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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:25:31 +0000
To: "Brad Schoening" <brads@coraid.com>
thread-topic: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
thread-index: Aczgy9MuXvTxN9QMSama0RUt1IvttQ==
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Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Subject: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Hello all,=20

This has been one of the long standing open issue that has been
discussed extensively.=20

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html

At the IETF 82,  WG meeting, there was a lot of discussion on this
topic,  if another requirement for Time Series of Power was required.
Please refer to the minutes of the meeting.=20

www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

On the WG meeting, there was rough consensus was to support time series
of power measurements. The mechanism to enable reporting power (push or
pull) shall need to be defined. The concern of smaller devices may not
have storage to implement is addressed by the statement i.e. the
requirements specified concern the means that the standard shall provide
and not necessarily to be implemented on all devices. =20

Currently, we have a requirement 5.5.4. Time Series of Energy values .=20

Thus the proposed requirement for Time series of Power would be the
following.=20

5.4.11. Time series of power values

The energy management standard must provide means for collecting time
series of power values for an Energy Object. A solution for collecting
the time series for an Energy Object can use the pull or push mechanism
for recovering the information.

Your thoughts/suggestions.=20


Thanks

Mouli


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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Hello all, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>This has been one of the =
long standing open issue that has been discussed extensively. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html">=
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html</a><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>At the IETF 82, &nbsp;WG =
meeting, there was a lot of discussion on this topic, &nbsp;if another =
requirement for Time Series of Power was required.&nbsp; Please refer to =
the minutes of the meeting. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt">www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>On the WG meeting, there =
was rough consensus was to support time series of power measurements. =
The mechanism to enable reporting power (push or pull) shall need to be =
defined. The concern of smaller devices may not have storage to =
implement is addressed by the statement i.e. the requirements specified =
concern the means that the standard shall provide and not necessarily to =
be implemented on all devices. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Currently, we have a =
requirement 5.5.4. Time Series of Energy values . =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Thus the proposed =
requirement for Time series of Power would be the following. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>5.4.11. Time series of =
power values<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The energy management =
standard must provide means for collecting time series of power values =
for an Energy Object. A solution for collecting the time series for an =
Energy Object can use the pull or push mechanism for recovering the =
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Your =
thoughts/suggestions. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><br>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>Mouli</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Regarding the question of measurement of directional measurement of
Energy - this was discussed at IETF 82 WG meeting.=20

Slide 10  -  http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf

Energy meters=20

*	EnergyConsumed
*	EnergyProduced
*	EnergyNet


At the WG meeting, it was proposed that to have a requirement with
directional measurement of energy to be consistent with ODVA and WG
silent majority was fine.=20
Seeking input from the WG email list.=20

Thanks
Mouli=20

5.5.5.   It is also possible to consider different meters of energy
consumption taking into  consideration the direction, one meter for
energy consumed, one meter for energy provided and the third meter for
the net, which is the sum of consumer and producer.



-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:32 PM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] draft minutes for the EMAN meeting

Dear all,

Here are our draft minutes.
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

Please send any corrections or improvements to us.

Regards, Bruce and Benoit.
_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Regarding the =
question of measurement of directional measurement of Energy - this was =
discussed at IETF</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas">82 WG meeting.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
</SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Slide 10&nbsp; =
-&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Consolas">http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf</FONT=
></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Energy =
meters</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">EnergyConsumed</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">EnergyProduced</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">EnergyNet</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">At the WG =
meeting, it was proposed that to have a requirement with directional =
measurement of energy to be consistent with ODVA and WG =
sile</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">nt =
majority was</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas"> =
fine. </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Seeking input =
from the WG email list. </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas">Thanks</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas">Mouli</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas">5.5.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">It is also possible to consider different meters =
of energy consumption taking into</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us">&nbsp;<FONT FACE=3D"Consolas"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">consideration the direction, one =
meter for energy consumed, one meter for energy provided and the third =
meter for the net, which is the sum of consumer and =
producer.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><BR>
</SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">-----Original =
Message-----<BR>
From:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org"><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Consolas">eman-bounces@ietf.org</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org]"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Consolas">[mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org]</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas"> =
On Behalf Of Benoit Claise (bclaise)<BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:32 PM<BR>
To: eman mailing list<BR>
Subject: [eman] draft minutes for the EMAN meeting</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Dear =
all,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Here are our =
draft minutes.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Consolas">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</FO=
NT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Please send =
any corrections or improvements to us.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">Regards, Bruce =
and Benoit.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Consolas">_______________________________________________</FONT><=
/SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas">eman mailing =
list</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org"><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Consolas">eman@ietf.org</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><A =
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LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Consolas">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</FONT></U></=
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To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
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References: <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A907764377@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com> <CB5166BD.146DE%brads@coraid.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:58:01 -0800
Message-ID: <CAK+eDP8aATHsmOwNi+rAHNEncEkcO47Zqxf9+0f-66miTLwOtA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] Directional metering of Energy
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I think I agree with Brad.
The language of "produced" and "consumed"
has bothered me since it was introduced, since
I don't think EMAN is making any claim about
the ultimate source or ultimate destination of
power, only its rate of transfer.  So, at a minimum,
I think the terminology is not apt for our application.

EMAN tracks power as it flows across interfaces at the
edge of devices, or to/from components.  There is
certainly a directionality in that the flow is positive
or negative.  The great majority of interfaces are
today, and likely to be in future, only one-way.

For devices with two-way power exchange with
another device, it could be modeled as a single
interface, with the power value going positive or
negative, and the energy meter then moving up
or down accordingly.  Or, the device could expose
two power interfaces, one for each direction.  The
power value would then be zero in at least one
direction at all times.

I agree that it is the management system that will
ultimately make sense of the meaning of the meter
data, and such a system would recognize each of
these implementations and act accordingly.

So, to answer Mouli's question, I think we do not
need or want the 3-part meter construction of
produced/consumed/net.  That said, a device that
wanted to most clearly align itself with ODVA could
have two meters at a power interface, one for
incoming power and the second for outgoing.
The management system would observe that
they were between the same pair of devices
and could calculate the net any time it wanted to.
Thus, we can be functionally harmonized with ODVA.

--Bruce

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Mouli,
>
> I'm confused by this proposal.  Principally, it doesn't seem to be
> consistent with the way meters today work.  Current transformer (CT) mete=
rs
> work by measuring the amount of current flowing.  Many are bi-directional=
,
> meaning they can only measure the "net" current into and out of a system.
>  Such a meter can't measure separately the "produced" energy and "consume=
d"
> energy.   You would need at least two independent meters to provide the
> data to perform that calculation.  These two (not three) meters could be
> thousands of feet apart and not directly connected to each other.
>
> Given these two meters, you could calculate all three values:
>
> Energy Produced =3D kWh of inverter meter
> Energy Consumed =3D kwh of inverter meter + kWh of utility meter
> Net Energy =3D kWh of utility meter
>
> Also, knowledge of the system topology is critical to calculating these
> values.   If you consider this same building before the solar panels were
> installed, a BMS would have a different calculation:
>
>   Energy Produced =3D 0
> Energy Consumed =3D kWh of utility meter
> Net Energy =3D Energy Consumed
>
> The utility meter doesn't know if its a 'net' meter or a 'consumption'
> meter.  Only the BMS that reads all of the meters should know that.  Thus=
,
> these values should be considered calculated values by a management syste=
m,
> not attributes read by a meter itself.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
>
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 06:57:30 -0600
> To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <
> eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: [eman] Directional metering of Energy
>
> Regarding the question of measurement of directional measurement of Energ=
y
> - this was discussed at IETF 82 WG meeting.
>
> Slide 10  -  *http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf*<http://t=
ools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf>
>
> Energy meters
>
> =C2=B7       EnergyConsumed
>
> =C2=B7       EnergyProduced
>
> =C2=B7       EnergyNet
>
> At the WG meeting, it was proposed that to have a requirement with
> directional measurement of energy to be consistent with ODVA and WG silen=
t
> majority was fine.
>
> Seeking input from the WG email list.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mouli
>
> 5.5.5.   It is also possible to consider different meters of energy
> consumption taking into  consideration the direction, one meter for
> energy consumed, one meter for energy provided and the third meter for th=
e
> net, which is the sum of consumer and producer.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: *eman-bounces@ietf.org* <eman-bounces@ietf.org> *
> [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org]* <[mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org]> On
> Behalf Of Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:32 PM
> To: eman mailing list
> Subject: [eman] draft minutes for the EMAN meeting
>
> Dear all,
>
> Here are our draft minutes.
>
> *http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt*<http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt>
>
> Please send any corrections or improvements to us.
>
> Regards, Bruce and Benoit.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> eman mailing list
>
> *eman@ietf.org* <eman@ietf.org>
>
> *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman*<https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/eman>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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I think I agree with Brad.<br>
The language of &quot;produced&quot; and &quot;consumed&quot;<br>
has bothered me since it was introduced, since<br>
I don&#39;t think EMAN is making any claim about<br>
the ultimate source or ultimate destination of<br>
power, only its rate of transfer.=C2=A0 So, at a minimum,<br>
I think the terminology is not apt for our application.<br>
<br>
EMAN tracks power as it flows across interfaces at the<br>
edge of devices, or to/from components.=C2=A0 There is<br>
certainly a directionality in that the flow is positive<br>
or negative.=C2=A0 The great majority of interfaces are<br>
today, and likely to be in future, only one-way.<br>
<br>
For devices with two-way power exchange with<br>
another device, it could be modeled as a single<br>
interface, with the power value going positive or<br>
negative, and the energy meter then moving up<br>
or down accordingly.=C2=A0 Or, the device could expose<br>
two power interfaces, one for each direction.=C2=A0 The<br>
power value would then be zero in at least one<br>
direction at all times.<br>
<br>
I agree that it is the management system that will<br>
ultimately make sense of the meaning of the meter<br>
data, and such a system would recognize each of<br>
these implementations and act accordingly.<br><br>So, to answer Mouli&#39;s=
 question, I think we do not<br>need or want the 3-part meter construction =
of<br>produced/consumed/net.=C2=A0 That said, a device that<br>wanted to mo=
st clearly align itself with ODVA could<br>
have two meters at a power interface, one for<br>incoming power and the sec=
ond for outgoing.<br>The management system would observe that<br>they were =
between the same pair of devices<br>and could calculate the net any time it=
 wanted to.<br>
Thus, we can be functionally harmonized with ODVA.<br><br>--Bruce<br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Brad Schoening <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Mouli,</div><div><br><=
/div>
<div>I&#39;m confused by this proposal. =C2=A0Principally, it doesn&#39;t s=
eem to be consistent with the way meters today work. =C2=A0Current transfor=
mer (CT) meters work by measuring the amount of current flowing. =C2=A0Many=
 are bi-directional, meaning they can only measure the &quot;net&quot; curr=
ent into and out of a system. =C2=A0Such a meter can&#39;t measure separate=
ly the &quot;produced&quot; energy and &quot;consumed&quot; energy. =C2=A0 =
You would need at least two independent meters to provide the data to perfo=
rm that calculation. =C2=A0These two (not three) meters could be thousands =
of feet apart and not directly connected to each other.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Given these two meters, you could calculate all three v=
alues:</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n>Energy Produced =3D kWh of inverter meter</div><div><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span>Energy Consumed =3D kwh of inverter meter + kWh of =
utility meter</div>
<div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Net Energy<span style=3D"=
white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>=3D kWh of utility meter</div><div><br></div=
><div>Also, knowledge of the system topology is critical to calculating the=
se values. =C2=A0 If you consider this same building before the solar panel=
s were installed, a BMS would have a different calculation:</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ener=
gy Produced =3D 0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>En=
ergy Consumed =3D kWh of utility meter</div><div><span style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span>Net Energy<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>=
=3D Energy Consumed</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>The utility meter doesn&#39;t know if its a &#39;n=
et&#39; meter or a &#39;consumption&#39; meter. =C2=A0Only the BMS that rea=
ds all of the meters should know that. =C2=A0Thus, these values should be c=
onsidered calculated values by a management system, not attributes read by =
a meter itself.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br></div></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Brad</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
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coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=
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" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
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s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:05A15E9D-8C2C-4FF2-8928-97E1DE4E43E2" alt=3D"De=
scription: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" width=
=3D"95" height=3D"46"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefi=
ning Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0=
in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-b=
ottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-=
bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> &quot;Mouli Chandramouli (mo=
ulchan)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
oulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>=
 Fri, 3 Feb 2012 06:57:30 -0600<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> &quot;Benoit Claise (bclaise)&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;, eman mailing list &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] Directional meteri=
ng of Energy<br></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><div><p di=
r=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Regarding the questi=
on of measurement of directional measurement of Energy - this was discussed=
 at IETF</font></span><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas"></font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-us"> <font face=3D"Consolas">82 WG meeting.</font></=
span><span lang=3D"en-us"> </span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D=
"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Slide 10=C2=A0 -=C2=A0</font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-us"> </span><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/ema=
n-6.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"en-us"><u><font color=3D"#0000FF" =
face=3D"Consolas">http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/slides/eman-6.pdf</font><=
/u></span><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D=
"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Energy meters</font></span><span lang=3D"en=
-us"> </span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"L=
TR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Symbol">=C2=B7<font face=3D"Courier =
New">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></font></span><span lang=3D=
"en-us"> <font face=3D"Consolas">EnergyConsumed</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Symbol">=C2=B7<font face=
=3D"Courier New">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></font> <font f=
ace=3D"Consolas">EnergyProduced</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=
=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Symbol">=C2=B7<font face=3D"Courier New">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></font> <font face=3D"Consolas">EnergyNet=
</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D=
"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consol=
as">At the WG meeting, it was proposed that to have a requirement with dire=
ctional measurement of energy to be consistent with ODVA and WG sile</font>=
</span><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">nt majority was</font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas"> fine. </font></span></p=
>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Seeking input f=
rom the WG email list. </font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us=
"><font face=3D"Consolas">Thanks</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=
=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Mouli</font></span><span lang=3D"en-us">=
 </span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D=
"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">5.5.5.=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></span><span lang=
=3D"en-us"> <font face=3D"Consolas">It is also possible to consider differe=
nt meters of energy consumption taking into</font></span><span lang=3D"en-u=
s">=C2=A0<font face=3D"Consolas"></font></span><span lang=3D"en-us"> <font =
face=3D"Consolas">consideration the direction, one meter for energy consume=
d, one meter for energy provided and the third meter for the net, which is =
the sum of consumer and producer.</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><br></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lan=
g=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Co=
nsolas">-----Original Message-----<br>
From:</font></span><span lang=3D"en-us"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:eman-boun=
ces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"en-us"><u><font color=3D"#000=
0FF" face=3D"Consolas">eman-bounces@ietf.org</font></u></span><span lang=3D=
"en-us"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas"></font></sp=
an><span lang=3D"en-us"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:eman-bounces@ietf=
.org]" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"en-us"><u><font color=3D"#0000FF" fa=
ce=3D"Consolas">[mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org]</font></u></span><span lang=
=3D"en-us"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas"> On Beha=
lf Of Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br>

Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:32 PM<br>
To: eman mailing list<br>
Subject: [eman] draft minutes for the EMAN meeting</font></span></p><p dir=
=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us=
"><font face=3D"Consolas">Dear all,</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span l=
ang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Here are our draft minutes.</font></s=
pan></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/p=
roceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"en-us"><u><=
font color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Consolas">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82=
/minutes/eman.txt</font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></a><span la=
ng=3D"en-us"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Please send any=
 corrections or improvements to us.</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span l=
ang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">Regards, Bruce and Benoit.</font></sp=
an></p><p dir=3D"LTR">
<span lang=3D"en-us"><font face=3D"Consolas">______________________________=
_________________</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"><fon=
t face=3D"Consolas">eman mailing list</font></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span=
 lang=3D"en-us"></span><a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><=
span lang=3D"en-us"><u><font color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Consolas">eman@ietf.=
org</font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-us"><=
/span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-us"></span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"en-us"><u><font colo=
r=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Consolas">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman<=
/font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-us"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-us"></spa=
n></p>
</div></div></div></div></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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From bnordman@lbl.gov  Sun Feb  5 22:51:52 2012
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
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Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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I look forward to comment from others on the mechanism to
report time-series data.

I think we can and should say that this is a convenience function
which will result in the same data result if the device were polled
at the individual intervals reported on in the time series.

While reporting transient power levels is part of EMAN, the
time-series data of usual interest in energy monitoring is
accumulated energy consumption.  We should adjust all
the time-series discussion to point to this as the values to
be reported.   The time-series data will be a series of meter
readings associated with time-stamps at regular intervals.
The average power consumed during each interval can then
be readily calculated.

Time series reporting will require some advance specification
of the duration of the time periods, and possibly time synchronisation
of those readings.  I think it reasonable for devices to only support
a single set of duration/synch settings

--Bruce

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hello all, ****
>
> This has been one of the long standing open issue that has been discussed
> extensively. ****
>
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html****
>
> At the IETF 82,  WG meeting, there was a lot of discussion on this topic,
>  if another requirement for Time Series of Power was required.  Please
> refer to the minutes of the meeting. ****
>
> www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt****
>
> On the WG meeting, there was rough consensus was to support time series of
> power measurements. The mechanism to enable reporting power (push or pull)
> shall need to be defined. The concern of smaller devices may not have
> storage to implement is addressed by the statement i.e. the requirements
> specified concern the means that the standard shall provide and not
> necessarily to be implemented on all devices.  ****
>
> Currently, we have a requirement 5.5.4. Time Series of Energy values . ***
> *
>
> Thus the proposed requirement for Time series of Power would be the
> following. ****
>
> 5.4.11. Time series of power values****
>
> The energy management standard must provide means for collecting time
> series of power values for an Energy Object. A solution for collecting the
> time series for an Energy Object can use the pull or push mechanism for
> recovering the information.****
>
> Your thoughts/suggestions. ****
>
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mouli****
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


-- 
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b15b263cda1ca04b84618df
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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I look forward to comment from others on the mechanism to<br>report time-se=
ries data.<br><br>I think we can and should say that this is a convenience =
function<br>which will result in the same data result if the device were po=
lled<br>
at the individual intervals reported on in the time series.<br><br>While re=
porting transient power levels is part of EMAN, the<br>time-series data of =
usual interest in energy monitoring is <br>accumulated energy consumption.=
=A0 We should adjust all<br>
the time-series discussion to point to this as the values to<br>be reported=
.=A0=A0 The time-series data will be a series of meter<br>readings associat=
ed with time-stamps at regular intervals.<br>The average power consumed dur=
ing each interval can then<br>
be readily calculated.<br><br>Time series reporting will require some advan=
ce specification<br>of the duration of the time periods, and possibly time =
synchronisation<br>of those readings.=A0 I think it reasonable for devices =
to only support<br>
a single set of duration/synch settings<br><br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Hello all, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">This has been one of the long standing open issue tha=
t has been discussed extensively. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><=
a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg0079=
2.html</a><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">At the IETF 82, =A0WG meeting, there was a lot of dis=
cussion on this topic, =A0if another requirement for Time Series of Power w=
as required.=A0 Please refer to the minutes of the meeting. <u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes=
/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">On the WG meeting, there was rough consensus was to s=
upport time series of power measurements. The mechanism to enable reporting=
 power (push or pull) shall need to be defined. The concern of smaller devi=
ces may not have storage to implement is addressed by the statement i.e. th=
e requirements specified concern the means that the standard shall provide =
and not necessarily to be implemented on all devices. =A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">Currently, we have a requirement 5.5.4. Time Series o=
f Energy values . <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Thus the p=
roposed requirement for Time series of Power would be the following. <u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">5.4.11. Time series of power values<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">The energy management standard must provide me=
ans for collecting time series of power values for an Energy Object. A solu=
tion for collecting the time series for an Energy Object can use the pull o=
r push mechanism for recovering the information.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">Your thoughts/suggestions. <u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot=
;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
Thanks<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font><=
/span></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;se=
rif&quot;">Mouli</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</font></span></div></div><br>_____________________________________________=
__<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--047d7b15b263cda1ca04b84618df--

From Minoru.Teraoka@jp.yokogawa.com  Mon Feb  6 02:33:16 2012
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From: <Minoru.Teraoka@jp.yokogawa.com>
To: <bnordman@lbl.gov>, <moulchan@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:33:09 +0900
Thread-Topic: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Hi all,

I'm not sure that there is a need to use interval monitoring in parallel.
But I would say that the need that 'period' and 'total' are used together
may exist.  I think that total energy monitoring does not have to exist
with other time-series monitoring.
How about separating 'Total Energy' from EoEnergyIntervalEntry?
It seems reasonable for small devices to monitor energy consumption without
using IntervalEntry.

Best regards,
Minoru

--
Minoru Teraoka
Yokogawa Electric Corporation


From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Nordman
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 3:52 PM
To: Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

I look forward to comment from others on the mechanism to
report time-series data.

I think we can and should say that this is a convenience function
which will result in the same data result if the device were polled
at the individual intervals reported on in the time series.

While reporting transient power levels is part of EMAN, the
time-series data of usual interest in energy monitoring is
accumulated energy consumption.  We should adjust all
the time-series discussion to point to this as the values to
be reported.   The time-series data will be a series of meter
readings associated with time-stamps at regular intervals.
The average power consumed during each interval can then
be readily calculated.

Time series reporting will require some advance specification
of the duration of the time periods, and possibly time synchronisation
of those readings.  I think it reasonable for devices to only support
a single set of duration/synch settings

--Bruce
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <moulchan@cisco.com<mailto:moulchan@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hello all,
This has been one of the long standing open issue that has been discussed extensively.
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html
At the IETF 82,  WG meeting, there was a lot of discussion on this topic,  if another requirement for Time Series of Power was required.  Please refer to the minutes of the meeting.
www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt>
On the WG meeting, there was rough consensus was to support time series of power measurements. The mechanism to enable reporting power (push or pull) shall need to be defined. The concern of smaller devices may not have storage to implement is addressed by the statement i.e. the requirements specified concern the means that the standard shall provide and not necessarily to be implemented on all devices.
Currently, we have a requirement 5.5.4. Time Series of Energy values .
Thus the proposed requirement for Time series of Power would be the following.
5.4.11. Time series of power values
The energy management standard must provide means for collecting time series of power values for an Energy Object. A solution for collecting the time series for an Energy Object can use the pull or push mechanism for recovering the information.
Your thoughts/suggestions.

