From nobody Thu Jun 1 09:31:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A197412EAB2; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yfLeP2J19tMU; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CDC12EAAE; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 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<7E12A0C1-7195-4CF8-9ABA-3E84B3DC2EFA@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7E12A0C1-7195-4CF8-9ABA-3E84B3DC2EFA@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <34D00A21BA9A604E8F96EBDEF5D765DB@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-01_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706010307 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Question about draft-ietf-avtext-lrr X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:31:12 -0000 DQo+IE9uIE1heSAzMSwgMjAxNywgYXQgNzowOCBQTSwgRnJlZCBCYWtlciA8ZnJlZGJha2VyLmll dGZAZ21haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IA0KPj4gT24gTWF5IDMxLCAyMDE3LCBhdCAzOjA0 IFBNLCBKb25hdGhhbiBMZW5ub3ggPGpvbmF0aGFuQHZpZHlvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiANCj4+ PiANCj4+PiBPbiBNYXkgMzAsIDIwMTcsIGF0IDg6MjEgUE0sIEZyZWQgQmFrZXIgPGZyZWRiYWtl ci5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gSSBoYXZlIHJldmlld2VkIHRoaXMg ZG9jdW1lbnQgYXMgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgT3BlcmF0aW9uYWwgZGlyZWN0b3JhdGUncyBvbmdvaW5n IGVmZm9ydCB0byByZXZpZXcgYWxsIElFVEYgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGJlaW5nIHByb2Nlc3NlZCBieSB0 aGUgSUVTRy4gIFRoZXNlIGNvbW1lbnRzIHdlcmUgd3JpdHRlbiB3aXRoIHRoZSBpbnRlbnQgb2Yg aW1wcm92aW5nIHRoZSBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBhc3BlY3RzIG9mIHRoZSBJRVRGIGRyYWZ0cy4gQ29t bWVudHMgdGhhdCBhcmUgbm90IGFkZHJlc3NlZCBpbiBsYXN0IGNhbGwgbWF5IGJlIGluY2x1ZGVk 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([2600:8802:5600:1da::1003]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b12sm8956697ywe.8.2017.06.01.10.47.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Jun 2017 10:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <1C244D7C-9DCD-47B4-99FA-23072364D321@vidyo.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:47:10 -0700 Cc: "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "avtext@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63EC63C9-4BAD-41B6-A4FE-C910686EE8B1@gmail.com> References: <7C0202EA-A685-426F-9221-D9C39C352F77@vidyo.com> <7E12A0C1-7195-4CF8-9ABA-3E84B3DC2EFA@gmail.com> <1C244D7C-9DCD-47B4-99FA-23072364D321@vidyo.com> To: Jonathan Lennox X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Question about draft-ietf-avtext-lrr X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 17:47:14 -0000 Works for me. > On Jun 1, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Jonathan Lennox = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On May 31, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On May 31, 2017, at 3:04 PM, Jonathan Lennox = wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On May 30, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational = directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being = processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of = improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are = not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG = review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just = like any other last call comments. >>>>=20 >>>> My judgement: the document is ready. >>>>=20 >>>> Understand that my expertise is neither in codecs nor RTCP, and I = have not implemented the specification; there may be glaring issues in = it from an implementor's perspective for all I know. I'm looking at the = issues a network operator would face and need to deal with. >>>>=20 >>>> My biggest concern, from a network perspective, has to do with = congestion. The draft discusses congestion in passing, and calls for = "consideration" of the congestion issues and algorithms raised in RFC = 5104. The word "consideration" gives me some pause; Admiral Farragut = famously "considered" a minefield between his fleet and the harbor at = Mobile Alabama, and gave the order "damn the torpedoes, full speed = ahead". I'd hope for a stronger word there. Also, the "consideration" = in RFC 5104 is for congestion of the feedback path, but not the forward = data path (which, if it becomes congested by having too many layers = being sent, would reactively reduce its rate sometime later in response = to loss or delay in transit). I'm more concerned about the latter, as I = suspect an operator might be. >>>=20 >>> The cited Section 5 of RFC 5104 also talks about congestion on the = forward path. The relevant paragraph is: >>> Thus, modified behaviour MUST respect the bandwidth limits that the >>> application of congestion control provides. For example, when a >>> media sender is reacting to a FIR, the unusually high number of >>> packets that form the decoder refresh point have to be paced in >>> compliance with the congestion control algorithm, even if the user >>> experience suffers from a slowly transmitted decoder refresh point. >>> Do you feel that this needs to be called out more explicitly? >>=20 >> I'd like to see it more explicitly called out. I can readily imagine = an implementor glossing over the statement in the text: "OK, I thought = about it". I don't have a text suggestion. >=20 >=20 > How=E2=80=99s this? >=20 > Suggested change: >=20 > Replace=20 > The sender MUST consider congestion control as outlined in section 5 > of [RFC5104], which MAY restrict its ability to send a layer refresh > point quickly. >=20 > with >=20 > The sender MUST respect bandwidth limits provided by the application = of > congestion control, as described in Section 5 of [RFC5104]. As layer = refresh > points will often be larger than non-refreshing frames, this may = restrict a > sender=E2=80=99s ability to send a layer refresh point quickly. >=20 > (Also fixing Ben Campbell=E2=80=99s comment that the MAY in this = paragraph shouldn=E2=80=99t be capitalized.) >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jun 6 14:30:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0E7128BB6; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:29:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZIKklfqlck1; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C46F1286AB; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073110.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v56LOVoc021442; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:29:47 -0400 Received: from mail.vidyo.com (mail2.vidyo.com [162.209.16.214]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2auqv5hw5d-1 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 17:29:47 -0400 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:29:46 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Roni Even CC: General Area Review Team , "avtext@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMA Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 21:29:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5924C4BD17D7B24286A72B3867D63104@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-06_14:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706060372 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 21:29:53 -0000 SGksIFJvbmkg4oCUIHRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciByZXZpZXcuICBSZXNwb25zZXMgaW5saW5lLg0K DQo+IE9uIEp1biAxLCAyMDE3LCBhdCAyOjUzIEFNLCBSb25pIEV2ZW4gPHJvbi5ldmVuLnRsdkBn bWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gUmV2aWV3ZXI6IFJvbmkgRXZlbg0KPiBSZXZpZXcgcmVz dWx0OiBSZWFkeSB3aXRoIElzc3Vlcw0KPiANCj4gSSBhbSB0aGUgYXNzaWduZWQgR2VuLUFSVCBy ZXZpZXdlciBmb3IgdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4gVGhlIEdlbmVyYWwgQXJlYQ0KPiBSZXZpZXcgVGVhbSAo R2VuLUFSVCkgcmV2aWV3cyBhbGwgSUVURiBkb2N1bWVudHMgYmVpbmcgcHJvY2Vzc2VkDQo+IGJ5 IHRoZSBJRVNHIGZvciB0aGUgSUVURiBDaGFpci4gIFBsZWFzZSB0cmVhdCB0aGVzZSBjb21tZW50 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DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:38:11 