From nobody Thu Jun 1 00:39:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F07129458; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 00:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yeE4tF9u_V2F; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 00:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A42D129426; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 00:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB47BE2D; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:39:48 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tqA7u35Lqg4d; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:39:47 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72CB1BE2E; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:39:46 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1496302786; bh=XyDU1+tq9uij3xRda4A3w/zl7nbcE8UG5e89xGRxUKA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VCYI1dNz6wjRJlV26e6RXeZOWl3nLyUeCJ88FxPnm7f9ATqyZgDf/ZmhGlO4y6WsS qa3nwYf1EkI0etvZu39pQaKHU5ZMZPzoWHxQBg9r8cKRUZFMfRniSURNefvZI/DoFg 6PFhjmfZe2QiyTv5dXMPD+KTDUHkW/hKAJlTS6fI= To: Alexander Pelov , lp-wan Cc: Core References: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:39:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qRG0aTFuik7rFwjWQF1TuE2u4wIgGCa6J" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] [lp-wan] Agenda for LPWAN interim meeting next Wednesday, June 7th X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:39:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qRG0aTFuik7rFwjWQF1TuE2u4wIgGCa6J Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Bw1NaNhee35nNGilX5X1fPBkp7GJNm4xi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Alexander Pelov , lp-wan Cc: Core Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Agenda for LPWAN interim meeting next Wednesday, June 7th References: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> In-Reply-To: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> --Bw1NaNhee35nNGilX5X1fPBkp7GJNm4xi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I don't really have any items to discuss about the overview draft unless someone else does (in which case raising those on the list beforehand would be good). The only outstanding item wrt that afaik is for the chairs to figure out if you think it's ready for WGLC or what. If you're happy that it is, then saying so on the list and just starting that would seem like a fine plan. If there are issues though, please let me know and I can try address 'em without having to sit through a phone call (you can tell that phone calls aren't my fav things I guess:-) Cheers, S. On 31/05/17 18:04, Alexander Pelov wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > You=E2=80=99ll find the updated agenda at the following address: https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-interim-2017-lpwan-04-lpwan-01/ >=20 > We=E2=80=99re nearing the finalization of the LPWAN Overview and the IP= /UDP SCHC document. >=20 > The CoAP SCHC document is also on track to be completed in the followin= g month. (thus CCing CORE) >=20 > Best, > The Chairs of LPWAN=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 --Bw1NaNhee35nNGilX5X1fPBkp7GJNm4xi-- --qRG0aTFuik7rFwjWQF1TuE2u4wIgGCa6J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZL8TBAAoJEC88hzaAX42iqvEH/1wMQALiLngdj4Dq7OcpMEax DNsQQDss6PtlpaLLzCCKwL2B3OcSPepU6wixTDT2xlJgOaQ0xIgIQpGEbCtkidqX 3m2SU5x/f1TabTKP0Q8drGohrGB36KhDNDGGYJgzy+oYNjuw3aEWt90zLk0axlmz Ox7jUeGSftDBjUBb1JsQPGJ2+awL75xlKSGQyG8rIQxg6S5CLF+U0vgfbcoVQc3/ 7zW0cpwQKcwyM5MlK7OKvrx0LGSnOy396n1yjY3qNWd1+JVH/7qN3JSI/QTmH6w5 9GHkxq3rrrrpVxPHG6qphtz8QVIS057Z00VaWxPgMP+ro3bA/PRGxRD/28/OQlg= =AiCZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qRG0aTFuik7rFwjWQF1TuE2u4wIgGCa6J-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 08:14:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338EE12EBA5 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.11 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XJNkN_hRZs0o for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-47.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-61.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 973331293F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([221.219.61.211]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 1 Jun 2017 23:14:14 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 528550278620 Message-ID: From: "weigengyu" To: "Jim Schaad" , "Hartke Klaus" Cc: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:14:14 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01D2DB2C.C9238D40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 15:14:25 -0000 这是一封 MIME 格式的多方邮件。 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D2DB2C.C9238D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim, > It turns out that my DTLS libraries are unable to give me the fact = that an=20 > epoch has changed, > but would know if additional authentication was done. Two very = different=20 > operations. It is not known what libraries are used. Here we use Califorium fore CoAP/DTLS/UDP/IP and CoAP/DTLS/SMS tests. The epoch is changed after receiveing ChangeCipherSpec at the server = side. Regards Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=D4=AD=CA=BC=D3=CA=BC=FE-----=20 From: Jim Schaad Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:26 PM To: 'Klaus Hartke' Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs At this point I would have to ask why similar language is not in the TLS = draft as well. Note however that this has nothing to do with epochs and everything to = do=20 with additional authentication. I think that an errata is called for to = clarify this. It turns out that my DTLS libraries are unable to give me the fact that = an=20 epoch has changed, but would know if additional authentication was done. = Two very different operations. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Hartke [mailto:hartke@tzi.org] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 5:02 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: core@ietf.org WG Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, the requirement was added for the case that the epoch changes due to = client=20 or server authentication. Example: 1. A client connects to a server using DTLS. The server authenticates with a server certificate; the client is unauthenticated. 2. The client sends a request that requires the client to be authenticated. 3. The server requests the client to authenticate. 4. The client authenticates with a client certificate; a new epoch starts. 5. The server processes the request, assuming it comes from the now authenticated client. Oops! Requiring that the request is sent in the same epoch as the response=20 prevents this. It seems the language in the RFC was made too broad when=20 trying to say that, though. An erratum could make it more precise. Klaus On 15 May 2017 at 06:21, Jim Schaad wrote: > I am working on getting my DTLS code to work correctly and I have come > across something that I do not understand. I did not see any messages > in the mailing list that dealt with this so I would like to get an > explanation if possible. > > RFC 7252 states that a response is not to be correlated with a request > unless the message id, the DTLS session and the DTLS epoch are the > same. I can understand the reasoning behind the id and session being > the same, however I am unsure of the reason that the epoch would need > to be the same as well. I cannot see of a reason why the epoch should > matter. The security session is still the same. I could understand > that there would be a reason to kill an association if additional > client or server authentication information had been passed along, but > while that would change the epoch, an epoch can change just because > enough messages have been sent over the pipe. > > Can somebody please explain the reasoning to me. > > Jim _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D2DB2C.C9238D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim,

> It turns out that my = DTLS libraries are=20 unable to give me the fact that an
> epoch has changed,
> = but would=20 know if additional authentication was done.  Two very different =
>=20 operations.

It is not known what libraries are used.
Here we = use=20 Califorium fore CoAP/DTLS/UDP/IP and CoAP/DTLS/SMS tests.

The = epoch is=20 changed after receiveing ChangeCipherSpec at the server=20 side.

Regards

Gengyu WEI
Network Technology = Center
School of=20 Computer
Beijing University of Posts and = Telecommunications
-----=D4=AD=CA=BC=D3=CA=BC=FE----- =
From: Jim Schaad
Sent: Monday, May 15,=20 2017 11:26 PM
To: 'Klaus Hartke'
Cc: core@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and=20 Epochs

At this point I would have to ask why similar language is = not in=20 the TLS
draft as well.

Note however that this has nothing to = do with=20 epochs and everything to do
with additional authentication.  I = think=20 that an errata is called for to
clarify this.

It turns out = that my=20 DTLS libraries are unable to give me the fact that an
epoch has = changed, but=20 would know if additional authentication was done.
Two very different = operations.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: = Klaus=20 Hartke [mailto:hartke@tzi.org]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 5:02 = AM
To: Jim=20 Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: core@ietf.org WG <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS=20 and Epochs

Hi Jim,

the requirement was added for the case = that the=20 epoch changes due to client
or server=20 authentication.

Example:

      1. = A=20 client connects to a server using DTLS. The=20 server
         authenticates = with a=20 server certificate; the=20 client
         is=20 unauthenticated.

      2. The client = sends a=20 request that requires the=20 client
         to be=20 authenticated.

      3. The server = requests the=20 client to authenticate.

      4. The = client=20 authenticates with a client=20 certificate;
         a new = epoch=20 starts.

      5. The server processes = the=20 request, assuming it = comes
        =20 from the now authenticated client. Oops!

Requiring that the = request is=20 sent in the same epoch as the response
prevents this. It seems the = language=20 in the RFC was made too broad when
trying to say that, though. An = erratum=20 could make it more precise.

Klaus


On 15 May 2017 at = 06:21, Jim=20 Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
> I am=20 working on getting my DTLS code to work correctly and I have = come
> across=20 something that I do not understand.  I did not see any = messages
> in=20 the mailing list that dealt with this so I would like to get an
>=20 explanation if possible.
>
> RFC 7252 states that a response = is not=20 to be correlated with a request
> unless the message id, the DTLS = session=20 and the DTLS epoch are the
> same.  I can understand the = reasoning=20 behind the id and session being
> the same, however I am unsure of = the=20 reason that the epoch would need
> to be the same as well.  I = cannot=20 see of a reason why the epoch should
> matter.  The security = session=20 is still the same.  I could understand
> that there would be = a reason=20 to kill an association if additional
> client or server = authentication=20 information had been passed along, but
> while that would change = the=20 epoch, an epoch can change just because
> enough messages have = been sent=20 over the pipe.
>
> Can somebody please explain the reasoning = to=20 me.
>
>=20 Jim

_______________________________________________
core = mailing=20 list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core= =20