Thanks
Mouli

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org<mailto:eman@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman



--
Bruce Nordman
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman<http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
BNordman@LBL.gov<mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DJA link=3Dblue vlink=
=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 col=
or=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi all, <o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-seri=
f";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm not sure=
 that there is a need to use interval monitoring in parallel.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But I would say that the need that 'period' and =
'total' are used together<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>may exist.&=
nbsp; I think that total energy monitoring does not have to exist<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" fa=
ce=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>with other time-series monitoring.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How about separating 'Total Energy' from EoEnerg=
yIntervalEntry?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=
=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It seems reasonable f=
or small devices to monitor energy consumption without <o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial=
><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-ser=
if";color:#1F497D'>using IntervalEntry.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN=
-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 c=
olor=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Minoru<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=
=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span la=
ng=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'>Minoru Teraoka<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yokogawa Ele=
ctric Corporation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font si=
ze=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","=
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'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 4.0pt'><div><=
div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0=
mm 0mm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DE=
N-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weigh=
t:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN=
-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> eman-boun=
ces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:b=
old'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bruce Nordman<br><b><span style=3D'font-weight=
:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 06, 2012 3:52 PM<br><b><span style=
=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)<br><b><s=
pan style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> eman@ietf.org<br><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [eman] Time series of power=
 measurements<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I look forward to comment from others o=
n the mechanism to<br>report time-series data.<br><br>I think we can and sh=
ould say that this is a convenience function<br>which will result in the sa=
me data result if the device were polled<br>at the individual intervals rep=
orted on in the time series.<br><br>While reporting transient power levels =
is part of EMAN, the<br>time-series data of usual interest in energy monito=
ring is <br>accumulated energy consumption.&nbsp; We should adjust all<br>t=
he time-series discussion to point to this as the values to<br>be reported.=
&nbsp;&nbsp; The time-series data will be a series of meter<br>readings ass=
ociated with time-stamps at regular intervals.<br>The average power consume=
d during each interval can then<br>be readily calculated.<br><br>Time serie=
s reporting will require some advance specification<br>of the duration of t=
he time periods, and possibly time synchronisation<br>of those readings.&nb=
sp; I think it reasonable for devices to only support<br>a single set of du=
ration/synch settings<br><br>--Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Mouli Chandramou=
li (moulchan) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hell=
o all, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New=
 Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>This has been one of =
the long standing open issue that has been discussed extensively. <o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span la=
ng=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-a=
rchive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.or=
g/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00792.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>At the IETF 82, &nbsp;WG meeting, there was a lot of =
discussion on this topic, &nbsp;if another requirement for Time Series of P=
ower was required.&nbsp; Please refer to the minutes of the meeting. <o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span=
 lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/pro=
ceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">www.ietf.org/proceedings/82=
/minutes/eman.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 fac=
e=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On the =
WG meeting, there was rough consensus was to support time series of power m=
easurements. The mechanism to enable reporting power (push or pull) shall n=
eed to be defined. The concern of smaller devices may not have storage to i=
mplement is addressed by the statement i.e. the requirements specified conc=
ern the means that the standard shall provide and not necessarily to be imp=
lemented on all devices. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font si=
ze=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t'>Currently, we have a requirement 5.5.4. Time Series of Energy values . <=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thus the proposed requirement=
 for Time series of Power would be the following. <o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>5.4.11. Time series of power values<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-U=
S style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The energy management standard must provide me=
ans for collecting time series of power values for an Energy Object. A solu=
tion for collecting the time series for an Energy Object can use the pull o=
r push mechanism for recovering the information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Your thoughts/suggestions. <o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font s=
ize=3D3 color=3D"#888888" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 f=
ace=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>_=
______________________________________________<br>eman mailing list<br><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/eman</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><spa=
n lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br><br clear=3Dall><br>-- <br></=
span></font><b><font size=3D4><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;=
font-weight:bold'>Bruce Nordman</span></font></b><span lang=3DEN-US><br><fo=
nt color=3D"#000099"><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley Nation=
al Laboratory</span></font><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" t=
arget=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@=
LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_92A5C8A0221B31479EB7913C528ACC590171C77F9DCCEXMAIL01jpy_--

From dromasca@avaya.com  Mon Feb  6 09:26:29 2012
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Thread-Topic: New WG co-chair
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: [eman] New WG co-chair
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Hi,

As you know Benoit was selected as the new co-AD for Operations and=20
Management and will replace me at IETF-83. Because of the load and in=20
order to avoid any potential source of conflicts of interest he is=20
giving up the responsibilities of co-chair of the EMAN WG. In=20
consultation with Benoit we decided to ask Nevil Brownlee to take over=20
this responsibility, and Nevil graciously accepted. Nevil has a rich=20
IETF experience and extended knowledge in many Internet-related=20
fields, and I am sure that together with Bruce will do a fine work
to turn EMAN into a success.

Congratulations to Benoit and Nevil and good luck.

Regards,

Dan



From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Mon Feb  6 23:15:36 2012
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From: <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Thread-Topic: [eman] Directional metering of Energy
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From dkh@juniper.net  Tue Feb  7 18:15:49 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: "quittek@neclab.edu" <quittek@neclab.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:13:17 -0800
Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the fu=
ll eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:

1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but =
immediately available)"

This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately av=
ailable, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typ=
ically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sle=
ep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a=
 "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability.=20

It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.

2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in per=
formance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteri=
stics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that =
device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,=
b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected=
 in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced p=
ower states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.


--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA

From jortiz81@gmail.com  Wed Feb  8 19:11:46 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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All,

Getting into the specifics of timeseries measurement logging can easily get
a bit complicated.  My concern in recommending a mechanism is
distinguishing between three  underlying frequencies implied when a
measurement is taken: the frequency of the underlying phenomenon, the
sampling frequency, and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it
will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.

Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so
we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging
window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
minimizing value wrap-around.

Time synchronization is important, but it really depends on the measurement
report latency and the underlying frequency of the phenomenon.  If the
thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will not matter
as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.  If it
changes quickly, we'll probably want summary statistics anyway and a window
over which those statistics were calculated.

Best,

Jorge

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All,<div><br></div><div>Getting into the specifics of timeseries measuremen=
t logging can easily get a bit complicated. =A0My concern in recommending a=
 mechanism is distinguishing between three =A0underlying frequencies implie=
d when a measurement is taken: the frequency of the underlying phenomenon, =
the sampling frequency, and the report frequency. =A0Without this distincti=
on, it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption =
measure.</div>


<div><br></div><div>Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonica=
lly increasing, so we will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce me=
ntioned an averaging window size should be included in the report. =A0This =
would be useful for minimizing value wrap-around.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Time synchronization is important, but it really depend=
s on the measurement report latency and the underlying frequency of the phe=
nomenon. =A0If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronizatio=
n will not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time =
window. =A0If it changes quickly, we&#39;ll probably want summary statistic=
s anyway and a window over which those statistics were calculated.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Jorge</div>

--0016368e2a6b23ff5404b87f5f37--

From dkh@juniper.net  Wed Feb  8 21:27:33 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: Jorge Ortiz <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:25:32 -0800
Thread-Topic: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Jorge,

Please see below.

> the frequency of the underlying phenomenon

I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at least =
until the quantum-level resolution is reached )

> the sampling frequency

This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.=20
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.

> and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be difficult=
 to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.

I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.

While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those figu=
res are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.

Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging w=
indow size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for mini=
mizing value wrap-around.

> If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will not=
 matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window. =20

Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.

For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.=20

However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.=

From bnordman@lbl.gov  Wed Feb  8 23:36:34 2012
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Subject: [eman] Power Locator
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At the last IETF I presented a draft on the concept of a "Power Locator"
feature.
I am interested to know if anyone knows of any relevant IP claims for what
the RFC addresses.

The draft is at:
  http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nordman-power-locator/

The slides are at:
  http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/opsarea-1.pdf

Minutes of the presentation are at:
  http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/opsarea.txt

The abstract in the RFC is:

                             Power Locator
                     draft-nordman-power-locator-00
Abstract

   This specification addresses how to request that a device should
   enter a "power locator" mode for a limited period of time.  The mode
   involves a device cycling between a low and high power level in a
   predictable manner so that a power metering device upstream in the
   power distribution system can sense the signal and so determine where
   the device draws its power from.  This will be useful in many types
   of buildings, particularly data centers and large commercial
   buildings.  This draft addresses operation of the device carrying out
   the request, but not detailed operation of the device that makes the
   request and interprets the results.

   This draft is an initial discussion document to generate feedback and
   improvement.


Thank you,

--Bruce

-- 
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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At the last IETF I presented a draft on the concept of a &quot;Power Locato=
r&quot; feature.<br>I am interested to know if anyone knows of any relevant=
 IP claims for what<br>the RFC addresses.<br><br>The draft is at:<br>=A0 <a=
 href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nordman-power-locator/">http=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nordman-power-locator/</a><br>
<br>The slides are at:<br>=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82=
/slides/opsarea-1.pdf">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/opsarea-1.=
pdf</a><br><br>Minutes of the presentation are at:<br>
=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/opsarea.txt" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/opsarea.txt</a><br=
><br>The abstract in the RFC is:<br>
<br><pre>                             Power Locator
                     draft-nordman-power-locator-00

<span class=3D"m_h">Abstract</span>

   This specification addresses how to request that a device should
   enter a &quot;power locator&quot; mode for a limited period of time.  Th=
e mode
   involves a device cycling between a low and high power level in a
   predictable manner so that a power metering device upstream in the
   power distribution system can sense the signal and so determine where
   the device draws its power from.  This will be useful in many types
   of buildings, particularly data centers and large commercial
   buildings.  This draft addresses operation of the device carrying out
   the request, but not detailed operation of the device that makes the
   request and interprets the results.

   This draft is an initial discussion document to generate feedback and
   improvement.</pre><br>
Thank you,<br><br>--Bruce<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>B=
ruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berk=
eley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordma=
n" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--f46d04190db436faf904b883125b--

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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Daniel Kharitonov" <dkh@juniper.net>, <quittek@neclab.edu>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Hello Daniel,

Reply inline.=20

Thanks
Mouli

-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Daniel Kharitonov
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:43 AM
To: quittek@neclab.edu
Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05

Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the
full eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:


2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in
performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the
characteristics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing
that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected
consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in
those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

YCM>> Currently from a requirements point of view, for every entity, we
have requirements to report the power state of an entity, (req. 5.2.1),=20
YCM>> its power consumption (req. 5.4.1) and statistics for each power
state (req. 5.2.6.)
YCM>> There are notifications when power states changes occur (req
5.2.8) and from the time stamps of notifications, it should be possible
to estimate the transition times.=20
YCM>> As of now, we do not have requirements on the transition times
from a power state to another state.=20

Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in
reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.

YCM>> The energy management standard provides the data and I would think
the network manager should make the trade-offs from the information ?=20

--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA
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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Jorge Ortiz" <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>, <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Hello Bruce and Jorge,

=20

Regarding the Time Series of Power and Energy measurements, there was a
lot of discussion at IETF82 meeting, expressing the need for this.=20

=20

Fundamentally, the issue addressed is that if the time between
successive polling of a same device is too long, which can happen in a
large network.=20

In that setting,  between the long polling cycles, some of power peaks
can be lost. =20

So, it was suggested that it would be useful to store a small time
series of power measurements at a device.=20

The mechanism for reporting the time series can be based on push or
pull. =20

=20

Jorge,=20

=20

Your point is well taken. =20

=20

Presently, the MIB module   -
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01
reports the underlying frequency is of Alternating current and internal
sampling rate of power and the aggregating window (fixed period, sliding
window, ...). =20

Based on the revised requirements for time series reporting and the
mechanisms,  additional parameters to report can be considered. =20

=20

Thanks

Mouli

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jorge Ortiz
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:41 AM
To: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

=20

All,

=20

Getting into the specifics of timeseries measurement logging can easily
get a bit complicated.  My concern in recommending a mechanism is
distinguishing between three  underlying frequencies implied when a
measurement is taken: the frequency of the underlying phenomenon, the
sampling frequency, and the report frequency.  Without this distinction,
it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption
measure.

=20

Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing,
so we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an
averaging window size should be included in the report.  This would be
useful for minimizing value wrap-around.

=20

Time synchronization is important, but it really depends on the
measurement report latency and the underlying frequency of the
phenomenon.  If the thing being measured changes slowly, then
synchronization will not matter as much as long as readings lie within a
reasonable time window.  If it changes quickly, we'll probably want
summary statistics anyway and a window over which those statistics were
calculated.

=20

Best,

=20

Jorge


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hello Bruce and Jorge,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regarding the Time Series of Power and Energy measurements, there was =
a lot of discussion at IETF82 meeting, expressing the need for this. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Fundamentally, the issue addressed is that if the time between =
successive polling of a same device is too long, which can happen in a =
large network. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In that setting, &nbsp;between the long polling cycles, some of power =
peaks can be lost. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So, it was suggested that it would be useful to store a small time =
series of power measurements at a device. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The mechanism for reporting the time series can be based on push or =
pull.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jorge, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Your point is well taken.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Presently, the MIB module&nbsp;&nbsp; - <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-=
01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01</=
a> reports the underlying frequency is of Alternating current and =
internal sampling rate of power and the aggregating window (fixed =
period, sliding window, &#8230;).&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Based on the revised requirements for time series reporting and the =
mechanisms, &nbsp;additional parameters to report can be considered. =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Jorge Ortiz<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:41 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> eman@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series =
of power measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Getting into the specifics of timeseries measurement =
logging can easily get a bit complicated. &nbsp;My concern in =
recommending a mechanism is distinguishing between three =
&nbsp;underlying frequencies implied when a measurement is taken: the =
frequency of the underlying phenomenon, the sampling frequency, and the =
report frequency. &nbsp;Without this distinction, it will be difficult =
to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption =
measure.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Another concern is that energy consumed in a =
monotonically increasing, so we will run into wrap-out issues. =
&nbsp;That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging window size should be =
included in the report. &nbsp;This would be useful for minimizing value =
wrap-around.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Time synchronization is important, but it really =
depends on the measurement report latency and the underlying frequency =
of the phenomenon. &nbsp;If the thing being measured changes slowly, =
then synchronization will not matter as much as long as readings lie =
within a reasonable time window. &nbsp;If it changes quickly, we'll =
probably want summary statistics anyway and a window over which those =
statistics were calculated.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jorge<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Daniel,

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

> Jorge,
>
> Please see below.
>
> > the frequency of the underlying phenomenon
>
> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at least
> until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
>

The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlying
combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a typical power
trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for example, is quite
different from the power trace for a lamp.


>
> > the sampling frequency
>
> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
> seconds or so.
>

Seems reasonable.


>
> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>
> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
> feature.
>

Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped
power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the
traces.


>
> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
> billing and management purposes.
>
> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so
> we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging
> window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
> minimizing value wrap-around.
>
> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.
>
> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at
> all.
>
> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or
> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a
> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
> activated.
>
> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very
> important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters
> good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.

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Daniel,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:25 PM, D=
aniel Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net">d=
kh@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Jorge,<br>
<br>
Please see below.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; the frequency of the underlying phenomenon<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency,=
 at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set=
 of underlying combination of frequencies. =A0Doing any signal analysis on =
a typical power trace will show it. =A0The power trace of a laptop, for exa=
mple, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; the sampling frequency<br>
<br>
This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Seems reasonable.</div><div>=A0</d=
iv>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; and the report frequency. =A0Without this distinction, it will be diff=
icult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.<br>
<br>
</div>I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenienc=
e feature.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure. =A0Where the aggregate=
 is computed is not as important if timestamped power readings are recorded=
, since the aggregate can be computed from the traces.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution, those =
figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.<br>
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging=
 window size should be included in the report. =A0This would be useful for =
minimizing value wrap-around.<br>


<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, th=
en synchronization will not matter as much as long as readings lie within a=
 reasonable time window.<br>
<br>
</div>Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matte=
r at all.<br>
<br>
For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.<br>


<br>
However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.</blockquote></div>

<br>

--20cf303f65208c462304b887a640--

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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Cc: quittek@neclab.edu, eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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--f46d043892c5089bd004b88a574f
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Hi Daniel,

Relevant to your questions, you might want to look at our IEEE-ISTO
Printer Working Group candidate standards for Printers and MFDs:

"Power Management Model for Imaging Systems v1.0"
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspower10-20110214-5106.4.pdf

"PWG Imaging System Power MIB v1.0"
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.pdf

"PWG-IMAGING-SYSTEM-POWER-MIB" - ASN.1 source
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.mib

The PowerLog group defines a FIFO list of state transitions
with time stamps.

The PowerTrap group defines a notification to report state
transitions.

The PowerSupport group defines objects about the capabilities
of the device (or component/subunit) in a given state.

The PowerTransition group defines objects for nominal state
transition times between any two supported power states.

The Power[Calendar/Timeout/Event] groups define objects for
configured power transitions for device or component based
on calendar (like IETF Schedule MIB), timeout, or event
triggers.

BTW - This MIB uses the standard DMTF CIM power states,
but allows vendor extension substates (e.g., fine-grained
Suspend substates).

And this MIB defines explicit light sleep (Standby) and deep
sleep (Suspend) states and their standard behaviors - note that
Bruce Nordman does not like the use of these terms, but all
Printers/MFDs that support power management have always
made this distinction in the their private MIBs and embedded
web servers.

Cheers,
- Ira (editor of the PWG power standards)


Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> Reply inline.
>
> Thanks
> Mouli
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Daniel Kharitonov
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:43 AM
> To: quittek@neclab.edu
> Cc: eman@ietf.org
> Subject: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
>
> Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the
> full eman discussions archive.
> I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:
>
>
> 2) Section 5.2 "Power State"
>
> Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in
> performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the
> characteristics of available states along same lines.
>
> For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing
> that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected
> consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in
> those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.
>
> YCM>> Currently from a requirements point of view, for every entity, we
> have requirements to report the power state of an entity, (req. 5.2.1),
> YCM>> its power consumption (req. 5.4.1) and statistics for each power
> state (req. 5.2.6.)
> YCM>> There are notifications when power states changes occur (req
> 5.2.8) and from the time stamps of notifications, it should be possible
> to estimate the transition times.
> YCM>> As of now, we do not have requirements on the transition times
> from a power state to another state.
>
> Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in
> reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.
>
> YCM>> The energy management standard provides the data and I would think
> the network manager should make the trade-offs from the information ?
>
> --
> Daniel Kharitonov
> Juniper Networks Inc
> 1194 N Mathilda Ave
> Sunnyvale CA
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>

--f46d043892c5089bd004b88a574f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Daniel,<br><br>Relevant to your questions, you might want to look at our=
 IEEE-ISTO <br>Printer Working Group candidate standards for Printers and M=
FDs:<br><br>&quot;Power Management Model for Imaging Systems v1.0&quot;<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspower10-20110214-510=
6.4.pdf">ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspower10-20110214-5106.=
4.pdf</a><br><br>&quot;PWG Imaging System Power MIB v1.0&quot;<br><a href=
=3D"ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.=
pdf">ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5=
.pdf</a><br>
<br>&quot;PWG-IMAGING-SYSTEM-POWER-MIB&quot; - ASN.1 source<br><a href=3D"f=
tp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.mib">=
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.mib<=
/a><br>
<br>The PowerLog group defines a FIFO list of state transitions<br>with tim=
e stamps.<br><br>The PowerTrap group defines a notification to report state=
<br>transitions.<br><br>The PowerSupport group defines objects about the ca=
pabilities<br>
of the device (or component/subunit) in a given state.<br><br>The PowerTran=
sition group defines objects for nominal state<br>transition times between =
any two supported power states.<br><br>The Power[Calendar/Timeout/Event] gr=
oups define objects for<br>
configured power transitions for device or component based<br>on calendar (=
like IETF Schedule MIB), timeout, or event<br>triggers.<br><br>BTW - This M=
IB uses the standard DMTF CIM power states,<br>but allows vendor extension =
substates (e.g., fine-grained<br>
Suspend substates).<br><br>And this MIB defines explicit light sleep (Stand=
by) and deep<br>sleep (Suspend) states and their standard behaviors - note =
that<br>Bruce Nordman does not like the use of these terms, but all<br>
Printers/MFDs that support power management have always<br>made this distin=
ction in the their private MIBs and embedded<br>web servers.<br><br>Cheers,=
<br>- Ira (editor of the PWG power standards)<br><br><br clear=3D"all">Ira =
McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer =
Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted =
Mobility Solutions WG<br>Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>IETF D=
esignated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D=
"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites=
.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br><a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" hre=
f=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target=3D"_blank">http://si=
tes.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroo=
fmusic@gmail.com</a><br>Winter=A0 579 Park Place=A0 Saline, MI=A0 48176=A0 =
734-944-0094<br>Summer=A0 PO Box 221=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=A0 906-494-2=
434<div style=3D"display:inline">
</div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></d=
iv><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Mouli Ch=
andramouli (moulchan) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisc=
o.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
Hello Daniel,<br>
<br>
Reply inline.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Mouli<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] O=
n Behalf Of<br>
Daniel Kharitonov<br>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:43 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:quittek@neclab.edu">quittek@neclab.edu</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05<br>
<br>
Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the<br=
>
full eman discussions archive.<br>
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">2) Section 5.2 &quot;Power State&quot;<br>
<br>
Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in<br>
performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the<br>
characteristics of available states along same lines.<br>
<br>
For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing<br>
that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected<br>
consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in<br>
those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.<br>
<br>
</div>YCM&gt;&gt; Currently from a requirements point of view, for every en=
tity, we<br>
have requirements to report the power state of an entity, (req. 5.2.1),<br>
YCM&gt;&gt; its power consumption (req. 5.4.1) and statistics for each powe=
r<br>
state (req. 5.2.6.)<br>
YCM&gt;&gt; There are notifications when power states changes occur (req<br=
>
5.2.8) and from the time stamps of notifications, it should be possible<br>
to estimate the transition times.<br>
YCM&gt;&gt; As of now, we do not have requirements on the transition times<=
br>
from a power state to another state.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in<br>
reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.<br=
>
<br>
</div>YCM&gt;&gt; The energy management standard provides the data and I wo=
uld think<br>
the network manager should make the trade-offs from the information ?<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
Daniel Kharitonov<br>
Juniper Networks Inc<br>
1194 N Mathilda Ave<br>
Sunnyvale CA<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><div style id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></=
div>

--f46d043892c5089bd004b88a574f--

From dkh@juniper.net  Thu Feb  9 11:12:31 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: Jorge Ortiz <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:11:14 -0800
Thread-Topic: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Hi Jorge,


DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at le=
ast until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlying =
combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a typical power t=
race will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for example, is quite diff=
erent from the power trace for a lamp.

I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy foot=
print profile.
However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less interesting=
 to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to billing.

Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and t=
ry to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific limi=
t.
In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.

What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload i=
n the same period.
This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are sure=
 the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.



---------------------------------

> the sampling frequency

This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.

Seems reasonable.


> and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be difficult=
 to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.

I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.

Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped p=
ower readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the tr=
aces.


While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those figu=
res are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.

Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging w=
indow size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for mini=
mizing value wrap-around.

> If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will not=
 matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.

Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.

For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.

However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.

From dkh@juniper.net  Thu Feb  9 11:31:51 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:29:57 -0800
Thread-Topic: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Hi Ira,

Thanks for the links.

IM> The PowerTransition group defines objects for nominal state
IM> transition times between any two supported power states.

Yes, this is what's relevant because estimate based on timestamps is reacti=
ve figure.
If an NMS operator makes a decision about changing the power states, she sh=
ould at least have idea of nominal tradeoffs before the state is engaged.


> And this MIB defines explicit light sleep (Standby) and deep
> sleep (Suspend) states and their standard behaviors=20

I don't think we can cover the entire range of ICT devices merely based on =
definitions for printers.
In fact, while being strictly non-realtime systems, imaging devices might b=
e merely a subset of the proposed scope of effort.

Generally speaking, an abstract ICT system may have N explicit power states=
, in each of which certain minimal characteristics (performance, QoS etc) a=
re preserved.
For instance, if a device has states ranked according to {performance, tran=
sition time to full capacity} tuple, state {100,0} would be immediately ava=
ilable, 100% operational, while {0, 10s} may correspond to printer's standb=
y and {0,100s) may correspond to printer's "suspend".

Along the same lines, a realtime device may never have {0, XX} states defin=
ed but sport a range of {XX, YY} modes suited to various modes of usage.



________________________________________
From: Ira McDonald [blueroofmusic@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:16 AM
To: Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan); Ira McDonald
Cc: Daniel Kharitonov; quittek@neclab.edu; eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05

Hi Daniel,

Relevant to your questions, you might want to look at our IEEE-ISTO
Printer Working Group candidate standards for Printers and MFDs:

"Power Management Model for Imaging Systems v1.0"
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspower10-20110214-5106.4.pdf

"PWG Imaging System Power MIB v1.0"
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.pdf

"PWG-IMAGING-SYSTEM-POWER-MIB" - ASN.1 source
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-wimspowermib10-20110214-5106.5.mib

The PowerLog group defines a FIFO list of state transitions
with time stamps.

The PowerTrap group defines a notification to report state
transitions.

The PowerSupport group defines objects about the capabilities
of the device (or component/subunit) in a given state.

The PowerTransition group defines objects for nominal state
transition times between any two supported power states.