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Roni Even , Jonathan Lennox , Roni Even CC: "avtext@ietf.org" , General Area Review Team , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAACiLwA== Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 07:38:10 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF80@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.201.114.24] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected 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Lennox To: Roni Even CC: Roni Even , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , General Area Review Team , "avtext@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAAQCzAA== Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:29:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-07_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 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"draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAACiLwIAA2PuA Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:32:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF80@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF80@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-07_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706070285 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:32:57 -0000 SXTigJlzIG5vdCBhIHNwZWNpYWwgbWVhbmluZyDigJQgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBtZWFuIGEgcmVxdWVz dCB0byBicmVhayB0aGUgZGVwZW5kZW5jeSBjaGFpbiBmb3IgdGhlIGJhc2UgdGVtcG9yYWwgYW5k IHNwYXRpYWwgbGF5ZXIsIHdoaWxlIGFsbG93aW5nIGhpZ2hlciBsYXllcnMgdG8gY29udGludWUg dXNpbmcgcmVmZXJlbmNlIHBpY3R1cmVzIGFjcm9zcyB0aGlzIGJyZWFrLiAgRmlndXJlIDIgaXMg YSByb3VnaCBhcHByb3hpbWF0aW9uIG9mIHdoYXTigJlzIGRlc2lyZWQsIGlmIHlvdSBpbWFnaW5l 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ZWN0aW9ucyBvZiBvdGhlciBkb2N1bWVudHMsDQo+Pj4gc28gdGhlIOKAnChTZWN0aW9uIDMuNS4x KeKAnSBwYXJ0IGlzIGp1c3QgYSBjb21tZW50Lg0KPj4+IA0KPj4+IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGludGVy bmV0LWRyYWZ0IHRvb2xpbmcgbWF5IGhhdmUgdGhvdWdodCBJIHdhcyB0cnlpbmcgdG8NCj4+PiBs aW5rIHRvIGEgbm9uLWV4aXN0ZW50IHNlY3Rpb24gMy41LjEgb2YgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCwgYnV0 IHRoYXTigJlzIG91dHNpZGUgbXkNCj4+IGNvbnRyb2wuDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4+IDMuIEluIHNlY3Rp b24gMy4yICIoc2VlIHNlY3Rpb24gU2VjdGlvbiAyLjEpIiBzZWN0aW9uIGFwcGVhcnMgdHdpY2Uu DQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gRml4ZWQuDQo+Pj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+PiBHZW4tYXJ0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+IEdlbi1hcnRAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2dlbi1hcnQN Cj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PiBH ZW4tYXJ0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gR2VuLWFydEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9nZW4tYXJ0DQoNCg== From nobody Wed Jun 7 11:50:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietf.org Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E57131464; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:50:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Fred Baker To: Cc: avtext@ietf.org, draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.53.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149686142937.2583.13332731633787220063@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 11:50:29 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [avtext] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:50:30 -0000 Reviewer: Fred Baker Review result: Has Nits I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. My judgement: the document is ready. Understand that my expertise is neither in codecs nor RTCP, and I have not implemented the specification; there may be glaring issues in it from an implementor's perspective for all I know. I'm looking at the issues a network operator would face and need to deal with. My biggest concern, from a network perspective, has to do with congestion. The draft discusses congestion in passing, and calls for "consideration" of the congestion issues and algorithms raised in RFC 5104. The word "consideration" gives me some pause; Admiral Farragut famously "considered" a minefield between his fleet and the harbor at Mobile Alabama, and gave the order "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead". I'd hope for a stronger word there. Also, the "consideration" in RFC 5104 is for congestion of the feedback path, but not the forward data path (which, if it becomes congested by having too many layers being sent, would reactively reduce its rate sometime later in response to loss or delay in transit). I'm more concerned about the latter, as I suspect an operator might be. However, that ultimately comes down to capacity planning and rate negotiation in SIP or whatever. Ship it, Danno. The authors replied, and we agreed on a text change. -06 should be "ready" from my perspective. Replace The sender MUST consider congestion control as outlined in section 5 of [RFC5104], which MAY restrict its ability to send a layer refresh point quickly. with The sender MUST respect bandwidth limits provided by the application of congestion control, as described in Section 5 of [RFC5104]. As layer refresh points will often be larger than non-refreshing frames, this may restrict a sender’s ability to send a layer refresh point quickly. (Also fixing Ben Campbell’s comment that the MAY in this paragraph shouldn’t be capitalized.) From nobody Sun Jun 11 04:20:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FC61294CC; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 04:20:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuIg5cD3EHXa; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 04:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366DE129503; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 04:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DIH36148; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:20:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 12:20:16 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.211) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:20:14 +0800 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.49]) by DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.211]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:20:13 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Jonathan Lennox CC: Roni Even , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , General Area Review Team , "avtext@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAAQCzAIAFrKRw Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:20:13 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0641@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.593D2772.0117, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.49, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e2a6e4c8b8332e96d28b21904c02d2cb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:20:27 -0000 SGkgSm9uYXRoYW4sDQpJIGFzc3VtZSB0aGUgbmV3IHRleHQgeW91IHByb3Bvc2UgaXMgDQoNCiJX aGVuIEMgaXMgMSwgVFRJRCBNVVNUIE5PVCBiZSBsZXNzIHRoYW4gQ1RJRCwgYW5kIFRMSUQgTVVT VCBOT1QgYmUNCiAgIGxlc3MgdGhhbiBDTElEOyBhdCBsZWFzdCBvbmUgb2YgVFRJRCBvciBUTElE IE1VU1QgYmUgZ3JlYXRlciB0aGFuDQogICBDVElEIG9yIENMSUQgcmVzcGVjdGl2ZWx5LiAgVGhh dCBpcyB0byBzYXksIHRoZSB0YXJnZXQgbGF5ZXIgaW5kZXgNCiAgIDxUVElELCBUTElEPiBNVVNU IGJlIGEgbGF5ZXIgdXBncmFkZSBmcm9tIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGxheWVyIGluZGV4DQogICA8Q1RJ RCwgQ0xJRD4uICBBIHNlbmRlciBNQVkgcmVxdWVzdCBhbiB1cGdyYWRlIGluIGJvdGggdGVtcG9y YWwgYW5kDQogICBzcGF0aWFsL3F1YWxpdHkgbGF5ZXJzIHNpbXVsdGFuZW91c2x5LiINCg0KSSB0 aGluayB0aGF0IHRoaXMgdGV4dCBzdGlsbCBvbmx5IGltcGxpZXMgdGhlIGJlaGF2aW9yLCBhbHNv 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clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706130276 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:13:18 -0000 SGksIFJvbmkg4oCUDQoNCllvdSBzZWVtIHRvIGJlIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoYXQgYSByZWZyZXNoIGFu ZCBhbiB1cGdyYWRlIGFyZSB0d28gZGlmZmVyZW50IGFjdGlvbnMuICBUaGF04oCZcyBub3QgdGhl IGludGVudGlvbiDigJQgYSByZWZyZXNoIGlzIGEgY2hhcmFjdGVyaXN0aWMgb2YgYSBzdHJlYW0g dGhhdCBhbGxvd3MgYSBkZWNvZGVyIHRvIHVwZ3JhZGUuDQoNCknigJlsbCB0cnkgdG8gZHJhZnQg c29tZSB0ZXh0IHRoYXQgbWFrZXMgaXQgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCBpdOKAmXMgcG9zc2libGUgZWl0aGVy IHRvIGluZGVwZW5kZW50bHkgdXBncmFkZSB0ZW1wb3JhbCBvciBzcGF0aWFsLCBvciBlbHNlIHVw 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[109.64.51.