From tools-development-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 08 06:53:12 2007
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From: Ray Pelletier <rpelletier@isoc.org>
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Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] Today's Call Reminder
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All;

Just a reminder of todays call at 10:00 AM ET.

Agenda

Phase 1 Re-Write
Phase 2 Plans
Open Source License Recommendation to IETF Trust
Tools Priorities
Proposal Priorities

Call in details below

Next call: July 13th

Ray


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From tools-development-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 08 09:57:28 2007
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Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] [Fwd: Updated "Proposal and Tools-Development
	Management Tool"]
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FYI
Ray

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Updated "Proposal and Tools-Development Management Tool"
Date: 	Fri, 8 Jun 2007 09:42:24 -0400
From: 	Fuller, Barbara <Barbara.Fuller@neustar.biz>
To: 	Ray Pelletier <rpelletier@isoc.org>
CC: 	Lindberg, Jon <Jon.Lindberg@neustar.biz>, Lee, Michael 
<Michael.Lee@neustar.biz>, Vezza, Amy <Amy.Vezza@neustar.biz>, Ginsburg, 
Christine <Christine.Ginsburg@neustar.biz>



Hi Ray:

Attached is an updated version of the "Proposal and Tools-Development
Management Tool."  In this version, as in previous versions, the
"Proposed Tools" are listed on the first sheet in the workbook, and each
of the "Tools in Progress" is listed on a separate sheet.

As we discussed at our meeting with Russ on Tuesday, the Secretariat's
first priority is the porting of access-controlled tools to Python.
Therefore, I have revised the "Proposed Tools" work sheet accordingly.

My understanding is that the Secretariat is expected to be working on
five tools-related projects at this time:

1. Porting of publicly available tools from Perl to Python
2. Porting of controlled access tools from Perl to Python
3. Addressing comments from testers on the Internet Draft Submission
Tool
4. Preparing a proposal for the front-end extensions to the I-D Tracker
5. Updating the proposal for the Enhancements to the Liaison Statement
Management Tool (to reflect development in Python)
5. Updating the proposal for the Working Group Management Tool: Part 1
(to reflect development in Python)

The first and third projects are "Tools in Progress."  Therefore each
project is listed on a separate sheet in the work book.  Please note
that the sheet for "Porting of publicly available tools from Perl to
Python" includes only the portion of the project for which NSS is
currently responsible.

Please let me know if you have any comments or questions about this
report.

Best Regards

Barbara



--------------090808010301030709090703
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FYI<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
      <td>Updated "Proposal and Tools-Development Management Tool"</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Fri, 8 Jun 2007 09:42:24 -0400</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td>Fuller, Barbara <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Barbara.Fuller@neustar.biz">&lt;Barbara.Fuller@neustar.biz&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td>Ray Pelletier <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rpelletier@isoc.org">&lt;rpelletier@isoc.org&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">CC: </th>
      <td>Lindberg, Jon <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jon.Lindberg@neustar.biz">&lt;Jon.Lindberg@neustar.biz&gt;</a>, Lee, Michael
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Michael.Lee@neustar.biz">&lt;Michael.Lee@neustar.biz&gt;</a>, Vezza, Amy
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Amy.Vezza@neustar.biz">&lt;Amy.Vezza@neustar.biz&gt;</a>, Ginsburg, Christine
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Christine.Ginsburg@neustar.biz">&lt;Christine.Ginsburg@neustar.biz&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>Hi Ray:

Attached is an updated version of the "Proposal and Tools-Development
Management Tool."  In this version, as in previous versions, the
"Proposed Tools" are listed on the first sheet in the workbook, and each
of the "Tools in Progress" is listed on a separate sheet.

As we discussed at our meeting with Russ on Tuesday, the Secretariat's
first priority is the porting of access-controlled tools to Python.
Therefore, I have revised the "Proposed Tools" work sheet accordingly.

