 royality-free (+no reporting requirements!) version (underway but moving=20 very slowly), making built-in hardware support more accessible (this=20 looks like an easy move for the vendors in charge; surprised nobody has=20 announced something in this direction yet), and so on. The current licensing model used by MPEG and MPEG-LA works marginally=20 well with hardware (but it's weird that somebody would have to pay extra=20 license fees for a video taken on a home camera but broadcast=20 commercially; it contradicts general expectations about patents, namely=20 that if I buy a tool, I can use it any way I want). On the other hand,=20 the MPEG model isn't suited for software. Once something can be=20 implemented in software, and is supposed to be widely interoperable, any=20 kind of licensing restrictions are unnecessary impediments. The best=20 example is the WWW, which boomed among else because CERN put the=20 software in the public domain and made clear it would never ask for any=20 money (see=20 http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2013/04/twenty-years-free-open-web)= .=20 That's the way to create great value; bean-counting =C3=A0 la MPEG-LA isn= 't. The fact that the MPEG licensing model can be "cheated on" as shown with=20 the Cisco binary is another indication that it's not suited for software. To some extent, this is recognized in jurisdictions that do not allow=20 software patents, and I personally hope that the number of such=20 jurisdictions will increase. Also, some jurisdictions may come to the=20 recognition that video compression algorithms are nothing else than=20 algorithms, and algorithms have traditionally not been protected by=20 patents, for good reasons. > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.8 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: In my judgment, the remaining 0.2 are mostly FUD (if Nokia or some third=20 party thinks it's not, they should submit a much more precise=20 declaration), and some "out of left field" patent troll risk that=20 unfortunately never can be excluded. Google has to be commended for doing virtually everything (except=20 betting *all* the money of their company) possible to make VP8 usable=20 widely. A Cisco-binary like binary may be helpful to the extent that it=20 may make it more difficult for a troll to attack the user of the binary. > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.1 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: This is the compromise that hurts everybody. > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MU= ST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.2 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: The delineation between browsers and non-browsers is unclear, and there=20 are open-source browsers (or installations thereof) that may not be able=20 to use H.264, even in the form of the Cisco binary. > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.05 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: Same as 7 (no MTI), just without admitting it. > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.4 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: H.261 is the best quality available codec that we can assume to be=20 without patent encumberment. There is also widespread (if slightly=20 dated) industry experience. It is clear that most video experts don't like its quality/performance.=20 But then the pool of video experts tends to contain a lot of people who=20 care about high video quality more than the average user, and even more=20 than the user who really depends on video, in particular people who rely=20 on sign language. As it has been shown that H.261 is okay for sign=20 language, it's the minimum we can require to guarantee accessible=20 interoperability. > 7. There is no MTI video codec > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.2 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: If we have to admit it, we'd better admit it. Of course I'd prefer=20 another outcome, but maybe it would be better to postpone additional=20 discussions until such time as the rest of RTCWeb is finished, and only=20 then give it another try. If we can't find consensus, then the only=20 reason to continue to actively discuss this issue is the pressure it may=20 create on players to come forward with better solutions > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST suppo= rt at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.3 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: This is similar to 6 (must support H.261), but in addition enshrines=20 current "best of breed" codecs, which means more work to update specs=20 when VP9 and the like become fully practical. > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.05 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: I don't think there are significantly less risks with Theora than with=20 VP8, so I don't think it's worth prescribing, because quality is less=20 than VP8. > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H= .261} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.3 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: This is similar to 8 (MUST H.261, must one of H.264 and VP8). It is less=20 favorable because it locks in current best-of-breed codecs, but more=20 favorable because it allows some players to support two modern codecs=20 rather than an old and a new one. > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H= .263} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.01 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: H.263 doesn't solve the H.264 licensing problems (unless we wait quite a=20 few more years), and is lower in quality than H.264, so why bother. > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP= 8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.2 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: This would be a solution if either MPEG managed to at least make the=20 decoding of H.264 royalty-free, or if a significant number of=20 jurisdictions made patents non-applicable to decoding. The later point may sound strange to some, but it can be argued both in=20 theory for source coding and in practice for video coding that the=20 difficulty is essentially all in the encoder; the decoder is just a set=20 of instructions to re-create the original, and such sets of instructions=20 aren't usually patentable, and the actual instruction sequence is sent=20 to the receiver anyway. > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.01 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: See choice 11. > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, T= heora} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.05 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: See choice 9. > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.05 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: This is just a variant of choice 9, with the "encoding" part left implici= t. > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: 0.1 > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e > them: If it can be shown that Motion JPEG produces acceptable results for sign=20 language, then this is an alternative to H.261. Regards, Martin. From maikmerten@googlemail.com Sun Jan 12 05:14:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159751ADF76 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gGL0WNu8QLSg for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-x231.google.com (mail-ee0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550A11ADF56 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f49.google.com with SMTP id d17so219484eek.22 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0l3vjDdLStPVUZNF2y5DSttqz7QU3eBKOzvC10Zb1NU=; b=Lnk87TTiQtf2lgRTWKdxQsPnBYsJ8lLBs/raO2w17ufukwYHPcY0U6UorJqMEunhPz r7WWJle03xXVrdd58NYFmgWJNDFvbSEfhoZAGa/LgKvuy2BwykUeti8bg0nuZSudypAt Onn6EhYxrjcxn0rnSDH4s5/+v4ylsie9jrZCqRrZjCKsh49MrTqtY7T3Dp1gwuyKQLIH 7TW6sZ+poRqVfFgIpOwxb7t+k2Y6NJFsCdQnCA9xiZ7KIGjd/3ebUyRkrcWVdM1gIVuH Hldr6QgdnCOn5zPgz/DkhuCbw04TNmlCzNnm1CiAuOCIg4keqYQnV5V7LGQ6tQOBvosU loYA== X-Received: by 10.14.69.200 with SMTP id n48mr21554253eed.54.1389532452288; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.109] (port-92-201-36-207.dynamic.qsc.de. [92.201.36.207]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm30973473eee.12.2014.01.12.05.14.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:14:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D29520.7010903@googlemail.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:14:08 +0100 From: Maik Merten User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Giri Mandyam's response / h261 performance (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:14:25 -0000 Hello Hervé, thanks for conducting some tests. I see that you're using the ffmpeg H.261 encoder, which by default makes no use of H.261 in-loop filtering, which is designed to avoid buildup of high-frequency noise caused by the full-pel motion compensation. In my experience, enabling that filter (-flags loop) will yield a visually more pleasing result. I expect that SSIM may "confirm" this (as much as objective measurement correlates to subjective quality), and wonder if this in fact the case in your experimental setup. Best regards, Maik Am 12.01.2014 12:25, schrieb Hervé W.: > On 12 January 2014 06:00, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote: >> 6. All entities MUST support H.261 >> >> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO >> >> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: >> >> Section 7 of >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ provides >> performance data for H.264. I do not believe that H.261 would provide >> equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditions, and >> no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists proving >> otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) to >> be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow interop with legacy >> systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. > > Here's some performance data > > time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline > -o irene-unspec.264 > encoded 540 frames, 37.73 fps, 362.40 kb/s > real 0m14.501s > > > time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 irene-unspec.h261 > real 0m2.118s > > > time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline > --preset ultrafast -o irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 > encoded 540 frames, 238.31 fps, 871.36 kb/s > real 0m2.449s > > > time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -b:v 362571 irene-362571.h261 > real 0m2.307s > > > time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline > --preset ultrafast --bitrate 363 -o irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 > encoded 540 frames, 247.03 fps, 362.39 kb/s > real 0m2.344s > > > 956K irene-unspec.264 > 2.3M irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 > 956K irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 > 595K irene-unspec.h261 > 1023K irene-362571.h261 > > > ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | > ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r > sign_irene_cif.y4m - > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Opening -... > Total: 0.967268 (Y': 0.964929 Cb: 0.971758 Cr: 0.97213 ) > > > ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | > ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r > sign_irene_cif.y4m - > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Opening -... > Warning: framerates do not match. > info1.fps_n=25 info1.fps_d=1 info2.fps_n=30000 info2.fps_d=1001 > Total: 0.900451 (Y': 0.889181 Cb: 0.930285 Cr: 0.915696) > > > ffmpeg -i irene-362571.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | > ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r > sign_irene_cif.y4m - > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Opening -... > Warning: framerates do not match. > info1.fps_n=25 info1.fps_d=1 info2.fps_n=30000 info2.fps_d=1001 > Total: 0.928367 (Y': 0.923392 Cb: 0.942237 Cr: 0.934402) > > > ffmpeg -i irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | > ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r > sign_irene_cif.y4m - > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Opening -... > Total: 0.934904 (Y': 0.925319 Cb: 0.956247 Cr: 0.951901) > > > ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r > sign_irene_cif.y4m sign_irene_cif.y4m > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... > Total: 1 (Y': 1 Cb: 1 Cr: 1 ) > > > - Hervé > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Sun Jan 12 06:02:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10C11AE098 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K09RxN1XFmp8 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x22b.google.com (mail-bk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4211ADF55 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id mz12so2101798bkb.2 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wHrnfOSR86ZiOUviiicFLEYiiY+wKIo9ysrGX5xL//o=; b=cUj34dFqI+2mOHryEv278kFfu2YnjJHGwW/zwNtmnKhiHw96Swm3v25R1Yq7YWonG/ ielKqLoYYfmTaDO9D8GunfMGuGiIfcFKH419f55ygdkeJtZQw1UtVnyMw/YZO8k92mKu aMjfGG7j4+s8QaPKlwIS6+yLdeSDu0edzXXU1Blezvksi5J4v7ddmYfgJH83kCb5frPj 9tipuIeTJSW/XnDZCte5an33/UQze17dk/1ntsUKqNxQ9KfiOKCO0cEki60zBoBFmBHf KzhNGpgjL+yiOjNV+iTjN/Cfoe6Pk6jXYVpegU0WFzIZtke4061zz939LSKAbypQu/J+ 0oaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.229.14 with SMTP id jg14mr1384738bkb.107.1389535348919; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:28 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 06:02:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D29520.7010903@googlemail.com> References: <52D29520.7010903@googlemail.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:02:28 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bsezbWBCH62riqEafoDwdu5nct8 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: Maik Merten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Giri Mandyam's response / h261 performance (Was: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:02:41 -0000 Hi Maik, On 12 January 2014 14:14, Maik Merten wrote: > Hello Herv=E9, > > thanks for conducting some tests. I see that you're using the ffmpeg H.26= 1 > encoder, which by default makes no use of H.261 in-loop filtering, which = is > designed to avoid buildup of high-frequency noise caused by the full-pel > motion compensation. > > In my experience, enabling that filter (-flags loop) will yield a visuall= y > more pleasing result. I expect that SSIM may "confirm" this (as much as > objective measurement correlates to subjective quality), and wonder if th= is > in fact the case in your experimental setup. > > Best regards, > > Maik time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -flags loop -b:v 362571 irene-362571.loop.h261 real 0m2.779s time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -flags loop -b:v 265k irene-265k.loop.h261 real 0m2.750s time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -b:v 265k irene-265k.h261 real 0m2.361s 1046657 irene-362571.h261 1047453 irene-362571.loop.h261 785192 irene-265k.h261 785149 irene-265k.loop.h261 ffmpeg -i irene-362571.loop.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Warning: framerates do not match. info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 Total: 0.926998 (Y': 0.91992 Cb: 0.94383 Cr: 0.938477) ffmpeg -i irene-265k.loop.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Warning: framerates do not match. info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 Total: 0.915997 (Y': 0.906586 Cb: 0.938329 Cr: 0.931311) ffmpeg -i irene-265k.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r sign_irene_cif.y4m - Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... Opening -... Warning: framerates do not match. info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 Total: 0.914378 (Y': 0.906122 Cb: 0.936377 Cr: 0.925403) Lower bitrates seem to benefit (more) from the loop flag than the higher bitrates. - Herv=E9 > Am 12.01.2014 12:25, schrieb Herv=E9 W.: >> >> On 12 January 2014 06:00, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote: >>> >>> 6. All entities MUST support H.261 >>> >>> a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO >>> >>> b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize >>> them: >>> >>> Section 7 of >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ >>> provides >>> performance data for H.264. I do not believe that H.261 would provide >>> equivalent or superior performance under identical testing conditions, >>> and >>> no data has been provided to the IETF or on the mailing lists proving >>> otherwise. This option would allow a presumably inferior codec (H.261) >>> to >>> be the fallback option. Moreover, this does not allow interop with lega= cy >>> systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. >> >> >> Here's some performance data >> >> time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline >> -o irene-unspec.264 >> encoded 540 frames, 37.73 fps, 362.40 kb/s >> real 0m14.501s >> >> >> time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 irene-unspec.h261 >> real 0m2.118s >> >> >> time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline >> --preset ultrafast -o irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 >> encoded 540 frames, 238.31 fps, 871.36 kb/s >> real 0m2.449s >> >> >> time ffmpeg -i sign_irene_cif.y4m -g 100 -b:v 362571 irene-362571.h261 >> real 0m2.307s >> >> >> time ./x264-r2377-1ca7bb9.exe sign_irene_cif.y4m --profile baseline >> --preset ultrafast --bitrate 363 -o irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 >> encoded 540 frames, 247.03 fps, 362.39 kb/s >> real 0m2.344s >> >> >> 956K irene-unspec.264 >> 2.3M irene-unspec.cbp.ultrafast.264 >> 956K irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 >> 595K irene-unspec.h261 >> 1023K irene-362571.h261 >> >> >> ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | >> ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r >> sign_irene_cif.y4m - >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Opening -... >> Total: 0.967268 (Y': 0.964929 Cb: 0.971758 Cr: 0.97213 ) >> >> >> ffmpeg -i irene-unspec.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | >> ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r >> sign_irene_cif.y4m - >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Opening -... >> Warning: framerates do not match. >> info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 >> Total: 0.900451 (Y': 0.889181 Cb: 0.930285 Cr: 0.915696) >> >> >> ffmpeg -i irene-362571.h261 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | >> ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r >> sign_irene_cif.y4m - >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Opening -... >> Warning: framerates do not match. >> info1.fps_n=3D25 info1.fps_d=3D1 info2.fps_n=3D30000 info2.fps_d=3D1001 >> Total: 0.928367 (Y': 0.923392 Cb: 0.942237 Cr: 0.934402) >> >> >> ffmpeg -i irene-363k.cbp.ultrafast.264 -f yuv4mpegpipe -v -1 - | >> ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r >> sign_irene_cif.y4m - >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Opening -... >> Total: 0.934904 (Y': 0.925319 Cb: 0.956247 Cr: 0.951901) >> >> >> ./daala/daala-HEAD-b2fa2c0/tools/dump_ssim.exe -s -r >> sign_irene_cif.y4m sign_irene_cif.y4m >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Opening sign_irene_cif.y4m... >> Total: 1 (Y': 1 Cb: 1 Cr: 1 ) >> >> >> - Herv=E9 From karl.stahl@intertex.se Sun Jan 12 07:45:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03531ADF48 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:45:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3OWd04Bbcc6g for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D751ADF24 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 07:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401121645259100 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:45:25 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:45:23 +0100 Message-ID: <078501cf0fad$4e906b00$ebb14100$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0786_01CF0FB5.B054D300" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac71A5TFF8/VD+1+ROWD1Lt+LtXk1wapbHug Content-Language: sv Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:45:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01CF0FB5.B054D300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karl Stahl's response (for Ingate and Intertex): 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco's offering, for IPR concern) slot and multiple codec slots are recommended: "SHOULD" - we must not get locked into another 50 years of "Video G.711" base level now - and also other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their own downloadable codec - will also drive improvement and innovation (VP9, H.26x.). - Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the "VP8 only days", from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco's offering, for compatibility and for VP8 itself for those that e.g. believes that Nokia IPR objections are more than political) slot and multiple codec slots are mandated: "MUST" - we must not get locked into another 50 years of "Video G.711" base level now - and also other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their own downloadable codec - will also drive improvement and innovation (VP9, H.26x.). - Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the "VP8 only days", from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Only if codec slots also are mandated: "MUST" 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No, simply too old/bad a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} No . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} No . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.264 is a reference to the pro posal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the pro posal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 ( http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 Thanks, The Chairs ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01CF0FB5.B054D300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Karl Stahl’s response (for Ingate and = Intertex):

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.264

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ye= s

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    - = Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco’s offering, for IPR = concern) slot and multiple codec slots are recommended: = “SHOULD” – we must not get locked into another 50 = years of “Video G.711” base level now - and also other = services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their = own downloadable codec – will also drive improvement and = innovation (VP9, H.26x…).

    &#= 8211; Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = “VP8 only days”, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be = avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC  =

     

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.    A= ll entities MUST support VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ye= s

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    - = Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco’s offering, for = compatibility and for VP8 itself for those that e.g. believes that Nokia = IPR objections are more than political) slot and multiple codec slots = are mandated: “MUST” – we must not get locked into = another 50 years of “Video G.711” base level now - and also = other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing = their own downloadable codec – will also drive improvement and = innovation (VP9, H.26x…).

    &#= 8211; Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = “VP8 only days”, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be = avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC  =

     

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.    A= ll entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.    B= rowsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.    A= ll entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    On= ly if codec slots also are mandated: = “MUST”

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No= , simply too old/bad

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>7.    T= here is no MTI video codec

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>8.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least = one of H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>9.    A= ll entities MUST support Theora

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>10.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>11.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>12.  A= ll entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or = VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>13.  A= ll entities MUST support H.263

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>14.  A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = Theora}

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>15.  A= ll entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>16.  A= ll entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'> .      = A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

     

    H= .264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/

     

    V= P8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/=

     

    T= heora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, = 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)=

     

    H= .263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T = rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC= -H.263/)

     

    H= .261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 =

     

    M= otion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 =

     

    T= hanks,

     

    T= he Chairs

     

    ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01CF0FB5.B054D300-- From karl.stahl@intertex.se Sun Jan 12 09:06:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493B01ADF89 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:06:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k_zgbo5EPh-p for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5471A1F5D for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401121805553820 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:05:55 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: References: <078501cf0fad$4e906b00$ebb14100$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: <078501cf0fad$4e906b00$ebb14100$@stahl@intertex.se> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:05:53 +0100 Message-ID: <079c01cf0fb8$8d568350$a80389f0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_079D_01CF0FC0.EF1AEB50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac71A5TFF8/VD+1+ROWD1Lt+LtXk1wapbHugAAOmlcA= Content-Language: sv Subject: [rtcweb] Transcoding objection/explaition/experience: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 17:06:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_079D_01CF0FC0.EF1AEB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [1] Transcoding VP8 =DF> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on = old laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine. = Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last = WebRTC conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to = others real heavy DSP cabinets. /Karl =20 Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Karl Stahl Skickat: den 12 januari 2014 16:45 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives =20 Karl Stahl=92s response (for Ingate and Intertex): 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco=92s offering, for IPR = concern) slot and multiple codec slots are recommended: =93SHOULD=94 =96 we must not = get locked into another 50 years of =93Video G.711=94 base level now - and also = other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their = own downloadable codec =96 will also drive improvement and innovation (VP9, H.26x=85). =96 Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = =93VP8 only days=94, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC =20 =20 1. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: - Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco=92s offering, for = compatibility and for VP8 itself for those that e.g. believes that Nokia IPR objections = are more than political) slot and multiple codec slots are mandated: = =93MUST=94 =96 we must not get locked into another 50 years of =93Video G.711=94 base = level now - and also other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their own downloadable codec =96 will also drive improvement = and innovation (VP9, H.26x=85). =96 Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = =93VP8 only days=94, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC =20 =20 1. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST = support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Only if codec slots also are mandated: =93MUST=94 1. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No, simply too old/bad b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} No a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} No a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and = MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 1. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =20 H.264 is a reference to the pro = posal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ =20 VP8 is a reference to the pro posal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ =20 Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, = 2011 ( http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)=20 =20 H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T = rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) =20 H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587=20 =20 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435=20 =20 Thanks, =20 The Chairs =20 ------=_NextPart_000_079D_01CF0FC0.EF1AEB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    [1= ] Transcoding VP8 =DF&g= t; H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on old laptops with 1 = core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine. =

    Ev= en the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last WebRTC = conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to = others real heavy DSP cabinets.

    /K= arl

     

    Fr=E5n: rtcweb = [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Karl = Stahl
    Skickat: den 12 januari 2014 16:45
    Till: = rtcweb@ietf.org
    =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec = Alternatives

     

    Karl Stahl’s response (for Ingate and = Intertex):

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.264

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ye= s

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    - = Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco’s offering, for IPR = concern) slot and multiple codec slots are recommended: = “SHOULD” – we must not get locked into another 50 = years of “Video G.711” base level now - and also other = services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing their = own downloadable codec – will also drive improvement and = innovation (VP9, H.26x…).

    &#= 8211; Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = “VP8 only days”, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be = avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC  =

     

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ye= s

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    - = Only if a downloadable codec (like Cisco’s offering, for = compatibility and for VP8 itself for those that e.g. believes that Nokia = IPR objections are more than political) slot and multiple codec slots = are mandated: “MUST” – we must not get locked into = another 50 years of “Video G.711” base level now - and also = other services (IPR or not) should be able to use browsers if providing = their own downloadable codec – will also drive improvement and = innovation (VP9, H.26x…).

    &#= 8211; Transcoding (which we got as priority request from day one of the = “VP8 only days”, from both SP and PBX/UC side, must be = avoided [1] as being against the core idea of WebRTC  =

     

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    B= rowsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    On= ly if codec slots also are mandated: = “MUST”

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No= , simply too old/bad

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    T= here is no MTI video codec

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least = one of H.264 and VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support Theora

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or = VP8

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    Ac= ceptable

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support H.263

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = Theora}

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.    A= ll entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.    A= re you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    No=

    <= span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.    D= o you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

     

    H= .264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/

     

    V= P8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/=

     

    T= heora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, = 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)=

     

    H= .263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T = rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC= -H.263/)

     

    H= .261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 =

     

    M= otion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 =

     

    T= hanks,

     

    T= he Chairs

     

    ------=_NextPart_000_079D_01CF0FC0.EF1AEB50-- From basilgohar@librevideo.org Sun Jan 12 10:47:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F1E1AE00D for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:47:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GhN7sCc5q7J6 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.zaytoon.hidayahonline.net (zaytoon.hidayahonline.net [173.193.202.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96341AE00C for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (d60-65-38-134.col.wideopenwest.com [65.60.134.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: basilgohar@librevideo.org) by mail.zaytoon.hidayahonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83C0865AEA6 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:46:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52D2E315.8090803@librevideo.org> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:46:45 -0500 From: Basil Mohamed Gohar Organization: Libre Video User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:47:04 -0000 On 12/09/2013 12:24 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: H.264 carries with it an explicit licensing burden that will bring with it exclusion of use cases, including but no limited to free software implementations (as defined by the Free Software Foundation) and stifle adoption of the standard as a result. This will effectively limit rtcweb to "the same old players" that are already entrenched in the market and lock out smaller entities. > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: The same objections in #1 apply here. Additionally, it should be noted that the parallel of "two MTI audio codecs" cannot apply here because there were no free software licensing issues in the two proposed codecs that would impede adoption. This is not the case with H.264, to be precise. > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: In addition to the challenges presented by mandating H.264 as mentioned above in my objections in #1 and #3 above, this one has the additional challenge of applying different rules on an arbitrary and ambiguous distinction. What, exactly, is a browser? Can the same application be a "browser" sometimes, and a "phone" another time? Having this in the spec would likely be a great hindrance to adoption, even if the currently known interested browser vendors agree, it would not be representative of any future additional ones. As a point to note, until relatively recently, Chrome as a browser did not exist, and before that Safari did not, and before that Firefox did not, and before that Opera did not, and before that Internet Explorer did not. > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: While this option gives a wider choice of what codec to implement, the result will be two "islands" in the rtcweb world - the H.264 one and the VP8 one. This alone will not yield any mechanism with which to guarantee interop between rtcweb clients. > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: This will result in the same problem as presented in 5, namely, islands in the rtcweb world. Therefore, it's not a good option. Comparisons to HTML5

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    . Are you in favor of this = option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any objections to = this option, if so please summarize them:
    VP8 has a formal = declaration of unlicensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ 
    The term =93browser=94 is not well defined in this = context.

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of = H.264 and VP8
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    YES
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    NO

    6. All entities = MUST support H.261
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    H.261 is no longer widely = supported and is unlikely to be so if mandated here

    7. There is = no MTI video codec
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    Acceptable
    a. Do you have any objections to = this option, if so please summarize them:
    Acceptable as outcome if no = MTI consensus is reached.

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and = all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    . Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any = objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    H.261 is no = longer widely supported and is unlikely to be so if mandated = here.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora
    . Are you in favor = of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any = objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Theora has = unclear license situation and is not widely supported.

    10. All = entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}
    . Are you = in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any = objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
    H.261 is no = longer widely supported and is unlikely to be so if mandated = here.
    VP8 has a formal declaration of unlicensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ 

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of = {VP8, H.264, H.263}
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    YES
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    NO

    12. All entities MUST = support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding = using at least one of H.264 or VP8
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    VP8 has a formal declaration of = unlicensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ 

    13. All entities MUST support H.263
    . Are you in favor = of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    Acceptable
    a. Do you have any = objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
    NO

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two = of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    VP8 has a formal declaration of = unlicensable IPR, https://ietf.org/ipr/2035/ 
    Theora has unclear license situation and is not widely = supported.

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using = Theora.
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    NO
    a. Do you have any objections to this = option, if so please summarize them:
    Theora has unclear license = situation and is not widely supported.

    16. All entities MUST = support Motion JPEG
    . Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
    Acceptable
    a. Do you have any objections to = this option, if so please summarize = them:
    NO

    Krasimir
    = --Boundary_(ID_UQgu8iE6BIFaEB1P5c2zNA)-- From badri@tokbox.com Sun Jan 12 11:36:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7701AE030 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:36:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fy6NfHoqAVNB for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CB21AE013 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id n12so2077355wgh.0 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:35:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=vUtna2KghL13q+m0xknY7EJPJSitXxIXUvt/qtWlDsE=; b=NcCPyoYyUYJhe40VmvoujE+TuKEgl7Gns4v+1y0a49FP7qry54rxb8xlm7DwYiJP0g +ofJ9MrLx367fwjzQCSQ0JUtzhV74KW+E3eeKwRwnHUMqpiJw5pfFBSeQC3oZAIHj5rW 1Q64Be098rpOUb3ALWElxtUipKlf/+mNQGscQtZ4L+0+AKlHd60LbfxECZ2gsN9HLOUT nmaj8/RFUyxWZI7iw/Lr4qv6K6IeVm1/p8Bxa+l9Lk7E/RH4hen6mTlfsJ7AtBFoFCQW PUZJV+EwPi6N7ChBr5VZUTtkRDeZXjh47ePo5ri7dhay3tFuyIO83t1+XARfWJ9SPmk/ cwKw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlqfVwzSuya7k1mD5Ne0rRvZwhhpdr7ZnBw+/PW73ulXKR/wwd2svRT17OSFpz+IqRJO2SU MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.207.10 with SMTP id ls10mr12042864wic.52.1389555350786; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.23.70 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:35:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:35:50 -0800 Message-ID: From: Badri Rajasekar To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3f51a146a0304efcb11d8 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:36:07 -0000 --001a11c3f51a146a0304efcb11d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Please find below TokBox's position with regards to the straw poll responses. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable given licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. The burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers especially in non-browser entities. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a better alternative in this light. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Interoperability is key and this would necessitate transcoding at a server or some equally non-viable option for effectively using WebRTC. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Although H.261 would be a step back in terms of quality needs of WebRTC video. 7. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI video codec is hurting forward progress of WebRTC. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261 is not viable from a quality perspective and this mostly going to end up as fallback to H.261 in several scenarios without the advantages of H264/VP8 quality. 9. All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Technically this seems like a step back. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While superficially it appears fine, in my opinion it will hurt interoperability. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 are problematic. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially mitigated with decoding and I believe this will hurt adoption by small developers. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.263 doesn't provide better quality (as compared to VP8/H264) and potential IPR risks. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same problem as Point 10. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same as 9. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Existing market support might be limited and again performance concerns. Thanks, Badri *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ted Hardie > *Sent:* Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus > Westerlund; Cullen Jennings > *Subject:* [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives > > > > Dear WG, > > > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=E2=80=99t read the =E2=80= =9CNext Steps in > Video Codec Selection Process=E2=80=9D ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > > > The straw poll=E2=80=99s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of t= he > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinio= n > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed t= o > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > > > The first question is =E2=80=9CAre you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=E2=80=9D. These three levels allow you to indicate t= hat you: > Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really = don=E2=80=99t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with t= his > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > > > The second question is =E2=80=9CDo you have any objections to this option= , if so > please explain it:=E2=80=9D If you have any objection at a minimum indica= te it with > a =E2=80=9CYes=E2=80=9D. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary o= f each of the > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objectio= n, > leave that question blank. > > > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the W= G > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=E2=80=99s input in this = thread! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to sen= d > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 201= 1 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T re= c > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > > Thanks, > > > > The Chairs > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c3f51a146a0304efcb11d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi All,
    =

    Please find be= low TokBox's position with regards to the straw poll responses.<= /div>

    1. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.264
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize t= hem:=C2=A0
    The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable gi= ven licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs.= The burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers esp= ecially in non-browser entities.

    2. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support VP8
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:=C2=A0

    3. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 an= d VP8
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:=C2=A0
    Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a better alternative in this lig= ht.

    4. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Browsers MUST support both H.2= 64 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    =
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them: =C2=A0

    5. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entiti= es MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    Are you in favor of= this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them:=C2=A0
    Interoperability is key and this would necessitate transcoding at a se= rver or some equally non-viable option for effectively using WebRTC.
    <= div>
    6. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable.
    =

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them:=C2=A0
    Although H.261 would be a step back in ter= ms of quality needs of WebRTC video.

    7. =C2=A0 There is no MTI video codec
    Are you= in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0
    There needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI vi= deo codec is hurting forward progress of WebRTC.

    8= . =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST suppor= t at least one of H.264 and VP8
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =C2=A0Acceptable<= /div>

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so p= lease summarize them: =C2=A0
    H.261 is not viable from a quality p= erspective and this mostly going to end up as fallback to H.261 in several = scenarios without the advantages of H264/VP8 quality.
    =C2=A0
    9. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support Theora
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summar= ize them:=C2=A0
    Technically this seems like a step back.

    10. = =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261= }
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
    <= div>
    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summariz= e them:=C2=A0
    While superficially it appears fine, in my opinion = it will hurt interoperability.

    11. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Al= l entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please sum= marize them:=C2=A0
    =C2=A0IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 are prob= lematic.

    12. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding usi= ng both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.26= 4 or VP8
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.=

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them: =C2=A0
    The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially m= itigated with decoding and I believe this will hurt adoption by small devel= opers.

    13. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.263
    <= div>Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
    Do y= ou have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0H= .263 doesn't provide better quality (as compared to VP8/H264) and poten= tial IPR risks.

    14. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least t= wo of {VP8, H.264, Theora}
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/N= o/Acceptable]: =C2=A0No.

    Do you have any objection= s to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2=A0
    =C2=A0Same problem as Point 10.

    15. =C2=A0 = =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
    Are you in= favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.

    Do = you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: =C2=A0=
    Same as 9.

    16. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST= support Motion JPEG
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acce= ptable]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this op= tion, if so please summarize them:=C2=A0
    Existing market support might be limited and again performance concern= s.=C2=A0

    Thanks,
    Badri


    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie
    Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf= .org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus Westerlund; Cullen Jenn= ings
    Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives

    =C2=A0

    Dear WG,

    =C2=A0

    This is the email announcing the straw poll across = the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=E2=80=99t rea= d the =E2=80=9CNext Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=E2=80=9D (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html<= /a> )then please do that before you continue to read.

    =C2=A0

    The straw poll=E2=80=99s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the infor= mation from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a single c= onsensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinion on at le= ast one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mai= ling list. The poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.

    =C2=A0

    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternativ= e that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions are list= ed.

    =C2=A0

    The first question is =E2=80=9CAre you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=E2=80=9D. These three levels allow you to = indicate that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really don=E2=80=99t fa= vor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with this = option but I prefer something else to be picked. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    The second question is =E2=80=9CDo you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=E2=80=9D If you have any o= bjection at a minimum indicate it with a =E2=80=9CYes=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0=C2=A0Please also add a short (1-se= ntence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =C2=A0(If yo= u wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate thread).= =C2=A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide input on as many of the alternatives= as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well inf= ormed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward f= or consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be= considered as one without any input from you. =C2=A0<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=E2= =80=99s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the = chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    If discussion causes you to update your position, p= lease feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior = to the closing date.

    =C2=A0

    = 1.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.264

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = b.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 2.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support VP8

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 3.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 4.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUS= T support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 5.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 6.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.261

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 7.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is no MTI video codec

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 8.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST suppor= t at least one of H.264 and VP8

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 9.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All entities MUST support Theora

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 10.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 61}

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 11.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.2= 63}

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 12.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8,= and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8=

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 13.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST support H.263

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 14.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, The= ora}

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 15.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    = 16.=C2= =A0 All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    = .=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= u>

    = a.=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summ= arize them:

    =C2=A0

    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h26= 4-proposal/

    =C2=A0

    VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb= -vp8/

    =C2=A0

    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specificat= ion from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/= Theora_I_spec.pdf)

    =C2=A0

    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined = in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)

    =C2=A0

    H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587

    =C2=A0

    Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    =C2=A0

    The Chairs

    =C2=A0


    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --001a11c3f51a146a0304efcb11d8-- From derhoermi@gmx.net Sun Jan 12 11:49:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4191AE019 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:49:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8wa7J0JjvyFL for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948BC1AE013 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.34.55]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M3d9B-1VBhoZ2pnd-00rIMo for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:51 +0100 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: "Karl Stahl" Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:48:51 +0100 Message-ID: References: <078501cf0fad$4e906b00$ebb14100$@stahl@intertex.se> <079c01cf0fb8$8d568350$a80389f0$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: <079c01cf0fb8$8d568350$a80389f0$@stahl@intertex.se> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:+0mlTIAm+sIrPcDE6Rpt4vsyvb+ansRgZj4kBvhtc4kshkzQq+T +7ZXRgi4H6XXkCjKICCnNef2q9qL/7dzMYgG9yJG0N1QIIC0nliDD/AUaBez3OpRiJE3vKk cmcqHcCqvOTACLK6TCFv7XDz4jpcC++P7dwg9KcQTom+hI/kRbbDWNix4UcvF9n16uVJipS CKn6RcZeP1P6q1RkCw/5A== Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding objection/explaition/experience: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:49:13 -0000 * Karl Stahl wrote: >[1] Transcoding VP8 ß> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on old >laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine. My netbook with an Intel Atom N270 (1.60 GHz, 2008) with some recent version of ffmpeg can transcode 352x288 VP8 video to H.264 at 30 fps with default options; with `-vprofile "baseline"` at over 40 fps. The machine is sure to turn on the fan if you also decode and encode some audio simultaneously, but the single core can handle the workload. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From john@jlc.net Sun Jan 12 12:56:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7271ADF98 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:56:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dnEKcuaog45K for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BFE1ACC85 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 4815EC94A9; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:56:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:56:08 -0500 From: John Leslie To: Karl Stahl Message-ID: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:56:25 -0000 Karl Stahl wrote: > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on old > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine. > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last WebRTC > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to others > real heavy DSP cabinets. (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it looks like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.) Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this is the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected. Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating in webRTC isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that we should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at line speed. It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcoding" function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or that a middleman does all the transcoding. (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IMHO folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is unbearable.) It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support both H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low- latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no obvious transcoding delay... You may flame at will... -- John Leslie From cb.list6@gmail.com Sun Jan 12 13:12:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10891ACCD8 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wbkhtN8Pt6fz for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EE51ACC85 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so1477902wib.9 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Wb/50w0/OQ0sZ4D4/AQHhCQHZ7A+Lawx0pWakmM90gk=; b=vEUFcjtT+4i2x3rpmsvthIKThMkfq10lHZh2fYB2Yco/MtacDVCwuo2Pr9tkATrbJ1 uhSNoUq82S96dv8gr+i6VesRYQKh2n1MNt/TGGu/zii8O2pO+Dnhv3nnQ7bOd7fO20iq 8qHPpj5/GlzroGt8cxxuJCJEqVkYOwPamFAtxRAP/iXWnNhVEntRAlQ4V4jloMDB8dwn azy77lKVBQK4G3UtM6etx2kxkMOcucN57F0vwmW0qmjMysux5W95AqWRtluy9yJYrUrH z0K3kzHu3FS5w2sxUX8MrAUS/FFnY9zUr9NVN7CIKjvb5tm4WV29UQJmc+X+Vqz+pIBD quNw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.132 with SMTP id hk4mr12581719wib.12.1389561150147; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:12:30 -0800 Message-ID: From: "cb.list6" To: John Leslie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3baad5bf940304efcc6a43 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:12:44 -0000 --e89a8f3baad5bf940304efcc6a43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" wrote: > > Karl Stahl wrote: > > > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on old > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine. > > > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last WebRTC > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to others > > real heavy DSP cabinets. > > (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it looks > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.) > > Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this is > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected. > > Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating in webRTC > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that we > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. > > But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at line speed. > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcoding" > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or that > a middleman does all the transcoding. > > (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IMHO > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is > unbearable.) > > It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support both > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low- > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no > obvious transcoding delay... > > You may flame at will... > I am not a codec expert. But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to bad quality. So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality. CB > -- > John Leslie > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --e89a8f3baad5bf940304efcc6a43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" <john@jlc.net> wrote:
    >
    > Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@in= tertex.se> wrote:
    > >
    > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome wit= h VP8 on old
    > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU i= s fine.
    > >
    > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the la= st WebRTC
    > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that t= o others
    > > real heavy DSP cabinets.
    >
    > =A0 =A0(I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it= looks
    > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an
    > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.)
    >
    > =A0 =A0Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this= is
    > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected.
    >
    > =A0 =A0Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating = in webRTC
    > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree th= at we
    > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. >
    > =A0 =A0But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at lin= e speed.
    > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcod= ing"
    > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or tha= t
    > a middleman does all the transcoding.
    >
    > =A0 =A0(Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IM= HO
    > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred
    > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is
    > unbearable.)
    >
    > =A0 =A0It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support bot= h
    > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low-
    > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no
    > obvious transcoding delay...
    >
    > =A0 =A0You may flame at will...
    >

    I am not a codec expert.

    But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my = knowledge, substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approx= imation. Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads t= o bad quality.=A0 So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality.

    CB
    > --
    > John Leslie <john@jlc.net> > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --e89a8f3baad5bf940304efcc6a43-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Sun Jan 12 16:23:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E871ACCDC for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sUvoHkB_p4zf for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f177.google.com (mail-ig0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AFD1ACC91 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f177.google.com with SMTP id k19so1422376igc.4 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=6O+DWz7E77ShJoViAEF3ikwTpI092pcaQ4iiuKALDg4=; b=Tje8GU2iyi1bCTp3X4RmGNFMEAHJb0N+THORjJDDgm59zQqPeSXnekjMX4ugYcrYH0 Etr+EKDtJviahhnJ3YXxDj0ElBG1WpCECzyWtpvnbmTOov46yKfgtDBYYcEGRQVHm+dh gZr0KcXG405RNE+q0C/l8V7WRyqVtJ4dW5S65d7ZWMixLIBsAIokHjODt9FSsOMQfGX/ QIl11e1Sn/gPE5ot5+MokSD7NSIxi+Sr8Zs+F89I3ji+ts0w2dJx/z5e49ZTOssdDd6o F3++/SN8bGjGKeGTojHd174bs8tfqJF9Te4rC2T0ackxk7NcqjPQfQknJcgXThm4Qgtt fQpA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmbLBZGxxzFvVdumLPF1q1wOW61huzoV0qg/puIlFqP83PWlGZQCbn8KXqAvD/VTc+ij5zj X-Received: by 10.50.176.137 with SMTP id ci9mr16247825igc.31.1389572605960; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f15sm5176503igd.3.2014.01.12.16.23.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:23:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D331F9.8000901@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:23:21 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060206070905000103010708" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:23:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060206070905000103010708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That hasn't been my experience. I am no codec expert but the transcoding quality I've seen was as good as the original (to the naked eye). My main objection to transcoding is the computational cost of doing so. In my experience, it isn't viable to do transcoding in software on mobile devices (at almost any resolution) and on desktops you will run into problems at 720p or higher. Even if it's doable for a simple P2P situation, consider that for an N:N chat, the computational cost goes through the roof. In short, transcoding severely limits scalability and increases the financial cost of any solution. Gili On 12/01/2014 4:12 PM, cb.list6 wrote: > > > On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" > wrote: > > > > Karl Stahl > > wrote: > > > > > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with > VP8 on old > > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is > fine. > > > > > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the > last WebRTC > > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to > others > > > real heavy DSP cabinets. > > > > (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it looks > > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an > > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.) > > > > Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this is > > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected. > > > > Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating in webRTC > > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that we > > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. > > > > But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at line > speed. > > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcoding" > > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or that > > a middleman does all the transcoding. > > > > (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IMHO > > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred > > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is > > unbearable.) > > > > It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support both > > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low- > > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no > > obvious transcoding delay... > > > > You may flame at will... > > > > I am not a codec expert. > > But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, > substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an > approximation. Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, > which leads to bad quality. So it is expensive, complex, and poor > quality. > > CB > > -- > > John Leslie > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------060206070905000103010708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    That hasn't been my experience. I am no codec expert but the transcoding quality I've seen was as good as the original (to the naked eye).

    My main objection to transcoding is the computational cost of doing so. In my experience, it isn't viable to do transcoding in software on mobile devices (at almost any resolution) and on desktops you will run into problems at 720p or higher. Even if it's doable for a simple P2P situation, consider that for an N:N chat, the computational cost goes through the roof. In short, transcoding severely limits scalability and increases the financial cost of any solution.

    Gili

    On 12/01/2014 4:12 PM, cb.list6 wrote:


    On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" <john@jlc.net> wrote:
    >
    > Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@intertex.se> wrote:
    > >
    > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on old
    > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine.
    > >
    > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last WebRTC
    > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to others
    > > real heavy DSP cabinets.
    >
    >    (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it looks
    > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an
    > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.)
    >
    >    Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this is
    > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected.
    >
    >    Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating in webRTC
    > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that we
    > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices.
    >
    >    But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at line speed.
    > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcoding"
    > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or that
    > a middleman does all the transcoding.
    >
    >    (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IMHO
    > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred
    > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is
    > unbearable.)
    >
    >    It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support both
    > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low-
    > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no
    > obvious transcoding delay...
    >
    >    You may flame at will...
    >

    I am not a codec expert.

    But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to bad quality.  So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality.

    CB
    > --
    > John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
    > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    _______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --------------060206070905000103010708-- From stockhammer@nomor.de Sun Jan 12 16:49:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0302F1ACCD9 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:49:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id idqZF2N5tYqf for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6571ACC91 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1389574132; l=163876; s=domk; d=nomor.de; h=To:References:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; bh=/3h5PMoH4kX2SKcZmoQ5im2n5U0=; b=SpKzGKt9XoxWjBCF61vDdqeZDdnxIbtGB1SIZdG0AiJJCgq8H2lBfJNfkYCwnQ2PwiH KlVae0CglJYYHmqoDj34qQJ4hhZOjXV585hw4ufAaM0U84jd8o9Wx5M7jt++gyY0Eylzv +33+rGZ7teRR9DdzY6frDe1dGbL7fLgYE/s= X-RZG-AUTH: :P3gLdkugevKirJkjH/RoTtk5THWq6nlFgKpnuMPeiu1/+EwFfOEVCjSZ2QKH X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from [10.14.203.144] ([12.226.90.11]) by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 32.17 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPA id 404429q0D0mZJ0T ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 01:48:35 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B2D79EE-09C4-4164-A42D-D9C00FE6067F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Stockhammer Thomas In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:48:32 -0800 Message-Id: References: To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:49:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B2D79EE-09C4-4164-A42D-D9C00FE6067F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Please find responses below: =20 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: =20 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: VP8 standardization is incomplete. Threat of of = unlicensable IPR. Not interoperable with 3GPP MTSI. =20 =20 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #2 =20 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #2. =20 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: This option potentially results in negotiation failure. =20 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: Not widely supported, low coding efficiency and other = restrictions =20 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: This option potentially results in negotiation failure, but = deployments will solve issue. =20 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #6 =20 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: unclear licensing and not widely supported. =20 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #6 and #2 =20 =20 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: Double Implementation/testing but as H.263 and H.264 = widely supported, so ok! =20 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and = MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #2. =20 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:. prefer higher efficiency H.264, but ok =20 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:. see #2 and #9 =20 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: see #9 =20 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: prefer higher efficiency H.264 =20 =20 On 09 Dec 2013, at 09:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, >=20 > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec = alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps = in Video Codec Selection Process=94 = (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then = please do that before you continue to read. >=20 > The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the = alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you = have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use = the information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put = as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an = opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide = your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The = poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014. >=20 > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have = proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. >=20 > The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that = you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I = really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I = can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. =20 >=20 > The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, = if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum = indicate it with a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) = summary of each of the objections you believe applies. (If you wish to = provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If = you have no objection, leave that question blank. >=20 > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and = feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision = the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward = for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will = simply be considered as one without any input from you. =20 >=20 > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this = thread! If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change = the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for = the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. =20 >=20 > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to = send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing = date. >=20 >=20 > All entities MUST support H.264 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support H.261 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > There is no MTI video codec > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least = one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support Theora > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support H.263 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: >=20 >=20 > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ >=20 > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ >=20 > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, = 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) >=20 > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T = rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) >=20 > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 >=20 > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > The Chairs >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --- Dr. Thomas Stockhammer (CEO) || stockhammer@nomor.de || phone +49 89 = 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com Nomor Research GmbH - Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=FCnchen - = Registergericht: M=FCnchen, HRB 165856 =96 Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 = - Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo Viering. =20 --Apple-Mail=_7B2D79EE-09C4-4164-A42D-D9C00FE6067F Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2BA6FBBD-107B-454B-BA35-AB2527312DBA" --Apple-Mail=_2BA6FBBD-107B-454B-BA35-AB2527312DBA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
    Please find responses below:
     
    1. All = entities MUST support H.264
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = YES
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
     
    2. All entities MUST support = VP8
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
                    VP8 = standardization is incomplete. Threat of of = unlicensable IPR. Not interoperable with 3GPP MTSI. =  
     
    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and = VP8
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
                    see = #2
     
    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
        =             see = #2.
     
    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    This option potentially results in negotiation = failure.
     
    6. All entities MUST support = H.261
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
        =            Not widely supported, low = coding efficiency and other restrictions
     
    7. There is no MTI video codec
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    = This option = potentially results in negotiation failure, but deployments will solve = issue.
     
    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST = support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
    see = #6
     
    9. All = entities MUST support Theora
    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
        =            unclear licensing and not = widely supported.
     
    10. All = entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
     see #6 and #2         =      
     
    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, = H.264, H.263}
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = ACCEPTABLE
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
        =             Double = Implementation/testing but as H.263 and H.264 widely supported, so = ok!
     
    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and = VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or = VP8
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
        =            see = #2.
     
    13. All entities MUST support = H.263
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:.
    = prefer higher efficiency H.264, but ok
     
    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, = H.264, Theora}
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:.
              &= nbsp;     see #2 and = #9
     
    15. All entities MUST support decoding using = Theora.
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO
    b. Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:
    = see #9
     
    16. All entities MUST support Motion = JPEG
    a. Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = Acceptable
    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
      = prefer = higher efficiency H.264        =       
     

    On 09 Dec 2013, at 09:24, Ted = Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

    Dear WG,

    This is the = email announcing the straw poll across the video codec alternatives = proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps in Video = Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/ma= il-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then please = do that before you continue to read.

    The straw = poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the alternatives = that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, if any, = against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the information = from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a single = consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinion on = at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll = input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will = run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.

    As can be seen = below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed to the WG. For = each alternative two questions are listed.

    The first = question is =93Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. = These three levels allow you to indicate that you: Yes=3D I would be = fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really don=92t favor = this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with this = option but I prefer something else to be picked.  

    The second = question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it with a = =93Yes=94.   Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of = each of the objections you believe applies.  (If you wish to = provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate thread). =  If you have no objection, leave that question blank.

    Please provide = input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel comfortable to = do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the WG chairs can = take when identifying the option to be brought forward for consensus. = Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be considered = as one without any input from you.  

    WG = participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this thread! = If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the = subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the = chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. =  

    If discussion = causes you to update your position, please feel free to send an update = via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing = date.


    1. All entities MUST support H.264
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    2. All entities MUST support VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST = support at least one of H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    6. All entities MUST support H.261
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    7. There is no MTI video codec
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    9. All entities MUST support Theora
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, = and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or = VP8
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    13. All entities MUST support H.263
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = Theora}
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:
    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG
      1. Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]:
      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please = summarize them:




    Theora is a = reference to Xiph.org Theora = Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/th= eora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)

    H.263 is a = reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 = (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-= H.263/)

    H.261 is a = reference to http://tools.ietf.org/= html/rfc4587

    Motion JPEG is = a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/= html/rfc2435


    Thanks,

    The = Chairs

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing = list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    ---
    Dr. Thomas Stockhammer (CEO) || stockhammer@nomor.de || = phone +49 89 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com
    Nomor Research = GmbH  -  Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=FCnchen - Registergericht: = M=FCnchen, HRB 165856 =96 Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 - = Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo = Viering.



     

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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB471ADBCF for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k00fV5j_81Cp for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22e.google.com (mail-ve0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CB61ADBCD for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f174.google.com with SMTP id cz12so1860420veb.5 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=roGtE7iijJxMKI6Jab+ShHWckH+ARx+vO1WZPZGZixk=; b=JpfBxjDgGt0fBtKb9MvlxOy+/cR16+9VSE0Wobcj/XSeZghr4xjPZgUDwPRbhPZrVk /RLiMA6Hw4mzA/W82SPV2YgFXllhEvyR3FWh6xbs+3DLcKFaqcyRJpq1yGQ7uwQcnELc RyHuQbDLxYKQ37u6oPr/nC7O0ZoVx3SZm2GLbUmRIqtclqAvPIsswDjrrN2PUEgmWUV8 7KZaEwpSkeQUw/7TqS/6DsH5UzhOu4e1pRkBlio0iOsmXqTLUjVIXdDFsXsJDRt1RcZt hzxUfssg7t/rxMz0PBuy/owQkgqisae/fpj8MeMNol3tS1K0N8UUUN+WrpVC2e4IC4Vk Wxpg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.254.232 with SMTP id al8mr271473vdd.56.1389582014880; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.100.133 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:00:14 -0800 Message-ID: From: matt frost To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133f7c4621f4704efd146cc Subject: Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb Digest, Vol 34, Issue 21 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:00:31 -0000 --001a1133f7c4621f4704efd146cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My responses to the straw poll below: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263: 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: From: Ted Hardie > To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo < > Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Richard Barnes , Magnus > Westerlund , Cullen Jennings < > fluffy@cisco.com> > Cc: > Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:24:35 -0800 > Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives > > Dear WG, > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps = in > Video Codec Selection Process=94 ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinio= n > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed t= o > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that yo= u: > Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really = don=92t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with t= his > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if s= o > please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it = with > a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of th= e > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objectio= n, > leave that question blank. > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the W= G > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this thread= ! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to sen= d > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 201= 1 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T re= c > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a1133f7c4621f4704efd146cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My responses to the straw poll below:
    =A0

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8=A0

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =A0NO<= /p>

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least= one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}=

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263:

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:


    From:=A0Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
    To:=A0"rtcweb@iet= f.org" <rt= cweb@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>= ;, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@eri= csson.com>, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
    Cc:=A0
    Date:=A0Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:24:35 -0800
    Subject:=A0[rtcweb] Str= aw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives

    Dear WG,


    This is the email announcing the straw poll a= cross the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t rea= d the =93Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/m= sg10448.html )then please do that = before you continue to read.


    The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG ch= airs will use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternati= ve to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that = has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide= your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll= will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.


    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alte= rnative that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions ar= e listed.


    The first question is =93Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indica= te that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = =3D I really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = =3D I can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. = =A0


    The second question is =93Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objecti= on at a minimum indicate it with a =93Yes=94. =A0=A0Please also add a short= (1-sentence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =A0(If= you wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate threa= d). =A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.


    Please provide input on as many of the altern= atives as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more we= ll informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to = be brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave b= lank, will simply be considered as one without any input from you. =A0


    WG participants, please do not comment on any= one=92s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are m= aking life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw= poll. =A0


    If discussion causes you to update your posit= ion, please feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread = prior to the closing date.



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --001a1133f7c4621f4704efd146cc-- From matthew.kaufman@skype.net Sun Jan 12 19:30:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E391ADBCC for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:30:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LB6Swx8upUqJ for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1blp0183.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5425A1AD8EB for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:30:33 -0800 (PST) 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Alternatives) Thread-Index: Ac8QD4Dp8aLlrPYfQd+aQM509ytxPA== Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:29:46 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.34] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195FC38TK5EX14MBXC295r_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.37; CTRY:US; IPV:NLI; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; 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X-Forefront-PRVS: 00909363D5 X-OriginatorOrg: skype.net Subject: [rtcweb] Your reply (was RE: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:30:41 -0000 --_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195FC38TK5EX14MBXC295r_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SeKAmW0gYWZyYWlkIEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBiZWxvdyBhdCBhbGzigKYgSUVU RiBhbGxvd3MgaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMgdG8gY29udHJpYnV0ZSwgc28gaXMgdGhpcyB5b3VyIGluZGl2 aWR1YWwgY29udHJpYnV0aW9uPyBJZiBzbywgY2FuIHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgcmUtc3VibWl0IGl0IGFz IHN1Y2jigKYgaWYgbm90LCBJ4oCZbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB5b3VyIG9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbiBoYXMgY29t ZSB0byB0aGUgY29ycmVjdCB2ZW51ZS4NCg0KTWF0dGhldyBLYXVmbWFuDQoNCkZyb206IHJ0Y3dl 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cmlmJnF1b3Q7Ij5UaGUgQ2hhaXJzPC9zcGFuPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCIgc3R5bGU9Im1zby1tYXJnaW4tdG9wLWFsdDphdXRvO21zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9t LWFsdDphdXRvIj4mbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjEyLjBwdCI+PGJyPg0K X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX188YnI+DQpydGN3 ZWIgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0PGJyPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOnJ0Y3dlYkBpZXRmLm9yZyIgdGFy Z2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPnJ0Y3dlYkBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQo8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3J0Y3dlYiIgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcnRjd2ViPC9hPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9w Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNw OzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9o dG1sPg0K --_000_AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4844195FC38TK5EX14MBXC295r_-- From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sun Jan 12 20:07:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E4F1AE01A for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdiki1tiQRW4 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87DD11ADDD1 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s0D47FRn019478; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:07:15 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 41c1_525f_2fc42c30_7c08_11e3_97be_001e6722eec2; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:07:15 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE7BBF53B; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:07:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52D36660.30405@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:06:56 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann References: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] =?utf-8?q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst=27s_preferences?= X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:07:39 -0000 Hello Bj=C3=B6rn, On 2014/01/13 4:19, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> Below are my opinions. I'm using a numerical with 0.0 meaning NO and 1= .0 >> meaning YES, everything in between is acceptable, with various degrees= . > > Among the single codec options your order of preference then is > > VP8> H.261> H.264>=3D no MTI> MJPEG> Theora> H.263 > 0.8> 0.4> 0.2>=3D 0.2> 0.1> 0.05> 0.01 Thanks for working that out. >>> 9. All entities MUST support Theora >>> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 0.05 >>> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summa= rize >>> them: >> I don't think there are significantly less risks with Theora than with >> VP8, so I don't think it's worth prescribing, because quality is less >> than VP8. > >>> 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG >>> Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: >> 0.1 >>> Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summa= rize >>> them: >> If it can be shown that Motion JPEG produces acceptable results for si= gn >> language, then this is an alternative to H.261. > > An alternative to H.261 should have at least 0.2 in your rating system. > It looks as though you prefer MJPEG, even without sign language support= , > to Theora, which has no difficulty with sign language at normal rates. As everybody in this discussion should know by now, there is more than=20 one criterion to judge codecs. Almost everybody has considered at least=20 quality and licencing, to mention two. What makes finding rough=20 consensus difficult are not only the clear disagreements on the=20 licensing side, but also the opinions about quality (degradation being=20 okay or not,...). In my case, Theora got that low because in my summary judgment, it=20 doesn't provide any advantages when compared to VP8 with respect to=20 licensing. On the other hand, MJPEG is clearly much less of a problem=20 with respect to patents and stuff. Regards, Martin. From ron@debian.org Sun Jan 12 21:06:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45451AE020 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:06:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4yJqRxV2NUC for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126171AE01A for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 15:36:36 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039B54F8F3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:36:32 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 9QNowpPl+x2C for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:36:31 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5BD3F4F902; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:36:31 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:36:31 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:06:49 -0000 On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 01:12:30PM -0800, cb.list6 wrote: > > I am not a codec expert. > > But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, > substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. > Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to bad > quality. So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality. That must be why youtube transcodes *everything* uploaded to it. Clearly they want to provide an expensive, complex, poor quality service that nobody will ever use. I'm glad the best of your knowledge has cleared that mystery up for us. Crosseyed and painless, Ron From ron@debian.org Sun Jan 12 21:15:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AA21AD687 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:15:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byaIFUPl1d8V for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D965A1AD190 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 15:45:21 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FC24F8F3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:45:21 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id OEHrA-EuwVub for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:45:20 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 90E574F902; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:45:20 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:45:20 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113051520.GI3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <52D36660.30405@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <52D36660.30405@it.aoyama.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] =?iso-8859-1?q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=27s_preferences?= X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:15:34 -0000 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 01:06:56PM +0900, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: > > In my case, Theora got that low because in my summary judgment, it > doesn't provide any advantages when compared to VP8 with respect to > licensing. It's not quite that simple. Microsoft ships Theora video from its Bing service, and Cisco ships VP8 in its hardware products. And both of them have very clear licences. Maybe their lawyers can get together for lunch and reassure each other of their respective positions. Ron From randell-ietf@jesup.org Sun Jan 12 21:29:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B0F1ADED6 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:29:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHqHaHBZ5S3G for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08B31A1F7D for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-173-49-144-199.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([173.49.144.199]:1671 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2a5D-0004HO-ER for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 23:29:07 -0600 Message-ID: <52D37969.7000705@jesup.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:28:09 -0500 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070508000501070705070906" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:29:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070508000501070705070906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > The downloadable codec from Cisco does not cover everyone's > use-cases or requirements. Cisco's download while offered for > the foreseeable future could in theory be yanked at any time, > perhaps due to circumstances beyond the management's control. > (It does cost them money.) It's unclear how well this covers > the use-cases of WebRTC server developers. Also, the Cisco > option only provides assurances from MPEG-LA; this does not > cover the encoder (and so an IPR claim against Cisco could > force it to be pulled). See also > http://www.att.com/gen/sites/ipsales?pid=19116 which is not > covered by the Cisco MPEG-LA agreement. > Also, small entities that might need to license directly via > MPEG-LA would be blocked from the market due to legal costs, > time, accounting for uses, etc. > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *Yes* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > A downloadable option similar to Cisco's H.264 may resolve > some of the issues that people have with VP8 IPR worries. > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.2) > * > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Somewhat acceptable because it provides a guaranteed fallback > if H.264 got pulled. This would still cause major problems > for both those who won't/can't do H.264 or won't/can't do > VP8. (See downloadable option though.) Those that won't do > one can break MTI; if those are only servers this won't be > horrible but if browsers break the MTI it could lead to > interop failure. > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.3)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Same issues as #3. > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Causes major problems for the feature due to inability to > complete video calls. Calls will fail and the user won't > understand. > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Does not provide reasonable quality interoperability. > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > While we may end up there by default, it does not produce an > acceptable result. Calls will fail and the user won't > understand. Same problem as #5. Acceptable only as a "will > be decided later" case, and pretty bad there. Probably > perferred to some of the other No's though, so maybe > Acceptable (0.05) > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.1)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Preferred only over the worse options like No MTI or H.261 > only. Barely acceptable as it will ensure completion of > calls. Same issues as #6. Would accept this over No MTI or > H.261 only. #10 would be preferred over this. > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.2)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Similar to objections to #6 (though likely better quality), > however with some added IPR risk. Similar to #13 with perhaps > less IPR issues (to be seen though). > >10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.3)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Guarantees interoperability. Doesn't guarantee high quality, > could cause real problems for people with constrained or > capped bandwidth (i.e. mobile). Similar issues to #3, though > somewhat better. Prefer to #3. > >11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.3)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Better than #10 (lower bandwidth requirement, more impls > available) modulo that some entities would not feel > comfortable with being forced to implement H.263 (and license > it, fail to comply with the spec, or risk going > license-less). Provides an acceptable (if not good) quality > interop fallback; slightly improves legacy interop with older > technologies. Downloadable codecs for H.264 and VP8 will help > if those meet the MTI requirement. If a downloadable H.263 > codec were available and licensed, this would be more preferred. > >12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Slightly preferred over requiring both, in that many IPR > pitfalls might be in the encoders (and may simplify devices > with only one hardware encoder). > >13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Worse than #1 as there's no downloadable option and has IPR issues > >14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > *Acceptable (0.3)* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Similar to #11; no requirement to license H.263 but adds some > IPR risk and removes old-legacy interop. > >15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Decode-only Theora MTI is weird/useless > >16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: *No* > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > Quality at bandwidth is unlikely to be good enough to ensure > acceptable interop. Similar to H.261 with the improvement of > re-use of common implementations, but with a downside of > considerably lower quality at the same bitrate/resolution. > -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com --------------070508000501070705070906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



    1. All entities MUST support H.264

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        The downloadable codec from Cisco does not cover everyone's use-cases or requirements.  Cisco's download while offered for the foreseeable future could in theory be yanked at any time, perhaps due to circumstances beyond the management's control.  (It does cost them money.)  It's unclear how well this covers the use-cases of WebRTC server developers.  Also, the Cisco option only provides assurances from MPEG-LA; this does not cover the encoder (and so an IPR claim against Cisco could force it to be pulled).  See also http://www.att.com/gen/sites/ipsales?pid=19116 which is not covered by the Cisco MPEG-LA agreement.
        Also, small entities that might need to license directly via MPEG-LA would be blocked from the market due to legal costs, time, accounting for uses, etc.

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        A downloadable option similar to Cisco's H.264 may resolve some of the issues that people have with VP8 IPR worries.

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.2)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Somewhat acceptable because it provides a guaranteed fallback if H.264 got pulled.  This would still cause major problems for both those who won't/can't do H.264 or won't/can't do VP8.  (See downloadable option though.)  Those that won't do one can break MTI; if those are only servers this won't be horrible but if browsers break the MTI it could lead to interop failure.

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.3)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Same issues as #3.

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Causes major problems for the feature due to inability to complete video calls.          Calls will fail and the user won't understand.

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Does not provide reasonable quality interoperability.

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        While we may end up there by default, it does not produce an acceptable result.  Calls will fail and the user won't understand.  Same problem as #5.  Acceptable only as a "will be decided later" case, and pretty bad there.  Probably perferred to some of the other No's though, so maybe Acceptable (0.05)

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.1)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Preferred only over the worse options like No MTI or H.261 only.  Barely acceptable as it will ensure completion of calls.  Same issues as #6.  Would accept this over No MTI or H.261 only.  #10 would be preferred over this.

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.2)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Similar to objections to #6 (though likely better quality), however with some added IPR risk.  Similar to #13 with perhaps less IPR issues (to be seen though).

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.3)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Guarantees interoperability.  Doesn't guarantee high quality, could cause real problems for people with constrained or capped bandwidth (i.e. mobile). Similar issues to #3, though somewhat better.  Prefer to #3.

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.3)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Better than #10 (lower bandwidth requirement, more impls available) modulo that some entities would not feel comfortable with being forced to implement H.263 (and license it, fail to comply with the spec, or risk going license-less).  Provides an acceptable (if not good) quality interop fallback; slightly improves legacy interop with older technologies.  Downloadable codecs for H.264 and VP8 will help if those meet the MTI requirement.  If a downloadable H.263 codec were available and licensed, this would be more preferred.

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Slightly preferred over requiring both, in that many IPR pitfalls might be in the encoders (and may simplify devices with only one hardware encoder).

    13. All entities MUST support H.263

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Worse than #1 as there's no downloadable option and has IPR issues

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable (0.3)

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Similar to #11; no requirement to license H.263 but adds some IPR risk and removes old-legacy interop.

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Decode-only Theora MTI is weird/useless

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:
        Quality at bandwidth is unlikely to be good enough to ensure acceptable interop.  Similar to H.261 with the improvement of re-use of common implementations, but with a downside of considerably lower quality at the same bitrate/resolution.



    -- 
Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com
    --------------070508000501070705070906-- From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sun Jan 12 22:37:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30E31AE03B for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:37:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cX24TnpSGB8E for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF611AE040 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s0D6bSti014673; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:37:30 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 41c5_230e_2bbfeef2_7c1d_11e3_bb49_001e6722eec2; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:37:27 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B93ABF53B; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:37:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52D38994.4080905@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:37:08 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron References: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <52D36660.30405@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140113051520.GI3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140113051520.GI3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] =?utf-8?q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst=27s_preferences?= X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:38:00 -0000 On 2014/01/13 14:15, Ron wrote: > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 01:06:56PM +0900, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote: >> >> In my case, Theora got that low because in my summary judgment, it >> doesn't provide any advantages when compared to VP8 with respect to >> licensing. > > It's not quite that simple. Yes. That's why I very consciously wrote "my summary judgment". Regards, Martin. > Microsoft ships Theora video from its > Bing service, and Cisco ships VP8 in its hardware products. And both > of them have very clear licences. > > Maybe their lawyers can get together for lunch and reassure each > other of their respective positions. > > Ron > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From ekr@rtfm.com Sun Jan 12 22:40:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75A11AE04C for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:40:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGVbvvpy-6BV for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f173.google.com (mail-we0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E830B1AE040 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id t60so6165129wes.18 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=FQf/Kz3brM01pwM2hSBeBTYhM6Hu5RivlLMBz+2uMmc=; b=MAdV+bSOB0J6n7jIepNNEn6YEy57XgAOZiUhjisj9sowMSoQBVLmTvREvL7RExO1EX UEcbgLEzwZsFrKPLb7ver5MCc8BbdBSdjq0pUkkyklCxg0KzQoEVO3dTrZC5nYtRMiTp fzuEETUpsq5qI7qR7mZyWbINgY8JLaCTzMAql4VIyRSVOoU7/h/7Gj6CXNNS4Ptt2ehK 99Ul1WB2UspOJEL6oLRb4Y+I/VZVQOBO3iUVlzvZCTXtm82aKwSuzzocNDBOFotGhqdF 1QsU3HytaHUtHV7y9PFBx1HgZNC5G+OtHFAppd0cSFitQXSQ9SkbL/KdgmJdhxkjBBdD aKTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmMoEfrSe5ImotRx4l3Vhnze1MUFzu7r55M4b6VlQVdE6hMSpnBfAfA1vjmxfVUkhiF6Mmv X-Received: by 10.180.84.166 with SMTP id a6mr13708104wiz.49.1389595226392; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:40:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.54.194 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:39:44 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:39:44 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:40:39 -0000 I am not distinguishing between Yes and Acceptable. I think that's silly. > All entities MUST support H.264 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Yes. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support H.261 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > There is no MTI video codec > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support Theora > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support H.263 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: From mark.hsj@gmail.com Sun Jan 12 18:35:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB271AD627 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Euhlzpv9ioo for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617DC1ACCF9 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 131so421982ykp.7 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=D/cDUBwrJOeaxGa+UaTFy6tDL+zfQiTW/+mBA5Wbckg=; b=JI7c66m2kGyJZ1WlYYq8VRkYfNc2kJ7N/zwX0igEBTrAI14gXiEtaqUj4HB/+xlFrT FKNPQtGByvtokXaxU5CXUcyeAbKLhQGjAcA3VwKohbzgM/WtaRzCE9KjQBw1UDZctMy7 iM3eYWCXOMTYT5/gXTDm4gtTeVzgFn7q+W7TYnA0fPJuzepfjI7WxRWmwLbTsoDU1xb2 8+J9E7i+OI2AuwjE3Jv8VZoR3+H15uJWbU5t0viT+TBUVjsBPiwhJEhesA1J4CRSaxRy YLjFBoR9nJM/R4PqtXSzbOYtUdGYDjoAhhhV3HtGlqXyfTSbPyt7CDLopRpivywtU6uo hYRQ== X-Received: by 10.236.125.230 with SMTP id z66mr137306yhh.104.1389580521498; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmail.com ([2601:9:2080:7b:217:f2ff:fe01:ad74]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w50sm24217838yhc.15.2014.01.12.18.35.19 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:20 -0800 (PST) Sender: Mark Harris Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:35:17 -0800 From: Mark Harris To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113023517.GB29266@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 01:08:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:35:34 -0000 > 1. All entities MUST support H.264 NO H.264 patent license restricts participation. > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 YES > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 NO H.264 patent license restricts participation. > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 NO H.264 patent license restricts browser participation. > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 ACCEPTABLE Revisit to ensure interoperability when the codec landscape changes. > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 ACCEPTABLE > 7. There is no MTI video codec ACCEPTABLE Revisit to ensure interoperability when the codec landscape changes. > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 ACCEPTABLE > 9. All entities MUST support Theora ACCEPTABLE > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} ACCEPTABLE > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO H.264 and H.263 patent licenses restrict participation. > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 NO H.264 patent license restricts participation. > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 NO H.263 patent license restricts participation. > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} ACCEPTABLE > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. ACCEPTABLE > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG ACCEPTABLE Although it may not be suitable for full motion video over the Internet, Motion JPEG is a nice option for sending individual photos, presentation slides, screen shots, or even a single still profile picture in the event that the user is unable or does not wish to transmit live video for whatever reason. Browsers already contain optimized JPEG decoders which are unlikely to be going away any time soon given the vast quantity of JPEG images on the web. Although it is possible to send images over the data channel, that requires the JavaScript to handle this as a special case and does not allow the browser to give the user the option to simply substitute a still JPEG image (or series of images) when live video is requested. If a common modern video codec could be guaranteed to be available, there would be little reason to consider this option since modern video codecs can also do a great job encoding still pictures. However it is looking increasingly likely that there will be no MTI modern video codec for some time. A guarantee that at least still images can be processed, even in the absence of a common modern video codec, and without special provisions in the JS to process images over the data channel, still adds quite a bit of value over audio-only. Most people already have audio-only capabilities that are far better integrated since they've been around much longer, and would therefore be reluctant to move to WebRTC if it was also seen as only able to guarantee audio communication. Even the most basic feature phones can already decode JPEG images and have a camera capable of producing single JPEGs, so it makes a great lowest common denominator that all devices capable of meeting other WebRTC requirements should be able to handle, even if they do not have a camera, CPU, Internet connection, or hardware encoder APIs sufficient to support full motion video. Therefore there is little reason to select no MTI over this, unless there is an explicit desire to allow audio-only devices to claim WebRTC conformance, which in my opinion would dilute the value of that label. To clarify my position, I am not suggesting that all entities should be required to support 30 fps Motion JPEG, which as others have pointed out would require quite a bit of bandwidth. Decoding and display at 1 fps or possibly even less may be a suitable minimum requirement, in order to ensure that at a minimum still images such as photos, slides, and screen shots can be processed. As for encoding, I am open to any minimum requirement from an ability to send a single preselected JPEG, to a requirement for 1 fps Motion JPEG live video, with restart markers to facilitate decoding when some packets of a frame are lost. Any entity supporting more than 1 fps video should also implement a more advanced video codec. Adoption of Motion JPEG as MTI should also not preclude adoption of an additional video codec as MTI at a later date, once the video codec landscape changes and consensus can be reached on a more advanced video codec. - Mark From otto.wittner@uninett.no Mon Jan 13 02:05:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4DB1AE107 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BHZN68vSmEgn for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from epost.uninett.no (epost.uninett.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:8::180:100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC391AE06D for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlottwit13.ikt.uninett.no (unknown [IPv6:2001:700:1:0:44ba:25c1:6c91:9ffb]) by epost.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A691D336646 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:04:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D3BA42.9040105@uninett.no> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:04:50 +0100 From: Otto J Wittner Organization: UNINETT AS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:05:07 -0000 My response to the straw poll: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 NO, truly (as possible) royalty free codec required 2. All entities MUST support VP8 YES 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 NO, truly (as possible) royalty free codec required 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 NO, truly (as possible) royalty free codec required 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 NO, truly (as possible) royalty free codec required 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Acceptable 7. There is no MTI video codec NO, failed negotiations between browser/entiteis will occur more often than acceptable 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Acceptable 9. All entities MUST support Theora Acceptable, but as VP8 is "next gen Theora" it seems like a step backwards 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Acceptable 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} NO, unclear royalty situation for H.263 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 NO, rtcweb is not only about streaming. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 NO, unclear royalty situation for H.263 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Acceptable 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. NO, but a SHOULD would be fair legacy content 1. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Acceptable On 12/09/13 18:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven’t read the “Next Steps in > Video Codec Selection Process” ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > The straw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinion > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed to > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > The first question is “Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:”. These three levels allow you to indicate that you: > Yes= I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = I really don’t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = I can live with this > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > The second question is “Do you have any objections to this option, if so > please explain it:” If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it with > a “Yes”. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of the > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objection, > leave that question blank. > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the WG > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone’s input in this thread! If > you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the subject > line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the chairs very > difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to send > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 ( > http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > -- Otto J Wittner Tel 73557945 UNINETT AS Mob 99550566 From chris.cavigioli@intel.com Mon Jan 13 03:03:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43FA1AE12A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7SNGKH1Pe0D for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31221AE109 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga002.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.21]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 02:58:56 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,652,1384329600"; d="scan'208,217";a="465772427" Received: from fmsmsx104.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.19.9.35]) by orsmga002.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 03:02:55 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx113.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.116.7) by FMSMSX104.amr.corp.intel.com (10.19.9.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:02:55 -0800 Received: from FMSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.185]) by FMSMSX113.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.4.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:02:55 -0800 From: "Cavigioli, Chris" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , cb.list6 , "John Leslie" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Transcoding Thread-Index: AQHPD9i9unkzNVE/RU+FGLUex5lpBZqCHGwAgABOnWA= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:02:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.200.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213ADEFMSMSX110amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:03:12 -0000 --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213ADEFMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, transcoding consumes significant compute resources, draws power and ge= nerates heat. With good technology, that can be somewhat mitigated, but ev= en if you had the world's largest supercomputer on the head of a pin, trans= coding introduces speech frame buffer delays that are irreducible. Add to = those codec latencies, another set of latencies for jitter buffer in the re= ceiver side and then also another jitter buffer in the network for the tran= scoder's receiver side ... then add extra buffer delays when audio and vide= o don't sync up and you slip to the next timeslot. In speakerphone configu= rations, you add extra delay for acoustic echo cancellation. Then you add = the latencies going in the return path. Before you know it, you have signi= ficantly noticeable mouth-to-ear latencies. Once these the round-trip dela= y gets to a certain level, people begin to double-talk and it makes a conve= rsational dialog very difficult, especially when you have a multiparty call= to discuss a contentious topic. Imagine you are a service provider. If WebRTC becomes widespread, then ser= vice providers will need to invest capex to purchase & maintain transcoders= to support "free" calls. Does this make financial business sense? Will WebRTC gain a reputation for poor user experience due to round-trip de= lay? We may argue about H.264 and VP8 today, but in the blink of an eye, we'll b= e arguing about H.265 and VP9 ... but wait ... there will still be H.264 an= d VP8 infrastructure and devices out there. So you can either chose to tra= nscode an ever-growing list of evolving codecs ... or better ... use OFFER/= ANSWER to negotiate transcoder-free operation so that each session will nar= row-down to a common codec for all participants from a constrained list of = mandatory codecs. Thus WebRTC systems must support both VP8 and H.264 toda= y, then also VP9 and H.265 in the future ... as well as the voice channel w= ith Opus, G.711, AMR, AMR-WB and probably eventually also EVS, G.722, etc. Chris Cavigioli Intel Corp, Marketing & Product Planning, Graphics/Multimedia, Mobile and C= ommunications Group (MCG) +1 (415) 254-4545 mobile +1 (408) 653-8348 desk +1 (408) 884-2400 fax This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole u= se of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is s= trictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact t= he sender and delete all copies. From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cb.list6 Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 1:13 PM To: John Leslie Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" >= wrote: > > Karl Stahl > wrote: > > > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome with VP8 on = old > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU is fine= . > > > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the last Web= RTC > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that to othe= rs > > real heavy DSP cabinets. > > (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; but it looks > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.) > > Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; but this is > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected. > > Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participating in webRTC > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that we > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. > > But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding at line speed= . > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcoding" > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or that > a middleman does all the transcoding. > > (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- but IMHO > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is > unbearable.) > > It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will support both > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low- > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no > obvious transcoding delay... > > You may flame at will... > I am not a codec expert. But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, subs= tantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. Transc= oding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to bad quality. = So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality. CB > -- > John Leslie > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213ADEFMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Yes, transcoding consumes s= ignificant compute resources, draws power and generates heat.  With go= od technology, that can be somewhat mitigated, but even if you had the world’s largest supercomputer on the head of a pin, transcod= ing introduces speech frame buffer delays that are irreducible.  Add t= o those codec latencies, another set of latencies for jitter buffer in the = receiver side and then also another jitter buffer in the network for the transcoder’s receiver side … the= n add extra buffer delays when audio and video don’t sync up and you = slip to the next timeslot.  In speakerphone configurations, you add ex= tra delay for acoustic echo cancellation.  Then you add the latencies going in the return path.  Before you know it, you have= significantly noticeable mouth-to-ear latencies.  Once these the roun= d-trip delay gets to a certain level, people begin to double-talk and it ma= kes a conversational dialog very difficult, especially when you have a multiparty call to discuss a contentious topic.=

     

    Imagine you are a service p= rovider.  If WebRTC becomes widespread, then service providers will ne= ed to invest capex to purchase & maintain transcoders to support “free” calls.  Does this make financial business sense?

     

    Will WebRTC gain a reputati= on for poor user experience due to round-trip delay?

     

    We may argue about H.264 an= d VP8 today, but in the blink of an eye, we’ll be arguing about H.265= and VP9 … but wait … there will still be H.264 and VP8 infrast= ructure and devices out there.  So you can either chose to transcode an ever-= growing list of evolving codecs … or better … use OFFER/ANSWER = to negotiate transcoder-free operation so that each session will narrow-dow= n to a common codec for all participants from a constrained list of mandatory codecs.  Thus WebRTC systems must support both VP8 = and H.264 today, then also VP9 and H.265 in the future … as well as t= he voice channel with Opus, G.711, AMR, AMR-WB and probably eventually also= EVS, G.722, etc.

     

    Chris Cavigioli

    Intel Corp, Marketing &= ; Product Planning, Graphics/Multimedia, Mobile and Communications Group (M= CG)

    +1 (415) 254-4545 mobi= le

    +1 (408) 653-8348 desk=

    +1 (408) 884-2400 fax<= /span>

    This e-mail may contain confi= dential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(= s).  Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delet= e all copies.

     

    From: rtcweb [= mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cb.list6
    Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 1:13 PM
    To: John Leslie
    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding

     


    On Jan 12, 2014 12:56 PM, "John Leslie" <john@jlc.net> wrote:
    >
    > Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@in= tertex.se> wrote:
    > >
    > > [1] Transcoding VP8 ?> H.264 is very CPU intensive. Chrome wit= h VP8 on old
    > > laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. Core i5 CPU i= s fine.
    > >
    > > Even the master of transcoding, ACME Packet/Oracle said at the la= st WebRTC
    > > conference that they will not support transcoding, leaving that t= o others
    > > real heavy DSP cabinets.
    >
    >    (I will write an analysis _after_ the straw poll closes; = but it looks
    > like that analysis will state we should consider transcoding as an
    > alternative to one-or-more MTI codecs.)
    >
    >    Transcoding _seems_ to be almost universally rejected; bu= t this is
    > the first clear description of _why_ it's rejected.
    >
    >    Clearly, some hardware that we'd like to see participatin= g in webRTC
    > isn't capable of transcoding at line speed. Thus, I fully agree that w= e
    > should reject transcoding as a requirement for _all_ webRTC devices. >
    >    But other hardware will surely be capable of transcoding = at line speed.
    > It might be painful, but we _could_ specify a "negotiate transcod= ing"
    > function which decided that one end does all the transcoding -- or tha= t
    > a middleman does all the transcoding.
    >
    >    (Of course, part of the pain is the transcoding delay -- = but IMHO
    > folks are pretty tolerant of lip-sync mismatch of several hundred
    > milliseconds: it's the mismatch of one second or more which is
    > unbearable.)
    >
    >    It appears _very_ likely that several browsers will suppo= rt both
    > H.264 and VP8 natively; and others will be able to specify a low-
    > latecy middleman. Thus, we can hope for the normal case to be no
    > obvious transcoding delay...
    >
    >    You may flame at will...
    >

    I am not a codec expert.

    But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge, s= ubstantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. Tra= nscoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to bad qualit= y.  So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality.

    CB
    > --
    > John Leslie <john@jlc.net> > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213ADEFMSMSX110amrcor_-- From chris.cavigioli@intel.com Mon Jan 13 03:03:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDEE1AE109 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id voIKnTjYxHDU for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE091AE05C for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga002.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.21]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 02:58:56 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,652,1384329600"; d="scan'208,217";a="465772412" Received: from fmsmsx104.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.19.9.35]) by orsmga002.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 03:02:55 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx155.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.116.71) by FMSMSX104.amr.corp.intel.com (10.19.9.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:02:53 -0800 Received: from FMSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.185]) by FMSMSX155.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.5.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 03:02:53 -0800 From: "Cavigioli, Chris" To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , Richard Barnes , Magnus Westerlund , "Cullen Jennings" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHO9QOYx3vvGbPBK0KeFG6EHe2AAJqCp26g Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:02:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.200.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213AD5FMSMSX110amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:03:13 -0000 --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213AD5FMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is my straw below... Chris Cavigioli Intel Corp, Marketing & Product Planning, Graphics/Multimedia, Mobile and C= ommunications Group (MCG) +1 (415) 254-4545 mobile +1 (408) 653-8348 desk +1 (408) 884-2400 fax This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole u= se of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is s= trictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact t= he sender and delete all copies. From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus Westerlund; = Cullen Jennings Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives *SNIP* 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO, incomplete. This is necessary, but not sufficient. b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: One codec isn't enough 2. All entities MUST support VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO, incomplete. This is necessary, but not sufficient. a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: One codec isn't enough 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES, there is no commercially-viable alternative. Transcoding must be avoi= ded at all costs if we intend to provide a good end-user experience. a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Given the passion behind each camp, we must deploy both. Android, iOS and Windows commercial logo requirements mandate the presence = of H.264 encode and decode anyhow. No device will be missing H.264 ... al= l Android devices have H.264 and VP8 (both). 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support= at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO, this implies that browsers will be able to talk to each other, but some= other entities will not .. unless they have a browser on board. For comme= rcial success, browsers must tap into native hardware codecs. a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: #3 is a better option 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: This forces a hodge-podge of transcoding and that won't work. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: H.261 is obsolete, cannot handle higher resolutions and contributes to the = data tsunami in our networks. That is exactly the reason we're moving to = H.265 and VP9 ... to reduce bandwidth, increase quality ... let's not go ba= ckwards. 7. There is no MTI video codec . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: The market will fragment into camps and nobody wins. WebRTC becomes a pass= ing "flash in the pan" because systems don't work with each other. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at leas= t one of H.264 and VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. H.261 must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmissi= on bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. 9. All entities MUST support Theora . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. Rare codec - not widely available in hardware - and obsolete tec= hnology (same argument against H.261 above) 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. H.261 must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmissi= on bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. Transcoding issues. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. H.263 must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmissi= on bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. Transcoding issues. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: So complex that this will be hard to explain ... and doesn't solve the tran= scoding issue 13. All entities MUST support H.263 . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. H.263 must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmissi= on bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. Theora must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmiss= ion bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. Transcoding issues. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. Theora must be categorically avoided because it wastes transmiss= ion bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. Transcoding issues. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG . Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO a. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize the= m: Wasteful. Motion JPEG must be categorically avoided because it wastes tran= smission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality. Transcoding issues. H.264 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ VP8 is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 = (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec = H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 Thanks, The Chairs --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213AD5FMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Here is my straw below̷= 0;

     

    Chris Cavigioli

    Intel Corp, Marketing &= ; Product Planning, Graphics/Multimedia, Mobile and Communications Group (M= CG)

    +1 (415) 254-4545 mobi= le

    +1 (408) 653-8348 desk=

    +1 (408) 884-2400 fax<= /span>

    This e-mail may contain confi= dential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(= s).  Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delet= e all copies.

     

     

    From: rtcweb [= mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie
    Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:25 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Richard Barnes; Magnus Weste= rlund; Cullen Jennings
    Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives<= /span>

     

    *SNIP*

    1.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.264

    a.   = ; Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO, incomplete.  This is necessary, but not suffic= ient.

    b.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    One codec isn’t enough

     

    2.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port VP8

    .  &nbs= p;   Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:<= /span>

    NO, incomplete.  This is necessary, but not suffic= ient.

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    One codec isn’t enough

     

    3.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port both H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    YES, there is no= commercially-viable alternative.  Transcoding must be avoided at all costs if we intend t= o provide a good end-user experience.

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Given the passion behind each camp, we must deploy both= .

    Android, iOS and Windows commercial logo requirements m= andate the presence of H.264 encode and decode anyhow.   No device will be missing H.264 … all Android devices have H.26= 4 and VP8 (both).

     

    4.   = ; Browsers MUST support= both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO, this implies that browsers will be able to talk to = each other, but some other entities will not .. unless they have a browser on board.  For commercial success, browsers must tap i= nto native hardware codecs.

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    #3 is a better option

     

    5.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port at least one of H.264 and VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO.

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    This forces a hodge-podge of transcoding and that won&#= 8217;t work.

     

    6.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    H.261 is obsolete, cannot handle higher resolutions and= contributes to the data tsunami in our networks.   That is exactly the reason we’re moving to H.265 and VP9 … to reduc= e bandwidth, increase quality … let’s not go backwards.

     

    7.   = ; There is no MTI video= codec

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    The market will fragment into camps and nobody wins.&nb= sp; WebRTC becomes a passing “flash in the pan” because systems don’t work with each other.

     

    8.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8=

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  H.261 must be categorically avoided bec= ause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.

     

    9.   = ; All entities MUST sup= port Theora

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  Rare codec – not widely available= in hardware – and obsolete technology (same argument against H.261 above)

     

    10.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  H.261 must be categorically avoided bec= ause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.  Transcoding issues.

     

    11.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}<= o:p>

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  H.263 must be categorically avoided bec= ause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.  Transcoding issues.

     

    12.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at = least one of H.264 or VP8

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    So complex that this will be hard to explain … an= d doesn’t solve the transcoding issue

    13.  All entities MUST sup= port H.263

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  H.263 must be categorically avoided bec= ause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.

     

    14.  All entities MUST imp= lement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  Theora must be categorically avoided be= cause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.  Transcoding issues.

     

    15.  All entities MUST sup= port decoding using Theora.

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  Theora must be categorically avoided be= cause it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.  Transcoding issues.

     

    16.  All entities MUST sup= port Motion JPEG

    .   =    Are you in favor of t= his option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    NO

    a.   = ; Do you have any objec= tions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Wasteful.  Motion JPEG must be categorically avoid= ed because it wastes transmission bandwidth to communicate mediocre quality.  Transcoding issues.

     

    H.264 = is a reference to the proposal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/

     

    VP8 is= a reference to the propo= sal in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/

     

    Theora= is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)

     

    H.263 = is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 = (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-R= EC-H.263/)

     

    H.261 = is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587

     

    Motion= JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435

     

    Thanks= ,

     

    The Ch= airs

     

    --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238213AD5FMSMSX110amrcor_-- From espeberg@cisco.com Mon Jan 13 04:09:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7FE1AE10F for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:09:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6-mtDlutZkeB for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A3E1ADF68 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:09:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2716; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389614954; x=1390824554; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=PPAEs/n6mnYqp5FAwLneQHKfXNqXc/E38EKtxGRSI4w=; b=IPs/XMDqj+G5+aEHAgPJcc/ancZM1uBABeCpW6808oEwEhoS+U7jaZSY S+lx5Ej23C6TbF6WLldAwWarogRg5M2UonOO6fGjMPJFjqv0YmeEDcImh z7yeSetDUy/kAqZ67GXfZqvPgeVe9IaTJxET6CipFnyszS+WbJYRb7HJc Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFABjX01KtJXG9/2dsb2JhbABagws4VrkcT4EPFnSCJQEBAQICAQEBNzEDFwQCAQgRBAEBAQoUCQcnCxQJCAIEARIIh3wNxHAXjlY4BoMegRMEmUeQZYMtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,652,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="12429818" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 12:09:14 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com [173.37.183.89]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0DC9Ekn012802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:09:14 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([169.254.1.68]) by xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([173.37.183.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:09:13 -0600 From: "Espen Berger (espeberg)" To: Ron , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Transcoding Thread-Index: AQHPD9jDYNMpeFfzQkOXr3v53ppR25qB+uQAgACEcYD//9h6kA== Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:09:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Accept-Language: nb-NO, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.147.113.229] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:09:27 -0000 Comments on transcoding based on testing in lab and research.=20 * In side by side comparison, single encode/decode and encode/transcode/de= code we can see that the untranscoded video stream can be 20-35% lower bitr= ate and give the same visual quality. The tests are performed in a video c= all between two endpoints at 1 -2 mb/s bitrate, both setups used the same 7= 20p60 HDMI video source. For this test we used high quality cameras, I have= not tried the same setup with low cost cameras at lower resolution, or low= er bitrate. * Lip-sync should be within 50 ms, this is the conclusion from a Norwegian = based ph.d student and also recommendation from EBU. (http://tech.ebu.ch/d= ocs/r/r037.pdf)=20 * Advanced media resilience techniques like LTRF, disposable frames and mor= e are hard to map between different video codecs, so transcoding will likel= y reduce robustness for packet loss.=20 * Transcoding adds delay, between 60 - 200 ms (depending on packet loss an= d implementation). This has an impact since camera to screen latency should= be below 300 ms to get a smooth conversation between to participants in a = video call. Test on people shows that glass to glass latency should be belo= w 330 ms, to avoid latency to be noticed. =20 All in all we should avoid transcoding for video conferencing use cases to = get to a good user experience.=20 Youtube and other streaming services has the benefit of reliable transport = (HTTP) and also latency requirements in the range of seconds and not millis= econds. The differences in requirements make it difficult to compare strea= ming with requirements for low latency video conferencing. =20 Cheers=20 -Espen=20 -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Sent: 13. januar 2014 06:07 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 01:12:30PM -0800, cb.list6 wrote: >=20 > I am not a codec expert. >=20 > But, it is worth noting that transcoding, to the best of my knowledge,=20 > substantially reduces quality. Any compression creates an approximation. > Transcoding is an approximation of an approximation, which leads to=20 > bad quality. So it is expensive, complex, and poor quality. That must be why youtube transcodes *everything* uploaded to it. Clearly they want to provide an expensive, complex, poor quality service th= at nobody will ever use. I'm glad the best of your knowledge has cleared that mystery up for us. Crosseyed and painless, Ron _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ron@debian.org Mon Jan 13 04:17:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4451AE037 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:17:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0pwTTftcFOC for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E191ADF68 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 22:47:10 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5964F8F3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:47:09 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id VLy2u3pJqjLe for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:47:08 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A99E74F902; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:47:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:47:08 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:17:24 -0000 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:02:54AM +0000, Cavigioli, Chris wrote: > > transcoding introduces speech frame buffer delays that are irreducible. Why would transcoding a separate video stream introduce speech delays? I fear your streams of consciousness may have crossed here :) > or better ... use OFFER/ANSWER to negotiate transcoder-free operation so > that each session will narrow-down to a common codec for all participants > from a constrained list of mandatory codecs. The idea of *a* mandatory codec is that offer/answer will never fail though it may well be able to select something even better sometimes. You seem to be suggesting that we make every possible codec mandatory and then introduce a negotiation system to try and find one from that set that people actually did implement? Inconceivable? Ron From ron@debian.org Mon Jan 13 04:33:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4D31AE15A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:33:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hMseJMlDc32R for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713751AE156 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 23:03:38 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D2E4F8F3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:03:38 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id b2gantq2VS53 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:03:38 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B39E4F902; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:03:38 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:03:38 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113123338.GN3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:33:51 -0000 Hi Espen, On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:09:13PM +0000, Espen Berger (espeberg) wrote: > Comments on transcoding based on testing in lab and research. Thanks for contributing those here. > All in all we should avoid transcoding for video conferencing use cases > to get to a good user experience. I don't think that anybody is arguing that avoiding it where possible is a Bad Thing. That's why there's a negotiation scheme. Just that doing it where it can't be avoided for whatever reason is hardly an end-of-the-world scenario as some people seem to want to paint it. There are even some cases where doing it would give you a *better* experience, such as where there is a bandwidth bottleneck somewhere in the transmission path to one or more participants. Cheers, Ron From karl.stahl@intertex.se Mon Jan 13 04:47:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7891AE134 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:47:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.1 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8smkeqv3-Vt for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD721AE06C for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 04:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401131346545801; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:46:54 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Ron'" , References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:46:52 +0100 Message-ID: <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8QWWiYJbhCuIDRRPSx2Dg+q4ZVcAAA0WcQ Content-Language: sv Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:47:11 -0000 > Why would transcoding a separate video stream introduce speech delays? --- Real life: That is exactly why I said:=20 " Chrome with VP8 on old laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even = usable. " CPU load shows 60-100% usage, and you now and then see a good video, BUT AUDIO is more than 5s, FIVE SECONDS DELAY! Turning off video, Opus audio is perfect (200 ms delay or so). Transcoding these advanced Videocodecs is a very poor option... Simply = too heavy! /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Ron Skickat: den 13 januari 2014 13:17 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:02:54AM +0000, Cavigioli, Chris wrote: > > transcoding introduces speech frame buffer delays that are = irreducible. Why would transcoding a separate video stream introduce speech delays? I fear your streams of consciousness may have crossed here :) > or better ... use OFFER/ANSWER to negotiate transcoder-free operation=20 > so that each session will narrow-down to a common codec for all=20 > participants from a constrained list of mandatory codecs. The idea of *a* mandatory codec is that offer/answer will never fail = though it may well be able to select something even better sometimes. You seem to be suggesting that we make every possible codec mandatory = and then introduce a negotiation system to try and find one from that set = that people actually did implement? Inconceivable? Ron _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ron@debian.org Mon Jan 13 05:19:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA98E1AE15A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:19:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7sppFCCaxVX for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B241ADFA2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 23:48:46 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835B84F8F3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:48:45 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 5TF3fjAffoI0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:48:36 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AF3284F903; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:48:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:48:36 +1030 From: 'Ron' To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113131836.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:19:00 -0000 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 01:46:52PM +0100, Karl Stahl wrote: > > Why would transcoding a separate video stream introduce speech delays? > > --- Real life: That is exactly why I said: > " Chrome with VP8 on old laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. > " > > CPU load shows 60-100% usage, and you now and then see a good video, BUT > AUDIO is more than 5s, FIVE SECONDS DELAY! > > Turning off video, Opus audio is perfect (200 ms delay or so). > > Transcoding these advanced Videocodecs is a very poor option... Simply too > heavy! It's not quite clear to me what you are actually arguing here, but you realise that VP8+Opus in Chrome is ... not transcoding? Which would seem to leave the only valid part of your statement as just: "these advanced Videocodecs is a very poor option... Simply too heavy!" Perhaps you would be interested in Hervé's benchmarks of H.261 then? Unless you subscribe to the opinion some people have expressed that you just don't deserve video on that device and would be better off without any option for it at all? Ron From holger.debelts@telekom.de Mon Jan 13 05:25:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A245F1ADFA2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:25:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.788 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.788 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qpIbUPB-g7yd for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail23.telekom.de (tcmail23.telekom.de [80.149.113.243]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFAA1AE164 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from he111631.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.23]) by tcmail21.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 13 Jan 2014 14:25:38 +0100 Received: from HE111644.EMEA1.CDS.T-INTERNAL.COM ([10.134.93.13]) by HE111631.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:25:38 +0100 From: To: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:25:37 +0100 Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: Ac8MD5VVAm7j5BDOQBG/ljOLxvXi5AEUbRFQ Message-ID: References: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140108011831.GA18453@verdi> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:25:53 -0000 Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 > ... Provide your poll input by replying to this email to the WG=20 > mailing list. The poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014= ... 1. All entities MUST support H.264 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =20 NO =20 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : =20 No new arguments. Basically royalties with unclear business outlook for lic= enses buyers. =20 2. All entities MUST support VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =20 NO =20 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : As VP9 is approaching, I see this as a kind of backward looking sspecificat= ion.=20 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =20 NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Does not make any sense as previously stated by many others. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =20 NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : It is already happening in major browsers, so why adding this here? 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =20 NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See 1b/2b. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : User experience not state of the art. Backward looking technology. 7. There is no MTI video codec a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : As it is not a technical problem, a technical body will not be able to solv= e the problem. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least= one of H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See 6b. 9. All entities MUST support Theora a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Also no clear future outlook regarding legal issues. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Does not ensure interoperability. See 1b/2b/6b. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See 10 b. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO =20 b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Does not solve the issues mentioned above. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See 1b and old technology. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See above. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : See 9b. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them= : Historic. From tim@phonefromhere.com Mon Jan 13 05:49:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5698B1AE114 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:49:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AaOrXboc_ucX for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D87D1ADFA7 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 38860 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2014 13:48:59 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 9139 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 13 Jan 2014 13:48:59 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3294C18A03A8; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:48:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E903F18A028A; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:48:58 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67156709-AEE4-4A35-B03C-5F13C30A1C3F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:48:57 +0000 Message-Id: References: <52D0325E.5080305@tele.no> To: Svein Yngvar Willassen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org >> rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] on Svein Yngvar Willassen 's choices was- Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:49:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67156709-AEE4-4A35-B03C-5F13C30A1C3F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 11 Jan 2014, at 18:44, Svein Yngvar Willassen = wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Tim Panton = wrote: >=20 > On 10 Jan 2014, at 20:51, Svein Yngvar Willassen = wrote: >=20 > > > > =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities = MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > =95 Are you in favor of this option = [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No > > =95 Do you have any objections to this option, if so = please summarize them: Not always having a common codec requires = transcoding. This option will create a barrier for extending web based = services to mobile devices. >=20 > I'm not sure I understand how you see transcoding happening. > The only occurrence I can see is where one non-browser app e.g. = 'facebook for ios' implements only h264 and a different > non-browser app e.g. 'linkedin for android' implements only VP8 AND = users of these two apps choose to attempt to call each other. >=20 > I'd humbly suggest that the codec transcoding would be the least of = their problems, it is unlikely that 2 single purpose apps > will be expected to interop. It isn't even clear that it is desirable. > That's kinda the point of the 'browser' distinction - it isn't about = laptop vs mobile it is > multi purpose vs single purpose. or Generic vs Dedicated. >=20 > Is all forms of browsing on all kinds of devices included in the term = "Browsers", including WebViews embedded in other applications? =20 >=20 It depends on the intent of the application. If it is using a webview as = a way to render a UI to a fixed application, no,it isn't a browser. If it is using the webview as a way of communicating with an open ended = number of different types of endpoint, then it is a browser. (per my definition). > However, I'm not sure I would change my position should the answer to = the above questions be yes. There may be other entities that are not = browsers that should be interoperable with each other. Two different = native video conferencing solutions could for example claim to be WebRTC = compliant without being interoperable with each other.=20 Agreed, that's why the open ended number of different types of endpoint = test is important. >=20 > -- > Svein Willassen, ph.d. > https://appear.in > =20 --Apple-Mail=_67156709-AEE4-4A35-B03C-5F13C30A1C3F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
    On 11 Jan 2014, at 18:44, Svein Yngvar = Willassen <svein@appear.in> = wrote:

    On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:

    On 10 Jan 2014, at 20:51, Svein Yngvar Willassen <svein@appear.in> = wrote:

    >
    >       =95 Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, = other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8
    >               =95 Are you in = favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No
    >               =95 Do you have = any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:  Not = always having a common codec requires transcoding. This option will = create a barrier for extending web based services to mobile devices.

