From nobody Wed Oct 4 06:36:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40EDE132199 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:36:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qRnYmsCmFUHV for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx02.mail.netstorage.at (mx02.mail.netstorage.at [89.207.146.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D247133210 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p1002.netstorage.at (p1002.netstorage.at [89.207.146.186]) by mx02.mail.netstorage.at (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A58BA4391 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:36:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mailix (noaport.de [46.237.252.213]) by p1002.netstorage.at (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CD6BA8188C for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:35:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (HSI-KBW-46-237-252-214.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [46.237.252.214]) by mailix with ESMTPSA (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128) ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:35:59 +0200 To: cellar@ietf.org References: <2bddc712-3d56-0efd-058f-ff1533eb6f41@noa-archive.com> <94948eab-21ae-79be-4b6e-846e5a98f985@noa-archive.com> <43176f6d-6d24-c3cb-6f43-9cff7aa5a826@noa-archive.com> From: Tobias Rapp Organization: NOA GmbH Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:35:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PPP-Message-ID: <20171004133600.31085.2100@p1002.netstorage.at> X-PPP-Vhost: noa-archive.com X-NetStorage-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-NetStorage-MailScanner-ID: 0A58BA4391.A2942 X-NetStorage-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NetStorage-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (nicht zwischen gespeichert, Wertung=-0.5, benoetigt 6, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -0.50) X-NetStorage-MailScanner-From: t.rapp@noa-archive.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] Status of the ChannelPositions element X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 13:36:28 -0000 On 25.09.2017 17:33, Steve Lhomme wrote: > 2017-09-25 17:24 GMT+02:00 Tobias Rapp : >> On 24.09.2017 15:49, Steve Lhomme wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>> I like the 2 elements approach. For stereo, multichannel and >>> object-based things can be quite different. It's at least good to know >>> if a track is either 3 of these types (there might be more) before >>> selecting it. And the way we store the actual mapping for each can be >>> different. But we need a way to specify how each format is going to be >>> stored. We may even have 3 elements: multichannel, ac-3 style, binary >>> blob with a custom mapping. >> >> >> Not sure how channel mapping is done for AC-3. Do you refer to the "Audio >> Coding Mode"? >> >> So it seems we agree that using a "ChannelPositionType" / >> "ChannelPositionData" element pair would be the most flexible option. What >> would be the purpose of the third element you mentioned? > > For arbitrary values. For example you have just top and bottom > channels or north/south/east/west. In my two-element proposal this would map to another index value for "ChannelPositionType" and an according new data structure variant for "ChannelPositionData". Or did you mean that there is a separate element for each way of storing the information and the specification defines that only _one_ of the elements is stored per audio track within the file? In that case there would be elements like "ChannelPositionMask" (for storing the positions as a bitmask), "ChannelPositionAmbisonic" (for storing an ambisonics matrix), "ChannelPositionObjects" (for storing a Dolby Atmos object mapping), "ChannelPositionCompass" (for storing north/south/east/west), etc. In the latter case the element identifier would be the "type" indicator for the data format. This is also fine with me, if this is preferred. > I don't know if there are existing > ways to define all kinds of channel formats, or even some formats that > are kind of generic and we can reuse. I currently know of the bitmask approach used in Wave files (WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE, field "dwChannelMask") and the MP4/ISOBMFF "chnl" box which supports named channel configurations, spherical positions or objects (ISO/IEC 14496-12:2015E, based on ISO/IEC 23001-8:2013). Now I learned a bit about Opus ambisonics. Finding a way to combine all of these formats into a one-and-only generic format looks difficult to me. I guess there will be different formats with increasing complexity. Regards, Tobias From nobody Wed Oct 4 12:09:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422A91321C9 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:09:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=bunkus.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jzQ_I9jUQ5Un for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adara.bunkus.org (adara.bunkus.org [144.76.6.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F31413217D for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from liselle.bunkus.org ([2a01:4f8:190:8147::105:1]:47478) by adara.bunkus.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1dzp2h-0004u9-1T for cellar@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 21:09:16 +0200 Received: from sweet-chili.local (unknown [192.168.191.4]) by liselle.bunkus.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02FA2654001A for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 21:09:15 +0200 (CEST) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0B0206.59D531DC.007F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bunkus.org; s=mail2017070101; t=1507144155; bh=2lWcE+p6WU/q/AucgpDj8iaAVhF8KDGI0JL//LCj+Ps=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:From; b=H0aoEbrTPmkeUqMPIV3VR1iWvTI8baWDBxcbHgBGXk4nKSwrZuQvo9EqDXZtjCIgS gb+xLTtakiqq96uXzb0pzMXBSjSmit1tvLLnqdpSKlcSu6Uv3qU0o7mvphNEzwohks EjakH0pnTgeE3kfcam0ivhcLHqC9SGGnfhhDJCRwuB8tDlYkzavEwAtSRbQZGxhhrN OhVTJuB3sGS1iC6yTlDUeCHn8G18JiZroY96I0s+Pb1WpWgmEpTqjFs3zcBWjiYjAp +FSfvRHkpKe6q5ezlrmU0ZT1onS+oEdpb67W5cMYm+hLMdqdYLhNHO1lbj4e4UJ79l e7djT0lCuBWdWYH4xHXqnP3Vj/Jf5sAqOdxlQlGZqFMyfQ92KP0FLOD9BQk6hWpXoy B3iObmACn/PcEURFkQdCig/APJDYJQdG6EHZzMVXHwWy+jX2l0HBQ4No8NDcIthXiT yihgC3ZRDVVPBr8HRphcGeOfjzv2K6QXJROEuocB818bfSbyqNFcZxrIKhd6IPIinr 4mIb3p9rIMlg1opBM3TABDc1+RbjAj8IeC4AoQ32EzpX3L8F876Uc+JF9UQEEYkh4y SNDK4FT/FAk300b6nRyR5ixy1402eNVaSaZB2M2iP4z1aTfITyil2xcIkbMgOHx6vz tpkeplekPqQuhMe2BbpRpteQ= Received: from sweet-chili (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sweet-chili.local (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F8A420BF9A4 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 21:09:14 +0200 (CEST) References: <2bddc712-3d56-0efd-058f-ff1533eb6f41@noa-archive.com> User-agent: mu4e 0.9.18; emacs 25.3.1 From: Moritz Bunkus To: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission Cc: In-reply-to: <2bddc712-3d56-0efd-058f-ff1533eb6f41@noa-archive.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 21:09:14 +0200 Message-ID: <87y3oq91d1.fsf@bunkus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] Status of the ChannelPositions element X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 19:09:23 -0000 Hey, most if not all of you have been in favor of changing the wording from "timecode" to "timestamp". My objections to such a change aren't absolute. As I don't feel strongly enough to veto such a change, I'm now in favor of it. I've therefore spent the last couple of days changing all of MKVToolNix' usage of "timecode" to "timestamp", including: • the code • all user-visible program output and GUI controls • all command line options • all file formats • the documentation (safe for older usage in NEWS.md) • all translations The MKVToolNix programs remain backwards compatible insofar as they will continue to accept the old options and file formats as well (e.g. mkvmerge now lists "--timestamp-scale …" in its help output but accepts both "--timestamp-scale" and "--timecode-scale"). What I'm not a big fan of is mixing different verbiage. That's why I decided to change everything, even the output of tools such as mkvinfo. I realize that this may break existing applications that parse mkvinfo's output. I consider this to be the lesser of several evils: 1. Leaving mkvinfo's output with "timecode" but changing all other output and GUI controls to "timestamp" would be confusing to users. 2. Leaving all of MKVToolNix' user-visible output and GUI controls with "timecode" but having the specification change to "timestamp" would also be confusing to users. 