From nobody Tue May 1 09:51:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B521273B1; Tue, 1 May 2018 09:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fYq_2ydNOX0; Tue, 1 May 2018 09:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccs.nrl.navy.mil (mx0.ccs.nrl.navy.mil [IPv6:2001:480:20:118:118::211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 862BC12DB6B; Tue, 1 May 2018 09:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ashurbanipal.fw5540.net (fw5540.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.196.100]) by ccs.nrl.navy.mil (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w41GpYGu026400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 May 2018 12:51:35 -0400 From: Catherine Meadows Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF1DCCAE-3956-4F8B-84AC-4FE6DA232327" Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 12:51:34 -0400 Message-Id: <8B342EAB-8678-4FC4-B793-3BEA944AC523@nrl.navy.mil> To: secdir@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-actn-framework.all@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-CCS-MailScanner: No viruses found. X-CCS-MailScanner-Info: See: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/ccs/support/email Archived-At: Subject: [secdir] SECDIR Review of draft-ietf-teas-actn-framework-13 X-BeenThere: secdir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 16:51:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AF1DCCAE-3956-4F8B-84AC-4FE6DA232327 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's=20 ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the=20 IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the=20 security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat=20 these comments just like any other last call comments. The summary of the review is Ready with Nits. This draft describes a framework for abstraction and control of traffic = engineered networks (ACTN). According to the abstract, a traffic engineered network is a network = that =20 uses any connection-oriented technology under the control of a = distributed or centralized control plane to support dynamic provisioning of end-to-end = connectivity. Abstraction in this context is a technique can be applied across a = single or multiply domains to create a single virtualized network under the control of a network = operator or owner. This is thus a very broad topic, and the ID is informational only. The = most important part is probably the description of the ACTN base architecture. It describes = three components: the Customer Network Controller (CNC) responsible for communicating the customer=E2=80=99s requirements to the network = provider , the=20 Multi-Domain Servicing Coordinator (MDSC), responsible for implementing = ACTN functions, and the Provisioning Network Controller (PNC), responsible for configuration and topology management. It also describes = as the interfaces between them. The document also gives a description of some more advanced ACTN architectures, a description of several topology abstraction methods, and an example = of an advanced ACTN application: a multi-destination servers. =20 The security considerations section, while it lists some general = considerations that would hold for any kind of network, mainly concentrates on the two interfaces = between the components: the CNC-MDSC (CMI) and the MDSC-PNC (MPI) = interfaces. It gives a good overview of the types of security risks that might arise = with respect to the two interfaces, and the means for mitigating them. For the rest, it defers security = considerations to the specific applications, which I assume would be handled by other working groups. I believe that this = is reasonable for an informational document that is providing a general framework.=20 A nit: I couldn=E2=80=99t parse the last sentence of Section 9.3: =20 Which MDSC the PNC exports topology information to, and the level of detail (full or abstracted) should also be authenticated and specific access restrictions and topology views, should be configurable and/or policy-based. I think it may be the commas are misplaced, and what you really want to = say is this: =20 Which MDSC the PNC exports topology information to, and the level of detail (full or abstracted), should also be authenticated, and specific access restrictions and topology views should be configurable and/or policy-based. Cathy Meadows =20 Catherine Meadows Naval Research Laboratory Code 5543 4555 Overlook Ave., S.W. Washington DC, 20375 phone: 202-767-3490 fax: 202-404-7942 email: catherine.meadows@nrl.navy.mil = --Apple-Mail=_AF1DCCAE-3956-4F8B-84AC-4FE6DA232327 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I have reviewed this document = as part of the security directorate's 
ongoing = effort to review all IETF documents being processed by = the 
IESG.  These comments were written = primarily for the benefit of the 
security = area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should = treat 
these comments just like any other last = call comments.

The summary of the review is Ready with Nits.

This draft describes a framework for = abstraction and control of traffic engineered networks (ACTN).
According to the abstract, a traffic engineered network is a = network that  
uses any connection-oriented = technology under the control of a distributed or
centralized control plane to support dynamic provisioning of = end-to-end connectivity.
Abstraction in this = context is a technique can be applied across a single or multiply = domains
to create a single virtualized network = under the control of a network operator or owner.
This is thus a very broad topic, and the ID is informational = only. The most important part
is probably the = description of the ACTN base architecture.  It describes three = components: the Customer Network Controller (CNC) responsible
for communicating the customer=E2=80=99s requirements to the = network provider , the 
Multi-Domain Servicing = Coordinator (MDSC), responsible for implementing ACTN functions, and the = Provisioning Network Controller (PNC),
responsible = for configuration and topology management. It also describes as the = interfaces between them.  The document also gives
a description of some more advanced ACTN = architectures,
a description of  several = topology abstraction methods, and an example of an advanced ACTN = application: a multi-destination servers.
  

The security considerations section, while it lists some = general considerations that would
hold for any kind = of network, mainly concentrates on the two interfaces between the = components: the CNC-MDSC (CMI) and the MDSC-PNC (MPI) = interfaces.
It gives a good overview of the types = of security risks that might arise with respect to the two = interfaces,
and the means for mitigating them. =  For the rest, it defers security considerations to the specific = applications, which
I assume would be handled by = other working groups.  I believe that this is reasonable for an = informational document
that is providing a general = framework. 

A nit:

I couldn=E2=80=99t parse the last sentence of Section = 9.3:

 
   Which MDSC the PNC exports topology information = to, and the level of
   detail (full or = abstracted) should also be authenticated and
  =  specific access restrictions and topology views, should = be
   configurable and/or = policy-based.

I think it may be the commas are misplaced, and what you = really want to say is this:

 
   Which MDSC the PNC = exports topology information to, and the level of
   detail (full or abstracted), should also be = authenticated, and
   specific access = restrictions and topology views should be
  =  configurable and/or policy-based.



Cathy Meadows
 
Catherine Meadows
Naval Research = Laboratory
Code 5543
4555 Overlook Ave., = S.W.
Washington DC, 20375
phone: = 202-767-3490
fax: 202-404-7942
email: catherine.meadows@nrl.navy.mil

= --Apple-Mail=_AF1DCCAE-3956-4F8B-84AC-4FE6DA232327-- From nobody Tue May 1 11:37:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE27E12E9D9; Tue, 1 May 2018 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BacXraMRfzze; Tue, 1 May 2018 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DF92126B6D; Tue, 1 May 2018 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2906ABE956D16; Tue, 1 May 2018 19:37:38 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 1 May 2018 19:37:39 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.34]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.239]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 1 May 2018 11:37:35 -0700 From: Leeyoung To: Catherine Meadows , "secdir@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-teas-actn-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: SECDIR Review of draft-ietf-teas-actn-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHT4Wy2Hsu3pCw+EEKp0Sy+v2VlCqQbMv9w Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 18:37:34 +0000 Message-ID: <7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E173CFE4EA5@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: 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--00000000000096594f056b329c56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document describes risk of using "early" (from a TLS 1.3 perspective) data for HTTP and defines a mechanism for clients to communicate with servers about such "early" data usage. a) For the Early-data field processing, the memo states: "The "Early-Data" header field is not intended for use by user agents (that is, the original initiator of a request). ... A user agent that sends a request in early data does not need to include the "Early-Data" header field " - would it make sense to either forbid ("MUST NOT send the "Early-Data" header field) or at least recommend against it ("SHOULD NOT send the Early-Data field")? b) I am probably missing something here: "A server cannot make a request that contains the Early-Data header field safe for processing by waiting for the handshake to complete" - if the origin server always wait for successful TLS handshake completion, why would it not be safe to process the early data at that point? Nits: - Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "application" - In Section 3, step 3, it is stated that: "If the server receives multiple requests in early data, it can determine whether to defer HTTP processing on a per-request basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated that: "Note that a server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at the TLS layer. TLS only permits a server to accept all early data, or none of it" - I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can selectively defer processing), but it is a bit confusing. - The attack in Section 4 is outlined as follows: "An attacker sends early data to one server instance that accepts and processes the early data, but allows that connection to proceed no further. The attacker then forwards the same messages from the client to another server instance that will reject early data. The client then retries the request, resulting in the request being processed twice." This seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, before the client has sent the first message, that it is what the client will send? Is the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted from the client? If so, suggest making that clear. Thanks, -- Magnus --00000000000096594f056b329c56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have reviewe= d this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to= review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were= written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.=C2=A0 Do= cument editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any othe= r last call comments.

This d= ocument describes risk of using "early" (from a TLS 1.3 perspecti= ve) data for HTTP and defines a mechanism for clients to communicate with s= ervers about such "early" data usage. 
a) For the Early-data field processing, the memo states: &=
quot;The "Early-Data" header field is not intended for use by use=
r agents   (that is, the original initiator of a request). ...  A user agen=
t that sends a request in early data does not need   to include the "E=
arly-Data" header field

" - would it make sense to either forbid ("MUST NOT send the &quo=
t;Early-Data" header field) or at least recommend against it ("SH=
OULD NOT send the Early-Data field")?

b) I am probab=
ly missing something here: "A server cannot make a request that contai=
ns the Early-Data header   field safe for processing by waiting for the han=
dshake to complete" - if the origin server always wait for successful =
TLS handshake completion, why would it not be safe to process the early dat=
a at that point?

<=
/div>
Nits:
-=
 Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "application=
"
- In Section 3, step 3, it is st=
ated that: "If the server receives multiple requests in early data, it=
 can       determine whether to defer HTTP processing on a per-request     =
  basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated that: "Note that a =
server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at   the TLS layer.  =
TLS only permits a server to accept all early data,   or none of it" -=
 I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can selective=
ly defer processing), but it is a bit confusing.
- The attack in Section=
 4 is outlined as follows:
 "An attacker sends early data to one server instance that   accepts a=
nd
 processes the early data, but allows that connection to   proceed no=20
further.  The attacker then forwards the same messages   from the client
 to another server instance that will reject early   data.  The client=20
then retries the request, resulting in the request   being processed twice.=
"
This
 seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, before the=20
client has sent the first message, that it is what the client will send?
 Is the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted from=
=20
the client? If so, suggest making that clear. 



Thanks, 
-- Magnus







--00000000000096594f056b329c56--


From nobody Tue May  1 23:40:43 2018
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Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 08:40:35 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau 
To: Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nystr=F6m?= 
Cc: secdir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-httpbis-replay@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-replay
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Hello Magnus,

first, thanks for your review.

I'm having a few responses to some of your questions below :

On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 01:46:42AM -0400, Magnus Nystrm wrote:
> a) For the Early-data field processing, the memo states: "The "Early-Data"
> header field is not intended for use by user agents (that is, the original
> initiator of a request). ... A user agent that sends a request in early
> data does not need to include the "Early-Data" header field " - would it
> make sense to either forbid ("MUST NOT send the "Early-Data" header field)
> or at least recommend against it ("SHOULD NOT send the Early-Data field")?

Not necessarily, as we could expect that some clients could find some
benefit in doing so (for example, proxies implemented by chaining a
server and a client, using a standard client library, and indicating
their ability to replay a request by setting this field when they
received the initial request using early data). I'm not saying there
is a valid case in sight, however there doesn't appear to be any
downside in doing so, so we'd rather not prevent interesting use cases
from emerging.

> b) I am probably missing something here: "A server cannot make a request
> that contains the Early-Data header field safe for processing by waiting
> for the handshake to complete" - if the origin server always wait for
> successful TLS handshake completion, why would it not be safe to process
> the early data at that point?

No, because the request might have been received over early data by a
previous reverse proxy which itself uses TLS and early data to reach
the server. A typical use case will be a CDN frontend using early data
with the client and with the origin server. If the CDN presents an
Early-Data header field, the server knows that the request is unsafe
regardless of its own connection's state.

> Nits:
> - Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "application"
> - In Section 3, step 3, it is stated that: "If the server receives multiple
> requests in early data, it can determine whether to defer HTTP processing
> on a per-request basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated that: "Note
> that a server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at the TLS
> layer. TLS only permits a server to accept all early data, or none of it" -
> I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can
> selectively defer processing), but it is a bit confusing.

Probably that we need to refine the wording. The point in section 3 was
to make it clear that early data may affect multiple requests (pipelining,
HTTP/2 multiplexing), and point 4 tries to clarify the fact that the TLS
layer provides you a data stream, part of which was received as early
data, and that the server has no choice but to consume them all or reject
them all.

> - The attack in Section 4 is outlined as follows: "An attacker sends early
> data to one server instance that accepts and processes the early data, but
> allows that connection to proceed no further. The attacker then forwards
> the same messages from the client to another server instance that will
> reject early data. The client then retries the request, resulting in the
> request being processed twice."
> This seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, before the
> client has sent the first message, that it is what the client will send? Is
> the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted from the
> client? If so, suggest making that clear.

Indeed, that was based on intercepted and replayed traffic. With an
individual hat, I agree that the example is a bit conflated. But the
point here was mostly to expose the risks that could happen by lazy
implementations that would take some shortcuts (like automatically
retrying on timeout for a client or a server accepting to process
unsafe early-data requests).

Thanks,
Willy


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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis-07
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I have published a -08 with these changes.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Migault 
> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 12:24 PM
> To: secdir@ietf.org
> Cc: spasm@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis.all@ietf.org
> Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis-07
>=20
> Reviewer: Daniel Migault
> Review result: Has Nits
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
>=20
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's =
ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security =
area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
> just like any other last call comments.
>=20
> The summary of the review is Has Minor Nits
>=20
>=20
> Please find my comments while reading the draft.
>=20
> Yours,
>=20
> Daniel
>=20
>=20
> 1.  Introduction
>=20
> As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides for message
>    compression.
>=20
> maybe :
> As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides message
>    compression.
>=20

Done

>=20
> 1.3.  Conventions Used in This Document
>=20
> The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5
>    RSA signature or encryption algorithms even when not qualified as
>    such.
>=20
> I am not sure format would not be more appropriated than algorithm, so
> maybe:
>=20
> The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5
>    RSA signature or encryption *format* even when not qualified as
>    such.

Interesting observation.  In all of the work that I have ever done I =
have always referred to the difference between PKCS #v1.5 signature, =
PKCS #v1.5 encryption, OAEP, PSS and KEM and different encryption =
algorithms rather than just saying that the formats are different.  =
Saying format would make a degree of sense between the two different 1.5 =
algorithms, however if you compare v1.5 signature and PSS then more than =
just the format of the data can be thought of as being involved.

I don't think that this makes sense.
>=20
>=20
> 2.3.  KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier
>=20
> When ECDH ephemeral-static is used, a key wrap algorithm is also
>    specified in the KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier [RFC5652].  The
>    underlying encryption functions for the key wrap and content
>    encryption algorithm ([RFC3370] and [RFC3565]) and the key sizes =
for
>    the two algorithms MUST be the same (e.g., AES-128 key wrap =
algorithm
>    with AES-128 content encryption algorithm).
>=20
> I understand the recommendation for a sending agent, but it seems that
> additional text should be provided in order to describe the behavior =
of the
> receiver. I am wondering if the receiver is expected to reject the =
message or
> whether it should assume the associated protection is the least of the =
two.
> Maybe specifying this is only for sending agent may also clarify this.

This probably falls under the category of "I don't care", the object is =
to make sending agents do the right thing.  However, I have added test =
about security strengths for reciepents.

>=20
> 2.4.4.  AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
>=20
> This content type does not provide
>    authentication or non-repudiation.
>=20
> is a really helpful clarification ;-) Maybe it could be helpful to use =
the same
> formulation for section 2.4.2.  SignedData Content Type by
> replacing:
>=20
> Applying a
>    signature to a message provides authentication, message integrity,
>    and non-repudiation of origin.
>=20
>=20
> This content type provides provides authentication, message integrity, =
and
> non-repudiation of origin. A sender signs the message with its own =
private
> key and shares public part of it with the recipient to validate the =
signature.

I don't think this necessary for the other content types.  The problem =
is that many people think that AED algorithms automatically provide =
authentication.  There are some situations where this is true, but they =
are not met when doing S/MIME.

>=20
> 2.5.  Attributes and the SignerInfo Type
>=20
> It would probably ease the reading and clarifying the purpose of the
> SignerInfo's attribute. Typically, some of them might necessary to =
validate
> the received message, while others are informational in prevision of a
> response. This is clarified later in the document but could be =
introduced
> here. I also believe that would be good to also include that there is =
a
> bootstrapping issue that is solved by the compliance of the =
implementations
> in supporting the recommended algorithms.
>=20
> A reference to section 2.7 may be useful as this section clarifies how =
the
> sending agent uses these information - at least for the encryption.

I have added the following sentence to the first paragraph

These attributes can be required for processing of message (i.e. Message =
Digest), information the signer supplied (i.e. SMIME Capabilities) that =
should be processed, or attributes which are not relevant in the current =
situation (i.e. mlExpansionList  for mail =
viewers).

I don't think a forward reference to 2.7 would be useful at this point.

>=20
> 2.5.1.  Signing Time Attribute
>=20
> The message originator has not been specified before, it may be good =
to
> clarify how it differs from the sender. It may also be good to specify =
how this
> value is being used - against replay attacks.  section 2.7.1 provides =
some
> indications of the expected usage of the signing time attribute but it =
seems
> more associated to the capabilities.

Replaced message originator with signer.

>=20
> 2.5.2.  SMIME Capabilities Attribute
>=20
> A client does not have to list every capability it
>    supports, and need not list all its capabilities so that the
>    capabilities list doesn't get too long.
>=20
> It might be worth providing a recommendation on what too long means,
> especially as a resulting list of capabilities is (expected) to be =
relatively short
> compared to the message itself - but I might be wrong.
> My reading of this attribute - and again I might be wrong - is that it =
would be
> useless if implementations would follow the cryptographic
> recommendations.  It is mostly useful to have non updated senders to
> received responses from up-to-date responders. In addition, this
> information is likely cached and as such may not be unnecessarily be
> repeated. Wouldn't a MAY be more appropriated ?

I don't really want to try and quantify what long means because for =
different clients it can mean different things.  In some considerations =
one could consider listing 3 encryption algorithms to be long while in =
other situations it might be 30 encryption algorithms that is too long.  =
If I want to send you a message and need to be sure that there is a =
common enabled language then 30 encryption algorrithms is better.  On =
the other hand trying to figure out a common algorithm for a message =
going to 100 recipients where each has a different set of algorithms and =
in a different ranking order and come up with the best one means even 3 =
can feel really long.

The problem is not byte count as even 30 items at 10 bytes apiece is =
only 300 bytes which relative to the rest of a signed MIME message is =
pretty small.  The problem is the question of how to make a decision and =
the parameters are different based on how that algorithm is implemented.

While the information can be cached, I don't know that it can be assured =
to be cached.  Additionally this might put a greater burden on the =
sender as it would need to know if the current configuration has been =
sent to a recipient.  It is easier to just always send the list.  =
However I cannot see that there is any requirements on the document on =
having sending the attribute just on receiving it.


>=20
> Note also that while we have some cryptographic recommendations for =
RSA,
> I would have expected a table summarizing the cryptographic
> recommendations with other algorithms than RSA.

I don't know that adding a table is going to be useful.  Much of this =
information is not really designed to be put into a table unless you are =
going to footnote the heck out of it which kind of defeats the process.  =
This information is scattered through out the document, but it tries to =
be in the right place for a specific field.

>=20
> 2.5.3.  Encryption Key Preference Attribute
>=20
>  This attribute is designed to
>    enhance behavior for interoperating with those clients that use
>    separate keys for encryption and signing.
>=20
> Maybe that would be good to position this attribute versus the =
keyusage
> when certificate are used to split the usage of each keys. I am =
wondering if a
> recommendation could be state on whether one or both means should be
> used and if one overwrite the other.  A preference may still be useful =
to
> indicate a preference when multiple keys for a given role are =
available. Is key
> management a relevant usage for preference ?
>=20
> I understand that Signing Time is being used to update the preferred
> keys as one way to performed key roll over.

While there is some similarity between key usage and this attribute, the =
attribute is more general and allows for things which are not =
necessarily mentioned here.  As an example, one could send different =
certificates with different algorithms or key sizes and express a =
preference on which certificate to use.  It may be that the names =
between the signing certificate and encryption key certificate are not =
the same, in that case which should be used.    I think that this is =
covered in the introduction and a reference to key usage is not really =
helpful.

>=20
>=20
> 3.1.  Preparing the MIME Entity for Signing, Enveloping, or =
Compressing
>=20
>  A MIME entity can be a sub-
>    part, sub-parts of a message, or the whole message with all its =
sub-
>    parts.
>=20
> I am wondering if "a subpart, many subparts or ..." would not be =
clearer.

I don't see this as being clearer.

>=20
> I understand that "message" in the first paragraph is used as the MIME
> message and in other words, the message is not designating the mail. I =
am
> reading message as MIME multi-part message and the MIME entities as a
> subset of MIME headers and parts of MIME multi-part message. Similarly
> MIME body would be the MIME multi-part message.  Is that correct ? I
> believe the terminology paragraph could be clarified.

There is no requirement that message be multi-part, it could be a =
single-part message such as text/plain.  However that is generally =
correct.  How do you believe that the text can be clarified.  Specific =
text would be helpful.

>=20
>=20
>  It is
>    RECOMMENDED that a distinction be made between the location of the
>    header.
>=20
> I believe the purpose is to make a distinction between "protected" and
> 'unprotected' to the end user. I would thus keep this distinction even =
though
> this translates into 'inner' / 'outer'.

The problem of how to do this has been a topic of many discussions =
without ever getting to a conclusion.  One of the problems is that =
protected can mean some different things depending on how you protect =
the headers.  For example, one could have a multipart/mixed message with =
two sections each of which consists of an encrypted message.  If each of =
those has different protected headers in them then, while the difference =
between inner and outer makes sense as that is part of the tree =
structure, which set of protected headers now needs to be dealt with.

>=20
>=20
> 3.3.  Creating an Enveloped-Only Message
>=20
>=20
> A sample message would be:
>=20
>    Content-Type: application/pkcs7-mime; name=3Dsmime.p7m;
>            smime-type=3Denveloped-data
>=20
> Shouldn't we use an OID instead of data for the example ?

I don't know what you are trying to ask here. =20

>=20
>=20
>=20
> 3.4.  Creating an Authenticated Enveloped-Only Message
>=20
> I believe the word "proof" is missing.
>=20
>  It is important to note that
>    sending authenticated enveloped messages does not provide for
>    origination when using S/MIME.
>=20
> Maybe we should specify that this is especially true when multiple =
recipients
> are involved.

done

>=20
> 3.5.3.  Signing Using the multipart/signed Format
>=20
>  The first part contains
>    the MIME entity that is signed; the second part contains the
>    "detached signature" CMS SignedData object in which the
>    encapContentInfo eContent field is absent.
>=20
> I believe it would be good to specify parts are ordered as this is not =
always
> the case of parts. What is unclear to me is why the second part is =
separated
> by a boundary usually used to separate parts. It seems boundary can =
also be
> used as boundary inside a part which seems to make part parsing =
harder.