    I'm not sure I understand how you see transcoding happening.
    The only occurrence I can see is where one non-browser app e.g. = 'facebook for ios' implements only h264 and a different
    non-browser app e.g. 'linkedin for android' implements only VP8 AND = users of these two apps choose to attempt to call each other.

    I'd humbly suggest that the codec transcoding would be the least of = their problems, it is unlikely that 2 single purpose apps
    will be expected to interop. It isn't even clear that it is = desirable.
    That's kinda the point of the 'browser' distinction - it isn't about = laptop vs mobile it is
    multi purpose vs single purpose. or Generic vs = Dedicated.

    Is all forms of browsing = on all kinds of devices included in the term "Browsers", including = WebViews embedded in other applications?  


    It depends = on the intent of the application. If it is using a webview as a way to = render a UI to a fixed application, no,it isn't a browser.
    If = it is using the webview as  a way of communicating with an open = ended number of different types of endpoint, then it is a = browser.
    (per my definition).

    However, I'm not sure I would change my = position should the answer to the above questions be yes. There may be = other entities that are not browsers that should be interoperable with = each other. Two different native video conferencing solutions could for = example claim to be WebRTC compliant without being interoperable with = each = other. 

    Agree= d, that's why the open ended number of different types of endpoint test = is important.


    --
    Svein Willassen, ph.d.
     

    = --Apple-Mail=_67156709-AEE4-4A35-B03C-5F13C30A1C3F-- From mcfrost@gmail.com Mon Jan 13 05:55:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4731AE174 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ucq8g20aHeU for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x232.google.com (mail-ve0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B333A1AE15B for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f178.google.com with SMTP id oz11so510748veb.9 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3hdMTbDhWzGx7rHFCTxbE+BG1GopZffQ2nP7yPHrXPM=; b=0YyYr84uIVrZdiiNbhI9iLRHpZqXaoYNfhhmVknYCjcx0m5I8mIzVLEsm6xLwON0OQ xW7uGYTjH9lT4/15eIJCq8VBp9PUkSe1GiQL59/1r0hI3f+EX7VTlfbw7SdsBscXQ12a 8nQ9DboZr6DbtjVNjuQCbuptKr8RTHStEAH1LwubXRpiR6Ppagt77jq+MbbvPMSpON4p Gw3r6ABXy4cZFo4c/yl4jk/6LuglCx12fMxGwdhsnWdyMJ/VuHSoMelVLp7rz+BKn4uK 25dOieiPZdjjaIP5U5GLLhdE1WFz7Ic2cWqEFTjkpx5fH+na8LJ9ISel4+MfotqrCjZP 3Kdw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.37.67 with SMTP id w3mr4435489vej.22.1389621325564; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.100.133 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:55:25 -0800 Message-ID: From: matt frost To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a0d427b924904efda6d01 Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:55:42 -0000 --089e013a0d427b924904efda6d01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just re-posting (on January 13) after having it pointed out to me that the Subject line of my previous message did not make for easy discovery of my post. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: matt frost Date: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 7:00 PM Subject: Re: rtcweb Digest, Vol 34, Issue 21 To: rtcweb@ietf.org My responses to the straw poll below: 1. All entities MUST support H.264 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 2. All entities MUST support VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 6. All entities MUST support H.261 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 7. There is no MTI video codec 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 9. All entities MUST support Theora 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 13. All entities MUST support H.263: 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG 1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO 2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: From: Ted Hardie > To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo < > Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Richard Barnes , Magnus > Westerlund , Cullen Jennings < > fluffy@cisco.com> > Cc: > Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:24:35 -0800 > Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives > > Dear WG, > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t read the =93Next Steps = in > Video Codec Selection Process=94 ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html )then > please do that before you continue to read. > > The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you have, > if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use the > information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put as a > single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an opinio= n > on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide your poll > input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll will run > until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed t= o > the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > The first question is =93Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indicate that yo= u: > Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No =3D I really = don=92t > favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable =3D I can live with t= his > option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > The second question is =93Do you have any objections to this option, if s= o > please explain it:=94 If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it = with > a =93Yes=94. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of th= e > objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no objectio= n, > leave that question blank. > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the W= G > chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone=92s input in this thread= ! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to sen= d > an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support > at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least > one of H.264 and VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST > support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize > them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, 201= 1 > (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T re= c > H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > Thanks, > > The Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --089e013a0d427b924904efda6d01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Just re-posting (on January 13) after having it pointed ou= t to me that the Subject line of my previous message did not make for easy = discovery of my post.

    ---------- Forwarde= d message ----------
    From: matt frost <mcfrost@gmail.com>
    Date= : Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 7:00 PM
    Subject: Re: rtcweb Digest, Vol 34, Issue= 21
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org


    My r= esponses to the straw poll below:
    =A0

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. A= re you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

      2. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=

    2. All entities MUST support VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support = at least one of H.264 and VP8=A0

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    6. All entities MUST support H.261

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    7. There is no MTI video codec

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: =A0NO<= /p>

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least= one of H.264 and VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    9. All entities MUST support Theora

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}=

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}=

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    13. All entities MUST support H.263:

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:

    16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

      1. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

        =

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them:


    From:=A0Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
    To:=A0"rtcweb@iet= f.org" <rt= cweb@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>= ;, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@eri= csson.com>, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
    Cc:=A0
    Date:=A0Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:24:35 -0800
    Subject:=A0[rtcweb] Str= aw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives

    Dear WG,


    This is the email announcing the straw poll a= cross the video codec alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven=92t rea= d the =93Next Steps in Video Codec Selection Process=94 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/m= sg10448.html )then please do that = before you continue to read.


    The straw poll=92s purpose is to make it clea= r to the WG which of the alternatives that are favored or disfavored and wh= at objections you have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG ch= airs will use the information from this straw poll to identify an alternati= ve to put as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that = has an opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide= your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The poll= will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014.


    As can be seen below, the poll lists the alte= rnative that have proposed to the WG. For each alternative two questions ar= e listed.


    The first question is =93Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:=94. These three levels allow you to indica= te that you: Yes=3D I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = =3D I really don=92t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = =3D I can live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. = =A0


    The second question is =93Do you have any obj= ections to this option, if so please explain it:=94 If you have any objecti= on at a minimum indicate it with a =93Yes=94. =A0=A0Please also add a short= (1-sentence) summary of each of the objections you believe applies. =A0(If= you wish to provide a longer explanation, please do so in a separate threa= d). =A0If you have no objection, leave that question blank.


    Please provide input on as many of the altern= atives as you like and feel comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more we= ll informed decision the WG chairs can take when identifying the option to = be brought forward for consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave b= lank, will simply be considered as one without any input from you. =A0


    WG participants, please do not comment on any= one=92s input in this thread! If you want to comment, then create a separat= e thread and change the subject line to something else. Otherwise you are m= aking life for the chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw= poll. =A0


    If discussion causes you to update your posit= ion, please feel free to send an update via email on the straw poll thread = prior to the closing date.



    =

    1. = All entities MUST support H.264

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    2. = All entities MUST support VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    3. = All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /span>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    4. = Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, oth= er entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    5. = All entities MUST support at least one of H.2= 64 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    6. = All entities MUST support H.261

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    7. = There is no MTI video codec

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    8. = All entities MUST support H.261 and all entit= ies MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    9. = All entities MUST support Theora

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    10. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.261}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    11. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, H.263}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    12. = All entities MUST support decoding using both= H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP= 8

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    13. = All entities MUST support H.263

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    14. = All entities MUST implement at least two of {= VP8, H.264, Theora}

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    15. = All entities MUST support decoding using Theo= ra.

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:

    16. = All entities MUST support Motion JPEG<= /p>

      1. = Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accep= table]:

      2. = Do you have any objections to this option, if= so please summarize them:



    H.264 is a reference to the proposal in h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/


    VP8 is a reference to the proposa= l in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/


    Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Spec= ification from March 16, 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/t= heora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf)


    H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 de= fined in annex X of ITU-T rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/)=


    H.261 is a reference to http://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc4587


    Motion JPEG is a reference to http:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435



    =

    Thanks,


    The Chairs



    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    --089e013a0d427b924904efda6d01-- From karl.stahl@intertex.se Mon Jan 13 06:03:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0691AE18D for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:03:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3iq83gpoGYBq for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F5E1AE17D for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401131502469354; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:02:46 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Ron'" , References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <20140113131836.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140113131836.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:02:44 +0100 Message-ID: <08e301cf1068$21dae2f0$6590a8d0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8QYgQuHOy9PsDHT32e8SbNk7z13QABHSmg Content-Language: sv Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:03:06 -0000 I'm just informing that transcoding VP8-H.264 is not anything that = should be considered doing in software (and this huge CPU eating was only for half = - the VP8 side). Such transcoding would (and consider also doing 1000s in a networks = gateway) require very powerful hardware support for both H.264 and VP8.=20 On this list, hardware support for H.264 in devices has been discussed = and requested API's for. We won't see such support also for VP8 just for the idea of Transcoding. I am arguing that we should not even consider any selection that = requires VP8 <-> H.264 transcoding. (Not liking the H.261 is just because it not good enough quality to be = an interesting option. That was not in this argumentation.) /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r 'Ron' Skickat: den 13 januari 2014 14:19 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 01:46:52PM +0100, Karl Stahl wrote: > > Why would transcoding a separate video stream introduce speech = delays? >=20 > --- Real life: That is exactly why I said:=20 > " Chrome with VP8 on old laptops with 1 core 1.5 Ghz x86 is not even usable. > " >=20 > CPU load shows 60-100% usage, and you now and then see a good video,=20 > BUT AUDIO is more than 5s, FIVE SECONDS DELAY! >=20 > Turning off video, Opus audio is perfect (200 ms delay or so). >=20 > Transcoding these advanced Videocodecs is a very poor option... Simply = > too heavy! It's not quite clear to me what you are actually arguing here, but you realise that VP8+Opus in Chrome is ... not transcoding? Which would seem to leave the only valid part of your statement as just: "these advanced Videocodecs is a very poor option... Simply too heavy!" Perhaps you would be interested in Herv=E9's benchmarks of H.261 then? Unless you subscribe to the opinion some people have expressed that you = just don't deserve video on that device and would be better off without any option for it at all? Ron _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From jlaurens@cisco.com Mon Jan 13 06:37:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7E61AE15A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6TYYzbArVGi2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5157B1AE09C for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:37:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10290; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389623860; x=1390833460; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=YAo9Pw0TKCPvSRJEbb2bIRUXmkgJARDaXYu4pKbHWNs=; b=Z8vDnLYJBa02gh21ix11L4bifja8Rn/H++PfkWGXI7t6lT+B9niDntTe 0MSyocFMQs/hU+2djIncPZoim6H5QTlBFIdrIc5Eo9uD1isxC9Jc6nq4Q XDLOG9f6gHm+eQJL+fF7t1RH0NPiLYjh8sC+/yS/+KwDDZoPq5HX5tG+Y c=; X-Files: smime.p7s : 4459 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiAFAP3501KtJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABagwuBDrltgREWdIImAQEEgQkCAU4CMCUCBCGHdsUZF48OgySBEwSQM4ExhjOSFYMtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,653,1384300800"; d="p7s'?scan'208";a="297004477" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2014 14:37:33 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com [173.37.183.85]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0DEbXDi018855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:37:33 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.72]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:37:32 -0600 From: "Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-Index: AQHPEGz+JuF5FZxy4UqL2lqU7L715g== Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.230.33] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_626F67E8-C52D-40DC-992B-D628AEA9FC75"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:37:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_626F67E8-C52D-40DC-992B-D628AEA9FC75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 My $0.02. I believe for browsers, "the market" will help push some of = this along. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not solve interoperability to existing video systems, which was the = purpose of SDP manipulation in the first place. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: If IPR issues arise for either codec, this would have to be revisited. = 'Cost' for non-browsers to impliment is an issue. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at = least one of H.264 and VP8=20 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: If IPR issues arise for either codec for browser vendors, this would = have to be revisited. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not solve for interop, my primary source of issue. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not solve for interop, my primary source of issue. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least = one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: High barrier to entry and substandard 'fallback' All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not solve for interop, my primary source of issue. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACCEPTABLE Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST = support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not solve for interop to existing 264 systems, my primary source of = issue. All entities MUST support H.263: Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: ACEPTABLE Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:= --Apple-Mail=_626F67E8-C52D-40DC-992B-D628AEA9FC75 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINSTCCBkIw ggUqoAMCAQICEDirAC//rpa3Vv85Wvtd5xswDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgcoxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVT MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azE6MDgGA1UECxMxKGMpIDE5OTkgVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4gLSBGb3IgYXV0aG9yaXplZCB1c2Ug b25seTFFMEMGA1UEAxM8VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0 aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eSAtIEczMB4XDTExMDkwMTAwMDAwMFoXDTIxMDgzMTIzNTk1OVowgaYxCzAJ 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No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ET3AjjiGQ5Cm for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4811ADF53 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 14 Jan 2014 01:12:50 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704B54F8F3 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:12:48 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XofhVeBVgORQ for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:12:47 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E1F564F902; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:12:47 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:12:47 +1030 From: 'Ron' To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113144247.GP3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <20140113131836.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08e301cf1068$21dae2f0$6590a8d0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <08e301cf1068$21dae2f0$6590a8d0$@stahl@intertex.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:43:06 -0000 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 03:02:44PM +0100, Karl Stahl wrote: > On this list, hardware support for H.264 in devices has been discussed and > requested API's for. We won't see such support also for VP8 just for the > idea of Transcoding. Hardware support for VP8 already exists today. People who own H.264 patents just don't like to talk about it very much. > I am arguing that we should not even consider any selection that requires > VP8 <-> H.264 transcoding. Then it seems odd that you would rank as acceptable: All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Since that option essentially guarantees such transcoding would be needed for interop between some devices. > (Not liking the H.261 is just because it not good enough quality to be an > interesting option. That was not in this argumentation.) Ah, then maybe you'd instead be interested in the quality metrics that Hervé posted instead. Or the examples that Maik and others put up. Or maybe someone could set up a blind test that all the people who claimed "oh noes teh bad" could take for themselves. I suspect it would be quite amusing to see some hard numbers on how many might actually pick the difference on a single pass viewing. Ron From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jan 13 06:48:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF281AE1AA for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LGYQ8uq8bi40 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1487B1AE196 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 06:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0DElsUX002158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:47:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0DElrZL012448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:47:54 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:47:53 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPDiKSou+qPLVnKEOpCgeh9soJkJp+K5zg Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:47:53 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:48:11 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. It is not about preserving our existing equipment. It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we= want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the= entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort = to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has = a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which ca= n be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call p= ath using that delay portion. Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy = systems than there are using RTCWEB. Keith ________________________________ From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC t= o interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only= ? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo= ok backwards and not forwards. I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn= ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with= a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit= surprised that your are part of them. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either: * Use H.261, or * Transcode, or * Drop Video By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to ei= ther transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as = compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. Yo= u don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= . Gili --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Legacy interoperability is import= ant to some of us.
     
    It is not about preserving our ex= isting equipment.
     
    It is about the fact the communic= ation involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communicati= on between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transc= oding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost th= at someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be cate= red for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
     
    Currently there are a considerabl= e number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCW= EB.
     
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to re=
strict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol=
d features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo=
ok backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive wa=
y forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn=
ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with=
 a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" featur=
es, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtc=
web/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to= either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple = as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64= and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because= it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= .

    Gili
    --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_-- From karl.stahl@intertex.se Mon Jan 13 07:19:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5761AE1F4 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:19:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mADtHBtzGDXU for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC35B1AE1EE for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401131618530348; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:18:53 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Ron'" , References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113121708.GM3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08c001cf105d$88ac7440$9a055cc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <20140113131836.GO3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <08e301cf1068$21dae2f0$6590a8d0$@stahl@intertex.se> <20140113144247.GP3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140113144247.GP3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:18:51 +0100 Message-ID: <091c01cf1072$c425ee10$4c71ca30$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8QbcRt5YsK7qQlRxOTOiRE2GfbMgAA8+xA Content-Language: sv Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:19:10 -0000 > Then it seems odd that you would rank as acceptable: > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > Since that option essentially guarantees such transcoding would be = needed for interop between some devices. My Acceptable to that question had: b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: * Only if codec slots also are mandated: =93MUST=94* That of course indicated that the non-supported codec, would be = supported by downloadable one like Cisco's H.264 offering, THUS NO TRANSCODING = REQUIRED /Karl PS Just informing/warning about non workable solutions.... -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r 'Ron' Skickat: den 13 januari 2014 15:43 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 03:02:44PM +0100, Karl Stahl wrote: > On this list, hardware support for H.264 in devices has been discussed = > and requested API's for. We won't see such support also for VP8 just=20 > for the idea of Transcoding. Hardware support for VP8 already exists today. People who own H.264 = patents just don't like to talk about it very much. > I am arguing that we should not even consider any selection that=20 > requires > VP8 <-> H.264 transcoding. Then it seems odd that you would rank as acceptable: All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Since that option essentially guarantees such transcoding would be = needed for interop between some devices. > (Not liking the H.261 is just because it not good enough quality to be = > an interesting option. That was not in this argumentation.) Ah, then maybe you'd instead be interested in the quality metrics that = Herv=E9 posted instead. Or the examples that Maik and others put up. Or maybe someone could set up a blind test that all the people who = claimed "oh noes teh bad" could take for themselves. I suspect it would be = quite amusing to see some hard numbers on how many might actually pick the difference on a single pass viewing. Ron _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ode@tid.es Mon Jan 13 07:32:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF001ADF86 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:32:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bqzj050RsrVo for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1506E1ADF78 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MZC00KMUJ56H1@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:31:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 8B.4F.02810.BE604D25; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:31:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MZC00KN2J56H1@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:31:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.204]) by EX10-HTCAS6-MAD.hi.inet ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:31:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:31:54 +0000 From: OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_zGz2QqEwmPl1FV6kiheGFA)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: ca-ES, es-ES, en-US Thread-topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives Thread-index: AQHO9QOWyBPUqcq1T0+HUqkJBeRqwZqCaD2A user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.6.130613 X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7f9b8e000000afa-ba-52d406ebd920 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFe9nqPua7UqQwas56hZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4/Tcl4wFW98yVkxqe8XSwLjlPGMXIyeHhICJRM+LPWwQtpjE hXvrgWwuDiGBbYwSU37NZ4JwfjJKdM76C5WZyShx5e5MoHYODhYBVYk1nTog3WwC6hI3Ln5j AQkLC9hIfLgjABLmFAiWmPtiNivEAgWJP+ces4DYIkDllx9eYAexmQVUJH52XWUGsXmB4vNX /WaFsAUlfky+BzaSWcBT4tw3HohycYnm1ptgYxiBWn/dmskOMdJWYvXXh1C2kcSmYzPBxogK 6El0z1oOdYKAxJI955khbFGJl4//sU5gFJuFZNsshG2zkGyDsA0k3p+bzwxha0ssW/gaytaX 2PjlLCNEq5nE4d11yEoWMHKsYhQrTirKTM8oyU3MzEk3MNLLyNTLzEst2cQIicXMHYzLd6oc YhTgYFTi4T3BeCVIiDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkghv1c/LQUK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYmTg4pRoY OW1Nw/OCohSzNq9k35oxW1K+4kve3NLddW9yqlcqNWgHfBFbdvmU/D/h5Y2N34w6HC82MTXm MR++MMdgi5mP5Ayv3iKvIDkfE7/+xpOSR/w1Uxa/5WKw+xa6yMtgp1/V9E0TfMJCGyx/fO4r Pz4lk3+y2XVGjysaBeXbl1SK3kgQ1koX1VdiKc5INNRiLipOBABcQ3ldowIAAA== Cc: Oscar Divorra Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:32:23 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_zGz2QqEwmPl1FV6kiheGFA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Please, find in the following my comments concerning this straw poll around= video codec alternatives. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No (for the moment,= could change =96see below-) B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While probably, by maturity, technical quality, presence and deployment in = the market, and legacy interoperability, H.264 could be the preferred MTI, = its current IPR situation doesn=92t seem right for adoption by the start-up= environment. Hence, IPR licensing model should be addressed in order to be= able to go with it as MTI. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While it is somehow de-facto deployed, and already enabling current work in= WebRTC (free of charge), its IPR situation, basically backed by Google, do= esn=92t seem completely cristal clear. Also, the predominant video codec in= the general video market is H.264 and many applications are enabled with t= his last. By picking VP8 for WebRTC we can expect that at some point transc= oding will be necessary to give VP8 streams interoperability with existing = systems as well as in use cases like Archiving, it may be necessary transco= ding to H.264 to give proper versatility to recorded video data. Hw support= is still far from ideal. 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Considering #1 and #2 this would make things worse by adding costs to codec= s support and service developments. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at= least one of H.264 and VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: As an exception to above, in the situation where #1 concerns where solved, = and it was desired migration from #2 to #1, this case would be acceptable a= s a transitory situation. Also, if HW support for #2 does not really improv= e in non browser entities, this could help 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Problems with interoperability. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Very old technology. A significant step-back wrt VP8/H.264, and probably no= t practical for a successful WebRTC. It is probably similar to no MTI, forc= ing industry to integrate some other codec, without the consensus of an MTI= , leading to Interoperability problems. 7. There is no MTI video codec A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Problems with interoperability. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least o= ne of H.264 and VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: #5 and #6 issues together. 9. All entities MUST support Theora A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #6. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #3 combined with #6. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #3. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST s= upport encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #3. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Not better than #1 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #6. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Similar to #6 jointly with #7. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Possible quality vs bitrate seems far from the requirements for RTC. Best, =D2scar ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx --Boundary_(ID_zGz2QqEwmPl1FV6kiheGFA) Content-id: <652ED2B47B7C474AB8226B35B9F19B3F@hi.inet> Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,

    Please, find in the following my comments concerning thi= s straw poll around video codec alternatives.

    1. All entities MUST su= pport H.264

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No (for the moment, could change =96see below-)

    B. Do you have any objections to th= is option, if so please summarize them:

    While probably, by maturity, technical quality, presence= and deployment in the market, and legacy interoperability, H.264 could be = the preferred MTI, its current IPR situation doesn=92t seem right for adoption by the start-up environment. Hence, IPR = licensing model should be addressed in order to be able to go with it as MT= I. 

    2. All entities MUST support V= P8

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    B. Do you have any objections to th= is option, if so please summarize them:
    While it is somehow de-facto deployed, and already enabl= ing current work in WebRTC (free of charge), its IPR situation, basica= lly backed by Google, doesn=92t seem completely cristal clear. Also, the predominant video codec in the general video mark= et is H.264 and many applications are enabled with this last. By picking VP= 8 for WebRTC we can expect that at some point transcoding will be necessary= to give VP8 streams interoperability with existing systems as well as in use cases like Archiving, it may be ne= cessary transcoding to H.264 to give proper versatility to recorded video d= ata. Hw support is still far from ideal. 

    3. All entities MUST su= pport both H.264 and VP8

    A. Are you in favor of this op= tion [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any objections = to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Considering #1 and #2 this would make things worse by ad= ding costs to codecs support and service developments.

    4. Browsers MUST suppor= t both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    As an exception to above, in the situation where #1 conc= erns where solved, and it was desired migration from #2 to #1, this case wo= uld be acceptable as a transitory situation. Also, if HW support for #2 does not really improve in non browser entities= , this could help

    5. All entities MUST support at least one = of H.264 and VP8

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any objections = to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Problems with interoperability.

    6. All entities MUST su= pport H.261

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any objections = to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Very o= ld technology. A significant step-back wrt VP8/H.264, and probably not prac= tical for a successful WebRTC. It is probably similar to no MTI, forcing in= dustry to integrate some other codec, without the consensus of an MTI, leading to Interoperability problems.

    7. There is no MTI vide= o codec
    A. Are you in favor of this= option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO
    B. Do you have any objectio= ns to this option, if so please summarize them:
    Problems wit= h interoperability.

    8. All entities MUST support H.261 and = all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    #5 and= #6 issues together.

    9. All entities MUST su= pport Theora

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any objections = to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #6.

    10. All entities MUST i= mplement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261}

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #3 combined with #6.

    11. All entities MUST i= mplement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263}

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #3.

    12. All entities MUST s= upport decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #3.
    13.&nb= sp; All entities MUST s= upport H.263

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Not be= tter than #1

    14. All entities MUST i= mplement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora}

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #6.

    15.&nb= sp;All entities MUST suppo= rt decoding using Theora.

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Simila= r to #6 jointly with #7.

    16. All entities MUST s= upport Motion JPEG

    A. Are you in favor of = this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    B. Do you have any obje= ctions to this option, if so please summarize them:

    Possib= le quality vs bitrate seems far from the requirements for RTC.

    Best,<= /div>

    =D2sca= r




    Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo.
    This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at:
    http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
     --Boundary_(ID_zGz2QqEwmPl1FV6kiheGFA)-- From john@jlc.net Mon Jan 13 09:20:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821101AE107 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bDgGLeshFw6r for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FE01ADFD4 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 5E5ADC94BE; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:19:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:19:58 -0500 From: John Leslie To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140113171958.GH47523@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: [rtcweb] An Observation of issues uncovered by the Straw Poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:20:15 -0000 As I said before, I commend the chairs for running this straw poll. I will trust the chairs to total and report the responses by question: I make no attempt to count the responses raising the issues I mention. - video quality: Quite a number of folks have based their rejection of particular choices on their perception of video quality; but I do not believe it worth our while to chase down "objective" measures of this. We have to accept that _some_ folks will end up "in the rough" here. - licensing: Many folks appear surprised that their views of licensing issues aren't shared by the rest of us. I'm not surprised, myself. This, IMHO, is "damage" to be routed around. Folks will, however, need to accept that we won't reach a single understanding of the licensing issues. One particular issue is Nokia's "refuse-to-license" stand on VP8. I remind folks that IETF takes no position on what a disclosure _means_ -- and there's no possibility to change that here. Individual companies make their own decisions on how to proceed; and it appears at first blush there are enough willing to proceed despite Nokia that VP8 will see significant deployment. - legacy interoperation: I only recently came to understand how important it is for some of us that legacy equipment may claim "WebRTC compatibility". We should, IMHO, take this very seriously. We can, perhaps, find "fudge-factor" room to allow this despite these not meeting a MTI requirement; but it really would be cleaner if they met our "MTI" specification. H.264 has the largest count of hardware that only does H.264; but there really is VP8-only deployment; so IMHO it's not unreasonable to ask that both H.264-only and VP8-only equipment fit within our "MTI". - future-proofing: This has seen alarmingly little consideration in the straw poll. Perhaps this is inevitable in any straw poll... But it would be very surprising if we never see H.265-only and VP9-only equipment deployed. I suggest that both of these deserve some consideration as to how we can allow these as "WebRTC compatible". - what happens if both ends don't support the same codec? Regardless of what we spec as MTI, there will be attempts to connect by devices which don't support our MTI codec(s). We can't stop this. But we seem to have minuscule common ground on what this "means". Many folks have assumed we'll just proceed with no video. Others, including pretty much anyone who cares about hearing-impaired folks, want _some_ video, no matter how imperfect. I suggest we take this second group more seriously. Implementations can always decide the video offered is worse than nothing, and refuse to display it; but hearing-impaired folks are often _very_ good at using vision to supplement their hearing. (I suggest that even folks who don't consider themselves hearing-impaired use such clues...) I have already started a thread about transcoding; and I'm happy to have a transcoding discussion there. Some of us have seriously proposed H.261 as a way to deal with failure to negotiate a common modern codec. IMHO, we've failed to approach consensus there, and, for myself only, I'm ready to abandon that effort. - are we ready for the question? This is a stock question to move discussion along. I won't answer it here; but I suggest there are signs we are not ready. The usual interpretation by those who hear the question is, "Are you likely to change your mind if discussion continues?" But that is not the correct interpretation in a consensus process. There are a significant number of responses indicating things which could change how some of us look at this question (including possible "standardization" of VP8, availability of packages to extend the capabilities of browsers, etcetera). There is also a very real possibility that we're the wrong group to be making the MTI decision. I don't see consensus there yet; but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Instead of continuing to beat our heads against this particular wall, might we consider how to negotiate a connection in the absence of a shared codec among those offered? -- John Leslie From badri@tokbox.com Mon Jan 13 09:45:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C671ADF89 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:45:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B12DeeyHJJOk for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDBF1ADF83 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so2601261wib.15 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:44:48 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3/kjro53EwNte/ToAC0zfQ60+hpQM+q0vggrvKB84lk=; b=U4phgFIhqVhTWqorOS3RKTqdD4O+H6nJlx65ri2DgEipA67HOiv0g8ZgIoyhfUP0l1 vyNhnS1OPwXV7L8TtZEssBBXjk3slTuFGTFEeUPWOGL0kO0PTgrCzaVqW4EKKwArc/B1 LfHMWvxmkzUDCwuS6rDFo5LHisoeWqfMSMUtcaqh4lUzkz4NmEgfbMp7i98fIeL0Lr/0 D2q3a0heqYuzr97P5An6N5HPVAm5i+/SLu1gqAPK735zM/4NS9HlPgGEH8eZ9gaSLg2o 1Viruc61ofydoJHt10Pzp/XSTtxFyW7N73Qm7Cw7m9WWAGkkNkErca3YCAcAETT3XTau +voA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmiXel6Pbsg3Vm4ytNTOh7VSB9qpFqRMhw0UbMmkufFfH+xIctx0K3R/wr6cgKTnG8wA5IJ MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.12.20 with SMTP id em20mr16960954wid.0.1389635088003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.23.70 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:44:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:44:47 -0800 Message-ID: From: Badri Rajasekar To: rtcweb@ietf.org, matthew.kaufman@skype.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdfa2c9ec5b04efdda17a Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:45:02 -0000 --f46d043bdfa2c9ec5b04efdda17a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear All, Apologies, based on Matthew Kaufman's feedback, resubmitting as my personal opinion. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable given licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. The burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers especially in non-browser entities. 2. All entities MUST support VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a better alternative in this light. 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Interoperability is key and this would necessitate transcoding at a server or some equally non-viable option for effectively using WebRTC. 6. All entities MUST support H.261 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Although H.261 would be a step back in terms of quality needs of WebRTC video. 7. There is no MTI video codec Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: There needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI video codec is hurting forward progress of WebRTC. 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.261 is not viable from a quality perspective and this mostly going to end up as fallback to H.261 in several scenarios without the advantages of H264/VP8 quality. 9. All entities MUST support Theora Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Technically this seems like a step back. 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: While superficially it appears fine, in my opinion it will hurt interoperability. 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 are problematic. 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially mitigated with decoding and I believe this will hurt adoption by small developers. 13. All entities MUST support H.263 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: H.263 doesn't provide better quality (as compared to VP8/H264) and potential IPR risks. 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same problem as Point 10. 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Same as 9. 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Existing market support might be limited and again performance concerns. Thanks, Badri --f46d043bdfa2c9ec5b04efdda17a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,

    Apologies, based on Matthew Kaufman's feedback, resubmitting as my pers= onal opinion.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:=C2=A0

    The= feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable given lice= nsing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. The bur= den of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers especially = in non-browser entities.

    =C2=A0

    2. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: YES.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0

    3. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= u>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a better= alternative in this light.

    =C2=A0

    4. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities M= UST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: Acceptable.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    5. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and = VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Interoperability is key and this would necessi= tate transcoding at a server or some equally non-viable option for effectiv= ely using WebRTC.

    =C2=A0

    6. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: Acceptable.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Although H.261 would be a step back in terms o= f quality needs of WebRTC video.

    =C2=A0

    7. =C2=A0 There is no MTI video codec

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= NO.

    =C2=A0

    =

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:=C2=A0

    The= re needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI video code= c is hurting forward progress of WebRTC.

    =C2=A0

    8. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUS= T support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: =C2=A0Acceptable

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    H.261 is not viable from a quality perspective= and this mostly going to end up as fallback to H.261 in several scenarios = without the advantages of H264/VP8 quality.

    =C2=A0

    9. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support Theora

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Technically this seems like a step back.

    =C2=A0

    10. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    While superficially it appears fine, in my opi= nion it will hurt interoperability.

    =C2=A0

    11. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 are prob= lematic.

    =C2=A0

    12. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and V= P8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8<= /u>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially mitiga= ted with decoding and I believe this will hurt adoption by small developers= .

    =C2=A0

    13. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.263

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: =C2=A0H.263 doesn't provide better quality (as comp= ared to VP8/H264) and potential IPR risks.

    =C2=A0

    14. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = Theora}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: =C2=A0No.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0Same problem as Point 10.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    15. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= NO.

    =C2=A0

    =

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: =C2=A0

    Sa= me as 9.

    =C2=A0

    16. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support Motion JPEG=

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Existing market support might be limited and a= gain performance concerns.=C2=A0


    Thanks,

    = Badri


    --f46d043bdfa2c9ec5b04efdda17a-- From badri@tokbox.com Mon Jan 13 09:46:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68021ADF84 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rh9UOWD3b_37 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E481ADF83 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hq4so2562984wib.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=I8V1sOxhBXBG5Q21/t4Eqj5yXiZZ8KvK/38agICoGw0=; b=NK0OnKG7Csr/xjF3yXM7xx7DzvDNTCDccV3VsRt8vHOiihCD7ejJKLANoa7dzeHsoY AWYIRia8aitEyrDL3evnhATCBeRmGmLJd+VkPxswRnUEx8fUeF7mbj0cou58yr0zyOU6 0eW0Zy7PfhSvivEIu53qHqYUoMq1eeOwXlmCZ2LTtqT7FQAalvKbpDuoIwzSbW1Pattv bL6jfh1EyYXlfkVrTT63rkxZETtxqNnaV2IoPEgm2f+pZkHDLCINlc7lTa7lJBuWoCp/ fWUoF5xdIRFsGalrLcvXRuhwh05XfeiEXxFYuALA9NZ1ekKUDUVOr8dVY9FdzpC45JBx SrWA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlHZPqM8cZ+NPvCBRknHgdEElVNUNjysOCO8wwIX8fp7VVTkHQWZCCRNrjNqcBnCYHGSGkf MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.133.135 with SMTP id pc7mr22935842wjb.51.1389635186076; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.23.70 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:46:25 -0800 Message-ID: From: Badri Rajasekar To: rtcweb@ietf.org, matthew.kaufman@skype.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122978aa2483804efdda7c8 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:46:41 -0000 --089e0122978aa2483804efdda7c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Adding Point No 1 which got missed. 1. All entities MUST support H.264 Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable given licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. The burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers especially in non-browser entities. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Badri Rajasekar wrote: > Dear All, > > Apologies, based on Matthew Kaufman's feedback, resubmitting as my > personal opinion. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable given > licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. The > burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers > especially in non-browser entities. > > > > 2. All entities MUST support VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: YES. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a better alternative in this light. > > > > 4. Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > > > 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Interoperability is key and this would necessitate transcoding at a server > or some equally non-viable option for effectively using WebRTC. > > > > 6. All entities MUST support H.261 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Although H.261 would be a step back in terms of quality needs of WebRTC > video. > > > > 7. There is no MTI video codec > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > There needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI video > codec is hurting forward progress of WebRTC. > > > > 8. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: Acceptable > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > H.261 is not viable from a quality perspective and this mostly going to > end up as fallback to H.261 in several scenarios without the advantages of > H264/VP8 quality. > > > > 9. All entities MUST support Theora > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Technically this seems like a step back. > > > > 10. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > While superficially it appears fine, in my opinion it will hurt > interoperability. > > > > 11. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 are problematic. > > > > 12. All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially mitigated with decoding and I > believe this will hurt adoption by small developers. > > > > 13. All entities MUST support H.263 > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > H.263 doesn't provide better quality (as compared to VP8/H264) and > potential IPR risks. > > > > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: No. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Same problem as Point 10. > > > > 15. All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Same as 9. > > > > 16. All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO. > > > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Existing market support might be limited and again performance concerns. > > > Thanks, > > Badri > > --089e0122978aa2483804efdda7c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Adding Point No 1 which got missed.

    1. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.264
    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO.
    =

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please= summarize them:=C2=A0
    The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable g= iven licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs= . The burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers es= pecially in non-browser entities.


    On Mon,= Jan 13, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Badri Rajasekar <badri@tokbox.com> = wrote:
    Dear All,

    Apologies, based on Matthew Kaufman's feedback, resubmitting as my pers= onal opinion.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:=C2=A0

    The feasibility of supporting H264 in all platforms is questionable give= n licensing issues (despite the Cisco binaries) and availability of APIs. T= he burden of IPR issue is going to deter small application developers espec= ially in non-browser entities.

    =C2=A0

    2. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: YES.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0

    3. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8<= /p>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Same objections as point 1 and VP8 is a = better alternative in this light.

    =C2=A0

    4. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities M= UST support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: Acceptable.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    5. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8<= /u>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Interoperability is key and this would n= ecessitate transcoding at a server or some equally non-viable option for ef= fectively using WebRTC.

    =C2=A0

    6. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: Acceptable.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Although H.261 would be a step back in t= erms of quality needs of WebRTC video.

    =C2=A0

    7. =C2=A0 There is no MTI video codec

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them:=C2=A0

    There needs to be a consensus for platform adoption. Lack of an MTI vide= o codec is hurting forward progress of WebRTC.

    =C2=A0

    8. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUS= T support at least one of H.264 and VP8

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: =C2=A0Acceptable

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    H.261 is not viable from a quality perspective= and this mostly going to end up as fallback to H.261 in several scenarios = without the advantages of H264/VP8 quality.

    =C2=A0

    9. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support Theora

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Technically this seems like a step back.=

    =C2=A0

    10. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.261}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    While superficially it appears fine, in = my opinion it will hurt interoperability.

    =C2=A0

    11. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, = H.263}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0IPR issues with H.263 and H.264 ar= e problematic.

    =C2=A0

    12. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and V= P8, and MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8<= /u>

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: = =C2=A0

    The IPR risk of H.264 is only partially = mitigated with decoding and I believe this will hurt adoption by small deve= lopers.

    =C2=A0

    13. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support H.263

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: NO.

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: =C2=A0H.263 doesn't provide better quality (as comp= ared to VP8/H264) and potential IPR risks.

    =C2=A0

    14. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H= .264, Theora}

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Accept= able]: =C2=A0No.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0Same problem as Point 10.

    =C2=A0

    15. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support decoding using Theora.

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]:= NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so ple= ase summarize them: =C2=A0

    Same as 9.

    =C2=A0

    16. =C2=A0 =C2=A0All entities MUST support Motion JPEG

    Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/= Acceptable]: NO.

    =C2=A0

    Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:=C2= =A0

    Existing market support might be limited= and again performance concerns.=C2=A0


    Thanks,

    = Badri



    --089e0122978aa2483804efdda7c8-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 09:49:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B6F1ADF83 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XnDXMz6B8RVH for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com (mail-ie0-f173.google.com [209.85.223.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66DF1ADF7F for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u16so5948755iet.32 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=jJ/856PshvvUG8hrGU0n4vuAv09hMwEzpG1sP/QbCXc=; b=abXAHX55awBbhqnY+yUvaSD8Wm7cHyoF7QPVTH2mACDnxveG/Iu4wnCZmjEeIApewa Zt76kpD2HymHV55tgN9+J0sJcyv01adzxC9BjwdYFcemffPQc2gHGSPsZZ8kweCnxngs bxVmquArY8UHDjLTLSct+X/vAcNab2mI6lch2FB3YdNQKrv00z+3veKyUhYGBlsYxMik fxzwgQ0zGL6b5/yePyss4XjrqXQQHWoWtm9uRNQFInltEeA1v2yRG1fes5Q5DIBjfsvl B5KxWnAFeqtmk3/nObHZnlpAeK6vTqx6Pzw/ah4MJN9j7Y+6228xAJryRAdmGZj4CkDE NieQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn7xdZ35QdOcyvBExVYftNw4yfsUxhr0Lz0+bF+I0WsPQziNCTxLwXd0fMe5lMAylrhW1YG X-Received: by 10.50.154.102 with SMTP id vn6mr19889158igb.15.1389635341618; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm19448597igc.4.2014.01.13.09.48.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:49:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:48:57 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080007040009000108090608" Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:49:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080007040009000108090608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument. As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, * Understand SDP, * Are WebRTC compliant is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. Gili On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, > and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the > rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without > having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is > possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it > introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the > possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion. > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using > legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > Keith > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *cowwoc > *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:39 > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: >> >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? >>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. >> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >> >> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with > using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 > are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > * Use H.261, or > * Transcode, or > * Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are > forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting > H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 > and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support > because it's so computationally cheap. > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but > rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and > against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to > support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* > technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards > compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable > benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available > royalty-free. > > Gili > --------------080007040009000108090608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
     
    It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
     
    It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
     
    Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
     
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili

    --------------080007040009000108090608-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 10:08:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F611ADF96 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:08:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JW1mDW9jBL46 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957C41ADF8F for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so4296423ieb.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:07:55 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=95csZ/OYQP+f6C9Hk6wIyDT2BAC/iBQ/eODImCE72sM=; b=TlH3sxXyGGHGhyF7h3Z7gk5Le+WL5Ur5bHxUi1/sZVkttwohwoy1iW2f+YGOp1eXFn kujdZ9OeQRksMAZ9vBH+Bv7Vwu6i9LDLizRLzYVGPOdewTK60Z9bwmibCGiaqmmvxe60 SCywDHUF9eBu6qKfn4QkSQOMjDP8PPZK5r89GQg35WsHANlzHk3l980K/DV5CurGG8Zh spwP3Q75uRGW23+Av8bzmmQvXeN4l492ceCGFuAhMe7xVapCqCq3Nqt/cC0EDszsA+rC SlHNVJQlXPXxga2iixT+P6nYuDijRxT/D6e5ChWysKK/FfhMAErQyJx/Bx/3JR4JTz4a 8l3w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlaGAOykgSlupGEWO/O7AZ0NIEOLa3g9xvqg+ITw2ZP6kpeH36Cf6tMcpZfxFAUcUsHfGa9 X-Received: by 10.43.161.2 with SMTP id me2mr22435736icc.20.1389636475390; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x6sm19536580igb.3.2014.01.13.10.07.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:07:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D42B77.5000400@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:07:51 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140113171958.GH47523@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140113171958.GH47523@verdi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] An Observation of issues uncovered by the Straw Poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:08:08 -0000 Hi John, On 13/01/2014 12:19 PM, John Leslie wrote: > [snip] > > - future-proofing: > > This has seen alarmingly little consideration in the straw poll. > Perhaps this is inevitable in any straw poll... But it would be very > surprising if we never see H.265-only and VP9-only equipment deployed. > I suggest that both of these deserve some consideration as to how we > can allow these as "WebRTC compatible". I agree. We should post a "deprecation strategy" which would outline the process for removing MTI features in the future. > - what happens if both ends don't support the same codec? > > Regardless of what we spec as MTI, there will be attempts to > connect by devices which don't support our MTI codec(s). We can't > stop this. But we seem to have minuscule common ground on what this > "means". Many folks have assumed we'll just proceed with no video. As far as I'm concerned, if the remote end does not follow the specification then behavior is undefined. In practice this means that I should be free to dump the non-compliant peers. > Others, including pretty much anyone who cares about hearing-impaired > folks, want _some_ video, no matter how imperfect. > > I suggest we take this second group more seriously. Implementations > can always decide the video offered is worse than nothing, and refuse > to display it; but hearing-impaired folks are often _very_ good at > using vision to supplement their hearing. (I suggest that even folks > who don't consider themselves hearing-impaired use such clues...) Agreed. > Instead of continuing to beat our heads against this particular > wall, might we consider how to negotiate a connection in the absence > of a shared codec among those offered? I believe the specification already does this. MTI is meant as a fallback, but nothing prevents implementations from negotiating to a higher-end codec. Gili From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Mon Jan 13 10:19:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE4D1AE1B0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lq7AHYg9-G4i for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E37F1AE174 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:19:38 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-95-52d42e2f44ef Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 87.C2.23787.F2E24D25; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:19:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.201]) by ESESSHC021.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.81]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:19:26 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: cowwoc , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPEIfEuw3Y2G/XhUWXgF5ftFPQD5qC8uGh Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:19:26 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja6+3pUgg4V/hCzO3PzPbvG08Syj xdp/7ewOzB6tz/ayejyZMJ3dY8mSn0wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGfuvfWEp+K1UcWDSJdYG xkkyXYycHBICJhI3nh1kh7DFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwiFHi4NcpUM4SRol3N94xdzFycLAJWEh0 /9MGiYsItDBK/Pp+jQWkW1ggXmLv5TmsILaIQILE+s7DbBC2kcTq678YQWwWAVWJT6++gdm8 Ar4Sx589ZYFY8JJJ4u7Oh2AJTgEDiR1H1oMNYgQ66fupNUwgNrOAuMStJ/OZIE4VkFiy5zwz hC0q8fLxP1aQ4yQElCSmbU2DKNeRWLD7ExuErS2xbOFrZoi9ghInZz5hmcAoOgvJ1FlIWmYh aZmFpGUBI8sqRvbcxMyc9HLDTYzACDm45bfuDsZT50QOMUpzsCiJ83546xwkJJCeWJKanZpa kFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgdGEN/NB2IujFQVHMhgU0p8Zfi61YP6tPfOD1P+mMM1Wq3u/f+y4 bcqQKyN14+q3U2qfFXSftW40CTQ/UXL0JX//EZ+G7ecnnHF+IaA7f23Bu+d3/KPcmxd2SW5O Yb3Mcm/1n46NfgcUGJjU9BRkEu9G7Zn2k/Xf/vlZ3yuMfd+FtbUZzZ/1dKISS3FGoqEWc1Fx IgA1y61CXgIAAA== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:19:42 -0000 I don't understand what the two first bullets have to do with interoperabil= ity. The way my legacy device control the H.246 encoding/decoding internall= y is irrelevant, and the JavaScript app can implement whatever media negoti= ation protocol my legacy device support. Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will ofte= n be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But= , such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. Regards, Christer ________________________________________ From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc [cowwoc@bbs.dark= tech.org] Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw= Poll replies) Keith, Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTC= WEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get thi= s argument. As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so= , * Understand SDP, * Are WebRTC compliant is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin s= upporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. Gili On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. It is not about preserving our existing equipment. It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we= want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the= entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort = to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has = a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which ca= n be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call p= ath using that delay portion. Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy = systems than there are using RTCWEB. Keith ________________________________ From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC t= o interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only= ? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo= ok backwards and not forwards. I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn= ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with= a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit= surprised that your are part of them. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either: * Use H.261, or * Transcode, or * Drop Video By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to ei= ther transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as = compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. Yo= u don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= . Gili From roman@telurix.com Mon Jan 13 10:25:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F52F1ADF9A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VEHogiwucK0G for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4E61ADF48 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id l18so6102907wgh.35 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:41 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=X9p7rVQLkOn978XxEn41gnKvaXRMhi9qL6j0P5oS7Ys=; b=QYY4oH9ZL2AxqEUeBnVwv/gjUIrgUyWk1cedxtmdzBnUnStoWQF9G2Lh81oST4KyW4 Jsoe1o0238B1HmB6DHh1jkmLM+4UGWrNdHKq9IdVGK3h9YhQDy+RxcfRwh6x6O/9pv9F Jy+HOQkprLH0DD264lKsrXVpg1br/qpaLJ9MTNkMDv6q+AEWxYVrgDDWT2av2JD4oQRD BRmpXa87BSqEQ4A9j9PS/6ErBwRNxSZUcyOQcE1bk4XdsAVyTWtMTfIIvdxe+fRo6YJq 37EuoL4BERNP1RZJlrOfa+GbT9mSELKXE03vEZK7PtUd8VYFk8RynuTErMptyLSrnUrU H3Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnNlC13i/CoS2wRj5yl/kVYIikX3QnEUS/XAvSQ3ZrSBfUmONIhta6uSFnugajfn0e+CkYY X-Received: by 10.180.187.36 with SMTP id fp4mr16616397wic.9.1389637541706; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm12198417wje.12.2014.01.13.10.25.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id d13so1196413wiw.12 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.185.205 with SMTP id fe13mr23373459wjc.23.1389637539820; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:25:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:25:39 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: cowwoc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6bc9aed802d04efde3325 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:25:57 -0000 --047d7bd6bc9aed802d04efde3325 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think this was discussed on this list before, but there is a big difference in implementation of simple packet forwarder which implements ICE/DTLS and deals with WebRTC SDP peculiarities but does not have to transcode media, and the full gateway which will need to transcode. In the former case you do not need to re-order packets, you do not need to introduce delays, and do not need to incur CPU transcoding costs. You can build a solution that proxies few thousand concurrent RTP channels with single millisecond delays on a standard server (the CPU load would be the same order of magnitude as TURN server). On the other hand, if you need to transcode you need a jitter buffer, you need to synchronize audio and video when transcoded, and you need enough CPU resources to transcode. This means 40-60 ms delay plus only hundreds of channels per server. This is very expensive to scale to any reasonable service volume. _____________ Roman Shpount On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:48 PM, cowwoc wrote: > Keith, > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect > RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get > this argument. > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > - Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing > so, > - Understand SDP, > - Are WebRTC compliant > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin > supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > Gili > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and > we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of > the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to > resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but > it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, > which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in > the call path using that delay portion. > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy > systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > Keith > > ------------------------------ > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *cowwoc > *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:39 > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using > *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on > both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > - Use H.261, or > - Transcode, or > - Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to > either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple > as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your > device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally > cheap. > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather > to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against > everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when > breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available > royalty-free. > > Gili > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7bd6bc9aed802d04efde3325 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I think this was discussed on this list before, but t= here is a big difference in implementation of simple packet forwarder which= implements ICE/DTLS and deals with WebRTC SDP peculiarities but does not h= ave to transcode media, and the full gateway which will need to transcode. = In the former case you do not need to re-order packets, you do not need to = introduce delays, and do not need to incur CPU transcoding costs. You can b= uild a solution that proxies few thousand concurrent RTP channels with sing= le millisecond delays on a standard server (the CPU load would be the same = order of magnitude as TURN server). On the other hand, if you need to trans= code you need a jitter buffer, you need to synchronize audio and video when= transcoded, and you need enough CPU resources to transcode. This means 40-= 60 ms delay plus only hundreds of channels per server. This is very expensi= ve to scale to any reasonable service volume.

    _____________=
    Roman Shpount


    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:48 PM, cowwoc= <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    =20 =20 =20
    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    =20 =20
    Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    =A0
    It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    =A0
    It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
    =A0
    Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    =A0
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [m= ailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want t=
o restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore t=
o old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because the=
y look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructiv=
e way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn=
ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live =
with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" featur=
es, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/ms=
g10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling htt= ps://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware suppor= t because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability&qu= ot; as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili


    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --047d7bd6bc9aed802d04efde3325-- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jan 13 11:28:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06EC1ADFBC for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rL4plYMlzFO8 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB79D1ADF89 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0DJS6QJ018221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 13:28:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0DJS5sb025595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:28:06 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:28:05 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPEIfBBYBQxz1a/EydoeaOltD+SJqDCDJA Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:28:05 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:28:22 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression always equates = to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero. But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with the appli= cation combined with an interworking box, they can be easily communicated w= ith by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video tran= scoder in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, parti= cularly where we need to lipsync voice. For scenarios see ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and anne= x H and ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/23701.htm regards Keith ________________________________ From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49 To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw= Poll replies) Keith, Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTC= WEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get thi= s argument. As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so= , * Understand SDP, * Are WebRTC compliant is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin s= upporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. Gili On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. It is not about preserving our existing equipment. It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we= want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the= entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort = to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has = a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which ca= n be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call p= ath using that delay portion. Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy = systems than there are using RTCWEB. Keith ________________________________ From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC t= o interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only= ? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo= ok backwards and not forwards. I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn= ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with= a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit= surprised that your are part of them. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either: * Use H.261, or * Transcode, or * Drop Video By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to ei= ther transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as = compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. Yo= u don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= . Gili --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Well given that the last element = of your Boolean expression always equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is = zero.
     
    But the first two elements equate= to significant numbers and with the application combined with an interwork= ing box, they can be easily communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video transco= der in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, particul= arly where we need to lipsync voice.
     
    For scenarios see
     
    ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm&nb= sp;release 12 section 11 and annex H
     
    and
     
     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.dar= ktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment o= n Straw Poll replies)

    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTC= WEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get thi= s argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, =
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin s= upporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is import= ant to some of us.
    &= nbsp;
    It is not about preserving our ex= isting equipment.
    &= nbsp;
    It is about the fact the communic= ation involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communicati= on between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transc= oding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost th= at someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be cate= red for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
    &= nbsp;
    Currently there are a considerabl= e number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCW= EB.
    &= nbsp;
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to re=
strict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol=
d features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo=
ok backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive wa=
y forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn=
ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with=
 a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" featur=
es, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf=
.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to= either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple = as compiling https:= //github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need= hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= .

    Gili

    --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664FR712WXCHMBA11zeu_-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 14:57:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0432F1A1F4A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:57:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_szBpryG47o for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6A91A1F33 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so4744744ieb.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rlYoHEJr/K8YQTojNFm02+E/rysDBB8fv84lePlsQZA=; b=EvSTKDUSb+cuQ+0L7dt4Ry1hYUg2PLc5piu2LmL0DxX83PjbeADfBqqjBQDPHBn1tj qBSfsC9/fV66XKBfDZmK7W+OuQJk+Ug66QMTrcu3Monm0vreOA7huWKjYgeuy5dDc8pl ++Xi/VECMQHu54e3YzYmQNxXWgtRIjjkYmAnQBF3yorQwZqcxyt/gM/0VJ0sXkwXfSb4 M38/u9qI+JRiMbw9VKODtB1rrMPyR/6N2YDp3cgHxZp4KDdZ0vlV35FbjclgLzGqTVsW ZuYb1DgGNi3HxTMKCD45aXTgOPhzoIa2Tu7C/TF2LqoOuBqVIzFtxQ0ux0J25+RwqNzO oViA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk7nPpb+IvaRK/EzshslmLVKhNyZgJqbcUsdv/Pd1DtMDNwPBdhdicS4FBYLbt+hafCYjTX X-Received: by 10.50.43.134 with SMTP id w6mr21655194igl.20.1389653807885; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lp9sm20821980igb.2.2014.01.13.14.56.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:56:43 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:57:01 -0000 On 13/01/2014 1:19 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > I don't understand what the two first bullets have to do with interoperability. The way my legacy device control the H.246 encoding/decoding internally is irrelevant, and the JavaScript app can implement whatever media negotiation protocol my legacy device support. Christer, It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the MTI discussion. > Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. Thanks, Gili > > Regards, > > Christer > > > ________________________________________ > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) > > Keith, > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument. > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, > * Understand SDP, > * Are WebRTC compliant > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > Gili > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion. > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > Keith > > ________________________________ > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > * Use H.261, or > * Transcode, or > * Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free. > > Gili > From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 14:58:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F2D1AE002 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r-zXQJd9T-ma for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f173.google.com (mail-ig0-f173.google.com [209.85.213.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E712F1A1F4A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f173.google.com with SMTP id c10so3339016igq.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:20 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=7UWJwVnTDM+PY5+7nzXvJUotw2XdTc/IPxu5gzRJ5X4=; b=EBFs1SFoqhzS45XtUFVcYPyBJeu2Dd65x6f2JJ2GHRyx97XSlncqaz9rXFllTqCW/D jvep++/JdGa3GW9ldsWzKzxc0y1Udm29T7fieTcPqXvygJt19eL6e68Gww3yEnW5Pvyr NnK3SyTgMcp2nHZenN0krWWS5n5hMrE7eiRj97V+BKqXswr9ekE11iu4G97yM7wPmyVb C8lBb1YeXIVICP2rZ+4ip+cvIXGB2ai0fSGL51HFGXZZoOFF1tKSTps/mUQCcnybirBt vBXp0IwCybhsNqiUCZzyyrmMBeoliT19d4KRhP77v9z0dxJt9SRu2xOYjjwmFHPOUGrN xM0g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmWbABPLfbMFKNMoH2TPdMqI2ZvlFUEz8w7f1UQ0qAAxaGZNNNNoNLlehavWREdKpZgvK7x X-Received: by 10.50.4.9 with SMTP id g9mr21779360igg.22.1389653900674; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a1sm20837394igo.0.2014.01.13.14.58.16 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:58:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D46F84.8090909@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:58:12 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Shpount References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080705070504090907030104" Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:58:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080705070504090907030104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roman, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode? Thanks, Gili On 13/01/2014 1:25 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > I think this was discussed on this list before, but there is a big > difference in implementation of simple packet forwarder which > implements ICE/DTLS and deals with WebRTC SDP peculiarities but does > not have to transcode media, and the full gateway which will need to > transcode. In the former case you do not need to re-order packets, you > do not need to introduce delays, and do not need to incur CPU > transcoding costs. You can build a solution that proxies few thousand > concurrent RTP channels with single millisecond delays on a standard > server (the CPU load would be the same order of magnitude as TURN > server). On the other hand, if you need to transcode you need a jitter > buffer, you need to synchronize audio and video when transcoded, and > you need enough CPU resources to transcode. This means 40-60 ms delay > plus only hundreds of channels per server. This is very expensive to > scale to any reasonable service volume. > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:48 PM, cowwoc > wrote: > > Keith, > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you > expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I > just don't get this argument. > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for > doing so, > * Understand SDP, > * Are WebRTC compliant > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* > products to get released. > > Gili > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more >> parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB >> user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable >> of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all >> calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that >> someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can >> be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in >> the call path using that delay portion. >> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users >> using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >> Keith >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> *cowwoc >> *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:39 >> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >> >> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com >> wrote: >>> >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. >>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >>> >>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >> >> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck >> with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 >> or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you >> can either: >> >> * Use H.261, or >> * Transcode, or >> * Drop Video >> >> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and >> are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to >> supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling >> https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your >> device. You don't need hardware support because it's so >> computationally cheap. >> >> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, >> but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote >> for it and against everything else use "legacy >> interoperability" as argument. >> >> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to >> support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* >> technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining >> backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a >> noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). >> >> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 >> available royalty-free. >> >> Gili >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --------------080705070504090907030104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Roman,

    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode?

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 1:25 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:
    I think this was discussed on this list before, but there is a big difference in implementation of simple packet forwarder which implements ICE/DTLS and deals with WebRTC SDP peculiarities but does not have to transcode media, and the full gateway which will need to transcode. In the former case you do not need to re-order packets, you do not need to introduce delays, and do not need to incur CPU transcoding costs. You can build a solution that proxies few thousand concurrent RTP channels with single millisecond delays on a standard server (the CPU load would be the same order of magnitude as TURN server). On the other hand, if you need to transcode you need a jitter buffer, you need to synchronize audio and video when transcoded, and you need enough CPU resources to transcode. This means 40-60 ms delay plus only hundreds of channels per server. This is very expensive to scale to any reasonable service volume.

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:48 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
     
    It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
     
    It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
     
    Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
     
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili


    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    --------------080705070504090907030104-- From roman@telurix.com Mon Jan 13 15:00:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30AB1AE1BC for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:00:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BI-uecFarfDm for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f42.google.com (mail-wg0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0068F1AE00A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id l18so3346853wgh.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zauPmqVzjkpRW3l0sLrqfN6iWqLG472ADxfJQq5zH3U=; b=kWjppPAxRjveMX31h6koAE//vIH9wkggqrYeJhbp7SmT68NYG7C7qws0hhwbwqTc46 yoW/FJxfy4hYi/srEMa0ntUNcZrBQWSCt+mcNeYMJ1/QBJCzOfTNesiodfPQBT/8St/o wfdZCj5CUTAWZeDJivQreyyeylJNA1U9Psqn3/1e79K5S6xU1xKJvDq2CJc70ShKfGFm NfHhU4CerG5yac+8g6dz26m7rSi+epJxj1v7SOaDXLRkYxzA+GtJ8C80e3PlbdESHAA3 rCNXO1ntDtjBy1v82GqW/iD1j4FrSurUtpTRmaB9T3dvuy9ABDfknRnS+GZpENMTTuW5 inMA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk5IfXoHyiMIbJKSj5NgMXisZschlnl3akS27Gkk3rlB9v7YbzJqZCyNR/T1Gyzm1ma+zco X-Received: by 10.180.98.199 with SMTP id ek7mr12611040wib.21.1389653996380; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w1sm20193880wib.6.2014.01.13.14.59.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hq4so2931377wib.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.11.201 with SMTP id ek9mr17514491wid.54.1389653995104; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:59:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <816BCA72-36A0-49A0-8FD5-B679808A6FEB@apple.com> References: <816BCA72-36A0-49A0-8FD5-B679808A6FEB@apple.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: David Singer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be044bd301e04efe20871 Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:00:10 -0000 --f46d043be044bd301e04efe20871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:07 PM, David Singer wrote: > > One place might be to look at the IPR statements on ISO/IEC 14496-29, Web > Video Coding, which is the document that contains constrained baseline of > H.264/AVC, of course. Some of them are straight =91type 1=92; some are = type > 2, but be careful, some wrote =93but will do type 1 if all others do the > same=94 but that statement is not reflected in the rather weak ISO databa= se. > The ISO patent database (an excel spreadsheet, no less) is easily found = by > searching. (That identifies companies; for access to MPEG documents, > national body statements, and so on, you=92ll need to find which organiza= tion > in your country forms the national delegation to MPEG. For the USA, that= =92s > INCITS. This is obviously more work.) > > It is great that Apple and Cisco both are offering straight option 1 license for their IPR used in Web Video Coding, but (grumbling on) what I cannot figure out are the positions of Alcatel-Lucent, Qualcomm, and last, but not least, Nokia. I can see that they have IPR declarations against ISO/IEC 14496-29, but I cannot see if they decided to commit to either option 1 or even option 2 license. These companies are actively lobbing H.264 as video MTI. Do they realize that their own IPR declarations actually prevents this? (grumbling off) _____________ Roman Shpount --f46d043be044bd301e04efe20871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:= 07 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:

    = One place might be to look at the IPR statements on ISO/IEC 14496-29, Web V= ideo Coding, which is the document that contains constrained baseline of H.= 264/AVC, of course. =A0Some of them are straight =91type 1=92; =A0some are = type 2, but be careful, some wrote =93but will do type 1 if all others do t= he same=94 but that statement is not reflected in the rather weak ISO datab= ase. =A0The ISO patent database (an excel spreadsheet, no less) is easily f= ound by searching. =A0(That identifies companies; for access to MPEG docume= nts, national body statements, and so on, you=92ll need to find which organ= ization in your country forms the national delegation to MPEG. =A0For the U= SA, that=92s INCITS. This is obviously more work.)

    =A0
    It is great that Apple and Cisco both a= re offering straight option 1 license for their IPR used in Web Video Codin= g, but (grumbling on) what I cannot figure out are the positions of=A0Alcat= el-Lucent, Qualcomm, and last, but not least, Nokia. I can see that they ha= ve IPR declarations against ISO/IEC 14496-29, but I cannot see if they deci= ded to commit to either option 1 or even option 2 license. These companies = are actively lobbing H.264 as video MTI. Do they realize that their own IPR= declarations actually prevents this? (grumbling off)
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
    =A0
    --f46d043be044bd301e04efe20871-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 15:09:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35851AE1D8 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1sDo3l9BFOEd for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9681AE1CB for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id at1so1211912iec.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:23 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=Q0LfrZ3zvV80fmTF2d867A+voNvGX7ErmBXSHVpYOrk=; b=BzCuGSi8T030GZC9CBsQOyZKLokm8aAI4plyLDnlDElFnU5XGeDfJB/olzLoIEqm2X A59zb1A9oUAukLNmdNqTitnrX5m9BVJs7xxmzpTC1xw94g3JL7owMuKv6MMR8Rnp0J+t gioJVgO30TVDXykCaIvnYOr+VOfPFu+/lcjZCqULkGQA/wH1hzMD3A05TpCJGPY1/fI8 Af3mozLkL6d9AJxP3JK5R716btSIGFHM9lszBZl1vlYZty6IUfO59moVvbPhj9NHAR+w ZS/D7as8ZxSyjRl2VJHwwaxTIaDYwXKJ7jDUOg/vv4YOic7l1mIe/RDHl1HbMoZ8YAHQ pXmA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/fEJl52PsiDO8PRYumphFllmrLSy1mHMVj4+rxObqf+QO9YdNXQ09gmvB/HhroLoMvY/l X-Received: by 10.43.51.65 with SMTP id vh1mr23252532icb.24.1389654563316; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id u1sm20880894ige.1.2014.01.13.15.09.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:09:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:09:19 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000806020509040004070506" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:09:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000806020509040004070506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression always > equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero. So how is H.264 market share at all relevant to the MTI discussion? If you have to release a new product anyway, you can make it run whatever codec you want. > But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with the > application combined with an interworking box, they can be easily > communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always > include a video transcoder in that box, we will all the disadvantages > already identified, particularly where we need to lipsync voice. Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can "encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so"? If so, please provide concrete examples. To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just trying to understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI for interoperability with the "millions of existing devices out there". That's the argument I've been hearing over and over again, which I'm trying to understand. > For scenarios see > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and > annex H > and > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/23701.htm If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems that don't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back and forth between IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then your argument is actually that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake of *gateways*, not legacy devices. Meaning, your legacy devices will never run WebRTC but you want the gateways to convert from IMS to WebRTC without having to transcode the video. Is that correct? What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny screens? Or are we talking about something more elaborate? Thanks, Gili > regards > Keith > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > *Sent:* 13 January 2014 17:49 > *To:* DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] > Comment on Straw Poll replies) > > Keith, > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you > expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I > just don't get this argument. > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for > doing so, > * Understand SDP, > * Are WebRTC compliant > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* > products to get released. > > Gili > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more >> parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB >> user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable >> of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all >> calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that >> someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can >> be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in >> the call path using that delay portion. >> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users >> using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >> Keith >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> *cowwoc >> *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:39 >> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >> >> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: >>> >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. >>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >>> >>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >> >> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck >> with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 >> or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you >> can either: >> >> * Use H.261, or >> * Transcode, or >> * Drop Video >> >> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and >> are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to >> supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling >> https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your >> device. You don't need hardware support because it's so >> computationally cheap. >> >> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, >> but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote >> for it and against everything else use "legacy >> interoperability" as argument. >> >> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to >> support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* >> technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining >> backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a >> noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). >> >> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 >> available royalty-free. >> >> Gili >> > --------------000806020509040004070506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression always equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero.

    So how is H.264 market share at all relevant to the MTI discussion? If you have to release a new product anyway, you can make it run whatever codec you want.
    But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with the application combined with an interworking box, they can be easily communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video transcoder in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, particularly where we need to lipsync voice.

    Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can "encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so"? If so, please provide concrete examples.

    To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just trying to understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI for interoperability with the "millions of existing devices out there". That's the argument I've been hearing over and over again, which I'm trying to understand.

     
    For scenarios see
     
    ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and annex H
     
    and
     

    If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems that don't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back and forth between IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then your argument is actually that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake of *gateways*, not legacy devices. Meaning, your legacy devices will never run WebRTC but you want the gateways to convert from IMS to WebRTC without having to transcode the video. Is that correct?

    What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny screens? Or are we talking about something more elaborate?

    Thanks,
    Gili

     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies)

    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
     
    It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
     
    It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
     
    Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
     
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili


    --------------000806020509040004070506-- From singer@apple.com Mon Jan 13 15:13:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B948C1AE1EC for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbicertLWY6X for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C531A1F74 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Received: from relay4.apple.com ([17.128.113.87]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MZD00E2U4GOBML0@mail-out.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807157-b7ff46d000001540-a1-52d47308dcab Received: from cardamom.apple.com (cardamom.apple.com [17.128.115.94]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 60.FE.05440.80374D25; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.153.41.107] (unknown [17.153.41.107]) by cardamom.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01 (7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MZD00MXZ4I0PT30@cardamom.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:12 -0800 (PST) From: David Singer In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:13:12 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <20470FD4-459A-4067-9A15-8C10DF8AF507@apple.com> References: <816BCA72-36A0-49A0-8FD5-B679808A6FEB@apple.com> To: Roman Shpount X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAcp8tRfCXI4N4JG4u1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8f6PRcEBgYo9i34yNTBO5e1i5OSQEDCRuL5+PyOELSZx4d56 ti5GLg4hgYlMEmu33WKEcBYySfxYupi9i5GDg1lAT+L+RS2QBl4gc+O82cwgtrCAksS5Rz3s IDabgKrEgznHwIZyCgRLbN74hhWklQUofuOAH8QUX4lVh+RAKpgFtCWevLvACjHRRmLNuxfs EFvvMktMuDofLCEC1Pr3+2QmkF4JAVmJ+adLJzAKzEK4ZxaSe2YhmbqAkXkVo0BRak5ipYle YkFBTqpecn7uJkZwwBWG72D8t8zqEKMAB6MSD+8JxitBQqyJZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4e+SBQrwp iZVVqUX58UWlOanFhxilOViUxHn7ooFSAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGxj1nFthscnM6XPvZ mNvm/FWGzOAnfNJnW1yaA+82LbuQs2+jf3999w4V/+VGq3mdON22ciy7Pk3l9XGnedXrpj3Q SLiZv2tihPSe0m8eC5P3ht4+Wur1e3WXwxo7qYr/hkFsRmWO7yV2FpQ9t444cOTYa6b0a1or pheF/NRzfrAm7OFE+RZPXyWW4oxEQy3mouJEAMT9X7M0AgAA Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.264 as MTI X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:13:25 -0000 On Jan 13, 2014, at 14:59 , Roman Shpount wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:07 PM, David Singer = wrote: >=20 > One place might be to look at the IPR statements on ISO/IEC 14496-29, = Web Video Coding, which is the document that contains constrained = baseline of H.264/AVC, of course. Some of them are straight =91type 1=92;= some are type 2, but be careful, some wrote =93but will do type 1 if = all others do the same=94 but that statement is not reflected in the = rather weak ISO database. The ISO patent database (an excel = spreadsheet, no less) is easily found by searching. (That identifies = companies; for access to MPEG documents, national body statements, and = so on, you=92ll need to find which organization in your country forms = the national delegation to MPEG. For the USA, that=92s INCITS. This is = obviously more work.) >=20 > =20 > It is great that Apple and Cisco both are offering straight option 1 = license for their IPR used in Web Video Coding, but (grumbling on) what = I cannot figure out are the positions of Alcatel-Lucent, Qualcomm, and = last, but not least, Nokia. I can see that they have IPR declarations = against ISO/IEC 14496-29, but I cannot see if they decided to commit to = either option 1 or even option 2 license. These companies are actively = lobbing H.264 as video MTI. Do they realize that their own IPR = declarations actually prevents this? (grumbling off) My turn to grumble. The ISO database is maddeningly unclear on the = statements; for example, a number show neither type 1 (RF) nor Type 2 = (RAND), which implies (I am sure incorrectly), Type 3. And the = statement itself (which might list details)=20 We=92re trying to get more, um, clarity, here. In the meantime, there = are enough statements explicitly Type 2 to get you started, I hope. I=92m= sorry, struggling with the declaration process itself was not something = I needed to spend time on. > _____________ > Roman Shpount > =20 David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. From roman@telurix.com Mon Jan 13 15:22:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1C71AE1C1 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGIBjBeo1xhG for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com (mail-wi0-f177.google.com [209.85.212.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD0A1AE00A for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id hm2so5319wib.16 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=uP6agzcEA6zOS/oVUNAFa6TLUUaW7NsPpkk8qTgPegQ=; b=eZJJXaJi2Z9Gza8wAW1t0Roub4N0j2QmrHO3o8Z294bFEhX6cyXmzEspNVf8fR11aJ PonyvfqNHrbRKMvt0jB+akIwXSYTXjIhCdK0DC+oMNmMD+T1fXS9v6yDKnG/DdpzEoVn hWIgIR86PfgHp8mNYHzEF8WM0CFso5RCYuhJNE3+Cy3Zjv6TQsC1Z0ZkBv+ORfU9U8Q0 hkExGhCGyrL0nMD8Mi+A0v3Mi2kcy1aNNj+34bFnroZynGAxDuH+vxoHTRp69lngkZya fsUgY44AgLtwcCdPLkabUtpPOEZW3ZkMAffIRbOft2QLdLPJjf3S/2oqVmR7lnaie30Z ZvzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmdWEgKTLfFC4XSrgIcs6C5DvAv07kzPuij66QZq/38U81wxEVEjhx6ZyhZV1WFmGCUiy/U X-Received: by 10.194.77.148 with SMTP id s20mr366957wjw.4.1389655310493; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f43.google.com (mail-wg0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e5sm12811320wja.15.2014.01.13.15.21.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id y10so224545wgg.10 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.42 with SMTP id hh10mr17620291wib.15.1389655309120; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:21:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D46F84.8090909@bbs.darktech.org> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <52D46F84.8090909@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:21:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: cowwoc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3bae6f0f7bd104efe257db Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:22:05 -0000 --e89a8f3bae6f0f7bd104efe257db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc wrote: > Roman, > > I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). > Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode? > > Let's say we have, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain RTP/SIP and WebRTC browser on the other end, which supports H.264 as well. It is possible to make a gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP signaling negotiation, implement DTLS/SRTP and ICE to communicate with WebRTC browser, and will forward RTP payload without ever decoding or re-encoding H.264 video payload. Such gateway will scale to thousands of channels per server and will only introduce delay in the range of single milliseconds. This gateway does not need any special hardware and will not even need to implement the video codec. I would say that complexity of such gateway is not that different from the complexity of a TURN server. The costs of operating such gateway are similar as well. On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8, your gateway becomes a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will need to add jitter buffer, H.264 and VP8 codec implementations, and audio/video re-synchronization to the gateway. This gateway will require custom DSP or it will only scale to hundreds of channels. It will introduce at least tens of milliseconds of delay (due to the need for the jitter buffer and audio/video resync). The costs of operating such gateway would be an order of magnitude more then costs of operating a gateway that does not need to transcode. In a lot of environments, operation costs of such gateway as well as delays introduced would make it unsustainable. For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web Browsers should support as many codecs as possible. If anything, the result of this should be that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. The same argument actually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe web browsers should support AMR-WB and G.722). This being said, I believe market needs would define which additional codecs will be supported by the browsers. Selection of MTI cannot be driven just by legacy interop. _____________ Roman Shpount --e89a8f3bae6f0f7bd104efe257db Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darkt= ech.org> wrote:
    =20 =20 =20
    Roman,

    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your arg= ument (yet). Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode?


    Let's say we hav= e, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain RTP/SIP and WebRTC browse= r on the other end, which supports H.264 as well. It is possible to make a = gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP signaling negotiation, implement DTL= S/SRTP and ICE to communicate with WebRTC browser, and will forward RTP pay= load without ever decoding or re-encoding H.264 video payload. Such gateway= will scale to thousands of channels per server and will only introduce del= ay in the range of single milliseconds. This gateway does not need any spec= ial hardware and will not even need to implement the video codec. I would s= ay that complexity of such gateway is not that different from the complexit= y of a TURN server. The costs of operating such gateway are similar as well= .

    On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8= , your gateway becomes a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will nee= d to add jitter buffer, H.264 and VP8=A0=A0codec implementations, and audio= /video re-synchronization to the gateway. This gateway will require custom = DSP or it will only scale to hundreds of channels. It will introduce at lea= st tens of milliseconds of delay (due to the need for the jitter buffer and= audio/video resync). The costs of operating such gateway would be an order= of magnitude more then costs of operating a gateway that does not need to = transcode. In a lot of environments, operation costs of such gateway as wel= l as delays introduced would make it unsustainable.

    For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web= Browsers should support as many codecs as possible. If anything, the resul= t of this should be that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. = The same argument actually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe web b= rowsers should support AMR-WB and G.722). This being said, I believe market= needs would define which additional codecs will be supported by the browse= rs. Selection of MTI cannot be driven just by legacy interop.
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
    =A0
    --e89a8f3bae6f0f7bd104efe257db-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 16:02:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529741AC82B for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AsfgUwbEjiLR for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A2F1A8033 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so4845390ieb.30 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=plkOqQ5M5fRZFo5HH5Ufqr+uUT+MaLgws1Vf7ezlNLU=; b=TB2H32LzASmQwz+S6Mmhp7j+U7sTwtCadxMenf5eE0lgntdGqdRABj3DKjV4fgfXB3 Rc8H7OeWa1cDO6zARFUY0cE/EWZmqRX5TCfT7wn+Fn54Z1ue/2iCmg8s44LVoz8x/gId 5RXXgb69SBUenkQDqRjWjbsj0PtpT1K5Vgv4QDwz9T1zjYN5+PfehSeDh7EhkYyep763 pb+G5vfoJa0qpyRXt/1CrLl4YePt4u+9uuaVWkBKtYYHFWtEsqHBZ/FM1tojKZTMJDnr y3Vgc4hxfwAEkvrN+Eb+s2s7p0uXwqn7eFzogxk9vxjrpwqrKY5REqVfxYPzrX79zDtQ Fo0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmXFLZDFfKMN+JFjHLIlBpZqPpYfv9DW1BfhhyhZCHXujhG5bvji0jj2N3IjN9tizTcHWMH X-Received: by 10.50.66.208 with SMTP id h16mr22575240igt.0.1389657749429; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm21106359igc.4.2014.01.13.16.02.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:02:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D47E92.6050703@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:02:26 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Shpount References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <52D46F84.8090909@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080402070508070208090301" Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:02:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080402070508070208090301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roman, I see. So now I understand the gateway situation a bit better, but I'd like to understand more about the legacy devices at each end of the pipe. What video resolution do these legacy devices capture at, and render? Are they closed systems or general-purpose like a web browser? Do they support hardware encoding of H.264? Thanks, Gili On 13/01/2014 6:21 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc > wrote: > > Roman, > > I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument > (yet). Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking > you to transcode? > > > Let's say we have, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain > RTP/SIP and WebRTC browser on the other end, which supports H.264 as > well. It is possible to make a gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP > signaling negotiation, implement DTLS/SRTP and ICE to communicate with > WebRTC browser, and will forward RTP payload without ever decoding or > re-encoding H.264 video payload. Such gateway will scale to thousands > of channels per server and will only introduce delay in the range of > single milliseconds. This gateway does not need any special hardware > and will not even need to implement the video codec. I would say that > complexity of such gateway is not that different from the complexity > of a TURN server. The costs of operating such gateway are similar as well. > > On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8, your gateway > becomes a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will need to add > jitter buffer, H.264 and VP8 codec implementations, and audio/video > re-synchronization to the gateway. This gateway will require custom > DSP or it will only scale to hundreds of channels. It will introduce > at least tens of milliseconds of delay (due to the need for the jitter > buffer and audio/video resync). The costs of operating such gateway > would be an order of magnitude more then costs of operating a gateway > that does not need to transcode. In a lot of environments, operation > costs of such gateway as well as delays introduced would make it > unsustainable. > > For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web Browsers > should support as many codecs as possible. If anything, the result of > this should be that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. > The same argument actually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe > web browsers should support AMR-WB and G.722). This being said, I > believe market needs would define which additional codecs will be > supported by the browsers. Selection of MTI cannot be driven just by > legacy interop. > _____________ > Roman Shpount --------------080402070508070208090301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Roman,

    I see. So now I understand the gateway situation a bit better, but I'd like to understand more about the legacy devices at each end of the pipe.

    What video resolution do these legacy devices capture at, and render? Are they closed systems or general-purpose like a web browser? Do they support hardware encoding of H.264?

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 6:21 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:

    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    Roman,

    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). Who is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode?


    Let's say we have, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain RTP/SIP and WebRTC browser on the other end, which supports H.264 as well. It is possible to make a gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP signaling negotiation, implement DTLS/SRTP and ICE to communicate with WebRTC browser, and will forward RTP payload without ever decoding or re-encoding H.264 video payload. Such gateway will scale to thousands of channels per server and will only introduce delay in the range of single milliseconds. This gateway does not need any special hardware and will not even need to implement the video codec. I would say that complexity of such gateway is not that different from the complexity of a TURN server. The costs of operating such gateway are similar as well.

    On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8, your gateway becomes a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will need to add jitter buffer, H.264 and VP8  codec implementations, and audio/video re-synchronization to the gateway. This gateway will require custom DSP or it will only scale to hundreds of channels. It will introduce at least tens of milliseconds of delay (due to the need for the jitter buffer and audio/video resync). The costs of operating such gateway would be an order of magnitude more then costs of operating a gateway that does not need to transcode. In a lot of environments, operation costs of such gateway as well as delays introduced would make it unsustainable.

    For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web Browsers should support as many codecs as possible. If anything, the result of this should be that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. The same argument actually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe web browsers should support AMR-WB and G.722). This being said, I believe market needs would define which additional codecs will be supported by the browsers. Selection of MTI cannot be driven just by legacy interop.
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
     

    --------------080402070508070208090301-- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jan 13 16:22:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA841AE1D4 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:22:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEynplI5yAmV for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E7B1A8033 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0E0MGAQ006766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:22:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0E0MFta012272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:22:15 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:22:15 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: cowwoc , Roman Shpount Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPELLvWwUyX8C/RUStwt48FqSffpqDOk6AgAALWQCAABUg4A== Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:22:15 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148CF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <52D46F84.8090909@bbs.darktech.org> <52D47E92.6050703@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D47E92.6050703@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148CFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:22:35 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148CFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The legacy device is at one end of the pipe, not both. For IMS endpoints, in general they are closed systems in that a dedicated a= pplication runs the codec. However most mobile phones nowadays have all sorts of downloadable code so = they are programmable in that sense. I believe most mobiles supporting H.26= 4 have hardware support, but there are a mixture of standardised and propri= etary APIs, and they are not necessarily open to any and all applications. = I do not work for a mobile phone vendor so I cannot go further than that. I'll let the enterprise people speak as to what they have out there in term= s of phones supporting H.264. regards Keith ________________________________ From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] Sent: 14 January 2014 00:02 To: Roman Shpount Cc: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on S= traw Poll replies) Roman, I see. So now I understand the gateway situation a bit better, but I'd like= to understand more about the legacy devices at each end of the pipe. What video resolution do these legacy devices capture at, and render? Are t= hey closed systems or general-purpose like a web browser? Do they support h= ardware encoding of H.264? Thanks, Gili On 13/01/2014 6:21 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc > wrote: Roman, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). W= ho is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode? Let's say we have, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain RTP/SIP a= nd WebRTC browser on the other end, which supports H.264 as well. It is pos= sible to make a gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP signaling negotiatio= n, implement DTLS/SRTP and ICE to communicate with WebRTC browser, and will= forward RTP payload without ever decoding or re-encoding H.264 video paylo= ad. Such gateway will scale to thousands of channels per server and will on= ly introduce delay in the range of single milliseconds. This gateway does n= ot need any special hardware and will not even need to implement the video = codec. I would say that complexity of such gateway is not that different fr= om the complexity of a TURN server. The costs of operating such gateway are= similar as well. On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8, your gateway becom= es a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will need to add jitter buff= er, H.264 and VP8 codec implementations, and audio/video re-synchronizatio= n to the gateway. This gateway will require custom DSP or it will only scal= e to hundreds of channels. It will introduce at least tens of milliseconds = of delay (due to the need for the jitter buffer and audio/video resync). Th= e costs of operating such gateway would be an order of magnitude more then = costs of operating a gateway that does not need to transcode. In a lot of e= nvironments, operation costs of such gateway as well as delays introduced w= ould make it unsustainable. For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web Browsers should sup= port as many codecs as possible. If anything, the result of this should be = that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. The same argument ac= tually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe web browsers should suppo= rt AMR-WB and G.722). This being said, I believe market needs would define = which additional codecs will be supported by the browsers. Selection of MTI= cannot be driven just by legacy interop. _____________ Roman Shpount --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148CFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The legacy device is at one end o= f the pipe, not both.
     
    For IMS endpoints, in general the= y are closed systems in that a dedicated application runs the codec.
     
    However most mobile phones nowada= ys have all sorts of downloadable code so they are programmable in that sen= se. I believe most mobiles supporting H.264 have hardware support, but there are a mixture of standardised and proprie= tary APIs, and they are not necessarily open to any and all applications. I= do not work for a mobile phone vendor so I cannot go further than that.
     
    I'll let the enterprise people sp= eak as to what they have out there in terms of phones supporting H.264.
     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.dar= ktech.org]
    Sent: 14 January 2014 00:02
    To: Roman Shpount
    Cc: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comme= nt on Straw Poll replies)

    Roman,

    I see. So now I understand the gateway situation a bit better, but I'd like= to understand more about the legacy devices at each end of the pipe.

    What video resolution do these legacy devices capture at, and render? Are t= hey closed systems or general-purpose like a web browser? Do they support h= ardware encoding of H.264?

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 6:21 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:

    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    Roman,

    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand your argument (yet). W= ho is the gateway connected to that you think I'm asking you to transcode?<= br>

    Let's say we have, a legacy device which support H.264 over plain RTP/= SIP and WebRTC browser on the other end, which supports H.264 as well. It i= s possible to make a gateway that will deal with WebRTC SDP signaling negot= iation, implement DTLS/SRTP and ICE to communicate with WebRTC browser, and will forward RTP payload witho= ut ever decoding or re-encoding H.264 video payload. Such gateway will scal= e to thousands of channels per server and will only introduce delay in the = range of single milliseconds. This gateway does not need any special hardware and will not even need to imple= ment the video codec. I would say that complexity of such gateway is not th= at different from the complexity of a TURN server. The costs of operating s= uch gateway are similar as well.

    On the other hand if you need to transcode H.264 to VP8, your gateway = becomes a lot more resource hungry and complex. You will need to add jitter= buffer, H.264 and VP8  codec implementations, and audio/video re= -synchronization to the gateway. This gateway will require custom DSP or it will only scale to hundreds of channels. It = will introduce at least tens of milliseconds of delay (due to the need for = the jitter buffer and audio/video resync). The costs of operating such gate= way would be an order of magnitude more then costs of operating a gateway that does not need to transcode. In= a lot of environments, operation costs of such gateway as well as delays i= ntroduced would make it unsustainable.

    For me, all of the above is mostly an argument that Web Browsers shoul= d support as many codecs as possible. If anything, the result of this shoul= d be that web browsers should support H.264, VP8 and H.263. The same argume= nt actually applies to audio codecs as well (I believe web browsers should support AMR-WB and G.722). This bei= ng said, I believe market needs would define which additional codecs will b= e supported by the browsers. Selection of MTI cannot be driven just by lega= cy interop.
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
     

    --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148CFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_-- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jan 13 16:25:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943E91AE1D4 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:25:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jW5p4qIM3sN5 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F39D1A8033 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0E0PeaZ007454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:25:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0E0Peb4013434 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:25:40 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:25:40 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPELR8BYBQxz1a/EydoeaOltD+SJqDW/bw Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:25:39 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:25:57 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I missed the bit of the equation about open APIs. I would certainly like an= y hardware support of codecs to be open APIs, but I do not consider that re= levant for this discussion. What is relevant is that we have an endpoint su= pporting a telecommunications service with a video media using an H.264 cod= ec, and wish to use that device to communicate with a webrtc endpoint, via = some sort of interworking box. Because of the identified issues of transcod= ing we do not want that box to have to transcode every video media. These legacy endpoints are not new products. It is every mobile phone out t= here that claims to support video communication. regards Keith ________________________________ From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] Sent: 13 January 2014 23:09 To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on S= traw Poll replies) On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression always equates = to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero. So how is H.264 market share at all relevant to the MTI discussion? If you = have to release a new product anyway, you can make it run whatever codec yo= u want. But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with the appli= cation combined with an interworking box, they can be easily communicated w= ith by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video tran= scoder in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, parti= cularly where we need to lipsync voice. Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can "encode/decode H.= 264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so"? If so, please provi= de concrete examples. To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just trying to= understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI for interoperabil= ity with the "millions of existing devices out there". That's the argument = I've been hearing over and over again, which I'm trying to understand. For scenarios see ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and anne= x H and ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/23701.htm If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems that don= 't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back and forth between= IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then your argument is actually = that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake of *gateways*, not legacy devices. = Meaning, your legacy devices will never run WebRTC but you want the gateway= s to convert from IMS to WebRTC without having to transcode the video. Is t= hat correct? What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny screens? = Or are we talking about something more elaborate? Thanks, Gili regards Keith ________________________________ From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49 To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw= Poll replies) Keith, Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTC= WEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get thi= s argument. As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so= , * Understand SDP, * Are WebRTC compliant is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin s= upporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. Gili On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. It is not about preserving our existing equipment. It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we= want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the= entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort = to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has = a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which ca= n be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call p= ath using that delay portion. Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy = systems than there are using RTCWEB. Keith ________________________________ From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC t= o interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only= ? I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo= ok backwards and not forwards. I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn= ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with= a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit= surprised that your are part of them. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either: * Use H.261, or * Transcode, or * Drop Video By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to ei= ther transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as = compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. Yo= u don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= . Gili --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I missed the bit of the equation = about open APIs. I would certainly like any hardware support of codecs to b= e open APIs, but I do not consider that relevant for this discussion. What is relevant is that we have an endpoint supporti= ng a telecommunications service with a video media using an H.264 codec, an= d wish to use that device to communicate with a webrtc endpoint, via some s= ort of interworking box. Because of the identified issues of transcoding we do not want that box to have to= transcode every video media.
     
    These legacy endpoints are not ne= w products. It is every mobile phone out there that claims to support video= communication.
     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.dar= ktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 23:09
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comme= nt on Straw Poll replies)

    On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) = wrote:
    Well given that the last element = of your Boolean expression always equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is = zero.

    So how is H.2= 64 market share at all relevant to the MTI discussion? If you have to relea= se a new product anyway, you can make it run whatever codec you want.
    But the first two elements equate= to significant numbers and with the application combined with an interwork= ing box, they can be easily communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video transco= der in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, particul= arly where we need to lipsync voice.

    Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can "encode/deco= de H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so"? If so, pl= ease provide concrete examples.

    To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just trying to= understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI for interoperabil= ity with the "millions of existing devices out there". That's the= argument I've been hearing over and over again, which I'm trying to understand.

    &= nbsp;
    For scenarios see
    &= nbsp;
    ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/h= tml-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and annex H
    &= nbsp;
    and
    &= nbsp;

    If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems that don= 't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back and forth between= IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then your argument is actually = that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake of *gateways*, not legacy devices. Meaning, your legacy devices will = never run WebRTC but you want the gateways to convert from IMS to WebRTC wi= thout having to transcode the video. Is that correct?

    What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny screens? = Or are we talking about something more elaborate?

    Thanks,
    Gili

    &= nbsp;
    regards
    &= nbsp;
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.dar= ktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment o= n Straw Poll replies)

    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTC= WEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get thi= s argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, =
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin s= upporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is import= ant to some of us.
    &= nbsp;
    It is not about preserving our ex= isting equipment.
    &= nbsp;
    It is about the fact the communic= ation involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communicati= on between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transc= oding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost th= at someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be cate= red for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
    &= nbsp;
    Currently there are a considerabl= e number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCW= EB.
    &= nbsp;
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to re=
strict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol=
d features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they lo=
ok backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive wa=
y forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old techn=
ologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with=
 a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" featur=
es, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf=
.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *j= ust* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on bo= th end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to= either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple = as compiling https:= //github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need= hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to= the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythin= g else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existi= ng* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I d= on't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking i= t has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free= .

    Gili


    --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DFFR712WXCHMBA11zeu_-- From silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com Mon Jan 13 17:17:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44211AE1AB for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3hUFF9SL-FEE for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x234.google.com (mail-oa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F851ADFAE for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id o6so8893256oag.39 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=bXdXxn5ZDwd/5ZgVMKqAJ0jLsEdcZuuCX0dGY8c1Lhw=; b=tuJtZpxfavzUM284b5tDY/JEfIy4s0wVnGlCwPFnhf9QoIpAqcwRUreLP/YGMw5rTN iX4/9WlBZdXDbgGZbAYuTYvvsICArCTHegzNII6WvuiDODzUrPcPzdn1BufACVI+dvAV 0Jq0vzoEq3LRPkE8k73Z8NZvb4T7Xe/FN+Kf1L5U06LqlVg13awyk3hn7lgKEkKptsik F7FjqHJergHx/fEQvfg5ypq5XIYLExde+kde+FItNu7clVCkC02X/1SdETrpEKxtYXV1 6r5pTGiPuLNLyjWqx0Pjgx3C30eCFszXNWtNNX/IgxKfBpFBnmUDwVVFZjokK2tBuZmr +Erg== X-Received: by 10.182.129.201 with SMTP id ny9mr23366502obb.0.1389662241084; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.68.106 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:17:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> From: Silvia Pfeiffer Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:17:01 +1100 Message-ID: To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:17:34 -0000 For all those concerns, please remember that Zingaya showcased a H.264 and VP8 real-time video conversion without transcoding. That to me shows that we may all be over-estimating the complexity involved in transcoding between H.264 and VP8. Cheers, Silvia. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we > want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the > entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to > transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a > cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can > be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path > using that delay portion. > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy > systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > Keith > > ________________________________ > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to > interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they > look backwards and not forwards. > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old > technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live > with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit > surprised that your are part of them. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using > *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on > both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > Use H.261, or > Transcode, or > Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to > either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as > compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You > don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to > the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything > else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when > breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free. > > Gili > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From roman@telurix.com Mon Jan 13 17:40:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B751ADFC3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:40:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYw6pOg2e-j5 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A648A1A8028 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id x13so7276175wgg.15 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sJD5yN4LJv7X5+BN0pycjMY7PyT9fcVTqYNvbvoX66I=; b=XIiN/pq0EZK8PJswCLuRJRgxIr62o9px+7WD1dRNpG+Z4Jp14hOIRLwzvO9uyzEgwK 6cQ4xGA1C8fu1fyJsi16MZZ+zp06XdEzi6dWGtc5M0+jFXU3WzaHBxlZ1w2wjhyCGdbg VsTqMhjV1jeItsuBq8BHL0tBtZMUeXsnKsYRGak9qd/1Uchi+d2BzwxNI27XqhsdlyJT J+ykANO7oWspPEgJ0OtJLC00hJf5gPjrPVf1pZdgc5Ae52cJqS+LFMU4ps0uILiNUPRV abieLYimIX1LSeI5y3tY7HF8ZfKwgNNXl75hW/KVf3UHctoIrKfCqXMbxJLId9tSp28h Y3Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmQNt2IDeAiGXxkYboTQw3EnFjfjaD3SZbuE5Xvk2PTpdgUJFu1LNBMuJYqwUD+4cdrUkJH X-Received: by 10.180.207.239 with SMTP id lz15mr288645wic.28.1389663592845; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f172.google.com (mail-we0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pl7sm12995067wjc.16.2014.01.13.17.39.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f172.google.com with SMTP id q58so3079994wes.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.185.205 with SMTP id fe13mr24724735wjc.23.1389663591621; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.217.88.133 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:39:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:39:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Silvia Pfeiffer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6bc9abc67de04efe444fe Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:40:06 -0000 --047d7bd6bc9abc67de04efe444fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > For all those concerns, please remember that Zingaya showcased a H.264 > and VP8 real-time video conversion without transcoding. That to me > shows that we may all be over-estimating the complexity involved in > transcoding between H.264 and VP8. > > First of all this was an early prototype in one direction only. Second, you can probably get about 30% CPU reduction this way. Lastly you ca run into some additional IPR on top of VP8 and H.264. After implementing all of this you would still need to deal with transcoding and audio/video synchronization same delay. Bottom line, you should avoid transcoding if you can. Once again, all of this being said I would still question if legacy interop should be used as the only criteria for MTI codec selection. You would want to support as many codecs as possible to avoid transcoding, but which one should be selected as MTI is affected by many other factors. Once again, I hope that major browsers will support both H.264 and VP8. _____________ Roman Shpount --047d7bd6bc9abc67de04efe444fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    = On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@= gmail.com> wrote:
    For all those concerns, please remember that Zingaya showc= ased a H.264
    and VP8 real-time video conversion without transcoding. That to me
    shows that we may all be over-estimating the complexity involved in
    transcoding between H.264 and VP8.