3. Changing all of MKVToolNix to use "timestamp" would break existing third-party programs, but it would leave MKVToolNix itself in a consistent state with itself and the upcoming changed specification. I chose 3, also as I don't consider mkvinfo's output to be machine-readable (if people want stable interfaces they should parse the file itself, potentially by using existing libraries such as ffmpeg's libavformat, or use tools whose output is designed to be machine-readable such as MediaInfo's various formats). The change is now complete with revision ab4c565647e335471c70ea5da6bf81eaf9b39f12. If anyone wants to give the changes a try, you can get new pre-builds for Windows here: https://mkvtoolnix.download/windows/pre/ Kind regards, mosu From nobody Thu Oct 5 05:35:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C50134562 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 05:35:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7Z_-kroGq64 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 05:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A091342DB for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 05:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.101] ([93.243.175.52]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MEFqW-1e6g1K1Drs-00FTrf for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2017 14:35:30 +0200 To: cellar@ietf.org References: <2bddc712-3d56-0efd-058f-ff1533eb6f41@noa-archive.com> <87y3oq91d1.fsf@bunkus.org> From: hubblec4 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:35:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87y3oq91d1.fsf@bunkus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Eqz4ivCSazBLHwG32ngbTbQM/bkH2wpptgd0x39Qe+TwWml3WDQ /KGFHI5zDYPUb72ik4/XchL+eiA22D0Fo+FFF23Tub5WXKJijocXKZJU0N+MRwmmPAatdDy 2APHqHddg3eaPT8LZ7d2CSsNHQncYGpLUBOnCu8CC8WaQXr2lWbT7mnaof/mTXBN+Uufb2E XyHaaSAxqAQ2gfssrfnMg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:XTy8gKQ2POM=:GkNJoQwDyynun9XY4vzP85 SFBMce0in0UNNbBwol06digXwh8H/TRQRUOSUhUYTIdc3d2wy4Cr1w4watRHe5crf3aU0JVyS mHX6X5WCgLbWwHV92LQb1V3RlrSS2tmwBM3w+IwmVIsqtoB1ZKeKQ53+e8ODFdg9+WCk4PQMf GkvUee9C1qrg3q0k9nccUpQyq6AQDjbOGDIbPU8nGt3R0Ih10tjty3GDeweSX27xu9s39+4s1 Wq20XQwD2ho+i3ZZOm+s3Y3AcLV1UX1qnJme+O7rp7bHSz5+NPopsCmsRoh9MGkN3xtDltR+j tp7+hKMvcmitSshWYzIdolapHMXTwrBQX2JFTXqVH6y6iHh5PXFnwU4ZwPHPTZw4sdJiRGgzE KWXJHOjJnN+Cr4fQRYmiWn5H3oA4gAa+GLEZlertiMEqSab8g/cYgmXnRfqBh4/AfopCm5Etx lruaPb8QcDsyxxfiEiF3lO3SxNIMDMxc0EHmBWs1oBBRdhedBNFjm8CfHnQbsbuRm2kkb27pU hXQ128RMQZ9PVKyBQAHkcQAJDcSzEYL07ihzkUib8OHQpyXvZfSA7xRl98iQy9dJcUjBVFuSn DNNywolfrl1geAKzhd59nt+tOhhE5qQFOz+lSpCBHEHJaAqjyoRs/Nt2LSHZa8gtx8v1+CTdb AGs0x1KLwzxM/WxJXHXostPrJ/ZCxwf2u/tjD1Y8Oh5CpzWqnRjwdOvam035T+NMeH+whEHqG pmkSjqbx0zWPQcG9hQgEst8aR+fBjDjyj0q/3imlQiKhZQc31RWNnXA3Xp3gC2QYxNHDOUNXx qhUtz0cBdom2s7sXjAPz3SHvM/RBK/vVMMc+oJsYODIvPKvu/E= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] Status of the ChannelPositions element X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:35:37 -0000 Hey, Thanks for your work in this big task. I think option 3 is the best. The break of other tools is not so important like to stay in synch with the specs. I'm sure other developers will follow your changes. Best regards Martin Below Am 04.10.2017 um 21:09 schrieb Moritz Bunkus: > Hey, > > most if not all of you have been in favor of changing the wording from > "timecode" to "timestamp". My objections to such a change aren't > absolute. As I don't feel strongly enough to veto such a change, I'm now in > favor of it. > > I've therefore spent the last couple of days changing all of MKVToolNix' > usage of "timecode" to "timestamp", including: > > • the code > • all user-visible program output and GUI controls > • all command line options > • all file formats > • the documentation (safe for older usage in NEWS.md) > • all translations > > The MKVToolNix programs remain backwards compatible insofar as they will > continue to accept the old options and file formats as well (e.g. mkvmerge > now lists "--timestamp-scale …" in its help output but accepts both > "--timestamp-scale" and "--timecode-scale"). > > What I'm not a big fan of is mixing different verbiage. That's why I > decided to change everything, even the output of tools such as mkvinfo. I > realize that this may break existing applications that parse mkvinfo's > output. I consider this to be the lesser of several evils: > > 1. Leaving mkvinfo's output with "timecode" but changing all other output > and GUI controls to "timestamp" would be confusing to users. > 2. Leaving all of MKVToolNix' user-visible output and GUI controls with > "timecode" but having the specification change to "timestamp" would also > be confusing to users. > 3. Changing all of MKVToolNix to use "timestamp" would break existing > third-party programs, but it would leave MKVToolNix itself in a > consistent state with itself and the upcoming changed specification. > > I chose 3, also as I don't consider mkvinfo's output to be machine-readable > (if people want stable interfaces they should parse the file itself, > potentially by using existing libraries such as ffmpeg's libavformat, or > use tools whose output is designed to be machine-readable such as > MediaInfo's various formats). > > The change is now complete with revision > ab4c565647e335471c70ea5da6bf81eaf9b39f12. If anyone wants to give the > changes a try, you can get new pre-builds for Windows here: > > https://mkvtoolnix.download/windows/pre/ > > Kind regards, > mosu > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar From nobody Sat Oct 14 08:13:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79341320D8 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 08:13:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=bunkus.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PfwG80FYV9ul for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adara.bunkus.org (adara.bunkus.org [144.76.6.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E0ED1320C9 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from liselle.bunkus.org ([2a01:4f8:190:8147::105:1]:60252) by adara.bunkus.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1e3O7v-0003Xu-2B; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:13:23 +0200 Received: from sweet-chili.local (unknown [192.168.191.4]) by liselle.bunkus.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE5676540019; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:13:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bunkus.org; s=mail2017070101; t=1507994003; bh=lgg41sxlYo48uOS18/Ke9Fr4wdPKtlgS2avxphzo0fk=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=MDVmHmwvxhD35FdfJt0tfm8JMKlgk5cHpjFhu93CbiGd55c4srxI66lEuOBEvsWFh SRnXrnWa4j0z760GuPwR82q8mKbTsOg5FZ+P9hepsQcuFgfgmfzF5//S70/b4saZMQ jGhQlHQkGq/59+Hd1pna+ncNK7nKaHNOe+j/n1IEmpvc7kg0Aa2Eyo3X+bOAbJzhjz n99lKp2pE3gPCl9IDz82kbPb1DrkgmVBy6V+CA0bdUwhm7RkSmXE5ezWzkbXkkXuxn IWQDWddV9EhCDUC6epBkMPfgNIEEg/2eaBcuWyP5Z1OwkgM+SwbW1oo9h6zU2bnOE0 iAzC9Sm/36tYWrr+k+P807Onlw7fPakyAtyZjuPzIlehrcnGq3S2ARynEHs2eZxrqA xXl+lk1obSf824IVci2wXNgxx4pvXLlgzqyOYSZzq8cFE53vflx92cIQRlUC372kKo 0xNzTLvtzwUEgkI1Fh0WF63An5WzdtsQHUwJe+zH5sSYflEnufUfJper3Pl8rmfCJu EINkIHBavhfGCzkb3oAup5bhz6KWGNpb3IuH0f1rfC7JwyfNlnFGataqt56cq3EIHo KAN3nNGcTgd47w+oe26h1O7u7pKg56/PWCIBaWmR5ulh1y7ujdvKyGs6/R5U8oZZ0k LTIrySi3FkIwQ7obgYrn3Aj8= Received: from sweet-chili (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sweet-chili.local (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61463213B436; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:13:21 +0200 (CEST) User-agent: mu4e 0.9.18; emacs 25.3.1 From: Moritz Bunkus To: "help instructions\, talk about Matroska Questions" , Cellar list Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:13:21 +0200 Message-ID: <87y3odbw4u.fsf@bunkus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Cellar] MKVToolNix v17.0.0 released X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 15:13:34 -0000 Hey, Here's release v17.0.0 of MKVToolNix. The rather short timespan since the previous release is due to a nasty bug in the VC-1 code that a lot of people are hitting with v16. Other important changes are the overhaul of mkvextract's command line interface and all programs using the word "timestamp" instead of "timecode" (which also affects mkvmerge's command line interface). See the news below for more information. There were no changes for package maintainers. Here are the usual links: …to the source code: https://mkvtoolnix.download/source.html …to the binaries: https://mkvtoolnix.download/downloads.html The Windows and macOS binaries are available already. The