The order is part of the definition of multipart/signed.

In the definition of multipart/*, the rules require that the boundary =
string not exist within any of the different child body parts.  This =
means that it can be used to uniquely distinguish the boundaries.

>=20
>=20
>=20
> 3.5.3.2.  Creating a multipart/signed Message
>=20
>     Algorithm Value Used
>     MD5       md5
>     SHA-1     sha-1
>     SHA-224   sha-224
>     SHA-256   sha-256
>     SHA-384   sha-384
>     SHA-512   sha-512
>     Any other (defined separately in algorithm profile or "unknown" if
>               not defined)
>=20
>=20
> Should we have any recommendations on the hash algorithm to be used by
> sender / receivers ? Is that possible to deprecate MD5, SHA-1 and
> SHA-224 for senders ?

The recommendations on which algorithms to use is part of the signature =
algorithm recommendations.  This is a different table and removing items =
would be potentially harmful.=20

>=20
>=20
> 3.7.  Multiple Operations
>=20
> Would it be recommended to have signed clear text than encrypted and
> then signed encrypted  ? This seems to address all security concerns.

There are a large number of security concerns that have been uncovered =
with each of the different orders of operations.  Part of the question =
is going to be what concern are you trying to address and what are the =
informal rules about this.  I don't think at this point we can really =
give an order, however RFC 2634 does have some guidance.

>=20
> 3.9.  Registration Requests
>=20
> Should we mention DANE rfc8162 as a way to register you public key ?

I don't think so, we don=E2=80=99t ever talk about how to find keys in =
the document.

>=20
> 4.  Certificate Processing
>=20
> EdDSA Signatures recommendations for curve25519 and curve448 seems to
> be missing in the key pair generating , signature section. Are there =
any
> reasons not to consider these curves ?
>=20
> May be useful to have the following references:
> [1] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-cms-eddsa-signatures/
> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-pkix/

Should have had [1] as a reference, the reference was there but not the =
pointer to it.
The second would be referenced in rfc5750-bis not here.

>=20
> 6.  Security Considerations
>=20
> I am wondering if any considerations should be provided for data at =
rest.
> Does the email needs to be archived encrypted or not and whether =
S/MIME
> can be used to store encrypted content. I believe that email should =
not be
> stored encrypted and as such S/MIME is only intended to
> protect mails in transit....  but I might be wrong.

I believe you to be wrong.  There are no problems w/ using S/MIME as a =
data at rest protection scheme.  The question of storing messages as =
encrypted or not is something that different clients have dealt with in =
different ways.  The client I use leaves things encrypted which I =
consider to be the correct answer.

>=20
> As a general comment I would have like a table that summarizes or =
explicitly
> mention what crypto is recommended for encrypting / signing.
> RSA is being discussed, but ECDSA EdDSA, ECDH, hash... are not. I =
believe
> such tables should be updated regularly to deprecate  and introduce =
new
> algorithms while leaving S/MIME unchanged.

To do this would require that the algorithms be maintained in a separate =
document.  As above, I don't think a separate table adds to clarity as =
it duplicates information and would be hard to write.

>=20
> There are a lot of double space in the text.
>=20


Jim



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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Miller 
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:30 AM
> To: secdir@ietf.org
> Cc: spasm@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org; =
ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
>=20
> Reviewer: Matthew Miller
> Review result: Has Nits
>=20
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's =
ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  =
These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
> just like any other last call comments.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> Reviewer: Matthew A. Miller
> Review Date: 2018-04-21
> IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27
> IESG Telechat date: N/A
>=20
> Summary:
>=20
> This document is ready, but there is one nit around PKCS #6 handling =
that
> might benefit from explanation.
>=20
> This document describes the certificate handling expectations for =
senders
> and receivers of S/MIME 4.0.  It obsoletes RFC 5750, adding =
requirements to
> support internationalized email addresses, increase RSA minimum key =
sizes,
> and support ECDSA using P-256 and Ed25519; older algorithms such as =
DSA,
> MD5, and SHA-1 are relegated to historical.
>=20
> Major Issues: N/A
>=20
> Minor Issues: N/A
>=20
> Nits:
>=20
> Section 2.2.1. "Historical Note about CMS Certificates" is almost =
entired
> unchanged, but added a requirement that receivers MUST be able to =
process
> PCKS #6 extended certificates.  This almost seems at odds with the =
rest of
> the paragraph that precedes this MUST, noting PKCS #6 has little use =
and
> PKIX is functionally equivalent.
> A short explanation of why this additional handling requirement would =
seem
> helpful.

How about the following which is just a description of what we are =
looking for in terms of behavior.

   Receiving agents MUST be able to parser and process a message =
containing PKCS #6 extended certificates although ignoring those =
certificates is expected behavior.




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From: Martin Thomson 
Date: Thu, 03 May 2018 01:51:32 +0000
Message-ID: 
To: Willy Tarreau 
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Magnus_Nystr=C3=B6m?= , secdir@ietf.org,  draft-ietf-httpbis-replay@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-replay
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Yes, thanks Magnus,

I think that Willy answered the primary concerns.  I'm not sure that there
is anything actionable in those, but if you have a suggestion for
improvement, that would be appreciated.

> > - Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "application"

This is fixed in the editor's copy (long story there, but the draft you
reviewed was *slightly* out of date).

> > - In Section 3, step 3, it is stated that: "If the server receives
multiple
> > requests in early data, it can determine whether to defer HTTP
processing
> > on a per-request basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated that: "Note
> > that a server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at the TLS
> > layer. TLS only permits a server to accept all early data, or none of
it" -
> > I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can
> > selectively defer processing), but it is a bit confusing.

> Probably that we need to refine the wording. The point in section 3 was
> to make it clear that early data may affect multiple requests (pipelining,
> HTTP/2 multiplexing), and point 4 tries to clarify the fact that the TLS
> layer provides you a data stream, part of which was received as early
> data, and that the server has no choice but to consume them all or reject
> them all.

When I went to look at this, I noticed that we don't really explain that
rejecting 0-RTT is possible.  That's an important option, even if it is
pretty severely limited.

So I added that:
    2.  The server can reject early data.  A server cannot selectively
        reject early data, so this results in all requests sent in early
        data being discarded.

Full change at: https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/602

In doing so, I think that the context needed to interpret step 3 (now step
4) is available.

> > - The attack in Section 4 is outlined as follows: "An attacker sends
early
> > data to one server instance that accepts and processes the early data,
but
> > allows that connection to proceed no further. The attacker then forwards
> > the same messages from the client to another server instance that will
> > reject early data. The client then retries the request, resulting in the
> > request being processed twice."
> > This seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, before the
> > client has sent the first message, that it is what the client will
send? Is
> > the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted from the
> > client? If so, suggest making that clear.

> Indeed, that was based on intercepted and replayed traffic. With an
> individual hat, I agree that the example is a bit conflated. But the
> point here was mostly to expose the risks that could happen by lazy
> implementations that would take some shortcuts (like automatically
> retrying on timeout for a client or a server accepting to process
> unsafe early-data requests).

Yeah, maybe this alternative is better:
    Automatic retry creates the potential for a replay attack.  An
    attacker intercepts a connection that uses early data and copies the
    early data to another server instance.  The second server instance
    accepts and processes the early data.  The attacker then allows the
    original connection to complete.  Even if the early data is detected
    as a duplicate and rejected, the first server instance might allow
    the connection to complete.  If the client then retries requests that
    were sent in early data, the request will be processed twice.

Details at: https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/603


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Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 21:10:50 -0700
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--0000000000008c61a3056b456304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Yes Martin, I think all of those changes are improvements - thanks for
considering!

/M

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Martin Thomson 
wrote:

> Yes, thanks Magnus,
>
> I think that Willy answered the primary concerns.  I'm not sure that there
> is anything actionable in those, but if you have a suggestion for
> improvement, that would be appreciated.
>
> > > - Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "application"
>
> This is fixed in the editor's copy (long story there, but the draft you
> reviewed was *slightly* out of date).
>
> > > - In Section 3, step 3, it is stated that: "If the server receives
> multiple
> > > requests in early data, it can determine whether to defer HTTP
> processing
> > > on a per-request basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated that:
> "Note
> > > that a server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at the TLS
> > > layer. TLS only permits a server to accept all early data, or none of
> it" -
> > > I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can
> > > selectively defer processing), but it is a bit confusing.
>
> > Probably that we need to refine the wording. The point in section 3 was
> > to make it clear that early data may affect multiple requests
> (pipelining,
> > HTTP/2 multiplexing), and point 4 tries to clarify the fact that the TLS
> > layer provides you a data stream, part of which was received as early
> > data, and that the server has no choice but to consume them all or reject
> > them all.
>
> When I went to look at this, I noticed that we don't really explain that
> rejecting 0-RTT is possible.  That's an important option, even if it is
> pretty severely limited.
>
> So I added that:
>     2.  The server can reject early data.  A server cannot selectively
>         reject early data, so this results in all requests sent in early
>         data being discarded.
>
> Full change at: https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/602
>
> In doing so, I think that the context needed to interpret step 3 (now step
> 4) is available.
>
> > > - The attack in Section 4 is outlined as follows: "An attacker sends
> early
> > > data to one server instance that accepts and processes the early data,
> but
> > > allows that connection to proceed no further. The attacker then
> forwards
> > > the same messages from the client to another server instance that will
> > > reject early data. The client then retries the request, resulting in
> the
> > > request being processed twice."
> > > This seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, before
> the
> > > client has sent the first message, that it is what the client will
> send? Is
> > > the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted from the
> > > client? If so, suggest making that clear.
>
> > Indeed, that was based on intercepted and replayed traffic. With an
> > individual hat, I agree that the example is a bit conflated. But the
> > point here was mostly to expose the risks that could happen by lazy
> > implementations that would take some shortcuts (like automatically
> > retrying on timeout for a client or a server accepting to process
> > unsafe early-data requests).
>
> Yeah, maybe this alternative is better:
>     Automatic retry creates the potential for a replay attack.  An
>     attacker intercepts a connection that uses early data and copies the
>     early data to another server instance.  The second server instance
>     accepts and processes the early data.  The attacker then allows the
>     original connection to complete.  Even if the early data is detected
>     as a duplicate and rejected, the first server instance might allow
>     the connection to complete.  If the client then retries requests that
>     were sent in early data, the request will be processed twice.
>
> Details at: https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/603
>



-- 
-- Magnus

--0000000000008c61a3056b456304
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Yes Martin, I think all of those changes are improvem=
ents - thanks for considering!

/M

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Mart=
in Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, thanks Magnus,



I think that Willy answered the primary concerns.=C2=A0 I'm not sure th=
at there

is anything actionable in those, but if you have a suggestion for

improvement, that would be appreciated.



> > - Section 2, first sentence: Insert "data" after "=
application"



This is fixed in the editor's copy (long story there, but the dr=
aft you

reviewed was *slightly* out of date).



> > - In Section 3, step 3, it is stated that: "If the server re=
ceives

multiple

> > requests in early data, it can determine whether to defer HTTP
processing

> > on a per-request basis," however, in Section 4, it is stated=
 that: "Note

> > that a server cannot choose to selectively reject early data at t=
he TLS

> > layer. TLS only permits a server to accept all early data, or non=
e of

it" -

> > I guess this may be consistent (it will accept all data, but can<=
br>
> > selectively defer processing), but it is a bit confusing.



> Probably that we need to refine the wording. The point in section 3 wa=
s

> to make it clear that early data may affect multiple requests (pipelin=
ing,

> HTTP/2 multiplexing), and point 4 tries to clarify the fact that the T=
LS

> layer provides you a data stream, part of which was received as early<=
br>
> data, and that the server has no choice but to consume them all or rej=
ect

> them all.



When I went to look at this, I noticed that we don't really expl=
ain that

rejecting 0-RTT is possible.=C2=A0 That's an important option, even if =
it is

pretty severely limited.



So I added that:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 The server can reject early data.=C2=A0 A server can=
not selectively

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject early data, so this results in all reque=
sts sent in early

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data being discarded.



Full change at: https://github.com/httpwg/htt=
p-extensions/pull/602



In doing so, I think that the context needed to interpret step 3 (now step<=
br>
4) is available.



> > - The attack in Section 4 is outlined as follows: "An attack=
er sends

early

> > data to one server instance that accepts and processes the early =
data,

but

> > allows that connection to proceed no further. The attacker then f=
orwards

> > the same messages from the client to another server instance that=
 will

> > reject early data. The client then retries the request, resulting=
 in the

> > request being processed twice."

> > This seems a little convoluted - how would the attacker know, bef=
ore the

> > client has sent the first message, that it is what the client wil=
l

send? Is

> > the attacker's first message to a server instance intercepted=
 from the

> > client? If so, suggest making that clear.



> Indeed, that was based on intercepted and replayed traffic. With an
> individual hat, I agree that the example is a bit conflated. But the
> point here was mostly to expose the risks that could happen by lazy
> implementations that would take some shortcuts (like automatically

> retrying on timeout for a client or a server accepting to process

> unsafe early-data requests).



Yeah, maybe this alternative is better:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Automatic retry creates the potential for a replay attack.=C2=
=A0 An

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacker intercepts a connection that uses early data and cop=
ies the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 early data to another server instance.=C2=A0 The second serve=
r instance

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accepts and processes the early data.=C2=A0 The attacker then=
 allows the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 original connection to complete.=C2=A0 Even if the early data=
 is detected

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as a duplicate and rejected, the first server instance might =
allow

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the connection to complete.=C2=A0 If the client then retries =
requests that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 were sent in early data, the request will be processed twice.=




Details at: https://github.com/httpwg/http-ex=
tensions/pull/603





-- 
-- Magnus




--0000000000008c61a3056b456304--


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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:09:43 -0700
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To: Jim Schaad 
Cc: Matthew Miller , secdir@ietf.org,  SPASM , draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org,  IETF discussion list 
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probably "parse" not "parser"


On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Jim Schaad  wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matthew Miller 
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:30 AM
> > To: secdir@ietf.org
> > Cc: spasm@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org;
> ietf@ietf.org
> > Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> >
> > Reviewer: Matthew Miller
> > Review result: Has Nits
> >
> > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing
> > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> > comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> > directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
> > just like any other last call comments.
> >
> > Document: draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> > Reviewer: Matthew A. Miller
> > Review Date: 2018-04-21
> > IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27
> > IESG Telechat date: N/A
> >
> > Summary:
> >
> > This document is ready, but there is one nit around PKCS #6 handling that
> > might benefit from explanation.
> >
> > This document describes the certificate handling expectations for senders
> > and receivers of S/MIME 4.0.  It obsoletes RFC 5750, adding requirements
> to
> > support internationalized email addresses, increase RSA minimum key
> sizes,
> > and support ECDSA using P-256 and Ed25519; older algorithms such as DSA,
> > MD5, and SHA-1 are relegated to historical.
> >
> > Major Issues: N/A
> >
> > Minor Issues: N/A
> >
> > Nits:
> >
> > Section 2.2.1. "Historical Note about CMS Certificates" is almost entired
> > unchanged, but added a requirement that receivers MUST be able to process
> > PCKS #6 extended certificates.  This almost seems at odds with the rest
> of
> > the paragraph that precedes this MUST, noting PKCS #6 has little use and
> > PKIX is functionally equivalent.
> > A short explanation of why this additional handling requirement would
> seem
> > helpful.
>
> How about the following which is just a description of what we are looking
> for in terms of behavior.
>
>    Receiving agents MUST be able to parser and process a message
> containing PKCS #6 extended certificates although ignoring those
> certificates is expected behavior.
>
>
>
>

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probably "parse" not "parser"


On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.=
com> wrote:




> -----Original Message-----

> From: Matthew Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>

> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:30 AM

> To: secdir@ietf.org

> Cc: spasm@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-b=
is.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org

> Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-=
05

> 


> Reviewer: Matthew Miller

> Review result: Has Nits

> 

> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate'=
s ongoing

> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=A0=
 These

> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these com=
ments

> just like any other last call comments.

> 

> Document: draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05

> Reviewer: Matthew A. Miller

> Review Date: 2018-04-21

> IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27

> IESG Telechat date: N/A

> 

> Summary:

> 

> This document is ready, but there is one nit around PKCS #6 handling t=
hat

> might benefit from explanation.

> 

> This document describes the certificate handling expectations for send=
ers

> and receivers of S/MIME 4.0.=C2=A0 It obsoletes RFC 5750, adding requi=
rements to

> support internationalized email addresses, increase RSA minimum key si=
zes,

> and support ECDSA using P-256 and Ed25519; older algorithms such as DS=
A,

> MD5, and SHA-1 are relegated to historical.

> 

> Major Issues: N/A

> 

> Minor Issues: N/A

> 

> Nits:

> 

> Section 2.2.1. "Historical Note about CMS Certificates" is a=
lmost entired

> unchanged, but added a requirement that receivers MUST be able to proc=
ess

> PCKS #6 extended certificates.=C2=A0 This almost seems at odds with th=
e rest of

> the paragraph that precedes this MUST, noting PKCS #6 has little use a=
nd

> PKIX is functionally equivalent.

> A short explanation of why this additional handling requirement would =
seem

> helpful.




How about the following which is just a description of what we =
are looking for in terms of behavior.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0Receiving agents MUST be able to parser and process a message =
containing PKCS #6 extended certificates although ignoring those certificat=
es is expected behavior.











--000000000000391e5f056b52cb77--


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From: Jim Schaad 
To: 'Eric Rescorla' 
CC: 'Matthew Miller' , , 'SPASM' , , 'IETF discussion list' 
References: <152432458128.20660.6956595430755199355@ietfa.amsl.com> <054301d3e271$dc22db10$94689130$@augustcellars.com> 
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Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:55:20 -0700
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It was spelled correctly =E2=80=93 yes done locally.

=20

From: Eric Rescorla =20
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 1:10 PM
To: Jim Schaad 
Cc: Matthew Miller ; secdir@ietf.org; =
SPASM ; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org; IETF =
discussion list 
Subject: Re: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05

=20

probably "parse" not "parser"

=20

=20

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Jim Schaad  > wrote:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Miller  >
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:30 AM
> To: secdir@ietf.org =20
> Cc: spasm@ietf.org  ; =
draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org =
 ; ietf@ietf.org =
=20
> Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
>=20

> Reviewer: Matthew Miller
> Review result: Has Nits
>=20
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's =
ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  =
These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
> just like any other last call comments.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> Reviewer: Matthew A. Miller
> Review Date: 2018-04-21
> IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27
> IESG Telechat date: N/A
>=20
> Summary:
>=20
> This document is ready, but there is one nit around PKCS #6 handling =
that
> might benefit from explanation.
>=20
> This document describes the certificate handling expectations for =
senders
> and receivers of S/MIME 4.0.  It obsoletes RFC 5750, adding =
requirements to
> support internationalized email addresses, increase RSA minimum key =
sizes,
> and support ECDSA using P-256 and Ed25519; older algorithms such as =
DSA,
> MD5, and SHA-1 are relegated to historical.
>=20
> Major Issues: N/A
>=20
> Minor Issues: N/A
>=20
> Nits:
>=20
> Section 2.2.1. "Historical Note about CMS Certificates" is almost =
entired
> unchanged, but added a requirement that receivers MUST be able to =
process
> PCKS #6 extended certificates.  This almost seems at odds with the =
rest of
> the paragraph that precedes this MUST, noting PKCS #6 has little use =
and
> PKIX is functionally equivalent.
> A short explanation of why this additional handling requirement would =
seem
> helpful.

How about the following which is just a description of what we are =
looking for in terms of behavior.

   Receiving agents MUST be able to parser and process a message =
containing PKCS #6 extended certificates although ignoring those =
certificates is expected behavior.




=20


------=_NextPart_000_05B9_01D3E2E6.61CE6CB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


It was =
spelled correctly =E2=80=93 yes done locally.
 
From: Eric =
Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> 
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 =
1:10 PM
To: Jim Schaad =
<ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: Matthew Miller =
<linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; secdir@ietf.org; SPASM =
<spasm@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org; IETF =
discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Secdir last =
call review of =
draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
 
probably "parse" not =
"parser"
 
 
On Wed, =
May 2, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: =
Matthew Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-pl=
anes.net>
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:30 AM
> =
To: secdir@ietf.org
> Cc: =
spasm@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lamp=
s-rfc5750-bis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Secdir =
last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> =

> Reviewer: Matthew Miller
> =
Review result: Has Nits
> 
> I have reviewed this document =
as part of the security directorate's ongoing
> effort to review =
all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> =
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security =
area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should =
treat these comments
> just like any other last call =
comments.
> 
> Document: =
draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5750-bis-05
> Reviewer: Matthew A. =
Miller
> Review Date: 2018-04-21
> IETF LC End Date: =
2018-04-27
> IESG Telechat date: N/A
> 
> =
Summary:
> 
> This document is ready, but there is one nit =
around PKCS #6 handling that
> might benefit from =
explanation.
> 
> This document describes the certificate =
handling expectations for senders
> and receivers of S/MIME =
4.0.  It obsoletes RFC 5750, adding requirements to
> support =
internationalized email addresses, increase RSA minimum key =
sizes,
> and support ECDSA using P-256 and Ed25519; older =
algorithms such as DSA,
> MD5, and SHA-1 are relegated to =
historical.
> 
> Major Issues: N/A
> 
> Minor =
Issues: N/A
> 
> Nits:
> 
> Section 2.2.1. =
"Historical Note about CMS Certificates" is almost =
entired
> unchanged, but added a requirement that receivers MUST =
be able to process
> PCKS #6 extended certificates.  This =
almost seems at odds with the rest of
> the paragraph that =
precedes this MUST, noting PKCS #6 has little use and
> PKIX is =
functionally equivalent.
> A short explanation of why this =
additional handling requirement would seem
> =
helpful.
How about the following which is just a =
description of what we are looking for in terms of =
behavior.

   Receiving agents MUST be able to parser =
and process a message containing PKCS #6 extended certificates although =
ignoring those certificates is expected =
behavior.