My understanding is that the Secretariat is expected to be working on
five tools-related projects at this time:

1. Porting of publicly available tools from Perl to Python
2. Porting of controlled access tools from Perl to Python
3. Addressing comments from testers on the Internet Draft Submission
Tool
4. Preparing a proposal for the front-end extensions to the I-D Tracker
5. Updating the proposal for the Enhancements to the Liaison Statement
Management Tool (to reflect development in Python)
5. Updating the proposal for the Working Group Management Tool: Part 1
(to reflect development in Python)

The first and third projects are "Tools in Progress."  Therefore each
project is listed on a separate sheet in the work book.  Please note
that the sheet for "Porting of publicly available tools from Perl to
Python" includes only the portion of the project for which NSS is
currently responsible.

Please let me know if you have any comments or questions about this
report.

Best Regards

Barbara

</pre>
</body>
</html>

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From tools-development-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 08 10:19:02 2007
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Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] Jorges OSL Comments
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My preference is generally to go with as simple a license as possible.
For general Open Source use, the MIT or BSD licenses are very good,
simple choices.  The only reason NOT to go with one of these is if you
want to impose special restrictions.  In particular, when Ray says
"freely distribute", do you mean "distribute without restriction" or
"distribute for free".  If the former, then MIT or BSD would be fine.
If the latter, then you will need to customize one of these licenses or
go with something else.

I have reservations about OSL for a number of reasons:

-- its coverage of "Derivative Works", which is reminiscent of the GPL
(and may make some companies nervous),

-- the "warranty" that license (IETF Trust?) would be required to make
under Section 7,

-- defensive suspension clause in Section 10 (which will potentially
limit widespread use of the software).

Were there specific reasons that you picked OSL?  Maybe I don't
appreciate the benefits that you see here.

Regards,
Jorge


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Responding to Jorge's comments:

> I have reservations about OSL for a number of reasons:
> 
> -- its coverage of "Derivative Works", which is reminiscent of the GPL
> (and may make some companies nervous),

I don't think we care in this case do we? This is not like a small fix to
Linux contaminating a company's whole software product. This is for
small isolated tools with very little commercial value.

> 
> -- the "warranty" that license (IETF Trust?) would be required to make
> under Section 7,

Yes, we would have to be certain that the original authors have given\
consent. No way out of that - but would we want to avoid that anyway?

> 
> -- defensive suspension clause in Section 10 (which will potentially
> limit widespread use of the software).

Yes. That isn't really a problem in this case, since we care about the
s/w being available to the IETF community and to our contractors,
but don't care about the rest of the world.

    Brian

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From tools-development-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 08 14:12:38 2007
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Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] TMC Call 6/15 10 AM ET
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All;

We will have a conference call to discuss the Open Source License to 
recommend to the IETF Trust on Friday June 15th at 10:00 AM ET.  Jorge 
will be available for the call.

Ray

Call in details:
At the specified time, dial your Reservationless-Plus Dial-In Number.
When prompted, enter your Conference Code followed by #.

United States : 866. 616. 1738
Conference Code: 193. 366. 9157

Local Dial-In Number(s)**:
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** International Freephone numbers are subject to change. Before each 
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From tools-development-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 08 14:37:16 2007
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Next Call June 15 at 10 AM ET

TMC Call 6-08-07

NSS
Michael
Barbara
Dinara

IETF
Russ
Ray
Bill
Brian
Henrik
Bob

Agenda

1. Phase
1 Re-Write Django Phase 1

Henrik - getting closer to end; call yesterday; few items left, 10ish, 
60 done; most done by Tues/Wed next week; no real problems in the way.

Bill - original time estimate was way off;

Michael - finish = deploy?

Henrik - will discuss deployment next week; test framework - BuildBot 
being built for testing before deployment; we have a development server 
which checks our recent code and should be able to point people to the 
server and have them test it.