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D2DB2C.C9238D40-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 09:10:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2053B129566 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Hl6ByxEHdBF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14E8A126B71 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1496333420; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=sGRIXZ2CJveLcFcYURhJK05Wtth0porH/xHV0ZnuuUw=; b=H+NsnTx0uhCSy3JLVIhpgsDR1JwsjgavGxRpcODADcwVb4z8ZznV2BACij30Cru2M8CdQ7qKTak q01YmB+y4wgBHql8/4CC7Js1w6EcXVJDEkfsDtr3SJkUkvG2QXdj65TWcJ4TcRRrOUp7AZEj+szt/ ODdW6mgEccRF95NahCqwXBBb3mn29+JhMTK57EtXqPi7SMKL3rccluMSLxM4xQm34b2JF4Je70Jx9 EObTFe1onZN0gSmPQxa+B6wI9cboaqFakGivefspIKYo8Z7KdNZ/rRQ8vUfJ2Lgl2L4y/V26h6oOG tWIs/jdI19+L0oK5BXQIfH9rg22WNsxuukNw== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:19 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (24.21.96.37) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:15 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'weigengyu' , 'Klaus Hartke' CC: References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDNpaiTKhTjOCugYu4GMFgItWlKOAHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+qPu/GHA X-Originating-IP: [24.21.96.37] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:10:26 -0000 Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said that = it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly = security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, the = epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Jim -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 12:13 AM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Klaus Hartke' Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, > It turns out that my DTLS libraries are unable to give me the fact=20 > that an epoch has changed, but would know if additional authentication = > was done. Two very different operations. It is not known what libraries are used. Here we use Califorium fore CoAP/DTLS/UDP/IP and CoAP/DTLS/SMS tests. The epoch is changed after receiveing ChangeCipherSpec at the server = side. Regards Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:26 PM To: 'Klaus Hartke' Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs At this point I would have to ask why similar language is not in the TLS = draft as well. Note however that this has nothing to do with epochs and everything to = do with additional authentication. I think that an errata is called for = to clarify this. It turns out that my DTLS libraries are unable to give me the fact that = an epoch has changed, but would know if additional authentication was = done.=20 Two very different operations. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Hartke [mailto:hartke@tzi.org] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 5:02 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: core@ietf.org WG Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, the requirement was added for the case that the epoch changes due to = client or server authentication. Example: 1. A client connects to a server using DTLS. The server authenticates with a server certificate; the client is unauthenticated. 2. The client sends a request that requires the client to be authenticated. 3. The server requests the client to authenticate. 4. The client authenticates with a client certificate; a new epoch starts. 5. The server processes the request, assuming it comes from the now authenticated client. Oops! Requiring that the request is sent in the same epoch as the response = prevents this. It seems the language in the RFC was made too broad when = trying to say that, though. An erratum could make it more precise. Klaus On 15 May 2017 at 06:21, Jim Schaad wrote: > I am working on getting my DTLS code to work correctly and I have come = > across something that I do not understand. I did not see any messages = > in the mailing list that dealt with this so I would like to get an=20 > explanation if possible. > > RFC 7252 states that a response is not to be correlated with a request = > unless the message id, the DTLS session and the DTLS epoch are the=20 > same. I can understand the reasoning behind the id and session being=20 > the same, however I am unsure of the reason that the epoch would need=20 > to be the same as well. I cannot see of a reason why the epoch should = > matter. The security session is still the same. I could understand=20 > that there would be a reason to kill an association if additional=20 > client or server authentication information had been passed along, but = > while that would change the epoch, an epoch can change just because=20 > enough messages have been sent over the pipe. > > Can somebody please explain the reasoning to me. > > Jim _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core=20 From nobody Thu Jun 1 09:37:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB9A12EC98 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdygCqbKUsFQ for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5535128C84 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v51GaOCc016553; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:36:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.113] (p5DC7F3A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.243.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wdtJm0s9ZzDH3l; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:36:24 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:36:23 +0200 Cc: weigengyu , Klaus Hartke , core@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 518027783.462149-76ac1c026ac756329931b154036d1eb5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:37:08 -0000 On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said = that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. =46rom a strictly = security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, the = epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly = restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be = supported by TLS libraries that are out there. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 1 10:46:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2701294D2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DnXm8VVPPYEE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8075D12EAAE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1496339133; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=wqqFmursu2wv/oD9qt2H9pA3PPLBDFmOhIsk029VSMQ=; b=J9J1YBgQe+yBu14VRBrZQdRx+FUoCJVnD44FpYS0P+7vxSjQx1C3yzK8+fzAOcOsY7AWw+NOJ3c PGw49o/lFJ1PmrVbMsbALXcPTzkigpTOzoI63pHUbG9QWX4foIe+EELI1smjrrqQzMTs5gdn1LPLe GdfH4RUH+G0nw4T6Ew/SpGSHvQl/3M+4mKwjirJkx6CVFjDnkHuRMtwAzmOEZFhcTTi6iSJ+vlWh7 Nj4hQiEKZ9rlRjZkRIKDv8QYsGo5xbvuymOZI/X/OEwNy9C/trhu0JaD245RjwxX/oicEmgm3b6ep hZu1y0OTFtuCi3JDaoMtYArDTWoiRaBUiAow== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:45:33 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (24.21.96.37) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:45:28 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Carsten Bormann' CC: 'weigengyu' , 'Klaus Hartke' , References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:45:26 -0700 Message-ID: <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDNpaiTKhTjOCugYu4GMFgItWlKOAHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+gECJzwEAn/HMtyj0wN+sA== X-Originating-IP: [24.21.96.37] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 17:46:00 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ; = core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said = that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly = security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, the = epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly = restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be = supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I = originally thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe = that is a correct use of the errata system. It is used for things which = are unclear or technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It = might be easiest to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of = errata that need to be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 1 17:28:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D3F12947A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_BL=0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_L3=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwOpP5cHWN7L for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-48.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-63.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.63]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DE43C129476 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([114.255.40.63]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 2 Jun 2017 08:28:35 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 71911265930 Message-ID: <4AAF54CE210B4FB99D4A1BF1F2F7790E@WeiGengyuPC> From: "weigengyu" To: "Jim Schaad" , "'Carsten Bormann'" Cc: "'Klaus Hartke'" , Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 08:28:36 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 00:28:46 -0000 Hi, > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said that it > does not tell me that the epoch has changed. > From a strictly security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for > example, the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Why the epoch changed event must tell "me", i.e. the upper layer entity? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:45 AM To: 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'weigengyu' ; 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said that it > does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly security > point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, the epoch > changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I originally thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe that is a correct use of the errata system. It is used for things which are unclear or technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It might be easiest to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of errata that need to be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr眉脽e, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 1 20:38:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94003131453 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tT9rZ97sYGQo for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22B1D1294C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1496374691; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=OG5mfOJ2itFTTL62GxS4gv6tHOHgufGyBvkKOYs5sP0=; b=hCZxwz12DJuHZCWykaQkdnCtBppZn/asfcDAl4MhckZQ4nvAYhqTZs4iOscpCVd4fxVk2/gCPqd 6oWxjBt7T1dyQ0tyHWVLED6YlyHTe+VKTNAcJt6Lyq3OUO+F5KKJ+YulRoKvcoUpvUBogPMeuP1gB RwIMSt9rufJLaxH0eaUjNXM72sSLBlEzSVu3IQYpbKghOEuFxD+mYA+532CXDTFeHX0iRaR+5Jj3j bHbsard4mfe9B10HilXRSvMgLJ7Pbbly1ZcLxWeM+rip0aCecnYiintYdxY93wcBooJ7z93PbCcXM 6dA3QCgbT0n8/UoQLwve/zl1437FwZtstLeg== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:11 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (50.39.83.102) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:08 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'weigengyu' , 'Carsten Bormann' CC: 'Klaus Hartke' , References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> In-Reply-To: <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:38:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDNpaiTKhTjOCugYu4GMFgItWlKOAHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+gECJzwEAn/HMtwCQrMlzAJeyvcCo66gRIA= X-Originating-IP: [50.39.83.102] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 03:38:17 -0000 Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate requirement = that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch value. Without = the knowledge that the epoch value has changed this is not enforceable = on either end. -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 5:27 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' = Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said=20 > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. > From a strictly security point of view there is no reason to do so if, = > for example, the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Why the epoch changed event must tell "me", i.e. the upper layer entity? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:45 AM To: 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'weigengyu' ; 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ;=20 core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said = that it=20 > does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly security = > point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, the epoch=20 > changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly=20 restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be=20 supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I = originally=20 thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe that is a = correct=20 use of the errata system. It is used for things which are unclear or=20 technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It might be = easiest=20 to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of errata that need = to=20 be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 1 21:10:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFA1129C3D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXCL1RKOTCrM for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09278129B3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1496376620; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=ozn+LqzHF/oLwSKr02bD8A798lmIRkCLWluZpQKvEb8=; b=YJHjBrIcsJrqj7TdBJssNArS2HNG0o3tadQI/ONovBXDVVl8OPGzEVFwgcrIqiYGF6RuYsPM8dj 7n9zMQqkb8Z4SnvWtKfD5ALUfllMI5bDIAIkxnkv9DrXLMen0wlyhWeyFxM1kw8Ec55c3HieeQnQ6 5earlLH1jH4cC2a2VyHmVpgN3GyaykR1z31jb3ad4NFT3Mn3727XbG1QeTGXWTp4+3b2OojupmJtX NetmUC4zZe0LLitOmk+a2PwA/gdOvz4w2UfKw8emAA7icNdLYrxGej6FLhmZxcAPhB5x0985Rqxb/ 5WGQWR013Tu5KAKfgeuu5cHCmdUZfaM9yjlA== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:19 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (50.39.83.102) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:16 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'weigengyu' CC: 'Klaus Hartke' , References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDNpaiTKhTjOCugYu4GMFgItWlKOAHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+gECJzwEAn/HMtwCQrMlzAJeyvcCAqXT4VwCCbk/56OJLfCA X-Originating-IP: [50.39.83.102] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 04:10:26 -0000 My intention is to get rid of the requirement since it makes no sense. = That is what the message I sent to Carsten was about. What is the best = process for doing so. Jim -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:58 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' = Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, Thank you for your explainations. > Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate=20 > requirement that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch = value. It is really unfortunate requirements that the application protocol is = forced to be tied with the lower-layer variable. Is there an intension to creat a cross-layer mechanim? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 11:38 AM To: 'weigengyu' ; 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate requirement = that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch value. Without = the knowledge that the epoch value has changed this is not enforceable = on either end. -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 5:27 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' = Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said=20 > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. > From a strictly security point of view there is no reason to do so if, = > for example, the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Why the epoch changed event must tell "me", i.e. the upper layer entity? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:45 AM To: 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'weigengyu' ; 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ; = core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said=20 > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly=20 > security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example,=20 > the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly = restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be = supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I = originally thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe = that is a correct use of the errata system. It is used for things which = are unclear or technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It = might be easiest to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of = errata that need to be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jun 2 09:58:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F881293DA for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2vmo-arhr-0h for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 591EC127B57 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR03MB2265; H:CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR03MB22659420C1138FC53CB70D4FA3F70CY1PR03MB2265namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Jun 2017 16:58:29.8532 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR03MB2265 Archived-At: Subject: [core] draft-ietf-core-resource-directory: discovering transport identifiers X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:58:44 -0000 --_000_CY1PR03MB22659420C1138FC53CB70D4FA3F70CY1PR03MB2265namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's say a resource server exposes a "/sensors/temperature" resource it wa= nts to publish in an RD. That resource is accessible over (say) the OCF protocol at the app layer. The server supports the OCF protocol over (say) some or all of: coap, coaps= , http, and https (and I note that the draft explicitly allows for http in the last= sentence of section 1). The server supports coap over some or all of: udp, tcp, and websockets. The server supports each of those over both IPv4 and IPv6. The server has multiple IPv4 and IPv6 addresses, e.g., on two different sub= nets, (and let's say the server has no resolvable DNS name, so it cannot put a ho= stname in a URI). So presumably everything needed to learn the protocol stack and endpoint id= entifier (e.g., port number, path, whatever) at each layer must be published in the RD. But the draft only mentions application/link-format and a single "con" URI which section 5.4.1 fills in with a coap URI. In contrast, draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-09 sections 7.3 and 7.4 implies that ws(s) URI= s are required in addition in order to express that the coap URI is reachable= via websockets. Section 7.2 of that draft doesn't even say how to express tha= t it's reachable over TCP, nor does it explain how to know whether the port n= umber is the UDP or the TCP port number (since they could be different), when the server supports both. As such, the RD draft doesn't seem to be sufficient to support multiple tra= nsports. And the same argument for why draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls changed to not p= ut the transport in the scheme would argue for the main "con" parameter to be, in = my example, the "ocf:" URI (not "coap:") since coap and http are simply two tr= ansports that get to the exact same resource. It seems to me that to really solve the RD problem, you need a tree of con = URIs, since it seems the approach is to have a URI for each layer of the stack, a= nd a client has to be able to discover the entire stack. Am I missing something? It would be helpful to add a full example into th= e RD draft to show a registration for resource over multiple transport stacks. Dave --_000_CY1PR03MB22659420C1138FC53CB70D4FA3F70CY1PR03MB2265namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Let’s say a resource server exposes a “/= sensors/temperature” resource it wants to publish in an RD.

That resource is accessible over (say) the OCF proto= col at the app layer.

The server supports the OCF protocol over (say) some= or all of: coap, coaps, http,

and https (and I note that the draft explicitly allo= ws for http in the last sentence of section 1).

The server supports coap over some or all of: udp, t= cp, and websockets.

The server supports each of those over both IPv4 and= IPv6.

The server has multiple IPv4 and IPv6 addresses, e.g= ., on two different subnets,

(and let’s say the server has no resolvable DN= S name, so it cannot put a hostname in a URI).

So presumably everything needed to learn the protoco= l stack and endpoint identifier (e.g.,

port number, path, whatever) at each layer must be p= ublished in the RD.

 

But the draft only mentions applic= ation/link-format and a single “con” URI

which section 5.4.1 fills in with = a coap URI.  In contrast,

draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-09 se= ctions 7.3 and 7.4 implies that ws(s) URIs

are required in addition in order = to express that the coap URI is reachable via

websockets.   Section 7.= 2 of that draft doesn’t even say how to express that

it’s reachable over TCP, nor= does it explain how to know whether the port number

is the UDP or the TCP port number = (since they could be different), when the

server supports both.

 

As such, the RD draft doesn’= t seem to be sufficient to support multiple transports.

And the same argument for why draf= t-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls changed to not put the

transport in the scheme would argu= e for the main “con” parameter to be, in my

example, the “ocf:” UR= I (not “coap:”) since coap and http are simply two transports

that get to the exact same resourc= e.

 

It seems to me that to really solv= e the RD problem, you need a tree of con URIs,

since it seems the approach is to = have a URI for each layer of the stack, and a

client has to be able to discover = the entire stack.

 

Am I missing something?  = ; It would be helpful to add a full example into the RD

draft to show a registration for r= esource over multiple transport stacks.

 