 

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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2018-05-10

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Tobias Gondrom         2018-03-12 draft-ietf-tokbind-https-14
Leif Johansson        R2018-02-26 draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-06
Barry Leiba            2018-04-10 draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement-10

For telechat 2018-05-24

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Radia Perlman          2018-04-20 draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
Tina Tsou              2018-02-26 draft-ietf-softwire-dslite-yang-15

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
John Bradley           2018-04-18 draft-ietf-acme-acme-12
Daniel Gillmor         2018-03-19 draft-gutmann-scep-10
Russ Mundy             2017-09-14 draft-spinosa-urn-lex-12
Sandra Murphy          2018-04-24 draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-simulcast-12
Vincent Roca           2018-05-21 draft-hakala-urn-nbn-rfc3188bis-00
Kyle Rose              2018-05-10 draft-ietf-extra-imap-status-size-01
Joseph Salowey         2018-05-16 draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-05
Stefan Santesson       2018-05-14 draft-ietf-extra-specialuse-important-03
Yaron Sheffer          2018-05-14 draft-ietf-extra-imap-list-myrights-05

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Daniel Franke          2018-01-31 draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-00
Ólafur Guðmundsson     2018-01-09 draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-09
Dan Harkins            2018-05-31 draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-06

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Melinda Shore
  Robert Sparks
  Takeshi Takahashi
  Tina Tsou
  Sean Turner
  Carl Wallace
  David Waltermire
  Samuel Weiler
  Brian Weis
  Klaas Wierenga


From nobody Thu May  3 23:32:59 2018
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Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer
Review result: Has Nits

The document defines a simple extension to the IMAP LIST command.

- LSUB is mentioned in the Introduction, but then never mentioned again. Is the
extension applicable to it?

- The document does not formally define the syntax of the MYRIGHTS response.
Presumably it is exactly as in RFC 4314.

- The document should refer to the security considerations of RFC 4314.
Specifically, does the first paragraph of those security considerations also
apply here?


From nobody Fri May  4 06:52:02 2018
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Reviewer: Barry Leiba
Review result: Has Issues

The "issues" I call out below are minor, and if the working group thinks they
aren't worth dealing with, I'll not be offended nor lose any sleep.

— Section 1 —
I’m sure that all these terms are defined in the normative references, and ’tis
a small thing, but it would sure help a non-expert reader if this list of terms
included, for each term, a citation to the RFC that defines it.  I hope you’ll
consider adding that; thanks.

[Follow-up; I finally found “Tenant System” defined in RFC 7365, which is not
in your references at all.  Please don’t make your readers work that hard, and
please consider beefing up the references and citations to definitions.]

— Section 2.1 —

   If the term Tenant System (TS) is used to designate a physical or
   virtual system identified by MAC and maybe IP addresses, and
   connected to a BD by an Attachment Circuit, the following
   considerations apply:

I find the wording “if the term Tenant System is used” to be odd.  Are you
really saying (maybe you are) that the application of the considerations
depends on whether or not we *call* it a Tenant System?  Or whether or not it
*is* a Tenant System?  From the definition I found for “Tenant System” I can
see that maybe this can go either way.  But if we’re talking about the latter,
I’d use wording more like, “The following considerations apply to Tenant
Systems (TS) that are physical or virtual systems identified by MAC and maybe
IP addresses and connected to BDs by Attachment Circuits:” (cast as plural,
because the considerations use plurals).


— Section 3.1 —

I initially couldn’t figure out, as I was reading this, how you’d know whether
you’re dealing with v4 or v6 addresses, and, therefore, how to interpret the
lengths of the IP Prefix and GW IP Address fields.  I finally got to it seven
bullets down, where you say, “The total route length will indicate the type of
prefix”.    Maybe someone already expert in this would find this OK, but to me
it was too much work to sort it out, when I think it could be made clearer like
this:

NEW
   An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv4 has the Length field set to 34
   and consists of the following fields:

    +---------------------------------------+
    |      RD   (8 octets)                  |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)           |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 32)  |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  IP Prefix (4 octets)                 |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  GW IP Address (4 octets)             |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  MPLS Label (3 octets)                |
    +---------------------------------------+

   An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv6 has the Length field set to 58
   and consists of the following fields:

    +---------------------------------------+
    |      RD   (8 octets)                  |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)           |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 128) |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  IP Prefix (16 octets)                |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  GW IP Address (16 octets)            |
    +---------------------------------------+
    |  MPLS Label (3 octets)                |
    +---------------------------------------+

   The total route length will indicate the type of IP Prefix (34 for
   IPv4 or 58 for IPv6) and the type of GW IP Address. The IP Prefix
   and GW IP Address are always both IPv4 or both IPv6; mixing the
   two is not allowed.

   […and then follow with the explanations of the fields…]
END

Do you agree that that makes things clearer?

— Section 3.2 —

   o If either the ESI or GW IP are non-zero, then one of them is the
     Overlay Index, regardless of whether the Router's MAC Extended
     Community is present or the value of the Label.

Should that say “then the non-zero one is the Overlay Index”?



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From: Alexey Melnikov 
To: Yaron Sheffer , secdir@ietf.org
Cc: extra@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-extra-imap-list-myrights.all@ietf.org
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Date: Fri, 04 May 2018 16:49:25 +0100
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-extra-imap-list-myrights-05
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Hi Yaron,

On Fri, May 4, 2018, at 7:32 AM, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
> Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer
> Review result: Has Nits
> 
> The document defines a simple extension to the IMAP LIST command.
> 
> - LSUB is mentioned in the Introduction, but then never mentioned again. Is the
> extension applicable to it?

No, LSUB is a non extensible version, which was replaced by extended LIST.

> - The document does not formally define the syntax of the MYRIGHTS response.
> Presumably it is exactly as in RFC 4314.

Correct.

> - The document should refer to the security considerations of RFC 4314.
> Specifically, does the first paragraph of those security considerations also
> apply here?

Good point, it does.

Best Regards,
Alexey


From nobody Sat May  5 19:52:37 2018
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From: Kyle Rose 
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Reviewer: Kyle Rose
Review result: Ready

There are no non-trivial security implications of this protocol change.


From nobody Sun May  6 21:14:18 2018
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From: Russ Housley 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-secevent-token-09
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The updated draft (-10) resolves my concern.

Thanks,
  Russ

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:03 PM, Russ Housley  wrote:
> 
> Reviewer: Russ Housley
> Review result: Has Issues
> 
> I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area
> Directors.  Document authors, document editors, and WG chairs should
> treat these comments just like any other IETF Last Call comments.
> 
> Document: draft-ietf-secevent-token-09
> Reviewer: Russ Housley
> Review Date: 2018-04-20
> IETF LC End Date: unknown
> IESG Telechat date: 2018-05-10
> 
> Summary: Has Issues
> 
> Major Concerns
> 
> I do not understand the first paragraph of Section 3.  I made this
> comment on version -07, and some words were added, but I still do
> not understand this paragraph.  I think you are trying to impose some
> rules on future specifications that use SET to define events.  Let me
> ask a couple of questions that may help.  I understand that a
> profiling specification MUST specify the syntax and semantics for a
> collection of security event tokens, including the claims and payloads
> that are expected.  What MUST a profiling specification include?  What
> MUST a profiling specification NOT include?


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From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 23:48:15 -0700
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To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org,  The IESG , secdir@ietf.org
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--000000000000e3d7e5056b980d67
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

 Summary:  No security issues found, but I do have questions, and there are
editing glitches

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

This document describes the management interface for microwave radio links.
It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be
extensible to provide for vendor-specific features.

I don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network
management system" and SDN.  Perhaps it is not the job of this document to
clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real
distinction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a way
of "programming" an interface ("SDN").

This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches do
not impact its readability.

The glitches consist  mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the
following sentence.
"The adoption of an SDN framework for management and
   control the microwave interface is one of the key applications for
   this work."

The security considerations say that they assume a secure transport layer
(authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for communication.
Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerations for
inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted
administrator.  But this document does not specify the specific parameters
to be managed, just a general framework.

Radia

--000000000000e3d7e5056b980d67
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Summary:=C2=A0 No security issues=
 found, but I do have questions, and there are editing glitches
=

I have reviewed this document as part of the=
 security directorate's ongoing
effort to=C2=A0review=C2=A0all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=
=A0 These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of t=
he security area
directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG cha=
irs should treat these comments just
like any other last call =
comments.=C2=A0

This document describes the=
 management interface for microwave radio links.
It advocates (co=
rrectly, I believe) that such an interface should be extensible to provide =
for vendor-specific features.

I don't understa=
nd the difference between a "a traditional network management system&q=
uot; and SDN.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is not the job of this document to clearly m=
ake the distinction, and I suspect there is no real distinction...setting p=
arameters (traditional network management) is a way of "programming&qu=
ot; an interface ("SDN").=C2=A0

This=
 document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches do not=
 impact its readability.

The glitches consist=C2=
=A0 mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the following=
 sentence.
"The adoption of an SDN framework for management =
and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0control the microwave interface is one of the ke=
y applications for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this work."

The security considerations say that they assume a secure transpor=
t layer (authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for commun=
ication.=C2=A0 Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerat=
ions for inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a =
trusted administrator.=C2=A0 But this document does not specify the specifi=
c parameters to be managed, just a general framework.

<=
div>Radia



--000000000000e3d7e5056b980d67--


From nobody Sun May  6 23:54:43 2018
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From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 23:54:38 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org,  The IESG , secdir@ietf.org
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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Sorry...resending because I mistyped the author address.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG <
iesg@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org


Summary:  No security issues found, but I do have questions, and there are
editing glitches

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

This document describes the management interface for microwave radio links.
It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be
extensible to provide for vendor-specific features.

I don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network
management system" and SDN.  Perhaps it is not the job of this document to
clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real
distinction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a way
of "programming" an interface ("SDN").

This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches do
not impact its readability.

The glitches consist  mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the
following sentence.
"The adoption of an SDN framework for management and
   control the microwave interface is one of the key applications for
   this work."

The security considerations say that they assume a secure transport layer
(authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for communication.
Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerations for
inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted
administrator.  But this document does not specify the specific parameters
to be managed, just a general framework.

Radia

--000000000000b3ecc6056b98242e
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Sorry...resending because I mistyped the author address.

---------- Forwarded messa=
ge ----------
From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gm=
ail.com>
Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Subject: Se=
cdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
To: draft-ietf=
-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org




Summary:=C2=A0 No security issues=
 found, but I do have questions, and there are editing glitches
=

I have reviewed this document as part of the=
 security directorate's ongoing
effort to=C2=A0review=C2=A0all IETF documents being proces=
sed by the IESG.=C2=A0 These
=
comments were written primarily f=
or the benefit of the security area
directors.=C2=A0 Document =
editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
like an=
y other last call comments.=C2=A0

This docu=
ment describes the management interface for microwave radio links.
It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be exte=
nsible to provide for vendor-specific features.

I =
don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network m=
anagement system" and SDN.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is not the job of this doc=
ument to clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real disti=
nction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a way of &q=
uot;programming" an interface ("SDN").=C2=A0
<=
br>
This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but the=
se glitches do not impact its readability.

The gli=
tches consist=C2=A0 mostly of leaving out little words like "of" =
in the following sentence.
"The adoption of an SDN framework=
 for management and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0control the microwave interface =
is one of the key applications for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this work."<=
/div>

The security considerations say that they assume a=
 secure transport layer (authenticated, probably encryption isn't neces=
sary) for communication.=C2=A0 Other than that, perhaps, there might be sec=
urity considerations for inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or m=
aliciously by a trusted administrator.=C2=A0 But this document does not spe=
cify the specific parameters to be managed, just a general framework.
=


Radia






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To: Radia Perlman , "draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "secdir@ietf.org" 
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From: Wassim Haddad 
To: Tero Kivinen 
CC: Wassim Haddad , Suresh Krishnan , Juan Carlos Zuniga , "secdir@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Request Review draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-01
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Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:23:01 +0000
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From: Daniel Migault 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [lamps] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis-07
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Hi Jim,

Thanks you for the clarifications. Please see my comments inline.

Yours,
Daniel

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Jim Schaad  wrote:

> I have published a -08 with these changes.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Daniel Migault 
> > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 12:24 PM
> > To: secdir@ietf.org
> > Cc: spasm@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis.a
> ll@ietf.org
> > Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis-07
> >
> > Reviewer: Daniel Migault
> > Review result: Has Nits
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing
> > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> > These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security
> area
> > directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
> > just like any other last call comments.
> >
> > The summary of the review is Has Minor Nits
> >
> >
> > Please find my comments while reading the draft.
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > 1.  Introduction
> >
> > As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides for message
> >    compression.
> >
> > maybe :
> > As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides message
> >    compression.
> >
>
> Done
>
> >
> > 1.3.  Conventions Used in This Document
> >
> > The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5
> >    RSA signature or encryption algorithms even when not qualified as
> >    such.
> >
> > I am not sure format would not be more appropriated than algorithm, so
> > maybe:
> >
> > The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5
> >    RSA signature or encryption *format* even when not qualified as
> >    such.
>
> Interesting observation.  In all of the work that I have ever done I have
> always referred to the difference between PKCS #v1.5 signature, PKCS #v1.=
5
> encryption, OAEP, PSS and KEM and different encryption algorithms rather
> than just saying that the formats are different.  Saying format would mak=
e
> a degree of sense between the two different 1.5 algorithms, however if yo=
u
> compare v1.5 signature and PSS then more than just the format of the data
> can be thought of as being involved.
>
> I don't think that this makes sense.
>

This comment was just mentioned as  potential nits. I am fine with protocol
and understand the reasons. Thanks for the explanation. I cannot find where
I found the use of "format" and RFC8017 seems to use "scheme".


> >
> >
> > 2.3.  KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier
> >
> > When ECDH ephemeral-static is used, a key wrap algorithm is also
> >    specified in the KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier [RFC5652].  The
> >    underlying encryption functions for the key wrap and content
> >    encryption algorithm ([RFC3370] and [RFC3565]) and the key sizes for
> >    the two algorithms MUST be the same (e.g., AES-128 key wrap algorith=
m
> >    with AES-128 content encryption algorithm).
> >
> > I understand the recommendation for a sending agent, but it seems that
> > additional text should be provided in order to describe the behavior of
> the
> > receiver. I am wondering if the receiver is expected to reject the
> message or
> > whether it should assume the associated protection is the least of the
> two.
> > Maybe specifying this is only for sending agent may also clarify this.
>
> This probably falls under the category of "I don't care", the object is t=
o
> make sending agents do the right thing.  However, I have added test about
> security strengths for reciepents.
>

Thanks.


>
> >
> > 2.4.4.  AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
> >
> > This content type does not provide
> >    authentication or non-repudiation.
> >
> > is a really helpful clarification ;-) Maybe it could be helpful to use
> the same
> > formulation for section 2.4.2.  SignedData Content Type by
> > replacing:
> >
> > Applying a
> >    signature to a message provides authentication, message integrity,
> >    and non-repudiation of origin.
> >
> >
> > This content type provides provides authentication, message integrity,
> and
> > non-repudiation of origin. A sender signs the message with its own
> private
> > key and shares public part of it with the recipient to validate the
> signature.
>
> I don't think this necessary for the other content types.  The problem is
> that many people think that AED algorithms automatically provide
> authentication.  There are some situations where this is true, but they a=
re
> not met when doing S/MIME.
>
> I agree. My comment was only to mention that 2.4.2 and 2.4.4 could use
similar formulation.

>
> > 2.5.  Attributes and the SignerInfo Type
> >
> > It would probably ease the reading and clarifying the purpose of the
> > SignerInfo's attribute. Typically, some of them might necessary to
> validate
> > the received message, while others are informational in prevision of a
> > response. This is clarified later in the document but could be introduc=
ed
> > here. I also believe that would be good to also include that there is a
> > bootstrapping issue that is solved by the compliance of the
> implementations
> > in supporting the recommended algorithms.
> >
> > A reference to section 2.7 may be useful as this section clarifies how
> the
> > sending agent uses these information - at least for the encryption.
>
> I have added the following sentence to the first paragraph
>
> These attributes can be required for processing of message (i.e. Message
> Digest), information the signer supplied (i.e. SMIME Capabilities) that
> should be processed, or attributes which are not relevant in the current
> situation (i.e. mlExpansionList  for mail viewe=
rs).
>
> I don't think a forward reference to 2.7 would be useful at this point.
>

I think that helps the reading. Thank you.

>
> >
> > 2.5.1.  Signing Time Attribute
> >
> > The message originator has not been specified before, it may be good to
> > clarify how it differs from the sender. It may also be good to specify
> how this
> > value is being used - against replay attacks.  section 2.7.1 provides
> some
> > indications of the expected usage of the signing time attribute but it
> seems
> > more associated to the capabilities.
>
> Replaced message originator with signer.
>
ok

>
> >
> > 2.5.2.  SMIME Capabilities Attribute
> >
> > A client does not have to list every capability it
> >    supports, and need not list all its capabilities so that the
> >    capabilities list doesn't get too long.
> >
> > It might be worth providing a recommendation on what too long means,
> > especially as a resulting list of capabilities is (expected) to be
> relatively short
> > compared to the message itself - but I might be wrong.
> > My reading of this attribute - and again I might be wrong - is that it
> would be
> > useless if implementations would follow the cryptographic
> > recommendations.  It is mostly useful to have non updated senders to
> > received responses from up-to-date responders. In addition, this
> > information is likely cached and as such may not be unnecessarily be
> > repeated. Wouldn't a MAY be more appropriated ?
>
> I don't really want to try and quantify what long means because for
> different clients it can mean different things.  In some considerations o=
ne
> could consider listing 3 encryption algorithms to be long while in other
> situations it might be 30 encryption algorithms that is too long.  If I
> want to send you a message and need to be sure that there is a common
> enabled language then 30 encryption algorrithms is better.  On the other
> hand trying to figure out a common algorithm for a message going to 100
> recipients where each has a different set of algorithms and in a differen=
t
> ranking order and come up with the best one means even 3 can feel really
> long.
>
> The problem is not byte count as even 30 items at 10 bytes apiece is only
> 300 bytes which relative to the rest of a signed MIME message is pretty
> small.  The problem is the question of how to make a decision and the
> parameters are different based on how that algorithm is implemented.
>
> While the information can be cached, I don't know that it can be assured
> to be cached.  Additionally this might put a greater burden on the sender
> as it would need to know if the current configuration has been sent to a
> recipient.  It is easier to just always send the list.  However I cannot
> see that there is any requirements on the document on having sending the
> attribute just on receiving it.
>
> I got it, but my point was that by having a mandatory to implement
cryptography document, would enable to have inter operable cryptographic
primitives that evolve over time. Such document will provide the necessary
overlaps. This is how we proceed with IKEv2 / IPsec... but S/MIME may have
different deployment considerations.   I see your last comment you do not
think that is useful. I am fine as long as I am sure you got my purpose..

>
> >
> > Note also that while we have some cryptographic recommendations for RSA=
,
> > I would have expected a table summarizing the cryptographic
> > recommendations with other algorithms than RSA.
>
> I don't know that adding a table is going to be useful.  Much of this
> information is not really designed to be put into a table unless you are
> going to footnote the heck out of it which kind of defeats the process.
> This information is scattered through out the document, but it tries to b=
e
> in the right place for a specific field.
>
>
I agree with you point. However, I believe that a mandatory to implement
guidance section or document would be helpful to specify which crypto is
mandatory and the status of the other algorithms. Evolution of the crypto
may address another scope than the protocol description and might be
another document.   Again this is addressed by your last comment.

> >
> > 2.5.3.  Encryption Key Preference Attribute
> >
> >  This attribute is designed to
> >    enhance behavior for interoperating with those clients that use
> >    separate keys for encryption and signing.
> >
> > Maybe that would be good to position this attribute versus the keyusage
> > when certificate are used to split the usage of each keys. I am
> wondering if a
> > recommendation could be state on whether one or both means should be
> > used and if one overwrite the other.  A preference may still be useful =
to
> > indicate a preference when multiple keys for a given role are available=
.
> Is key
> > management a relevant usage for preference ?
> >
> > I understand that Signing Time is being used to update the preferred
> > keys as one way to performed key roll over.
>
> While there is some similarity between key usage and this attribute, the
> attribute is more general and allows for things which are not necessarily
> mentioned here.  As an example, one could send different certificates wit=
h
> different algorithms or key sizes and express a preference on which
> certificate to use.  It may be that the names between the signing
> certificate and encryption key certificate are not the same, in that case
> which should be used.    I think that this is covered in the introduction
> and a reference to key usage is not really helpful.
>
> The response clarifies my question thanks.

> >
> >
> > 3.1.  Preparing the MIME Entity for Signing, Enveloping, or Compressing
> >
> >  A MIME entity can be a sub-
> >    part, sub-parts of a message, or the whole message with all its sub-
> >    parts.
> >
> > I am wondering if "a subpart, many subparts or ..." would not be cleare=
r.
>
> I don't see this as being clearer.
>
> >
> > I understand that "message" in the first paragraph is used as the MIME
> > message and in other words, the message is not designating the mail. I =
am
> > reading message as MIME multi-part message and the MIME entities as a
> > subset of MIME headers and parts of MIME multi-part message. Similarly
> > MIME body would be the MIME multi-part message.  Is that correct ? I
> > believe the terminology paragraph could be clarified.
>
> There is no requirement that message be multi-part, it could be a
> single-part message such as text/plain.  However that is generally
> correct.  How do you believe that the text can be clarified.  Specific te=
xt
> would be helpful.
>

I believe that replacing message by MIME message would clarify the
difference between the message of the email. Then clarifying that MIME
message is composed of MIME entities.

Here is what I would propose:

S/MIME is used to secure MIME entities. A MIME message is composed of a
MIME header and a MIME body, which both can be constituted of a single
part or of multiple parts. Any of these parts is designated as a MIME
message part.
A MIME entity can be a sub-
   part, sub-parts of a MIME message, or the whole Mime message with
all its sub-
   parts.  A MIME entity that is the whole MIME message includes only the
   MIME message headers and MIME body, and does not include the
RFC-822 
   header.  Note that S/MIME can also be used to secure MIME entities
   used in applications other than Internet mail.  If protection of the
   RFC-822  header is required,
the use of the message/rfc822 media type
   is explained later in this section.






>
> >
> >
> >  It is
> >    RECOMMENDED that a distinction be made between the location of the
> >    header.
> >
> > I believe the purpose is to make a distinction between "protected" and
> > 'unprotected' to the end user. I would thus keep this distinction even
> though
> > this translates into 'inner' / 'outer'.
>
> The problem of how to do this has been a topic of many discussions withou=
t
> ever getting to a conclusion.  One of the problems is that protected can
> mean some different things depending on how you protect the headers.  For
> example, one could have a multipart/mixed message with two sections each =
of
> which consists of an encrypted message.  If each of those has different
> protected headers in them then, while the difference between inner and
> outer makes sense as that is part of the tree structure, which set of
> protected headers now needs to be dealt with.
>
> Thanks for the explanation. I agree.


> >
> >
> > 3.3.  Creating an Enveloped-Only Message
> >
> >
> > A sample message would be:
> >
> >    Content-Type: application/pkcs7-mime; name=3Dsmime.p7m;
> >            smime-type=3Denveloped-data
> >
> > Shouldn't we use an OID instead of data for the example ?
>
> I don't know what you are trying to ask here.
>

I though of specifying an OID instead of using data, but I agree that data
is preferred.