The Power[Calendar/Timeout/Event] groups define objects for
configured power transitions for device or component based
on calendar (like IETF Schedule MIB), timeout, or event
triggers.

BTW - This MIB uses the standard DMTF CIM power states,
but allows vendor extension substates (e.g., fine-grained
Suspend substates).

And this MIB defines explicit light sleep (Standby) and deep
sleep (Suspend) states and their standard behaviors - note that
Bruce Nordman does not like the use of these terms, but all
Printers/MFDs that support power management have always
made this distinction in the their private MIBs and embedded
web servers.

Cheers,
- Ira (editor of the PWG power standards)


Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com<mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <moulchan@cis=
co.com<mailto:moulchan@cisco.com>> wrote:

Hello Daniel,

Reply inline.

Thanks
Mouli

-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:eman-boun=
ces@ietf.org<mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
Daniel Kharitonov
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:43 AM
To: quittek@neclab.edu<mailto:quittek@neclab.edu>
Cc: eman@ietf.org<mailto:eman@ietf.org>
Subject: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05

Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the
full eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:


2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in
performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the
characteristics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing
that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected
consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in
those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

YCM>> Currently from a requirements point of view, for every entity, we
have requirements to report the power state of an entity, (req. 5.2.1),
YCM>> its power consumption (req. 5.4.1) and statistics for each power
state (req. 5.2.6.)
YCM>> There are notifications when power states changes occur (req
5.2.8) and from the time stamps of notifications, it should be possible
to estimate the transition times.
YCM>> As of now, we do not have requirements on the transition times
from a power state to another state.

Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in
reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.

YCM>> The energy management standard provides the data and I would think
the network manager should make the trade-offs from the information ?

--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA
_______________________________________________
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From jortiz81@gmail.com  Thu Feb  9 14:39:19 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

> Hi Jorge,
>
>
> DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at
> least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
> JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyin=
g
> combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a typical power
> trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for example, is quite
> different from the power trace for a lamp.
>
> I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy
> footprint profile.
> However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
> interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
> billing.
>

I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't miss too
many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
over extended periods.


>
> Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and
> try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific
> limit.
> In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several
> seconds per sample at the best.
>
> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload
> in the same period.
> This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are
> sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.
>

Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?



>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> > the sampling frequency
>
> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
> seconds or so.
>
> Seems reasonable.
>
>
> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>
> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
> feature.
>
> Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped
> power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the
> traces.
>
>
> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
> billing and management purposes.
>
> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so
> we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averagin=
g
> window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
> minimizing value wrap-around.
>
> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time windo=
w.
>
> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at
> all.
>
> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or
> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn =
a
> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
> activated.
>
> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very
> important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters
> good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.
>

--20cf303b4229badc8404b88fae06
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel =
Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net">dkh@jun=
iper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
<br>
DK&gt; I don&#39;t think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency=
, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )<br>
JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyi=
ng combination of frequencies. =A0Doing any signal analysis on a typical po=
wer trace will show it. =A0The power trace of a laptop, for example, is qui=
te different from the power trace for a lamp.<br>


<br>
I don&#39;t think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy =
footprint profile.<br>
However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less interesting=
 to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to billing.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>I see. =A0That&#39;s a fair point. =A0My main c=
oncern was that we don&#39;t miss too many peaks so that it impacts our ass=
essment of the total energy consumed over extended periods.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and t=
ry to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific limi=
t.<br>
In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.<br>
<br>
What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload i=
n the same period.<br>
This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are sure=
 the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=A0</div><div><br></di=
v>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; the sampling frequency<br>
<br>
This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br>
<br>
Seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; and the report frequency. =A0Without this distinction, it will be diff=
icult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.<br>
<br>
I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.<br>
<br>
Sure. =A0Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped=
 power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the =
traces.<br>
<br>
<br>
While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution, those =
figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.<br>
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.<br>
<br>
Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging=
 window size should be included in the report. =A0This would be useful for =
minimizing value wrap-around.<br>


<br>
&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will =
not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.=
<br>
<br>
Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.<br>
<br>
For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.<br>


<br>
However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--20cf303b4229badc8404b88fae06--

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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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I want to express a concern that the title of this thread is =93time series
of power measurements=94 =96 in my work with energy use and efficiency, tim=
e
series data are always energy measurements.  These can be expressed as
average power over each period of course, but these are derived =96 the bas=
ic
data are energy.



Mouli, in his original message, noted that the current requirements draft
speaks to both time series of power and time series of energy.  I suggest
that we need only the energy time series.  A power time series would be
just a periodic snapshot of current power and not give visibility into what
happened in between.  An EMS should simply request an interval appropriate
to its needs.  In his second post, Mouli notes that =93between long cycles,
some =85 power peaks can be lost=94.  Peaks will not be lost in energy
measures, but would be in power measures, which is why energy is so much
more useful.  The ODVA documents refer to energy =93odometers=94 =96 which
applies to energy but not power =96 so they are thinking along the same lin=
es.



So, I propose that the drafts incorporate the following conclusions:

--Time series of energy only

--Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the same as the
result if they were polled individually at the time stamps reported

--Only support a single duration/synch set.  How many time periods can be
reported is up to the device =96 from zero to a  large number.


Bruce

(as contributor)


On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it
> impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
>
> This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the devic=
e
> itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals).
>
> Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too
> often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or on=
ce
> every day.
>
> DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful
> payload in the same period.
> JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>
> This point becomes relevant when we think about active power state
> management in the large ICT domain.
>
> Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN,
> routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
> transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
>
> To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both
> historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
> unexpected traffic loss.
>
> As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the Enterprise.
>
> In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can
> transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent
> capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3=
az
> or similar).
>
> At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possibly
> trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
>
> Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30
> and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?
>
> To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the
> possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data
> peaks can be very shortlived.
>
> Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in reduced
> power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report this back t=
o
> NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a wrong judgeme=
nt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From*: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]
> *Sent*: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
> *To*: Daniel Kharitonov
> *Cc*: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org>
> *Subject*: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>wrote=
:
>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>>
>> DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at
>> least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
>> JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of
>> underlying combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a
>> typical power trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for
>> example, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.
>>
>> I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy
>> footprint profile.
>> However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
>> interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
>> billing.
>>
>
> I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't miss too
> many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
> over extended periods.
>
>
>>
>> Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here an=
d
>> try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific
>> limit.
>> In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several
>> seconds per sample at the best.
>>
>> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payloa=
d
>> in the same period.
>> This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are
>> sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.
>>
>
> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>> > the sampling frequency
>>
>> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
>> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
>> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
>> seconds or so.
>>
>> Seems reasonable.
>>
>>
>> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
>> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>>
>> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
>> feature.
>>
>> Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestampe=
d
>> power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from th=
e
>> traces.
>>
>>
>> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
>> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
>> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
>> billing and management purposes.
>>
>> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, s=
o
>> we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averagi=
ng
>> window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
>> minimizing value wrap-around.
>>
>> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
>> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time wind=
ow.
>>
>> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter a=
t
>> all.
>>
>> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or
>> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn=
 a
>> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
>> activated.
>>
>> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is ver=
y
>> important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters
>> good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>I want to express a concern that the
title of this thread is =E2=80=9Ctime series of power measurements=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=93 in my work with
energy use and efficiency, time series data are always energy
measurements.<span>=C2=A0 </span>These can be expressed as
average power over each period of course, but these are derived =E2=80=93 t=
he basic
data are energy.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>=C2=A0</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>Mouli, in his original message, noted
that the current requirements draft speaks to both time series of power and
time series of energy.<span>=C2=A0 </span>I suggest that we
need only the energy time series.<span>=C2=A0 </span>A
power time series would be just a periodic snapshot of current power and no=
t
give visibility into what happened in between.<span>=C2=A0
</span>An EMS should simply request an interval appropriate to its needs.<s=
pan>=C2=A0 </span>In his second post, Mouli notes that =E2=80=9Cbetween
long cycles, some =E2=80=A6 power peaks can be lost=E2=80=9D.<span>=C2=A0
</span>Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would be in power
measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.<span>=C2=A0 </span>Th=
e ODVA documents refer to energy
=E2=80=9Codometers=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 which applies to energy but not power=
 =E2=80=93 so they are thinking
along the same lines.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>=C2=A0</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>So, I propose that the drafts
incorporate the following conclusions:</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Time series of energy only</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Adopt the principle that the time
series data should be the same as the result if they were polled individual=
ly
at the time stamps reported</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Only support a single duration/synch set.<span>=C2=A0 </span>How=
 many time periods can be reported is up
to the device =E2=80=93 from zero to a<span>=C2=A0 </span>large
number.</span></font></p><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
" class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><font><span></span></font></p><p style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font><span>Bruce</spa=
n></font></p>
<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>(as contributor)<br></span></font></p>





<font><br style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net">dkh@juniper.net</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">
<br>Hi Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My main concern was that we don&#39;t miss too =
many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed <=
br><br>This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the =
device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals)=
.<br>
<br>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too o=
ften. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or once =
every day.<br><br>DK&gt; What is likely *more* interesting to us is the beh=
avior of useful payload in the same period.<br>
JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? <br><br>This point becom=
es relevant when we think about active power state management in the large =
ICT domain.<br><br>Power-managing real-time systems like transit network de=
vices (RAN, routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if t=
hey transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<b=
r>
<br>To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both hist=
orical and current utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected =
traffic loss.<br><br>As an example, let&#39;s look at day of life of a swit=
ch in the Enterprise.<br>
<br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can=
 transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent capaci=
ty and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3az or si=
milar).<br>
<br>At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possib=
ly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now t=
he question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 p=
ercent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br>
<br>To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the p=
ossibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data pea=
ks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still happen whe=
n switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect over=
load and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity sho=
uld we made a wrong judgement.<br>
<br><br><br><br> <br></font><br>=C2=A0<br>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<font style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;">
<b>From</b>: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>]
<br><b>Sent</b>: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel =
Kharitonov
<br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br><div class=3D"im"><b>Subject</b>: Re: [eman] Time series of power measu=
rements
<br></div></font>=C2=A0<br></div>
<br><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
<br>
DK&gt; I don&#39;t think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency=
, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )<br>
JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyi=
ng combination of frequencies. =C2=A0Doing any signal analysis on a typical=
 power trace will show it. =C2=A0The power trace of a laptop, for example, =
is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.<br>



<br>
I don&#39;t think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy =
footprint profile.<br>
However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less interesting=
 to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to billing.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>I see. =C2=A0That&#39;s a fair point. =C2=A0My =
main concern was that we don&#39;t miss too many peaks so that it impacts o=
ur assessment of the total energy consumed over extended periods.</div>


<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=E2=80=93Shannon problem here=
 and try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specifi=
c limit.<br>
In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.<br>
<br>
What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload i=
n the same period.<br>
This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are sure=
 the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div>


<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------<br>
<div><div><br>
&gt; the sampling frequency<br>
<br>
This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br>
<br>
Seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; and the report frequency. =C2=A0Without this distinction, it will be d=
ifficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.<br>
<br>
I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.<br>
<br>
Sure. =C2=A0Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestam=
ped power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from t=
he traces.<br>
<br>
<br>
While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution, those =
figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.<br>
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.<br>
<br>
Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues. =C2=A0That said, Bruce mentioned an averag=
ing window size should be included in the report. =C2=A0This would be usefu=
l for minimizing value wrap-around.<br>



<br>
&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will =
not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.=
<br>
<br>
Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.<br>
<br>
For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.<br>



<br>
However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Daniel,

Thanks for elaborating.  Part of my initial confusion is terminology and
statement of goals.  The driving goal here is to use the timeseries energy
data to improve capacity planning -- both static and dynamic.

>From this falls out the question: where data collection and processing
should take place to maintain good accuracy on our view of energy
consumption.  Some sub-questions fall out from there:

1)  What data should be collected by the meter?
2)  What processing should the meter do with the collected data?
3)  What service should the meter provide to consumers?

The answer to these questions is fundamentally driven by the goal.  Now,
this is quite complicated in the networking sense because the demand and
QoS requirements dictate the resources allocated.  Furthermore, we want to
provide a general solution, so we can support a wide range of applications.

Providing energy statistics is useful, as the underlying metered sampling
rate is probably high enough to capture transitions in power-draw (i.e.
fast enough to capture the peaks and valleys), however, it's too fast to be
reported.  The natural solution here, then, is to compute summarizing
statistics that integrate power over time, over a pre-defined time window.
 That answers the first 2 questions.  Power data should be collected
locally and it should be accumulated in a register over a moving time
interval.

Now, to address the service(s) provided we have to keep in mind the
applications we want to build.  Going back to the goal, we want to do
static and dynamic provisioning.  To do this we need energy consumed over
time, I presume.  If that is indeed the case, then perhaps we can define a
service specification for obtaining the last energy window calculation.  We
can extend the service to report the value each time it is changed.

Jorge



On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it
> impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
>
> This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the devic=
e
> itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals).
>
> Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too
> often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or on=
ce
> every day.
>
> DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful
> payload in the same period.
> JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>
> This point becomes relevant when we think about active power state
> management in the large ICT domain.
>
> Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN,
> routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
> transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
>
> To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both
> historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
> unexpected traffic loss.
>
> As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the Enterprise.
>
> In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can
> transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent
> capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3=
az
> or similar).
>
> At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possibly
> trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
>
> Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30
> and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?
>
> To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the
> possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data
> peaks can be very shortlived.
>
> Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in reduced
> power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report this back t=
o
> NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a wrong judgeme=
nt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From*: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]
> *Sent*: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
> *To*: Daniel Kharitonov
> *Cc*: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org>
> *Subject*: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>wrote=
:
>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>>
>> DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at
>> least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
>> JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of
>> underlying combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a
>> typical power trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for
>> example, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.
>>
>> I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy
>> footprint profile.
>> However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
>> interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
>> billing.
>>
>
> I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't miss too
> many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
> over extended periods.
>
>
>>
>> Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here an=
d
>> try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific
>> limit.
>> In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several
>> seconds per sample at the best.
>>
>> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payloa=
d
>> in the same period.
>> This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are
>> sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.
>>
>
> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>> > the sampling frequency
>>
>> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
>> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
>> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
>> seconds or so.
>>
>> Seems reasonable.
>>
>>
>> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
>> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>>
>> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
>> feature.
>>
>> Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestampe=
d
>> power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from th=
e
>> traces.
>>
>>
>> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
>> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
>> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
>> billing and management purposes.
>>
>> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, s=
o
>> we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averagi=
ng
>> window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
>> minimizing value wrap-around.
>>
>> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
>> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time wind=
ow.
>>
>> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter a=
t
>> all.
>>
>> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or
>> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn=
 a
>> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
>> activated.
>>
>> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is ver=
y
>> important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters
>> good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.
>>
>
>

--20cf303f6520def34304b8951f9d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Daniel,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for elaborating.=A0 Part of my=
 initial confusion is terminology and statement of goals. =A0The driving go=
al here is to use the timeseries energy data to improve capacity planning -=
- both static and dynamic.</div>

<div><br></div><div>From this falls out the question: where data collection=
 and processing should take place to maintain good accuracy on our view of =
energy consumption. =A0Some sub-questions fall out from there:</div><div>

<br></div><div>1) =A0What data should be collected by the meter?</div><div>=
2) =A0What processing should the meter do with the collected data?</div><di=
v>3) =A0What service should the meter provide to consumers?</div><div><br><=
/div>

<div>The answer to these questions is fundamentally driven by the goal. =A0=
Now, this is quite complicated in the networking sense because the demand a=
nd QoS requirements dictate the resources allocated. =A0Furthermore, we wan=
t to provide a general solution, so we can support a wide range of applicat=
ions.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Providing energy statistics is useful, as the underlyin=
g metered sampling rate is probably high enough to capture transitions in p=
ower-draw (i.e. fast enough to capture the peaks and valleys), however, it&=
#39;s too fast to be reported. =A0The natural solution here, then, is to co=
mpute summarizing statistics that integrate power over time, over a pre-def=
ined time window. =A0That answers the first 2 questions. =A0Power data shou=
ld be collected locally and it should be accumulated in a register over a m=
oving time interval. =A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>Now, to address the service(s) provided we have to keep=
 in mind the applications we want to build. =A0Going back to the goal, we w=
ant to do static and dynamic provisioning. =A0To do this we need energy con=
sumed over time, I presume. =A0If that is indeed the case, then perhaps we =
can define a service specification for obtaining the last energy window cal=
culation. =A0We can extend the service to report the value each time it is =
changed.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Jorge</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net">dkh@juniper.net</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">
<br>Hi Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My main concern was that we don&#39;t miss too =
many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed <=
br><br>This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the =
device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals)=
.<br>

<br>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too o=
ften. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or once =
every day.<br><br>DK&gt; What is likely *more* interesting to us is the beh=
avior of useful payload in the same period.<br>

JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? <br><br>This point becom=
es relevant when we think about active power state management in the large =
ICT domain.<br><br>Power-managing real-time systems like transit network de=
vices (RAN, routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if t=
hey transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<b=
r>

<br>To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both hist=
orical and current utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected =
traffic loss.<br><br>As an example, let&#39;s look at day of life of a swit=
ch in the Enterprise.<br>

<br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can=
 transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent capaci=
ty and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3az or si=
milar).<br>

<br>At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possib=
ly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now t=
he question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 p=
ercent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br>

<br>To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the p=
ossibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data pea=
ks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still happen whe=
n switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect over=
load and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity sho=
uld we made a wrong judgement.<br>

<br><br><br><br> <br></font><br>=A0<br>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<font style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;">
<b>From</b>: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>]
<br><b>Sent</b>: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel =
Kharitonov
<br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br><div class=3D"im"><b>Subject</b>: Re: [eman] Time series of power measu=
rements
<br></div></font>=A0<br></div>
<br><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
<br>
DK&gt; I don&#39;t think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency=
, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )<br>
JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyi=
ng combination of frequencies. =A0Doing any signal analysis on a typical po=
wer trace will show it. =A0The power trace of a laptop, for example, is qui=
te different from the power trace for a lamp.<br>




<br>
I don&#39;t think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy =
footprint profile.<br>
However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less interesting=
 to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to billing.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>I see. =A0That&#39;s a fair point. =A0My main c=
oncern was that we don&#39;t miss too many peaks so that it impacts our ass=
essment of the total energy consumed over extended periods.</div>



<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and t=
ry to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific limi=
t.<br>
In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.<br>
<br>
What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload i=
n the same period.<br>
This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are sure=
 the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=A0</div><div><br></di=
v>



<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------<br>
<div><div><br>
&gt; the sampling frequency<br>
<br>
This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br>
<br>
Seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; and the report frequency. =A0Without this distinction, it will be diff=
icult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.<br>
<br>
I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.<br>
<br>
Sure. =A0Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped=
 power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the =
traces.<br>
<br>
<br>
While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution, those =
figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.<br>
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.<br>
<br>
Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging=
 window size should be included in the report. =A0This would be useful for =
minimizing value wrap-around.<br>




<br>
&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will =
not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.=
<br>
<br>
Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.<br>
<br>
For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.<br>




<br>
However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf303f6520def34304b8951f9d--

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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov> wrote:

> I want to express a concern that the title of this thread is =93time seri=
es
> of power measurements=94 =96 in my work with energy use and efficiency, t=
ime
> series data are always energy measurements.  These can be expressed as
> average power over each period of course, but these are derived =96 the b=
asic
> data are energy.
>

Assuming we are measuring power and integrating over time, then energy
reporting should be the service abstraction provided.


>
>
> Mouli, in his original message, noted that the current requirements draft
> speaks to both time series of power and time series of energy.  I suggest
> that we need only the energy time series.  A power time series would be
> just a periodic snapshot of current power and not give visibility into wh=
at
> happened in between.  An EMS should simply request an interval
> appropriate to its needs.  In his second post, Mouli notes that =93betwee=
n
> long cycles, some =85 power peaks can be lost=94.  Peaks will not be lost=
 in
> energy measures, but would be in power measures, which is why energy is s=
o
> much more useful.  The ODVA documents refer to energy =93odometers=94 =96=
 which
> applies to energy but not power =96 so they are thinking along the same l=
ines.
>
>
>
> So, I propose that the drafts incorporate the following conclusions:
>
> --Time series of energy only
>
> --Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the same as the
> result if they were polled individually at the time stamps reported
>
> --Only support a single duration/synch set.  How many time periods can be
> reported is up to the device =96 from zero to a  large number.
>

Perhaps as part of the service specification, we can also provide
instantaneous power readings, of the last measured power level.