Dave

--_000_CY1PR03MB22659420C1138FC53CB70D4FA3F70CY1PR03MB2265namp_-- From nobody Mon Jun 5 04:54:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA2D126CF9 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.439, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qxJ5qZKeNV9p for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 04:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-47.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-64.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F0021271DF for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 04:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([117.136.38.145]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 5 Jun 2017 19:54:02 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 191293278659 Message-ID: <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> From: "weigengyu" To: "Jim Schaad" Cc: "'Klaus Hartke'" , "Carsten Bormann" , References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 19:54:01 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 11:54:13 -0000 Hi Jim, I present our opinions about epoch changes. In weekend we (my studens: Mr. Haihai REN and Jiantong LI) reviewed the source code of Cf. CoAP and RFC7252 9.1. Based on the text of RFC7252 and the layered protocol concepts, it may be a problem to tie the CoAP message with DTLS epoch, as you pointed. It may be a problem how the CoAP entity knows the DTLS epoch changes. But, such a problem has never be happened in our previous works. Why? Reviewing Cf. CoAP's source code, it becomes clear that the CoAP entity would read the DTLS epoch when it starts sending messages. In this specific implementation, the CoAP entity has the ability to read DTLS epoch of another object which is a variable of another layer in protocol concepts. In Cf.CoAP source code, when the CoAP entity needs to send messages, it invokes the DTLS entity to work, i.e. to do server and client authentifications; then the client sends ChangeChipherSpec, and server' Finish, the DTLS's epoch change. Actually the epoch is plus one. Then the CoAP entity would get DTLS epoch and begin to send CoAP messages over DTLS Record. It is clear that the CoAP entity could get the new epoch in Cf. CoAP. It is known that Cf. CoAP is a specific implementation in which getting epoch is not a tough work. It seems that it is not a critical matter in software implementation as in protocol concept. Probably, statements in RFC7252 should be clear enough to tell that the CoAP getting DTLS epoch is a cross-layer operation. Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 12:10 PM To: 'weigengyu' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs My intention is to get rid of the requirement since it makes no sense. That is what the message I sent to Carsten was about. What is the best process for doing so. Jim -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:58 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, Thank you for your explainations. > Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate > requirement that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch value. It is really unfortunate requirements that the application protocol is forced to be tied with the lower-layer variable. Is there an intension to creat a cross-layer mechanim? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 11:38 AM To: 'weigengyu' ; 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate requirement that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch value. Without the knowledge that the epoch value has changed this is not enforceable on either end. -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 5:27 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. > From a strictly security point of view there is no reason to do so if, > for example, the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Why the epoch changed event must tell "me", i.e. the upper layer entity? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:45 AM To: 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'weigengyu' ; 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly > security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, > the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I originally thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe that is a correct use of the errata system. It is used for things which are unclear or technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It might be easiest to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of errata that need to be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr眉脽e, Carsten From nobody Wed Jun 7 06:22:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1300812EC25; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 06:22:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WlJHbemM9eME; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 06:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EF3D12946F; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 06:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter9-d.gandi.net (mfilter9-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.138]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8027AA80F5; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:21:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter9-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter9-d.gandi.net (mfilter9-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LwyNnsBYXz-l; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:21:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 192.44.77.204 Received: from el-meco.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (nat-asr-incub-b204.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.204]) (Authenticated sender: ana@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B061A811C; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5A6A0425-F6F3-4A7B-B7EB-1E36D7778DED" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Ana Minaburo In-Reply-To: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:21:48 +0200 Cc: lp-wan , Core Message-Id: <3CE1CCAF-7586-4393-B130-6FA5431A2544@ackl.io> References: <58E6D5AA-1F9D-4455-9D64-C59CCFF5E7B3@ackl.io> To: Alexander Pelov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] [lp-wan] Agenda for LPWAN interim meeting next Wednesday, June 7th X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 13:22:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5A6A0425-F6F3-4A7B-B7EB-1E36D7778DED Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, Here you will find the slides for SCHC Ana --Apple-Mail=_5A6A0425-F6F3-4A7B-B7EB-1E36D7778DED Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=SCHC-compression-7june.pptx Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.presentationml.presentation; name="SCHC-compression-7june.pptx" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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dC9tZWRpYS9pbWFnZTEucG5nUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAHBnQ7NbBgAA6B0AABQAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAVLkAAHBwdC90aGVtZS90aGVtZTMueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAHBnQ7NbBgAA6B0AABQA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA4b8AAHBwdC90aGVtZS90aGVtZTIueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAEaaOLfF AQAA/AMAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbsYAAHBwdC9wcmVzUHJvcHMueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAh ALEhdQmuAQAAlgMAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYsgAAHBwdC92aWV3UHJvcHMueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAG AAgAAAAhAFLDiRWaBgAAuGIAABMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP8oAAHBwdC90YWJsZVN0eWxlcy54bWxQ SwECLQAUAAYACAAAACEAnAPbNnoBAAC4AgAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAK0QAAZG9jUHJvcHMvY29y ZS54bWxQSwECLQAUAAYACAAAACEAuR/OeH8CAADQBQAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC70wAAZG9jUHJv cHMvYXBwLnhtbFBLBQYAAAAAIAAgAEMJAABw1wAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_5A6A0425-F6F3-4A7B-B7EB-1E36D7778DED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 31 May 2017, at 19:04, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > You=E2=80=99ll find the updated agenda at the following address: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-interim-2017-lpwan-04-lpwan-01/ >=20 > We=E2=80=99re nearing the finalization of the LPWAN Overview and the = IP/UDP SCHC document. >=20 > The CoAP SCHC document is also on track to be completed in the = following month. (thus CCing CORE) >=20 > Best, > The Chairs of LPWAN=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail=_5A6A0425-F6F3-4A7B-B7EB-1E36D7778DED-- From nobody Wed Jun 7 16:11:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A44F1270B4 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JdG4QiuXpSF0 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it-ipcorp-01.silverspringnet.com (it-ipcorp-01.silverspringnet.com [74.121.22.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919221293E9 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2CqAQC/hjhZ/3MMOQpeHQEFAQsBgxABgj2OBJV+kWyCEIlSGAECAQEBAQEBAWsdC4YqASk0IycEij+xWYwxhmGPXQWQeo0/gV2RW4FuAZARlGcfOIEKMCEIGxWEfQEKAQEBgkOJaoENAQEB X-IPAS-Result: A2CqAQC/hjhZ/3MMOQpeHQEFAQsBgxABgj2OBJV+kWyCEIlSGAECAQEBAQEBAWsdC4YqASk0IycEij+xWYwxhmGPXQWQeo0/gV2RW4FuAZARlGcfOIEKMCEIGxWEfQEKAQEBgkOJaoENAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.39,312,1493708400"; d="scan'208";a="49654708" Received: from sfo-barrlb-01.silverspringnet.com (HELO mail.silverspringnet.com) ([10.57.12.115]) by it-ipcorp-01.silverspringnet.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 07 Jun 2017 16:11:22 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:ad41:c0b5:cbaf:e1d9) by sfo-ex13-01.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:5012:7970:8142:b39b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:11:20 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa]) by sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa%14]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:11:20 -0700 From: Benjamin Damm To: "core@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Directing responses to a broker Thread-Index: AQHS3+CzgXlJPX/oy06ER4Nc6m2Tvg== Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 23:11:19 +0000 Message-ID: <1496877079259.4240@ssni.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.57.12.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Directing responses to a broker X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 23:11:23 -0000 Core,=0A= =0A= We have a scenario where we want to support CoAP Observes and we also want = to optionally flag that responses should not come back to the initiator, bu= t rather go to a broker instead. Have there been any proposals for an exten= sion to indicate this?=0A= =0A= Thanks,=0A= -Ben=0A= From nobody Wed Jun 7 16:14:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747921293E9 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kmp15GYDsuff for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it-ipdr-01.silverspringnet.com (it-ipdr-01.silverspringnet.com [74.121.22.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85541126D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2DvBACdiDhZ/3MMOQpeHAEBBAEBCgEBgxABgj2DbIJMnUYBA5N8hkCDKgECAQEBAQECax0LhUIRVwEiAgUhAgQNIxUSBIo/rziCJowxgQuFVolUgyiCYQWeOZM4gW6QEpRnV4EKMCEIGxWEfQwBgkSJaoENAQEB X-IPAS-Result: A2DvBACdiDhZ/3MMOQpeHAEBBAEBCgEBgxABgj2DbIJMnUYBA5N8hkCDKgECAQEBAQECax0LhUIRVwEiAgUhAgQNIxUSBIo/rziCJowxgQuFVolUgyiCYQWeOZM4gW6QEpRnV4EKMCEIGxWEfQwBgkSJaoENAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.39,312,1493708400"; d="scan'208";a="6192742" Received: from sfo-barrlb-01.silverspringnet.com (HELO mail.silverspringnet.com) ([10.57.12.115]) by it-ipdr-01.silverspringnet.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 07 Jun 2017 16:14:17 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:ad41:c0b5:cbaf:e1d9) by sfo-ex13-01.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:5012:7970:8142:b39b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:14:16 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa]) by sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa%14]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:14:16 -0700 From: Benjamin Damm To: "core@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Indicating Location in Observe responses Thread-Index: AQHS3+OD7VJ2z4kq/kiume/oWofFJA== Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 23:14:15 +0000 Message-ID: <1496877255394.63149@ssni.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.57.12.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Indicating Location in Observe responses X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 23:14:45 -0000 4oCLQ29yZSwKCldlIHdpc2ggdG8gYXNzZXJ0IGEgQ29BUCBPYnNlcnZlIG9uIGEgcmVzb3VyY2Ug b24gYSBzZXJ2ZXIsIGFuZCBoYXZlIHRoZSBzZXJ2ZXIgcmV0dXJuIG9ic2VydmF0aW9ucyBub3Qg b25seSBmb3IgdGhlIHNwZWNpZmljIHJlc291cmNlIGJ1dCBmb3IgYW55IHN1Yi1wYXRoIG9mIHRo YXQgcmVzb3VyY2UuCgpTbyBpZiB0aGUgb2JzZXJ2ZSBpcyBvbiAvYSB0aGUgb2JzZXJ2ZSByZXNw b25zZSBtaWdodCBiZSBmb3IgL2EveCBvciAvYS96LgoKSXMgdGhlcmUgYW55IGFncmVlZCBzZW1h bnRpYyBmb3IgaG93IHRvIGV4cHJlc3MgdGhlIHJlc3VsdGluZyBMb2NhdGlvbiBvciBQYXRoPyBC b3RoIFVSSS1QYXRoIGFuZCBMb2NhdGlvbi1QYXRoIHNlZW0gdW5hdmFpbGFibGUgZm9yIHRoaXMg cHVycG9zZSBkdWUgdG8gdGhlIFJGQydzIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgaG93IHRoZXNlIGFyZSB0 byBiZSB1c2VkLgoKVGhhbmtzLAotQmVu From nobody Wed Jun 7 16:42:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25628128CD5 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:42:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uxe6_16H6Tur for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prometheus.amsuess.com (alt.prometheus.amsuess.com [IPv6:2a01:4f8:190:3064::3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EB7C131496 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bd]) by prometheus.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AA2146FEC; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:42:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com [10.13.13.231]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD52236; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:42:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (hermes.amsuess.com [10.13.13.254]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78BF63A6; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:42:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26040 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 07 Jun 2017 23:42:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:42:25 +0200 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: Benjamin Damm Cc: "core@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170607234225.ncgvyu7rb32m2plg@hephaistos.amsuess.com> References: <1496877079259.4240@ssni.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lchvxd3ufe76tjck" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1496877079259.4240@ssni.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170306 (1.8.0) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Directing responses to a broker X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 23:42:36 -0000 --lchvxd3ufe76tjck Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ben, On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 11:11:19PM +0000, Benjamin Damm wrote: > We have a scenario where we want to support CoAP Observes and we also > want to optionally flag that responses should not come back to the > initiator, but rather go to a broker instead. Have there been any > proposals for an extension to indicate this? This sounds a lot like what Zhen Cao has suggested in [delegated-observe]. I think such a setup -- if you indeed think what Zhen wrote -- is too brittle to be practical, and [suggested] alternatives I'd consider more reliable. The discussion on delegated-observe became quiet, but please have a look and let's continue it. Best regards Christian [delegated-observe]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cao-core-delegated-o= bserve-00 [suggested]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/sSRxmiXgfHrnDbrKRyv= nQ5QIJCo --=20 Christian Ams=FCss | Energy Harvesting Solutions GmbH founder, system architect | headquarter: mailto:c.amsuess@energyharvesting.at | Arbeitergasse 15, A-4400 Steyr tel:+43-664-97-90-6-39 | http://www.energyharvesting.at/ | ATU68476614 --lchvxd3ufe76tjck Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAlk4j1sACgkQOY0REtOk veH6ERAA0QkSRF7uXq+30wWeUwHWAo1ElEL9tnYLfnDNHY+LPKMRgHOd1X1vga26 PQFZZJrg9lvOtfR927UKcbVYKqn/PD6UdeK6KSQ0oHCTYcX+bRakMEWli6aMnjrP O7I2X9iJuh3M6XpfFwb85OOBVP/La3hzKcNnzpjXkCDNcMMqlZbDQpKZIvP8Isnl OMG88E5qTY747JoMPMF6lSBr174+6M9QYQLakID9jgk+u9CE4ta7qpp+mIYoEiY8 m+aQK15wRfFqWZ+YnmcV5mYhr6khPevtnWmfNxu3Kmu8gI8zD9idxlTKc/B+vSuZ BOrHx0eEKhelNYeJ0jbyXc51xE/zXwjkmEhZssSjPCvqDOU3UvV/zsZOVbrHcguS h5DU84PnGv8fZ9GTqLOvSoW1EUi+UGxs4bwN/CTXUHNqeSodKi0cIlYQHmIhNTP7 ePDaDalDTYJYWv7r0AtQbxL6ge/LyoG0YZc7ngw+WuJ1XREVhb0J1KiOO5Z6BnbG qDWrs15SrEwYa0+MUxwSVl6DH496G/5yjzFt9ABdbIJBsoO+6llluZvoqS5e9djZ Yz1oBOA1w3ty7vPFTh9iNrwKgBisgnjIJcrVTgsrSjCRPLWKSgvpmBuX/T/qSAsJ 3D6GVeTLLpOJnmllqetaXj7t8oMR+X9/TU5TrtWhqj15FX0O6EI= =3R4s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lchvxd3ufe76tjck-- From nobody Wed Jun 7 23:08:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2A0129B71 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 23:08:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H7cQVvpMXHXd for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 23:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05939120726 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 23:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5867mf7027231; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:07:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from client-0017.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0017.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wjw2D1sHZz3Yvc; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:07:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1496877255394.63149@ssni.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:07:47 +0200 Cc: "core@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 518594867.380299-91283a3a00794a016c8b1a863f5f0d46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1496877255394.63149@ssni.com> To: Benjamin Damm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Indicating Location in Observe responses X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 06:08:04 -0000 Hi Benjamin, I think this is a special case of a more general idea to allow a server = to send a patch payload with an observe notification. Obviously, your special case would have the advantage of being = idempotent (at least to itself; see below). I believe that the right way to approach those partial updates is to = think about their payloads as specific media types (typically carrying = other media types inside them). It probably would make sense to to = define a CBOR-based media type for subtrees or combinations of subtrees, = also for FETCH observes. However, one problem that we need to address is what you do when one = notification overtakes another. If I get a notification after a GET /a with Observe serial 5, and then = one with 4, I know I can discard the latter. Now what exactly would it mean if I get a notification for /a/b/c with = serial 5, and then one for /a/b with serial 4? I do believe these problems can be solved, but it probably requires some = more thinking. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Jun 8, 2017, at 01:14, Benjamin Damm wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=8BCore, >=20 > We wish to assert a CoAP Observe on a resource on a server, and have = the server return observations not only for the specific resource but = for any sub-path of that resource. >=20 > So if the observe is on /a the observe response might be for /a/x or = /a/z. >=20 > Is there any agreed semantic for how to express the resulting Location = or Path? Both URI-Path and Location-Path seem unavailable for this = purpose due to the RFC's specification of how these are to be used. >=20 > Thanks, > -Ben > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Jun 8 01:18:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90994129BD1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:18:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wugfdk4eunzL for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp6-v.fe.bosch.de (smtp6-v.fe.bosch.de [IPv6:2a03:cc00:ff0:100::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 089B8129C32 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 01:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vsmta11.fe.internet.bosch.com (unknown [10.4.98.51]) by imta23.fe.bosch.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727441580201; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:17:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from SI-MBX1028.de.bosch.com (vsgw23.fe.internet.bosch.com [10.4.98.23]) by vsmta11.fe.internet.bosch.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684652380944; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:17:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com (10.3.230.85) by SI-MBX1028.de.bosch.com (10.3.230.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1236.3; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:17:34 +0200 Received: from FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com ([fe80::e193:5977:194:af]) by FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com ([fe80::e193:5977:194:af%16]) with mapi id 15.00.1236.000; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:17:33 +0200 From: "Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)" To: weigengyu CC: "core@ietf.org" , 'Klaus Hartke' , "Jim Schaad" Thread-Topic: [core] DTLS and Epochs Thread-Index: AQHSzXPbHVde14BAB0WFCGPhUaPN+AHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+gECJzwEAn/HMtwCQrMlzAJeyvcCAqXT4VwCCbk/56OJLfCA/frHpYCABJf7kA== Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:17:33 +0000 Message-ID: <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> In-Reply-To: <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.22.84.74] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-23116.005 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO04HKI/yaqRmxD3+0w1DhqKc3ewuwbSaG6rzPs85fwUk+cS ndlMmP/WzQCEFcQpqpilL/C3qPNuFgMWCgdCzp+alUgQqGVMqmw026H7nOZLr7v408/GP5HqrRG iaFY8lpAAOBM0EVj0IJY8j/IRfKmllKHFFpLwOfUBrFUZ8kABvPioIsi7Sa0gsneuamRRT5NjCp cZlQU+GdIuNVPpeCSIT6k/8c2xiX1kxYpcxgXUcdD3C6F7IetUzwHystluG2XjAImgEYtQyJOQy ++rdjlfFMgOmc67ro4wn9g3uUMn09GUhjH1DfU2NDFopLoM9OJgp5U7towQc7KeTtOdjMy6Yyzk aNcuq8ZMZ80PgxeP770kA45uouM5NBiuKpymXA1buDP8ZuCmXr4kZYg1dp8sVzOmd/bB9b4z+zk qltke7MkKJt8P7uVxswGU/VkpOs+s/r1De3um7vI2836jbv0EKHiaK9sPBKAwplGJ7NxS0xZ68y UnXFgfc8/zaBW67tTKOr+TkY7j/jdWZgGN+S3XnBQIH/Sy5SC4RgMpr9MaPlvvN5s+yN4xWSx3v OG8/B0/xgfuoiQA+euE2+PTEY9BnGMHPMSqYVUuLk8NfSpYeiGcAX6p9HVmDO+DX+rUwfYIrIwt 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aWVzdCANCnRvIGp1c3QgZG8gYSBkZWx0YSBSRkMgdW5sZXNzIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgZ29vZCBudW1i ZXIgb2YgZXJyYXRhIHRoYXQgbmVlZCB0byANCmJlIHJvbGxlZCBpbnRvIGFuIHVwZGF0ZWQgZG9j dW1lbnQuDQoNCkppbQ0KDQoNCkdyw7zDn2UsIENhcnN0ZW4NCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KY29yZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN CmNvcmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY29y ZQ0K From nobody Thu Jun 8 02:08:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C544129C70 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkCv_YNJHmKI for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81577129C5C for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5898as0018790; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 11:08:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from client-0010.