>
> >
> >
> >
> > 3.4.  Creating an Authenticated Enveloped-Only Message
> >
> > I believe the word "proof" is missing.
> >
> >  It is important to note that
> >    sending authenticated enveloped messages does not provide for
> >    origination when using S/MIME.
> >
> > Maybe we should specify that this is especially true when multiple
> recipients
> > are involved.
>
> done
>
> >
> > 3.5.3.  Signing Using the multipart/signed Format
> >
> >  The first part contains
> >    the MIME entity that is signed; the second part contains the
> >    "detached signature" CMS SignedData object in which the
> >    encapContentInfo eContent field is absent.
> >
> > I believe it would be good to specify parts are ordered as this is not
> always
> > the case of parts. What is unclear to me is why the second part is
> separated
> > by a boundary usually used to separate parts. It seems boundary can als=
o
> be
> > used as boundary inside a part which seems to make part parsing harder.
>
> The order is part of the definition of multipart/signed.
>
> In the definition of multipart/*, the rules require that the boundary
> string not exist within any of the different child body parts.  This mean=
s
> that it can be used to uniquely distinguish the boundaries.
>

Agree. Thanks for the clarification.

>
> >
> >
> >
> > 3.5.3.2.  Creating a multipart/signed Message
> >
> >     Algorithm Value Used
> >     MD5       md5
> >     SHA-1     sha-1
> >     SHA-224   sha-224
> >     SHA-256   sha-256
> >     SHA-384   sha-384
> >     SHA-512   sha-512
> >     Any other (defined separately in algorithm profile or "unknown" if
> >               not defined)
> >
> >
> > Should we have any recommendations on the hash algorithm to be used by
> > sender / receivers ? Is that possible to deprecate MD5, SHA-1 and
> > SHA-224 for senders ?
>
> The recommendations on which algorithms to use is part of the signature
> algorithm recommendations.  This is a different table and removing items
> would be potentially harmful.
>
> I am reading this as new implementations should still implement MD5. If
so, I believe an explanation might be useful.


> >
> >
> > 3.7.  Multiple Operations
> >
> > Would it be recommended to have signed clear text than encrypted and
> > then signed encrypted  ? This seems to address all security concerns.
>
> There are a large number of security concerns that have been uncovered
> with each of the different orders of operations.  Part of the question is
> going to be what concern are you trying to address and what are the
> informal rules about this.  I don't think at this point we can really giv=
e
> an order, however RFC 2634 does have some guidance.
>

Correct. Maybe it would be useful the section references ESS for further
recommendations. But I agree the reference has been mentioned earlier.

>
> >
> > 3.9.  Registration Requests
> >
> > Should we mention DANE rfc8162 as a way to register you public key ?
>
> I don't think so, we don=E2=80=99t ever talk about how to find keys in th=
e
> document.
>

Agree ;-)

>
> >
> > 4.  Certificate Processing
> >
> > EdDSA Signatures recommendations for curve25519 and curve448 seems to
> > be missing in the key pair generating , signature section. Are there an=
y
> > reasons not to consider these curves ?
> >
> > May be useful to have the following references:
> > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-cms-eddsa
> -signatures/
> > [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-pkix/
>
> Should have had [1] as a reference, the reference was there but not the
> pointer to it.
> The second would be referenced in rfc5750-bis not here.
>
> >
> > 6.  Security Considerations
> >
> > I am wondering if any considerations should be provided for data at res=
t.
> > Does the email needs to be archived encrypted or not and whether S/MIME
> > can be used to store encrypted content. I believe that email should not
> be
> > stored encrypted and as such S/MIME is only intended to
> > protect mails in transit....  but I might be wrong.
>
> I believe you to be wrong.  There are no problems w/ using S/MIME as a
> data at rest protection scheme.  The question of storing messages as
> encrypted or not is something that different clients have dealt with in
> different ways.  The client I use leaves things encrypted which I conside=
r
> to be the correct answer.
>
> I see why... if there are no clear rules, it might be better to leave it
as it is. I agree.


> >
> > As a general comment I would have like a table that summarizes or
> explicitly
> > mention what crypto is recommended for encrypting / signing.
> > RSA is being discussed, but ECDSA EdDSA, ECDH, hash... are not. I belie=
ve
> > such tables should be updated regularly to deprecate  and introduce new
> > algorithms while leaving S/MIME unchanged.
>
> To do this would require that the algorithms be maintained in a separate
> document.  As above, I don't think a separate table adds to clarity as it
> duplicates information and would be hard to write.
>
> >
> > There are a lot of double space in the text.
> >
>
>
> Jim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spasm mailing list
> Spasm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spasm
>

--000000000000f284ee056bf019b1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Jim, 

Thanks you for the cl=
arifications. Please see my comments inline. 

Yours,=C2=A0 
Daniel

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@=
augustcellars.com> wrote:
I=
 have published a -08 with these changes.



> -----Original Message-----

> From: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>

> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 12:24 PM

> To: secdir@ietf.o=
rg

> Cc: spasm@ietf.org=
; ietf@ietf.org;=
 draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis.all@ietf.org

> Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5751-bis-07

> 

> Reviewer: Daniel Migault

> Review result: Has Nits

> 

> Hi,

> 

> 

> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate'=
s ongoing

> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.

> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security =
area

> directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these com=
ments

> just like any other last call comments.

> 

> The summary of the review is Has Minor Nits

> 

> 

> Please find my comments while reading the draft.

> 

> Yours,

> 

> Daniel

> 

> 

> 1.=C2=A0 Introduction

> 

> As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides for message

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 compression.

> 

> maybe :

> As a supplementary service, S/MIME provides message

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 compression.

> 



Done



> 

> 1.3.=C2=A0 Conventions Used in This Document

> 

> The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5<=
br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RSA signature or encryption algorithms even when not qual=
ified as

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 such.

> 

> I am not sure format would not be more appropriated than algorithm, so=


> maybe:

> 

> The term RSA in this document almost always refers to the PKCS#1 v1.5<=
br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RSA signature or encryption *format* even when not qualif=
ied as

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 such.



Interesting observation.=C2=A0 In all of the work that I have ever d=
one I have always referred to the difference between PKCS #v1.5 signature, =
PKCS #v1.5 encryption, OAEP, PSS and KEM and different encryption algorithm=
s rather than just saying that the formats are different.=C2=A0 Saying form=
at would make a degree of sense between the two different 1.5 algorithms, h=
owever if you compare v1.5 signature and PSS then more than just the format=
 of the data can be thought of as being involved.



I don't think that this makes sense.

This comment was just mentioned as=C2=A0 potential nits. I am fine with p=
rotocol and understand the reasons. Thanks for the explanation. I cannot fi=
nd where I found the use of "format" and RFC8017 seems to use &qu=
ot;scheme". 
=C2=A0=C2=A0 

> 

> 

> 2.3.=C2=A0 KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier

> 

> When ECDH ephemeral-static is used, a key wrap algorithm is also

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specified in the KeyEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier [R=
FC5652].=C2=A0 The

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 underlying encryption functions for the key wrap and cont=
ent

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption algorithm ([RFC3370] and [RFC3565]) and the ke=
y sizes for

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the two algorithms MUST be the same (e.g., AES-128 key wr=
ap algorithm

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with AES-128 content encryption algorithm).

> 

> I understand the recommendation for a sending agent, but it seems that=


> additional text should be provided in order to describe the behavior o=
f the

> receiver. I am wondering if the receiver is expected to reject the mes=
sage or

> whether it should assume the associated protection is the least of the=
 two.

> Maybe specifying this is only for sending agent may also clarify this.=




This probably falls under the category of "I don't care&quo=
t;, the object is to make sending agents do the right thing.=C2=A0 However,=
 I have added test about security strengths for reciepents.

Thanks.
=C2=A0



> 

> 2.4.4.=C2=A0 AuthEnvelopedData Content Type

> 

> This content type does not provide

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication or non-repudiation.

> 

> is a really helpful clarification ;-) Maybe it could be helpful to use=
 the same

> formulation for section 2.4.2.=C2=A0 SignedData Content Type by

> replacing:

> 

> Applying a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 signature to a message provides authentication, message i=
ntegrity,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and non-repudiation of origin.

> 

> 

> This content type provides provides authentication, message integrity,=
 and

> non-repudiation of origin. A sender signs the message with its own pri=
vate

> key and shares public part of it with the recipient to validate the si=
gnature.



I don't think this necessary for the other content types.=C2=A0 =
The problem is that many people think that AED algorithms automatically pro=
vide authentication.=C2=A0 There are some situations where this is true, bu=
t they are not met when doing S/MIME.


I agree. My comment was only to mention =
that 2.4.2 and 2.4.4 could use similar formulation. 


> 

> 2.5.=C2=A0 Attributes and the SignerInfo Type

> 

> It would probably ease the reading and clarifying the purpose of the
> SignerInfo's attribute. Typically, some of them might necessary to=
 validate

> the received message, while others are informational in prevision of a=


> response. This is clarified later in the document but could be introdu=
ced

> here. I also believe that would be good to also include that there is =
a

> bootstrapping issue that is solved by the compliance of the implementa=
tions

> in supporting the recommended algorithms.

> 

> A reference to section 2.7 may be useful as this section clarifies how=
 the

> sending agent uses these information - at least for the encryption.


I have added the following sentence to the first paragraph



These attributes can be required for processing of message (i.e. Message Di=
gest), information the signer supplied (i.e. SMIME Capabilities) that shoul=
d be processed, or attributes which are not relevant in the current situati=
on (i.e. mlExpansionList <xref target=3D"RFC2634"/> for mai=
l viewers).



I don't think a forward reference to 2.7 would be useful at this point.=


I think that helps the reading. Thank =
you.=C2=A0 



> 

> 2.5.1.=C2=A0 Signing Time Attribute

> 

> The message originator has not been specified before, it may be good t=
o

> clarify how it differs from the sender. It may also be good to specify=
 how this

> value is being used - against replay attacks.=C2=A0 section 2.7.1 prov=
ides some

> indications of the expected usage of the signing time attribute but it=
 seems

> more associated to the capabilities.



Replaced message originator with signer.
ok 



> 

> 2.5.2.=C2=A0 SMIME Capabilities Attribute

> 

> A client does not have to list every capability it

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supports, and need not list all its capabilities so that =
the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 capabilities list doesn't get too long.

> 

> It might be worth providing a recommendation on what too long means,
> especially as a resulting list of capabilities is (expected) to be rel=
atively short

> compared to the message itself - but I might be wrong.

> My reading of this attribute - and again I might be wrong - is that it=
 would be

> useless if implementations would follow the cryptographic

> recommendations.=C2=A0 It is mostly useful to have non updated senders=
 to

> received responses from up-to-date responders. In addition, this

> information is likely cached and as such may not be unnecessarily be
> repeated. Wouldn't a MAY be more appropriated ?



I don't really want to try and quantify what long means because =
for different clients it can mean different things.=C2=A0 In some considera=
tions one could consider listing 3 encryption algorithms to be long while i=
n other situations it might be 30 encryption algorithms that is too long.=
=C2=A0 If I want to send you a message and need to be sure that there is a =
common enabled language then 30 encryption algorrithms is better.=C2=A0 On =
the other hand trying to figure out a common algorithm for a message going =
to 100 recipients where each has a different set of algorithms and in a dif=
ferent ranking order and come up with the best one means even 3 can feel re=
ally long.



The problem is not byte count as even 30 items at 10 bytes apiece is only 3=
00 bytes which relative to the rest of a signed MIME message is pretty smal=
l.=C2=A0 The problem is the question of how to make a decision and the para=
meters are different based on how that algorithm is implemented.



While the information can be cached, I don't know that it can be assure=
d to be cached.=C2=A0 Additionally this might put a greater burden on the s=
ender as it would need to know if the current configuration has been sent t=
o a recipient.=C2=A0 It is easier to just always send the list.=C2=A0 Howev=
er I cannot see that there is any requirements on the document on having se=
nding the attribute just on receiving it.


I got it, but my point was that by havin=
g a mandatory to implement cryptography document, would enable to have inte=
r operable cryptographic primitives that evolve over time. Such document wi=
ll provide the necessary overlaps. This is how we proceed with IKEv2 / IPse=
c... but S/MIME may have different deployment considerations. =C2=A0 I see =
your last comment you do not think that is useful. I am fine as long as I a=
m sure you got my purpose.. 



> 

> Note also that while we have some cryptographic recommendations for RS=
A,

> I would have expected a table summarizing the cryptographic

> recommendations with other algorithms than RSA.



I don't know that adding a table is going to be useful.=C2=A0 Mu=
ch of this information is not really designed to be put into a table unless=
 you are going to footnote the heck out of it which kind of defeats the pro=
cess.=C2=A0 This information is scattered through out the document, but it =
tries to be in the right place for a specific field.



I agree with you point. H=
owever, I believe that a mandatory to implement guidance section or documen=
t would be helpful to specify which crypto is mandatory and the status of t=
he other algorithms. Evolution of the crypto may address another scope than=
 the protocol description and might be another document. =C2=A0 Again this =
is addressed by your last comment. 

> 

> 2.5.3.=C2=A0 Encryption Key Preference Attribute

> 

>=C2=A0 This attribute is designed to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 enhance behavior for interoperating with those clients th=
at use

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 separate keys for encryption and signing.

> 

> Maybe that would be good to position this attribute versus the keyusag=
e

> when certificate are used to split the usage of each keys. I am wonder=
ing if a

> recommendation could be state on whether one or both means should be
> used and if one overwrite the other.=C2=A0 A preference may still be u=
seful to

> indicate a preference when multiple keys for a given role are availabl=
e. Is key

> management a relevant usage for preference ?

> 

> I understand that Signing Time is being used to update the preferred
> keys as one way to performed key roll over.



While there is some similarity between key usage and this attribute,=
 the attribute is more general and allows for things which are not necessar=
ily mentioned here.=C2=A0 As an example, one could send different certifica=
tes with different algorithms or key sizes and express a preference on whic=
h certificate to use.=C2=A0 It may be that the names between the signing ce=
rtificate and encryption key certificate are not the same, in that case whi=
ch should be used.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think that this is covered in the introdu=
ction and a reference to key usage is not really helpful.


The response clarifies my question thank=
s.=C2=A0 

> 

> 

> 3.1.=C2=A0 Preparing the MIME Entity for Signing, Enveloping, or Compr=
essing

> 

>=C2=A0 A MIME entity can be a sub-

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 part, sub-parts of a message, or the whole message with a=
ll its sub-

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 parts.

> 

> I am wondering if "a subpart, many subparts or ..." would no=
t be clearer.



I don't see this as being clearer.



> 

> I understand that "message" in the first paragraph is used a=
s the MIME

> message and in other words, the message is not designating the mail. I=
 am

> reading message as MIME multi-part message and the MIME entities as a<=
br>
> subset of MIME headers and parts of MIME multi-part message. Similarly=


> MIME body would be the MIME multi-part message.=C2=A0 Is that correct =
? I

> believe the terminology paragraph could be clarified.



There is no requirement that message be multi-part, it could be a si=
ngle-part message such as text/plain.=C2=A0 However that is generally corre=
ct.=C2=A0 How do you believe that the text can be clarified.=C2=A0 Specific=
 text would be helpful.

I believe that =
replacing message by MIME message would clarify the difference between the =
message of the email. Then clarifying that MIME message is composed of MIME=
 entities. 

Here is what I would propose:

S/MIME is used to secure MIME entities. A MIME message=
 is composed of a 
MIME header and a MIME body, which both can be consti=
tuted of a single 
part or of multiple parts. Any of these parts is desi=
gnated as a MIME message part.
A MIME entity can be a sub-
   part, sub-parts of a MIME message, or the whole Mime message with all it=
s sub-
   parts.  A MIME entity that is the whole MIME message includes only the
   MIME message headers and MIME body, and does not include the RFC-822
   header.  Note that S/MIME can also be used to secure MIME entities
   used in applications other than Internet mail.  If protection of the
   RFC-822 header is req=
uired, the use of the message/rfc822 media type
   is explained later in this section.


=C2=A0
=C2=A0



> 

> 

>=C2=A0 It is

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RECOMMENDED that a distinction be made between the locati=
on of the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 header.

> 

> I believe the purpose is to make a distinction between "protected=
" and

> 'unprotected' to the end user. I would thus keep this distinct=
ion even though

> this translates into 'inner' / 'outer'.



The problem of how to do this has been a topic of many discussions w=
ithout ever getting to a conclusion.=C2=A0 One of the problems is that prot=
ected can mean some different things depending on how you protect the heade=
rs.=C2=A0 For example, one could have a multipart/mixed message with two se=
ctions each of which consists of an encrypted message.=C2=A0 If each of tho=
se has different protected headers in them then, while the difference betwe=
en inner and outer makes sense as that is part of the tree structure, which=
 set of protected headers now needs to be dealt with.


Thanks for the explanation. I agree. =C2=A0

> 

> 

> 3.3.=C2=A0 Creating an Enveloped-Only Message

> 

> 

> A sample message would be:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-mime; name=3Dsmime.p7m;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 smime-type=3Denveloped-data
> 

> Shouldn't we use an OID instead of data for the example ?



I don't know what you are trying to ask here.=C2=A0 

I though of specifying an OID instead of using dat=
a, but I agree that data is preferred. 
=C2=A0



> 

> 

> 

> 3.4.=C2=A0 Creating an Authenticated Enveloped-Only Message

> 

> I believe the word "proof" is missing.

> 

>=C2=A0 It is important to note that

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sending authenticated enveloped messages does not provide=
 for

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 origination when using S/MIME.

> 

> Maybe we should specify that this is especially true when multiple rec=
ipients

> are involved.



done



> 

> 3.5.3.=C2=A0 Signing Using the multipart/signed Format

> 

>=C2=A0 The first part contains

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the MIME entity that is signed; the second part contains =
the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "detached signature" CMS SignedData object in w=
hich the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapContentInfo eContent field is absent.

> 

> I believe it would be good to specify parts are ordered as this is not=
 always

> the case of parts. What is unclear to me is why the second part is sep=
arated

> by a boundary usually used to separate parts. It seems boundary can al=
so be

> used as boundary inside a part which seems to make part parsing harder=
.



The order is part of the definition of multipart/signed.



In the definition of multipart/*, the rules require that the boundary strin=
g not exist within any of the different child body parts.=C2=A0 This means =
that it can be used to uniquely distinguish the boundaries.

Agree. Thanks for the clarification.=C2=A0 
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


> 

> 

> 

> 3.5.3.2.=C2=A0 Creating a multipart/signed Message

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Algorithm Value Used

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MD5=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0md5

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHA-1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sha-1

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHA-224=C2=A0 =C2=A0sha-224

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHA-256=C2=A0 =C2=A0sha-256

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHA-384=C2=A0 =C2=A0sha-384

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHA-512=C2=A0 =C2=A0sha-512

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Any other (defined separately in algorithm profile =
or "unknown" if

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not defined)

> 

> 

> Should we have any recommendations on the hash algorithm to be used by=


> sender / receivers ? Is that possible to deprecate MD5, SHA-1 and

> SHA-224 for senders ?



The recommendations on which algorithms to use is part of the signat=
ure algorithm recommendations.=C2=A0 This is a different table and removing=
 items would be potentially harmful. 


I am reading this as new implementations=
 should still implement MD5. If so, I believe an explanation might be usefu=
l.=C2=A0 
=C2=A0

> 

> 

> 3.7.=C2=A0 Multiple Operations

> 

> Would it be recommended to have signed clear text than encrypted and
> then signed encrypted=C2=A0 ? This seems to address all security conce=
rns.



There are a large number of security concerns that have been uncover=
ed with each of the different orders of operations.=C2=A0 Part of the quest=
ion is going to be what concern are you trying to address and what are the =
informal rules about this.=C2=A0 I don't think at this point we can rea=
lly give an order, however RFC 2634 does have some guidance.

Correct. Maybe it would be useful the section referen=
ces ESS for further recommendations. But I agree the reference has been men=
tioned earlier.



> 

> 3.9.=C2=A0 Registration Requests

> 

> Should we mention DANE rfc8162 as a way to register you public key ?


I don't think so, we don=E2=80=99t ever talk about how to find k=
eys in the document.

Agree ;-) 



> 

> 4.=C2=A0 Certificate Processing

> 

> EdDSA Signatures recommendations for curve25519 and curve448 seems to<=
br>
> be missing in the key pair generating , signature section. Are there a=
ny

> reasons not to consider these curves ?

> 

> May be useful to have the following references:

> [1] https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-cms-eddsa-signatures/

> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-curdle-pkix/



Should have had [1] as a reference, the reference was there but not =
the pointer to it.

The second would be referenced in rfc5750-bis not here.



> 

> 6.=C2=A0 Security Considerations

> 

> I am wondering if any considerations should be provided for data at re=
st.

> Does the email needs to be archived encrypted or not and whether S/MIM=
E

> can be used to store encrypted content. I believe that email should no=
t be

> stored encrypted and as such S/MIME is only intended to

> protect mails in transit....=C2=A0 but I might be wrong.



I believe you to be wrong.=C2=A0 There are no problems w/ using S/MI=
ME as a data at rest protection scheme.=C2=A0 The question of storing messa=
ges as encrypted or not is something that different clients have dealt with=
 in different ways.=C2=A0 The client I use leaves things encrypted which I =
consider to be the correct answer.


I see why... if there are no clear rules=
, it might be better to leave it as it is. I agree.
=C2=A0

> 

> As a general comment I would have like a table that summarizes or expl=
icitly

> mention what crypto is recommended for encrypting / signing.

> RSA is being discussed, but ECDSA EdDSA, ECDH, hash... are not. I beli=
eve

> such tables should be updated regularly to deprecate=C2=A0 and introdu=
ce new

> algorithms while leaving S/MIME unchanged.



To do this would require that the algorithms be maintained in a sepa=
rate document.=C2=A0 As above, I don't think a separate table adds to c=
larity as it duplicates information and would be hard to write.



> 

> There are a lot of double space in the text.

> 





Ji=
m






_______________________________________________

Spasm mailing list

Spasm@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spasm





--000000000000f284ee056bf019b1--


From nobody Sun May 13 20:49:03 2018
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Reviewer: Joseph Salowey
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
these comments just like any other last call comments.

The summary of the review is the document is ready.

The security considerations seem well thought out and are follow the guidelines
of RFC7202 for RTP payload definitions.  I like the fact that it includes some
information on possible implementation pitfalls.

Cheers,

Joe


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Subject: [secdir] [new-work] WG Review: Messaging Layer Security (mls)
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A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Security Area. The IESG has not made
any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is
provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the
IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2018-05-23.