Linux binaries are stil being built and will be available of the course of the next couple of hours. Here are the NEWS since the previous release: ------------------------------------------------------------ # Version 17.0.0 "Be Ur Friend" 2017-10-14 ## Important notes * The word "timecode" has been changed to "timestamp" everywhere it was used in MKVToolNix. This affects program output (including mkvinfo's), GUI controls, command line parameters (e.g. `mkvmerge --timestamp-scale …`) and file formats. All programs remain backwards compatible insofar as they still accept "timecode" in all those places (e.g. `mkvmerge --timecode-scale …`). The reason for the change is wrong usage. What both the Matroska specification and MKVToolNix used "timecode" for is normally called a "timestamp" in audio & video domains. A "timecode" on the other hand has a specific meaning. As the Matroska specification is moving towards implementing real timecodes, it will also move towards correcting the verbiage. MKVToolNix is following this change. * mkvextract's command line interface has been changed to allow extraction of multiple items at the same time. The first argument must now be the source file's name. All following arguments either set the mode (e.g. `tracks`) or specify what to extract in the currently active mode. Those items that were written to the standard output (chapters, tags and cue sheets) are now always written to files instead. Therefore the respective modes require an output file name. For example, extracting two tracks, the chapters and the tags can be done with the following command: `mkvextract input.mkv tracks 0:video.h265 1:audio.aac chapters chapters.xml tags tags.xml` The old interface (specifying the mode first and the source file name second) remains working and supported. However, it is now deprecated and will be removed at the end of 2018. ## New features and enhancements * mkvmerge: AC-3: during identification regular AC-3 and E-AC-3 tracks will now be identified differently for most container formats (exception: AVI, Real Media, Ogg/OGM). The codec will be reported as `AC-3` for regular AC-3 and as `E-AC-3` for E-AC-3 tracks instead of the combined `AC-3/E-AC-3`. * mkvextract: the command line interface has been changed to allow extraction of multiple items at the same time. See section "Important notes" for details. ## Bug fixes * mkvmerge: AAC ADTS parser: mkvmerge will now parse the `program_config_element` if it is located at the start of an AAC frame in order to determine the actual number of channels. This overrides invalid channel configurations in the ADTS headers, for example. Fixes #2107. * mkvmerge: fixed AC-3 being misdetected as encrypted MPEG program streams under certain conditions. * mkvmerge: Dirac: under certain conditions (e.g. only muxing a single Dirac track without any other tracks) mkvmerge was always setting the pixel width & height to 123. The frame rate was wrong, too. * mkvmerge: E-AC-3 in Matroska: if AC-3 cores and their corresponding E-AC-3 extension are located in two different Matroska blocks, then mkvmerge will now re-assemble them into a single block and only use the first block's timestamp. * mkvmerge: SRT reader: fixed calculating the duration of entries starting with at a negative timestamp. * mkvmerge: VC-1: under certain conditions (e.g. only muxing a single VC-1 track without any other tracks) mkvmerge was always setting the pixel width & height to 123. The frame rate was wrong, too. Fixes #2113. * mkvmerge: command line options: an error message will be output if the single-value-form of the `--sync` option is used and it isn't a number (e.g. `--sync 0:asd`). Fixes #2121. * mkvpropedit, GUI's header editor: both programs will now show proper error messages instead of crashing when certain kinds of data corruption is found when reading a file. Fixes #2115.[/quote] ------------------------------------------------------------ Have fun :) Kind regards, mosu From nobody Sun Oct 15 08:11:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3E513305F for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vd4uAeNV3xc4 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x233.google.com (mail-pg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8613C133059 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l24so4790997pgu.11 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lP4vCTfEZPUsK9EnfbI98F3JNLpmSuuSn/dVYg8gBWA=; b=Syff8Gcm85D+EAymdSD7jBm7YykixI8lH9IsG8wf9vRGaGwv66GtoGMeHyGNbRrxbC ncznQcYoIkisteyvKdRIfVEQK0ojJo7FtW40P7om2II7OJVVJndwJQplDRxR8rMvlfqE u+W7vGQVVKd8E3gA4ipc0uh/Sk6OzeJrBoH53PlfOY+ujm+e0gCL8dPBNdh8Q6BbXJEe 8T/1qfIbDu6qfpOpDlfH3V3BdZ6jGTwwRhKNVL9ReF4cY3dNdIIwd6r8be/LBM21gW/b umm6vhBUFZ1J36F7x3cgViZquP7Ib35P07DM6tiMTZ9V0GccRqlMyl54e/B5jFc5bePQ 7WOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lP4vCTfEZPUsK9EnfbI98F3JNLpmSuuSn/dVYg8gBWA=; b=Y9EkGIIpniVM2GZhkagSdERqQ+m3hqg0txgZLo6NobrKAotw2qVW5JUbh1MiDT18l3 XIPqQkjViRIYbeRyKOmasVYvSeNwQ2Z8DtKsH6Bn84eNKJtZ+21wiPxCDAIdXFVrO2nE xma698wnztnb8Cozm0sxYVPoIYWWtvw2p5pgzmprWxYlO3HAGa6cr7r2DtBcjKX07zIH 0lOnSiHwXnoRq7v5r2v3me54+LU3avLhQWWe5KpAsTzNV1gr7H5jMVaPcnwUvZ2h4hh9 6fbdoNyuDCs/laVP+C+qU1+otFHEL+Ge7yv5J1tF3j/y3iMzUaJ09TtHoKnI2RghmW3K TOjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUWT4nXP4ztx2RlEBTjUpaumLsW3vzjm0CjGFibeGbnZ9G7Rzu3 0X47sp+zcAbqoihM891dTQbBIMX8VG9o9RSi5cAo6uN3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QoqmUeX7f1PPlosX8AOFuukvqlx3h6M9LNa6fKLo2TdrR7xND7Pc9seEF/NvU3QAzjGExnBWZ4KIgoPuX7iG0= X-Received: by 10.84.241.207 with SMTP id t15mr432503plm.158.1508080295898; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.185.73 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <47677471-0154-6f74-1e0c-588eb63e6a00@mediaarea.net> References: <87ing5n8td.fsf@bunkus.org> <47677471-0154-6f74-1e0c-588eb63e6a00@mediaarea.net> From: Steve Lhomme Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:11:35 +0200 Message-ID: To: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] webm webvtt codec ids X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 15:11:38 -0000 2017-09-26 10:54 GMT+02:00 Jerome Martinez : > On 26/09/2017 10:49, Moritz Bunkus wrote: >> >> Hey, >> >>>> I=E2=80=99ve found a few matroska files using the "D_WEBVTT/SUBTITLES= =E2=80=9D codec >>>> id. This isn=E2=80=99t defined in the Codec specs and the =E2=80=9CD_= =E2=80=9D prefix isn=E2=80=99t >>>> either. I see this in both webm code and in libavformat. Does the =E2= =80=9CD_=E2=80=9D >>>> prefix for codec mappings have any meaning worth defining? Do >>>> "D_WEBVTT/SUBTITLES=E2=80=9D and "S_TEXT/WEBVTT=E2=80=9D have the same= meaning? >> >> D_WEBVTT/=E2=80=A6 are CodecIDs from the WebM mapping for WebVTT[1]. How= ever, back >> when I implemented WebVTT for Matroska in March 2016 I noticed that the >> WebM mapping was based on an older WebVTT spec and that it did not >> represent best Matroska practices. Therefore we decided on a different >> mapping in Matroska. See [2] for details. >> >> So no, we should not define it (our official mapping is S_TEXT/WEBVTT), >> and >> it is definitely not the same. > > > I suggest that we define D_WEBVTT/* in Matroska spec, as "reserved", + > "SHOULD NOT use and MAY read it" wording and a link to WebM website, beca= use > files are there and WebM is a lot used, we need to avoid conflicts. > any luck that WebM moves to Matroska version in the future? So there are 2 ways to handle WebVTT that are incompatible ? :( It seems indeed that the WebM spec is incomplete with some "outstanding issues" not resolved. This is not nice... Speaking of which it seems ISMC 1, a derivative of TTML, is going to be used a lot so we should have a mapping as well. https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1/ > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar --=20 Steve Lhomme Matroska association Chairman From nobody Sun Oct 15 08:24:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43E132D4E for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=bunkus.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cPsfCYXUWsfI for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adara.bunkus.org (adara.bunkus.org [144.76.6.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5AC513217D for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from liselle.bunkus.org ([2a01:4f8:190:8147::105:1]:58668) by adara.bunkus.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1e3kll-0001Kb-22; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:24:01 +0200 Received: from sweet-chili.local (unknown [192.168.191.4]) by liselle.bunkus.