Jorge



>
> Bruce
>
> (as contributor)
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote=
:
>
>>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>> JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it
>> impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
>>
>> This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the
>> device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different interva=
ls).
>>
>> Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too
>> often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or o=
nce
>> every day.
>>
>> DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful
>> payload in the same period.
>> JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>>
>> This point becomes relevant when we think about active power state
>> management in the large ICT domain.
>>
>> Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN,
>> routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
>> transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
>>
>> To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both
>> historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
>> unexpected traffic loss.
>>
>> As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the Enterprise.
>>
>> In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can
>> transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent
>> capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.=
3az
>> or similar).
>>
>> At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possibl=
y
>> trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
>>
>> Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30
>> and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?
>>
>> To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the
>> possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data
>> peaks can be very shortlived.
>>
>> Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in reduced
>> power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report this back =
to
>> NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a wrong judgem=
ent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From*: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]
>> *Sent*: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
>> *To*: Daniel Kharitonov
>> *Cc*: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org>
>> *Subject*: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>wrot=
e:
>>
>>> Hi Jorge,
>>>
>>>
>>> DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, a=
t
>>> least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
>>> JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of
>>> underlying combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a
>>> typical power trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for
>>> example, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.
>>>
>>> I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy
>>> footprint profile.
>>> However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
>>> interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
>>> billing.
>>>
>>
>> I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't miss too
>> many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consume=
d
>> over extended periods.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here a=
nd
>>> try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific
>>> limit.
>>> In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several
>>> seconds per sample at the best.
>>>
>>> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful
>>> payload in the same period.
>>> This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are
>>> sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.
>>>
>>
>> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>>
>>> > the sampling frequency
>>>
>>> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
>>> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
>>> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
>>> seconds or so.
>>>
>>> Seems reasonable.
>>>
>>>
>>> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
>>> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>>>
>>> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
>>> feature.
>>>
>>> Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if
>>> timestamped power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be
>>> computed from the traces.
>>>
>>>
>>> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
>>> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
>>> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
>>> billing and management purposes.
>>>
>>> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing,
>>> so we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an
>>> averaging window size should be included in the report.  This would be
>>> useful for minimizing value wrap-around.
>>>
>>> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
>>> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time win=
dow.
>>>
>>> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off o=
r
>>> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to lear=
n a
>>> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
>>> activated.
>>>
>>> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is
>>> very important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error
>>> counters good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>

--20cf300e4fbf41788804b8952b13
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Bruce Nordman <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





















<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>I want to express a concern that the
title of this thread is =93time series of power measurements=94 =96 in my w=
ork with
energy use and efficiency, time series data are always energy
measurements.<span>=A0 </span>These can be expressed as
average power over each period of course, but these are derived =96 the bas=
ic
data are energy.</span></font></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Assuming=
 we are measuring power and integrating over time, then energy reporting sh=
ould be the service abstraction provided.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">



<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>=A0</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>Mouli, in his original message, noted
that the current requirements draft speaks to both time series of power and
time series of energy.<span>=A0 </span>I suggest that we
need only the energy time series.<span>=A0 </span>A
power time series would be just a periodic snapshot of current power and no=
t
give visibility into what happened in between.<span>=A0
</span>An EMS should simply request an interval appropriate to its needs.<s=
pan>=A0 </span>In his second post, Mouli notes that =93between
long cycles, some =85 power peaks can be lost=94.<span>=A0
</span>Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would be in power
measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.<span>=A0 </span>The O=
DVA documents refer to energy
=93odometers=94 =96 which applies to energy but not power =96 so they are t=
hinking
along the same lines.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>=A0</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>So, I propose that the drafts
incorporate the following conclusions:</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Time series of energy only</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Adopt the principle that the time
series data should be the same as the result if they were polled individual=
ly
at the time stamps reported</span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>--Only support a single duration/synch set.<span>=A0 </span>How ma=
ny time periods can be reported is up
to the device =96 from zero to a<span>=A0 </span>large
number.</span></font></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Perhaps as part o=
f the service specification, we can also provide instantaneous power readin=
gs, of the last measured power level.</div><div><br></div><div>Jorge</div>

<div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><font><span></=
span></font></p>

<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>Bruce</span></font></p>
<p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt><span>(as contributor)<br></span></font></p>





<font><br style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM=
, Daniel Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net=
" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><font sty=
le=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:#1f497d">
<br>Hi Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My main concern was that we don&#39;t miss too =
many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed <=
br><br>This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the =
device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals)=
.<br>


<br>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too o=
ften. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or once =
every day.<br><br>DK&gt; What is likely *more* interesting to us is the beh=
avior of useful payload in the same period.<br>


JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? <br><br>This point becom=
es relevant when we think about active power state management in the large =
ICT domain.<br><br>Power-managing real-time systems like transit network de=
vices (RAN, routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if t=
hey transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<b=
r>


<br>To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both hist=
orical and current utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected =
traffic loss.<br><br>As an example, let&#39;s look at day of life of a swit=
ch in the Enterprise.<br>


<br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can=
 transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent capaci=
ty and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3az or si=
milar).<br>


<br>At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possib=
ly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now t=
he question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 p=
ercent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br>


<br>To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the p=
ossibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data pea=
ks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still happen whe=
n switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect over=
load and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity sho=
uld we made a wrong judgement.<br>


<br><br><br><br> <br></font><br>=A0<br>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<font style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;">
<b>From</b>: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>]
<br><b>Sent</b>: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel =
Kharitonov
<br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br><div><b>Subject</b>: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
<br></div></font>=A0<br></div>
<br><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 A=
M, Daniel Kharitonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
<br>
DK&gt; I don&#39;t think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency=
, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )<br>
JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyi=
ng combination of frequencies. =A0Doing any signal analysis on a typical po=
wer trace will show it. =A0The power trace of a laptop, for example, is qui=
te different from the power trace for a lamp.<br>





<br>
I don&#39;t think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy =
footprint profile.<br>
However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less interesting=
 to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to billing.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>I see. =A0That&#39;s a fair point. =A0My main c=
oncern was that we don&#39;t miss too many peaks so that it impacts our ass=
essment of the total energy consumed over extended periods.</div>




<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and t=
ry to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific limi=
t.<br>
In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.<br>
<br>
What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload i=
n the same period.<br>
This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are sure=
 the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=A0</div><div><br></di=
v>




<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------<br>
<div><div><br>
&gt; the sampling frequency<br>
<br>
This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>
However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br>
<br>
Seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; and the report frequency. =A0Without this distinction, it will be diff=
icult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.<br>
<br>
I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience feat=
ure.<br>
<br>
Sure. =A0Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped=
 power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the =
traces.<br>
<br>
<br>
While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution, those =
figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.<br>
Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for bil=
ling and management purposes.<br>
<br>
Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so w=
e will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce mentioned an averaging=
 window size should be included in the report. =A0This would be useful for =
minimizing value wrap-around.<br>





<br>
&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will =
not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time window.=
<br>
<br>
Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at a=
ll.<br>
<br>
For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or si=
milar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn a br=
oader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated=
.<br>





<br>
However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very i=
mportant to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters good=
 enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________=
<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</=
span><br>

<a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/e=
a/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" tar=
get=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D=
"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

--20cf300e4fbf41788804b8952b13--

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From: Jorge Ortiz <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:15:00 +0900
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Hi John,

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 9:54 AM, John Parello (jparello) <jparello@cisco.co=
m
> wrote:

> Not expressing an opinion either way but I just want to make it clear for
> the discussion.****
>
> ** **
>
> At the ODVA we used the analogy of power=3Dspeed and energy=3Ddistance.**=
**
>
> ** **
>
> So here=92s two series of power and energy readings (BTW Both series of
> readings misses spikes in the intervals.)
>
****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Interval    Power   Energy****
>
> 0                0W         0kwh****
>
> 1            100W    500kwh****
>
> 2            120W    600kwh****
>
> 3            200W   1000kwh****
>
> 4            150W   1350kwh****
>
> 5            100W   1500kwh****
>
> ** **
>
> Are we saying that the power series (speed) is not useful and only the
> energy series (distance) is useful?
>

That's the claim, yes.  Instantaneous power readings may miss peaks/valleys
unless the sampling rate is high enough.


> ****
>
> ** **
>
> What about devices that cannot implement  energy and can only report thei=
r
> power ?
>

That's a good point.  However, I still think local energy calculations
should be made at the meter if possible.  If it's already collecting power
data, it might as well integrate over time.


> ****
>
> What about devices that can only report their power based on estimates an=
d
> cannot report energy, do you exclude them from time series data then as
> well?
>

That's actually why I think there should be an instantaneous power
reporting service; to handle such cases.

Jorge



> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Jp****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Bruce Nordman
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 PM
> *To:* Daniel Kharitonov
> *Cc:* jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu; eman@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements****
>
> ** **
>
> I want to express a concern that the title of this thread is =93time seri=
es
> of power measurements=94 =96 in my work with energy use and efficiency, t=
ime
> series data are always energy measurements.  These can be expressed as
> average power over each period of course, but these are derived =96 the b=
asic
> data are energy.****
>
>  ****
>
> Mouli, in his original message, noted that the current requirements draft
> speaks to both time series of power and time series of energy.  I suggest
> that we need only the energy time series.  A power time series would be
> just a periodic snapshot of current power and not give visibility into wh=
at
> happened in between.  An EMS should simply request an interval appropriat=
e
> to its needs.  In his second post, Mouli notes that =93between long cycle=
s,
> some =85 power peaks can be lost=94.  Peaks will not be lost in energy
> measures, but would be in power measures, which is why energy is so much
> more useful.  The ODVA documents refer to energy =93odometers=94 =96 whic=
h
> applies to energy but not power =96 so they are thinking along the same l=
ines.
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> So, I propose that the drafts incorporate the following conclusions:****
>
> --Time series of energy only****
>
> --Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the same as the
> result if they were polled individually at the time stamps reported****
>
> --Only support a single duration/synch set.  How many time periods can be
> reported is up to the device =96 from zero to a  large number.****
>
> ** **
>
> Bruce****
>
> (as contributor)****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net> wrote=
:
> ****
>
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it
> impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
>
> This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the devic=
e
> itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals).
>
> Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too
> often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or on=
ce
> every day.
>
> DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful
> payload in the same period.
> JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?
>
> This point becomes relevant when we think about active power state
> management in the large ICT domain.
>
> Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN,
> routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
> transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
>
> To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both
> historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
> unexpected traffic loss.
>
> As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the Enterprise.
>
> In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any user can
> transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percent
> capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3=
az
> or similar).
>
> At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possibly
> trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
>
> Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30
> and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?
>
> To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the
> possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data
> peaks can be very shortlived.
>
> Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in reduced
> power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report this back t=
o
> NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a wrong judgeme=
nt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ****
>
> *From*: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]
> *Sent*: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
> *To*: Daniel Kharitonov
> *Cc*: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org> ****
>
> *Subject*: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements ****
>
>  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
>
> DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying frequency, at
> least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
> JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyin=
g
> combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a typical power
> trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for example, is quite
> different from the power trace for a lamp.
>
> I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat energy
> footprint profile.
> However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
> interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
> billing.****
>
> ** **
>
> I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't miss too
> many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed
> over extended periods.****
>
>  ****
>
>
> Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96Shannon problem here and
> try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific
> limit.
> In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several
> seconds per sample at the best.
>
> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload
> in the same period.
> This is related to fact that we can only change power states if we are
> sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.****
>
> ** **
>
> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------****
>
>
> > the sampling frequency
>
> This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.
> However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that
> often; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10
> seconds or so.
>
> Seems reasonable.
>
>
> > and the report frequency.  Without this distinction, it will be
> difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption measure.
>
> I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience
> feature.
>
> Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped
> power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the
> traces.
>
>
> While every device will have it's own minimal update resolution, those
> figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estimates.
> Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful for
> billing and management purposes.
>
> Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so
> we will run into wrap-out issues.  That said, Bruce mentioned an averagin=
g
> window size should be included in the report.  This would be useful for
> minimizing value wrap-around.
>
> > If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will
> not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time windo=
w.
>
> Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not matter at
> all.
>
> For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off or
> similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn =
a
> broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states
> activated.
>
> However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very
> important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters
> good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.****
>
> ** **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman****
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943****
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi John,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 9:54 AM,=
 John Parello (jparello) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jparello@c=
isco.com">jparello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Not expressing an opinio=
n either way but I just want to make it clear for the discussion.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;color:#1f497d">At the ODVA we used the analogy of power=3Dspeed and ener=
gy=3Ddistance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;color:#1f497d">So here=92s two series of power and energy readings (BTW =
Both series of readings misses spikes in the intervals.)</span>=A0</p>

</div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"=
 link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Interval=A0=A0=A0 Power=A0=A0 Ener=
gy<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0W=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A00kwh<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">1=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 100W=A0=A0=A0 500kwh<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">2=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 120W=A0=A0=A0 600kwh<u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">3=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0200W=A0=A0 1000kwh<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">4=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 150W=A0=A0 1350kwh<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">5=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 100W=A0=A0 1500kwh<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;color:#1f497d">Are we saying that the power series (speed) is not useful=
 and only the energy series (distance) is useful?</span></p>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s the claim, yes. =A0=
Instantaneous power readings may miss peaks/valleys unless the sampling rat=
e is high enough.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">What =
about devices that cannot implement =A0energy and can only report their pow=
er ?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s a go=
od point. =A0However, I still think local energy calculations should be mad=
e at the meter if possible. =A0If it&#39;s already collecting power data, i=
t might as well integrate over time.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">What =
about devices that can only report their power based on estimates and canno=
t report energy, do you exclude them from time series data then as well?</s=
pan></p>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s actually why I thin=
k there should be an instantaneous power reporting service; to handle such =
cases.</div><div><br></div><div>Jorge</div><div><br></div><div>=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Jp<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> <a href=
=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Nordman<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> Daniel Khari=
tonov<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a></span></p>

<div><div class=3D"h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series of power =
measurements<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I want to express a c=
oncern that the title of this thread is =93time series of power measurement=
s=94 =96 in my work with energy use and efficiency, time series data are al=
ways energy measurements.=A0 These can be expressed as average power over e=
ach period of course, but these are derived =96 the basic data are energy.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mouli, in his=
 original message, noted that the current requirements draft speaks to both=
 time series of power and time series of energy.=A0 I suggest that we need =
only the energy time series.=A0 A power time series would be just a periodi=
c snapshot of current power and not give visibility into what happened in b=
etween.=A0 An EMS should simply request an interval appropriate to its need=
s.=A0 In his second post, Mouli notes that =93between long cycles, some =85=
 power peaks can be lost=94.=A0 Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, =
but would be in power measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.=
=A0 The ODVA documents refer to energy =93odometers=94 =96 which applies to=
 energy but not power =96 so they are thinking along the same lines.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So, I propose=
 that the drafts incorporate the following conclusions:<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">--Time series of energy only<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;">--Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the s=
ame as the result if they were polled individually at the time stamps repor=
ted<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">--Only support a single duration/synch set.=A0 How many ti=
me periods can be reported is up to the device =96 from zero to a=A0 large =
number.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Bruce<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">(as contributor)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitono=
v &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><br>H=
i Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My main concern was that we don&#39;t miss too many =
peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed <br><b=
r>

This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the device =
itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different intervals).<br><b=
r>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous snapshots too oft=
en. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once every hour or once ev=
ery day.<br>

<br>DK&gt; What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of usefu=
l payload in the same period.<br>JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on thi=
s point? <br><br>This point becomes relevant when we think about active pow=
er state management in the large ICT domain.<br>

<br>Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN, rou=
ters, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they transcend i=
nto wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<br><br>To plan a=
nd assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both historical and cu=
rrent utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected traffic loss.=
<br>

<br>As an example, let&#39;s look at day of life of a switch in the Enterpr=
ise.<br><br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any =
user can transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100 percen=
t capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime (e.g. 802.3=
az or similar).<br>

<br>At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that possib=
ly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now t=
he question - if we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 p=
ercent capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br>

<br>To know this, we must have collected this data before to validate the p=
ossibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data pea=
ks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still happen whe=
n switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect over=
load and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity sho=
uld we made a wrong judgement.<br>

<br><br><br><br><br></span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><div style=3D"bor=
der:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">

<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;">From</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>=
] <br>

<b>Sent</b>: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel Khar=
itonov <br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">em=
an@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman=
@ietf.org</a>&gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p>

<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Subject</span></b><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">: =
Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements <u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;seri=
f&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

<div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;">On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">Hi Jorge,<br><br><br>DK&gt; I don&#39;t think the con=
sumption of energy has underlying frequency, at least until the quantum-lev=
el resolution is reached )<br>

JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of underlyi=
ng combination of frequencies. =A0Doing any signal analysis on a typical po=
wer trace will show it. =A0The power trace of a laptop, for example, is qui=
te different from the power trace for a lamp.<br>

<br>I don&#39;t think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat ene=
rgy footprint profile.<br>However, the details of that complex aperiodic pr=
ocess are less interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meani=
ngful to billing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;">I see. =A0That&#39;s a fair point. =A0My main concern was tha=
t we don&#39;t miss too many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the=
 total energy consumed over extended periods.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist=96=
Shannon problem here and try to collect samples with frequency above the ce=
rtain system-specific limit.<br>

In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of several seconds=
 per sample at the best.<br><br>What is likely *more* interesting to us is =
the behavior of useful payload in the same period.<br>This is related to fa=
ct that we can only change power states if we are sure the certain minimal =
QoS agreements are reached.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

</blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>

</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>

</div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padd=
ing:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&qu=
ot;"><br>

<br><br>---------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>&gt; the sampling frequency<br><br>This is a fun=
ction of integrated PSU sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>

However, the operating system itself does not poll the registers that often=
; it is more common to have a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or=
 so.<br><br>Seems reasonable.<br><br><br>&gt; and the report frequency. =A0=
Without this distinction, it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the to=
tal power-consumption measure.<br>

<br>I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly a convenience =
feature.<br><br>Sure. =A0Where the aggregate is computed is not as importan=
t if timestamped power readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be co=
mputed from the traces.<br>

<br><br>While every device will have it&#39;s own minimal update resolution=
, those figures are quite low and not interesting for energy savings estima=
tes.<br>Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be more useful=
 for billing and management purposes.<br>

<br>Another concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, =
so we will run into wrap-out issues. =A0That said, Bruce mentioned an avera=
ging window size should be included in the report. =A0This would be useful =
for minimizing value wrap-around.<br>

<br>&gt; If the thing being measured changes slowly, then synchronization w=
ill not matter as much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time win=
dow.<br><br>Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it may not=
 matter at all.<br>

<br>For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due to fan on/off o=
r similar events are not very interesting. It is more interesting to learn =
a broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activ=
ated.<br>

<br>However, please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is ve=
ry important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters =
good enough to approximate usage pattern with power states.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>

</div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>

_______________________________________________<br>eman mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br><br clear=3D=
"all"><br>-- <br></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Bruce Nordman</span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>

<span style=3D"color:#000099">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><=
br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.go=
v/ea/nordman</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">B=
Nordman@LBL.gov</a><br>

<a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-4=
86-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" targe=
t=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote>

</div><br>

--20cf3011de0d0eecc204b8953705--

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Thread-Topic: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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References: <CAFK_QRKmb=KjXx=22uLCCLzyqqtub-hkDQDTBSU4H2ZM9CTUtg@mail.gmail.com><14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967E3916C@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net><CAK+eDP_y1vmBr-MWkYd2twwDd3q2-Z6P3Z+d+y5+VQncULLFtA@mail.gmail.com><EDCAE188ADBDC045AB6E7BC54D532C8A10A499EE@xmb-sjc-21b.amer.cisco.com> <CAFK_QRKGUuO==TopQpEPdTg_bpUfg_Vb3x9MjpiYRJnMsuZi_w@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Jorge Ortiz" <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Glad to  see that we are hashing this out.=20

=20

Replies inline.=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Jorge Ortiz
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:45 AM
To: John Parello (jparello)
Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

	=20

	Are we saying that the power series (speed) is not useful and
only the energy series (distance) is useful?

=20

That's the claim, yes.  Instantaneous power readings may miss
peaks/valleys unless the sampling rate is high enough.

=20

YCM>>>   I am presuming this is one of definition of how the measurement
is done. =20

YCM>>>  To clarify,  Power measurement is not an instantaneous
measurement.  For AC, this measurement is obtained as an average of a
fixed number of sinusoidal cycles.=20

YCM>>>  We have power measurements of devices of as requirement. In
addition, there is also a requirement to collect energy measurement of
devices.=20

YCM>>>  The question is - should we have time series of power (such
averaged measurements) stored at a device and then retrieved or pushed
to the NMS.=20

=20

YCM>>> At the WG, there was a consensus, there should be requirements to
have time series of both power and energy measurements.=20

YCM>>> It should be noted that the requirements concern the standards
specification and not the implementations of specific standards.=20

=20

	=20

	What about devices that cannot implement  energy and can only
report their power ?

=20

That's a good point.  However, I still think local energy calculations
should be made at the meter if possible.  If it's already collecting
power data, it might as well integrate over time.

=20

	What about devices that can only report their power based on
estimates and cannot report energy, do you exclude them from time series
data then as well?

=20

That's actually why I think there should be an instantaneous power
reporting service; to handle such cases.

=20

Jorge

=20

=20

	=20

	Jp

	=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

	From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Bruce Nordman
	Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 PM
	To: Daniel Kharitonov
	Cc: jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu; eman@ietf.org

=09
	Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

	=20

	I want to express a concern that the title of this thread is
"time series of power measurements" - in my work with energy use and
efficiency, time series data are always energy measurements.  These can
be expressed as average power over each period of course, but these are
derived - the basic data are energy.

	=20

	Mouli, in his original message, noted that the current
requirements draft speaks to both time series of power and time series
of energy.  I suggest that we need only the energy time series.  A power
time series would be just a periodic snapshot of current power and not
give visibility into what happened in between.  An EMS should simply
request an interval appropriate to its needs.  In his second post, Mouli
notes that "between long cycles, some ... power peaks can be lost".
Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would be in power
measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.  The ODVA
documents refer to energy "odometers" - which applies to energy but not
power - so they are thinking along the same lines.

	=20

	So, I propose that the drafts incorporate the following
conclusions:

	--Time series of energy only

	--Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the
same as the result if they were polled individually at the time stamps
reported

	--Only support a single duration/synch set.  How many time
periods can be reported is up to the device - from zero to a  large
number.

	=20

	Bruce

	(as contributor)

	=20

	On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov
<dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

=09
	Hi Jorge,
=09
	JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so
that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed=20
=09
	This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on
the device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different
intervals).
=09
	Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous
snapshots too often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once
every hour or once every day.
=09
	DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of
useful payload in the same period.
	JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=20
=09
	This point becomes relevant when we think about active power
state management in the large ICT domain.
=09
	Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices
(RAN, routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
=09
	To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know
both historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
unexpected traffic loss.
=09
	As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the
Enterprise.
=09
	In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any
user can transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100
percent capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime
(e.g. 802.3az or similar).
=09
	At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that
possibly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
=09
	Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say,
50, 30 and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to
choose?
=09
	To know this, we must have collected this data before to
validate the possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical
because data peaks can be very shortlived.
=09
	Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in
reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report
this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a
wrong judgement.
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
	=20

	From: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]=20
	Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
	To: Daniel Kharitonov=20
	Cc: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org>=20

	Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

	On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov
<dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

	Hi Jorge,
=09
=09
	DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying
frequency, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
	JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of
underlying combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a
typical power trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for
example, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.
=09
	I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat
energy footprint profile.
	However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
billing.

	=20

	I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't
miss too many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total
energy consumed over extended periods.

	=20

	=09
		Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist-Shannon
problem here and try to collect samples with frequency above the certain
system-specific limit.
		In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution
of several seconds per sample at the best.
	=09
		What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior
of useful payload in the same period.
		This is related to fact that we can only change power
states if we are sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.

	=20

	Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=20

	=20

	=20

	=09
	=09
	=09
		---------------------------------

	=09
		> the sampling frequency
	=09
		This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically
ranges in Khz.
		However, the operating system itself does not poll the
registers that often; it is more common to have a counter that is
updated every 1-10 seconds or so.
	=09
		Seems reasonable.
	=09
	=09
		> and the report frequency.  Without this distinction,
it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption
measure.
	=09
		I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly
a convenience feature.
	=09
		Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as
important if timestamped power readings are recorded, since the
aggregate can be computed from the traces.
	=09
	=09
		While every device will have it's own minimal update
resolution, those figures are quite low and not interesting for energy
savings estimates.
		Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be
more useful for billing and management purposes.
	=09
		Another concern is that energy consumed in a
monotonically increasing, so we will run into wrap-out issues.  That
said, Bruce mentioned an averaging window size should be included in the
report.  This would be useful for minimizing value wrap-around.
	=09
		> If the thing being measured changes slowly, then
synchronization will not matter as much as long as readings lie within a
reasonable time window.
	=09
		Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it
may not matter at all.
	=09
		For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due
to fan on/off or similar events are not very interesting. It is more
interesting to learn a broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with
certain power states activated.
	=09
		However, please bear in mind that when designing an
energy NMS it is very important to know traffic parameters with
resolution and error counters good enough to approximate usage pattern
with power states.