Messaging Layer Security (mls)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current status: Proposed WG

Chairs:
  Nick Sullivan 
  Sean Turner 

Assigned Area Director:
  Benjamin Kaduk 

Security Area Directors:
  Eric Rescorla 
  Benjamin Kaduk 

Mailing list:
  Address: mls@ietf.org
  To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
  Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mls/

Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mls/

Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mls/

Several Internet applications have a need for group key establishment
and message protection protocols with the following properties:

o Message Confidentiality - Messages can only be read
  by members of the group
o Message Integrity and Authentication - Each message
  has been sent by an authenticated sender, and has
  not been tampered with
o Membership Authentication - Each participant can verify
  the set of members in the group
o Asynchronicity - Keys can be established without any
  two participants being online at the same time
o Forward secrecy - Full compromise of a node at a point
  in time does not reveal past messages sent within the group
o Post-compromise security - Full compromise of a node at a
  point in time does not reveal future messages sent within the group
o Scalability - Resource requirements have good scaling in the
  size of the group (preferably sub-linear)

Several widely-deployed applications have developed their own
protocols to meet these needs. While these protocols are similar,
no two are close enough to interoperate. As a result, each application
vendor has had to maintain their own protocol stack and independently
build trust in the quality of the protocol. The primary goal of this
working group is to develop a standard messaging security protocol
so that applications can share code, and so that there can be shared
validation of the protocol (as there has been with TLS 1.3).

It is not a goal of this group to enable interoperability/federation
between messaging applications beyond the key establishment,
authentication, and confidentiality services.  Full interoperability
would require alignment at many different layers beyond security,
e.g., standard message transport and application semantics.  The
focus of this work is to develop a messaging security layer that
different applications can adapt to their own needs.

While authentication is a key goal of this working group, it is not
the objective of this working group to develop new authentication
technologies.  Rather, the security protocol developed by this
group will provide a way to leverage existing authentication
technologies to associate identities with keys used in the protocol,
just as TLS does with X.509.

In developing this protocol, we will draw on lessons learned from
several prior message-oriented security protocols, in addition to
the proprietary messaging security protocols deployed within
existing applications:

o S/MIME - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5751
o OpenPGP - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880
o Off the Record - https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.1.1.html
o Signal - https://signal.org/docs/

The intent of this working group is to follow the pattern of
TLS 1.3, with specification, implementation, and verification
proceeding in parallel.  By the time we arrive at RFC, we
hope to have several interoperable implementations as well
as a thorough security analysis.

The specifications developed by this working group will be
based on pre-standardization implementation and deployment
experience, generalizing the design described in:

o draft-omara-mls-architecture
o draft-barnes-mls-protocol

Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current
protocol mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In
particular, because something is in the initial document set does
not imply that there is consensus around the feature or around
how it is specified.

Milestones:

  May 2018 - Initial working group documents for architecture and key
  management

  Sep 2018 - Initial working group document adopted for message protection

  Jan 2019 - Submit architecture document to IESG as Informational

  Jun 2019 - Submit key management protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard

  Sep 2019 - Submit message protection protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard


_______________________________________________
new-work mailing list
new-work@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/new-work


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Reviewer: Tobias Gondrom

Review result: Ready

 

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

 

Overall the document looks good, ready to go. 

In my review, I did not find any material concerns with the document, and no
nits. 

It is good that the security considerations part is quite detailed and
reflects the main security risks. 

Additionally also appreciated that privacy considerations are also
reasonably addressed in section 8. In case of this particular protocol time
well spent to spell this out. 

 

Ready to release. 

 

Best regards, Tobias

 

 

Ps.: apologies for my delay in sending out the review. 

 


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Reviewer: Tobias Gondrom
Review result: Ready
 
I have =
reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing =
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the =
IESG.
These comments were written =
primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.  Document =
editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other =
last call comments.
 
Overall the =
document looks good, ready to go. 
In =
my review, I did not find any material concerns with the document, and =
no nits. 
It is good that the =
security considerations part is quite detailed and reflects the main =
security risks. 
Additionally also =
appreciated that privacy considerations are also reasonably addressed in =
section 8. In case of this particular protocol time well spent to spell =
this out. 
 
Ready to release. 
 
Best =
regards, Tobias
 
 
Ps.: =
apologies for my delay in sending out the review. 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0256_01D3EBB9.E9D40620--


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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2018-05-24

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Radia Perlman          2018-04-20 draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
Tina Tsou              2018-02-26 draft-ietf-softwire-dslite-yang-15

For telechat 2018-06-07

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Vincent Roca           2018-05-21 draft-hakala-urn-nbn-rfc3188bis-00
Stefan Santesson       2018-05-14 draft-ietf-extra-specialuse-important-03
Melinda Shore          2018-05-30 draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-15
Carl Wallace           2018-05-21 draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets-05
David Waltermire       2018-05-21 draft-ietf-extra-imap-unauth-00

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
John Bradley           2018-04-18 draft-ietf-acme-acme-12
Daniel Gillmor         2018-03-19 draft-gutmann-scep-10
Russ Mundy             2017-09-14 draft-spinosa-urn-lex-12
Sandra Murphy          2018-04-24 draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-simulcast-12
Robert Sparks          2018-05-25 draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-dscp-registry-05
Takeshi Takahashi      2018-05-24 draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-11
Tina Tsou              2018-05-21 draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-04
Sean Turner            2018-05-21 draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical-08
Samuel Weiler          2018-05-21 draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Daniel Franke          2018-01-31 draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-00
Ólafur Guðmundsson     2018-01-09 draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-09
Dan Harkins            2018-05-31 draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-06

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Brian Weis
  Klaas Wierenga
  Christopher Wood
  Paul Wouters
  Liang Xia
  Taylor Yu
  Dacheng Zhang
  Derek Atkins
  John Bradley
  Shaun Cooley


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Reviewer: Robert Sparks
Review result: Ready

Reviewer: Robert Sparks
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

Summary: Ready for publication as Standards Track RFC

This document is entirely about changing the IANA registration policies
for part (pool 3) of the DSCP value registry. It is clearly written, and the
instructions to IANA are detailed. The security considerations section
appropriately notes that the document does not introduce new security
considerations for the Internet.


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From: "Yemin (Amy)" 
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Thread-Topic: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 21:29:53 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: "Yemin (Amy)" 
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli ,  "draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org" ,  The IESG , "secdir@ietf.org" , "ccamp@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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Thank you!  Though what you're suggesting is awkward English.

Perhaps "We note that the distinction between NMS and SDN is not all that
clear, and the two are evolving to be more and more similar." could replace
the first sentence.  I'm really not sure what you meant by "evolving toward
a component", so perhaps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.


Radia

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Yemin (Amy)  wrote:

> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> We just updated the draft, https://datatracker.ietf.org/
> doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework/.
>
> Your comments are addressed in the latest version.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Yemin (Amy)
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM
> *To:* 'Daniele Ceccarelli' ; Radia
> Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your review.
>
>
>
> Regarding the NMS and SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the followin=
g
> text in section 3:
>
> =E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving t=
owards a
> component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact =
is
> that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as t=
he
> implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the
> centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate
> component.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Regarding the security considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t sp=
ecify the
> parameters.
>
> There=E2=80=99s another draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the securit=
y
> consideration is addressed as you suggested.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM
> *To:* Radia Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> let me reply on behalf of the authors. First of all many thanks for your
> review.
>
>
>
> Regarding your question about traditional NMS vs SDN I agree with you on
> the fact that they are evolving towards a common component and the
> distinction is quite blurry, but there is still plenty of networks where
> NMS is still considered as the implementation of the management plane whi=
le
> SDN the centralization of the control plane and they are still kept as
> separate things.
>
>
>
> Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D NMS an=
d SDN I would
> tend to allow for the distinction to be kept. If you prefer a note speaki=
ng
> about the convergence of the two things can be added.
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> Daniele  (ccamp co-chair)
>
>
>
> *From:* Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com
> ]
> *Sent:* luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55
> *To:* draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Sorry...resending because I mistyped the author address.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Radia Perlman* 
> Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM
> Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG =
<
> iesg@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org
>
> Summary:  No security issues found, but I do have questions, and there ar=
e
> editing glitches
>
>
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoi=
ng
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments ju=
st
> like any other last call comments.
>
>
>
> This document describes the management interface for microwave radio link=
s.
>
> It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be
> extensible to provide for vendor-specific features.
>
>
>
> I don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network
> management system" and SDN.  Perhaps it is not the job of this document t=
o
> clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real
> distinction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a wa=
y
> of "programming" an interface ("SDN").
>
>
>
> This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches
> do not impact its readability.
>
>
>
> The glitches consist  mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the
> following sentence.
>
> "The adoption of an SDN framework for management and
>
>    control the microwave interface is one of the key applications for
>
>    this work."
>
>
>
> The security considerations say that they assume a secure transport layer
> (authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for communication.
> Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerations for
> inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted
> administrator.  But this document does not specify the specific parameter=
s
> to be managed, just a general framework.
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
>
>

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Thank you!=C2=A0 Though what you're suggesting is awkw=
ard English.

Perhaps "We note that the distinction =
between NMS and SDN is not all that clear, and the two are evolving to be m=
ore and more similar." could replace the first sentence.=C2=A0 I'm=
 really not sure what you meant by "evolving toward a component",=
 so perhaps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.

Radia

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 P=
M, Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com> wrote:











Hi Radia, 


=C2=A0


We just updated the dr=
aft, 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-frame=
work/. 



Your comments are addr=
essed in the latest version.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Yemin (Amy) 

Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM

To: 'Daniele Ceccarelli' <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<=
/a>>; Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-cc=
amp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; secdir@ietf.org

Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia, 


=C2=A0


Thanks for your review=
. 


=C2=A0


Regarding the NMS and =
SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the following text in section 3:



=E2=80=9CIt's note=
d that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving towards a compone=
nt, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact is that t=
here is still plenty of networks where NMS is still
 considered as the implementation of the management plane, while SDN is con=
sidered as the centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as =
separate component.=E2=80=9D


=C2=A0


Regarding the security=
 considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t specify the parameters.



There=E2=80=99s anothe=
r draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the security consideration is addre=
ssed as you suggested.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli=
@ericsson.com]


Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM

To: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>;
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia,


=C2=A0


let me reply on behalf of the authors. First o=
f all many thanks for your review.


=C2=A0


Regarding your question about traditional NMS =
vs SDN I agree with you on the fact that they are evolving towards a common=
 component and the distinction is quite blurry, but there is still plenty
 of networks where NMS is still considered as the implementation of the man=
agement plane while SDN the centralization of the control plane and they ar=
e still kept as separate things.


=C2=A0


Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9C=
traditional=E2=80=9D NMS and SDN I would tend to allow for the distinction =
to be kept. If you prefer a note speaking about the convergence of the two =
things can be added.


=C2=A0


Thanks a lot


Daniele=C2=A0 (ccamp co-chair)


=C2=A0








From: Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com]


Sent: luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55

To: 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-=
05






=C2=A0




Sorry...resending because I mistyp=
ed the author address.




=C2=A0






=C2=A0




---=
------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM

Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05

To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@t=
ools.ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,
secdir@ietf.org=





Summary:=C2=A0 No security i=
ssues found, but I do have questions, and there are editing glitches=





=C2=A0






I have reviewed this documen=
t as part of the security directorate's ongoing

effort to=C2=A0review=
=C2=A0all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=A0 These

comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area

directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments=
 just

like any other last call comments.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






This document describes the manage=
ment interface for microwave radio links.






It advocates (correctly, I believe=
) that such an interface should be extensible to provide for vendor-specifi=
c features.






=C2=A0






I don't understand the differe=
nce between a "a traditional network management system" and SDN.=
=C2=A0 Perhaps it is not the job of this document to clearly make the disti=
nction, and I suspect there is no real distinction...setting
 parameters (traditional network management) is a way of "programming&=
quot; an interface ("SDN").=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This document could use an editing=
 pass for glitches, but these glitches do not impact its readability.






=C2=A0






The glitches consist=C2=A0 mostly =
of leaving out little words like "of" in the following sentence.<=
u>






"The adoption of an SDN frame=
work for management and






=C2=A0 =C2=A0control the microwave=
 interface is one of the key applications for






=C2=A0 =C2=A0this work."






=C2=A0






The security considerations say th=
at they assume a secure transport layer (authenticated, probably encryption=
 isn't necessary) for communication.=C2=A0 Other than that, perhaps, th=
ere might be security considerations for inadvertently
 setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted administrator.=
=C2=A0 But this document does not specify the specific parameters to be man=
aged, just a general framework.






=C2=
=A0






Radia








=C2=
=A0










=C2=A0
















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From: "Yemin (Amy)" 
To: Radia Perlman 
CC: Daniele Ceccarelli , "draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "secdir@ietf.org" , "ccamp@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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--_000_9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF004FA1dggema521mbschi_--


From nobody Thu May 17 23:52:06 2018
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Reviewer: Stefan Santesson
Review result: Ready

This document seems good to go from a security perspective.

The security considerations section seems appropriate for this document.


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Thanks for the review, Stefan.

Barry

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Stefan Santesson  wrote:
> Reviewer: Stefan Santesson
> Review result: Ready
>
> This document seems good to go from a security perspective.
>
> The security considerations section seems appropriate for this document.
>



-- 
Barry
--
Barry Leiba  (barryleiba@computer.org)
http://internetmessagingtechnology.org/


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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" 
To: Barry Leiba , "secdir@ietf.org" 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement-10
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement-10
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From: Barry Leiba 
Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 20:33:22 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" 
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement-10
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All good, and thanks, Jorge, for taking the time to make the changes.

Barry

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:30 PM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hi Barry,
>
> Thank you very much for reviewing.
> I addressed all your comments, see below.
> Thanks a bunch!
> Jorge
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Leiba 
> Date: Friday, May 4, 2018 at 3:51 PM
> To: "secdir@ietf.org" 
> Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement.all@ietf.org" <
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" =
<
> ietf@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" 
> Subject: Secdir last call review of
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement-10
> Resent-From: 
> Resent-To: , , <
> jdrake@juniper.net>, , , <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, , <
> martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, , ,
> Zhaohui Zhang , 
> Resent-Date: Friday, May 4, 2018 at 3:51 PM
>
>     Reviewer: Barry Leiba
>     Review result: Has Issues
>
>     The "issues" I call out below are minor, and if the working group
> thinks they
>     aren't worth dealing with, I'll not be offended nor lose any sleep.
>
>     =E2=80=94 Section 1 =E2=80=94
>     I=E2=80=99m sure that all these terms are defined in the normative re=
ferences,
> and =E2=80=99tis
>     a small thing, but it would sure help a non-expert reader if this lis=
t
> of terms
>     included, for each term, a citation to the RFC that defines it.  I
> hope you=E2=80=99ll
>     consider adding that; thanks.
> [JORGE] I added a few references. Hope it's better now.
>
>     [Follow-up; I finally found =E2=80=9CTenant System=E2=80=9D defined i=
n RFC 7365, which
> is not
>     in your references at all.  Please don=E2=80=99t make your readers wo=
rk that
> hard, and
>     please consider beefing up the references and citations to
> definitions.]
> [JORGE] added now.
>
>     =E2=80=94 Section 2.1 =E2=80=94
>
>        If the term Tenant System (TS) is used to designate a physical or
>        virtual system identified by MAC and maybe IP addresses, and
>        connected to a BD by an Attachment Circuit, the following
>        considerations apply:
>
>     I find the wording =E2=80=9Cif the term Tenant System is used=E2=80=
=9D to be odd.  Are
> you
>     really saying (maybe you are) that the application of the
> considerations
>     depends on whether or not we *call* it a Tenant System?  Or whether o=
r
> not it
>     *is* a Tenant System?  From the definition I found for =E2=80=9CTenan=
t System=E2=80=9D
> I can
>     see that maybe this can go either way.  But if we=E2=80=99re talking =
about the
> latter,
>     I=E2=80=99d use wording more like, =E2=80=9CThe following considerati=
ons apply to
> Tenant
>     Systems (TS) that are physical or virtual systems identified by MAC
> and maybe
>     IP addresses and connected to BDs by Attachment Circuits:=E2=80=9D (c=
ast as
> plural,
>     because the considerations use plurals).
> [JORGE] I took your suggestion, thx
>
>     =E2=80=94 Section 3.1 =E2=80=94
>
>     I initially couldn=E2=80=99t figure out, as I was reading this, how y=
ou=E2=80=99d know
> whether
>     you=E2=80=99re dealing with v4 or v6 addresses, and, therefore, how t=
o
> interpret the
>     lengths of the IP Prefix and GW IP Address fields.  I finally got to
> it seven
>     bullets down, where you say, =E2=80=9CThe total route length will ind=
icate the
> type of
>     prefix=E2=80=9D.    Maybe someone already expert in this would find t=
his OK,
> but to me
>     it was too much work to sort it out, when I think it could be made
> clearer like
>     this:
>
>     NEW
>        An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv4 has the Length field set to 34
>        and consists of the following fields:
>
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |      RD   (8 octets)                  |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)           |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 32)  |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  IP Prefix (4 octets)                 |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  GW IP Address (4 octets)             |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  MPLS Label (3 octets)                |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>
>        An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv6 has the Length field set to 58
>        and consists of the following fields:
>
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |      RD   (8 octets)                  |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)           |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 128) |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  IP Prefix (16 octets)                |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  GW IP Address (16 octets)            |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>         |  MPLS Label (3 octets)                |
>         +---------------------------------------+
>
>        The total route length will indicate the type of IP Prefix (34 for
>        IPv4 or 58 for IPv6) and the type of GW IP Address. The IP Prefix
>        and GW IP Address are always both IPv4 or both IPv6; mixing the
>        two is not allowed.
>
>        [=E2=80=A6and then follow with the explanations of the fields=E2=
=80=A6]
>     END
>
>     Do you agree that that makes things clearer?
>
> [JORGE] ok, done
>
>     =E2=80=94 Section 3.2 =E2=80=94
>
>        o If either the ESI or GW IP are non-zero, then one of them is the
>          Overlay Index, regardless of whether the Router's MAC Extended
>          Community is present or the value of the Label.
>
>     Should that say =E2=80=9Cthen the non-zero one is the Overlay Index=
=E2=80=9D?
> [JORGE] ok, good point, done
>
>
>
>
> --
Barry
--
Barry Leiba  (barryleiba@computer.org)
http://internetmessagingtechnology.org/

--0000000000001385fd056c80077c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


All good, and thanks, Jorge, for taking the time to make =
the changes.

Barry
=


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:30 PM Ra=
badan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
Hi Barry,



Thank you very much for reviewing.

I addressed all your comments, see below.

Thanks a bunch!

Jorge





=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----

From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>

Date: Friday, May 4, 2018 at 3:51 PM

To: "secdir@ietf.=
org" <secd=
ir@ietf.org>

Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement.all@ie=
tf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertise=
ment.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertiseme=
nt-10

Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>

Resent-To: <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, <jdrake@juniper.net>, <=
;wlin@juniper.net=
>, <sajassi@ci=
sco.com>, <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, =
<martin.=
vigoureux@nokia.com>, <db3546@att.com>, <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, Zhaohui Zhang <=
zzhang@juniper.net<=
/a>>, <zzhang=
@juniper.net>

Resent-Date: Friday, May 4, 2018 at 3:51 PM



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reviewer: Barry Leiba

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Review result: Has Issues



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The "issues" I call out below are minor, and if the=
 working group thinks they

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 aren't worth dealing with, I'll not be offended nor l=
ose any sleep.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Section 1 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m sure that all these terms are defined in the norm=
ative references, and =E2=80=99tis

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a small thing, but it would sure help a non-expert reader if =
this list of terms

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 included, for each term, a citation to the RFC that defines i=
t.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2=80=99ll

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consider adding that; thanks.

[JORGE] I added a few references. Hope it's better now.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Follow-up; I finally found =E2=80=9CTenant System=E2=80=9D d=
efined in RFC 7365, which is not

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in your references at all.=C2=A0 Please don=E2=80=99t make yo=
ur readers work that hard, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 please consider beefing up the references and citations to de=
finitions.]

[JORGE] added now.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Section 2.1 =E2=80=94



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If the term Tenant System (TS) is used to design=
ate a physical or

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0virtual system identified by MAC and maybe IP ad=
dresses, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connected to a BD by an Attachment Circuit, the =
following

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations apply:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I find the wording =E2=80=9Cif the term Tenant System is used=
=E2=80=9D to be odd.=C2=A0 Are you

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 really saying (maybe you are) that the application of the con=
siderations

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 depends on whether or not we *call* it a Tenant System?=C2=A0=
 Or whether or not it

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *is* a Tenant System?=C2=A0 From the definition I found for =
=E2=80=9CTenant System=E2=80=9D I can

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see that maybe this can go either way.=C2=A0 But if we=E2=80=
=99re talking about the latter,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d use wording more like, =E2=80=9CThe following con=
siderations apply to Tenant

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Systems (TS) that are physical or virtual systems identified =
by MAC and maybe

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IP addresses and connected to BDs by Attachment Circuits:=E2=
=80=9D (cast as plural,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because the considerations use plurals).

[JORGE] I took your suggestion, thx



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Section 3.1 =E2=80=94



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I initially couldn=E2=80=99t figure out, as I was reading thi=
s, how you=E2=80=99d know whether

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you=E2=80=99re dealing with v4 or v6 addresses, and, therefor=
e, how to interpret the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lengths of the IP Prefix and GW IP Address fields.=C2=A0 I fi=
nally got to it seven

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bullets down, where you say, =E2=80=9CThe total route length =
will indicate the type of

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maybe someone already expert in=
 this would find this OK, but to me

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 it was too much work to sort it out, when I think it could be=
 made clearer like

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NEW

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv4 has the Length =
field set to 34

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and consists of the following fields:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RD=C2=A0 =C2=A0(8 octets)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 32)=C2=
=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 IP Prefix (4 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 GW IP Address (4 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 MPLS Label (3 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An IP Prefix Route Type for IPv6 has the Length =
field set to 58

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and consists of the following fields:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RD=C2=A0 =C2=A0(8 octets)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |Ethernet Segment Identifier (10 octets)|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Ethernet Tag ID (4 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 IP Prefix Length (1 octet, 0 to 128) |<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 IP Prefix (16 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 GW IP Address (16 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 MPLS Label (3 octets)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +---------------------------------------+



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total route length will indicate the type of=
 IP Prefix (34 for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv4 or 58 for IPv6) and the type of GW IP Addre=
ss. The IP Prefix

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and GW IP Address are always both IPv4 or both I=
Pv6; mixing the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0two is not allowed.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[=E2=80=A6and then follow with the explanations =
of the fields=E2=80=A6]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 END



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Do you agree that that makes things clearer?



[JORGE] ok, done



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Section 3.2 =E2=80=94



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o If either the ESI or GW IP are non-zero, then =
one of them is the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay Index, regardless of whether the =
Router's MAC Extended

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Community is present or the value of the =
Label.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should that say =E2=80=9Cthen the non-zero one is the Overlay=
 Index=E2=80=9D?