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0010.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wk02r389vz3Z1F; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 11:08:36 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 11:08:35 +0200 Cc: "core@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 518605715.71506-7a9bf6f94800478af485e473a50229ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> To: "Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 09:08:43 -0000 On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) = wrote: >=20 > It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same = epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. =20 >=20 > I pointed to that last summer = (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but = I could get clarification on that. I think that we can agree that the current definition is =E2=80=94 not fully clear =E2=80=94 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may = not actually be implemented) =E2=80=94 unnecessarily restrictive. Now the next question is what definition would =E2=80=94 make sense from an implementers=E2=80=99 point of view =E2=80=94 not be unnecessarily restrictive =E2=80=94 retain the desirable security properties of the current = restrictive definition - be clear - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn=E2=80=99t fully baked = yet). (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it =E2=80=94 that = is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me = made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 8 10:16:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B26129440 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YR70ePZSjKzi for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prometheus.amsuess.com (prometheus.amsuess.com [5.9.147.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE9841293D9 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (095129206250.cust.akis.net [95.129.206.250]) by prometheus.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 421A3471DF for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:16:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com [10.13.13.231]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466D636 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:16:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (hermes.amsuess.com [10.13.13.254]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19806389 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:16:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 8171 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 08 Jun 2017 17:16:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:16:22 +0200 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170608171622.ahh5gxh7bhsxzqwf@hephaistos.amsuess.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="njnn7v2ljapi5ztu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170306 (1.8.0) Archived-At: Subject: [core] resource-directory must implement lookup interface X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 17:16:28 -0000 --njnn7v2ljapi5ztu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello CoRE working group, in the development of the resource-directory draft, it is the authors' opinion that contrary to previous drafts, the lookup should not be an optional interface. Both "sides" of the resource directory are designed to be usable by constrained devices, are essential components of the RD when constrained nodes are supposed to interact with each other. Leaving lookup optional would lead to incompatibility between constrained nodes. Note that this would not mandate that all the information in the RD must actually be exposed; the lookup interface can (and actually SHOULD) be subject to access restrictions up to the extent of always presenting emtpy results to requesters. Please let us know if you know of good reasons not to do this change. Best regards Christian --=20 Christian Ams=FCss | Energy Harvesting Solutions GmbH founder, system architect | headquarter: mailto:c.amsuess@energyharvesting.at | Arbeitergasse 15, A-4400 Steyr tel:+43-664-97-90-6-39 | http://www.energyharvesting.at/ | ATU68476614 --njnn7v2ljapi5ztu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAlk5hmEACgkQOY0REtOk veGgOBAAklaxNKsTNli79oFoL+smA6Jje2BHrfFT0GzjBj90BXDvp7OPaClfh6oG 8nLuiZH5cOS+TLM9JtMePmgZ+nAMWRdlesM+9F9GLlAW1rFhzRZsLVJqbPKXbc7k hwdE4XSRqyJh/88jaurXR01iMbySg2vpjYzxeiRQRF2uK9wWi0aBFLYHy2eSYbyF zoOEpwBzuktY+e2TwF5H1q3VBIysrxALn5EAFv+kpaECX5u3ARcK8wo/3dGIiwj1 +DP9NuTRlgLSDW2ISDpGWqMMJ2RePbOap0Ntx6cbomyGkcg34Y/b4ogtD5tig0/U HO6HLyotlOhBDGzAJ8b1K/mg1dMLTneatp3cxynA6BWTb3yuyJSfdewxwXDmeLZP /6silG5vhnKYtdkXGjpxDK4HGFaKRxHYeRZuuzzLKyemuTY6I3AreeQo9zjTchF7 cJaUWrvGgcX/BQ/1eJPh1Fm5MX90ihEu71h6X0TW55fxpKnYfMMxOJBmWmoYypHd EW3U79uRPhB6fGdfEtxw8+fgwEDRWbjpCfnWHo3VEiJpbh5hMr6s8BIW6LbSLCTP XckZIYzXUWF7dXBg+ZQShRl6mFpWTvmqJsjUnN4GF0xAXodg94Rfy1xUVxJb9jC7 quLAjvnlc4k9+/sYQdVy7VAi4NJ/y26u60xUHy5BfzXY/mf/w/4= =vkmE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --njnn7v2ljapi5ztu-- From nobody Thu Jun 8 10:22:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5D0129A90 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="6196406" Received: from sfo-barrlb-01.silverspringnet.com (HELO mail.silverspringnet.com) ([10.57.12.115]) by it-ipdr-01.silverspringnet.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 08 Jun 2017 10:22:50 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:ad41:c0b5:cbaf:e1d9) by sfo-ex13-02.silverspringnet.com (fdc2:c2cd:d343:390c:6976:c2e0:eaf2:8ec8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:22:49 -0700 Received: from sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa]) by sfo-ex13-04.silverspringnet.com ([fe80::9029:bd6b:1ebf:9baa%14]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 10:22:49 -0700 From: Benjamin Damm To: Carsten Bormann CC: "core@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [core] Indicating Location in Observe responses Thread-Index: AQHS3+OD7VJ2z4kq/kiume/oWofFJKIa8KuAgAA+BVI= Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 17:22:49 +0000 Message-ID: <1496942569068.36649@ssni.com> References: <1496877255394.63149@ssni.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.57.12.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Indicating Location in Observe responses X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 17:22:53 -0000 SW4gb3VyIGNhc2UgaXQncyBtb3JlIGFib3V0IGxldHRpbmcgdGhlIHNlcnZlciBkZWNpZGUgd2hh dCBpdCB3YW50cyB0byBuYW1lIHRoZSByZXNvdXJjZXMsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIHRoZSBjbGllbnQg a25vd2luZyB0aGVtIGFsbCBpbiBhZHZhbmNlLiBXZSBjb3VsZCBsaXN0IHRoZW0gaW4gLndlbGwt a25vd24vY29yZSBidXQgdGhhdCBtZWFucyBtYWludGFpbmluZyBvYnNlcnZhdGlvbnMgb24gYSBj b2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIFVSTHMsIG9uIGEgZGV2aWNlIGZvciB3aGljaCByZXRhaW5pbmcgc3RhdGUg b24gZXZlbiBvbmUgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24gaXMgYSBjaGFsbGVuZ2UuCgoKQmVuamFtaW4gRGFtbQpQ bGF0Zm9ybSBBcmNoaXRlY3QKTzogNjY5LTc3MC00MDAwCkU6IGJkYW1tQHNzbmkuY29tICB3d3cu c3NuaS5jb20KCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkZyb206 IENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiA8Y2Fib0B0emkub3JnPgpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bmUgNywg MjAxNyAxMTowNyBQTQpUbzogQmVuamFtaW4gRGFtbQpDYzogY29yZUBpZXRmLm9yZwpTdWJqZWN0 OiBSZTogW2NvcmVdIEluZGljYXRpbmcgTG9jYXRpb24gaW4gT2JzZXJ2ZSByZXNwb25zZXMKCkhp IEJlbmphbWluLAoKSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIGEgc3BlY2lhbCBjYXNlIG9mIGEgbW9yZSBnZW5l cmFsIGlkZWEgdG8gYWxsb3cgYSBzZXJ2ZXIgdG8gc2VuZCBhIHBhdGNoIHBheWxvYWQgd2l0aCBh biBvYnNlcnZlIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbi4KT2J2aW91c2x5LCB5b3VyIHNwZWNpYWwgY2FzZSB3b3Vs ZCBoYXZlIHRoZSBhZHZhbnRhZ2Ugb2YgYmVpbmcgaWRlbXBvdGVudCAoYXQgbGVhc3QgdG8gaXRz ZWxmOyBzZWUgYmVsb3cpLgoKSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IHdheSB0byBhcHByb2Fj aCB0aG9zZSBwYXJ0aWFsIHVwZGF0ZXMgaXMgdG8gdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQgdGhlaXIgcGF5bG9hZHMg YXMgc3BlY2lmaWMgbWVkaWEgdHlwZXMgKHR5cGljYWxseSBjYXJyeWluZyBvdGhlciBtZWRpYSB0 eXBlcyBpbnNpZGUgdGhlbSkuICBJdCBwcm9iYWJseSB3b3VsZCBtYWtlIHNlbnNlIHRvIHRvIGRl ZmluZSBhIENCT1ItYmFzZWQgbWVkaWEgdHlwZSBmb3Igc3VidHJlZXMgb3IgY29tYmluYXRpb25z IG9mIHN1YnRyZWVzLCBhbHNvIGZvciBGRVRDSCBvYnNlcnZlcy4KCkhvd2V2ZXIsIG9uZSBwcm9i bGVtIHRoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBhZGRyZXNzIGlzIHdoYXQgeW91IGRvIHdoZW4gb25lIG5vdGlm aWNhdGlvbiBvdmVydGFrZXMgYW5vdGhlci4KCklmIEkgZ2V0IGEgbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGFmdGVy IGEgR0VUIC9hIHdpdGggT2JzZXJ2ZSBzZXJpYWwgNSwgYW5kIHRoZW4gb25lIHdpdGggNCwgSSBr bm93IEkgY2FuIGRpc2NhcmQgdGhlIGxhdHRlci4KCk5vdyB3aGF0IGV4YWN0bHkgd291bGQgaXQg bWVhbiBpZiBJIGdldCBhIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgL2EvYi9jIHdpdGggc2VyaWFsIDUsIGFu ZCB0aGVuIG9uZSBmb3IgL2EvYiB3aXRoIHNlcmlhbCA0PwoKSSBkbyBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZXNlIHBy b2JsZW1zIGNhbiBiZSBzb2x2ZWQsIGJ1dCBpdCBwcm9iYWJseSByZXF1aXJlcyBzb21lIG1vcmUg dGhpbmtpbmcuCgpHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuCgoKPiBPbiBKdW4gOCwgMjAxNywgYXQgMDE6MTQs IEJlbmphbWluIERhbW0gPGJkYW1tQHNzbmkuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+IOKAi0NvcmUsCj4KPiBX ZSB3aXNoIHRvIGFzc2VydCBhIENvQVAgT2JzZXJ2ZSBvbiBhIHJlc291cmNlIG9uIGEgc2VydmVy LCBhbmQgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2VydmVyIHJldHVybiBvYnNlcnZhdGlvbnMgbm90IG9ubHkgZm9yIHRo ZSBzcGVjaWZpYyByZXNvdXJjZSBidXQgZm9yIGFueSBzdWItcGF0aCBvZiB0aGF0IHJlc291cmNl Lgo+Cj4gU28gaWYgdGhlIG9ic2VydmUgaXMgb24gL2EgdGhlIG9ic2VydmUgcmVzcG9uc2UgbWln aHQgYmUgZm9yIC9hL3ggb3IgL2Evei4KPgo+IElzIHRoZXJlIGFueSBhZ3JlZWQgc2VtYW50aWMg Zm9yIGhvdyB0byBleHByZXNzIHRoZSByZXN1bHRpbmcgTG9jYXRpb24gb3IgUGF0aD8gQm90aCBV UkktUGF0aCBhbmQgTG9jYXRpb24tUGF0aCBzZWVtIHVuYXZhaWxhYmxlIGZvciB0aGlzIHB1cnBv c2UgZHVlIHRvIHRoZSBSRkMncyBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIG9mIGhvdyB0aGVzZSBhcmUgdG8gYmUg dXNlZC4KPgo+IFRoYW5rcywKPiAtQmVuCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPiBjb3JlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+IGNvcmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKPiBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NvcmUKPgo+Cgo= From nobody Thu Jun 8 13:13:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37DC127698 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1496952777; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=X6NAOBik7QWHbQMAh9jQsoHetiXIYAJtMG5pxAo/+u8=; b=iUVJZH92AZx0fx63L3NSt6gqamJhMY80DqNUFtCxvvHrZxPEomEzYFLMeIU1TumOhpSsZukvwrZ mAZPOOWCsylHRiNyhDeMGnWqLQBE9lqmu9OIOGPGwF5kFlWaXOE+2nYs3RuiY7hXyp+uHMcUNZM4p d1dmrI6SrrDlFhipYjvn3IzwonvLY65xBStBATwaJpeSUbvA+y3QEW+yshbzA3NOV9Naje+IA2K4T K/c9iv0bIb3EZztFSTN6gnYB25aCGzUxG2y/OVJOZTVwrlxaq7soCNQ9KQLkd1lmgk3EiXbOhpWl4 xuKbjhEu/NHlignMXt31gKxTQ5nZacg0r9zw== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:12:56 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (24.21.96.37) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:12:53 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: "'Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)'" , 'weigengyu' CC: , 'Klaus Hartke' References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> In-Reply-To: <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <03a301d2e093$9ce2cf90$d6a86eb0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDNpaiTKhTjOCugYu4GMFgItWlKOAHYofZfATwV17wCXqj8+gECJzwEAn/HMtwCQrMlzAJeyvcCAqXT4VwCCbk/5wJGr66GAoi8hSgBudPu9aNfWrcg X-Originating-IP: [24.21.96.37] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 20:13:05 -0000 Both your message and the one from Hannes that you referred to bring up = some rather interesting questions. >From my original reading of the CoAP documents, I would say that a = resumption establishes both a new session and a new epoch. The keys are = different and thus it is not the same epoch. One of the potential = problems is that you can resume a new session but keep the current = session so it gets slightly ambiguous about what should be done. The idea of doing a resumption to a different address and expecting = things to be the same is a very strange, but possibly correct idea. I = would agree that if you do a resumption then an Observe relationship = really should be preserved. This might imply information that needs to = be placed in resumption tickets but I would need to sit down and spend = some time doing thought and design before I would be willing to commit = to such an approach. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) [mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:18 AM To: weigengyu Cc: core@ietf.org; 'Klaus Hartke' ; Jim Schaad = Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi all, > Reviewing Cf. CoAP's source code, it becomes clear that the CoAP = entity would read the DTLS epoch when it starts sending messages. Scandium (java DTLS implementation, subproject in californium, java CoAP = implementation) was implemented to be used for CoAP, therefore it was = extended to check the epoch. But, if the (D)TLS implementation doesn't = provide this information, you can't check it. That's the issue others = got aware. And there is still a pitfall: you can only check the epoch number! So = currently, if an initial DTLS handshake is finished you get a session ID = (say S12345), a selected ciphersuite (say CS_XYZ), and the epoch (with = number 1). A new handshake would get a new session ID (S6789) and could = be detected. But for a resuming handshake, this will end-up in the same = session ID and same epoch-number.=20 It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same = epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. =20 I pointed to that last summer = (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but = I could get clarification on that. Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen / Best regards Achim Kraus (INST/ECS4)=20 Bosch Software Innovations GmbH | Stuttgarter Stra=C3=9Fe 130 | 71332 = Waiblingen | GERMANY | www.bosch-si.com Sitz: Berlin, Registergericht: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg; HRB 148411 B=20 Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrung: Dr.-Ing. Rainer Kallenbach, Michael Hahn=20 -----Original Message----- From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of weigengyu Sent: Montag, 5. Juni 2017 13:54 To: Jim Schaad Cc: core@ietf.org; 'Klaus Hartke' Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, I present our opinions about epoch changes. In weekend we (my studens: Mr. Haihai REN and Jiantong LI) reviewed the = source code of Cf. CoAP and RFC7252 9.1. Based on the text of RFC7252 and the layered protocol concepts, it may = be a problem to tie the CoAP message with DTLS epoch, as you pointed. It may be a problem how the CoAP entity knows the DTLS epoch changes. But, such a problem has never be happened in our previous works. Why? Reviewing Cf. CoAP's source code, it becomes clear that the CoAP entity = would read the DTLS epoch when it starts sending messages. In this specific implementation, the CoAP entity has the ability to read = DTLS epoch of another object which is a variable of another layer in = protocol concepts. In Cf.CoAP source code, when the CoAP entity needs to send messages, it = invokes the DTLS entity to work, i.e. to do server and client = authentifications; then the client sends ChangeChipherSpec, and server' = Finish, the DTLS's epoch change. Actually the epoch is plus one. Then the CoAP entity would get DTLS epoch and begin to send CoAP = messages over DTLS Record. It is clear that the CoAP entity could get the new epoch in Cf. CoAP. It is known that Cf. CoAP is a specific implementation in which getting = epoch is not a tough work. It seems that it is not a critical matter in software implementation as = in protocol concept. Probably, statements in RFC7252 should be clear enough to tell that the = CoAP getting DTLS epoch is a cross-layer operation. Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 12:10 PM To: 'weigengyu' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs My intention is to get rid of the requirement since it makes no sense. = That=20 is what the message I sent to Carsten was about. What is the best = process=20 for doing so. Jim -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:58 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' = Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi Jim, Thank you for your explainations. > Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate > requirement that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch = value. It is really unfortunate requirements that the application protocol is=20 forced to be tied with the lower-layer variable. Is there an intension to creat a cross-layer mechanim? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 11:38 AM To: 'weigengyu' ; 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs Section 9.1.1 of RFC 7252 in paragraph 2 has the unfortunate requirement = that all messages MUST be responded to using the epoch value. Without = the=20 knowledge that the epoch value has changed this is not enforceable on = either=20 end. -----Original Message----- From: weigengyu [mailto:weigengyu@bupt.edu.cn] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 5:27 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Carsten Bormann' = Cc: 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. > From a strictly security point of view there is no reason to do so if, > for example, the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Why the epoch changed event must tell "me", i.e. the upper layer entity? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6----- From: Jim Schaad Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:45 AM To: 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: 'weigengyu' ; 'Klaus Hartke' ; core@ietf.org Subject: RE: [core] DTLS and Epochs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:36 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: weigengyu ; Klaus Hartke ;=20 core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 1, 2017, at 18:10, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Please note - I did not say that the epoch was not changed, I said > that it does not tell me that the epoch has changed. From a strictly > security point of view there is no reason to do so if, for example, > the epoch changed just because the key was rolled over. Right, and the question for me is: How do we get from the overly=20 restrictive spec in 7252 to something that is still secure and can be=20 supported by TLS libraries that are out there. [JLS] I believe that the only way is to do an update to 7252. I = originally=20 thought that I would file an errata, but I do not believe that is a = correct=20 use of the errata system. It is used for things which are unclear or=20 technically wrong. This is not wrong, just misguided. It might be = easiest=20 to just do a delta RFC unless there is a good number of errata that need = to=20 be rolled into an updated document. Jim Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Fri Jun 9 03:35:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1F412956D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 03:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZ-ImTTderN7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 03:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 15.mo7.mail-out.ovh.net (15.mo7.mail-out.ovh.net [87.98.180.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1FB5129584 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 03:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from player697.ha.ovh.net (b9.ovh.net [213.186.33.59]) by mo7.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5828599B9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 12:35:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.41.51.97] (130.163-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com [84.14.163.130]) (Authenticated sender: contact@simonbernard.eu) by player697.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BDD74800A5; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 12:35:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Simon Bernard To: Carsten Bormann , "Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)" References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> Cc: "core@ietf.org" Message-ID: <88a7de1d-f9fe-3743-a58c-5cdd5ad7b82a@simonbernard.eu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 12:35:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E8B29D88A34BD0ADB4C44018" X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 8783426650446313639 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeeljedrieehgddvjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 10:35:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E8B29D88A34BD0ADB4C44018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in a LWM2M context. My understanding is "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no TLS renegociation". IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 last time I looked at it. I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can be generalized to all request/response correlation. Here some discussion about this idea : - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html Simon Le 08/06/2017 脿 11:08, Carsten Bormann a 茅crit : > On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) wrote: >> It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. >> >> I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but I could get clarification on that. > I think that we can agree that the current definition is > 鈥 not fully clear > 鈥 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may not actually be implemented) > 鈥 unnecessarily restrictive. > > Now the next question is what definition would > 鈥 make sense from an implementers鈥 point of view > 鈥 not be unnecessarily restrictive > 鈥 retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition > - be clear > - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn鈥檛 fully baked yet). > > (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it 鈥 that is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) > > Gr眉脽e, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core --------------E8B29D88A34BD0ADB4C44018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi,