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e24sm22763380wre.54.2017.06.13.10.14.04 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Jonathan Lennox'" , "'Roni Even'" Cc: , "'General Area Review Team'" , , References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0641@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <116D9947-414D-47EB-A0C7-8031999E5A89@vidyo.com> In-Reply-To: <116D9947-414D-47EB-A0C7-8031999E5A89@vidyo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 20:13:37 +0300 Message-ID: <01fe01d2e468$662f18e0$328d4aa0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: he Thread-Index: AQEOBITKuJRO9nhiFivT7qoen86ZIALweQwbARran8oBJBqhhQNABGFpAZ6UghajXFYNEA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 17:14:13 -0000 Hi Jonathan, This will be good but maybe explain the upgrade means also refresh. = Because my poor understanding in English is that upgrade is adding a new = layer that was not available to the media receiver while refresh is to = restore existing layer (e.g. decoder synchronization loss). Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 7:03 PM > To: Roni Even > Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area Review = Team; > avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 >=20 > Hi, Roni =E2=80=94 >=20 > You seem to be assuming that a refresh and an upgrade are two = different > actions. That=E2=80=99s not the intention =E2=80=94 a refresh is a = characteristic of a stream that > allows a decoder to upgrade. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll try to draft some text that makes it clear that = it=E2=80=99s possible either to > independently upgrade temporal or spatial, or else upgrade both at = once. >=20 > > On Jun 11, 2017, at 7:20 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > > > Hi Jonathan, > > I assume the new text you propose is > > > > "When C is 1, TTID MUST NOT be less than CTID, and TLID MUST NOT be > > less than CLID; at least one of TTID or TLID MUST be greater than > > CTID or CLID respectively. That is to say, the target layer index > > MUST be a layer upgrade from the current layer index > > . A sender MAY request an upgrade in both temporal = and > > spatial/quality layers simultaneously." > > > > I think that this text still only implies the behavior, also the > > current text talks about upgrade but I assume it is also for a = refresh > > not only to upgrade > > > > Maybe " A sender MAY request an upgrade or refresh in both temporal = and > > spatial/quality layers simultaneously by either having C =3D1 or = by having both > CLID and CTID with lower values then TTID and TLID. If the sender want = to > upgrade or refresh only one layer then C MUST be equal to 1 and only = the CTID > or the CLID of the layer to be upgraded or refreshed should be lower = than the > TTID or TLID respectively " > > > > > > Roni > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > >> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 07 =D7=99=D7=95=D7=A0=D7=99 2017 = 18:30 > >> To: Roni Even > >> Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area > >> Review Team; avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 7, 2017, at 1:15 AM, Roni Even = wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Jonathan, > >>> I did not see the text you added yet as a response to my first > >>> question So to better clarify my question . If the FCI has = TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2 > . > >> does it mean that it is a request to update both? > >>> This was also the reason for the question about both TTID=3D0 and > >>> TLID=3D0, > >> which layer need update or is it both? > >>> Can you say that you want just to update temporal or spatial? > >> > >> Yes, if the FCI has TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2, it=E2=80=99s a request = to update both > >> layers =E2=80=94 or more specifically, to make sure that you can = start > >> decoding the substream with TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2. (For most = scalability > >> structures this would mean updating both, but exotic structures are > >> possible.) > >> > >> If you want to just update one part of the stream, that=E2=80=99s = what CTID > >> and CLID are for. If you sent TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2, accompanied = by > >> CTID=3D0 and CLID=3D0, that means that you already have TID 0, and = you > >> just want to increase the LID. > >> > >> The current text is at > >> https://github.com/juberti/draughts/tree/master/lrr , if you want = to > >> take a look at the latest revisions, or suggest text that you think = would make > it cleaner. > >> > >> > >>> Roni > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Gen-art [mailto:gen-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Jonathan Lennox > >>>> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 07 =D7=99=D7=95=D7=A0=D7=99 2017 = 00:30 > >>>> To: Roni Even > >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area Review Team; > >>>> avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [Gen-art] Genart last call review of > >>>> draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >>>> > >>>> Hi, Roni =E2=80=94 thanks for your review. Responses inline. > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Roni Even > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Reviewer: Roni Even > >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >>>>> > >>>>> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General > >>>>> Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being > >>>>> processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these > >>>>> comments just like any other last call comments. > >>>>> > >>>>> For more information, please see the FAQ at > >>>>> > >>>>> . > >>>>> > >>>>> Document: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-?? > >>>>> Reviewer: Roni Even > >>>>> Review Date: 2017-05-31 > >>>>> IETF LC End Date: 2017-06-08 > >>>>> IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat > >>>>> > >>>>> Summary: > >>>>> The document is ready with issues for a standard track RFC Major > >>>>> issues: > >>>>> > >>>>> Minor issues: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Can you specify both TTID and TLID in the same FCI. > >>>> > >>>> Syntactically, they must both occur. > >>>> > >>>> If you mean can you request an upgrade in both at once, yes; = I=E2=80=99ve > >>>> added text to clarify this. > >>>> > >>>>> 2. What is the meaning of value 0 for TTID and TLID - TID or LID > >>>>> =3D0 in frame marking draft means base layer if there is = scalability. > >>>>> This relates to the previous question. > >>>> > >>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure I understand this question. > >>>> > >>>> I=E2=80=99ve added text that if C=3D1, at least one of MUST be > >>>> greater than , and both MUST be greater than or equal > >>>> to their counterpart, so the LRR is actually requesting a layer = upgrade. > >>>> Is that what you were asking about? > >>>> > >>>>> 3. What would an FCI with both TTID and TLID equal 0 mean. > >>>> > >>>> It means you want a refresh of the base temporal/spatial layer, = only. > >>>> > >>>>> Nits/editorial comments: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Section 3 "an Real-Time Transport Control Protocol" should be > >>>>> "a Real=E2=80=A6". > >>>> > >>>> Colin pointed out that it should say =E2=80=9Can RTP Control = Protocol=E2=80=9D anyway. > >>>> > >>>>> 2. In section 3 " [RFC5104](Section 3.5.1)" there is a link to > >>>>> section > >>>>> 3.5.1 but it does not work. > >>>> > >>>> xml2rfc doesn=E2=80=99t have any way to link to sections of other > >>>> documents, so the =E2=80=9C(Section 3.5.1)=E2=80=9D part is just = a comment. > >>>> > >>>> I think the internet-draft tooling may have thought I was trying = to > >>>> link to a non-existent section 3.5.1 of this document, but = that=E2=80=99s > >>>> outside > >> my control. > >>>> > >>>>> 3. In section 3.2 "(see section Section 2.1)" section appears = twice. > >>>> > >>>> Fixed. > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Gen-art mailing list > >>>> Gen-art@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art > > From nobody Tue Jun 13 15:49:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF734131A57; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 15:48:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Nx8myBJ7PI6; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAAQCzAIAFrKRwgAPKzwCAABOJgIAAXZUA Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 22:48:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0641@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <116D9947-414D-47EB-A0C7-8031999E5A89@vidyo.com> <01fe01d2e468$662f18e0$328d4aa0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <01fe01d2e468$662f18e0$328d4aa0$@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-13_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 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mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 14 Jun 2017 13:37:53 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Jonathan Lennox , Roni Even CC: "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org" , General Area Review Team , "avtext@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 Thread-Index: AQHS2qO4IAQ0EK1qvUeY+IF4GawhgaIYtpMAgAAtEkCAAQCzAIAFrKRwgAPKzwD//zmbgIAAXZUAgADu7NA= Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 05:37:52 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0DE0@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0641@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <116D9947-414D-47EB-A0C7-8031999E5A89@vidyo.com> <01fe01d2e468$662f18e0$328d4aa0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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[109.64.85.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 70sm2346488wmu.28.2017.06.15.21.53.07 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Jun 2017 21:53:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Jonathan Lennox'" , "'Roni Even'" Cc: , "'General Area Review Team'" , , References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7CFF25@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0641@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <116D9947-414D-47EB-A0C7-8031999E5A89@vidyo.com> <01fe01d2e468$662f18e0$328d4aa0$@gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7D0DE0@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <23DA0728-571B-4D1D-A567-6C4F3D245C03@vidyo.com> In-Reply-To: <23DA0728-571B-4D1D-A567-6C4F3D245C03@vidyo.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 07:52:00 +0300 Message-ID: <001e01d2e65c$4b2a9fb0$e17fdf10$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQEOBITKuJRO9nhiFivT7qoen86ZIALweQwbARran8oBJBqhhQNABGFpAZ6UghYByHOz5gHNftrUAX0ZIuQCRL/WiKMlgM2w Content-Language: he Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 04:53:15 -0000 Hi Jonathan, In line Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 11:28 PM > To: Roni Even > Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area Review = Team; > avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 >=20 >=20 > > On Jun 14, 2017, at 1:37 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > > > Hi Jonathan, > > Probably part of my comment was based on the draft name , the = message > > name and the abstract (all about refresh). I did not see any text = about the > same usage limitation on FIR from RFC5104 "Using the FIR command to = recover > from errors is explicitly disallowed, and instead the PLI message = defined in AVPF > [RFC4585] should be used. The PLI message reports lost pictures and = has been > included in AVPF for precisely that purpose." > > > > I am OK with similar approach as you suggested, so do you mean that = PLI > should be used also in this case to recover from errors. >=20 > Yes, either PLI itself or some future to-be-defined per-layer PLI = equivalent. I=E2=80=99ll > add corresponding text for LRR. Would that satisfy your comments? [Roni Even] Yes this will be OK >=20 > > Practically it will interesting to see if applications are using = PLI and not FIR for > packet loss cases and what encoders do when receiving PLI. (-: >=20 > I suspect PLI and FIR are actually handled identically by most = applications, but in > low-bitrate scenarios it likely makes sense to treat them differently. >=20 > > BTW: errors is a general term, I assume that for FIR it meant errors > > due to packet loss (congestion) >=20 > Packet loss is the most likely, but packet corruption (in the absence = of UDP > checksums), or encoder or decoder bugs, are also possible. >=20 > > Roni > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > >> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 14 =D7=99=D7=95=D7=A0=D7=99 2017 = 01:49 > >> To: Roni Even > >> Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area > >> Review Team; avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 13, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Roni Even = wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Jonathan, > >>> This will be good but maybe explain the upgrade means also = refresh. > >> Because my poor understanding in English is that upgrade is adding = a > >> new layer that was not available to the media receiver while = refresh > >> is to restore existing layer (e.g. decoder synchronization loss). > >>> Roni > >> > >> Ah, I see. > >> > >> The design goal of LRR was for it to be used for upgrade, not for > >> synchronization loss, though of course now that you mention it, it > >> could certainly be used for the latter as well. (I.e. it was = designed > >> to be analogous to FIR, not to PLI.) > >> > >> As with the difference between FIR and PLI, the congestion > >> considerations are somewhat different between upgrade and > >> synchronization loss. Do you think it's worth addressing the = synchronization > loss cases explicitly? > >> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 7:03 PM > >>>> To: Roni Even > >>>> Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area > >>>> Review Team; avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >>>> > >>>> Hi, Roni =E2=80=94 > >>>> > >>>> You seem to be assuming that a refresh and an upgrade are two > >>>> different actions. That=E2=80=99s not the intention =E2=80=94 a = refresh is a > >>>> characteristic of a stream that allows a decoder to upgrade. > >>>> > >>>> I=E2=80=99ll try to draft some text that makes it clear that = it=E2=80=99s possible > >>>> either to independently upgrade temporal or spatial, or else > >>>> upgrade both > >> at once. > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 11, 2017, at 7:20 AM, Roni Even > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Jonathan, > >>>>> I assume the new text you propose is > >>>>> > >>>>> "When C is 1, TTID MUST NOT be less than CTID, and TLID MUST NOT > >>>>> be less than CLID; at least one of TTID or TLID MUST be greater > >>>>> than CTID or CLID respectively. That is to say, the target = layer > >>>>> index MUST be a layer upgrade from the current = layer > >>>>> index . A sender MAY request an upgrade in both > >>>>> temporal and spatial/quality layers simultaneously." > >>>>> > >>>>> I think that this text still only implies the behavior, also the > >>>>> current text talks about upgrade but I assume it is also for a > >>>>> refresh not only to upgrade > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe " A sender MAY request an upgrade or refresh in both > >>>>> temporal and spatial/quality layers simultaneously by either > >>>>> having C =3D1 or by having both > >>>> CLID and CTID with lower values then TTID and TLID. If the sender > >>>> want to upgrade or refresh