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 577286540212; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:24:01 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bunkus.org; s=mail2017070101; t=1508081041; bh=nsNIw7ULcJPxkNxmOpy8MnLkpd4bbLneck3EVdZoWFo=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:From; b=eQD8tdF9WyJgdgKmThfzgHxYKZ95wV1EULixjGRzAKL9RsUUqijXiPz84SJ4fYlGb Ko5QYGdnkLBMu0r+jPhEy1ouRYqeyk2+eYrV/jLokkxZHLrP3Aw1U1FTZ49/faeJAr U8vNKhF2Bk1vU6UcXfCf9a9l9N+QyjChJ1ZZbn+pZ7pLT1zyLOakdmcfJQCyX+ak/g T2Zo7DB3HqilcoV4LkDe0hOPR1Y04hGKMh78/LGbSvw1YR2Od4JVorsL/XI47+kaq0 ly7qlSN3Y7cppHU7FW9g2NW5nA6+gXDTeCq+q8AObTqnCAYYePlLASPBDDIvJXn9JD 7wecq1HOfYigmrfv2tWPXL6ERrnkA5J8Spqrrj6eqdXmTH8eYdS71aZXsu5ZaUB8/j ddts2HMBbUneJUZg9ntoQG2Pb+ASfcs4AsVwhDa20nY+KT+q055+1Pm6H2iRKJ322j LeoxUtqwpeGklfT5iPZLZn19q93l9mq4gc288chBy1hvHnFwoeWU66Kw+AXK/BaapZ imJQcEGYXUgW4LX/K3HSWYNmBDI7sJ54zXCL7AJ87JSqCGMJeR7Won1aczcaCRzk9o RHFDN6yTUyr53eK11Tmw8hxDDNLDrLYusMDMXZYFUGQv3RNdHm6q8vZNM+fkaMuUyw E6kljM/cichHJzZSw62Fmw9Y= Received: from sweet-chili (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sweet-chili.local (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0CD21887D0; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:24:00 +0200 (CEST) References: <87ing5n8td.fsf@bunkus.org> <47677471-0154-6f74-1e0c-588eb63e6a00@mediaarea.net> User-agent: mu4e 0.9.18; emacs 25.3.1 From: Moritz Bunkus To: Steve Lhomme Cc: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission In-reply-to: Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:24:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87k1zwigdr.fsf@bunkus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] webm webvtt codec ids X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 15:24:13 -0000 Hey, > So there are 2 ways to handle WebVTT that are incompatible ? :( Not really. There's one way that's incomplete, based on an outdated WebVTT spec and was never implemented in any kind of software (that would be the WebM way), and there's one that's fully specced, whose design went through Matroska, based on the current WebVTT specs and implemented in at least one program (that would be the Matroska way). > It seems indeed that the WebM spec is incomplete with some > "outstanding issues" not resolved. This is not nice... It's not even a spec. It's a draft, long since abandoned. Kind regards, mosu From nobody Sun Oct 15 08:28:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D47B132D4E for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mCu5c-NXdPWd for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AE0013217D for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id i5so860411pfe.6 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YCmp5LIM1Bj+IxOZUMIcA50Pu0BV7dIcPXgEtSUtprg=; b=EumHpf9xVAzGnZlfUz6IWWE3z6l8fw0d0sNGY/s3j9f1PtD5xKWL51EZLyvN2Ilmhw U8kF2NlsZBW+AIIBQ2LxSBuwLOOo82lrOD4YOmnEUnAu6H8TfdvST5CFMI8I693qb2Vq OhC5bPd1KRpMk3HJ3L0HLLjz3l/dbXCDOCNzHrxrQOfFvMquiCOIth6prH7nCDHyXZwv 6zAbtPPiZ/NrVmdg3UFnFctRz5MLyWyfTrg8NaxVerfho+fyyrIX2q2wzpL9QaFeC6EA OmFu4tcJMwgw4+GMqBFE6r3SGxRqaaOnH0SsVaR7F9p431Lk/gwX53xZuckpuprURm+u e7LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=YCmp5LIM1Bj+IxOZUMIcA50Pu0BV7dIcPXgEtSUtprg=; b=LB2HcMIBzrb4h7E5NuqPL+GtbmbLk6IMF2ypUGT+iYX82izaymjyK2hDiYyulmJuqw KH8lfv+C8u6bWSOIkPMHzetchdLd3OL2XV0lJGapCi0R3rXpUKswcw0ykcY/LnBvKm9D A5rVfTJ7ZE4GHmw8ixiJVU/CpBV7RFMXa6Klkt+nNW3HDODvOzsPUeZBeh5ioQCoZ9lO j7DDK3x/MvngSzaJI3fNA+TcwCV5FUptuyuCeAMuhjKu8BhTwFk3lx6CTL6xsZxnAVCo L9b0kAzlbDD1kulCFatZl8jDxpT/VhEsv51L2vr26ilV+axeRkPXoVcmWkqU7wVktyNb DgiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXKCtD/psWNocLQ5krv6HepcF6L5h3pwEiOeOmQ/xEpzbbHsEDo QMPWHWTpzG6J4dB3FCKb7y7I1U9JaHphkKVwrzLGUg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCFSEycAEqm72WuZfyPxhFR6N5ASFprlzYi+byTIL2ZzbEEaF5EEbGBzpX+IqE7aqwIlqvoRXyPOcyBv//Y420= X-Received: by 10.84.137.37 with SMTP id 34mr6679467plm.303.1508081335588; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.185.73 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:28:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k1zwigdr.fsf@bunkus.org> References: <87ing5n8td.fsf@bunkus.org> <47677471-0154-6f74-1e0c-588eb63e6a00@mediaarea.net> <87k1zwigdr.fsf@bunkus.org> From: Steve Lhomme Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 17:28:55 +0200 Message-ID: To: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] webm webvtt codec ids X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 15:28:57 -0000 2017-10-15 17:24 GMT+02:00 Moritz Bunkus : > Hey, > >> So there are 2 ways to handle WebVTT that are incompatible ? :( > > Not really. There's one way that's incomplete, based on an outdated WebVTT > spec and was never implemented in any kind of software (that would be the > WebM way), and there's one that's fully specced, whose design went through > Matroska, based on the current WebVTT specs and implemented in at least one > program (that would be the Matroska way). > >> It seems indeed that the WebM spec is incomplete with some >> "outstanding issues" not resolved. This is not nice... > > It's not even a spec. It's a draft, long since abandoned. > > Kind regards, > mosu So I agree that the D_WEBVTT/* should be mentioned in the specs and marked as reserved/deprecated. With a mention on the outdated status coming from WebM. -- Steve Lhomme Matroska association Chairman From nobody Sun Oct 29 08:54:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B24F13F582 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VDdojJCG0u2C for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4ABB13F57D for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id n89so8815099pfk.11 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matroska-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7pGBj0ln+CxVhAogkB4m2O0s90sohlFildzK+dG+Vy8=; b=a0QFZ6zStfP3TFJwPWi3XVB0mtAYRGsxZ0yTvUaZtGIQFBbunr203pKygg0hg1jwMj blbx6p1pRwOjRK32q2I7hdhwCP7uasuNA6wZvRkCjYrxfU4XcdsfIh4mHjE4a47yp7u8 FOmVNbRUKZsHTrOMKH4IzqpxXz0FuPoixESifTQ78ZOvTjvLAYH+P3+o6hN8nFZv2oie 6Yj7zhO7udHKdH2iANxmDSB2AE3XmEZbMSt0g7xLA+PUS1HYIdR+kFUHMc+vfatxPvhk uAZLRxx+x7jPBd798zUOm79whGaCjK++1xkDwhsDkWEKqWrrZ9HZGVPsPlek9kK34rFr zb1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7pGBj0ln+CxVhAogkB4m2O0s90sohlFildzK+dG+Vy8=; b=Icnkaqv+mEXZ1EjegT4qVkRW5PQRMIExG8OECp02SQ/lbaGtmP7Agb6qGUbtbuZsU6 8DKvwL92RaGGoi/D3IuS9sUbQ6Zi06BK3holPwUDQapXb9y5kS3dllbFGlWAXdrm3okT H5SPj7WV67nweURCAwNEGzToGwL5OAmt37M1hNPNYcl6swmh/WzoSh4Iiz1ReDT++v/B h/Z33NCnMtkrJDoA+HPFFj2FjR9bEa0YKk+eVLByhISqg766fA3U8LGtbsPohDfXLps5 dHMxvnijqGgMmPnMDFy6Xr+vs3QGebI8oNtza7FmZ0K8gjRejrUhpS60i3OeERKOCuIn dDXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVgfiQfrTAhdumNmIkv6VlXmIUn+SVGNbjp3gWjvLdYhjVMhMpr U5oUyurQVSS1kcmEUXDc0HaIqwer3ydGQZk5xeoQIHnq X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SOL9L/+F9TFRjGQt7tsab/c22zWVKkxqaY+AXJpMH/gQ3669FX+N72dZlDtfG4zeGemtrj8CNVp9AccW7aTs4= X-Received: by 10.98.62.142 with SMTP id y14mr6081093pfj.83.1509292437703; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.185.73 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Lhomme Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:53:57 +0100 Message-ID: To: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Cellar] Lacing for video frames X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 15:54:00 -0000 As some of you may know I was in San Fancisco a few weeks ago for 2 conferences (FOMS and Demuxed) about video, mostly on the web. I did a blog about it here http://robux4.blogspot.fr/2017/10/foms-and-demuxed.html Among other interresting things I found out about a new video container called CMAF. It seems to be a set of guidelines around fragmented MP4 which I didn't know existed either. It's targeted mainly at web video distribution with adaptive streaming in mind. CMAF seems even more specified in distribution of encrypted (DRM) content. WebM is used the same way and can achieve the same level of features (and even more with Matroska). But while I dug a little more, I noticed that fragmented MP4 tend to be much smaller than the same content in Matroska/WebM (see blog post for some details). It's because with fragmented MP4 (or the files I analyzed) the video frames are packed contiguously, the boundaries and timestamp being stored in a separate atom (equivalent of an EBML Master) which itself doesn't contain more info that that. To compare a fragmented MP4 frame with Matroska it would be something like this: fMP4 = [encoded frame] + [size of encoded frame] + [key frame flag] MKV = [SimpleBlock ID] + [SimpleBlock Length] + [SimpleBlock Header] + [encodec frame] I think we could reduce our overhead to reach something more in line with fMP4. It would be mean allowing lacing for video frames explicitly. Right now there's nothing that prevent it from being used. It may lack some descriptions though on how to interpret the timestamps and the SimpleBlock flags. I think for video it should required a DefautlDuration being present for the track and also that all flags are the same in the (Simple)Block, especially the keyframe. I'm also not sure if mkvmerge blocks it for video or not. Because the same flag has to be present and because we store frames in coding order, there might be cases where this doesn't work. When B frames are present you cannot tell the frame timestamp within a lace. So that may limit the use with codecs like H264 or HEVC. -- Steve Lhomme Matroska association Chairman From joshua.yocum@northwestern.edu Mon Oct 30 09:59:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A4782C2 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=northwestern.