    First of all this was an early prototy= pe in one direction only. Second, you can probably get about 30% CPU reduct= ion this way. Lastly you ca run into some additional IPR on top of VP8 and = H.264. After implementing all of this you would still need to deal with tra= nscoding and audio/video synchronization same delay. Bottom line, you shoul= d avoid transcoding if you can.

    Once again, all of this being said I would still questi= on if legacy interop should be used as the only criteria for MTI codec sele= ction. You would want to support as many codecs as possible to avoid transc= oding, but which one should be selected as MTI is affected by many other fa= ctors. Once again, I hope that major browsers will support both H.264 and V= P8.
    _____________
    Roman Shpount
    =A0
    --047d7bd6bc9abc67de04efe444fe-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Mon Jan 13 18:13:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E451AE1B0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNMBUAwmiAiR for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f169.google.com (mail-ig0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6F51ADFE4 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f169.google.com with SMTP id uq10so3482173igb.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:22 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=mTe8LQdr2ZqNM/kPiU+PZXJjv1mWGN12zVX5rmyHCPw=; b=lnmqZAH4E2x9iPid4GiBXiybK0nntIDLaL1GeV9iaD6P0AapivjRpjH9V/rWX0lTPY AaAv69odKM3gehJYA8HBVowmMmeehEdgZpC5d16uoCMCpXQck6HLKru6ZyAEwRkZf428 asNTuS9eMKS8rI80vwp+A8PAgSB6ZeAPPEgg5OjDItq4V8HktDTPqloJJF/E2eI1TT9g 8H8oFd5C3hYZLvv0Csdu6RshWMG0UBw+CKPc5Ib70aRKib4bfpD3zc5KPnuceeur7RPE FxZwupMo+XBeywehXAbV7pKPTZ3qlUIWoZj7d7bkSwNQiT8Lc9T6Kx2sLXturnO83WH+ Ajyw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk3kfSbTs9BmNlisuUtWjsmjivsZ2ujOqXBM3kVlWmWKJgk/HcVUdyJEiq9t0wrF8UwPmKQ X-Received: by 10.50.29.65 with SMTP id i1mr361923igh.39.1389665602683; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qb4sm21660168igb.7.2014.01.13.18.13.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:13:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:13:18 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040107060206080605030905" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:13:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040107060206080605030905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is relevant precisely because of what is happening on iOS. If the manufacturer does not bake WebRTC into the operating system (no one has, nor do I see any indication that anyone will) then you require a public API in order to implement WebRTC in user space. Baring that, you are forced to use software codecs (with all the associated limitations). To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across which exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only supports hardware encoding for VP8. Until we see the same happen for H.264, it is hard to argue that legacy H.264 devices are candidates for running WebRTC natively. The only use-case that makes sense is the scenario you mentioned, in which a non-WebRTC device is talking to WebRTC device using a translating gateway. Which brings up the question: how are those legacy devices encoding video if they don't have public APIs for doing so? Are they using a software codec? > The legacy device is at one end of the pipe, not both. > For IMS endpoints, in general they are closed systems in that a > dedicated application runs the codec. > However most mobile phones nowadays have all sorts of downloadable > code so they are programmable in that sense. I believe most mobiles > supporting H.264 have hardware support, but there are a mixture of > standardised and proprietary APIs, and they are not necessarily open > to any and all applications. I do not work for a mobile phone vendor > so I cannot go further than that. > I'll let the enterprise people speak as to what they have out there in > terms of phones supporting H.264. We need to get real specific here. What kind of capture/rendering resolution do the closed systems support? For example, most video phones I've seen have a tiny screen and you're unlikely to see the difference between a H.261 and H.264 feed. Also, at these resolutions transcoding is probably very cheap. Next, how many of them would realistically benefit from WebRTC support? My wife's company has video phones. Not only are they terribly expensive (so most companies don't have them) but also no one really uses the video feature. The screens are too small to make it useful and most people prefer to stick to voice-only conversations. At the end of the day, I think we're really talking about a single use-case here: you want internet callers (WebRTC) to be able to jump into a proprietary call bridge that uses H.264 under the hood. That's it, that's all. I can't picture the opposite happening (proprietary system calling into internet) for usability reasons (having to stick a web browser into what should be a simple system). Nor can I see this being used for proprietary systems with tiny screens (like video phones). So, how many such deployments really exist? That is, how many proprietary video conferencing deployments are there in total? And how many of them plan to allow incoming calls from WebRTC callers? Whatever that number is, it's a subset of total H.264 deployments. I have no doubt that it is an important use-case, but we need specific numbers to put it into perspective. Say for a moment that these systems use H.264, and internet callers use VP8. The question is how often you get an incoming call from the internet. Perhaps transcoding would only occur in 5% of the cases. Another question is whether the gateways already do transcoding to combine multiple H.264 feeds into smaller resolution or combined video feeds in order to reduce bandwidth usage. Anyway, those are just some of the questions that come to mind... Gili On 13/01/2014 7:25 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > I missed the bit of the equation about open APIs. I would certainly > like any hardware support of codecs to be open APIs, but I do not > consider that relevant for this discussion. What is relevant is that > we have an endpoint supporting a telecommunications service with a > video media using an H.264 codec, and wish to use that device to > communicate with a webrtc endpoint, via some sort of interworking box. > Because of the identified issues of transcoding we do not want that > box to have to transcode every video media. > These legacy endpoints are not new products. It is every mobile phone > out there that claims to support video communication. > regards > Keith > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > *Sent:* 13 January 2014 23:09 > *To:* DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] > Comment on Straw Poll replies) > > On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >> Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression >> always equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero. > > So how is H.264 market share at all relevant to the MTI > discussion? If you have to release a new product anyway, you can > make it run whatever codec you want. > >> But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with >> the application combined with an interworking box, they can be >> easily communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have >> to always include a video transcoder in that box, we will all the >> disadvantages already identified, particularly where we need to >> lipsync voice. > > Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can > "encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for > doing so"? If so, please provide concrete examples. > > To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just > trying to understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI > for interoperability with the "millions of existing devices out > there". That's the argument I've been hearing over and over again, > which I'm trying to understand. > >> For scenarios see >> ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section >> 11 and annex H >> and >> ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/23701.htm > > If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems > that don't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back > and forth between IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then > your argument is actually that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake > of *gateways*, not legacy devices. Meaning, your legacy devices > will never run WebRTC but you want the gateways to convert from > IMS to WebRTC without having to transcode the video. Is that correct? > > What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny > screens? Or are we talking about something more elaborate? > > Thanks, > Gili > >> regards >> Keith >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] >> *Sent:* 13 January 2014 17:49 >> *To:* DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] >> Comment on Straw Poll replies) >> >> Keith, >> >> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do >> you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video >> equipment? I just don't get this argument. >> >> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: >> >> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs >> for doing so, >> * Understand SDP, >> * Are WebRTC compliant >> >> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will >> magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* >> products to get released. >> >> Gili >> >> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more >>> parties, and we want to enable video communication between >>> RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that >>> are capable of video, without having to resort to >>> transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, >>> but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it >>> introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the >>> possibility of someone else in the call path using that >>> delay portion. >>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those >>> users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >>> Keith >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *cowwoc >>> *Sent:* 10 January 2014 16:39 >>> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >>> >>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? >>>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. >>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >>>> >>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >>> >>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be >>> stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is >>> that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, >>> great. If not, you can either: >>> >>> * Use H.261, or >>> * Transcode, or >>> * Drop Video >>> >>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option >>> and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The >>> cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling >>> https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your >>> device. You don't need hardware support because it's so >>> computationally cheap. >>> >>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, >>> per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of >>> people who vote for it and against everything else use >>> "legacy interoperability" as argument. >>> >>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was >>> to support *existing* devices then we would use >>> *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think >>> maintaining backwards compatibility is important when >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, >>> I believe it does). >>> >>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 >>> available royalty-free. >>> >>> Gili >>> >> > --------------040107060206080605030905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    It is relevant precisely because of what is happening on iOS. If the manufacturer does not bake WebRTC into the operating system (no one has, nor do I see any indication that anyone will) then you require a public API in order to implement WebRTC in user space. Baring that, you are forced to use software codecs (with all the associated limitations).

    To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across which exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only supports hardware encoding for VP8. Until we see the same happen for H.264, it is hard to argue that legacy H.264 devices are candidates for running WebRTC natively. The only use-case that makes sense is the scenario you mentioned, in which a non-WebRTC device is talking to WebRTC device using a translating gateway.

    Which brings up the question: how are those legacy devices encoding video if they don't have public APIs for doing so? Are they using a software codec?

    The legacy device is at one end of the pipe, not both.
     
    For IMS endpoints, in general they are closed systems in that a dedicated application runs the codec.
     
    However most mobile phones nowadays have all sorts of downloadable code so they are programmable in that sense. I believe most mobiles supporting H.264 have hardware support, but there are a mixture of standardised and proprietary APIs, and they are not necessarily open to any and all applications. I do not work for a mobile phone vendor so I cannot go further than that.
     
    I'll let the enterprise people speak as to what they have out there in terms of phones supporting H.264.

    We need to get real specific here. What kind of capture/rendering resolution do the closed systems support? For example, most video phones I've seen have a tiny screen and you're unlikely to see the difference between a H.261 and H.264 feed. Also, at these resolutions transcoding is probably very cheap. Next, how many of them would realistically benefit from WebRTC support? My wife's company has video phones. Not only are they terribly expensive (so most companies don't have them) but also no one really uses the video feature. The screens are too small to make it useful and most people prefer to stick to voice-only conversations.

    At the end of the day, I think we're really talking about a single use-case here: you want internet callers (WebRTC) to be able to jump into a proprietary call bridge that uses H.264 under the hood. That's it, that's all. I can't picture the opposite happening (proprietary system calling into internet) for usability reasons (having to stick a web browser into what should be a simple system). Nor can I see this being used for proprietary systems with tiny screens (like video phones).

    So, how many such deployments really exist? That is, how many proprietary video conferencing deployments are there in total? And how many of them plan to allow incoming calls from WebRTC callers? Whatever that number is, it's a subset of total H.264 deployments. I have no doubt that it is an important use-case, but we need specific numbers to put it into perspective.

    Say for a moment that these systems use H.264, and internet callers use VP8. The question is how often you get an incoming call from the internet. Perhaps transcoding would only occur in 5% of the cases. Another question is whether the gateways already do transcoding to combine multiple H.264 feeds into smaller resolution or combined video feeds in order to reduce bandwidth usage.

    Anyway, those are just some of the questions that come to mind...

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 7:25 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    I missed the bit of the equation about open APIs. I would certainly like any hardware support of codecs to be open APIs, but I do not consider that relevant for this discussion. What is relevant is that we have an endpoint supporting a telecommunications service with a video media using an H.264 codec, and wish to use that device to communicate with a webrtc endpoint, via some sort of interworking box. Because of the identified issues of transcoding we do not want that box to have to transcode every video media.
     
    These legacy endpoints are not new products. It is every mobile phone out there that claims to support video communication.
     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 23:09
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies)

    On 13/01/2014 2:28 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Well given that the last element of your Boolean expression always equates to FALSE, yes I agree that it is zero.

    So how is H.264 market share at all relevant to the MTI discussion? If you have to release a new product anyway, you can make it run whatever codec you want.
    But the first two elements equate to significant numbers and with the application combined with an interworking box, they can be easily communicated with by a RTCWEB endpoint. However if we have to always include a video transcoder in that box, we will all the disadvantages already identified, particularly where we need to lipsync voice.

    Slow down there. Do you have millions of devices that can "encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so"? If so, please provide concrete examples.

    To be clear, I'm as much against transcoding as you are. I'm just trying to understand the argument that we must choose H.264 as MTI for interoperability with the "millions of existing devices out there". That's the argument I've been hearing over and over again, which I'm trying to understand.

     
    For scenarios see
     
    ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/22228.htm release 12 section 11 and annex H
     
    and
     

    If I understood correctly, you're trying to connect legacy systems that don't speak WebRTC through some gateway that translates back and forth between IMS and WebRTC. Assuming this is the case, then your argument is actually that you want H.264 as MTI for the sake of *gateways*, not legacy devices. Meaning, your legacy devices will never run WebRTC but you want the gateways to convert from IMS to WebRTC without having to transcode the video. Is that correct?

    What kind of devices are we talking about? Video phones with tiny screens? Or are we talking about something more elaborate?

    Thanks,
    Gili

     
    regards
     
    Keith

    From: cowwoc [mailto:cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    Sent: 13 January 2014 17:49
    To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies)

    Keith,

    Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.

    As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    • Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    • Understand SDP,
    • Are WebRTC compliant
    is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
     
    It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
     
    It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
     
    Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
     
    Keith

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies

    On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:

    Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.

    I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.

However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
(note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)

    This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    • Use H.261, or
    • Transcode, or
    • Drop Video

    By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.

    And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.

    WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).

    Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.

    Gili



    --------------040107060206080605030905-- From ekr@rtfm.com Mon Jan 13 20:05:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDD81ADBD1 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:05:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xHpwnMZONn5Y for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com (mail-we0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D5C1ADBCC for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w62so2215611wes.38 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:05:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ma6X0hbzKnlGj22hxHVvsc/vNN8Mp1s185CanTOCiQ8=; b=ljy8x8BvLK7bId5cndE42Ne64P/VtlCWaYsqBXP6TFaxlFdrduzx0JSGelKwM+Iz1i gMrRl9/K+deU1f3zRfsR0g9W4A5vvkMK2IgDU09auUiOl5aFYHC2kRt2C5rOfw/xcpLl T7/+tk9WunAPceYSSZeh9+MNyU9vVsUFdNZy2Cona7dmA9XxWwm0foJ3vgxQZbpvGJTw tGcPwzujW2G+eTKPWE1h15PLwDUEc9P1jHt9o5A1FHqa8o3uUVr+hht9amTSXCBiMExd KPXGi1HH3wLWW+VhimmhhPhtf/4AAt2VwvllrJgO5aKwxalDC6MTCVC1kFdTC5U2VuBE MqLw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkTleM2a/ifLwn8bJyP1m517A+9szuUpS/fHo2WZXXmjSy7rlz+92/ZZmGqxLvpnDOhQowv X-Received: by 10.194.187.101 with SMTP id fr5mr5908908wjc.76.1389672314373; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:05:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.9.67 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:04:34 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:04:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: cowwoc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:05:27 -0000 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc wrote: > To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across which > exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only > supports hardware encoding for VP8. Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That does not match my understanding. -Ekr From fluffy@iii.ca Mon Jan 13 20:28:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282C01ADBC7 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:28:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JKVmnDuVTZn for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5392E1ACCF8 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A64C22E253; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:28:12 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:28:11 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: Oscar Divorra , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives - clarification X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:28:31 -0000 On Jan 13, 2014, at 8:31 AM, OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA wrote: > 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > A. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > B. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize = them: >=20 > Similar to #6. Oscar, I assumed that your answer to #14 was "No" based on the reason. = Let me know if I took that the wrong way. Thanks, Cullen From ode@tid.es Mon Jan 13 21:56:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3D41AE1E7 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:56:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1KFa8qbR1-2 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451381ADD02 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MZD009Y2N6H9W@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:56:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 60.1A.02810.991D4D25; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:56:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MZD009XXN6H9W@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:56:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.204]) by EX10-HTCAS8-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::41c8:e965:8a6:de67%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:56:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:56:41 +0000 From: OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA In-reply-to: <8D504EA1-DDCB-4B4D-ADCC-8B73A11D82F8@tokbox.com> To: Cullen Jennings Message-id: <186514BB-21B4-47E2-99AD-BEEC86124AC8@tid.es> Content-id: <40AB12FE3645DE4A9DB1E270E44028B4@hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: ca-ES, es-ES, en-US Thread-topic: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives - clarification Thread-index: AQHPEOFGGQgVnKzfVUymnu2KQ87xHZqDpoGAgAABwgA= X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7f9b8e000000afa-0e-52d4d1995769 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFe9nqDvz4pUgg58nzS3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxu7GVewF67gqVs1IbWDs4epi5OSQEDCReHewkRnCFpO4cG89 WxcjF4eQwDZGietLf7JAOD8ZJeZt6WKCcDYySryY2s4E0sIioCqxdEkTmM0moC5x4+I3FhBb WMBHYsuydWA2p4CdxOv+iWC2iICyxLkdd8HWMQv4Sdz6NJENxOYVsJT4eLiHDSJuJjH13WJG iLigxI/J94B6OYDi6hJTpuRClIhLNLfeZIGwFSWmLWoAK2cUUJH4dWsmO8QqX4m3+4+zg7SK CFhJLO7Og3hSQGLJnvNQD4tKvHz8jxXirW5GiXMNG1kmMIrPQnLFLCRXzEK4YhaSK2YhuWIB I+sqRrHipKLM9IyS3MTMnHQDI72MTL3MvNSSTYyQ2Mrcwbh8p8ohRgEORiUe3hOMV4KEWBPL iitzDzFKcDArifBWLgAK8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYFzabCKwyVokp93g1POt5nlL dF5NE5kyIfLMPYPF7P9TTaLKnrZ9mp6d4L2XkV+142b+jLkZbzbzP+k6c2F72SYnzZtXdkc8 /7TeZ9vEX7rVanf5kuJuGVlJthtNjbxnes7SrC2yU+B0693AbMbnMfNuGqXcvrD9vO5ei9Uc n+8FCZ/45jCp6KgSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgBqNNQEiwIAAA== References: <8D504EA1-DDCB-4B4D-ADCC-8B73A11D82F8@tokbox.com> Cc: "oscar@tokbox.com" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives - clarification X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:56:57 -0000 WW91IGdvdCBpdCByaWdodCwgQ3VsbGVuLg0KVGhhbmtzIQ0KDQpPc2Nhcg0KDQoNCj4+IE9uIDEz LzAxLzIwMTQsIGF0IDIwLjI4LCBDdWxsZW4gSmVubmluZ3MgPGZsdWZmeUBpaWkuY2E+IHdyb3Rl Og0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pj4gT24gSmFuIDEzLCAyMDE0LCBhdCA4OjMxIEFNLCBPU0NBUiBESVZPUlJB IEVTQ09EQSA8b2RlQHRpZC5lcz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4NCj4+PiAxNC4gQWxsIGVudGl0aWVzIE1V U1QgaW1wbGVtZW50IGF0IGxlYXN0IHR3byBvZiB7VlA4LCBILjI2NCwgVGhlb3JhfQ0KPj4+IEEu IEFyZSB5b3UgaW4gZmF2b3Igb2YgdGhpcyBvcHRpb24gW1llcy9Oby9BY2NlcHRhYmxlXToNCj4+ PiBCLiBEbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhbnkgb2JqZWN0aW9ucyB0byB0aGlzIG9wdGlvbiwgaWYgc28gcGxl YXNlIHN1bW1hcml6ZSB0aGVtOg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gU2ltaWxhciB0byAjNi4NCj4+DQo+PiBPc2Nh ciwgSSBhc3N1bWVkIHRoYXQgeW91ciBhbnN3ZXIgdG8gIzE0IHdhcyAiTm8iIGJhc2VkIG9uIHRo ZSByZWFzb24uICBMZXQgbWUga25vdyBpZiBJIHRvb2sgdGhhdCB0aGUgd3Jvbmcgd2F5LiBUaGFu a3MsIEN1bGxlbg0KPj4NCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCg0KRXN0 ZSBtZW5zYWplIHNlIGRpcmlnZSBleGNsdXNpdmFtZW50ZSBhIHN1IGRlc3RpbmF0YXJpby4gUHVl ZGUgY29uc3VsdGFyIG51ZXN0cmEgcG9sw610aWNhIGRlIGVudsOtbyB5IHJlY2VwY2nDs24gZGUg Y29ycmVvIGVsZWN0csOzbmljbyBlbiBlbCBlbmxhY2Ugc2l0dWFkbyBtw6FzIGFiYWpvLg0KVGhp cyBtZXNzYWdlIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIGV4Y2x1c2l2ZWx5IGZvciBpdHMgYWRkcmVzc2VlLiBXZSBv bmx5IHNlbmQgYW5kIHJlY2VpdmUgZW1haWwgb24gdGhlIGJhc2lzIG9mIHRoZSB0ZXJtcyBzZXQg b3V0IGF0Og0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy50aWQuZXMvRVMvUEFHSU5BUy9kaXNjbGFpbWVyLmFzcHgNCg== From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Mon Jan 13 23:51:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F881AE1F2 for ; 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Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:51:23 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: cowwoc , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPEIfEuw3Y2G/XhUWXgF5ftFPQD5qC8uGhgABAwICAAKUvsA== Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 07:51:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW71mytBBhP/iFucufmf3eJp41lG i7X/2tkdmD1an+1l9XgyYTq7x5IlP5kCmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mt5NXcdccEi9ovnVIrYG xi3yXYycHBICJhJdT9czQdhiEhfurWfrYuTiEBI4xChxZc9fZghnCaPEgmW32LsYOTjYBCwk uv9pg8RFBFoYJX59v8YC0i0sEC+x9/IcVhBbRCBBYn3nYTYI20mibed1dhCbRUBV4tH6t2A1 vAK+EkcefWeFWHCZWeLR3n1gCU4BA4mj6/oYQWxGoJO+n1oDdh6zgLjErSfzoU4VkFiy5zwz hC0q8fLxP1aQ4yQEFCWW98tBlOtILNj9iQ3C1pZYtvA1M8ReQYmTM5+wTGAUnYVk6iwkLbOQ tMxC0rKAkWUVI3tuYmZOernRJkZghBzc8lt1B+OdcyKHGKU5WJTEeT+8dQ4SEkhPLEnNTk0t SC2KLyrNSS0+xMjEwSnVwFh8ZWbN8/ocV5u/tRtTmXfW3E5P70uOyfaeuPl4+8u8ulDz7lsl qftvLXh7bqp7hWt3VF+azfnNxUtY6gTEls7YcSv83M05MfND736dkcuVdPJ28oQjSd/PBMr+ E9L4leXsqJYnErUm7wHT443Nrv/fNB58zbngeE5ysh9v+ZO7cxluy2qntiqxFGckGmoxFxUn AgDShkoJXgIAAA== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 07:51:38 -0000 Hi, >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do ev= erything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the= MTI discussion. I don't agree. >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will o= ften be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). = But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI im= plies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain = what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo h= im. But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS= SIP networks. Regards, Christer > ________________________________________ > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc=20 > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on=20 > Straw Poll replies) > > Keith, > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect R= TCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get t= his argument. > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing= so, > * Understand SDP, > * Are WebRTC compliant > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin= supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > Gili > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and = we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of t= he entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resor= t to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it ha= s a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which = can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call= path using that delay portion. > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legac= y systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > Keith > > ________________________________ > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC= to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features on= ly? > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they = look backwards and not forwards. > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old tec= hnologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live wi= th a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little b= it surprised that your are part of them. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using = *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on = both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > * Use H.261, or > * Transcode, or > * Drop Video > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to = either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple a= s compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. = You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather = to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everyth= ing else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *exis= ting* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I= don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking= it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-fr= ee. > > Gili > From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 14 00:32:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA5C1AE01D for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:32:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t_p7SBLnxHTN for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429A41ACCE9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:32:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7f228e000003e6c-2d-52d4f60a4050 Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw7.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 33.5D.15980.A06F4D25; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:32:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:32:10 +0100 Message-ID: <52D4F5F8.7010801@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:31:52 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjS7XtytBBq/mWFms/dfO7sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujPNPV7IWLHapOLvhGGMDY4NBFyMnh4SAiUTfi4tsELaYxIV7 64FsLg4hgUOMErPf32aFcJYzSrzc+I8ZpIpXQFui99UMRhCbRUBVonHHIRYQm03AQuLmj0aw SaICwRK3pj1gh6gXlDg58wlYjYiAusTlhxeA4hwcwgLGEq/7C0HCQgIBEt+2LWMBCXMKBEos XhUFYkoIiEv0NAaBVDALGEgcWTSHFcKWl2jeOpsZolNboqGpg3UCo+AsJLtmIWmZhaRlASPz Kkb23MTMnPRy802MwNA7uOW3wQ7GTffFDjFKc7AoifN+eOscJCSQnliSmp2aWpBaFF9UmpNa fIiRiYNTqoFRM8vi2JPAqDmBW9WXnw/e25tecn/RAfnsrsknp5lGRXzYXGaSterDzyvyvtZN sn7qaR3T61L3cux90lRfKS+zs3970/6sfWFf+GUb7qjWRSx6KHH7yY/fctfvrdd5bVa87rDY nkcPXV7qyxoW3zlQ76FSzWXzSFrkU5Z84dTJen8K/3E7Lo5UYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAQIqf3gsC AAA= Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:32:31 -0000 WG, To be explicit, The Straw Poll has ended! Thanks for participating, we have received 100 answers to my count at the time of writing this. I think it has helped us all provides the different views, and what different participants considers important. We hope to be able to provide the chair's summary of the poll, we also intended to provide our tabulation of the straw poll data. All hopefully by the end of the week. Cheers Magnus Westerlund WG chair On 2013-12-09 18:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > Dear WG, > > > This is the email announcing the straw poll across the video codec > alternatives proposed to the WG. If you haven’t read the “Next Steps in > Video Codec Selection Process” > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10448.html)then > please do that before you continue to read. > > > The straw poll’s purpose is to make it clear to the WG which of the > alternatives that are favored or disfavored and what objections you > have, if any, against a particular alternative. The WG chairs will use > the information from this straw poll to identify an alternative to put > as a single consensus question to the group. Thus, everyone that has an > opinion on at least one alternative should answer this poll. Provide > your poll input by replying to this email to the WG mailing list. The > poll will run until the end of the 12th of January 2014. > > > As can be seen below, the poll lists the alternative that have proposed > to the WG. For each alternative two questions are listed. > > > The first question is “Are you in favor of this option > [Yes/No/Acceptable]:”. These three levels allow you to indicate that > you: Yes= I would be fine with the WG choosing this option. No = I > really don’t favor this, and it should not be picked. Acceptable = I can > live with this option but I prefer something else to be picked. > > > The second question is “Do you have any objections to this option, if so > please explain it:” If you have any objection at a minimum indicate it > with a “Yes”. Please also add a short (1-sentence) summary of each of > the objections you believe applies. (If you wish to provide a longer > explanation, please do so in a separate thread). If you have no > objection, leave that question blank. > > > Please provide input on as many of the alternatives as you like and feel > comfortable to do. The more inputs, the more well informed decision the > WG chairs can take when identifying the option to be brought forward for > consensus. Any alternative that you chose to leave blank, will simply be > considered as one without any input from you. > > > WG participants, please do not comment on anyone’s input in this thread! > If you want to comment, then create a separate thread and change the > subject line to something else. Otherwise you are making life for the > chairs very difficult to track the results of this straw poll. > > > If discussion causes you to update your position, please feel free to > send an update via email on the straw poll thread prior to the closing date. > > > > 1. > > All entities MUST support H.264 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 2. > > All entities MUST support VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 3. > > All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 4. > > Browsers MUST support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST > support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 5. > > All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 6. > > All entities MUST support H.261 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 7. > > There is no MTI video codec > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 8. > > All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at > least one of H.264 and VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 9. > > All entities MUST support Theora > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 10. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 11. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 12. > > All entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and > MUST support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 13. > > All entities MUST support H.263 > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 14. > > All entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, Theora} > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 15. > > All entities MUST support decoding using Theora. > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > 16. > > All entities MUST support Motion JPEG > > 1. > > Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: > > 2. > > Do you have any objections to this option, if so please > summarize them: > > > > H.264 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burman-rtcweb-h264-proposal/ > > > VP8 is a reference to the proposal in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-alvestrand-rtcweb-vp8/ > > > Theora is a reference to Xiph.org Theora Specification from March 16, > 2011 (http://www.xiph.org/theora/doc/Theora_I_spec.pdf) > > > H.263 is a reference to profile 0 level 70 defined in annex X of ITU-T > rec H.263 (http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/) > > > H.261 is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4587 > > > Motion JPEG is a reference to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2435 > > > > Thanks, > > > The Chairs > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com Tue Jan 14 01:53:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB43F1AE085 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:53:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7aKCLyYGifeu for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-sa02.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.1.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AD51AE084 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.61]) by mgw-sa02.nokia.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id s0E9nL80018911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:49:21 +0200 Received: from 008-AM1MPN1-043.mgdnok.nokia.com ([169.254.3.242]) by 008-AM1MMR1-006.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.61]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.002; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:49:21 +0000 From: To: , , , Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPEIfG7yjVgfprskOerTZOb/NfK5qC9usAgABNeYCAAJVhAIAAF0Tw Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:49:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tituslabs-classifications-30: TLPropertyRoot=Nokia;Confidentiality=Nokia Internal Use Only; x-titus-version: 3.5.9.3 x-headerinfofordlp: x-tituslabs-classificationhash-30: VgNFIFU9Hx+/nZJb9Kg7IiCfJJwdmWo2tRYRNl6x0sZSACnLZIftZT9Kcs5v9H9JKKjiPGhiB6f51dbsATVUkfdrP1rCHZRENBUpd9jkFMPR0PVFMGTnqG2keyGTTXwZBL0ZAFdFx2SBc637WeA62y+G63DDd+owlXHluR6RkM7R3rl76CLMyiDvd6q7BFdyfk6w1xaVS+5s1Gexg8YgL1hVcm/V2GAtsB5UDm3XakpB+T2x+kZCR1q6J/hQ/IcEbhNpUfddOwRiV8Yet6malxcWTRV8shti8niDzTxcTa8= x-originating-ip: [10.236.6.56] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:53:49 -0000 Hi, There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with= "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize th= em below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation: 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a= gateway In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of= the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing= equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations re= lated to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same= video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided= .=20 I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have brou= ght up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their vide= o codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current non-WebRT= C systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and deployment may = grow in parallel to WebRTC.=20 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW codec sup= port This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters. For = instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is cl= ear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party apps t= o use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if and whe= n WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible for the p= latform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it does matte= r what the HW can support.=20 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video related s= ervices and standards In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future) tha= t also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS video s= ervices or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-Fi to a TV s= creen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct apps/services tha= t do not interoperate with each other. It is however useful the HW, OS and = device vendor if all of them use the same video codec. That reduces cost (d= evelopment, maintenance, possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WF= A standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services = regardless of WebRTC.=20 So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to all = players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" interoperability/co= mpatibility does matter, when it comes to video codecs. How much it matters= compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc.) is up to each individ= ual or organization to valuate.=20 Regards, Markus=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer > Holmberg > Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 > To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment > on Straw Poll replies) >=20 > Hi, >=20 > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do > everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to= the > MTI discussion. >=20 > I don't agree. >=20 > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will= often > be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But= , > such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI > implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explai= n what > kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. >=20 > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo > him. >=20 > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-I= MS > SIP networks. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > ________________________________________ > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > Keith, > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect > RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't ge= t > this argument. > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doi= ng > so, > > * Understand SDP, > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically beg= in > supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > > > Gili > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, an= d > we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest > of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to= resort > to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it ha= s a cost > that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be > catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path > using that delay portion. > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using > legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > Keith > > > > ________________________________ > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, > stephane.proust@orange.com > wrote: > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict > WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old > features only? > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because the= y > look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old > technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could li= ve > with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little= bit > surprised that your are part of them. > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with usin= g *just* > H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both = end- > points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > * Use H.261, or > > * Transcode, or > > * Drop Video > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced t= o > either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple= as > compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. > You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rathe= r to > the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everythi= ng > else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important wh= en > breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does= ). > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty- > free. > > > > Gili > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 14 01:55:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76A01AE086 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:55:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJTX8VJhQ3jM for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED391AE088 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:55:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-29-52d5097222f7 Received: from ESESSHC019.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 51.69.27941.27905D25; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:54:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:54:58 +0100 Message-ID: <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:54:31 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba , Tim Panton References: , <67AD498F-4E6D-48FD-9067-B4491BE3FC16@phonefromhere.com>, <52BF083C.7050308@googlemail.com>, <7684BF01-C9F6-49F6-8B6A-A262EE3B08C0@phonefromhere.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW4R59Ugg6WTTS32L7nMbLH85QlG i7X/2tktLm6/xejA4jHt/n02j8c9Z9g8liz5yeSxZFIjWwBLFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGlp+v mQvaJSoOXTzH1MC4WLiLkZNDQsBE4tXaxawQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4wSty99J8VwlnOKPGk 9wYLSBWvgLbE/YszwGwWAVWJea/OgHWzCVhI3PzRyAZiiwoES9ya9oAdol5Q4uTMJ2D1IkDx 5U++MILYzAJeEg+/nQGrFxbwlZj0/iLUsklMErfbloMN5RSwknh94g6QzQF0nrhET2MQRK+e xJSrLVBz5CWat85mBrGFgG5raOpgncAoNAvJ6llIWmYhaVnAyLyKkaM4tTgpN93IYBMjMKwP bvltsYPx8l+bQ4zSHCxK4rwf3zoHCQmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamBca6QTK+U9 708p+/LK7J3Xy1hkGuvsFsdL5TTPd/uyu+5P+ExxT2GJLeVLszMfRxx5ulplZWGKhkNX+6mt 5o9SxW2a9i8N8O6YK7jh1+p7S1V3yHMun1Lgl79+/eWGkH1BF7q+i85JmO+rd66lf+/fCu/k 7jOidssc2x5vzj1i2KGRd/3TwflKLMUZiYZazEXFiQBBXUGaOQIAAA== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:20 -0000 Hi Bernard and Tim, (As document author) I have reviewed this issue and have the following comments regarding it. So, both VP8 and H.265 RTP Payload formats specifies how, but does not mandate support of RPSI or SLI/SPLI. To my understanding such requirement would be expressed by a user of the codec, like WebRTC. The RTP usage document has so far avoided specifying any specifics for a particular video codec and its payload format. And I would note that the solution so far allows negotiation of these features, at least as long as one accept to arrive at symmetric capabilities in send vs receive. Thus the question is in which direction you think this should be addressed: A) A generally changing the requirement on RPSI and SLI to enable its usage with all video codecs (capable of using them) in WebRTC. Raising the requirements level either to RECOMMENDED or SHALL. B) Write a draft-ietf-rtcweb-video that has a section saying: Codec Specific Requirements --------------------------- - If you implement VP8 in WebRTC also RPSI and SLI SHALL be supported. - If you implement H.265 in WebRTC also RPSI and SPLI SHALL be supported. Note that SHALL could be replaced by RECOMMENDED depending on the WGs consensus for what is appropriate here. Note that the WG can choose to do both of the above alternative (A and B) but for example use A) to raise these to RECOMMENDED and use B to mandate them for specific codecs. For the H.265 RTP Payload format and the SPLI message we might have issues with its publication not finishing, less so with VP8, but not impossible. We might have to deal with more unfinished pointers as we get closer to the publication request state. I believe that we need more input from the WG about this question. Both what an appropriate way forward for this issue is, and what requirements level people are interested in. Cheers Magnus On 2013-12-30 16:28, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Tim Panton said: > >> No - just that if you disable rtcp-fb in a VP8 session, you'll have a > poor experience - try it in a few wireless environments. > > [BA] Totally agree -- and yet the RTP usage document does not properly > account for this. > > draft-ietf-payload-vp8 Section 5 refers to the RPSI and SLI feedback > messages. > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-h265 Section 8 refers to the RPSI and (newly > defined) SPLI messages. > > And yet draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage Section 5.1.3 indicates that support > for SLI is OPTIONAL while Section 5.1.4 indicates that support for RPSI > is OPTIONAL. > > > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 14 02:15:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552611AE07B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:15:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yRCkRoCLydKy for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4BD1AE070 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-14-52d50e17c335 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B2.7B.27941.71E05D25; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:14:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:14:47 +0100 Message-ID: <52D50E05.3010604@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:14:29 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrMJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja4439Ugg48LxC3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxsa+fawFp7gqdvxfxtzA+JCji5GTQ0LAROLs1b0sELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hASOMErsO76RCcJZzihxcd1TdpAqXgFtiXN9b5hBbBYBVYnrt8+DxdkELCRu/mhk A7FFBYIlbk17AFUvKHFy5hOwDSIC6hKXH14AiwsL6EksvT4XyOYA2iwu0dMYBBJmBgpPudrC CGHLSzRvnQ22SghobUNTB+sERv5ZSKbOQtIyC0nLAkbmVYwcxanFSbnpRgabGIEBdXDLb4sd jJf/2hxilOZgURLn/fjWOUhIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QD49Q9QfKr5xw6bFB7 /nar5ayNR4vSZ9yauvu1Zr3HrHe+Cr+injE/fDx13baO/5l2h96FyGXx3g/YtyqG+a2c/Nq9 /vKbTm/RunB4jeFGc1MLL3d2pXm1V6ele2ZL2JxXy9gSaLh+nn/EU57rr1n/Tzqp/H5e8wlb h3snMjaFNcyYds1t25HbPl5KLMUZiYZazEXFiQD8Y44r9gEAAA== Subject: [rtcweb] Please review draft-ietf-rtp-usage-11 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:15:01 -0000 WG, (As document author) Please review the latest version of "Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Transport and Use of RTP" https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ This is supposed to resolve all the previous open issues except one. Now it is time for you to review and provide feedback if you think there are issues with how we resolved it, or missed other issues. We have received the question regarding SLI and RPSI from Tim, see separate email thread about this. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10844.html The remaining issue is one we will have to discuss. Although there appear to be great interest in Simulcast there appear that we will not have any specification to point at in regards to signaling and RTP usage in regards to simulcast in the time frame we intended to finish this document. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Jan 14 02:23:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D292F1AE078 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IpqwxIgK-JUe for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.alcatel.com (hoemail1.alcatel.com [192.160.6.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C3A1AE02A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 02:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by hoemail1.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0EAMpl2000115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:22:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0EAMnsx006024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:22:50 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:22:50 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Silvia Pfeiffer Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPEMZieWhlJf1Mx0iv0rI5UTUNqZqEAMZA Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:22:49 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:23:08 -0000 In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were showing, at least a= ccording to the reports I have seen. Further, apart from any processing power, the critical issue is the delay i= nvolved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that from this demonst= ration, and I suspect you do not either. Given that you must receive frames= to do the conversion, my belief is that we will still be talking both deco= de and encode delay at the conversion point of the order of 60 - 70 ms, wha= tever mechanism is used. That is a significant take from the limits specifi= ed in ITU Recommendation G.114. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: Silvia Pfeiffer [mailto:silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: 14 January 2014 01:17 > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Cc: cowwoc; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >=20 > For all those concerns, please remember that Zingaya=20 > showcased a H.264 and VP8 real-time video conversion without=20 > transcoding. That to me shows that we may all be=20 > over-estimating the complexity involved in transcoding=20 > between H.264 and VP8. >=20 > Cheers, > Silvia. >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith)=20 > wrote: > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more=20 > parties,=20 > > and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB=20 > user and the=20 > > rest of the entities in the world that are capable of=20 > video, without=20 > > having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes=20 > transcoding is=20 > > possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay=20 > for, and it=20 > > introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the=20 > > possibility of someone else in the call path using that=20 > delay portion. > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using=20 > > legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > Keith > > > > ________________________________ > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict=20 > > WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and=20 > therefore to old features only? > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because=20 > > they look backwards and not forwards. > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive=20 > way forward. > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get=20 > rid of old=20 > > technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from=20 > those who could=20 > > live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as=20 > only MTI codec. > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a=20 > > little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with=20 > > using > > *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are=20 > > available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > Use H.261, or > > Transcode, or > > Drop Video > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and=20 > are forced=20 > > to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting=20 > H.261 is as=20 > > simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and=20 > popping it on=20 > > your device. You don't need hardware support because it's=20 > so computationally cheap. > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but=20 > > rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and=20 > > against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > > *existing* devices then we would use *existing*=20 > technologies. For that=20 > > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility=20 > is important=20 > > when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this=20 > case, I believe it does). > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264=20 > available royalty-free. > > > > Gili > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > = From harald@alvestrand.no Tue Jan 14 03:06:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CC61AE09D for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:06:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9QwOqsOuWvaP for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F541AE09B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C7939EA87 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:06:13 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LnwO4pobB-ie for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:06:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:8c58:b9b1:4ca1:d881] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:8c58:b9b1:4ca1:d881]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A55539E98B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:06:12 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D51A29.1040207@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:06:17 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [rtcweb] Martin Duerst's responses (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:06:21 -0000 On 01/12/2014 12:48 PM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: > Below are my opinions. I'm using a numerical with 0.0 meaning NO and > 1.0 meaning YES, everything in between is acceptable, with various > degrees. Martin, since you used neither 0.0 nor 1.0, I'm recording all your responses as ACCEPTABLE in my spreadsheet (not the official ones). If you don't want this, you'd better give some more instructions on how to interpret them. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jan 14 03:10:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43861AE0BB for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:10:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RVZU3dWc2QyN for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65A1AE0B4 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s0EBA7c7009457; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:10:07 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5669_6b44_6d506942_7d0c_11e3_8d3e_001e6722eec2; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:10:07 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A769BF54C; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:10:07 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52D51AFA.9050909@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:09:46 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Alvestrand References: <52D280FF.5080503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <52D51A29.1040207@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <52D51A29.1040207@alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Martin Duerst's responses (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:10:34 -0000 On 2014/01/14 20:06, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 01/12/2014 12:48 PM, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote: >> Below are my opinions. I'm using a numerical with 0.0 meaning NO and >> 1.0 meaning YES, everything in between is acceptable, with various >> degrees. > > Martin, since you used neither 0.0 nor 1.0, I'm recording all your > responses as ACCEPTABLE in my spreadsheet (not the official ones). That's fine with me. Regards, Martin. > If you don't want this, you'd better give some more instructions on how > to interpret them. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ron@debian.org Tue Jan 14 03:11:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2721AE0B4 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:11:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRoDPXKk7Ulo for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:6:5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4DB1AE099 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 14 Jan 2014 21:41:19 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FFE4F8F3 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:41:18 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id N0tSFYu0FpUB for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:41:17 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 71FD54F902; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:41:17 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:41:17 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140114111117.GS3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: [rtcweb] Interoperability and freedom to implement X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:11:34 -0000 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 09:49:20AM +0000, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with > "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize them > below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation: Clarifying this is indeed useful for helping to decide what is and isn't important here, so thanks for doing this. > 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a gateway > > In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of > the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing > equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations > related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same > video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided. > > I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have > brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their > video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current > non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and > deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. I think there is a very important point about this particular class of devices that so far people have alluded to in other discussion, but that I haven't seen anyone really pin down precisely yet, except possibly in the original language of the charter. If any of these devices had actually been built using open and accessible standards for all of their required functionality, then this particular working group would have never needed to form in the first place to slave over establishing a standard that was. The needed work would have already been done and we'd all be video conferencing to our heart's content today with any of the numerous freely available implementation that would have already existed. Of all the methods of lock out used to keep them a closed shop, not the least is the strictly guarded use of only highly encumbered codecs ... So to say that this group must also provide the same degree of lock out with its mandatory codec options, in order to be interoperable with these devices, really just boils down to saying "this standard poses a grave threat to our existing monopoly on video services, and we think that it is very important that you do not do that". That would seem to be in direct opposition to the chartered aims of this group, and basically make it a complete waste of time and effort. Which still isn't to say that transcoding isn't desirable to avoid. But the onus should be on the closed devices to interoperate with the open standard should they choose to -- not to cripple the open standard and make it effectively just as closed as the things it was designed to replace. As you noted there are plenty of other inaccessible standards that people could already choose from if they want that. We certainly shouldn't be reinventing or rubber-stamping any of those here. Of all the options we might "consider for interworking with legacy VoIP equipment", sabotaging the freedom of people to implement this standard should be a clear no-brainer "thanks, but no thanks". hth, Ron From harald@alvestrand.no Tue Jan 14 03:14:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F032C1AE0B4 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMXjCno6griX for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BAF31AE090 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4032F39E9D7 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:14:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kpb8R7u6c5Gd for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:14:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:8c58:b9b1:4ca1:d881] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:8c58:b9b1:4ca1:d881]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C04239E98B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:14:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D51C28.9020907@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:14:48 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030907060800000409030309" Subject: [rtcweb] Giri's choices - interoperability (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:14:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030907060800000409030309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/12/2014 06:00 AM, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote: > > 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 > > a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO > > b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: > > Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP > IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. > I have a problem interpreting the first sentence in the objections here. If a system implements H.264, as required under this option, why would it not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony? And if it would not allow that, wouldn't that also be an objection to option 1 (H.264 only)? --------------030907060800000409030309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 01/12/2014 06:00 AM, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them:

                    Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete.

    I have a problem interpreting the first sentence in the objections here.

    If a system implements H.264, as required under this option, why would it not allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony?

    And if it would not allow that, wouldn't that also be an objection to option 1 (H.264 only)?


    --------------030907060800000409030309-- From tim@phonefromhere.com Tue Jan 14 04:36:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E351AE0BE for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:36:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6CrWrgIgzOge for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2031AE0A8 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 50070 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2014 12:36:28 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 6914 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2014 12:36:28 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA4E18A0B45; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:36:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34A5718A060D; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:36:28 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:35:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:36:43 -0000 On 14 Jan 2014, at 10:22, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) = wrote: > In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were showing, at = least according to the reports I have seen. >=20 > Further, apart from any processing power, the critical issue is the = delay involved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that from = this demonstration, and I suspect you do not either. Given that you must = receive frames to do the conversion, my belief is that we will still be = talking both decode and encode delay at the conversion point of the = order of 60 - 70 ms, whatever mechanism is used. That is a significant = take from the limits specified in ITU Recommendation G.114. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Keith >=20 My experience of the existing mass h264 deployments in the mobile space = is that they like to split the the audio and video media paths. (You'd need to do this in any gateway to these legacy = systems).=20 This means that they can get out of sync. This would be made worse by = transcoding the video leg. Although there is a counter argument that they are already unacceptable, = so 70ms won't make any difference. T.= From harald@alvestrand.no Tue Jan 14 05:52:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F381AE0D6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:52:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TR1SRlEaweMn for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FCB1ADFF8 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A768239E98B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:52:15 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fif+fGGUp81S for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:52:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:c088:2133:ab5f:e21c] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:c088:2133:ab5f:e21c]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A19339EA05 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:52:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D54113.8030904@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:52:19 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52D04781.2030504@dcrocker.net> <52D0989A.2010408@dcrocker.net> <52D0B666.5070505@bbs.darktech.org> <52D15988.8060804@dcrocker.net> <52D16047.6040306@telecomitalia.it> <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <52D17469.9010400@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:23 -0000 On 01/11/2014 05:42 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/11/2014 7:16 AM, Enrico Marocco wrote: >> On 11/01/14 15:47, Dave Crocker wrote: >>> I am curious about the claim of large-scale, existing WebRTC >>> support, given that none of this working group's drafts has yet >>> received >>> IETF approval nor been published as an RFC. >> >> Dave, unfortunately for us who spend a big chunk of our lives in, the >> IETF does not have any exclusive right over the term "WebRTC". What the >> rest of the world call "WebRTC" can be roughly defined as a media stack >> that is implemented in two of the four major desktop and mobile >> browsers. It's hard to estimate the size of the installed base, but the >> numbers floating around are in the order of 10**9. >> >> The IETF role in this as vast as controversial field is -- as it should >> be -- document running code and help the search of rough consensus to >> smooth the rough edges that prevent interoperability. Video codecs being >> one of them. > > > Enrico, > > Thanks for your response It was, unfortunately, quite helpful. > > That is, your note was helpful but the reality you describe highlights > an apparently deep and long-standing problem for the working group. > > I do see the non-IETF references to webrtc and implementations for it, > such as [1][2]. At the outset, there was a decision to use "RTCWEB" as a name for the IETF effort and "WEBRTC" as a name for the W3C effort that mirrors it. Somewhat later, the discussion arose on what we should call the whole effort (IETF, W3C and company implementations), and the consensus seemed to be to use the term "WebRTC" (note the different capitalizations). For someone who enters the group at a time long after the initial discussions, I can see why the terminology would be confusing, even when it is applied consistently (something that doesn't always happen). > (That I, as a Firefox user, have no idea how to try to use rtcweb from > my browser speaks to some packaging and usability issues, but doesn't > counter what you and the firefox documentation have said...) Once you learn to program Javascript, it is actually quite simple to use it from your browser. Simpler, in my opinion, than, for instance, using TCP through a BSD Sockets interface. The sentence "using TCP from my browser" is, of course, not particularly interesting; either it's built-in (as a substrate for what you're already doing), or it's unavailable (browsers cannot, by design, allow clients access to raw TCP sockets). > > There have been many IETF efforts that represented continuation of > existing industry efforts, with the goal of documenting and enhancing > that existing work. > > This working group's discussion record and document-development > history look very little like one of those "document existing code > and enhance the spec" efforts. > > Such efforts might have considerable controversy, but they retain a > foundation of the existing work. > > However the working group's history matches one of a /new/ effort > working on a complex topic and gaining relatively poor group > coherence. The current impasse on an MTI component looks like an > example, to me. > > Note that I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, but am noting the > disparity between that apparent reality outside the IETF, versus the > history (and present) for the IETF's rtcweb working group. That's what happens when IETF efforts take longer than implementation efforts. These things started in parallel, with the intent of arriving together. At the moment, the implementations seem to be in the lead. > If this group is documenting and building upon existing services, it > needs group agreement that is what it is doing, in which case > compatibility with that existing operational base is a fundamental > requirement. Exceptions might make sense but they need very strong > justification and massive consensus. > > If this group is using the existing work merely for input and advice > to a new effort -- that is, if the group feels to produce an > incompatible service -- then that, too, needs group consensus and the > effort needs a different name, so there is no (further) 'brand' > confusion. The group is definitely creating work that was new and incompatible to what existed at the time the group started working. If the group *at this time* chooses to crash and burn, and produce nothing, that will not make the existing implementations go away. From mandyam@quicinc.com Tue Jan 14 06:12:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FED1AE077 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:12:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uucN37x8gpT1 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sabertooth01.qualcomm.com (sabertooth01.qualcomm.com [65.197.215.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E02B1AE074 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:12:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=quicinc.com; i=@quicinc.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1389708715; x=1421244715; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=oE4RYUF7brttAaEl9hYWD9sKkSq2uHJ9y82GWHYyfv8=; b=S/ocYx/unojvAMzvnSlmwA1ZCaXT0pqZ1QAj0Wy/QSVkMUDJW5dmNU6m Kgu0ge5BKreu91XNq9h5egIloaRTS0qxSyNxI0pED1Km4Jb4oO6YD7LrU 95pY0/xTg8VMGqDqhwwyRbpwdbH0xVk8RzOa2pbbUrCUTCZDTc50ZxfOj k=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,7317"; a="58074591" Received: from ironmsg02-lv.qualcomm.com ([10.47.202.183]) by sabertooth01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 14 Jan 2014 06:11:55 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,7317"; a="25664355" Received: from nasanexhc15.na.qualcomm.com ([129.46.52.215]) by ironmsg02-lv.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 14 Jan 2014 06:11:54 -0800 Received: from NASANEXD01H.na.qualcomm.com ([169.254.8.27]) by nasanexhc15.na.qualcomm.com ([129.46.52.215]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:11:54 -0800 From: "Mandyam, Giridhar" To: Harald Alvestrand , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Giri's choices - interoperability (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) Thread-Index: AQHPERnU0rfFoQaUE0GUmUyGqXlL+pqEQnNA Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:11:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D51C28.9020907@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <52D51C28.9020907@alvestrand.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [199.106.115.192] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A167346A6nasanexd01hnaqu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Giri's choices - interoperability (Re: Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:12:08 -0000 --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A167346A6nasanexd01hnaqu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Harald, Agreed - this response is inconsistent. My apologies. The objection shoul= d've simply stated that "VP8 standardization is incomplete" (although I kn= ow that you are trying your best to address this issue). -Giri From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Harald Alvestran= d Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 3:15 AM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] Giri's choices - interoperability (Re: Straw Poll on Vide= o Codec Alternatives) On 01/12/2014 06:00 AM, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote: 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: NO b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so please summarize them: Does not allow interop with legacy systems and standards su= ch as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete. I have a problem interpreting the first sentence in the objections here. If a system implements H.264, as required under this option, why would it n= ot allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video T= elephony? And if it would not allow that, wouldn't that also be an objection to optio= n 1 (H.264 only)? --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A167346A6nasanexd01hnaqu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Harald,=

    Agreed – this respo= nse is inconsistent.  My apologies.  The objection should’v= e simply stated that “VP8 standardization is incomplete”&nbs= p; (although I know that you are trying your best to address this issue).

    -Giri

     <= /p>

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Harald Alvestrand
    Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 3:15 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: [rtcweb] Giri's choices - interoperability (Re: Straw Poll = on Video Codec Alternatives)

     

    On 01/12/2014 06:00 AM, Mandyam, Giridhar wrote:

    3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8

    a. Are you in favor of this option [Yes/No/Acceptable]: = NO

    b. Do you have any objections to this option, if so plea= se summarize them:

             &n= bsp;      Does not allow interop with legacy syste= ms and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video Telephony. VP8 standardization is incomplete.

    I have a problem inte= rpreting the first sentence in the objections here.

    If a system implements H.264, as required under this option, why would it n= ot allow interop with legacy systems and standards such as 3GPP IMS Video T= elephony?

    And if it would not allow that, wouldn't that also be an objection to optio= n 1 (H.264 only)?

    --_000_CAC8DBE4E9704C41BCB290C2F3CC921A167346A6nasanexd01hnaqu_-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 06:15:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADE91AE077 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gg9jZLo8Yjrn for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654741AE0E9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so409363ieb.2 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xGYfIP6y2bvrI3d20ZN10FSoIKZ2YfBFNJnSaJ68dv0=; b=HN5h5+Z8pdoEWqQ+0DUbxCmb7u+iEKQb6kOskPorhdHmbLEuKka+rh8nSoYkzymvs7 aUV+FEu0pv3H+GBp0nsg0u5QjW6r4HKIv/gIH7HtgMb6tUa0R+ICP+zP4qMw95QEOmaR qGZHvOtuT/lWjUxCjJdLrLqxMQzi2DlmbqwDddbqqp3Ctj+5olFT/Xmdf68SdKPXbYUE jCqtCMOdkeIgEKXMMhjNOWQ2m8lYyayqsWaZN/rjfNCpd+BWluvt97AEEiyJZk8pxKZc KA04pq8a15XJ3hbJshVL+/4vTYVsRMviqxineu6Kx77624p0U0DP3WDBeL064hIyvqAM uv8w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnrpH7X0F4Nj672W/kfaEir3HeRQon7ZZqNMZU9YBrUjdXFpzxO9DVzq8jI2y7Fryh8NHCT X-Received: by 10.50.119.197 with SMTP id kw5mr3076024igb.28.1389708932477; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d18sm24082995igz.0.2014.01.14.06.15.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:15:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:15:28 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Rescorla References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:15:54 -0000 I stand corrected: http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching that. I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... Gili On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc wrote: >> To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across which >> exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only >> supports hardware encoding for VP8. > Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That does not match > my understanding. > > -Ekr From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 06:31:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CD31AE0DF for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P0lUEON2MyGg for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f174.google.com (mail-ie0-f174.google.com [209.85.223.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2391ADBE5 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f174.google.com with SMTP id lx4so431573iec.33 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:30:48 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=x95wwE7wglnmF6G3NLUnXFzgqEhZK9eBR0FwSdSEEUk=; b=MX0mPtIy/BRdsRGJxXCwrQd4ksd/CkBadNvto6oErXAitpsc8hlzo+jSoO4XG91Mpo 54YPOTbip5iMnvTDkNFzEvWtEXEct57vb+ZQ5+60XhtU2LERJoO0fBRZnuOOILBqTbFC x0GFCs5ffs6w6y/OXBOoo858nBJhqTG/6yf3UuDPCCBe16k2YabgSD0ZLDDZ2W//nZwm 9YjKhEt4m+qgQWxOpGwX67+beUSSmAsdI+6HW8YIlpYysF784yJKVcx7JwycsQ2ipMvl xdpES46ZQJMKBITKlIFMueBYu5wbmETEeXvPEG6fvzkpnSzAr12kr5PKQx6J/y7oPLtQ YrbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnsEaDaTM0ddEIWF3WtSbFJt30H/LAsuj5s4rF2Olk3yNR7wbCjRBI8XS/n3Vq9aCza8eDV X-Received: by 10.50.238.162 with SMTP id vl2mr3112495igc.45.1389709848273; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kb10sm1399052igb.6.2014.01.14.06.30.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:30:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D54A13.8080008@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:30:43 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com, christer.holmberg@ericsson.com, keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com, rtcweb@ietf.org References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:31:03 -0000 Thanks for this post. It *does* help. My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions? Thanks, Gili On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > Hi, > > There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation: > > 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a gateway > > In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided. > > I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. > > 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW codec support > > This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support. > > 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video related services and standards > > In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC. > > > So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate. > > Regards, > Markus > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer >> Holmberg >> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 >> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment >> on Straw Poll replies) >> >> Hi, >> >>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode >>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do >> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the >> MTI discussion. >> >> I don't agree. >> >>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often >> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, >> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. >>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI >> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. >>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what >> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. >> >> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo >> him. >> >> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS >> SIP networks. >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc >>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] >>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM >>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on >>> Straw Poll replies) >>> >>> Keith, >>> >>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect >> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get >> this argument. >>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: >>> >>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing >> so, >>> * Understand SDP, >>> * Are WebRTC compliant >>> >>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin >> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. >>> Gili >>> >>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >>> >>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >>> >>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and >> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest >> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort >> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost >> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be >> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path >> using that delay portion. >>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using >> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >>> Keith >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc >>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 >>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >>> >>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, >> stephane.proust@orange.com >> wrote: >>> >>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict >> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old >> features only? >>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they >> look backwards and not forwards. >>> >>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >>> >>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old >> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live >> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit >> surprised that your are part of them. >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >>> >>> >>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* >> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end- >> points, great. If not, you can either: >>> * Use H.261, or >>> * Transcode, or >>> * Drop Video >>> >>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to >> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as >> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. >> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. >>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to >> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything >> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. >>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support >> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that >> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when >> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). >>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty- >> free. >>> Gili >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ron@debian.org Tue Jan 14 06:50:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035D51AE0E0 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:50:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RIBZp_0uTakU for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4D91AE0DF for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-34-29.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.34.29]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 15 Jan 2014 01:20:42 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072164F8F3 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 01:17:08 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Oyr5k8Mjbqh1 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 01:17:07 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1456B4F902; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 01:17:07 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 01:17:07 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140114144706.GU3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:50:56 -0000 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 09:15:28AM -0500, cowwoc wrote: > I stand corrected: > http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html > > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching that. > > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware > encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... The more interesting question to me would be if someone could give us an estimate of what proportion of Android devices actually have either ASIC hardware support for both of these, or sufficiently capable CPUs to do them in software? If access to both of these is guaranteed on that platform, then it almost doesn't matter what the others are doing, if we choose VP8 then we have support on something like 80% of the mobile device market.[1] The others will either follow along soon enough, or ... burn their platforms I guess.[2] What am I missing that nobody has pointed this out for us already? Cheers, Ron [1] And most (or all?) of the rest have no support for using the onboard acceleration for either case anyway. [2] Unless they get a belated interest in H.261 maybe. From cb.list6@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 06:54:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209141AE0E0 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:54:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xO_8bNnG6jsd for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4331ADFB6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id ex4so1943407wid.17 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+ZMuPYTEeQ4P1z93xIjVZsxK1kjHfELJaEsBsg807R0=; b=F5vLkN2qmhbNM6N0NnHsRESkQvlnFgq5s6sYwk5VifDZIWwqHR5rVTuuC5vjuCnS/8 2QmbJiBJJdZe2a11lf4Vl1pY2PbyYEj5qOVORghWV8ucqyX6Wrst11WX5xiPALkqsetP aVeppXvxbVlUsXOsOywtYIyCUUxHs5gRBUV+KkHdaXo/dtvTNfS3uHfgMC2/cIqDX/K2 AfJUp9Bm5ogekYQQ1wK5zU8L09RxUk8O1RYxv/SIJ3YYphHjbZ0/3NDLRsFkPGn/jzz9 rEJdTzcI80WOKdGDwQaVxgngdZvWm6hp1576LTYS+YKqpKsHblIuPjTR4XOfg6E+Ndz8 Re7g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.13.17 with SMTP id eu17mr1734175wjd.24.1389711224882; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:53:44 -0800 Message-ID: From: Cb B To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd91a7ae64a5304efef5b5b Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:54:00 -0000 --047d7bd91a7ae64a5304efef5b5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the MTI discussion. > > I don't agree. > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo him. > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS SIP networks. > > Regards, > > Christer > > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all. In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment. I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a plugin (i think..) So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it does not exist. CB > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > Keith, > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument. > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, > > * Understand SDP, > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > > > Gili > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion. > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > Keith > > > > ________________________________ > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > * Use H.261, or > > * Transcode, or > > * Drop Video > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free. > > > > Gili > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --047d7bd91a7ae64a5304efef5b5b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> w= rote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.= e. decode
    > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device c= an do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not rel= evant to the MTI discussion.
    >
    > I don't agree.
    >
    > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functiona= lity will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous con= sent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding.
    > >
    > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other = codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > >
    > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for= you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    >
    > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'= ll echo him.
    >
    > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be no= n-IMS SIP networks.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Christer
    >
    >

    You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is n= ot widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all= .

    In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is = more widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment.

    I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls= without a plugin (i think..)

    So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install bas= e since it does not exist.

    CB
    >
    >
    > > ________________________________________
    > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-b= ounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.o= rg]
    > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcw= eb@ietf.org
    > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Commen= t on
    > > Straw Poll replies)
    > >
    > > Keith,
    > >
    > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you = expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don= 't get this argument.
    > >
    > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > >
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public = APIs for doing so,
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Understand SDP,
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Are WebRTC compliant
    > >
    > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magical= ly begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get release= d.
    > >
    > > Gili
    > >
    > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > >
    > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > >
    > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parti= es, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the r= est of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having = to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, b= ut it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay= , which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in = the call path using that delay portion.
    > >
    > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users usi= ng legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > >
    > > Keith
    > >
    > > ________________________________
    > > From: rtcweb [mailto:r= tcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mai= lto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > >
    > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restric= t WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old fea= tures only?
    > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded b= ecause they look backwards and not forwards.
    > >
    > >
    > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way= forward.
    > >
    > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of= old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who c= ould live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only =A0MTI = codec.
    > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od&qu= ot; features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.h= tml
    > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > >
    > >
    > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck wit= h using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are avail= able on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    > >
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Use H.261, or
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Transcode, or
    > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Drop Video
    > >
    > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are fo= rced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as = simple as compiling https://git= hub.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need = hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > >
    > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se,= but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and aga= inst everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > >
    > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to suppo= rt *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that r= eason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important w= hen breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it do= es).
    > >
    > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available ro= yalty-free.
    > >
    > > Gili
    > >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --047d7bd91a7ae64a5304efef5b5b-- From cb.list6@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 06:59:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144B61A1F3F for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R75l09S452_C for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A751ADFB6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b13so491951wgh.19 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0pAwzBHCZg8/iXaPi2YsWJrvcmZV/L06n5XRJy+6x6o=; b=g9seHMw+fJ4cy+F2A6CDsW8S0f07WMnEXSwVhcpblKLEqJVsWkjAXjTnUbk7AJSDGB bJZEqv/qw+9HVqVAD3Hu3HirKr7TVK+fraDQcNuVLP1cZ9fwc8GfqwaRr8xQmnuw6h2N Ff6PKBgSpf2PssbucbP9kUkmdYC/w/Wb3bTbJXSD4ChMIgbfI3VXfX9Mm98i4S0Rb/Hi +HxQFWfoffGTsA/diDFXPvL+ZAuGlle0a1HLWMVviDhjjLybWn6hv4l8jXJYI36R2jPv rJYo0iMsKYQZlmqSQHdBWqQ/5+TS2bmyhcbSuN/xaMhksMLemvLDWLhoFLkIib18GtbN 3xkg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.184.105 with SMTP id et9mr20436598wic.36.1389711556472; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.221.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 06:59:16 -0800 Message-ID: From: Cb B To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c228a2a9f74c04efef6f8e Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:59:32 -0000 --001a11c228a2a9f74c04efef6f8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" wrote: > > > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the MTI discussion. > > > > I don't agree. > > > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo him. > > > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS SIP networks. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all. > > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment. > > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a plugin (i think..) > > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it does not exist. > > CB > I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it. I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at scale and is worth discussing as an install base. CB > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on > > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > > > Keith, > > > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument. > > > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so, > > > * Understand SDP, > > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion. > > > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only? > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. > > > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > > > * Use H.261, or > > > * Transcode, or > > > * Drop Video > > > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free. > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --001a11c228a2a9f74c04efef6f8e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com&= gt; wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTub= e (i.e. decode
    > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy dev= ice can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's no= t relevant to the MTI discussion.
    > >
    > > I don't agree.
    > >
    > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway func= tionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continou= s consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding= .
    > > >
    > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any o= ther codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.=
    > > >
    > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's importan= t for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify= .
    > >
    > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I= 'll echo him.
    > >
    > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also = be non-IMS SIP networks.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > >
    > > Christer
    > >
    > >
    >
    > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely = deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all.
    >
    > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widel= y deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment.
    >
    > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a= plugin (i think..)
    >
    > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it= does not exist.
    >
    > CB
    >

    I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discus= s it.

    I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not disc= uss that either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production = at scale and is worth discussing as an install base.

    CB
    > >
    > >
    > > > ________________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [rtc= web-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darkt= ech.org]
    > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: C= omment on
    > > > Straw Poll replies)
    > > >
    > > > Keith,
    > > >
    > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do= you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I jus= t don't get this argument.
    > > >
    > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > > >
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose pu= blic APIs for doing so,
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Understand SDP,
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Are WebRTC compliant
    > > >
    > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will ma= gically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get re= leased.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > > >
    > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > > >
    > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more = parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and = the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without ha= ving to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possib= le, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces = delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone els= e in the call path using that delay portion.
    > > >
    > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those user= s using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > > >
    > > > Keith
    > > >
    > > > ________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org&l= t;mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > > >
    > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to re= strict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol= d features only?
    > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregar= ded because they look backwards and not forwards.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructiv= e way forward.
    > > >
    > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get r= id of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those = who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only = =A0MTI codec.
    > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "= od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of the= m.
    > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10= 798.html
    > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI code= c)
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuc= k with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are = available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    > > >
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Use H.261, or
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Transcode, or
    > > > =A0 =A0* =A0 Drop Video
    > > >
    > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and a= re forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 i= s as simple as compiling https:= //github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't = need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > > >
    > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, pe= r se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it an= d against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argume= nt.
    > > >
    > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to = support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For t= hat reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is import= ant when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe = it does).
    > > >
    > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 availab= le royalty-free.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a11c228a2a9f74c04efef6f8e-- From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 08:55:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839AF1AE11C for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZszBQD7NVv2F for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s13.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s13.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.88]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497B31AE13B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU181-W5 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s13.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:14 -0800 X-TMN: [vieSpPfqapceH/aUaJik4YyRqgdaToi5bctuVHQy3Hg=] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2a38de3f-e0c6-4605-a897-afe5fdaad092_" From: Bernard Aboba To: Magnus Westerlund , Tim Panton Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:13 -0800 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com> References: , <67AD498F-4E6D-48FD-9067-B4491BE3FC16@phonefromhere.com>, <52BF083C.7050308@googlemail.com>, <7684BF01-C9F6-49F6-8B6A-A262EE3B08C0@phonefromhere.com> , <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2014 16:55:14.0207 (UTC) FILETIME=[6503DAF0:01CF1149] Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:28 -0000 --_2a38de3f-e0c6-4605-a897-afe5fdaad092_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd prefer choice A. It makes sense to me for all fb message recommendatio= ns to be handled within the same document. Right now RPSI and SLI are disc= ussed in the RTP usage document=2C but are OPTIONAL=2C Since there will be= substantial benefits in terms of interoperability=2C I'd like to see comm= only used fb messages RECOMMENDED for implementation (since implementation = is not required in the codec documents a MUST is probably too much).=20 =20 It might also be appropriate to include a general statement that WebRTC imp= lementations supporting a particular video codec need to conform to the req= uirements of the codec specification with respect to fb messages. =20 =20 I am indifferent to whether the RTP usage document includes a reference to = the VP8 or H265 payload specifications or not (I'd suggest that either refe= rence be non-normative). RFC 6184 does not have a section on fb messages si= milar to the ones in the VP8 and H265 payload specs=2C so that will not be = of much help.=20 =20 > Date: Tue=2C 14 Jan 2014 10:54:31 +0100 > From: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com=3B tim@phonefromhere.com > CC: rtcweb@ietf.org=3B csp@csperkins.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage docum= ent) >=20 > Hi Bernard and Tim=2C > (As document author) >=20 > I have reviewed this issue and have the following comments regarding it. > So=2C both VP8 and H.265 RTP Payload formats specifies how=2C but does no= t > mandate support of RPSI or SLI/SPLI. To my understanding such > requirement would be expressed by a user of the codec=2C like WebRTC. The > RTP usage document has so far avoided specifying any specifics for a > particular video codec and its payload format. And I would note that the > solution so far allows negotiation of these features=2C at least as long > as one accept to arrive at symmetric capabilities in send vs receive. >=20 > Thus the question is in which direction you think this should be addresse= d: >=20 > A) A generally changing the requirement on RPSI and SLI to enable its > usage with all video codecs (capable of using them) in WebRTC. Raising > the requirements level either to RECOMMENDED or SHALL. >=20 > B) Write a draft-ietf-rtcweb-video that has a section saying: > Codec Specific Requirements > --------------------------- > - If you implement VP8 in WebRTC also RPSI and SLI SHALL be supported. > - If you implement H.265 in WebRTC also RPSI and SPLI SHALL be supported. >=20 > Note that SHALL could be replaced by RECOMMENDED depending on the WGs > consensus for what is appropriate here. >=20 > Note that the WG can choose to do both of the above alternative (A and > B) but for example use A) to raise these to RECOMMENDED and use B to > mandate them for specific codecs. >=20 > For the H.265 RTP Payload format and the SPLI message we might have > issues with its publication not finishing=2C less so with VP8=2C but not > impossible. We might have to deal with more unfinished pointers as we > get closer to the publication request state. >=20 > I believe that we need more input from the WG about this question. Both > what an appropriate way forward for this issue is=2C and what requirement= s > level people are interested in. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2013-12-30 16:28=2C Bernard Aboba wrote: > > Tim Panton said:=20 > >=20 > >> No - just that if you disable rtcp-fb in a VP8 session=2C you'll have = a > > poor experience - try it in a few wireless environments. > >=20 > > [BA] Totally agree -- and yet the RTP usage document does not properly > > account for this. =20 > >=20 > > draft-ietf-payload-vp8 Section 5 refers to the RPSI and SLI feedback > > messages.=20 > > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-h265 Section 8 refers to the RPSI and (newly > > defined) SPLI messages.=20 > >=20 > > And yet draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage Section 5.1.3 indicates that suppor= t > > for SLI is OPTIONAL while Section 5.1.4 indicates that support for RPSI > > is OPTIONAL. =20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies=2C Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm=2C Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 = --_2a38de3f-e0c6-4605-a897-afe5fdaad092_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I'd prefer choice A. =3B It = makes sense to me for all fb message recommendations to be handled =3Bw= ithin the same document. =3B Right now RPSI and SLI are discussed in th= e RTP usage document=2C but are OPTIONAL=2C =3B Since there will be sub= stantial benefits in terms of interoperability=2C =3B I'd like to see c= ommonly used fb messages RECOMMENDED for implementation (since implementati= on is not required in the codec documents a MUST is probably too much).  =3B
    It might also be appropriate to include a general statement th= at WebRTC implementations supporting a particular video codec need to confo= rm to the requirements of the codec specification with respect to fb messag= es. =3B
     =3B
    I am indifferent to whether the RTP usage docum= ent includes a reference to the VP8 or H265 payload specifications or not (= I'd suggest that either reference be non-normative). RFC 6184 does not have= a section on fb messages similar to the ones in the VP8 and H265 payload s= pecs=2C so that will not be of much help.
     =3B
    >=3B Date:= Tue=2C 14 Jan 2014 10:54:31 +0100
    >=3B From: magnus.westerlund@ericss= on.com
    >=3B To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com=3B tim@phonefromhere.com
    = >=3B CC: rtcweb@ietf.org=3B csp@csperkins.org
    >=3B Subject: Re: [rtc= web] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document)
    >=3B
    = >=3B Hi Bernard and Tim=2C
    >=3B (As document author)
    >=3B
    &= gt=3B I have reviewed this issue and have the following comments regarding = it.
    >=3B So=2C both VP8 and H.265 RTP Payload formats specifies how=2C= but does not
    >=3B mandate support of RPSI or SLI/SPLI. To my understa= nding such
    >=3B requirement would be expressed by a user of the codec= =2C like WebRTC. The
    >=3B RTP usage document has so far avoided specif= ying any specifics for a
    >=3B particular video codec and its payload f= ormat. And I would note that the
    >=3B solution so far allows negotiati= on of these features=2C at least as long
    >=3B as one accept to arrive = at symmetric capabilities in send vs receive.
    >=3B
    >=3B Thus the= question is in which direction you think this should be addressed:
    >= =3B
    >=3B A) A generally changing the requirement on RPSI and SLI to e= nable its
    >=3B usage with all video codecs (capable of using them) in = WebRTC. Raising
    >=3B the requirements level either to RECOMMENDED or S= HALL.
    >=3B
    >=3B B) Write a draft-ietf-rtcweb-video that has a se= ction saying:
    >=3B Codec Specific Requirements
    >=3B -------------= --------------
    >=3B - If you implement VP8 in WebRTC also RPSI and SLI= SHALL be supported.
    >=3B - If you implement H.265 in WebRTC also RPSI= and SPLI SHALL be supported.
    >=3B
    >=3B Note that SHALL could be= replaced by RECOMMENDED depending on the WGs
    >=3B consensus for what = is appropriate here.
    >=3B
    >=3B Note that the WG can choose to do= both of the above alternative (A and
    >=3B B) but for example use A) t= o raise these to RECOMMENDED and use B to
    >=3B mandate them for specif= ic codecs.
    >=3B
    >=3B For the H.265 RTP Payload format and the SP= LI message we might have
    >=3B issues with its publication not finishin= g=2C less so with VP8=2C but not
    >=3B impossible. We might have to dea= l with more unfinished pointers as we
    >=3B get closer to the publicati= on request state.
    >=3B
    >=3B I believe that we need more input fr= om the WG about this question. Both
    >=3B what an appropriate way forwa= rd for this issue is=2C and what requirements
    >=3B level people are in= terested in.
    >=3B
    >=3B Cheers
    >=3B
    >=3B Magnus
    >= =3B
    >=3B On 2013-12-30 16:28=2C Bernard Aboba wrote:
    >=3B >=3B= Tim Panton said:
    >=3B >=3B
    >=3B >=3B>=3B No - just that = if you disable rtcp-fb in a VP8 session=2C you'll have a
    >=3B >=3B p= oor experience - try it in a few wireless environments.
    >=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B [BA] Totally agree -- and yet the RTP usage document does n= ot properly
    >=3B >=3B account for this.
    >=3B >=3B
    >= =3B >=3B draft-ietf-payload-vp8 Section 5 refers to the RPSI and SLI feed= back
    >=3B >=3B messages.
    >=3B >=3B draft-ietf-payload-rtp-h2= 65 Section 8 refers to the RPSI and (newly
    >=3B >=3B defined) SPLI m= essages.
    >=3B >=3B
    >=3B >=3B And yet draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-= usage Section 5.1.3 indicates that support
    >=3B >=3B for SLI is OPTI= ONAL while Section 5.1.4 indicates that support for RPSI
    >=3B >=3B i= s OPTIONAL.
    >=3B >=3B
    >=3B >=3B
    >=3B >=3B
    >= =3B >=3B
    >=3B >=3B
    >=3B
    >=3B
    >=3B --
    >=3B=
    >=3B Magnus Westerlund
    >=3B
    >=3B ------------------------= ----------------------------------------------
    >=3B Multimedia Technol= ogies=2C Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
    >=3B ------------------------------= ----------------------------------------
    >=3B Ericsson AB = | Phone +46 10 7148287<= /span>
    >=3B F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 = 0949079
    >=3B SE-164 80 Sto= ckholm=2C Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
    >=3B --------= --------------------------------------------------------------
    >=3B
    = --_2a38de3f-e0c6-4605-a897-afe5fdaad092_-- From stewe@stewe.org Tue Jan 14 08:55:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19B1AE1B9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrKnkCw-NksO for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0152.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.152]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B3C1AE11C for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.22) by CO1PR07MB361.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.842.7; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:29 +0000 Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.85]) by CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.186]) with mapi id 15.00.0842.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:28 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: Tim Panton , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPDesrlAD8HxWcikiJR9XVZugWsZp+C+sAgAAdOYCABJflgIAAr8eAgACYf4CAACURgP//woSA Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> In-Reply-To: <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [12.226.90.11] x-forefront-prvs: 0091C8F1EB x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(679001)(689001)(779001)(24454002)(43544003)(51704005)(199002)(189002)(479174003)(49866001)(4396001)(74502001)(87266001)(79102001)(54356001)(80976001)(66066001)(81542001)(65816001)(77096001)(87936001)(47736001)(90146001)(85306002)(47976001)(76796001)(74366001)(93136001)(76482001)(50986001)(80022001)(2656002)(76786001)(74706001)(47446002)(56816005)(46102001)(92726001)(81816001)(31966008)(36756003)(74662001)(81342001)(92566001)(77982001)(81686001)(59766001)(51856001)(19580405001)(83072002)(53806001)(69226001)(85852003)(74876001)(19580395003)(83322001)(54316002)(63696002)(56776001)(42262001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CO1PR07MB361; H:CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:12.226.90.11; FPR:; RD:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <8D8010149916CF49BD501A9DEDD5D589@namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:46 -0000 On 1/14/14, 4:35, "Tim Panton" wrote: > >On 14 Jan 2014, at 10:22, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > wrote: > >> In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were showing, at >>least according to the reports I have seen. >>=20 >> Further, apart from any processing power, the critical issue is the >>delay involved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that from >>this demonstration, and I suspect you do not either. Given that you must >>receive frames to do the conversion, my belief is that we will still be >>talking both decode and encode delay at the conversion point of the >>order of 60 - 70 ms, whatever mechanism is used. That is a significant >>take from the limits specified in ITU Recommendation G.114. >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Keith >>=20 > >My experience of the existing mass h264 deployments in the mobile space >is that they like to split the the audio and >video media paths. (You'd need to do this in any gateway to these legacy >systems).=20 >This means that they can get out of sync. This would be made worse by >transcoding the video leg. RTP is designed to take care of this. >Although there is a counter argument that they are already unacceptable, >so 70ms won't make any difference. > >T. >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From tim@phonefromhere.com Tue Jan 14 09:00:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0067E1AE183 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:00:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hdsbgVFOxrF for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B701AE17E for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61371 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2014 16:59:43 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 12609 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2014 16:59:43 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D4418A0D59; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:59:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F1CE18A0D54; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:59:43 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:59:42 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34D5CA53-067D-4AE5-A784-1DADCF45BB26@phonefromhere.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> To: Stephan Wenger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:00:01 -0000 On 14 Jan 2014, at 16:55, Stephan Wenger wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 1/14/14, 4:35, "Tim Panton" wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> On 14 Jan 2014, at 10:22, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) >> wrote: >>=20 >>> In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were showing, at >>> least according to the reports I have seen. >>>=20 >>> Further, apart from any processing power, the critical issue is the >>> delay involved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that = from >>> this demonstration, and I suspect you do not either. Given that you = must >>> receive frames to do the conversion, my belief is that we will still = be >>> talking both decode and encode delay at the conversion point of the >>> order of 60 - 70 ms, whatever mechanism is used. That is a = significant >>> take from the limits specified in ITU Recommendation G.114. >>>=20 >>> Regards >>>=20 >>> Keith >>>=20 >>=20 >> My experience of the existing mass h264 deployments in the mobile = space >> is that they like to split the the audio and >> video media paths. (You'd need to do this in any gateway to these = legacy >> systems).=20 >> This means that they can get out of sync. This would be made worse by >> transcoding the video leg. >=20 > RTP is designed to take care of this. Not if audio and video are on separate calls - which seems to be what = RCS/joyn=20 expects. T. From ted.ietf@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 09:08:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9141AE10D for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtoGQjOCQ_Um for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F22E1AE0F6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id at1so688056iec.26 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ig03EylKviy51+DKNeyNMbK2SwMrAjrtgRO33thlI/I=; b=0HYurAs5LsMxPGvMmPYTTYCsZyuXvuKZ224TSsvOesgx1H7lnkJ7yq2tZwKkrfzeBl qFUzGhwzvOCUBH13XeP7dEixL2RV7j3eZkWlWoq4/j3ysSIcEdAwRF3hKFOJD2NLead+ yzgdeWH0FlChSy9TRJtkNV/eN3tjCS/HUdWbdtggJhR3/fEUiFKcV/glu9UONFf2XZJR /a0SBUVQd19aqYcJE5vy6EKtZ7lvzH247pnAm17h/apdMsb0y0T6D72tFArFLZ4MG56j 8oUqF+BlwXrzCuMpAnC1lvgoVSP+yPxMgUMVzAv8KAHrcAn03MJ1tzAp8A0DM0ISzoZz IIGg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.3 with SMTP id lo3mr4052911igb.30.1389719297568; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.104.130 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:08:16 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Magnus Westerlund , Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=089e0160c4b012b6d304eff13df5 Subject: [rtcweb] Straw poll tabulation X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:08:31 -0000 --089e0160c4b012b6d304eff13df5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160c4b012b6cc04eff13df3 --089e0160c4b012b6cc04eff13df3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The chairs currently have the tabulation of the straw poll as found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au1skjUwD-8EdE5NdGF2MFpEYWxpSGJiYmRSWW5uOWc#gid=0 The same data is in an XLS spreadsheet, attached. If you see errors in our tabulation, please send a pointer to the email in which the straw poll was answered in order to make a correction, highlighting where the tabulation is incorrect. Thanks, Ted, Magnus, Cullen --089e0160c4b012b6cc04eff13df3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The chairs currently have the tabulation of the straw poll as found = here:=A0

    https://docs.google.co= m/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0Au1skjUwD-8EdE5NdGF2MFpEYWxpSGJiYmRSWW5uOWc#gid=3D= 0

    The same data is in an XLS spreadsheet, attached.=A0 If you see errors = in our tabulation,=A0 please send a pointer to the email in which the straw= poll was answered=20 in order to make a correction, highlighting where the tabulation is=20 incorrect.

    Thanks,

    Ted, Magnus, Cullen
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p98fAQAAuAMAABMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA984AAFtDb250ZW50X1R5cGVzXS54bWxQSwUGAAAAAAgA CAAIAgAAV9AAAAAA --089e0160c4b012b6d304eff13df5-- From stewe@stewe.org Tue Jan 14 09:27:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DD41AE153 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8c2YzMJ52BS for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2lp0237.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EF91AE142 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.22) by CO1PR07MB361.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.842.7; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:27:35 +0000 Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.85]) by CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.186]) with mapi id 15.00.0842.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:27:34 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , Silvia Pfeiffer Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPDesrlAD8HxWcikiJR9XVZugWsZp+C+sAgAAdOYCABJflgIAAr8eAgACYf4D///CKgA== Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:27:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [12.226.90.11] x-forefront-prvs: 0091C8F1EB x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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stewe.org Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:27:53 -0000 Hi, it=B9s somewhat funny that, on an IETF RAI area mailing list, people appear to forget about the arguably prime source of delay in any RTP receiver, including an RTP receiver in a transcoding box: the jitter buffer. My understanding is that most folks who run video over RTP over the Internet (in contrast to a private IP network) use jitter buffers of hundred milliseconds plus in size. Most practical video communication system over the Internet involves forms of retransmission or forward error correction, or both. Those add delay in case they are invoked to recreate packets lost in transmission, in the transcoder and separately also in the final receiver. As for the delay introduced by the transcoding engine alone, let me note that the single or two frame delay commonly attributed to transcoding is realistic only for straightforward PPP type coding. My understanding is that VP8, in its default encoder settings, uses much more complex GOP structures for error resilience and coding efficiency reasons. H.264 constrained baseline certainly also allows that (it=B9s even more flexible in that regard). Complex GOP structures are anywhere between helpful to essential (depending on your viewpoint) for error resilience. Complex GOP structures do not necessarily increase the latency in an overall system design in the absence of errors (they are not based on MPEG-2 B frame type of thinking), but when error correction becomes necessary, a transcoder would need to emulate receiver behavior, and that certainly would induce delay of several hundred milliseconds which would not be observable in a transcoder-free operation (under the assumption that the end system chooses to display slightly distorted video) but will be observable and unavoidable in the transcoder-based design. I=B9m very familiar with H.264 baseline, and somewhat familiar with the VP8 syntax. Based on this knowledge, I doubt that one can transcode between the two formats in the compressed domain, i.e. without full reconstructed to the sample level. I am absolutely convinced that compressed domain transcoding in the direction from H.264 to VP8 is impossible, due to the larger feature set of H.264. =B3Impossible=B2 means here that I could crea= te an H.264 compliant bitstream that cannot be transcoded into VP8 in the compressed domain, because there is no syntax equivalent for an H.264 tool in VP8. For example, H.264 constrained baseline supports more than three reference pictures, whereas VP8 uses no more than three (last frame, golden frame, and alternate reference frame). It wouldn=B9t take me long t= o extend this list to several pages. I=B9m also fairly certain that people more familiar with the VP8 syntax could similarly identify VP8 features that have no direct counterpart in H.264. Insofar, I take any statement about =B2availability=B2 of compressed domain transcoding between the two coding schemes with a large grain of salt. It may be possible (I don=B9t know) to transcode in the compressed domain between H.264/VP8 bitstreams when the respective input bitstream is specifically tailored for that purpose, and perhaps that is what people have in mind. Regards, Stephan On 1/14/14, 2:22, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" wrote: >In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were showing, at least >according to the reports I have seen. > >Further, apart from any processing power, the critical issue is the delay >involved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that from this >demonstration, and I suspect you do not either. Given that you must >receive frames to do the conversion, my belief is that we will still be >talking both decode and encode delay at the conversion point of the order >of 60 - 70 ms, whatever mechanism is used. That is a significant take >from the limits specified in ITU Recommendation G.114. > >Regards > >Keith > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Silvia Pfeiffer [mailto:silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com] >> Sent: 14 January 2014 01:17 >> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) >> Cc: cowwoc; rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >>=20 >> For all those concerns, please remember that Zingaya >> showcased a H.264 and VP8 real-time video conversion without >> transcoding. That to me shows that we may all be >> over-estimating the complexity involved in transcoding >> between H.264 and VP8. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Silvia. >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) >> wrote: >> > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >> > >> > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >> > >> > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more >> parties,=20 >> > and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB >> user and the=20 >> > rest of the entities in the world that are capable of >> video, without=20 >> > having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes >> transcoding is=20 >> > possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay >> for, and it=20 >> > introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the >> > possibility of someone else in the call path using that >> delay portion. >> > >> > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using >> > legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc >> > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 >> > To: rtcweb@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >> > >> > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict >> > WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and >> therefore to old features only? >> > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because >> > they look backwards and not forwards. >> > >> > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive >> way forward. >> > >> > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get >> rid of old=20 >> > technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from >> those who could=20 >> > live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as >> only MTI codec. >> > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a >> > little bit surprised that your are part of them. >> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >> > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >> > >> > >> > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with >> > using >> > *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are >> > available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: >> > >> > Use H.261, or >> > Transcode, or >> > Drop Video >> > >> > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and >> are forced=20 >> > to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting >> H.261 is as=20 >> > simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and >> popping it on=20 >> > your device. You don't need hardware support because it's >> so computationally cheap. >> > >> > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but >> > rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and >> > against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. >> > >> > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support >> > *existing* devices then we would use *existing* >> technologies. For that >> > reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility >> is important=20 >> > when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this >> case, I believe it does). >> > >> > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 >> available royalty-free. >> > >> > Gili >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > rtcweb mailing list >> > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > >>=20 >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Jan 14 09:35:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362031AE15E for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aDu8mL91mFH7 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.alcatel.com (hoemail1.alcatel.com [192.160.6.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1741AE153 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by hoemail1.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0EHZB4C028606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0EHZ81Z012128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:35:11 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:35:08 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Tim Panton , Stephan Wenger Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPESUbeWhlJf1Mx0iv0rI5UTUNqZqEX8uAgAABMACAABEB4A== Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B11510C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> <34D5CA53-067D-4AE5-A784-1DADCF45BB26@phonefromhere.com> In-Reply-To: <34D5CA53-067D-4AE5-A784-1DADCF45BB26@phonefromhere.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:35:27 -0000 IMS VoLTE has them both in the same SDP session. Not familiar enough with RCS to comment. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Panton [mailto:tim@phonefromhere.com]=20 > Sent: 14 January 2014 17:00 > To: Stephan Wenger > Cc: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >=20 >=20 > On 14 Jan 2014, at 16:55, Stephan Wenger wrote: >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On 1/14/14, 4:35, "Tim Panton" wrote: > >=20 > >>=20 > >> On 14 Jan 2014, at 10:22, DRAGE, Keith (Keith)=20 > >> wrote: > >>=20 > >>> In those terms, I do not believe that is what they were=20 > showing, at=20 > >>> least according to the reports I have seen. > >>>=20 > >>> Further, apart from any processing power, the critical=20 > issue is the=20 > >>> delay involved in any conversion, and I have no figures for that=20 > >>> from this demonstration, and I suspect you do not either.=20 > Given that=20 > >>> you must receive frames to do the conversion, my belief=20 > is that we=20 > >>> will still be talking both decode and encode delay at the=20 > conversion=20 > >>> point of the order of 60 - 70 ms, whatever mechanism is=20 > used. That=20 > >>> is a significant take from the limits specified in ITU=20 > Recommendation G.114. > >>>=20 > >>> Regards > >>>=20 > >>> Keith > >>>=20 > >>=20 > >> My experience of the existing mass h264 deployments in the mobile=20 > >> space is that they like to split the the audio and video=20 > media paths.=20 > >> (You'd need to do this in any gateway to these legacy systems). > >> This means that they can get out of sync. This would be=20 > made worse by=20 > >> transcoding the video leg. > >=20 > > RTP is designed to take care of this. >=20 >=20 > Not if audio and video are on separate calls - which seems to=20 > be what RCS/joyn expects. >=20 > T. >=20 > = From tim@phonefromhere.com Tue Jan 14 09:41:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10E81AE124 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:41:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmVF3muNxsQB for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp002.apm-internet.net (smtp002-out.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.223]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D461AE0F6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 94396 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2014 17:40:51 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 13208 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp002.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2014 17:40:51 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B208718A0636; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (limit.westhawk.co.uk [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6515918A062D; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B11510C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:40:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2508DC04-16E7-4B9D-BDB9-D1721C29D0BA@phonefromhere.com> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> <34D5CA53-067D-4AE5-A784-1DADCF45BB26@phonefromhere.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B11510C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:41:07 -0000 On 14 Jan 2014, at 17:35, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) = wrote: > IMS VoLTE has them both in the same SDP session. How many IMS VoLTE devices have been shipped ? (I'm trying to gauge the value of this legacy market). T. From Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Jan 14 09:54:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57101AE18E for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9sWSDxsEo4xG for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312711AE184 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-5-2-64.lucent.com [135.5.2.64]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0EHs4s7027979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:54:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.48]) by us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0EHs3K4026300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:54:03 -0500 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.8.91]) by US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.48]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:54:03 -0500 From: "Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)" To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , Tim Panton , Stephan Wenger Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies Thread-Index: AQHPDes2DToJv2ddFEuSU51EVolBeJqEX8uAgAABMACAABEB4IAAE6Bw Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:54:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <2521C21F-8D06-4AB1-916A-B1861FB38F2A@phonefromhere.com> <34D5CA53-067D-4AE5-A784-1DADCF45BB26@phonefromhere.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B11510C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B11510C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:54:19 -0000 =20 > IMS VoLTE has them both in the same SDP session. >=20 > Not familiar enough with RCS to comment. RCS has different modes. If RCS sees VoLTE is available on that device then= it uses VoLTE for audio/video communications. In general RCS uses underlyi= ng audio/video calling technology that is available, per access technology = (including non-3gpp access), on the device. There is a detailed description of this in table 2 of "Rich Communication S= uite 5.1 Advanced Communications Services and Client Specification Version = 4.028 November 2013". This RCS spec can be downloaded from http://www.gsma.com/futurecommunicatio= ns/rcs/specs-and-product-docs/ (select "Specifications" then "RCS 5.1 UNI")= . -Raju From ted.ietf@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 09:55:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902951AE06C for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Di7qwKM_q-as for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x22b.google.com (mail-ie0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B46F1ADF28 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so811706ieb.16 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=gOf0WB6aishqZSL+n//na6R2YG5iEgxFQH2BuDpOvFk=; b=oXUPNi3h5e9pyejnky9yFteMpGqOWY5FBjjZdrbvDgsRoWfSWu+JjJVX83FgYsjlDF MwCbZON60j6IGpMieaDKyke0R2VQiR/kIapIrfAkUqY6V5WRW5yreCZc042RwS7ONIlP 8GSXyNdGwvJpWP4FkTZKFUDe7WkaP0DtKkQLkuc61YBMDeKIqlkn1Wx4VERI0djztTZi Eqe3psyD76wni69nOU8RJ71HlRvnI37NA8ufV84GYotnMcurYS0AL/M7r/uOaL+7gHo+ yTUZ8edgi/vvO8K/3BaOvFWVAquS8T7meFxO+GVvJU3fVaoKcs7BPtZC8qh01mCp2GYD ckIg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.38 with SMTP id lp6mr25848240igb.30.1389722125548; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.104.130 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:55:25 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Magnus Westerlund , Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01538360a14c0604eff1e593 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw poll tabulation X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:55:38 -0000 --089e01538360a14c0604eff1e593 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We have received one correction, and the spreadsheet has been updated to reflect that Mo entered Yes for question 4. regards, Ted Hardie On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > The chairs currently have the tabulation of the straw poll as found here: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au1skjUwD-8EdE5NdGF2MFpEYWxpSGJiYmRSWW5uOWc#gid=0 > > The same data is in an XLS spreadsheet, attached. If you see errors in > our tabulation, please send a pointer to the email in which the straw poll > was answered in order to make a correction, highlighting where the > tabulation is incorrect. > > Thanks, > > Ted, Magnus, Cullen > --089e01538360a14c0604eff1e593 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    We have received one correction, and the spreadsheet has been update= d to reflect that Mo entered Yes for question 4.

    regards,

    Ted Hardie

    On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    The chairs currently have the tabulat= ion of the straw poll as found here:=A0

    https://docs.goog= le.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0Au1skjUwD-8EdE5NdGF2MFpEYWxpSGJiYmRSWW5uOWc#g= id=3D0

    The same data is in an XLS spreadsheet, attached.=A0 If you see errors = in our tabulation,=A0 please send a pointer to the email in which the straw= poll was answered=20 in order to make a correction, highlighting where the tabulation is=20 incorrect.

    Thanks,

    Ted, Magnus, Cullen

    --089e01538360a14c0604eff1e593-- From steve@tokbox.com Tue Jan 14 10:00:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44411ADF28 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6CPYjpTXrRt for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com (mail-pa0-f54.google.com [209.85.220.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA6D1AE153 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fa1so2482376pad.27 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=x5Jt7IuwFsuoQQ6K3pH1ZxjrUcCNdi7+CMs+IVBjAxo=; b=grknLIQ7BwsgYaglQ6UwDcfDSuJvSy0E1AWx+KgI+6BxdUnaailVwtgcawNUcibH9/ PbpnUt5sF0CDB4WDYHVl9OcR/2OS8Zc3iQP7GnzRV5oAlmkTcYFDsYFAO9BpyRfmHZF1 /7iM4v/PC2vbyZwmU3LD0TtwMEnlarieeIDcWtqEt+wAR77Ss2aHymdNm3grqWmb4a4+ La7YuTwNsp1Y9zjO8bxCH7+QpMtYFNG6EwFtUfuS+vA7iwP7Qvsbzgx4lAEXjRmQOf5B eeXrSX/Nt9PQme6id2HcKf1e8qDWv+1u1navYm2kkXCXBjLFqUcumQR7+cO8aPx2SDIf /B7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlorEHS5bbpfUFxTK4cT6NcyXHX7CIQrq+YfVj3PmAX/fIpHbnjmKc/KpnC8HL0lZkYA7GV X-Received: by 10.68.211.1 with SMTP id my1mr3296690pbc.55.1389722426685; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from steves-mbp-2.tokbox.com ([216.38.134.120]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id os1sm3298439pac.20.2014.01.14.10.00.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_23DA9EAC-97D0-4A62-8D0D-54E9D2BE29F5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Steve McFarlin In-Reply-To: <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:00:23 -0800 Message-Id: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> To: cowwoc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:00:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_23DA9EAC-97D0-4A62-8D0D-54E9D2BE29F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 It looks like Blackberry has API=92s for H.264 encoding/decoding [1], = and windows phone also looks like it may have API=92s (I don=92t have = enough time to really look) [2].=20 [1] = http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/core/com.qnx.doc.camera.l= ib_ref/topic/manual/camera_h264avc.h_enums_overview.html [2] = http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/develop/windows.phone= .media.capture.h264encoderprofile(v=3Dvs.105).aspx On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc wrote: > I stand corrected: = http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html >=20 > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching = that. >=20 > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware = encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... >=20 > Gili >=20 > On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc = wrote: >>> To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across = which >>> exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it = only >>> supports hardware encoding for VP8. >> Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That does not = match >> my understanding. >>=20 >> -Ekr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --Apple-Mail=_23DA9EAC-97D0-4A62-8D0D-54E9D2BE29F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 It = looks like Blackberry has API=92s for H.264 encoding/decoding [1], and = windows phone also looks like it may have API=92s (I don=92t have enough = time to really look) = [2]. 