	=20

=09
	_______________________________________________
	eman mailing list
	eman@ietf.org
	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

=09
=09
=09
	--=20
	Bruce Nordman
	Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
	eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
	BNordman@LBL.gov
	510-486-7089
	m: 510-501-7943

=20


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Glad to&nbsp; see that we are hashing this out. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Replies inline. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Jorge Ortiz<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 10, 2012 10:45 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> John Parello (jparello)<br><b>Cc:</b> =
eman@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series of power =
measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Are we saying that the power =
series (speed) is not useful and only the energy series (distance) is =
useful?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's the claim, yes. &nbsp;Instantaneous power =
readings may miss peaks/valleys unless the sampling rate is high =
enough.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;I am presuming this is one of definition =
of how the measurement is done.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;To clarify,&nbsp; Power measurement is not an =
instantaneous measurement. &nbsp;For AC, this measurement is obtained as =
an average of a fixed number of sinusoidal cycles. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;We have power measurements of devices of as =
requirement. In addition, there is also a requirement to collect energy =
measurement of devices. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;The question is &#8211; should we have time =
series of power (such averaged measurements) stored at a device and then =
retrieved or pushed to the NMS. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; At the WG, there was a consensus, there should be =
requirements to have time series of both power and energy measurements. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>YCM&gt;&gt;&gt; It should be noted that the requirements concern the =
standards specification and not the implementations of specific =
standards. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>What about devices that cannot =
implement &nbsp;energy and can only report their power =
?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's a good point. &nbsp;However, I still think =
local energy calculations should be made at the meter if possible. =
&nbsp;If it's already collecting power data, it might as well integrate =
over time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>What about devices that can =
only report their power based on estimates and cannot report energy, do =
you exclude them from time series data then as =
well?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's actually why I think there should be an =
instantaneous power reporting service; to handle such =
cases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jorge<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Jp</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce =
Nordman<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Daniel Kharitonov<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series of power =
measurements<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I want to express a concern =
that the title of this thread is &#8220;time series of power =
measurements&#8221; &#8211; in my work with energy use and efficiency, =
time series data are always energy measurements.&nbsp; These can be =
expressed as average power over each period of course, but these are =
derived &#8211; the basic data are energy.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mouli, in his original =
message, noted that the current requirements draft speaks to both time =
series of power and time series of energy.&nbsp; I suggest that we need =
only the energy time series.&nbsp; A power time series would be just a =
periodic snapshot of current power and not give visibility into what =
happened in between.&nbsp; An EMS should simply request an interval =
appropriate to its needs.&nbsp; In his second post, Mouli notes that =
&#8220;between long cycles, some &#8230; power peaks can be =
lost&#8221;.&nbsp; Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would =
be in power measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.&nbsp; =
The ODVA documents refer to energy &#8220;odometers&#8221; &#8211; which =
applies to energy but not power &#8211; so they are thinking along the =
same lines.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>So, I propose that the drafts =
incorporate the following conclusions:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Time series of energy =
only</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Adopt the principle that =
the time series data should be the same as the result if they were =
polled individually at the time stamps reported</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Only support a single =
duration/synch set.&nbsp; How many time periods can be reported is up to =
the device &#8211; from zero to a&nbsp; large =
number.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bruce</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(as =
contributor)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Feb =
9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>Hi Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My =
main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it impacts =
our assessment of the total energy consumed <br><br>This is a valid =
argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the device itself (or an =
array of such counters rolling at different =
intervals).<br><br>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull =
instantaneous snapshots too often. However, it is easy to pull summary =
counters once every hour or once every day.<br><br>DK&gt; What is likely =
*more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload in the same =
period.<br>JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? =
<br><br>This point becomes relevant when we think about active power =
state management in the large ICT domain.<br><br>Power-managing =
real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN, routers, switches, =
DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they transcend into wrong =
power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<br><br>To plan and =
assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both historical and =
current utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected traffic =
loss.<br><br>As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the =
Enterprise.<br><br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely =
predictable as any user can transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch =
remains at 100 percent capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen =
in realtime (e.g. 802.3az or similar).<br><br>At night, the switch can =
be moved into a lower power states that possibly trade energy for =
capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now the question - if =
we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 percent =
capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br><br>To know =
this, we must have collected this data before to validate the =
possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data =
peaks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still =
happen when switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms =
to detect overload and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to =
more capacity should we made a wrong =
judgement.<br><br><br><br><br><br></span><br>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: =
Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>] <br><b>Sent</b>: Thursday, =
February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel Kharitonov =
<br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt; </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
[eman] Time series of power measurements </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Feb =
10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi =
Jorge,<br><br><br>DK&gt; I don't think the consumption of energy has =
underlying frequency, at least until the quantum-level resolution is =
reached )<br>JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a =
set of underlying combination of frequencies. &nbsp;Doing any signal =
analysis on a typical power trace will show it. &nbsp;The power trace of =
a laptop, for example, is quite different from the power trace for a =
lamp.<br><br>I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a =
flat energy footprint profile.<br>However, the details of that complex =
aperiodic process are less interesting to us relative to consumption at =
intervals meaningful to billing.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I see. =
&nbsp;That's a fair point. &nbsp;My main concern was that we don't miss =
too many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy =
consumed over extended periods.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>Therefor=
e, we do not have to solve the Nyquist&#8211;Shannon problem here and =
try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific =
limit.<br>In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of =
several seconds per sample at the best.<br><br>What is likely *more* =
interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload in the same =
period.<br>This is related to fact that we can only change power states =
if we are sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are =
reached.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can you =
elaborate a bit more on this point?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br><br>=
---------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>&gt; =
the sampling frequency<br><br>This is a function of integrated PSU =
sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>However, the operating system =
itself does not poll the registers that often; it is more common to have =
a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or so.<br><br>Seems =
reasonable.<br><br><br>&gt; and the report frequency. &nbsp;Without this =
distinction, it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total =
power-consumption measure.<br><br>I would agree with Bruce that time =
aggregates are mostly a convenience feature.<br><br>Sure. &nbsp;Where =
the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped power =
readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the =
traces.<br><br><br>While every device will have it's own minimal update =
resolution, those figures are quite low and not interesting for energy =
savings estimates.<br>Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals =
can be more useful for billing and management purposes.<br><br>Another =
concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so we =
will run into wrap-out issues. &nbsp;That said, Bruce mentioned an =
averaging window size should be included in the report. &nbsp;This would =
be useful for minimizing value wrap-around.<br><br>&gt; If the thing =
being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will not matter as =
much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time =
window.<br><br>Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it =
may not matter at all.<br><br>For the energy management NMS the =
consumption peaks due to fan on/off or similar events are not very =
interesting. It is more interesting to learn a broader energy use over =
1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated.<br><br>However, =
please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very =
important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters =
good enough to approximate usage pattern with power =
states.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________=
_________________________________<br>eman mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br =
clear=3Dall><br>-- <br><b><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>Bruce =
Nordman</span></b><br><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley =
National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" =
target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" =
target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" =
target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Jorge Ortiz" <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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OK some more thoughts.

=20

Just say a device can report instantaneous power and can't do energy
(I've got tons of those). If the NMS wants to get an idea of the power
over time it would have to poll. Well we know SNMP polls get bogged down
and people don't poll more than say 5-10 minutes.  (netflow may be
different)

=20

IF the devices could collect a series of power reading at faster
intervals it would make sense to have the NMS poll less frequently and
get the series of power readings. That alleviates the need for rapid
polling over the network.

=20

Scale that up to even hundreds of devices with thousands of interfaces
and you're talking a lot of communication saved.

=20

So is it still not useful?

=20

Jp

=20

From: jortiz81@gmail.com [mailto:jortiz81@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jorge
Ortiz
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:15 PM
To: John Parello (jparello)
Cc: Bruce Nordman; Daniel Kharitonov; eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

=20

Hi John,

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 9:54 AM, John Parello (jparello)
<jparello@cisco.com> wrote:

Not expressing an opinion either way but I just want to make it clear
for the discussion.

=20

At the ODVA we used the analogy of power=3Dspeed and energy=3Ddistance.

=20

So here's two series of power and energy readings (BTW Both series of
readings misses spikes in the intervals.)=20

	=20

	=20

	Interval    Power   Energy

	0                0W         0kwh

	1            100W    500kwh

	2            120W    600kwh

	3            200W   1000kwh

	4            150W   1350kwh

	5            100W   1500kwh

	=20

	Are we saying that the power series (speed) is not useful and
only the energy series (distance) is useful?

=20

That's the claim, yes.  Instantaneous power readings may miss
peaks/valleys unless the sampling rate is high enough.

=20

	=20

	What about devices that cannot implement  energy and can only
report their power ?

=20

That's a good point.  However, I still think local energy calculations
should be made at the meter if possible.  If it's already collecting
power data, it might as well integrate over time.

=20

	What about devices that can only report their power based on
estimates and cannot report energy, do you exclude them from time series
data then as well?

=20

That's actually why I think there should be an instantaneous power
reporting service; to handle such cases.

=20

Jorge

=20

=20

	=20

	Jp

	=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

	From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Bruce Nordman
	Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 PM
	To: Daniel Kharitonov
	Cc: jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu; eman@ietf.org

=09
	Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements

	=20

	I want to express a concern that the title of this thread is
"time series of power measurements" - in my work with energy use and
efficiency, time series data are always energy measurements.  These can
be expressed as average power over each period of course, but these are
derived - the basic data are energy.

	=20

	Mouli, in his original message, noted that the current
requirements draft speaks to both time series of power and time series
of energy.  I suggest that we need only the energy time series.  A power
time series would be just a periodic snapshot of current power and not
give visibility into what happened in between.  An EMS should simply
request an interval appropriate to its needs.  In his second post, Mouli
notes that "between long cycles, some ... power peaks can be lost".
Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would be in power
measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.  The ODVA
documents refer to energy "odometers" - which applies to energy but not
power - so they are thinking along the same lines.

	=20

	So, I propose that the drafts incorporate the following
conclusions:

	--Time series of energy only

	--Adopt the principle that the time series data should be the
same as the result if they were polled individually at the time stamps
reported

	--Only support a single duration/synch set.  How many time
periods can be reported is up to the device - from zero to a  large
number.

	=20

	Bruce

	(as contributor)

	=20

	On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov
<dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

=09
	Hi Jorge,
=09
	JO> My main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so
that it impacts our assessment of the total energy consumed=20
=09
	This is a valid argument that justifies a cumulative counter on
the device itself (or an array of such counters rolling at different
intervals).
=09
	Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull instantaneous
snapshots too often. However, it is easy to pull summary counters once
every hour or once every day.
=09
	DK> What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior of
useful payload in the same period.
	JO> Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=20
=09
	This point becomes relevant when we think about active power
state management in the large ICT domain.
=09
	Power-managing real-time systems like transit network devices
(RAN, routers, switches, DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they
transcend into wrong power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.
=09
	To plan and assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know
both historical and current utilization trends along with statistics for
unexpected traffic loss.
=09
	As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the
Enterprise.
=09
	In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely predictable as any
user can transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch remains at 100
percent capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen in realtime
(e.g. 802.3az or similar).
=09
	At night, the switch can be moved into a lower power states that
possibly trade energy for capacity or other service characteristics.
=09
	Now the question - if we have a series of available states (say,
50, 30 and 10 percent capacity on a device), what is the right one to
choose?
=09
	To know this, we must have collected this data before to
validate the possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical
because data peaks can be very shortlived.
=09
	Moreover, data peaks may still happen when switch operates in
reduced power state. We need mechanisms to detect overload and report
this back to NMS to ensure we back off to more capacity should we made a
wrong judgement.
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
	=20

	From: Jorge Ortiz [mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu]=20
	Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 02:38 PM
	To: Daniel Kharitonov=20
	Cc: eman@ietf.org <eman@ietf.org>=20

	Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

	On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov
<dkh@juniper.net> wrote:

	Hi Jorge,
=09
=09
	DK> I don't think the consumption of energy has underlying
frequency, at least until the quantum-level resolution is reached )
	JO> The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a set of
underlying combination of frequencies.  Doing any signal analysis on a
typical power trace will show it.  The power trace of a laptop, for
example, is quite different from the power trace for a lamp.
=09
	I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a flat
energy footprint profile.
	However, the details of that complex aperiodic process are less
interesting to us relative to consumption at intervals meaningful to
billing.

	=20

	I see.  That's a fair point.  My main concern was that we don't
miss too many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total
energy consumed over extended periods.

	=20

	=09
		Therefore, we do not have to solve the Nyquist-Shannon
problem here and try to collect samples with frequency above the certain
system-specific limit.
		In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution
of several seconds per sample at the best.
	=09
		What is likely *more* interesting to us is the behavior
of useful payload in the same period.
		This is related to fact that we can only change power
states if we are sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are reached.

	=20

	Can you elaborate a bit more on this point?=20

	=20

	=20

	=09
	=09
	=09
		---------------------------------

	=09
		> the sampling frequency
	=09
		This is a function of integrated PSU sensors. Typically
ranges in Khz.
		However, the operating system itself does not poll the
registers that often; it is more common to have a counter that is
updated every 1-10 seconds or so.
	=09
		Seems reasonable.
	=09
	=09
		> and the report frequency.  Without this distinction,
it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total power-consumption
measure.
	=09
		I would agree with Bruce that time aggregates are mostly
a convenience feature.
	=09
		Sure.  Where the aggregate is computed is not as
important if timestamped power readings are recorded, since the
aggregate can be computed from the traces.
	=09
	=09
		While every device will have it's own minimal update
resolution, those figures are quite low and not interesting for energy
savings estimates.
		Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals can be
more useful for billing and management purposes.
	=09
		Another concern is that energy consumed in a
monotonically increasing, so we will run into wrap-out issues.  That
said, Bruce mentioned an averaging window size should be included in the
report.  This would be useful for minimizing value wrap-around.
	=09
		> If the thing being measured changes slowly, then
synchronization will not matter as much as long as readings lie within a
reasonable time window.
	=09
		Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it
may not matter at all.
	=09
		For the energy management NMS the consumption peaks due
to fan on/off or similar events are not very interesting. It is more
interesting to learn a broader energy use over 1hr-24hr interval with
certain power states activated.
	=09
		However, please bear in mind that when designing an
energy NMS it is very important to know traffic parameters with
resolution and error counters good enough to approximate usage pattern
with power states.

	=20

=09
	_______________________________________________
	eman mailing list
	eman@ietf.org
	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

=09
=09
=09
	--=20
	Bruce Nordman
	Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
	eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
	BNordman@LBL.gov
	510-486-7089
	m: 510-501-7943

=20


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>OK some more thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Just say a device can report instantaneous power and can&#8217;t do =
energy (I&#8217;ve got tons of those). If the NMS wants to get an idea =
of the power over time it would have to poll. Well we know SNMP polls =
get bogged down and people don&#8217;t poll more than say 5-10 minutes. =
&nbsp;(netflow may be different)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>IF the devices could collect a series of power reading at faster =
intervals it would make sense to have the NMS poll less frequently and =
get the series of power readings. That alleviates the need for rapid =
polling over the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Scale that up to even hundreds of devices with thousands of =
interfaces and you&#8217;re talking a lot of communication =
saved.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So is it still not useful?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
jortiz81@gmail.com [mailto:jortiz81@gmail.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jorge =
Ortiz<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
John Parello (jparello)<br><b>Cc:</b> Bruce Nordman; Daniel Kharitonov; =
eman@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series of power =
measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 9:54 AM, John Parello =
(jparello) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jparello@cisco.com">jparello@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Not expressing an opinion =
either way but I just want to make it clear for the =
discussion.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>At the ODVA we used the analogy =
of power=3Dspeed and energy=3Ddistance.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>So here&#8217;s two series of =
power and energy readings (BTW Both series of readings misses spikes in =
the intervals.)</span>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Interval&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Power&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
0W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 100W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
500kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 120W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
600kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;200W&nbsp;&nbsp; =
1000kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 150W&nbsp;&nbsp; =
1350kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 100W&nbsp;&nbsp; =
1500kwh</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Are we saying that the power =
series (speed) is not useful and only the energy series (distance) is =
useful?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's the claim, yes. &nbsp;Instantaneous power =
readings may miss peaks/valleys unless the sampling rate is high =
enough.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>What about devices that cannot =
implement &nbsp;energy and can only report their power =
?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's a good point. &nbsp;However, I still think =
local energy calculations should be made at the meter if possible. =
&nbsp;If it's already collecting power data, it might as well integrate =
over time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>What about devices that can =
only report their power based on estimates and cannot report energy, do =
you exclude them from time series data then as =
well?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That's actually why I think there should be an =
instantaneous power reporting service; to handle such =
cases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jorge<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Jp</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce =
Nordman<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:39 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Daniel Kharitonov<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Time series of power =
measurements<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I want to express a concern =
that the title of this thread is &#8220;time series of power =
measurements&#8221; &#8211; in my work with energy use and efficiency, =
time series data are always energy measurements.&nbsp; These can be =
expressed as average power over each period of course, but these are =
derived &#8211; the basic data are energy.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mouli, in his original =
message, noted that the current requirements draft speaks to both time =
series of power and time series of energy.&nbsp; I suggest that we need =
only the energy time series.&nbsp; A power time series would be just a =
periodic snapshot of current power and not give visibility into what =
happened in between.&nbsp; An EMS should simply request an interval =
appropriate to its needs.&nbsp; In his second post, Mouli notes that =
&#8220;between long cycles, some &#8230; power peaks can be =
lost&#8221;.&nbsp; Peaks will not be lost in energy measures, but would =
be in power measures, which is why energy is so much more useful.&nbsp; =
The ODVA documents refer to energy &#8220;odometers&#8221; &#8211; which =
applies to energy but not power &#8211; so they are thinking along the =
same lines.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>So, I propose that the drafts =
incorporate the following conclusions:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Time series of energy =
only</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Adopt the principle that =
the time series data should be the same as the result if they were =
polled individually at the time stamps reported</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--Only support a single =
duration/synch set.&nbsp; How many time periods can be reported is up to =
the device &#8211; from zero to a&nbsp; large =
number.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bruce</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(as =
contributor)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Feb =
9, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Kharitonov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>Hi Jorge,<br><br>JO&gt; My =
main concern was that we don't miss too many peaks so that it impacts =
our assessment of the total energy consumed <br><br>This is a valid =
argument that justifies a cumulative counter on the device itself (or an =
array of such counters rolling at different =
intervals).<br><br>Practically, we cannot expect NMS to pull =
instantaneous snapshots too often. However, it is easy to pull summary =
counters once every hour or once every day.<br><br>DK&gt; What is likely =
*more* interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload in the same =
period.<br>JO&gt; Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? =
<br><br>This point becomes relevant when we think about active power =
state management in the large ICT domain.<br><br>Power-managing =
real-time systems like transit network devices (RAN, routers, switches, =
DSLAMs) is inherently difficult because if they transcend into wrong =
power states, traffic will be irreversibly lost.<br><br>To plan and =
assess the situation, NMS personnel needs to know both historical and =
current utilization trends along with statistics for unexpected traffic =
loss.<br><br>As an example, let's look at day of life of a switch in the =
Enterprise.<br><br>In the daytime, traffic patterns are rarely =
predictable as any user can transfer data anytime. Therefore, the switch =
remains at 100 percent capacity and energy mgmt (if any) needs to happen =
in realtime (e.g. 802.3az or similar).<br><br>At night, the switch can =
be moved into a lower power states that possibly trade energy for =
capacity or other service characteristics.<br><br>Now the question - if =
we have a series of available states (say, 50, 30 and 10 percent =
capacity on a device), what is the right one to choose?<br><br>To know =
this, we must have collected this data before to validate the =
possibility of transition. Here, the resolution is critical because data =
peaks can be very shortlived.<br><br>Moreover, data peaks may still =
happen when switch operates in reduced power state. We need mechanisms =
to detect overload and report this back to NMS to ensure we back off to =
more capacity should we made a wrong =
judgement.<br><br><br><br><br><br></span><br>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: =
Jorge Ortiz [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu</a>] <br><b>Sent</b>: Thursday, =
February 09, 2012 02:38 PM<br><b>To</b>: Daniel Kharitonov =
<br><b>Cc</b>: <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt; </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
[eman] Time series of power measurements </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Feb =
10, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Daniel Kharitonov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dkh@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">dkh@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi =
Jorge,<br><br><br>DK&gt; I don't think the consumption of energy has =
underlying frequency, at least until the quantum-level resolution is =
reached )<br>JO&gt; The power-draw characteristics certainly does have a =
set of underlying combination of frequencies. &nbsp;Doing any signal =
analysis on a typical power trace will show it. &nbsp;The power trace of =
a laptop, for example, is quite different from the power trace for a =
lamp.<br><br>I don't think we made a statement that an ICT device has a =
flat energy footprint profile.<br>However, the details of that complex =
aperiodic process are less interesting to us relative to consumption at =
intervals meaningful to billing.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I see. =
&nbsp;That's a fair point. &nbsp;My main concern was that we don't miss =
too many peaks so that it impacts our assessment of the total energy =
consumed over extended periods.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>Therefor=
e, we do not have to solve the Nyquist&#8211;Shannon problem here and =
try to collect samples with frequency above the certain system-specific =
limit.<br>In fact, whatever we do is already reduced to resolution of =
several seconds per sample at the best.<br><br>What is likely *more* =
interesting to us is the behavior of useful payload in the same =
period.<br>This is related to fact that we can only change power states =
if we are sure the certain minimal QoS agreements are =
reached.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can you =
elaborate a bit more on this point?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br><br>=
---------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>&gt; =
the sampling frequency<br><br>This is a function of integrated PSU =
sensors. Typically ranges in Khz.<br>However, the operating system =
itself does not poll the registers that often; it is more common to have =
a counter that is updated every 1-10 seconds or so.<br><br>Seems =
reasonable.<br><br><br>&gt; and the report frequency. &nbsp;Without this =
distinction, it will be difficult to ensure accuracy in the total =
power-consumption measure.<br><br>I would agree with Bruce that time =
aggregates are mostly a convenience feature.<br><br>Sure. &nbsp;Where =
the aggregate is computed is not as important if timestamped power =
readings are recorded, since the aggregate can be computed from the =
traces.<br><br><br>While every device will have it's own minimal update =
resolution, those figures are quite low and not interesting for energy =
savings estimates.<br>Average 1 min / 5 min/30 min/1hr/24 hr intervals =
can be more useful for billing and management purposes.<br><br>Another =
concern is that energy consumed in a monotonically increasing, so we =
will run into wrap-out issues. &nbsp;That said, Bruce mentioned an =
averaging window size should be included in the report. &nbsp;This would =
be useful for minimizing value wrap-around.<br><br>&gt; If the thing =
being measured changes slowly, then synchronization will not matter as =
much as long as readings lie within a reasonable time =
window.<br><br>Alternatively, with reasonable convenience intervals it =
may not matter at all.<br><br>For the energy management NMS the =
consumption peaks due to fan on/off or similar events are not very =
interesting. It is more interesting to learn a broader energy use over =
1hr-24hr interval with certain power states activated.<br><br>However, =
please bear in mind that when designing an energy NMS it is very =
important to know traffic parameters with resolution and error counters =
good enough to approximate usage pattern with power =
states.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________=
_________________________________<br>eman mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br =
clear=3Dall><br>-- <br><b><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>Bruce =
Nordman</span></b><br><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley =
National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" =
target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" =
target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" =
target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de  Fri Feb 10 10:31:13 2012
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
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Cc: Jorge Ortiz <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>, eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 09:36:10AM -0800, John Parello (jparello) wrote:
> OK some more thoughts.
> 
> Just say a device can report instantaneous power and can't do energy
> (I've got tons of those). If the NMS wants to get an idea of the power
> over time it would have to poll. Well we know SNMP polls get bogged down
> and people don't poll more than say 5-10 minutes.  (netflow may be
> different)
> 
> IF the devices could collect a series of power reading at faster
> intervals it would make sense to have the NMS poll less frequently and
> get the series of power readings. That alleviates the need for rapid
> polling over the network.
> 
> Scale that up to even hundreds of devices with thousands of interfaces
> and you're talking a lot of communication saved.
> 
> So is it still not useful?

Some of the transmission MIBs use PerfHist-TC-MIB definitions to
provide usually 15 minute history counters. And then there is the
DISMAN-EXPRESSION-MIB which might be able to do what you want (and
the next things people will discuss is thresholding - I will then
point to the DISMAN-EVENT-MIB).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From dkh@juniper.net  Fri Feb 10 11:38:49 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: "'jparello@cisco.com'" <jparello@cisco.com>, "'jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu'" <jortiz@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:36:16 -0800
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Subject: Re: [eman] Time series of power measurements
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Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your feedback.
See in line.
> Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the full eman discussions archive.
> I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:
>
> 1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but immediately available)"
>
> This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately available, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sleep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability.
>
> It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.
>
> 2) Section 5.2 "Power State"
>
> Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteristics of available states along same lines.
>
> For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.
Do you believe that this should be part of the EMAN framework (and 
therefore part of the Enegy Objects)? Or can we assume that this is done 
by the EnNMS?

I mean: let's imagine that we want this functionality in the EMAN 
framework. Taking back your sentence:

      an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

What is the capacity? QoS? Cpu? Energy consumption? Packets/s for a router?
Basically, it depends: energy object type, device function, parameters 
to optimize, etc...

So shouldn't leave this task to the EnNMS...

Regards, Benoit.

>
> Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kharitonov
> Juniper Networks Inc
> 1194 N Mathilda Ave
> Sunnyvale CA
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


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    Hi Daniel,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for your feedback.<br>
    See in line.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967AFEB1E@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the full eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:

1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but immediately available)"

This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately available, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sleep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability. 

