From petithug@acm.org Mon Jan 2 09:46:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670BC21F8481 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:46:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3gf5X3pBEx6f for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B74F21F8482 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:5c0:1515:1100:213:d4ff:fe04:3e08] (unknown [IPv6:2001:5c0:1515:1100:213:d4ff:fe04:3e08]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "petithug", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6867820142 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F01ED61.6030803@acm.org> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:46:09 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111114 Iceowl/1.0b2 Icedove/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "avtext@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [avtext] Status of draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I did not had the time to work on this draft for the last 6 months, so let's restart this by a summary of the goals, what was done so far, and what need to be done to finish this. This all started with the realization that, even if RFC 3550 clearly says that multiple clock rates should not be used in the same SSRC, there is deployed implementations that do exactly that, which creates 3 problems: First, RFC 3550 does not explain how to calculate the RTP timestamp in this case. Second, it is not obvious to find what was the clock rate used with a specific RTCP SR packet. And third this make the calculation of the interarrival jitter difficult to do correctly. So there is 4 goals for this drafts: 1. Catalog the various formulas that legacy implementations use to generate the RTP timestamp when using the same SSRC for different clock rates. 2. Define new normative rules for RTP Sender that have to deal with multiple clock rates, so the RTP timestamp and RTCP SR can be correctly processed by legacy implementations. 3. Defines new normative rules for RTP Receiver so they can correctly interpret RTP timestamp and RTCP SR from both legacy and new implementations, and also so they can generate RTCP packets containing correct interarrival jitter in all cases. 4. Do an analysis of the correctness of each combination of legacy RTP Senders and RTP Receivers with the RTP Sender and RTP Receiver defined by this specification. For goal #1, we did not, in my opinion, fully catalog the behavior of the legacy implementations and the survey done by Robert Sparks at Sipit did not return a lot of data. I will do an analysis of all the FOSS RTP stack I can find but this still do not help for proprietary implementations. I understand that people could be reluctant to talk about there implementations, but please contact me directly in any case. We can arrange a NDA and anonymize the result if needed. For goal #2 and #3, Magnus Westerlund helped designed a new formulas. There is still some pending issues raised by Magnus in his last email[1], but there is no doubt that we can reach some consensus here. Work on goal #4 cannot be started until we finish the cataloging and reach consensus on #2 and #3. The difficulty here is to prove that everything will be working for any combination of RTP Sender/Receiver, which would require writing a lot of code. Instead I prepared a Coloured Petri Net (CPN) model with cpntools[2] that will permit to simulate the various cases in a way that will be easily verifiable by everybody (I will publish the cpntool files under a AGPL3 license). So we have the following action items: - - Please contact me directly if you have an RTP implementation that deals with multiple clock rates (even is it use different SSRC). - - I will work on available FOSS RTP implementations. - - I will answer Magnus email as soon as possible. - - I will publish a new version of the draft before its expiration on January 12th. Thanks. [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/avtext/current/msg00162.html [2] http://cpntools.org/ - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Professional email: petithug@acm.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJPAe1fAAoJECnERZXWan7EGyEP+wT2iUykATAwkzYcxOafvaqS mQ1di1/walOimKfiMplOfuaz+cVlGBS2tpVe2citEsondvXXypgjQixlWn8tsFjU Q0MD2u5OHLwbBiSGoCXRsT5mAIQI4Ux0PkMpSVKnZ+SHCgMbifheoNVTiiKshxtC UANPaFVpFKRYyzksSwuw3MMZERJrA2E6quZaxmAxGkQp55ORtmr88h0yO8RST5pb y+yGT7ZtsBXmU3z/UTzP2yRp8Ai3xM6k6uTZ5N8DKn3C03Kt2MmuB118OYELRKdL IRy9SbKyoDpTlKrv+hlzqkjhEQNY3OfSUxwS8PGSXay3F28pId3gctT+ceB5KskS LOTNbbDZnBK1iHgoTp2Bcccy5s9CelDckcLkgMCMKXiaGqClWeeJcAbHbyCSIZI8 pt612Jk+Q8eCVtt0haDYgbJsV+E3LYX/TVyVB4tp0RNiGwEw94M9xHMvgP5Kr0lR xK2OIaBJI9dSqDbYnxBwvirh/Qd5x+FxK5axYN9jn/glBjMOYeIDwfAMGCKfgxUO tEKE2kNYxZXiJ1wEXzzLIcqdY/FMeVCQ880WxXh29R9RK12s7QCRX4//QZ+5yFoU z9i2C7yNEBXZuehIam85JafqRXlvZYVfEr8kam7A6b0uJNTyd180l1HmR709bA19 7Leea9rU33rDFR+OrTXT =YYSN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Tue Jan 3 08:39:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A52821F8506; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.581 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.581 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zaotS0sEC3TO; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE1121F84FB; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p1 Message-ID: <20120103163934.5720.78107.