聽 We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in a LWM2M context.

聽 My understanding is聽 "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no TLS renegociation".

聽 IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 last time I looked at it.

聽 I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can be generalized to all request/response correlation.

聽 Here some discussion about this idea :
聽聽聽聽 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html
聽聽聽聽 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html

Simon

Le 08/06/2017 脿 11:08, Carsten Bormann a 茅crit聽:
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) <Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com> wrote:

It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252.   

I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but I could get clarification on that.

I think that we can agree that the current definition is
鈥 not fully clear
鈥 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may not actually be implemented)
鈥 unnecessarily restrictive.

Now the next question is what definition would
鈥 make sense from an implementers鈥 point of view
鈥 not be unnecessarily restrictive
鈥 retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition
- be clear
- maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn鈥檛 fully baked yet).

(And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it 鈥 that is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me made.  E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.)

Gr眉脽e, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

--------------E8B29D88A34BD0ADB4C44018-- From nobody Fri Jun 9 09:24:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C389128DE5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:24:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Jt_QieNL3mp for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-48.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-62.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.62]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C5A0C124234 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([114.246.137.206]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 10 Jun 2017 00:23:49 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 54642567436 Message-ID: From: "weigengyu" To: "Simon Bernard" , "Carsten Bormann" , "Kraus Achim \(INST/ECS4\)" Cc: References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> <88a7de1d-f9fe-3743-a58c-5cdd5ad7b82a@simonbernard.eu> In-Reply-To: <88a7de1d-f9fe-3743-a58c-5cdd5ad7b82a@simonbernard.eu> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 00:23:49 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0105_01D2E17F.D4FB9780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:24:04 -0000 这是一封 MIME 格式的多方邮件。 ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01D2E17F.D4FB9780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie:=20 Cookie =3D HMAC(Secret, Client-IP, Client-Parameters) Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS = handshakes.=20 If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the handshake = will not continue. =20 Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP address. If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a = successfule handshake,=20 the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to belong = to a different DTLS association.=20 In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record would = be regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to RFC6347.=20 So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS = association must be establishied.=20 Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer=20 Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications From: Simon Bernard=20 Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM To: Carsten Bormann ; Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)=20 Cc: core@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in a = LWM2M context. My understanding is "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS = connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment = (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no = TLS renegociation". IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" = (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for = authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you = want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But = TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 = last time I looked at it. I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can be = generalized to all request/response correlation. Here some discussion about this idea : - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html Simon Le 08/06/2017 =C3=A0 11:08, Carsten Bormann a =C3=A9crit : On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) = mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com wrote: It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same = epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. =20 I pointed to that last summer = (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but = I could get clarification on that. I think that we can agree that the current definition is =E2=80=94 not fully clear =E2=80=94 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may = not actually be implemented) =E2=80=94 unnecessarily restrictive. Now the next question is what definition would =E2=80=94 make sense from an implementers=E2=80=99 point of view =E2=80=94 not be unnecessarily restrictive =E2=80=94 retain the desirable security properties of the current = restrictive definition - be clear - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn=E2=80=99t fully baked = yet). (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it =E2=80=94 that = is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me = made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01D2E17F.D4FB9780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
 
In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie:
      Cookie =3D HMAC(Secret, Client-IP,=20 Client-Parameters)
Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS = handshakes.=20
 
If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the = handshake=20 will not continue. 
Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP = address.
 
If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a=20 successfule handshake,
the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to = belong to a=20 different DTLS association.
In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record = would be=20 regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to RFC6347.
 
So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS = association=20 must be establishied.
 
 
Regards,
 
Gengyu WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer =
Beijing=20 University of Posts and Telecommunications
 
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs
 

Hi,

  We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind = NAT in a=20 LWM2M context.

  My understanding is  "same epoch" means implicitly "same = DTLS=20 connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment = (as DTLS=20 connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no TLS=20 renegociation".

  IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same = identity"=20 (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for = authenticated=20 peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you want to allow = TLS=20 renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But TLS renegotiation = seems to=20 be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc7925#section-17=20 and removed to DTLS 1.3 last time I looked at it.

  I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it = can be=20 generalized to all request/response correlation.

  Here some discussion about this idea = :
     -=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html
=     =20 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html

=

Simon

Le 08/06/2017 =C3=A0 11:08, Carsten Bormann = a =C3=A9crit=20 :
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim =
(INST/ECS4) mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com<=
/A> wrote:

It's still unclear to me, if =
this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of =
RFC7252.  =20

I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), =
but I could get clarification on that.

I think that we can agree that the =
current definition is
=E2=80=94 not fully clear
=E2=80=94 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may =
not actually be implemented)
=E2=80=94 unnecessarily restrictive.

Now the next question is what definition would
=E2=80=94 make sense from an implementers=E2=80=99 point of view
=E2=80=94 not be unnecessarily restrictive
=E2=80=94 retain the desirable security properties of the current =
restrictive definition
- be clear
- maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn=E2=80=99t fully baked =
yet).

(And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it =E2=80=94 that =
is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me =
made.  E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/core

_______________________________________________
core mailing=20 list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
------=_NextPart_000_0105_01D2E17F.D4FB9780-- From nobody Fri Jun 9 10:23:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE5912871F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:23:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ymuq7XFgI_72 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 16.mo7.mail-out.ovh.net (16.mo7.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.72.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE460129B55 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from player697.ha.ovh.net (b9.ovh.net [213.186.33.59]) by mo7.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF255953F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:23:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.41.51.97] (130.163-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com [84.14.163.130]) (Authenticated sender: contact@simonbernard.eu) by player697.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90B76480083; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:22:58 +0200 (CEST) To: weigengyu , Carsten Bormann , "Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)" References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> <88a7de1d-f9fe-3743-a58c-5cdd5ad7b82a@simonbernard.eu> Cc: core@ietf.org From: Simon Bernard Message-ID: <33b06763-4315-dfb1-8551-988149d3d422@simonbernard.eu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:22:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3F8F7E93E5117DD3C05799B6" X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 15669711956028700839 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeeljedrieehgdduuddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddm Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:23:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3F8F7E93E5117DD3C05799B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is the point. We agree that a new DTLS association must be established. It's ok as generally this is the peer which has a dynamic IP which will initiate this handshake. This is not optimal but this is ok (some solution is explored to optimize that like the connection ID proposed by Fossati draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00) Let's suppose a peer with dynamic IP address is observed and send notification. When its IP address changes a new observe relation should also be established to respect the same epoch/same connection constraint. If we don't, observe notifications should be dropped. The issue : this time this is not the peer with the dynamic IP address which must initiate the relation. Another issue : NAT timeout is sometime around 60s so for some use case we need to re-established observe relation each time we receive a notification ? This is not the spirit of the observe feature. Le 09/06/2017 脿 18:23, weigengyu a 茅crit : > Hi all, > In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie: > Cookie = HMAC(Secret, Client-IP, Client-Parameters) > Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS > handshakes. > If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the > handshake will not continue. > Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP address. > If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a > successfule handshake, > the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to belong > to a different DTLS association. > In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record > would be regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to > RFC6347. > So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS > association must be establishied. > Regards, > Gengyu WEI > Network Technology Center > School of Computer > Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications > *From:* Simon Bernard > *Sent:* Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) > > *Cc:* core@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs > > Hi, > > We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in > a LWM2M context. > > My understanding is "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS > connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address > environment (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same > epoch" means "no TLS renegociation". > > IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" > (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for > authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case > you want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. > But TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 > last time I looked at it. > > I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can > be generalized to all request/response correlation. > > Here some discussion about this idea : > - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html > - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html > > Simon > > Le 08/06/2017 脿 11:08, Carsten Bormann a 茅crit : >> On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com wrote: >>> It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. >>> >>> I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but I could get clarification on that. >> I think that we can agree that the current definition is >> 鈥 not fully clear >> 鈥 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may not actually be implemented) >> 鈥 unnecessarily restrictive. >> >> Now the next question is what definition would >> 鈥 make sense from an implementers鈥 point of view >> 鈥 not be unnecessarily restrictive >> 鈥 retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition >> - be clear >> - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn鈥檛 fully baked yet). >> >> (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it 鈥 that is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) >> >> Gr眉脽e, Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> core mailing list >> core@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core --------------3F8F7E93E5117DD3C05799B6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is the point. We agree that a new DTLS association must be established. It's ok as generally this is the peer which has a dynamic IP which will initiate this handshake. This is not optimal but this is ok (some solution is explored to optimize that like the connection ID proposed by Fossati draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00)

Let's suppose a peer with dynamic IP address is observed and send notification. When its IP address changes a new observe relation should also be established to respect the same epoch/same connection constraint. If we don't, observe notifications should be dropped. The issue :聽 this time this is not the peer with the dynamic IP address which must initiate the relation. Another issue :聽 NAT timeout is sometime around 60s so for some use case we need to re-established observe relation each time we receive a notification ? This is not the spirit of the observe feature.