It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.

2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteristics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Do you believe that this should be part of the EMAN framework (and
    therefore part of the Enegy Objects)? Or can we assume that this is
    done by the EnNMS?<br>
    <br>
    I mean: let's imagine that we want this functionality in the EMAN
    framework. Taking back your sentence:<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""> an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    What is the capacity? QoS? Cpu? Energy consumption? Packets/s for a
    router? <br>
    Basically, it depends: energy object type, device function,
    parameters to optimize, etc...<br>
    <br>
    So shouldn't leave this task to the EnNMS...<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967AFEB1E@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.


--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA
_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Temperature
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On 01/02/2012 07:36, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 08:07:56PM -0600, Brad Schoening wrote:
>> Bruce,
>>
>> I don't see the clear relevance of 'temperature' to the EMAN requirements.
>>
>> While there is a large list of environmental and system performance metrics, these have not been mentioned in EMAN requirements.  Sensor measurements for temperature, relative humidity, lumens, etc seem more appropriately left to an ENVIRONMENTAL-SENSOR-MIB.
>>
> The ENTITY-SENSOR-MIB does report temperatures.
Since the EMAN MIB tables are based on the entPhysicalIndex from the 
ENTITY-MIB (so requires the instantiation of the Energy Objects based on 
the entPhysicalIndex), and since the ENTITY-SENSOR-MIB is also based on 
the entPhysicalIndex, reporting the temperate should be covered by 
implementing the ENTITY-SENSOR-MIB.

A few words about the link between (EMAN MIB tables -> entPhysicalIndex 
-> temperature in ENTITY-SENSOR-MIB) might be useful in EMAN 
applicability statement document.

Regards, Benoit.

>
> /js
>


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Subject: Re: [eman] Comments on draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-03
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Thanks Ira,

See inline,
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for your excellent review Bill.
>
> Two comments:
>
> (1) Single object string lengths greater than 1023 octets
> might not pass over Ethernet links w/out fragmentation.
> I would be cautious about using 2048 for TCs.
I've been looking for advice in RFC 4181 about  the size of an OCTET 
STRING related to fragmentation, but could not find anything
Actually, do we care? Thanks to IPv6 PMTU, the end nodes in IPv6 are 
able to determine the max size of packets to send.
Note: maybe not many networks are managed through IPv6 now, but that's 
behind the point.

So the question is: should we foreseen big enough, i.e (SIZE (0..2048)), 
or 2048 is unrealistic for EnergyObjectList and EnergyObjectKeywordList ?

EnergyObjectList ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION

STATUScurrent

DESCRIPTION

"A list of Energy Object Universally Unique Identifiers (UUIDs).

The UUIDs must comply to the RFC 4122 specifications.

The object contains URIs and, therefore, the syntax of this object must 
conform to RFC 3986, section 2.

Multiple URIs may be present and are separated by white space 
characters.Leading and trailing white space characters are ignored."

REFERENCE

"RFC 3986, Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI): Generic Syntax, section 
2, August 1998.

RFC 4122, Uniform Resource Identifier (UUID) URN Namespace, July 2005."

SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE (0..2048))

   EnergyObjectKeywordList ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION

STATUScurrent

DESCRIPTION

"A list of keywords that can be used to group Energy Objects for 
reporting or searching. If multiple keywords are present, then this 
string will contain all the keywords separated by the ',' character. 
White spaces before and after the commas are excluded, as well as within 
a keyword itself.

For example, if an Energy Object were to be tagged with the keyword 
values 'hospitality' and 'guest', then the keyword list will be 
'hospitality,guest'."

SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE (0..2048))

>
> (2) While the UUID *itself* in RFC 4122 is 16 octets, the
> total length expressed *as a URI* in the ABNF and example
> on page 4 is exactly 45 octets:
>
> urn:uuid:f81d4fae-7dec-11d0-a765-00a0c91e6bf6
Good catch. That might actually increase the size of 
EnergyObjectKeywordList

Let me get back to the initial question, with this correction:
How many UUID can we have in a list? Note that, even a  "A UUID is 128 
bits long" [RFC4122], the total length expressed as a URI in the ABNF is 
45 octets.
This Textual Convention would be applied to the following objects


               |  +-------------------------------------------+
               |--|   EO Child Relationships (optional)       |
               |  | ----------------------------------------- |
               |  |  eoMeteredBy (Parent(s) UUID list)        |
               |  |  eoPoweredBy (Parent(s) UUID list         |
               |  |  eoDependentOf (Parent(s) UUID list)      |
               |  |  eoAggregatedBy (Parent(s) UUID list      |
               |  |  eoProxyBy (Parent(s) UUID list)          |
               |  +-------------------------------------------+
               |
               |
               |  +-----------------------------------------+
               |--|   EO Parent Relationships (optional)    |
                  | --------------------------------------- |
                  |  eoChildrenList (Child(ren) UUID list)  |
                  +-----------------------------------------+
      

The object that would contain the most UUID is eoChildrenList. So how 
many Children can a parent have? 10, 15, 100?

Regards, Benoit.

>
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
> Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
> Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
> Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
> IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
> Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
> Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
> Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>
>
>


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<html>
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Thanks Ira,<br>
    <br>
    See inline,<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAN40gSvmyZXU_keVHw-sYi4UnfmjxKUReN=Dv62jKSkXEdWZsA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Hi,<br>
      <br>
      Thanks for your excellent review Bill.<br>
      <br>
      Two comments:<br>
      <br>
      (1) Single object string lengths greater than 1023 octets<br>
      might not pass over Ethernet links w/out fragmentation.<br>
      I would be cautious about using 2048 for TCs.<br>
    </blockquote>
    I've been looking for advice in RFC 4181 about&nbsp; the size of an OCTET
    STRING related to fragmentation, but could not find anything<br>
    Actually, do we care? Thanks to IPv6 PMTU, the end nodes in IPv6 are
    able to determine the max size of packets to send.<br>
    Note: maybe not many networks are managed through IPv6 now, but
    that's behind the point.<br>
    <br>
    So the question is: should we foreseen big enough, i.e <span
      style=""> (SIZE (0..2048)), or 2048 is unrealistic for
      EnergyObjectList and </span>EnergyObjectKeywordList <span
      style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"></span><span
      style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">? </span><br>
    <br>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>EnergyObjectList

      <span style="mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">::=
        TEXTUAL-CONVENTION<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>STATUS<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>current<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>DESCRIPTION<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">"A
        list of Energy Object Universally Unique Identifiers (UUIDs).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">The
        UUIDs must comply to the RFC 4122 specifications.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">The
        object contains URIs and, therefore, the syntax of this object
        must conform to RFC 3986, section 2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:137.4pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span
          style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Multiple

        URIs may be present and are separated by white space characters.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Leading and trailing white
        space characters are ignored."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>REFERENCE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">"RFC
        3986, Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI): Generic Syntax,
        section 2, August 1998.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:70.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">RFC
        4122, Uniform Resource Identifier (UUID) URN Namespace, July
        2005."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span
        style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE
      (0..2048))</span><br>
    <br>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt">&nbsp; EnergyObjectKeywordList <span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">::=
        TEXTUAL-CONVENTION<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>STATUS<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>current<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;
      tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt
      367.2pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt
      732.8pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>DESCRIPTION<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><a
style="mso-comment-reference:&quot;B\.C\._1&quot;;mso-comment-date:20120126T1303"><span
          style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">"A
          list of keywords that can be used to group Energy Objects for
          reporting or searching. If multiple keywords are present, then
          this string will contain all the keywords separated by the ','
          character. White spaces before and after the commas are
          excluded, as well as within a keyword itself. <o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-comment-continuation:1"><span
          style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></span></p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:45.8pt

      91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt 412.2pt
      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-comment-continuation:1"><span
          style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">For
example,

          if an Energy Object were to be tagged with the keyword values
          'hospitality' and 'guest', then the keyword list will be
          'hospitality,guest'."</span></span><span
        class="MsoCommentReference"><span
          style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier

          New&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span
            class="msocomanchor"></span><span
            style="mso-special-character: comment"></span></span></span><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span
        style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE
      (0..2048))</span><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAN40gSvmyZXU_keVHw-sYi4UnfmjxKUReN=Dv62jKSkXEdWZsA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      (2) While the UUID *itself* in RFC 4122 is 16 octets, the<br>
      total length expressed *as a URI* in the ABNF and example <br>
      on page 4 is exactly 45 octets:<br>
      <br>
      urn:uuid:f81d4fae-7dec-11d0-a765-00a0c91e6bf6<br>
    </blockquote>
    Good catch. That might actually increase the size of
    EnergyObjectKeywordList <span style=""><br>
      <br>
      Let me get back to the initial question, with this correction:<br>
    </span>How many UUID can we have in a list? Note that, even a&nbsp; "A
    UUID is 128 bits long" [RFC4122], the total length expressed as a
    URI in the ABNF is 45 octets.<br>
    This Textual Convention would be applied to the following objects<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   
              |  +-------------------------------------------+
              |--|   EO Child Relationships (optional)       |
              |  | ----------------------------------------- |
              |  |  eoMeteredBy (Parent(s) UUID list)        |
              |  |  eoPoweredBy (Parent(s) UUID list         |
              |  |  eoDependentOf (Parent(s) UUID list)      |
              |  |  eoAggregatedBy (Parent(s) UUID list      |
              |  |  eoProxyBy (Parent(s) UUID list)          |
              |  +-------------------------------------------+
              |
              |
              |  +-----------------------------------------+
              |--|   EO Parent Relationships (optional)    |
                 | --------------------------------------- |
                 |  eoChildrenList (Child(ren) UUID list)  |
                 +-----------------------------------------+
     </pre>
    The object that would contain the most UUID is eoChildrenList. So
    how many Children can a parent have? 10, 15, 100?<br>
    <span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><br>
    </span>Regards, Benoit.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAN40gSvmyZXU_keVHw-sYi4UnfmjxKUReN=Dv62jKSkXEdWZsA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite"><br>
      Cheers,<br>
      - Ira<br>
      <br clear="all">
      Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
      Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
      Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
      Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>
      Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>
      Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>
      IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>
      Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
      <a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:rgb(51,51,255)"
        href="http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic"
        target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
      <a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:rgb(102,0,204)"
        href="http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>
      mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
      Winter&nbsp; 579 Park Place&nbsp; Saline, MI&nbsp; 48176&nbsp; 734-944-0094<br>
      Summer&nbsp; PO Box 221&nbsp; Grand Marais, MI 49839&nbsp; 906-494-2434
      <div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From bclaise@cisco.com  Mon Feb 13 08:31:29 2012
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Dear all,

I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem 
description (if any), as there is some confusion.
According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine and 
the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.

Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module 
contains at the same time:
- "power quality" variables
- non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of 
reference technical parameters"? Example: current
Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the 
[EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.

Please let us know.

Regards, Benoit.
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories., 
> 1, 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much 
> ad hoc .
>
> In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>
>
>   Power Quality
>
>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>
>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>
>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>
>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>
>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>
>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>
>        connected to that electric power system.
>
>        Reference: [IEC60050 
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>]
>
>
> This seems both adequate and clear.
>
> The EMAN requirements draft states:
>
>     Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
>     frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and
>     current, the impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>
>
> That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>
>
> The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are 
> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and 
> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality 
> characteristic.
>
>
>          +------------------+--------------------+
>
>          |         ACQuality                     |
>
>          |---------------------------------------|
>
>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>
>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>
>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>
>          | frequency    : long                   |
>
>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>
>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>
>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>
>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>
>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>
>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>
>          +---------------------------------------+
>
>
>          +------------------------------------+
>
>          |         ACPhase                    |
>
>          |------------------------------------|
>
>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>
>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>
>          | activePower : long                 |
>
>          | reactivePower : long               |
>
>          | apparentPower : long               |
>
>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>
>          +------------------------------------+
>
>
>          +-------------------------------+---+
>
>          |        DelPhase                   |
>
>          |-----------------------------------|
>
>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>
>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>
>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>
>          +-----------------------------------+
>
>
>          +------------------+-----------+
>
>          |        WYEPhase              |
>
>          |------------------------------|
>
>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>
>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>
>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>
>          +------------------------------+
>
>
> Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting. 
> Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>
>
>
> e: brads@coraid.com âŸ m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall 
> <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>
> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
> Cc: "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org 
> <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
> Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality 
> definition is 2.
> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, I 
> don't
> think using it works.
>
> The Requirements draft 
> (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of power.
>
> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other than
> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
> and current.
>
> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The 
> requirements
> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear 
> enough on their
> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly 
> specific information.
>
> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power 
> quality", and so not
> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term, 
> along with
> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>
> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that 
> matches how
> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall 
> phrase to
> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a 
> "Other" or "Miscellaneous"
> grouping.
>
> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except possibly 
> the Monitoring MIB
> draft 
> (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a 
> problem if Power Quality
> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it 
> as we use it - all
> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like 
> 'additional',
> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>
> --Bruce
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com 
> <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear all,
>
>     From the meeting minutes
>     (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>
>         Three categories of power quality:
>         1. Nominal power supply
>         2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>         3. Power usage
>
>         [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power
>         quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering
>         would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than
>         power quality.
>
>         [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power
>         Quality to avoid confusion.
>
>     So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>     covers correctly "2.", right?
>     So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>
>     At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>
>     Regards, Benoit.
>
>
>>     I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>     implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>
>>     My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>>     a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>     usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>     Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>     and independent of any usage context.
>>     For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>     measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>     there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>
>>     I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>>     suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>>     mean different things.
>>
>>     --Bruce
>>
>>     On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello)
>>     <jparello@cisco.com <mailto:jparello@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if
>>         there was a
>>         request to change the term "power quality" to "power
>>         characteristics"
>>
>>         I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the
>>         term "power
>>         quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no
>>         such term as
>>         "power characteristics"
>>
>>         The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>         http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0
>>         <http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0>
>>         5
>>
>>         """
>>         Power Quality
>>         Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>         frequencies at a
>>         given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a
>>         set of
>>         reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in
>>         some cases,
>>         relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in
>>         an electric
>>         power system and the loads connected to that electric power
>>         system.
>>         """
>>
>>         I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the
>>         method of
>>         definition is that we take from a source directly at first. I
>>         see no
>>         source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>
>>         Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a
>>         quick search on
>>         how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers more
>>         times on
>>         how a device uses power.
>>
>>         So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical
>>         characteristics
>>         (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however
>>          more commonly
>>         refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and
>>         the 50W at a
>>         steady state over time.
>>
>>
>>         So while the minutes state this...
>>         """
>>         [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics
>>         instead of
>>         Power
>>         Quality to avoid confusion.
>>
>>         [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no
>>         objections.
>>
>>         Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>         - Power State Set
>>         - Energy Object Relationship
>>
>>         [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>         """
>>
>>         Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>         characteristics" are two distinct terms and not  interchangeable.
>>
>>         So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>
>>         I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050 and
>>         if needed
>>         I can add "power characteristics" as described above if
>>         someone has a
>>         reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>
>>         Feedback?
>>         Jp
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         eman mailing list
>>         eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     *Bruce Nordman*
>>     Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>     eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>>     BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>>     510-486-7089 <tel:510-486-7089>
>>     m: 510-501-7943 <tel:510-501-7943>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     eman mailing list
>>     eman@ietf.org  <mailto:eman@ietf.org>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
> BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>


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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem
    description (if any), as there is some confusion.<br>
    According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine
    and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.<br>
    <br>
    Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB
    module contains at the same time:<br>
    - "power quality" variables<br>
    - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of
    reference technical parameters"? Example: current<br>
    Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the
    [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.<br>
    <br>
    Please let us know.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<br>
    <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "></span>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB4DED46.139B0%25brads@coraid.com" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            ">Hi Bruce,</div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            "><br>
          </div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            ">I don't understand the context for choosing those three
            categories., 1, 2 &amp; 3 or how they were derived? Â These
            categories seem pretty much ad hoc .</div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            "><br>
          </div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
              class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Courier; "><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 14px; ">
                <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
                  margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal
                  normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">In contrast, our
                  EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:</p>
              </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                Courier; font-size: 12px; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a></span><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                ">
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><br>
                </p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â Power
                  Quality</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;
                  min-height: 14px; ">Â  Â  Â </p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â Characteristics of the electric current, voltage
                  and</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â frequencies at a given point in an electric power</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â system, evaluated against a set of reference
                  technical</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â relate to the compatibility between electricity</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â supplied in an electric power system and the loads</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â Â connected to that electric power system.</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;
                  min-height: 14px; ">Â  Â  Â </p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â 
                  Â  Â  Reference: [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050"><span
                      style="text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(22,
                      54, 238); ">IEC60050</span></a>]</p>
                <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                  margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
                  0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><br>
                </p>
                <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
                  margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal
                  normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><span
                    style="font-family: Calibri; "><font
                      class="Apple-style-span" size="3">This seems both
                      adequate and clear.Â </font></span></p>
                <span style="font-family: Calibri; "></span></span></span></div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The EMAN
            requirements draft states:</div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            "><br>
          </div>
          <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
            ">
            <blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none;
              padding:0px;">
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Power quality parameters include the
                actualÂ voltage, the actual frequency, the Total Harmonic
                Distortion (THD) ofÂ voltage and current, the impedance
                of an AC phase or of the DCÂ Supply.</p>
            </blockquote>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier"><br>
            </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">That also seems perfectly fine and clear.</p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier"><br>
            </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">The framework draft lists the following 22
              attributes, but many are redundant due to separate tables
              for single-phase, delta-phase, and wye-phase. Â Of these,
              only current isn't obviously a power quality
              characteristic.Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier"><br>
            </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
              Â +------------------+--------------------+ Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â  Â  ACQuality Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |---------------------------------------| Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL,
              DEL,WYE}| Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgVoltage Â  : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgCurrent Â  : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | frequencyÂ  Â  : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | unitMultiplierÂ  : int Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | accuracyÂ  : int Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalActivePowerÂ  : longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalReactivePower : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalApparentPower : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalPowerFactor : long Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
              Â +---------------------------------------+</p>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â +------------------------------------+Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â  Â  ACPhaseÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |------------------------------------|Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | phaseIndex : longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgCurrent : longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | activePower : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | reactivePower : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | apparentPower : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | powerFactor : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
            <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
              Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  +------------------------------------+Â </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "></span></p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â +-------------------------------+---+
                Â  Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â  Â  Â  DelPhase Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                Â  Â  Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |-----------------------------------|Â 
                Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |phaseToNextPhaseVoltageÂ  : longÂ  Â  |Â 
                Â  Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdVoltage : longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                Â  Â  Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdCurrent : longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                Â  Â  Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â +-----------------------------------+</p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier"><br>
              </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â +------------------+-----------+Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â  Â  Â  WYEPhaseÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |------------------------------|Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |phaseToNeutralVoltage : longÂ  |Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdCurrent : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdVoltage : long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
              <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â +------------------------------+Â </p>
              <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                Courier; font-size: 12px; ">Â </span><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 14px; ">
                <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                  Courier"><br>
                </p>
                <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                  Courier">Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue
                  here from the meeting. Can we perhaps get more clarity
                  or simply close this issue?</p>
              </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">
                <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                  Courier"><br>
                </p>
                <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px
                  Courier"><br>
                </p>
              </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:Â <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 14px; ">âŸ</span><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;
                font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Â m:</span><span
                class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 14px; ">Â 917-304-7190</span>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="color: blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration:
                  none; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.coraid.com/" style="color: blue;
                    text-decoration: underline; "><img
                      id="Picture_x0020_1"
                      src="cid:part1.03080301.05030606@cisco.com"
                      alt="Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                      type="image/png" width="95" border="0" height="46"></a></span><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; ">Â Redefining Storage Economics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="font-size: 14px;
        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
          text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
          BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
          0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
            style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 31 Jan 2012
          18:05:50 -0600<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality
        definition is 2.<br>
        Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use
        it, I don't<br>
        think using it works.<br>
        <br>
        The Requirements draft (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
        <br>
        uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes
        of power.<br>
        <br>
        The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything
        other than<br>
        Power, Energy, and Demand.Â  PQ groups 22 values beginning with
        voltage<br>
        and current.<br>
        <br>
        The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".Â  The
        requirements<br>
        refers to "qualitative properties".Â  These generic terms are
        clear enough on their<br>
        own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart
        highly specific information.<br>
        <br>
        So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power
        quality", and so not<br>
        use it to have specific meaning.Â  We can use it as a generic
        term, along with<br>
        "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar
        terms.<br>
        <br>
        Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that
        matches how<br>
        we use Power Quality.Â  This is because we are using it as a
        catchall phrase to<br>
        cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.Â  It is a
        "Other" or "Miscellaneous"<br>
        grouping.<br>
        <br>
        This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except
        possibly the Monitoring MIB<br>
        draft (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>
        It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.Â  Is
        it a problem if Power Quality<br>
        is not defined?Â  If we need a term, then it is simplest to
        define it as we use it - all<br>
        characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.Â  Some term
        like 'additional',<br>
        'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.<br>
        <br>
        --Bruce<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit
          Claise <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear all,<br>
              <br>
              From the meeting minutes (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt"
                target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
              <blockquote>
                <pre>Three categories of power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power 
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering 
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than 
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power 
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
              </blockquote>
              So the current definition of "Power Quality" in <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04"
                target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a>
              covers correctly "2.", right?<br>
              So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?<br>
              <br>
              At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...<br>
              <br>
              Regards, Benoit.
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">I am mindful that whatever we
                    decide, it doesn't change the<br>
                    implementation of EMAN, but you make some good
                    points.<br>
                    <br>
                    My reading of the Power Quality definition below is
                    that it is<br>
                    a judgment of suitability of some power with respect
                    to its<br>
                    usage context, so is a value judgment.<br>
                    Power Characteristics was intended to not be
                    judgmental,<br>
                    and independent of any usage context.<br>
                    For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting
                    what it<br>
                    measures.Â  From what we know from an EMAN
                    perspective,<br>
                    there is no knowledge of what values are preferred
                    to others.<br>
                    <br>
                    I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if
                    there is anything<br>
                    suitable there.Â  I do agree that Quality and
                    Characteristics do<br>
                    mean different things.<br>
                    <br>
                    --Bruce<br>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at
                      9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:jparello@cisco.com"
                          target="_blank">jparello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi,<br>
                        <br>
                        I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it
                        looks as if there was a<br>
                        request to change the term "power quality" to
                        "power characteristics"<br>
                        <br>
                        I was about to make the change but saw that I am
                        using the term "power<br>
                        quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and
                        there is no such term as<br>
                        "power characteristics"<br>
                        <br>
                        The definition from IEC60050 is:<br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0"
                          target="_blank">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0</a><br>
                        5<br>
                        <br>
                        """<br>
                        Power Quality<br>
                        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage
                        and frequencies at a<br>
                        given point in an electric power system,
                        evaluated against a set of<br>
                        reference technical parameters. These parameters
                        might, in some cases,<br>
                        relate to the compatibility between electricity
                        supplied in an electric<br>
                        power system and the loads connected to that
                        electric power system.<br>
                        """<br>
                        <br>
                        I'm reluctant to change that to power
                        characteristics as the method of<br>
                        definition is that we take from a source
                        directly at first. I see no<br>
                        source for power characteristics only power
                        quality.<br>
                        <br>
                        Since I can't find a source for power
                        characteristics, a quick search on<br>
                        how "power characteristics" is used shows that
                        it refers more times on<br>
                        how a device uses power.<br>
                        <br>
                        So to contrast Â "power quality" describes the
                        electrical characteristics<br>
                        (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics"
                        however Â more commonly<br>
                        refers to (example) a device using say 100W at
                        boot up and the 50W at a<br>
                        steady state over time.<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        So while the minutes state this...<br>
                        """<br>
                        [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power
                        Characteristics instead of<br>
                        Power<br>
                        Quality to avoid confusion.<br>
                        <br>
                        [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.
                        Â Notes no objections.<br>
                        <br>
                        Other terms that discussed on the list:<br>
                        - Power State Set<br>
                        - Energy Object Relationship<br>
                        <br>
                        [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion
                        on the list.<br>
                        """<br>
                        <br>
                        Very easy research shows that Â "power quality"
                        and "power<br>
                        characteristics" are two distinct terms and not
                        Â interchangeable.<br>
                        <br>
                        So I'm asking "Are you sure?"<br>
                        <br>
                        I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by
                        IEC60050 and if needed<br>
                        I can add "power characteristics" as described
                        above if someone has a<br>
                        reference. I strongly propose not to use them
                        interchangeably.<br>
                        <br>
                        Feedback?<br>
                        Jp<br>
                        <br>
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        eman mailing list<br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:eman@ietf.org" target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman"
                          target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <br>
                    -- <br>
                    <font size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                    <span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                      National Laboratory</span><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
                      target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target="_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:510-486-7089"
                      value="+15104867089" target="_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                    m: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="tel:510-501-7943" value="+15105017943"
                      target="_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <fieldset></fieldset>
                    <br>
                    <pre>_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org" target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <font size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
        <span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National
          Laboratory</span><br>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
          target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
        510-486-7089<br>
        m: 510-501-7943<br>
        <br>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From moulchan@cisco.com  Tue Feb 14 02:30:14 2012
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Thread-Topic: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "Brad Schoening" <brads@coraid.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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From: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:01:58 -0600
Thread-Topic: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>
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From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Feb 14 07:40:09 2012
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:39:46 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Hi Brad,
> Benoit,
>
> I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning of 'power 
> quality' and put this issue to rest.
I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.