    = On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> = wrote:

    I stand corrected: ht= tp://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html

    Bo= th H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching = that.

    I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for = hardware encoding/decoding of video outside of = Android...

    Gili

    On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla = wrote:
    On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, = cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> = wrote:
    To date, Android is the only = operating system that I've come across which
    exposes a public API for = hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only
    supports hardware = encoding for VP8.
    Can you please provide a reference for = this claim? That does not match
    my = understanding.

    -Ekr

    ___________________________= ____________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    = --Apple-Mail=_23DA9EAC-97D0-4A62-8D0D-54E9D2BE29F5-- From steve@tokbox.com Tue Jan 14 10:06:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440A81AE101 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:06:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZ0nJ8cgLmE9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f50.google.com (mail-pb0-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA711AE029 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id rq2so923792pbb.9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:05:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=a8snHtTS79+0uVScoTpDd12eEP9dAYOdYctnvVzKwNs=; b=gnPgeflcEpi8V8yLU/xsvUs2DlPyOlxXcbFyLu6+F3pj5Qp/CGwGJjYej/Cf08K7DK Uee01v0ulVQa3JYXz42a3yjERIuDWP7d7Qt7SmKsh8D+cWHvjckQCVIpDPjPGX29psEl oIHt3maOXia14vtP2O1Yk2onLfmIHAPQTaSeEQW6lSeRIncdZUwYmd+fgyDbrNUVsCh2 GE7qDxgy0fWpVj4ERHSI86yZ62dZH+Nh5tkofKTedo0kKt2hXV84vpJVbaJTH/mmV2Fa 54ShUepoKMbo2G2gIEDrglmj15wTlORHXuNdqAneZv6IJM8wF9+cLZ1l4qh63IZlpaWe YZMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnVlHq08Bx5Lh/2QuzPVFuCvmSP12dDaybzhbvHzLuhf4LhGfO2n5J5bIg7u+xsiQLf+aMj X-Received: by 10.66.149.73 with SMTP id ty9mr3445065pab.36.1389722751302; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from steves-mbp-2.tokbox.com ([216.38.134.120]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xv2sm2624978pbb.39.2014.01.14.10.05.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:05:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Steve McFarlin In-Reply-To: <52D54A13.8080008@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:05:47 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D54A13.8080008@bbs.darktech.org> To: cowwoc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:06:05 -0000 iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a = private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an = IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed = a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the = iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said = that =91is by design=92. On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > Thanks for this post. It *does* help. >=20 > My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can = see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is = iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they would expose = public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do = any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which = iPhone/iPad versions? >=20 > Thanks, > Gili >=20 > On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or = interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is = relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been = mixed in this conversation: >>=20 >> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services = through a gateway >>=20 >> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one = side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video = conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various = translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both = sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video = transcoding, can be avoided. >>=20 >> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer = have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential = in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those = current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use = and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. >>=20 >> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW = codec support >>=20 >> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs = matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer = have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way = for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help = much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more = relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs = accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support. >>=20 >> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video = related services and standards >>=20 >> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or = future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as = 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video = over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all = distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is = however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same = video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly = licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so = it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC. >>=20 >>=20 >> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant = to all players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" = interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video = codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, = cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Markus >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext = Christer >>> Holmberg >>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 >>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: = Comment >>> on Straw Poll replies) >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. = decode >>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device = can do >>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not = relevant to the >>> MTI discussion. >>>=20 >>> I don't agree. >>>=20 >>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality = will often >>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent = etc). But, >>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. >>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as = MTI >>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. >>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to = explain what >>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. >>>=20 >>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll = echo >>> him. >>>=20 >>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be = non-IMS >>> SIP networks. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> Christer >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc >>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] >>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM >>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment = on >>>> Straw Poll replies) >>>>=20 >>>> Keith, >>>>=20 >>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you = expect >>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just = don't get >>> this argument. >>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: >>>>=20 >>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for = doing >>> so, >>>> * Understand SDP, >>>> * Are WebRTC compliant >>>>=20 >>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically = begin >>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. >>>> Gili >>>>=20 >>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >>>>=20 >>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >>>>=20 >>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more = parties, and >>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the = rest >>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without = having to resort >>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but = it has a cost >>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which = can be >>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call = path >>> using that delay portion. >>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using >>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >>>> Keith >>>>=20 >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc >>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 >>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >>>>=20 >>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, >>> stephane.proust@orange.com >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict >>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to = old >>> features only? >>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because = they >>> look backwards and not forwards. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way = forward. >>>>=20 >>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of = old >>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who = could live >>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI = codec. >>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a = little bit >>> surprised that your are part of them. >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with = using *just* >>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on = both end- >>> points, great. If not, you can either: >>>> * Use H.261, or >>>> * Transcode, or >>>> * Drop Video >>>>=20 >>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are = forced to >>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as = simple as >>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your = device. >>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally = cheap. >>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but = rather to >>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against = everything >>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. >>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support >>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For = that >>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is = important when >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it = does). >>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available = royalty- >>> free. >>>> Gili >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 11:32:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAD11ADFB1 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZn2lH4eJZnI for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f178.google.com (mail-ie0-f178.google.com [209.85.223.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC56A1ADF9A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id x13so975368ief.37 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IUXtYwj7D/bcqXpWOSvmImW8FWA8cxP/N6qjuqznqd4=; b=IPxx3BdypnUYoy4P6gncVzmBvXenP0MvgnioVfG2WfflDE/oP4kxNuYw5rfJ251oDn OdYho0PZg72imXncT8y3rYnPHj35PZm1KzcdZEwAsZkgbMzWEX6IrkrM+P/F5L8pup+l 57r7HuyRDAIPfu5GCrvUBSREn2cv+bmgM6aNOred4wx+Q2hb6id0NSF979wnfgN43SU2 o1F/btEIe93Qj/BBNH/KefGehXmHfNXHMrfa7/9FeOxPXZM6gq7Xp5tr4/B5mQ0cxi09 Plyap3HWvN2K60SLb2IPsUm2uzAbiNLLUwchQBWmIYY+KqeSiaR3RWD2Dv4vwCL6KizE dLMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnxkdn/m/OzajFA1kfNki9I2+fohEFslGFCzw5EFO2GfrWKnVJGzrZxqpm1u/Q6BQmH3/CJ X-Received: by 10.42.112.6 with SMTP id w6mr128957icp.62.1389727921330; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kt2sm26418034igb.1.2014.01.14.11.31.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:32:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D590AD.3020405@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:31:57 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve McFarlin References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>, <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D54A13.8080008@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:32:16 -0000 I had a similar experience, which is why I don't expect iOS support anytime soon. Gili On 14/01/2014 1:05 PM, Steve McFarlin wrote: > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said that ‘is by design’. > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > >> Thanks for this post. It *does* help. >> >> My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions? >> >> Thanks, >> Gili >> >> On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation: >>> >>> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a gateway >>> >>> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided. >>> >>> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. >>> >>> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW codec support >>> >>> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support. >>> >>> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video related services and standards >>> >>> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC. >>> >>> >>> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Markus >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer >>>> Holmberg >>>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 >>>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment >>>> on Straw Poll replies) >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode >>>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do >>>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the >>>> MTI discussion. >>>> >>>> I don't agree. >>>> >>>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often >>>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, >>>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. >>>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI >>>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. >>>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what >>>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. >>>> >>>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo >>>> him. >>>> >>>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS >>>> SIP networks. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Christer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc >>>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] >>>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM >>>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on >>>>> Straw Poll replies) >>>>> >>>>> Keith, >>>>> >>>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect >>>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get >>>> this argument. >>>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: >>>>> >>>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing >>>> so, >>>>> * Understand SDP, >>>>> * Are WebRTC compliant >>>>> >>>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin >>>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. >>>>> Gili >>>>> >>>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. >>>>> >>>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. >>>>> >>>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and >>>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest >>>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort >>>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost >>>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be >>>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path >>>> using that delay portion. >>>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using >>>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. >>>>> Keith >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc >>>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 >>>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies >>>>> >>>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, >>>> stephane.proust@orange.com >>>> wrote: >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict >>>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old >>>> features only? >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they >>>> look backwards and not forwards. >>>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward. >>>>> >>>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old >>>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live >>>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. >>>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit >>>> surprised that your are part of them. >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html >>>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* >>>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end- >>>> points, great. If not, you can either: >>>>> * Use H.261, or >>>>> * Transcode, or >>>>> * Drop Video >>>>> >>>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to >>>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as >>>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. >>>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. >>>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to >>>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything >>>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. >>>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support >>>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that >>>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when >>>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). >>>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty- >>>> free. >>>>> Gili >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 11:35:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946B61AE1F6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuraMctK3wRQ for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f170.google.com (mail-ig0-f170.google.com [209.85.213.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACCE1ADF9A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f170.google.com with SMTP id m12so8289647iga.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=0rxCM4iNPkA2HdYvCVrBEOw7LvKSL4dVg8B1O0Xu3DE=; b=QpLfduwpyb55IV/G2ifIBcD+E++cDrY6I0S2OA7ZiRdz5BnscFNVJMeZTyjR2POFDr dZo6f/eCbbocnJ9B+3jAYk1hJ+3Osjmm1cHbCNfMSDIPBZAZCeefE5M4Id4b0Iuyx2jN AFiHkGoawJ3wYbW6sbVmQS3OeuIombfTj518TVX6s17aJ73cgRWhBMjYhC4HR3vpfV5s VdyCkSsuGpZFa8eHGiv6YbVxTC/tqWLz6N7Rxf7gyKWi8WmRPmY5FoX9y8RaZp9IxfJs ZBXphG6hCd3I4mJpdzk+f+BmE09Yk2HEj3xWsISp+psWtWvh8pLGtlhUGeVbXEu76Bqq yRkA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncw1H1Bwku/pQqtsl8R79S6mK5A9OowB0sRMb3dwg04b6iDg/l1+Eux0S0lARduQBn2TeV X-Received: by 10.42.40.83 with SMTP id k19mr87217ice.3.1389728111369; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a1sm2679979igo.0.2014.01.14.11.35.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:35:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D5916A.3070405@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:35:06 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080906010902040205070204" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:35:26 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080906010902040205070204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with video encoding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them could realistically interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a large enough market-share and video resolution to make them noteworthy? Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them now. Thanks, Gili On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote: > > > On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" > wrote: > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. > decode > > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device > can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not > relevant to the MTI discussion. > > > > > > I don't agree. > > > > > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway > functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features > (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video > transcoding. > > > > > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) > as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to > explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > > > > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so > I'll echo him. > > > > > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also > be non-IMS SIP networks. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not > widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all. > > > > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more > widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment. > > > > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without > a plugin (i think..) > > > > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since > it does not exist. > > > > CB > > > > I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it. > > I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that > either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at > scale and is worth discussing as an install base. > > CB > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org > ] on behalf of cowwoc > > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org ] > > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment on > > > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > > > > > Keith, > > > > > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you > expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I > just don't get this argument. > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs > for doing so, > > > > * Understand SDP, > > > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to > get released. > > > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more > parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user > and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, > without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes > transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to > pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but > removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that > delay portion. > > > > > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users > using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to > restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and > therefore to old features only? > > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded > because they look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way > forward. > > > > > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid > of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those > who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as > only MTI codec. > > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a > little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck > with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 > are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > > > > > * Use H.261, or > > > > * Transcode, or > > > > * Drop Video > > > > > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are > forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 > is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping > it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so > computationally cheap. > > > > > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, > but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and > against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to > support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. > For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is > important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, > I believe it does). > > > > > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available > royalty-free. > > > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --------------080906010902040205070204 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Hi,

    Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with video encoding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them could realistically interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a large enough market-share and video resolution to make them noteworthy?

    Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them now.

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote:


    On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the MTI discussion.
    > >
    > > I don't agree.
    > >
    > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding.
    > > >
    > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > > >
    > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    > >
    > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo him.
    > >
    > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS SIP networks.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > >
    > > Christer
    > >
    > >
    >
    > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all.
    >
    > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment.
    >
    > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a plugin (i think..)
    >
    > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it does not exist.
    >
    > CB
    >

    I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it.

    I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at scale and is worth discussing as an install base.

    CB
    > >
    > >
    > > > ________________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > > > Straw Poll replies)
    > > >
    > > > Keith,
    > > >
    > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.
    > > >
    > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    > > >    *   Understand SDP,
    > > >    *   Are WebRTC compliant
    > > >
    > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > > >
    > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > > >
    > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
    > > >
    > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > > >
    > > > Keith
    > > >
    > > > ________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > > >
    > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
    > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.
    > > >
    > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
    > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
    > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Use H.261, or
    > > >    *   Transcode, or
    > > >    *   Drop Video
    > > >
    > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > > >
    > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.
    > > >
    > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).
    > > >
    > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --------------080906010902040205070204-- From chris.cavigioli@intel.com Tue Jan 14 11:50:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4841AE23F for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:50:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nxt0-RCuBLyM for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga11.intel.com (mga11.intel.com [192.55.52.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391A81AE23A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by fmsmga102.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 14 Jan 2014 11:50:35 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,659,1384329600"; d="scan'208,217";a="465105167" Received: from fmsmsx106.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.19.9.37]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 14 Jan 2014 11:50:18 -0800 Received: from FMSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.185]) by FMSMSX106.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.6.177]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:50:18 -0800 From: "Cavigioli, Chris" To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) Thread-Index: AQHPEV/E45YZYiOEjk6uHk8n36USEZqEoI+A Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:50:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D5916A.3070405@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <52D5916A.3070405@bbs.darktech.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.200.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238219069FMSMSX110amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:50:50 -0000 --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238219069FMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why are we debating this? There are billions of Android devices shipped in= recent years and billions of PCs shipped in recent years. They can be pro= grammed with apps, browsers and sw programs to support WebRTC. From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:35 AM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on S= traw Poll replies) Hi, Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with video en= coding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them could realistical= ly interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a large enough market-sh= are and video resolution to make them noteworthy? Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them now. Thanks, Gili On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote: On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" > wrote: > > > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decod= e > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can d= o everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to= the MTI discussion. > > > > I don't agree. > > > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality wi= ll often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent et= c). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MT= I implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to expl= ain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll ec= ho him. > > > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non= -IMS SIP networks. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely dep= loyed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all. > > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widely d= eployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment. > > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a pl= ugin (i think..) > > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it do= es not exist. > > CB > I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it. I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that either= unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at scale and is= worth discussing as an install base. CB > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org= ] on behalf of cowwoc > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on > > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > > > Keith, > > > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expe= ct RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't g= et this argument. > > > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for d= oing so, > > > * Understand SDP, > > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically b= egin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, = and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest = of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to r= esort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but i= t has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, wh= ich can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the = call path using that delay portion. > > > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using l= egacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org> > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict We= bRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old feature= s only? > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because t= hey look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward= . > > > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old= technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could liv= e with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a litt= le bit surprised that your are part of them. > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with us= ing *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available= on both end-points, great. If not, you can either: > > > > > > * Use H.261, or > > > * Transcode, or > > > * Drop Video > > > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced= to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simp= le as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your devi= ce. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rat= her to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against eve= rything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *= existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reaso= n, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when brea= king it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalt= y-free. > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238219069FMSMSX110amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Why are we debating this?&n= bsp; There are billions of Android devices shipped in recent years and bill= ions of PCs shipped in recent years.  They can be programmed with apps, browsers and sw programs to support WebRTC.

     

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:35 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comme= nt on Straw Poll replies)

     

    Hi,

    Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with video en= coding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them could realistical= ly interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a large enough market-sh= are and video resolution to make them noteworthy?

    Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them now.=

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote:


    On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com&= gt; wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i= .e. decode
    > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy dev= ice can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not re= levant to the MTI discussion.
    > >
    > > I don't agree.
    > >
    > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway func= tionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continou= s consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > >
    > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other cod= ec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > > >
    > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for yo= u to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    > >
    > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I= 'll echo him.
    > >
    > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also = be non-IMS SIP networks.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > >
    > > Christer
    > >
    > >
    >
    > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely = deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all.
    >
    > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widel= y deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment.
    >
    > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a= plugin (i think..)
    >
    > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it= does not exist.
    >
    > CB
    >

    I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it. <= /o:p>

    I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that eit= her unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at scale and= is worth discussing as an install base.

    CB
    > >
    > >
    > > > ________________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [rtc= web-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darkt= ech.org]
    > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: C= omment on
    > > > Straw Poll replies)
    > > >
    > > > Keith,
    > > >
    > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do= you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I jus= t don't get this argument.
    > > >
    > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* = expose public APIs for doing so,
    > > >    *   Understand SDP,
    > > >    *   Are WebRTC compliant
    > > >
    > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will ma= gically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get re= leased.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > > >
    > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > > >
    > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more = parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and = the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without ha= ving to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will ha= ve to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but remov= es the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portio= n.
    > > >
    > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those user= s using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > > >
    > > > Keith
    > > >
    > > > ________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org&l= t;mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > > >
    > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to re= strict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol= d features only?
    > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded = because they look backwards and not forwards.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive wa= y forward.
    > > >
    > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get r= id of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who = could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  = MTI codec.
    > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "= od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI code= c)
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuc= k with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are = available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Use H.261, or
    > > >    *   Transcode, or
    > > >    *   Drop Video
    > > >
    > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and a= re forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 i= s as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64= and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because= it's so computationally cheap.
    > > >
    > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se= , but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and ag= ainst everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.<= br> > > >
    > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to = support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For t= hat reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important = when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).
    > > >
    > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 availab= le royalty-free.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

     

    --_000_E36D1A4AE0B6AA4091F1728D584A6AD238219069FMSMSX110amrcor_-- From asmicom@ngportal.com Tue Jan 14 12:03:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2B11ADF83; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BgktozeQZ0t; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp235.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp235.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42::50ed:84f2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC2A1AE17E; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from app02.ox.hosteurope.de ([92.51.170.9]); authenticated by wp235.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) id 1W3AD1-0007Ve-GH; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:03:35 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:03:35 +0100 (CET) From: "Michael Adeyeye, PhD" To: rtcweb-request@ietf.org, rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <365009553.9524.1389729815495.open-xchange@app02.ox.hosteurope.de> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9523_779084776.1389729815355" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.4.1-Rev11 X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;asmicom@ngportal.com;1389729817;8fb3ee58; Subject: Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb Digest, Vol 35, Issue 86 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Michael Adeyeye, PhD" List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:03:55 -0000 ------=_Part_9523_779084776.1389729815355 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Is there ever going to be a full report on the outcome of the poll? Or woul= d the outcome only be available during the next IETF meeting in London? Some of us would have loved to participate in the poll but we're not includ= ed in it. Notwithstanding, we have seen some of the WG members share similar view= s with us w.r.t. the de-facto codec(s) for WebRTC. We are looking forward to the report. Regards. Michael > On 14 January 2014 at 20:32 rtcweb-request@ietf.org wrote: > > > On 14 January 2014 at 19:00 Steve McFarlin wrote: > > > It looks like Blackberry has API=E2=80=99s for H.264 encoding/decoding [1= ], and > windows phone also looks like it may have API=E2=80=99s (I don=E2=80=99t = have enough time to > really look) [2]. > > > [1] > http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/core/com.qnx.doc.camera.= lib_ref/topic/manual/camera_h264avc.h_enums_overview.html > > [2] > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/develop/windows.phon= e.media.capture.h264encoderprofile(v=3Dvs.105).aspx > > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > > I stand corrected: > > http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html > > > > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching = that. > > > > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware > > encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... > > > > Gili > > > > On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc w= rote: > > > > > > > > > To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come ac= ross > > > > > > which > > > > exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it o= nly > > > > supports hardware encoding for VP8. > > > > > > > > > > Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That does no= t > > > > > > match > > > my understanding. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > On 14 January 2014 at 19:05 Steve McFarlin wrote: > > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a pri= vate > framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an IO channel > without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed a bug repor= t > with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the iOS SDK, but t= here > are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said that =E2=80=98is by d= esign=E2=80=99. > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > Thanks for this post. It *does* help. > > > > My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can = see > > the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS.= All > > other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public A= PIs > > for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the de= vices > > support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions= ? > > > > Thanks, > > Gili > > > > On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability= with > >> "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summariz= e > >> them below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation: > >> > >> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services thro= ugh a > >> gateway > >> > >> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one si= de of > >> the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferen= cing > >> equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translation= s > >> related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use t= he > >> same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can b= e > >> avoided. > >> > >> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have > >> brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in t= heir > >> video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current > >> non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and > >> deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. > >> > >> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW code= c > >> support > >> > >> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters.= For > >> instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It = is > >> clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party= apps > >> to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if a= nd > >> when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible f= or > >> the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it = does > >> matter what the HW can support. > >> > >> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video rela= ted > >> services and standards > >> > >> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future= ) > >> that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS > >> video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-= Fi to > >> a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct > >> apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however > >> useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video > >> codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing= ). > >> The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to= be > >> on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC. > >> > >> > >> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to= all > >> players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" > >> interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video cod= ecs. > >> How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc= .) is > >> up to each individual or organization to valuate. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Markus > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christ= er > >>> Holmberg > >>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 > >>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Commen= t > >>> on Straw Poll replies) > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. dec= ode > >>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can= do > >>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevan= t to > >>> the > >>> MTI discussion. > >>> > >>> I don't agree. > >>> > >>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality w= ill > >>>>> often > >>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc).= But, > >>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > >>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as M= TI > >>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > >>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to exp= lain > >>>> what > >>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > >>> > >>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll = echo > >>> him. > >>> > >>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be > >>> non-IMS > >>> SIP networks. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Christer > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > >>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > >>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > >>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment o= n > >>>> Straw Poll replies) > >>>> > >>>> Keith, > >>>> > >>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you exp= ect > >>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don'= t get > >>> this argument. > >>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > >>>> > >>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing > >>> so, > >>>> * Understand SDP, > >>>> * Are WebRTC compliant > >>>> > >>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically = begin > >>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > >>>> Gili > >>>> > >>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > >>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > >>>> > >>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > >>>> > >>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties,= and > >>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the res= t > >>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without havin= g to > >>> resort > >>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but i= t has > >>> a cost > >>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can= be > >>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call = path > >>> using that delay portion. > >>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using > >>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > >>>> Keith > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > >>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > >>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > >>>> > >>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, > >>> stephane.proust@orange.com > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict > >>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old > >>> features only? > >>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because = they > >>> look backwards and not forwards. > >>>> > >>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forwar= d. > >>>> > >>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of ol= d > >>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who coul= d > >>> live > >>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > >>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a lit= tle > >>>> bit > >>> surprised that your are part of them. > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with u= sing > >>>> *just* > >>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on b= oth > >>> end- > >>> points, great. If not, you can either: > >>>> * Use H.261, or > >>>> * Transcode, or > >>>> * Drop Video > >>>> > >>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are force= d to > >>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as si= mple > >>> as > >>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your devi= ce. > >>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap= . > >>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but ra= ther > >>>> to > >>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against > >>> everything > >>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > >>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > >>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For tha= t > >>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is importan= t > >>> when > >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it > >>> does). > >>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royal= ty- > >>> free. > >>>> Gili > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> rtcweb mailing list > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > On 14 January 2014 at 20:31 cowwoc wrote: > > > I had a similar experience, which is why I don't expect iOS support > anytime soon. > > Gili > > On 14/01/2014 1:05 PM, Steve McFarlin wrote: > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a > > private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an = IO > > channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed a= bug > > report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the iOS S= DK, > > but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said that =E2= =80=98is by > > design=E2=80=99. > > > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > >> Thanks for this post. It *does* help. > >> > >> My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can= see > >> the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS= . All > >> other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public = APIs > >> for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the > >> devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad > >> versions? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Gili > >> > >> On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperabilit= y > >>> with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to > >>> summarize them below since I think they have been mixed in this > >>> conversation: > >>> > >>> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services thr= ough > >>> a gateway > >>> > >>> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one s= ide > >>> of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video > >>> conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do vario= us > >>> translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if bo= th > >>> sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video > >>> transcoding, can be avoided. > >>> > >>> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer hav= e > >>> brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in = their > >>> video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current > >>> non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and > >>> deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. > >>> > >>> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW cod= ec > >>> support > >>> > >>> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters= . For > >>> instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It= is > >>> clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third part= y > >>> apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However= , if > >>> and when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possi= ble > >>> for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that cas= e it > >>> does matter what the HW can support. > >>> > >>> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video rel= ated > >>> services and standards > >>> > >>> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or futur= e) > >>> that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IM= S > >>> video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi= -Fi > >>> to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct > >>> apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however > >>> useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video > >>> codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensin= g). > >>> The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs t= o be > >>> on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC. > >>> > >>> > >>> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant t= o all > >>> players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" > >>> interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video co= decs. > >>> How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost et= c.) > >>> is up to each individual or organization to valuate. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Markus > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Chris= ter > >>>> Holmberg > >>>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 > >>>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comme= nt > >>>> on Straw Poll replies) > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. de= code > >>>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device ca= n do > >>>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not releva= nt to > >>>> the > >>>> MTI discussion. > >>>> > >>>> I don't agree. > >>>> > >>>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality = will > >>>>>> often > >>>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc)= . > >>>> But, > >>>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > >>>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as = MTI > >>>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > >>>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to ex= plain > >>>>> what > >>>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > >>>> > >>>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll= echo > >>>> him. > >>>> > >>>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be > >>>> non-IMS > >>>> SIP networks. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Christer > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > >>>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > >>>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > >>>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment = on > >>>>> Straw Poll replies) > >>>>> > >>>>> Keith, > >>>>> > >>>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you ex= pect > >>>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don= 't > >>>> get > >>>> this argument. > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > >>>>> > >>>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doin= g > >>>> so, > >>>>> * Understand SDP, > >>>>> * Are WebRTC compliant > >>>>> > >>>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically > >>>>> begin > >>>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released. > >>>>> Gili > >>>>> > >>>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > >>>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > >>>>> > >>>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > >>>>> > >>>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties= , and > >>>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the re= st > >>>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without havi= ng to > >>>> resort > >>>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but = it > >>>> has a cost > >>>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which ca= n be > >>>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call= path > >>>> using that delay portion. > >>>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using > >>>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > >>>>> Keith > >>>>> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > >>>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > >>>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, > >>>> stephane.proust@orange.com > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict > >>>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to ol= d > >>>> features only? > >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because= they > >>>> look backwards and not forwards. > >>>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forwa= rd. > >>>>> > >>>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of o= ld > >>>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who cou= ld > >>>> live > >>>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec. > >>>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a li= ttle > >>>>> bit > >>>> surprised that your are part of them. > >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > >>>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with = using > >>>>> *just* > >>>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on = both > >>>> end- > >>>> points, great. If not, you can either: > >>>>> * Use H.261, or > >>>>> * Transcode, or > >>>>> * Drop Video > >>>>> > >>>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forc= ed to > >>>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as s= imple > >>>> as > >>>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your dev= ice. > >>>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally chea= p. > >>>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but r= ather > >>>>> to > >>>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against > >>>> everything > >>>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > >>>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support > >>>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For th= at > >>>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is importa= nt > >>>> when > >>>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it > >>>> does). > >>>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available roya= lty- > >>>> free. > >>>>> Gili > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> rtcweb mailing list > >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > ------=_Part_9523_779084776.1389729815355 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20
    Hi Everyone,
    =20
    Is there ever going to be a full report on the outcome of the poll? Or w= ould the outcome only be available during the next IETF meeting in London?
    =20
    Some of us would have loved to participate in the poll but we're not= included in it. Notwithstanding, we have seen some of the WG members share= similar views with us w.r.t. the de-facto codec(s) for WebRTC.
    =20
     
    =20
    We are looking forward to the report. 
    =20
     
    =20
    Regards.
    =20
    Michael
    =20

    > On 14 January 2014 at 20:32 rtcweb-request@ietf.org wrote:
    >=20
    >=20

    > On 14 January 2014 at 19:00 Steve McFarlin <steve@tokbox= .com> wrote:
    >=20
    >=20
    > It looks like Blackberry has API=E2=80=99s for H.264 encodin= g/decoding [1], and windows phone also looks like it may have API=E2=80=99s= (I don=E2=80=99t have enough time to really look) [2].=20
    >=20
    >=20
    > [1] http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/core/co= m.qnx.doc.camera.lib_ref/topic/manual/camera_h264avc.h_enums_overview.html
    >=20
    > [2] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/dev= elop/windows.phone.media.capture.h264encoderprofile(v=3Dvs.105).aspx
    >=20
    >=20
    > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech= .org> wrote:
    >=20
    >=20
    > > I stand corrected: http://developer.android.com/guide/= appendix/media-formats.html
    > >=20
    > > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Tha= nks for catching that.
    > >=20
    > > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API = for hardware encoding/decoding of video outside of Android...
    > >=20
    > > Gili
    > >=20
    > > On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > >=20
    > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc &#= 60;cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    > > >=20
    > > > > > > To date, Android is the only o= perating system that I've come across which
    > > > > exposes a public API for hardware video en= coding/decoding, but it only
    > > > > supports hardware encoding for VP8.
    > > > >=20
    > > > > > > Can you please provide a refer= ence for this claim? That does not match
    > > > my understanding.
    > > >=20
    > > > -Ekr
    > > >=20
    > > > > __________________________________________= _____
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    > >=20

    > On 14 January 2014 at 19:05 Steve McFarlin <steve@tokbox= .com> wrote:
    >=20
    >=20
    > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but = this is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to crea= te an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I fi= led a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the= iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said tha= t =E2=80=98is by design=E2=80=99.
    >=20
    > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech= .org> wrote:
    >=20
    > > Thanks for this post. It *does* help.
    > >=20
    > > My original argument revolved around #2. The only plat= form where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operati= ng system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they wou= ld expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS= : do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which = iPhone/iPad versions?
    > >=20
    > > Thanks,
    > > Gili
    > >=20
    > > On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
    > >> Hi,
    > >>=20
    > >> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibilit= y or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services = is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been mix= ed in this conversation:
    > >>=20
    > >> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpo= ints or services through a gateway
    > >>=20
    > >> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compli= ant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/prop= rietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to = do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but = if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video t= ranscoding, can be avoided.
    > >>=20
    > >> I think this is the scenario that for instance Ke= ith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thoug= ht essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used = in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy",= but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC.
    > >>=20
    > >> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or &= #34;existing" device with HW codec support
    > >>=20
    > >> This is the scenario where open API's and acc= ess to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW= , far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is= no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not = help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more rele= vant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessib= le. In that case it does matter what the HW can support.
    > >>=20
    > >> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports = also other video related services and standards
    > >>=20
    > >> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a devic= e (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use cases= , such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming = video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all = distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is howe= ver useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video c= odec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing). The= abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on d= evices for those services regardless of WebRTC.
    > >>=20
    > >>=20
    > >> So, these are all different cases, and not all ar= e equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called &#= 34;legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to= video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality= , cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate.
    > >>=20
    > >> Regards,
    > >> Markus
    > >>=20
    > >>=20
    > >>> -----Original Message-----
    > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of ext Christer
    > >>> Holmberg
    > >>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51
    > >>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@iet= f.org
    > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy We= bRTC devices (Was: Comment
    > >>> on Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>=20
    > >>> Hi,
    > >>>=20
    > >>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy = device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > >>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is th= at unless a legacy device can do
    > >>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet poi= nts then it's not relevant to the
    > >>> MTI discussion.
    > >>>=20
    > >>> I don't agree.
    > >>>=20
    > >>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is = true that gateway functionality will often
    > >>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features= (continous consent etc). But,
    > >>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video t= ranscoding.
    > >>>> I don't understand. I don't thi= nk that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI
    > >>> implies that you would have to transcode in = the gateway.
    > >>>> If we're going to talk about gatewa= ys, it's important for you to explain what
    > >>> kind of devices are on either end. Please cl= arify.
    > >>>=20
    > >>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/device= s as an example, so I'll echo
    > >>> him.
    > >>>=20
    > >>> But, of course the networks/devices on the o= ther side could also be non-IMS
    > >>> SIP networks.
    > >>>=20
    > >>> Regards,
    > >>>=20
    > >>> Christer
    > >>>=20
    > >>>=20
    > >>>=20
    > >>>=20
    > >>>> _______________________________________= _
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] = on behalf of cowwoc
    > >>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > >>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > >>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.o= rg
    > >>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy W= ebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > >>>> Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> Keith,
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI= , how in the world do you expect
    > >>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing vid= eo equipment? I just don't get
    > >>> this argument.
    > >>>> As far as I can tell, the market share = of devices that:
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and*= expose public APIs for doing
    > >>> so,
    > >>>> * Understand SDP,
    > >>>> * Are WebRTC compliant
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that l= egacy devices will magically begin
    > >>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* p= roducts to get released.
    > >>>> Gili
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Ke= ith) wrote:
    > >>>> Legacy interoperability is important to= some of us.
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> It is not about preserving our existing= equipment.
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> It is about the fact the communication = involves two or more parties, and
    > >>> we want to enable video communication betwee= n RTCWEB user and the rest
    > >>> of the entities in the world that are capabl= e of video, without having to resort
    > >>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes trans= coding is possible, but it has a cost
    > >>> that someone will have to pay for, and it in= troduces delay, which can be
    > >>> catered for, but removes the possibility of = someone else in the call path
    > >>> using that delay portion.
    > >>>> Currently there are a considerable numb= er more of those users using
    > >>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > >>>> Keith
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> ________________________________
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@iet= f.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > >>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > >>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@i= etf.org>
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw = Poll replies
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM,
    > >>> stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stepha= ne.proust@orange.com>
    > >>> wrote:
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebR= TC, if you want to restrict
    > >>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems = only and therefore to old
    > >>> features only?
    > >>>> I'd like to suggest that such repli= es should be disregarded because they
    > >>> look backwards and not forwards.
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> I don't think that disregarding rep= lies is a constructive way forward.
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> However if you want to go that way, and= if you want to get rid of old
    > >>> technologies, let's start by disregardin= g replies from those who could live
    > >>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify = H.261 as only MTI codec.
    > >>>> Given your concerns about "old"= systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit
    > >>> surprised that your are part of them.
    > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rt= cweb/current/msg10798.html
    > >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but= NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing th= at you should be stuck with using *just*
    > >>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 = or VP8 are available on both end-
    > >>> points, great. If not, you can either:
    > >>>> * Use H.261, or
    > >>>> * Transcode, or
    > >>>> * Drop Video
    > >>>>=20
    > >>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose t= he first option and are forced to
    > >>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to = supporting H.261 is as simple as
    > >>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 an= d popping it on your device.
    > >>> You don't need hardware support because = it's so computationally cheap.
    > >>>> And finally, we're not objecting to= the use of H.264, per se, but rather to
    > >>> the fact that the majority of people who vot= e for it and against everything
    > >>> else use "legacy interoperability" a= s argument.
    > >>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we= wanted to do was to support
    > >>> *existing* devices then we would use *existi= ng* technologies. For that
    > >>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwa= rds compatibility is important when
    > >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in= this case, I believe it does).
    > >>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA = to make H.264 available royalty-
    > >>> free.
    > >>>> Gili
    > >>>>=20
    > >>> ____________________________________________= ___
    > >>> rtcweb mailing list
    > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    > >=20
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    >=20
    >=20

    > On 14 January 2014 at 20:31 cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.= org> wrote:
    >=20
    >=20
    > I had a similar experience, which is why I don't expect = iOS support=20
    > anytime soon.
    >=20
    > Gili
    >=20
    > On 14/01/2014 1:05 PM, Steve McFarlin wrote:
    > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding= , but this is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed t= o create an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X= . I filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder = in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and sa= id that =E2=80=98is by design=E2=80=99.
    > >
    > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.da= rktech.org> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Thanks for this post. It *does* help.
    > >>
    > >> My original argument revolved around #2. The only= platform where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the op= erating system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that the= y would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case o= f iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, w= hich iPhone/iPad versions?
    > >>
    > >> Thanks,
    > >> Gili
    > >>
    > >> On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com w= rote:
    > >>> Hi,
    > >>>
    > >>> There are several aspects how WebRTC compati= bility or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/serv= ices is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have bee= n mixed in this conversation:
    > >>>
    > >>> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC = endpoints or services through a gateway
    > >>>
    > >>> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC c= ompliant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323= /proprietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may nee= d to do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on,= but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the vi= deo transcoding, can be avoided.
    > >>>
    > >>> I think this is the scenario that for instan= ce Keith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people = thought essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely = used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy&= #34;, but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC.
    > >>>
    > >>> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy"= or "existing" device with HW codec support
    > >>>
    > >>> This is the scenario where open API's an= d access to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 = on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms the= re is no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does= not help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more= relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs acc= essible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support.
    > >>>
    > >>> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supp= orts also other video related services and standards
    > >>>
    > >>> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a = device (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use = cases, such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for strea= ming video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are= all distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is= however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same vi= deo codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing)= . The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be= on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>> So, these are all different cases, and not a= ll are equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is call= ed "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it com= es to video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec qu= ality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate.
    > >>>
    > >>> Regards,
    > >>> Markus
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>> -----Original Message-----
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@iet= f.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer
    > >>>> Holmberg
    > >>>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51
    > >>>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcwe= b@ietf.org
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no lega= cy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment
    > >>>> on Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Hi,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> It doesn't matter that your le= gacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > >>>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point = is that unless a legacy device can do
    > >>>> everything I mentioned in the top bulle= t points then it's not relevant to the
    > >>>> MTI discussion.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I don't agree.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>> Regarding the third bullet, i= t is true that gateway functionality will often
    > >>>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific fea= tures (continous consent etc). But,
    > >>>> such gateway wouldn't have to do vi= deo transcoding.
    > >>>>> I don't understand. I don'= t think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI
    > >>>> implies that you would have to transcod= e in the gateway.
    > >>>>> If we're going to talk about g= ateways, it's important for you to explain what
    > >>>> kind of devices are on either end. Plea= se clarify.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/d= evices as an example, so I'll echo
    > >>>> him.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> But, of course the networks/devices on = the other side could also be non-IMS
    > >>>> SIP networks.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Regards,
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Christer
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> __________________________________= ______
    > >>>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.= org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > >>>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > >>>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48= PM
    > >>>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@i= etf.org
    > >>>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no leg= acy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > >>>>> Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Keith,
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP a= s MTI, how in the world do you expect
    > >>>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existin= g video equipment? I just don't get
    > >>>> this argument.
    > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the market s= hare of devices that:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware = *and* expose public APIs for doing
    > >>>> so,
    > >>>>> * Understand SDP,
    > >>>>> * Are WebRTC compliant
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> is exactly zero. There is no way t= hat legacy devices will magically begin
    > >>>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *n= ew* products to get released.
    > >>>>> Gili
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keit= h (Keith) wrote:
    > >>>>> Legacy interoperability is importa= nt to some of us.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> It is not about preserving our exi= sting equipment.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> It is about the fact the communica= tion involves two or more parties, and
    > >>>> we want to enable video communication b= etween RTCWEB user and the rest
    > >>>> of the entities in the world that are c= apable of video, without having to resort
    > >>>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes = transcoding is possible, but it has a cost
    > >>>> that someone will have to pay for, and = it introduces delay, which can be
    > >>>> catered for, but removes the possibilit= y of someone else in the call path
    > >>>> using that delay portion.
    > >>>>> Currently there are a considerable= number more of those users using
    > >>>> legacy systems than there are using RTC= WEB.
    > >>>>> Keith
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> ________________________________
    > >>>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounce= s@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > >>>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > >>>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtc= web@ietf.org>
    > >>>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on S= traw Poll replies
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM,
    > >>>> stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:s= tephane.proust@orange.com>
    > >>>> wrote:
    > >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with= WebRTC, if you want to restrict
    > >>>> WebRTC to interoperability with old sys= tems only and therefore to old
    > >>>> features only?
    > >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such = replies should be disregarded because they
    > >>>> look backwards and not forwards.
    > >>>>> I don't think that disregardin= g replies is a constructive way forward.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> However if you want to go that way= , and if you want to get rid of old
    > >>>> technologies, let's start by disreg= arding replies from those who could live
    > >>>> with a WebRTC technology that would spe= cify H.261 as only MTI codec.
    > >>>>> Given your concerns about "old= " systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit
    > >>>> surprised that your are part of them.
    > >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w= eb/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > >>>>> (note that there is G.711 for audi= o but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> This is a fallacy. No one is argui= ng that you should be stuck with using *just*
    > >>>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H= .264 or VP8 are available on both end-
    > >>>> points, great. If not, you can either:
    > >>>>> * Use H.261, or
    > >>>>> * Transcode, or
    > >>>>> * Drop Video
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you l= ose the first option and are forced to
    > >>>> either transcode or drop video. The cos= t to supporting H.261 is as simple as
    > >>>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p= 64 and popping it on your device.
    > >>>> You don't need hardware support bec= ause it's so computationally cheap.
    > >>>>> And finally, we're not objecti= ng to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to
    > >>>> the fact that the majority of people wh= o vote for it and against everything
    > >>>> else use "legacy interoperability&#= 34; as argument.
    > >>>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If a= ll we wanted to do was to support
    > >>>> *existing* devices then we would use *e= xisting* technologies. For that
    > >>>> reason, I don't think maintaining b= ackwards compatibility is important when
    > >>>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (a= nd in this case, I believe it does).
    > >>>>> Alternatively, please convince MPE= G-LA to make H.264 available royalty-
    > >>>> free.
    > >>>>> Gili
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> _______________________________________= ________
    > >>>> rtcweb mailing list
    > >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r= tcweb
    > >> _______________________________________________
    > >> rtcweb mailing list
    > >> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    >=20
    >=20
    =20 ------=_Part_9523_779084776.1389729815355-- From tim@phonefromhere.com Tue Jan 14 12:56:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DEF1ADF99 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:56:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.506 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_96_XX=3.405, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wbNDF3IDt3Y5 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4962F1AE150 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 56691 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2014 20:56:03 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 14496 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2014 20:56:03 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD1B18A04C0; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:56:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.157.70] (unknown [192.67.4.35]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4B6518A0451; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:56:02 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2FA248CE-09D2-41AC-B19E-25ABC0ED1FD6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) From: tim panton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <761C01D0-71A5-46CE-B641-FBB7450DB698@phonefromhere.com> References: <20131215075757.GB3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <52AE54F8.5070300@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE759C.7020209@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE9129.8090702@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE9E0C.9060707@bbs.darktech.org> <20131216170820.GD82971@verdi> <20131220113631.GA70585@verdi> <52B47196.6060400@bbs.darktech.org> <52B484AB.5020102@bbs.darktech.org> <52B4B85F.2070209@dcrocker.net> <52B73B81.6050400@dcrocker.net> To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Is there room for a compromise? what about no MTI? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:56:17 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:40:52 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:56:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2FA248CE-09D2-41AC-B19E-25ABC0ED1FD6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 22 Dec 2013, at 22:28, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > To take a simple example, a number of phones do not have front-facing > cameras and also have processors that are incapable of doing an > adequate video call (especially if we select a codec for which they > don't have adequate hardware support). In that case, it might be > reasonable to simply not offer video at all on such devices. In such > a case, would it really make sense to call such devices non-compliant > for not implementing an MTI video codec that they wouldn't negotiate > in any case? That=92s a whole set of assumptions that the browser vendor is loading = on very little data. - So just because there is no forward facing camera we assume there will = be no possible webRTC video usage ? - I disagree - it may not do for the classic f2f call, but = I=92ve seen plenty of show-and tell use cases where the rear cam is the one sending video. As for the incapable hardware example, again there are plenty of 1 way = video call cases=20 (think amazon mayday), the hardware may be able to decode something it = can=92t encode. As I noted a while back SDP OA is clumsy at expressing these = asymmetrical nuances, but I=92ve been assured it is possible. Also I notice that the Raspberry Pi which has h264 in silicon has = recently started supporting VP8 by using the GPU to accelerate some of the encode operations. - An = example a device that seems not to support a given codec, but with a firmware upgrade can. It would be a shame if (for example) firefox on the Pi didn=92t offer = webRTC video just because at some point one of the devs had had a Pi with no camera module or where VP8 = was too slow. ;tldr - We need to leave these decisions to app developers and not assume = anything we don=92t absolutely have to. Tim. --Apple-Mail=_2FA248CE-09D2-41AC-B19E-25ABC0ED1FD6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
    On 22 Dec 2013, at 22:28, Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:


    To take a simple example, a number of phones do not have = front-facing
    cameras and also have processors that are incapable of = doing an
    adequate video call (especially if we select a codec for = which they
    don't have adequate hardware support). In that case, it = might be
    reasonable to simply not offer video at all on such devices. =  In such
    a case, would it really make sense to call such devices = non-compliant
    for not implementing an MTI video codec that they = wouldn't negotiate
    in any = case?

    That=92s a whole set of = assumptions that the browser vendor is loading on very little = data.

    - So just because there is no forward = facing camera we assume there will be no possible webRTC
    video = usage ? - I disagree - it may not do for the classic f2f call, but I=92ve = seen plenty of show-and tell
    use cases where the rear cam is = the one sending video.

    As for the incapable = hardware example, again there are plenty of 1 way video call = cases 
    (think amazon mayday), the hardware may be able to = decode something it can=92t encode.

    As I noted = a while back SDP OA is clumsy at expressing these asymmetrical nuances, = but I=92ve
    been assured it is = possible.

    Also I notice that the Raspberry Pi = which has h264 in silicon has recently started supporting = VP8
    by using the GPU to accelerate some of the encode = operations. - An example a device that seems not
    to support a = given codec, but with a firmware upgrade = can.

    It would be a shame if (for example) = firefox on the Pi didn=92t offer webRTC video just because at = some
    point one of the devs had had a Pi with no camera module = or where VP8 was too slow.

    ;tldr
    - We = need to leave these decisions to app developers and not assume anything = we don=92t absolutely have = to.



    Tim.
    =
    = --Apple-Mail=_2FA248CE-09D2-41AC-B19E-25ABC0ED1FD6-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 13:26:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABE01AE230 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:26:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FP2M6Ma7ADb1 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f178.google.com (mail-ig0-f178.google.com [209.85.213.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89311ADF99 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id uq10so2731600igb.5 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:25:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=qHJM3bHl6y0kUyJ8WFx/AUclh9DEq7PEWKZC63lt9kk=; b=Ssubjzc03ziB8SmFZlGu1ffD77xFpfLfbo7ZPHQvvSeq9NkJG1tXzlzlG6hdUZQtgM Ws34b8hYY9cUjth4gVhXsJnnSBFVh/+1bnKXqg57mWj5i4BcgJ0vLk+ykjG8z8XkBj5C djcg2/0h0+fl4/3ohcnnBv7qIyeqSfYoV/Zopmhw628PbkRT9Nt/DNJVQW/fGzygQsmP ePtAirhSgwu44u93TU0ve9pTjK8lrRpzmpCVS5m4e68L+yqkR6Q8AKEzZHFqwsgAwn3d Y1BiJNmkUByPCKRqmIvdYL5JcXDIuBpZyz9leuufcNgLLrqAGBtwrghrE8tkxmuA9d1u kJuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlalQIyDZB6hMzeu95N0X2bDnnVqXvMZkeyfbTb2G5KWZwJbn/nz4lRlRyNHRjriddDqVJA X-Received: by 10.50.4.9 with SMTP id g9mr5363123igg.22.1389734751032; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x6sm25866370igb.3.2014.01.14.13.25.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:25:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D5AB5A.7020205@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:25:46 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cavigioli, Chris" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F8A12@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D46F2B.9040904@bbs.darktech.org> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C5F93DE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52D5916A.3070405@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050901010409060800080608" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:26:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050901010409060800080608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many people who answered the straw poll argued that we must use H.264 for the sake of interoperability with legacy devices that only support H.264. I am trying to explore this argument. Android is not an H.264-only device, therefore it is not relevant to this discussion. Gili On 14/01/2014 2:50 PM, Cavigioli, Chris wrote: > > Why are we debating this? There are billions of Android devices > shipped in recent years and billions of PCs shipped in recent years. > They can be programmed with apps, browsers and sw programs to support > WebRTC. > > *From:*rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *cowwoc > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:35 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment on Straw Poll replies) > > Hi, > > Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with > video encoding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them > could realistically interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a > large enough market-share and video resolution to make them noteworthy? > > Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them > now. > > Thanks, > Gili > > On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote: > > > On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" > wrote: > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube > (i.e. decode > > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy > device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then > it's not relevant to the MTI discussion. > > > > > > I don't agree. > > > > > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway > functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific > features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have > to do video transcoding. > > > > > > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other > codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > > > > > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for > you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > > > > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, > so I'll echo him. > > > > > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could > also be non-IMS SIP networks. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not > widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production > at all. > > > > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more > widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment. > > > > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls > without a plugin (i think..) > > > > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base > since it does not exist. > > > > CB > > > > I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it. > > I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss > that either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in > production at scale and is worth discussing as an install base. > > CB > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org > ] on behalf of cowwoc > > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org ] > > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment on > > > > Straw Poll replies) > > > > > > > > Keith, > > > > > > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do > you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video > equipment? I just don't get this argument. > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > > > > > > > * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public > APIs for doing so, > > > > * Understand SDP, > > > > * Are WebRTC compliant > > > > > > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* > products to get released. > > > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > > > > > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > > > > > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more > parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB > user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of > video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. > Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will > have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered > for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path > using that delay portion. > > > > > > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those > users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > > > > > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to > restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and > therefore to old features only? > > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded > because they look backwards and not forwards. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive > way forward. > > > > > > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get > rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from > those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify > H.261 as only MTI codec. > > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, > I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them. > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be > stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if > H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you > can either: > > > > > > > > * Use H.261, or > > > > * Transcode, or > > > > * Drop Video > > > > > > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and > are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to > supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling > https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You > don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap. > > > > > > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per > se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote > for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" > as argument. > > > > > > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to > support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* > technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards > compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable > benefit (and in this case, I believe it does). > > > > > > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 > available royalty-free. > > > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --------------050901010409060800080608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Many people who answered the straw poll argued that we must use H.264 for the sake of interoperability with legacy devices that only support H.264. I am trying to explore this argument.

    Android is not an H.264-only device, therefore it is not relevant to this discussion.

    Gili

    On 14/01/2014 2:50 PM, Cavigioli, Chris wrote:

    Why are we debating this?  There are billions of Android devices shipped in recent years and billions of PCs shipped in recent years.  They can be programmed with apps, browsers and sw programs to support WebRTC.

     

    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:35 AM
    To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies)

     

    Hi,

    Can we please make a concrete list of how many legacy devices with video encoding/decoding capability have shipped? How many of them could realistically interoperate with WebRTC? How many of them have a large enough market-share and video resolution to make them noteworthy?

    Please, if your product(s) fall into this category please mention them now.

    Thanks,
    Gili

    On 14/01/2014 9:59 AM, Cb B wrote:


    On Jan 14, 2014 6:53 AM, "Cb B" <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > >It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > > >H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the MTI discussion.
    > >
    > > I don't agree.
    > >
    > > >> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But, such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding.
    > > >
    > > > I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > > >
    > > > If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    > >
    > > I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo him.
    > >
    > > But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS SIP networks.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > >
    > > Christer
    > >
    > >
    >
    > You gave IMS as an example, but afaik IMS video calling is not widely deployed. Afaik, it is not deployed at scale in production at all.
    >
    > In fact, there may be a case that WebRTC voice and video is more widely deployed than any pure IMS 3gpp deployment.
    >
    > I lately noticed that Facebook now has voice and video calls without a plugin (i think..)
    >
    > So perhaps IMS video is not a good example of an install base since it does not exist.
    >
    > CB
    >

    I have not tested facebook video calling, so lets not discuss it.

    I have also never tested IMS video calling. So lets not discuss that either unless you have a noteworthy example that is in production at scale and is worth discussing as an install base.

    CB
    > >
    > >
    > > > ________________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > > > [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > > > Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > > > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > > Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > > > Straw Poll replies)
    > > >
    > > > Keith,
    > > >
    > > > Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get this argument.
    > > >
    > > > As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing so,
    > > >    *   Understand SDP,
    > > >    *   Are WebRTC compliant
    > > >
    > > > is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > > > On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > > > Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > > >
    > > > It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > > >
    > > > It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path using that delay portion.
    > > >
    > > > Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > > >
    > > > Keith
    > > >
    > > > ________________________________
    > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > > > Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > > >
    > > > On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old features only?
    > > > I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they look backwards and not forwards.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.
    > > >
    > > > However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only  MTI codec.
    > > > Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit surprised that your are part of them.
    > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > > > (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just* H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-points, great. If not, you can either:
    > > >
    > > >    *   Use H.261, or
    > > >    *   Transcode, or
    > > >    *   Drop Video
    > > >
    > > > By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device. You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > > >
    > > > And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.
    > > >
    > > > WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).
    > > >
    > > > Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-free.
    > > >
    > > > Gili
    > > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

     


    --------------050901010409060800080608-- From cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org Tue Jan 14 13:27:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AC71AE2AA for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Op2k_04A0Ccg for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f180.google.com (mail-ig0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB411AE25A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f180.google.com with SMTP id m12so2740190iga.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=iZLujAkMOwgtzeFQhtHKhr5oXjaA+sWV2UY8OCwJuzc=; b=LLlIaCQlzF3wRQvHqc1GADm27/Lqv5py/IruA0z5bRqAqDRPguGPrPu6pn1cX8z6mP vaHJ8Ib8c3JPRfPzHIX+oGQNE1HRsknui2YX4HiohgrqHCtzZV6JNmkhThwV7ruNKoRd rpd98maH+YjCpQZ4cZaf4aauPg8kqTt5vjOVjA4Cz/34LhlSQzVe/zOryt2fZLD9hOk6 dG/GZdwxnc2GINgMSQ+HZx67gijKOoHIWpUHW0FBVRYIUe34xdAV5670EqJq8o56Hft3 ztcRfWCK8FWuAks4HJfp1GQoMJrFStAo7+0MV2urYNaBauz7S665y6MjG6CIgttT/Yoh 5drA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmFhiJXnR+ELIuYUvqVZAQV64gdaMXgs82L2DGm+m5dmQic+raBMliuNCJcjacEBPJvXA+/ X-Received: by 10.50.117.5 with SMTP id ka5mr5213807igb.3.1389734849638; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm3146628igc.4.2014.01.14.13.27.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:27:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D5ABBD.5080904@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:27:25 -0500 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <365009553.9524.1389729815495.open-xchange@app02.ox.hosteurope.de> In-Reply-To: <365009553.9524.1389729815495.open-xchange@app02.ox.hosteurope.de> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090807000505040500070804" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb Digest, Vol 35, Issue 86 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:27:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090807000505040500070804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, The results are already out. See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg11084.html Gili On 14/01/2014 3:03 PM, Michael Adeyeye, PhD wrote: > Hi Everyone, > Is there ever going to be a full report on the outcome of the poll? Or > would the outcome only be available during the next IETF meeting in > London? > Some of us would have loved to participate in the poll but we're not > included in it. Notwithstanding, we have seen some of the WG members > share similar views with us w.r.t. the de-facto codec(s) for WebRTC. > We are looking forward to the report. > Regards. > Michael > > > On 14 January 2014 at 20:32 rtcweb-request@ietf.org wrote: > > > > > > > On 14 January 2014 at 19:00 Steve McFarlin wrote: > > > > > > It looks like Blackberry has API's for H.264 encoding/decoding [1], > and windows phone also looks like it may have API's (I don't have > enough time to really look) [2]. > > > > > > [1] > http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/core/com.qnx.doc.camera.lib_ref/topic/manual/camera_h264avc.h_enums_overview.html > > > > > [2] > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/develop/windows.phone.media.capture.h264encoderprofile(v=vs.105).aspx > > > > > > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > > > > > I stand corrected: > http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html > > > > > > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for > catching that. > > > > > > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware > encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... > > > > > > Gili > > > > > > On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > To date, Android is the only operating system that I've > come across which > > > > > exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but > it only > > > > > supports hardware encoding for VP8. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That > does not match > > > > my understanding. > > > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > On 14 January 2014 at 19:05 Steve McFarlin wrote: > > > > > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is > a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create > an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I > filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder > in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me > and said that 'is by design'. > > > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > > > Thanks for this post. It *does* help. > > > > > > My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I > can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating > system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they > would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the > case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of > H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Gili > > > > > > On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or > interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is > relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been > mixed in this conversation: > > >> > > >> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services > through a gateway > > >> > > >> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on > one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary > video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do > various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, > but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. > the video transcoding, can be avoided. > > >> > > >> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer > have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential > in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those > current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their > use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. > > >> > > >> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW > codec support > > >> > > >> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs > matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer > have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way > for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not > help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more > relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs > accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support. > > >> > > >> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video > related services and standards > > >> > > >> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or > future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as > 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video > over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all > distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is > however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the > same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, > possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate > H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of > WebRTC. > > >> > > >> > > >> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally > relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called > "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to > video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec > quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Markus > > >> > > >> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext > Christer > > >>> Holmberg > > >>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 > > >>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment > > >>> on Straw Poll replies) > > >>> > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube > (i.e. decode > > >>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy > device can do > > >>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not > relevant to the > > >>> MTI discussion. > > >>> > > >>> I don't agree. > > >>> > > >>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway > functionality will often > > >>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent > etc). But, > > >>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > >>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) > as MTI > > >>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > >>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you > to explain what > > >>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > >>> > > >>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so > I'll echo > > >>> him. > > >>> > > >>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also > be non-IMS > > >>> SIP networks. > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> > > >>> Christer > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > > >>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > >>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > >>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment on > > >>>> Straw Poll replies) > > >>>> > > >>>> Keith, > > >>>> > > >>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do > you expect > > >>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just > don't get > > >>> this argument. > > >>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > >>>> > > >>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for > doing > > >>> so, > > >>>> * Understand SDP, > > >>>> * Are WebRTC compliant > > >>>> > > >>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin > > >>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get > released. > > >>>> Gili > > >>>> > > >>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > >>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > >>>> > > >>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > >>>> > > >>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more > parties, and > > >>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and > the rest > > >>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without > having to resort > > >>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, > but it has a cost > > >>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, > which can be > > >>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the > call path > > >>> using that delay portion. > > >>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users > using > > >>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > >>>> Keith > > >>>> > > >>>> ________________________________ > > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > >>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > >>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > >>>> > > >>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, > > >>> stephane.proust@orange.com > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict > > >>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore > to old > > >>> features only? > > >>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded > because they > > >>> look backwards and not forwards. > > >>>> > > >>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way > forward. > > >>>> > > >>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid > of old > > >>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who > could live > > >>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI > codec. > > >>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm > a little bit > > >>> surprised that your are part of them. > > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck > with using *just* > > >>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available > on both end- > > >>> points, great. If not, you can either: > > >>>> * Use H.261, or > > >>>> * Transcode, or > > >>>> * Drop Video > > >>>> > > >>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are > forced to > > >>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is > as simple as > > >>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your > device. > > >>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally > cheap. > > >>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, > but rather to > > >>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against > everything > > >>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > >>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to > support > > >>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. > For that > > >>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is > important when > > >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I > believe it does). > > >>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available > royalty- > > >>> free. > > >>>> Gili > > >>>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> rtcweb mailing list > > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > On 14 January 2014 at 20:31 cowwoc wrote: > > > > > > I had a similar experience, which is why I don't expect iOS support > > anytime soon. > > > > Gili > > > > On 14/01/2014 1:05 PM, Steve McFarlin wrote: > > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this > is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to > create an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in > OS-X. I filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the > public folder in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer > got back to me and said that 'is by design'. > > > > > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > > > >> Thanks for this post. It *does* help. > > >> > > >> My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where > I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating > system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they > would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the > case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of > H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions? > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Gili > > >> > > >> On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or > interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is > relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been > mixed in this conversation: > > >>> > > >>> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or > services through a gateway > > >>> > > >>> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on > one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary > video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do > various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, > but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. > the video transcoding, can be avoided. > > >>> > > >>> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and > Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought > essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely > used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all > "legacy", but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC. > > >>> > > >>> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with > HW codec support > > >>> > > >>> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs > matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer > have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way > for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not > help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more > relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs > accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support. > > >>> > > >>> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other > video related services and standards > > >>> > > >>> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or > future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as > 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video > over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all > distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is > however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the > same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, > possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate > H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of > WebRTC. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally > relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called > "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to > video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec > quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate. > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> Markus > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext > Christer > > >>>> Holmberg > > >>>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51 > > >>>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment > > >>>> on Straw Poll replies) > > >>>> > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube > (i.e. decode > > >>>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy > device can do > > >>>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not > relevant to the > > >>>> MTI discussion. > > >>>> > > >>>> I don't agree. > > >>>> > > >>>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway > functionality will often > > >>>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent > etc). But, > > >>>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding. > > >>>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other > codec) as MTI > > >>>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway. > > >>>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you > to explain what > > >>>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify. > > >>>> > > >>>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so > I'll echo > > >>>> him. > > >>>> > > >>>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could > also be non-IMS > > >>>> SIP networks. > > >>>> > > >>>> Regards, > > >>>> > > >>>> Christer > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc > > >>>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org] > > >>>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM > > >>>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: > Comment on > > >>>>> Straw Poll replies) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Keith, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do > you expect > > >>>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I > just don't get > > >>>> this argument. > > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for > doing > > >>>> so, > > >>>>> * Understand SDP, > > >>>>> * Are WebRTC compliant > > >>>>> > > >>>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will > magically begin > > >>>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get > released. > > >>>>> Gili > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > > >>>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more > parties, and > > >>>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and > the rest > > >>>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without > having to resort > > >>>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, > but it has a cost > > >>>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, > which can be > > >>>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the > call path > > >>>> using that delay portion. > > >>>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users > using > > >>>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB. > > >>>>> Keith > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc > > >>>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39 > > >>>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM, > > >>>> stephane.proust@orange.com > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to > restrict > > >>>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore > to old > > >>>> features only? > > >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded > because they > > >>>> look backwards and not forwards. > > >>>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way > forward. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid > of old > > >>>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those > who could live > > >>>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI > codec. > > >>>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm > a little bit > > >>>> surprised that your are part of them. > > >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html > > >>>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck > with using *just* > > >>>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are > available on both end- > > >>>> points, great. If not, you can either: > > >>>>> * Use H.261, or > > >>>>> * Transcode, or > > >>>>> * Drop Video > > >>>>> > > >>>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are > forced to > > >>>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is > as simple as > > >>>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on > your device. > > >>>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally > cheap. > > >>>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, > but rather to > > >>>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and > against everything > > >>>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument. > > >>>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to > support > > >>>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. > For that > > >>>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is > important when > > >>>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I > believe it does). > > >>>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available > royalty- > > >>>> free. > > >>>>> Gili > > >>>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> rtcweb mailing list > > >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> rtcweb mailing list > > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --------------090807000505040500070804 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Michael,

    The results are already out. See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg11084.html

    Gili

    On 14/01/2014 3:03 PM, Michael Adeyeye, PhD wrote:
    Hi Everyone,
    Is there ever going to be a full report on the outcome of the poll? Or would the outcome only be available during the next IETF meeting in London?
    Some of us would have loved to participate in the poll but we're not included in it. Notwithstanding, we have seen some of the WG members share similar views with us w.r.t. the de-facto codec(s) for WebRTC.
     
    We are looking forward to the report. 
     
    Regards.
    Michael

    > On 14 January 2014 at 20:32 rtcweb-request@ietf.org wrote:
    >
    >

    > On 14 January 2014 at 19:00 Steve McFarlin <steve@tokbox.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > It looks like Blackberry has API’s for H.264 encoding/decoding [1], and windows phone also looks like it may have API’s (I don’t have enough time to really look) [2].
    >
    >
    > [1] http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/core/com.qnx.doc.camera.lib_ref/topic/manual/camera_h264avc.h_enums_overview.html
    >
    > [2] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/develop/windows.phone.media.capture.h264encoderprofile(v=vs.105).aspx
    >
    >
    > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:15 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    >
    >
    > > I stand corrected: http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html
    > >
    > > Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching that.
    > >
    > > I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware encoding/decoding of video outside of Android...
    > >
    > > Gili
    > >
    > > On 13/01/2014 11:04 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > >
    > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > > > To date, Android is the only operating system that I've come across which
    > > > > exposes a public API for hardware video encoding/decoding, but it only
    > > > > supports hardware encoding for VP8.
    > > > >
    > > > > > > Can you please provide a reference for this claim? That does not match
    > > > my understanding.
    > > >
    > > > -Ekr
    > > >
    > > > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    > >

    > On 14 January 2014 at 19:05 Steve McFarlin <steve@tokbox.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said that ‘is by design’.
    >
    > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    >
    > > Thanks for this post. It *does* help.
    > >
    > > My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions?
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > Gili
    > >
    > > On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation:
    > >>
    > >> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a gateway
    > >>
    > >> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided.
    > >>
    > >> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC.
    > >>
    > >> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW codec support
    > >>
    > >> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support.
    > >>
    > >> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video related services and standards
    > >>
    > >> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate.
    > >>
    > >> Regards,
    > >> Markus
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>> -----Original Message-----
    > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer
    > >>> Holmberg
    > >>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51
    > >>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment
    > >>> on Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>
    > >>> Hi,
    > >>>
    > >>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > >>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do
    > >>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the
    > >>> MTI discussion.
    > >>>
    > >>> I don't agree.
    > >>>
    > >>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often
    > >>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But,
    > >>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding.
    > >>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI
    > >>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > >>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what
    > >>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    > >>>
    > >>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo
    > >>> him.
    > >>>
    > >>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS
    > >>> SIP networks.
    > >>>
    > >>> Regards,
    > >>>
    > >>> Christer
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>> ________________________________________
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > >>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > >>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > >>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > >>>> Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Keith,
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect
    > >>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get
    > >>> this argument.
    > >>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > >>>>
    > >>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing
    > >>> so,
    > >>>> * Understand SDP,
    > >>>> * Are WebRTC compliant
    > >>>>
    > >>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin
    > >>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.
    > >>>> Gili
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > >>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and
    > >>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest
    > >>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort
    > >>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost
    > >>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be
    > >>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path
    > >>> using that delay portion.
    > >>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using
    > >>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > >>>> Keith
    > >>>>
    > >>>> ________________________________
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > >>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > >>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM,
    > >>> stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com>
    > >>> wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict
    > >>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old
    > >>> features only?
    > >>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they
    > >>> look backwards and not forwards.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old
    > >>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live
    > >>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec.
    > >>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit
    > >>> surprised that your are part of them.
    > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > >>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just*
    > >>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-
    > >>> points, great. If not, you can either:
    > >>>> * Use H.261, or
    > >>>> * Transcode, or
    > >>>> * Drop Video
    > >>>>
    > >>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to
    > >>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as
    > >>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device.
    > >>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > >>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to
    > >>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything
    > >>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.
    > >>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support
    > >>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that
    > >>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when
    > >>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).
    > >>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-
    > >>> free.
    > >>>> Gili
    > >>>>
    > >>> _______________________________________________
    > >>> rtcweb mailing list
    > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > rtcweb mailing list
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    >
    >

    > On 14 January 2014 at 20:31 cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    >
    >
    > I had a similar experience, which is why I don't expect iOS support
    > anytime soon.
    >
    > Gili
    >
    > On 14/01/2014 1:05 PM, Steve McFarlin wrote:
    > > iOS has the VideoToolbox API for H.264 hardware coding, but this is a private framework. User mode applications are not allowed to create an IO channel without a Jailbreak. The framework is public in OS-X. I filed a bug report with Apple as the framework is in the public folder in the iOS SDK, but there are no headers. An engineer got back to me and said that ‘is by design’.
    > >
    > > On Jan 14, 2014, at 6:30 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Thanks for this post. It *does* help.
    > >>
    > >> My original argument revolved around #2. The only platform where I can see the possibility of WebRTC being baked into the operating system is iOS. All other operating systems are open enough that they would expose public APIs for doing this in user space. Now, in the case of iOS: do any of the devices support hardware *encoding* of H.264? If so, which iPhone/iPad versions?
    > >>
    > >> Thanks,
    > >> Gili
    > >>
    > >> On 14/01/2014 4:49 AM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote:
    > >>> Hi,
    > >>>
    > >>> There are several aspects how WebRTC compatibility or interoperability with "legacy" or non-WebRTC devices/services is relevant. I try to summarize them below since I think they have been mixed in this conversation:
    > >>>
    > >>> 1.) WebRTC interoperability with non-WebRTC endpoints or services through a gateway
    > >>>
    > >>> In this scenario we have WebRTC and WebRTC compliant devices on one side of the gateway, and for instance SIP/IMS/H.323/proprietary video conferencing equipment on the other. The gateway may need to do various translations related to e.g. ICE, DTLS-SRTP, SDP and so on, but if both sides use the same video codec, the heaviest part, i.e. the video transcoding, can be avoided.
    > >>>
    > >>> I think this is the scenario that for instance Keith and Christer have brought up in this thread, and that some people thought essential in their video codec straw poll answers. H.264 is widely used in those current non-WebRTC systems. And they are not all "legacy", but their use and deployment may grow in parallel to WebRTC.
    > >>>
    > >>> 2.) WebRTC implemented on a "legacy" or "existing" device with HW codec support
    > >>>
    > >>> This is the scenario where open API's and access to HW codecs matters. For instance most mobile devices have H.264 on HW, far fewer have VP8. It is clear that currently on many platforms there is no way for third party apps to use these codecs, so right now it does not help much. However, if and when WebRTC and real-time video become more relevant, it is possible for the platform vendors to make those codecs accessible. In that case it does matter what the HW can support.
    > >>>
    > >>> 3.) WebRTC implemented on a device that supports also other video related services and standards
    > >>>
    > >>> In this scenario WebRTC is implemented on a device (existing or future) that also supports other video services or use cases, such as 3GPP IMS video services or Wi-Fi Alliane Miracast (for streaming video over Wi-Fi to a TV screen, for instance). In this case these are all distinct apps/services that do not interoperate with each other. It is however useful the HW, OS and device vendor if all of them use the same video codec. That reduces cost (development, maintenance, possibly licensing). The abovementioned IMS and WFA standards mandate H.264, so it needs to be on devices for those services regardless of WebRTC.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>> So, these are all different cases, and not all are equally relevant to all players. But they all show that what is called "legacy" interoperability/compatibility does matter, when it comes to video codecs. How much it matters compared to other factors (codec quality, cost etc.) is up to each individual or organization to valuate.
    > >>>
    > >>> Regards,
    > >>> Markus
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>> -----Original Message-----
    > >>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Christer
    > >>>> Holmberg
    > >>>> Sent: 14 January, 2014 09:51
    > >>>> To: cowwoc; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment
    > >>>> on Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Hi,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> It doesn't matter that your legacy device can play YouTube (i.e. decode
    > >>>>> H.264 in a web browser). My point is that unless a legacy device can do
    > >>>> everything I mentioned in the top bullet points then it's not relevant to the
    > >>>> MTI discussion.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I don't agree.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>> Regarding the third bullet, it is true that gateway functionality will often
    > >>>> be needed to handle WebRTC specific features (continous consent etc). But,
    > >>>> such gateway wouldn't have to do video transcoding.
    > >>>>> I don't understand. I don't think that VP8 (or any other codec) as MTI
    > >>>> implies that you would have to transcode in the gateway.
    > >>>>> If we're going to talk about gateways, it's important for you to explain what
    > >>>> kind of devices are on either end. Please clarify.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I think Keith gave IMS based networks/devices as an example, so I'll echo
    > >>>> him.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> But, of course the networks/devices on the other side could also be non-IMS
    > >>>> SIP networks.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Regards,
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Christer
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> ________________________________________
    > >>>>> From: rtcweb [rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of cowwoc
    > >>>>> [cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org]
    > >>>>> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2014 7:48 PM
    > >>>>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>>>> Subject: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on
    > >>>>> Straw Poll replies)
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Keith,
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Even if we mandate H.264 and SDP as MTI, how in the world do you expect
    > >>>> RTCWEB to be interoperable with existing video equipment? I just don't get
    > >>>> this argument.
    > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the market share of devices that:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> * Encode/decode H.264 in hardware *and* expose public APIs for doing
    > >>>> so,
    > >>>>> * Understand SDP,
    > >>>>> * Are WebRTC compliant
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> is exactly zero. There is no way that legacy devices will magically begin
    > >>>> supporting WebRTC. This will require *new* products to get released.
    > >>>>> Gili
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> On 13/01/2014 9:47 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
    > >>>>> Legacy interoperability is important to some of us.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> It is not about preserving our existing equipment.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> It is about the fact the communication involves two or more parties, and
    > >>>> we want to enable video communication between RTCWEB user and the rest
    > >>>> of the entities in the world that are capable of video, without having to resort
    > >>>> to transcoding video on all calls. Yes transcoding is possible, but it has a cost
    > >>>> that someone will have to pay for, and it introduces delay, which can be
    > >>>> catered for, but removes the possibility of someone else in the call path
    > >>>> using that delay portion.
    > >>>>> Currently there are a considerable number more of those users using
    > >>>> legacy systems than there are using RTCWEB.
    > >>>>> Keith
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> ________________________________
    > >>>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of cowwoc
    > >>>>> Sent: 10 January 2014 16:39
    > >>>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
    > >>>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comment on Straw Poll replies
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> On 10/01/2014 9:54 AM,
    > >>>> stephane.proust@orange.com<mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com>
    > >>>> wrote:
    > >>>>> Can I ask why you even bother with WebRTC, if you want to restrict
    > >>>> WebRTC to interoperability with old systems only and therefore to old
    > >>>> features only?
    > >>>>> I'd like to suggest that such replies should be disregarded because they
    > >>>> look backwards and not forwards.
    > >>>>> I don't think that disregarding replies is a constructive way forward.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> However if you want to go that way, and if you want to get rid of old
    > >>>> technologies, let's start by disregarding replies from those who could live
    > >>>> with a WebRTC technology that would specify H.261 as only MTI codec.
    > >>>>> Given your concerns about "old" systems and "od" features, I'm a little bit
    > >>>> surprised that your are part of them.
    > >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10798.html
    > >>>>> (note that there is G.711 for audio but NOT as ONLY MTI codec)
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> This is a fallacy. No one is arguing that you should be stuck with using *just*
    > >>>> H.261. What we are saying is that: if H.264 or VP8 are available on both end-
    > >>>> points, great. If not, you can either:
    > >>>>> * Use H.261, or
    > >>>>> * Transcode, or
    > >>>>> * Drop Video
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> By eliminating H.261 as MTI, you lose the first option and are forced to
    > >>>> either transcode or drop video. The cost to supporting H.261 is as simple as
    > >>>> compiling https://github.com/Vproject/p64 and popping it on your device.
    > >>>> You don't need hardware support because it's so computationally cheap.
    > >>>>> And finally, we're not objecting to the use of H.264, per se, but rather to
    > >>>> the fact that the majority of people who vote for it and against everything
    > >>>> else use "legacy interoperability" as argument.
    > >>>>> WebRTC is a *new* technology. If all we wanted to do was to support
    > >>>> *existing* devices then we would use *existing* technologies. For that
    > >>>> reason, I don't think maintaining backwards compatibility is important when
    > >>>> breaking it has a noticeable benefit (and in this case, I believe it does).
    > >>>>> Alternatively, please convince MPEG-LA to make H.264 available royalty-
    > >>>> free.
    > >>>>> Gili
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> _______________________________________________
    > >>>> rtcweb mailing list
    > >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    > >> _______________________________________________
    > >> rtcweb mailing list
    > >> rtcweb@ietf.org
    > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    >
    > 


    _______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --------------090807000505040500070804-- From martin.thomson@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 13:52:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990571AE230 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sanvUrcIla6z for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C151AE18B for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l18so1008443wgh.5 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DrYMFHnnsZip6+o+ifxNsRAebaaqvbThD7QQX7qZ4vo=; b=KPPzpH3ZM2AmEavG4liNaVKSfxSeF5qCFcqtV/ItZX89xryKd0lvKXpxaTwWNIZeVW Pa6vuCV6giLA2TIvsUv+p0xqyrPBPwkrTC/KVE9hkX44zDiht9xbYBJeNYxlbJRcph+W TBbAQ20sKWw2nFgpKz8asYp5ACtZPgkbHAUJgO8n4RVYEPH7/Nvwd/kj06xk1mEdvgnv HXYEl8rY7SbTAOkZS7US+NSQ6rWOmyGgxSpjpPTo3gNSVIaQRWVkghGJoet8snUsqrBf xD5OBJBogAoLV5QvtdDhRpwauSZwlqkv7FXSp9kLNrFuQGlGV6WXv/wCO9HR9R4MYN6s 1IkA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.106.200 with SMTP id gw8mr5124247wib.50.1389736340037; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.105.132 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <761C01D0-71A5-46CE-B641-FBB7450DB698@phonefromhere.com> References: <20131215075757.GB3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <52AE54F8.5070300@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE759C.7020209@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE9129.8090702@bbs.darktech.org> <52AE9E0C.9060707@bbs.darktech.org> <20131216170820.GD82971@verdi> <20131220113631.GA70585@verdi> <52B47196.6060400@bbs.darktech.org> <52B484AB.5020102@bbs.darktech.org> <52B4B85F.2070209@dcrocker.net> <52B73B81.6050400@dcrocker.net> <761C01D0-71A5-46CE-B641-FBB7450DB698@phonefromhere.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:52:19 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: tim panton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Is there room for a compromise? what about no MTI? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:52:33 -0000 On 23 December 2013 03:40, tim panton wrote: > - We need to leave these decisions to app developers and not assume anyth= ing > we don=E2=80=99t absolutely have to. It's not that simple. Who gets the blame when the experience sucks? From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 14 23:28:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0611AE317 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMHUz0gYkV2A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB1F1AE314 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f2b8e0000073bf-1d-52d63895decf Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 66.83.29631.59836D25; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:28:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:26:39 +0100 Message-ID: <52D63823.4070900@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:26:27 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba , Tim Panton References: , <67AD498F-4E6D-48FD-9067-B4491BE3FC16@phonefromhere.com>, <52BF083C.7050308@googlemail.com>, <7684BF01-C9F6-49F6-8B6A-A262EE3B08C0@phonefromhere.com> , <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5Ui2tBBlemyFvsX3KZ2WL5yxOM Fmv/tbNbXNx+i9GBxWPa/ftsHo97zrB5LFnyk8ljyaRGtgCWKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6MNQen MRZ8E6rYfPE/SwPjCv4uRk4OCQETiRO/e9kgbDGJC/fWA9lcHEICJxglem59gXKWM0rsb/zA 0sXIwcEroC1xpkUNpIFFQFXi0ekLrCA2m4CFxM0fjWCDRAWCJW5Ne8AOYvMKCEqcnPmEBcQW AYovf/KFEcRmFvCSePjtDFi9sICvxKT3F8HmCAncZ5KY+dsQZBWngKXEhYkmIKaEgLhET2MQ RKeexJSrLVBT5CWat85mhujUlmho6mCdwCg0C8niWUhaZiFpWcDIvIpRsji1uDg33chALzc9 t0QvtSgzubg4P0+vOHUTIzDkD275bbSD8eQe+0OM0hwsSuK811lrgoQE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KL SnNSiw8xMnFwSjUwlixP+LZNK8104163K3WndtrO+en+4MrRqSXGWccLtRlrO1IcvhxzarGb oneDe/7xf+oWayf8U+iInrxUTXriba4/ZdLbs24pLpsrNLHUc01Y28MJ56zMLuQd/Fd2/uSh tm3mNe9vOr+c/LZJ9L/2uzTJfdMqruicbxVf3FgtHhu4Ovr1hxDuNiWW4oxEQy3mouJEAL6O 0wVHAgAA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:28:36 -0000 On 2014-01-14 17:55, Bernard Aboba wrote: > I'd prefer choice A. It makes sense to me for all fb message > recommendations to be handled within the same document. Right now RPSI > and SLI are discussed in the RTP usage document, but are OPTIONAL, > Since there will be substantial benefits in terms of interoperability, > I'd like to see commonly used fb messages RECOMMENDED for implementation > (since implementation is not required in the codec documents a MUST is > probably too much). I definitely wants more feedback on this. But, I think I am not disagreeing with your view. Most of the video codecs that there exist RTP payload formats today can use SLI and RPSI. RPSI don't make sense for Motion JPEG and the video/raw or video/SMPTE292M that don't use reference structures and SLI should be possible to use with also the RAW formats so that has even wider applicability. > > It might also be appropriate to include a general statement that WebRTC > implementations supporting a particular video codec need to conform to > the requirements of the codec specification with respect to fb messages. This, I don't see a problem with such a statement. Do you have a text proposal? > > I am indifferent to whether the RTP usage document includes a reference > to the VP8 or H265 payload specifications or not (I'd suggest that > either reference be non-normative). RFC 6184 does not have a section on > fb messages similar to the ones in the VP8 and H265 payload specs, so > that will not be of much help. I would like to avoid these and let these be part of the draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio and draft-ietf-rtcweb-video documents. The intention with this structure was to enable piece wise revisioning if required without needing to open up questions of all the media formats at the same time. And that RTP usage changes would not require having to deal with media format changes unless required. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 15 02:20:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C47F1AE07C for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:20:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UNNbbD8Vj9bG for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E021AE07A for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f2b8e0000073bf-36-52d660f0366b Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 72.85.29631.0F066D25; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:20:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:20:32 +0100 Message-ID: <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:20:20 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Chenxin (Xin)" , "Hutton, Andrew" , Christer Holmberg , Parthasarathi R , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7HhGtBBp1bOS22bSi1uHmll9Fi 8qc+Vou1/9rZHVg8Wo68ZfVYsuQnk8eH+V/YPbb3PGYJYInisklJzcksSy3St0vgynh+Zz9b wTW5itsHP7A0MD4R62Lk5JAQMJHo/zSTEcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DACUaJpQubmSGc5YwS31sO AmU4OHgFtCV23nUHaWARUJW48+MGWDObgIXEzR+NbCC2qECwxK1pD9hBbF4BQYmTM5+wgMwR EXjFKHHgx3ewBmGBMInbS1azgNhCArNYJDa9SACxOYHi27Y8ZgLZJSEgLtHTGAQSZhbQk5hy tYURwpaXaN46mxmiVVuioamDdQKj4Cwk62YhaZmFpGUBI/MqRsni1OLi3HQjA73c9NwSvdSi zOTi4vw8veLUTYzA4D645bfRDsaTe+wPMUpzsCiJ815nrQkSEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2KLyrNSS0+ xMjEwSnVwMh3yvVEscvndWcZZ/RfXMJxKf247UOW88wlzLls/u81DZjnuWTWFwf8XXth1qWw ReXtjzaKHfn+LjeE4b/Ed/UzzPO8z7DM5V265V+H+fF7F5YLNbJU9Ex67/NAIsL3MV+KQmB8 rvSfluVWX8RuWC/em6p3gYev9ebMN9bT3P29NvnfeZJ0coUSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCK6GKfPAIA AA== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:20:48 -0000 WG, It has been quite some time since the WG last call ended and a new revision was submitted. As Document Shepherd I want to push this document to publication request. Chenxin proposed below three different sets of changes to the document. Does the WG support making these changes? Please indicate within the next week if you support or want to reject these changes. Thanks Magnus On 2013-10-17 12:23, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > I think you means F29 not F27:). When I read it , I realize that there > is cross and ambiguous between 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 > > > > More details: > > > > The topic of 3.3.2 is "Simple Video Communication Service, *NAT/FW* > that blocks UDP". But in the description and requirement, only *NAT* is > considered. > > The topic of 3.3.3 is "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that > only allows http", But only *http proxy* deployed scenarios is considered. > > > > There are other usecases " FW block UDP, incoming TCP, Http allowing > FW without http proxy deplolyed under the permission of FW policy" , > which is lost in the description. If we need consider these usecases , I > suggest to make some change to the description. > > > > Proposal 1 : > > > > add FW related words to section 3.3.2 > > ------------------------------------------------- > > 3.3.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks UDP > > > > 3.3.2.1. Description > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video Communication > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of the > > users is behind a NAT*/FW* that blocks UDP traffic. > > . > > > > 3.3.2.2. Additional Requirements > > > > F29 The browser must be able to send streams and > > data to a peer in the presence of NATs *and FWs* that > > block UDP traffic ,* when FW policy allows WebRTC traffic*. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Proposal 2: If the" Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > case is impliedly included in F29. I suggest to change the topics of > 3.3.3 to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows > traffic via a http proxy". So the 3.3.3 is a specific case. > > > > Proposal 3: If " Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" case > need to be explicitly mentioned. I suggest to add some descriptions to 3.3.3 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > 3.3.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows http > > > > 3.3.3.1. Description > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video Communication > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of the > > users is behind a http allowing FW or a FW that only allows traffic > via a HTTP Proxy. > > > > 3.3.3.2. Additional Requirements > > > > F37 The browser must be able to send streams and > > data to a peer in the presence of http allowing FWs or FWs > that only > > allows traffic via a HTTP Proxy, when FW policy > > allows WebRTC traffic. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Xin > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 15 02:34:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0551AE33E for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:34:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5sFUkemHUmwJ for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B5E1AE31B for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:34:43 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-83-52d664375885 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 11.5C.27941.73466D25; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:34:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:34:31 +0100 Message-ID: <52D6642A.7010809@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:34:18 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , 'Christer Holmberg' , References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <000d01cecdb2$63c1ef90$2b45ceb0$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <000d01cecdb2$63c1ef90$2b45ceb0$@co.in> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja55yrUgg1crxC22bSi1uHmll9Fi 8qc+Vou1/9rZHVg8Wo68ZfVYsuQnk8eH+V/YPbb3PGYJYInisklJzcksSy3St0vgyti0uJOp 4INIxb4NLewNjFsFuhg5OSQETCROv7nNDGGLSVy4t56ti5GLQ0jgCKPEyd3dzBDOckaJrvt3 2UCqeAW0JTauXABmswioSkyddAPMZhOwkLj5oxHMFhUIlrg17QE7RL2gxMmZT1hABokI3GGU uLrsHRNIQlggTOL2ktUsEBsOsUjcf/+WFSTBCXTTit6TQAkOoJvEJXoag0DCzAJ6ElOutjBC 2PISzVtng50tBHRQQ1MH6wRGwVlI9s1C0jILScsCRuZVjBzFqcVJuelGBpsYgeF7cMtvix2M l//aHGKU5mBREuf9+NY5SEggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVAMjV07zMl/+yOtH7snu ibq3qyPi+znnwNzgWYd0NxQum/Woyo/l6b3qd/H2Vgpa7w6zxwpX9H+suD9h9lsWG++Lq53Y g9we+x2awfJQ6t60TI/dXA7y1xa/sTe4f/Hf3ZTngnfe/jt/YeN312c6sx+Wck6ffKPzzGqd Lt8zzLc+d0b6XPyz5pWEphJLcUaioRZzUXEiANRUCHAtAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:34:45 -0000 Hi Partha, I see this as an outstanding question on the use-cases document and I want to resolve it prior to the publication request. I want to check my understanding of the points you bring up. See below. On 2013-10-20 18:35, Parthasarathi R wrote: > Hi Xin & all, > > > > Apart from modified F29 by Xin, the following requirement has to be > discussed: > > 1) New requirement for blocking incoming TCP connection: > > a. The browser must be able to send streams and data to a peer in > the presence of NATs and FWs that block UDP traffic and incoming TCP > connection So the point of this requirement would be to differentiate to the other existing requirements that a NAT/FW combination may provide no UDP and no support for incoming TCP. Thus, if one goes into solution space, you need a proxy/relay solution where a peer can establish a point of presence outside of the NAT/FW which is reachable over non-UDP, thus assuming TCP as only alternative. >From my perspective the combination of F2 and F29 implicitly demands the support of a relay solution, and that it is unnecessary to add an explicit requirement. This as the failure rate for incoming TCP connections through any NAT is high irrespective of explicit blocking of incoming TCP or not. > > 2) New requirement to cover both browsers are behind the firewall > > a. The browser must be able to send streams and data to a peer > in the presence of NATs and FWs that block UDP traffic and incoming TCP > connection in both browser side as well as in the peer side (TURN only > works) I think this is unclear, as there are two aspects of this. The peers are either behind different FW or the same FW/NAT. If it is the second, I think this will simply work the same way two client on an non firewalled network would work. At least ICE will find it. If it is the first, I think that is implicitly included in F2. Thus I question if there any utility in adding anything about this in the use-case document. WG, please contribute your views on this and if we need to make any changes to the document in regards to this proposal. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 15 02:44:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878C21AE31B for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:44:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCpPxtqPlpAy for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAED1AE02E for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 02:44:48 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7f228e000003e6c-05-52d666936cf0 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw7.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 37.29.15980.39666D25; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:44:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:44:35 +0100 Message-ID: <52D66687.9060204@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:44:23 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrIJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6UtGtBBveXc1us/dfO7sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujO0HGhgLWnkqFv6dz9zA+Iizi5GTQ0LARGLjv2eMELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAQOMUrsWbiQHcJZzigxY+J35i5GDg5eAW2JGycjQRpYBFQlri47wQRiswlYSNz8 0cgGYosKBEvcmvaAHcTmFRCUODnzCQuILSKgLnH54QWwuLBAlMSaH5PYQUZKCIhL9DQGgYSZ BfQkplxtYYSw5SWat85mBrGFgLY2NHWwTmDkn4Vk6iwkLbOQtCxgZF7FyJ6bmJmTXm6+iREY TAe3/DbYwbjpvtghRmkOFiVx3g9vnYOEBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MO4UO7wj t/78/8Ib709+5Tb4sn3l9pwPEiVL/5jPWS6yR8FXrf909sP2ersgn/aZ65/OzzrSenkO8wbv NmWtxRw/jqkJrP5Vfa7lYN3UDXy8IblRLPPiFm0/Ualu+aUwRnaTssksN68kXl1dXibuSZMi u7buSgtbuPGI6GaX9ni1CY/0Vv1fLazEUpyRaKjFXFScCAChleqD9AEAAA== Subject: [rtcweb] Preparing for publication request of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:44:50 -0000 WG, This is related to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements/ We have held WG last call and there has been updates to the document to resolve the WG last call comments. It is now time to finish up this document and request publication of it. I am the document shepherd for this document and will prepare my write-up of the document and in that process do the necessary reviews. I also asked the WG for input on two open issues that needs to be closed prior to publication request. So please review these and provide your input on them. This is your chance to verify that your comments has been addressed in the revision. Please provide any feedback on the document within the next week, i.e. no later than the 22 Feb. Note, that I will require that the WG approves of any changes in this state, rather than any silence is approval model. So if you want some change to go into the document at this stage there need to (rough) consensus to introduce it and clearly shown support. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From john@jlc.net Wed Jan 15 05:44:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E465F1AE0C8 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:44:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cHD-cTr53Kfi for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BBA1AE0C3 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 1729BC94A9; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:44:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:44:38 -0500 From: John Leslie To: Stephan Wenger Message-ID: <20140115134438.GB8358@verdi> References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] Transcoding Delay X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:44:55 -0000 Stephan Wenger wrote: > > As for the delay introduced by the transcoding engine alone, let me note > that the single or two frame delay commonly attributed to transcoding is > realistic only for straightforward PPP type coding. I agree that seems optimistic... > My understanding is that VP8, in its default encoder settings, uses > much more complex GOP structures for error resilience and coding > efficiency reasons. H.264 constrained baseline certainly also allows > that (it?s even more flexible in that regard). Complex GOP structures > are anywhere between helpful to essential (depending on your viewpoint) > for error resilience. I would hope that error resilience could become orthogonal to transcoding -- though I agree it doesn't seem to be there yet. > Complex GOP structures do not necessarily increase the latency in an > overall system design in the absence of errors (they are not based on > MPEG-2 B frame type of thinking), but when error correction becomes > necessary, a transcoder would need to emulate receiver behavior, and > that certainly would induce delay of several hundred milliseconds > which would not be observable in a transcoder-free operation (under > the assumption that the end system chooses to display slightly > distorted video) but will be observable and unavoidable in the > transcoder-based design. The mistake here is optimizing for resilience assuming the same coding/decoding rules when, in fact, the endpoints don't share the same rules. Yes, that very much gets in the way of minimal latency. > I?m very familiar with H.264 baseline, and somewhat familiar with the VP8 > syntax. Based on this knowledge, I doubt that one can transcode between > the two formats in the compressed domain, i.e. without full reconstructed > to the sample level. I am absolutely convinced that compressed domain > transcoding in the direction from H.264 to VP8 is impossible, due to the > larger feature set of H.264. ?Impossible? means here that I could create > an H.264 compliant bitstream that cannot be transcoded into VP8 in the > compressed domain, because there is no syntax equivalent for an H.264 tool > in VP8. I agree. (And this is worth re-reading several times for anyone participating in discussion of transcoding.) > For example, H.264 constrained baseline supports more than three > reference pictures, whereas VP8 uses no more than three (last frame, > golden frame, and alternate reference frame). It wouldn?t take me long to > extend this list to several pages. I?m also fairly certain that people > more familiar with the VP8 syntax could similarly identify VP8 features > that have no direct counterpart in H.264. Insofar, I take any statement > about ?availability? of compressed domain transcoding between the two > coding schemes with a large grain of salt. It may be possible (I don?t > know) to transcode in the compressed domain between H.264/VP8 bitstreams > when the respective input bitstream is specifically tailored for that > purpose, and perhaps that is what people have in mind. It would also be possible to declare transcoding failure in cases like these -- that's a tradeoff between precision and latency which should be available at application layer. But, IMHO, it's probably better to disable error-resilience features that poison transcoding when we know transcoding will be used. YMMV, of course... -- John Leslie From john@jlc.net Wed Jan 15 06:11:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07BD1AE2A8 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:11:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sOkNMQDUqMDH for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36F51AE0D7 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 9CAD6C94A9; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:11:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:11:03 -0500 From: John Leslie To: "Espen Berger (espeberg)" Message-ID: <20140115141103.GC8358@verdi> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:11:21 -0000 Espen Berger (espeberg) wrote: > > Comments on transcoding based on testing in lab and research. :^) > * In side by side comparison, single encode/decode and > encode/transcode/decode we can see that the untranscoded video > stream can be 20-35% lower bitrate and give the same visual quality... This tradeoff will be acceptable in many cases, IMHO. > * Lip-sync should be within 50 ms, this is the conclusion from a > Norwegian based ph.d student and also recommendation from EBU... The EBU document discusses HDTV programming (and indeed recommends audio no more than 5 msec early or 15 msec late). They claim to base this on failure of lip-sync becoming "perceptable to 50% of observers". The 50 msec number seems plausible, but I have no basis to judge. Lip-sync can always be accomplished by delaying one or the other: this gives us a trade-off (which I'd prefer to be under application control). > * Advanced media resilience techniques like LTRF, disposable frames > and more are hard to map between different video codecs, so > transcoding will likely reduce robustness for packet loss. (discussed elsewhere) > * Transcoding adds delay, between 60 - 200 ms (depending on packet > loss and implementation). I have no basis to judge those numbers; but they seem high. > This has an impact since camera to screen latency should be below > 300 ms to get a smooth conversation between to participants in a > video call. Test on people shows that glass to glass latency > should be below 330 ms, to avoid latency to be noticed. Do you have a source for that? My gut-feel is that folks will tolerate at least 200 msec glass-to- glass, but have problems when mouth-to-ear exceeds 150 msec. Alas I don't have a source for that... :^( > All in all we should avoid transcoding for video conferencing use > cases to get to a good user experience. I quite agree it's worth "avoiding" -- but that's not at all the same as saying we should try to prevent it. -- John Leslie From john@jlc.net Wed Jan 15 06:32:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211181AE259 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:32:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id txUrdu8zh2xH for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B261AE0F4 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 87D37C94C4; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:32:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:32:07 -0500 From: John Leslie To: "Cavigioli, Chris" Message-ID: <20140115143207.GD8358@verdi> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:32:24 -0000 Cavigioli, Chris wrote: > > Yes, transcoding consumes significant compute resources, draws power > and generates heat. All true... > With good technology, that can be somewhat mitigated, but even if you > had the world's largest supercomputer on the head of a pin, transcoding > introduces speech frame buffer delays that are irreducible. Not sure what "speech frame buffer delays" means; but yes, transcoding introduces video delays. > Add to those codec latencies, another set of latencies for jitter > buffer in the receiver side and then also another jitter buffer in > the network for the transcoder's receiver side ... then add extra > buffer delays when audio and video don't sync up and you slip to > the next timeslot. Those latencies really shouldn't be blamed on transcoding. > In speakerphone configurations, you add extra delay for acoustic echo > cancellation. Agreed that echo-cancellation adds delay -- but again, that shouldn't be blamed on transcoding. (BTW, I'm not a fan of echo-cancellation in best-effort-Internet telephony.) > Then you add the latencies going in the return path. Before you know > it, you have significantly noticeable mouth-to-ear latencies. Agreed it's really easy to get noticeable mouth-to-ear latency. > Once these the round-trip delay gets to a certain level, people begin > to double-talk and it makes a conversational dialog very difficult, > especially when you have a multiparty call to discuss a contentious > topic. I have experienced such latencies. It's really painful. But recall that there was useful earth-to-moon conferencing -- so I don't think we should forbid such latencies: it feels like an application-level consideration. > Imagine you are a service provider. That's easy! ;^) > If WebRTC becomes widespread, then service providers will need to > invest capex to purchase & maintain transcoders to support "free" > calls. Actually, we don't need to... > Does this make financial business sense? In some cases, yes. In the other cases, we let someone else do the investing. > Will WebRTC gain a reputation for poor user experience due to > round-trip delay? Not if there are a majority of cases where delay is no worse than the PSTN. > We may argue about H.264 and VP8 today, but in the blink of an eye, > we'll be arguing about H.265 and VP9 ... but wait ... there will still > be H.264 and VP8 infrastructure and devices out there. Yes!!! > So you can either chose to transcode an ever-growing list of evolving > codecs ... or better ... use OFFER/ANSWER to negotiate transcoder-free > operation so that each session will narrow-down to a common codec for > all participants Exactly! > from a constrained list of mandatory codecs. Good lord no! We should never limit the choice to MTI codecs! > Thus WebRTC systems must support both VP8 and H.264 today, then also > VP9 and H.265 in the future ... as well as the voice channel with > Opus, G.711, AMR, AMR-WB and probably eventually also EVS, G.722, etc. (I don't get it... Why would any sane engineer want to go _there_? -- John Leslie From espeberg@cisco.com Wed Jan 15 07:59:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE011AE3AD for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.839 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.839 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aH7BOZcIGaAl for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C491AE3A7 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:59:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3369; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1389801561; x=1391011161; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=+XadSKt7raBE0e1ha4rsSTwCpDr5SYHqeZYuQ/umMIs=; b=BewmC5scVZGEBrmO/e4yYak439MfoG5xnsx+iCGXCwYVEMn9ITrKnTmz y7H5Q9o5eGyN0pwhPNHs9V8fMfCb/1nOKkMrzj/qHnSHcXTfi25nF98bD lkFvtTHi/O3U9mbzLk//ul1n6QLedciWvN/CRV4Pim8eRi0yXAIt/d5aO w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgUFAEmv1lKtJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABZgwuBDrp/gRUWdIIlAQEBAwE6PwUHBAIBCBEBAwEBAQoUCQcyFAMGCAIEDgUIh3QIxDEXjk4xBwaDHoETAQOUOpV7gy2CKg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,663,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="297469966" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Jan 2014 15:59:19 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com [173.36.12.85]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0FFxJHW002647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:59:19 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([169.254.1.68]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:59:19 -0600 From: "Espen Berger (espeberg)" To: John Leslie Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Transcoding Thread-Index: AQHPD9jDYNMpeFfzQkOXr3v53ppR25qB+uQAgACEcYD//9h6kIAD5FOA//+z+oA= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:59:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140113050631.GH3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> <20140115141103.GC8358@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140115141103.GC8358@verdi> Accept-Language: nb-NO, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.147.113.229] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:59:34 -0000 Comments inline.=20 -----Original Message----- From: John Leslie [mailto:john@jlc.net]=20 Sent: 15. januar 2014 15:11 To: Espen Berger (espeberg) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding Espen Berger (espeberg) wrote: >=20 > Comments on transcoding based on testing in lab and research.=20 :^) > * In side by side comparison, single encode/decode and > encode/transcode/decode we can see that the untranscoded video > stream can be 20-35% lower bitrate and give the same visual quality... This tradeoff will be acceptable in many cases, IMHO. > * Lip-sync should be within 50 ms, this is the conclusion from a > Norwegian based ph.d student and also recommendation from EBU... The EBU document discusses HDTV programming (and indeed recommends audio= no more than 5 msec early or 15 msec late). They claim to base this on fai= lure of lip-sync becoming "perceptable to 50% of observers". EBE>> The section I read was overall lip-sync at playout time should not ex= ceed -40 to +60 ms offset. This is also in line with the PH.d work I have s= een.=20 The 50 msec number seems plausible, but I have no basis to judge. Lip-sync can always be accomplished by delaying one or the other: this gives us a trade-off (which I'd prefer to be under application control= ). EBE>> Robust lip-sync should happen at the playout step, to handle various = latency differences between audio and video related to transport, jitter bu= ffer handling, decode or playout. =20 > * Advanced media resilience techniques like LTRF, disposable frames > and more are hard to map between different video codecs, so > transcoding will likely reduce robustness for packet loss.=20 (discussed elsewhere) > * Transcoding adds delay, between 60 - 200 ms (depending on packet > loss and implementation). I have no basis to judge those numbers; but they seem high. EBE>> I do not have a break down of what take time, but encoding of 1080p60= video takes a fair amount of time even on modern CPU architecture. The lo= nger delays are typically to handle receiver based packet loss and/or packe= t out-of-order, which is impacting your jitter buffer handling. My point w= ith transcoding overhead is packet re-ordering might have a higher impact i= n latency than the actual CPU time to do a decode+encode.=20 > This has an impact since camera to screen latency should be below > 300 ms to get a smooth conversation between to participants in a > video call. Test on people shows that glass to glass latency > should be below 330 ms, to avoid latency to be noticed. =20 Do you have a source for that? My gut-feel is that folks will tolerate at least 200 msec glass-to- glas= s, but have problems when mouth-to-ear exceeds 150 msec. Alas I don't have = a source for that... :^( EBE>> Unfortunately, I cannot find an online source for my statement.=20 > All in all we should avoid transcoding for video conferencing use=20 > cases to get to a good user experience. I quite agree it's worth "avoiding" -- but that's not at all the same as= saying we should try to prevent it. EBE>> Nothing is preventing us from doing transcoding here, it's more that = transcoding has impact.=20 -- John Leslie From martin.thomson@gmail.com Wed Jan 15 09:13:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E591AE1B6 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IhiszJMZMRQX for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDA41AE1AA for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w62so2058133wes.38 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hMzd8htXbf+/C/AGOPmZvLKO/5uuRJ66EFu8UPnG4pw=; b=UXcNCl37yqM5g313AaaPZxpspgcl/GkUQvRg1mTnLrd+pjvETeayn0PPe0QKq3c2AA 4G6nZtMs/HNxSSPsr5WCGupsM2DNzddRhdS5ejiiMtUbGxw0cw+lkUUQMIcY9A12fD4K CU/VIprcLABgNQ4mH8rSLNRjGL/M+1yfEtipHMvwXLH7CbD7tLddKfmII6qTitpFmrRW 7LsxbTiyqAE/rhq2VL6HzqElnr+8QH7IEtwVJkDkqhrkq99jo+iYZJcGHfDcSBHiUyhk 3q/h4pFZZDq0kNqeWSQVgSEkcvKh+N0MsFGOu6N9kh831FCUdmNb27/jz4v2kXMY1DRB 7/mA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.236.9 with SMTP id uq9mr3509244wjc.31.1389805983520; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.105.132 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D63823.4070900@ericsson.com> References: <67AD498F-4E6D-48FD-9067-B4491BE3FC16@phonefromhere.com> <52BF083C.7050308@googlemail.com> <7684BF01-C9F6-49F6-8B6A-A262EE3B08C0@phonefromhere.com> <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com> <52D63823.4070900@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:13:03 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Bernard Aboba , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:13:18 -0000 On 14 January 2014 23:26, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > I definitely wants more feedback on this. But, I think I am not > disagreeing with your view. Most of the video codecs that there exist > RTP payload formats today can use SLI and RPSI. RPSI don't make sense > for Motion JPEG and the video/raw or video/SMPTE292M that don't use > reference structures and SLI should be possible to use with also the RAW > formats so that has even wider applicability. Those formats that don't need SLI/RPSI can just ignore this guidance, or you can add a specific exception clause if you feel magnanimous, i.e., "The SLI and RPSI feedback messages MUST be supported and acted upon for video streams unless the codec does not support the concept of macroblocks or reference frames (respectively)." Or a statement to that effect. Basically, SLI and RPSI make sense for the codecs we actually care about, so let's require them. If people want to do raw video, then they are either smart enough to know that SLI/RPSI can't help them, or nothing an RFC says will help fix their issues. From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 10:21:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4731AE0D6 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:21:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ueT1tCCXOCVN for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc4-s25.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s25.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.164]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A82A1AE147 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU181-W85 ([65.55.111.135]) by blu0-omc4-s25.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:20:55 -0800 X-TMN: [STYA0oo1NJxm+3m9L6d5JGr90olp3BwN6Tb/rFS8yqA=] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d100bd9e-65cd-47f5-8de0-36d5e7e14b40_" From: Bernard Aboba To: Martin Thomson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:20:55 -0800 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , <67AD498F-4E6D-48FD-9067-B4491BE3FC16@phonefromhere.com>, <52BF083C.7050308@googlemail.com>, <7684BF01-C9F6-49F6-8B6A-A262EE3B08C0@phonefromhere.com>, , <52D50957.2090202@ericsson.com>, , <52D63823.4070900@ericsson.com>, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2014 18:20:55.0756 (UTC) FILETIME=[8807B8C0:01CF121E] Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Feedback messages (and problem with RTP usage document) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:21:12 -0000 --_d100bd9e-65cd-47f5-8de0-36d5e7e14b40_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin said:=20 > Those formats that don't need SLI/RPSI can just ignore this guidance=2C > or you can add a specific exception clause if you feel magnanimous=2C > i.e.=2C "The SLI and RPSI feedback messages MUST be supported and acted > upon for video streams unless the codec does not support the concept > of macroblocks or reference frames (respectively)." Or a statement to > that effect. [BA] I like this approach (though I'd suggest we consider SHOULD instead of= MUST).=20 > Basically=2C SLI and RPSI make sense for the codecs we actually care > about=2C so let's require them. If people want to do raw video=2C then > they are either smart enough to know that SLI/RPSI can't help them=2C or > nothing an RFC says will help fix their issues. [BA] I agree. Additional codecs could of course define requirements above= and beyond this (as the H.265 payload document does with SPLI)=2C but at l= east we'll have set baseline expectations. = --_d100bd9e-65cd-47f5-8de0-36d5e7e14b40_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Martin said: =3B
    <= div>
    >=3B Those formats that don't need SLI/RPSI can just ignore this = guidance=2C
    >=3B or you can add a specific exception clause if you fee= l magnanimous=2C
    >=3B i.e.=2C "The SLI and RPSI feedback messages MUST= be supported and acted
    >=3B upon for video streams unless the codec d= oes not support the concept
    >=3B of macroblocks or reference frames (r= espectively)." Or a statement to
    >=3B that effect.

