From nobody Wed Aug 15 10:05:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C201310A2 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDioSsDRFUHW for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBDDD13106E for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m11-v6so3147338oic.2 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:05:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lYxogejVgvmIuTRXFNAMe84Hm6FpwppAbjk9cW1T2Gc=; b=kyjI5m29X2DTpqSvL+eyAqkKyFlxQG3Dy8d1WTQ1hbAOII8WVB+S9QL0QDAihKE6UW tOLKTitx0xNcOz+44Yd/5i2CpJ1QWCHnwWQuFk7kkx2VEVuv7j9oxjbaGIFPSLZY33zB eow/vcVYQtekU1Ifes5QcrlefAwPyjq14mmHelHesfjNrEAwrREUfT8bchWDQk0zkUXN jQaIKEgshTJVGTtmYfp7JtzSmxXdUg4O0pvcV30ircM3VAHYLpHb7vhqqOI9zrhoQg3F +7Fv2/1wNu9rthGfAlLAXTHnuIM2Car0Lsrwy6qzcxHHauxhwAGB6I4054GHlBrvG2bK qYOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lYxogejVgvmIuTRXFNAMe84Hm6FpwppAbjk9cW1T2Gc=; b=uAzci5aNcsItbAH7ivDR9APjZbx7l3dcsa9lrtW60QkJ/m/fKdmCtBQkYfp//7hQaR zoID9yVXaJBe1ifjMyHnNZKLKHWpNpYTPAZ1ZkptbewIsHXdrq9LdIYiFev/GuCJ1JkJ 7Z+uiXwGcNLa/8pB1o9QeVvS/bSb53D3x2l5Xp1K3Nd9cAuwDcDlF/b7O0LwGNPmI4Uc T76JqaX8DWfvAhFEVrUyFa/Gvfg5Wp9d72bnCQp8ygWoZm6xZcJiVcOVC88z7/Iqxh9b 1Cx/YddZh1qcDGHQm005SjcZZujgRgV4/3Q1V2zYtwDHSROj5gQdHpXt3yhDnuf4a4/x 0zEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFL9ZqBLTior1bc0tkWb34w4LvCfoDfNLdv2pji4sUCDdx3IaMR /Jk4FdUtNbml6eMeJo5vXotE07x/BvtxwmWeRVnf54hY9Gk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPwY4KlZBKuJMRuMTYUcQgEVBr41rxEPCPhgPYovr1aYfW+zRD/JfhJFUoRcY4Jtzfsr55HaAr8YBSdCjrwqmmo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:f383:: with SMTP id r125-v6mr26566587oih.6.1534352720802; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:05:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:05:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000e307a905737c54ba" Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 17:05:25 -0000 --000000000000e307a905737c54ba Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e307a505737c54b8" --000000000000e307a505737c54b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey xml2rfc devs, tl;dr: Internet-drafts don't expire, so they shouldn't have expiration dates. AFAICT, there are no governing policy statements for Internet-drafts except the practical statement that drafts don't expire; they're never deleted from the database. Which means that the expiration dates on I-Ds are a bug. The attached patch updates xml2rfc so that it no longer produces expiration statements. Please let me know how you would like to proceed. --Richard --000000000000e307a505737c54b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey xml2rfc devs,

tl;dr:= Internet-drafts don't expire, so they shouldn't have expiration da= tes.

AFAICT, there are no governing policy stateme= nts for Internet-drafts except the practical statement that drafts don'= t expire; they're never deleted from the database.=C2=A0 Which means th= at the expiration dates on I-Ds are a bug.=C2=A0 The attached patch updates= xml2rfc so that it no longer produces expiration statements.
Please let me know how you would like to proceed.
--Richard