only one layer then C MUST be equal to = 1 > >>>> and only the CTID or the CLID of the layer to be upgraded or > >>>> refreshed should be lower than the TTID or TLID respectively " > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Roni > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > >>>>>> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 07 =D7=99=D7=95=D7=A0=D7=99 = 2017 18:30 > >>>>>> To: Roni Even > >>>>>> Cc: Roni Even; draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area > >>>>>> Review Team; avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >>>>>> Subject: Re: Genart last call review of = draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jun 7, 2017, at 1:15 AM, Roni Even > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Jonathan, > >>>>>>> I did not see the text you added yet as a response to my first > >>>>>>> question So to better clarify my question . If the FCI has > >>>>>>> TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2 > >>>> . > >>>>>> does it mean that it is a request to update both? > >>>>>>> This was also the reason for the question about both TTID=3D0 = and > >>>>>>> TLID=3D0, > >>>>>> which layer need update or is it both? > >>>>>>> Can you say that you want just to update temporal or spatial? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, if the FCI has TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2, it=E2=80=99s a = request to update > >>>>>> both layers =E2=80=94 or more specifically, to make sure that = you can > >>>>>> start decoding the substream with TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2. (For = most > >>>>>> scalability structures this would mean updating both, but = exotic > >>>>>> structures are > >>>>>> possible.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you want to just update one part of the stream, = that=E2=80=99s what > >>>>>> CTID and CLID are for. If you sent TTID=3D0 and TLID=3D2, > >>>>>> accompanied by > >>>>>> CTID=3D0 and CLID=3D0, that means that you already have TID 0, = and > >>>>>> you just want to increase the LID. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The current text is at > >>>>>> https://github.com/juberti/draughts/tree/master/lrr , if you = want > >>>>>> to take a look at the latest revisions, or suggest text that = you > >>>>>> think would make > >>>> it cleaner. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Roni > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: Gen-art [mailto:gen-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>> Jonathan Lennox > >>>>>>>> Sent: =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 07 =D7=99=D7=95=D7=A0=D7=99 = 2017 00:30 > >>>>>>>> To: Roni Even > >>>>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org; General Area Review > >>>>>>>> Team; avtext@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gen-art] Genart last call review of > >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi, Roni =E2=80=94 thanks for your review. Responses inline. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Roni Even = > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Roni Even > >>>>>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The = General > >>>>>>>>> Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being > >>>>>>>>> processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat = these > >>>>>>>>> comments just like any other last call comments. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For more information, please see the FAQ at > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Document: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-?? > >>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Roni Even > >>>>>>>>> Review Date: 2017-05-31 > >>>>>>>>> IETF LC End Date: 2017-06-08 > >>>>>>>>> IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Summary: > >>>>>>>>> The document is ready with issues for a standard track RFC > >>>>>>>>> Major > >>>>>>>>> issues: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Minor issues: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 1. Can you specify both TTID and TLID in the same FCI. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Syntactically, they must both occur. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you mean can you request an upgrade in both at once, yes; > >>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve added text to clarify this. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 2. What is the meaning of value 0 for TTID and TLID - TID or > >>>>>>>>> LID > >>>>>>>>> =3D0 in frame marking draft means base layer if there is = scalability. > >>>>>>>>> This relates to the previous question. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure I understand this question. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve added text that if C=3D1, at least one of MUST > >>>>>>>> be greater than , and both MUST be greater than = or > >>>>>>>> equal to their counterpart, so the LRR is actually requesting = a > >>>>>>>> layer > >> upgrade. > >>>>>>>> Is that what you were asking about? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 3. What would an FCI with both TTID and TLID equal 0 mean. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It means you want a refresh of the base temporal/spatial = layer, only. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Nits/editorial comments: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 1. Section 3 "an Real-Time Transport Control Protocol" = should > >>>>>>>>> be "a Real=E2=80=A6". > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Colin pointed out that it should say =E2=80=9Can RTP Control = Protocol=E2=80=9D > >> anyway. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 2. In section 3 " [RFC5104](Section 3.5.1)" there is a link = to > >>>>>>>>> section > >>>>>>>>> 3.5.1 but it does not work. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> xml2rfc doesn=E2=80=99t have any way to link to sections of = other > >>>>>>>> documents, so the =E2=80=9C(Section 3.5.1)=E2=80=9D part is = just a comment. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think the internet-draft tooling may have thought I was > >>>>>>>> trying to link to a non-existent section 3.5.1 of this > >>>>>>>> document, but that=E2=80=99s outside > >>>>>> my control. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 3. In section 3.2 "(see section Section 2.1)" section = appears twice. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Fixed. > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Gen-art mailing list > >>>>>>>> Gen-art@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > > From nobody Fri Jun 16 08:25:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietf.org Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A971126B71; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:24:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: avtext@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149762669831.596.17827796532624415243@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:24:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:24:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions of the IETF. Title : The Layer Refresh Request (LRR) RTCP Feedback Message Authors : Jonathan Lennox Danny Hong Justin Uberti Stefan Holmer Magnus Flodman Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2017-06-16 Abstract: This memo describes the RTCP Payload-Specific Feedback Message "Layer Refresh Request" (LRR), which can be used to request a state refresh of one or more substreams of a layered media stream. It also defines its use with several RTP payloads for scalable media formats. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 16 08:42:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC75D1294B7; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:42:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pvAlHBdTOviX; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DA3E12946F; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073109.