    [BA] I like this approach (though I'd suggest we consider SHOULD ins= tead of MUST). =3B

    >=3B Basically=2C SLI and= RPSI make sense for the codecs we actually care
    >=3B about=2C so let'= s require them. If people want to do raw video=2C then
    >=3B they are = either smart enough to know that SLI/RPSI can't help them=2C or
    >=3B n= othing an RFC says will help fix their issues.

    [BA]  =3BI agree.  =3BAdditional codecs could of course define req= uirements above and beyond this (as the H.265 payload document does with SP= LI)=2C but at least we'll have set baseline expectations.  =3B
    =
    = --_d100bd9e-65cd-47f5-8de0-36d5e7e14b40_-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Wed Jan 15 12:57:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E26F1AE240 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3N6SIpgC5-q3 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34B51AE0D5 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f171.google.com with SMTP id cc10so4700639wib.16 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fVATuU+0BrQGOEGUtdSj8hdHWm7qAmlTy8i4TCpKIvU=; b=jbGP3KysdyEI4rKh6vSCxB6HwMT40L89uP/ttkPLVF8gx0KOW2EWdLoIpVLO/4hG5C wUQjm4f1m6EQBc3K/btKJr03pY16v1uqnLtvq/WkT/B1EmC+CpuoY0Ci0zAQHYISsd4P uVFK65K1SkIhGg1pasLfR3sfpE0+f/cmChr+4ysPAqdiN2B4APMrqHfCW+QLPzpsOQ00 wHX1MFRMsgtD6pbSjHnuPILytrL6otChgPs1m+lEYs1ifyyqkmjKh2rTzORQOAOiDmFV 8T1cZdhq0OvMRRklocoRhYmtlYAEqCMUgvURct5ANHYd3BAifm6Tk4PLqkN0m8AMRI90 U6kg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.182.226 with SMTP id eh2mr4275176wic.36.1389819426457; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.172.9 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:57:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D66687.9060204@ericsson.com> References: <52D66687.9060204@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:57:06 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e016347f0374c0a04f0088d4d Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Preparing for publication request of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:57:21 -0000 --089e016347f0374c0a04f0088d4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had thought I had previously done a detailed review of this doc, but I can't find it to know whether changes suggested have been incorporated. So, I have re-reviewed the document and I think it's almost ready to progress. I think it needs some editorial clarifications and nits to be fixed as summarized below. Note, I did not review the appendix. Regards, Mary. In general, I still find the style of this document very difficult to grok since the requirements are not grouped in categories and one has to keep switching back and forth in the document to match requirements to use cases. Questions/Comments for clarification: ---------------------------------------------------- 1) Section 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence. It's not clear to me that "e.g., a telephone" is meaningful. I don't think you're intending to interworking with a legacy PSTN connected black phone. So, it might be more accurate to say " e.g., a mobile phone or a SIP UA". 2) Section 3.3.1.1. Next to last paragraph. I'm not sure what you mean by different "makes". I think you mean different types of devices (e.g., mobile, SIP UA, etc. ). That all said, I don't think that's not so relevant. I think simply stating different OSs and different browsers is sufficient. 3) Section 3.3.6.1. It's not at all clear to me why this requirement is considered specific to WebRTC. I would think the access network changes should be transparent to WebRTC. Certainly, the device needs to know what's happening, but I think whether this works is entirely based on the internals of the device and the specific access network technology, and not WebRTC application. 4) Section 3.3.10.1. Why is F24 not considered an additional requirement here? Also, do you not need to have a statement as to what other use case is the basis for this one such that the core requirements are reference? 5) Section 3.3.11.1, 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. I don't understand what this is trying to say. What is meant by "enhance intelligibility"? And, what is meant by "pans the audio from different participants differently when rendering the audio". [As an aside, I will note that some of the CLUE use cases likely encompass what you are trying to communicate here in this requirements (including subsequent paragraphs and the last "Note:"), so you may want to look at those and use similar terminology and concepts, that CLUE spent a lot of time developing. ] 6) Section 3.4. I would expect F27 to be referenced by at least one of these use cases. 7) Section 4.2. - General: I am a bit confused as there are requirements in this section that aren't referenced in section 3, including F19, F23, and F27 . Perhaps, that's because there are some missing references in section 3 (see item 7)? If not, then why are they there. At a minimum you should add a sentence to section 4.1 indicating that not all the requirements are derived from the use cases (contrary to what is currently stated). - What's the difference between F24 and F34? - F30. I had to read this several times to understand it due to structure. I would suggest changing as follows: OLD: F30 The browser must be able to use the screen (or a specific area of the screen) or what a certain application displays on the screen to generate streams. NEW: F30 The browser must be able to generate streams using the entire user display, a specific area of the user's display or the information being displayed by a specific application. On this one, I also think it would be good to clarify what type of stream - are you talking about using protocol to share content or or is this just a video stream? Or would you have two separate requirement to cover both of these? - F32. I can't quite grok this one. Maybe you are trying to say something like the following? OLD: F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN servers to use are supplied by other entities than via the web application (i.e. the network provider). NEW: F32 The browser must support the use of STUN and TURN servers that are supplied by entities other than the web application (i.e. the network provider). 8) Section 7. I have mixed feelings about leaving this list with URLs in the document. I think it's good to highlight the use cases that weren't incorporated and why they weren't. I think it would add a lot more value to provide a concise summary of the reasons they weren't added than just including links, in particular, since we usually don't like to publish RFCs with links. Nits: ------ 1) Section 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence, "at least one of the end-user client" -> "at least one of the end-user clients" 2) Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence: - "retrives" -> "retrieves" - add a section reference for "Simple Video Communication Service" 3) Section 3.2. , next to last sentence. "retrieved from" -> "derived from" 4) Section 3.3.5.1, 3rd paragraph, - 1st sentence. "session" - "session" - 2nd sentence. "straddle the boundary between the internal network and external." -> "straddles the boundary between the internal and external networks. 5) Section 3.3.5.1, 4th paragraph. "they still want to have the traffic to stay" -> "they still want the traffic to say" 6) Section 3.3.61. 1st paragraph. I'm not sure why this ends with ":" 7) Section 3.3.6.1, 2nd paragraph. "device used by one of the users have several" -> "device used by one of the users has several" 8) Section 3.3.11.1, 1st para, 1st sentence. "In this use case is the Simple..." -> "In this use case, the Simple...." 9) Section 3.3.11.1 3rd from last paragraph. "use experience" -> "user experience" 10) Section 3.4.3.1, 2nd paragraph. "participant send" -> "participant sends" 11) Section 4.2: - F35. "of that streams" -> "that streams" On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund < magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > WG, > > This is related to: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirem= ents/ > > We have held WG last call and there has been updates to the document to > resolve the WG last call comments. It is now time to finish up this > document and request publication of it. I am the document shepherd for > this document and will prepare my write-up of the document and in that > process do the necessary reviews. > > I also asked the WG for input on two open issues that needs to be closed > prior to publication request. So please review these and provide your > input on them. > > This is your chance to verify that your comments has been addressed in > the revision. Please provide any feedback on the document within the > next week, i.e. no later than the 22 Feb. > > Note, that I will require that the WG approves of any changes in this > state, rather than any silence is approval model. So if you want some > change to go into the document at this stage there need to (rough) > consensus to introduce it and clearly shown support. > > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --089e016347f0374c0a04f0088d4d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --f46d044280c018b84204f11c702b-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Wed Jan 29 08:15:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6791A03A7 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N9L_v5O9tzCp for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x232.google.com (mail-ig0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7641A0230 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id uq10so4945002igb.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gDYSc2LWMw5kh16dBrjIdN+taxUDnDPYIJJ1vz7Z7aQ=; b=xznrj8FDHKWU0wPQZSBR8S/HCBqP8uRskR1KEgZWKr/wgxY7i9gBtb0k5IeCLoQiPW Ta9qWXJV6jSm40C2M3jY8ZZLezn7UJgGpYxfYmQCjehHFI9kJ+FujvTEfHUUmD7gvOQ5 uLTCBkRCl/k9ka8mDWvhuFLDCoDSJ+2iGEfGdpIi9UihnhUdfOnblQwfw97Bokalr3YW DINiobuuVjid1HxC9dz2UpcATx4zZQTSnM8lD4Qa1X+WkjZ3n5i8zOgDX8P/vWx9FXhI G9D02bO5vEPcva2svxpVtEgnerHt8y8A8+9YaWQI1cD28eAG8bkjMMjSfpDbUYXaOvSx ZdsA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.4.97 with SMTP id j1mr25526476igj.19.1391012153065; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.58.137 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:15:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E8B4F8.4000900@ericsson.com> References: <52E8B4F8.4000900@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:15:53 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cd4e430d9004f11e4134 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Potential dates for WebRTC/RTCWEB joint Interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:15:58 -0000 --001a11c2cd4e430d9004f11e4134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about the MMUSIC WG? As I recall from the last RTCWEB interim, the agenda ended up with just as much (and maybe more) topics that are under the purview of the MMUSIC WG and there was a last minute scramble to get an MMUSIC interim arranged at the same time. Mary. On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Magnus Westerlund < magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > WG, > > The chairs of this WG and the W3C are considering an joint interim > meeting. The dates we chairs have arrived as feasible are May 20-22 > (Tue-Thu). We are considering to split up the time between the two WGs > across all three days. So please take note of these dates in your > calendar now. > > The target region for this interim would be East Coast of North America, > but we have at this stage no host or set location. If you are willing to > host, please contact the chairs. > > We haven't decided on this interim yet, and appreciate your input into > holding one. The goals of the interim would be to advanced the state of > the core documents we need to finish up. We expect that we will have > some document that may have WG last call issues needing face to face > time to speed up resolving them. We expect to have documents that are > under development, like JSEP that will have thorny issues to deal with. > Especially issues that interact with the API where we can benefit from > having the W3C WG also present to come to joint conclusions. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > (For the RTCWEB Chairs) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c2cd4e430d9004f11e4134 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    What about the MMUSIC WG? =A0As I recall from the last RTC= WEB interim, the agenda ended up with just as much (and maybe more) topics = that are under the purview of the MMUSIC WG and there was a last minute scr= amble to get an MMUSIC interim arranged at the same time.=A0

    Mary.


    On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
    WG,

    The chairs of this WG and the W3C are considering an joint interim
    meeting. The dates we chairs have arrived as feasible are May 20-22
    (Tue-Thu). We are considering to split up the time between the two WGs
    across all three days. So please take note of these dates in your
    calendar now.

    The target region for this interim would be East Coast of North America, but we have at this stage no host or set location. If you are willing to host, please contact the chairs.

    We haven't decided on this interim yet, and appreciate your input into<= br> holding one. The goals of the interim would be to advanced the state of
    the core documents we need to finish up. We expect that we will have
    some document that may have WG last call issues needing face to face
    time to speed up resolving them. We expect to have documents that are
    under development, like JSEP that will have thorny issues to deal with.
    Especially issues that interact with the API where we can benefit from
    having the W3C WG also present to come to joint conclusions.

    Cheers

    Magnus Westerlund
    (For the RTCWEB Chairs)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ericsson AB =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | Phone =A0+46 10 7148287
    F=E4r=F6gatan 6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | Mobile +46 73 0949079
    SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a11c2cd4e430d9004f11e4134-- From martin.thomson@gmail.com Wed Jan 29 09:46:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AE01A02DD for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqmSetsWQD7x for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526911A0276 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id l18so8692000wgh.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1Ps8NK2dmcPtzUtxKxynYf3jTGVdO4b9WF4aFiPl0Hg=; b=RRDwV5d2/Gk7vXfv2KVH68EWOyLXFE7m2KrBhWxozwkSB1YYAgsn9/6MPS2eJeR4or SsB4zNPbUfZYqJUIxsROfxH330awYaO02KSuRy1OQso9h60SSe61HmZNAJryutf94qLL B5TQx6EdSBrqWhSl7gibBSFZLsYqmiFzclLU2cZRZEBNYPpzuqXdrS40Zj/qq9r08APf SNYc6rUoECoiQ8sskNFrQv6A5DylH3VqG2s8ClBufoShAZtl/yMwXRjqsVY83wdUqnb5 TRv9WQZ3rh0NTM+Dqxn+VcBkYrfmaDC5TXtlEUrnn+B9EZzMGx6KhD7lI9ayNfrA303y oKVA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.129 with SMTP id s1mr6560073wiw.56.1391017569823; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.145.131 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:46:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:46:14 -0000 On 29 January 2014 00:58, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. I know this is in 3551, but is anyone realistically going to do anything as high as 120? It's PCMU after all and the only reason I'm aware of for going even as high as 20ms is to keep the packetization overheads down. From jmvalin@mozilla.com Wed Jan 29 12:45:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47891A03FF for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:45:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHrFmaUTXF26 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8768A1A03D6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (modemcable130.97-201-24.mc.videotron.ca [24.201.97.130]) (Authenticated sender: jvalin@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48020F228F; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:45:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52E9685C.2060509@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:45:16 -0500 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund , rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 20:45:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Maybe we can ask that receivers MUST be able to receive anything up to 120, but that senders SHOULD use 5, 10, 20, or 40 to avoid causing the receiver to operate with sub-optimal timing? That being said, even a ptime of 2.5 ms could possibly end up being used if someone's transcoding from Opus (which has 2.5 ms frames) to G.711. Jean-Marc On 01/29/2014 03:58 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > I reviewed the changes introduced here resolves my previous > comments. However, I have to raise one question to the WG. > > In Section 3: > > o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and any > ptime value up to 120 ms - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] > > It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can > receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is also > good that one can send whatever in that range the peer requests. > However, I would note that it is likely good that an implementation > restrains oneself to request ptime values from the peer that are 5 > ms increments and likely 20 ms increments for higher values. I have > the impression that the used values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, > 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. > > Anyone having any position on this? > > Cheers > > Magnus > > On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the >> Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the >> IETF. >> >> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements >> Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran Filename : >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages : 6 Date >> : 2014-01-27 >> >> Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and processing >> requirements for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >> tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft >> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJS6WhcAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9Rk4H/i/4hHYhMEavFZLJkOcarkj5 IDLIqdciA03yLzJnuausuf0RSwAOcqqf+pmox164rYX7oRyxy/fRCJ1IzyY4kB7L J8+PaCzMV7Y2uw2/zNQuqFs2tc2dnwho67jWH1o0OP8Y+gJu6MYMMpbcSNGasqbr MweHIQy3d/CLqPcrz5a64JCJdyswtBa4aCraJwOrevsH44KEoRvzBOXHSLBX3eJw RKzcZMksl7Fy8DH0YrrNF05J7dZ0TfeNb/ZKWBwh6zOmhCVbO+uBZ+cz8LlP2InS IH4r1g3hDPjo2YIPr7zIzwoSUtXZvOq0D6h3G+f/+ILHUa5NSkzPK7ybmWyTtU4= =pLn+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jan 29 13:01:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB481A043B for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7C49pMypiLz for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.alcatel.com (hoemail1.alcatel.com [192.160.6.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9139D1A041C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by hoemail1.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0TKwbLp020103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:01:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0TKrMop025448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:53:22 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:53:22 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Jean-Marc Valin , Magnus Westerlund , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHPHTMDT30ScglA+UyrX9HxTJQZepqcLWrA Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 20:53:22 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B12556F@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <52E9685C.2060509@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <52E9685C.2060509@mozilla.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:01:43 -0000 Can you clarify what problem we are trying to solve here? Is there a practical problem with implementing the higher values, or are we= just trying to prevent someone using the toolkit suboptimally? For the lat= ter, guidance only is needed, and nothing with the strength of SHOULD or MU= ST. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Jean-Marc Valin > Sent: 29 January 2014 20:45 > To: Magnus Westerlund; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt >=20 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 >=20 > Maybe we can ask that receivers MUST be able to receive=20 > anything up to 120, but that senders SHOULD use 5, 10, 20, or=20 > 40 to avoid causing the receiver to operate with sub-optimal=20 > timing? That being said, even a ptime of 2.5 ms could=20 > possibly end up being used if someone's transcoding from Opus=20 > (which has 2.5 ms frames) to G.711. >=20 > Jean-Marc >=20 > On 01/29/2014 03:58 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > WG, > >=20 > > I reviewed the changes introduced here resolves my previous=20 > comments.=20 > > However, I have to raise one question to the WG. > >=20 > > In Section 3: > >=20 > > o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and any=20 > > ptime value up to 120 ms - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] > >=20 > > It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can=20 > > receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is also=20 > > good that one can send whatever in that range the peer requests. > > However, I would note that it is likely good that an implementation=20 > > restrains oneself to request ptime values from the peer=20 > that are 5 ms=20 > > increments and likely 20 ms increments for higher values. I=20 > have the=20 > > impression that the used values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30,=20 > 40, 60, 80,=20 > > 100, 120 ms. > >=20 > > Anyone having any position on this? > >=20 > > Cheers > >=20 > > Magnus > >=20 > > On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >>=20 > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 > >> directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time=20 > Communication=20 > >> in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. > >>=20 > >> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements=20 > >> Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran Filename : > >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages : 6 Date > >> : 2014-01-27 > >>=20 > >> Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and processing=20 > >> requirements for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=20 > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ > >>=20 > >> There's also a htmlized version available at:=20 > >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 > >>=20 > >> A diff from the previous version is available at:=20 > >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at=20 > >> tools.ietf.org. > >>=20 > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=20 > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >>=20 > >> _______________________________________________=20 > I-D-Announce mailing=20 > >> list I-D-Announce@ietf.org=20 > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft > >> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20 > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >>=20 > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ >=20 > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJS6WhcAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9Rk4H/i/4hHYhMEavFZLJkOcarkj5 > IDLIqdciA03yLzJnuausuf0RSwAOcqqf+pmox164rYX7oRyxy/fRCJ1IzyY4kB7L > J8+PaCzMV7Y2uw2/zNQuqFs2tc2dnwho67jWH1o0OP8Y+gJu6MYMMpbcSNGasqbr > MweHIQy3d/CLqPcrz5a64JCJdyswtBa4aCraJwOrevsH44KEoRvzBOXHSLBX3eJw > RKzcZMksl7Fy8DH0YrrNF05J7dZ0TfeNb/ZKWBwh6zOmhCVbO+uBZ+cz8LlP2InS > IH4r1g3hDPjo2YIPr7zIzwoSUtXZvOq0D6h3G+f/+ILHUa5NSkzPK7ybmWyTtU4=3D > =3DpLn+ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > = From jmvalin@mozilla.com Wed Jan 29 13:12:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600131A041C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKdn61OkkF0b for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402CF1A02C0 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (modemcable130.97-201-24.mc.videotron.ca [24.201.97.130]) (Authenticated sender: jvalin@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E31F8F2CB0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:12:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52E96EBF.8050702@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:12:31 -0500 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , Magnus Westerlund , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <52E9685C.2060509@mozilla.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B12556F@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B12556F@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:12:37 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Well, we need a MUST somewhere to determine the minimum capabilities required to guarantee interop. I think that minimum should at least include the durations supported by Opus (so that there's at least a simple way to do Opus->G.711 transcoding). Beyond that I don't have a strong opinion on whether we should require more and what ptime(s) to recommend. Jean-Marc On 01/29/2014 03:53 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > Can you clarify what problem we are trying to solve here? > > Is there a practical problem with implementing the higher values, > or are we just trying to prevent someone using the toolkit > suboptimally? For the latter, guidance only is needed, and nothing > with the strength of SHOULD or MUST. > > Regards > > Keith > >> -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb >> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin >> Sent: 29 January 2014 20:45 To: Magnus Westerlund; >> rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt >> > Maybe we can ask that receivers MUST be able to receive anything > up to 120, but that senders SHOULD use 5, 10, 20, or 40 to avoid > causing the receiver to operate with sub-optimal timing? That being > said, even a ptime of 2.5 ms could possibly end up being used if > someone's transcoding from Opus (which has 2.5 ms frames) to > G.711. > > Jean-Marc > > On 01/29/2014 03:58 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>> WG, >>>> >>>> I reviewed the changes introduced here resolves my previous > comments. >>>> However, I have to raise one question to the WG. >>>> >>>> In Section 3: >>>> >>>> o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz >>>> and any ptime value up to 120 ms - see section 4.5.14 of >>>> [RFC3551] >>>> >>>> It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation >>>> can receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. >>>> It is also good that one can send whatever in that range the >>>> peer requests. However, I would note that it is likely good >>>> that an implementation restrains oneself to request ptime >>>> values from the peer > that are 5 ms >>>> increments and likely 20 ms increments for higher values. I > have the >>>> impression that the used values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30, > 40, 60, 80, >>>> 100, 120 ms. >>>> >>>> Anyone having any position on this? >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Magnus >>>> >>>> On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>>> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of >>>>> the Real-Time > Communication >>>>> in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. >>>>> >>>>> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing >>>>> Requirements Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran >>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages : 6 >>>>> Date : 2014-01-27 >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and >>>>> processing requirements for WebRTC client application and >>>>> endpoint devices. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ >>>>> >>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>>>> >>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the >>>>> time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are >>>>> available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing >>>>> list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>>> Internet-Draft directories: >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing >> list rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJS6W6/AAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9/ccH91P3rytNjlS5/cQLon+RJH5V aa8BwiIPkvxRqmbYyWvi+70w7mIdq0cLHWQ0TCMeiIWEYJRcKCOOQPSfBS279kGt QiFylRnEKVTvkzp6l2XYbngRBH8dPncBHyN0ewfInYzljiqoNHgcTQShuiwuFGIU PXm4Re+4eqicMo4DF+sXGZGT4pIi67CGADtE1cXmoxwWYXIyG13VLEeNqcg3r/BR mLseSHI5b0RthjYUDqy9kPeHXfWvnT0BoNC0eVy8CBDlSzfuk1CVQunayN8n9Foq n4Tjh7YZfuqTTqSMTJi1Oq3Q+LDZJQgv8zkXdVkxxoKP7f7QxCfca5jmtshZhA== =JtDT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fluffy@iii.ca Wed Jan 29 16:23:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9251A041D for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:23:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BzIAoxA3Qvcy for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479C31A041C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1B1A22E255; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:23:28 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:23:25 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:23:35 -0000 On Jan 29, 2014, at 1:58 AM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > WG, >=20 > I reviewed the changes introduced here resolves my previous comments. > However, I have to raise one question to the WG. >=20 > In Section 3: >=20 > o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and any > ptime value up to 120 ms - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] >=20 > It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can = receive > any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is also good that > one can send whatever in that range the peer requests. However, I = would > note that it is likely good that an implementation restrains oneself = to > request ptime values from the peer that are 5 ms increments and likely > 20 ms increments for higher values. I have the impression that the = used > values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. >=20 > Anyone having any position on this? No objections.=20 In practice primes other than 20, 30, 40 , and 60 have high failure = rates - I would expect tons of failures for 5 ms. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in = WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing = Requirements >> Authors : Jean-Marc Valin >> Cary Bran >> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt >> Pages : 6 >> Date : 2014-01-27 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements >> for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jan 29 16:39:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CAD1A0425; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsfQUOC2sUaF; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEDF1A0424; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s0U0dRk3024724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 18:39:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s0U0dQ0K025060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:39:27 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.26]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:39:27 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtcore@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "clue@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-00 Thread-Index: Ac8dU7miUI8F3eIfTMKku34324AzNA== Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:39:25 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B125741@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-00 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:39:33 -0000 To all potential users of the taxonomy document in other working groups. We could do with a few people reading the above draft and identifying omiss= ions, open issues, or corrections, so the editors can get a new version out= prior to the AVTEXT meeting in London. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy/ In particular, those of you who have drafts that might use some of this ter= minology. Please respond to the avtext list. Regards Keith AVTEXT WG cochair.= From fluffy@cisco.com Wed Jan 29 16:39:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECDDF1A045A for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNxeHjGSOyyO for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6EF1A0453 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:39:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1742; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1391042391; x=1392251991; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=hWzzPNnXVBu5CggtyNXIueTbQZ4fiGwKTge0PUIh6nc=; b=Ywom0D3zYHYmyw35p0XaYdSKv41cnuIrOI46ysydzGV/eBC3/lLs17ZI EaswNowTp5rcTaMGGWFxNe+45JeE4J6IguwPEYjLs3QNSoa97k+kxU1Th D2GkltlVyQPgosSkTHLboQy/zLiSTn5hONwF4E3usFgUqjpYw3JJItOKu I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsFALqe6VKtJXG9/2dsb2JhbABZgwyBDr0QgQIWdIIlAQEBAwF+CwIBCBguMiUCBBOHfQjLLxeOTDqDJIEUBJRAg2iSH4Mtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,745,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="300691918" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jan 2014 00:39:50 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com [173.37.183.75]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0U0dosw019987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:39:50 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.76]) by xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com ([173.37.183.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 18:39:50 -0600 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired Thread-Index: AQHPHVPIDvWqa3hd0Eu2GXTSICQjdg== Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:39:49 +0000 Message-ID: <53E06F27-3771-4B70-9820-2D789F5A2620@cisco.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD4634.6090904@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <52DD4634.6090904@alvestrand.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:39:56 -0000 We spent hundreds of hour discussing SDP between this WG and others. Much c= onsensus was reached. The unified plan draft was a tool to help document th= at. Now theses decisions are being moved to the appropriate WG documents as= Harald pointed out below.=20 I=F1aki's proposal to "'drop the absurd rule of SDP the answer MUST have th= e same number of m lines as the offer in order to match them" has so little= support from anywhere that the WG is not spending time discussing that pro= posal. It has been discussed in the past and rejected. I would explain why = it was rejected but I=92m fairly sure I=F1aki understand why and I view thi= s as just moving into trolling at this point. We have got better things to = sort out.=20 On Jan 20, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote= : > I believe that the components of -unified-plan are mainly addressed as: >=20 > - POF/PAN are going to MMUSIC > - BUNDLE is going to MMUSIC > - The one-track-per-M-line is going to be in -rtcweb-jsep (section 5.2.1 = of -05, in particular) >=20 > But a) this is just what I think; the chairs have the task of making deci= sions, and b) I don't have a complete picture of whether there are pieces o= f -unified-plan not covered by the above. >=20 > On 01/20/2014 03:53 PM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote: >> 2014/1/20 Eric Rescorla : >>>> What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer >>>> MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match >>>> them". >>> I don't see that happening. >> In Unified Plan each m line has a diferent (and unique) SSRC >> identifier. That is all we need to match m lines of the offer and the >> answer. From jmvalin@mozilla.com Wed Jan 29 17:52:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3431A03EA for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:52:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eFcrmbRAGglb for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF87E1A0251 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (modemcable130.97-201-24.mc.videotron.ca [24.201.97.130]) (Authenticated sender: jvalin@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9C1DF269C; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:52:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 20:52:00 -0500 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings , Magnus Westerlund References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:52:09 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/29/2014 07:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >> It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can >> receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is >> also good that one can send whatever in that range the peer >> requests. However, I would note that it is likely good that an >> implementation restrains oneself to request ptime values from the >> peer that are 5 ms increments and likely 20 ms increments for >> higher values. I have the impression that the used values are >> like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. >> >> Anyone having any position on this? > > No objections. > > In practice primes other than 20, 30, 40 , and 60 have high > failure rates - I would expect tons of failures for 5 ms. Just to make sure, are you suggesting: "MUST support at least 20, 30, 40, and 60" or "MUST support any ptime, but SHOULD only use 20, 30, 40, or 60"? Jean-Marc >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus >> >> On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the >>> Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the >>> IETF. >>> >>> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing >>> Requirements Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran >>> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages >>> : 6 Date : 2014-01-27 >>> >>> Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and >>> processing requirements for WebRTC client application and >>> endpoint devices. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ >>> >>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time >>> of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available >>> at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 >> Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJS6bBAAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9msUH/iEm+jtj5wIYWA8M2oT1ekhb sYJLtyRU/Lngwdabog5nxBZEj7IWmBJ8r9NeRrQo2GSUvrfhlDMBu8EGaNH9vRkT CNvt50gQpKiDmxcvR9bwKd43rn3IFj34HNcl+yAjxS2yCvp6ADz9hg1kz4FTnAkp 2emn4G78qwPpW9ODUbI1PLkU1kD/3A9Ccqif817dPF+j5DoHUMLaIrn5H7LKL+NF zxSbTq2YSlnKXdsQ98XKi8V7hjimELMj71aNHJ0v0+JPPJCc5QMRY7erWimKDdvO 2zyF31uusiiozVaG1AsRpzAZlSgCtvMfz+w4V1cDI8WoVU4wILpuiO8wf9JK4ss= =5g7m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ibc@aliax.net Thu Jan 30 06:49:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6613D1A0398 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_Tb7ZMwTBLM for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-f182.google.com (mail-qc0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D7A1A037D for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id c9so4964283qcz.41 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=D96S4ku6NSYgtW0dmHaz1XXTkDKsr68eyxWxCAxtir0=; b=JFSgV7T+iJ7IfytyT2D1aNwTYzARbdl+f+cawg8HZXeutR1c3wGS/AR2MMpfKjzO0y 7ogK55kf91aa4I0KdVxsb7jwcO6uowW4o5WS3EjBE6ygk+oxup9OdPQKC84pv0MjsOWB JJmCTWHVsikAzqzbUOTbbToxEg/DETi3vDotnkb6AcQfNazzBvgnup805CuDSqhvm9tW +Vty+ZhwBCAxAXyxaAoFAZWPzdGNxqvZZ4cyqaG4p9LzJl4XE98yb0+opbavxOz/TX6b oxA56yqFw941ZZ8otppzGV+2BsEkVxpk12MaT3zqlwlWfN3b4QeLRJVj9TFVs7Ib99zo ATsA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmd9KRpqBhR8G+rmkFt16MBk30jSaiNxczrWaI2lXuLGsetP/MuuWldFBfW8cSYMMHO4DJc X-Received: by 10.224.72.11 with SMTP id k11mr8542674qaj.91.1391093354580; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:48:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53E06F27-3771-4B70-9820-2D789F5A2620@cisco.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD4634.6090904@alvestrand.no> <53E06F27-3771-4B70-9820-2D789F5A2620@cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 14:49:19 -0000 2014-01-30 Cullen Jennings (fluffy) : > I=C3=B1aki's proposal to "'drop the absurd rule of SDP the answer MUST ha= ve the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match them" has so l= ittle support from anywhere that the WG is not spending time discussing tha= t proposal. It has been discussed in the past and rejected. I would explain= why it was rejected but I=E2=80=99m fairly sure I=C3=B1aki understand why = and I view this as just moving into trolling at this point. Hi Cullen, I don't want to spend more time on this topic (I already tryed to leave it) but I must answer your mail above: 1) I suggested breaking the "m lines rule" in order to resolve a real problem/limitation of SDP O/A, and I suggested it because AFAIK the SDP usage in WebRTC is not yet totally specified (so there could be room for additions/changes). 2) I realized that such a change would indeed break the entire SDP O/A model, so I accepted that it can not take place at this time (may be never). 3) I was not trolling. Said that, there is something I really don't like at all: > It has been discussed in the past and rejected Where? When? Probably before WebRTC was born so not in this WG, right? I don't consider fair that we cannot make questions or proposals for SDP O/A just because somebody already said "no" to the same or a similar proposal 7 years ago in some SIP WG or MMUSIC WG (when WebRTC did not even exist nor its needs). Anyhow, I don't want to reopen this topic, really. Best regards. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Thu Jan 30 08:05:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB3E1A03F0 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZy0_OsDgyAQ for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-x22b.google.com (mail-bk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389EA1A03EF for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id mx11so1480903bkb.16 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CnFc4tiJ6mjegIdznbBZa+FxbpISyNwthb5/K73E1UQ=; b=HAviXd1LNrFYaF79jVdwdgQPr0h54r2btbeOZWOVLs2NgjAk7r9i589jU4uPjU5pCb /qlIeaFGN3QmdcsluQXENKfIj6Vi7tWsigcTXrLZxdTa2bBN4AQnRtVEXY1SG4/1fzT2 7GC6MJOVbbIh9n0Z+7xprmkNaJBWnGhwGY3vpga7aS2pPKYPkT4h1zsjZ1p/B4VEI7ww 3Kp3pu0KIq/ocqMEl26f2cUv2J/7o6qr9FHsLAj2GnRMCCSX/0M/TBOlHQRtKUh8d7w0 FrqonanhRdhukeIqPrgKYXrsDY3aa4u87iVIhoCA3KFXRywWy938eBTP0avRbCohIjsv ABFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.52.14 with SMTP id f14mr96888bkg.36.1391097937361; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: h.o.w.aka.v@gmail.com Received: by 10.205.40.137 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:05:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680AAFC5@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680AAFC5@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:05:37 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ebC-JxVF9PB7UGkKhPD8vcDoY6I Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?SGVydukgVy4=?= To: "Chenxin (Xin)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c37082679ff204f1323a5c Subject: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 16:05:43 -0000 --001a11c37082679ff204f1323a5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: > +1 > > One thing could be decided by the poll is that the MTI video codec candidates are only { H.264, VP8}. Will eliminate many discussions.... > > Best Regards, > Xin > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jenning= s >>Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:13 PM >>To: rtcweb@ietf.org >>Subject: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll >> >> >>Dear WG, >> >>After reviewing the poll results found here: >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the >>chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is required for >>the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of options which did >>not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have >>enough support that they might be the eventual basis of working group >>consensus. The chairs do not view the other options as having sufficient >>support to warrant further working group activity or discussion. >> >>There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious >>support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions >>and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participants in >>the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose between >>them at this time. Unless something comes out of MPEG or MPEG LA or the VP8 Nokia claims/lawsuits are resolved, I think it's unlikely the IPR related objections will be lifted. H.261 did not get the numbrrs, but also got some objections that seemed of a technical nature, but were either relying on other peoples opinions or were expressions of doubt on performance. (Not all objections were like that, but some were.) If the stalemate continues into September, I suggest those objectors test encoder implementations themselves and/or view the already produced samples and form their own opinions. An option that didn't make it to the straw poll: Reconsider Mpeg-1 video (first release 1993) related message: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09794.html + demonstrably better quality/bitrate than H.261 and MJPEG + arbitrary resolutions unlike H.261 + lawsuits and patents concerning H.262/MPEG-2 Video (first release 1995/1996) don't necessarily relate to MPEG-1 implementations; * 3 years in between releases * patents on 20xx tech are unlikely to apply to 1993 implementations As far as I know, the H.261 samples were largely produced without any data on the target devices. When the stalemate continues, can we get some data on those? Available bitrate, resolution, CPU >>The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to >>implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 >>meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its >>energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video >>document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but >>initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI. +1 >>When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect to >>run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to implement. >>This expectation may change, however, based on new information or working >>group experience. >> >>If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2014 >>please let us know by February 4. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Cullen, Magnus, Ted - Herv=E9 --001a11c37082679ff204f1323a5c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, Chenxin (Xin) <hangzhou.chenxin@huawei.com> wrote:
    &g= t; +1
    >
    > One thing could be decided by the poll is that the MT= I video codec candidates are only { H.264, VP8}. Will eliminate many discus= sions....
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > =A0 =A0 =A0Xin
    >
    >
    >&g= t;-----Original Message-----
    >>From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cull= en Jennings
    >>Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:13 PM
    >>To: rtcweb@ietf.org
    >>Subject: [rtcweb] Vid= eo codecs and the staw poll
    >>
    >>
    >>Dear WG,
    >>
    >>After reviewing the poll results found here:
    >>= ;http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.p= df the
    >>chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI = is required for
    >>the WebRTC ecology to develop. =A0 =A0There are = a number of options which did
    >>not garner significant support; es= sentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have
    >>enough support that they might be the eventual basis of working gro= up
    >>consensus. =A0The chairs do not view the other options as hav= ing sufficient
    >>support to warrant further working group activity= or discussion.
    >>
    >>There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, howev= er, nor obvious
    >>support for selecting both. =A0Each has similar = numbers of supporting positions
    >>and objections, and both have th= e support of well over half the participants in
    >>the straw poll. =A0Given that, we are no closer to being able to ch= oose between
    >>them at this time.


    Unless something come= s out of MPEG or MPEG LA or the VP8 Nokia claims/lawsuits
    are resolved, = I think it's unlikely the IPR related objections will be lifted.

    H.261 did not get the numbrrs, but also got some objections that seemed= of a technical nature,
    but were either relying on other peoples opinion= s or were expressions of doubt on performance.
    (Not all objections were = like that, but some were.)
    If the stalemate continues into September, I suggest those objectors test e= ncoder
    implementations themselves and/or view the already produced sampl= es and form their own opinions.

    An option that didn't make it to= the straw poll: Reconsider Mpeg-1 video (first release 1993)
    =A0related message: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current= /msg09794.html
    + demonstrably better quality/bitrate than H.261 and= MJPEG
    + arbitrary resolutions unlike H.261
    + lawsuits and patents concerning= H.262/MPEG-2 Video (first release 1995/1996) don't necessarily relate = to MPEG-1 implementations;
    * 3 years in between releases
    * patent= s on 20xx tech are unlikely to apply to 1993 implementations

    As far as I know, the H.261 samples were largely produced without any d= ata on the target devices.
    When the stalemate continues, can we get some= data on those? Available bitrate, resolution, CPU


    >>The c= hairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to
    >>implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IE= TF 91
    >>meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working grou= p can focus its
    >>energy on completing other work. =A0We do expect= to begin work on the video
    >>document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of Decembe= r, but
    >>initially without specifying which of the two codecs is t= he WG consensus for MTI.


    +1


    >>When we return to= the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect to
    >>run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to i= mplement.
    >>This expectation may change, however, based on new inf= ormation or working
    >>group experience.
    >>
    >>If = anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2014<= br> >>please let us know by February 4.
    >>
    >>Thank you,=
    >>
    >>Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>


    -= Herv=E9 --001a11c37082679ff204f1323a5c-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 30 08:39:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D192D1A03CB for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:39:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1i_-CZSf4Xu for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F221A03C7 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-84-52ea804368bd Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 85.95.23809.3408AE25; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:39:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:39:30 +0100 Message-ID: <52EA8042.2010500@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:39:30 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrGJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5zw6sgg+4WRYs5ux4wWaz9187u wOSxZMlPJo8vlz+zBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGVsff6JqWA3W8W3qcfYGhgXsXYxcnJICJhI tJx/zQRhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4BCjxJPueYwQznJGiTM3vjOCVPEKaEscavgL1MHBwSKgKrFu UQFImE3AQuLmj0Y2EFtUIFji1rQH7BDlghInZz5hAbFFBNQlLj+8ABZnFnCU2N23A2yMsICS xK7/jiCmhIC4RE9jEESFnsSUqy2MELa8RPPW2cwgthDQAQ1NHawTGAVmIVkwC0nLLCQtCxiZ VzGy5yZm5qSXG21iBIbdwS2/VXcw3jkncohRmoNFSZz3w1vnICGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU 4kOMTBycUg2MbIs2/mObtDNrX3lch0n8davP95S/lV8JWGjUuu+0S73t9fbvM9t38m7ayBqa WX8q8U5IiWPIXa7g57vunRNyvp+/2C1Pp3DqJZ2pP77dW5u78ujl70rf62+c27bxpP6Xo+m5 x5TjTbwSNm5fM1U/cWb8pL0bFGoXd0/QfCBcFtIb/dA616IzS4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRABO4cvUJ AgAA Cc: "rtcweb-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWEB WG Agenda requests X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 16:39:37 -0000 WG, The chairs have started planning for the upcoming WG meeting at the London IETF. If you have an issue or proposal that you would like to have agenda time for, please send a email to the chairs. Please include what issues or supporting document that is related to this request and what amount of time you think is required. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From fluffy@iii.ca Thu Jan 30 09:22:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBE31A044A for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:22:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNK7v0-vvzZo for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05871A0417 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFBB8509B6; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:22:47 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:22:44 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> To: Jean-Marc Valin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:22:54 -0000 On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Jean-Marc Valin = wrote: >=20 > On 01/29/2014 07:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can=20 >>> receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is >>> also good that one can send whatever in that range the peer >>> requests. However, I would note that it is likely good that an >>> implementation restrains oneself to request ptime values from the >>> peer that are 5 ms increments and likely 20 ms increments for >>> higher values. I have the impression that the used values are >>> like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. >>>=20 >>> Anyone having any position on this? >>=20 >> No objections. >>=20 >> In practice primes other than 20, 30, 40 , and 60 have high >> failure rates - I would expect tons of failures for 5 ms. >=20 > Just to make sure, are you suggesting: > "MUST support at least 20, 30, 40, and 60" > or > "MUST support any ptime, but SHOULD only use 20, 30, 40, or 60"? >=20 > Jean-Marc Really I don=92t care too much about what it says about what range is = allowed as long as the default is something that has high odds of = working and that the range that is allowed at least includes 20, 30, 40, = and 60. 20 and 30 because that is widely used. 40 because that has some = gains for some people and they think they like it. And 60 because there = are some soft phones written in Java that can only do 60. I think = everything suggested has meant theses goals so I=92ve got no objects to = any of the things proposed. I find the idea of 2.5 ms G.711 packets = mildly amusing. Not sure the case were they would get used but someone = will probably come up with a use case and if browsers want to support = them, fine by me.=20 I suspect what is missing here is that the default ptime in an offer for = g.711 should be 20 and I think you are suggesting a maxptime of 120 ms. = I don=92t think you need to put any restrictions on what ptimes are = allowed other than that. Need something similar for opus and for other = codecs not listed here.=20 The draft seems like it should be clear about ptime and maxptime - a Ref = to 4566 is probably needed.=20 Few nits =85 In the draft there is something wrong with Opus-RTP reference. I=92m not sure I would say "Encryption and authentication issues are beyond the scope of this document." I think = it might be better to say they are covered in security document.=20 From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Thu Jan 30 17:26:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCD11A04F3 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:26:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-gCcJ7CwrVW for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us1.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22391A04EE for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.172.198.29]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B73661908F7E; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:26:34 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1391131599; bh=47QdUShnx4eFqMWg/iNKXjMGvGVgoLizOLkEXOGBWig=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=T6Pmh8lsOLKeBePZSJ4UsyIuIjYfXxfJea+2wWqfDKeBdp7JZTfW77mhaoHmbPbun RTYZ6fO8vB3Un3fT6IfW8lpXJNkF9q2u+582oBE+zkxOcZk5hTns+TPzJPohN4tjTK SOxg0h4Jakju2bpd8LCylNxnC+iQv8awD2Zsnc6Y= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Cb B'" , "'Simon Perreault'" References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> <001701cf19ec$f99791b0$ecc6b510$@co.in> <52E8C9D4.30205@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52E8C9D4.30205@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 06:56:26 +0530 Message-ID: <00a001cf1e23$7a168aa0$6e439fe0$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8c1IZeRneU+LqeS124qlnPQEjmxQBTT+MQ Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A02020A.52EAFBD0.0001, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.138 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:26:46 -0000 Hi Magnus, I can live with Simon text in case it is documented in Sec 4.2 as=20 F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN and TURN servers. Note that TURN support being mandatory=20 does not preclude the browser from supporting=20 additional traversal mechanisms. ---------------------------------------------------------------- F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN servers to use are supplied by other entities than via the web application (i.e. the network provider). Note that TURN support being mandatory=20 does not preclude the browser from supporting=20 additional traversal mechanisms. and also Appendix A: A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to specify several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. Note that TURN support being mandatory=20 does not preclude a Web API from supporting=20 additional traversal mechanisms. Please let me know in case you have any issue in the above text.=20 BTW, just for the record, = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 does not specify the list of traversal mechanism requirements for WebRTC Gateway/Server. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:59 PM > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Cb B'; 'Simon Perreault' > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Partha and WG, >=20 > I don't see any support for the changes you proposes in this > discussion. > What I see some support for is to add a statement making clear that > there might be additional NAT/Firewall traversal mechanisms than > STUN/TURN. Simon proposed: >=20 > "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC > endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." >=20 > However, looking at the document as it is currently written, I am > uncertain where this would be added. The first mention of TURN is in > Section 3.3.4.1, and that section is focused on the global service > provider perspective and the need for location based provisioning of > NAT/Firewall traversal server resources. >=20 > I think it can be added to Section 3.3.5.1 without being misplaced, = but > it would be given a slightly narrower scope. >=20 > I any of you want to be more explicit where this should be included, > please be. If you are not forthcoming I will request the authors to = add > this in what they consider sensible position. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 >=20 > On 2014-01-25 17:46, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your understanding about my firewall/NAT related problem > > statement in this draft. > > > > > > > > I have proposed the firewall/NAT related text by which the specific > > mechanism is not highlighted in the requirement document as there is > no > > WG consensus for any of the mechanism including TURN. It is possible > to > > argue hypothetically in PNTAW alias that PCP is the only mechanism > > required in WebRTC endpoint. Also, I=92m more interested in WebRTC > > gateway/server (Sec 4.3. of > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) requirements = wherein > it > > is not required to support TURN and the related mail thread is > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00181.html. > > > > > > > > IMO, my proposed text without mentioning any firewall/NAT mechanism > in > > the requirement document helps to move forward without depend on the > > solution discussion in PNTAW alias. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Partha > > > > > > > > *From:*Cb B [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22 AM > > *To:* Simon Perreault > > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org; Parthasarathi R > > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" > > > wrote: > >> > >> Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > >> > >>> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, > > they come > >>> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not = other > >>> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be = used > > as the > >>> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a > discussion > >>> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. > >> > >> > >> I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see = your > > proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: > >> > >> "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC > > endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." > >> > >> > > > > +1 for the above text. > > > > CB > > > >> Simon > >> -- > >> DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > >> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > >> STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Fri Jan 31 01:01:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554591A0575 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:01:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5XW11J24N5Sa for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9541A056A for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-1c-52eb66737629 Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C0.7F.04249.3766BE25; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:01:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:01:38 +0100 Message-ID: <52EB6672.5090704@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:01:38 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , 'Cb B' , 'Simon Perreault' References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> <001701cf19ec$f99791b0$ecc6b510$@co.in> <52E8C9D4.30205@ericsson.com> <00a001cf1e23$7a168aa0$6e439fe0$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <00a001cf1e23$7a168aa0$6e439fe0$@co.in> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW5x2usgg8vzRSxWffnIZDH5Ux+r xdp/7ewW3Uv/sziweOycdZfdY8mSn0weH+Z/YfdY98E8gCWKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK+PQun2M BcssKp7PmMzUwPhBp4uRg0NCwERi3S73LkZOIFNM4sK99WxdjFwcQgJHGCWW7fzIDOEsZ5R4 uGo9C0gVr4C2xMZbn9hBbBYBVYk/79rB4mwCFhI3fzSygdiiAsESt6Y9YIeoF5Q4OfMJC8gg EYEGRolJ+1qYQBLMAqISrx5OYQaxhQXCJPY/PcEEsW0fi8T0J8fBEpxA57XMmskIcaq4RE9j EESvnsSUqy2MELa8RPPW2WDlQkDHNTR1sE5gFJqFZPcsJC2zkLQsYGRexchRnFqclJtuZLCJ ERjUB7f8ttjBePmvzSFGaQ4WJXHej2+dg4QE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUw8qg5 yrHVnWO2yDlhc2e1z1P7+UsmyR1JEk45E//83kSPrk2ZT4OLvbfwLl0ozv347KrTD39/+6n+ VOP5NzM70clHfjG8UrsqkLQ3fmOYqsTUZ0wZOSbick2O79btu293ka9lyt2/N4pmpe1UdViy 59KXbMMsqRP8Asd31oa3bmdb1BD2ka1puxJLcUaioRZzUXEiALJ2iuc4AgAA Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:01:47 -0000 Hi Partha, Personal opinion: I think the below places the text in the wrong context. The note is in my mind relevant in the context of the general NAT/FW traversal requirements, not the one discussing need to support multiple NAT/FW traversal servers. Thus, I think Section 3.3.2 and thus requirement F29. Or potentially regarding Requirement F2. Is more appropriate places to include this. Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-31 02:26, Parthasarathi R wrote: > Hi Magnus, > > I can live with Simon text in case it is documented in Sec 4.2 as > > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > and TURN servers. Note that TURN support being mandatory > does not preclude the browser from supporting > additional traversal mechanisms. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > servers to use are supplied by other entities > than via the web application (i.e. the network > provider). Note that TURN support being mandatory > does not preclude the browser from supporting > additional traversal mechanisms. > > and also Appendix A: > > A22 The Web API must provide means for the > application to specify several STUN and/or > TURN servers to use. Note that TURN support being mandatory > does not preclude a Web API from supporting > additional traversal mechanisms. > > Please let me know in case you have any issue in the above text. > > BTW, just for the record, draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 > does not specify the list of traversal mechanism requirements for WebRTC > Gateway/Server. > > Thanks > Partha > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:59 PM >> To: Parthasarathi R; 'Cb B'; 'Simon Perreault' >> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- >> requirements-12 >> >> Hi Partha and WG, >> >> I don't see any support for the changes you proposes in this >> discussion. >> What I see some support for is to add a statement making clear that >> there might be additional NAT/Firewall traversal mechanisms than >> STUN/TURN. Simon proposed: >> >> "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC >> endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." >> >> However, looking at the document as it is currently written, I am >> uncertain where this would be added. The first mention of TURN is in >> Section 3.3.4.1, and that section is focused on the global service >> provider perspective and the need for location based provisioning of >> NAT/Firewall traversal server resources. >> >> I think it can be added to Section 3.3.5.1 without being misplaced, but >> it would be given a slightly narrower scope. >> >> I any of you want to be more explicit where this should be included, >> please be. If you are not forthcoming I will request the authors to add >> this in what they consider sensible position. >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus >> >> >> On 2014-01-25 17:46, Parthasarathi R wrote: >>> Hi Simon, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your understanding about my firewall/NAT related problem >>> statement in this draft. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have proposed the firewall/NAT related text by which the specific >>> mechanism is not highlighted in the requirement document as there is >> no >>> WG consensus for any of the mechanism including TURN. It is possible >> to >>> argue hypothetically in PNTAW alias that PCP is the only mechanism >>> required in WebRTC endpoint. Also, I'm more interested in WebRTC >>> gateway/server (Sec 4.3. of >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) requirements wherein >> it >>> is not required to support TURN and the related mail thread is >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00181.html. >>> >>> >>> >>> IMO, my proposed text without mentioning any firewall/NAT mechanism >> in >>> the requirement document helps to move forward without depend on the >>> solution discussion in PNTAW alias. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Partha >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:*Cb B [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22 AM >>> *To:* Simon Perreault >>> *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org; Parthasarathi R >>> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" >> >> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a écrit : >>>> >>>>> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, >>> they come >>>>> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other >>>>> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used >>> as the >>>>> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a >> discussion >>>>> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. >>>> >>>> >>>> I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see your >>> proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: >>>> >>>> "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC >>> endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." >>>> >>>> >>> >>> +1 for the above text. >>> >>> CB >>> >>>> Simon >>>> -- >>>> DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca >>>> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca >>>> STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From fluffy@iii.ca Fri Jan 31 13:24:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3603F1A0443 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:24:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RxbkYIH-FT0M for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA751A03FE for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.4.101] (unknown [75.159.25.213]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C672250AA2; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 16:24:29 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 14:24:27 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> To: Jean-Marc Valin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:24:38 -0000 Jean-Marc and I were talking about this on IM and here=92s my proposal = for all this stuff.=20 We keep the part about what happens with RTP in draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio = but move the parts about SDP off to JSEP. I think that means all we need = here is basically MUST implement G.711 & Opus along with their RTP = payload formats.=20 The ranges of size of packets, frames and other things seem to be = adequately covered by the specs for the codecs and WebRTC is not = chaining theses codecs so seems good enough. The JSEP draft that is = pointing at all the parts of SDP that need to be supported can deal with = the ptime and maxptime in SDP.=20 Cullen On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Jean-Marc Valin = wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 >=20 > On 01/29/2014 07:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can=20 >>> receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is >>> also good that one can send whatever in that range the peer >>> requests. However, I would note that it is likely good that an >>> implementation restrains oneself to request ptime values from the >>> peer that are 5 ms increments and likely 20 ms increments for >>> higher values. I have the impression that the used values are >>> like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. >>>=20 >>> Anyone having any position on this? >>=20 >> No objections. >>=20 >> In practice primes other than 20, 30, 40 , and 60 have high >> failure rates - I would expect tons of failures for 5 ms. >=20 > Just to make sure, are you suggesting: > "MUST support at least 20, 30, 40, and 60" > or > "MUST support any ptime, but SHOULD only use 20, 30, 40, or 60"? >=20 > Jean-Marc >=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>>=20 >>> Magnus >>>=20 >>> On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20 >>>> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the=20 >>>> Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the=20 >>>> IETF. >>>>=20 >>>> Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing >>>> Requirements Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran >>>> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages >>>> : 6 Date : 2014-01-27 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and >>>> processing requirements for WebRTC client application and >>>> endpoint devices. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=20 >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ >>>>=20 >>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:=20 >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>>>=20 >>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:=20 >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time >>>> of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available >>>> at tools.ietf.org. >>>>=20 >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=20 >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce=20 >>>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org=20 >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20 >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>>=20 >>> Magnus Westerlund >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80=20 >>> Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 > _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org=20 >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >=20 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ >=20 > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJS6bBAAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9msUH/iEm+jtj5wIYWA8M2oT1ekhb > sYJLtyRU/Lngwdabog5nxBZEj7IWmBJ8r9NeRrQo2GSUvrfhlDMBu8EGaNH9vRkT > CNvt50gQpKiDmxcvR9bwKd43rn3IFj34HNcl+yAjxS2yCvp6ADz9hg1kz4FTnAkp > 2emn4G78qwPpW9ODUbI1PLkU1kD/3A9Ccqif817dPF+j5DoHUMLaIrn5H7LKL+NF > zxSbTq2YSlnKXdsQ98XKi8V7hjimELMj71aNHJ0v0+JPPJCc5QMRY7erWimKDdvO > 2zyF31uusiiozVaG1AsRpzAZlSgCtvMfz+w4V1cDI8WoVU4wILpuiO8wf9JK4ss=3D > =3D5g7m > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >=20 From tterriberry@mozilla.com Fri Jan 31 13:39:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835021A048C for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:39:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qx6bn2J_g2ER for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7127B1A0456 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.250.6.54] (corp-240.mv.mozilla.com [63.245.220.240]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59D32F30F0 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:39:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52EC1817.50903@mozilla.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:39:35 -0800 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.16.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> <4BC6E1C2-36F4-46D4-8244-1258DBE0E68C@iii.ca> <52E9B040.7010004@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:40 -0000 Cullen Jennings wrote: > We keep the part about what happens with RTP in draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio but move the parts about SDP off to JSEP. I think that means all we need here is basically MUST implement G.711 & Opus along with their RTP payload formats. > > The ranges of size of packets, frames and other things seem to be adequately covered by the specs for the codecs and WebRTC is not chaining theses codecs so seems good enough. The JSEP draft that is pointing at all the parts of SDP that need to be supported can deal with the ptime and maxptime in SDP. Sounds good to me.
    I had thought I had previously done a detailed review of t= his doc, but I can't find it to know whether changes suggested have bee= n incorporated. So, I have re-reviewed the document and I think it's al= most ready to progress. =A0 I think it needs some editorial clarifications = and nits to be fixed as summarized below. =A0 Note, I did not review the ap= pendix.=A0

    Regards,
    Mary.=A0

    In general, I still find the style of this document very dif= ficult to grok since the requirements are not grouped in categories and one= has to keep switching back and forth in the document to match requirements= to use cases. =A0

    Questions/Comments for clarification:
    -= ---------------------------------------------------
    1) =A0Section= 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence. =A0It's not clear to me that "e.= g., a telephone" is meaningful. =A0I don't think you're intend= ing to interworking with a legacy PSTN connected black phone. =A0So, it mig= ht be more accurate to say " e.g., a mobile phone or a SIP UA". = =A0
    2) Section 3.3.1.1. =A0Next to last paragraph. =A0I'm not sure wha= t you mean by different "makes". =A0I think you mean different ty= pes of devices (e.g., mobile, SIP UA, etc. ). =A0 That all said, I don'= t think that's not so relevant. =A0I think simply stating different OSs= and different browsers is sufficient.=A0
    3) Section 3.3.6.1. =A0It's not at all clear to me why this = requirement is considered specific to WebRTC. =A0I would think the access n= etwork changes should be transparent to WebRTC. =A0Certainly, the device ne= eds to know what's happening, but I think whether this works is entirel= y based on the internals of the device and the specific access network tech= nology, and not WebRTC application. =A0=A0
    4) Section 3.3.10.1. =A0Why is F24 not considered an additional requir= ement here? =A0Also, do you not need to have a statement as to what other u= se case is the basis for this one such that the core requirements are refer= ence? =A0=A0
    5) Section 3.3.11.1, 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. =A0I don't under= stand what this is trying to say. =A0 What is meant by "enhance intell= igibility"? And, what is meant by "pans the audio from different = participants differently when rendering the audio".=A0
    [As an aside, I will note that some of the CLUE use cases likely encom= pass what you are trying to communicate here in this requirements (includin= g subsequent paragraphs and the last "Note:"), so you may want to= look at those and use similar terminology and concepts, that CLUE spent a = lot of time developing. ]=A0
    6) Section 3.4. I would expect F27 to =A0be referenced by at least one= of these use cases. =A0=A0
    7) Section 4.2.=A0
    - Genera= l: =A0I am a bit confused as there are requirements in this section that ar= en't referenced in section 3, including F19, F23, and F27 =A0. =A0Perha= ps, that's because there are some missing references in section 3 (see = item 7)? =A0If not, then why are they there. =A0At a minimum you should add= a sentence to section 4.1 indicating that not all the requirements are der= ived from the use cases (contrary to what is currently stated). =A0
    - What's the difference between F24 and F34? =A0 =A0
    - F= 30. =A0I had to read this several times to understand it due to structure. = =A0I would suggest changing as follows:
    OLD:
       F30     The browser must be able to use the screen (or
           a specific area of the screen) or what a certain
           application displays on the screen to generate
           streams.
    NEW:=A0

    F30    =
 The browser must be able to generate streams using the entire user display=
, a=A0specific area of the user's display or the information being disp=
layed by a specific application. 
    <=
span style=3D"font-family:arial">             On this one, I also think it =
would be good to clarify what type of stream - are you talking about using =
protocol to share content or or is this just a video stream?  Or would you =
have two separate requirement to cover both of these?

    - F32. =A0I can't quite grok this one. =A0May= be you are trying to say something like the following?
    OLD:
    = 
     F32     There browser must support that STUN and TURN
           servers to use are supplied by other entities
           than via the web application (i.e. the network
           provider).
    NEW:=A0

    F32 = The browser must support the use of STUN and TURN servers that are supplied by entities other than the web application (i.e. the network provider).

    8) Section 7. =A0I hav= e mixed feelings about leaving this list with URLs in the document. =A0I th= ink it's good to highlight the use cases that weren't incorporated = and why they weren't. =A0I think it would add a lot more value to provi= de a concise summary of the reasons they weren't added than just includ= ing links, in particular, since we usually don't like to publish RFCs w= ith links. =A0




    Nits:
    ------
    1) Section 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence, "at= least one of the end-user client" -> =A0"at least one of the = end-user clients"
    2) Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence:
    - =A0"retr= ives" -> "retrieves"
    - add a section reference = for "Simple Video Communication Service" =A0
    3) =A0Sect= ion 3.2. , next to last sentence. "retrieved from" -> "de= rived from" =A0
    4) Section 3.3.5.1, 3rd paragraph,=A0
    - 1st sentence. "= session" - "session"
    - 2nd sentence. "straddl= e the boundary between the internal network and external." -> "= ;straddles the boundary between the internal and external networks.=A0
    5) Section 3.3.5.1, 4th paragraph. =A0 "they still want to have t= he traffic to stay" -> "they still want the traffic to say&quo= t;
    6) Section 3.3.61. 1st paragraph. I'm not sure why this en= ds with ":"
    7) Section 3.3.6.1, 2nd paragraph. =A0 "device used by one of the= users have several" -> "device used by one of the users has s= everal"
    8) Section 3.3.11.1, 1st para, 1st sentence. =A0&quo= t;In this use case is the Simple..." -> =A0"In this use case, = the Simple...." =A0
    9) Section 3.3.11.1 3rd from last paragraph. =A0"use experience&q= uot; -> "user experience"
    10) Section 3.4.3.1, 2nd p= aragraph. =A0 "participant send" -> "participant sends&qu= ot; =A0=A0
    11) Section 4.2:
    - F35. "of that streams" -> &q= uot;that streams"=A0



    O= n Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.wes= terlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
    WG,

    This is related to:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements/

    We have held WG last call and there has been updates to the document to
    resolve the WG last call comments. It is now time to finish up this
    document and request publication of it. I am the document shepherd for
    this document and will prepare my write-up of the document and in that
    process do the necessary reviews.

    I also asked the WG for input on two open issues that needs to be closed prior to publication request. So please review these and provide your
    input on them.

    This is your chance to verify that your comments has been addressed in
    the revision. Please provide any feedback on the document within the
    next week, i.e. no later than the 22 Feb.

    Note, that I will require that the WG approves of any changes in this
    state, rather than any silence is approval model. So if you want some
    change to go into the document at this stage there need to (rough)
    consensus to introduce it and clearly shown support.


    Cheers

    Magnus Westerlund

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ericsson AB =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | Phone =A0+46 10 7148287
    F=E4r=F6gatan 6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | Mobile +46 73 0949079
    SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --089e016347f0374c0a04f0088d4d-- From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jan 15 17:41:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D421AE13E for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.529 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.529 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B_GRL142fr2w for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DE01ADFD1 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s0G1f1g3016146; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:41:01 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3c2f_7a9a_4142e1c4_7e4f_11e3_b780_001e6722eec2; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:41:00 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39E9BF539; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:41:00 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52D738A3.3020707@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:40:51 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Leslie References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140115143207.GD8358@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140115143207.GD8358@verdi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 01:41:20 -0000 On 2014/01/15 23:32, John Leslie wrote: > I have experienced such latencies. It's really painful. But recall > that there was useful earth-to-moon conferencing -- so I don't think > we should forbid such latencies: it feels like an application-level > consideration. Re. earth-to-moon conferencing: Just because it worked for carefully selected and well-trained astronauts and ground personnel doesn't mean it will be easy for everyday users :-(. Regards, Martin. From ron@debian.org Wed Jan 15 23:17:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E711AE22E for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:17:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxzFW-HMPTK0 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net [IPv6:2001:44b8:8060:ff02:300:1:2:6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECDB1AE2D7 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp118-210-162-172.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net (HELO audi.shelbyville.oz) ([118.210.162.172]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 16 Jan 2014 17:46:58 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337954F8F3 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:46:42 +1030 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at audi.shelbyville.oz Received: from audi.shelbyville.oz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (audi.shelbyville.oz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id woLrRYXE-K2s for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:46:41 +1030 (CST) Received: by audi.shelbyville.oz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 76E954F902; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:46:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:46:41 +1030 From: Ron To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140116071641.GY3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> References: <20140112205608.GG47523@verdi> <20140115143207.GD8358@verdi> <52D738A3.3020707@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <52D738A3.3020707@it.aoyama.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:17:14 -0000 On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:40:51AM +0900, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: > On 2014/01/15 23:32, John Leslie wrote: > > > I have experienced such latencies. It's really painful. But recall > >that there was useful earth-to-moon conferencing -- so I don't think > >we should forbid such latencies: it feels like an application-level > >consideration. > > Re. earth-to-moon conferencing: Just because it worked for carefully > selected and well-trained astronauts and ground personnel doesn't > mean it will be easy for everyday users :-(. Wait. You have to be a carefully selected astronaut to get a CB or Amateur Radio licence, or to use a satellite phone? Why did nobody tell me this before?? I completely agree that calling the customer service center of the monopoly telco here is a world of pain and fail[1] since they moved their call centers offshore and put them behind a poor quality VoIP link -- but they reassure us that it's perfectly acceptable. And they should know right? They're the well-trained experts at this. Floating in a most peculiar way, Ron [1] When the line quality of your support call center is worse than the phone I'm calling to report a serious line fault on then the message in the subtext is at least crystal clear! From harald@alvestrand.no Thu Jan 16 05:11:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97BD1AE21E for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 05:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9_eG1r2FKXZX for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 05:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893721AE076 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 05:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B473D39E173 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:11:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e3yRA2KV04-J for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:11:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:3019:b032:9b2e:e5e3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:3019:b032:9b2e:e5e3]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39F8939E01E for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:11:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D7DA7B.2030503@alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:11:23 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140115134438.GB8358@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20140115134438.GB8358@verdi> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding Delay X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:11:46 -0000 On 01/15/2014 02:44 PM, John Leslie wrote: > Stephan Wenger wrote: >> As for the delay introduced by the transcoding engine alone, let me note >> that the single or two frame delay commonly attributed to transcoding is >> realistic only for straightforward PPP type coding. > I agree that seems optimistic... > >> My understanding is that VP8, in its default encoder settings, uses >> much more complex GOP structures for error resilience and coding >> efficiency reasons. I have no idea where this idea comes from. The dependency structures of VP8 when used in interactive mode are often quite complex, with the purpose of minimizing recovery time when frames are lost or damaged, but dependencies are always backwards-pointing; there is no rearrangement of picture order. From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 16 06:03:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB7E1AE2CF for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:03:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RWK9Pjm-Wa71 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A65E1AE2CB for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-63-52d7e6acdb7b Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AE.ED.27941.CA6E7D25; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:03:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.89) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:03:24 +0100 Message-ID: <52D7E69C.2000405@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:03:08 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements@tools.ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrDJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6aZ9eDDPpPylpsvjmJ0WLtv3Z2 ByaPJUt+Mnl8ufyZLYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStj18f5TAWb+So+/UpuYDzC3cXIySEhYCKx cnsDM4QtJnHh3no2EFtI4AijxNeHQDYXkL2cUWLu5G0sIAleAW2JJc9ugzWwCKhKHH9xgh3E ZhOwkLj5oxGsWVQgWOLWtAfsEPWCEidnPmEBGSQisIJRYsOUt2AJYQEXib3TtwIlOIA2i0v0 NAaBhJkF9CSmXG1hhLDlJZq3zmaGOEhboqGpg3UCI/8sJGNnIWmZhaRlASPzKkaO4tTipNx0 I4NNjMAQO7jlt8UOxst/bQ4xSnOwKInzfnzrHCQkkJ5YkpqdmlqQWhRfVJqTWnyIkYmDU6qB cULOhW/yi3ewTXjTpsh0xEvZ8Fiv6v1VMrcdxXYYcsp4e5ilJK4+vvZk9J9N98P63jB3Tf3n dP++S5NTLpPaOdu983v8Dxwv7uuI3fBtn5RDrp187C4f/bZ3l5Snp0ZlLw+6z/RxoXHrCZ2d kw4+KLxl9t/i17WJl0Or31z/nbX4xnLuwvLbq5RYijMSDbWYi4oTAUBZevn/AQAA Subject: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:03:39 -0000 Hi, As part of preparing the Doc shepherd write-up I have reviewed the draft and have the following comments and suggestions for improvements. I have to note that I found violations of formal requirements in this documents. So these are all suggestions for improvements. 1. After the WG last call this draft implemented half of my suggestion of making clear what additional requirements use case resulted in. However, it didn't implemented the part where I suggested that on the first occurrence of a requirement, the full requirement text needs to be included. I note that also Mary Barnes commented on the current format making things hard to read. 2. Abstract: Requirements on the browser functionality are derived from use-cases. Shouldn't there be a "the" before use-cases in this sentence? 3. Section 3.3.8 title: Simple Video Communication Service with sharing Isn't simply having sharing in the title a bit unclear? Shouldn't this be "Desktop" or "Application" sharing? 4. section 4.1: F26 It must be possible to move from one network interface to another one I think it is unclear what shall move in this requirement. Wouln't it be clearer to state this like this? F26 The communication session must survive across a change of the network interface used by the session. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From andrew.hutton@unify.com Thu Jan 16 06:18:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42D31AE2FE for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:18:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8508V0qnLuNs for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx11.unify.com (mx11.unify.com [62.134.46.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF8D1AE2C3 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.234]) by mx11.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id 12F751EB84AC; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:18:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.183]) by MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.234]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:18:20 +0100 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: Magnus Westerlund , "Chenxin (Xin)" , Christer Holmberg , Parthasarathi R , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Thread-Index: AQHPEdtuhqCfZYsCuU6wr1OtSCpQQJqHXPkA Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:18:19 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17CB9A66@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:18:40 -0000 Some comments in the text below. As a general comment I suggest changing all the "FW" abbreviations to "Fire= wall" are have at least a first use definition. Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > Sent: 15 January 2014 10:20 > To: Chenxin (Xin); Hutton, Andrew; Christer Holmberg; Parthasarathi R; > rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > WG, >=20 > It has been quite some time since the WG last call ended and a new > revision was submitted. As Document Shepherd I want to push this > document to publication request. >=20 > Chenxin proposed below three different sets of changes to the document. > Does the WG support making these changes? Please indicate within the > next week if you support or want to reject these changes. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Magnus >=20 >=20 > On 2013-10-17 12:23, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > I think you means F29 not F27:). When I read it , I realize that > there > > is cross and ambiguous between 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 > > > > > > > > More details: > > > > > > > > The topic of 3.3.2 is "Simple Video Communication Service, *NAT/FW* > > that blocks UDP". But in the description and requirement, only *NAT* > is > > considered. > > > > The topic of 3.3.3 is "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that > > only allows http", But only *http proxy* deployed scenarios is > considered. > > > > > > > > There are other usecases " FW block UDP, incoming TCP, Http > allowing > > FW without http proxy deplolyed under the permission of FW policy" , > > which is lost in the description. If we need consider these usecases > , I > > suggest to make some change to the description. > > > > > > > > Proposal 1 : > > > > > > > > add FW related words to section 3.3.2 > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3.3.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks UDP > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.1. Description > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > Communication > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > the > > > > users is behind a NAT*/FW* that blocks UDP traffic. > > > > . [AndyH] - I support this change. > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > F29 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > data to a peer in the presence of NATs *and FWs* that > > > > block UDP traffic ,* when FW policy allows WebRTC > traffic*. [AndyH] - I support this change. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Proposal 2: If the" Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > > case is impliedly included in F29. I suggest to change the topics of > > 3.3.3 to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows > > traffic via a http proxy". So the 3.3.3 is a specific case. > > [AndyH] Yes the heading of 3.3.3 should have been changed during the last e= dit to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows traffic via= a HTTP Proxy". I support this change. > > > > > > Proposal 3: If " Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > case > > need to be explicitly mentioned. I suggest to add some descriptions > to 3.3.3 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3.3.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows http > > > > > > > > 3.3.3.1. Description > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > Communication > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > the > > > > users is behind a http allowing FW or a FW that only allows > traffic > > via a HTTP Proxy. > > > > [AndyH] I don't believe the intention here was to state a requirement that = WebRTC media should be able to flow through a FW only allowing HTTP. There= fore I think the original description is ok it is just the heading that nee= ds to change.=20 > > > > 3.3.3.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > F37 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > data to a peer in the presence of http allowing FWs or FWs > > that only > > > > allows traffic via a HTTP Proxy, when FW policy > > > > allows WebRTC traffic. > > [AndyH] The existing text is in the 012 draft is ok and I don't think this = change is needed as again I don't believe the intention here was to state a= requirement that WebRTC media should be able to flow through a FW only all= owing HTTP. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Xin > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 16 07:50:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BA51AE38B for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:50:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opLeKuJTFfyc for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9F21AE37E for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:50:25 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-04-52d7ffb48579 Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D4.B8.27941.4BFF7D25; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:50:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:50:12 +0100 Message-ID: <52D7FFA5.6060901@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:49:57 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFuphluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rnfr/+tBBjcP8lh0TGazWPuvnd2i ca6dA7PHlN8bWT12zrrL7rFkyU+mAOYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsErown528yF0zirvjSeJa5gfEb RxcjJ4eEgInEqqP/mSFsMYkL99azdTFycQgJHGGU+HXwLzuEs5xRYvL8c+wgVbwC2hI9p0+y gNgsAqoSaw4sYQWx2QQsJG7+aGQDsUUFgiVuTXsAVS8ocXLmE7B6EYE8iSWTJjJ2MXJwCAso SZy/zAMSFhIIkLj8tgWshFMgUOLj3vfMICUSAuISPY1BIGFmAT2JKVdbGCFseYnmrbOZIVq1 JRqaOlgnMArOQrJsFpKWWUhaFjAyr2LkKE4tTspNNzLYxAgM0YNbflvsYLz81+YQozQHi5I4 78e3zkFCAumJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGBU3rVdKrsjyr9nopc1c/pY5V+TDC90P j62yKtxkZ62ynxWyecWaowk30vYcqA5XdD1szes4WffUtM6pCQxLbjks9PzYYvbOqnWh3JNj wjoqnAULxWy4vs9uN5vG+G0RS8z+/Jus+sVTPe061yU+tXkm2H5o3/LWyc6fXl/fodB8fEaX roDVaSWW4oxEQy3mouJEAAQ1nYIfAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw poll tabulation X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:50:28 -0000 WG, I have updated the spreadsheet to correct a number of error spotted by Harald. The following has been changed to the given correct values: Mike Linksvayer Option 5 to Acceptable David Benham Option 4 to Acceptable Daniel-Constantin Mierla Option 6 as Acceptable (A) (instead of AA) Jeremy Fuller Option 6 as No Jeremy Fuller Option 7 as Yes Adam Roach Option 12 as No Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-14 18:08, Ted Hardie wrote: > The chairs currently have the tabulation of the straw poll as found here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au1skjUwD-8EdE5NdGF2MFpEYWxpSGJiYmRSWW5uOWc#gid=0 > > The same data is in an XLS spreadsheet, attached. If you see errors in > our tabulation, please send a pointer to the email in which the straw > poll was answered in order to make a correction, highlighting where the > tabulation is incorrect. > > Thanks, > > Ted, Magnus, Cullen -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From stewe@stewe.org Thu Jan 16 09:04:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2035A1AE370 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBfkOuT-euWv for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1blp0181.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60D31AE395 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.22) by CO1PR07MB364.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.75.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.842.7; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:04:17 +0000 Received: from CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.85]) by CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.186]) with mapi id 15.00.0842.003; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:04:17 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: Harald Alvestrand , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Transcoding Delay Thread-Index: AQHPEffzyPg2TegurU2vIKkJtwnEYpqHVPiA//+67gA= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:04:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B114B2D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140115134438.GB8358@verdi> <52D7DA7B.2030503@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <52D7DA7B.2030503@alvestrand.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [12.226.90.11] x-forefront-prvs: 0093C80C01 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(689001)(679001)(779001)(479174003)(377454003)(199002)(189002)(52034003)(51704005)(24454002)(31966008)(87936001)(74366001)(36756003)(92726001)(4396001)(69226001)(92566001)(47976001)(47446002)(76796001)(49866001)(50986001)(76786001)(85306002)(74662001)(81816001)(74502001)(51856001)(47736001)(83322001)(79102001)(54316002)(81686001)(80976001)(53806001)(66066001)(65816001)(80022001)(63696002)(81542001)(2656002)(74876001)(54356001)(87266001)(83072002)(76482001)(74706001)(56816005)(90146001)(46102001)(81342001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(77096001)(59766001)(77982001)(93516002)(93136001)(56776001)(85852003)(42262001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CO1PR07MB364; H:CO1PR07MB363.namprd07.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:12.226.90.11; FPR:; RD:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <80B8C5270BCC8F4B9CB52C26B87ED0F9@namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Transcoding Delay X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:04:35 -0000 On 1/16/14, 5:11, "Harald Alvestrand" wrote: >On 01/15/2014 02:44 PM, John Leslie wrote: >> Stephan Wenger wrote: >>> As for the delay introduced by the transcoding engine alone, let me >>>note >>> that the single or two frame delay commonly attributed to transcoding >>>is >>> realistic only for straightforward PPP type coding. >> I agree that seems optimistic... >> >>> My understanding is that VP8, in its default encoder settings, uses >>> much more complex GOP structures for error resilience and coding >>> efficiency reasons. > >I have no idea where this idea comes from. > >The dependency structures of VP8 when used in interactive mode are often >quite complex, with the purpose of minimizing recovery time when frames >are lost or damaged, but dependencies are always backwards-pointing; >there is no rearrangement of picture order. That=B9s what I thought, and tried to express, and apparently failed. Additional delay over straightforward PPP coding comes in only when you loose something and want to take advantage of your complex GOP structure. That additional delay is certainly less than the delay you would catch by coding an I picture and sending that over a bandwidth-limited link, which is one reason of many why things wrt. GOP structures are as they are in modern systems. (That feature, by the way, is the same in modern H.264 implementations and VP8 implementations, and, obviously, it=B9s an encoder/sending system choice.) Stephan > > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From derhoermi@gmx.net Fri Jan 17 10:07:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7880E1AE169 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:07:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EO3D1CpvdbkL for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0113C1AE179 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:07:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from netb ([47.65.15.1]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lomql-1VOpWA1EUd-00grZh for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:06:53 +0100 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:06:53 +0100 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Dm5Cp3bhMkJ8jESX3ND8/0pIFrAaIQvwtZk9OFAlY7oKPNXBRWB DDJv0hp14vh8jdgDqrxWZqOjGJpkSEOTkZ+HhGplU0831skE2twsBoznYLxULKGETI9rnMa y8mxe9W/wLNwAsE1hshvoLlYx/GsH3T5x6AXF9swAaZlrV+tirmx9H4qHKEIgbsmfxMEJXu Y+3JA4p0YJmyO119JFgSw== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Straw Poll on Video Codec Alternatives X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:07:11 -0000 * Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >The current Working Group charter says "the working group will try to >avoid encumbered technologies that require royalties or other encum- >brances that would prevent such technologies from being easy to use". > >It seems many potential implementers and users would be unable to ob- >tain H.264 licenses under non-discriminatory and reasonable terms for >private and commercial use. Current H.264 licensing practises are also >often unclear and are likely to put various parties at risk. > >A simple example for the latter point is the distribution of recorded >WebRTC sessions on a web site that generates revenue in some form. It >is likely people are going to do that, but doing so in a legally sound >manner is often unduly burdensome under current licensing practises. A practical example for the confusion around the subject is the recent RfC in the Wikimedia community on H.264 support on their websites. On https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=114053933 the proposal claims that "Merely distributing MP4 files never requires a patent license." On https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=114147018 on the other hand the proposal is "If this RFC passes, we would seek to obtain an "Internet Broadcast" license", and that quote is part of a larger text trying to address other points of confusion such as whether users need or have license to upload their H.264 content to begin with. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Sat Jan 18 10:18:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2951ADF90 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:18:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.034 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.034 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1sIM2Dp5wK82 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us1.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5B91ADF6B for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.167.205.119]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 34EF019088A3; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 18:18:12 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390069099; bh=s5cB05jTn5T9tZ4kqS5hqXsBDM5PFVQ67ygjiwu7Bu8=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DYuSEwHx+uv1Ccd7Pi2p/CK0pp+antF9BT6YzfGRvl1KIuBWa0fy4nn4ZFY8lcmqE KwkcN5ya0J/MBw3IYCNRZKAjZXLQ81y2eDuUtz6PzGnBaFChSCANume/mWZCIuZEoa 4qSgAAMheeKoupj3JB8JELep8y9gEu2agrR1Bwlg= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin \(Xin\)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <000d01cecdb2$63c1ef90$2b45ceb0$@co.in> <52D6642A.7010809@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52D6642A.7010809@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 23:48:00 +0530 Message-ID: <006201cf1479$a4fe6ed0$eefb4c70$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8R3WBp4rRhOOIaRB6ObpzdjfN4XQCmZGxA Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020201.52DAC56B.00DA, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.138 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 18:18:57 -0000 Hi Magnus, I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server in the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the requirement.=20 ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever = browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. TURN server is good in = case of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred approach for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is discussed in PNTAW = as http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. So, I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this mail = thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias discussion. Please = let me know your opinion on the same. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:04 PM > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer > Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Partha, >=20 > I see this as an outstanding question on the use-cases document and I > want to resolve it prior to the publication request. >=20 > I want to check my understanding of the points you bring up. See = below. >=20 > On 2013-10-20 18:35, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > Hi Xin & all, > > > > > > > > Apart from modified F29 by Xin, the following requirement has to be > > discussed: > > > > 1) New requirement for blocking incoming TCP connection: > > > > a. The browser must be able to send streams and data to a = peer > in > > the presence of NATs and FWs that block UDP traffic and incoming TCP > > connection >=20 > So the point of this requirement would be to differentiate to the = other > existing requirements that a NAT/FW combination may provide no UDP and > no support for incoming TCP. Thus, if one goes into solution space, = you > need a proxy/relay solution where a peer can establish a point of > presence outside of the NAT/FW which is reachable over non-UDP, thus > assuming TCP as only alternative. >=20 > From my perspective the combination of F2 and F29 implicitly demands > the > support of a relay solution, and that it is unnecessary to add an > explicit requirement. This as the failure rate for incoming TCP > connections through any NAT is high irrespective of explicit blocking > of > incoming TCP or not. >=20 > > > > 2) New requirement to cover both browsers are behind the > firewall > > > > a. The browser must be able to send streams and data to a > peer > > in the presence of NATs and FWs that block UDP traffic and incoming > TCP > > connection in both browser side as well as in the peer side (TURN > only > > works) >=20 > I think this is unclear, as there are two aspects of this. The peers > are > either behind different FW or the same FW/NAT. If it is the second, I > think this will simply work the same way two client on an non > firewalled > network would work. At least ICE will find it. If it is the first, I > think that is implicitly included in F2. >=20 > Thus I question if there any utility in adding anything about this in > the use-case document. >=20 > WG, please contribute your views on this and if we need to make any > changes to the document in regards to this proposal. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ibc@aliax.net Sat Jan 18 15:51:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6232E1AD8E3 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:51:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.022 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNwSZiROj_mQ for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qe0-f47.google.com (mail-qe0-f47.google.com [209.85.128.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037511ADFD6 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qe0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 5so5353235qeb.34 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:51:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HKDbiIHIM57dkISLO98BJDnG2PHi03EaMxhIGeuV0+4=; b=fcHf0o2aI0ZXVO0SAp+/pDu9ZVIRaieIYSt4Eks9TWfnMGXi8q3G0ttwtUInbC0VDT CLCPUJEi2x/EjmNbXd89WYm6o7wYpp0t21JbsdyJbevIxCdeT9XFpKsipEUDQIdy6lOV 3v7zb88/YBubzbc1Dk21fZ3kVzOwi7wv+RcVVrQI2o4OpyHIx9dcQEiztWOcWvJ2XOwY tSuxU9RfJfaWdhWSiX6LEo2MdKyxlX0N5kNiDRNFw+y+uGhYtA6j3HO3+R6QnmxkPD8p ydgZnJACtULwXeHm3IAH0cvcUCdHlfJaQxYwGrKGUReKOpcozamjZncTKi0WyPMQHCIm J+IA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn3+gf53BrfT3oGlStqhrgc6p7sAOesl5NdVkAq2oTwrGy9UBIfr9FDnVKxVLssDV/D9nDn X-Received: by 10.224.68.70 with SMTP id u6mr15761121qai.5.1390089061758; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:51:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.82.97 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:50:41 -0800 (PST) From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 00:50:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 23:51:16 -0000 Hi, draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 has expired two days ago. Please let me know because may be I've missed something: if "Unified Plan SDP" the chosen way to go for WebRTC? (AFAIK no browser implements it yet). Thanks a lot. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Sun Jan 19 04:01:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48E1ADEA6 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LwAsCc3KLHHa for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347A31ADED7 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:01:05 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-b9-52dbbe7216ca Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8B.3C.23787.27EBBD25; 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Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TVPrkEMVib9G for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f47.google.com (mail-qa0-f47.google.com [209.85.216.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C351A1F5F for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id j5so4823664qaq.34 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:24:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LjztiMUe68HPFexMDktbc52PbQqUgMXwmwscMBdbNGk=; b=ciPEXDqKTs3IUNZ7COwOjwSk4LW9MfjjZczAh5lWMifDx+gBqc1LCBI4z+iUgQc7wo yyZBJQIvzgROATAxme45K8/e4PFBBDNCcVdnJOfS/zgSRj7QI+Jf4ZZkqbAwUC/aHDNe mktoW77MSV0xWrJumXLFYyyI3yrsK/tqFc2CREHP46XuiwFg5MrwOxIUt+FUaKkGDGcW ogqJJzLyeXhMtBU9h2OLd04aHW05S0CNoN28io+iE76SYSzQUdlmaGUaZm0xOSsRgAjX hU7BENqityQ2d1ibQdS0ifaN+UinP1RnVjKzacEPQBy5x7P+6rTlLXxjcLJofNOHjEDa Tgeg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmhZ6RAt/143kBMYZk9WSMUQQqsY/f+L+7g0MxRDL46n5cUxQuPdTPNYg389cqUJmin9pms X-Received: by 10.140.96.17 with SMTP id j17mr18953077qge.112.1390137850459; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:24:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:23:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 14:23:49 +0100 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 13:24:25 -0000 2014/1/19 Christer Holmberg : > My understanding is that the draft was never intended to progress. Once w= e > decide that the UP is the road to fame and glory, the different parts wou= ld > be defined in different drafts (in many cases also in different WGs). > > Having said that, maybe it would be a good idea to keep the draft alive > until we have actually finished the work above. And why no one browser or WebRTC device implements it yet? Do we understand the impact of changing from _whatever_sdp_browsers_are_using_today_ to Unified Plan? --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From ekr@rtfm.com Sun Jan 19 07:20:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1941ADDD2 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:20:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KA9ClH_Z6EI1 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f42.google.com (mail-wg0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DB61ADDD0 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id l18so3230457wgh.5 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dajowPl4MrZCyeAlCW8N2CUM6XLd2mOcaGkKopcwkgw=; b=SvNP5DjvlQKTQklpS1vN9kVdUR7jvLY+HmnA2dQEvqQIsedhIWpPx++CThlP8Otlw5 8myCc45qaVrwLpBryfPWPwvQCcuxzAux2lr4r46F62UcJi0P7MmMrl2qIR7QT9Cw/c7I 4wr6qBl/k1XdpTUsri8+LSy7HDn9dLusXB2dCkTn3uG/59zjL7NgFCOolqlwd1Cd9Zhb 0LcXxYR0a8UAdSC+fZHSLPswQ9AtBW21R4P5OxdNNdAj8oH4CGbwMCVZIpOuXuOWLiYg 44qwz6bCU8FPUQNIxZOX1br/CWN45iM6lmoP/waBM+kdoYQXMIJgqmqb8PhxS4cfdlPA WvtA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkVtNsk6fW11fkzeEq0Nio4+pqVkaHqEQ0DgEJ9lDRBDgBWaQ62ZBTn93FN4sr4pgnhI+1G X-Received: by 10.180.84.166 with SMTP id a6mr6309088wiz.49.1390144804621; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:20:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.9.67 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:19:24 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:19:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:20:19 -0000 On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:23 AM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote= : > 2014/1/19 Christer Holmberg : >> My understanding is that the draft was never intended to progress. Once = we >> decide that the UP is the road to fame and glory, the different parts wo= uld >> be defined in different drafts (in many cases also in different WGs). >> >> Having said that, maybe it would be a good idea to keep the draft alive >> until we have actually finished the work above. > > And why no one browser or WebRTC device implements it yet? I can't speak for Chrome, but Mozilla is actively working on it. Software takes time. -Ekr Do we > understand the impact of changing from > _whatever_sdp_browsers_are_using_today_ to Unified Plan? > > > > -- > I=F1aki Baz Castillo > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From fippo@goodadvice.pages.de Sun Jan 19 07:28:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38AB1ADE7C for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRDW9E5CaYXY for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lo.psyced.org (lost.IN.psyced.org [188.40.42.221]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9771AD8F3 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.101] (p5497197E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.151.25.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by lo.psyced.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s0JFRnwn016736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:27:50 +0100 Message-ID: <52DBEEF1.4090700@goodadvice.pages.de> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:27:45 +0100 From: Philipp Hancke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:28:07 -0000 thus spoke Eric Rescorla: > I can't speak for Chrome, but Mozilla is actively working on it. Chrome has a working implementation of "Plan B". It's working rather nicely, even though using it for conferencing convinced me that I prefer "no plan". In the end, I expect having to hide this under many layers of JS. From ibc@aliax.net Sun Jan 19 07:34:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2987C1ADF33 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id il8v8XdeaCyM for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qe0-f52.google.com (mail-qe0-f52.google.com [209.85.128.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B731ACCE5 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qe0-f52.google.com with SMTP id a11so3443882qen.11 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3nAjtPPXmaKJiLw+hI8Fcq1NdMe9pOhweHw/oIil29w=; b=eqQfFn/VihNkIt6b2G2a1hsf0M9CvnDtHMqfB2WaScO4nsCDeQjI5L824GP7zfJTyW XnpnFF6I7cISPfB93BQBJxAwKcxoSGfedm9lYn0PlIC/fQWACeWn8gOrYxioT3rUg8fk /etwK/qGAlBOYB+XQrk4Ihv8XJRg+/FbiLEBKTeye1NGbeDELKFQLHxahPChgsoaO+ow oN1VoAmlvBBEWpOUjdV9PA2UtAE3TaCgjP5qStS0GXDnvspprQdbJePztnJyUX7qc/Td 5Vgx6gAA90yr4uSW4GBQ6ziMhIdQZXM8Wv4jW3NL6f0muXWHOwOYgGZN7s9buSiWbhNb 0+FQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkBCzGoKafOg0YCFsevAjuf5CGsSV8F3Bak/HQwkn6iJLLANWNmLo9zzCzvEu+XaEq40jAv MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.222.194 with SMTP id ih2mr20799896qcb.16.1390145674090; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:34:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52DBEEF1.4090700@goodadvice.pages.de> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DBEEF1.4090700@goodadvice.pages.de> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:34:34 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= To: Philipp Hancke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11343aee17435004f0548356 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:34:49 -0000 --001a11343aee17435004f0548356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, you cannot hide it. With Unified Plan if your browser makes a SDP offer with one audio and one video track, and the server is a conference server with multiple audio and video tracks, then the server must reply you with a fake useless SDP answer with one audio and one video track and later perform a new SDP O/A by offering all the conference tracks. You cannot hide that horrible stuff with just JS. That is one of the most painful SDP consequences: the SDP answer MUST have the same number of m lines than the offer, and in Unified Plan that means the same number of tracks. -- I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo On Jan 19, 2014 4:27 PM, "Philipp Hancke" wrote= : > thus spoke Eric Rescorla: > >> I can't speak for Chrome, but Mozilla is actively working on it. >> > > Chrome has a working implementation of "Plan B". It's working rather > nicely, even though using it for conferencing convinced me that I prefer > "no plan". > > In the end, I expect having to hide this under many layers of JS. > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11343aee17435004f0548356 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    No, you cannot hide it. With Unified Plan if your browser ma= kes a SDP offer with one audio and one video track, and the server is a con= ference server with multiple audio and video tracks, then the server must r= eply you with a fake useless SDP answer with one audio and one video track = and later perform a new SDP O/A by offering all the conference tracks. You = cannot hide that horrible stuff with just JS.