[JORGE] ok, good point, done










-- 
Barry
--
Barry Leiba =C2=A0(barryleiba@computer.=
org)
http://internetmessagingtechnology.org/


--0000000000001385fd056c80077c--


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From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 20:34:37 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eric Gray 
Cc: "Yemin (Amy)" , The IESG ,  "ccamp@ietf.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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Hi Eric,

I feel bad for the authors of this document to be burdened with clarifying
a distinction that has never been clear before (to lots of people,
including me),  but their proposed text doesn't make it clearer.

" =E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving t=
owards a
component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact is
that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as the
implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the
centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate
component"

 Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for text that acknowledges to
the reader that it's not the reader's fault for not understanding the
difference?

It would be OK with me for them to leave out  the extra entirely, since I'm
sure this isn't the first RFC whose verbiage claims SDN and NMS are two
different concepts. But if I were trying to get up to speed about this area
by reading the documents, I'd be somewhat comforted by an acknowledgement
(such as the text they propose, but with the English fixed) that these are
fuzzy distinctions, so I wouldn't think it was just me....that if I only
read more things, or thought harder, or had more background, the
distinction would be clear.

Radia




On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Eric Gray  wrote:

> Hi Radia.
>
>
>
> I agree that the English is awkward, but I would have interpreted
> =E2=80=9Cevolving toward a component=E2=80=9D to mean something more alon=
g the lines of
> evolving toward the same (singular) thing.  Or perhaps another way to loo=
k
> at it might be that, because YANG is becoming a more popular mechanism fo=
r
> both NMS and SDN, it is likely that one or both of these may become
> components of a common management framework.
>
>
>
> I would interpret it this way precisely because =E2=80=93 as you say =E2=
=80=93 the
> distinction is not at all clear, though I would add that (to some of us)
> the distinction has never been very clear.  =F0=9F=98=8A
>
>
>
> For this reason, I would have some small difficulty in seeing how it woul=
d
> make much sense to say that they are evolving toward increasing similarit=
y.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> *From:* CCAMP [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Radia Perlma=
n
> *Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2018 12:30 AM
> *To:* Yemin (Amy) 
> *Cc:* The IESG ; ccamp@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework-05
>
>
>
> Thank you!  Though what you're suggesting is awkward English.
>
>
>
> Perhaps "We note that the distinction between NMS and SDN is not all that
> clear, and the two are evolving to be more and more similar." could repla=
ce
> the first sentence.  I'm really not sure what you meant by "evolving towa=
rd
> a component", so perhaps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.
>
>
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Yemin (Amy)  wrote=
:
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> We just updated the draft, https://datatracker.ietf.org/
> doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework/.
>
> Your comments are addressed in the latest version.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Yemin (Amy)
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM
> *To:* 'Daniele Ceccarelli' ; Radia
> Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your review.
>
>
>
> Regarding the NMS and SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the followin=
g
> text in section 3:
>
> =E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving t=
owards a
> component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact =
is
> that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as t=
he
> implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the
> centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate
> component.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Regarding the security considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t sp=
ecify the
> parameters.
>
> There=E2=80=99s another draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the securit=
y
> consideration is addressed as you suggested.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM
> *To:* Radia Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> let me reply on behalf of the authors. First of all many thanks for your
> review.
>
>
>
> Regarding your question about traditional NMS vs SDN I agree with you on
> the fact that they are evolving towards a common component and the
> distinction is quite blurry, but there is still plenty of networks where
> NMS is still considered as the implementation of the management plane whi=
le
> SDN the centralization of the control plane and they are still kept as
> separate things.
>
>
>
> Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D NMS an=
d SDN I would
> tend to allow for the distinction to be kept. If you prefer a note speaki=
ng
> about the convergence of the two things can be added.
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> Daniele  (ccamp co-chair)
>
>
>
> *From:* Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com
> ]
> *Sent:* luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55
> *To:* draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Sorry...resending because I mistyped the author address.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Radia Perlman* 
> Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM
> Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG =
<
> iesg@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org
>
> Summary:  No security issues found, but I do have questions, and there ar=
e
> editing glitches
>
>
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoi=
ng
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments ju=
st
> like any other last call comments.
>
>
>
> This document describes the management interface for microwave radio link=
s.
>
> It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be
> extensible to provide for vendor-specific features.
>
>
>
> I don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network
> management system" and SDN.  Perhaps it is not the job of this document t=
o
> clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real
> distinction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a wa=
y
> of "programming" an interface ("SDN").
>
>
>
> This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches
> do not impact its readability.
>
>
>
> The glitches consist  mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the
> following sentence.
>
> "The adoption of an SDN framework for management and
>
>    control the microwave interface is one of the key applications for
>
>    this work."
>
>
>
> The security considerations say that they assume a secure transport layer
> (authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for communication.
> Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerations for
> inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted
> administrator.  But this document does not specify the specific parameter=
s
> to be managed, just a general framework.
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--0000000000005710d0056c9add87
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Eric,

I feel bad for the authors of =
this document to be burdened with clarifying a distinction that has never b=
een clear before (to lots of people, including me),=C2=A0 but their propose=
d text doesn't make it clearer.

"

=E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea t=
hat the NMS and SDN are evolving towards a component, and the distinction b=
etween them is quite vague. Another fact is that there is still plenty of n=
etworks where NMS is still considered as the implementation of the manageme=
nt plane, while SDN is considered as the centralization of the control plan=
e. They are still kept as separate component"

=C2=
=A0Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for text that acknowledges to =
the reader that it's not the reader's fault for not understanding t=
he difference?

It would be=
 OK with me for them to leave out=C2=A0 the extra entirely, since I'm s=
ure this isn't the first RFC whose verbiage claims SDN and NMS are two =
different concepts. But if I were trying to get up to speed about this area=
 by reading the documents, I'd be somewhat comforted by an acknowledgem=
ent (such as the text they propose, but with the English fixed) that these =
are fuzzy distinctions, so I wouldn't think it was just me....that if I=
 only read more things, or thought harder, or had more background, the dist=
inction would be clear.=C2=A0

Radia


<=
/span>


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Eric Gray <eric.g=
ray@ericsson.com> wrote:











Hi Radia.


=C2=A0


I agree that the English is awkward, but I would hav=
e interpreted =E2=80=9Cevolving toward a component=E2=80=9D to mean somethi=
ng more along the lines of evolving toward the same (singular) thing.=C2=A0=
 Or perhaps another way to look at it might be that, because
 YANG is becoming a more popular mechanism for both NMS and SDN, it is like=
ly that one or both of these may become components of a common management f=
ramework.


=C2=A0


I would interpret it this way precisely because =E2=
=80=93 as you say =E2=80=93 the distinction is not at all clear, though I w=
ould add that (to some of us) the distinction has never been very clear.=C2=
=A0
=F0=9F=98=
=8A


=C2=A0


For this reason, I would have some small difficulty =
in seeing how it would make much sense to say that they are evolving toward=
 increasing similarity.


=C2=A0


--


Eric


=C2=A0


From: CCAMP [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of
Radia Perlman

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 12:30 AM

To: Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com>

Cc: The IESG <=
iesg@ietf.org>; =
ccamp@ietf.org; se=
cdir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork.all@tools.ietf.org

Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05


=C2=A0




Thank you!=C2=A0 Though what you're suggesting i=
s awkward English.




=C2=A0






Perhaps "We note that the distinction between N=
MS and SDN is not all that clear, and the two are evolving to be more and m=
ore similar." could replace the first sentence.=C2=A0 I'm really n=
ot sure what you meant by "evolving toward a component",
 so perhaps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.<=
/u>




=C2=A0








=C2=A0






Radia












=C2=A0




On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com=
> wrote:








Hi Radia,



=C2=A0


We just updated the dr=
aft,

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-frame=
work/. 



Your comments are addr=
essed in the latest version.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Yemin (Amy)


Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM

To: 'Daniele Ceccarelli' <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<=
/a>>; Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>;

draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia,



=C2=A0


Thanks for your review=
.



=C2=A0


Regarding the NMS and =
SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the following text in section 3:



=E2=80=9CIt's note=
d that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving towards a compone=
nt, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact is
 that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as th=
e implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the ce=
ntralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate componen=
t.=E2=80=9D


=C2=A0


Regarding the security=
 considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t specify the parameters.



There=E2=80=99s anothe=
r draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the security consideration is addre=
ssed as you suggested.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli=
@ericsson.com]


Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM

To: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>;

draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia,






=C2=A0


let me reply on behalf of the authors. First of all =
many thanks for your review.


=C2=A0


Regarding your question about traditional NMS vs SDN=
 I agree with you on the fact that they are evolving towards a common compo=
nent and the distinction is quite blurry, but there
 is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as the implement=
ation of the management plane while SDN the centralization of the control p=
lane and they are still kept as separate things.


=C2=A0


Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9Ctradit=
ional=E2=80=9D NMS and SDN I would tend to allow for the distinction to be =
kept. If you prefer a note speaking about the convergence of the two
 things can be added.


=C2=A0


Thanks a lot


Daniele=C2=A0 (ccamp co-chair)


=C2=A0








From: Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com]


Sent: luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55

To: 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-=
05






=C2=A0




Sorry...resending because I mistyp=
ed the author address.




=C2=A0






=C2=A0




---=
------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM

Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05

To: 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, T=
he IESG <iesg@ietf.or=
g>,
secdir@ietf.org




Summary:=C2=A0 No security i=
ssues found, but I do have questions, and there are editing glitches=





=C2=A0






I have reviewed this documen=
t as part of the security directorate's ongoing

effort to=C2=A0review=C2=A0all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=
=A0 These

comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area

directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments=
 just

like any other last call comments.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






This document describes the manage=
ment interface for microwave radio links.






It advocates (correctly, I believe=
) that such an interface should be extensible to provide for vendor-specifi=
c features.






=C2=A0






I don't understand the differe=
nce between a "a traditional network management system" and SDN.=
=C2=A0 Perhaps it is not the job of this document to clearly make the disti=
nction,
 and I suspect there is no real distinction...setting parameters (tradition=
al network management) is a way of "programming" an interface (&q=
uot;SDN").=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This document could use an editing=
 pass for glitches, but these glitches do not impact its readability.






=C2=A0






The glitches consist=C2=A0 mostly =
of leaving out little words like "of" in the following sentence.<=
/span>






"The adoption of an SDN frame=
work for management and






=C2=A0 =C2=A0control the microwave=
 interface is one of the key applications for






=C2=A0 =C2=A0this work."






=C2=A0






The security considerations say th=
at they assume a secure transport layer (authenticated, probably encryption=
 isn't necessary) for communication.=C2=A0 Other than that,
 perhaps, there might be security considerations for inadvertently setting =
parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted administrator.=C2=A0 Bu=
t this document does not specify the specific parameters to be managed, jus=
t a general framework.






=C2=A0






Radia








=C2=A0










=C2=A0




















=C2=A0












--0000000000005710d0056c9add87--


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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" 
To: Radia Perlman , Eric Gray 
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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From: Radia Perlman 
Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 00:07:15 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: "Yemin (Amy)" 
Cc: Eric Gray , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , The IESG ,  "ccamp@ietf.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
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Amy...I think your proposed text is excellent.

Radia

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 10:51 PM, Yemin (Amy)  wrote:

> Hi Eric, Radia, and Deborah,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the discussion. Considering all the comments received, below i=
s
> the new proposed text for this paragraph:
>
>
>
>    This framework addresses the definition of an open and standardized
> interface for the
>
>    radio link functionality in a microwave node.  The application of such
> an interface used
>
>    for management and control of nodes and networks typically vary from
> one operator
>
>    to another, in terms of the systems used and how they interact.
> Possible approaches
>
>    include via the use of a network management system (NMS), via software
> defined
>
>    networking (SDN) and via some combination of NMS and SDN. As there are
> still many
>
>    networks where the NMS is implemented as one component/interface and
> the SDN
>
>    controller is scoped to control plane functionality as a separate
> component/interface,
>
>    this document does not preclude either model. The aim of this document
> is to provide a
>
>    framework describing both management and control of microwave
> interfaces to support
>
>    development of a common YANG Data Model.
>
>
>
> Please check if the text is ok.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Eric Gray [mailto:eric.gray@ericsson.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 22, 2018 2:57 AM
> *To:* Radia Perlman 
> *Cc:* Yemin (Amy) ; The IESG ;
> ccamp@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework-05
>
>
>
> So, one could read this as saying that some people view network managemen=
t
> (e.g. =E2=80=93 use of an NMS) and centralized network control (e.g. =E2=
=80=93 SDN) as
> being somehow at least marginally distinct, yet becoming increasingly les=
s
> so.  Other people view them as completely disjoint, perhaps having a
> preference, and would like them to continue being considered completely
> separate and distinct concepts.
>
>
>
> While I think it is probably fair to say that this is very likely true,
> this has all the ear marks of being a rat hole, and I cannot imagine what
> value the proposed text adds to the draft.
>
>
>
> As I understand it, the intent was to clarify something to do with the
> following text:
>
>
>
>
>
>    This framework addresses the definition of an open and standardized
>
>    interface for the radio link functionality in a microwave node.  The
>
>    application of such an interface used for management and control of
>
>    nodes and networks typically vary from one operator to another, in
>
>    terms of the systems used and how they interact.  A traditional
>
>    solution is network management system, while an emerging one is SDN.
>
>    SDN solutions can be used as part of the network management system,
>
>    allowing for direct network programmability and automated
>
>    configurability by means of a centralized SDN control and
>
>    standardized interfaces to program the nodes.
>
>
>
> Your comment was that the distinction is not clear.  That is a fair
> point.  And it is probably not addressed by the proposal.
>
>
>
> I would further add that using emotionally freighted expressions
> (=E2=80=9Cclassic=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dlegacy=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dtraditional=
=E2=80=9D verses =E2=80=9Cinnovative=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dnovel=E2=80=9D/=E2=
=80=9Demerging=E2=80=9D)
> doesn=E2=80=99t help and really isn=E2=80=99t appropriate in specificatio=
n.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the reason for claiming a distinction exists (however
> difficult it may be to characterize that distinction) is in the part of t=
he
> above text having to do with operator preferences.  These definitely do
> exist.  =F0=9F=98=8A
>
>
>
> Perhaps a good way to address the issue is to replace the last two
> sentences in the text above with something along the lines of:
>
>
>
>     =E2=80=9CPossible approaches include via the use of a network managem=
ent
> system (NMS), via software defined networking (SDN) and via some
> combination of NMS and SDN.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Note that =E2=80=9Cautomated configurability=E2=80=9D is * not* a new con=
cept in
> configuration of network devices, unique to SDN, hence the last part of t=
he
> final sentence (starting with =E2=80=9Callowing for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D) a=
dds no value and should be
> left out.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> *From:* Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 19, 2018 11:35 PM
> *To:* Eric Gray 
> *Cc:* Yemin (Amy) ; The IESG ;
> ccamp@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework-05
> *Importance:* High
>
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>
>
> I feel bad for the authors of this document to be burdened with clarifyin=
g
> a distinction that has never been clear before (to lots of people,
> including me),  but their proposed text doesn't make it clearer.
>
>
>
> " =E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving=
 towards
> a component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fac=
t
> is that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered a=
s
> the implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as th=
e
> centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate
> component"
>
>
>
>  Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for text that acknowledges to
> the reader that it's not the reader's fault for not understanding the
> difference?
>
>
>
> It would be OK with me for them to leave out  the extra entirely, since
> I'm sure this isn't the first RFC whose verbiage claims SDN and NMS are t=
wo
> different concepts. But if I were trying to get up to speed about this ar=
ea
> by reading the documents, I'd be somewhat comforted by an acknowledgement
> (such as the text they propose, but with the English fixed) that these ar=
e
> fuzzy distinctions, so I wouldn't think it was just me....that if I only
> read more things, or thought harder, or had more background, the
> distinction would be clear.
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Eric Gray  wrote=
:
>
> Hi Radia.
>
>
>
> I agree that the English is awkward, but I would have interpreted
> =E2=80=9Cevolving toward a component=E2=80=9D to mean something more alon=
g the lines of
> evolving toward the same (singular) thing.  Or perhaps another way to loo=
k
> at it might be that, because YANG is becoming a more popular mechanism fo=
r
> both NMS and SDN, it is likely that one or both of these may become
> components of a common management framework.
>
>
>
> I would interpret it this way precisely because =E2=80=93 as you say =E2=
=80=93 the
> distinction is not at all clear, though I would add that (to some of us)
> the distinction has never been very clear.  =F0=9F=98=8A
>
>
>
> For this reason, I would have some small difficulty in seeing how it woul=
d
> make much sense to say that they are evolving toward increasing similarit=
y.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> *From:* CCAMP [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Radia Perlma=
n
> *Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2018 12:30 AM
> *To:* Yemin (Amy) 
> *Cc:* The IESG ; ccamp@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework-05
>
>
>
> Thank you!  Though what you're suggesting is awkward English.
>
>
>
> Perhaps "We note that the distinction between NMS and SDN is not all that
> clear, and the two are evolving to be more and more similar." could repla=
ce
> the first sentence.  I'm really not sure what you meant by "evolving towa=
rd
> a component", so perhaps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.
>
>
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Yemin (Amy)  wrote=
:
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> We just updated the draft, https://datatracker.ietf.org/
> doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework/.
>
> Your comments are addressed in the latest version.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Yemin (Amy)
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM
> *To:* 'Daniele Ceccarelli' ; Radia
> Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your review.
>
>
>
> Regarding the NMS and SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the followin=
g
> text in section 3:
>
> =E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving t=
owards a
> component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact =
is
> that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as t=
he
> implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the
> centralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate
> component.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Regarding the security considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t sp=
ecify the
> parameters.
>
> There=E2=80=99s another draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the securit=
y
> consideration is addressed as you suggested.
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Amy
>
> *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM
> *To:* Radia Perlman ; draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-
> framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG ; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Hi Radia,
>
>
>
> let me reply on behalf of the authors. First of all many thanks for your
> review.
>
>
>
> Regarding your question about traditional NMS vs SDN I agree with you on
> the fact that they are evolving towards a common component and the
> distinction is quite blurry, but there is still plenty of networks where
> NMS is still considered as the implementation of the management plane whi=
le
> SDN the centralization of the control plane and they are still kept as
> separate things.
>
>
>
> Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D NMS an=
d SDN I would
> tend to allow for the distinction to be kept. If you prefer a note speaki=
ng
> about the convergence of the two things can be added.
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> Daniele  (ccamp co-chair)
>
>
>
> *From:* Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com
> ]
> *Sent:* luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55
> *To:* draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; secdir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
>
>
>
> Sorry...resending because I mistyped the author address.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Radia Perlman* 
> Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM
> Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05
> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG =
<
> iesg@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org
>
> Summary:  No security issues found, but I do have questions, and there ar=
e
> editing glitches
>
>
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoi=
ng
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments ju=
st
> like any other last call comments.
>
>
>
> This document describes the management interface for microwave radio link=
s.
>
> It advocates (correctly, I believe) that such an interface should be
> extensible to provide for vendor-specific features.
>
>
>
> I don't understand the difference between a "a traditional network
> management system" and SDN.  Perhaps it is not the job of this document t=
o
> clearly make the distinction, and I suspect there is no real
> distinction...setting parameters (traditional network management) is a wa=
y
> of "programming" an interface ("SDN").
>
>
>
> This document could use an editing pass for glitches, but these glitches
> do not impact its readability.
>
>
>
> The glitches consist  mostly of leaving out little words like "of" in the
> following sentence.
>
> "The adoption of an SDN framework for management and
>
>    control the microwave interface is one of the key applications for
>
>    this work."
>
>
>
> The security considerations say that they assume a secure transport layer
> (authenticated, probably encryption isn't necessary) for communication.
> Other than that, perhaps, there might be security considerations for
> inadvertently setting parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted
> administrator.  But this document does not specify the specific parameter=
s
> to be managed, just a general framework.
>
>
>
> Radia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000bcaf2b056cc38d24
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Amy...I think your proposed text is excellent.

Radia

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 10:51 PM, Yemin (Amy) <=
;amy.yemin@huawei=
.com> wrote:











Hi Eric, Radia, and De=
borah, 



=C2=A0


Thanks for the discuss=
ion. Considering all the comments received, below is the new proposed text =
for this paragraph:



=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 This framework addres=
ses the definition of an open and standardized interface for the



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0radio link funct=
ionality in a microwave node.=C2=A0 The application of such an interface us=
ed



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0for management a=
nd control of nodes and networks typically vary from one operator



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0to anothe=
r, in terms of the systems used and how they interact. Possible approaches



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0include via the =
use of a network management system (NMS), via software defined



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0networkin=
g (SDN) and via some combination of NMS and SDN. As there are still many=



=C2=A0=C2=A0 networks where the NM=
S is implemented as one component/interface and the SDN



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0controller is sc=
oped to control plane functionality as a separate component/interface,



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0this document do=
es not preclude either model. The aim of this document is to provide a



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0framework descri=
bing both management and control of microwave interfaces to support<=
u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0 development of a comm=
on YANG Data Model. 



=C2=A0


Please check if=
 the text is ok. 



Thanks. =



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Eric Gray [mailto:eric.gray@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 2:57 AM

To: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>

Cc: Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; ccamp@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org; draft-i=
etf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org

Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microw=
ave-framework-05






=C2=A0


So, one could read this as saying that some people v=
iew network management (e.g. =E2=80=93 use of an NMS) and centralized netwo=
rk control (e.g. =E2=80=93 SDN) as being somehow at least marginally distin=
ct, yet becoming increasingly less so.=C2=A0 Other people
 view them as completely disjoint, perhaps having a preference, and would l=
ike them to continue being considered completely separate and distinct conc=
epts.


=C2=A0


While I think it is probably fair to say that this i=
s very likely true, this has all the ear marks of being a rat hole, and I c=
annot imagine what value the proposed text adds to the draft.=



=C2=A0


As I understand it, the intent was to clarify someth=
ing to do with the following text:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0<=
/p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 This framework =
addresses the definition of an open and standardized

=C2=A0=C2=A0 interface for t=
he radio link functionality in a microwave node.=C2=A0 The


=C2=A0=C2=A0 application of =
such an interface used for management and control of

=C2=A0=C2=A0 nodes and netwo=
rks typically vary from one operator to another, in

=C2=A0=C2=A0 terms of the sy=
stems used and how they interact.=C2=A0 A traditional<=
/p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 solution is net=
work management system, while an emerging one is SDN.<=
/p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 SDN solutions c=
an be used as part of the network management system,

=C2=A0=C2=A0 allowing for di=
rect network programmability and automated


=C2=A0=C2=A0 configurability=
 by means of a centralized SDN control and


=C2=A0=C2=A0 standardized in=
terfaces to program the nodes.


=C2=A0


Your comment was that the distinct=
ion is not clear.=C2=A0 That is a fair point.=C2=A0 And it is probably not =
addressed by the proposal.