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ZXR1cm4gbGVmdAogICAgICAgICAjCiAgICAgICAgIGRlZiBnZXRfcmlnaHQoZnJvbnQpOgo= --000000000000e307a905737c54ba-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 10:33:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239B413102D for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rAldqC0ic4q8 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97C3013102C for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.114.1] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7FHXOnf046751 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:33:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [192.168.114.1] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Richard Barnes" Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:33:45 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.3r5509) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 17:33:53 -0000 This seems like an obvious end-run on the IETF process. Anyone is free to try to publish drafts that do not have expiration date on them, and then report back with their experiences. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Aug 15 11:02:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A629513104E for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIFCfhn0PK3A for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A50A013104D for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 13-v6so3455173ois.1 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y0Us11N+LUuDHCJFpfOxpf5ADiJbIWEFr/2o15JbT7w=; b=qEeSr5wRfKQEW4CjQpTVuG/rsq045+MWDo19RSD9vBqjS1DSMhGClUQE0Lxh1sbQjy WE6smGOSk5HisNSOVpVHfN9ldBwJf/RRbnoKJzKiSBl4ueYd/UgEH/VAmoROjVjww5Vj o2OSuSNuLqBC8AAzn4FegkpPHSVjp7BgQP7NfVYQvM2MDCL1ZZxjtdJAtPPXs8ByGiVq KxvLwGdYjNhIHeDXV7pL8p+TRbD3YZlspK5JRkA9Q4f2aw4QTbDvFpKVovivkdaVqPj6 ZikqsnQ6uuhaO5tsnK/oz19Ca53fmprgieH9YorOl28YJ8YsviSvOgxKVmjb23MYPGat O6RQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y0Us11N+LUuDHCJFpfOxpf5ADiJbIWEFr/2o15JbT7w=; b=o0Ge0QKL3M1UDJGnly6SDHvKFgzs/GgDGUDbs5xA3DIaaa3UM4R3zNKl1KQimmS2By 6urvHhNVYdUcaIdiBG37pb8vXuLsQXNKhS5BF0kdaFAGwLWllDGhrG+617kkatUISM1F nUlKzIytXurRVI3iYOrM+/dD/bTo+Z1/WWxvIBEEaYUpP9dSKSRKzztE9dCKTZpAtIZk 1SdegIBljLx1DGz4dt6VCCZQSs0RXJdz30v4FBEYPrGKbDTdaAyztrGDBurNQsrjsvOJ OpE9vS7cSOPmUbyHWAOCZuos/QHRCTCeVU4DvmX5wvG+r1QKqnFdQV/iPcOjk8yvpZp9 OHWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlH4bDJakds7z5rtO/Gc+iT9577tX8YLsX2Etel97ez6ttZfRmnF +pcoxmFIgOSgHk3XtUVXCbBM55PZy9VNgyFCTC8eE8E+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPwkcknW9nxP0/iMxFgJPvxrC4c72SmOeN9FKt2MUauaYVhvPUS6xyS5ahuqgMveiTLbZG7JtbxNbTNxNAHjkh0= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d088:: with SMTP id j8-v6mr28406985oiy.276.1534356123674; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:02:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:01:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b6098805737d1f80" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:02:07 -0000 --000000000000b6098805737d1f80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" What do you think the proper process is? On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 1:33 PM Paul Hoffman wrote: > This seems like an obvious end-run on the IETF process. Anyone is free > to try to publish drafts that do not have expiration date on them, and > then report back with their experiences. > > --Paul Hoffman > --000000000000b6098805737d1f80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What do you think the proper process is?

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 1:33 PM Pau= l Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.or= g> wrote:
This seems like an= obvious end-run on the IETF process. Anyone is free
to try to publish drafts that do not have expiration date on them, and
then report back with their experiences.