19 - 20 June Deployment Target

Henrik - SourceForge painfully slow to work with; could put a copy up on 
SourceForge

Bill - Henrik has built one on the tools server, if Henrik agrees

Henrik - fine by me. Only disadvantage - wants the source to be 
available; then secondary at SourceForge; no issue of version control

Brian - mirroring




2. Phase 2 Plans

Henrik - sit down with NeuStar to discuss first to see what is already 
provided by Django admin for the backend; need to see if that would work

Michael - can think of 2; IPR and Session Request tools; what 
features/functions provided by Django?

Henrik - not sure, it's why we need to look at it.

Will schedule for Chicago, probably Friday; 2 - 3 hours. 1 - 3

Question is will admin interface work for backend use?

Bill - Anything involved with Work Flow probably cannot be replaced by 
Django admin, but rolodex probably could be used.


3. Open Source License Recommendation to IETF Trust

see http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ alphabetical) for a full listing.

a. BSD - does not require access to modifications

b. MIT

Brian - not convinced by Jorge's arguments, but not a good idea to 
ignore the lawyer

c. OSL 3.0

Comments from the list -

Bob Hinden made a good point with respect to
the proposed CPL 1.0; which led to the proposal of OSL 3.0.
Henrik

I read the patent paragraph in OSL 3.0 a few times before concluding
that it was not an issue for IASA. It's actually very mild - it says
that if BigBadCompany receives the code *and* decides to assert a
patent against it, it then loses the right to use the code. I really
don't see where that would be a problem for IETF Secretariat tools.
Can you invent a scenario where it would hurt us?

    Brian

I find the exclusions from patent grants in section 4 of OSL very
clear, and not at all infectuous or viral in the GPL sense, and
don't see any reason for the Trust, individuals, or companies for
whom contributing individuals work to have any worries about
unintended grants of Patent IPR.

    Henrik

My preference is generally to go with as simple a license as possible.
For general Open Source use, the MIT or BSD licenses are very good,
simple choices.  The only reason NOT to go with one of these is if you
want to impose special restrictions.  In particular, when Ray says
"freely distribute", do you mean "distribute without restriction" or
"distribute for free".  If the former, then MIT or BSD would be fine.
If the latter, then you will need to customize one of these licenses or
go with something else.

I have reservations about OSL for a number of reasons:

-- its coverage of "Derivative Works", which is reminiscent of the GPL
(and may make some companies nervous),

-- the "warranty" that license (IETF Trust?) would be required to make
under Section 7,

-- defensive suspension clause in Section 10 (which will potentially
limit widespread use of the software).

Were there specific reasons that you picked OSL?  Maybe I don't
appreciate the benefits that you see here.

Regards,
Jorge

Henrik - have done GPL, but would re-license as OSL

4. Tools Priorities

a. Development

1. Django Project Phase 1
2. The I-D Submission Tool
3. Enhancements to the Liaison Statement Management Tool

b. Proposal Priorities

1. Django Phase 2
2. Front-end extensions to the I-D Tracker
3. WG Management Tool part 1

c. Spec Development Priorities

1. Back End extension to the I-D Tracker
2. XML Meta Information

Planning calendar to be prepared by NSS to show when development and 
proposals start and end through the end of the year.

Open Mic

Michael
  Phase 1 - concerned about making any big change before Chicago

Henrik - 19/20 June gives some breather

==============

Call in details:
At the specified time, dial your Reservationless-Plus Dial-In Number.
When prompted, enter your Conference Code followed by #.

United States : 866. 616. 1738
Conference Code: 193. 366. 9157

Local Dial-In Number(s)**:
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Croatia (Hrvatska) : 0800223071
Czech Republic : 800142907
Denmark : 80884387
France : 0805110471
France, lile : 0359580293
Germany : 08001014907
Hong Kong : 800901297
Hungary : 0680015519
Iceland : 8008658
India : 0008001006354
Ireland : 1800300182
Israel : 1809213971
Italy : 800906494
Japan : 00531121895
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Mexico : 0018664297882
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Switzerland : 0800564504
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United Arab Emirates : 8000440134
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** International Freephone numbers are subject to change. Before each 
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------050800040506040005030802
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All;

This is a reminder of today's call at 10:00 AM ET.