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:39:34 -0800 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:39:35 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Work= ing Group of the IETF. Title : Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session Author(s) : Marc Petit-Huguenin Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2012-01-03 This document clarifies the RTP specification when different clock rates are used in an RTP session. It also provides guidance on how to interoperate with legacy RTP implementations that use multiple clock rates. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-= 02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-0= 2.txt From petithug@acm.org Tue Jan 3 08:45:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E30E21F8504 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ey7DXZmMumGJ for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5302221F84FB for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:5c0:1515:1100:213:d4ff:fe04:3e08] (unknown [IPv6:2001:5c0:1515:1100:213:d4ff:fe04:3e08]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "petithug", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C5AC2045C for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F03309A.4070806@acm.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:45:14 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111114 Iceowl/1.0b2 Icedove/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org References: <20120103163934.5720.78107.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120103163934.5720.78107.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:45:23 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I looked at 4 FOSS implementations of RTP and found that the (timestamp = capture_time * clock_rate) formula was used by 3 of them, with the 4th changing SSRC when the clock_rate changes. So I re-added the legacy non-monotonic formula in the draft, and listed all the libraries analyzed in a new appendix. Next step will be to find consensus on section 4. Changelog: o Readded the non-monotonic methods that was removed in a previous version. o Added analysis of FOSS RTP stacks. o Changed author affiliation. o Added AVTEXT area. On 01/03/2012 08:39 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session > Author(s) : Marc Petit-Huguenin > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt > Pages : 13 > Date : 2012-01-03 > > This document clarifies the RTP specification when different clock > rates are used in an RTP session. It also provides guidance on how > to interoperate with legacy RTP implementations that use multiple > clock rates. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-02.txt - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Professional email: petithug@acm.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJPAzCZAAoJECnERZXWan7EqhMP/jMLNtAH0OCQi9zOF3olxsYx OYNYhKpzU7Vbei3E+BPv4lJX/jOBOxFSh1vJNcLnbH+gqEKgapHXsai83nq5dEKg j0CIeuv+l/r6ZQpHQVtssfCJY/w+2d10h8gOhvFcc0kc2Q7p0Xtj0nzfjf4pYpcD Yrcm3sO4BC2sVq395BUgTvHQIsEBgH35XZtznWKsO6GPDguFiryntFkA7qN2wekl aBR40xMyVj8aiT7UazFXoTmn+5F2gyvju12Twc6U+MHSHOWsj6qsLyhsZTGmMnvb vfSli2MUxvjG1vWUmZytP3uyvp0enDIrZNAf1+wqjuecmgJZe01uuFRjXE3WneEA i5yo8G64OgMHQ5WgnsmaRyiUPra7MayZpkLarsPcVeYrfXDBLw2f58wJBLlUMH8Y 7PlUqMjsq3ps6GnQI5CpAFWv7RJb1kHjDa4npzPIOyfq3nvg0ncYj5W2bQMSRt/2 cAbfEpSVgd5+UwFVcc9nzw3X9sZ2mRCJhbUtCPv23V6Bt8kEj6bN0ZUgJgCSFIaA fjGQXvLgN3hjN/1/OSARUl/sW8itTi/HkmMtTPTNTpWeaGY9npQFwRS+53Lczjgz k36KDh8GxS/81PH3knf+hFFBHUV+BTyezToA1x7EhRCH0cBCKlzaCoXLdGLFP4pr lCxMX0dr4vdTkGsxX7RA =M63N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jan 9 06:20:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A6D21F873E for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 06:20:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aATwV4Vg+xcb for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 06:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB43F21F86CC for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 06:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q09EJwCg018925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:20:10 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.45]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:20:08 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:20:07 +0100 Thread-Topic: Request for note takers from Taipai Thread-Index: AczONy+oFR1SRTJcSHaWDT3z6IXePA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Request for note takers from Taipai X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:20:43 -0000 (as cochair) In the absence of Magnus we need to get together the prceedings from the Ta= ipai meeting. I have no idea who the note takers were in Taipai. Could they identify themselves and send me the notes. Regards Keith From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jan 12 08:10:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3070C21F84B5 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_18=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ABUF6evR48Ny for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BFD21F85F3 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:09:52 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7cfeae000005b81-f0-4f0f05cfd6f7 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FC.46.23425.FC50F0F4; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:09:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:09:51 +0100 Message-ID: <4F0F05CE.2040309@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:09:50 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "avtext@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050109020704030409020307" X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Minutes for IETF 82 Taipei X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:10:40 -0000 --------------050109020704030409020307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WG, Sorry for the minutes being very late. I have been ill and Keith wasn't present. Please review them and comment them. We will attempt submitting them for the proceedings when you have had some time to review them. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------050109020704030409020307 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ietf82-avtext-minutes.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ietf82-avtext-minutes.txt" IEF1ZGlvL1ZpZGVvIFRyYW5zcG9ydCBFeHRlbnNpb25zIChhdnRleHQpDQo9PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09DQogICAgICANCkNoYWlyczogTWFnbnVzIFdlc3Rlcmx1bmQgPG1hZ251cy53ZXN0 ZXJsdW5kQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NCiAgICAgICAgS2VpdGggRHJhZ2UgICAgICAgPGtlaXRo LmRyYWdlQGFsY2F0ZWwtbHVjZW50LmNvbT4NCiAgICAgICAgICANCiAgICAgICAgICANCk1p 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avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C152721F8581 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:22:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRPLMM3xFzX4 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C84C21F8578 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7b3eae00000252a-4a-4f153dc9b079 Received: from esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CF.58.09514.9CD351F4; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:22:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:22:16 +0100 Message-ID: <4F153DC8.8030408@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:22:16 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org References: <4F0F05CE.2040309@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F0F05CE.2040309@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [avtext] Minutes for IETF 82 Taipei X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:22:22 -0000 WG, On Friday if I haven't received any comments on these minutes I will send them to agenda for hopefully inclusion in the proceedings. Cheers Magnus On 2012-01-12 17:09, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > Sorry for the minutes being very late. I have been ill and Keith wasn't > present. Please review them and comment them. We will attempt submitting > them for the proceedings when you have had some time to review them. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 17 06:21:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D9A21F84C2 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:21:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wq95lZQ3vazS for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472EA21F84B5 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:21:21 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7b3eae00000252a-9b-4f1583e122a7 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 11.5E.09514.1E3851F4; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:21:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:21:21 +0100 Message-ID: <4F1583DF.9060703@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:21:19 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Petit-Huguenin References: <4F01ED61.6030803@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <4F01ED61.6030803@acm.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Status of draft-ietf-avtext-multiple-clock-rates X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:21:23 -0000 WG and Marc, I wonder if we can in a realistic timeframe complete all the goals to the extent you indicate. The WG chairs propose adjusted milestones to complete this in the WG by the summer. So far the progress and especially the WG's interest hasn't been all that good. I don't want to blame you, simple do a reality check. From my perspective I think the most important is to ensure that goal 2 and 3 are completed. Anything on one simple supports the fact that there are brokenness and diversity in the implementations deployed. Thus I don't see how we can avoid having cases when legacy and well working solution is less than optimal. >From my perspective it is more important to allow the future to work better, rather than having the transition be perfect. I do want WG input on this, but if the WG's interest and especially energy to work on it is limited I rather focus on the most important parts and downgrade the ambitions for the less important parts. WG, please provide your view on how we should handle this. Note, that if you say do more, then I will expect that you are willing to help out realize that. Cheers Magnus On 2012-01-02 18:46, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > I did not had the time to work on this draft for the last 6 months, > so let's restart this by a summary of the goals, what was done so > far, and what need to be done to finish this. > > This all started with the realization that, even if RFC 3550 > clearly says that multiple clock rates should not be used in the > same SSRC, there is deployed implementations that do exactly that, > which creates 3 problems: First, RFC 3550 does not explain how to > calculate the RTP timestamp in this case. Second, it is not > obvious to find what was the clock rate used with a specific RTCP > SR packet. And third this make the calculation of the interarrival > jitter difficult to do correctly. > > So there is 4 goals for this drafts: > > 1. Catalog the various formulas that legacy implementations use to > generate the RTP timestamp when using the same SSRC for different > clock rates. > > 2. Define new normative rules for RTP Sender that have to deal with > multiple clock rates, so the RTP timestamp and RTCP SR can be > correctly processed by legacy implementations. > > 3. Defines