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v5GFe9n8010146; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:42:29 -0400 Received: from mail.vidyo.com (mail2.vidyo.com [162.209.16.214]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2b09vkvndv-1 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:42:28 -0400 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:42:27 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" CC: "i-d-announce@ietf.org" , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06.txt Thread-Index: AQHS5rbjmWjY1OvrBEyn6K/VT339vaIn9LcA Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:42:27 +0000 Message-ID: <7846C1BB-AE24-46FD-B6C3-86D6FB32976B@vidyo.com> References: <149762669831.596.17827796532624415243@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149762669831.596.17827796532624415243@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <9AAD8A6CEFC63E468110C6F585A37D0D@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-16_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706160258 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:42:32 -0000 VGhpcyB2ZXJzaW9uIGNvbnRhaW5zIGNoYW5nZXMgZm9sbG93aW5nIEFELCBPcHMtRGlyLCBhbmQg R2VuLUFydCByZXZpZXcsIGR1cmluZyBJRVRGIExhc3QgQ2FsbC4NCg0KVGhlIHN1YnN0YW50aXZl IGNoYW5nZSBpcyB0aGF0IGl04oCZcyBleHBsaWNpdGx5IHN0YXRlZCB0aGF0IExSUiBpc27igJl0 IHRvIGJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIHJlcGFpci4gIE90aGVyIGNoYW5nZXMgYXJlIGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb25z Lg0KDQo+IE9uIEp1biAxNiwgMjAxNywgYXQgMTE6MjQgQU0sIGludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRm Lm9yZyB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBBIE5ldyBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCBpcyBhdmFpbGFibGUg ZnJvbSB0aGUgb24tbGluZSBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdHMgZGlyZWN0b3JpZXMuDQo+IFRoaXMgZHJh ZnQgaXMgYSB3b3JrIGl0ZW0gb2YgdGhlIEF1ZGlvL1ZpZGVvIFRyYW5zcG9ydCBFeHRlbnNpb25z IG9mIHRoZSBJRVRGLg0KPiANCj4gICAgICAgIFRpdGxlICAgICAgICAgICA6IFRoZSBMYXllciBS ZWZyZXNoIFJlcXVlc3QgKExSUikgUlRDUCBGZWVkYmFjayBNZXNzYWdlDQo+ICAgICAgICBBdXRo b3JzICAgICAgICAgOiBKb25hdGhhbiBMZW5ub3gNCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IERhbm55IEhvbmcNCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEp1c3RpbiBVYmVydGkNCj4g ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFN0ZWZhbiBIb2xtZXINCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIE1hZ251cyBGbG9kbWFuDQo+IAlGaWxlbmFtZSAgICAgICAgOiBkcmFmdC1pZXRm LWF2dGV4dC1scnItMDYudHh0DQo+IAlQYWdlcyAgICAgICAgICAgOiAxNA0KPiAJRGF0ZSAgICAg ICAgICAgIDogMjAxNy0wNi0xNg0KPiANCj4gQWJzdHJhY3Q6DQo+ICAgVGhpcyBtZW1vIGRlc2Ny aWJlcyB0aGUgUlRDUCBQYXlsb2FkLVNwZWNpZmljIEZlZWRiYWNrIE1lc3NhZ2UgIkxheWVyDQo+ ICAgUmVmcmVzaCBSZXF1ZXN0IiAoTFJSKSwgd2hpY2ggY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gcmVxdWVzdCBh IHN0YXRlIHJlZnJlc2gNCj4gICBvZiBvbmUgb3IgbW9yZSBzdWJzdHJlYW1zIG9mIGEgbGF5ZXJl ZCBtZWRpYSBzdHJlYW0uICBJdCBhbHNvIGRlZmluZXMNCj4gICBpdHMgdXNlIHdpdGggc2V2ZXJh bCBSVFAgcGF5bG9hZHMgZm9yIHNjYWxhYmxlIG1lZGlhIGZvcm1hdHMuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gVGhl IElFVEYgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgc3RhdHVzIHBhZ2UgZm9yIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgaXM6DQo+IGh0dHBz Oi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0ZXh0LWxyci8NCj4gDQo+ IFRoZXJlIGFyZSBhbHNvIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb25zIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdDoNCj4gaHR0cHM6 Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0ZXh0LWxyci0wNg0KPiBodHRwczov L2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0ZXh0LWxyci0wNg0K PiANCj4gQSBkaWZmIGZyb20gdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIHZlcnNpb24gaXMgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0Og0K PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9yZmNkaWZmP3VybDI9ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1hdnRleHQtbHJy LTA2DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFrZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBt aW51dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbg0KPiB1bnRpbCB0aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQg dmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnLg0KPiANCj4g SW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFyZSBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBieSBhbm9ueW1vdXMgRlRQIGF0Og0K PiBmdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzLw0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gYXZ0ZXh0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KPiBhdnRleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9hdnRleHQNCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jun 19 09:42:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietf.org Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B1E1315E8; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Warren Kumari To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr@ietf.org, Rachel Huang , avtext-chairs@ietf.org, rachel.huang@huawei.com, avtext@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149789055182.10693.14113388808017091940.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 09:42:31 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [avtext] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:42:32 -0000 Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Firstly, thank you for addressing Fred Baker's OpsDir comments - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-avtext-lrr-05-opsdir-lc-baker-2017-06-07/ -- this change "fixes" the document for me. I found this document easy to read, and a useful introduction to the topic; this is in spite of my knowing basically nothing about codecs and RTCP. I did have some nits and a larger question: Question: 1: 3.1. Message Format (and others) The document says things like: " When C is 1, TTID MUST NOT be less than CTID, and TLID MUST NOT be less than CLID;" -- cool, no worries... But, what do I do if I receive an LRR feedback message where e.g: the TTID *is* less than CTID? Do I just ignore the message? Do I self destruct? (Basically, what does error-handling look like?) Nits: 1: 2.1. Terminology "In a layer refresh, however, other layers than the ones requested for refresh may still..." To me the "other layers" bit sounds clumsy - "In a layer refresh, however, layers other than the ones requested for refresh may still..." reads much better - this construct is in a few other places too. I don't think that this changes the meaning at all; tis just a nit, feel free to ignore. 2: The "numbers" in the figures feel like they are going backwards (or I've completely misunderstood the document :-)) -- I would expect the frame numbered '1' to be the first frame, and the second to be numbered 2. So, the number in the diagrams would go " 4 3 2 1 "; otherwise, you are counting "down" towards frame 0. It feels weird (and is somewhat confusing) for e.g frame 2 to be based on frame 3 (and not frame 1). I have no idea if this is the convention for frame numbering - if so, feel free to ignore. 3: The convention is Security Considerations go just before IANA Considerations -- swap S6 and 7? (Hey, I did say these are nits!) From nobody Mon Jun 19 16:32:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietf.org Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22E912956D; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:32:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr@ietf.org, Rachel Huang , avtext-chairs@ietf.org, rachel.huang@huawei.com, avtext@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149791514794.23784.4255587274124751697.