    That is one of the most painful SDP consequences: the SDP an= swer MUST have the same number of m lines than the offer, and in Unified Pl= an that means the same number of tracks.

    --
    I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
    <ibc@aliax.net>

    On Jan 19, 2014 4:27 PM, "Philipp Hancke&qu= ot; <fippo@goodadvice.pages= .de> wrote:
    thus spoke Eric Rescorla:
    I can't speak for Chrome, but Mozilla is actively working on it.

    Chrome has a working implementation of "Plan B". It's working= rather nicely, even though using it for conferencing convinced me that I p= refer "no plan".

    In the end, I expect having to hide this under many layers of JS.
    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
    --001a11343aee17435004f0548356-- From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Sun Jan 19 20:24:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9616F1A0033 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:24:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QISRQYwblFnV for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24A11A0032 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:24:32 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-51-52dca4ff6b27 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F4.87.23787.FF4ACD25; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:24:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.114]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:24:31 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: =?utf-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired Thread-Index: AQHPFKgpqGn0rdJS60yb4Ymh81EsUZqL8uFRgAAGa4CAAQxq5g== Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:24:30 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954BA1A00C9 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 01:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.151 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pziy_H66-DSF for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 01:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556011A00C7 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 01:59:30 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-7f-52dcf381bee7 Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AB.B4.23787.183FCD25; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:59:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:59:29 +0100 Message-ID: <52DCF368.5020608@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:59:04 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , 'Christer Holmberg' , References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <000d01cecdb2$63c1ef90$2b45ceb0$@co.in> <52D6642A.7010809@ericsson.com> <006201cf1479$a4fe6ed0$eefb4c70$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <006201cf1479$a4fe6ed0$eefb4c70$@co.in> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7T5ztBBr+Wclls21BqcfNKL6PF 5E99rBZr/7WzO7B4tBx5y+qxZMlPJo8P87+we2zvecwSwBLFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlXHp6Aem gkuiFasnvGdtYFwr2MXIySEhYCLRNXEpE4QtJnHh3nq2LkYuDiGBQ4wSX86eYIFwljNKTLnX xApSxSugLbF17RSwDhYBVYnf6w+xgdhsAhYSN380gtmiAsESt6Y9YIeoF5Q4OfMJ2CARgTuM EleXvQNrFhYIk7i9ZDXUhi5Wib99x4ASHBycQDfN/yYPYkoIiEv0NAaBlDML6ElMudrCCGHL SzRvnc0MYgsB3dPQ1ME6gVFwFpJ1s5C0zELSsoCReRUje25iZk56ueEmRmDoHtzyW3cH46lz IocYpTlYlMR5P7x1DhISSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAyNG4S697tmBrDs91ZuNq oSZpf1H5Vz9dI5fOfDE3tfD0Mr/Y1a07jedsi5/DdS//pvRlTVbv1tDq9w/yr6ckVJTYXv0T K7Jsjd4Fz+LfxS++MrfpO3Xr1l6Jaw7LKHHktotXmPI0vfrMz+ad/LkG4ie3+jz84vLVdvak 1fdvfFI5+zhFtOeWEktxRqKhFnNRcSIA6s37KSsCAAA= Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 09:59:32 -0000 Hi Partha, On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > Hi Magnus, > > I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server in the > requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the requirement. Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this should be changed to use media relay. > > ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever browser > is not possible to transport the media in UDP. My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I believe you may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But ICE TCP per say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of ICE-TCP is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the ICE agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you still need a framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that carries the RTP or DTLS packets. TURN server is good in case > of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred approach for > browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is discussed in PNTAW as > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. So, I > preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this mail thread > which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias discussion. Please let > me know your opinion on the same. I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the use-case and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in the use-case and requirements draft: This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served as a tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. It is proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols and solutions developed by the WG. So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to solution focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have a number of solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to determine if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or not. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From andrew.hutton@unify.com Mon Jan 20 04:11:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842D71A012B for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U5MokjOq5nPQ for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx11.unify.com (mx11.unify.com [62.134.46.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08F01A0123 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.234]) by mx11.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id CB4C71EB84DA for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:11:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.183]) by MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.234]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:11:15 +0100 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHPFdOd2Vn6yFd4yUSx85JgARaXd5qNhV9A Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:11:15 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17CBE39F@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rtcweb] FW: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:11:32 -0000 Would like to notify the RTCWEB list of the update although comments I beli= eve still need to be made on the PNTAW list. I updated draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration. The main change is that the draft now explores the different options that a= re available for handling such things as HTTP Proxies in a WebRTC environme= nt and no longer recommends a specific solution.=20 Would be good to restart the discussion on these options and determining th= e best way forward to ensuring we get some defined standardized behavior fo= r WebRTC for these scenarios. So please go ahead and make comments on the PNTAW list please. Regards Andy -----Original Message----- From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of inte= rnet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: 20 January 2014 11:35 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : RTCWEB Considerations for NATs, Firewalls and HTT= P proxies Authors : Thomas Stach Andrew Hutton Justin Uberti Filename : draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2014-01-20 Abstract: This document describes mechanism to enable media stream establishment for Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (WebRTC) in the presence of network address translators, firewalls and HTTP proxies. HTTP proxy and firewall deployed in many private network domains introduce obstacles to the successful establishment of media stream via WebRTC. This document examines some of these deployment scenarios and specifies requirements on WebRTC enabled web browsers designed to provide the best possible chance of media connectivity between WebRTC peers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considera= tions/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-= 03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-conside= rations-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From ibc@aliax.net Mon Jan 20 05:48:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85FC1A0165 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VtxOD7r57g37 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f44.google.com (mail-qa0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB101A0162 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id w5so5578862qac.3 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8PxBJXmhLrbPMLvh2P4NJddYjSzN0Xe2M/46FeS5M+s=; b=Lxm1pLNaGY/s6hsSx5oWb1FPoCpOJYEUbXz7Lj2emLi3ZBk2VhqDSSA6NO5ULajNd7 sPKWACIwdQydkd2puu9iUgKDHanosi40op8lHst0D4biUDms1SgMlvilt3sYu3DJWSGP MKXYmUAM9QTVxE2MloPA2D7JXdN97RlTcB5ph5Ne1++hZtNNAd6E06juvF1KHVJuSuYc TyIvTWdD4JA5W3SSAPTgvXlDHBdm1Kn6QHuq+1UcvHdMa3YWntwR8mTT1VIJu0HrL4/x wowMCnGILn4+XeRI4bz49YbE8aaUi9T0blKeqjVSVWCKtcK0cJQpsQ+UwB0tyYXxHQlc +smA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmYc9fiAAhlJ4PYNG72OPN8bUry+yiCRIkzWeFuSz9vyUTcTZFC81EUCRl24KXCK3gHr+bo X-Received: by 10.224.72.11 with SMTP id k11mr27648332qaj.91.1390225690250; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:48:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:47:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:47:50 +0100 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:48:12 -0000 2014/1/20 Christer Holmberg : > I can=E2=80=99t comment on what people implement, but the specifications = of some UP > features, e.g. the partial offer/answer mechanism, are not ready, so they > can=E2=80=99t be implemented yet. What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match them". --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From andrew.hutton@unify.com Mon Jan 20 06:22:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22D81A0185 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:22:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zGEp9fKILAYf for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx11.unify.com (mx11.unify.com [62.134.46.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C6F1A0180 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.235]) by mx11.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id 7EFA11EB8536; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:22:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.183]) by MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.235]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:22:38 +0100 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: Magnus Westerlund , Parthasarathi R , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , 'Christer Holmberg' , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Thread-Index: Ac8R3WBp4rRhOOIaRB6ObpzdjfN4XQCmZGxAAFG7DgAACyWjMA== Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:22:37 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17CBE760@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <000d01cecdb2$63c1ef90$2b45ceb0$@co.in> <52D6642A.7010809@ericsson.com> <006201cf1479$a4fe6ed0$eefb4c70$@co.in> <52DCF368.5020608@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52DCF368.5020608@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:22:40 -0000 I also don't see a need to change the existing text as I believe the requir= ed use cases are covered even if the descriptions makes some assumptions ab= out the solutions. =20 It maybe that it is not the best requirements language but the assumptions = are reasonable and I don't see the need to change the text at this stage un= less we are missing an important requirement. Regards Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > Sent: 20 January 2014 09:59 > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; Hutton, Andrew; 'Christer > Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Partha, >=20 >=20 > On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > Hi Magnus, > > > > I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server in > the > > requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the requirement. >=20 > Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this should > be > changed to use media relay. >=20 > > > > ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever > browser > > is not possible to transport the media in UDP. >=20 > My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I believe > you may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But > ICE > TCP per say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part > of ICE-TCP is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between > the ICE agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you > still need a framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the > datagrams that carries the RTP or DTLS packets. >=20 > TURN server is good in case > > of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred approach > for > > browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is discussed in > PNTAW as > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. So, > I > > preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this mail > thread > > which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias discussion. > Please let > > me know your opinion on the same. >=20 > I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the > use-case and requirements draft. I would like to note the following > text > in the use-case and requirements draft: >=20 > This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with > rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served as a > tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. It > is > proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols and > solutions developed by the WG. >=20 > So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to > solution focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we > have a number of solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. >=20 > So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to > determine if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document > or not. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ekr@rtfm.com Mon Jan 20 06:28:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C40A1A0138 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:28:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpQ-_Q3_M5Hp for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f50.google.com (mail-vb0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A131A0136 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id w8so2909450vbj.9 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U7qC7g+Li0a7b3vJV+zRZOw47zzpa0iEWBKcsz8cC7A=; b=FKWIm4Mg/TLxoacm3lAXUiRFhU4JT2eqL3j4OihkZJcRc59eG/WCq0r7qxE11nMOtM 4zeKrcVC8O5ISs2VnWOeGnUvGjV5ajPijxslNwbxqMbm8ez3IdlvbMruC8rDYt53VN7j hhjq1hzDCucQxX/A/XyPBZ7E0Eb6CeTPptq98yC2+T5vWJ1l33i1RaWLiTXzmB636PGq xkY93q9hxVxylHmbmq52JU8HbcaXNx68IqZG5W5PxkebjZU1On7Ai2H+QKuzepYgyUp+ VkulotKVnoefPFAdQ8VAUJQJs9ov8KDQcFaANx37ImNn6YD3z6Zojho/uLpec/hIymNU CC5A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJE1bC/gKjiSyokLl1PInncnlwlu9sQy0p6wg+wSAcRce2JXJkkKhYKN98RiO3g+fDDqoF X-Received: by 10.52.165.210 with SMTP id za18mr9165552vdb.20.1390228080098; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:28:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.106.162 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:27:19 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:28:01 -0000 On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 5:47 AM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote= : > 2014/1/20 Christer Holmberg : >> I can=92t comment on what people implement, but the specifications of so= me UP >> features, e.g. the partial offer/answer mechanism, are not ready, so the= y >> can=92t be implemented yet. > > What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer > MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match > them". I don't see that happening. However, if it were to happen it would happen on the mmusic list. -Ekr > > -- > I=F1aki Baz Castillo > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ibc@aliax.net Mon Jan 20 06:53:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CB41A019B for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVCjxZvsDX6u for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-f173.google.com (mail-qc0-f173.google.com [209.85.216.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3136E1A0199 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id i8so5995051qcq.18 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IZGzO4yTcTjuHBWHB2cWYG2UxNmIaQiF4yAneuKHv+M=; b=FGgq65j8xMa9eOIsbaIc3GuRG5wpFFFP3UIoi3wSAn2S53/hB8+9IG2OUNybv8Dk+k 5Ajqx+sIBP48g7HV2eZa+Wc8f9pydBl512d+RONg+VGW3g/3QOApgwp7/e9xa1u8eUq1 lUHK+mctjY3tb6nt/8zGX4EcCpqPZDvfOPbtlqk01EClcmGZRblhXiLq2VG62u+6P1Ec +mmlZtg7FlfIcMWJY0mxZ52VBa51IcMJQaUQqeisRm2GMXLbI4ySiov8hnLmVNB9q7MO +PvbN9wkk4Fa7qWzrplbVXWI7ohD8f5ofB2ve77fQ1fDKmMoX8ZQdn5CyLl5L4tnWWVM 4gxw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkP/6LJn0xZwCMadcgsnEA02qmiwW49Ej6chh5RVmqtXrksVCOgolBctnA5CqlYHWBBr8JT X-Received: by 10.140.88.112 with SMTP id s103mr27200280qgd.47.1390229639219; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:53:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:53:39 +0100 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:54:00 -0000 2014/1/20 Eric Rescorla : >> What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer >> MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match >> them". > > I don't see that happening. In Unified Plan each m line has a diferent (and unique) SSRC identifier. That is all we need to match m lines of the offer and the answer. > However, if it were to happen it would happen on the mmusic list. Right. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From harald@alvestrand.no Mon Jan 20 07:52:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5621A01B1 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5wZHkDsIpf1 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4F81A01A9 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FA039E0D9 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:52:30 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SUhpCNCxMCBo for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:52:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B160139E09E for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:52:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DD4634.6090904@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:52:20 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:52:25 -0000 I believe that the components of -unified-plan are mainly addressed as: - POF/PAN are going to MMUSIC - BUNDLE is going to MMUSIC - The one-track-per-M-line is going to be in -rtcweb-jsep (section 5.2.1 of -05, in particular) But a) this is just what I think; the chairs have the task of making decisions, and b) I don't have a complete picture of whether there are pieces of -unified-plan not covered by the above. On 01/20/2014 03:53 PM, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > 2014/1/20 Eric Rescorla : >>> What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer >>> MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match >>> them". >> I don't see that happening. > In Unified Plan each m line has a diferent (and unique) SSRC > identifier. That is all we need to match m lines of the offer and the > answer. > > >> However, if it were to happen it would happen on the mmusic list. > Right. > > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Mon Jan 20 11:27:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1B01A025F for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhW-hH6GvMMF for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe14:43:76:96:62:80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338E41A022E for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id GEQ91n0011YDfWL58KT6nE; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:27:06 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.164]) by omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id GKT51n00h3ZTu2S3gKT6Hp; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:27:06 +0000 Message-ID: <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:27:05 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1390246026; bh=F/CIwVQn2qRf7MTTM8PFPyp7cahI7BzMAKW9Z4ODYIw=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=cuWOll4a2pwHxxfLYERDD2B9lgtwGjR4qbJaVHPEKSC40KZzeh0NkelLTtE6M+8b4 vB+apfMiV7iz6rdPIyBdCI9nZ9ea8hcLz+CZBBV0Xu7Z/N9hKYlTq1d9YK2Zv3qJR+ GX4csDSs/ofFMeNOE7XWKjLzEoJjocXZMjZaj8PpLwujx5OB29h5INsDVEX4BcyWZW YE5o9c6rDmF9SUaRBcUGiodUx8R0gq/Zsn9TmtWBsmYwpffTjFgFxBp1OgLDLIIH1O 4esHtHn9/x40YFF6wvKnBOZ+IGxEQaSmlvwF6SBtu5qAN6e6JGbHakzQDM3L4B2h8v trMi0XfMPs3Ig== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:27:07 -0000 On 1/20/14 8:47 AM, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > 2014/1/20 Christer Holmberg : >> I can’t comment on what people implement, but the specifications of some UP >> features, e.g. the partial offer/answer mechanism, are not ready, so they >> can’t be implemented yet. > > What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer > MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match > them". What is it that troubles you about this. I guess from prior comment that you want to add more m-lines in the answer? But O/A is a negotiation/handshake. If you include extra m-lines in the answer then there is no completion to the negotiation of those. Thanks, Paul From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Mon Jan 20 16:34:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C83B1A01E1 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJMCbt5na34q for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309F41A027C for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f2b8e0000073bf-a5-52ddc08fed33 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FD.4A.29631.F80CDD25; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:34:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.114]) by ESESSHC006.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:34:23 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Eric Rescorla , =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired Thread-Index: AQHPFeZCiWMwUmpwA0y/R3pu0afwCZqNmuKAgAC6QkA= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:34:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10FCF7@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: fi-FI X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7/gbtBBrPbbSxWvD7HbjF9n43F 2n/t7A7MHuca3rN7LFnyk8lj8uM25gDmKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6MS3c3MxdsZ66YMP8QSwPj NaYuRg4OCQETiY/Xy7oYOYFMMYkL99azdTFycQgJnGCU+PH5PDtIQkhgCaPEnPshIPVsAhYS 3f+0QUwRgUiJSQvDQCqYBdQl7iw+B1YtLOAgMWnjR1YQW0TAUeJ162V2CNtKYv7cB8wgNouA qsT2uX+ZQcbwCvhKrDmSCrF1LbPEpn/TmUBqOAUCJbY+ugU2hxHotO+n1jBB7BKX+HDwOjPE yQISS/ach7JFJV4+/scKYStJNC55wgpRrydxY+oUNghbW2LZwtdg9bwCghInZz5hmcAoNgvJ 2FlIWmYhaZmFpGUBI8sqRsni1OLi3HQjA73c9NwSvdSizOTi4vw8veLUTYzAmDq45bfRDsaT e+wPMUpzsCiJ815nrQkSEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2KLyrNSS0+xMjEwSnVwFikkHr+yk2HbU839V87 +nblr4xkjtNLLh3/f6xK3MV07zezVHOVyb+ZZnLl8Mlwim3u2vT16eOogkOhyc7/n329rPuo KeTLC4km40NBc399rkpe76Zo/F3oVsi9144/BGbmuSo8U/lkWz7vP+fdqldOV3bXvuPSqovc cclH7VGt+aJTVQXisziVWIozEg21mIuKEwFcHDe7dwIAAA== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:34:26 -0000 >>> I can't comment on what people implement, but the specifications of=20 >>> some UP features, e.g. the partial offer/answer mechanism, are not=20 >>> ready, so they can't be implemented yet. >> >> What we need, at least, is to drop the absurd rule of SDP "the answer=20 >> MUST have the same number of m lines as the offer in order to match=20 >> them". > > I don't see that happening. Me neither. Regards, Christer From internet-drafts@ietf.org Tue Jan 21 00:56:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B1D1A006C; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:56:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P3GbhaxpPEt8; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E0D1A006B; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:56:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.90.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140121085655.3529.32888.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:56:55 -0800 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:56:57 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W= orking Group of the IETF. Title : Security Considerations for WebRTC Author : Eric Rescorla Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2014-01-21 Abstract: The Real-Time Communications on the Web (RTCWEB) working group is tasked with standardizing protocols for real-time communications between Web browsers, generally called "WebRTC". The major use cases for WebRTC technology are real-time audio and/or video calls, Web conferencing, and direct data transfer. Unlike most conventional real-time systems (e.g., SIP-based soft phones) WebRTC communications are directly controlled by a Web server, which poses new security challenges. For instance, a Web browser might expose a JavaScript API which allows a server to place a video call. Unrestricted access to such an API would allow any site which a user visited to "bug" a user's computer, capturing any activity which passed in front of their camera. This document defines the WebRTC threat model and analyzes the security threats of WebRTC in that model. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From tireddy@cisco.com Tue Jan 21 01:18:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B921E1A02C7 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:18:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pjj018GpLCyV for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7405B1A00A5 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:18:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3626; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390295892; x=1391505492; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=6bAxhNlWs5If2DkYrP3R/eDvb9ON89BWqhDDomKL6YU=; b=Ty6rBG48KLrYrx25a3z2+UNkcL1lVc/eJo01jaaUlWUBUZ3w7oXAMamX o/GIvywkdOlud1AAbanzyWBdxyeXbuHrVMjSDAd8Cc/sbAESvzJj7eAYC o1nGSLFSmnrw6/ViAHDGpjtw4H+m7uYl11SUG/7Pom0S/ZbEaz6RP3D1c U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhAFAE063lKtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABZgws4VrsNT4EPFnSCJQEBAQMBAQEBCVsHBhECBAEIEQQBAQEKHSIMCxQJCQEEARIIARKHYggNw3cXBI4qAQEeMwuDHoEUBIkPkEWQZoMtgXE5 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,695,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="14305739" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jan 2014 09:18:12 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0L9ICNV020391 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:18:12 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.227]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 03:18:11 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Magnus Westerlund , Parthasarathi R , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Thread-Index: Ac8WibJ5fX0vYar0RiW+sWrLkC2s3g== Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:18:10 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.58.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:18:14 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > Westerlund > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer Holmber= g'; > rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Partha, >=20 >=20 > On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > Hi Magnus, > > > > I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server in > > the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the > requirement. >=20 > Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this should be > changed to use media relay. >=20 > > > > ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever > > browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. >=20 > My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I believe y= ou > may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But ICE TCP = per > say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of ICE-TC= P > is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the ICE > agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you still need= a > framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that carrie= s > the RTP or DTLS packets. >=20 > TURN server is good in case > > of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred approach > > for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is discussed in > > PNTAW as > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. So, > > I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this mail > > thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias discussion. > Please let me know your opinion on the same. >=20 > I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the use-c= ase > and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in the us= e-case > and requirements draft: >=20 > This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with > rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served as a > tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. It is > proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols and > solutions developed by the WG. >=20 > So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to solution > focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have a numb= er of > solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for example by usi= ng PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp-00#section-3.1)= =20 -Tiru. >=20 > So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to deter= mine > if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or not. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From sdhesika@cisco.com Tue Jan 21 09:57:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF771A03ED; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:57:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOpFrxU-79pV; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9381A0365; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:57:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4046; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390327034; x=1391536634; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=qns5iZMICHa5Mcu9oup9RqvJ7sWo57mwu504/W344Q8=; b=BvJ6F8FVQYHBaFtV0PewIZoipstDkdrOtSGWeVTBYWX0/kMjovqhGQEq ZHRiiHIu94MtTTMc5e/hu55tAsTSGQO2Cai55M1jFSLM+no88ogm9HAVQ B0IW6J1zVllICd/QV2unjMLMT8OAO2H95Mvo4pfcskfwCt5G1RAvUFl5w M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhYFAGu03lKtJV2d/2dsb2JhbABZDoJ9OFa7bYEUFnSCJQEBAQMBOjgMBwQCAQgRBAEBCxQJBzIUCQgCBAESCAELh2kIDcNBF45OOAaDHoEUBKo6gm4/gio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,696,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="298722254" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jan 2014 17:57:10 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com [173.36.12.82]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0LHv9nv004216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 17:57:09 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.18]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:57:09 -0600 From: "Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)" To: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Thread-Index: AQHO+8aJErlBSAcWG0ODmxKj8FJpKppaNXsAgAGQV8CAM+aC8A== Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 17:57:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52AF0E7B.6030400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.24.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 17:57:16 -0000 A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with the edits s= uggested below. The edits are: - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network edge - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP classes. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04.txt Regards, Subha -----Original Message----- From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha Dhesikan (sd= hesika) Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry. Inline as SD: -----Original Message----- From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of gorry@erg.abdn.ac.= uk Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat): > Hi Gorry, > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input: > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now focused on IP=20 > DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate that the 3GPP=20 > QCI related discussion has been removed. > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set of DSCPs=20 > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The introduction=20 > seems to say, it is largely considered to be applied within LANs, for=20 > home gateway internal classification and for Wifi. That's fine with me. > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband access=20 > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings make sense. > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not to trust=20 > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn't mention=20 > that. Adding such a note may be useful. > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this context SD: Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trust of client = devices and the effect on DSCP marking.=20 In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the authorizati= on mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some off-path authorizatio= n of DSCP for particular flows. > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to mark traffic=20 > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSCPs only,=20 > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors, that a=20 > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more fine=20 > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all home network=20 > devices apply proper markings as suggested by the authors, this may help. > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app require a = way for the app or transport to know which work appropriately along that pa= th. Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PHB grou= ps. The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs is worth = I think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. when the App sets= EF or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - intended precedence would= then rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. If this were not appropria= te, then the loss will depend upon whether it was before or after the DSCPs= were interpreted as intended. SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the DSCPs defi= ned in this document can be treated in a network that has only 2-4 PHBs. > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a discussion on=20 > a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd be happy to help. > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd expect this=20 > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time. SD: I will also participate as needed.=20 Regards, Subha > > Regards and seasonal greetings, > > Ruediger > > > Gorry From sdhesika@cisco.com Tue Jan 21 19:18:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F43D1A01A8; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:18:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13ElExkFs9D7; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28891A018E; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:18:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6266; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390360717; x=1391570317; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=iFZsPElQ2X+pNhlRh5R7R890WaELiZiyPJcZdLZG1IA=; b=MQJEwLDESPtS8rE2nr2BdQykunGpcU8RDJ+YZrk2xpiXUmEFnOGQEKKB IdyGANRsicnfGLyXxVDz6YEfgXLI1oI20BbRNH4ytdhatZ+Y21MZNKhwN iOf12ai95B8nBZG9ZiLHKGbd7Ew5NsVKxjfmum5JZA//fjSeLY5bGyj25 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgwFAFA331KtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABaDoJ9OFa7b4ESFnSCJQEBAQQ6OBMEAgEIEQQBAQsUCQcyFAkIAgQBEggBC4dxDcJRF45OBjIGgx6BFASqOoJuP4Iq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,697,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="14529542" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jan 2014 03:18:37 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com [173.36.12.88]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0M3IahN029810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:18:36 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.18]) by xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com ([173.36.12.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:18:36 -0600 From: "Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)" To: "Black, David" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Thread-Index: AQHO+8aJErlBSAcWG0ODmxKj8FJpKppaNXsAgAGQV8CAM+aC8IAACWcggACSujA= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:18:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52AF0E7B.6030400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047C18@MX15A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047C18@MX15A.corp.emc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.24.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:18:40 -0000 David, Please help me understand: Are you suggesting that the whole text should be= removed or reworded to remove guidance and merely say that the DSCP values= may have to be combined based on network policies where application classe= s are fewer. =20 Regards, Subha -----Original Message----- From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:59 AM To: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika); gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.= de; tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org Cc: Black, David Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP classes= . That guidance would be (or would start with): If a packet enters a QoS domain that has no support for the above defined Data Types/Application classes, then the network node at the edge SHOULD map the DSCP value to one used by supported classes. Here are a couple of examples: o If a QoS domain supports only one video class, then the packets from the two video classes SHOULD be remarked to use the same DSCP, either AF4 or AF3 whichever is supported. o If a QoS domain supports a single class for all voice and video traffic, then the packets from all the video and voice classes SHOULD be combined and remarked to the single supported DSCP. This draft may not be a good place for that - there are concerns well beyon= d rtcweb that drive these decisions by network architects/operators. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha=20 > Dhesikan > (sdhesika) > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:57 PM > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; tsvwg@ietf.org;=20 > rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with the=20 > edits suggested below. The edits are: > - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network edge > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP classes= . >=20 > =20 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04 > .txt >=20 > Regards, > Subha >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha=20 > Dhesikan > (sdhesika) > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry. >=20 > Inline as SD: >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM > To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat): >=20 > > Hi Gorry, > > > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input: > > > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now focused on=20 > > IP DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate that the=20 > > 3GPP QCI related discussion has been removed. > > > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set of DSCPs=20 > > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The=20 > > introduction seems to say, it is largely considered to be applied=20 > > within LANs, for home gateway internal classification and for Wifi. Tha= t's fine with me. > > > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband access=20 > > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings make sense. > > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not to trust=20 > > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn't=20 > > mention that. Adding such a note may be useful. > > > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this context >=20 > SD: Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trust of=20 > client devices and the effect on DSCP marking. >=20 > In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the=20 > authorization mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some=20 > off-path authorization of DSCP for particular flows. >=20 > > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to mark traffic=20 > > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSCPs only,=20 > > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors, that a=20 > > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more fine=20 > > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all home=20 > > network devices apply proper markings as suggested by the authors, this= may help. > > >=20 > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app=20 > require a way for the app or transport to know which work appropriately a= long that path. > Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PHB groups= . >=20 > The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs is=20 > worth I think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. when=20 > the App sets EF or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - intended=20 > precedence would then rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. If=20 > this were not appropriate, then the loss will depend upon whether it=20 > was before or after the DSCPs were interpreted as intended. >=20 > SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the DSCPs=20 > defined in this document can be treated in a network that has only 2-4 PH= Bs. >=20 > > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a discussion=20 > > on a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd be happy to hel= p. > > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd expect this=20 > > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time. > SD: I will also participate as needed. >=20 > Regards, > Subha > > > > Regards and seasonal greetings, > > > > Ruediger > > > > > > > Gorry >=20 From david.black@emc.com Tue Jan 21 10:59:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633961A01AB; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:59:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PBMdOg3XkQO; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com (mailuogwdur.emc.com [128.221.224.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D602F1A0190; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.160]) by mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id s0LIxRsQ031760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:59:28 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com s0LIxRsQ031760 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1390330768; bh=SQ7w+m1bWcUNpddR9y1W5fpymxQ=; h=From:To:CC:Date:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=BBDXBodt0mKRiFZkH990TiP4NWxGuJ1OpFSurCiC71fGPi7c2B9+s7+Z8w2kTFWUm zxaqXH3Rp+L+PVlghMJU2GbLOJ+4gOeSFaNQDWrnnmEnzRoxzgfCxjV3KtQiI2Z7gV cpr4lmA7Y1dfERPvqbk9Q7ssx1LLp8AIr0lRATk8= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com s0LIxRsQ031760 Received: from mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.21]) by maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:59:15 -0500 Received: from mxhub07.corp.emc.com (mxhub07.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.204]) by mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id s0LIxEfO011816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:59:14 -0500 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.107]) by mxhub07.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.204]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:58:31 -0500 From: "Black, David" To: "Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:59:12 -0500 Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Thread-Index: AQHO+8aJErlBSAcWG0ODmxKj8FJpKppaNXsAgAGQV8CAM+aC8IAACWcg Message-ID: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047C18@MX15A.corp.emc.com> References: <52AF0E7B.6030400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: DLM_1, public X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:50:41 -0800 Cc: "Black, David" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:59:42 -0000 > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP classes= . That guidance would be (or would start with): If a packet enters a QoS domain that has no support for the above defined Data Types/Application classes, then the network node at the edge SHOULD map the DSCP value to one used by supported classes. Here are a couple of examples: o If a QoS domain supports only one video class, then the packets from the two video classes SHOULD be remarked to use the same DSCP, either AF4 or AF3 whichever is supported. o If a QoS domain supports a single class for all voice and video traffic, then the packets from all the video and voice classes SHOULD be combined and remarked to the single supported DSCP. This draft may not be a good place for that - there are concerns well beyon= d rtcweb that drive these decisions by network architects/operators. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha Dhesikan > (sdhesika) > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:57 PM > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; tsvwg@ietf.org; > rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with the edits > suggested below. The edits are: > - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network edge > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP classes= . >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04.t= xt >=20 > Regards, > Subha >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha Dhesikan > (sdhesika) > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry. >=20 > Inline as SD: >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of gorry@erg.abdn.a= c.uk > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM > To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat): >=20 > > Hi Gorry, > > > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input: > > > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now focused on IP > > DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate that the 3GPP > > QCI related discussion has been removed. > > > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set of DSCPs > > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The introduction > > seems to say, it is largely considered to be applied within LANs, for > > home gateway internal classification and for Wifi. That's fine with me. > > > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband access > > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings make sense. > > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not to trust > > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn't mention > > that. Adding such a note may be useful. > > > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this context >=20 > SD: Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trust of clien= t > devices and the effect on DSCP marking. >=20 > In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the authoriza= tion > mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some off-path authorization= of > DSCP for particular flows. >=20 > > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to mark traffic > > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSCPs only, > > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors, that a > > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more fine > > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all home network > > devices apply proper markings as suggested by the authors, this may hel= p. > > >=20 > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app require = a way > for the app or transport to know which work appropriately along that path= . > Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PHB groups= . >=20 > The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs is wort= h I > think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. when the App sets= EF > or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - intended precedence would t= hen > rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. If this were not appropriate, = then > the loss will depend upon whether it was before or after the DSCPs were > interpreted as intended. >=20 > SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the DSCPs de= fined > in this document can be treated in a network that has only 2-4 PHBs. >=20 > > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a discussion on > > a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd be happy to help. > > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd expect this > > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time. > SD: I will also participate as needed. >=20 > Regards, > Subha > > > > Regards and seasonal greetings, > > > > Ruediger > > > > > > > Gorry >=20 From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 22 02:31:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113801A02C0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VUY2-eC7g_Rb for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227671A01EB for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4023039E962 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:32:01 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6r+91eHWHzWH for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:31:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0BFC39E04C for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:31:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DF9E17.9030600@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:31:51 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030308050208090608060503" Subject: [rtcweb] Use of STUN 300 Alternate Server in Transport X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:31:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030308050208090608060503 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070402050407010804080504" --------------070402050407010804080504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following a brief discussion on the PNTAW list, I'm inserting into my updated Transports draft the following paragraph: The ALTERNATE-SERVER mechanism specified in RFC 5389 section 11 (300 Try Alternate) MUST be supported. Comments welcome if anyone thinks we should say anything else! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [pntaw] FW: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:37:10 -0800 From: Oleg Moskalenko To: Hutton, Andrew CC: pntaw@ietf.org I have a comment on section 5 of the document. One thing that I'd definitely like to see enforced in the browser's implementation of the TURN client protocol is the support of 300 Alternate Server error message. This is becoming an issue because of the possible volume of the WebRTC media traffic. If the browsers are supporting the error 300, then a TURN server administrator can relatively easy set a load balancing scheme. If the browsers do not support it, then it becomes a more complicated issue and an implementation-dependent procedure. As far as I know, no current browser supports 300 response from TURN server. It would be very nice if the TURN server administrator could rely on that feature. Oleg On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Hutton, Andrew > wrote: I updated draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration. The main change is that the draft now explores the different options that are available for handling such things as HTTP Proxies in a WebRTC environment and no longer recommends a specific solution. Would be good to restart the discussion on these options and determining the best way forward to ensuring we get some defined standardized behavior for WebRTC for these scenarios. So please go ahead and make comments. Regards Andy -----Original Message----- From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: 20 January 2014 11:35 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : RTCWEB Considerations for NATs, Firewalls and HTTP proxies Authors : Thomas Stach Andrew Hutton Justin Uberti Filename : draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2014-01-20 Abstract: This document describes mechanism to enable media stream establishment for Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (WebRTC) in the presence of network address translators, firewalls and HTTP proxies. HTTP proxy and firewall deployed in many private network domains introduce obstacles to the successful establishment of media stream via WebRTC. This document examines some of these deployment scenarios and specifies requirements on WebRTC enabled web browsers designed to provide the best possible chance of media connectivity between WebRTC peers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org . Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt _______________________________________________ pntaw mailing list pntaw@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw --------------070402050407010804080504 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following a brief discussion on the PNTAW list, I'm inserting into my updated Transports draft the following paragraph:

    The ALTERNATE-SERVER mechanism specified in RFC 5389 section 11 (300 Try Alternate) MUST be supported.

    Comments welcome if anyone thinks we should say anything else!


    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject: Re: [pntaw] FW: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt
    Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:37:10 -0800
    From: Oleg Moskalenko <mom040267@gmail.com>
    To: Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@unify.com>
    CC: pntaw@ietf.org <pntaw@ietf.org>


    I have a comment on section 5 of the document.

    One thing that I'd definitely like to see enforced in the browser's implementation of the TURN client protocol is the support of 300 Alternate Server error message. This is becoming an issue because of the possible volume of the WebRTC media traffic. If the browsers are supporting the error 300, then a TURN server administrator can relatively easy set a load balancing scheme. If the browsers do not support it, then it becomes a more complicated issue and an implementation-dependent procedure.

    As far as I know, no current browser supports 300 response from TURN server. It would be very nice if the TURN server administrator could rely on that feature.

    Oleg


    On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@unify.com> wrote:
    I updated draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-consideration.

    The main change is that the draft now explores the different options that are available for handling such things as HTTP Proxies in a WebRTC environment and no longer recommends a specific solution.

    Would be good to restart the discussion on these options and determining the best way forward to ensuring we get some defined standardized behavior for WebRTC for these scenarios.

    So please go ahead and make comments.

    Regards
    Andy



    -----Original Message-----
    From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
    Sent: 20 January 2014 11:35
    To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
    Subject: I-D Action: draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt


    A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


            Title           : RTCWEB Considerations for NATs, Firewalls and HTTP proxies
            Authors         : Thomas Stach
                              Andrew Hutton
                              Justin Uberti
            Filename        : draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt
            Pages           : 14
            Date            : 2014-01-20

    Abstract:
       This document describes mechanism to enable media stream
       establishment for Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers (WebRTC) in
       the presence of network address translators, firewalls and HTTP
       proxies.  HTTP proxy and firewall deployed in many private network
       domains introduce obstacles to the successful establishment of media
       stream via WebRTC.  This document examines some of these deployment
       scenarios and specifies requirements on WebRTC enabled web browsers
       designed to provide the best possible chance of media connectivity
       between WebRTC peers.


    The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations/

    There's also a htmlized version available at:
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03

    A diff from the previous version is available at:
    http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03


    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
    ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

    _______________________________________________
    I-D-Announce mailing list
    I-D-Announce@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
    Internet-Draft     directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
    or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
    _______________________________________________
    pntaw mailing list
    pntaw@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw



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Ah8IAMq431KtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABagkdEOFaCfrANiANPGHkWdIIlAQEBBAEBASAKPwIIAwwEAgEIEQQBAQEKDg8DAgICJQsUCQgCBAENBQiHfQ2lQ5wzF45LFhcEBgEGEoJXNYEUBJlUkGaDLYIq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,699,1384300800"; d="scan'208,217";a="14643830" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jan 2014 12:29:32 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com [173.37.183.84]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0MCTW32020473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:29:32 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.227]) by xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([173.37.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:29:31 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Martin Thomson , "Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Consent alternative Thread-Index: AQHO56wGEYDU0CLaikeWZIGB3nhRMZo8pkCAgAVPGgCAAGCagIAAEwEAgE6hYfA= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:29:30 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> References: <52989933.6000907@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.39.67.100] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3xmbrcdx10ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:29:37 -0000 --_000_913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3xmbrcdx10ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdGhlcmUgYXJlIHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnQgYXR0YWNrcyB0 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IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdDxicj4NCiZndDsgfDxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpydGN3ZWJAaWV0Zi5vcmci PnJ0Y3dlYkBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQomZ3Q7IHw8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3J0Y3dlYiI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9ydGN3ZWI8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9i b2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3xmbrcdx10ciscoc_-- From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 22 06:01:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF691A00B6 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:01:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0AZ0aynQ10I for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A61F1A00B2 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8015239E989 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:01:27 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V20zJI7cKwML for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:01:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55B8139E070 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:01:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFCF2D.4000707@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:01:17 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52989933.6000907@ericsson.com> <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030506000202030409060404" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:01:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030506000202030409060404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/22/2014 01:29 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > > Based on the discussion there are two different attacks to consider: > > a)The attack mentioned by Magnus which is an on-path attack. This > attacker can do lot more damage like dropping packets, modifying > packets etc. so we may have lot more problems independent of whether > STUN or DTLS consent is used. Further in this case since attacker > controls the RTCWEB signaling there seems to be no defense. > > b)Off-path attack that Martin had mentioned where B is only capable of > spoofing IP address of C. This threat can be mitigated by sending DTLS > heartbeat with sufficient entropy that guessing would be difficult for > an off-path attacker. This off-path attack can also be solved by > sending STUN consent whenever the IP address of the remote peer > changes and STUN provides strong entropy by using random Transaction > ID (96-bit). > > If we consider B attacker is also capable of sniffing packets on wire, > DTLS heartbeat does not have any benefit over STUN consent because B > can sniff the DTLS heartbeat request sent by A and generate response. > Since B seems be part of signaling exchange it will have access to > fingerprint, short-term username/password etc. > Assuming the signalling is encrypted (HTTPS), and B can only sniff packets, not be a MITM on the signalling, how does B know the fingerprint and short-term username/password? --------------030506000202030409060404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 01/22/2014 01:29 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote:

    Based on the discussion there are two different attacks to consider:

     

    a)The attack mentioned by Magnus which is an on-path attack. This attacker can do lot more damage like dropping packets, modifying packets etc. so we may have lot more problems independent of whether STUN or DTLS consent is used. Further in this case since attacker controls the RTCWEB signaling there seems to be no defense.

     

    b)Off-path attack that Martin had mentioned where B is only capable of spoofing IP address of C. This threat can be mitigated by sending DTLS heartbeat with sufficient entropy that guessing would be difficult for an off-path attacker. This off-path attack can also be solved by sending STUN consent whenever the IP address of the remote peer changes and STUN provides strong entropy by using random Transaction ID (96-bit).

     

    If we consider B attacker is also capable of sniffing packets on wire, DTLS heartbeat does not have any benefit over STUN consent because B can sniff the DTLS heartbeat request sent by A and generate response. Since B seems be part of signaling exchange it will have access to fingerprint, short-term username/password etc.

    Assuming the signalling is encrypted (HTTPS), and B can only sniff packets, not be a MITM on the signalling, how does B know the fingerprint and short-term username/password?

    --------------030506000202030409060404-- From ibc@aliax.net Wed Jan 22 06:35:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3FB1A0236 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GlKiwHP3dQuh for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f51.google.com (mail-qa0-f51.google.com [209.85.216.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608BE1A00EC for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f11so489823qae.38 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TVTW6jZbIq76hTAfS8gw42s3nYsXEgwZTiLlvszuKQc=; b=FZ1hrkwFIA5dEpRp6r9fpBiK2maom/hEsUCV/p1jzbBXvdvoYuAqEaG2lcBJ9voq2f IH1TfFIhG/xu9xQyc53nD7a26/WZPgykgNCE3Ziqh9BCAf9Lsshdxlt6i8XchZZ7utHJ w0c9XIolX991jg1/FeUb3SJL6IrMxgJU4hB+X8ELof07K/zKpr6CjP0QItZtIdg+iIjB PaWUkDMmvM3VNn+BdFL2xUAwZbp7ZIO3GYiYZtKHjdPmxEs/qpu207hdkY5tzVg9PPm5 Wkt3qu9RGLm4ZWBgz07zP5Kl0biovj/xvX7h52jvUvQAgPvvxxUO65FVPWe22vrlF+pM lGhA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnkIEsRGKBsZAUumFuweKiCwNYf8TgMBSNWcUhU43zQCG7zN2p34cJuJXDPGtWhsLAaYwqm X-Received: by 10.140.88.112 with SMTP id s103mr2634677qgd.47.1390401305553; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:35:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:34:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:34:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:35:08 -0000 2014/1/20 Paul Kyzivat : > What is it that troubles you about this. > > I guess from prior comment that you want to add more m-lines in the answe= r? > > But O/A is a negotiation/handshake. If you include extra m-lines in the > answer then there is no completion to the negotiation of those. Having two endpoints establshing a media session, the only they need is: - To decide a transport or transports for sending media one to each other. - To tell one to each other what it is sending. SDP is good (enough) in classic and simple communications in which both endpoints send and receive something similar (i.e. one single audio track in both directions). But nowadays we want that endpoint-A can send just one audio track and one video track and receive 8 audio tracks and 8 video tracks from endpoint-B. If endpoint-A makes the SDP offer, it "should" include 16 m lines: - 1 audio line for sending its single audio track and receive *one* of the remote tracks (a=3Dsendrecv). - 7 audio tracks just for receiving the rest of the remote audio tracks (a=3Drecvonly). - Same for video. This is completely unnecessary if we skip the SDP tradition. There is no need at all for endpoint-A to tell endpoint-B "you can send me up to 8 audio tracks since I have added 8 m audio lines in my SDP offer, otherwise you can only send me a single audio track, but you can send me later a re-offer". This is something that ORTC "fixes". Regards. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From martin.thomson@gmail.com Wed Jan 22 06:41:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FCC1A00EC for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AhkENdiVuKez for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984091A00E7 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u57so390512wes.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9MmFYQsMgjPfokSp0VlJcSjaiOXq3TQA6bl9rIbLy/k=; b=Sd2x0trcNf6yW6+KYPvjhSI6ClmYxyJoBoKHXJFRopf1iVUWIkGuwP5Qct9chlGz1Z /VbbMWsvZEENghOcxPVMmzipqHPJxnaylM9NOLNUW5GYEJ2q5Q0AT0HZFki6HIhhz1CV 2mIlY2oGeFnVC0SuE7htHs9P9X03MoSENQY2bVVrjvi7QZTOvFs4kyNhSfp0Y/z/kEiW m2jZ6qS2wxvalgibSZ5YIBRWWtvp9AiZczvn3ghrL8PqwfcaZA1bMVYf/ukIv7WeOqC0 j+WrfC3Oi4qEWSNrMS8W0G2s4sEKfCzDE8fHyewHCQIbpwGCA5IFlRFJGxbWK4Z5yJDp E2Lw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.75.202 with SMTP id e10mr20265858wiw.50.1390401688154; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.105.132 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:41:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> References: <52989933.6000907@ericsson.com> <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428EFD3@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:41:28 +0100 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:41:31 -0000 On 22 January 2014 13:29, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > If we consider B attacker is also capable of sniffing packets on wire, DTLS > heartbeat does not have any benefit over STUN consent because B can sniff > the DTLS heartbeat request sent by A and generate response. This is not correct, but not really important either. DTLS ensures that an on-path attacker is unable to observe or insert packets. If B is on-path and able to read signaling, it can return STUN consent. But we've already determined that on-path attackers aren't interesting when it comes to DoS. From adam@nostrum.com Wed Jan 22 06:46:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F491A00F0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:46:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rQYtjF1uEJ4M for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaman.nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC091A00E7 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 06:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from orochi-2.roach.at (99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaman.nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s0MEkVem001516 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:46:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <52DFD9C2.4070804@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:46:26 -0600 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass (shaman.nostrum.com: 99.152.145.110 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:46:41 -0000 On 1/22/14 08:34, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > This is completely unnecessary if we skip the SDP tradition. There is > no need at all for endpoint-A to tell endpoint-B "you can send me up > to 8 audio tracks since I have added 8 m audio lines in my SDP offer, > otherwise you can only send me a single audio track, but you can send > me later a re-offer". This is something that ORTC "fixes". Continually attempting to re-litigate a closed point of consensus is disruptive. Please stop. /a From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 22 07:28:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439131A00EE for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:28:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WUmoTsfpiD_w for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374D51A0118 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BA81EC101 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:48 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31uF3mEYToNw for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 248561EC0FD for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:47 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFE3A6.3080304@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:38 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of rtcweb-transports-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:28:44 -0000 On 12/30/2013 01:28 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > Hi, > > I did a review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01. > > This version has recently been reviewed at least by Dan Wing and Wesley Eddy, so I won't raise the same points they already have, unless I have some further input on them. > > --- > > Overall comments: > > The document is on the right track. The main high level issue is how this document relates to and what will happen with draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos and especially hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations. I don't think there is yet clear consensus let alone decision on what the mandatory/recommended features for either QoS/DSCP handling or NAT/FW traversal are in the "first release" of WebRTC protocols, and what features are left as optional or for future consideration. Those decisions need to happen before rtcweb-transports can properly move forward. > > I agree with Dan Wing's review that there should be some more guidance on the trade-offs involving multiplexing everything into a single port (improved call setup success rate and speed?) and keeping the flows separate (DSCP/QoS handling in some networks). I will include a section on this. I'm not 100% sure it belongs here (it may also belong with the place where we reference BUNDLE, which is not here), but here's also a relevant place to discuss it. > > Section 2.1: > > This section lists assumptions about what needs to be supported in order to actually implement the DSCP handling recommendations provided by rtcweb-qos. It does not however say whether rtcweb-qos itself is a MUST, SHOULD or MAY to implement. That should be made clear first in the RTCWEB WG and subsequently in this document. On the principle that it is better to make a proposal than to leave this blank, I added a section making it a SHOULD, and saying that running on a system not implementing QoS marking is a valid reason to not do it. Let's discuss this further. > > Section 2.2: > > The relationship between this section and Section 6 of draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations needs to become clear. The requirements in draft-hutton are stricter than in this document, and RTCWEB WG needs to decide where the bar is actually set in the first release. This has been discussed on the separate list but I don't think there is yet consensus on the issue. What is currently in rtcweb-transports is a fine minimum set, but not enough to deal with e.g. common enterprise network setups. At the moment, I think -transport- deals with stuff that is well defined in terms of STUN and TURN, while -firewall- deals with stuff that may be in use (like .wpad files and uses of the connect method), but not quite so well defined. I'm happy with that split. > > Section 2.3 > > I would move the reference to "RTP usage" in front of refs to data channel drafts just because that's usually the order in which RTCWEB medias are introduced. Done. > > I agree with Dan Wing that it would be useful to show the demultiplexing diagram of DTLS vs. SRTP/RTCP vs. STUN and SCTP vs. Other within DTLS inline in this document. I think it would also be useful to have the protocol stack shown with TCP and UDP as alternatives on the "classic" transport layer, and then DTLS and SRTP on the next and so on. [I don't think that diagram exists in any or the RTCWEB documents, or does it? In that case I can volunteer take a stab at that unless Harald wants to...] I'll be happy to take an ASCII art contribution here :-) > > Regards, > Markus > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 22 07:29:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28921A013E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GBKApUlBx93N for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AB01A0136 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:00 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-d6-52dfe3ba87dc Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 22.28.04853.AB3EFD25; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.89) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:58 +0100 Message-ID: <52DFE3B9.2050402@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:28:57 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrLJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7ux/eDDFYLWrTOWsFusfZfO7sD k8eSJT+ZPL5c/swWwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlXG17Sp7wSuxigkzNjM2MK4U6mLk5JAQMJG4 u2AyE4QtJnHh3nq2LkYuDiGBE4wSz998Y4FwljNKNGy7wgJSxSugLTH192OwDhYBVYmfD46A xdkELCRu/mhkA7FFBYIlbk17wA5RLyhxcuYTsBoRoPiGPR1gcWEBfYkJuz8C1XMAbRaX6GkM AgkzC+hJTLnawghhy0s0b53NDGILAa1taOpgncDIPwvJ1FlIWmYhaVnAyLyKUbI4tbg4N93I QC83PbdEL7UoM7m4OD9Przh1EyMwCA9u+W20g/HkHvtDjNIcLErivNdZa4KEBNITS1KzU1ML Uovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MMZ1lO0/4XtNfvWpoAXPrMRZM9eIfBfLvfHcaMbsjPUsWhuX9XM7 XXubbn1j+WqpiCi/03IspzdutSlOrW7sfHY9+sWW1ddSOQ680T7M3sflnxm1tu7uNpHOIu4d Plyu/v1zFv0qeijXM+2WR4n8lXcbMqXWh4YsWv7y6jMFYSFJIaZDCmlL5yqxFGckGmoxFxUn AgCZiM5CEAIAAA== Subject: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:29:03 -0000 WG and Authors, (As Individual) I have reviewed this draft and have some comments. 1. Section 3: o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and a ptime of 20 - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] Especially in regards to amount of data packetized in each RTP payload this is fairly narrow definition. Wouldn't the interoperability gain to at least require wider receiver capabilities? 2. Section 3: o Telephone Event - [RFC4733] Maybe one should be more explicit about which RTP payload format one is expected to support. As RFC 4733 contains two. Do I assume correctly that only audio/telephone-event is to be supported? In addition considering that this payload format can carry any of the events listed in the event registry: http://www.iana.org/assignments/audio-telephone-event-registry/audio-telephone-event-registry.xhtml#audio-telephone-event-registry-1 I think the events that an endpoint shall be capable of generating and consume needs to be explicitly listed. 3. Section 4: AUTHORS' NOTE: The idea of using the same level as what the ITU-T recommends is that it should improve inter-operability while at the same time maintaining sufficient dynamic range and reducing the risk of clipping. The main drawbacks are that the resulting level is about 12 dB lower than typical "commercial music" levels and it leaves room for ill-behaved clients to be much louder than a normal client. While using music-type levels is not really an option (it would require using the same compressor-limitors that studios use), it would be possible to have a level slightly higher (e.g. 3 dB) than what is recommended above without causing interoperability problems. The WG needs to resolve this Author's note before we can go to WG last call. I would hope that we would be able to go to WG last call after the next update. Thus, anyone have feedback on this? If no one have input, I would suggest that we remove the note and leave the recommendation as it is. 4. Section 8. Can you please be more specific to what is relevant for this document in regards to the security considerations. I assume confidentiality, source authentication are the two main issues. Anything else that needs to be included? 5. Section 10. [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web] needs to be updated to the latest version. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From david.black@emc.com Wed Jan 22 07:29:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43DA1A0136; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9wxDGlzs8sLx; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com (mailuogwdur.emc.com [128.221.224.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508BF1A0139; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from maildlpprd55.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd55.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.159]) by mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id s0MFSsfa002003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:28:57 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com s0MFSsfa002003 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1390404537; bh=4IVMF7lEAq+LznMTKyb1h7wx1GU=; h=From:To:CC:Date:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=J3QcR7GtoMaG/sZGenEvl0GEtzs+pXCvlEmNw8wgopgP96sODIWI+J7aNzLDCc9gL BXszEm1UQIcQIoW+0+q7smDVej0ASX7wcZJ1GAlM1gG71nXxWJnrnx4HZas99614hk EyCykms9Pgz6ycrh0zVr2isjD3XUijybfljNI+lo= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com s0MFSsfa002003 Received: from mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.21]) by maildlpprd55.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:28:32 -0500 Received: from mxhub19.corp.emc.com (mxhub19.corp.emc.com [10.254.93.48]) by mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id s0MFSV2K006103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:28:31 -0500 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.107]) by mxhub19.corp.emc.com ([10.254.93.48]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:28:31 -0500 From: "Black, David" To: "Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:28:30 -0500 Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Thread-Index: AQHO+8aJErlBSAcWG0ODmxKj8FJpKppaNXsAgAGQV8CAM+aC8IAACWcggACSujCAAMeK8A== Message-ID: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047D88@MX15A.corp.emc.com> References: <52AF0E7B.6030400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047C18@MX15A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Cc: "Black, David" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:29:05 -0000 Subha, I think some rewording is needed and reduction in scope. My concern is two= -fold: 1) RTC-Web documents should be focused on the browser and the browser behav= ior. This sort of discussion of traffic conditioning at network boundaries that = may be well away from the browser seems peripheral. Given the strong desire ex= pressed in both public and private by certain parties to get this draft done quickl= y, expanding its scope to non-essential areas seems like a poor move. 2) RTC-Web traffic will not be the only user of these PHBs and DSCPs, and h= ence probably should not be making recommendations on traffic conditioning in general. If there's a way to specifically identify RTC-Web flows (e.g.,=20 distinguish them from other uses of RTP), it could be appropriate to discus= s what a multi-field (MF) classifier and associated traffic conditioning (see RFC 2475) should do to them at network boundaries, but there's no requirement to deploy MF classifiers at network boundaries. Unless there's an impact on how the browser should initially mark traffic, = it may be better to remove this text. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika) [mailto:sdhesika@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: Black, David; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > David, >=20 > Please help me understand: Are you suggesting that the whole text should = be > removed or reworded to remove guidance and merely say that the DSCP value= s may > have to be combined based on network policies where application classes a= re > fewer. >=20 > Regards, > Subha >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:59 AM > To: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika); gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@teleko= m.de; > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org > Cc: Black, David > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos >=20 > >=20 > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP class= es. >=20 > That guidance would be (or would start with): >=20 > If a packet enters a QoS domain that has no support for the above > defined Data Types/Application classes, then the network node at the > edge SHOULD map the DSCP value to one used by supported classes. > Here are a couple of examples: >=20 > o If a QoS domain supports only one video class, then the packets > from the two video classes SHOULD be remarked to use the same > DSCP, either AF4 or AF3 whichever is supported. > o If a QoS domain supports a single class for all voice and video > traffic, then the packets from all the video and voice classes > SHOULD be combined and remarked to the single supported DSCP. >=20 > This draft may not be a good place for that - there are concerns well bey= ond > rtcweb that drive these decisions by network architects/operators. >=20 > >=20 > Thanks, > --David >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha > > Dhesikan > > (sdhesika) > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:57 PM > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; tsvwg@ietf.org; > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with the > > edits suggested below. The edits are: > > - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network edge > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP class= es. > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04 > > .txt > > > > Regards, > > Subha > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha > > Dhesikan > > (sdhesika) > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry. > > > > Inline as SD: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM > > To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > > Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat): > > > > > Hi Gorry, > > > > > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input: > > > > > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now focused on > > > IP DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate that the > > > 3GPP QCI related discussion has been removed. > > > > > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set of DSCPs > > > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The > > > introduction seems to say, it is largely considered to be applied > > > within LANs, for home gateway internal classification and for Wifi. T= hat's > fine with me. > > > > > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband access > > > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings make sense. > > > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not to trust > > > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn't > > > mention that. Adding such a note may be useful. > > > > > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this context > > > > SD: Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trust of > > client devices and the effect on DSCP marking. > > > > In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the > > authorization mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some > > off-path authorization of DSCP for particular flows. > > > > > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to mark traffic > > > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSCPs only, > > > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors, that a > > > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more fine > > > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all home > > > network devices apply proper markings as suggested by the authors, th= is > may help. > > > > > > > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app > > require a way for the app or transport to know which work appropriately > along that path. > > Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PHB grou= ps. > > > > The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs is > > worth I think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. when > > the App sets EF or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - intended > > precedence would then rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. If > > this were not appropriate, then the loss will depend upon whether it > > was before or after the DSCPs were interpreted as intended. > > > > SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the DSCPs > > defined in this document can be treated in a network that has only 2-4 = PHBs. > > > > > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a discussion > > > on a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd be happy to h= elp. > > > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd expect this > > > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time. > > SD: I will also participate as needed. > > > > Regards, > > Subha > > > > > > Regards and seasonal greetings, > > > > > > Ruediger > > > > > > > > > > > Gorry > > >=20 From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 22 07:55:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8F31A00E4 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:55:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HftlXmx9Bjsi for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280FD1A00EC for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E4F39E070; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:55:19 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-RxzGtqdK+4; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:55:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A11801EC044; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:55:17 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFE9DD.6040202@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:55:09 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hutton, Andrew" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <20130903094045.23789.92925.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5225B1AF.7050906@alvestrand.no> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BBC905@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> In-Reply-To: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BBC905@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 TURN/IPV6 RFC 6156. X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:55:13 -0000 On 09/09/2013 06:36 PM, Hutton, Andrew wrote: > Currently draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 does not say anything about IPV6 which I assume it should. Specifically I am thinking that it needs to state a requirement to support RFC6156 support "Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) Extension for IPv6". > > I am not sure how much we need to say about webrtc client procedures around RFC6156 and whether they should be included in the draft-ietf-rtcweb-transport or whether it is something we should add to our nat/firewall draft (draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations). Any opinions on this? I've added a section saying that we MUST support RFC 6156. I don't think we need to say more. > > Regards > Andy > > From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Wed Jan 22 07:58:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E511E1A0445 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:58:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ns-N6q1b-upY for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E331A043B for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-af-52dfeaa9b0a9 Received: from ESESSHC020.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 46.BC.10875.9AAEFD25; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:58:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.114]) by ESESSHC020.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.78]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:58:33 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: =?utf-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= , Paul Kyzivat Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired Thread-Index: AQHPF38oIO7L40kANU2m8H3Z3gS+PpqQ5ptg Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:58:33 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D115528@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AD81A0121 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:29:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eojNTyVOKkFD for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC131A0120 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3EC39E95A; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:29:46 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hw8qSHHQahZq; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:29:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6B1DC39E070; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:29:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFF1EF.30906@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:29:35 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <8F9E4453-BAD3-4ADD-9548-B0727E263F7F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8F9E4453-BAD3-4ADD-9548-B0727E263F7F@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:29:42 -0000 (following up on old mail) On 12/12/2013 06:20 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > This document does not explain why the media and data need to share the= same 5-tuple. For inspiration I re-read the introduction to draft-ietf-= mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation, but it also does not explain the reason it= multiplexes everything onto one port. Is there a citation to why this m= ultiplexing is necessary? I ask because draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports mak= es a slight acknowledgement that per-packet DSCP marking is not always po= ssible, but draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports does not provide much guidance f= or when using the same 5-tuple is harmful or is helpful or is necessary. = It seems draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports is a good place for the guidance b= etween reduced call setup time (which I understand is the primary motivat= ion, but again I don't know where that was written down) versus getting t= he OS to permit setting per-packet DSCP versus getting the network to ass= ist with 5-tuple prioritization. > > Other comments: > > > Section 2.1: > If DSCP code points can only be set on a per-socket basis, not per-= > packet, one loses the ability to have the network discriminate > reliably between classes of traffic sent over the same transport, b= ut > this does not prevent communication. > > In the case where per-packet DSCP cannot be set (due to OS limitations,= I suppose?), should the I-D encourage the endpoint to perhaps avoid bund= ling, or explain trade-offs of multiplexing everything to one port versus= using separate ports? Added a section. > > > Section 2.2: > In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN > using TCP between the client and the server MUST be supported, and > TURN using TLS between the client and the server MUST be supported.= > > The "using TCP between the client and the server" is confusing. How ab= out just "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TUR= N-TCP [RFC6062] MUST be supported, and ..." . Actually this illustrates the issue. This is not TURN-TCP, it's TURN=20 (RFC 5766) section 2.1. > > > Section 2.2: > ICE TCP candidates [RFC6062] MAY be supported; this may allow > applications to achieve peer-to-peer communication across UDP- > blocking firewalls, but this also requires use of the SRTP/AVPF/TCP= > profile of RTP. > > It doesn't require SRTP/AVPF/TCP profile, see http://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc6544#section-4.3 and the last paragraph of page 11 http://tools.ietf= =2Eorg/html/rfc6544#page-11 specifically "If an agent is utilizing SRTP [= RFC3711], it MAY include a mix of UDP and TCP candidates. " I removed all mention of profiles. It belongs in the RTP draft. > > > Section 2.2: > The following specifications MUST be supported: > > o ICE [RFC5245] > > o TURN, including TURN over TCP[RFC5766]. > > could be improved by clarifying ICE full implementation is necessary, a= nd tightening TURN. I suggest: > > "o Full implementation of ICE [RFC5245] > o TURN [RFC5766], except that TURN over TLS MAY be supported > o TURN over TCP [RFC6062]" > > > Section 2.2: > TURN over TLS [RFC5766] over TCP MAY be supported. (QUESTION: SHOU= LD? MUST?) > > Remove that sentence and fold it into the MUST in the previous sentence= , because TURN-over-TLS is defined in the main TURN RFC (RFC5766). I moved ICE up a bit. This section repeated (and contradicted) earlier te= xt. > > > Section 2.2: > For referring to STUN and TURN servers, this specification depends = on > the STUN URI, [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri]. > > Does that sentence need RFC2119 language? It think it also needs to ci= te TURN URI, RFC5928. The main purpose of this mention was to get the document into the=20 normative dependency chain. I think the reference is in JSEP now, so I=20 can delete it from here. > > > Section 2.3: > RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP ov= er > the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification > [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. Further separation of the DTLS traffic > into SCTP and "other" is described in . > > I would just pull the demultiplexing algorithm into this I-D, as this I= -D is where all of these protocols are brought together. For reference, = RFC5764 shows: > > +----------------+ > | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP > | | > packet --> | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS > | | > | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN > +----------------+ > > > so to add SCTP it would be something like: > > +----------------+ > | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP > | | > packet --> | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN > | | > | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS > +----------------+ | > V > +-------------------------+ > SCTP<--+- C-T =3D application_data | > | | > DTLS<--+- C-T =3D | > +-------------------------+ > > > Where "C-T" is the TLS ContentType. This doesn't make much sense to me. When I look at https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters/tls-parameters.xhtml#tls-= parameters-5 all the stuff that isn't "application data" is basically internal to the = DTLS machinery. That's not what I usually call demultiplexing, it's just = the running of the DTLS machinery at that level. > > > > Related to this demultiplexing, it seems this document is best place to= describe using ALPN for the DTLS session (see http://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-thomson-rtcweb-consent-00#section-3). I'll leave a decision on use or non-use of ALPN to the chairs, and=20 insert text here if needed. > > -d > > > > From ibc@aliax.net Wed Jan 22 08:30:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DABF1A03B6 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8j_dBFlGIU4 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f41.google.com (mail-qa0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9FF1A00D7 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id w8so718310qac.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q6pToCLCOFJFH3Hc/5tfrJUKVs9LZlPdYSep4ZsG0Q8=; b=lF/Gx2H6WIIlRZG+XqyHF7Z61pThoxPX3W9ui9JW8B3+CWOHstEhANZHRtPnD5OgSc Z0Ja/iAFQJhxLAtZ6sreKPZMnJJdwto2qV5sHdcH8yeK7sK1Ub6FO8/Mw5dKH8yvxlIC seAl5X++lpNMuWCEJL9XTt5ntMkEskWIwkdwd2XfvClmb8BfCc8Qf4Tv0kjslApYfZOK qE4AWzD9xKx0AwQ2DYMIOUVz5ax/VjgDUXpGWeCBfuFPbSPAY/eMGJWWLc6qeuBQlqXI eLYB0vhf1txPDG2h8w7JuDZpqGfTBhomB7pU8IxdOpvljfpXyOGU9MsESIrgD5zLNU9f o7jg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmsTLp/Tp5jA7GxyOFkFxw90YkAvTwQqCUN0ORg63T0Fz3dbQr2X33woHiyCs6toz+4+rYZ X-Received: by 10.140.109.228 with SMTP id l91mr3713290qgf.72.1390408230639; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:30:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52DFD9C2.4070804@nostrum.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> <52DFD9C2.4070804@nostrum.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:30:10 +0100 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:30:32 -0000 2014/1/22 Adam Roach : > On 1/22/14 08:34, I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo wrote: >> >> This is completely unnecessary if we skip the SDP tradition. There is no >> need at all for endpoint-A to tell endpoint-B "you can send me up to 8 a= udio >> tracks since I have added 8 m audio lines in my SDP offer, otherwise you= can >> only send me a single audio track, but you can send me later a re-offer"= . >> This is something that ORTC "fixes". > > > Continually attempting to re-litigate a closed point of consensus is > disruptive. Please stop. It was not my intention to re-open the discussion. It is just that, AFAIK, the complete usage of SDP in WebRTC is not yet fulfilled and hence I thought there is still room for proposals regarding the Unified Plan specification. Sorry if I was wrong in this matter. Best regards. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From tireddy@cisco.com Wed Jan 22 09:01:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578DB1A0179 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:01:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yc9ekHkNWrYi for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C502E1A013A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:01:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:01:23 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.227]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:01:22 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Consent alternative Thread-Index: Ac8Xk5Cl1FAR6HeMRgiKRnIwy0Q/Bw== Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:01:22 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428F30C@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.76.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:01:25 -0000 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1hcnRpbiBUaG9tc29uIFttYWlsdG86bWFydGluLnRob21zb25AZ21h aWwuY29tXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEphbnVhcnkgMjIsIDIwMTQgODoxMSBQTQ0KPiBU bzogVGlydW1hbGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5ICh0aXJlZGR5KQ0KPiBDYzogTXV0aHUgQXJ1bCBNb3poaSBQ ZXJ1bWFsIChtcGVydW1hbCk7IEN1bGxlbiBKZW5uaW5ncyAoZmx1ZmZ5KTsNCj4gcnRjd2ViQGll dGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbcnRjd2ViXSBDb25zZW50IGFsdGVybmF0aXZlDQo+IA0K PiBPbiAyMiBKYW51YXJ5IDIwMTQgMTM6MjksIFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRkeSAodGlyZWRkeSkN Cj4gPHRpcmVkZHlAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJZiB3ZSBjb25zaWRlciBCIGF0dGFj a2VyIGlzIGFsc28gY2FwYWJsZSBvZiBzbmlmZmluZyBwYWNrZXRzIG9uIHdpcmUsDQo+ID4gRFRM UyBoZWFydGJlYXQgZG9lcyBub3QgaGF2ZSBhbnkgYmVuZWZpdCBvdmVyIFNUVU4gY29uc2VudCBi ZWNhdXNlIEINCj4gPiBjYW4gc25pZmYgdGhlIERUTFMgaGVhcnRiZWF0IHJlcXVlc3Qgc2VudCBi eSBBIGFuZCBnZW5lcmF0ZSByZXNwb25zZS4NCj4gDQo+IFRoaXMgaXMgbm90IGNvcnJlY3QsIGJ1 dCBub3QgcmVhbGx5IGltcG9ydGFudCBlaXRoZXIuICBEVExTIGVuc3VyZXMgdGhhdCBhbiBvbi0N Cj4gcGF0aCBhdHRhY2tlciBpcyB1bmFibGUgdG8gb2JzZXJ2ZSBvciBpbnNlcnQgcGFja2V0cy4g IElmIEIgaXMgb24tcGF0aCBhbmQgYWJsZQ0KPiB0byByZWFkIHNpZ25hbGluZywgaXQgY2FuIHJl dHVybiBTVFVOIGNvbnNlbnQuDQo+IEJ1dCB3ZSd2ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGRldGVybWluZWQgdGhhdCBv bi1wYXRoIGF0dGFja2VycyBhcmVuJ3QgaW50ZXJlc3Rpbmcgd2hlbg0KPiBpdCBjb21lcyB0byBE b1MuDQoNCkkgYW0gc3RpbGwgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIG9mZi1wYXRoIGF0dGFja2VyIG9ubHkgd2hv IGNhbiBzbmlmZiBwYWNrZXRzIGFuZCBzcG9vZiBJUCBhZGRyZXNzIGJ1dCBjYW5ub3QgbW9kaWZ5 IG9yIGNvbnN1bWUgcGFja2V0cy4NCg0KLVRpcnUuDQo= From dave.taht@gmail.com Wed Jan 22 09:04:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663441A0121 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.998 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FRT_STOCK2=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tm3sT6ubCwuf for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED001A0179 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f173.google.com with SMTP id c10so14586142igq.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zLGXKsBHolGtLH7zPztIh/PKxCjWuMb69LG7BwHiq0Q=; b=QDS1YAS5ky5wcndaw8HQm9+jKs6MnWo52mWUhqDlKLqrKbeStK4tm9SM3OvFcCONIX nyg1TiYPlmajAN+mFv4efq5RquisURuWN3aW86bT0Ppy6W09rBEn5mVDQd7ptfzDOtge UDkQTibcR8DzhOcGmSLp6KVk1jcwpDJGtYVxflRpiwP5TxRh4kLW/D4PyY4n14edzXZw kGD6cDyEXZLehqXoPW4gtZ3LkGL0PFwYjrXcbHXP1kHijVjL+7eo/8nwrcrFJmW/xKKh W1REgQYKMBfZ6f773EV79eUcyY+4Ardb+tsp8kf8rgjclG7cCA/1dpBSDkNWGcY1USSq MJOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.57.146 with SMTP id wg18mr2111581icb.42.1390410272534; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.145.67 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:04:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8F9E4453-BAD3-4ADD-9548-B0727E263F7F@cisco.com> <52AF230E.4020202@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:04:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Dan Wing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:04:35 -0000 On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > > On Dec 16, 2013, at 7:58 AM, Harald Alvestrand wro= te: > >> On 12/12/2013 06:20 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >>> This document does not explain why the media and data need to share the= same 5-tuple. For inspiration I re-read the introduction to draft-ietf-mm= usic-sdp-bundle-negotiation, but it also does not explain the reason it mul= tiplexes everything onto one port. >> >> The primary reason is reduced call setup failure frequency >> >> We (Google Talk Video at the time) saw a pretty massive fall in failure = rates when we switched on RTCP bundling (going from 4 ports to 2 ports) bec= ause of the reduced number of failures of the ICE setup - we see no reason = to suspect that the reduction in failures going from 2 ports to 1 port shou= ld be negligible. I would certainly agree that robust call negotiation is a problem with nat, but less so on ipv6 and non-natted technologies. However voip and video providers have been using multiple ports for years (anyone here from asterisk, freeswitch or webex?), and after call negotiation is completed separate tuples help. I'll raise the question at the next vuc videoconference I get to. They are on fridays, new attendies and presenters are always welcome: https://www.facebook.com/voipusers > > Life is nothing but trade-offs. Can the transport draft provide justific= ation/explanation for doing this collapse of multiple streams into the same= (transport) socket. There is a tension between that decision against exis= ting network gear that only does QoS on TCP/UDP port (but can't do QoS on T= CP/UDP port and DSCP). > > >>> Is there a citation to why this multiplexing is necessary? >> No, we did not publish this result. > > I see. > > >>> I ask because draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports makes a slight acknowledge= ment that per-packet DSCP marking is not always possible, but draft-ietf-rt= cweb-transports does not provide much guidance for when using the same 5-tu= ple is harmful or is helpful or is necessary. Incidentally dscp values are not what I consider part of the 5 tuple, which is src,dst,srcport,dstport,proto. I'm not sure if that's clear here. >>>It seems draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports is a good place for the guidance b= etween reduced call setup time (which I understand is the primary motivatio= n, but again I don't know where that was written down) versus getting the O= S to permit setting per-packet DSCP versus getting the network to assist wi= th 5-tuple prioritization. Right now setting per-packet dscp and ecn values can be done via a complex sendmsg call in Linux, for udp. It requires (I think) a setsockopt to do it on tcp. Windows cannot set it at all without admin privs. I've been writing some code to test this sort of stuff but I doubt it or the relevant rfc will be ready for this ietf. I don't care all that much about dscp stuff, do care about ecn in the context of videoconferencing, and like a voip tuple for a reliable timebase. >>> Other comments: >>> >>> >>> Section 2.1: >>> If DSCP code points can only be set on a per-socket basis, not per- >>> packet, one loses the ability to have the network discriminate >>> reliably between classes of traffic sent over the same transport, bu= t >>> this does not prevent communication. >>> >>> In the case where per-packet DSCP cannot be set (due to OS limitations,= I suppose?), should the I-D encourage the endpoint to perhaps avoid bundli= ng, or explain trade-offs of multiplexing everything to one port versus usi= ng separate ports? There is a difference between tcp and udp transports here. >> I don't know that we have data to push this in one direction or the othe= r. > > The I-D is not even discussing that there is a trade off. I think the tr= ansport document should discuss this decision. The presence of data is a d= ifferent problem; even if 99% of networks seen by Google don't do QoS, How could you tell? Diffserv markings get stomped on in transit from providers like comcast, so even if your local router is doing qos/packet scheduling/aqm from markings none of that information survives. I would LOVE to have voip/video data from free.fr's network which deployed fq_codel last year, and from the upcoming adoption of pie for docsis 3.1. > that private satellite network may well benefit from QoS and need to do i= ts QoS using TCP/UDP ports (rather than DSCP). Guidance to implementors se= ems beneficial to me. > > > >> >>> >>> >>> Section 2.2: >>> In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN >>> using TCP between the client and the server MUST be supported, and >>> TURN using TLS between the client and the server MUST be supported. >>> >>> The "using TCP between the client and the server" is confusing. How ab= out just "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN-= TCP [RFC6062] MUST be supported, and ..." . >> >> Actually the language mirrors RFC 5766 section 4, but tightens the restr= ictions: >> >> To ensure interoperability, a TURN server MUST support the use of UDP >> transport between the client and the server, and SHOULD support the >> use of TCP and TLS transport. > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports should make it clearer that it is restrictin= g language from rfc5766. > > >> >> The "server" in this case is the TURN server in both documents, I think.= This could be made clearer. >> > > Thanks. > > -d > > >>> >>> >>> Section 2.2: >>> ICE TCP candidates [RFC6062] MAY be supported; this may allow >>> applications to achieve peer-to-peer communication across UDP- >>> blocking firewalls, but this also requires use of the SRTP/AVPF/TCP >>> profile of RTP. >>> >>> It doesn't require SRTP/AVPF/TCP profile, see http://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc6544#section-4.3 and the last paragraph of page 11 http://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/rfc6544#page-11 specifically "If an agent is utilizing SRTP [RFC371= 1], it MAY include a mix of UDP and TCP candidates. " >> >> I'm happy that it doesn't! >>> >>> >>> Section 2.2: >>> The following specifications MUST be supported: >>> >>> o ICE [RFC5245] >>> >>> o TURN, including TURN over TCP[RFC5766]. >>> >>> could be improved by clarifying ICE full implementation is necessary, a= nd tightening TURN. I suggest: >>> >>> "o Full implementation of ICE [RFC5245] >>> o TURN [RFC5766], except that TURN over TLS MAY be supported >>> o TURN over TCP [RFC6062]" >>> >>> >>> Section 2.2: >>> TURN over TLS [RFC5766] over TCP MAY be supported. (QUESTION: SHOUL= D? MUST?) >>> >>> Remove that sentence and fold it into the MUST in the previous sentence= , because TURN-over-TLS is defined in the main TURN RFC (RFC5766). >> >> RFC 5766 has TLS as SHOULD (see quote above). We already strengthened TC= P from RFC 5766's SHOULD to MUST; I'm still uncertain if we should do the s= ame for TLS, but MAY is weakening 5766, and I don't think we should. >> >>> >>> >>> Section 2.2: >>> For referring to STUN and TURN servers, this specification depends o= n >>> the STUN URI, [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri]. >>> >>> Does that sentence need RFC2119 language? It think it also needs to ci= te TURN URI, RFC5928. >> >> Yep, and use RFC numbers for both. >> >>> >>> >>> Section 2.3: >>> RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP ove= r >>> the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification >>> [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. Further separation of the DTLS traffic >>> into SCTP and "other" is described in . >>> >>> I would just pull the demultiplexing algorithm into this I-D, as this I= -D is where all of these protocols are brought together. For reference, RF= C5764 shows: >>> >>> +----------------+ >>> | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP >>> | | >>> packet --> | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS >>> | | >>> | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN >>> +----------------+ >>> >>> >>> so to add SCTP it would be something like: >>> >>> +----------------+ >>> | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP >>> | | >>> packet --> | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN >>> | | >>> | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS >>> +----------------+ | >>> V >>> +-------------------------+ >>> SCTP<--+- C-T =3D application_data | >>> | | >>> DTLS<--+- C-T =3D | >>> +-------------------------+ >>> >>> >>> Where "C-T" is the TLS ContentType. >>> >>> >>> >>> Related to this demultiplexing, it seems this document is best place to= describe using ALPN for the DTLS session (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-thomson-rtcweb-consent-00#section-3). >> >> If we agree that this is what we should do, we can either include a refe= rence or simply incorporate Martin's text here. So far, I haven't seen a co= nsensus around this draft (but that's the chairs' job to determine). >> >> >>> >>> -d >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --=20 Dave T=E4ht Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.= html From dwing@cisco.com Wed Jan 22 09:17:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B4F1A013A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:17:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FRT_STOCK2=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TwKCZbsZz3-9 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A811A010C for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:17:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12030; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390411061; x=1391620661; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=5ldwnKubXlXHlx99EYEmgD6c3mR8nG+xKxXpsv8v8I0=; b=aRnDytZI2GM17pZDZMHeZFTdfoBHWQb7VYt/zbgealXhtcQXQ/YfGsn2 TUMcHbKd/KoBCkc3tRwN7FsHKqg34tdnRTXQAhIp0xIuoJhoxkTIbweuy 6YOwgO65IYlDdy2Yvcc5mlXuMPZQhwqurK89LrbhUw59r2hdE4Tf0d04c g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0FAAD931KQ/khM/2dsb2JhbABbgww4u2ZPgRYWdIIlAQEBAwEBAQEkRwsFCwsYDCIhBiIBDQYPBBmHWAMJCA29Eg2FVheMaIFhMweCL3WBFASRboJOgXqBbIEyiyuFO4MuOw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,701,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="3354873" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jan 2014 17:17:39 +0000 Received: from dhcp-wlsn01-vlan250-10-147-28-31.cisco.com (dhcp-wlsn01-vlan250-10-147-28-31.cisco.com [10.147.28.31]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0MHHdEN019689; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:17:39 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:17:38 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0A33D180-644D-4AD0-AC7D-7BEBC8C6A21D@cisco.com> References: <8F9E4453-BAD3-4ADD-9548-B0727E263F7F@cisco.com> <52AF230E.4020202@alvestrand.no> To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-01 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:17:44 -0000 On Jan 22, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >>=20 >> On Dec 16, 2013, at 7:58 AM, Harald Alvestrand = wrote: >>=20 >>> On 12/12/2013 06:20 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >>>> This document does not explain why the media and data need to share = the same 5-tuple. For inspiration I re-read the introduction to = draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation, but it also does not explain = the reason it multiplexes everything onto one port. >>>=20 >>> The primary reason is reduced call setup failure frequency >>>=20 >>> We (Google Talk Video at the time) saw a pretty massive fall in = failure rates when we switched on RTCP bundling (going from 4 ports to 2 = ports) because of the reduced number of failures of the ICE setup - we = see no reason to suspect that the reduction in failures going from 2 = ports to 1 port should be negligible. >=20 > I would certainly agree that robust call negotiation is a problem with > nat, but less so on ipv6 and non-natted technologies. >=20 > However voip and video providers have been using multiple ports for > years (anyone here from asterisk, freeswitch or webex?), > and after call negotiation is completed separate tuples help. >=20 > I'll raise the question at the next vuc videoconference I get to. They > are on fridays, new attendies and presenters are always welcome: >=20 > https://www.facebook.com/voipusers >=20 >>=20 >> Life is nothing but trade-offs. Can the transport draft provide = justification/explanation for doing this collapse of multiple streams = into the same (transport) socket. There is a tension between that = decision against existing network gear that only does QoS on TCP/UDP = port (but can't do QoS on TCP/UDP port and DSCP). >>=20 >>=20 >>>> Is there a citation to why this multiplexing is necessary? >>> No, we did not publish this result. >>=20 >> I see. >>=20 >>=20 >>>> I ask because draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports makes a slight = acknowledgement that per-packet DSCP marking is not always possible, but = draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports does not provide much guidance for when = using the same 5-tuple is harmful or is helpful or is necessary. >=20 > Incidentally dscp values are not what I consider part of the 5 tuple, > which is src,dst,srcport,dstport,proto. I'm not sure if that's clear > here. >=20 >>>> It seems draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports is a good place for the = guidance between reduced call setup time (which I understand is the = primary motivation, but again I don't know where that was written down) = versus getting the OS to permit setting per-packet DSCP versus getting = the network to assist with 5-tuple prioritization. >=20 > Right now setting per-packet dscp and ecn values can be done via a > complex sendmsg call in Linux, for udp. It requires > (I think) a setsockopt to do it on tcp. It is not useful to set per-packet DSCP for TCP because of nagle = algorithm (which can also be disabled, somewhat) but more importantly = because of TCP's head of line blocking. FreeBSD had a bug, fixed a year or so ago, where DSCP would affect = packets immediately, even UDP packets that had been queued (but not yet = transmitted), which is bad. I dunno if Linux or Windows suffer similar = behavior. I believe it was Mark Andrews that reported = and fixed the FreeBSD bug, but my memory is a little fuzzy around that. > Windows cannot set it at all > without admin privs. I've been writing some code to test this sort of > stuff but I doubt it or the relevant rfc will be ready for this ietf. >=20 > I don't care all that much about dscp stuff, do care about ecn in the > context of videoconferencing, and like a voip tuple for > a reliable timebase. >=20 >>>> Other comments: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.1: >>>> If DSCP code points can only be set on a per-socket basis, not = per- >>>> packet, one loses the ability to have the network discriminate >>>> reliably between classes of traffic sent over the same transport, = but >>>> this does not prevent communication. >>>>=20 >>>> In the case where per-packet DSCP cannot be set (due to OS = limitations, I suppose?), should the I-D encourage the endpoint to = perhaps avoid bundling, or explain trade-offs of multiplexing everything = to one port versus using separate ports? >=20 > There is a difference between tcp and udp transports here. >=20 >>> I don't know that we have data to push this in one direction or the = other. >>=20 >> The I-D is not even discussing that there is a trade off. I think = the transport document should discuss this decision. The presence of = data is a different problem; even if 99% of networks seen by Google = don't do QoS, >=20 > How could you tell? Diffserv markings get stomped on in transit from > providers like comcast, so even if your local > router is doing qos/packet scheduling/aqm from markings none of that > information survives. Not all traffic goes over the Internet -- there are enterprise networks = where DSCP could be honored, on purpose and by design. This is = difficult with today's technology because today the network = administrator has no reasonable way to deny QoS when using a certain = DSCP value while running BitTorrent versus those same DSCP from an = endpoint while running IT-sanctioned video endpoint software. I would = like to fix that, and have proposals to do so. > I would LOVE to have voip/video data from free.fr's network which > deployed fq_codel last year, and from the upcoming > adoption of pie for docsis 3.1. I would love it, too. I am hoping one or both of = draft-martinsen-mmusic-malice / draft-wing-pcp-flowdata will succeed = where DSCP failed. -d >> that private satellite network may well benefit from QoS and need to = do its QoS using TCP/UDP ports (rather than DSCP). Guidance to = implementors seems beneficial to me. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.2: >>>> In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP traffic, TURN >>>> using TCP between the client and the server MUST be supported, = and >>>> TURN using TLS between the client and the server MUST be = supported. >>>>=20 >>>> The "using TCP between the client and the server" is confusing. = How about just "In order to deal with firewalls that block all UDP = traffic, TURN-TCP [RFC6062] MUST be supported, and ..." . >>>=20 >>> Actually the language mirrors RFC 5766 section 4, but tightens the = restrictions: >>>=20 >>> To ensure interoperability, a TURN server MUST support the use of = UDP >>> transport between the client and the server, and SHOULD support the >>> use of TCP and TLS transport. >>=20 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports should make it clearer that it is = restricting language from rfc5766. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The "server" in this case is the TURN server in both documents, I = think. This could be made clearer. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks. >>=20 >> -d >>=20 >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.2: >>>> ICE TCP candidates [RFC6062] MAY be supported; this may allow >>>> applications to achieve peer-to-peer communication across UDP- >>>> blocking firewalls, but this also requires use of the = SRTP/AVPF/TCP >>>> profile of RTP. >>>>=20 >>>> It doesn't require SRTP/AVPF/TCP profile, see = http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-4.3 and the last paragraph of = page 11 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#page-11 specifically "If an = agent is utilizing SRTP [RFC3711], it MAY include a mix of UDP and TCP = candidates. " >>>=20 >>> I'm happy that it doesn't! >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.2: >>>> The following specifications MUST be supported: >>>>=20 >>>> o ICE [RFC5245] >>>>=20 >>>> o TURN, including TURN over TCP[RFC5766]. >>>>=20 >>>> could be improved by clarifying ICE full implementation is = necessary, and tightening TURN. I suggest: >>>>=20 >>>> "o Full implementation of ICE [RFC5245] >>>> o TURN [RFC5766], except that TURN over TLS MAY be supported >>>> o TURN over TCP [RFC6062]" >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.2: >>>> TURN over TLS [RFC5766] over TCP MAY be supported. (QUESTION: = SHOULD? MUST?) >>>>=20 >>>> Remove that sentence and fold it into the MUST in the previous = sentence, because TURN-over-TLS is defined in the main TURN RFC = (RFC5766). >>>=20 >>> RFC 5766 has TLS as SHOULD (see quote above). We already = strengthened TCP from RFC 5766's SHOULD to MUST; I'm still uncertain if = we should do the same for TLS, but MAY is weakening 5766, and I don't = think we should. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.2: >>>> For referring to STUN and TURN servers, this specification = depends on >>>> the STUN URI, [I-D.nandakumar-rtcweb-stun-uri]. >>>>=20 >>>> Does that sentence need RFC2119 language? It think it also needs = to cite TURN URI, RFC5928. >>>=20 >>> Yep, and use RFC numbers for both. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Section 2.3: >>>> RTCWEB implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP = over >>>> the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification >>>> [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. Further separation of the DTLS traffic >>>> into SCTP and "other" is described in . >>>>=20 >>>> I would just pull the demultiplexing algorithm into this I-D, as = this I-D is where all of these protocols are brought together. For = reference, RFC5764 shows: >>>>=20 >>>> +----------------+ >>>> | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP >>>> | | >>>> packet --> | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS >>>> | | >>>> | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN >>>> +----------------+ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> so to add SCTP it would be something like: >>>>=20 >>>> +----------------+ >>>> | 127 < B < 192 -+--> forward to RTP >>>> | | >>>> packet --> | B < 2 -+--> forward to STUN >>>> | | >>>> | 19 < B < 64 -+--> forward to DTLS >>>> +----------------+ | >>>> V >>>> +-------------------------+ >>>> SCTP<--+- C-T =3D application_data | >>>> | | >>>> DTLS<--+- C-T =3D | >>>> +-------------------------+ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Where "C-T" is the TLS ContentType. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Related to this demultiplexing, it seems this document is best = place to describe using ALPN for the DTLS session (see = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-rtcweb-consent-00#section-3). >>>=20 >>> If we agree that this is what we should do, we can either include a = reference or simply incorporate Martin's text here. So far, I haven't = seen a consensus around this draft (but that's the chairs' job to = determine). >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -d >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Dave T=E4ht >=20 > Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: = http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html From internet-drafts@ietf.org Wed Jan 22 10:17:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6C81A02F1; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FvxeiJBAje0E; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDDF1A0158; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.90.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140122181711.26436.37394.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0800 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:17:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W= orking Group of the IETF. Title : Transports for RTCWEB Author : Harald Alvestrand Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2014-01-22 Abstract: This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB, including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Jan 22 10:21:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9541A01A9 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwAOeiPdEghG for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2951A01BE for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9693D39E98E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:08 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3aOWJojU+aMd for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A1F739E070 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E00C09.7020303@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:20:57 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <20140122181711.26436.29375.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140122181711.26436.29375.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140122181711.26436.29375.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080905010002040604040809" Subject: [rtcweb] The -Transport draft has a -02 version X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:21:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080905010002040604040809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just emitted a new version before leaving for the day. I'll probably have to fix some things after internalizing today's discussion emails, but version numbers are cheap. Please comment! Harald -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Harald T. Alvestrand , Harald Alvestrand A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports Revision: 02 Title: Transports for RTCWEB Document date: 2014-01-22 Group: rtcweb Pages: 9 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02 Abstract: This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB, including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------080905010002040604040809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just emitted a new version before leaving for the day.

    I'll probably have to fix some things after internalizing today's discussion emails, but version numbers are cheap. Please comment!