new normative rules for RTP Receiver so they can > correctly interpret RTP timestamp and RTCP SR from both legacy and > new implementations, and also so they can generate RTCP packets > containing correct interarrival jitter in all cases. > > 4. Do an analysis of the correctness of each combination of legacy > RTP Senders and RTP Receivers with the RTP Sender and RTP Receiver > defined by this specification. > > For goal #1, we did not, in my opinion, fully catalog the behavior > of the legacy implementations and the survey done by Robert Sparks > at Sipit did not return a lot of data. I will do an analysis of > all the FOSS RTP stack I can find but this still do not help for > proprietary implementations. I understand that people could be > reluctant to talk about there implementations, but please contact > me directly in any case. We can arrange a NDA and anonymize the > result if needed. > > For goal #2 and #3, Magnus Westerlund helped designed a new > formulas. There is still some pending issues raised by Magnus in > his last email[1], but there is no doubt that we can reach some > consensus here. > > Work on goal #4 cannot be started until we finish the cataloging > and reach consensus on #2 and #3. The difficulty here is to prove > that everything will be working for any combination of RTP > Sender/Receiver, which would require writing a lot of code. > Instead I prepared a Coloured Petri Net (CPN) model with > cpntools[2] that will permit to simulate the various cases in a way > that will be easily verifiable by everybody (I will publish the > cpntool files under a AGPL3 license). > > So we have the following action items: > > - Please contact me directly if you have an RTP implementation that > deals with multiple clock rates (even is it use different SSRC). - > I will work on available FOSS RTP implementations. - I will answer > Magnus email as soon as possible. - I will publish a new version of > the draft before its expiration on January 12th. > > Thanks. > > > [1] > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/avtext/current/msg00162.html > [2] http://cpntools.org/ > > _______________________________________________ avtext mailing > list avtext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Tue Jan 17 08:25:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EDE21F86D8; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4eBD2Vj6bL0; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7437021F858A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:25:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p1 Message-ID: <20120117162524.31291.87983.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:25:24 -0800 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Work= ing Group of the IETF. Title : Considerations for Deploying the Rapid Acquisition of Mu= lticast RTP Sessions (RAMS) Method Author(s) : Ali Begen Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2012-01-17 The Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTP Sessions (RAMS) solution is a method based on RTP and RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) that enables an RTP receiver to rapidly acquire and start consuming the RTP multicast data. Upon a request from the RTP receiver, an auxiliary unicast RTP retransmission session is set up between a retransmission server and the RTP receiver, over which the reference information about the new multicast stream the RTP receiver is about to join is transmitted at an accelerated rate. This often precedes, but may also accompany, the multicast stream itself. When there is only one multicast stream to be acquired, the RAMS solution works in a straightforward manner. However, when there are two or more multicast streams to be acquired from the same or different multicast RTP sessions, care should be taken to configure each RAMS session appropriately. This document provides example scenarios and offers guidelines. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jan 18 05:49:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99DF21F8753 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:49:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IyW1geu3hk4R for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893E021F86DE for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.64]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q0IDna98006016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:49:36 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.64]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:49:36 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:49:34 +0100 Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt Thread-Index: AczVNMcqxWfdnbMaQs+H4hNWVJyJzAAsmoDg Message-ID: References: <20120117162524.31291.87983.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120117162524.31291.87983.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:49:39 -0000 (as WG cochair) Thank you Ali for the revised version. This version should represent the result of the WGLC. The plan is that I, as document shepherd for this one, work through all the= checks in providing the publication request for an informational RFC to IE= SG (which could result in some minor changes) and submit that. If any in the WG believe they still have comments that have not been addres= sed, or have some concern with the document, now would be a very good time = to express them while the document is still in the working group. Additionally, if anyone else has read (reviewed) the document and found it = OK, and has not indicated as such to the chairs, then please do so - this i= s all necessary information in indicating the document has had adequate rev= iew. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 17 January 2012 16:25 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport > Extensions Working Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Considerations for Deploying the Rapid Acquisition > of Multicast RTP Sessions (RAMS) Method > Author(s) : Ali Begen > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.txt > Pages : 11 > Date : 2012-01-17 >=20 > The Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTP Sessions (RAMS) solution is a > method based on RTP and RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) that enables an > RTP receiver to rapidly acquire and start consuming the RTP multicast > data. Upon a request from the RTP receiver, an auxiliary unicast RTP > retransmission session is set up between a retransmission server and > the RTP receiver, over which the reference information about the new > multicast stream the RTP receiver is about to join is transmitted at > an accelerated rate. This often precedes, but may also accompany, > the multicast stream itself. When there is only one multicast stream > to be acquired, the RAMS solution works in a straightforward manner. > However, when there are two or more multicast streams to be acquired > from the same or different multicast RTP sessions, care should be > taken to configure each RAMS session appropriately. This document > provides example scenarios and offers guidelines. >=20 >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios- > 02.txt >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-rams-scenarios-02.tx= t >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jan 18 05:55:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEB721F87AA for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:55:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uipAJqQQKIng for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [62.23.212.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F320121F875D for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q0IDt4TK029615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:55:44 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:55:37 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:55:35 +0100 Thread-Topic: IETF #83 Thread-Index: AczV6NpB6gLGzim3R0ihiR2fCpXj9Q== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: [avtext] IETF #83 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:55:48 -0000 (As WG cochair) The chairs have requested a one hour slot in Paris to progress the work. We have a reasonable idea of what we need in terms of the existing work, bu= t for those of you proposing new work, an idea of what you need in terms of= agenda time and what you plan to do with it would be useful. We'll obviously have another more formal call for the agenda nearer the tim= e, but earlier indications are always useful. Regards Keith From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jan 18 07:18:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B7521F877F for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:18:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.192, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A7cta4wydFq5 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B126221F8754 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:18:19 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7b3eae00000252a-46-4f16e2ba3c7e Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 14.14.09514.AB2E61F4; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:18:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:18:18 +0100 Message-ID: <4F16E2B9.1000905@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:18:17 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "avtext@ietf.org" , Jinwei Xia X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-04 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:18:21 -0000 Hi, In my role as document shepherd I was reviewing the draft to ensure that I could personally stand for the content of the document as WG output. I have however some issues I would like to discuss with the WG if we shouldn't address prior to requesting publication. I should have brought these up during the WG last call if I had been able to review it then. So please consider if these issues should be resolved or not. I hope the author can provide more complete text changes where he agrees it would benefit the text to change. 1. Section 4 and forward: CSRC handling in mixer. Yes, CSRC list with original source are a good debugging tool and a preventer of loops. However, I don't think any splicer targeted to content delivery will ever include the CSRC. It is more likely in use cases like conferencing. Thus I think the document needs to make it clear that CSRC list is an optional feature that can help in debugging and loop prevention but otherwise isn't needed. 