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUUcQ0mp4Dtn for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chcspprf10.ads.northwestern.edu (chcspprf10.ads.northwestern.edu [165.124.29.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 946F213FDA8 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (chcspprf10.ads.northwestern.edu [127.0.0.1]) by chcspprf10.ads.northwestern.edu (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9UGtURt006324 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:55:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=northwestern.edu; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=proofpoint; bh=UC683XMeky0B+ck1MBnJw+p5QDxXy5gUYklt4GU/CAg=; b=X6EAgREeoGgqlxvWjW8Uo6takO86Q/LK9bReZiia+chd8hnPxRYQJZfbiQ5fkcZbOg6i 8BUJc5zTETWg4ak45JiIFZcJNgnefhAjLw321EvnU+I3aqqqvK2radE+JQOu0L7ZH1vn /XaUfQSC4uzA1obkOc5jLno198DYgH/ZBoyxgJAonLBSJgg+kAp7bBWFTQfLzYsvO9Tj 75Nkps+sXB9J9J9+xKxhAsMRS+Z0hedIRT/JvBV69dybl4tZd9o/NwGFj/GWq8XMmBvN 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Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:08:22 -0000 Hi Joshua, I was adding some comments there but it looks like google have taken down the doc? Best, Kieran. On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum wrote: > Hi everyone, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX sequences these last= few months > and put together a document with some of my observations. I=E2=80=99d be= interested > in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 for film or have b= een > considering it and what your experiences or thoughts have been. Hopefull= y > this can generate a little discussion about what aspects of FFV1 still ne= ed > improvement for handling digitized film given current film scanning > practices and workarounds that others have considered for using the curre= nt > version of FFV1 with such materials. From my tests, FFV1 was very promis= ing > and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, although I also observe= d > the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran O=E2=80=99Leary = and others > when converting from DPX. I also encountered some quirks when playing ba= ck > files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others who are a little m= ore > knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about that. > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a link to a folder on Google drive with the document I=E2= =80=99ve put > together and some sample files. The DPX sequences that I tested reflect > what we have received from one vendor, so it would be interesting to see = how > this compares with DPX sequences that others are working with. > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByhHZqh-q6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc?usp= =3Dsharing > > > > And here=E2=80=99s a direct link to the Google Doc in that folder as well= : > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=3D1-nZj53eCuY_81qYVkVDdZRa_pkHicVzETaTAx= kCcYD8 > > > > > > Joshua Yocum > > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar > From nobody Tue Oct 31 07:57:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC9613F72A for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 07:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=theppsgroup.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KV0dGRJPAcjS for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp120.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp120.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B20BC13F732 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 07:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp24.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp24.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C75C824F08 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:57:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: jshupert@theppsgroup.com Received: by smtp24.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: jshupert-AT-theppsgroup.com) with ESMTPSA id 8B2C224EC7 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:57:40 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=theppsgroup.com; s=20170714-9s552x1m; t=1509461860; bh=kh937yy0ET7addBAzu95lVpwc0KnaI2xsWiO4X5hHTw=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:From; b=LezTIEptBX3Z7w4xUZHio5KVIZAL3e/D/eV9r3cbdN2QEWzdKnyVxxhFCiGt1W5y6 mMsuQ5PvlLds2bMxwlp7ichrgD4xKFKixKUXZr6kr7NLCokoJGDtILDL9qZFTgxvfL zTmQ/KVNnoHkgi8KCR5ciDIv+9at/ZZ4rO+58SsQ= X-Sender-Id: jshupert@theppsgroup.com Received: from [10.10.10.55] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [168.215.62.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:465 (trex/5.7.12); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:57:40 -0400 To: cellar@ietf.org References: <887DF3D8-04E6-49CD-8F28-C3C06D07CCC9@northwestern.edu> From: Jim Shupert Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:57:39 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------79BB442AA7F982A594BF3A19" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] FFV1 for Film X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:57:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------79BB442AA7F982A594BF3A19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is a shame.... i am interested in this I am a DPX , FFV1 , ffmpeg , film , tape etc etc kind o dude. I anxiously look forward to reading about your efforts. best wishes jim shupert, jr. On 10/31/2017 10:08 AM, Kieran O Leary wrote: > Hi Joshua, > > I was adding some comments there but it looks like google have taken > down the doc? > > Best, > > Kieran. > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum > wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> >> I’ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX sequences these last few months >> and put together a document with some of my observations. I’d be interested >> in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 for film or have been >> considering it and what your experiences or thoughts have been. Hopefully >> this can generate a little discussion about what aspects of FFV1 still need >> improvement for handling digitized film given current film scanning >> practices and workarounds that others have considered for using the current >> version of FFV1 with such materials. From my tests, FFV1 was very promising >> and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, although I also observed >> the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran O’Leary and others >> when converting from DPX. I also encountered some quirks when playing back >> files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others who are a little more >> knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about that. >> >> >> >> Here’s a link to a folder on Google drive with the document I’ve put >> together and some sample files. The DPX sequences that I tested reflect >> what we have received from one vendor, so it would be interesting to see how >> this compares with DPX sequences that others are working with. >> >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByhHZqh-q6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc?usp=sharing >> >> >> >> And here’s a direct link to the Google Doc in that folder as well: >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-nZj53eCuY_81qYVkVDdZRa_pkHicVzETaTAxkCcYD8 >> >> >> >> >> >> Joshua Yocum >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cellar mailing list >> Cellar@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar >> > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar --------------79BB442AA7F982A594BF3A19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is a shame.... i am interested in this
I am a DPX , FFV1 , ffmpeg , film , tape etc etc kind o dude.