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:32:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [avtext] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 23:32:28 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S 2.1. In a layer refresh, however, other layers than the ones requested for refresh may still maintain dependency on earlier content of the stream. This is the difference between a layer refresh and a Full This "however" is hard to read because the entire previous graf talks about layer refreshes. All the diagrams in this section would be a lot easier to read if they said that <- means "refers to" S 3.1 The Feedback Control Information (FCI) for the Layer Refresh Request consists of one or more FCI entries, the content of which is depicted in Figure 5. The length of the LRR feedback message MUST be set to 2+3*N, where N is the number of FCI entries. You should state that the length is in 32-bit words. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | RES | TTID| TLID | RES | CTID| CLID (opt) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ How is CLID optional? It seems like it still has to be there, unless I am misreading the text. Reserved (RES) (16 bits / 5 bits / 5 bits) All bits SHALL be set to 0 by the sender and SHALL be ignored on reception. I would mention that this is three fields. From nobody Mon Jun 19 17:12:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietf.org Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C008A126C7A; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 17:12:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Roach To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr@ietf.org, Rachel Huang , avtext-chairs@ietf.org, rachel.huang@huawei.com, avtext@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149791755869.23702.6987693628953211340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 17:12:38 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [avtext] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 00:12:39 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-lrr/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2.1: "...requires that a spatial layer be encoded in a way that references only lower-layer subpictures..." had me puzzled for quite some time, as I didn't think this was an inherent charateristic of *any* codec. It took quite a bit of re-reading before I figured out that this is referring only to the refresh packets themselves, not an intrinsic constraint on the stream across all time. Rephrase. The description of temporal scaling introduces the same confusion. I had the same heartburn as EKR regarding "(opt)" in Figure 5 -- given that it appears at the end of the data, there is a real risk that some implementors will attempt to literally omit the field rather than setting it to 0. Please remove the "(opt)". [n.b., I'm on the fence as to whether this should be a Comment or a Discuss, as it has the risk of introducing actual interop issues in the field]. The description for "Seq nr." indicates that the number is increased by "1 modulo 256." While it's certainly possible to figure out what is intended here, what this says on its face is to increase by one, as "1 modulo 256" is always one. Please rephrase to indicate that "modulo" applies to "Seq nr." instead of applying to "1". Section 3.2 indicates that the technique should not be used for picture losses (packet losses, presumably?), but instead for situations where not sending it would "render the video unusable." This all seems very subjective and ill-defined for normative statements. Please be precise with what you mean by "picture losses," and please give an example of when LRR SHOULD be used -- perhaps my imagination is a bit dull today, but I cannot come up with situations in which LRR would be appropriate, given this "MUST." From nobody Wed Jun 21 05:46:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A0B129AB7; Wed, 21 Jun 2017 05:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=BI0o5S7y; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=JgRlU5h9 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v_dkNtK9BoBE; Wed, 21 Jun 2017 05:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F38129AB5; Wed, 21 Jun 2017 05:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238520A4D; Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:46:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=pmrrKgaAUwLEFPjq0R eZDqnIvsVxS8bGqx1ZGV9RSQw=; b=BI0o5S7ypVMTN7S8lQqn8by3kXmCM3OptP VnldkEiIivdaS9tP7RPYYJ6QBZ89LT2rBuYhoyM5J96mUOVIwb6qgC8I4FCpEi67 HdU+2VOHOrZ3bzzr7tqHYVfQTre1XW6CAGM10AkxeNijgQUpzf24RW9Osb2Vjcw0 WAHsADkXetWp/0oCT0aJkzz0CuDkvbp4Hi5ffRt2YvjuinshX39WGfVTblGu68fv w3tcVhjqh4OqlWBnpXY0PHSaWxOioA8T37kl6rvn+mbiBHT6mXmF1O4a1SVB89Q9 WTCjQJ3rIuFHgxY6Bf91Kqe28QnAg0uAUXabfub7Pbj8I4wXuJog== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=pmrrKgaAUwLEFPjq0ReZDqnIvsVxS8bGqx1ZGV9RSQw=; b=JgRlU5h9 LeEu5Tc8/LEY796+iZGWXB0joaRDGybRRfSzCN0j5aE3NcKLO0iyqBXZqbPbtMmL 6dg2MWYn4yPf99ptIaAOlh47Hhl3xW51Nqd3gRTkEdu6s6iZZS0wiZ+cspCVksA0 F2zmjffuTxaOffLNBydYr7jWZ+Gj/lC2FX5ykXKtKXi/5b773HFvTRFhfoOi9hE0 iiXZ676KXgzL/cIk+QgHjIrzh5XqrQJ2X2MnsII5F5FrQe4eg7wWJGgGKLDZ/CKE ubrAvWuK23Fey2jyTfqUyLhE1XWzrUQAAIKgpYG8/rUvuyOr9cP8OgQOar5H/uS9 8A1it5gCn49dKw== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: cUgYRf4xhEa4D2Cr/BnjN15DTUM49QfBGfis3jQXsIoJ 1498049189 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8812.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.191]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 35A23245EF; Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:46:27 -0400 Cc: "gen-art >> General area reviewing team" , draft-ietf-avtext-lrr.all@ietf.org, avtext@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <149629998360.19813.14889515687249184753@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-05 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:46:33 -0000 Roni, thanks for your review. Jonathan, thanks for addressing Roni=E2=80=99= s comments. I have entered a No Objection ballot position on this = document. Alissa > On Jun 1, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Roni Even wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just > like any other last call comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-?? > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review Date: 2017-05-31 > IETF LC End Date: 2017-06-08 > IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >=20 > Summary: > The document is ready with issues for a standard track RFC > Major issues: >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > 1. Can you specify both TTID and TLID in the same FCI. > 2. What is the meaning of value 0 for TTID and TLID - TID or LID =3D0 = in > frame marking draft means base layer if there is scalability. > This relates to the previous question.=20 > 3. What would an FCI with both TTID and TLID equal 0 mean. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments:=20 >=20 > 1. Section 3 "an Real-Time Transport Control Protocol" should be "a > Real...". > 2. In section 3 " [RFC5104](Section 3.5.1)" there is a link to section > 3.5.1 but it does not work. > 3. In section 3.2 "(see section Section 2.1)" section appears twice. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Thu Jun 29 16:13:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121EF12EB0D; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFaO5-8rHb5O; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6474C12EAF2; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073110.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v5TNAJSC020193; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 19:13:17 -0400 Received: from mail.vidyo.com (mail2.vidyo.com [162.209.16.214]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2b9ju3ugre-1 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 29 Jun 2017 19:13:17 -0400 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:13:17 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Warren Kumari CC: The The IESG , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr@ietf.org" , Rachel Huang , "avtext-chairs@ietf.org" , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHS6RsNMw3gg5j+tEOCw43y2a8UAaI83C2A Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 23:13:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1339D3E6-7F6D-44E0-855F-B68E53515FE5@vidyo.com> References: <149789055182.10693.14113388808017091940.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149789055182.10693.14113388808017091940.