2. section 4.1: "When splicing begins, mixer chooses the substitutive RTP stream as input stream at splicing in point, extracts the payload data (i.e., substitutive content), encodes substitutive content and outputs it instead of main content in the current media stream. Moreover, mixer inserts the SSRC of substitutive RTP stream into CSRC list in the current media stream." As an mixer can perform media mixing and especially splicing without a transcoding cycle by simple copy the payload from the incoming packet and the translate only the RTP header information i think the use of the word "encode" in the above sentence and also in the pseudo code are possibly misleading to implementors. I would suggest that one first explain possible alternative for the media handling and translation into outgoing RTP packets. Then give that a term an indicates that in the suitable places in the text. 3. Section 4.2: "Based on above RTCP operating mechanism, the media source will see the reception quality of its stream received by mixer, and the reception quality of spliced stream received by RTP receiver." Sorry, I don't see how the text before this paragraph leads to the paragraphs conclusions. One of the confusion is that it doesn't make it clear which media source is reported or some other assumptions. First, are you assuming that the splicer sends RRs using the splicers own SSRC on the received stream in addition to the SSRC of the receiving client? If it does, I can understand the above, but I think it must be made clear. If not, then there is something different missing. Maybe depending or time? I am assuming the goal is to have the main media source learn the full paths behavior during period of the main content being delivered and the path to the splicer during periods when the substitute content is being delivered. 4. Section 4.3: At the splicing in point, mixer can fill the substitutive content up receiver's buffer with several seconds earlier than the presentation time of substitutive content so that smooth playback can be achieved without pauses or stuttering on RTP receiver. I think there is some language error in this paragraph. Is the goal to say this? At the splicing in point, the mixer can fill up the receiver's buffer with substitute content several seconds earlier than the presentation time of substitutive content so that smooth playback can be achieved without pauses or stuttering on RTP receiver. If that is the goal I think the splicing needs to keep to a similar transmission schedule to the main content. In cases of traffic shaping and advance transmission scheduling this becomes a challenge. 5. Section 4.3: The case that insertion duration is shorter than the reserved gap time may cause a little playback latency of main RTP stream on RTP receiver, but not adversely impact the quality of user experience. The splicer could also have some "filler" content, like an all black sequence that it can insert. 6. Section 4.3: However, in case that insertion duration is longer than the reserved gap duration, there exists an overlap of the substitutive RTP stream and the main RTP stream at splicing out point. In such case, mixer may take a ungracefule action, terminating the splicing and switching back to main RTP stream even if this may cause media stuttering on receiver Please note missing ".". However, I would like to comment on the potentially more graceful operation of delaying the main content by buffering main content for a time equal to the time of the overrun. That of course have some impact on the user also, like when they here the soccer goal before they see it by the hurrays from their neighbors. 7. Section 4.4 >From above analysis, to reduce the risk of congestion and remain the bandwidth consumption stable over time, the substitutive RTP stream is RECOMMENDED to be encoded at an appropriate bitrate to match that of main RTP stream. I think this is the first usage of RFC2119 language in the technical description and guidance on how splicing can be done, i.e. outside of the requirements. I think this document as being informational should not use RFC 2119 language unless it quotes other standards track specifications. So please change this to a lower case. 8. Section 4.5: Compared to above user visibility case, the primary difference in this case is mixer MUST NOT include CSRC list in outgoing packets (i.e., CSRC count field is set to zero and CSRC list fields are absent). another case of RFC 2119 language, I think this is pretty straight forward to change so that it becomes clear that in case one include the CSRC list it becomes obvious that a receiver can detect the splice. 9. Section 6: If any payload internal security mechanisms (e.g., SSH, SSL etc) are used, only media source and RTP receiver can learn the security keying material generated by such internal security mechanism, any middlebox (e.g., mixer) between media source and RTP receiver can't get such keying material. I think the examples of internal security mechanism are all wrong. I don't either SSH or SSL really are used inside RTP payloads. What is a reality is ISMAcrypt. I would recommend using that as an example and include a reference. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Jan 24 04:45:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3381F21F853A for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.485, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_26=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P0mWrnYdwtdC for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E143B21F84E4 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-db-4f1ea7cff1a1 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EF.E1.27041.FC7AE1F4; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:45:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4F1EA7CF.7060106@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:45:03 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "avtext@ietf.org" References: <05F760EF51FA6A4F804F9759C239313A3271BADD0B@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <05F760EF51FA6A4F804F9759C239313A3271BADD0B@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <05F760EF51FA6A4F804F9759C239313A3271BADD0B@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070906020204070805050006" X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Fwd: Media Stream related signaling X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:45:06 -0000 --------------070906020204070805050006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WG, (as individual) We have started a discussion on the dispatch list around the general topic of media stream selection that you got a partial of when we discussed Pause and resume in the Taipei WG session. Please keep the discussion to dispatch to avoid disjoint discussion. Cheers Magnus Westerlund --------------070906020204070805050006 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Media Stream related signaling.