I anxiously look forward to reading about your efforts.

best wishes

jim shupert, jr.

On 10/31/2017 10:08 AM, Kieran O Leary wrote:
Hi Joshua,

I was adding some comments there but it looks like google have taken
down the doc?

Best,

Kieran.



On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum
<joshua.yocum@northwestern.edu> wrote:

Hi everyone,



I’ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX sequences these last few months
and put together a document with some of my observations.  I’d be interested
in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 for film or have been
considering it and what your experiences or thoughts have been.  Hopefully
this can generate a little discussion about what aspects of FFV1 still need
improvement for handling digitized film given current film scanning
practices and workarounds that others have considered for using the current
version of FFV1 with such materials.  From my tests, FFV1 was very promising
and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, although I also observed
the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran O’Leary and others
when converting from DPX.  I also encountered some quirks when playing back
files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others who are a little more
knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about that.



Here’s a link to a folder on Google drive with the document I’ve put
together and some sample files.  The DPX sequences that I tested reflect
what we have received from one vendor, so it would be interesting to see how
this compares with DPX sequences that others are working with.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByhHZqh-q6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc?usp=sharing



And here’s a direct link to the Google Doc in that folder as well:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-nZj53eCuY_81qYVkVDdZRa_pkHicVzETaTAxkCcYD8





Joshua Yocum


_______________________________________________
Cellar mailing list
Cellar@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar


_______________________________________________
Cellar mailing list
Cellar@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar

--------------79BB442AA7F982A594BF3A19-- From nobody Tue Oct 31 10:30:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1456513FA08 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0i-1wctGh8Kh for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x241.google.com (mail-wr0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2FA13F9F3 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x241.google.com with SMTP id o44so16633316wrf.11 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vY/K6/7aTLLVsTswMmTAiI1RfoNnnzZpEY2CWhTlm9w=; b=kaA5jZ/0bo2Y5MlTx8YjaOv4Rn6FKveXCncrXKT207ffpSH/7S86Yu1oabdgXIn3ud YEOOIp6Pygi3NjgF/6uDqNaeFFO53eYBFKF53X5A3xTthrIwk3UXR5fo9wSRsibrx/k/ ou02Dwjz8d+VVwcB5Fz4U8hE6vLNBqL5VbiHyfayHOdAThfsMIgmGGgoCMqdh5rFMK0K 48egl0oo09Qty9B8FHg75jBdOgBCM7JKibfB+wX4nAF6VgDLedux7YsvEmjxWQgr4K/x jJ6mGaPcmBoElNGJYfkqLlWMzvSxa42hF3u5mOc9UiuV/bZXsIgPqWOqOfXf2t50A0XT dgxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vY/K6/7aTLLVsTswMmTAiI1RfoNnnzZpEY2CWhTlm9w=; b=H+/GW/CUjl6H+pnODsxGDft2NFUg1uUYeaRqVHnYW6q27l/pnG+j0CC3gu8Bk1D6hn YeINxo+nQR2RdPiIKREoen470PSbALtW3Ghl4G6zTGkQeCOwtjjj+MNdOFfFM/Pp0YzZ dgUF5AdJvsdS72E52JUAbSl04DnFmPlpCfdRseFwXrjjkh5ehmAoBTDTWDyK+Ga+RlBs e8k8uXP+PAEAKKSGrD7s0YI2WlKV/u9gpC6NLxXWplMcetyEOaOpicjxjggdSQ+MiwAz Tk+aUZ2iITb2ZaiJuNaN1BeCetSWVPj4KZvsxcvUNWhpj6cSdw7EYda1JA+SH86GYDbA 0Fyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaX5CFEyFtklAYBFZWp6HayNFdprYasU+v46aPsZfzIofZPyclmd cxfLML1GwVncrPf8DUYXTTzaS7OiH91Xu5yuyGKEzdQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QgLw5xwmgpnixR5VFmr2unTjeU3sGGUADBu/z7zTnBv06Tb0jpWXccHfCBMmPM++yNW5Le3jOJWsOuSTBd5k0= X-Received: by 10.223.165.65 with SMTP id j1mr2643203wrb.206.1509470998597; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.19.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <887DF3D8-04E6-49CD-8F28-C3C06D07CCC9@northwestern.edu> From: Kieran O Leary Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:29:58 +0000 Message-ID: To: cellar@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] FFV1 for Film X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:30:03 -0000 Aye, it looks like this issue is affecting a lot of people today: https://www.google.ie/search?safe=3Doff&ei=3DhbL4WYT_GeKugAaH0aeIDQ&q=3Dgoo= gle+docs++terms+of+service&oq=3Dgoogle+docs++terms+of+service&gs_l=3Dpsy-ab= .3..0i7i30k1j0l2j0i30k1.1774.2313.0.2796.6.6.0.0.0.0.119.407.5j1.6.0....0..= .1.1.64.psy-ab..1.5.344...0i67k1j0i8i7i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.WBEP6nwmq0s On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Jim Shupert wro= te: > That is a shame.... i am interested in this > I am a DPX , FFV1 , ffmpeg , film , tape etc etc kind o dude. > > I anxiously look forward to reading about your efforts. > > best wishes > > jim shupert, jr. > > On 10/31/2017 10:08 AM, Kieran O Leary wrote: > > Hi Joshua, > > I was adding some comments there but it looks like google have taken > down the doc? > > Best, > > Kieran. > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX sequences these last= few months > and put together a document with some of my observations. I=E2=80=99d be= interested > in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 for film or have b= een > considering it and what your experiences or thoughts have been. Hopefull= y > this can generate a little discussion about what aspects of FFV1 still ne= ed > improvement for handling digitized film given current film scanning > practices and workarounds that others have considered for using the curre= nt > version of FFV1 with such materials. From my tests, FFV1 was very promis= ing > and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, although I also observe= d > the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran O=E2=80=99Leary = and others > when converting from DPX. I also encountered some quirks when playing ba= ck > files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others who are a little m= ore > knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about that. > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a link to a folder on Google drive with the document I=E2= =80=99ve put > together and some sample files. The DPX sequences that I tested reflect > what we have received from one vendor, so it would be interesting to see = how > this compares with DPX sequences that others are working with. > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByhHZqh-q6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc?usp= =3Dsharing > > > > And here=E2=80=99s a direct link to the Google Doc in that folder as well= : > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=3D1-nZj53eCuY_81qYVkVDdZRa_pkHicVzETaTAx= kCcYD8 > > > > > > Joshua Yocum > > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar > From nobody Tue Oct 31 10:46:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cellar@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD08113F57B for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rkk5Mf1OEzsR for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from si-mailout03.si.edu (si-mailout03.si.edu [160.111.103.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD27413F547 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SI-MSECHT01.US.SINET.SI.EDU (si-msecht01.us.sinet.si.edu [160.111.49.153]) by si-mailout03.si.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173736CE184 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 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11:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oZAWf4eHJwJ6eiSGKIJgZj8B4LoHBIKi5SxOsKpD+Fg=; b=Y+PocAxcumWOAldCDg6GrnOAkeSSmV0XdqSA0/oWAmE7Z0tokSdE2uc/S15bUg6DGN VKe9mr8WcvVWDC22SjcDOTPFljDIe7nv+ot5JTv1H9/cWV2wO+TcFRG324bFSSOuWfvj nPpYQxaveWz1S89hE7s96L0NB5ov/SiIgc1bsxlm3DEr4kQOWOG+OCQqeclfwyOPsCiD 2rsoFwZFR8L6DNgUh7pPz6LQdQEgjZhxi1z72P3Jlw+xrtkuHmkFe0UqD8O/c8Qaey8s tcxOyUGdAdRRSDI9atBzV3//T07+c9LpkExeuXYg2awGJVN7Bpj+WSh9wcnnh6Q5ZUGl PLEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oZAWf4eHJwJ6eiSGKIJgZj8B4LoHBIKi5SxOsKpD+Fg=; b=DB48JjgLLpTDDCuvaqoZLp1sY5GASmVoK1D/ElY6owQqULreQj53kAdYyFySUi89CL en916TwpI/twrQvgz33rVa0sE0+wq70EuvprQxI28mT2JQSF3n6U6rEoZzFGKa9BWNb8 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cellar] FFV1 for Film X-BeenThere: cellar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:42:45 -0000 --001a11460acca6ef9e055cdc1e4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The doc is back up and running! On 31 Oct 2017 18:02, "Joshua Michael Yocum" wrote: > Hopefully it will be back soon. If Google Docs continues to cause issues= , > I=E2=80=99ll make some changes based on comments people have left and try= attaching > it as a word document. > > Just to add a little more context on the document. This only reflects > some basic tests we=E2=80=99ve done at Northwestern University out of an = interest > in seeing how well FFV1 might work for film projects we=E2=80=99ve gotten= in the > past and are planning in the future. It=E2=80=99s definitely not intende= d to be an > authoritative document on film digitization, DPX, or FFV1 and is intended > more to spark some discussion about FFV1 as a codec for digitized film. > The feedback that people have left so far has been very helpful and > informative. > > Josh > > > On 10/31/17, 12:30 PM, "Cellar on behalf of Kieran O Leary" < > cellar-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of kieran.o.leary@gmail.com> wrote: > > Aye, it looks like this issue is affecting a lot of people today: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > google.ie_search-3Fsafe-3Doff-26ei-3DhbL4WYT- > 5FGeKugAaH0aeIDQ-26q-3Dgoogle-2Bdocs-2B-2Bterms-2Bof- > 2Bservice-26oq-3Dgoogle-2Bdocs-2B-2Bterms-2Bof- > 2Bservice-26gs-5Fl-3Dpsy-2Dab.3..0i7i30k1j0l2j0i30k1.1774. > 2313.0.2796.6.6.0.0.0.0.119.407.5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-2Dab..1.5.344..= . > 0i67k1j0i8i7i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.WBEP6nwmq0s&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3D > yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=3D > RNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_- > UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3D3uPv3PtY7qiKsPYnfXUwzrqBtZ8tdQiGPQy3G4rg5fQ&e=3D > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Jim Shupert > wrote: > > That is a shame.... i am interested in this > > I am a DPX , FFV1 , ffmpeg , film , tape etc etc kind o dude. > > > > I anxiously look forward to reading about your efforts. > > > > best wishes > > > > jim shupert, jr. > > > > On 10/31/2017 10:08 AM, Kieran O Leary wrote: > > > > Hi Joshua, > > > > I was adding some comments there but it looks like google have take= n > > down the doc? > > > > Best, > > > > Kieran. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum > > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > I=E2=80=99ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX sequences thes= e last > few months > > and put together a document with some of my observations. I=E2=80= =99d be > interested > > in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 for film or > have been > > considering it and what your experiences or thoughts have been. > Hopefully > > this can generate a little discussion about what aspects of FFV1 > still need > > improvement for handling digitized film given current film scanning > > practices and workarounds that others have considered for using the > current > > version of FFV1 with such materials. From my tests, FFV1 was very > promising > > and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, although I also > observed > > the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran O=E2=80=99= Leary and > others > > when converting from DPX. I also encountered some quirks when > playing back > > files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others who are a > little more > > knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about that. > > > > > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a link to a folder on Google drive with the document= I=E2=80=99ve put > > together and some sample files. The DPX sequences that I tested > reflect > > what we have received from one vendor, so it would be interesting t= o > see how > > this compares with DPX sequences that others are working with. > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__drive. > google.com_drive_folders_0ByhHZqh-2Dq6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc-3Fusp- > 3Dsharing&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=3D > RNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_- > UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DnO8De6G8le3hMhlHSzZk086Gcf3b6nzq0W6jzQS5QFI&e=3D > > > > > > > > And here=E2=80=99s a direct link to the Google Doc in that folder a= s well: > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__drive. > google.com_open-3Fid-3D1-2DnZj53eCuY-5F81qYVkVDdZRa- > 5FpkHicVzETaTAxkCcYD8&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNX > t_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD- > DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DQrJOlsO0ewkElTCc62xI42Fk_ > 5JGc0ifE_BHYUbGb8Y&e=3D > > > > > > > > > > > > Joshua Yocum > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cellar mailing list > > Cellar@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE= 7rtNX > t_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD- > DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBi= CWm > -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cellar mailing list > > Cellar@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE= 7rtNX > t_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD- > DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBi= CWm > -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cellar mailing list > > Cellar@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE= 7rtNX > t_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD- > DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBi= CWm > -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE= 7rtNX > t_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD- > DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBi= CWm > -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D > > > _______________________________________________ > Cellar mailing list > Cellar@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cellar > --001a11460acca6ef9e055cdc1e4f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The doc is back up and running!