--Paul Hoffman
--000000000000b6098805737d1f80-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 11:04:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59422130DC2 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:04:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8CX3HcqsL5n0 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D129E1277C8 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v8-v6so3447161oie.5 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dYTniEYjjiZIiu1viKPFIbPZF1rc18ZQO/kQLlxBPYo=; b=vgzNCYIWvrQeIEGG0/dtL7khr4zHAPNuCSZ5YCYC+BVMh3CLYfL06HbMiXRA3gvdHo 4fCfTHLAnWCJ/pvp4kl7dZzjl5QMkBe5vQ3bA33DM8zwYhiWkso3jKJxG+Zh4SgGVYnl VB1VJ04Yb08kVeDyGzVBqXfs5gaXikj4neF8WZUrIOsmP/qeRhvi0Qka6lOT877nX8Qb QldfDB/M53Bnt6iWI4BWPb5oNItbH90J1cjf1LwHbIJJPUjns/iOo89KpUlsBpY76Vma cI7DxSsj1eUIV4zfT6Lfr4K6ICAv3P1mVgvwDfS+avey4jbLwZT7eCGPOV4JJ4CSLgmO QRXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dYTniEYjjiZIiu1viKPFIbPZF1rc18ZQO/kQLlxBPYo=; b=j9WESBAxUgJjIPSqNvK2s1cyxmgnXmeOCUp+hhFXb8U86Btuzj26wDmjYj5YvLV38i rwubEADi7wYC+ap+93u4LgLNUY12hWA/aJsJCM/3EwlZQKqhMdIcWz+ByX4YBgnc5LCQ cgc0JhS//3s8kBuSwwKRSPXBQQ9QG6N2X4TAOrvoqqERwUWu3WieA97CGwDChyry4yDm kMJcRZAXVstTYTiJuOB8uj1ohq4m9683QsPJcvl6VirQCLGpHM0t3+TFAjwIpw+xGMb3 Xs7Zp+FTLM89AvRy9GYegp9djBHnqeRU2yqgWJqIYKaZC4VFlVK1R58YLFBUkvUtVqdO DPEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFD1rajg3miAZ8vOeXCzLTxYbSPSHdjzizuQY9u2fR+hzQijkzf aMYAGf98DUYvwQ1y16x86Muu7pv3mS+OjB5t6PjJJQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPw6yL05QQoZK2zA78Gw6PR16mz7T0KH+Bq5TCNqkqitJnVeWru9sxBwzX9pp9FJ9RnhUQwVuJch/ATJBCp+dDg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ebcc:: with SMTP id j195-v6mr28579924oih.298.1534356281084; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:04:29 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000017e8ae05737d29f8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:04:44 -0000 --00000000000017e8ae05737d29f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any other process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email). As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because the datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date! On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Richard Barnes wrote: > What do you think the proper process is? > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 1:33 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > >> This seems like an obvious end-run on the IETF process. Anyone is free >> to try to publish drafts that do not have expiration date on them, and >> then report back with their experiences. >> >> --Paul Hoffman >> > --00000000000017e8ae05737d29f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I = didn't see any other process managing this sort of thing (as I said in = my initial email).

As for submitting I-Ds without = expiration dates -- I can't, because the datatracker runs xml2rfc on my= XML source to add the expiration date!

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Richard Barnes = <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
What do you think the proper process is?

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 1:33 PM Paul Hoff= man <paul.hof= fman@vpnc.org> wrote:
This s= eems like an obvious end-run on the IETF process. Anyone is free
to try to publish drafts that do not have expiration date on them, and
then report back with their experiences.