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Media Stream related signaling.eml" Received: from ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.126]) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.115.90]) with mapi; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:50:26 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: Magnus Westerlund Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:50:24 +0100 Subject: Media Stream related signaling Thread-Topic: Media Stream related signaling Thread-Index: AczZ5rhYJCBqmo1vRaCfF/ps/EzATQ== Message-ID: <05F760EF51FA6A4F804F9759C239313A3271BADD0B@ESESSCMS0361.eemea.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthMechanism: 03 X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: sv-SE, en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Dispatch, We have requested agenda time for the upcoming meeting to discuss the subje= ct of Media Stream related signaling. From the feedback we got in AVTEXT WG= on the discussion for a certain problem, the one related to pausing and re= suming sender to middlebox media traffic, it is clear that a more high leve= l discussion needs to happen. We have two Internet drafts related to the issues we would like to discuss. Media Stream Selection (MESS) - draft-westerlund-dispatch-stream-selection-00 RTP Media Stream Pause and Resume - draft-westerlund-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-00 The first one (MESS) proposes that for the general selection of media strea= ms, an end-point within a centralized conferencing scenario desires to rece= ive a media plane oriented rather than RTP/RTCP based signaling, which appe= ars to have benefits as discussed in the draft. As mentioned, the pause resume draft is targeted for a different use case w= here a media plane solution has potential for other benefits. This was disc= ussed and the main outcome of that discussion was three quite different opi= nions; a) We already do this signaling using TMMBR (RFC 5104) by setting the bit-r= ate value to 0, which the current specs doesn't allow. b) This should be done in signalling plane, RTP/RTCP shouldn't be bloated. = (But I did interpret this as not necessarily needing to be SIP). c) When it comes to pause/resume, unless it is done using SIP/SDP it will n= ot work through any Session Border Gateway as the session will be torn down= after n seconds. Thus I think it important that we take a discussion around the use cases, e= xisting solutions, limitations in those or the proposal to try to determine= what is the most reasonable way of solving the problems and how to enable; 1) Receiver based selection of media streams from a larger set of streams, = including different quality levels like video resolutions, in a centralized= conferencing application. 2) Optimize the transport so that media streams currently not used can be t= urned off temporarily and then quickly resumed when someone determines a ne= ed for the media stream. For example using mechanism (1) but also for voice= activity based, centrally controlled or other mechanisms to select which m= edia streams are delivered to other session participants. We are working to revise our Internet drafts. We seek as much input as poss= ible into this prior to the meeting so that we can ensure that any discussi= on are as on topic and focused as possible. Regards Bo Burman & Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7141311 F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949021 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: bo.burman at ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------070906020204070805050006-- From xiajinwei@huawei.com Thu Jan 26 21:26:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258A521F857F for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4V+N90MnY-nt for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE0921F8616 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LYF004TMZ3URI@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LYF002CPZ3T2O@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml212-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AGO21761; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:25:45 +0800 Received: from SZXEML409-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.136) by szxeml212-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:25:28 +0800 Received: from SZXEML511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.206]) by szxeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.136]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:25:41 +0800 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:25:40 +0000 From: Xiajinwei In-reply-to: <4F16E2B9.1000905@ericsson.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.97] To: Magnus Westerlund , "avtext@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-04 Thread-index: AQHM1fR7FpeOwoVFb0iXHo1EH2FbWpYfmuHA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4F16E2B9.1000905@ericsson.com> Subject: [avtext] 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