Le 09/06/2017 脿 18:23, weigengyu a 茅crit聽:
Hi all,
聽
In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie:
聽聽聽聽聽 Cookie = HMAC(Secret, Client-IP, Client-Parameters)
Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS handshakes.
聽
If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the handshake will not continue.聽
Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP address.
聽
If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a successfule handshake,
the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to belong to a different DTLS association.
In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record would be regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to RFC6347.
聽
So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS association must be establishied.
聽
聽
Regards,
聽
Gengyu WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer
Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications
聽
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs
聽

Hi,

聽 We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in a LWM2M context.

聽 My understanding is聽 "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no TLS renegociation".

聽 IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 last time I looked at it.

聽 I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can be generalized to all request/response correlation.

聽 Here some discussion about this idea :
聽聽聽聽 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html
聽聽聽聽 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html

Simon

Le 08/06/2017 脿 11:08, Carsten Bormann a 茅crit :
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com wrote:

It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252.   

I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but I could get clarification on that.

I think that we can agree that the current definition is
鈥 not fully clear
鈥 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may not actually be implemented)
鈥 unnecessarily restrictive.

Now the next question is what definition would
鈥 make sense from an implementers鈥 point of view
鈥 not be unnecessarily restrictive
鈥 retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition
- be clear
- maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn鈥檛 fully baked yet).

(And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it 鈥 that is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me made.  E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.)

Gr眉脽e, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

--------------3F8F7E93E5117DD3C05799B6-- From nobody Fri Jun 9 10:43:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B61126C89 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:43:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.439, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3sOJLqxriE2o for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-48.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-64.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC8801293FF for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([114.246.137.206]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 10 Jun 2017 01:43:42 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 75019366424 Message-ID: From: "weigengyu" To: "Carsten Bormann" , "Kraus Achim \(INST/ECS4\)" Cc: References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 01:43:43 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:43:54 -0000 Hi, CoAP will work by current RFC7252 context. The epoch would be changed if IP address is changed because the DTLS client and server must start a new DTLS association. If the IP address is changed just after a CON message is sent out, an ACK or RST will not be precessoced properly. Then a new DTLS association will be establishied under the CoAP. After that, the "repeated" CON message must be treated as a new CON message. It is a new CON message sent over a new DTLS association with a epoch according to RFC7252 9.1.1, "A message is the same when it is sent within the same DTLS session and same epoch and has the same Message ID." The ACK or RST will use the new epoch over the new DTLS association. CoAP goes into the normal message exchanges' stage. Suppose that the epoch is changed while the IP address is the same. The epoch could be changed only during DTLS handshakes before CoAP message is sent. CoAP Observe is affected if the IP address is changed. The CoAP Obsever needs to have an ablity to handle an Observation to the same resource over different DTLS associations when the IP address is changed. So, I think that we can agree that the current definition is 鈥 not fully clear It would be better to add more explanations about how the CoAP entity to handle such exceptions in RFC7252. We wish to retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition. Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Carsten Bormann Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2017 5:08 PM To: Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) wrote: > > It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same > epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. > > I pointed to that last summer > (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but I > could get clarification on that. I think that we can agree that the current definition is 鈥 not fully clear 鈥 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may not actually be implemented) 鈥 unnecessarily restrictive. Now the next question is what definition would 鈥 make sense from an implementers鈥 point of view 鈥 not be unnecessarily restrictive 鈥 retain the desirable security properties of the current restrictive definition - be clear - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn鈥檛 fully baked yet). (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it 鈥 that is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) Gr眉脽e, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Fri Jun 9 11:26:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5257712871F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3sK8HY-maEDJ for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 11:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-45.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-67.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7199F12708C for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([114.246.137.206]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 10 Jun 2017 02:25:55 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 624005222411 Message-ID: <17939BECECE744D098EA88260AEDF9B4@WeiGengyuPC> From: "weigengyu" To: "Carsten Bormann" , "Kraus Achim \(INST/ECS4\)" , "Simon Bernard" Cc: References: <003501d2cd32$c4417a10$4cc46e30$@augustcellars.com> <005e01d2cd8f$ae548dc0$0afda940$@augustcellars.com> <014601d2daf1$8f1865c0$ad493140$@augustcellars.com> <849AEC05-87E3-48A7-B5C6-E6B6C8DC98D5@tzi.org> <015501d2dafe$dc53e640$94fbb2c0$@augustcellars.com> <0EE7D28C4BD94A4BB8ACA70FF0182BFC@WeiGengyuPC> <000001d2db51$a7d31c30$f7795490$@augustcellars.com> <000301d2db56$24df9ab0$6e9ed010$@augustcellars.com> <35046B0695F64F97ABE9E1965062E7FC@WeiGengyuPC> <83c2fca38c534509aa77241aa3105aad@FE-MBX1027.de.bosch.com> <4FC55496-308A-4FCA-8003-6E0B4BB92015@tzi.org> <88a7de1d-f9fe-3743-a58c-5cdd5ad7b82a@simonbernard.eu> <33b06763-4315-dfb1-8551-988149d3d422@simonbernard.eu> In-Reply-To: <33b06763-4315-dfb1-8551-988149d3d422@simonbernard.eu> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 02:25:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0189_01D2E190.E3AAFDA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 18:26:05 -0000 这是一封 MIME 格式的多方邮件。 ------=_NextPart_000_0189_01D2E190.E3AAFDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 > The issue : this time this is not the peer with the dynamic IP = address which must initiate the relation.=20 As the IP address change at any side will invoke to establish a new DTLS = association,=20 the CoAP Observe entity should handle One Observation over different = DTLS associations. In current Observe standard context, One Observation is implied to be = delivered only over one-unchanged DTLS. > Another issue : NAT timeout is sometime around 60s so for some use = case we need to re-established observe relation each time we receive a = notification ?=20 > This is not the spirit of the observe feature. When the IP address is changed, it is Inevitable to establish a new DTLS = association, the CoAP Observer entity have to handle this change to keep = the observe relations, something as mentioned the connection ID proposed by Fossati = draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00. Making the spirit of the observe feature available, the CoAP client and = CoAP server needs to have some abilities:=20 1. to handle to establish a new DTLS association when IP address is = changed; 2. to keep and understand an Observe relationship by some Identities; 3. to deliver the same Observation (Notifications) over different DTLS = associations.=20 Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer=20 Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications From: Simon Bernard=20 Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 1:22 AM To: weigengyu ; Carsten Bormann ; Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)=20 Cc: core@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs This is the point. We agree that a new DTLS association must be = established. It's ok as generally this is the peer which has a dynamic = IP which will initiate this handshake. This is not optimal but this is = ok (some solution is explored to optimize that like the connection ID = proposed by Fossati draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00) Let's suppose a peer with dynamic IP address is observed and send = notification. When its IP address changes a new observe relation should = also be established to respect the same epoch/same connection = constraint. If we don't, observe notifications should be dropped. The = issue : this time this is not the peer with the dynamic IP address = which must initiate the relation. Another issue : NAT timeout is = sometime around 60s so for some use case we need to re-established = observe relation each time we receive a notification ? This is not the = spirit of the observe feature. Le 09/06/2017 =C3=A0 18:23, weigengyu a =C3=A9crit : Hi all, In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie:=20 Cookie =3D HMAC(Secret, Client-IP, Client-Parameters) Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS = handshakes.=20 If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the = handshake will not continue. =20 Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP address. If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a = successfule handshake,=20 the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to belong = to a different DTLS association.=20 In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record = would be regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to = RFC6347.=20 So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS = association must be establishied.=20 Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer=20 Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications From: Simon Bernard=20 Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM To: Carsten Bormann ; Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)=20 Cc: core@ietf.org=20 Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs Hi, We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work behind NAT in = a LWM2M context. My understanding is "same epoch" means implicitly "same DTLS = connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address environment = (as DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no = TLS renegociation". IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same identity" = (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for = authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case you = want to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But = TLS renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and removed to DTLS 1.3 = last time I looked at it. I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe it can = be generalized to all request/response correlation. Here some discussion about this idea : - = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08019.html - = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg08004.html Simon Le 08/06/2017 =C3=A0 11:08, Carsten Bormann a =C3=A9crit : On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4) = mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com wrote: It's still unclear to me, if this should be considered to be the "same = epoch" in the meaning of RFC7252. =20 I pointed to that last summer = (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg07816.html), but = I could get clarification on that. I think that we can agree that the current definition is =E2=80=94 not fully clear =E2=80=94 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may = not actually be implemented) =E2=80=94 unnecessarily restrictive. Now the next question is what definition would =E2=80=94 make sense from an implementers=E2=80=99 point of view =E2=80=94 not be unnecessarily restrictive =E2=80=94 retain the desirable security properties of the current = restrictive definition - be clear - maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn=E2=80=99t fully baked = yet). (And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it =E2=80=94 that = is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me = made. E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core ------=_NextPart_000_0189_01D2E190.E3AAFDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
> The issue :  this time this is not the peer with the = dynamic IP=20 address which must initiate the relation.
 
As the IP address change at any side will invoke to establish a new = DTLS=20 association,
the CoAP Observe entity should handle One Observation over = different DTLS=20 associations.
In current Observe standard context, One Observation is implied to = be=20 delivered only over one-unchanged DTLS.
 
> Another issue :  NAT timeout is sometime around 60s so = for some=20 use case we need to re-established observe relation each time we receive = a=20 notification ?
> This is not the spirit of the observe feature.
When the IP address is changed, it is Inevitable to establish a new = DTLS=20 association, the CoAP Observer entity have to handle this change to keep = the=20 observe relations,
something as mentioned the connection ID proposed by Fossati=20 draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00.
 
Making the spirit of the observe feature available, the CoAP client = and=20 CoAP server needs to have some abilities:
1. to handle to establish a new DTLS association when IP address is = changed;
2. to keep and understand an Observe relationship by some = Identities;
3. to deliver the same Observation (Notifications) over different = DTLS=20 associations.
Regards,
 
Gengyu=20 WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer
Beijing = University of=20 Posts and Telecommunications
 
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 1:22 AM
To: weigengyu ; Carsten Bormann ; Kraus=20 Achim (INST/ECS4)
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs
 

This is the point. We agree that a new DTLS association must be = established.=20 It's ok as generally this is the peer which has a dynamic IP which will = initiate=20 this handshake. This is not optimal but this is ok (some solution is = explored to=20 optimize that like the connection ID proposed by Fossati=20 draft-fossati-tls-iot-optimizations-00)

Let's suppose a peer with dynamic IP address is observed and send=20 notification. When its IP address changes a new observe relation should = also be=20 established to respect the same epoch/same connection constraint. If we = don't,=20 observe notifications should be dropped. The issue :  this time = this is not=20 the peer with the dynamic IP address which must initiate the relation. = Another=20 issue :  NAT timeout is sometime around 60s so for some use case we = need to=20 re-established observe relation each time we receive a notification ? = This is=20 not the spirit of the observe feature.

Le 09/06/2017 =C3=A0 18:23, weigengyu a = =C3=A9crit :
Hi all,
 
In DTLS there is a formal to calculate a cookie:
      Cookie =3D HMAC(Secret, Client-IP, = Client-Parameters)
Cookie is related to the Client-IP address and used during DTLS=20 handshakes.
 
If the IP address is changed just during handshanke stage, the = handshake=20 will not continue. 
Then it must start a new DTLS shandshake with the new IP = address.
 
If the IP address is changed during DTLS record delivery after a=20 successfule handshake,
the DTLS record carried in a new IP address would be treated to = belong to=20 a different DTLS association.
In a receiving side with an unchanged IP address, the DTLS record = would=20 be regarded as an invalide one to be discarded according to RFC6347. =
 
So, for CoAP Observe if the IP address is changed, a new DTLS = association=20 must be establishied.
 
 
Regards,
 
Gengyu WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer =
Beijing=20 University of Posts and Telecommunications
 
From: Simon = Bernard=20
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [core] DTLS and Epochs
 

Hi,

  We faced this issue when we tried to make observe work = behind NAT in=20 a LWM2M context.

  My understanding is  "same epoch" means implicitly = "same DTLS=20 connection too" which is a real issue in dynamic IP address = environment (as=20 DTLS connection is identified by IP address). "same epoch" means "no = TLS=20 renegociation".

  IMHO, "same epoch/connection" should be replaced by "same = identity"=20 (PSK identity for PSK, public key for RPK, CN for certificate) for=20 authenticated peer or "same session" for non-authenticated. In case = you want=20 to allow TLS renegotiation you should add "same cipher" too. But TLS=20 renegotiation seems to be not advisable for DTLS 1.2 : https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925#section-17 and=20 removed to DTLS 1.3 last time I looked at it.

  I initially think about that for observe request, but maybe = it can=20 be generalized to all request/response correlation.

  Here some discussion about this idea = :
     -=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/curre= nt/msg08019.html
    =20 - https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/curre= nt/msg08004.html

Simon

Le 08/06/2017 =C3=A0 11:08, Carsten = Bormann a =C3=A9crit=20 :
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:17, Kraus Achim =
(INST/ECS4) mailto:Achim.Kraus@bosch-si.com wrote:

It's still unclear to me, =
if this should be considered to be the "same epoch" in the meaning of =
RFC7252.  =20

I pointed to that last summer (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/curre=
nt/msg07816.html), but I could get clarification on that.

I think that we can agree that the =
current definition is
=E2=80=94 not fully clear
=E2=80=94 unrealistic in certain implementation environments (so it may =
not actually be implemented)
=E2=80=94 unnecessarily restrictive.