=C2=A0


I would further add that using emo=
tionally freighted expressions (=E2=80=9Cclassic=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dlegacy=
=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dtraditional=E2=80=9D verses =E2=80=9Cinnovative=E2=
=80=9D/=E2=80=9Dnovel=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Demerging=E2=80=9D) doesn=E2=80=
=99t help and really isn=E2=80=99t appropriate in specification.<=
/u>


=C2=A0


I suspect that the reason for clai=
ming a distinction exists (however difficult it may be to characterize that=
 distinction) is in the part of the above text having to do with operator p=
references.=C2=A0 These definitely do exist.=C2=A0
=F0=9F=98=8A


=C2=A0


Perhaps a good way to address the =
issue is to replace the last two sentences in the text above with something=
 along the lines of:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CPossible approaches includ=
e via the use of a network management system (NMS), via software defined ne=
tworking (SDN) and via some combination of NMS and SDN.=E2=80=9D<=
/u>


=C2=A0


Note that =E2=80=9Cautomated confi=
gurability=E2=80=9D is 
not a new concept in configuration of network devices, un=
ique to SDN, hence the last part of the final sentence (starting with =E2=
=80=9Callowing for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D) adds no value and should be left out=
.


=C2=A0


--


Eric


=C2=A0


From: Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com]


Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 11:35 PM

To: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>

Cc: Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>;
ccamp@ietf.org; 
secdir@ietf.org; 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org

Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05

Importance: High


=C2=A0




Hi Eric,




=C2=A0






I feel bad for the authors of this document to be bu=
rdened with clarifying a distinction that has never been clear before (to l=
ots of people, including me),=C2=A0 but their proposed text doesn't mak=
e it clearer.






=C2=A0






" 
=E2=80=9CIt's noted that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evol=
ving towards a component, and the distinction between them is quite vague. =
Another fact is that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still c=
onsidered as the implementation of the management
 plane, while SDN is considered as the centralization of the control plane.=
 They are still kept as separate component"






=C2=A0






=C2=A0Do you (or anyone=
 else) have a suggestion for text that acknowledges to the reader that it&#=
39;s not the reader's fault for not understanding the difference?






=C2=A0






It wou=
ld be OK with me for them to leave out=C2=A0 the extra entirely, since I=
9;m sure this isn't the first RFC whose verbiage claims SDN and NMS are=
 two different concepts. But if I were trying to
 get up to speed about this area by reading the documents, I'd be somew=
hat comforted by an acknowledgement (such as the text they propose, but wit=
h the English fixed) that these are fuzzy distinctions, so I wouldn't t=
hink it was just me....that if I only read
 more things, or thought harder, or had more background, the distinction wo=
uld be clear.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Radia<=
/span>






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0








=C2=A0




On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.c=
om> wrote:








Hi Radia.


=C2=A0


I agree that the English is awkward, but I would hav=
e interpreted =E2=80=9Cevolving toward a component=E2=80=9D to mean somethi=
ng more along the lines of evolving toward the same (singular) thing.=C2=A0
 Or perhaps another way to look at it might be that, because YANG is becomi=
ng a more popular mechanism for both NMS and SDN, it is likely that one or =
both of these may become components of a common management framework.


=C2=A0


I would interpret it this way precisely because =E2=
=80=93 as you say =E2=80=93 the distinction is not at all clear, though I w=
ould add that (to some of us) the distinction has never been very clear.=C2=
=A0
=F0=9F=98=8A<=
/span>


=C2=A0


For this reason, I would have some small difficulty =
in seeing how it would make much sense to say that they are evolving toward=
 increasing similarity.


=C2=A0


--


Eric


=C2=A0


From: CCAMP [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Radia Perlman

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 12:30 AM

To: Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com>

Cc: The IESG <=
iesg@ietf.org>;
ccamp@ietf.org; 
secdir@ietf.org; 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org

Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05


=C2=A0




Thank you!=C2=A0 Though what you're suggesting i=
s awkward English.








=C2=A0






Perhaps "We note that the distinction between N=
MS and SDN is not all that clear, and the two are evolving to be more and m=
ore similar." could replace the first sentence.=C2=A0 I'm really
 not sure what you meant by "evolving toward a component", so per=
haps I'm not capturing what you are intending to say.




=C2=A0








=C2=A0






Radia




















=C2=A0




On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Yemin (Amy) <amy.yemin@huawei.com=
> wrote:








Hi Radia,



=C2=A0


We just updated the dr=
aft,

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-frame=
work/. 



Your comments are addr=
essed in the latest version.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Yemin (Amy)


Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:07 PM

To: 'Daniele Ceccarelli' <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<=
/a>>; Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>;

draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia,



=C2=A0


Thanks for your review=
.



=C2=A0


Regarding the NMS and =
SDN, as Daniele suggested, we will add the following text in section 3:



=E2=80=9CIt's note=
d that there's idea that the NMS and SDN are evolving towards a compone=
nt, and the distinction between them is quite vague. Another fact is
 that there is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as th=
e implementation of the management plane, while SDN is considered as the ce=
ntralization of the control plane. They are still kept as separate componen=
t.=E2=80=9D


=C2=A0


Regarding the security=
 considerations, yes, this draft doesn=E2=80=99t specify the parameters.



There=E2=80=99s anothe=
r draft draft-ietf-ccamp-mw-yang, where the security consideration is addre=
ssed as you suggested.



=C2=A0


BR,


Amy






From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli=
@ericsson.com]


Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:46 PM

To: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>;

draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framew=
ork-05






=C2=A0


Hi Radia,






=C2=A0


let me reply on behalf of the authors. First of all =
many thanks for your review.


=C2=A0


Regarding your question about traditional NMS vs SDN=
 I agree with you on the fact that they are evolving towards a common compo=
nent and the distinction is quite blurry, but there
 is still plenty of networks where NMS is still considered as the implement=
ation of the management plane while SDN the centralization of the control p=
lane and they are still kept as separate things.


=C2=A0


Hence, since the authors speak about =E2=80=9Ctradit=
ional=E2=80=9D NMS and SDN I would tend to allow for the distinction to be =
kept. If you prefer a note speaking about the convergence of the two
 things can be added.


=C2=A0


Thanks a lot


Daniele=C2=A0 (ccamp co-chair)


=C2=A0








From: Radia Perlman [mailto:radiaperlman@gmail.com]


Sent: luned=C3=AC 7 maggio 2018 08:55

To: 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework.all@tools.ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;;
secdir@ietf.org
Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-=
05






=C2=A0




Sorry...resending because I mistyp=
ed the author address.




=C2=A0






=C2=A0




---=
------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:48 PM

Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05

To: 
draft-ietf-ccamp-microwave-framework-05.all@tools.ietf.org, T=
he IESG <iesg@ietf.or=
g>,
secdir@ietf.org




Summary:=C2=A0 No security i=
ssues found, but I do have questions, and there are editing glitches=





=C2=A0






I have reviewed this documen=
t as part of the security directorate's ongoing

effort to=C2=A0review=C2=A0all IETF documents being proc=
essed by the IESG.=C2=A0 These

comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area

directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments=
 just

like any other last call comments.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






This document describes the manage=
ment interface for microwave radio links.






It advocates (correctly, I believe=
) that such an interface should be extensible to provide for vendor-specifi=
c features.






=C2=A0






I don't understand the differe=
nce between a "a traditional network management system" and SDN.=
=C2=A0 Perhaps it is not the job of this document to clearly make the disti=
nction,
 and I suspect there is no real distinction...setting parameters (tradition=
al network management) is a way of "programming" an interface (&q=
uot;SDN").=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This document could use an editing=
 pass for glitches, but these glitches do not impact its readability.






=C2=A0






The glitches consist=C2=A0 mostly =
of leaving out little words like "of" in the following sentence.<=
/span>






"The adoption of an SDN frame=
work for management and






=C2=A0 =C2=A0control the microwave=
 interface is one of the key applications for






=C2=A0 =C2=A0this work."






=C2=A0






The security considerations say th=
at they assume a secure transport layer (authenticated, probably encryption=
 isn't necessary) for communication.=C2=A0 Other than that,
 perhaps, there might be security considerations for inadvertently setting =
parameters incorrectly, or maliciously by a trusted administrator.=C2=A0 Bu=
t this document does not specify the specific parameters to be managed, jus=
t a general framework.






=C2=A0






Radia








=C2=A0










=C2=A0




















=C2=A0
















=C2=A0












--000000000000bcaf2b056cc38d24--


From nobody Thu May 24 08:45:20 2018
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From: Takeshi Takahashi 
To: 
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop.all@ietf.org, spring@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org
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Reviewer: Takeshi Takahashi
Review result: Ready

I have only minor comments.

The section said that security issues in this document are mostly inherited
from the underlying techniques/specs. Some pointers to RFC documents describing
the security issues of MPLS dataplane, routing protocols, and so on (if any)
could help readers. Having these pointers in this section will not harm readers.

Some typo:
In Section 1: "co- exist" (unnecessary space)-> "co-exist"
In Section 2.1: "switches it our" -> "switches it out"

Spelling out is appreciated: LDP and FEC

Clarification question:
Regarding the paragraph "P6 does not have an LDP binding from its next-hop P5
for the FEC "PE1". However P6 has an SR node segment to the IGP route "PE1".
Hence, P6 forwards the packet to P5 and swaps its local LDP-label for FEC "PE1"
by the equivalent node segment (i.e. 101)."(in Section 4.1), I have got the
impression that the behavior of P6 is not defined by any other specs (incl,
LDP) and is a behavior this document newly defines, correct?  If it is correct,
must P6 support this behavior? or is it just optional? I am not familiar with
these routing protocols, thus clarification is appreciated.


From nobody Fri May 25 02:32:53 2018
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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2018-06-07

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Vincent Roca           2018-05-21 draft-hakala-urn-nbn-rfc3188bis-00
Melinda Shore          2018-05-30 draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-15
Carl Wallace           2018-05-21 draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets-05
David Waltermire       2018-05-21 draft-ietf-extra-imap-unauth-00

For telechat 2018-06-21

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Sandra Murphy          2018-04-24 draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-simulcast-12

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
John Bradley           2018-04-18 draft-ietf-acme-acme-12
Daniel Gillmor         2018-03-19 draft-gutmann-scep-10
Russ Mundy             2017-09-14 draft-spinosa-urn-lex-12
Tina Tsou              2018-05-21 draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-04
Sean Turner            2018-05-21 draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical-08
Samuel Weiler          2018-05-21 draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16
Brian Weis             2018-06-04 draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-06

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Daniel Franke          2018-01-31 draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-00
Ólafur Guðmundsson     2018-01-09 draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-09
Dan Harkins            2018-05-31 draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-06

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Klaas Wierenga
  Christopher Wood
  Paul Wouters
  Liang Xia
  Taylor Yu
  Dacheng Zhang
  Derek Atkins
  John Bradley
  Shaun Cooley
  Roman Danyliw


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Hello,

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate=E2=80=99=
s ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments =
just
like any other last call comments.

Summary: Ready with nits


This document specifies the use of National Bibliography Numbers (NBN)s =
as a particular URN namespace.
The authors explain that "no specific security threats have been =
identified for NBN-based URNs".
The authors also explain that, since this document specifies high level =
concepts, several security aspects are out of scope.
I tend to agree with the authors, although I don't know the domain.


Otherwise a few general comments:

ABNF compliance:

* Section 5: please check the ABNF compliance, for instance using Bill's =
ABNF Parser, https://tools.ietf.org/tools/bap/abnf.cgi
I guess you mean:
        nbn_string  =3D 
rather than:
        nbn_string  =3D <specific per prefix>
The checker also complains with rule names (Illegal character '_').


Typos:

* Introduction: remove "to" in "must to have a namespace of its own" (or =
do you mean "too"?).

* Introduction: rather than "ISSN (International Serial Standard =
Number)", it seems (wikipedia) that the acronym stands for =
"International Standard Serial Number".


Regards,

   Vincent=

--Apple-Mail=_F15D2211-D8D5-4749-BA4E-93B5F8547E07
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

Hello,

I have reviewed this document as part of the =
security directorate=E2=80=99s ongoing
effort to review =
all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the =
security area
directors.  Document editors and WG =
chairs should treat these comments just
like any other =
last call comments.

Summary: Ready with nits


This document specifies the use of National Bibliography =
Numbers (NBN)s as a particular URN namespace.
The =
authors explain that "no specific security threats have been identified =
for NBN-based URNs".
The authors also explain that, =
since this document specifies high level concepts, several security =
aspects are out of scope.
I tend to agree with the =
authors, although I don't know the domain.


Otherwise a few general comments:

ABNF compliance:
* Section 5: please check the ABNF =
compliance, for instance using Bill's ABNF Parser, https://tools.ietf.org/tools/bap/abnf.cgi
I guess you mean:
      =
  nbn_string  =3D <specific per prefix>
rather than:
        =
nbn_string  =3D &lt;specific per prefix&gt;
The checker also complains with rule names (Illegal character =
'_').


Typos:

* Introduction: remove "to" in "must to =
have a namespace of its own" (or do you mean "too"?).

* Introduction: rather =
than "ISSN (International Serial Standard Number)", it seems (wikipedia) =
that the acronym stands for "International Standard Serial =
Number".


Regards,

  =
 Vincent
=

--Apple-Mail=_F15D2211-D8D5-4749-BA4E-93B5F8547E07--


From nobody Tue May 29 07:19:13 2018
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From: Sean Turner 
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Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 07:19:11 -0700
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical-08
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Reviewer: Sean Turner
Review result: Ready

Hi! I’m no expert on SFC so I spent some time reviewing RFC7665 and Simon
Josefsson’s secdir review [0] as well as RFC 8300 and 8393.  It looks like all
the things I was going to pick on are addressed by the references.

I’ll let somebody else on the IESG debate whether Figure 4 is trying to be a
little different than the rest of this architectural document by specify some
protocols bits; informational still?

[0]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-architecture-08-secdir-lc-josefsson-2015-05-28/


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To: Vincent Roca , The IESG , secdir@ietf.org, draft-hakala-urn-nbn-rfc3188bis.all@ietf.org
References: <623421A0-B3BE-43CA-87AD-9B0AA6EF14F4@inria.fr>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-hakala-urn-nbn-rfc3188bis-00
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Hi Vincent, thanks for your review. I'm the document shepherd and the
author is on holiday right now, so I'll reply on a few points.

On 5/25/18 8:23 AM, Vincent Roca wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate’s ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
> 
> Summary: *Ready with nits*
> 
> 
> This document specifies the use of National Bibliography Numbers (NBN)s
> as a particular URN namespace.
> The authors explain that "no specific security threats have been
> identified for NBN-based URNs".
> The authors also explain that, since this document specifies high level
> concepts, several security aspects are out of scope.
> I tend to agree with the authors, although I don't know the domain.

Would you like to see a bit more explanatory text on these matters?

> Otherwise a few general comments:
> 
> ABNF compliance:
> 
> * Section 5: please check the ABNF compliance, for instance using Bill's
> ABNF Parser, https://tools.ietf.org/tools/bap/abnf.cgi
> I guess you mean:
>         nbn_string  = 
> rather than:
>         nbn_string  = <specific per prefix>
> The checker also complains with rule names (Illegal character '_').

This has been noted and will be fixed in -01, see here:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/urn/current/msg03891.html

> Typos:
> 
> * Introduction: remove "to" in "must to have a namespace of its own" (or
> do you mean "too"?).
> 
> * Introduction: rather than "ISSN (International Serial Standard
> Number)", it seems (wikipedia) that the acronym stands for
> "International Standard Serial Number".

Thanks for the review!

Peter


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I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate=E2=80=99s
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments
just like any other last call comments.

This document defines a mechanism for running the WebSocket Protocol (RFC
6455 ) over a single stream of an HTTP/2 connection. The mechanism takes
the form of a new SETTINGS parameter and a new pseudo-header. The document
is well-written and I see no issues with it other than some friction with
this statement in section 8.1.2.1 of RFC7540:

	"Endpoints MUST NOT generate pseudo-header fields other than those
defined in this document."

The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field in
section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to section
5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the
prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod to
7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in
draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?


One minor nit, section 3 states "a sender MUST NOT send a
SETTINGS_ENABLE_CONNECT_PROTOCOL parameter with the value of 0 after
previously sending a value of 1". This reads as though one could never
turn off web socket support once enabled.=20



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From: Patrick McManus 
Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 13:49:39 -0400
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To: Carl Wallace 
Cc: draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org,  The IESG 
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Hey Carl, thanks for doing this

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Carl Wallace 
wrote:

>
> The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field in
> section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to section
> 5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the
> prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod to
> 7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in
> draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?
>
>
imo no update to 7540 is needed. the wg also considered the question and
had the same conclusion. I will highlight the reasoning:

5.5 .  Extending HTTP/2

   HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
   described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to provide
   additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  Extensions
   are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.

note "alter any aspect of this protocol"

[..]

   Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
   components MUST be negotiated before being used.

This is one of the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets
extension needs to be negotiated (and it is).

[..] For example, an extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame
cannot be used until the peer has given a positive signal that this is
acceptable.
 In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the revised
layout comes into effect. Note that treating any frames other than DATA
frames as flow controlled is such a change in semantics and can only be
done through negotiation.

These two examples are also powerful citations that negotiated extensions
can change the interpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as existing
frame layouts and even flow control rules (both of which have MUSTs
associated with them).

The whole section is a little bit confusing because it also enumerates a
few extension points that the websockets draft is not using. But those are
specifically enumerated because they can be used without negotiated opt-in
and implementations not aware of the extensions need to take care to keep
them clean and available for extending (so there are requirements even if
you're not implementing the extension). As the example paragraph shows,
extensions are not solely limited to that model.

Cheers
-Patrick

--000000000000bfdb41056d5bdbd5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hey Carl, thanks for doing this

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Ca=
rl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wrote:



The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field=
 in

section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to section<=
br>
5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the

prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod to<=
br>
7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in

draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?



imo no update to 7540 is needed. the w=
g also considered the question and had the same conclusion. I will highligh=
t the reasoning:

=

5.5.  Exten=
ding HTTP/2


   HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
   described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to provide
   additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  Extensions
   are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.
note "alter any aspect of this protocol"<=
br>
[..]

   Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
   components MUST be negotiated before being used. 
This is on=
e of the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets extension needs to=
 be negotiated (and it is).
[..] For example, an
   extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame cannot be used
   until the peer has given a positive signal that this is acceptable.
=
=C2=A0In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the
   revised layout comes into effect.  Note that treating any frames
   other than DATA frames as flow controlled is such a change in
   semantics and can only be done through negotiation.
These two examp=
les are also powerful citations that negotiated extensions can change the i=
nterpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as existing frame layouts and ev=
en flow control rules (both of which have MUSTs associated with them).

The whole section is a little bit confusing because it=
 also enumerates a few extension points that the websockets draft is not us=
ing. But those are specifically enumerated because they can be used without=
 negotiated opt-in and implementations not aware of the extensions need to =
take care to keep them clean and available for extending (so there are requ=
irements even if you're not implementing the extension). As the example=
 paragraph shows, extensions are not solely limited to that model.

Cheers
-Patrick





--000000000000bfdb41056d5bdbd5--


From nobody Tue May 29 10:50:14 2018
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From: David Waltermire 
To: 
Cc: extra@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-extra-imap-unauth.all@ietf.org
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-extra-imap-unauth-00
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Reviewer: David Waltermire
Review result: Has Nits

This standards track draft adds a new state transition to IMAP allowing the
current authentication context to be reset to an non-authenticated state using
the UNAUTHENTICATE command. This allows a client to issue the IMAP AUTHENTICATE
command with administrative credentials to act on behalf of other users,
without having to create a new connection for each user, providing for greater
efficiency.

This draft appears to be ready for publication, with some relatively minor nits
to improve readability.

Section 4.1: The requirements in this list go beyond the stated requirement to
reset connection state. Some text should be added to make it clear that the
list defines additional behavior to be followed.

Something like the following could be used to address this:

s/This lists some IMAP extensions that have connection state that/The
connection state for the following list of IMAP extensions/

Append to the end of the paragraph "Additional requirements apply to specific
extensions as follows:".


From nobody Tue May 29 12:37:20 2018
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Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 15:37:02 -0400
From: Carl Wallace 
To: Patrick McManus 
CC: , , The IESG 
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Thread-Topic: secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets
References:  
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Your reasoning makes sense but it requires an awfully careful reading to
counter the clarity of the prohibition on new pseudo-headers. Maybe an
errata could be filed against 7540 to clarify the "alter any aspect of this
protocol" where the prohibition  is asserted for the benefit of future
readers. For example, something like "Endpoints MUST NOT generate
pseudo-header fields other than those defined in this document, except where
support for additional pseudo-headers is negotiated as permitted in section
5.5" would help.

From:  Patrick McManus 
Date:  Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 1:49 PM
To:  Carl Wallace 
Cc:  , , The
IESG 
Subject:  Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets

> Hey Carl, thanks for doing this
> 
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Carl Wallace 
> wrote:
>> 
>> The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field in
>> section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to section
>> 5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the
>> prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod to
>> 7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in
>> draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?
>> 
> 
> imo no update to 7540 is needed. the wg also considered the question and had
> the same conclusion. I will highlight the reasoning:
> 
> 5.5  .  Extending HTTP/2
> 
> 
>    HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
>    described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to provide
>    additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  Extensions
>    are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.
> 
> note "alter any aspect of this protocol"
> [..]
> 
>    Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
>    components MUST be negotiated before being used.
> This is one of the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets extension
> needs to be negotiated (and it is).
> [..] For example, an
>    extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame cannot be used
>    until the peer has given a positive signal that this is acceptable.
>  In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the
>    revised layout comes into effect.  Note that treating any frames
>    other than DATA frames as flow controlled is such a change in
>    semantics and can only be done through negotiation.
> These two examples are also powerful citations that negotiated extensions can
> change the interpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as existing frame
> layouts and even flow control rules (both of which have MUSTs associated with
> them).
> 
> The whole section is a little bit confusing because it also enumerates a few
> extension points that the websockets draft is not using. But those are
> specifically enumerated because they can be used without negotiated opt-in and
> implementations not aware of the extensions need to take care to keep them
> clean and available for extending (so there are requirements even if you're
> not implementing the extension). As the example paragraph shows, extensions
> are not solely limited to that model.
> 
> Cheers
> -Patrick
> 
> 
> 



--B_3610453025_11300491
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


Your reasoning makes sense bu=
t it requires an awfully careful reading to counter the clarity of the prohi=
bition on new pseudo-headers. Maybe an errata could be filed against 7540 to=
 clarify the "alter any aspect of this protocol" where the prohibition  =
;is asserted for the benefit of future readers. For example, something like =
"Endpoints MUST NOT generate pseudo-header fields other than those defined i=
n this document, except where support for additional pseudo-headers is negot=
iated as permitted in section 5.5" would help.