On 31 Oct 2017 18:02, "Joshua Mi= chael Yocum" <josh= ua.yocum@northwestern.edu> wrote:
Hopefully it will be back soon.=C2=A0 If Google Docs c= ontinues to cause issues, I=E2=80=99ll make some changes based on comments = people have left and try attaching it as a word document.

Just to add a little more context on the document.=C2=A0 This only reflects= some basic tests we=E2=80=99ve done at Northwestern University out of an i= nterest in seeing how well FFV1 might work for film projects we=E2=80=99ve = gotten in the past and are planning in the future.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s defin= itely not intended to be an authoritative document on film digitization, DP= X, or FFV1 and is intended more to spark some discussion about FFV1 as a co= dec for digitized film.=C2=A0 The feedback that people have left so far has= been very helpful and informative.

Josh


On 10/31/17, 12:30 PM, "Cellar on behalf of Kieran O Leary" <<= a href=3D"mailto:cellar-bounces@ietf.org">cellar-bounces@ietf.org on be= half of kieran.o.leary@gmail.co= m> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aye, it looks like this issue is affecting a lot of people to= day:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 htt= ps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.google.ie= _search-3Fsafe-3Doff-26ei-3DhbL4WYT-5FGeKugAaH0aeIDQ-26q-3Dgoogle= -2Bdocs-2B-2Bterms-2Bof-2Bservice-26oq-3Dgoogle-2Bdocs-2B-2B= terms-2Bof-2Bservice-26gs-5Fl-3Dpsy-2Dab.3..0i7i30k1j0l2j0i30k1.1= 774.2313.0.2796.6.6.0.0.0.0.119.407.5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-2Dab..1.5.344...0i67k1j0i8i7i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.WBEP6nwmq0s&d= =3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&= ;r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-D= XaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3D3uPv3PtY7qiKsPYn= fXUwzrqBtZ8tdQiGPQy3G4rg5fQ&e=3D

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Jim Shupert <jshupert@theppsgroup.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > That is a shame.... i am interested in this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I am a DPX , FFV1 , ffmpeg , film , tape etc etc kind o = dude.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I anxiously look forward to reading about your efforts.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > best wishes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > jim shupert, jr.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 10/31/2017 10:08 AM, Kieran O Leary wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Joshua,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I was adding some comments there but it looks like googl= e have taken
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > down the doc?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Best,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Kieran.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Michael Yocum =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jos= hua.yocum@northwestern.edu> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi everyone,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99ve been doing some tests with FFV1 and DPX seq= uences these last few months
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and put together a document with some of my observations= .=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be interested
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in hearing from people who have looked into using FFV1 f= or film or have been
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > considering it and what your experiences or thoughts hav= e been.=C2=A0 Hopefully
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > this can generate a little discussion about what aspects= of FFV1 still need
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > improvement for handling digitized film given current fi= lm scanning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > practices and workarounds that others have considered fo= r using the current
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > version of FFV1 with such materials.=C2=A0 From my tests= , FFV1 was very promising
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and offered a lot of benefits over other formats, althou= gh I also observed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the Color Primaries change that has been noted by Kieran= O=E2=80=99Leary and others
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > when converting from DPX.=C2=A0 I also encountered some = quirks when playing back
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > files with both VLC and ffplay, and I hope that others w= ho are a little more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > knowledgeable about these programs can chime in about th= at.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Here=E2=80=99s a link to a folder on Google drive with t= he document I=E2=80=99ve put
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > together and some sample files.=C2=A0 The DPX sequences = that I tested reflect
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > what we have received from one vendor, so it would be in= teresting to see how
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > this compares with DPX sequences that others are working= with.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://urldefens= e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__drive.google.com_drive_fold= ers_0ByhHZqh-2Dq6bEbmNVUFN4QzRTaWc-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=3DD= wIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r= =3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXa= oeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DnO8De6G8le3hMhlHSz= Zk086Gcf3b6nzq0W6jzQS5QFI&e=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And here=E2=80=99s a direct link to the Google Doc in th= at folder as well:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://urldefe= nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__drive.google.com_open-3Fi= d-3D1-2DnZj53eCuY-5F81qYVkVDdZRa-5FpkHicVzETaTAxkCcYD8&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DyHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&= ;r=3DRNiFWQPZa07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-D= XaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EKU_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DQrJOlsO0ewkElTCc= 62xI42Fk_5JGc0ifE_BHYUbGb8Y&e=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joshua Yocum
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-= 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3D<= wbr>yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa= 07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EK= U_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBiCWm= -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-= 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3D<= wbr>yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa= 07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EK= U_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBiCWm= -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cellar@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-= 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_cellar&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3D<= wbr>yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=3DRNiFWQPZa= 07L2HoPIFJyELgdRuvqlOp9K3mLZTSUqo0&m=3DD-DXaoeYlmSBBETWTtS5EK= U_-UbxB7zKZ7SvhtTEE28&s=3DdLCGG1cn5LS4AYXE903SBaXONBiCWm= -y0CpXy4Mc24s&e=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
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