Now the next question is what definition would
=E2=80=94 make sense from an implementers=E2=80=99 point of view
=E2=80=94 not be unnecessarily restrictive
=E2=80=94 retain the desirable security properties of the current =
restrictive definition
- be clear
- maybe also make sense for DTLS 1.3 (which isn=E2=80=99t fully baked =
yet).

(And then we have to figure out the process for fixing it =E2=80=94 that =
is not too hard once we know the extent of the change that needs to me =
made.  E.g., an RFC updating RFC 7252.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

_______________________________________________
core mailing = list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/core

------=_NextPart_000_0189_01D2E190.E3AAFDA0-- From nobody Mon Jun 12 11:20:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD266129576 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qOIPgG5w995 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF04412957C for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.196] ([80.92.114.129]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mhdex-1dXJi130QV-00Mqvq; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:20:30 +0200 To: "core@ietf.org WG" From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Kepeng Li Message-ID: <8c3716f5-7496-ea26-fb42-bb153160294d@gmx.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:20:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:F3tEyvZ/W79jxCQLZh6Bnych+iXNKiDmInLnRd/qQu+pTEVgj8Y hWpQ/TRP7WQ1YIm7+Ul9FcyOCsyuWmw1skkpDyxJ6t6ZZAMU89sUVTtmfr3PqhUHTycAXH8 logMXyYIF1HCpfvGSzOkx5GOIU6lnoy+2mlTmbhRqAmMdASTiHpTx9wzzBn9aHBSTepRHcw A4mK+keKQMyQLuX03vlEA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:A7JtX9nnaqs=:8IrT/6cxq3ojnUdnnXyEJI JiJv9nyC7Bm+xQlbTn0Mid4s6WS9YI7vQOVH4ocS5BjTrhlErRiUyNoQQQ2aUQPZ+yHf2lR86 B6ouzZlmDloaRfbCIxJrXGCbILBseUBM8yvARDaT9SIDpR2+mN0WiMkuHdfJR09JAG+RQkgTN bPbljPw7qpORXfPeEcAh2plTGmGO4DPIhYJSZ59jjqEYzaZsAt5tT7GMt53n4/ElZcZv6Answ 0bKDFl9YMk5w3cHL2ZhrSwEnyW0E0RksSxYzWRR5d6r3CTFLJcs7h1xzNiGDJDtiFwIFoNRt2 V11Qu4IePHgQabl/AzKVR4zoH52r0qO1DyZZ7OTkn+vprXD8MjBg52SBHqPYQu+YCHf14i32N ay9XnVYdqixdKaGQ/XqbJaHJQ/xa+Ob6GU7BmUseD1PaYIqn3rnZMnMZpDibTCl7Ix+dooKRi VdZ4GE6NhrWZBO+dRHUs27/rUsth94ouO2LNmLQYUGR0lPV9CqnhlUxL+gl5cufNUKA22/Yxt E8SUWERQdxoNg4RyNVUOJCYfthlZ+gALqfmBebCeTTkPNO8V/y3sHVyizq0Uls1/iUYygbtXp +eLhkUOAh0wRyQPSsPSOe5KeulRIcXqS4YW1Rwn78iK+bzhKpa9wXChDVrMfzWaQtprKAu42l dmIknQwslc+cCqMoUgF6s620C5vYHle/QNgM7fDAg/IWV23KAnpyT84QcuOohO8uKjq869B8W GgEtBub5rXfWZQolahYh8pHap7GLyLgfIvBzG7Sya0fqJpcy06eu9mXlq6eJZO9KAIZT2gIfQ KE5YHow Archived-At: Subject: [core] Potential uses of PoP keys in CBOR Web Tokens (CWTs) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:20:41 -0000 Hi all, RFC 7800 defines how to communicate Proof of Possession (PoP) keys for JSON Web Tokens (JWTs) [RFC 7519]. The CBOR Web Token (CWT) draft-ietf-ace-cbor-web-token spec defines the CBOR/COSE equivalent of the JSON/JOSE JWT spec. The ACE working group is planning to also define a CBOR/COSE equivalent of RFC 7800 and is interested in knowing how you might use CBOR proof-of-possession keys for CWTs. Please drop us a message if you are using CBOR PoP keys for CWTs. We would like to learn more about your usage. Ciao Hannes & Kepeng From nobody Thu Jun 15 11:08:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97527126C22 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Js-6DRv0NaJ6 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 11:08:20 -0700 (PDT) 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16 Jun 2017 23:25:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <55877B3AFB359744BA0F2140E36F52B55B9FC95E@MBX110.d.ethz.ch> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 23:25:37 +0200 Cc: Dave Thaler , "Kraus Achim (INST/ECS4)" , "core@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 519341137.177586-c23541c64e0253b29a5334aa7ea9bbff Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <16E1AFB1-AA50-4F49-ACB6-3B2B7703C7AD@tzi.org> References: <76EA187B-4A41-4363-B49E-75064626190A@tzi.org> <55877B3AFB359744BA0F2140E36F52B55B9FC95E@MBX110.d.ethz.ch> To: Kovatsch Matthias X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:25:46 -0000 On Jun 16, 2017, at 22:49, Kovatsch Matthias = wrote: >=20 > Hi all > =20 > To me it feels, we need a special session for this during IETF 99. It = is really hard to follow the arguments in the e-mails, as there are so = many unspoken assumptions, solutions-in-mind, and misunderstandings. I = would guess, I am not the only one who cannot get a clear picture of the = (assumed) problem, implications, and possible solutions. > =20 > It would be good to know what =E2=80=9Cwhat URI schemes actually = mean=E2=80=9D means. > To me, it defines the syntax and semantics of the rest of the URI. = Important semantics would be if the port is a UDP or a TCP port. > =20 > It would be good to know how the mess of HTTP 1.x, SPDY1, SPDY2, = SPDY3, H2, and QUIC is actually solved. > To my understanding in particular SPDY and QUIC are solved by = out-of-band info patched into the browser (~Chrome knew what gmail.com = speaks=E2=80=A6~). > =20 > It would be good to know what the actual assumptions are. > CoAP clients do trial-and-error until they get a response? > All CoAP endpoints are expected to implement all transport and the = pick of transport is just because of the middlebox baggage? > Web Linking will always include transport hints in the future? > It is just a hint even when the publisher of a link knows for sure = what transports are implemented in the origin server? > =E2=80=A6 > =20 > How come we still need https and http? Right. I believe we had the best possible solution for this =E2=80=9CGemengelage=E2= =80=9D (untranslatable German word for a situation where a number of = unrelated issues collide and create something utterly complicated to = resolve) in -07. The IESG has a number of people who have the scars from SIP, which ran = into a superficially similar, but actually mostly unrelated issue and = resolved it by attaching a transport hint to an otherwise identical URI. = We cannot do this as easily as SIP could, but got stuck with the idea = that we have to use the same URI scheme for the different transports. http:// and https:// have the same problem, but 1 =E2=80=94 it was resolved that the resources under these two schemes = are unrelated, 2 =E2=80=94 people got used to the pain caused by this. (We are mirroring this with coap:// and coaps://, and I don=E2=80=99t = think this is controversial =E2=80=94 it really does make a semantic = difference whether there are transport security expectations bound to = the resolution of that URI or not.) With respect to the UDP/TCP/WS decision, we tried to do (1) in -07, but = did not have (2), obviously. (I believe (1) is not so bright for UDP coap vs. TCP coap, so if (1) = doesn=E2=80=99t help getting acceptance then we shouldn=E2=80=99t do = it.) The consensus document governing registration of URI schemes is RFC = 7595. I believe we were in full compliance with that with -07. I = don=E2=80=99t want to run process arguments before we have completed the = technical discussion, but I actually believe e.g. section 3.3 of that = document is less clearly satisfied by -09 than it was by -07. More = importantly than those process issues, my problem is that the issues the = IESG members have in mind appear to be undocumented, so I can=E2=80=99t = learn about them from a document that exposes them in a detailed manner. Coap-tcp of course also was done in the knowledge that there are other = transports waiting, such as webrtc-dc, SMS or even slipmux. It seems = unlikely these can be done with a URI-Scheme that is common with the = IP-address based ones. We cannot really learn much from the way HTTP solves its transport = vagaries because those solutions are based on the ability to put a lot = of complexity into implementations. For HTTP, the URI has a much more = user-visible role, and it is likely appropriate to incur this complexity = to keep up the fiction that there is only one HTTP. CoAP is meant to be = direct and to the point, without relying on tons of pre-configuration, = learning, or indirection, so any happy eyeball style approaches are = grossly suboptimal. (They may still be necessary in certain not so nice cases; cf. the work = on Thin ICE.) Given that URI-Schemes are a dime a dozen (with provisional = registrations being easy), I=E2=80=99m not sure that implementers (or = downstream SDOs) won=E2=80=99t go the way of registering (or even = squatting on) their own transport-specific URI-Schemes to return to = sanity. Having a meeting about the URI-Scheme issue might indeed be the only way = forward remaining. =20 It is also a slow way forward. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Jun 16 16:56:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB520129540; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nM8JdYlIWS9x; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB18F12953F; Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5GNuUVG003810; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 01:56:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DC7F3A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.243.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wqHMd617KzDK04; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 01:56:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 519350189.453979-e3b2d906e8bab442948f66a848a5cc63 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 01:56:29 +0200 Message-Id: <2DB0474F-900D-42FD-B2C5-F61F396B751C@tzi.org> To: ace , core , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF99: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 23:56:37 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF99. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. ACE people are going to miss DISPATCH (ARTAREA) again -- not sure if there would have been be any discussions relevant to Constrained Nodes/Networks in ARTAREA, but it doesn't make sense with this scheduling. CORE people will miss both ANIMA and (in-week) ICNRG. ROLL people will miss SAAG, ouch. And LPWAN is on the second half of QUIC. All no disasters, AFAICS, but not pain-free. All times are CEST (UTC+0200). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten SATURDAY/SUNDAY -- T2TRG -- ICNRG -- Hackathon (including various interops) MONDAY, July 17, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H III ART dispatch Dispatch WG - 09:30-11:30 Grand Hilton BR INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Congress H I SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Congress H III SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG - 11:30-12:00 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Karlin I/II INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Grand Hilton BR INT homenet Home Networking WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Karlin I/II ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Berlin/Brussels SEC tokbind Token Binding WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Athens/Barcel. RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Grand Hilton BR TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting TUESDAY, July 18, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H II OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Congress H I TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Grand Hilton BR IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Berlin/Brussels SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Congress H I TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Karlin I/II INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Congress H I IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum WEDNESDAY, July 19, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H I ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Karlin I/II IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Congress H III OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Congress H II RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Grand Hilton BR SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Karlin III TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Grand Hilton BR ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Congress H III IRTF panrg Proposed Path Aware Networking Congress H II RTG ideas IDentity Enabled Networks BOF 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Grand Hilton BR ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG THURSDAY, July 20, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Grand Hilton BR INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Congress H II IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Congress H I RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Berlin/Brussels ART ice Interactive Connectivity Establishment = WG Grand Hilton BR OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Karlin I/II RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Congress H III SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Athens/Barcel. INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG Grand Hilton BR TSV quic QUIC WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Berlin/Brussels ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Athens/Barcel. INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Karlin I/II RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Congress H III TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG FRIDAY, July 21, 2017 0930-1130 Morning Session I Berlin/Brussels INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Karlin I/II INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Karlin III SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Grand Hilton BR TSV quic QUIC WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session II Congress H III ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Grand Hilton BR SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG From nobody Sat Jun 17 03:08:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC1112702E for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 03:08:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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In discouraging the use of several URI schemes for CoAP, one review recommended a series of steps, in which CoAP over UDP is MTI: Always try UDP first, and if no response is forthcoming, to then resort to TCP. Port 80/443 would always default to CoAP over ws or wss without needing to engage UDP initially. Obviously this has repercussions regarding protocol and application logic. >> Web Linking will always include transport hints in the future? >> It is just a hint even when the publisher of a link knows for sure what transports are implemented in the origin server? I think it is important to have mechanisms to allow transport hints, regardless [1]. >> >> How come we still need https and http? > Right. > > I believe we had the best possible solution for this 鈥淕emengelage鈥 (untranslatable German word for a situation where a number of unrelated issues collide and create something utterly complicated to resolve) in -07. > > The IESG has a number of people who have the scars from SIP, which ran into a superficially similar, but actually mostly unrelated issue and resolved it by attaching a transport hint to an otherwise identical URI. We cannot do this as easily as SIP could, but got stuck with the idea that we have to use the same URI scheme for the different transports. What we learnt from the CoAP Alternative Transport URI work [2] is: A) Embedding the transport hint in the URI path, fragment or query component is a bad idea B) Placing it in the host in the URI authority component can become easily complicated. Moreover, RFC 7320 forbids this. > Given that URI-Schemes are a dime a dozen (with provisional registrations being easy), I鈥檓 not sure that implementers (or downstream SDOs) won鈥檛 go the way of registering (or even squatting on) their own transport-specific URI-Schemes to return to sanity. This is correct. Extending the CoAP application logic instead to support a new transport, without using a new URI format, would be more complex. It also complicates RD registrations and lookups. Conversely, it must also be recognised that right now, some mechanisms are bound to the "coap" and "coaps" URI schemes, such as using ".well-known/". Minting new CoAP URI schemes would also require extending this to support them. Regards, Bill [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-silverajan-core-coap-protocol-negotiation/ [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-silverajan-core-coap-alternative-transports-09#appendix-A From nobody Sat Jun 17 05:16:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0FC12946C for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.439, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MK6rvkUjgRZb for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-6-45.vip.sina.com.cn (r3-68.sinamail.sina.com.cn [202.108.3.68]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EF72126C2F for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO WeiGengyuPC)([221.222.221.189]) by vip.sina.com with ESMTP 17 Jun 2017 20:16:35 +0800 (CST) X-Sender: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-Auth-ID: weigengyu@vip.sina.com X-SMAIL-MID: 472097221802 Message-ID: <711DFB6F21164957A5A7E30EE1593EC7@WeiGengyuPC> From: "weigengyu" To: "Carsten Bormann" , "Kovatsch Matthias" Cc: References: <76EA187B-4A41-4363-B49E-75064626190A@tzi.org> <55877B3AFB359744BA0F2140E36F52B55B9FC95E@MBX110.d.ethz.ch> <16E1AFB1-AA50-4F49-ACB6-3B2B7703C7AD@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <16E1AFB1-AA50-4F49-ACB6-3B2B7703C7AD@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 20:16:34 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 12:16:54 -0000 Hi, > The IESG has a number of people who have the scars from SIP, which ran > into a superficially similar, > but actually mostly unrelated issue and resolved it by attaching a > transport hint to an otherwise identical URI. > We cannot do this as easily as SIP could, but got stuck with the idea that > we have to use the same URI scheme for the different transports. As the problem described, the upper layer protocol (application layer, http or DNS) generally adopts the lower layer protcoal(transport layer, TCP or UDP) by default or by manually configuration to bind the selected protocols when deliver messages. Could the upper layer protocol to define an explicit attribute to indicatie a selected lower layer protocol when there are some lower layer protocols to choose? It is expected that CoAP will be tranferred over UDP, TCP, SMS, or WS. So, for CoAP protocol and the stacks, besides defining a URL sheme to indicate a selected transport protocol, is it required or possible to define some CoAP facility, such as a CoAP option, to inform this indication? Regards, Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications -----鍘熷閭欢----- From: Carsten Bormann Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 5:25 AM To: Kovatsch