From:  Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
Date:  Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 1:49 PM
To:  Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Cc: <=
/span> <dr=
aft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets.all@ietf.org>, <secdir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets

=

Hey Carl=
, thanks for doing this

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Carl Wallace <=
carl@redhoundsoft=
ware.com> wrote:


The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field=
 in

section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to section<=
br>
5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the

prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod to<=
br>
7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in

draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?


<=
div>imo no update to 7540 is needed. the wg also considered the question and=
 had the same conclusion. I will highlight the reasoning:

=

5.5.  Extending HTTP/2


   HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
   described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to provide
   additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  Extensions
   are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.
note "alter any aspect of this protocol"
[..]

   Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
   components MUST be negotiated before being used. 
This is one of =
the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets extension needs to be ne=
gotiated (and it is).
[..] For example, an
   extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame cannot be used
   until the peer has given a positive signal that this is acceptable.
&=
nbsp;In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the
   revised layout comes into effect.  Note that treating any frames
   other than DATA frames as flow controlled is such a change in
   semantics and can only be done through negotiation.
These two examp=
les are also powerful citations that negotiated extensions can change the in=
terpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as existing frame layouts and even=
 flow control rules (both of which have MUSTs associated with them).

The whole section is a little bit confusing because it als=
o enumerates a few extension points that the websockets draft is not using. =
But those are specifically enumerated because they can be used without negot=
iated opt-in and implementations not aware of the extensions need to take ca=
re to keep them clean and available for extending (so there are requirements=
 even if you're not implementing the extension). As the example paragraph sh=
ows, extensions are not solely limited to that model.

Cheers
-Patrick





--B_3610453025_11300491--



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Subject: [secdir] [new-work] WG Review: Limited Additional Mechanisms for PKIX and SMIME (lamps)
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The Limited Additional Mechanisms for PKIX and SMIME (lamps) WG in the
Security Area of the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made
any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is
provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the
IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2018-06-06.

Limited Additional Mechanisms for PKIX and SMIME (lamps)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current status: Active WG

Chairs:
  Russ Housley 
  Timothy Hollebeek 

Assigned Area Director:
  Eric Rescorla 

Security Area Directors:
  Eric Rescorla 
  Benjamin Kaduk 

Mailing list:
  Address: spasm@ietf.org
  To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spasm
  Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spasm/

Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/lamps/

Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lamps/

The PKIX and S/MIME Working Groups have been closed for some time. Some
updates have been proposed to the X.509 certificate documents produced
by the PKIX Working Group and the electronic mail security documents
produced by the S/MIME Working Group.

The LAMPS (Limited Additional Mechanisms for PKIX and SMIME) Working
Group is chartered to make updates where there is a known constituency
interested in real deployment and there is at least one sufficiently
well specified approach to the update so that the working group can
sensibly evaluate whether to adopt a proposal.

The LAMPS WG is now tackling these topics:

1. Specify a discovery mechanism for CAA records to replace the one
described in RFC 6844.  Implementation experience has demonstrated an
ambiguity in the handling of CNAME and DNAME records during discovery
in RFC 6844, and subsequent discussion has suggested that a different
discovery approach would resolve limitations inherent in that approach.

2. Specify the use of SHAKE128/256 and SHAKE256/512 for PKIX and S/MIME.
Unlike the previous hashing standards, the SHA-3 family of functions are
the outcome of an open competition.  They have a clear design rationale
and have received a lot of public analysis, giving great confidence that
the SHA-3 family of functions are secure.  Also, since SHA-3 uses a very
different construction from SHA-2, the SHA-3 family of functions offers
an excellent alternative.  In particular, SHAKE128/256 and SHAKE256/512
offer security and performance benefits.

3. Specify the use of short-lived X.509 certificates for which no
revocation information is made available by the Certification Authority.
Short-lived certificates have a lifespan that is shorter than the time
needed to detect, report, and distribute revocation information, as a
result revoking them pointless.

4. Specify the use of a pre-shared key (PSK) along with other key
management techniques with supported by the Cryptographic Message
Syntax (CMS) as a near-term mechanism to protect present day
communication from the future invention of a large-scale quantum
computer.  The invention of a such a quantum computer would pose a
serious challenge for the key management algorithms that are widely
deployed, especially the key transport and key agreement algorithms
used today with the CMS to protect S/MIME messages.

5. Specify the use of hash-based signatures with the Cryptographic
Message Syntax (CMS).  A hash-based signature uses small private and
public keys, and it has low computational cost; however, the signature
values are quite large.  For this reason they might not be used for
signing X.509 certificates or S/MIME messages, but they are secure
even if a large-scale quantum computer is invented.  These properties
make hash-based signatures useful in some environments, such a the
distribution of software updates.

6. Specifies a certificate extension that is carried in a self-signed
certificate for a trust anchor, which is often called a Root
Certification Authority (CA) certificate, to identify the next
public key that will be used by the trust anchor.

In addition, the LAMPS WG may investigate other updates to documents
produced by the PKIX and S/MIME WGs, but the LAMPS WG shall not adopt
any of these potential work items without rechartering.

Milestones:

  Jun 2018 - Adopt a draft for short-lived certificate conventions

  Jun 2018 - Adopt a draft for the CMS with PSK

  Jun 2018 - Adopt a draft for hash-based signatures with the CMS

  Jun 2018 - Adopt a draft for root key rollover certificate extension

  Jul 2018 - rfc6844bis sent to IESG for standards track publication

  Aug 2018 - Root key rollover certificate extension sent to IESG for
  informational publication

  Sep 2018 - SHAKE128/256 and SHAKE256/512 for PKIX sent to IESG for 
  standards track publication

  Sep 2018 - SHAKE128/256 and SHAKE256/512 for S/MIME sent to IESG for 
  standards track publication

  Oct 2018 - Short-lived certificate conventions sent to IESG for BCP
  publication

  Oct 2018 - The CMS with PSK sent to IESG for standards track publication

  Dec 2018 - Hash-based signatures with the CMS sent to IESG for standards
  track publication


_______________________________________________
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To: secdir@ietf.org, "iesg@ietf.org" 
Cc: draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec.all@ietf.org
From: Dan Harkins 
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   Hello,

   I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
these comments just like any other last call comments.

   The summary of my review is: Almost-Ready.

   This draft describes a protocol called BPSec which "provides
end-to-end integrity and confidentiality services for BP bundles."
But it doesn't really define a security protocol because it leaves
key establishment and the actual ciphers used to afford end-to-end
protection to bundles to different documents. So it's sort of like
EAP in that respect.

  1. Issues with encryption and integrity protection

   There are 2 different blocks defined, a Block Integrity Block (BIB)
that provides integrity protection and a Block Confidentiality Block
(BCB) that encrypts the block. Apparently, the BCB does not also
provide integrity protection of its ciphertext since the draft says
that, while multiple security operations on the same block are invalid,
doing integrity protection and confidentiality on the same block is
valid. This opens up some insecure options that don't need to be allowed,
like integrity protect then encrypt, or integrity protect and encrypt.
I think it would be a good idea to mandate that whatever ciphersuite
is used for a BCB (again, the draft does not specify ciphersuites) that
it provides authenticated encryption. Then update the uniqueness
requirement in section 3.2.

   The example in figure 3 does authenticate-then-encrypt which is
not robust. This needs to change.

   The processing order in 5.1 states "BCBs MUST be evaluated first
and BIBs second." This is wrong, it's mandating a fragile construct
whose security depends on the cipher mode and that is dangerous.
Strongly suggest changing this and using and AEAD cipher.

   Also in 5.1: "If an encrypted payload block cannot be decrypted...."
How would you know? As long as it's the right size it will decrypt
into something. That something might be garbage but decryption was
successful. This is another reason to mandate AEAD. If it fails, it
fails hard, no two step required.

   My suggestion to use an AEAD cipher seems to conflict somewhat with the
fragmentation/reassembly text which says that application of a
confidentiality cipher suite MUST NOT alter the size of the payload.
That is going to have to be reconciled somehow. This document should
not allow anything other than encrypt-then-authenticate (and it should
do so by mandating AEAD ciphers) and if that requires some rewrite of
the fragmentation/reassembly text then so be it.

  II. Issues with RFC 2119 words

   I hate to be a stickler on stuff like this but...

   Section 2.2 which begins, "A bundle MAY have multiple security blocks
and these blocks MAY have different security sources." Now, to me, MAY
means it's optional and that if I don't implement it I can still stay
compliant. But that's not how I'm reading this. What I'm reading
is an admonition to not assume uniformity in bundles, which seems
like an important statement that is the opposite of the literal MAY
text. It's really you MUST NOT assume that a bundle has uniform
security.

   Section 3.3: "A set of security operations may be represented by a
single security block if and only if the following conditions are true...."
That sounds kind of normative.  Do the authors mean "A set of security
operations SHALL be represented by a single security block...."?

   Regarding the optional "Security Source" in the Abstract Security Block
in section 3.6: "If the security source field is not present then the
ource MAY be inferred from other information...." And that means I can
choose to not implement this optional inference. In which case, what do
I do? I think some instruction to implementers is needed but I'm
not sure what it is.

   Basically, I think the whole document should be searched for "may" (case
insensitively) and each instance looked at closely.

   III. Security Considerations

   The security considerations are thorough and well done although the
first three paragraphs in section 8 seem to boil down to the fact that
the DTN is assumed to be completely under the control of an attacker. I
think that's all that needs to be said there.

   regards,

   Dan.









--------------0AEA476AFDA53DBF7C4335C2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  

    
  
  
    
  Hello,

  I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's 
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the 
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the 
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat 
these comments just like any other last call comments.

  The summary of my review is: Almost-Ready.

  This draft describes a protocol called BPSec which "provides
end-to-end integrity and confidentiality services for BP bundles."
But it doesn't really define a security protocol because it leaves
key establishment and the actual ciphers used to afford end-to-end
protection to bundles to different documents. So it's sort of like
EAP in that respect.

 1. Issues with encryption and integrity protection

  There are 2 different blocks defined, a Block Integrity Block (BIB)
that provides integrity protection and a Block Confidentiality Block
(BCB) that encrypts the block. Apparently, the BCB does not also
provide integrity protection of its ciphertext since the draft says
that, while multiple security operations on the same block are invalid,
doing integrity protection and confidentiality on the same block is
valid. This opens up some insecure options that don't need to be allowed, 
like integrity protect then encrypt, or integrity protect and encrypt.
I think it would be a good idea to mandate that whatever ciphersuite
is used for a BCB (again, the draft does not specify ciphersuites) that
it provides authenticated encryption. Then update the uniqueness
requirement in section 3.2. 

  The example in figure 3 does authenticate-then-encrypt which is
not robust. This needs to change.

  The processing order in 5.1 states "BCBs MUST be evaluated first
and BIBs second." This is wrong, it's mandating a fragile construct
whose security depends on the cipher mode and that is dangerous.
Strongly suggest changing this and using and AEAD cipher.

  Also in 5.1: "If an encrypted payload block cannot be decrypted...."
How would you know? As long as it's the right size it will decrypt 
into something. That something might be garbage but decryption was
successful. This is another reason to mandate AEAD. If it fails, it
fails hard, no two step required. 

  My suggestion to use an AEAD cipher seems to conflict somewhat with the
fragmentation/reassembly text which says that application of a
confidentiality cipher suite MUST NOT alter the size of the payload.
That is going to have to be reconciled somehow. This document should
not allow anything other than encrypt-then-authenticate (and it should
do so by mandating AEAD ciphers) and if that requires some rewrite of
the fragmentation/reassembly text then so be it. 

 II. Issues with RFC 2119 words

  I hate to be a stickler on stuff like this but...

  Section 2.2 which begins, "A bundle MAY have multiple security blocks
and these blocks MAY have different security sources." Now, to me, MAY
means it's optional and that if I don't implement it I can still stay
compliant. But that's not how I'm reading this. What I'm reading
is an admonition to not assume uniformity in bundles, which seems
like an important statement that is the opposite of the literal MAY
text. It's really you MUST NOT assume that a bundle has uniform
security. 

  Section 3.3: "A set of security operations may be represented by a
single security block if and only if the following conditions are true...."
That sounds kind of normative.  Do the authors mean "A set of security
operations SHALL be represented by a single security block...."?

  Regarding the optional "Security Source" in the Abstract Security Block
in section 3.6: "If the security source field is not present then the 
ource MAY be inferred from other information...." And that means I can
choose to not implement this optional inference. In which case, what do
I do? I think some instruction to implementers is needed but I'm
not sure what it is.

  Basically, I think the whole document should be searched for "may" (case
insensitively) and each instance looked at closely.

  III. Security Considerations

  The security considerations are thorough and well done although the
first three paragraphs in section 8 seem to boil down to the fact that
the DTN is assumed to be completely under the control of an attacker. I
think that's all that needs to be said there. 

  regards,

  Dan.






    

      

      

      

    
  


--------------0AEA476AFDA53DBF7C4335C2--


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From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 13:23:16 +1000
Cc: Patrick McManus , draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, The IESG 
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References:   
To: Carl Wallace 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets
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The problem is that we'd have to put such a caveat on pretty much every =
MUST in the document.=20

Cheers,


> On 30 May 2018, at 5:37 am, Carl Wallace  =
wrote:
>=20
> Your reasoning makes sense but it requires an awfully careful reading =
to counter the clarity of the prohibition on new pseudo-headers. Maybe =
an errata could be filed against 7540 to clarify the "alter any aspect =
of this protocol" where the prohibition  is asserted for the benefit of =
future readers. For example, something like "Endpoints MUST NOT generate =
pseudo-header fields other than those defined in this document, except =
where support for additional pseudo-headers is negotiated as permitted =
in section 5.5" would help.
>=20
> From: Patrick McManus 
> Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 1:49 PM
> To: Carl Wallace 
> Cc: , =
, The IESG 
> Subject: Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets
>=20
>> Hey Carl, thanks for doing this
>>=20
>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Carl Wallace =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header =
field in
>>> section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to =
section
>>> 5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the
>>> prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a =
mod to
>>> 7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in
>>> draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?
>>>=20
>>=20
>> imo no update to 7540 is needed. the wg also considered the question =
and had the same conclusion. I will highlight the reasoning:
>>=20
>> 5.5.  Extending HTTP/2
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
>>    described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to =
provide
>>    additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  =
Extensions
>>    are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.
>>=20
>>=20
>> note "alter any aspect of this protocol"
>> [..]
>>=20
>>    Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
>>    components MUST be negotiated before being used.=20
>>=20
>> This is one of the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets =
extension needs to be negotiated (and it is).
>> [..] For example, an
>>    extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame cannot be =
used
>>    until the peer has given a positive signal that this is =
acceptable.
>>=20
>>  In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the
>>    revised layout comes into effect.  Note that treating any frames
>>    other than DATA frames as flow controlled is such a change in
>>    semantics and can only be done through negotiation.
>>=20
>> These two examples are also powerful citations that negotiated =
extensions can change the interpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as =
existing frame layouts and even flow control rules (both of which have =
MUSTs associated with them).
>>=20
>> The whole section is a little bit confusing because it also =
enumerates a few extension points that the websockets draft is not =
using. But those are specifically enumerated because they can be used =
without negotiated opt-in and implementations not aware of the =
extensions need to take care to keep them clean and available for =
extending (so there are requirements even if you're not implementing the =
extension). As the example paragraph shows, extensions are not solely =
limited to that model.
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> -Patrick
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Hello Peter,

> Hi Vincent, thanks for your review. I'm the document shepherd and the
> author is on holiday right now, so I'll reply on a few points.

[..]

>> This document specifies the use of National Bibliography Numbers =
(NBN)s
>> as a particular URN namespace.
>> The authors explain that "no specific security threats have been
>> identified for NBN-based URNs".
>> The authors also explain that, since this document specifies high =
level
>> concepts, several security aspects are out of scope.
>> I tend to agree with the authors, although I don't know the domain.
>=20
> Would you like to see a bit more explanatory text on these matters?

More explanatory text is always welcome, but as I said, I wouldn=E2=80=99t=

object if the doc stays as is.

> Thanks for the review!

You=E2=80=99re welcome.

  Vincent


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Hello=
 Peter,

Hi Vincent, thanks for your =
review. I'm the document shepherd and the
author is on holiday right now, so I'll reply on a few =
points.

[..]

This =
document specifies the use of National Bibliography Numbers (NBN)s
as a particular URN namespace.
The authors =
explain that "no specific security threats have been
identified for NBN-based URNs".
The authors =
also explain that, since this document specifies high level
concepts, several security aspects are out of scope.
I tend to agree with the authors, although I don't know the =
domain.

Would you like to see a bit more explanatory text on these =
matters?

More =
explanatory text is always welcome, but as I said, I =
wouldn=E2=80=99t
object if the doc stays as is.

Thanks for =
the review!

You=E2=80=99re welcome.

  Vincent

=

--Apple-Mail=_5ABA35CC-B81B-4E84-B6AD-563D826BCA13--


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From: Carl Wallace 
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Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 06:18:29 -0400
Cc: Patrick McManus , draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, The IESG 
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References:    
To: Mark Nottingham 
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Subject: Re: [secdir] secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets
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Good enough.=20

> On May 30, 2018, at 11:23 PM, Mark Nottingham  wrote:
>=20
> The problem is that we'd have to put such a caveat on pretty much every MU=
ST in the document.=20
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 30 May 2018, at 5:37 am, Carl Wallace  wrot=
e:
>>=20
>> Your reasoning makes sense but it requires an awfully careful reading to c=
ounter the clarity of the prohibition on new pseudo-headers. Maybe an errata=
 could be filed against 7540 to clarify the "alter any aspect of this protoc=
ol" where the prohibition  is asserted for the benefit of future readers. Fo=
r example, something like "Endpoints MUST NOT generate pseudo-header fields o=
ther than those defined in this document, except where support for additiona=
l pseudo-headers is negotiated as permitted in section 5.5" would help.
>>=20
>> From: Patrick McManus 
>> Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 1:49 PM
>> To: Carl Wallace 
>> Cc: , , T=
he IESG 
>> Subject: Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets
>>=20
>>> Hey Carl, thanks for doing this
>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Carl Wallace  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> The draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets defines a new pseudo-header field i=
n
>>>> section 4. Section 3 addresses extending HTTP/2 via a reference to sect=
ion
>>>> 5.5 of RFC7540, but there was nothing in that section to relax the
>>>> prohibition on using pseudo-header fields not defined by 7540. Is a mod=
 to
>>>> 7540 necessary to enable support for the mechanism in
>>>> draft-ietf-httpbis-h2-websockets?
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> imo no update to 7540 is needed. the wg also considered the question and=
 had the same conclusion. I will highlight the reasoning:
>>>=20
>>> 5.5.  Extending HTTP/2
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>   HTTP/2 permits extension of the protocol.  Within the limitations
>>>   described in this section, protocol extensions can be used to provide
>>>   additional services or alter any aspect of the protocol.  Extensions
>>>   are effective only within the scope of a single HTTP/2 connection.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> note "alter any aspect of this protocol"
>>> [..]
>>>=20
>>>   Extensions that could change the semantics of existing protocol
>>>   components MUST be negotiated before being used.=20
>>>=20
>>> This is one of the limitations mentioned above.. so the websockets exten=
sion needs to be negotiated (and it is).
>>> [..] For example, an
>>>   extension that changes the layout of the HEADERS frame cannot be used
>>>   until the peer has given a positive signal that this is acceptable.
>>>=20
>>> In this case, it could also be necessary to coordinate when the
>>>   revised layout comes into effect.  Note that treating any frames
>>>   other than DATA frames as flow controlled is such a change in
>>>   semantics and can only be done through negotiation.
>>>=20
>>> These two examples are also powerful citations that negotiated extension=
s can change the interpretation of basic pieces of 7540 such as existing fra=
me layouts and even flow control rules (both of which have MUSTs associated w=
ith them).
>>>=20
>>> The whole section is a little bit confusing because it also enumerates a=
 few extension points that the websockets draft is not using. But those are s=
pecifically enumerated because they can be used without negotiated opt-in an=
d implementations not aware of the extensions need to take care to keep them=
 clean and available for extending (so there are requirements even if you're=
 not implementing the extension). As the example paragraph shows, extensions=
 are not solely limited to that model.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>> -Patrick
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20


From nobody Thu May 31 05:48:27 2018
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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2018-06-07

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Melinda Shore          2018-05-30 draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-15

For telechat 2018-06-21

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Sandra Murphy          2018-04-24 draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-simulcast-12

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
John Bradley           2018-04-18 draft-ietf-acme-acme-12
Daniel Gillmor         2018-03-19 draft-gutmann-scep-10
Russ Mundy             2017-09-14 draft-spinosa-urn-lex-12
Tina Tsou              2018-05-21 draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-04
Samuel Weiler          2018-05-21 draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16
Brian Weis             2018-06-04 draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-06
Klaas Wierenga         2018-06-26 draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-11
Christopher Wood       2018-06-12 draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-09
Paul Wouters           2018-06-12 draft-ietf-dcrup-dkim-crypto-10

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Daniel Franke          2018-01-31 draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-00
Ólafur Guðmundsson     2018-01-09 draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-09
Liang Xia              2018-06-30 draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-02

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Taylor Yu
  Dacheng Zhang
  Derek Atkins
  John Bradley
  Shaun Cooley
  Roman Danyliw
  Alan DeKok
  Donald Eastlake
  Shawn Emery
  Stephen Farrell


From nobody Thu May 31 20:19:52 2018
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From: Melinda Shore 
To: secdir@ietf.org, IESG , draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo.all@ietf.org
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-15
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I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
these comments just like any other last call comments.

The summary of the review is Ready with issues

This document defines a technology-agnostic YANG data model for
representation of traffic engineering topologies, and is intended to
serve as a base model for other technology-specific traffic engineering
topology models.

The document is clearly written and appears comprehensive with respect
to its subject matter.  I suspect that sections 1-4 would be a useful
reference for people wanting to learn about TE topologies in general,
and I enjoyed reading it.

The security considerations section is scanty and, unfortunately,
insufficient.  The statement "The data-model by itself does not create
any security implications" seems questionable at best, since it contains
information about network topology and the treatment of traffic,
which may be of value to an attacker.  The lack of discussion of
the threat environment is particularly problematic given that the
model is intended to be used for manipulating TE topologies.  The
authors may want to look to draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo as
a model (no pun intended) of a good security considerations
section for a topology model.  I don't see how this document can
be published with the security considerations section in its current
condition.

This is really a trivial nit, but a nit nevertheless - the second
paragraph of the terminology section probably belongs in the
introduction instead, as it lays out expectations for the reader
and contains a pointer to introductory material for readers
unfamiliar with the IETF's traffic engineering work.

Melinda