                Harald


    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt
    Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:17:11 -0800
    From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
    To: Harald T. Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> 


    A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports
Revision:	02
Title:		Transports for RTCWEB
Document date:	2014-01-22
Group:		rtcweb
Pages:		9
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02
Diff:           http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-02

Abstract:
   This document describes the data transport protocols used by RTCWEB,
   including the protocols used for interaction with intermediate boxes
   such as firewalls, relays and NAT boxes.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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The IETF Secretariat


    --------------080905010002040604040809-- From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Jan 22 11:18:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AA91A01AF for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:18:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2c7NTL0TUXzS for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe14:44:76:96:59:243]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFED1A0141 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta19.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.98]) by qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id H6r81n00127AodY5D7J1U5; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:18:01 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.164]) by omta19.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id H7J11n0083ZTu2S3f7J1uP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:18:01 +0000 Message-ID: <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:18:01 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1390418281; bh=iQxBzPZWq19RDrLLoiYeWtAJwYOJfp4xjrevwFDuZQs=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=n4kspgdR9WqMSl+0biuc6qKprAaQPY3Co8Bx3OWHcF9vizC+8d9cfaANFSnQdSKUC jTZZByyjXy5ljU3dSJxhTQyY21ldlmLfCm4pSrwpe/kHv5v4Dca8/9OAPfq9ELyHjR w/IOcQSgagjSv2q0+Q2w9okbZD0oiXkebY4MHyy5RvZlK9adpUZ7TH7z5Jay22tUn1 q7eQ7dSAOuTYkKHjATGEI9ZheLMG6p7Ieq/dOEmNun6Wk2fKXF7c2c3qQ//BFFs0ax HLrvM78ex9+cf6LQS9VO/de4il61s6wnG3QC2J5T+ezJ6s4GDbneDO77FDLW63zElK YVHOrC3I2ucuQ== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:18:03 -0000 Iñaki, I've read what you read below, but I cannot figure out what you want the O/A to contain, and what you want it to mean. Thanks, Paul On 1/22/14 9:34 AM, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > 2014/1/20 Paul Kyzivat : >> What is it that troubles you about this. >> >> I guess from prior comment that you want to add more m-lines in the answer? >> >> But O/A is a negotiation/handshake. If you include extra m-lines in the >> answer then there is no completion to the negotiation of those. > > Having two endpoints establshing a media session, the only they need is: > > - To decide a transport or transports for sending media one to each other. > - To tell one to each other what it is sending. > > SDP is good (enough) in classic and simple communications in which > both endpoints send and receive something similar (i.e. one single > audio track in both directions). > > But nowadays we want that endpoint-A can send just one audio track and > one video track and receive 8 audio tracks and 8 video tracks from > endpoint-B. If endpoint-A makes the SDP offer, it "should" include 16 > m lines: > > - 1 audio line for sending its single audio track and receive *one* of > the remote tracks (a=sendrecv). > - 7 audio tracks just for receiving the rest of the remote audio > tracks (a=recvonly). > - Same for video. > > This is completely unnecessary if we skip the SDP tradition. There is > no need at all for endpoint-A to tell endpoint-B "you can send me up > to 8 audio tracks since I have added 8 m audio lines in my SDP offer, > otherwise you can only send me a single audio track, but you can send > me later a re-offer". > > This is something that ORTC "fixes". > > Regards. > > > From ted.ietf@gmail.com Wed Jan 22 13:27:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEE41A025A; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Aiz7y-wwwRl; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5661A026A; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id x13so156089ief.9 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=noao96C6WliAI8uywHCD+Kqed29e+ON+bOXsNZKOK3w=; b=Lg8l+SEqZWcCkw++OGmY5zzWodUQmIscW088l/aSzBAxtk3pSjBVmPCQ5/qwGpv8mO MYW+lvME2EuBq48gQsIDnlg6/ZdnTfsLP5aDYxVWQRw2oagIsrjYu4TYC8fE9sFIFil1 fX3Rra7SnsH3Icn+n70jXk+IPz/S6PjsVFW6NUJOLA6cV8mfWpigTtpe7SqWCmrdLyGp 9SJt2AcvNHZFYzjGGlwh9YTZyY6b36sEMSUPQKz7SBB6YXUlvb2cYtFn5qt5TR23K6Zz EVYlUP1sHemFbnMiwXN/FS1yj2ihuYoCCOLIoAuyhB5URfBond93c2sq6LyijH9gBQ5z yj/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.56.4 with SMTP id wa4mr3136918icb.18.1390426059415; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.65.14 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047D88@MX15A.corp.emc.com> References: <52AF0E7B.6030400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047C18@MX15A.corp.emc.com> <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712026F047D88@MX15A.corp.emc.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:27:39 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "Black, David" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec517aa5a5ba5d604f095cb4d Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:27:45 -0000 --bcaec517aa5a5ba5d604f095cb4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Black, David wrote: > Subha, > > > > I think some rewording is needed and reduction in scope. My concern is > two-fold: > > 1) RTC-Web documents should be focused on the browser and the browser > behavior. > Just as a wordsmithing correction, we should say "WebRTC endpoints" rather than browser, since mobile (or other) applications may use the WebRTC framework without being a browser. Though we could easily rat-hole on what constitutes a browser, generalizing this to "WebRTC endpoint" seems to avoid the issue. regards, Ted Hardie > This sort of discussion of traffic conditioning at network boundaries that > may > be well away from the browser seems peripheral. Given the strong desire > expressed > in both public and private by certain parties to get this draft done > quickly, > expanding its scope to non-essential areas seems like a poor move. > > 2) RTC-Web traffic will not be the only user of these PHBs and DSCPs, and > hence > probably should not be making recommendations on traffic conditioning in > general. If there's a way to specifically identify RTC-Web flows (e.g., > distinguish them from other uses of RTP), it could be appropriate to > discuss > what a multi-field (MF) classifier and associated traffic conditioning > (see RFC 2475) should do to them at network boundaries, but there's no > requirement to deploy MF classifiers at network boundaries. > > Unless there's an impact on how the browser should initially mark traffic, > it may > be better to remove this text. > > > > Thanks, > --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika) [mailto:sdhesika@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:19 PM > > To: Black, David; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; > > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > David, > > > > Please help me understand: Are you suggesting that the whole text should > be > > removed or reworded to remove guidance and merely say that the DSCP > values may > > have to be combined based on network policies where application classes > are > > fewer. > > > > Regards, > > Subha > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:59 AM > > To: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika); gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; > Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; > > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org > > Cc: Black, David > > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > > > > > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP > classes. > > > > That guidance would be (or would start with): > > > > If a packet enters a QoS domain that has no support for the above > > defined Data Types/Application classes, then the network node at the > > edge SHOULD map the DSCP value to one used by supported classes. > > Here are a couple of examples: > > > > o If a QoS domain supports only one video class, then the packets > > from the two video classes SHOULD be remarked to use the same > > DSCP, either AF4 or AF3 whichever is supported. > > o If a QoS domain supports a single class for all voice and video > > traffic, then the packets from all the video and voice classes > > SHOULD be combined and remarked to the single supported DSCP. > > > > This draft may not be a good place for that - there are concerns well > beyond > > rtcweb that drive these decisions by network architects/operators. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > --David > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha > > > Dhesikan > > > (sdhesika) > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:57 PM > > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; tsvwg@ietf.org; > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > > > A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with the > > > edits suggested below. The edits are: > > > - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network edge > > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP > classes. > > > > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04 > > > .txt > > > > > > Regards, > > > Subha > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha > > > Dhesikan > > > (sdhesika) > > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM > > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > > > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > > > Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry. > > > > > > Inline as SD: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > > gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM > > > To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > > > Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > > > > > See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat): > > > > > > > Hi Gorry, > > > > > > > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input: > > > > > > > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now focused on > > > > IP DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate that the > > > > 3GPP QCI related discussion has been removed. > > > > > > > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set of DSCPs > > > > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The > > > > introduction seems to say, it is largely considered to be applied > > > > within LANs, for home gateway internal classification and for Wifi. > That's > > fine with me. > > > > > > > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband access > > > > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings make sense. > > > > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not to trust > > > > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn't > > > > mention that. Adding such a note may be useful. > > > > > > > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this context > > > > > > SD: Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trust of > > > client devices and the effect on DSCP marking. > > > > > > In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the > > > authorization mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some > > > off-path authorization of DSCP for particular flows. > > > > > > > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to mark traffic > > > > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSCPs only, > > > > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors, that a > > > > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more fine > > > > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all home > > > > network devices apply proper markings as suggested by the authors, > this > > may help. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app > > > require a way for the app or transport to know which work appropriately > > along that path. > > > Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PHB > groups. > > > > > > The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs is > > > worth I think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. when > > > the App sets EF or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - intended > > > precedence would then rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. If > > > this were not appropriate, then the loss will depend upon whether it > > > was before or after the DSCPs were interpreted as intended. > > > > > > SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the DSCPs > > > defined in this document can be treated in a network that has only 2-4 > PHBs. > > > > > > > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a discussion > > > > on a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd be happy to > help. > > > > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd expect this > > > > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time. > > > SD: I will also participate as needed. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Subha > > > > > > > > Regards and seasonal greetings, > > > > > > > > Ruediger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gorry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --bcaec517aa5a5ba5d604f095cb4d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 7:28 AM= , Black, David <david.black@emc.com> wrote:
    Subha,

    <WG chair hat off>

    I think some rewording is needed and reduction in scope. =A0My concern is t= wo-fold:

    1) RTC-Web documents should be focused on the browser and the browser behav= ior.

    Just as a wordsmithing correction, we should say "= WebRTC endpoints" rather than browser, since mobile (or other) applica= tions may use the WebRTC framework without being a browser.=A0 Though we co= uld easily rat-hole on what constitutes a browser, generalizing this to &qu= ot;WebRTC endpoint" seems to avoid the issue.

    regards,

    Ted Hardie

    =A0
    This sort of discussion of traffic conditioning at network boundaries that = may
    be well away from the browser seems peripheral. =A0Given the strong desire = expressed
    in both public and private by certain parties to get this draft done quickl= y,
    expanding its scope to non-essential areas seems like a poor move.

    2) RTC-Web traffic will not be the only user of these PHBs and DSCPs, and h= ence
    probably should not be making recommendations on traffic conditioning in general. =A0If there's a way to specifically identify RTC-Web flows (e.= g.,
    distinguish them from other uses of RTP), it could be appropriate to discus= s
    what a multi-field (MF) classifier and associated traffic conditioning
    (see RFC 2475) should do to them at network boundaries, but there's no<= br> requirement to deploy MF classifiers at network boundaries.

    Unless there's an impact on how the browser should initially mark traff= ic, it may
    be better to remove this text.

    </WG chair hat off>

    Thanks,
    --David

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika) [mailto= :sdhesika@cisco.com]
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:19 PM
    > To: Black, David; gorry@erg.ab= dn.ac.uk; Ruediger.Geib@tel= ekom.de;
    > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org
    > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] com= ments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos
    >
    > David,
    >
    > Please help me understand: Are you suggesting that the whole text shou= ld be
    > removed or reworded to remove guidance and merely say that the DSCP va= lues may
    > have to be combined based on network policies where application classe= s are
    > fewer.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Subha
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Black, David [mailto:davi= d.black@emc.com]
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:59 AM
    > To: Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika); gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Rued= iger.Geib@telekom.de;
    > tsvwg@ietf.org; rtcweb@ietf.org
    > Cc: Black, David
    > Subject: RE: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos
    >
    > <WG chair hat off>
    >
    > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP= classes.
    >
    > That guidance would be (or would start with):
    >
    > =A0 =A0If a packet enters a QoS domain that has no support for the abo= ve
    > =A0 =A0defined Data Types/Application classes, then the network node a= t the
    > =A0 =A0edge SHOULD map the DSCP value to one used by supported classes= .
    > =A0 =A0Here are a couple of examples:
    >
    > =A0 =A0o =A0If a QoS domain supports only one video class, then the pa= ckets
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 from the two video classes SHOULD be remarked to use the s= ame
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 DSCP, either AF4 or AF3 whichever is supported.
    > =A0 =A0o =A0If a QoS domain supports a single class for all voice and = video
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 traffic, then the packets from all the video and voice cla= sses
    > =A0 =A0 =A0 SHOULD be combined and remarked to the single supported DS= CP.
    >
    > This draft may not be a good place for that - there are concerns well = beyond
    > rtcweb that drive these decisions by network architects/operators.
    >
    > </WG chair hat off>
    >
    > Thanks,
    > --David
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsv= wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha
    > > Dhesikan
    > > (sdhesika)
    > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:57 PM
    > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<= /a>; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; tsvwg@ietf.org;
    > > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos<= br> > >
    > > A new draft of the QoS document for rtcweb has been posted with t= he
    > > edits suggested below. The edits are:
    > > - Noted the trust issue and possibility of remarking at network e= dge
    > > - Provided some guidance for networks with reduced number of DSCP= classes.
    > >
    > >
    > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dra= ft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-04
    > > .txt
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > > Subha
    > >
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsv= wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Subha
    > > Dhesikan
    > > (sdhesika)
    > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:28 AM
    > > To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<= /a>; Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
    > > Cc:     tsvwg@ietf.org
    > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos<= br> > >
    > > Thank you for your comments, Ruediger and Gorry.
    > >
    > > Inline as SD:
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsv= wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
    > > gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<= br> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:28 AM
    > > To: Ruediger.Geib@tel= ekom.de
    > > Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<= /a>; tsvwg@ietf.org
    > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments on draft-dhesikan-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos<= br> > >
    > > See a few thoughts in-line (with no chair-hat):
    > >
    > > > Hi Gorry,
    > > >
    > > > my small contribution to discuss the TSVWG input:
    > > >
    > > > draft dhesikan -03 is a rather short document. It is now foc= used on
    > > > IP DSCP markings suggested for RTCweb traffic. I appreciate = that the
    > > > 3GPP QCI related discussion has been removed.
    > > >
    > > > The authors of draft dhesikan prefer to support a wide set o= f DSCPs
    > > > and suggest to support different levels of priority. The
    > > > introduction seems to say, it is largely considered to be ap= plied
    > > > within LANs, for home gateway internal classification and fo= r Wifi. That's
    > fine with me.
    > > >
    > > > In the case of traffic sent to a network provider broadband = access
    > > > router / network gateway, I doubt that too many markings mak= e sense.
    > > > I'd expect the network provider routers or gateways not = to trust
    > > > DiffServ markings sent by a consumer device. The draft doesn= 't
    > > > mention that. Adding such a note may be useful.
    > > >
    > > Personally I'd agree - it would be useful to describe this co= ntext
    > >
    > > SD: =A0Sounds good. I will add a statement or two on lack of trus= t of
    > > client devices and the effect on DSCP marking.
    > >
    > > In addition, I am expecting there will be some work done on the > > authorization mechanisms for webrtc traffic that will allow some<= br> > > off-path authorization of DSCP for particular flows.
    > >
    > > > As I'm known for simplistic approaches, my take is to ma= rk traffic
    > > > sent by a home gateway to a provider policy point by two DSC= Ps only,
    > > > Best Effort and an AF PHB. I agree however with the authors,= that a
    > > > Home Gateway could and should internally apply a much more f= ine
    > > > grained QoS differentiation for upstream traffic. If all hom= e
    > > > network devices apply proper markings as suggested by the au= thors, this
    > may help.
    > > >
    > >
    > > I think it would be useful to say that each DSCP by a single app<= br> > > require a way for the app or transport to know which work appropr= iately
    > along that path.
    > > Especially when traffic is dynamically moved between different PH= B groups.
    > >
    > > The fact that many deployed networks support a small set of DSCPs= is
    > > worth I think a mention. To me this has some implications, e.g. w= hen
    > > the App sets EF or CS1 and networks supports just AF and BE - int= ended
    > > precedence would then rely upon correct treatment or re-marking. = If
    > > this were not appropriate, then the loss will depend upon whether= it
    > > was before or after the DSCPs were interpreted as intended.
    > >
    > > SD: ack. Yes, it is possible to add an example or two on how the = DSCPs
    > > defined in this document can be treated in a network that has onl= y 2-4 PHBs.
    > >
    > > > If there's interest to approach the 3GPP community for a= discussion
    > > > on a useful relation between 3GPP QCIs and IP PHBs, I'd = be happy to help.
    > > > This should be documented in a separate draft, as I'd ex= pect this
    > > > inter SDO work to consume a fair amount of time.
    > > SD: I will also participate as needed.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > > Subha
    > > >
    > > > Regards and seasonal greetings,
    > > >
    > > > Ruediger
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > Gorry
    > >
    >

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --bcaec517aa5a5ba5d604f095cb4d-- From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Wed Jan 22 15:18:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29C11A01F6 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:18:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HwbLClHC0j_d for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us2.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.238]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BB91A012C for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.240.174]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 59D9D6395ED; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:18:39 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390432725; bh=gNqBufBNhBf29Wo5U6uOdoJxuJOXcgQ3hOe+VVdT/UM=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=U6OFD2+0FlD6F0/qYedXyWckwWrsbezE9mK8qxNIUm6mubEhrht5YKoXSfTnBqq92 XHjmIqjbRuZctahC3JfZOPbuVjDeUnAjtQcnzPTD6O11/ciGDCfcAUxkCTPqqRSEb7 PGT1wtyx/8M1EzrY/wlRhfgE+HGIVwub87GJOed4= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin \(Xin\)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:48:31 +0530 Message-ID: <009401cf17c8$48f53040$dadf90c0$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8R22zs+ztIUHsbTO2meyNN6GZgFAF7K/dw Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020204.52E051D5.0101, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.142 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:18:49 -0000 I support Chenxin proposal. > -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:50 PM > To: Chenxin (Xin); Hutton, Andrew; Christer Holmberg; Parthasarathi R; > rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > WG, >=20 > It has been quite some time since the WG last call ended and a new > revision was submitted. As Document Shepherd I want to push this > document to publication request. >=20 > Chenxin proposed below three different sets of changes to the = document. > Does the WG support making these changes? Please indicate within the > next week if you support or want to reject these changes. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Magnus >=20 >=20 > On 2013-10-17 12:23, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > I think you means F29 not F27:). When I read it , I realize that > there > > is cross and ambiguous between 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 > > > > > > > > More details: > > > > > > > > The topic of 3.3.2 is "Simple Video Communication Service, = *NAT/FW* > > that blocks UDP". But in the description and requirement, only *NAT* > is > > considered. > > > > The topic of 3.3.3 is "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that > > only allows http", But only *http proxy* deployed scenarios is > considered. > > > > > > > > There are other usecases " FW block UDP, incoming TCP, Http > allowing > > FW without http proxy deplolyed under the permission of FW policy" , > > which is lost in the description. If we need consider these usecases > , I > > suggest to make some change to the description. > > > > > > > > Proposal 1 : > > > > > > > > add FW related words to section 3.3.2 > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3.3.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks UDP > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.1. Description > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > Communication > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > the > > > > users is behind a NAT*/FW* that blocks UDP traffic. > > > > . > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > F29 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > data to a peer in the presence of NATs *and FWs* that > > > > block UDP traffic ,* when FW policy allows WebRTC > traffic*. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Proposal 2: If the" Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > > case is impliedly included in F29. I suggest to change the topics of > > 3.3.3 to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows > > traffic via a http proxy". So the 3.3.3 is a specific case. > > > > > > > > Proposal 3: If " Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > case > > need to be explicitly mentioned. I suggest to add some descriptions > to 3.3.3 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3.3.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows http > > > > > > > > 3.3.3.1. Description > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > Communication > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > the > > > > users is behind a http allowing FW or a FW that only allows > traffic > > via a HTTP Proxy. > > > > > > > > 3.3.3.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > F37 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > data to a peer in the presence of http allowing FWs or = FWs > > that only > > > > allows traffic via a HTTP Proxy, when FW policy > > > > allows WebRTC traffic. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Xin > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Wed Jan 22 15:33:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3221A0514 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:33:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAToo_LWpNk0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us1.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA281A0511 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.240.174]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DBF7B1908E60; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:33:20 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390433608; bh=6anljAwd0RpOFK5r6H6nhnM2i3BDpAEXzFm7XQxgNlE=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=it08zBLpyq8ngmff9gROfJnZ+P9v1Hsnyh0YbNpJP12MhTGWfs3gfuQzt28DRXl3a UyKNdIoNETX4UtCytDRBzccRVC4Z6zDdoEWP2hhrCHxtJv+vsQit5hnAWy2XtMSvHX 3jtamaeZ7eRA9I1JT+uegvpPVU0c2N4CJC8iGZYI= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" , "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin \(Xin\)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:03:13 +0530 Message-ID: <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8WibJ5fX0vYar0RiW+sWrLkC2s3gBPpZOA Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020208.52E05548.00C0, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.138 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:33:31 -0000 Hi Thiru, I agree with you that PCP is yet another alternative. It is not clear to = me from your mail whether you are fine with the word "TURN" in the = requirement draft to refer PCP as a solution in the later stage. It is confusing to me when I'm discussing about WebRTC FW proposal to = others as they assume that it is "TURN" as per requirement draft. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:48 PM > To: Magnus Westerlund; Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, > Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > > Westerlund > > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM > > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer > Holmberg'; > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases- > and- > > requirements-12 > > > > Hi Partha, > > > > > > On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > > Hi Magnus, > > > > > > I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server > in > > > the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the > > requirement. > > > > Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this = should > be > > changed to use media relay. > > > > > > > > ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever > > > browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. > > > > My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I > believe you > > may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But ICE > TCP per > > say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of > ICE-TCP > > is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the ICE > > agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you still > need a > > framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that > carries > > the RTP or DTLS packets. > > > > TURN server is good in case > > > of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred > approach > > > for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is = discussed > in > > > PNTAW as > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. > So, > > > I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this > mail > > > thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias > discussion. > > Please let me know your opinion on the same. > > > > I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the > use-case > > and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in > the use-case > > and requirements draft: > > > > This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with > > rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served = as > a > > tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. = It > is > > proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols = and > > solutions developed by the WG. > > > > So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to > solution > > focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have a > number of > > solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. >=20 > Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for example = by > using PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp- > 00#section-3.1) >=20 > -Tiru. >=20 > > > > So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to > determine > > if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or not. > > > > Cheers > > > > Magnus Westerlund > > > > = --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > > = --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > = --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From tireddy@cisco.com Wed Jan 22 18:54:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09341A018A for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:54:23 -0000 Changes proposed by Chenxin look good. -Tiru. > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Parthasarathi = R > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:49 AM > To: 'Magnus Westerlund'; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer > Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > I support Chenxin proposal. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:50 PM > > To: Chenxin (Xin); Hutton, Andrew; Christer Holmberg; Parthasarathi R; > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > > requirements-12 > > > > WG, > > > > It has been quite some time since the WG last call ended and a new > > revision was submitted. As Document Shepherd I want to push this > > document to publication request. > > > > Chenxin proposed below three different sets of changes to the document. > > Does the WG support making these changes? Please indicate within the > > next week if you support or want to reject these changes. > > > > Thanks > > > > Magnus > > > > > > On 2013-10-17 12:23, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you means F29 not F27:). When I read it , I realize that > > there > > > is cross and ambiguous between 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 > > > > > > > > > > > > More details: > > > > > > > > > > > > The topic of 3.3.2 is "Simple Video Communication Service, > > > *NAT/FW* that blocks UDP". But in the description and requirement, > > > only *NAT* > > is > > > considered. > > > > > > The topic of 3.3.3 is "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that > > > only allows http", But only *http proxy* deployed scenarios is > > considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are other usecases " FW block UDP, incoming TCP, Http > > allowing > > > FW without http proxy deplolyed under the permission of FW policy" , > > > which is lost in the description. If we need consider these usecases > > , I > > > suggest to make some change to the description. > > > > > > > > > > > > Proposal 1 : > > > > > > > > > > > > add FW related words to section 3.3.2 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 3.3.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks UDP > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.1. Description > > > > > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > > Communication > > > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > > the > > > > > > users is behind a NAT*/FW* that blocks UDP traffic. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.3.2.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > > > > > F29 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > > > data to a peer in the presence of NATs *and FWs* that > > > > > > block UDP traffic ,* when FW policy allows WebRTC > > traffic*. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Proposal 2: If the" Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > > > case is impliedly included in F29. I suggest to change the topics of > > > 3.3.3 to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows > > > traffic via a http proxy". So the 3.3.3 is a specific case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Proposal 3: If " Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" > > case > > > need to be explicitly mentioned. I suggest to add some descriptions > > to 3.3.3 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 3.3.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows http > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.3.3.1. Description > > > > > > > > > > > > This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > > Communication > > > > > > Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of > > the > > > > > > users is behind a http allowing FW or a FW that only allows > > traffic > > > via a HTTP Proxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.3.3.2. Additional Requirements > > > > > > > > > > > > F37 The browser must be able to send streams and > > > > > > data to a peer in the presence of http allowing FWs or > > > FWs that only > > > > > > allows traffic via a HTTP Proxy, when FW policy > > > > > > allows WebRTC traffic. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Xin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Magnus Westerlund > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From martin.thomson@gmail.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A881A0157 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ryLtbuy9xLfU for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x234.google.com (mail-we0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36A01A0101 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f180.google.com with SMTP id q59so700184wes.25 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=GXSF34mSlGN2EgUn/v9ejCgPOatvKhNmTLuH7Bvgeoc=; b=laIoqk1XJTTM4mmoumpspku48+9Yw94xl6lL10nSXEFakewbeYSj+mHlGbxdSbKV4V TncE1KVE7VXBprPn9/F1HsfwKt9/95rN5DUtzQm9XSbvnLlyEP9oEa70mOaa61+97p9h gvgm7I5JSxVDj+JVBROMpllm+prDHVUsaG12PDWyFQYeHvfuIhzhObJLnKCgc2/PHK6U qb6H/Do1XfKhbtFp8vaLQtpv98BqrdLspCq6c+QwxWMHLDxkMQ4UvPNRej+htw9VfuE4 Srx5J46LyvSAWexqE5pYyu6a188aJbjcCZ4l+kuRcFeG/Cx/Y9oni4dBPgg37+AaPFJP PJaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.187.83 with SMTP id fq19mr2641870wic.58.1390450399483; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.105.132 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428F30C@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428F30C@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:13:19 +0100 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:13:23 -0000 On 22 January 2014 18:01, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > I am still referring to off-path attacker only who can sniff packets and spoof IP address but cannot modify or consume packets. How exactly is this attacker able to generate a valid heartbeat? From tireddy@cisco.com Wed Jan 22 21:35:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548F31A01C0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dRjfZt14MkBn for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30331A003E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:35:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5387; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390455322; x=1391664922; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=U0lgoesz2OZhtEP26w/wTehTbWhaSNYjhBmwGlzP6LU=; b=SQa8soFzVJB6WfLhZ1Rx8c9yHjrUru7ivMIvk3dfivLdZD87S/Lb4VM/ ZqrJbLmGzdvinkWBGtMjrNJGQZ5GOoVG+M7ntWZBDXWlEFI6yqaw4XnQI 647dUzEHudC7MlH6MgwY70dsYEC2KEZwmyhnJayhvkzeajb1uxj7lBr7r Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkFAJip4FKtJV2a/2dsb2JhbABbgww4VrsjT4EVFnSCJQEBAQMBAQEBCVsHBhECBAEIEQQBAQEKHSIMCxQJCQEEARIIARKHYggNxFwXBI4nAQEeMwuDHoEUBIkPkEWQZoMtgXE5 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,704,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="298936239" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2014 05:35:22 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com [173.37.183.78]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0N5ZLVH007473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:35:21 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.227]) by xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:35:21 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Parthasarathi R , "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Thread-Index: Ac8X/OXReGyIdmBHRwm8gpvGRFWztQ== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:35:21 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428FC2B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.75.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:35:25 -0000 Hi Partha, Inline > -----Original Message----- > From: Parthasarathi R [mailto:partha@parthasarathi.co.in] > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:03 AM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); 'Magnus Westerlund'; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; > 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Thiru, >=20 > I agree with you that PCP is yet another alternative. It is not clear to = me from > your mail whether you are fine with the word "TURN" in the requirement > draft to refer PCP as a solution in the later stage. >=20 > It is confusing to me when I'm discussing about WebRTC FW proposal to > others as they assume that it is "TURN" as per requirement draft. I don't see any specific mention in the requirements section that TURN is t= he only way to solve the WebRTC FW traversal problem. =20 -Tiru. >=20 > Thanks > Partha >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:48 PM > > To: Magnus Westerlund; Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, > > Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > > requirements-12 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > > > Westerlund > > > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM > > > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer > > Holmberg'; > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases- > > and- > > > requirements-12 > > > > > > Hi Partha, > > > > > > > > > On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > > > Hi Magnus, > > > > > > > > I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server > > in > > > > the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the > > > requirement. > > > > > > Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this > > > should > > be > > > changed to use media relay. > > > > > > > > > > > ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever > > > > browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. > > > > > > My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I > > believe you > > > may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But ICE > > TCP per > > > say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of > > ICE-TCP > > > is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the ICE > > > agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you still > > need a > > > framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that > > carries > > > the RTP or DTLS packets. > > > > > > TURN server is good in case > > > > of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred > > approach > > > > for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is > > > > discussed > > in > > > > PNTAW as > > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. > > So, > > > > I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this > > mail > > > > thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias > > discussion. > > > Please let me know your opinion on the same. > > > > > > I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the > > use-case > > > and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in > > the use-case > > > and requirements draft: > > > > > > This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with > > > rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served > > > as > > a > > > tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. > > > It > > is > > > proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols and > > > solutions developed by the WG. > > > > > > So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to > > solution > > > focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have a > > number of > > > solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. > > > > Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for example > > by using PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp- > > 00#section-3.1) > > > > -Tiru. > > > > > > > > So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to > > determine > > > if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or not. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Magnus Westerlund > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > - > > > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > - > > > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > - > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From tireddy@cisco.com Thu Jan 23 00:55:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7E71A033D for ; 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkFAMLX4FKtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABbgwyBDoJ+uHQYdxZ0giUBAQEEIxFFDAYBCBEEAQEBAgIGDg8DAgQfERQBCAkBBA4FCIdpAxGof5Y+DYVWF4Epiz+BYzENEoJXNYEUAQOWNo5JhTuDLYIq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,705,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="299242258" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2014 08:55:17 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0N8tH5p024165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 08:55:17 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.227]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:55:16 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Consent alternative Thread-Index: Ac8YGNNvQEj6UNaRTY2EX96oDrnrWQ== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 08:55:16 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428FEA5@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.75.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Consent alternative X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 08:55:20 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBNYXJ0aW4gVGhvbXNvbiBbbWFp bHRvOm1hcnRpbi50aG9tc29uQGdtYWlsLmNvbV0NCj4gU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIEphbnVhcnkg MjMsIDIwMTQgOTo0MyBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGlydW1hbGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5ICh0aXJlZGR5KQ0KPiBD YzogTXV0aHUgQXJ1bCBNb3poaSBQZXJ1bWFsIChtcGVydW1hbCk7IEN1bGxlbiBKZW5uaW5ncyAo Zmx1ZmZ5KTsNCj4gcnRjd2ViQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbcnRjd2ViXSBDb25z ZW50IGFsdGVybmF0aXZlDQo+IA0KPiBPbiAyMiBKYW51YXJ5IDIwMTQgMTg6MDEsIFRpcnVtYWxl c3dhciBSZWRkeSAodGlyZWRkeSkNCj4gPHRpcmVkZHlAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJ IGFtIHN0aWxsIHJlZmVycmluZyB0byBvZmYtcGF0aCBhdHRhY2tlciBvbmx5IHdobyBjYW4gc25p ZmYgcGFja2V0cyBhbmQgc3Bvb2YNCj4gSVAgYWRkcmVzcyBidXQgY2Fubm90IG1vZGlmeSBvciBj b25zdW1lIHBhY2tldHMuDQo+IA0KPiBIb3cgZXhhY3RseSBpcyB0aGlzIGF0dGFja2VyIGFibGUg dG8gZ2VuZXJhdGUgYSB2YWxpZCBoZWFydGJlYXQgPw0KDQpJbiB0aGUgZXhhbXBsZSBhdHRhY2sg eW91IGhhZCBtZW50aW9uZWQsIEF0dGFja2VyIEIga25vd3MgYm90aCB0aGUgbWFzdGVyIHNlY3Jl dCBhbmQgU1RVTiBzaG9ydC10ZXJtIHVzZXJuYW1lL3Bhc3N3b3JkLiBJdCB3aWxsIHNuaWZmIHRo ZSBoZWFydGJlYXQgcmVxdWVzdCBzZW50IGJ5IEEsIHNwb29mIElQIGFkZHJlc3Mgb2YgQyBhbmQg c2VuZCB2YWxpZCBoZWFydGJlYXQgcmVzcG9uc2UuIFNhbWUgcHJvYmxlbSBleGlzdHMgd2l0aCBT VFVOIGNvbnNlbnQuIA0KDQotVGlydS4NCg== From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 01:19:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380311A0363 for ; 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Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:19:22 +0100 Message-ID: <52E0DE9A.1090405@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:19:22 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrIJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7sew+CDK5sULVY+6+d3YHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGZf797MXrJetuPdav4FxqkQXIyeHhICJxIf5DUwQtpjEhXvr 2boYuTiEBA4xSvz794QFwlnOKPHqwBdWkCpeAW2Jqf+ngtksAqoSFyZ9B7PZBCwkbv5oZAOx RQWCJW5Ne8AOUS8ocXImyCBODhEBdYnLDy+AxYUFdCVOvF4CZHMAbRaX6GkMAgkzC+hJTLna wghhy0s0b53NDGILAa1taOpgncDIPwvJ1FlIWmYhaVnAyLyKkT03MTMnvdxoEyMwmA5u+a26 g/HOOZFDjNIcLErivB/eOgcJCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbFF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYHRdaKSSMWuhfSqv Vl+8j8H0G5snxKY+TEosCTIufhrByNLkLBCq1+Whz59T9Xm3vo8eT6f0RplEBu1LS2/0/NVP 3PtjorT0Re2IdyIe7Zn6Z5kXnt5T1hhsJX8mMXOyEyMHM8OqHTt2fY/asLg4cLeIru6Hjysm GidlR31yzTjrnimyfh2HEktxRqKhFnNRcSIA+EYPIvQBAAA= Subject: [rtcweb] Proposal for RTCWEB Milestone Update X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:19:28 -0000 WG, Below you will find a proposal for updating the WGs milestones. This include creating two new milestones and deleting one. Regarding the dates, they are though targets, and might not be reached. But to reach our end of year goal for the core documents we see a need to push hard. You can also see the order in which we believe the work can be completed in. Please provide any feedback on these milestones by 6th of February. So each milestone we have i listed below with its current date and the proposed new one. Old: Oct 2012 New: March 2014 Send Security and Privacy Problem Statement (draft-ietf- rtcweb-security) to IESG for publication as Informational draft-ietf-rtcweb-security Old: Oct 2012 New: Feb 2014 Complete Overview (and hold for dependency resolution) (draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview) draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview Old: New milestone New: Dec 2014 Send Overview (after dependencies are ready) to IESG for publication as Applicability Statement draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview Note: This is a new milestone created to show when we believe the overview truly can be published, i.e. at the end of the set of core documents. Old: Oct 2012 New: Jan 2014 Send Use Cases document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- requirements) to IESG for publication as Informational draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements Old: Jan 2013 New: April 2014 Send Media Transport (draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage Old: Jan 2013 New: Jun 2014 Send Security Solution (draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch Old: Jan 2013 New: Sep 2014 Send Signalling Negotiation and NAT Traversal (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep Old: Jan 2013 New: April 2014 Audio Processing and Audio Codecs (draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio Jan 2013 New: Dec 2014 Video Processing and Video Codecs (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard Video Processing and Video Codecs (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard Comment: Needs editing to remove double listing. I still think we will need to produce this document. Old: May 2013 New: Delete Send Quality of Service markings of RTCWeb packets (draft- ietf-rtcweb-qos) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard Note: We will delete this milestone for now. If there is need for an RTCWEB document, we will resurrect it. We expect TSVWG to adopt their part of this soon. Old: Mar 2014 New: Sep 2014 Send STUN Usage for Consent Freshness to IESG for publication as proposed standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness Old: May 2103 New: May 2014 Send Data Stream Transport for non-media data (draft-ietf- rtcweb-data-channel) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol Old: New milestone New: Sep 2014 Send Specification of Transport Protocols and their NAT Traversal to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ibc@aliax.net Thu Jan 23 01:31:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF591A0374 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vW1btexZw-vS for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-f171.google.com (mail-qc0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AA21A0362 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id n7so2106006qcx.16 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UoepqFOmAu4wL9AHGE9izS5SGR59FMmgPp3qXZdw1Y4=; b=mHaFxs6k1XefLFzqLKDTMFvOkBN3ndLN5I1yQI0lcQLymKDdTTPAh6+UWYVD/lhhSy CAgfqzrnm3pvaUH3jB92/mSzKyAshg3bPvwOau+v9KtQzGiKHqUf5ttzOxdkyilRHgRN kRIDNYi7QJS0C9HTzF536/EJZOLDnfMZus9nTycgcOSHPUp3WZe5Yr15hJRWy8JPWelW gyXidsmJUCRnzSF9mY/gr2y5FRupO30kKg4GYLleghUzBpQXusDF1GfvA6MMMxHrns9q HNg5Y5XWUfGwA3Umui5lF/j68ZstifDwhlsmf3FsU1cvGPoqwqS0ZWBBZoCeRvBs5St+ zWzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnSkx8dAuWUHC2kiz/Ncg+1GhhTr3aSAZYPT0ed4BfwtkjXWE5BNS6RnYhhsA5t2rbYw9ie X-Received: by 10.140.96.17 with SMTP id j17mr9400252qge.112.1390469494276; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:31:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:31:14 +0100 Message-ID: To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:31:36 -0000 2014/1/22 Paul Kyzivat : > I=C3=B1aki, > > I've read what you read below, but I cannot figure out what you want the = O/A > to contain, and what you want it to mean. Hi Paul, My proposal is basically that the SDP offer send by Peer-A contains N m lines (meaning N tracks) which are just about sending RTP from Peer-A to Peer-B. The SDP answer contains M m lines (N can be different than M), which are just about sending RTP from Peer-B to Peer-A. Of course this breaks the SDP negotiation model, specially the step in which codecs are negotiated. That should be done in some other way which does not rely in mathing m lines. Yes, this is too complex and would end in something totally different to what SDP is, so please let's forget this subject and sorry for the noise. P.S. Said that I don't like Unified Plan at all since it relies on 1 m line =3D 1 media track, and makes negotiation with a conference server really complex (explained in my mails above). Best regards. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 01:41:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252B81A0093 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:41:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HQ9QGfldHbX for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FBB1A0391 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:41:07 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-24-52e0e3b298a6 Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F4.DC.10875.2B3E0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:41:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:41:04 +0100 Message-ID: <52E0E3B0.5050901@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:41:04 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6mxw+CDOZsVLCYvs/GYu2/dnYH Jo9zDe/ZPZYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlTHzxWTWgq38FXPmfWZsYJzE08XIySEhYCLx /sgCNghbTOLCvfVANheHkMAhRok7S0+yQzjLGSWePvgNVsUroC0xZe5JJhCbRUBVYuG0G8wg NpuAhcTNH41gNaICwRK3pj1gh6gXlDg58wkLiC0iYCNxY+IEsF5mAXWJO4vPgdUICzhIXLl1 mgli2QoWiUWXPoAlOAUCJSZPPg9kcwCdJy7R0xgE0asp0br9NzuELS/RvHU22A1CQLc1NHWw TmAUmoVk9SwkLbOQtCxgZF7FyJ6bmJmTXm64iREYqge3/NbdwXjqnMghRmkOFiVx3g9vnYOE BNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MM7kl2iQ8c2TyY0+OHVbfnwm//Vi02IpxfN7HH0P HZL0enx5asQm/eyt/JOD7q5ff2bCxQ3Vr5YeMXzrly9esbpZt7n4yDGWvx2dF7zuyUl6/Xki w91460bG9uxA9fu5T67WWEzKt73BwiumxHZYkCe2YtnXrxxzrgednRP623uOxvycJ6dyNyqx FGckGmoxFxUnAgAfaZwBIwIAAA== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:41:10 -0000 Iñaki, (As WG Chair) I don't see these posting as productive for the WG. We have a consensus on using SDP and Offer/Answer. This WG can't change the Offer/Answer process. That is done in MMUSIC. So please stop wasting peoples time with proposals that doesn't fit the limits established by consensus decisions. Regards Magnus On 2014-01-23 10:31, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > 2014/1/22 Paul Kyzivat : >> Iñaki, >> >> I've read what you read below, but I cannot figure out what you want the O/A >> to contain, and what you want it to mean. > > Hi Paul, > > My proposal is basically that the SDP offer send by Peer-A contains N > m lines (meaning N tracks) which are just about sending RTP from > Peer-A to Peer-B. > The SDP answer contains M m lines (N can be different than M), which > are just about sending RTP from Peer-B to Peer-A. > > Of course this breaks the SDP negotiation model, specially the step in > which codecs are negotiated. That should be done in some other way > which does not rely in mathing m lines. > > Yes, this is too complex and would end in something totally different > to what SDP is, so please let's forget this subject and sorry for the > noise. > > P.S. Said that I don't like Unified Plan at all since it relies on 1 m > line = 1 media track, and makes negotiation with a conference server > really complex (explained in my mails above). > > Best regards. > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From harald@alvestrand.no Thu Jan 23 02:03:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977861A03C5 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TsgGf0ilmFtk for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467511A03CA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0C039E1C0 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:03:19 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJPlBApuBax5 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:03:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7842839E127 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:03:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E0E8DD.6060106@alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:03:09 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <52E0DE9A.1090405@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52E0DE9A.1090405@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for RTCWEB Milestone Update X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:03:15 -0000 Mostly, this looks realistic. One place where I'm more optimistic: On 01/23/2014 10:19 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Old: New milestone > New: Sep 2014 > Send Specification of Transport Protocols and their NAT Traversal to > IESG for publication as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports > Given that there has been fairly small controversies here, I feel that this should be doable in the same timeframe as rtp-usage - that is, April. If the chairs' decision is that the normative parts of -firewalls- needs to go into -transport-, I would aim this for September. Note: There is no mention of -firewalls- in the milestones suggested. What's the chairs' thinking on this? Harald From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 02:14:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8421A024C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:14:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nckIjMBzfAim for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D471A0355 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-c9-52e0eba0f278 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 25.B4.04853.0ABE0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:14:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:14:56 +0100 Message-ID: <52E0EB9F.7000907@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:14:55 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Alvestrand , References: <52E0DE9A.1090405@ericsson.com> <52E0E8DD.6060106@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <52E0E8DD.6060106@alvestrand.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6C1w+CDB4uNLM41tfFZrH2Xzu7 A5PHlQlXWD2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx4ZtKwUnBisf9m1kbGCfxdTFyckgImEis f/GdEcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DACUaJhQtvMkE4yxklVrXcYeli5ODgFdCW2HPQHKSBRUBV4vGW xWDNbAIWEjd/NLKB2KICwRK3pj1gB7F5BQQlTs58wgJiiwjYS1yc8xLMFhawknjXd4IJZKSQ gI/Er2awezgFdCVurrvPDhKWEBCX6GkMAgkzC+hJTLnawghhy0s0b53NDGILAR3T0NTBOoFR cBaSZbOQtMxC0rKAkXkVo2RxanFxbrqRgV5uem6JXmpRZnJxcX6eXnHqJkZgwB7c8ttoB+PJ PfaHGKU5WJTEea+z1gQJCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbFF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYLQ66b02fbnVzgU/Xl5h Cq95vuThG7nyh29STmvGGaxo8/DOf5XDFjOtW7X89+RzWgy1IqsyFOXXH2Kssp25UGyJzKqF EgujLmlt8z3eMGOPTEOX4Ruvh7f/SWe7P32+2yhiZVWD4lsh2SeTpzIaTJjakv/4pG7QlhX9 rYe2yvTcW6/17aXl7VtKLMUZiYZazEXFiQDCwK0RJgIAAA== Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for RTCWEB Milestone Update X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:15:00 -0000 On 2014-01-23 11:03, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > Mostly, this looks realistic. > > One place where I'm more optimistic: > > On 01/23/2014 10:19 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Old: New milestone >> New: Sep 2014 >> Send Specification of Transport Protocols and their NAT Traversal to >> IESG for publication as Proposed Standard >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports >> > > Given that there has been fairly small controversies here, I feel that > this should be doable in the same timeframe as rtp-usage - that is, April. That would be great. I am a bit hesitant to put to many documents into this time-frame. In addition I wonder if we are certain that we have ensure that all pieces that are required to be part of this document are known already in April. I am mostly thinking of the ongoing discussions around NAT traversal protocols. However, if you like to have a shorter target date, what about June? That should allow both RTP parts, the data channel parts and this NAT/FW traversal protocol stuff to settled with no big open ends. > > If the chairs' decision is that the normative parts of -firewalls- needs > to go into -transport-, I would aim this for September. > > Note: There is no mention of -firewalls- in the milestones suggested. > What's the chairs' thinking on this? Sorry, this I realize is one editing I should have done, but forgot to do before sending this out to the WG. I was considering to clarify that it specifies the protocols used for NAT/FW traversal. But after discussion the chairs did come to conclusion to keep the milestone simple. Thus the proposal for milestone text should be: Send Specification of Transport Protocols to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 02:17:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F1E1A039D for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:17:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fHnpaTs6JuE for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590441A024C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:17:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-c8-52e0ec3d41be Received: from ESESSHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1E.B4.10875.D3CE0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:17:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.114]) by ESESSHC001.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.21]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:17:33 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= To: Parthasarathi R , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" , Magnus Westerlund , "'Chenxin (Xin)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , Christer Holmberg , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Thread-Index: Ac8WibJ5SktWxckav0akJ56IFdfzqQ== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:17:33 +0000 Message-ID: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7dmwdBBid3s1ts21BqcfNKL6PF 5E99rBZr/7WzW5zYvY3RgdVjyu+NrB4tR96yeixZ8pPJ48P8L+we23seswSwRnHZpKTmZJal FunbJXBlLP53hb3glX7FtYsN7A2Mm9S7GDk5JARMJA7v6WWFsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCIUeL4 iftgCSGBJYwSzet8QWw2gUCJrfsWgBWJCNxhkri/di47SEJYIELi9/57QA0cQIlIicvHzUHC IgJ6EnMOXQWbwyKgKvH1wk8WEJtXwFdiac9bRoj5ZRJd376B1TACHfH91BomEJtZQFzi1pP5 TBDHCUgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B/U0YoSO8+2M0PU60ncmDqFDcLWlli28DUzxC5BiZMzn7BMYBSZ hWTsLCQts5C0zELSsoCRZRUje25iZk56ueEmRmC0HNzyW3cH46lzIocYpTlYlMR5P7x1DhIS SE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXA2DXr5rVzV2t0mu+3sq/8d674d8Ch/IXuX27np7sI flaUjnvqvslS+YTW27M3jds8lje7Xa7bJCmfo6T/RW3tUc3NjOsezmX0UYj27IsXqmk2jute teHUzKxNM1X7bZ1cKi3FTL57f/366kt84My3d3kllr6+Oldye0r9xGme115MiwnVsdXQU2Ip zkg01GIuKk4EAC/87uxkAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:17:38 -0000 On 2014-01-23 00:33, Parthasarathi R wrote:=0A= > Hi Thiru,=0A= >=0A= > I agree with you that PCP is yet another alternative. It is not clear to = me=0A= > from your mail whether you are fine with the word "TURN" in the requireme= nt=0A= > draft to refer PCP as a solution in the later stage.=0A= >=0A= > It is confusing to me when I'm discussing about WebRTC FW proposal to oth= ers=0A= > as they assume that it is "TURN" as per requirement draft.=0A= =0A= In the early phases of the use-case draft we did not use the words=0A= "ICE", "STUN" or "TURN" - things were stated more technology neutral.=0A= =0A= But at some stage it was pretty clear that ICE was the solution the WG=0A= was going for; and at the same time many wanted to have ICE specific=0A= requirements (such as "The browser must be able to use several STUN and=0A= TURN servers") included.=0A= =0A= So we made the change and started talking about ICE, STUN and TURN in=0A= the document (but note that in the description it is still said=0A= "Assuming that ICE will be used").=0A= =0A= I am not super happy about having the requirements depend on choosing a=0A= certain solution, but at the same time I think that ICE is a corner=0A= stone so for me it is livable to have in the document.=0A= =0A= Stefan=0A= >=0A= > Thanks=0A= > Partha=0A= >=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=0A= >> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:48 PM=0A= >> To: Magnus Westerlund; Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton,=0A= >> Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-= =0A= >> requirements-12=0A= >>=0A= >>> -----Original Message-----=0A= >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus=0A= >>> Westerlund=0A= >>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM=0A= >>> To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer=0A= >> Holmberg';=0A= >>> rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-=0A= >> and-=0A= >>> requirements-12=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Hi Partha,=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>> On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote:=0A= >>>> Hi Magnus,=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server=0A= >> in=0A= >>>> the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the=0A= >>> requirement.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this should= =0A= >> be=0A= >>> changed to use media relay.=0A= >>>=0A= >>>> ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism whenever=0A= >>>> browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP.=0A= >>> My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I=0A= >> believe you=0A= >>> may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But ICE=0A= >> TCP per=0A= >>> say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of=0A= >> ICE-TCP=0A= >>> is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the ICE=0A= >>> agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you still=0A= >> need a=0A= >>> framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that=0A= >> carries=0A= >>> the RTP or DTLS packets.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> TURN server is good in case=0A= >>>> of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred=0A= >> approach=0A= >>>> for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is discussed=0A= >> in=0A= >>>> PNTAW as=0A= >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html.=0A= >> So,=0A= >>>> I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this=0A= >> mail=0A= >>>> thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias=0A= >> discussion.=0A= >>> Please let me know your opinion on the same.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing the=0A= >> use-case=0A= >>> and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in=0A= >> the use-case=0A= >>> and requirements draft:=0A= >>>=0A= >>> This document was developed in an initial phase of the work with=0A= >>> rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served as= =0A= >> a=0A= >>> tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. It= =0A= >> is=0A= >>> proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols and= =0A= >>> solutions developed by the WG.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to=0A= >> solution=0A= >>> focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have a=0A= >> number of=0A= >>> solution parts that exist beyond the requirements.=0A= >> Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for example by= =0A= >> using PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp-=0A= >> 00#section-3.1)=0A= >>=0A= >> -Tiru.=0A= >>=0A= >>> So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this to=0A= >> determine=0A= >>> if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or not.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Cheers=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Magnus Westerlund=0A= >>>=0A= >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= =0A= >> -=0A= >>> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM=0A= >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= =0A= >> -=0A= >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287=0A= >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A= >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A= >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= =0A= >> -=0A= >>> _______________________________________________=0A= >>> rtcweb mailing list=0A= >>> rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > rtcweb mailing list=0A= > rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb=0A= >=0A= =0A= From ibc@aliax.net Thu Jan 23 06:15:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB991A00CA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wu6lXlkhyOG6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-f180.google.com (mail-qc0-f180.google.com [209.85.216.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D171A00BE for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id i17so2538329qcy.11 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=G2JNPfOl+EnWKTHuuiU1R4ubRxTTZy7tXz6OMuCSP5A=; b=IdgDCNlPh+Hq3tnOb/KJSwn/zLtXOr4nHaQKsJoPLBFgtfFmMNzKQiXdwPIxplFWX9 e4R7+DxTYTBxfNDSWn582eW1QwBpUDOJTdXy5kfeOA83u0W9mAwes8Zfnx3v8mzb9c4D Oc2JjZyRSHovLavLIIRzTfEabGKAo6xVj2sMdze5lebwJna65qNbNIrOzFZFyunZMObl qrdCnnkTKijqItnkIrMKVeCCZCPX0MtHycxs0jObX/9e+bbrhJX1kYyAnlw83CV052Bo q7ieB6sXtYIJTy7iZk/YjWIQSrHR40VvpZAbjC7POs/FYxPEr+fSUJFKDskIRKI6krbx YDRw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnzzwcZ1eUtAKvadJ2hKPIZUod7C3vixuCE52wiAU5n5lUmqRpoD2XKvFQq0CqQ9R/VOmQ/ X-Received: by 10.229.213.194 with SMTP id gx2mr11853019qcb.16.1390486521186; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.101.232 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:15:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E0E3B0.5050901@ericsson.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> <52E0E3B0.5050901@ericsson.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:15:01 +0100 Message-ID: To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:15:23 -0000 2014/1/23 Magnus Westerlund : > I=C3=B1aki, > (As WG Chair) > > I don't see these posting as productive for the WG. We have a consensus > on using SDP and Offer/Answer. This WG can't change the Offer/Answer > process. That is done in MMUSIC. > > So please stop wasting peoples time with proposals that doesn't fit the > limits established by consensus decisions. Hi Magnus. Currently I was not proposing to drop SDP but to modify the current SDP spec for WebRTC (taking into account that AFAIK it is not yet fulfilled). The feature I was asking for is not feasible with SDP so I was certainly wrong, but it was not my intention to reopen the debate about SDP yes or not. Best regards. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From internet-drafts@ietf.org Thu Jan 23 07:22:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837471A000F; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvBpNEONUCLi; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4E01A000A; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:22:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.90.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140123152212.12332.28792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:22:12 -0800 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:22:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W= orking Group of the IETF. Title : WebRTC Security Architecture Author : Eric Rescorla Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2014-01-23 Abstract: The Real-Time Communications on the Web (RTCWEB) working group is tasked with standardizing protocols for enabling real-time communications within user-agents using web technologies (commonly called "WebRTC"). This document defines the security architecture for The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From ekr@rtfm.com Thu Jan 23 07:24:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8C81A001E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:24:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zolJAQ4413XL for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-f170.google.com (mail-ve0-f170.google.com [209.85.128.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915C41A000F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ve0-f170.google.com with SMTP id cz12so1186571veb.15 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=O+0zdd+Ctoq0BvZ+yvUmP4zrjU6lf2isJ2wKzpWTAJQ=; b=fcYTfXffRwGpN5CIzeUzQ67+XdOQHC8Llpx279eD849sa3gMSznOLVx2ZW0b7CksDB Bq2n9fLkPVjOLHx2mygnBnPlocYq8S1J9WgBBr7nBH6WMRJHpiiAU1sQsTUB7prP0doJ ZcE5VLVzK7wleMkN9uziUxI9dq5sO/Eg1w5VGR9FakGDZ/xOpY1xmCpV7tM4bvau+RTs 6E2Ucc1uujW3EHWyg7lXp8OhNyaRgW1ZOwS+PYf6n/tRLju/guouBhstownP2Nc+0jVi RzZju7tccAd1JlI8xPOns0oN/7YuprBkK/zMrM3PNHakbunh26Glj2ruW5FnR1DgpG+6 rg2A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQla/VhET7uQpmjuf8b9SZ35iciDxTIW6z8RUFi6l38vdbxVOzJ+LWW8q2P5JIsgJpCJ9RA8 X-Received: by 10.221.39.138 with SMTP id tm10mr4827131vcb.7.1390490665448; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:24:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.106.162 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:23:45 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [173.38.208.169] In-Reply-To: <20140123152212.12332.28792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20140123152212.12332.28792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:23:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:24:29 -0000 Note that this version contains a proposed set of MTI/SHOULD cipher suites. I think these match the WG sentiment as I heard it, but they have never been subject to list consensus. [[OPEN ISSUE: Are these the right cipher suites?]] All implementations MUST implement the following two cipher suites: TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and the DTLS-SRTP protection profile SRTP_AES128_CM_HMAC_SHA1_80. Implementations SHOULD favor cipher suites which support PFS over non-PFS cipher suites. Comments welcome. -Ekr On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:22 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : WebRTC Security Architecture > Author : Eric Rescorla > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08.txt > Pages : 42 > Date : 2014-01-23 > > Abstract: > The Real-Time Communications on the Web (RTCWEB) working group is > tasked with standardizing protocols for enabling real-time > communications within user-agents using web technologies (commonly > called "WebRTC"). This document defines the security architecture > for > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-08 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From fluffy@cisco.com Thu Jan 23 09:02:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1DF1A0055 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tkxg1KTWnw59 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49A21A0006 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:02:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=598230; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1390496545; x=1391706145; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=lniDMVXfFr5QoDYwkMyRoFEF1JhepktvjreGpVSI9S8=; b=l+oFKJyfpOyYSjK4abJYmWKEy5Nu6DKCFkoLeJzlDlwbklCIlWegIeYC WcU3i+UjZatAQARpFZbxlp8o5VybuU0iOdX60SXb0w9IE6hy0UmiHkie9 1wDe5UOPYSsfFrdaylNx3nTmUAa4PWaAoKuWRVHK1fDy++LIdWx7Xlc02 Q=; X-Files: Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx, Copy of response spreadsheet.pdf : 68979, 367213 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAEdK4VKtJXG//2dsb2JhbADCEw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,706,1384300800"; d="xml'?xlsx'72,48?scan'72,48,72,48,208?rels'72,48,72,48,208?pdf'72,48,72,48,208"; a="299063405" Received: from rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com ([173.37.113.191]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2014 17:02:24 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com [173.37.183.81]) by rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0NH2ObY011075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:24 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.76]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:02:23 -0600 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: copy of straw poll results Thread-Index: AQHPGFzi9J3WGHbqV0KO8GuXTPYGjw== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:23 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_AF85667F7588472AAFB73F884117F448ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rtcweb] copy of straw poll results X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:30 -0000 --_003_AF85667F7588472AAFB73F884117F448ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4F9E0C41CC72B54498245596AA922033@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So we have a copy in the archive, here are the poll results=20 --_003_AF85667F7588472AAFB73F884117F448ciscocom_ Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet; name="Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx" Content-Description: Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx"; size=68979; creation-date="Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:23 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:23 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQC1FZPfbgEAAJgFAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIooAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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14.03.0123.003; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:02:29 -0600 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: copy of straw poll results Thread-Index: AQHPGFzmGAv6ai+pVUevAGbHn6ps5g== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:29 +0000 Message-ID: <9F09DB88-F290-45B7-88B4-96DB36F51C4B@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_9F09DB88F29045B788B496DB36F51C4Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rtcweb] copy of straw poll results X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:34 -0000 --_003_9F09DB88F29045B788B496DB36F51C4Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2104E75BB58FA445A062931A010178CB@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So we have a copy in the archive, here are the poll results=20 --_003_9F09DB88F29045B788B496DB36F51C4Bciscocom_ Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet; name="Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx" Content-Description: Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Copy of response spreadsheet.xlsx"; size=68979; creation-date="Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:29 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:02:29 GMT" Content-ID: <71E2D9527CB1E24787B8C179D521D023@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQC1FZPfbgEAAJgFAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIooAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093EF1A01B3 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:14:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIpZDOzlqOVM for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us2.mailhostbox.com [70.87.28.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6E71A01DC for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.166.149.63]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3EC1F63934E; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:13:58 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390526048; bh=eXSI2c/Q288D/I24+SM7Ed8WzwbRBViDxfZqpKiv2O8=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nCoZ/mkUNajilQlbnoOewYo2g4c3eYDI81OWBALta7RlmQ7xEs3qOSmuh6vjhE00G hcuMWnPwFfFBM8pjOPN5XCRPWEeDQzJS9aqAbYTVyfZvDFqHWGLUZMVLL0C994Xw6b Ci3MfIGupyfES98skUhFQuxkrEZgzfir4L/7mhcA= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK'?= , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" , "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin \(Xin\)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:43:51 +0530 Message-ID: <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8WibJ5SktWxckav0akJ56IFdfzqQCFGydg Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020208.52E1BE60.0080, ss=2, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=2, cld=1, fgs=64 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Suspect X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 64 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.142 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:14:13 -0000 Hi Stefan, Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page w.r.t ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great in case "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below mentioned = snippet of the draft. =20 Sec 3.3.4.1 the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN and = TURN servers (via the app) to the browser; Sec 3.3.5.1 It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the enterprise = with network specific STUN and TURN servers. The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network specific STUN = and TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the web = application. Sec 4.2 F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN and TURN servers ---------------------------------------------------------------- F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN servers to use are supplied by other entities than via the web application (i.e. the network provider). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix A A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to specify several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that "Firewall traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN, ICE-TCP, TURN over WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Stefan H=E5kansson LK [mailto:stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:48 PM > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'; Magnus = Westerlund; > 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; Christer Holmberg; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > On 2014-01-23 00:33, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > Hi Thiru, > > > > I agree with you that PCP is yet another alternative. It is not = clear > to me > > from your mail whether you are fine with the word "TURN" in the > requirement > > draft to refer PCP as a solution in the later stage. > > > > It is confusing to me when I'm discussing about WebRTC FW proposal = to > others > > as they assume that it is "TURN" as per requirement draft. >=20 > In the early phases of the use-case draft we did not use the words > "ICE", "STUN" or "TURN" - things were stated more technology neutral. >=20 > But at some stage it was pretty clear that ICE was the solution the WG > was going for; and at the same time many wanted to have ICE specific > requirements (such as "The browser must be able to use several STUN = and > TURN servers") included. >=20 > So we made the change and started talking about ICE, STUN and TURN in > the document (but note that in the description it is still said > "Assuming that ICE will be used"). >=20 > I am not super happy about having the requirements depend on choosing = a > certain solution, but at the same time I think that ICE is a corner > stone so for me it is livable to have in the document. >=20 > Stefan > > > > Thanks > > Partha > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:48 PM > >> To: Magnus Westerlund; Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, > >> Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > >> Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases- > and- > >> requirements-12 > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > >>> Westerlund > >>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM > >>> To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer > >> Holmberg'; > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases- > >> and- > >>> requirements-12 > >>> > >>> Hi Partha, > >>> > >>> > >>> On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > >>>> Hi Magnus, > >>>> > >>>> I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay server > >> in > >>>> the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the > >>> requirement. > >>> > >>> Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this > should > >> be > >>> changed to use media relay. > >>> > >>>> ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism = whenever > >>>> browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. > >>> My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I > >> believe you > >>> may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But > ICE > >> TCP per > >>> say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part of > >> ICE-TCP > >>> is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the > ICE > >>> agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you > still > >> need a > >>> framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams that > >> carries > >>> the RTP or DTLS packets. > >>> > >>> TURN server is good in case > >>>> of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred > >> approach > >>>> for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is > discussed > >> in > >>>> PNTAW as > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. > >> So, > >>>> I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in this > >> mail > >>>> thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias > >> discussion. > >>> Please let me know your opinion on the same. > >>> > >>> I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing = the > >> use-case > >>> and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text in > >> the use-case > >>> and requirements draft: > >>> > >>> This document was developed in an initial phase of the work = with > >>> rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really served > as > >> a > >>> tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so far. > It > >> is > >>> proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the protocols > and > >>> solutions developed by the WG. > >>> > >>> So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to > >> solution > >>> focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we have > a > >> number of > >>> solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. > >> Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for = example > by > >> using PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp- > >> 00#section-3.1) > >> > >> -Tiru. > >> > >>> So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this = to > >> determine > >>> if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or > not. > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> > >>> Magnus Westerlund > >>> > >>> = ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >> - > >>> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > >>> = ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >> - > >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > >>> = ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >> - > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> rtcweb mailing list > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >=20 > =3D From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Thu Jan 23 17:27:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951011A02E9 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zSDyF9BApy2m for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us3.mailhostbox.com [70.87.28.151]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240471A027A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.166.149.63]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9C46386913D; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:27:04 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390526835; bh=Q8r2u58y9gApvQUgEP8MBOc82ivS1RNE6o4bl/pnwyU=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gMMdthgwJmX9tJTuqx2pDW43ODVVrImKbSuC7qgRatcfC8CiLqJ/lhAjEm/gZHAhT z9vtJwVQU/9o6oioEPaod3eROm7wIsYlZ7B8QY40QG/6lf6cZIpfcUyIjJsd1i157w Gv8NG0tQ9vc176KQfM4FK7eJ20D8vPQOCdl/zy44= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Parthasarathi R'" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK'?= , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" , "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'Chenxin \(Xin\)'" , "'Hutton, Andrew'" , "'Christer Holmberg'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:56:56 +0530 Message-ID: <004701cf18a3$66248900$326d9b00$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8WibJ5SktWxckav0akJ56IFdfzqQCFGydgAAE7U6A= Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020203.52E1C173.004A, ss=2, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=2, cld=1, fgs=64 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Suspect X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 64 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.151 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:27:19 -0000 Hi Stefan, The word has to be "NAT/Firewall traversal" instead of "Firewall = traversal". Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Parthasarathi R [mailto:partha@parthasarathi.co.in] > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 6:44 AM > To: 'Stefan H=E5kansson LK'; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'; 'Magnus > Westerlund'; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; > 'rtcweb@ietf.org' > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Hi Stefan, >=20 > Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page > w.r.t ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great > in case "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below > mentioned snippet of the draft. >=20 > > Sec 3.3.4.1 > the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN and > TURN servers (via the app) to the browser; >=20 > Sec 3.3.5.1 > It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the enterprise > with network specific STUN and TURN servers. >=20 > The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network specific > STUN and TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the > web application. >=20 >=20 > Sec 4.2 >=20 > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > and TURN servers > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > servers to use are supplied by other entities > than via the web application (i.e. the network > provider). > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Appendix A >=20 >=20 > A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to specify > several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. > >=20 > Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that "Firewall > traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN, ICE-TCP, TURN over > WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. >=20 > Thanks > Partha >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stefan H=E5kansson LK = [mailto:stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com] > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:48 PM > > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'; Magnus > Westerlund; > > 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; Christer Holmberg; = rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases- > and- > > requirements-12 > > > > On 2014-01-23 00:33, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > > Hi Thiru, > > > > > > I agree with you that PCP is yet another alternative. It is not > clear > > to me > > > from your mail whether you are fine with the word "TURN" in the > > requirement > > > draft to refer PCP as a solution in the later stage. > > > > > > It is confusing to me when I'm discussing about WebRTC FW proposal > to > > others > > > as they assume that it is "TURN" as per requirement draft. > > > > In the early phases of the use-case draft we did not use the words > > "ICE", "STUN" or "TURN" - things were stated more technology = neutral. > > > > But at some stage it was pretty clear that ICE was the solution the > WG > > was going for; and at the same time many wanted to have ICE specific > > requirements (such as "The browser must be able to use several STUN > and > > TURN servers") included. > > > > So we made the change and started talking about ICE, STUN and TURN = in > > the document (but note that in the description it is still said > > "Assuming that ICE will be used"). > > > > I am not super happy about having the requirements depend on = choosing > a > > certain solution, but at the same time I think that ICE is a corner > > stone so for me it is livable to have in the document. > > > > Stefan > > > > > > Thanks > > > Partha > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:48 PM > > >> To: Magnus Westerlund; Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, > > >> Andrew'; 'Christer Holmberg'; rtcweb@ietf.org > > >> Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use- > cases- > > and- > > >> requirements-12 > > >> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Magnus > > >>> Westerlund > > >>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 3:29 PM > > >>> To: Parthasarathi R; 'Chenxin (Xin)'; 'Hutton, Andrew'; = 'Christer > > >> Holmberg'; > > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use- > cases- > > >> and- > > >>> requirements-12 > > >>> > > >>> Hi Partha, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On 2014-01-18 19:18, Parthasarathi R wrote: > > >>>> Hi Magnus, > > >>>> > > >>>> I have trouble in the usage of TURN instead of media relay > server > > >> in > > >>>> the requirement document as TURN is the solution and not the > > >>> requirement. > > >>> > > >>> Noted, I like to get more input from the WG if they think this > > should > > >> be > > >>> changed to use media relay. > > >>> > > >>>> ICE-TCP and TURN server are two different relay mechanism > whenever > > >>>> browser is not possible to transport the media in UDP. > > >>> My personal opinion is that the above is incorrect statement. I > > >> believe you > > >>> may be able to realize a higher layer gateway using ICE-TCP. But > > ICE > > >> TCP per > > >>> say is not a relay mechanism. To my understanding the core part > of > > >> ICE-TCP > > >>> is the establishment of an end-to-end TCP connection between the > > ICE > > >>> agents. I also note that with our current transport stacks you > > still > > >> need a > > >>> framing on top of the TCP connection to realize the datagrams > that > > >> carries > > >>> the RTP or DTLS packets. > > >>> > > >>> TURN server is good in case > > >>>> of browser-to-browser scenario wherein ICE-TCP is preferred > > >> approach > > >>>> for browser-to-webrtc gateway. The related mail thread is > > discussed > > >> in > > >>>> PNTAW as > > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail- > archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00185.html. > > >> So, > > >>>> I preferred to have the separate requirement as discussed in > this > > >> mail > > >>>> thread which leads to the conclusion as part of PNTAW alias > > >> discussion. > > >>> Please let me know your opinion on the same. > > >>> > > >>> I personally are uncertain if there exist any need for changing > the > > >> use-case > > >>> and requirements draft. I would like to note the following text > in > > >> the use-case > > >>> and requirements draft: > > >>> > > >>> This document was developed in an initial phase of the work > with > > >>> rather minor updates at later stages. It has not really > served > > as > > >> a > > >>> tool in deciding features or scope for the WGs efforts so = far. > > It > > >> is > > >>> proposed to be used in a later phase to evaluate the = protocols > > and > > >>> solutions developed by the WG. > > >>> > > >>> So, I believe the basic NAT/FW requirement exist. It might be to > > >> solution > > >>> focused in its description. However, it is also clear that we > have > > a > > >> number of > > >>> solution parts that exist beyond the requirements. > > >> Yes, there could other solutions to solve the FW problem for > example > > by > > >> using PCP (http://tools.ietf.org/search/draft-penno-rtcweb-pcp- > > >> 00#section-3.1) > > >> > > >> -Tiru. > > >> > > >>> So, I still see need WG participants to provide feedback on this > to > > >> determine > > >>> if there exist any consensus to modify the use-case document or > > not. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers > > >>> > > >>> Magnus Westerlund > > >>> > > >>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > >> - > > >>> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > > >>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > >> - > > >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: > > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > >>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > >> - > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> rtcweb mailing list > > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > =3D From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Fri Jan 24 06:18:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F2D1A04A2 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Km8nXDS6KXDI for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA67C1A04A0 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from porto.nomis80.org (ringo.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:c000:3e97:eff:fe0b:dd8a]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B265400A8 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:18:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:18:24 -0500 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:18:28 -0000 Le 2014-01-23 20:13, Parthasarathi R a écrit : > Hi Stefan, > > Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page w.r.t > ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great in case > "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below mentioned snippet > of the draft. > > > Sec 3.3.4.1 > the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN and TURN > servers (via the app) to the browser; > > Sec 3.3.5.1 > It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the enterprise with > network specific STUN and TURN servers. > > The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network specific STUN and > TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the web application. > > > Sec 4.2 > > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > and TURN servers > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > servers to use are supplied by other entities > than via the web application (i.e. the network > provider). > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Appendix A > > > A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to specify > several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. > > > Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that "Firewall > traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN, ICE-TCP, TURN over > WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. FWIW, I would completely disagree with that change. It makes no sense to me. Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Fri Jan 24 08:23:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAB71A03FF for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:23:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iBamtSV9WV1 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us2.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9794B1A0037 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.202.145]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9496D639192; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:23:37 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390580619; bh=zjobdB/M04fvzv52KlwkBc+5ss4DPi+fBYETQY6ySQo=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=eWrN2SM8ZIV4BEjNgwCDbF81ttMlxbG5zT1CvpvhJwj0b7IV/aIOp6OAwpMMon/VP 4yuBkmVbaAs8mUUJqj8JyWVL2kYmWXGgeBlIzJS25rWXEl1HpH2bEg8awXI3GPCXrD SHdE160dhHkx0h5IuN4Bv5EeZkrlpcfMpU+soEpg= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Simon Perreault'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:53:28 +0530 Message-ID: <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8ZDytg8iMHIFZPTqOCVAuS6GLn1QAELjvQ Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020206.52E2938C.0040, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.142 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:23:43 -0000 Simon, I could not understand how does it make sense for you to refer "TURN" in = the requirement whereas it implies "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over = WebSocket" in the solution. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon > Perreault > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 7:48 PM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Le 2014-01-23 20:13, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > > Hi Stefan, > > > > Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page > w.r.t > > ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great in > case > > "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below mentioned > snippet > > of the draft. > > > > > > Sec 3.3.4.1 > > the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN > and TURN > > servers (via the app) to the browser; > > > > Sec 3.3.5.1 > > It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the enterprise > with > > network specific STUN and TURN servers. > > > > The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network specific > STUN and > > TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the web > application. > > > > > > Sec 4.2 > > > > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > > and TURN servers > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > > servers to use are supplied by other entities > > than via the web application (i.e. the network > > provider). > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Appendix A > > > > > > A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to > specify > > several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. > > > > > > Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that = "Firewall > > traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN, ICE-TCP, TURN > over > > WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. >=20 > FWIW, I would completely disagree with that change. It makes no sense > to me. >=20 > Simon > -- > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Fri Jan 24 08:30:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCBB1A0026 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:30:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPL-TfSyG89p for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3641A0010 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from porto.nomis80.org (ringo.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:c000:3e97:eff:fe0b:dd8a]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F613403F8; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:34 -0500 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , rtcweb@ietf.org References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:38 -0000 Le 2014-01-24 11:23, Parthasarathi R a écrit : > I could not understand how does it make sense for you to refer "TURN" in the > requirement whereas it implies "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over WebSocket" > in the solution. I understand the text you're suggesting to mean that WebRTC clients would be required support at least one in the set { TURN, ICE-TCP, TURN over WebSocket, PCP }. This would be broken. A client that chooses to support, for example, only PCP would be ridiculously broken. All clients MUST support TURN as a base traversal mechanism. Other mechanisms are icing on the cake. I'm fairly sure this is not what you were suggesting though, since that would be so obviously broken. That's why I said that your suggestion makes no sense to me. Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From karl.stahl@intertex.se Fri Jan 24 08:32:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D420A1A0023 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:32:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6glJTjohwcXz for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDDD1A0010 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201401241732236173; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:32:23 +0100 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Parthasarathi R'" , "'Simon Perreault'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:32:22 +0100 Message-ID: <0b4201cf1921$dbcc2cc0$93648640$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8ZDytg8iMHIFZPTqOCVAuS6GLn1QAELjvQAABi4aA= Content-Language: sv Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:32:31 -0000 Where can I find: " "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over WebSocket" in the solution. " ? (Haven't followed for a while.) /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Parthasarathi R Skickat: den 24 januari 2014 17:23 Till: 'Simon Perreault'; rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 Simon, I could not understand how does it make sense for you to refer "TURN" in = the requirement whereas it implies "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over = WebSocket" in the solution. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon=20 > Perreault > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 7:48 PM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Le 2014-01-23 20:13, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > > Hi Stefan, > > > > Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page > w.r.t > > ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great in > case > > "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below mentioned > snippet > > of the draft. > > > > > > Sec 3.3.4.1 > > the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN > and TURN > > servers (via the app) to the browser; > > > > Sec 3.3.5.1 > > It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the enterprise > with > > network specific STUN and TURN servers. > > > > The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network specific > STUN and > > TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the web > application. > > > > > > Sec 4.2 > > > > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > > and TURN servers > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > > servers to use are supplied by other entities > > than via the web application (i.e. the network > > provider). > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Appendix A > > > > > > A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to > specify > > several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. > > > > > > Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that=20 > > "Firewall traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN,=20 > > ICE-TCP, TURN > over > > WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. >=20 > FWIW, I would completely disagree with that change. It makes no sense=20 > to me. >=20 > Simon > -- > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Fri Jan 24 09:01:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DB91A0047 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.267 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4AXXrr04ZAIk for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us1.mailhostbox.com [69.93.141.228]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575011A0044 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.202.145]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2335619086FE; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:01:18 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390582882; bh=glVOKUU8L/syKApiNVA3ypMeSdLugQ6coNDIiY1ltzk=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=F7mJAaznCHQ/N1Hq0AESOBdOtzs7RI59PewO9CrjegfP1FOxy0ghAvCLN/wbJfXp8 +Dq1grLy3r8DEYQqMgZbCeQ6o04nIX6IyDJzPBKThDuYRM+9BPn45LAGJZvkvqiJaG qP3TCtfnQjA/ctx/Y6rusGNwvJhBBIBp5bPKzCGw= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Karl Stahl'" , "'Simon Perreault'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <0b4201cf1921$dbcc2cc0$93648640$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: <0b4201cf1921$dbcc2cc0$93648640$@stahl@intertex.se> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 22:31:05 +0530 Message-ID: <001e01cf1925$e4d3e4d0$ae7bae70$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8ZDytg8iMHIFZPTqOCVAuS6GLn1QAELjvQAABi4aAAAGje4A== Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020207.52E29C62.0288, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.138 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:01:26 -0000 Hi Karl, Please look into draft-hutton-rtcweb-nat-firewall-considerations-03.txt = for the initial understanding. The discussion about RTCWeb firewall/NAT is = going on in Pntaw mailing alias. Hope you agree that TURN does not mean "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over WebSocket" in the requirement level after reading the documents. Thanks Partha =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@intertex.se] > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 10:02 PM > To: 'Parthasarathi R'; 'Simon Perreault'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: SV: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Where can I find: " "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over WebSocket" in the > solution. " ? > (Haven't followed for a while.) >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Parthasarathi R > Skickat: den 24 januari 2014 17:23 > Till: 'Simon Perreault'; rtcweb@ietf.org > =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 >=20 > Simon, >=20 > I could not understand how does it make sense for you to refer "TURN" > in the > requirement whereas it implies "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over > WebSocket" > in the solution. >=20 > Thanks > Partha >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon > > Perreault > > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 7:48 PM > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > > requirements-12 > > > > Le 2014-01-23 20:13, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > Thanks a lot for providing the background. We are in the same page > > w.r.t > > > ICE. My concern is w.r.t TURN word usage only. It will be great in > > case > > > "TURN" is replaced with "Firewall traversal" in the below = mentioned > > snippet > > > of the draft. > > > > > > > > > Sec 3.3.4.1 > > > the service provider would like to be able to provide several STUN > > and TURN > > > servers (via the app) to the browser; > > > > > > Sec 3.3.5.1 > > > It must be possible to configure the browsers used in the > enterprise > > with > > > network specific STUN and TURN servers. > > > > > > The RTCWEB functionality will need to utilize both network = specific > > STUN and > > > TURN resources and STUN and TURN servers provisioned by the web > > application. > > > > > > > > > Sec 4.2 > > > > > > F31 The browser must be able to use several STUN > > > and TURN servers > > > = --------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > > > servers to use are supplied by other entities > > > than via the web application (i.e. the network > > > provider). > > > = --------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > > > > Appendix A > > > > > > > > > A22 The Web API must provide means for the application to > > specify > > > several STUN and/or TURN servers to use. > > > > > > > > > Also, Could you plese add the statement in the line of that > > > "Firewall traversal mechanism in this document shall be TURN, > > > ICE-TCP, TURN > > over > > > WebSocket, PCP" to provide more clarity. > > > > FWIW, I would completely disagree with that change. It makes no = sense > > to me. > > > > Simon > > -- > > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Fri Jan 24 09:14:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8741A04C9 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:14:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WcGZZRrwsDE7 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us3.mailhostbox.com [70.87.28.154]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A78B1A04DA for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.178.202.145]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 416D18693B0; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:14:18 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390583661; bh=IHHENcy4pWN45er35ldVVjQ6dtyFLAC14/FNHsvhaTA=; h=From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FDfzKrYFnVNeLJtfNBFxowaIyFrGAQ8e54T6ymQkYwd4cEAIwV9fzPidm0+Sd74Hc EPfbBOBUUu1cKduPj/ZUiK8PIvkzZXH6r7Gd4SpCal0Wh2kc0DTG+jc5YVWUuFT+hn meZzuJahA2mUFwwhEiFnBMLqCg7BDTR6LtktbVEA= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Simon Perreault'" , References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 22:44:10 +0530 Message-ID: <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8ZIZ5zIuRwcoSGRberYRyGaiJyfwABEiAg Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020205.52E29F6D.018E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.151 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:14:32 -0000 Simon, Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, they = come to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used as = the mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a discussion going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change.=20 Let us discuss in PNTAW alias which Firewall/NAT mechanisms have to be = used by WebRTC client, WebRTC gateway/server (Sec 4.3 of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) and not as part of the requirement draft. Thanks Partha =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:simon.perreault@viagenie.ca] > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 10:01 PM > To: Parthasarathi R; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements-12 >=20 > Le 2014-01-24 11:23, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > > I could not understand how does it make sense for you to refer = "TURN" > in the > > requirement whereas it implies "PCP" or "ICE-TCP" or "TURN over > WebSocket" > > in the solution. >=20 > I understand the text you're suggesting to mean that WebRTC clients > would be required support at least one in the set { TURN, ICE-TCP, = TURN > over WebSocket, PCP }. This would be broken. A client that chooses to > support, for example, only PCP would be ridiculously broken. All > clients > MUST support TURN as a base traversal mechanism. Other mechanisms are > icing on the cake. >=20 > I'm fairly sure this is not what you were suggesting though, since = that > would be so obviously broken. That's why I said that your suggestion > makes no sense to me. >=20 > Simon > -- > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Fri Jan 24 10:17:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55571A013F for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:17:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vfd2A3j5WW17 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BCD1A00DF for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from porto.nomis80.org (ringo.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:c000:3e97:eff:fe0b:dd8a]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76AC0403F8; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 13:17:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 13:17:38 -0500 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , rtcweb@ietf.org References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 18:17:42 -0000 Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a écrit : > Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, they come > to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other > mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used as the > mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a discussion > going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see your proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From randell-ietf@jesup.org Fri Jan 24 15:48:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF171A01F5 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:48:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RpvF0NgbluZI for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11C31A01E3 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-173-49-144-199.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([173.49.144.199]:3183 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6qTc-000EPf-7y for rtcweb@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:47:57 -0600 Message-ID: <52E2FB99.2090609@jesup.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 18:47:37 -0500 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <10390_1389365676_52D009AC_10390_2407_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A06CBE540@PEXCVZYM14.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52D0222F.4010006@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B112238@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D42709.1070500@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B113664@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D4721F.5030204@bbs.darktech.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B1148DF@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52D49D3E.5090201@bbs.darktech.org> <52D54680.1090704@bbs.darktech.org> <20140114144706.GU3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> In-Reply-To: <20140114144706.GU3245@audi.shelbyville.oz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: randell@jesup.org X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] There are no legacy WebRTC devices (Was: Comment on Straw Poll replies) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 23:48:00 -0000 On 1/14/2014 9:47 AM, Ron wrote: > On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 09:15:28AM -0500, cowwoc wrote: >> I stand corrected: >> http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html >> >> Both H.264 and VP8 encoder/decoders are supported. Thanks for catching that. >> >> I'm still curious if anyone has seen a public API for hardware >> encoding/decoding of video outside of Android... > The more interesting question to me would be if someone could give us an > estimate of what proportion of Android devices actually have either ASIC > hardware support for both of these, or sufficiently capable CPUs to do > them in software? Note that "an encoder" != "a useful realtime interactive encoder". (Though many may be - but how do you tell?) Encoders are almost required for local camera video capture and recording, but those don't need to have the sort of controls or options that a realtime interactive codec does. Since these are standard blocks, they may have all the right knobs, but how well is that tested? (Obviously this applies to all HW codecs, except that no one is using VP8 for camera video currently.) Another caveat: HW encoders/decoders may have a limit on the number of streams they can process (and that limit may well be 1). That means that simulcast and multi-stream conference reception might need to use SW codecs for some streams. (Or so I've been told by people working with OMX; I assume I understood correctly.) -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com From cb.list6@gmail.com Fri Jan 24 16:52:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DABD1A025D for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UXp6IP9ULSHm for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22e.google.com (mail-wg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2841A0244 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id x12so3599594wgg.1 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=msKHmihqv421jpq0nQXUu1RFSiELjU3eKuhdZ7gZy/s=; b=epeC+I56KAHB4W8CsGWeDCDOlgKgPnFyjOoWZlIA19HafTn8b4KKTW/41LBzaFDhjw aRScuXMnWKabqDZqF/R5wB4nsnc/uMkZbo5DSK04ZxnA0YP7DGk8F0x4vZZioqVjGKfH 1NO74SnNDYtD+WRLZM4c3M6QWrlGI8JNyEz6RUZ82aGDmgWz1oJVI4YgHUG8ifQJnMQm ifHSyVu53YA9mAKkPpqNsRx7y4rlEMfjc1EF5G2CqK03tnlWYvmhnb6z7qLJmLv7W8Gt fybD8g2y3CY7LWw1qJN7LBi8mhs1UcN/6/iTRYdLJ3q/nnXhBh/L+L3kqTQVCdmgtIC5 1oPw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.2.11 with SMTP id 11mr74973wjq.82.1390611139703; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.133.169 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.133.169 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:52:19 -0800 Message-ID: From: Cb B To: Simon Perreault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a875e00b9a904f0c0e33b Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 00:52:23 -0000 --047d7b3a875e00b9a904f0c0e33b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" wrote: > > Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > >> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, they come >> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other >> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used as the >> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a discussion >> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. > > > I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see your proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: > > "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." > > +1 for the above text. CB > Simon > -- > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --047d7b3a875e00b9a904f0c0e33b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" <simon.perreault@viagenie.ca> wrote: >
    > Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit :
    >
    >> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, = they come
    >> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not othe= r
    >> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be= used as the
    >> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a disc= ussion
    >> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change.
    >
    >
    > I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see yo= ur proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply:
    >
    > "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRT= C endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms."
    >
    >

    +1 for the above text.

    CB

    > Simon
    > --
    > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca
    > NAT64/DNS64 open-source =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
    > STUN/TURN server =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
    > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --047d7b3a875e00b9a904f0c0e33b-- From partha@parthasarathi.co.in Sat Jan 25 08:46:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A63C1A0294 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 08:46:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMxVqIdoQ79a for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 08:46:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mailhostbox.com (outbound-us3.mailhostbox.com [70.87.28.153]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C0F1A003F for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from userPC (unknown [122.172.203.180]) (Authenticated sender: partha@parthasarathi.co.in) by smtp.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 01193868CAE; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:46:24 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=parthasarathi.co.in; s=20120823; t=1390668389; bh=Ok9UOVHLBNTmvaBTWo/5/fR82k1ZnJSjsLx9mA//YMU=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Gx/k8mJO1ehpfJWdEAad6/TssQSqcF2Q/NRPkTWL/HI/ZIOTSmT4aDy+0Ta2yCedX yYxek5aNhjFGsQpu2kgTNq3leqT4Y2p8ebr5USsFwvupLTdtF+wyfgctjt6Frne1PQ LCTDUZI7Ke3JC+gd81Vgdkpt+GxbLTbcLgkG3KmU= From: "Parthasarathi R" To: "'Cb B'" , "'Simon Perreault'" References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 22:16:14 +0530 Message-ID: <001701cf19ec$f99791b0$ecc6b510$@co.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF1A1B.134FCDB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8ZZ7Ny5kA1i047TzKQusAUHYEHIwAgUgUw Content-Language: en-us X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020208.52E3EA65.0041, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CTCH-SenderID: partha@parthasarathi.co.in X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalMessages: 1 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSpam: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalSuspected: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalBulk: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalConfirmed: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalRecipients: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-TotalVirus: 0 X-CTCH-SenderID-BlueWhiteFlag: 0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 70.87.28.151 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:46:34 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF1A1B.134FCDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Simon, =20 Thanks for your understanding about my firewall/NAT related problem statement in this draft.=20 =20 I have proposed the firewall/NAT related text by which the specific mechanism is not highlighted in the requirement document as there is no = WG consensus for any of the mechanism including TURN. It is possible to = argue hypothetically in PNTAW alias that PCP is the only mechanism required in WebRTC endpoint. Also, I=92m more interested in WebRTC gateway/server = (Sec 4.3. of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) requirements wherein it is not required to support TURN and the related mail thread = is http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00181.html.=20 =20 IMO, my proposed text without mentioning any firewall/NAT mechanism in = the requirement document helps to move forward without depend on the = solution discussion in PNTAW alias. =20 Thanks Partha =20 From: Cb B [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22 AM To: Simon Perreault Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org; Parthasarathi R Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 =20 On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" = wrote: > > Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit : > >> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, = they come >> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other >> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used = as the >> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a = discussion >> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. > > > I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see your proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: > > "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." > > +1 for the above text.=20 CB > Simon > --=20 > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF1A1B.134FCDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Simon,

     

    Thanks for your understanding about my firewall/NAT = related problem statement in this draft.

     

    I have proposed the firewall/NAT related text by which = the specific mechanism is not highlighted in the requirement document as there is no = WG consensus for any of the mechanism including TURN. It is possible to argue = hypothetically in PNTAW alias that PCP is the only mechanism required in WebRTC = endpoint. =A0=A0Also, I’m more interested in WebRTC gateway/server (Sec 4.3. of = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) requirements wherein it is not required to support TURN and the related = mail thread is = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00181.html. =

     

    IMO, my proposed text without mentioning any firewall/NAT = mechanism in the requirement document helps to move forward without depend on the = solution discussion in PNTAW alias.

     

    Thanks

    Partha

     

    From:= Cb B [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]
    Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22 AM
    To: Simon Perreault
    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org; Parthasarathi R
    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12

     


    On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" <simon.perreault@viagenie.ca> wrote:
    >
    > Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a =E9crit :
    >
    >> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement = document, they come
    >> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not = other
    >> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be = used as the
    >> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a discussion
    >> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change.
    >
    >
    > I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see = your proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply:
    >
    > "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a = WebRTC endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms."
    >
    >

    +1 for the above text.

    CB

    > Simon
    > --
    > DTN made easy, lean, and smart -->     http://postellation.viagenie.ca<= /a>
    > NAT64/DNS64 open-source        -->     http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
    > STUN/TURN server               = --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
    > _______________________________________________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF1A1B.134FCDB0-- From rachel.dvori@gmail.com Mon Jan 27 07:53:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5E21A028F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:53:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_MhUDiSXetO for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x243.google.com (mail-we0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::243]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849A11A028A for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f195.google.com with SMTP id x55so2056219wes.10 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:52:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=KJSD2tLT7buhwxEJEklF2ghBeNOKGYCs/sZ1IAVIkF0=; b=mrQPcDSMzi/TFw2mXgqBXs+yArOyZeaQpFo8GB/FgyknYRNIshkR7JfDMsnA8B7NWv rnXzmKo6B9CKF6Xl3QzLIeUC8Zm22yDljiagjB7E11TcOS1HsN9NQLnRATk8Rqo8wVsR Zuu5EMQOz6xFnItRn01gA7wgg39xZIbB60wd6xFwF4j7CN65pVpkZAQL+u0+cJsFocAO FmIyUr24jHGlBIA5xTu3qxGVQGMtOI2vdI7TQH71hH7qirTsCjgFVMFgA9apqs700GFj ew15MqNzHsqJJgoCAdB5CU4uDOHReoCx+v4wiSaMfC+lmGeGkv11Q/rRVqL13fDvlRuB OmzA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.88.8 with SMTP id bc8mr12750233wib.14.1390837975934; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.48.51 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:52:55 +0200 Message-ID: From: Rachel Dvori To: rtcweb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442836a7eecaf04f0f5b31b Subject: [rtcweb] Fwd: inconsistency in drafts: rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:55:57 -0000 --f46d0442836a7eecaf04f0f5b31b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The basic question is: - In WebRTC offer, do we *always* have to include both attributes of rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ? (even if we do not have any feedback msg to send ?) When looking into the draft of : rtcweb-rtp-usage It is indicated that both below are MANDATORY (MUST). Regarding *Reduced Size RTCP:* Support for non- compound RTCP feedback packets [RFC5506] is REQUIRED , but MUST be negotiated using the signalling channel before use. Regarding *RTCP feedback:* For WebRTC use, the Extended Secure RTP Profile for RTCP-Based Feedback (RTP/SAVPF) [RFC5124 ], MUST be implemented. =85. =85.This builds on the basic =85=85 the RTP profile for RTCP-based feedback (RTP/AVPF) [RFC4585 ], =85. >From above, one can conclude that the SDP of an offer *MUST* include *both*= : *- **a=3D rtcp-fb* *- **a =3D rtcp-rsize * %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% When looking into: draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-05 (page 24) It can be understood that only rtcp-rsize is MUST to be included in the offer (and rtcp-fb is not mandatory to be included in the offer) Below is quote from that dratft: - For *each supported* RTCP feedback mechanism, an "a=3Drtcp-fb"= =85 (My Remark: so if there is no support, it is not mandatory to add it) - An "a=3Drtcp-rsize" line, as specified in [RFC5506], Section 5 . R-11 [RFC4585 ] MUST be implemented to signal RTCP based feedback. R-13 [RFC5506 ] MUST be implemented to signal reduced-size RTCP messages. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% And last draft: draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp-03 It indicates that: A typical =85 communication session can be characterized as below: - Provides RTCP based feedback mechanisms, It does not mention that rtcp-rsize is MUST and it is does not appear in all examples of SDP=92s So there is inconsistency between the drafts. I would appreciate VERY Much your comment on the first question: In WebRTC offer, do we *always* have to include both attributes of rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ? (even if we do not have any feedback msg to send ?) And if not =96 can anyone provide clarification on what is expected to be = on each SDP offer (even if we do not have fb msg to send, but it can be easily added in a SDP, if needed) With appreciation RD --f46d0442836a7eecaf04f0f5b31b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =

    The basic question is:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 In We= bRTC offer, do we always have to include both attributes of=A0=A0 rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ?=A0 (even if we do not have any feedback m= sg to send ?)

    =A0

    =A0

    =A0

    When looking into the draft of :=A0 rtcweb-rtp-usage

    It is indicated that both below are MANDATORY (MUST).

    =A0

    Regarding Reduced Size RTCP:

    =A0Support for non- compound RTCP feedback packets [RFC5506] is REQUIRED , but MUST be negotiated using the signalling channel before use.=A0

    =A0

    Regarding RTCP feedback:

    =A0

    For WebRTC = use, the Extended=A0 Secure RTP Profile for RTCP-Based Feedback (RTP/SAVPF) [RFC5124], MUST be implemented.=A0 =85.

    =85.This bu= ilds on the basic =85=85 the RTP profile for RTCP-based feedback =A0=A0=A0(RTP/AVPF) [RFC4585], =85.

    =A0

    From above, one can conclude that the SDP of an offer MUST include both:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 a=3D=A0 rtcp-fb<= /span>=A0

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 a =3D rtcp-rsize= =A0=A0=A0

    =A0

    =A0

    =A0

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

    When looking into:=A0=A0 draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-05=A0=A0=A0= =A0 =A0=A0=A0(page 24)

    =A0

    It can be understood that only rtcp-rsize is MUST to be included in the offer (and=A0 rtcp-fb is not = mandatory to be included in the offer)

    =A0

    Below is quote from that dratft:

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 For <= b>each supported RTCP feedback mechanism, an "a=3Drtcp-fb"=85 =A0=A0(My Remark:=A0=A0 so if there is no suppor= t, it is not mandatory to add it)

    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 An "a=3Drtcp-rsize" line, as specified in [RFC5506], Section=A05.

    =A0

    =A0=A0 R-11=A0 =
[RFC4585] MUST be implemented to signal=
 RTCP based feedback.
    =A0=A0 R-13=A0 =
[RFC5506] MUST be implemented to =
signal reduced-size RTCP=A0 messages.
    =A0
    =A0


    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    


    =A0
    And last draft=
: draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp-03
    


    =A0
    It indicates t=
hat:=A0 
    A typical =85 communication session can be characterized as below:
    


    -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Provides RTCP based feed=
back mechanisms,
    


     
    <=
pre style=3D"direction:ltr">=A0
    =

    It does not men=
tion that rtcp-rsize is MUST and it is does not appear in all examples of S=
DP=92s 
    


    =A0
    =A0
    So there is inconsistency between the drafts.


    I would appreciate VERY Much your comment on the first ques=
tion:
    


    =A0In
WebRTC offer, do we always have to include both attributes of=A0=A0 =
rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ?=A0 (even if we do not have any feedback msg to
send ?)
    


    =A0


    And if not =96 =A0can
anyone provide clarification on what is expected to be on each SDP offer (e=
ven if we
do not have fb msg to send, but it can be easily added in a SDP, if needed)=

    


    =A0
    


    With appreciation
    


    RD
    


    =A0
    --f46d0442836a7eecaf04f0f5b31b-- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Mon Jan 27 14:25:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C181A03E1; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:25:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PFUc_ntAO64H; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE151A03D3; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:25:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.90.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:25:21 -0800 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers W= orking Group of the IETF. Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2014-01-27 Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From jmvalin@jmvalin.ca Mon Jan 27 14:33:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796BD1A0358 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:33:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PEdR5x-qAXdn for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F0A1A029E for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (modemcable130.97-201-24.mc.videotron.ca [24.201.97.130]) (Authenticated sender: jvalin@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC22EF2A16; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:33:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52E6DEA3.2060705@jmvalin.ca> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:33:07 -0500 From: Jean-Marc Valin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio@tools.ietf.org References: <52DFE3B9.2050402@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52DFE3B9.2050402@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:35:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:33:13 -0000 Hi Magnus, We just posted a new version of the draft, see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 See more below. On 01/22/2014 10:28 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > 1. Section 3: > o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and a > ptime of 20 - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] > > Especially in regards to amount of data packetized in each RTP payload > this is fairly narrow definition. Wouldn't the interoperability gain to > at least require wider receiver capabilities? Changed this to "any ptime up to 120 ms" to match Opus. > 2. Section 3: > o Telephone Event - [RFC4733] > > Maybe one should be more explicit about which RTP payload format one is > expected to support. As RFC 4733 contains two. Do I assume correctly > that only audio/telephone-event is to be supported? > > In addition considering that this payload format can carry any of the > events listed in the event registry: > http://www.iana.org/assignments/audio-telephone-event-registry/audio-telephone-event-registry.xhtml#audio-telephone-event-registry-1 > > I think the events that an endpoint shall be capable of generating and > consume needs to be explicitly listed. This part was clarified. Let us know if there's any more issue. > 3. Section 4: > > AUTHORS' NOTE: The idea of using the same level as what the ITU-T > recommends is that it should improve inter-operability while at the > same time maintaining sufficient dynamic range and reducing the risk > of clipping. The main drawbacks are that the resulting level is > about 12 dB lower than typical "commercial music" levels and it > leaves room for ill-behaved clients to be much louder than a normal > client. While using music-type levels is not really an option (it > would require using the same compressor-limitors that studios use), > it would be possible to have a level slightly higher (e.g. 3 dB) > than what is recommended above without causing interoperability > problems. > > The WG needs to resolve this Author's note before we can go to WG last > call. I would hope that we would be able to go to WG last call after the > next update. Thus, anyone have feedback on this? If no one have input, I > would suggest that we remove the note and leave the recommendation as it > is. Note removed. I haven't heard of anyone disagreeing so far. > 4. Section 8. > > Can you please be more specific to what is relevant for this document in > regards to the security considerations. I assume confidentiality, source > authentication are the two main issues. Anything else that needs to be > included? Added a link to RFC6562 on the VBR issue and made it clear that encryption and authentication were out of scope here. > 5. Section 10. > > [I-D.ekr-security-considerations-for-rtc-web] needs to be updated to the > latest version. Removed the reference since it wasn't relevant to this draft. Cheers, Jean-Marc From harald@alvestrand.no Mon Jan 27 16:29:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C261A0251 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:29:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S608fupqthug for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EF51A008F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B936139E04C for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:29:53 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwKyXW806ukU for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:29:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2620:0:1000:167d:c550:9ce2:4855:2d11] (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1000:167d:c550:9ce2:4855:2d11]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC3D739E304 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:29:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E6F9F3.8000303@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:29:39 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090802030102030408010200" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: inconsistency in drafts: rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:29:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090802030102030408010200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/27/2014 04:52 PM, Rachel Dvori wrote: > > > The basic question is: > > - In WebRTC offer, do we *always* have to include both > attributes of rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ? (even if we do not have any > feedback msg to send ?) > Not speaking authoritatively, but trying to be of assistance in the interpretation.... I don't quite understand - in which cases would you never, at any time in the future, have any feedback messages to send, and never want the other party to send those messages to you? Remember - RFC 5506 "rtcp-rsize" is about telling the other side that you are capable of receiving those messages, as well as saying that you are capable of sending them. Even if you don't intend to send any reduced-size RTCP, the other party may want to send them. And the negotiation is always about what capabilities are available over the lifetime of the session (until next renegotiation) - not just the situation in the immediate moment. It is also wise to look at "intended status" of messages, and what they call themselves. For draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp, the intended status is Informational, and the introduction says This documents provides an informational reference in describing the role of SDP and Offer/Answer exchange for the most common WebRTC use- cases. Thus, its statements are not normative. It will adapt to other documents. I hope this helps in interpreting the documents. > > > > > > > When looking into the draft of : rtcweb-rtp-usage > > > It is indicated that both below are MANDATORY (MUST). > > > > Regarding *Reduced Size RTCP:* > > Support for non- compound RTCP feedback packets [RFC5506 > ] is REQUIRED , but MUST be > negotiated using the signalling channel before use. > > > > Regarding *RTCP feedback:* > > > > For WebRTC use, the Extended Secure RTP Profile for RTCP-Based > Feedback (RTP/SAVPF) [RFC5124 ], > MUST be implemented. .... > > ....This builds on the basic ...... the RTP profile for RTCP-based > feedback (RTP/AVPF) [RFC4585 ], > .... > > > > From above, one can conclude that the SDP of an offer *MUST* include > *both*: > > *- **a= rtcp-fb** *** > > *- **a = rtcp-rsize * > > > > > > > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > > When looking into: draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-05 > (page 24) > > > > It can be understood that only rtcp-rsize is MUST to be included in > the offer (and rtcp-fb is not mandatory to be included in the offer) > > > > Below is quote from that dratft: > > - For *each supported* RTCP feedback mechanism, an > "a=rtcp-fb"... (My Remark: so if there is no support, it is not > mandatory to add it) > > - An "a=rtcp-rsize" line, as specified in [RFC5506], Section 5 . > > > > R-11 [RFC4585 ] MUST be implemented to signal RTCP based feedback. > R-13 [RFC5506 ] MUST be implemented to signal reduced-size RTCP messages. > > > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > > > And last draft: draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp-03 > > It indicates that: > A typical ... communication session can be characterized as below: > - Provides RTCP based feedback mechanisms, > > > It does not mention that rtcp-rsize is MUST and it is does not appear in all examples of SDP's > > > So there is inconsistency between the drafts. > I would appreciate VERY Much your comment on the first question: > > In WebRTC offer, do we *always* have to include both attributes of > rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ? (even if we do not have any feedback msg to > send ?) > > > > And if not -- can anyone provide clarification on what is expected to > be on each SDP offer (even if we do not have fb msg to send, but it > can be easily added in a SDP, if needed) > > > > With appreciation > > RD > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------090802030102030408010200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 01/27/2014 04:52 PM, Rachel Dvori wrote:


    The basic question is:

    -          In WebRTC offer, do we always have to include both attributes of   rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ?  (even if we do not have any feedback msg to send ?)