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-29_16:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706290369 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [avtext] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 23:13:28 -0000 SGksIHNvcnJ5IGZvciB0aGUgZGVsYXkgaW4gcmVzcG9uZGluZy4gIFJlc3BvbnNlcyBpbmxpbmUu DQoNCj4gT24gSnVuIDE5LCAyMDE3LCBhdCAxMjo0MiBQTSwgV2FycmVuIEt1bWFyaSA8d2FycmVu QGt1bWFyaS5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gV2FycmVuIEt1bWFyaSBoYXMgZW50ZXJlZCB0aGUg Zm9sbG93aW5nIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbiBmb3INCj4gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1hdnRleHQtbHJyLTA2 OiBObyBPYmplY3Rpb24NCj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4gQ09NTUVOVDoNCj4gLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t 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ZXM7IGFuZCBmcmFtZSAyIGlzIGluZGVlZCBkZXBlbmRlbnQgb24gZnJhbWUgMS4gIFNvIGNsZWFy bHkgbXkgZGlhZ3JhbSBpcyBjb25mdXNpbmcuDQoNCkJ1dCBJIGNhbuKAmXQgc2VlIGhvdyB5b3Xi gJlyZSBpbnRlcnByZXRpbmcgaXQgdGhhdCB3YXkuICBXaGF0IGFib3V0IHRoZSBkaWFncmFtIG1h ZGUgeW91IHRoaW5rIGZyYW1lIDIgaXMgZGVwZW5kZW50IG9uIGZyYW1lIDM/DQoNCj4gMzogVGhl IGNvbnZlbnRpb24gaXMgU2VjdXJpdHkgQ29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgZ28ganVzdCBiZWZvcmUgSUFO QSBDb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucw0KPiAtLSBzd2FwIFM2IGFuZCA3PyAoSGV5LCBJIGRpZCBzYXkgdGhl c2UgYXJlIG5pdHMhKQ0KDQpObyBwcm9ibGVtLg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jun 29 16:23:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF88F126BF7; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, 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492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:23:43 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Eric Rescorla CC: The The IESG , "draft-ietf-avtext-lrr@ietf.org" , Rachel Huang , "avtext-chairs@ietf.org" , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHS6VRRpvJzUxcH7ka1Zm2vqVfiuaI83qeA Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 23:23:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149791514794.23784.4255587274124751697.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149791514794.23784.4255587274124751697.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-06-29_16:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qzV5IImMsdY; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC360124C27; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073110.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v5TNsTfJ002300; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 19:54:29 -0400 Received: from mail.vidyo.com (mail2.vidyo.com [162.209.16.214]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 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Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 03:26:50 -0000 --089e08259780a8c781055324fc62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Lennox wrote= : > Hi, sorry for the delay in responding. Responses inline. > > > On Jun 19, 2017, at 7:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: No Objection > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > S 2.1. > > In a layer refresh, however, other layers than the ones requested for > > refresh may still maintain dependency on earlier content of the > > stream. This is the difference between a layer refresh and a Full > > > > This "however" is hard to read because the entire previous graf > > talks about layer refreshes. > > The =E2=80=9Chowever=E2=80=9D is meant to indicate that we=E2=80=99re con= trasting the layer being > refreshed with the other layers which aren't. I=E2=80=99ve reworded as > > However, in a layer refresh, layers other than the ones =E2=80=A6 > > (incorporating Warren=E2=80=99s comment as well). Does that read better = to you? > A bit.... -Ekr > > > All the diagrams in this section would be a lot easier to read > > if they said that <- means "refers to=E2=80=9D > > Okay. I=E2=80=99ve added text to the figure preambles that says it indic= ates a > coding dependency. > > > > S 3.1 > > The Feedback Control Information (FCI) for the Layer Refresh Request > > consists of one or more FCI entries, the content of which is depicted > > in Figure 5. The length of the LRR feedback message MUST be set to > > 2+3*N, where N is the number of FCI entries. > > > > You should state that the length is in 32-bit words. > > Ok. > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | RES | TTID| TLID | RES | CTID| CLID (opt) | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > How is CLID optional? It seems like it still has to be there, > > unless I am misreading the text. > > Its use / semantic is optional, but yes, syntactically it has to be there= , > so (opt) is confusing. Removed. > > > > Reserved (RES) (16 bits / 5 bits / 5 bits) All bits SHALL be set to > > 0 by the sender and SHALL be ignored on reception. > > > > I would mention that this is three fields. > > Ok. > --089e08259780a8c781055324fc62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Lennox <= jonathan@vidyo.com<= /a>> wrote:
Hi, sorry for the d= elay in responding.=C2=A0 Responses inline.

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 7:32 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-avtext-lrr-06: No Objection
>
> -----------------------------------------= -----------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
>
> S 2.1.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In a layer refresh, however, other layers than the ones re= quested for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0refresh may still maintain dependency on earlier content o= f the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0stream.=C2=A0 This is the difference between a layer refre= sh and a Full
>
> This "however" is hard to read because the entire previous g= raf
> talks about layer refreshes.

The =E2=80=9Chowever=E2=80=9D is meant to indicate that we=E2=80=99r= e contrasting the layer being refreshed with the other layers which aren= 9;t.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ve reworded as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 However, in a layer refresh, layers other than = the ones =E2=80=A6

(incorporating Warren=E2=80=99s comment as well).=C2=A0 Does that read bett= er to you?

A bit....

-Ekr
=C2=A0

> All the diagrams in this section would be a lot easier to read
> if they said that <- means "refers to=E2=80=9D

Okay.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ve added text to the figure preambles that says it in= dicates a coding dependency.


> S 3.1
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Feedback Control Information (FCI) for the Layer Refre= sh Request
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0consists of one or more FCI entries, the content of which = is depicted
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0in Figure 5.=C2=A0 The length of the LRR feedback message = MUST be set to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A02+3*N, where N is the number of FCI entries.
>
> You should state that the length is in 32-bit words.

Ok.


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | RES=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| TTID| TLID=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | RES=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| CTID| CLID (opt)=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 |
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> How is CLID optional? It seems like it still has to be there,
> unless I am misreading the text.

Its use / semantic is optional, but yes, syntactically it has to be = there, so (opt) is confusing. Removed.


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Reserved (RES) (16 bits / 5 bits / 5 bits)=C2=A0 All bits = SHALL be set to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 by the sender and SHALL be ignored on reception.=
>
> I would mention that this is three fields.

Ok.

--089e08259780a8c781055324fc62--