Agenda

1. Open Source License - OSL 3.0 or ?

Last weeks call notes attached.

Ray

Call in details:
At the specified time, dial your Reservationless-Plus Dial-In Number.
When prompted, enter your Conference Code followed by #.

United States : 866. 616. 1738
Conference Code: 193. 366. 9157

Local Dial-In Number(s)**:
Austria, Vienna Dial-In #: 019286515
Belgium, Brussels Dial-In #: 024017041
Denmark, Copenhagen Dial-In #: 032714951
Finland, Helsinki Dial-In #: 0923113284
France, Lyon Dial-In #: 0426690490
France, Marseille Dial-In #: 0488130167
France, Paris Dial-In #: 0170700767
Germany, Frankfurt Dial-In #: 069222220478
Ireland, Dublin Dial-In #: 012475152
Italy, Milan Dial-In #: 0236005649
Netherlands, Amsterdam Dial-In #: 0207133440
Norway, Oslo Dial-In #: 21510846
Portugal, Lisbon Dial-In #: 0211201838
Spain, Madrid Dial-In #: 914141419
Sweden, Stockholm Dial-In #: 0856618459
Switzerland, Bellinzona Dial-In #: 0912800000
United Kingdom, LocalCall Dial-In #: 08452455269
International Freephone Dial-in Number(s):
Australia : 1800076718
Austria : 0800111957
Bahrain : 80004152
Belgium : 080048305
Brazil : 08008912092
China, North : 108007121533
China, South : 108001201533
Croatia (Hrvatska) : 0800223071
Czech Republic : 800142907
Denmark : 80884387
France : 0805110471
France, lile : 0359580293
Germany : 08001014907
Hong Kong : 800901297
Hungary : 0680015519
Iceland : 8008658
India : 0008001006354
Ireland : 1800300182
Israel : 1809213971
Italy : 800906494
Japan : 00531121895
Korea (South) : 00308131549
Malaysia : 1800805077
Mexico : 0018664297882
Netherlands : 08009494598
New Zealand : 0800446473
Poland : 008001212289
Russian Federation : 81080021232044
Singapore : 8001011668
South Africa : 0800995487
Spain : 900961635
Sweden : 0200887528
Switzerland : 0800564504
Turkey : 0080044632072
United Arab Emirates : 8000440134
United States : 18666161738
Venezuela : 08001627404
** International Freephone numbers are subject to change. Before each 
conference, refer to the numbers above for the most current information. 
Always use your Toll number as a backup.

Customer Service: 0800 833 695 or +44 (0) 1452 553456

--------------050800040506040005030802
Content-Type: text/plain;
 name="TMC Call 6-08-07.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="TMC Call 6-08-07.txt"

TMC Call 6-08-07

NSS
Michael
Barbara
Dinara

IETF
Russ
Ray
Bill
Brian
Henrik
Bob

Agenda

1. Phase 
1 Re-Write Django Phase 1

Henrik - getting closer to end; call yesterday; few items left, 10ish, 60 done; most done by Tues/Wed next week; no real problems in the way.

Bill - original time estimate was way off;

Michael - finish = deploy?

Henrik - will discuss deployment next week; test framework - BuildBot being built for testing before deployment; we have a development server which checks our recent code and should be able to point people to the server and have them test it.

19 - 20 June Deployment Target

Henrik - SourceForge painfully slow to work with; could put a copy up on SourceForge

Bill - Henrik has built one on the tools server, if Henrik agrees

Henrik - fine by me. Only disadvantage - wants the source to be available; then secondary at SourceForge; no issue of version control

Brian - mirroring




2. Phase 2 Plans

Henrik - sit down with NeuStar to discuss first to see what is already provided by Django admin for the backend; need to see if that would work

Michael - can think of 2; IPR and Session Request tools; what features/functions provided by Django?

Henrik - not sure, it's why we need to look at it.

Will schedule for Chicago, probably Friday; 2 - 3 hours. 1 - 3

Question is will admin interface work for backend use?