Matthias Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input On Jun 16, 2017, at 22:49, Kovatsch Matthias wrote: > > Hi all > > To me it feels, we need a special session for this during IETF 99. It is > really hard to follow the arguments in the e-mails, as there are so many > unspoken assumptions, solutions-in-mind, and misunderstandings. I would > guess, I am not the only one who cannot get a clear picture of the > (assumed) problem, implications, and possible solutions. > > It would be good to know what 鈥渨hat URI schemes actually mean鈥 means. > To me, it defines the syntax and semantics of the rest of the URI. > Important semantics would be if the port is a UDP or a TCP port. > > It would be good to know how the mess of HTTP 1.x, SPDY1, SPDY2, SPDY3, > H2, and QUIC is actually solved. > To my understanding in particular SPDY and QUIC are solved by out-of-band > info patched into the browser (~Chrome knew what gmail.com speaks鈥). > > It would be good to know what the actual assumptions are. > CoAP clients do trial-and-error until they get a response? > All CoAP endpoints are expected to implement all transport and the pick of > transport is just because of the middlebox baggage? > Web Linking will always include transport hints in the future? > It is just a hint even when the publisher of a link knows for sure what > transports are implemented in the origin server? > 鈥 > > How come we still need https and http? Right. I believe we had the best possible solution for this 鈥淕emengelage鈥 (untranslatable German word for a situation where a number of unrelated issues collide and create something utterly complicated to resolve) in -07. The IESG has a number of people who have the scars from SIP, which ran into a superficially similar, but actually mostly unrelated issue and resolved it by attaching a transport hint to an otherwise identical URI. We cannot do this as easily as SIP could, but got stuck with the idea that we have to use the same URI scheme for the different transports. http:// and https:// have the same problem, but 1 鈥 it was resolved that the resources under these two schemes are unrelated, 2 鈥 people got used to the pain caused by this. (We are mirroring this with coap:// and coaps://, and I don鈥檛 think this is controversial 鈥 it really does make a semantic difference whether there are transport security expectations bound to the resolution of that URI or not.) With respect to the UDP/TCP/WS decision, we tried to do (1) in -07, but did not have (2), obviously. (I believe (1) is not so bright for UDP coap vs. TCP coap, so if (1) doesn鈥檛 help getting acceptance then we shouldn鈥檛 do it.) The consensus document governing registration of URI schemes is RFC 7595. I believe we were in full compliance with that with -07. I don鈥檛 want to run process arguments before we have completed the technical discussion, but I actually believe e.g. section 3.3 of that document is less clearly satisfied by -09 than it was by -07. More importantly than those process issues, my problem is that the issues the IESG members have in mind appear to be undocumented, so I can鈥檛 learn about them from a document that exposes them in a detailed manner. Coap-tcp of course also was done in the knowledge that there are other transports waiting, such as webrtc-dc, SMS or even slipmux. It seems unlikely these can be done with a URI-Scheme that is common with the IP-address based ones. We cannot really learn much from the way HTTP solves its transport vagaries because those solutions are based on the ability to put a lot of complexity into implementations. For HTTP, the URI has a much more user-visible role, and it is likely appropriate to incur this complexity to keep up the fiction that there is only one HTTP. CoAP is meant to be direct and to the point, without relying on tons of pre-configuration, learning, or indirection, so any happy eyeball style approaches are grossly suboptimal. (They may still be necessary in certain not so nice cases; cf. the work on Thin ICE.) Given that URI-Schemes are a dime a dozen (with provisional registrations being easy), I鈥檓 not sure that implementers (or downstream SDOs) won鈥檛 go the way of registering (or even squatting on) their own transport-specific URI-Schemes to return to sanity. Having a meeting about the URI-Scheme issue might indeed be the only way forward remaining. It is also a slow way forward. Gr眉脽e, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Sat Jun 17 05:32:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA2C129488 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HywlBGpyB-Sy for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA87312717E for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5HCWDLC027166; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 14:32:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.113] (p5DC7F3A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.243.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wqc7d5Xn4zDK4T; Sat, 17 Jun 2017 14:32:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3246d149-f2c3-083a-c95a-0830b1520b07@tut.fi> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 14:32:13 +0200 Cc: core@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 519395532.92723-a07b18e75acc149e38384d1385bb8273 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6EDC3CEC-E5E6-4269-9074-9EEC4844C18D@tzi.org> References: <76EA187B-4A41-4363-B49E-75064626190A@tzi.org> <55877B3AFB359744BA0F2140E36F52B55B9FC95E@MBX110.d.ethz.ch> <16E1AFB1-AA50-4F49-ACB6-3B2B7703C7AD@tzi.org> <3246d149-f2c3-083a-c95a-0830b1520b07@tut.fi> To: Bill Silverajan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 12:32:19 -0000 Hi Bill, > On Jun 17, 2017, at 12:07, Bill Silverajan = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 >>> It would be good to know what the actual assumptions are. >>> CoAP clients do trial-and-error until they get a response? >>> All CoAP endpoints are expected to implement all transport and the = pick of transport is just because of the middlebox baggage? >=20 > In discouraging the use of several URI schemes for CoAP, one review = recommended a series of steps, in which CoAP over UDP is MTI: Always try = UDP first, and if no response is forthcoming, to then resort to TCP. = Port 80/443 would always default to CoAP over ws or wss without needing = to engage UDP initially. Obviously this has repercussions regarding = protocol and application logic. Right. It also does not work for one of the main applications of = CoAP-TCP: traversal of NATs with short UDP binding lifetimes. The probe = will always work through such a NAT, but then the observation = relationships won=E2=80=99t, because the UDP binding is gone by the time = the notification needs to be transferred. (Of course, a server can work around this issue by providing a URI with = an IP address that listens on TCP only, so the UDP probe fails. This = likely outcome is wrong on so many levels=E2=80=A6) [=E2=80=A6] > Conversely, it must also be recognised that right now, some mechanisms = are bound to the "coap" and "coaps" URI schemes, such as using = ".well-known/". Minting new CoAP URI schemes would also require = extending this to support them. Not sure I get this point. We did add well-known support for the new = URI schemes in -07. 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SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jun 2017 19:49:37.7814 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR03MB2265 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 19:49:49 -0000 QWdyZWUgd2l0aCBDYXJzdGVuLiAgQWxzbywgQWRhbSBSb2FjaCBwb2ludGVkIG91dCB0aGF0IHNv 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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR02MB1088 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Editors' draft of changes to draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08 after IESG input X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 20:07:04 -0000 Hi Carsten, On 17/06/17 15:32, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Bill, > >> On Jun 17, 2017, at 12:07, Bill Silverajan wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>>> It would be good to know what the actual assumptions are. >>>> CoAP clients do trial-and-error until they get a response? >>>> All CoAP endpoints are expected to implement all transport and the pick of transport is just because of the middlebox baggage? >> In discouraging the use of several URI schemes for CoAP, one review recommended a series of steps, in which CoAP over UDP is MTI: Always try UDP first, and if no response is forthcoming, to then resort to TCP. Port 80/443 would always default to CoAP over ws or wss without needing to engage UDP initially. Obviously this has repercussions regarding protocol and application logic. > Right. It also does not work for one of the main applications of CoAP-TCP: traversal of NATs with short UDP binding lifetimes. The probe will always work through such a NAT, but then the observation relationships won鈥檛, because the UDP binding is gone by the time the notification needs to be transferred. > > (Of course, a server can work around this issue by providing a URI with an IP address that listens on TCP only, so the UDP probe fails. This likely outcome is wrong on so many levels鈥) > > [鈥 As a sort of last-resort measure, I can envisage working out a server-initiated protocol negotiation mechanism requiring the client to switch transports, or to a lesser extent, presenting a preference order for the alternate transport that should be subsequently used. >> Conversely, it must also be recognised that right now, some mechanisms are bound to the "coap" and "coaps" URI schemes, such as using ".well-known/". Minting new CoAP URI schemes would also require extending this to support them. > Not sure I get this point. We did add well-known support for the new URI schemes in -07. Yes, -07 did support it. My (fairly trivial) point was aimed at possible provisional registrations made by implementers for convenience. Regards, Bill From nobody Fri Jun 23 17:12:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859D212EB0A; Fri, 23 Jun 2017 17:07:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: core@ietf.org, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149826282854.7840.15692372741545552917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 17:07:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] core - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 99 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 00:07:10 -0000 Dear Jaime Jimenez, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. core Session 1 (2:00:00) Friday, Afternoon Session II 1150-1320 Room Name: Congress Hall III size: 250 --------------------------------------------- core Session 2 (2:00:00) Wednesday, Morning Session I 0930-1200 Room Name: Congress Hall I size: 250 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Constrained RESTful Environments Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Jaime Jimenez Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: cbor httpbis artarea t2trg ace lpwan 6lo roll teep Second Priority: dnssd saag irtfopen 6tisch netconf netmod sacm Third Priority: lwig detnet quic v6ops opsarea cfrg icnrg People who must be present: Carsten Bormann Alexey Melnikov Jaime Jimenez Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please also avoid any IoT related BOFs that might come up. *Preferred* pairing: Tue/Thu or other space between; Friday is also no problem. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Jun 24 01:58:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA86129413; Sat, 24 Jun 2017 01:58:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rCkuqw2dVVni; Sat, 24 Jun 2017 01:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76C331242F5; Sat, 24 Jun 2017 01:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5O8wFiL024355; Sat, 24 Jun 2017 10:58:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DC7F3A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.243.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3wvq3V5hTTz3Z2D; Sat, 24 Jun 2017 10:58:14 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2DB0474F-900D-42FD-B2C5-F61F396B751C@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 10:58:14 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 519987494.231328-86f3961023977340577980ee6f18d1af Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <26509597-910C-48F9-B004-86322AD123F3@tzi.org> References: <2DB0474F-900D-42FD-B2C5-F61F396B751C@tzi.org> To: ace , core , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF99: "FINAL" AGENDA X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 08:58:21 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda, now based on the "FINAL" AGENDA for IETF99. Compared to the last week's draft agenda, dnssd and acme were moved. (It is likely that there still will be some more changes after this "FINAL" agenda.) ACE people are going to miss DISPATCH (ARTAREA) again -- not sure if there would have been be any discussions relevant to Constrained Nodes/Networks in ARTAREA, but it doesn't make sense with this scheduling. CORE people will miss both ANIMA and (in-week) ICNRG. ROLL people will miss SAAG, ouch. And LPWAN is on the second half of QUIC. All no disasters, AFAICS, but not pain-free. All times are CEST (UTC+0200). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) SATURDAY, July 15, 2017 0900-1700 ACM, IRTF & ISOC Applied Networking Research Workshop 2017 = (Registration Required) - Athens/Barcelona 0900-1800 T2TRG Interim Meeting - Berlin/Brussels 0900-2100 IETF Hackathon - Chez Louis SUNDAY, July 16, 2017 0900-1600 T2TRG Interim Meeting - Berlin/Brussels 0900-1600 IETF Hackathon - Chez Louis 1345-1445 IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking - Congress Hall III 1345-1445 IRTF Overview - Congress Hall I 1345-1445 TEEP Tutorial - Karlin I/II 1600-1700 Newcomers' Meet and Greet (open to Newcomers, WG chairs and = Mentors only) - Garden Terrace 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Grand Hilton Ballroom & Foyer MONDAY, July 17, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H III ART dispatch Dispatch WG - 09:30-11:30 Grand Hilton BR INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Congress H I SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Congress H III SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG - 11:30-12:00 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Karlin I/II INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Grand Hilton BR INT homenet Home Networking WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Karlin I/II ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Berlin/Brussels SEC tokbind Token Binding WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Athens/Barcel. RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Grand Hilton BR TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting TUESDAY, July 18, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H II OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Congress H I TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Grand Hilton BR IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Berlin/Brussels SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Congress H I TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Karlin I/II INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Congress H I IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum WEDNESDAY, July 19, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Congress H I ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Karlin I/II IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Congress H III OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Congress H II RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Grand Hilton BR SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Karlin III TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Grand Hilton BR ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Congress H III IRTF panrg Proposed Path Aware Networking Congress H II RTG ideas IDentity Enabled Networks BOF 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Grand Hilton BR ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Athens/Barcel. INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG THURSDAY, July 20, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Grand Hilton BR INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Congress H II IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Congress H I RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Berlin/Brussels ART ice Interactive Connectivity Establishment = WG Grand Hilton BR OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Karlin I/II RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Congress H III SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Athens/Barcel. INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG Grand Hilton BR TSV quic QUIC WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Berlin/Brussels ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Athens/Barcel. INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Karlin I/II RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Congress H III TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG FRIDAY, July 21, 2017 0930-1130 Morning Session I Karlin I/II INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Athens/Barcel. SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Karlin III SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Grand Hilton BR TSV quic QUIC WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session II Congress H III ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG From nobody Thu Jun 29 11:52:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71500129ABD; Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:52:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149876236342.27912.433851899441192288@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:52:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-senml-09.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:52:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments of the IETF. Title : Media Types for Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) Authors : Cullen Jennings Zach Shelby Jari Arkko Ari Keranen Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-core-senml-09.txt Pages : 46 Date : 2017-06-29 Abstract: This specification defines media types for representing simple sensor measurements and device parameters in the Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML). Representations are defined in JavaScript Object Notation (JSON), Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR), eXtensible Markup Language (XML), and Efficient XML Interchange (EXI), which share the common SenML data model. A simple sensor, such as a temperature sensor, could use this media type in protocols such as HTTP or CoAP to transport the measurements of the sensor or to be configured. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-senml-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/