--Paul Hoffman
--00000000000017e8ae05737d29f8-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 11:13:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18B0130EA9 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvS-Fj-Uvl11 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BC3E131088 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [169.254.31.197] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7FIDPOU054562 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:13:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [169.254.31.197] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Richard Barnes" Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:13:46 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.3r5509) Message-ID: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:13:57 -0000 On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote: > To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any other > process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email). The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to the ietf@ietf.org mailing list. > As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because > the > datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date! What happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that have no expiration date? --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Aug 15 11:39:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A3F130DF6 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8iDoseFry-7 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF2F3130DEF for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id n21-v6so3638515oig.3 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YPK6U0OrCwbsX6ZHiHszhPDq5Qjq7XPanxL/noxvzNw=; b=hV23HWth8r0GlTTLSWQyTFItE3fTrf3QoWgBJ0XWJZqcSe1wq0tOIwvvuXY1qEMb6y 8CxlD16fZ+udzMuqZNMJyLVW9OT2nX73UV1m82LhZM6Qpd69dgze3xjb9IeJVeK0WoC9 kgz9P4ISvRPKDJpOHkzzuUXzJAuZbgZR+0ltLeb9zqdqA9JUoMLNGHuKZL938t6CMz6U GuotzyUGUTc1IOlg3DUk543A/vZXKHROwbNQbbxTyCt7Ij3l5ORWyZHg1R6yoo5Uazs8 bbyCqe9HTOo8aE1V2pnWgYvd+zYYJl7uYJIhlvzcJMIYE01aUGe6ToycA2vA5U7PuCwW zxTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YPK6U0OrCwbsX6ZHiHszhPDq5Qjq7XPanxL/noxvzNw=; b=KQNNsJmTmiSMx44iBK1tdtrtyDvT8v85N/IUkz+F45FMumefbZcQp0krUCG7PnlBtR Aq9dCsWI+OtZti4LPJhLuSPSGhvvPgLbjoiVgGsUvVMWTsXqKtomTwBZjLD4YFMRp6DK xU7O+sEydKTaqt3Qq0e8yEsL0aRdYgXr/qF7OdutsUd2o921rVe5+/iCfEoFQsuTzJl3 jU9DmqniktNtIslo7aAYICtXao4Nw2OJuZjaPsZjOxBc3+PvtWOQdPe7hq/vldRqt35F lijXcRSXQ8p4tT9pD1DuZKvonDBkegFn34ToT4wTa1AJ2VXai1F0ZXw68DXB1zbMi+Kc 0zTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEtaWRM9+fgFnyWkNjpG9ttm+tdet3rDCZAQj+GtyRlCj0kRfOt 7soSvcJaoiiDyrc9Id4YB6FbzuLohtEoh9qOlJdlxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPx/0jqfFeNiDE1b419vQIlyvLmqs7FruAOktmbg1E6kG+Thrioq4Nw/8Iev1ReWyLRNkWc6Q8Ua2ENyH2WEF8M= X-Received: by 2002:aca:34d6:: with SMTP id b205-v6mr4776796oia.77.1534358389035; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:39:37 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcab7805737da6af" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:39:52 -0000 --000000000000bcab7805737da6af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote: > > > To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any other > > process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email). > > The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF > work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing list. > Do you have a citation for this? Or is this just your assumption / opinion? > As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because > > the > > datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date! > > What happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that > have no expiration date? > It's rejected due to idnits failing. "** Missing expiration date. The document expiration date should appear on the first and last page." However, in the absence of a governing policy document, it's just as plausible that this is an idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug. --Richard --000000000000bcab7805737da6af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:
On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote:

> To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see an= y other
> process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email).
The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to the ietf@ietf.org mailin= g list.

Do you have a citation for this?=C2= =A0 Or is this just your assumption / opinion?
=C2=A0
> As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, becaus= e
> the
> datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date!<= br>
What happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that
have no expiration date?

It's rejec= ted due to idnits failing.=C2=A0 "** Missing expiration date.=C2=A0 Th= e document expiration date should appear on the first and last page."= =C2=A0 However, in the absence of a governing policy document, it's jus= t as plausible that this is an idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug.
<= /div>

--Richard
--000000000000bcab7805737da6af-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 13:00:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43923130ED1 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:00:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5VdbXKraAg3 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC52130DEB for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (192.168.1.157) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1347.2; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 12:56:35 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Richard Barnes' , 'Paul Hoffman' CC: References: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:00:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000901d434d2$96f8eee0$c4eacca0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01D43497.EA9AB320" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQG17QA2GvAa2lTqW6CUCrNQ3oWp7gKuG061AoEz/9EBTm+DwQJPcxlrAUx4dumkrP3KsA== X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.157] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 20:00:28 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D43497.EA9AB320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So this took me almost no time to find =20 https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/1id-guidelines.html#expiry =20 =20 From: xml2rfc-dev On Behalf Of Richard = Barnes Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 11:40 AM To: Paul Hoffman Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from = Internet-drafts =20 On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote: > To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any other > process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email). The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF=20 work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to the=20 ietf@ietf.org mailing list. =20 Do you have a citation for this? Or is this just your assumption / = opinion? =20 =20 > As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because=20 > the > datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date! What happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that=20 have no expiration date? =20 It's rejected due to idnits failing. "** Missing expiration date. The = document expiration date should appear on the first and last page." = However, in the absence of a governing policy document, it's just as = plausible that this is an idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug. =20 --Richard ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D43497.EA9AB320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So this = took me almost no time to find

 

https:/= /www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/1id-guidelines.html#expiry

 

 

From: = xml2rfc-dev <xml2rfc-dev-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Richard Barnes
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 11:40 = AM
To: Paul Hoffman = <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Cc: = xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change = request: Remove expiration dates from = Internet-drafts

 

On Wed, = Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> = wrote:

On 15 Aug = 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote:

> To elaborate: I'm = submitting this here because I didn't see any other
> process = managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email).

The = decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF =
work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to = the
ietf@ietf.org mailing = list.

 

Do you = have a citation for this?  Or is this just your assumption / = opinion?

 

 

> As = for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because =
> the
> datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add = the expiration date!

What happens when you turn in Internet = Drafts as text (not XML) that
have no expiration = date?

 

It's rejected due to idnits failing.  "** = Missing expiration date.  The document expiration date should = appear on the first and last page."  However, in the absence = of a governing policy document, it's just as plausible that this is an = idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug.

 

--Richard

<= /body> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D43497.EA9AB320-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 13:14:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7450E131071 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwaXdskWBEVY for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6229130DE3 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id v8-v6so4108825oie.5 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:14:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qbI4+8rK+tnwKCVGm82DtSor3jJ7IRNDgQNBLJ6Y8ME=; b=0jOVQY73RykmPh0YlSUzZ0qevYKpLfgJy/4taPGHSctRsAG6ckn8fiO9C4x7HzCPAs C0M1I3fDUUCu3ZcANAi3x3FYC+fbvxKuIVbqT1gjFhAndz9t/JyintEMDnqoN1cBsA3V 93ae1arGbQsXN2M1vmqQ9vyYkNgoPJn+hMGf1TP0eStpQUYtRY6SxT1ncXKMyzvPyF1f aVCS17vArELPgHtBNUgd5FwRoB6ET4Iy4YE3Ga8BP3lZudEIGn2PlvSljOBbCeAVuVZP q8bAA6+m+qOrRuQOItPvODMlgHIajSJ4G3qZ3cYlcCS8/iA4UmI5PXsNdKcQqPmO26Q2 JUcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qbI4+8rK+tnwKCVGm82DtSor3jJ7IRNDgQNBLJ6Y8ME=; b=HZf9WCKbglza12hoZbCqMRj8/QTGnd7BovX/WNwMRa40+QDlxYHiT0bjpLyVH46Qs2 eI0VgGJAxGq7SZYhjF+ELpDUPX2dzuVx/xlac3qwsczC9I7ZbgIOdeXabjX5Z6SDnoWp yZsL6ZrY/aOImzfIRW2/A44uqABc5C5NfkvHYQUrqzl/RlHwQKWb1Cmc5SJVaW2oVvKV 4SpDHUL56y1ELDm10hwvIIXk6w8voe9SOKFUTS77PnwY5edRk6MfbCnniZNtxawWmckD jrdzFhFoYF/DNcDgjHsqr1u4x4/CNuV1mzMuzCKbqUwQSbPzUvDQ6BBeBcoDcSVmBGoG 2udQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlH530QkfVbKUM+FpJQhckGhmssS7F3wgVDsUiSvHZfRW/UuAglW hbC3NfN+sK++KRxTzRM7y6CAervdeQs49k6G152AZnnnc3Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPw9iSTPI0W4Iug506yGlQiw6NDdnf5MPJaHzhTmQ02vLGVC2zz/B9I2AFqValVrIrAa0XZNYa+sXlT5rMjpQtw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ebcc:: with SMTP id j195-v6mr29025613oih.298.1534364084986; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 13:14:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> <000901d434d2$96f8eee0$c4eacca0$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <000901d434d2$96f8eee0$c4eacca0$@augustcellars.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 16:14:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jim Schaad Cc: Paul Hoffman , xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003df8b305737efa26" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 20:14:48 -0000 --0000000000003df8b305737efa26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That is a document that states some requirements, but it's clearly not governing policy. The document says explicitly, "This document is for helping authors. If you need the definitive rules, then read the following documents", and proceeds to cite RFCs 2026, 5378, 3979, and 4879 -- none of which have anything to say about drafts expiring. It says "for the IESG", but it is not listed in the same place as IESG statements on, say, copyright or references [1][2]. It also has incorrect information in it, for example the assertion that expired drafts are replaced by tombstones (cf. [3]). [1] https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/copyright.html [2] https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/normative-informative.html [3] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-jennings-perc-double-01.txt On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:00 PM Jim Schaad wrote: > So this took me almost no time to find > > > > https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/1id-guidelines.html#expiry > > > > > > *From:* xml2rfc-dev *On Behalf Of *Richard > Barnes > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2018 11:40 AM > *To:* Paul Hoffman > *Cc:* xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from > Internet-drafts > > > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > > On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote: > > > To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any other > > process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial email). > > The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft for IETF > work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take it to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing list. > > > > Do you have a citation for this? Or is this just your assumption / > opinion? > > > > > > > As for submitting I-Ds without expiration dates -- I can't, because > > the > > datatracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date! > > What happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that > have no expiration date? > > > > It's rejected due to idnits failing. "** Missing expiration date. The > document expiration date should appear on the first and last page." > However, in the absence of a governing policy document, it's just as > plausible that this is an idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug. > > > > --Richard > --0000000000003df8b305737efa26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That is a document that states some requirements, but= it's clearly not governing policy.=C2=A0 The document says explicitly,= "This document is for helping authors. If you need the definitive rul= es, then read the following documents", and proceeds to cite RFCs 2026= , 5378, 3979, and 4879 -- none of which have anything to say about drafts e= xpiring.=C2=A0 It says "for the IESG", but it is not listed in th= e same place as IESG statements on, say, copyright or references [1][2].=C2= =A0 It also has incorrect information in it, for example the assertion that= expired drafts are replaced by tombstones (cf. [3]).