Bill - Anything involved with Work Flow probably cannot be replaced by Django admin, but rolodex probably could be used.


3. Open Source License Recommendation to IETF Trust

see http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ alphabetical) for a full listing. 

a. BSD - does not require access to modifications

b. MIT

Brian - not convinced by Jorge's arguments, but not a good idea to ignore the lawyer

c. OSL 3.0

Comments from the list - 

Bob Hinden made a good point with respect to
the proposed CPL 1.0; which led to the proposal of OSL 3.0.
Henrik

I read the patent paragraph in OSL 3.0 a few times before concluding
that it was not an issue for IASA. It's actually very mild - it says
that if BigBadCompany receives the code *and* decides to assert a
patent against it, it then loses the right to use the code. I really
don't see where that would be a problem for IETF Secretariat tools.
Can you invent a scenario where it would hurt us?

    Brian 

I find the exclusions from patent grants in section 4 of OSL very
clear, and not at all infectuous or viral in the GPL sense, and
don't see any reason for the Trust, individuals, or companies for
whom contributing individuals work to have any worries about
unintended grants of Patent IPR.

	Henrik

My preference is generally to go with as simple a license as possible.
For general Open Source use, the MIT or BSD licenses are very good,
simple choices.  The only reason NOT to go with one of these is if you
want to impose special restrictions.  In particular, when Ray says
"freely distribute", do you mean "distribute without restriction" or
"distribute for free".  If the former, then MIT or BSD would be fine.
If the latter, then you will need to customize one of these licenses or
go with something else.

I have reservations about OSL for a number of reasons:

-- its coverage of "Derivative Works", which is reminiscent of the GPL
(and may make some companies nervous),

-- the "warranty" that license (IETF Trust?) would be required to make
under Section 7,

-- defensive suspension clause in Section 10 (which will potentially
limit widespread use of the software).

Were there specific reasons that you picked OSL?  Maybe I don't
appreciate the benefits that you see here.

Regards,
Jorge

Henrik - have done GPL, but would re-license as OSL

4. Tools Priorities

a. Development

1. Django Project Phase 1
2. The I-D Submission Tool 
3. Enhancements to the Liaison Statement Management Tool

b. Proposal Priorities 

1. Django Phase 2
2. Front-end extensions to the I-D Tracker
3. WG Management Tool part 1

c. Spec Development Priorities

1. Back End extension to the I-D Tracker
2. XML Meta Information

Planning calendar to be prepared by NSS to show when development and proposals start and end through the end of the year.

Open Mic

Michael
  Phase 1 - concerned about making any big change before Chicago

Henrik - 19/20 June gives some breather
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Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] TMC Call Notes 6-15-07
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TMC Call 6-15-07

NSS
Dinara
Jeff
Barbara

IETF
Russ
Ray
Brian
Henrik
Bob
Cullen
Jorge

Agenda

1. Open Source License Recommendation to IETF Trust

OSL 3.0?

Jorge -
I have reservations about OSL for a number of reasons:

-- its coverage of "Derivative Works", which is reminiscent of the GPL
(and may make some companies nervous),

-- the "warranty" that license (IETF Trust?) would be required to make
under Section 7,

-- defensive suspension clause in Section 10 (which will potentially
limit widespread use of the software).

Jorge - not sure who behind OSL, not sure of scenario behind it.

Question - why away from GPL?

Brian - problem is the experience of people working for corp 
contributing, very easy to contaminate other software

Cullen - not linkable to other things

Jorge - not sure what goals are of this effort

Tools as work for hire for IETF

Is the idea to have tools used by companies?
What other uses for these tools?