Regards, Benoit.
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com âŸ m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall 
> <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>
>
> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>>
> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>, 
> "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org 
> <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem 
> description (if any), as there is some confusion.
> According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine 
> and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.
>
> Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module 
> contains at the same time:
> - "power quality" variables
> - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of 
> reference technical parameters"? Example: current
> Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the 
> [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>
> Please let us know.
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories., 
>> 1, 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much 
>> ad hoc .
>>
>> In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>
>>
>>   Power Quality
>>
>>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>
>>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>>
>>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>>
>>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>
>>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>
>>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>>
>>        connected to that electric power system.
>>
>>        Reference: [IEC60050 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>]
>>
>>
>> This seems both adequate and clear.
>>
>> The EMAN requirements draft states:
>>
>>     Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
>>     frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and
>>     current, the impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>>
>>
>> That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>>
>>
>> The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are 
>> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and 
>> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality 
>> characteristic.
>>
>>
>>          +------------------+--------------------+
>>
>>          |         ACQuality                     |
>>
>>          |---------------------------------------|
>>
>>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>>
>>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>>
>>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>>
>>          | frequency    : long                   |
>>
>>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>>
>>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>>
>>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>>
>>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>>
>>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>>
>>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>>
>>          +---------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>          +------------------------------------+
>>
>>          |         ACPhase                    |
>>
>>          |------------------------------------|
>>
>>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>>
>>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>>
>>          | activePower : long                 |
>>
>>          | reactivePower : long               |
>>
>>          | apparentPower : long               |
>>
>>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>>
>>          +------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>          +-------------------------------+---+
>>
>>          |        DelPhase                   |
>>
>>          |-----------------------------------|
>>
>>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>>
>>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>>
>>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>>
>>          +-----------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>          +------------------+-----------+
>>
>>          |        WYEPhase              |
>>
>>          |------------------------------|
>>
>>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>>
>>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>>
>>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>>
>>          +------------------------------+
>>
>>
>> Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting. 
>> Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>>
>>
>>
>> e: brads@coraid.com âŸ m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>> Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall 
>> <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>>
>>
>> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>
>> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
>> Cc: "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>> Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality 
>> definition is 2.
>> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, 
>> I don't
>> think using it works.
>>
>> The Requirements draft 
>> (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
>> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of 
>> power.
>>
>> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other than
>> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
>> and current.
>>
>> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The 
>> requirements
>> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear 
>> enough on their
>> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly 
>> specific information.
>>
>> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power 
>> quality", and so not
>> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term, 
>> along with
>> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>>
>> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that 
>> matches how
>> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall 
>> phrase to
>> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a 
>> "Other" or "Miscellaneous"
>> grouping.
>>
>> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except 
>> possibly the Monitoring MIB
>> draft 
>> (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
>> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a 
>> problem if Power Quality
>> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it 
>> as we use it - all
>> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like 
>> 'additional',
>> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>>
>> --Bruce
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com 
>> <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     From the meeting minutes
>>     (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>
>>         Three categories of power quality:
>>         1. Nominal power supply
>>         2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>>         3. Power usage
>>
>>         [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power
>>         quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering
>>         would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than
>>         power quality.
>>
>>         [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power
>>         Quality to avoid confusion.
>>
>>     So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>     covers correctly "2.", right?
>>     So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>
>>     At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>
>>     Regards, Benoit.
>>
>>
>>>     I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>>     implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>>
>>>     My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>>>     a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>>     usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>>     Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>>     and independent of any usage context.
>>>     For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>>     measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>>     there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>>
>>>     I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>>>     suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>>>     mean different things.
>>>
>>>     --Bruce
>>>
>>>     On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello)
>>>     <jparello@cisco.com <mailto:jparello@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi,
>>>
>>>         I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if
>>>         there was a
>>>         request to change the term "power quality" to "power
>>>         characteristics"
>>>
>>>         I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the
>>>         term "power
>>>         quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no
>>>         such term as
>>>         "power characteristics"
>>>
>>>         The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>>         http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0
>>>         <http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0>
>>>         5
>>>
>>>         """
>>>         Power Quality
>>>         Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>>         frequencies at a
>>>         given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a
>>>         set of
>>>         reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in
>>>         some cases,
>>>         relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in
>>>         an electric
>>>         power system and the loads connected to that electric power
>>>         system.
>>>         """
>>>
>>>         I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the
>>>         method of
>>>         definition is that we take from a source directly at first.
>>>         I see no
>>>         source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>
>>>         Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a
>>>         quick search on
>>>         how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers
>>>         more times on
>>>         how a device uses power.
>>>
>>>         So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical
>>>         characteristics
>>>         (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however
>>>          more commonly
>>>         refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and
>>>         the 50W at a
>>>         steady state over time.
>>>
>>>
>>>         So while the minutes state this...
>>>         """
>>>         [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics
>>>         instead of
>>>         Power
>>>         Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>
>>>         [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no
>>>         objections.
>>>
>>>         Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>>         - Power State Set
>>>         - Energy Object Relationship
>>>
>>>         [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>>         """
>>>
>>>         Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>>         characteristics" are two distinct terms and not
>>>          interchangeable.
>>>
>>>         So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>
>>>         I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050
>>>         and if needed
>>>         I can add "power characteristics" as described above if
>>>         someone has a
>>>         reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>>
>>>         Feedback?
>>>         Jp
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         eman mailing list
>>>         eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>
>>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     *Bruce Nordman*
>>>     Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>     eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>>>     BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>>>     510-486-7089 <tel:510-486-7089>
>>>     m: 510-501-7943 <tel:510-501-7943>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     eman mailing list
>>>     eman@ietf.org  <mailto:eman@ietf.org>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> *Bruce Nordman*
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>> BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>
>


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    Hi Brad,<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB5FD298.1AE2B%25brads@coraid.com" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div>Benoit,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the
            meaning of 'power quality' and put this issue to rest.Â  <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB5FD298.1AE2B%25brads@coraid.com" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Brad Schoening</span><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                  style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><span
                    class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                      Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:Â <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                      style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">âŸ</span><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Â m:</span><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                      Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Â 917-304-7190</span></span></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="color: blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration:
                  none; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.coraid.com/" style="color: blue;
                    text-decoration: underline; "><img
                      id="Picture_x0020_1"
                      src="cid:part1.02020506.02010407@cisco.com"
                      alt="Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                      type="image/png" width="95" border="0" height="46"></a></span><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; ">Â Redefining Storage Economics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
          text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
          BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
          0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
            style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012
          10:31:21 -0600<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;,
          "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
            http-equiv="Content-Type">
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear all,<br>
            <br>
            I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the
            problem description (if any), as there is some confusion.<br>
            According to this email thread, the power quality definition
            is fine and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this
            definition.<br>
            <br>
            Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring
            MIB module contains at the same time:<br>
            - "power quality" variables<br>
            - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against
            a set of reference technical parameters"? Example: current<br>
            Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and
            the [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.<br>
            <br>
            Please let us know.<br>
            <br>
            Regards, Benoit.<br>
            <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
              Helvetica; "></span>
            <blockquote cite="mid:CB4DED46.139B0%25brads@coraid.com"
              type="cite">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; ">Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; "><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; ">I don't understand the context
                    for choosing those three categories., 1, 2 &amp; 3
                    or how they were derived? Â These categories seem
                    pretty much ad hoc .</div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; "><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                      Courier; "><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
                        ">
                        <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
                          margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font:
                          normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">In
                          contrast, our EMAN Terminology states,
                          directly quoting IEC 60050:</p>
                      </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 12px; "><a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a></span><span
                        class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                        Helvetica; ">
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; "><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â Power Quality</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; min-height: 14px; ">Â  Â  Â </p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â Characteristics
                          of the electric current, voltage and</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â frequencies at a
                          given point in an electric power</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â system,
                          evaluated against a set of reference technical</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â parameters.
                          These parameters might, in some cases,</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â relate to the
                          compatibility between electricity</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â supplied in an
                          electric power system and the loads</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â Â connected to
                          that electric power system.</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; min-height: 14px; ">Â  Â  Â </p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; ">Â Â  Â  Â  Reference: [<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050"><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline; color:
                              rgb(22, 54, 238); ">IEC60050</span></a>]</p>
                        <p style="font-size: 14px; margin-top: 0px;
                          margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
                          margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal
                          12px/normal Courier; "><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
                          margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font:
                          normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><span
                            style="font-family: Calibri; "><font
                              class="Apple-style-span" size="3">This
                              seems both adequate and clear.Â </font></span></p>
                        <span style="font-family: Calibri; "></span></span></span></div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The
                    EMAN requirements draft states:</div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; "><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; ">
                    <blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none;
                      padding:0px;">
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Power quality parameters include
                        the actualÂ voltage, the actual frequency, the
                        Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) ofÂ voltage and
                        current, the impedance of an AC phase or of the
                        DCÂ Supply.</p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier"><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">That also seems perfectly fine and
                      clear.</p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier"><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">The framework draft lists the
                      following 22 attributes, but many are redundant
                      due to separate tables for single-phase,
                      delta-phase, and wye-phase. Â Of these, only
                      current isn't obviously a power quality
                      characteristic.Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier"><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      Â +------------------+--------------------+ Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â  Â  ACQuality Â  Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      |---------------------------------------| Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â | acConfiguration : enum
                      {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgVoltage Â  : long Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgCurrent Â  : long Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | frequencyÂ  Â  : long Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | unitMultiplierÂ  : int Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | accuracyÂ  : int Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalActivePowerÂ  :
                      longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalReactivePower :
                      long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalApparentPower :
                      long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | totalPowerFactor : long
                      Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      Â +---------------------------------------+</p>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      Â +------------------------------------+Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â  Â  ACPhaseÂ  Â  Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      |------------------------------------|Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | phaseIndex : longÂ  Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | avgCurrent : longÂ  Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | activePower : long Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | reactivePower : long Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | apparentPower : long Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | powerFactor : long Â  Â 
                      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                    <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                      12.0px Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                      +------------------------------------+Â </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                        margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                          class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                        </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                        margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span
                          class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "></span></p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â +-------------------------------+---+ Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â  Â  Â  DelPhase Â  Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â |-----------------------------------|Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â |phaseToNextPhaseVoltageÂ  : longÂ  Â  |Â  Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdVoltage : longÂ  Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdCurrent : longÂ  Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â +-----------------------------------+</p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier"><br>
                      </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â +------------------+-----------+Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â  Â  Â  WYEPhaseÂ  Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â |------------------------------|Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |phaseToNeutralVoltage
                        : longÂ  |Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdCurrent : long Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |thdVoltage : long Â  Â 
                        Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                      <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                        12.0px Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                        Â +------------------------------+Â </p>
                      <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                        Courier; font-size: 12px; ">Â </span><span
                        class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                        Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">
                        <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                          12.0px Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                          12.0px Courier">Reviewing this, I can't
                          understand the issue here from the meeting.
                          Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply
                          close this issue?</p>
                      </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
                        ">
                        <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                          12.0px Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:
                          12.0px Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                      </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
                        ">e:Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>
                      </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
                        ">âŸ</span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                        style="font-size: 12px; font-family: Calibri,
                        sans-serif; ">Â m:</span><span
                        class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                        Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Â 917-304-7190</span>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                        margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                          class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                        </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                        margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                          style="color: blue; font-size: 9pt;
                          text-decoration: none; "><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.coraid.com/" style="color:
                            blue; text-decoration: underline; "><img
                              id="Picture_x0020_1"
                              src="cid:part2.00020507.09030509@cisco.com"
                              alt="Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                              type="image/png" width="95" border="0"
                              height="46"></a></span><span
                          style="font-size: 9pt; ">Â Redefining Storage
                          Economics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                        margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                          style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
                14px; "><br>
              </div>
              <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="font-size: 14px;
                font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
                <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
                  text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium
                  none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in;
                  PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
                  #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none;
                  PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From:
                  </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 31
                  Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>"
                  &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
                  [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power
                Quality definition is 2.<br>
                Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than
                how we use it, I don't<br>
                think using it works.<br>
                <br>
                The Requirements draft (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                <br>
                uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful
                attributes of power.<br>
                <br>
                The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to
                everything other than<br>
                Power, Energy, and Demand.Â  PQ groups 22 values
                beginning with voltage<br>
                and current.<br>
                <br>
                The framework uses the phrase "electrical
                characteristics".Â  The requirements<br>
                refers to "qualitative properties".Â  These generic terms
                are clear enough on their<br>
                own to not require definition, and are not trying to
                impart highly specific information.<br>
                <br>
                So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define
                "power quality", and so not<br>
                use it to have specific meaning.Â  We can use it as a
                generic term, along with<br>
                "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or
                similar terms.<br>
                <br>
                Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined
                term that matches how<br>
                we use Power Quality.Â  This is because we are using it
                as a catchall phrase to<br>
                cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.Â 
                It is a "Other" or "Miscellaneous"<br>
                grouping.<br>
                <br>
                This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts
                except possibly the Monitoring MIB<br>
                draft (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>
                It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various
                values.Â  Is it a problem if Power Quality<br>
                is not defined?Â  If we need a term, then it is simplest
                to define it as we use it - all<br>
                characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.Â 
                Some term like 'additional',<br>
                'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.<br>
                <br>
                --Bruce<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                  AM, Benoit Claise <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear all,<br>
                      <br>
                      From the meeting minutes (<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt"
                        target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                      <blockquote>
                        <pre>Three categories of power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power 
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering 
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than 
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power 
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                      </blockquote>
                      So the current definition of "Power Quality" in <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04"
                        target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a>
                      covers correctly "2.", right?<br>
                      So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?<br>
                      <br>
                      At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to
                      solve...<br>
                      <br>
                      Regards, Benoit.
                      <div>
                        <div class="h5"><br>
                          <br>
                          <blockquote type="cite">I am mindful that
                            whatever we decide, it doesn't change the<br>
                            implementation of EMAN, but you make some
                            good points.<br>
                            <br>
                            My reading of the Power Quality definition
                            below is that it is<br>
                            a judgment of suitability of some power with
                            respect to its<br>
                            usage context, so is a value judgment.<br>
                            Power Characteristics was intended to not be
                            judgmental,<br>
                            and independent of any usage context.<br>
                            For something like voltage, EMAN is just
                            reporting what it<br>
                            measures.Â  From what we know from an EMAN
                            perspective,<br>
                            there is no knowledge of what values are
                            preferred to others.<br>
                            <br>
                            I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see
                            if there is anything<br>
                            suitable there.Â  I do agree that Quality and
                            Characteristics do<br>
                            mean different things.<br>
                            <br>
                            --Bruce<br>
                            <br>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 24,
                              2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <span
                                dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:jparello@cisco.com"
                                  target="_blank">jparello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi,<br>
                                <br>
                                I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82
                                and it looks as if there was a<br>
                                request to change the term "power
                                quality" to "power characteristics"<br>
                                <br>
                                I was about to make the change but saw
                                that I am using the term "power<br>
                                quality" as directly defined by IEC
                                60050 and there is no such term as<br>
                                "power characteristics"<br>
                                <br>
                                The definition from IEC60050 is:<br>
                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0"
                                  target="_blank">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0</a><br>
                                5<br>
                                <br>
                                """<br>
                                Power Quality<br>
                                Characteristics of the electric current,
                                voltage and frequencies at a<br>
                                given point in an electric power system,
                                evaluated against a set of<br>
                                reference technical parameters. These
                                parameters might, in some cases,<br>
                                relate to the compatibility between
                                electricity supplied in an electric<br>
                                power system and the loads connected to
                                that electric power system.<br>
                                """<br>
                                <br>
                                I'm reluctant to change that to power
                                characteristics as the method of<br>
                                definition is that we take from a source
                                directly at first. I see no<br>
                                source for power characteristics only
                                power quality.<br>
                                <br>
                                Since I can't find a source for power
                                characteristics, a quick search on<br>
                                how "power characteristics" is used
                                shows that it refers more times on<br>
                                how a device uses power.<br>
                                <br>
                                So to contrast Â "power quality"
                                describes the electrical characteristics<br>
                                (voltage and frequency). "Power
                                characteristics" however Â more commonly<br>
                                refers to (example) a device using say
                                100W at boot up and the 50W at a<br>
                                steady state over time.<br>
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                So while the minutes state this...<br>
                                """<br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as
                                Power Characteristics instead of<br>
                                Power<br>
                                Quality to avoid confusion.<br>
                                <br>
                                [BC] - Asks room if Power
                                Characteristics is OK. Â Notes no
                                objections.<br>
                                <br>
                                Other terms that discussed on the list:<br>
                                - Power State Set<br>
                                - Energy Object Relationship<br>
                                <br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to just continue the
                                discussion on the list.<br>
                                """<br>
                                <br>
                                Very easy research shows that Â "power
                                quality" and "power<br>
                                characteristics" are two distinct terms
                                and not Â interchangeable.<br>
                                <br>
                                So I'm asking "Are you sure?"<br>
                                <br>
                                I proposed to keep "power quality" as
                                defined by IEC60050 and if needed<br>
                                I can add "power characteristics" as
                                described above if someone has a<br>
                                reference. I strongly propose not to use
                                them interchangeably.<br>
                                <br>
                                Feedback?<br>
                                Jp<br>
                                <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                eman mailing list<br>
                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                                  target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman"
                                  target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br clear="all">
                            <br>
                            -- <br>
                            <font size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                            <span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence
                              Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br>
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
                              target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov"
                              target="_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="tel:510-486-7089"
                              value="+15104867089" target="_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                            m: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="tel:510-501-7943"
                              value="+15105017943" target="_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org" target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                          </blockquote>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
                <br clear="all">
                <br>
                -- <br>
                <font size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                <span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                  National Laboratory</span><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                510-486-7089<br>
                m: 510-501-7943<br>
                <br>
              </span> </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Hi,

=20

So for point of reference we've seen at most about 500 children for a
parent but the average is typically < 100.=20

=20

If  you have the field defined at 64K you can easily accommodate 1000
children.  Seems sufficient to me.

Jp

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:36 AM
To: Ira McDonald
Cc: eman@ietf.org; Mielke,William F (Bill)
Subject: Re: [eman] Comments on draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-03

=20

<deletia>=20
    =20

The object that would contain the most UUID is eoChildrenList. So how
many Children can a parent have? 10, 15, 100?

Regards, Benoit.




=20

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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So for point of reference we&#8217;ve seen at most about 500 children =
for a parent but the average is typically &lt; 100. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If &nbsp;you have the field defined at 64K you can easily accommodate =
1000 children. &nbsp;Seems sufficient to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 13, 2012 =
5:36 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ira McDonald<br><b>Cc:</b> eman@ietf.org; =
Mielke,William F (Bill)<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] Comments on =
draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-03<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&lt;deletia&gt; =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
re><p class=3DMsoNormal>The object that would contain the most UUID is =
eoChildrenList. So how many Children can a parent have? 10, 15, =
100?<br><br>Regards, Benoit.<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'mso-element:comment-list'><![if !supportAnnotations]><hr =
class=3Dmsocomoff align=3Dleft size=3D1 =
width=3D"33%"><![endif]></div></body></html>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CCEC35.9AA81EEE--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Feb 16 10:44:41 2012
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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:44:16 -0800
Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: [eman] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Energy Management Working Group of th=
e IETF.

	Title           : Energy-aware Networks and Devices MIB
	Author(s)       : John Parello
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2012-02-16

        This document defines a subset of a Management Information Base
        (MIB) for energy management of devices.  The module addresses
        device identification, context information, and the
        relationships between reporting devices, remote devices, and
        monitoring devices.

     =


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt


From bclaise@cisco.com  Thu Feb 16 10:55:11 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
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Dear all,

Here is a new draft
-   Feedback from Bill Mielke inserted. 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00998.html
     There are many changes based on the email thread.
-   Copied the terminology from john Parello draft version 4
-   Removed the eoPhysicalEntity (PhysicalIndexOrZero) as the 
entPhysIndex index from the ENTITY-MIB is required
-   Use zero-length string instead of null, as suggested by Juergen 
Schoenwalder.
-   Expressed that the entPhysicalUris, inherited from the ENTITY-MIB, 
is read-write.
-  And many more improvements

Here are the diffs with the previous version.
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt

Please review.

Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following

  - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
         size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".


Regards, John and Benoit (as a contributor)
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Energy Management Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title           : Energy-aware Networks and Devices MIB
> 	Author(s)       : John Parello
>                            Benoit Claise
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 42
> 	Date            : 2012-02-16
>
>          This document defines a subset of a Management Information Base
>          (MIB) for energy management of devices.  The module addresses
>          device identification, context information, and the
>          relationships between reporting devices, remote devices, and
>          monitoring devices.
>
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de  Thu Feb 16 11:24:31 2012
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
 
> Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following
> 
>  - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
>         size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".

I can't answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used
for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render
things properly.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From blueroofmusic@gmail.com  Thu Feb 16 11:40:55 2012
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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,  eman@ietf.org, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Hi,

About UUIDs:

If the UUID is expressed as a URI following the ABNF
in RFC 4122, then yes, the length is always *exactly*
45 octets.

See page 4 of RFC 4122, which includes this example:

urn:uuid:f81d4fae-7dec-11d0-a765-00a0c91e6bf6

I suggest the EMAN WG not "compact" this into a
binary format, though that might make sense if a
large number of UUIDs must be stored (e.g., for
complex parent/child relationships).