[2] ht= tps://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/normative-informative.html

So this took me alm= ost no time to find

=C2=A0

https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/1= id-guidelines.html#expiry

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: xml2rfc-dev <xml2rfc-dev-bounces@= ietf.org> On Behalf Of Richard Barnes
Sent: Wednesd= ay, August 15, 2018 11:40 AM
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>Cc: xml2= rfc-dev@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: R= emove expiration dates from Internet-drafts

=C2=A0

On= Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:13 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:<= u>

On 15 Aug 2018, at 11:04, Richard Barnes wrote:

> = To elaborate: I'm submitting this here because I didn't see any oth= er
> process managing this sort of thing (as I said in my initial ema= il).

The decision for what constitutes an acceptable Internet Draft = for IETF
work is made by the IESG. You could start there, or just take = it to the
ietf@ietf.= org mailing list.

=C2=A0

Do you have a cit= ation for this?=C2=A0 Or is this just your assumption / opinion?<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> As for submitting I-Ds= without expiration dates -- I can't, because
> the
> data= tracker runs xml2rfc on my XML source to add the expiration date!

Wh= at happens when you turn in Internet Drafts as text (not XML) that
have= no expiration date?

=C2=A0

It's reje= cted due to idnits failing.=C2=A0 "** Missing expiration date.=C2=A0 T= he document expiration date should appear on the first and last page."= =C2=A0 However, in the absence of a governing policy document, it's jus= t as plausible that this is an idnits bug parallel to the xml2rfc bug.

=C2=A0

--Richard

=
--0000000000003df8b305737efa26-- From nobody Wed Aug 15 14:42:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc-dev@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609BB130E0A for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqjcFmb53WN8 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8892130DF6 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [169.254.43.95] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7FLfcui067936 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:41:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [169.254.43.95] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Richard Barnes" Cc: "Jim Schaad" , xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:42:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.3r5509) Message-ID: <4B3E36CF-DC96-4B10-BD47-0454358E68E5@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <5A7EB402-D166-4CBC-8DF5-B6ACADE23666@vpnc.org> <000901d434d2$96f8eee0$c4eacca0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] Change request: Remove expiration dates from Internet-drafts X-BeenThere: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion about particulars of xml2rfc V3 design, development and code." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 21:42:39 -0000 On 15 Aug 2018, at 13:14, Richard Barnes wrote: > That is a document that states some requirements, but it's clearly not > governing policy. The document says explicitly, "This document is for > helping authors. If you need the definitive rules, then read the > following > documents", and proceeds to cite RFCs 2026, 5378, 3979, and 4879 -- > none of > which have anything to say about drafts expiring. It says "for the > IESG", > but it is not listed in the same place as IESG statements on, say, > copyright or references [1][2]. It also has incorrect information in > it, > for example the assertion that expired drafts are replaced by > tombstones > (cf. [3]). > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/copyright.html > [2] https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/normative-informative.html > [3] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-jennings-perc-double-01.txt Given all that, it still seems like going to the IESG would cause better outcomes than by changing a tool and seeing what breaks. --Paul Hoffman