Henrik
GPL has objective flaws
 if we hire a company to use GPL code and use with own code in-house, 
because GPL wont permit it

Many companies scared for particular use of GPL license code
Want these tools to be useful in context of moving between different 
bidders on a contract

Jorge
concur with assessment
rules out GPL

Uses you care about, by or for the IETF, but anyone could use for free

Henrik - right

Want mods to flow back to the public

H - yes

Mods w/in certain constraints; private use, OK

For resale, concerned about; mods should be contributed back

Jorge -
Free -
Company X wants to redistrute for a charge

Henrik - not an issue; as long as they contribute the code back to IETF; 
they can make money off it, OK

Brian - similar
Don't want contractors to write code, then walk away and not give back

Jeff
NSS develops a tool; owned by Trust

If open sourced, could use for another commercial venture?

Brian - OK, as long as software given back

Jorge,

IETF paying for NSS to develop and then they commercialize

Cullen - probably OK

Russ - as long as benefactor has commitment to software as long we 
benefit from derivitive works as well

Cullen - patents

Jorge - assumption under works for hire, any inventions owned by Trust, 
patents owned by Trust

Cullen, if not works for hire

Henrik - relevant? 
Not in a position to enforce license being put

Cullen,
Not likely to accept 20 different licenses, not workable

Henrik - nothing close to that

Jeff - are you soliciting code, other than works for hire

Henrik- tools work by volunteers with difference licenses and unspecified
No other activities

Brian - encourage everyone to relicense under what selected

Jeff - don't have to select, but could get others to relicense

Cullen - want to encourage others

Jorge - can see why OSL chosen

I have a sense OSL drafted by licensees, not licensors

Derivitive works,

Para 1.b. granted - with definition

  under US copyright includes combinations, compilations, worrisome

  Cullen - rejected by Open Source group; author - Larry Rosen

1.c distribute under OSL license
  Close to GPL
  License not well known
  a little worrisome; a contaminating effect like GPL
  The GPL author has a different view than Jorge

2. Grant of patent license
  Shouldn't be able to sue users for using license
  Grants derivitive works license
    However, not sure what course derivitive works will take; highly 
valuable perhaps
    make people nervous

Henrik - license - original licensor will also license patents; license 
does not say that licensors of derivitavie works will be licensing 
additional patents not covered by original license

Jorge -
Scenario
  NSS has some patents, develops a searching tool; someone takes the 
tool and turns into a global indexing tool; even tho patent covers the 
tools; NSS couldn't asser its patent on the global indexing tool

Henrik - so, when Work For Hire, and licensor is Trust; does not grant 
anyone else's patents

Henrik - opposed to telling someone else what license they have to use 
to contribute

Cullen - HTTPS, does open SSL apply?

Henrik - if company contributes code with a Patent, then a problem for them

Jorge - Work For Hire and incidental patches where patents not an issue; 
may need to rethink if people approach with fully functioning applications

Jorge
para 7 - Warranty the licensor is to make

here, Trust have to make a warranty that rights owned by licensor or 
properly sublicensed

Should not grant this warranty, especially if not being compensated for it

Jeff - my biggest concern as well

Jorge - trust has goal of protecting its assets; a risk not sure 
Trustees should take
license should be As is

henrik - resonates with me also; worries me; leaves us with 3 options
1. Remove this clause, and use the rest of license; drawback
2. Search for another license w/o this flaw, if reasonably well-known
3. don't have any license

Bob - what disadvantge of BSD

Henrik - no protection of people taking code and getting mods back; want 
to take to list; been here in the past where IETF didn't own and painful 
being reliant on code if people pulling the plug; pickup and go 
somewhere else

Jorge
Did look at other licenses; BSD had benefits, but problems
What if we suggested changes to OSL?  3.1?
Rosen a member of IPR WG
Not have to start from scratch

Brian - Larry eager to play; would see it as an endorsement

Henrik - like the idea

Bob - think we have plan

Next Steps
Henrik will initiate contact with Larry
Cullen - encourage a call
Archive of discussion of OSL?

Cullen - will look for a link

Possibility of a follow-up in Chicago

Jeff - has a website rosenlaw.com 707-485-1242
lrosen@rosenlaw.com

Cullen - how quickly developed in the past & how soon do you need it?
No responses

IPR WG now scheduled for Monday afternoon

Jorge - day works for him


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