    Not speaking authoritatively, but trying to be of assistance in the interpretation....

    I don't quite understand - in which cases would you never, at any time in the future, have any feedback messages to send, and never want the other party to send those messages to you?

    Remember - RFC 5506 "rtcp-rsize" is about telling the other side that you are capable of receiving those messages, as well as saying that you are capable of sending them. Even if you don't intend to send any reduced-size RTCP, the other party may want to send them.

    And the negotiation is always about what capabilities are available over the lifetime of the session (until next renegotiation) - not just the situation in the immediate moment.

    It is also wise to look at "intended status" of messages, and what they call themselves.

    For draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp, the intended status is Informational, and the introduction says
    
   This documents provides an informational reference in describing the
   role of SDP and Offer/Answer exchange for the most common WebRTC use-
   cases.

    Thus, its statements are not normative. It will adapt to other documents.

    I hope this helps in interpreting the documents.


     

     

     

    When looking into the draft of :  rtcweb-rtp-usage

    It is indicated that both below are MANDATORY (MUST).

     

    Regarding Reduced Size RTCP:

     Support for non- compound RTCP feedback packets [RFC5506] is REQUIRED , but MUST be negotiated using the signalling channel before use. 

     

    Regarding RTCP feedback:

     

    For WebRTC use, the Extended  Secure RTP Profile for RTCP-Based Feedback (RTP/SAVPF) [RFC5124], MUST be implemented.  ….

    ….This builds on the basic …… the RTP profile for RTCP-based feedback    (RTP/AVPF) [RFC4585], ….

     

    From above, one can conclude that the SDP of an offer MUST include both:

    -          a=  rtcp-fb 

    -          a = rtcp-rsize   

     

     

     

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

    When looking into:   draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-05        (page 24)

     

    It can be understood that only rtcp-rsize is MUST to be included in the offer (and  rtcp-fb is not mandatory to be included in the offer)

     

    Below is quote from that dratft:

    -          For each supported RTCP feedback mechanism, an "a=rtcp-fb"…   (My Remark:   so if there is no support, it is not mandatory to add it)

    -          An "a=rtcp-rsize" line, as specified in [RFC5506], Section 5.

     

       R-11  [RFC4585] MUST be implemented to signal RTCP based feedback.
       R-13  [RFC5506] MUST be implemented to signal reduced-size RTCP  messages.
     
     

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

     
    And last draft: draft-nandakumar-rtcweb-sdp-03
     
    It indicates that:  
    A typical … communication session can be characterized as below:
    -          Provides RTCP based feedback mechanisms,
     
     
    It does not mention that rtcp-rsize is MUST and it is does not appear in all examples of SDP’s 
     
     
    So there is inconsistency between the drafts.
    I would appreciate VERY Much your comment on the first question:

     In WebRTC offer, do we always have to include both attributes of   rtcp-fb and rtcp-rsize ?  (even if we do not have any feedback msg to send ?)

     

    And if not –  can anyone provide clarification on what is expected to be on each SDP offer (even if we do not have fb msg to send, but it can be easily added in a SDP, if needed)

     

    With appreciation

    RD

     



    _______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    -- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
    --------------090802030102030408010200-- From fluffy@iii.ca Mon Jan 27 21:13:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E091A019B for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:13:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ejJEigi6v5A8 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0DB1A00A7 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FBC4509B6; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:13:11 -0500 (EST) From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:13:09 -0700 Message-Id: To: rtcweb@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Subject: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:13:20 -0000 Dear WG, After reviewing the poll results found here: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf = the chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI = is required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of = options which did not garner significant support; essentially only = options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the = eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the = other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working = group activity or discussion. There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious = support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting = positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half = the participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to = being able to choose between them at this time. =20 The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to = implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 = meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus = its energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the = video document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of = December, but initially without specifying which of the two codecs is = the WG consensus for MTI. When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently = expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory = to implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new = information or working group experience. If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, = 2014 please let us know by February 4. Thank you,=20 Cullen, Magnus, Ted From ekr@rtfm.com Mon Jan 27 22:25:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719511A0228 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IuPe0wn_JuUG for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f44.google.com (mail-pa0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FEB1A019D for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id kq14so6920291pab.31 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=1eqgO2S8QgJG4fPUBcLa+iEnXLHmWa/ffoWSMg/tHVM=; b=Cp6L5/M5RVI7BHJbOkTEJ1BAZuGnd+45tlyHq+9z5QUioXUXN1UbXtHh83yRKGAPFi I4IhsknvmZbubQwGLZu/7+Wn/2XnEJCLBN9qSckGpsue9kvZ61GAv/dNPlWHROvYJw0v MWcuYB07fdGQiQc9JU6MrNnpmng3Zi0sJHPB8hlRECuZ1LMI/L2hPSbsN69H8ZvG3Z6V xRid4E9ekDcLMLDX8zj7JdoBCKwjZPBOS7s9OfXpLCmablGccT0GCBEOX6UapEpt2Tro pv/LnQH5VaSq6pzHxBedhJOJvmKnRtu00IT7BD70xKc0kXoL9Wgn/+HJ662NzmlWnTn5 DRyg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnvwxJkTrDkbJr1d1CkyEwfgSR/UAkYMdvoWbZYhFfGjJWNiC/8T7WX8wW4t+fWzltbGVX3 X-Received: by 10.68.227.36 with SMTP id rx4mr7196555pbc.164.1390890335091; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.116.182.219] (mobile-166-137-213-112.mycingular.net. [166.137.213.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id id1sm38519436pbc.11.2014.01.27.22.25.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:33 -0800 (PST) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39862EFE-7D5A-48C4-BD35-FAE79F1BF6CB@rtfm.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11B554a) From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:25:29 -0800 To: Cullen Jennings Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:25:39 -0000 You didn't ask for support but: +1 > On Jan 27, 2014, at 21:13, Cullen Jennings wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dear WG, >=20 > After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= ive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the worki= ng group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to de= velop. There are a number of options which did not garner significant sup= port; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that t= hey might be the eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do n= ot view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant further wo= rking group activity or discussion. >=20 > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious sup= port for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions a= nd objections, and both have the support of well over half the participants i= n the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose betw= een them at this time. =20 >=20 > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to impl= ement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting= in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy on= completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video document (d= raft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initially wit= hout specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI. >=20 > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expec= t to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imple= ment. This expectation may change, however, based on new information or wor= king group experience. >=20 > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2= 014 please let us know by February 4. >=20 > Thank you,=20 >=20 > Cullen, Magnus, Ted >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From hangzhou.chenxin@huawei.com Mon Jan 27 23:24:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E9E1A025D for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:24:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yZEror30N4on for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556741A01C9 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BCZ87570; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:24:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:23:15 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.33) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:23:45 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.191]) by SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:23:39 +0800 From: "Chenxin (Xin)" To: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll Thread-Index: AQHPG+evtXUPdc5DOUmeehPDjtah75qZuofw Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:23:39 +0000 Message-ID: <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680AAFC5@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.173.17.195] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:24:18 -0000 +1 One thing could be decided by the poll is that the MTI video codec candidat= es are only { H.264, VP8}. Will eliminate many discussions.... Best Regards, Xin=20 >-----Original Message----- >From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings >Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:13 PM >To: rtcweb@ietf.org >Subject: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll > > >Dear WG, > >After reviewing the poll results found here: >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the >chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is requ= ired for >the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of options which did >not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem t= o have >enough support that they might be the eventual basis of working group >consensus. The chairs do not view the other options as having sufficient >support to warrant further working group activity or discussion. > >There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious >support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positi= ons >and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participan= ts in >the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose betw= een >them at this time. > >The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to >implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 >meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its >energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video >document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but >initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus f= or MTI. > >When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expec= t to >run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to implemen= t. >This expectation may change, however, based on new information or working >group experience. > >If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2= 014 >please let us know by February 4. > >Thank you, > >Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com Mon Jan 27 23:30:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1751E1A025B for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbYCEC6uikqC for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3291A01CD for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-00-52e75c9e8c27 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 32.7E.23809.E9C57E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:30:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:30:37 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= To: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll Thread-Index: AQHPG+erq9leAgboKUm8yFL0L8xv3g== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:30:37 +0000 Message-ID: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF44737@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.146] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje68mOdBBk3XxC0+rP/BaLH2Xzu7 A5PHkiU/mTwun//IGMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJWxZelrxoJOwYqzC9ewNjB+4+1i5OSQEDCR aP/dyQRhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4BCjxOvfa5ggnMWMEqt/N7GAVLEJBEps3beADcQWEfCQOPTz EzuILQw0qeXgByaIuKnEwT372SFsPYmbj2awdjFycLAIqEocbPcCMXkFfCW+/U4HqRASsJTo nnoVrJoR6Ibvp9aATWEWEJe49WQ+1G0CEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphK0n82HCJBaJeT+LG1Cls ELa2xLKFr8HqeQUEJU7OfMIygVFkFpKxs5C0zELSMgtJywJGllWM7LmJmTnp5UabGIEBf3DL b9UdjHfOiRxilOZgURLn/fDWOUhIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QD47xZAu0GCvvq NC3K37/0fOq1/N8Rq4zq44sijGcZrrN+K1MQL5lwqj/hv6ySSkTzTQm5rcIvfC+rcPcEXtnx a+7GbIYp08M+qj3K/2+3/KZzkOj8Fg0d42554QsqDG9nzdB9/rW9TGzSp7OfxPxeblAvSA1W P88q+W+x28NncqHtvobiG+UOKrEUZyQaajEXFScCAHuZSM9GAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:30:44 -0000 +1=0A= =0A= On 2014-01-28 06:13, Cullen Jennings wrote:=0A= > Dear WG,=0A= >=0A= > After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the wor= king group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to= develop. There are a number of options which did not garner significant= support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support t= hat they might be the eventual basis of working group consensus. The chair= s do not view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant fur= ther working group activity or discussion.=0A= >=0A= > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious su= pport for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions= and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participan= ts in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose= between them at this time. =0A= >=0A= > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to imp= lement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeti= ng in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy= on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video documen= t (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initiall= y without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI.= =0A= >=0A= > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expe= ct to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imp= lement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information or = working group experience.=0A= >=0A= > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, = 2014 please let us know by February 4.=0A= >=0A= > Thank you, =0A= >=0A= > Cullen, Magnus, Ted =0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > rtcweb mailing list=0A= > rtcweb@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb=0A= >=0A= =0A= From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:16:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90331A0271 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:16:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RksVCEXuJjKw for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47C11A025B for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:16:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-a6-52e76757d576 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 59.C1.10875.75767E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:16:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:16:22 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? Thread-Index: Ac8cATohOVAlbIwKQYO2t8QqB7DbKg== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:16:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0DESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW54+vMgg/9L1S3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxrVVt5gK7stVLDp1nbmB8ZNUFyMnh4SAicT//XeZIWwxiQv3 1rN1MXJxCAkcYpRYd2o7C4SzmFHi+vytTF2MHBxsAhYS3f+0QRpEBNQlLj+8wA5iCwtESXy+ fJwJIh4vcbKhlQ3C1pNY338LrIZFQFXi3/IJrCA2r4CvxNdJ88HqGYEWfz+1BsxmFhCXuPUE Ii4hICCxZM95qONEJV4+/scKcoKEgKLE8n45iPJ8iX2X7kGNFJQ4OfMJywRGoVlIJs1CUjYL SRlEXEdiwe5PbBC2tsSyha+ZYewzBx4zIYsvYGRfxciem5iZk15uuIkRGPQHt/zW3cF46pzI IUZpDhYlcd4Pb52DhATSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTAyV7SsVlj849imKObFWxUn r6h6Ljdt0xLzS1t3sInO9vr5acvSuFsFM6L47728Jvgli11U0eZl/qaZgSvKbeeXhl09uG/W ibWtwd9kfbfoOO9juKAaG1Aq0XLwy4swp9l1fkL9N/hEdTof7ll/ma1J7XpOV0BBv+2L5bq+ P8TtHJwOCs2ynZuixFKckWioxVxUnAgAbVDVQUgCAAA= Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:16:29 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0DESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a data channel consists of= two unidirectional SCTP streams. draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one endpoint wants to open= a data channel, it sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using a SCTP stream ID value= of its choice). Then, the other endpoints sends DATA_CHANNEL_ACK on the sa= me SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidirectional stream). Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do both endp= oints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (on separate SCTP streams)? Or, can on= e of the endpoints, if it has received DCO, start using the data channel (u= sing a SCTP stream of its choice)? Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0DESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi,

     

    As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a d= ata channel consists of two unidirectional SCTP streams.

     

    draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one= endpoint wants to open a data channel, it sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using= a SCTP stream ID value of its choice). Then, the other endpoints sends DAT= A_CHANNEL_ACK on the same SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidirectional stream).

     

    Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use = the data channel, do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (on sepa= rate SCTP streams)? Or, can one of the endpoints, if it has received DCO, start using th= e data channel (using a SCTP stream of its choice)?

     

    Regards,

     

    Christer

     

     

    --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0DESESSMB209erics_-- From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:28:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483C81A003E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:28:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S5qwZzVvhLJJ for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0A11A0018 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-dd-52e76a2ee35b Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 96.E4.04249.E2A67E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:28:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:28:29 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? Thread-Index: Ac8cAngQ5gMoLtdxSK+NK5iG67ycPg== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:28:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5e1vMgg0Xf1C3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRsf5PUwFm6QqnlzZwt7AOEG8i5GTQ0LARGLB05NMELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hASOMEq8ebGECcJZzCjxufUCYxcjBwebgIVE9z9tkAYRAXWJyw8vsIPYwgLmEkve 72GDiNtIrLi9iAXC1pM4Pn0b2AIWAVWJtT0vwcbwCvhKfJoVDxJmBNr7/dQasBJmAXGJW0/m Q90jILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wgrRICShLTtqZBlOdLLH9+CWwTr4CgxMmZT1gmMArNQjJpFpKy WUjKIOI6Egt2f2KDsLUlli18zQxjnznwmAlZfAEj+ypGjuLU4qTcdCODTYzAoD+45bfFDsbL f20OMUpzsCiJ83586xwkJJCeWJKanZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgXGyv+ze34bnN90NzOk4 sGWZZlHFVu3Zqjlb/wu3bFqpzmn+s1Xtzwyn7pQnvdFCja3lX/tXH+731VKN+q/cOXfmr8wJ HO2cndHX65K01RhzJjY/Oi76/7Oxy6QM7e/ZvYKW90tZlcSibr9Sd/3GbMj2PKO3b+qum1Or dPTM+zv3JPq6eH7ap8RSnJFoqMVcVJwIAMNNadhIAgAA Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:28:36 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed the usage of the RTCWEB= data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re-use what RTCWEB has do= ne, and it would provide interoperability between CLUE entities and RTCWEB. Q1: One question that came up is whether RTCWEB MANDATES the usage of the R= TCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it possible to simply establish two SCT= P streams (as defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06), and start usin= g it? Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi,

     

    At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed = the usage of the RTCWEB data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re= -use what RTCWEB has done, and it would provide interoperability between CL= UE entities and RTCWEB.

     

    Q1: One question that came up is whether RTCW= EB MANDATES the usage of the RTCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it= possible to simply establish two SCTP streams (as defined in draft-ietf-rt= cweb-data-channel-06), and start using it?

     

    Regards,

     

    Christer

    --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4ESESSMB209erics_-- From salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:30:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303211A003E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:30:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnOWlYxzB4ub for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8911A0018 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:30:50 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-eb-52e76ab70a08 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A7.14.10875.7BA67E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:30:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.236]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:30:47 +0100 From: Salvatore Loreto To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? Thread-Index: Ac8cATohOVAlbIwKQYO2t8QqB7DbKv//80KA Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:30:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A21E09802F384156AE038C5D80FE74F0ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje72rOdBBq+fq1is/dfO7sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujLMX7jAV9HtW/OlaxNLAeNaui5GTQ0LARGL1z7PMELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAQOMUpc37EbylnCKLF2wV1WkCo2ATOJ5w+3gHWIANnXP/cygdjMAuoSdxafYwex hQXSJbr2fAeyOYBqMiTubxWBMI0knnVIg1SwCKhK/Ji+gAXE5hWwl5i5eTvYRCEBX4nGzTPB NnEK+Em8X7UWrIYR6Lbvp9ZAbRKXuPVkPhPEzQISS/ach7pfVOLl43+sELaSxKLbn6HqkyVW vZnIBLFLUOLkzCcsExhFZyEZNQtJ2SwkZRBxHYkFuz+xQdjaEssWvmaGsc8ceAzVay3Rd3sH M7KaBYwcqxjZcxMzc9LLDTcxAqPq4JbfujsYT50TOcQozcGiJM774a1zkJBAemJJanZqakFq UXxRaU5q8SFGJg5OqQZGVm32LW7WppN5xdyn3rFUnCpzfuoqOeOwGRKf3Nd98MycZO85Zc/W /zGu+0oaAhcwTn778+3VilNFlZtXCrjrfEpuyns8LfLnHpedmV0iBt0SvdOmzFi/PVJbKjNp 7qMTJcJTnV7ohIbM4viUVCTxlCtgNtv2zgNBNlv48l3eLusp0Tn1blGoEktxRqKhFnNRcSIA UaW+FXgCAAA= Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:30:53 -0000 --_000_A21E09802F384156AE038C5D80FE74F0ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: Hi, As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a data channel consists of= two unidirectional SCTP streams. exactly it is a pair of one ingoing and one outgoing stream draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one endpoint wants to open= a data channel, it sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using a SCTP stream ID value= of its choice). Then, the other endpoints sends DATA_CHANNEL_ACK on the sa= me SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidirectional stream). not exactly, it says with the same stream identifier If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an unused stream, the stream identifier corresponds to the role of the peer and all parameters in the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message are valid, then a corresponding DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message is sent on the stream with the same stream identifier as the one the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message was received on. that means that means that the outgoing stream should have the same stream = identifier of the ingoing one. I understand is not clear at first read, we will try to clarify better Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do both endp= oints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (on separate SCTP streams)? Or, can on= e of the endpoints, if it has received DCO, start using the data channel (u= sing a SCTP stream of its choice)? sorry I don't understand the question. Are you asking for both endpoints trying to open the same channel and how a= void glare in opening channels or you are looking in the scenario where both endpoints want to open to dif= ferent channels? br Salvatore Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --_000_A21E09802F384156AE038C5D80FE74F0ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <313EF40D40E75E47A071B50FBF767860@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
     wrote:

    Hi,
     
    As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a data channel consists of= two unidirectional SCTP streams.

    exactly it is a pair of one ingoing and one outgoing stream

     
    draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one endpoint wants to open= a data channel, it sends a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using a SCTP stream ID value= of its choice). Then, the other endpoints sends DATA_CHANNEL_ACK on the same SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidirectional stream).

    not exactly, it says with the same stream identifier

       If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an =
unused stream, the
   stream identifier corresponds to the role of the peer and all
   parameters in the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message are valid, then a
   corresponding DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message is sent on the stream with the
   same stream identifier as the one the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message was
   received on.
    that means that means that the outgoing stream should have the same st= ream identifier of the ingoing one.
    I understand is not clear at first read, we will try to clarify better=  

     
    Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do bo= th endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (on separate SCTP streams)? Or, can one of the en= dpoints, if it has received DCO, start using the data channel (using a SCTP stream of its choice)?

    sorry I don't understand the question.
    Are you asking for both endpoints trying to open the same channel and = how avoid glare in opening channels
    or you are looking in the scenario where both endpoints want to open t= o different channels?

    br
    Salvatore

     
    Regards,
     
    Christer
     
     
    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r= tcweb

    --_000_A21E09802F384156AE038C5D80FE74F0ericssoncom_-- From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:37:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D681A019D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:37:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5c-GmwdEzZY for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7F01A0018 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:37:45 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-03-52e76c56507c Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9C.A8.23809.65C67E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:37:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC021.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.81]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:37:41 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Salvatore Loreto Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? Thread-Index: Ac8cATohOVAlbIwKQYO2t8QqB7DbKv//80KA///u5jA= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:37:40 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D144004@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW5YzvMgg8sbrCzW/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRvukfUwF8wUq/u3tYm5g/MjTxcjJISFgInFv6x9mCFtM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgKHGCUerethBEkICSxmlDh42K2LkYODTcBCovufNogpAtT7+EA+SAWzgLrEncXn 2EFsYYF0iXUt21ghSjIk7m8VAQmLCFhJbD73DCzMIqAq0bsoHCTMK+Ar8WTeeUaIpc2MEovm TmQBSXAKOEjM7J4Gdhkj0GXfT61hglglLnHryXwmiIsFJJbsOQ91vajEy8f/wOZLCChJTNua BlGuJ3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC18wQewUlTs58wjKBUWwWkqmzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYzsuYmZOenl RpsYgXFwcMtv1R2Md86JHGKU5mBREuf98NY5SEggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVANj USDXvbApJ7dOjhXd1P7+eeULrRnzxM0ldk97Itr3smDhgd97P9ktD37y9sTm6qNW56/rzow/ KxF1ecuUbQeWX2id8pD/6Gk+n33CM3aneIht+yxgLXjbwISPqfiKW+C/R1eViy4yLr518tHO M9kvi3k9b11/ZNp9MF9722w/9q8Z+o5ss36IcSmxFGckGmoxFxUnAgCt32c3UQIAAA== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:37:48 -0000 Hi Sal, =A0 >> As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a data channel consists= of two unidirectional SCTP streams. >> exactly it is a pair of one ingoing and one outgoing stream >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one endpoint wants to o= pen a data channel, it sends a=20 >> DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using a SCTP stream ID value of its choice). Then, th= e other endpoints sends=20 >> DATA_CHANNEL_ACK on the=A0same=A0SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidire= ctional stream). >> > not exactly, it says with the same stream identifier > > If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an unused stream, the > stream identifier corresponds to the role of the peer and all > parameters in the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message are valid, then a > corresponding DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message is sent on the stream with the > same stream identifier as the one the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message was > received on. > that means that means that the outgoing stream should have the same strea= m identifier of the ingoing one. > I understand is not clear at first read, we will try to clarify better=A0 Thanks. I also think it would be good to add some call flows to the draft. >> Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do both e= ndpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN=20 >> (on separate SCTP streams)?=A0Or, can one of the endpoints, if it has re= ceived DCO, start using the data channel (using a SCTP stream of its choice= )? > > sorry I don't understand the question. > Are you asking for both endpoints trying to open the same channel and how= avoid glare in opening channels > or you are looking in the scenario where both endpoints want to open to d= ifferent channels? I am not talking about a glare situation. I am talking about where an endpoint has received a DCO, and replied with a= DCA. Then, that endpoint also wants to use the data channel. Does it also = have to send a DCO? I assume not, but I think it would be good to make that= more clear. Regards, Christer From salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:46:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664CB1A018F for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_9umP_-xrtr for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C72C1A008A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-60-52e76e5fa883 Received: from ESESSHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 30.56.10875.F5E67E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:46:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.236]) by ESESSHC001.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.21]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:46:22 +0100 From: Salvatore Loreto To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? Thread-Index: Ac8cATohOVAlbIwKQYO2t8QqB7DbKv//80KA///u5jCAABV0AA== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:46:20 +0000 Message-ID: <4B7CB104-BD52-4392-A0B5-4F5C187AA001@ericsson.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D144004@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D144004@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW583vMggwONyhZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY+rFdqaC5cIViw+8ZmlgXMzfxcjJISFgIrF36REWCFtM4sK9 9WwgtpDAIUaJx1vyuhi5gOwljBKnbjcygyTYBMwknj/cAmaLANnXP/cygdjMAuoSdxafYwex hQXSJbr2fAeyOYBqMiTubxWBKHeSePbjDSOIzSKgKjHz9wpmkBJeAXuJO9eFIFYdZ5S4NekX 2A2cAn4SWx9/BlvFCHTb91NroFaJS9x6Mp8J4mYBiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwlSQalzxhhajX k7gxdQobhG0tMWnCG3YIW1ti2cLXYL28AoISJ2c+YZnAKD4LyYpZSNpnIWmfhaR9FpL2BYys qxjZcxMzc9LLDTcxAqPn4JbfujsYT50TOcQozcGiJM774a1zkJBAemJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5q 8SFGJg5OqQbGSdz21tfV+Nym2C5YqGfB8tOhe7rur89yL05d27ffjUEkUf7/XBN/reL5qrvd NP6l+3f12nuGsVWZCCZzl85bHexd6BAnmX9kQtblXdxrdhRrZ8aUKHQdMq9R8rL6wd3ZIXJN +GeBQVjK3W/dG5+99Krvme+stT9q5kWuF9UHU5een3v28BwlluKMREMt5qLiRACiIWI0bAIA AA== Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:46:28 -0000 On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi Sal, > =20 >>> As defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06, a data channel consist= s of two unidirectional SCTP streams. >>> exactly it is a pair of one ingoing and one outgoing stream >>>=20 >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-01 says that, if one endpoint wants to = open a data channel, it sends a=20 >>> DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN (using a SCTP stream ID value of its choice). Then, t= he other endpoints sends=20 >>> DATA_CHANNEL_ACK on the same SCTP stream (eventhough it is a unidirecti= onal stream). >>>=20 >> not exactly, it says with the same stream identifier >>=20 >> If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an unused stream, the >> stream identifier corresponds to the role of the peer and all >> parameters in the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message are valid, then a >> corresponding DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message is sent on the stream with the >> same stream identifier as the one the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message was >> received on. >> that means that means that the outgoing stream should have the same stre= am identifier of the ingoing one. >> I understand is not clear at first read, we will try to clarify better=20 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > I also think it would be good to add some call flows to the draft. >=20 >>> Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do both = endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN=20 >>> (on separate SCTP streams)? Or, can one of the endpoints, if it has rec= eived DCO, start using the data channel (using a SCTP stream of its choice)= ? >>=20 >> sorry I don't understand the question. >> Are you asking for both endpoints trying to open the same channel and ho= w avoid glare in opening channels >> or you are looking in the scenario where both endpoints want to open to = different channels? >=20 > I am not talking about a glare situation. >=20 > I am talking about where an endpoint has received a DCO, and replied with= a DCA. Then, that endpoint also wants to use the data channel. well a DataChannel is bidirectional then it can be used to send data from b= oth the sides once it is open. > Does it also have to send a DCO? I assume not, but I think it would be go= od to make that more clear. you are right, it has not to do. OK point taken, we will clarify this point also. br Salvatore >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:57:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A971A026A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7oSQeXGqmnj4 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD811A02D0 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:57:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-93-52e7710c8574 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CA.AB.23809.C0177E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:57:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:57:48 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll Thread-Index: AQHPG+er3lQrmqPyXUG217n70JPcQ5qZwiaQ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:57:47 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D14417B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjS5P4fMgg/Yua4sP638wWqz9187u wOSxZMlPJo/L5z8yBjBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGVM2a1XsFGw4sezVpYGxn6+LkZODgkBE4mf e+6zQ9hiEhfurWfrYuTiEBI4xCixfO8MdghnMaPEokWLGLsYOTjYBCwkuv9pgzSICHhIHPr5 CaxZGGjQr3Mf2CDiphIH9+xnh7CNJBa/WscK0soioCqx94YSSJhXwFfiwfzLLCC2kIClRPfU q2DlnAJWEt23bjKD2IxA93w/tYYJxGYWEJe49WQ+E8SdAhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/gc2XkJASWLa 1jSIch2JBbs/sUHY2hLLFr5mhlgrKHFy5hOWCYyis5BMnYWkZRaSlllIWhYwsqxiZM9NzMxJ LzfaxAiMgoNbfqvuYLxzTuQQozQHi5I474e3zkFCAumJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUa GKcym6e2vPMun9O/ed0h3m8rrmZueX/jwZxyy0XX9mQWmOtYtjBPerh5SlTzk2VHdgTHMibd 9J60WJY5piG1oGzmFoE9sRV/kq4/fcOtOPn27odnuM88/xogKiAWuHXmt0I78yl+S8o789m/ 3p/1f832sL+qs7/E/NvyK9bY4e+ihCfredV6Z35XYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAar6gq1ACAAA= Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:57:54 -0000 +1. Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings Sent: 28. tammikuuta 2014 7:13 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll Dear WG, After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archi= ve/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the worki= ng group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to d= evelop. There are a number of options which did not garner significant s= upport; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support tha= t they might be the eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs = do not view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant furth= er working group activity or discussion. There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious supp= ort for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions a= nd objections, and both have the support of well over half the participants= in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose b= etween them at this time. =20 The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to imple= ment video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting= in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy o= n completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video document = (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initially = without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI. When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect= to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imple= ment. This expectation may change, however, based on new information or wo= rking group experience. If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 20= 14 please let us know by February 4. Thank you,=20 Cullen, Magnus, Ted _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From hangzhou.chenxin@huawei.com Tue Jan 28 01:06:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C691A035D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:06:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yiT5nZSkJ-eB for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9B21A02D9 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAN14236; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:06 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:36 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.191]) by SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:06:29 +0800 From: "Chenxin (Xin)" To: Salvatore Loreto , Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? Thread-Index: Ac8cATohOVAlbIwKQYO2t8QqB7DbKv//80KA///u5jCAABV0AP//7Huw Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:27 +0000 Message-ID: <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680AB034@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D142F0D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D144004@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <4B7CB104-BD52-4392-A0B5-4F5C187AA001@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4B7CB104-BD52-4392-A0B5-4F5C187AA001@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.173.17.195] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Do both endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:48 -0000 Hi Salvatore >> >> I also think it would be good to add some call flows to the draft. >> >>>> Q1: Assuming that both endpoints want to use the data channel, do both >endpoints need to send DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN >>>> (on separate SCTP streams)? Or, can one of the endpoints, if it has re= ceived >DCO, start using the data channel (using a SCTP stream of its choice)? >>> >>> sorry I don't understand the question. >>> Are you asking for both endpoints trying to open the same channel and h= ow >avoid glare in opening channels >>> or you are looking in the scenario where both endpoints want to open to >different channels? >> >> I am not talking about a glare situation. >> >> I am talking about where an endpoint has received a DCO, and replied wit= h a >DCA. Then, that endpoint also wants to use the data channel. > >well a DataChannel is bidirectional then it can be used to send data from = both >the sides once it is open. > > >> Does it also have to send a DCO? I assume not, but I think it would be g= ood to >make that more clear. > >you are right, it has not to do. >OK point taken, we will clarify this point also. > Do you means when has the DC been negotiated by out-band way? Best Reagrds, Xin >br >Salvatore > > >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From spromano@unina.it Tue Jan 28 01:54:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C491A0361 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:54:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qu5iyaOxxZ7k for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.unina.it (smtp2.unina.it [192.132.34.62]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677191A0360 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1-160-241-11.dynamic.hinet.net ([91.252.216.105]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp2.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0S9s9M1005076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:11 +0100 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----M96CKT3BISIJUUKVW7J0R0KXFW7XCC" From: Simon Pietro Romano Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:51:19 +0100 To: Cullen Jennings , rtcweb@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:54:25 -0000 ------M96CKT3BISIJUUKVW7J0R0KXFW7XCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 Simon Cullen Jennings ha scritto: > >Dear WG, > >After reviewing the poll results found here: >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf >the chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI >is required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of >options which did not garner significant support; essentially only >options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the >eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the >other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working >group activity or discussion. > >There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious >support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting >positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half >the participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to >being able to choose between them at this time. > >The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to >implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF >91 meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can >focus its energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work >on the video document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone >of December, but initially without specifying which of the two codecs >is the WG consensus for MTI. > >When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently >expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be >mandatory to implement. This expectation may change, however, based on >new information or working group experience. > >If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September >29, 2014 please let us know by February 4. > >Thank you, > >Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb ------M96CKT3BISIJUUKVW7J0R0KXFW7XCC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1

    Simon

    Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> ha scritto:

    Dear WG,

    After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to develop.    There are a number of options which did not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual basis of working group consensus.  The chairs do not view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or discussion.

    There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious support for selecting both.  Each has similar numbers of supporting positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participants in the straw poll.  Given that, we are no closer to bein!
 g able
to choose between them at this time.  

    The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy on completing other work.  We do expect to begin work on the video document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI.

    When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to implement.  This expectation may change, however, based on new information or working group experience.

    If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2014 please let us know by February 4.

    Thank you, 

    Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>




    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    ------M96CKT3BISIJUUKVW7J0R0KXFW7XCC-- From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Tue Jan 28 06:52:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD941A0227 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qx8QKtTDLKRo for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4901A0424 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id un15so444694pbc.38 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5/9IseiHh2KN1KWTffMVd6t0fbMZbYjv2gbcPY1Nw24=; b=UKomJHfFYMRku+poiMAaFAPVopg8rDvDoJDbNheiM8YCE5nhOggqQb0VQwDyFtgjbI BI5IPXZ91XcslJfjTBUrqJVQkK9NnuA+tZ3oFzlmn2ec4r/EfPB2OIKmRKOmVjpX69K8 nQ/5c6IGQDMpEKnCyuw3ooynQYytW1BsRVeijtP6XRCnVMxllzxWuWWSrM31vb4YZUmO 4f/oaHWTVuxgwkmEe1cHeFnHp4vStKYm0F0gie4dYtEmpL87njcJd8ogJvLYztusb7Cc a9UDZo6dvVAPpJyoOJmcBPr4x1MH2QxLWHgw6C/2Be9Dn9zvEwNNujZt3rJIMzH7L5pO YN1g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.139.100 with SMTP id qx4mr1938485pbb.144.1390920766927; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.200.97 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:52:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:52:46 +0100 Message-ID: From: Victor Pascual Avila To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:52:57 -0000 +1 -Victor On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Dear WG, > > After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the wor= king group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to= develop. There are a number of options which did not garner significant= support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support t= hat they might be the eventual basis of working group consensus. The chair= s do not view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant fur= ther working group activity or discussion. > > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious su= pport for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions= and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participan= ts in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose= between them at this time. > > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to imp= lement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeti= ng in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy= on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video documen= t (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initiall= y without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI. > > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expe= ct to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imp= lement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information or = working group experience. > > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, = 2014 please let us know by February 4. > > Thank you, > > Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From roman@telurix.com Tue Jan 28 06:58:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3EA1A02CF for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zej1QaO1PzWs for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f45.google.com (mail-la0-f45.google.com [209.85.215.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88DA01A008E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b8so437813lan.18 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=snurhEzePHMiIuXfyiz2lpNb+WHsiWqTw7nf/XBYksQ=; b=PB18DTYPzFcMFh2FHde4BdydyQH9TZl195F7PoetPAvd64guSc90FGNStfaeutWzH1 OC1ejc5VGuzb7Q8IHCPqj7Py5lEIrrabatC2TG2abO+BoagasWfs0RNUpc2nOIL65NHW VqasRpLtHBahXQD5Ct8Z9p/yjYo1meP6C3A5ZnMeljeGX9WFlunVlYsx1bIieJ2INeTi oJlLfEO3nRHtJH9thn/2VG7FLviuDI0U1gQtYzb2gF7do+QeRyrrXT6ob3fO6ZBGEHUC uSwww/pn0L0LVAEEAtZewb+abFwmWS46b63splPyIcH1F3aj70xscfLMKMV1aNd27uXZ GC7w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlBGtftc5hTEE6zMpEzIqRsC5I5EKND4xAVGWuyWNbgCC2gaYX8tmydSWdlR8hW9e2Z0tgg X-Received: by 10.112.157.194 with SMTP id wo2mr43429lbb.78.1390921087079; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id wt2sm17041500lbb.2.2014.01.28.06.58.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id l4so428743lbv.38 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.198.65 with SMTP id ja1mr44895lbc.75.1390921086112; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.206.72 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:58:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3409a3f9ba204f1090dcf Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:58:12 -0000 --001a11c3409a3f9ba204f1090dcf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +1 and all the votes I can cast! _____________ Roman Shpount On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Dear WG, > > After reviewing the poll results found here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the > chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is > required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of > options which did not garner significant support; essentially only options > 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual > basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the other options > as having sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or > discussion. > > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious > support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting > positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the > participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able > to choose between them at this time. > > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to > implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 > meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its > energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video > document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but > initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus > for MTI. > > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently > expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to > implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information > or working group experience. > > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, > 2014 please let us know by February 4. > > Thank you, > > Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c3409a3f9ba204f1090dcf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    +1 and all the votes I can cast!

    _____________
    Roman Shpount


    On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Cullen= Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

    Dear WG,

    After reviewing the poll results found here: http:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the ch= airs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is require= d for the WebRTC ecology to develop. =A0 =A0There are a number of options w= hich did not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, = 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual basis of work= ing group consensus. =A0The chairs do not view the other options as having = sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or discussion.=

    There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious supp= ort for selecting both. =A0Each has similar numbers of supporting positions= and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participan= ts in the straw poll. =A0Given that, we are no closer to being able to choo= se between them at this time.

    The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to imple= ment video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting= in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy o= n completing other work. =A0We do expect to begin work on the video documen= t (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initiall= y without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI.
    When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect= to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imple= ment. =A0This expectation may change, however, based on new information or = working group experience.

    If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 20= 14 please let us know by February 4.

    Thank you,

    Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>




    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a11c3409a3f9ba204f1090dcf-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Tue Jan 28 07:15:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC971A03E8 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5YFdpT9xtWag for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x22b.google.com (mail-ie0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03021A0379 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id as1so538557iec.16 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AanDVEpNdzrDwp6+ukmC9MHsm80sJ+DecsJ759yip/c=; b=MhFfLa86cKz+8VWqv+I75HC1wn+z34HDggll5qF8Nqq6P8B6PUotGrnSw7DfSEUkB9 FeO7Ko7SOO6Ee+gTowZ+s8YRSDFHTnDExOLPBxoVEIwqr+oOKr/Jp5Uu5h8yiqNCFGsN zEs5CvkKBn6T/AQ5Lo6VvIVAEHaymHm8mEeREfBEx+fG235NLykqYrcTo/Xw61xOPIL2 9acScqxUe3omSc7O5sAQXBiGG+sNfP0CG1b7PbZ8e0QfeFiz1aXYJ7NXZiNNillOweJQ 3LVHU9prSHiSWcUGCj5AyGNTO+lZvzPJHUosqpoU3Fj7PDhQrI6U6zQ2U9sPVstzqVPA c7OA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.227.195 with SMTP id jb3mr1494184icb.27.1390922101062; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.58.137 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:15:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:15:00 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133df8ebe8a0604f109496f Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:15:09 -0000 --001a1133df8ebe8a0604f109496f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I fully support tabling this discussion. Mary. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Dear WG, > > After reviewing the poll results found here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the > chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is > required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of > options which did not garner significant support; essentially only options > 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual > basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the other options > as having sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or > discussion. > > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious > support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting > positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the > participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able > to choose between them at this time. > > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to > implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 > meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its > energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video > document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but > initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus > for MTI. > > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently > expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to > implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information > or working group experience. > > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, > 2014 please let us know by February 4. > > Thank you, > > Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a1133df8ebe8a0604f109496f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I fully support tabling this discussion.

    Mary.=A0


    On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca&= gt; wrote:

    Dear WG,

    After reviewing the poll results found here: http:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the ch= airs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is require= d for the WebRTC ecology to develop. =A0 =A0There are a number of options w= hich did not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, = 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual basis of work= ing group consensus. =A0The chairs do not view the other options as having = sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or discussion.=

    There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious supp= ort for selecting both. =A0Each has similar numbers of supporting positions= and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participan= ts in the straw poll. =A0Given that, we are no closer to being able to choo= se between them at this time.

    The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to imple= ment video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting= in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy o= n completing other work. =A0We do expect to begin work on the video documen= t (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initiall= y without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI.
    When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect= to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to imple= ment. =A0This expectation may change, however, based on new information or = working group experience.

    If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 20= 14 please let us know by February 4.

    Thank you,

    Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>




    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a1133df8ebe8a0604f109496f-- From harald@alvestrand.no Tue Jan 28 07:17:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A6E1A0379 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jnVd30Tr8WoV for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266F51A039B for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E66839E125 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:17:48 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ugo6splAocCq for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:17:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.1.1.234] (64-71-23-98.static.wiline.com [64.71.23.98]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4680039E0FD for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:17:45 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E7CA0D.2070509@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:17:33 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:17:45 -0000 Just to be 100% sure: This is the US version of "table" (put aside), not the UK version of "table" (start working on), right? This is one of the words I try avoid using. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(parliamentary_procedure) Apart from that, +1 on both the decision to postpone and the conclusion that there doesn't seem to be a basis for forming a consensus on any proposal but 1, 2, 3 and 4. On 01/28/2014 06:13 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > Dear WG, > > After reviewing the poll results found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of options which did not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or discussion. > > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able to choose between them at this time. > > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for MTI. > > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information or working group experience. > > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, 2014 please let us know by February 4. > > Thank you, > > Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. From harald@alvestrand.no Tue Jan 28 07:48:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F011A027C for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:48:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wMbZSdqAtJS for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2:213:72ff:fe0b:80d8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBA31A0269 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9334539E125 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:48:57 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8x4ZDfHLky8r for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:48:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.1.1.234] (64-71-23-98.static.wiline.com [64.71.23.98]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B63939E0FD for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:48:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E7D15A.4090805@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:48:42 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020100040904030906060205" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:48:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020100040904030906060205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/28/2014 09:28 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed the usage of the > RTCWEB data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re-use what > RTCWEB has done, and it would provide interoperability between CLUE > entities and RTCWEB. > > > > *Q1*: One question that came up is whether RTCWEB *MANDATES* the usage > of the RTCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it possible to simply > establish two SCTP streams (as defined in > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06), and start using it? > My understanding has been the latter - externally negotiated data channels are explicitly permitted. draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06 section 6.5: 6.5. Opening a Channel Data channels can be opened by using internal or external negotiation. The details are out of scope of this document. A simple protocol for internal negotiation is specified in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol] and MUST be supported. "MUST be supported" is not the same as "MUST be used". > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------020100040904030906060205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    On 01/28/2014 09:28 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

    Hi,

     

    At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed the usage of the RTCWEB data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re-use what RTCWEB has done, and it would provide interoperability between CLUE entities and RTCWEB.

     

    Q1: One question that came up is whether RTCWEB MANDATES the usage of the RTCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it possible to simply establish two SCTP streams (as defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06), and start using it?


    My understanding has been the latter - externally negotiated data channels are explicitly permitted.

    draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06 section 6.5:

    6.5.  Opening a Channel

       Data channels can be opened by using internal or external
       negotiation.  The details are out of scope of this document.

       A simple protocol for internal negotiation is specified in
       [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol] and MUST be supported.


    "MUST be supported" is not the same as "MUST be used".


     

    Regards,

     

    Christer



    _______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    -- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
    --------------020100040904030906060205-- From ted.ietf@gmail.com Tue Jan 28 08:14:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071F61A02D3 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZcVUzsQzux0 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2F41A023D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f175.google.com with SMTP id uq10so12479431igb.2 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+NU8arQ3gMuUGdbvf18WyjKT0kW2KmXJDJH+omyxquQ=; b=piFruWIyvH+N90ZhA8Il7E6/bhLpez1TWBgx5vtGQxpoFXuKp0pFZPNZqJbNGE7NIp z8Zks7b8f3x9730RDB0VUriJTDipj5V36aw/3B0AU1xrj6Gm1TzSF+DB8VJMHhSwlo6m 1wMIqjL60GZBnNKk4DvCuUmT4JQjFYL85NusmtUynhvYRwCXE5oWVrlb+ghaZ4Kagzk2 ReBg52DCD4AhruwsJjJ8aDUGyv0E8KypJk4HNzkEz9TlZ+WaKpb+nHjGIQ/Y8s3DFd5h cB//iqxSFJ/xtd9tNGVScXnogC2w+ncMK7fN6jp0GMZsfjgdWj3lbMSFkTy3mPMXqZXO yNMw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.228.65 with SMTP id jd1mr1790224icb.62.1390925686500; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.65.14 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E7CA0D.2070509@alvestrand.no> References: <52E7CA0D.2070509@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:14:46 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1132e4cc73f03704f10a1f82 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:14:52 -0000 --001a1132e4cc73f03704f10a1f82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > Just to be 100% sure: > > This is the US version of "table" (put aside), not the UK version of > "table" (start working on), right? > This is one of the words I try avoid using. > > We mean "put aside". Sorry for any lack of clarity; we thought the "until about six weeks before IETF 91" eliminated the confusion, but probably should have just said "put aside.". Ted > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(parliamentary_procedure) > > Apart from that, +1 on both the decision to postpone and the conclusion > that there doesn't seem to be a basis for forming a consensus on any > proposal but 1, 2, 3 and 4. > > > On 01/28/2014 06:13 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Dear WG, > > > > After reviewing the poll results found here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the > chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is > required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of > options which did not garner significant support; essentially only options > 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual > basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the other options > as having sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or > discussion. > > > > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious > support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting > positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the > participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being able > to choose between them at this time. > > > > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to > implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 > meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its > energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video > document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but > initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus > for MTI. > > > > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently > expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to > implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new information > or working group experience. > > > > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, > 2014 please let us know by February 4. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a1132e4cc73f03704f10a1f82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:17 AM= , Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
    Just to be 100% sure:

    This is the US version of "table" (put aside), not the UK version= of
    "table" (start working on), right?
    This is one of the words I try avoid using.


    We mean "put aside".=A0 Sorry for any lack of cla= rity; we thought the "until=A0 about six weeks before IETF 91"
    elim= inated the confusion, but probably should have just said "put aside.&q= uot;.

    Ted


    =A0
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(parliamentary_procedure= )

    Apart from that, +1 on both the decision to postpone and the conclusion
    that there doesn't seem to be a basis for forming a consensus on any proposal but 1, 2, 3 and 4.


    On 01/28/2014 06:13 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
    > Dear WG,
    >
    > After reviewing the poll results found here: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf t= he chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is re= quired for the WebRTC ecology to develop. =A0 =A0There are a number of opti= ons which did not garner significant support; essentially only options 1, 2= , 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the eventual basis of= working group consensus. =A0The chairs do not view the other options as ha= ving sufficient support to warrant further working group activity or discus= sion.
    >
    > There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious= support for selecting both. =A0Each has similar numbers of supporting posi= tions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the parti= cipants in the straw poll. =A0Given that, we are no closer to being able to= choose between them at this time.
    >
    > The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to = implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 me= eting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its ene= rgy on completing other work. =A0We do expect to begin work on the video do= cument (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but ini= tially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus for M= TI.
    >
    > When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently e= xpect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory to = implement. =A0This expectation may change, however, based on new informatio= n or working group experience.
    >
    > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 2= 9, 2014 please let us know by February 4.
    >
    > Thank you,
    >
    > Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _________________________________= ______________
    > rtcweb mailing list
    > rtcweb@ietf.org
    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    --
    Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

    _______________________________________________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

    --001a1132e4cc73f03704f10a1f82-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Jan 28 10:20:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F561A02E8 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFgt1zbqmWIj for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595231A0240 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from aither.local (unknown [71.84.176.17]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BC354032A; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:20:23 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:22:03 -0800 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:20:29 -0000 On 1/27/14, 9:13 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Dear WG, > > After reviewing the poll results found here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf > the chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an > MTI is required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. IMHO the state of video codec development needs to evolve before the WG can make a decision regarding an MTI video codec. > If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September > 29, 2014 please let us know by February 4. I have concerns that September 2014 is too soon. It was relatively easy for the WG to choose two MTI audio codecs because Opus was a clear winner among modern codecs (and because we had an obvious fallback). We have no such codec in the video space. My suggestion is to wait until we have such a codec (and, in parallel within some other WG or initiative, push hard to make that happen), rather than continue the endless and fruitless wrangling over the current options. Peter From martin.thomson@gmail.com Tue Jan 28 10:22:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA2F1A0355 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:22:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BK5NqfXrI7Vv for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460DD1A0240 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id y10so1529149wgg.22 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vUgeH6V4QTxkqFR5AyCUXKAjdnExOrFfpz6Z6bWd96M=; b=uht9GPoj69rRN47hvOmCXbS8+RvP7MIA/AND+bCSOGeu9UMhsMaRj3QdPTesT9V3ih Q2119lHAauaYDROC0xHOhNG6Cg+NNQ9PcjV2qr+mkBvYvWwcxC1pcC23McOV/Vton7Sx b8uTKt+GnPftZMrq2N8d0pUGzIr89I1xvCiSiJFzDW5DNfdCh3uTZ03N9OVo0Xl/s4oo rt5Srxxf8eHreM9sqoX7kSniEKtnGYvSnqd5PZ5MZjXEWAiJoOV++tQnW3bKXb+NU/8P DYDsodRXToXXoZ81YyE6qZXA115xVp0/8APJAzZK7Wj/RA4cE5myXlnaqCI5xj6N7wkk qBJg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.75.198 with SMTP id e6mr1952633wjw.3.1390933316136; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.145.131 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> References: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:21:56 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:22:01 -0000 On 28 January 2014 08:22, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > I have concerns that September 2014 is too soon. I think that perhaps you would be well served by raising that objection come September. In the meantime, enjoy the respite. From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Jan 28 10:33:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BB41A02B2 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:33:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDkdsfOLwcaQ for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1771A0240 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from aither.local (unknown [71.84.176.17]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B5EA4032A; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:32:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <52E7F7D9.6040607@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:32:57 -0800 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Thomson References: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:33:03 -0000 On 1/28/14, 10:21 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 28 January 2014 08:22, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> I have concerns that September 2014 is too soon. > > I think that perhaps you would be well served by raising that > objection come September. In the meantime, enjoy the respite. Indeed! The quiet is wonderful. :-) From pthatcher@google.com Tue Jan 28 13:39:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3E71A034E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.914 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.914 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq6CWxnQGkoS for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F451A03AA for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id lf10so891482pab.18 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=U4mx6ikrtYm2qyMU3ta0R3MWpdaFQQMcY/vtDKP/E1Q=; b=gxcXiln+X6L4r2cPvkE9Flhtg1U4dRhZLkJkb/lmJK7maAdx/iPltBI1m2CXYqVR28 ZErCd7BJmswfDB4aWzpIK0Z9zoS2IdqA/PWKFuOlejsBO5ta+8puBUslTWr87CacydCH BmT60jST0IVqh9ceS0V24uBthj2X1+JVIuUp8xwF4gk9GcZCnTj7TAe04XwGNraVkm+S vyzxuuFnOi4bubEWUq6U+ewYJ9OJLDhlu1M6mmMtsuXa19j7FPM3bELDjOpxSURJEPW7 lRRJkVJ0mrcfq5hX9U3XSkNUailTt69jfEuxRnZ81mFSwXtAJchsMDlZdmGMY0xPK9Sz Crew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=U4mx6ikrtYm2qyMU3ta0R3MWpdaFQQMcY/vtDKP/E1Q=; b=Oj1kVJvOUyHUDKrvlxMT095UGaYHk+4PTlgFBNda4ymz6hyc7Ux64G4VbpGtrkN7f+ WgzjrJoxlggd2VY1BuW3UuvE3pzxNay4jyVBNS7k7IB2wO78Dt+OL/uWDcBHLVEP4hLa RzwRgW6eo8BAivOzW8fRKjlb1YvRZKOiEocFCSIvX9ya5uz2m//+N/h+8y74/Dvf+9f6 P8f4n1IGpiIZJv+HJXAQnuQS3ZK2a48GQ1akek0JEx8QG55K2ToVZZWG8c38B5IQQjwQ FnK+69d11yS9kit6qAV7cXPCP+vhYiPiyVImD7UN/wxgUYRhSMYKY5Pke1V4Gr1OnDp/ /EmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlqKv4MqU/aNlgIipkpgW21l8WHVAFmBvt2uLFs+rrw12eYCdnTAkpI1/qMYxif4rGqAnkYn4JQCc1a1Q6uPyZRQCmyIAZexBIaw2ZXMU7MBt+PnzSTg3mvneBOzu8r33QmfpcRy0auCF8IeP/xOHIZZEu0eMWMHLGUD8XHuWCuUBlm8toMgxi2FnUqaBiemyfLh0lb X-Received: by 10.68.226.200 with SMTP id ru8mr3924876pbc.77.1390945181165; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.163.234 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E7D15A.4090805@alvestrand.no> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52E7D15A.4090805@alvestrand.no> From: Peter Thatcher Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:39:01 -0800 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:39:46 -0000 Harald is correct. If you use set "negotiated: true" in .createDataChannel, then the OPEN message won't be sent. The JS can also specify the SID in .createDataChannel, allowing you to use whatever form of signalling you want with no in-band signalling. On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 01/28/2014 09:28 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed the usage of the RTCWEB > data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re-use what RTCWEB has > done, and it would provide interoperability between CLUE entities and > RTCWEB. > > > > Q1: One question that came up is whether RTCWEB MANDATES the usage of the > RTCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it possible to simply establish two > SCTP streams (as defined in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06), and start > using it? > > > My understanding has been the latter - externally negotiated data channels > are explicitly permitted. > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06 section 6.5: > > 6.5. Opening a Channel > > Data channels can be opened by using internal or external > negotiation. The details are out of scope of this document. > > A simple protocol for internal negotiation is specified in > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol] and MUST be supported. > > > "MUST be supported" is not the same as "MUST be used". > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 23:40:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0791A03DC for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbEMtFL6qYcF for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:40:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA6F1A0257 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:40:50 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-70-52e8b07e9434 Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 62.96.04853.E70B8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:40:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8B07E.4060705@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:40:46 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D107730@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D10819E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52DD7889.8030209@alum.mit.edu> <52E01969.8080206@alum.mit.edu> <52E0E3B0.5050901@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW79hhdBBh/P81pM32djsfZfO7sD k8e5hvfsHkuW/GQKYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgylj+6glzwUWeirv717M0ME7h6mLk5JAQMJHo mHyfGcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DACUaJzSfWQTnLGSWuTm4Aq+IV0JbYs/4PC4jNIqAqcb/tJFic TcBC4uaPRjYQW1QgWOLWtAfsEPWCEidnPgGrFxGwkbgxcQITiM0soC5xZ/E5sBphAQeJK7dO M0Es62WVWDPjFliCUyBQ4vfCM0AJDqDzxCV6GoMgejUlWrf/Zoew5SWat84Gu0EI6LaGpg7W CYxCs5CsnoWkZRaSlgWMzKsYJYtTi4tz040M9HLTc0v0Uosyk4uL8/P0ilM3MQLD+eCW30Y7 GE/usT/EKM3BoiTOe521JkhIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QD42rlLQvOCN6ultGI eew2Q93l6YZVFqqCVS92iCguM+pbXO03e8O3nbqFD1cF7eau6axiOTPH/FLESWGlOjk1xvVp Cp3BzIaMPw5pN58O+mweqLl38Z7n6gfmiNvI/pnC0v83ytR3/t23/hcdNC+H3KqXC86/+fss Z+3O2LVfvhYxajy0s8isUWIpzkg01GIuKk4EALf2OjE1AgAA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-roach-mmusic-unified-plan-00 expired X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 07:40:53 -0000 On 2014-01-23 15:15, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > 2014/1/23 Magnus Westerlund : >> Iñaki, >> (As WG Chair) >> >> I don't see these posting as productive for the WG. We have a consensus >> on using SDP and Offer/Answer. This WG can't change the Offer/Answer >> process. That is done in MMUSIC. >> >> So please stop wasting peoples time with proposals that doesn't fit the >> limits established by consensus decisions. > > Hi Magnus. > > Currently I was not proposing to drop SDP but to modify the current > SDP spec for WebRTC (taking into account that AFAIK it is not yet > fulfilled). The feature I was asking for is not feasible with SDP so I > was certainly wrong, but it was not my intention to reopen the debate > about SDP yes or not. > If that was your intention, then I suggest that you provide draft text to be added to the relevant document, I assume JSEP. Note, my reading of what you raised earlier in this thread is in fact a modification of SDP O/A process, not a JSEP usage of O/A question. But, that would be clearer if you provide draft text. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 23:59:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4991A00F5 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:59:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7g_11vI6Bkh for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8331A007A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:59:55 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-73-52e8b4f853ad Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E7.58.04249.8F4B8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:59:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:59:51 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8B4F8.4000900@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:59:52 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrMJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6PLS+CDG7s0bJY+6+d3YHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGd/7H7EXzOGpeLp0G2MD4zvOLkZODgkBE4lL//+zQNhiEhfu rWfrYuTiEBI4wiix/MA8KGc5o8Sv1WfYQap4BbQlJkyaA2azCKhKTPl4H6ybTcBC4uaPRjYQ W1QgWOLWtAdQ9YISJ2c+AasREVCXuPzwAlhcGKj+1aZmIJsDaLO4RE9jEEiYWUBPYsrVFkYI W16ieetsZhBbCGhtQ1MH6wRG/llIps5C0jILScsCRuZVjBzFqcVJuelGBpsYgQF1cMtvix2M l//aHGKU5mBREuf9+NY5SEggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVAPjZJGUDdIRZk1ssy0/ 6zz2tn71+0f32kbV8DezFjHwO4u9ao6N//iP49vnsOqSoumXwq6YWNXr8WmoSPn3bQyo8lkx P3SL9BOW3VXuGveStc1/t+SdSclKP79XQ2mnG7tG71ado+m935pn+r5RfpaaGGhfkG60J3Gn 5O3fcy92/lIo0jq/4Z8SS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCyMgPX9gEAAA== Subject: [rtcweb] Potential dates for WebRTC/RTCWEB joint Interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 07:59:58 -0000 WG, The chairs of this WG and the W3C are considering an joint interim meeting. The dates we chairs have arrived as feasible are May 20-22 (Tue-Thu). We are considering to split up the time between the two WGs across all three days. So please take note of these dates in your calendar now. The target region for this interim would be East Coast of North America, but we have at this stage no host or set location. If you are willing to host, please contact the chairs. We haven't decided on this interim yet, and appreciate your input into holding one. The goals of the interim would be to advanced the state of the core documents we need to finish up. We expect that we will have some document that may have WG last call issues needing face to face time to speed up resolving them. We expect to have documents that are under development, like JSEP that will have thorny issues to deal with. Especially issues that interact with the API where we can benefit from having the W3C WG also present to come to joint conclusions. Cheers Magnus Westerlund (For the RTCWEB Chairs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From bernard.aboba@gmail.com Wed Jan 29 00:17:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B0C1A02E6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DBI7YMLnlrQq for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x22e.google.com (mail-pb0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4F81A02A0 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id um1so1457447pbc.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=VnXrONej+//njCZOpAhXLU9hHIQCJ/KHnDU98/T8hEc=; b=cjpp6vDw8ol3XoAtpQtI+m7VcqTAzAbKTrXJZJ/vKELf0VlNqnqQNiVceh2TMq13IO WmJcXOB3OtW7D3bITTsNJ1zRVSgnpwsEF7jPe/zKpCRWGAuInjW5lLGrTMMgbnEJgRVD 9anCYt9t29h+D1e9LpsWmLxzNqgcW8a0RGxDIcwshz0wT/W5R4l3w6optoGmw9me1GkH QlZRqUwCHKHdHpcTnZYC2aARDYLFhpgqsZlKUcWk7rfqaeTQLDVvzLTNI/1WB6EXoCMu A0HwZCX5QqjwMg8banicWFDg3ji5nXDVy1yrUwLBRPmeERGtCQXqfUz5k0WXAHM5wULG 45FQ== X-Received: by 10.66.122.40 with SMTP id lp8mr6655973pab.82.1390983446266; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (c-24-19-246-140.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.246.140]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ve15sm2772157pab.8.2014.01.29.00.17.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:24 -0800 (PST) References: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <52E7D92B.8000604@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5B9D7769-AD14-4601-921B-B671F4ECD9C3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11B554a) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:17:25 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw pol X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:17:30 -0000 In favor of putting it aside - but agree with Peter that the hiatus should b= e considerably longer.=20 > On Jan 28, 2014, at 8:22, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 > I have concerns that September 2014 is too soon. >=20 > It was relatively easy for the WG to choose two MTI audio codecs because O= pus was a clear winner among modern codecs (and because we had an obvious fa= llback). We have no such codec in the video space. My suggestion is to wait u= ntil we have such a codec (and, in parallel within some other WG or initiati= ve, push hard to make that happen), rather than continue the endless and fru= itless wrangling over the current options. >=20 > Peter From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 00:58:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B361C1A02A6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:58:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltHAVEQiMBQ8 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F98A1A03B8 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:58:55 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-25-52e8c2cb502f Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 76.EE.10875.BC2C8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:58:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:58:51 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8C2CA.4070406@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:58:50 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140127222521.21490.65090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrJJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7pQy+CDOZPMbFY+6+d3YHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGRvebGYtuCBW8ejnN7YGxheCXYycHBICJhIPNp9ggbDFJC7c W8/WxcjFISRwiFFi8opzjBDOckaJb0c2sINU8QpoS2z+/wvMZhFQlbjWsZURxGYTsJC4+aOR DcQWFQiWuDXtAVS9oMTJmU/ANogIiEq8fjyNFcQWFjCXOLmlB6xGSMBRYumN3UxdjBwcnAJO EsuPGoOYEgLiEj2NQSAVzAJ6ElOutjBC2PISzVtnM0N0aks0NHWwTmAUnIVk2SwkLbOQtCxg ZF7FyJ6bmJmTXm64iREYfAe3/NbdwXjqnMghRmkOFiVx3g9vnYOEBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pz UosPMTJxcEo1MPq0XXX9MDmSQ8mpzs7VSVFmVe2/Qp6FH+/nCveEmzSxyzq9b1aceu3hI/n+ GcvnvitMPxygJ3pkp4WuUF2nl8nWRA3mtIXuSaaLly6OfV6zdbX/2iLHEI9/0glnbT/4Zj6b z73pg0nO/CvW90SZ7wTvP97wvbX81VaRtMtsIc9NOnJc8qWfK7EUZyQaajEXFScCAI2LrX4M AgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:58:57 -0000 WG, I reviewed the changes introduced here resolves my previous comments. However, I have to raise one question to the WG. In Section 3: o G.711 PCMA and PCMU with one channel, a rate of 8000 Hz and any ptime value up to 120 ms - see section 4.5.14 of [RFC3551] It is likely good that one ensures that ones implementation can receive any number of samples in the RTP payload format. It is also good that one can send whatever in that range the peer requests. However, I would note that it is likely good that an implementation restrains oneself to request ptime values from the peer that are 5 ms increments and likely 20 ms increments for higher values. I have the impression that the used values are like, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 ms. Anyone having any position on this? Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-27 23:25, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements > Authors : Jean-Marc Valin > Cary Bran > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2014-01-27 > > Abstract: > This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements > for WebRTC client application and endpoint devices. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-04 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 01:02:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CA11A03B8 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:02:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CsL6IgmLfcyg for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7291A02A6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:02:03 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-3b-52e8c388bac3 Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C0.81.04249.883C8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:02:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:01:54 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8C382.2020703@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:01:54 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Chenxin (Xin)" , "Hutton, Andrew" , Christer Holmberg , Parthasarathi R , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BDDF9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <00d601cec911$b0fd4b60$12f7e220$@co.in> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE0397680826A3@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFAC8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082747@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4BFDA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17BF5B80@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <9E34D50A21D1D1489134B4D770CE039768082A1A@SZXEMA504-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52D660E4.3050103@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7H4RdBBhdX6Vls21BqcfNKL6PF 5E99rBZr/7WzO7B4tBx5y+qxZMlPJo8P87+we2zvecwSwBLFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlXFs/STm gimKFVuXHWZtYJwi2cXIySEhYCLxZdZcNghbTOLCvfVgtpDAEUaJeX1iXYxcQPZyRoln70+D JXgFtCWO9f1h6WLk4GARUJW4NdEWJMwmYCFx80cjWImoQLDErWkP2CHKBSVOznzCAjJHROAV o8SBH98ZQRLCAmESt5esZoFYsItF4ta7bcwgCU4BHYnr79cygiyQEBCX6GkMAgkzC+hJTLna wghhy0s0b53NDHGotkRDUwfrBEbBWUj2zULSMgtJywJG5lWMHMWpxUm56UYGmxiBoXtwy2+L HYyX/9ocYpTmYFES5/341jlISCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUAyNP5ky3Jbnac5n/ 3BOMlvla3vNValf5le0PdNXUGrzWsOX9ZAm0zVD364mbGRbK5HO5YCVnjoepjMuxQycmSxjs iP5g/P72Yz1vVcb0D48X1JQKMk0IMAlpU6mQnnNQMUbBR0luFof3gzOblQVWHOVKD5S18kvg /Kgjs+VxaF3op4YXGx9vU2Ipzkg01GIuKk4EALEKGPArAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:02:06 -0000 Authors, I have seen only support for this change. Please introduce it and also perform the editorial change FW -> Firewall in the text. Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-15 11:20, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > It has been quite some time since the WG last call ended and a new > revision was submitted. As Document Shepherd I want to push this > document to publication request. > > Chenxin proposed below three different sets of changes to the document. > Does the WG support making these changes? Please indicate within the > next week if you support or want to reject these changes. > > Thanks > > Magnus > > > On 2013-10-17 12:23, Chenxin (Xin) wrote: >> Hi Andy, >> >> >> >> I think you means F29 not F27:). When I read it , I realize that there >> is cross and ambiguous between 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 >> >> >> >> More details: >> >> >> >> The topic of 3.3.2 is "Simple Video Communication Service, *NAT/FW* >> that blocks UDP". But in the description and requirement, only *NAT* is >> considered. >> >> The topic of 3.3.3 is "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that >> only allows http", But only *http proxy* deployed scenarios is considered. >> >> >> >> There are other usecases " FW block UDP, incoming TCP, Http allowing >> FW without http proxy deplolyed under the permission of FW policy" , >> which is lost in the description. If we need consider these usecases , I >> suggest to make some change to the description. >> >> >> >> Proposal 1 : >> >> >> >> add FW related words to section 3.3.2 >> >> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> 3.3.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks UDP >> >> >> >> 3.3.2.1. Description >> >> >> >> This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video Communication >> >> Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of the >> >> users is behind a NAT*/FW* that blocks UDP traffic. >> >> . >> >> >> >> 3.3.2.2. Additional Requirements >> >> >> >> F29 The browser must be able to send streams and >> >> data to a peer in the presence of NATs *and FWs* that >> >> block UDP traffic ,* when FW policy allows WebRTC traffic*. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Proposal 2: If the" Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" >> case is impliedly included in F29. I suggest to change the topics of >> 3.3.3 to "Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows >> traffic via a http proxy". So the 3.3.3 is a specific case. >> >> >> >> Proposal 3: If " Http allowing FW without http proxy deployed" case >> need to be explicitly mentioned. I suggest to add some descriptions to 3.3.3 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 3.3.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows http >> >> >> >> 3.3.3.1. Description >> >> >> >> This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video Communication >> >> Service use-case (Section 3.3.1). The difference is that one of the >> >> users is behind a http allowing FW or a FW that only allows traffic >> via a HTTP Proxy. >> >> >> >> 3.3.3.2. Additional Requirements >> >> >> >> F37 The browser must be able to send streams and >> >> data to a peer in the presence of http allowing FWs or FWs >> that only >> >> allows traffic via a HTTP Proxy, when FW policy >> >> allows WebRTC traffic. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Xin >> >> >> > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 01:10:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACFB1A0364 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h_Usq12Juv5M for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273481A02A6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:10:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-6d-52e8c57691db Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F2.D0.10875.675C8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:10:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:10:14 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8C576.70600@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:10:14 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary Barnes References: <52D66687.9060204@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupnluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rrfs6IsggwkvjS0+79/PbLH2Xzu7 A5PHzll32T2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx6tJOxoL/HhVvbk1na2Dss+hi5OSQEDCR ePVlLiOELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgUOMEtc2HmaFcJYzSvxZeZUVpIpXQFPi6/kDTCA2i4CqxJvZ F1hAbDYBC4mbPxrZQGxRgWCJW9MesEPUC0qcnPkErEZEQEfi2+e3YDXMAuoSdxafA6sRFkiX +HmzGSwuJFAgMWEGSD0HB6dAoMTUNa4gpoSAuERPYxBEp57ElKstjBC2vETz1tnMEJ3aEg1N HawTGIVmIVk8C0nLLCQtCxiZVzGy5yZm5qSXG25iBAbqwS2/dXcwnjoncohRmoNFSZz3w1vn ICGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MecorTOrOFac0Wta/k2SqXGO0u1/E3eP+sfyv U+wdM/ZzPPv1yHVPq321yBSusnmLbqXJ/Z5/hGfR/19WH2wumV9UmOuzjZ3f8tqc5psMClUH Jyyom/p9vSLnjBcLeyq3L9p/KuD/brN4I+ZjIdcTZ0zkkU54qPp1/pMrOz3cD7t8e3/sf6PZ FSWW4oxEQy3mouJEAACFrzAiAgAA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Preparing for publication request of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:10:22 -0000 Hi, I have not seen any feedback on Mary's review comments. I think these are valid improvements of the document. They do not appear to me to change the meaning of the document, only clarify what is meant. I think the authors should try to incorporate these into the next revision. Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-15 21:57, Mary Barnes wrote: > I had thought I had previously done a detailed review of this doc, but I > can't find it to know whether changes suggested have been incorporated. > So, I have re-reviewed the document and I think it's almost ready to > progress. I think it needs some editorial clarifications and nits to > be fixed as summarized below. Note, I did not review the appendix. > > Regards, > Mary. > > In general, I still find the style of this document very difficult to > grok since the requirements are not grouped in categories and one has to > keep switching back and forth in the document to match requirements to > use cases. > > Questions/Comments for clarification: > ---------------------------------------------------- > 1) Section 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence. It's not clear to me that > "e.g., a telephone" is meaningful. I don't think you're intending to > interworking with a legacy PSTN connected black phone. So, it might be > more accurate to say " e.g., a mobile phone or a SIP UA". > 2) Section 3.3.1.1. Next to last paragraph. I'm not sure what you mean > by different "makes". I think you mean different types of devices > (e.g., mobile, SIP UA, etc. ). That all said, I don't think that's not > so relevant. I think simply stating different OSs and different > browsers is sufficient. > 3) Section 3.3.6.1. It's not at all clear to me why this requirement is > considered specific to WebRTC. I would think the access network changes > should be transparent to WebRTC. Certainly, the device needs to know > what's happening, but I think whether this works is entirely based on > the internals of the device and the specific access network technology, > and not WebRTC application. > 4) Section 3.3.10.1. Why is F24 not considered an additional > requirement here? Also, do you not need to have a statement as to what > other use case is the basis for this one such that the core requirements > are reference? > 5) Section 3.3.11.1, 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. I don't understand > what this is trying to say. What is meant by "enhance > intelligibility"? And, what is meant by "pans the audio from different > participants differently when rendering the audio". > [As an aside, I will note that some of the CLUE use cases likely > encompass what you are trying to communicate here in this requirements > (including subsequent paragraphs and the last "Note:"), so you may want > to look at those and use similar terminology and concepts, that CLUE > spent a lot of time developing. ] > 6) Section 3.4. I would expect F27 to be referenced by at least one of > these use cases. > 7) Section 4.2. > - General: I am a bit confused as there are requirements in this > section that aren't referenced in section 3, including F19, F23, and F27 > . Perhaps, that's because there are some missing references in section > 3 (see item 7)? If not, then why are they there. At a minimum you > should add a sentence to section 4.1 indicating that not all the > requirements are derived from the use cases (contrary to what is > currently stated). > - What's the difference between F24 and F34? > - F30. I had to read this several times to understand it due to > structure. I would suggest changing as follows: > OLD: > > F30 The browser must be able to use the screen (or > a specific area of the screen) or what a certain > application displays on the screen to generate > streams. > > NEW: > > F30 The browser must be able to generate streams using the entire user display, a specific area of the user's display or the information being displayed by a specific application. > > On this one, I also think it would be good to clarify what type of stream - are you talking about using protocol to share content or or is this just a video stream? Or would you have two separate requirement to cover both of these? > > > - F32. I can't quite grok this one. Maybe you are trying to say > something like the following? > OLD: > > F32 There browser must support that STUN and TURN > servers to use are supplied by other entities > than via the web application (i.e. the network > provider). > > NEW: > > F32 The browser must support the use of STUN and TURN > servers that are supplied by entities > other than the web application (i.e. the network > provider). > > > 8) Section 7. I have mixed feelings about leaving this list with URLs > in the document. I think it's good to highlight the use cases that > weren't incorporated and why they weren't. I think it would add a lot > more value to provide a concise summary of the reasons they weren't > added than just including links, in particular, since we usually don't > like to publish RFCs with links. > > > > > Nits: > ------ > 1) Section 1, 1st paragraph, last sentence, "at least one of the > end-user client" -> "at least one of the end-user clients" > 2) Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence: > - "retrives" -> "retrieves" > - add a section reference for "Simple Video Communication Service" > 3) Section 3.2. , next to last sentence. "retrieved from" -> "derived > from" > 4) Section 3.3.5.1, 3rd paragraph, > - 1st sentence. "session" - "session" > - 2nd sentence. "straddle the boundary between the internal network and > external." -> "straddles the boundary between the internal and external > networks. > 5) Section 3.3.5.1, 4th paragraph. "they still want to have the > traffic to stay" -> "they still want the traffic to say" > 6) Section 3.3.61. 1st paragraph. I'm not sure why this ends with ":" > 7) Section 3.3.6.1, 2nd paragraph. "device used by one of the users > have several" -> "device used by one of the users has several" > 8) Section 3.3.11.1, 1st para, 1st sentence. "In this use case is the > Simple..." -> "In this use case, the Simple...." > 9) Section 3.3.11.1 3rd from last paragraph. "use experience" -> "user > experience" > 10) Section 3.4.3.1, 2nd paragraph. "participant send" -> "participant > sends" > 11) Section 4.2: > - F35. "of that streams" -> "that streams" > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Magnus Westerlund > > > wrote: > > WG, > > This is related to: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements/ > > We have held WG last call and there has been updates to the document to > resolve the WG last call comments. It is now time to finish up this > document and request publication of it. I am the document shepherd for > this document and will prepare my write-up of the document and in that > process do the necessary reviews. > > I also asked the WG for input on two open issues that needs to be closed > prior to publication request. So please review these and provide your > input on them. > > This is your chance to verify that your comments has been addressed in > the revision. Please provide any feedback on the document within the > next week, i.e. no later than the 22 Feb. > > Note, that I will require that the WG approves of any changes in this > state, rather than any silence is approval model. So if you want some > change to go into the document at this stage there need to (rough) > consensus to introduce it and clearly shown support. > > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 01:12:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30C51A037D for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:12:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBxG_ti9X59X for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88AD1A0364 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-2a-52e8c60b78fd Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 7E.F5.23809.B06C8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:12:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:12:43 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8C60B.4020709@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:12:43 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements@tools.ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <52D7E69C.2000405@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52D7E69C.2000405@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpmluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rpfn2Isggx8drBabb05itFj7r53d gcljyZKfTB5fLn9mC2CK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mrov3GPqeCvWMWuY/1MDYxLhLoYOTgkBEwk dh5g7GLkBDLFJC7cW88GYgsJHGKU+P1ZoYuRC8hezijx7WAPE0iCV0Bb4t2pFrAiFgFVifcv 5oHF2QQsJG7+aASLiwoES9ya9oAdol5Q4uTMJywgg0QEVjBKbJjyFiwhLBAocah5JyPENm2J b33/wQZxCuhITN/1kgXiOHGJnsYgkDCzgJ7ElKstjBC2vETz1tnMMK0NTR2sExgFZyFZNwtJ yywkLQsYmVcxsucmZuaklxttYgQG5MEtv1V3MN45J3KIUZqDRUmc98Nb5yAhgfTEktTs1NSC 1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjMy5V68o3VeMcONST5evmC7dvy++K+N5yuPHyz6Jcd7zDLl9OKlB 6P/lnWv+2k9NbutfYdzocH9/jqPEnT0n21+mH7sWfbH+0oNvDO+Kjv28lHMvS+ettVXYr74T PnrWz6rzdqjxVN/8ciHmY6yK3LIN26W47316onzQ0/N3a7cb46ypFxrNE5VYijMSDbWYi4oT AW7s0z4WAgAA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:12:50 -0000 WG, I haven't seen any feedback on this. I will leave it to the authors choice if they think what I suggest are just clarification or changes. If they are changes to what is required then I request that they seek WG confirmation and if that is not provided the comments are rejected. Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-16 15:03, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > As part of preparing the Doc shepherd write-up I have reviewed the draft > and have the following comments and suggestions for improvements. > I have to note that I found violations of formal requirements in this > documents. So these are all suggestions for improvements. > > > 1. After the WG last call this draft implemented half of my suggestion > of making clear what additional requirements use case resulted in. > However, it didn't implemented the part where I suggested that on the > first occurrence of a requirement, the full requirement text needs to be > included. I note that also Mary Barnes commented on the current format > making things hard to read. > > 2. Abstract: > Requirements on the browser functionality are derived from use-cases. > > Shouldn't there be a "the" before use-cases in this sentence? > > 3. Section 3.3.8 title: > > Simple Video Communication Service with sharing > > Isn't simply having sharing in the title a bit unclear? Shouldn't this > be "Desktop" or "Application" sharing? > > 4. section 4.1: > F26 It must be possible to move from one network > interface to another one > > I think it is unclear what shall move in this requirement. Wouln't it be > clearer to state this like this? > > F26 The communication session must survive across a change of the > network interface used by the session. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 01:28:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC4B1A03B8 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:28:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hhekpJjioar for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483771A0437 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:28:56 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-da-52e8c9d473dd Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 0F.68.23809.4D9C8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:28:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.92) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:28:52 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8C9D4.30205@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:28:52 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Parthasarathi R , 'Cb B' , 'Simon Perreault' References: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A2428E32D@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <009601cf17ca$5723cb70$056b6250$@co.in> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CF32B82@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <004501cf18a1$913c4080$b3b4c180$@co.in> <52E27630.3030300@viagenie.ca> <001c01cf1920$a00c9220$e025b660$@co.in> <52E2952A.2010503@viagenie.ca> <002001cf1927$b502eb00$1f08c100$@co.in> <52E2AE42.5060903@viagenie.ca> <001701cf19ec$f99791b0$ecc6b510$@co.in> In-Reply-To: <001701cf19ec$f99791b0$ecc6b510$@co.in> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6Vky+CDKavsbFY9eUjk8XkT32s Fmv/tbNbdC/9z+LA4rFz1l12jyVLfjJ5fJj/hd1j3QfzAJYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsEroyryx8z FexSrFg1+wdjA2OLdBcjJ4eEgInEtLmzWSBsMYkL99azdTFycQgJHGKUOLTrISOEs5xR4vGL TWBVvAKaEjM+HmIGsVkEVCV2bl7JBmKzCVhI3PzRCGaLCgRL3Jr2gB2iXlDi5MwnLCCDRAQa GCUm7WthAkkwC4hKvHo4BWyQsECYxP6nJ5ggtv1gluj+v48RJMEJdN+G3XOAEhxA94lL9DQG QfQaSBxZNIcVwpaXaN46G2yOkIC2RENTB+sERqFZSHbPQtIyC0nLAkbmVYzsuYmZOenlRpsY gUF9cMtv1R2Md86JHGKU5mBREuf98NY5SEggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVAOj9bZT ViWstlozTevPq0cmcDvfPZ6kdWZVgW9utoTkjXLzsH+H+g4W7+W3Wdv0SdjTUNMhYUty8d/g Hl5WBWvbnI2ODdHXLV6cYLdguCbwm+PmK36zDMep+5/frzd6rP/W4Trj9kN8XGHKATwOTvPa 7f5ej9ly4OWnjK95HpcXHrhhfvl0+XUlluKMREMt5qLiRAAFAk0iOAIAAA== Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:28:59 -0000 Hi Partha and WG, I don't see any support for the changes you proposes in this discussion. What I see some support for is to add a statement making clear that there might be additional NAT/Firewall traversal mechanisms than STUN/TURN. Simon proposed: "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." However, looking at the document as it is currently written, I am uncertain where this would be added. The first mention of TURN is in Section 3.3.4.1, and that section is focused on the global service provider perspective and the need for location based provisioning of NAT/Firewall traversal server resources. I think it can be added to Section 3.3.5.1 without being misplaced, but it would be given a slightly narrower scope. I any of you want to be more explicit where this should be included, please be. If you are not forthcoming I will request the authors to add this in what they consider sensible position. Cheers Magnus On 2014-01-25 17:46, Parthasarathi R wrote: > Hi Simon, > > > > Thanks for your understanding about my firewall/NAT related problem > statement in this draft. > > > > I have proposed the firewall/NAT related text by which the specific > mechanism is not highlighted in the requirement document as there is no > WG consensus for any of the mechanism including TURN. It is possible to > argue hypothetically in PNTAW alias that PCP is the only mechanism > required in WebRTC endpoint. Also, I’m more interested in WebRTC > gateway/server (Sec 4.3. of > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12) requirements wherein it > is not required to support TURN and the related mail thread is > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pntaw/current/msg00181.html. > > > > IMO, my proposed text without mentioning any firewall/NAT mechanism in > the requirement document helps to move forward without depend on the > solution discussion in PNTAW alias. > > > > Thanks > > Partha > > > > *From:*Cb B [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22 AM > *To:* Simon Perreault > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org; Parthasarathi R > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Query/Comment on > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12 > > > > > On Jan 24, 2014 10:17 AM, "Simon Perreault" > wrote: >> >> Le 2014-01-24 12:14, Parthasarathi R a écrit : >> >>> Please note that when non-IETFers read this requirement document, > they come >>> to the conclusion that IETF RTCWeb WG recommends TURN and not other >>> mechanisms. I'm saying that requirement document should not be used > as the >>> mechanism to eliminate the other alternatives when there is a discussion >>> going-on in PNTAW alias. So, I'm asking for the change. >> >> >> I would totally agree with that sentiment, although I don't see your > proposed text change reflecting it accurately. How about simply: >> >> "Note that TURN support being mandatory does not preclude a WebRTC > endpoint from supporting additional traversal mechanisms." >> >> > > +1 for the above text. > > CB > >> Simon >> -- >> DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca >> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca >> STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 01:35:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259B91A0372 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:35:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zeQh_tvxOG0R for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3ABB1A037D for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-40-52e8cb662d0e Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5A.05.10875.66BC8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:35:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:35:34 +0100 Message-ID: <52E8CB66.70107@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:35:34 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements@tools.ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrLJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW766RdBBlNec1psvjmJ0WLtv3Z2 ByaPJUt+Mnl8ufyZLYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStjc28zc8FM7oprHa9YGxj7ObsYOTkkBEwk Xk29wghhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4BCjxNsVDawQznJGic8bnrKCVPEKaEoc/f0CrINFQFVi+4at TCA2m4CFxM0fjWwgtqhAsMStaQ/YIeoFJU7OfMICMkhEYAWjRMvSVcwgCWEBV4kLf14B2RxA q8UlehqDQMLMAnoSU662MELY8hLNW2eDlQsJaEs0NHWwTmDkn4Vk7CwkLbOQtCxgZF7FyJ6b mJmTXm64iREYZAe3/NbdwXjqnMghRmkOFiVx3g9vnYOEBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJx cEo1MPY6iC2ozDx1+XPZQjWdW/xTcp5IHo6wOHla59GM5ncm2qfZIp99t/4kIP5o78FYlbtX K9dwdXf3t1W/DZpa/yHWe73yysPPWq9KCfS55Kld6P5Y37Pm+nfmpPncbJd+l3ndtG088Gpm in7hp64t4YEzej2e70pLtGeJjj6Qa6l+VS+jsVjeR4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAM9MkfAAAgAA Subject: [rtcweb] Required changes to draft-ietf-use-cases-and-requirements-12 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:35:41 -0000 Hi, Reviewing the discussion regarding the use-cases-and-requirements I see a need for updating the draft. Mary Barnes and I had comments that affected the document clarity that the authors needs to consider to edit in. Also Andrew had an editorial suggestion to replace FW with Firewall in the document. There appear to exist WG support for the change proposal that Chen Xin provided. That shall be edited in. Parthas suggestion was debated and appear to lack support, although a minor note appear to be acceptable. I request the authors attempt to edit that in. Please submit a new draft version when you have performed these edits. Due to the number of edits, I will hold a one week last call on these changes prior to requesting publication. I strongly encourage that people review the new version when it is available and provide feedback, especially statements making it clear that you support the changes. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Wed Jan 29 02:18:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B1B1A0229 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:18:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0jAdqSc9XV-A for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBCB1A01BC for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:18:54 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-e5-52e8d589252d Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4F.FD.04853.985D8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:18:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.99]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:18:49 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? Thread-Index: Ac8cAngQ5gMoLtdxSK+NK5iG67ycPgANZFsAAAw8E4AAHJuukA== Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:18:48 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D149077@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D143FB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52E7D15A.4090805@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7X1RdBBr8vM1kc6+tis7i2/DWr xdp/7ewOzB5XJlxh9ViwqdRjyZKfTAHMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZs2bfZS7oEap4v7CPuYHx Kl8XIyeHhICJxPvVi1ghbDGJC/fWs3UxcnEICZxglFjw4jk7hLOYUWLR9KcsXYwcHGwCFhLd /7RBGkQEQiUeT2sCa2YW0JSYsGwXG4gtLOAicevjFxaIGleJ378bWCFsJ4nNk/Yyg9gsAqoS W/4+AqvhFfCV2LJ3JdTi7YwSn7fPA2vgFAiUODtzGyOIzQh03fdTa5gglolL3HoynwniagGJ JXvOM0PYohIvH/9jBblTQkBJYtrWNIhyHYkFuz+xQdjaEssWvmaG2CsocXLmE5YJjGKzkEyd haRlFpKWWUhaFjCyrGKULE4tLs5NNzLQy03PLdFLLcpMLi7Oz9MrTt3ECIysg1t+G+1gPLnH /hCjNAeLkjjvddaaICGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2M/Zs/LWfannlZPYHT53/n 56Q49pYVXZ/m5X7MnLb11IWnezovt5dekK2/+qVxY8HDmc3P926+zPzm9mWR/4wn/8X9S7jJ MdFx+Ztg7jiZuw+6HZ/8/BWfdb9SiHFNltE/pw8yQWoCq03FeMIFnlTn9r9u3l0ecLZrS+eR CbqiIrKnX5XpXcjYqMRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAAaHX616AgAA Cc: "" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:18:56 -0000 Thanks for the clarification, Harald & Peter! Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Thatcher Sent: 28. tammikuuta 2014 23:39 To: Harald Alvestrand Cc: Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB data channel protocol: Mandated to use? Harald is correct. If you use set "negotiated: true" in .createDataChannel= , then the OPEN message won't be sent. The JS can also specify the SID in = .createDataChannel, allowing you to use whatever form of signalling you wan= t with no in-band signalling. On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Harald Alvestrand w= rote: > On 01/28/2014 09:28 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > At the CLUE virtual interim yesterday, we discussed the usage of the=20 > RTCWEB data channel also for CLUE. It would allow us to re-use what=20 > RTCWEB has done, and it would provide interoperability between CLUE=20 > entities and RTCWEB. > > > > Q1: One question that came up is whether RTCWEB MANDATES the usage of=20 > the RTCWEB data channel protocol? OR, is it possible to simply=20 > establish two SCTP streams (as defined in=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06), and start using it? > > > My understanding has been the latter - externally negotiated data=20 > channels are explicitly permitted. > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-06 section 6.5: > > 6.5. Opening a Channel > > Data channels can be opened by using internal or external > negotiation. The details are out of scope of this document. > > A simple protocol for internal negotiation is specified in > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol] and MUST be supported. > > > "MUST be supported" is not the same as "MUST be used". > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From ode@tid.es Wed Jan 29 03:54:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6D01A038E for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 03:54:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w1QCj0hr0ZCE for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 03:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tidos.tid.es (tidos.tid.es [195.235.93.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A63E1A01EF for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 03:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbrightmailg01.hi.inet (sbrightmailg01.hi.inet [10.95.64.104]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0N0500MTBVQ2OB@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from dequeue_removeroute (tid.hi.inet [10.95.64.10]) by sbrightmailg01.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id C3.DF.03314.ADBE8E25; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0N0500MT3VQ2OB@tid.hi.inet> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.53]) by EX10-HTCAS6-MAD.hi.inet ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:56:35 +0000 From: OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Message-id: Content-id: <794BDEDCC965D648B143802A19A67A27@hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Accept-Language: ca-ES, es-ES, en-US Thread-topic: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll Thread-index: AQHPG+fPeszKRu17lEGf41LiCp77fJqbmceA user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.6.130613 X-AuditID: 0a5f4068-b7fe58e000000cf2-32-52e8ebda0b6c X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhinfg0r31+kWQQcMvC4u1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVsfXSa/aCVcIV6499Z29gfM7fxcjJISFgInFnZTMThC0mceHe erYuRi4OIYEDjBKXd59jgXB+MEpcPXsYypnGKLFx72M2kBYWAVWJZ29esIPYbALqEjcufmMB sYWBxrYc/AA2llPASmJF1xQ2iBUKEn/OPQarEQGqv/zwAlgvs4CyxOcDp8BsXqD4r88nmCHi ZhIvnh1jhYgLSvyYfI8FIq4j0fv9G1SNuERz602ouLbEk3cXwOoZBVQkft2ayQ6xy1Siq3sf E4RtJHF5XRNYjaiAnkT3rOWsELcJSCzZc54ZwhaVePn4H+sERolZSM6YheSMWUjOmIXkjFlI zljAyLqKUaw4qSgzPaMkNzEzJ93AUC8jUy8zL7VkEyMk8jJ2MC7fqXKIUYCDUYmHd8XF50FC rIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHiTX7wIEuJNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsTIxMEp1cC47k2C446k+F0HMnfJ ZK3+NDtthxnzilh9Z2k2xl135K3K/yukvb9+3Pto1HNXQYXHTGv2x8nvuXHob2ZlON/jrp6/ lkzn367RKos8ufvUp8AZ22xOzL28b4nMZU6Wh4dsLflWF5rdZL6sY87UdlPItXVFDb9nv4VV 0gY3PinTc8bht3MdJ89UYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAM8MY2JoCAAA= Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:54:10 -0000 +1 =D2scar On 28/01/14 6.13, "Cullen Jennings" wrote: > >Dear WG, > >After reviewing the poll results found here: >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the >chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is >required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of >options which did not garner significant support; essentially only >options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the >eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the >other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working >group activity or discussion. > >There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious >support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting >positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half the >participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being >able to choose between them at this time. > >The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to >implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 >meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus its >energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the video >document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, but >initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus >for MTI. > >When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently >expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory >to implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new >information or working group experience. > >If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, >2014 please let us know by February 4. > >Thank you, > >Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx From agouaillard@gmail.com Wed Jan 29 06:06:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173FF1A03CB for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:06:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4W0Ud3W5nlOH for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x22a.google.com (mail-oa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7A31A03BF for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i7so2071479oag.1 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:05:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Fnw1JXvPQWbPPNPpQeeyIgfKJoldQTLOuFlrpVhrjlM=; b=ZuraD0aaqhlh4QdhY5XAOMeqXgm9rRheX1Bb3vMrkPHrFUjHsUcr48WPOvvkvCAAOb J9BMQ2z3NqmyhdYlQfymmjcPJtT7x4DkhomoCZHZ7KszOVUnscfwRpINNfYUadwb73lw kjJiEUXaU0JyDg0K46EM+bfQJ9kZGeCXnMNGnQljj0mr9Yl0yzqFxvSfLTLTU3BYAkLr bTWObFdoQ0+bA2Lj0e63aJRdu2ko9u8OrruSKcTsdBeBFn7MRkmdPEv3f6oFebtyd6wj clzQuBqWRCOfGldrm/Iou+eMFaFmTSLIo0ZGv19VK1OSSthUtcrMP7QF4V0lDK8w1Y/k /mXw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.223.114 with SMTP id qt18mr1329800obc.61.1391004348887; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.183.6.227 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:05:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:05:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alexandre GOUAILLARD To: OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044280c018b84204f11c702b Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codecs and the staw poll X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:06:00 -0000 --f46d044280c018b84204f11c702b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:56 AM, OSCAR DIVORRA ESCODA wrote: > +1 > > > =D2scar > > > On 28/01/14 6.13, "Cullen Jennings" wrote: > > > > >Dear WG, > > > >After reviewing the poll results found here: > >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf th= e > >chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is > >required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. There are a number of > >options which did not garner significant support; essentially only > >options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the > >eventual basis of working group consensus. The chairs do not view the > >other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working > >group activity or discussion. > > > >There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious > >support for selecting both. Each has similar numbers of supporting > >positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half th= e > >participants in the straw poll. Given that, we are no closer to being > >able to choose between them at this time. > > > >The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to > >implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 91 > >meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus it= s > >energy on completing other work. We do expect to begin work on the vide= o > >document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, bu= t > >initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensus > >for MTI. > > > >When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently > >expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandatory > >to implement. This expectation may change, however, based on new > >information or working group experience. > > > >If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29, > >2014 please let us know by February 4. > > > >Thank you, > > > >Cullen, Magnus, Ted > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >rtcweb mailing list > >rtcweb@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > ________________________________ > > Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar > nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el= enlace > situado m=E1s abajo. > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and > receive email on the basis of the terms set out at: > http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --=20 Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- CTO - Temasys Communications, S'pore / Mountain View President - CoSMo Software, Cambridge, MA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- sg.linkedin.com/agouaillard - --f46d044280c018b84204f11c702b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    +1



    =
    On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:56 AM, OSCAR DIVORRA E= SCODA <ode@tid.es> wrote:
    +1


    =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =D2scar


    On 28/01/14 6.13, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

    >
    >Dear WG,
    >
    >After reviewing the poll results found here:
    >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/cu= rrent/pdfWd2PIhOY9y.pdf the
    >chairs concludes that the working group still believes that an MTI is >required for the WebRTC ecology to develop. =A0 =A0There are a number o= f
    >options which did not garner significant support; essentially only
    >options 1, 2, 3, 4 seem to have enough support that they might be the >eventual basis of working group consensus. =A0The chairs do not view th= e
    >other options as having sufficient support to warrant further working >group activity or discussion.
    >
    >There is no obvious leader between VP8 and H.264, however, nor obvious<= br> >support for selecting both. =A0Each has similar numbers of supporting >positions and objections, and both have the support of well over half t= he
    >participants in the straw poll. =A0Given that, we are no closer to bein= g
    >able to choose between them at this time.
    >
    >The chairs therefore propose tabling the discussion of a mandatory to >implement video codec until about 6 week before the start of the IETF 9= 1
    >meeting in November 2014. This is so that the working group can focus i= ts
    >energy on completing other work. =A0We do expect to begin work on the v= ideo
    >document (draft-ietf-rtcweb-video) to meet its milestone of December, b= ut
    >initially without specifying which of the two codecs is the WG consensu= s
    >for MTI.
    >
    >When we return to the discussion, the working group chairs currently >expect to run a consensus call on support for each codec to be mandator= y
    >to implement. =A0This expectation may change, however, based on new
    >information or working group experience.
    >
    >If anyone has concerns about tabling this discussion until September 29= ,
    >2014 please let us know by February 4.
    >
    >Thank you,
    >
    >Cullen, Magnus, Ted <the chairs>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >_______________________________________________
    >rtcweb mailing list
    >rtcweb@ietf.org
    >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


    ________________________________

    Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo.
    This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at:
    = http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
    ___________________________________= ____________
    rtcweb mailing list
    rtcweb@ietf.org
    = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



    --
    =
    Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA
    ----------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------
    CT= O - Temasys Communications, S'pore / Mountain View
    President - CoSMo Software, Cambridge, MA
    ------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------------
    sg.linke= din.com/agouaillard