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
> > Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following
> >
> >  - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
> >         size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".
>
> I can't answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used
> for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render
> things properly.
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>

--00504502cfc25c3b8a04b91a01bc
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Hi,<br><br>About UUIDs:<br><br>If the UUID is expressed as a URI following =
the ABNF<br>in RFC 4122, then yes, the length is always *exactly*<br>45 oct=
ets.<br><br>See page 4 of RFC 4122, which includes this example:<br><br>
urn:uuid:f81d4fae-7dec-11d0-a765-00a0c91e6bf6<br><br>I suggest the EMAN WG =
not &quot;compact&quot; this into a<br>binary format, though that might mak=
e sense if a<br>large number of UUIDs must be stored (e.g., for<br>complex =
parent/child relationships).<br>
<br>Cheers,<br>- Ira<br><br clear=3D"all">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software=
 Architect)<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEE=
E-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>Co-Chair=
 - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP &a=
mp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(=
51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_=
blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/high=
northinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><b=
r>mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bluer=
oofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter=A0 579 Park Place=A0 Saline, MI=A0 48176=A0 734-944-0094<br>Summer=
=A0 PO Box 221=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=A0 906-494-2434<div style=3D"displ=
ay:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:=
inline"></div><div>
</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Juergen=
 Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07=
:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0- Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 size of &quot; OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>I can&#39;t answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are u=
sed<br>
for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render<br>
things properly.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
/js<br>
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br=
>
Phone: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203587" value=3D"+494212003587">+49=
 421 200 3587</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany<br>
Fax: =A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203103" value=3D"+494212003103">+=
49 421 200 3103</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-univer=
sity.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">_____________________=
__________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><div style id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></=
div>

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From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Feb 17 06:10:11 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
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Hi Juergen,
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
>> Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following
>>
>>   - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
>>          size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".
> I can't answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used
> for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render
> things properly.
That makes a lot of sense.
Would you able to help on this one? ;-)

Regards, Benoit

>
> /js
>


From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Feb 17 06:17:29 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
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Hi Juergen,

Thinking some more about this one.
eoProxyParentUUID is only used as an index.
Note: I know, it's not ideal to have an OCTET STRING as an index! If 
anybody has a better idea...
Since that eoProxyParentUUID index is "not-accessible", does it still 
have make sense to have a TC with the proper DISPLAY-HINTs?

Regards, Benoit.
> Hi Juergen,
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>
>>> Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following
>>>
>>>   - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
>>>          size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".
>> I can't answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used
>> for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render
>> things properly.
> That makes a lot of sense.
> Would you able to help on this one? ;-)
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>>
>> /js
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Feb 17 06:30:44 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Hi Daniel,
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Yes, I believe the parameters of power states should reside in EMAN 
> framework, not in enNMS.
>
> This is because such parameters are specific to hardware and software 
> of the network entity, so it is natural to keep them there, especially 
> in multi-vendor environment.
>
> So far we have practically identified performance (in percent) and 
> time to transition between states as leading modalities.
What does the performance mean?
Performance in term of Energy consumption? Throughput? CPU? Services? 
Component in sleep mode? something else?
Basically, it depends how you want to optimize your device. So not as 
simple as simply "performance"

Regards, Benoit.

>
> However, I think we should design EMAN in such way that more 
> parameters can be added if needed to describe multidimensional power 
> states.
>
> Let's construct an example.
>
> An enterprise switch may have two main power states - 100 percent 
> throughput (state 0) and 50 percent throughput (state 1). It may take 
> 10 seconds to change from 0->1 and 20 seconds to 1->0. Since enNMS is 
> not aware of this, a switch must report its capabilities to management.
>
> However, it may also have an option to enable additional power savings 
> based on IEEE 802.3az with various time parameters.
>
> So altogether we may have states 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, 1.1 based on 
> throughput and increasing delay (in ms).
>
>
>
> *From*: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> *Sent*: Monday, February 13, 2012 01:15 AM
> *To*: Daniel Kharitonov
> *Cc*: quittek@neclab.edu <quittek@neclab.edu>; eman@ietf.org 
> <eman@ietf.org>
> *Subject*: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
> See in line.
>> Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the full eman discussions archive.
>> I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:
>>
>> 1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but immediately available)"
>>
>> This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately available, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sleep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability.
>>
>> It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.
>>
>> 2) Section 5.2 "Power State"
>>
>> Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteristics of available states along same lines.
>>
>> For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.
> Do you believe that this should be part of the EMAN framework (and 
> therefore part of the Enegy Objects)? Or can we assume that this is 
> done by the EnNMS?
>
> I mean: let's imagine that we want this functionality in the EMAN 
> framework. Taking back your sentence:
>
>       an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.
>
> What is the capacity? QoS? Cpu? Energy consumption? Packets/s for a 
> router?
> Basically, it depends: energy object type, device function, parameters 
> to optimize, etc...
>
> So shouldn't leave this task to the EnNMS...
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>
>> Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kharitonov
>> Juniper Networks Inc
>> 1194 N Mathilda Ave
>> Sunnyvale CA
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>


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    Hi Daniel, <br>
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      type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <font style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
        &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73,
        125);">
        <br>
        Hi Benoit,<br>
        <br>
        Thanks for the reply.<br>
        <br>
        Yes, I believe the parameters of power states should reside in
        EMAN framework, not in enNMS.<br>
        <br>
        This is because such parameters are specific to hardware and
        software of the network entity, so it is natural to keep them
        there, especially in multi-vendor environment.<br>
        <br>
        So far we have practically identified performance (in percent)
        and time to transition between states as leading modalities.<br>
      </font></blockquote>
    What does the performance mean?<br>
    Performance in term of Energy consumption? Throughput? CPU?
    Services? Component in sleep mode? something else?<br>
    Basically, it depends how you want to optimize your device. So not
    as simple as simply "performance"<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967E39175@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net"
      type="cite"><font
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
        However, I think we should design EMAN in such way that more
        parameters can be added if needed to describe multidimensional
        power states.<br>
        <br>
        Let's construct an example. <br>
        <br>
        An enterprise switch may have two main power states - 100
        percent throughput (state 0) and 50 percent throughput (state
        1). It may take 10 seconds to change from 0-&gt;1 and 20 seconds
        to 1-&gt;0. Since enNMS is not aware of this, a switch must
        report its capabilities to management.<br>
        <br>
        However, it may also have an option to enable additional power
        savings based on IEEE 802.3az with various time parameters.<br>
        <br>
        So altogether we may have states 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, 1.1 based on
        throughput and increasing delay (in ms).<br>
        <br>
      </font><br>
      Â <br>
      <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
        1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
        <font
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><b>From</b>:
          Benoit Claise [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:bclaise@cisco.com</a>]
          <br>
          <b>Sent</b>: Monday, February 13, 2012 01:15 AM<br>
          <b>To</b>: Daniel Kharitonov
          <br>
          <b>Cc</b>: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:quittek@neclab.edu">quittek@neclab.edu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:quittek@neclab.edu">&lt;quittek@neclab.edu&gt;</a>;
          <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">&lt;eman@ietf.org&gt;</a>
          <br>
          <b>Subject</b>: Re: [eman] Feedback on
          draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
          <br>
        </font>Â <br>
      </div>
      Hi Daniel,<br>
      <br>
      Thanks for your feedback.<br>
      See in line.<br>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967AFEB1E@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net"
        type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the full eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:

1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but immediately available)"

This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately available, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sleep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability. 

It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.

2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in performance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteristics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Do you believe that this should be part of the EMAN framework (and
      therefore part of the Enegy Objects)? Or can we assume that this
      is done by the EnNMS?<br>
      <br>
      I mean: let's imagine that we want this functionality in the EMAN
      framework. Taking back your sentence:<br>
      <blockquote>
        <pre wrap=""> an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      What is the capacity? QoS? Cpu? Energy consumption? Packets/s for
      a router? <br>
      Basically, it depends: energy object type, device function,
      parameters to optimize, etc...<br>
      <br>
      So shouldn't leave this task to the EnNMS...<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit.<br>
      Â Â Â  <br>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:14803CE6B7CFE0439D9346D27557A82A5967AFEB1E@EMBX02-HQ.jnpr.net"
        type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced power states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.


--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA
_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>


</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060008020702050205040008--

From dkh@juniper.net  Fri Feb 17 12:54:36 2012
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From: Daniel Kharitonov <dkh@juniper.net>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:51:31 -0800
Thread-Topic: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
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Hi Benoit,

> What does the performance mean?
> Performance in term of Energy consumption? Throughput? CPU? Services? Com=
ponent in sleep mode? something else?

For eman purposes, performance equates "useful work" as defined in energy e=
fficiency metrics for this device class, such as ATIS TEER.
This is, indeed, very simple.

Cheers.


________________________________________
From: Benoit Claise [bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:30 AM
To: Daniel Kharitonov
Cc: 'eman@ietf.org'; 'quittek@neclab.eu'
Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05

Hi Daniel,

Hi Benoit,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I believe the parameters of power states should reside in EMAN framewo=
rk, not in enNMS.

This is because such parameters are specific to hardware and software of th=
e network entity, so it is natural to keep them there, especially in multi-=
vendor environment.

So far we have practically identified performance (in percent) and time to =
transition between states as leading modalities.
What does the performance mean?
Performance in term of Energy consumption? Throughput? CPU? Services? Compo=
nent in sleep mode? something else?
Basically, it depends how you want to optimize your device. So not as simpl=
e as simply "performance"

Regards, Benoit.


However, I think we should design EMAN in such way that more parameters can=
 be added if needed to describe multidimensional power states.

Let's construct an example.

An enterprise switch may have two main power states - 100 percent throughpu=
t (state 0) and 50 percent throughput (state 1). It may take 10 seconds to =
change from 0->1 and 20 seconds to 1->0. Since enNMS is not aware of this, =
a switch must report its capabilities to management.

However, it may also have an option to enable additional power savings base=
d on IEEE 802.3az with various time parameters.

So altogether we may have states 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, 1.1 based on throughput and=
 increasing delay (in ms).



From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 01:15 AM
To: Daniel Kharitonov
Cc: quittek@neclab.edu<mailto:quittek@neclab.edu> <quittek@neclab.edu><mail=
to:quittek@neclab.edu>; eman@ietf.org<mailto:eman@ietf.org> <eman@ietf.org>=
<mailto:eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] Feedback on draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your feedback.
See in line.

Apologies if this has surfaced before as I did not have time to read the fu=
ll eman discussions archive.
I have two notes regarding the aforementioned draft:

1) Section 3.1 lists the following state "sleep state (not functional, but =
immediately available)"

This seems to be a contradictory description. If a system is immediately av=
ailable, it is able to transition to full load instantly, in real time. Typ=
ically, a ready state with no load is called "idle state". Henceworth, "sle=
ep state" should mean some sort of a deep power-saving mode that requires a=
 "wake-up" with no requirement for immediate availability.

It would be good to clarify what the authors meant to say here.

2) Section 5.2 "Power State"

Since the document correctly links reduced power states to tradeoffs in per=
formance, service or capacity, it would be logical to report the characteri=
stics of available states along same lines.

For example, an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that =
device supports not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,=
b,c} watts but also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected=
 in-out transition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

Do you believe that this should be part of the EMAN framework (and therefor=
e part of the Enegy Objects)? Or can we assume that this is done by the EnN=
MS?

I mean: let's imagine that we want this functionality in the EMAN framework=
. Taking back your sentence:

 an operator of energy NMS might be interested in knowing that device suppo=
rts not only power states A, B, C with expected consumption {a,b,c} watts b=
ut also operates at {100,50,30} capacity in those with expected in-out tran=
sition time not to exceed X/Y seconds.

What is the capacity? QoS? Cpu? Energy consumption? Packets/s for a router?
Basically, it depends: energy object type, device function, parameters to o=
ptimize, etc...

So shouldn't leave this task to the EnNMS...

Regards, Benoit.



Merely describing power states in not enough as energy savings in reduced p=
ower states must be necessarily weighted against the drawbacks.


--
Daniel Kharitonov
Juniper Networks Inc
1194 N Mathilda Ave
Sunnyvale CA
_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org<mailto:eman@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman






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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0418266240f04e04b9332a33
Cc: eman@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [eman] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt
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--f46d0418266240f04e04b9332a33
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Benoit and Juergen,

If the UUID is represented as a URI that conforms
to RFC 4122, the correct datatype is DisplayString
(i.e., visible ASCII) - non-ASCII octets are impossible
in the RFC 4122 encoding.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Juergen,
>
> Thinking some more about this one.
> eoProxyParentUUID is only used as an index.
> Note: I know, it's not ideal to have an OCTET STRING as an index! If
> anybody has a better idea...
> Since that eoProxyParentUUID index is "not-accessible", does it still have
> make sense to have a TC with the proper DISPLAY-HINTs?
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>
>  Hi Juergen,
>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>
>>>  Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following
>>>>
>>>>  - Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current
>>>>         size of " OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))".
>>>>
>>> I can't answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used
>>> for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render
>>> things properly.
>>>
>> That makes a lot of sense.
>> Would you able to help on this one? ;-)
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
>>> /js
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/eman<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman>
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/eman<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman>
>

--f46d0418266240f04e04b9332a33
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Benoit and Juergen,<br><br>If the UUID is represented as a URI that conf=
orms<br>to RFC 4122, the correct datatype is DisplayString<br>(i.e., visibl=
e ASCII) - non-ASCII octets are impossible<br>in the RFC 4122 encoding.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br>- Ira<br><br clear=3D"all">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software=
 Architect)<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEE=
E-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>Co-Chair=
 - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP &a=
mp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(=
51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_=
blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/high=
northinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><b=
r>mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bluer=
oofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter=A0 579 Park Place=A0 Saline, MI=A0 48176=A0 734-944-0094<br>Summer=
=A0 PO Box 221=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=A0 906-494-2434<div style=3D"displ=
ay:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:=
inline"></div><div>
</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Benoit =
Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Juergen,<br>
<br>
Thinking some more about this one.<br>
eoProxyParentUUID is only used as an index.<br>
Note: I know, it&#39;s not ideal to have an OCTET STRING as an index! If an=
ybody has a better idea...<br>
Since that eoProxyParentUUID index is &quot;not-accessible&quot;, does it s=
till have make sense to have a TC with the proper DISPLAY-HINTs?<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Juergen,<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Only one open issue left: I had not time to check the following<br>
<br>
 =A0- Is the UUID always 45 bytes? eoProxyParentUUID has a current<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 size of &quot; OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..45))&quot;.<br>
</blockquote>
I can&#39;t answer the question for sure but I suggest that TCs are used<br=
>
for the UUIDs that declare proper DISPLAY-HINTs so that tools render<br>
things properly.<br>
</blockquote>
That makes a lot of sense.<br>
Would you able to help on this one? ;-)<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
/js<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/eman</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><div style id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></=
div>

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 03:17:27PM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:

> Since that eoProxyParentUUID index is "not-accessible", does it
> still have make sense to have a TC with the proper DISPLAY-HINTs?

Yes. Tools are smart enough to 'unpack' the instance identifier
and to render the values according to DISPLAY-HINTs.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From bnordman@lbl.gov  Sun Feb 19 22:43:39 2012
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Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:43:34 -0800
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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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It seems to me that the definition of power quality
implies a reference point for evaluating quality
that is absent in the EMAN context - making it
unsuitable to reference.
There is actually no need to reference the term
"power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore
no need to have a definition for it.
While it would be best to not use the term at all in
the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power
characteristics would likely not mislead people, but
this would not require a definition.
The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"
in many of the entries.  These can simply be changed
to "Power".
Problem solved.
--Bruce

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>  Hi Brad,
>
>   Benoit,
>
>  I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning of 'power
> quality' and put this issue to rest.
>
> I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>
>
>   Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> R=
edefining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
>  From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
>   Dear all,
>
> I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem description
> (if any), as there is some confusion.
> According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine and
> the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.
>
> Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module
> contains at the same time:
> - "power quality" variables
> - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of
> reference technical parameters"? Example: current
> Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the
> [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>
> Please let us know.
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>
>  Hi Bruce,
>
>  I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories., 1,
> 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much ad hoc=
 .
>
>  In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>
>
>    Power Quality
>
>
>
>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>
>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>
>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>
>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>
>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>
>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>
>        connected to that electric power system.
>
>
>
>        Reference: [IEC60050<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman=
-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>
> ]
>
>
>  This seems both adequate and clear.
>  The EMAN requirements draft states:
>
>   Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
> frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and current, th=
e
> impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>
>
>  That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>
>
>  The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are
> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and
> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality
> characteristic.
>
>
>           +------------------+--------------------+
>
>          |         ACQuality                     |
>
>          |---------------------------------------|
>
>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>
>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>
>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>
>          | frequency    : long                   |
>
>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>
>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>
>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>
>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>
>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>
>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>
>          +---------------------------------------+
>
>           +------------------------------------+
>
>          |         ACPhase                    |
>
>          |------------------------------------|
>
>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>
>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>
>          | activePower : long                 |
>
>          | reactivePower : long               |
>
>          | apparentPower : long               |
>
>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>
>          +------------------------------------+
>
>
>           +-------------------------------+---+
>
>          |        DelPhase                   |
>
>          |-----------------------------------|
>
>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>
>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>
>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>
>          +-----------------------------------+
>
>
>           +------------------+-----------+
>
>          |        WYEPhase              |
>
>          |------------------------------|
>
>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>
>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>
>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>
>          +------------------------------+
>
>
>
>  Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting. Can
> we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>
>
>
>  e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> R=
edefining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
>  Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality
> definition is 2.
> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, I
> don't
> think using it works.
>
> The Requirements draft (
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of power=
.
>
> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other than
> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
> and current.
>
> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The
> requirements
> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear enough
> on their
> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly
> specific information.
>
> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power quality",
> and so not
> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term, along
> with
> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>
> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that matches
> how
> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall
> phrase to
> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a "Other"
> or "Miscellaneous"
> grouping.
>
> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except possibly th=
e
> Monitoring MIB
> draft (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.tx=
t
> ).
> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a
> problem if Power Quality
> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it as w=
e
> use it - all
> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like
> 'additional',
> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>
> --Bruce
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>  Dear all,
>>
>> From the meeting minutes (
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>
>> Three categories of power quality:
>> 1. Nominal power supply
>> 2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>> 3. Power usage
>>
>> [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Powe=
r
>> quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering
>> would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than
>> power quality.
>>
>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Po=
wer
>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>
>>  So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04 covers
>> correctly "2.", right?
>> So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>
>> At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>
>>
>> I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>> implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>
>> My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>> a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>> usage context, so is a value judgment.
>> Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>> and independent of any usage context.
>> For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>> measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>> there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>
>> I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>> suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>> mean different things.
>>
>> --Bruce
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <
>> jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if there was a
>>> request to change the term "power quality" to "power characteristics"
>>>
>>> I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the term "power
>>> quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no such term as
>>> "power characteristics"
>>>
>>> The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>> http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=3D617-0=
1-0
>>> 5
>>>
>>> """
>>> Power Quality
>>> Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a
>>> given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a set of
>>> reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>> relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in an electric
>>> power system and the loads connected to that electric power system.
>>> """
>>>
>>> I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the method of
>>> definition is that we take from a source directly at first. I see no
>>> source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>
>>> Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a quick search o=
n
>>> how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers more times on
>>> how a device uses power.
>>>
>>> So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical characteristic=
s
>>> (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however  more commonly
>>> refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and the 50W at a
>>> steady state over time.
>>>
>>>
>>> So while the minutes state this...
>>> """
>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of
>>> Power
>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>
>>> [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no objections.
>>>
>>> Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>> - Power State Set
>>> - Energy Object Relationship
>>>
>>> [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>> """
>>>
>>> Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>> characteristics" are two distinct terms and not  interchangeable.
>>>
>>> So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>
>>> I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050 and if needed
>>> I can add "power characteristics" as described above if someone has a
>>> reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>>
>>> Feedback?
>>> Jp
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eman mailing list
>>> eman@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Bruce Nordman*
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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It seems to me that the definition of power quality<br>implies a reference =
point for evaluating quality<br>that is absent in the EMAN context - making=
 it<br>unsuitable to reference.<br>There is actually no need to reference t=
he term<br>
&quot;power quality&quot; at all in the drafts, and therefore<br>no need to=
 have a definition for it.<br>While it would be best to not use the term at=
 all in<br>the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power <br>charac=
teristics would likely not mislead people, but<br>
this would not require a definition.<br>The monitoring MIB draft does use &=
quot;PwrQuality&quot;<br>in many of the entries.=C2=A0 These can simply be =
changed<br>to &quot;Power&quot;.<br>Problem solved.<br>--Bruce<br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Hi Brad,<div class=3D"im"><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div>Benoit,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the
            meaning of &#39;power quality&#39; and put this issue to rest.=
=C2=A0 <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></div>
    I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Sch=
oening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>

                </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@c=
oraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7=
190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span=
></span></p>

              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"=
><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:part1.02020506.02010407@cisco.com=
" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" height=3D=
"46" border=3D"0" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=
=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>

              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span>
        <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;padding-le=
ft:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium =
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;bo=
rder-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012
          10:31:21 -0600<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@c=
oraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt=
;,
          &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@iet=
f.org</a>&quot;
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
         =20
          <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Dear all,<br>
            <br>
            I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the
            problem description (if any), as there is some confusion.<br>
            According to this email thread, the power quality definition
            is fine and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this
            definition.<br>
            <br>
            Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring
            MIB module contains at the same time:<br>
            - &quot;power quality&quot; variables<br>
            - non &quot;power quality&quot; variables, i.e not &quot;evalua=
ted against
            a set of reference technical parameters&quot;? Example: current=
<br>
            Hence the table name should NOT contain &quot;Power Quality&quo=
t; and
            the [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.<br>
            <br>
            Please let us know.<br>
            <br>
            Regards, Benoit.<br>
            <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"></span>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">I don&#39;t understand the context
                    for choosing those three categories., 1, 2 &amp; 3
                    or how they were derived? =C2=A0These categories seem
                    pretty much ad hoc .</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Courier"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x">
                        <p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">I=
n
                          contrast, our EMAN Terminology states,
                          directly quoting IEC 60050:</p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;font-size:1=
2px"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-0=
4" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definiti=
ons-04</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0Power Quality</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Characteristics
                          of the electric current, voltage and</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0frequencies at a
                          given point in an electric power</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0system,
                          evaluated against a set of reference technical</p=
>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0parameters.
                          These parameters might, in some cases,</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0relate to the
                          compatibility between electricity</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0supplied in an
                          electric power system and the loads</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0connected to
                          that electric power system.</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reference: [<a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(22,54,238)">IEC60=
050</span></a>]</p>

                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><=
span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><font size=3D"3">This
                              seems both adequate and clear.=C2=A0</font></=
span></p>
                        <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"></span></span><=
/span></div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
                    EMAN requirements draft states:</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
                    <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padd=
ing:0px">
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">Power quality parameters include
                        the actual=C2=A0voltage, the actual frequency, the
                        Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of=C2=A0voltage and
                        current, the impedance of an AC phase or of the
                        DC=C2=A0Supply.</p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>That also seems perfectly fine and
                      clear.</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>The framework draft lists the
                      following 22 attributes, but many are redundant
                      due to separate tables for single-phase,
                      delta-phase, and wye-phase. =C2=A0Of these, only
                      current isn&#39;t obviously a power quality
                      characteristic.=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+------------------+--------------------+ =C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACQuality =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      |---------------------------------------| =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| acConfiguration : enum
                      {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgVoltage =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgCurrent =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | frequency=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | unitMultiplier=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | accuracy=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalActivePower=C2=A0 :
                      long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalReactivePower :
                      long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalApparentPower :
                      long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalPowerFactor : long
                      =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+---------------------------------------+</p>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+------------------------------------+=C2=A0</p=
>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACPhase=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      |------------------------------------|=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | phaseIndex : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | activePower : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | reactivePower : long =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | apparentPower : long =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | powerFactor : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      +------------------------------------+=C2=A0</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
<br>

                        </span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span></p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+-------------------------------+---+ =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DelPhase =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|-----------------------------------|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|phaseToNextPhaseVoltage=C2=A0 : long=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+-----------------------------------+</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r"><br>
                      </p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+------------------+-----------+=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WYEPhase=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|------------------------------|=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|phaseToNeutralVoltage
                        : long=C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+------------------------------+=C2=A0</p>
                      <span style=3D"font-family:Courier;font-size:12px">=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier">Reviewing this, I can&#39;t
                          understand the issue here from the meeting.
                          Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply
                          close this issue?</p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@=
coraid.com</a>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_bla=
nk">917-304-7190</a></span>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
<br>

                        </span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decorati=
on:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:part2.00020507.09030509@c=
isco.com" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" h=
eight=3D"46" border=3D"0" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage
                          Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>

                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
              </div>
              <span style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>
                <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;pa=
dding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom=
:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-botto=
m:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:
                  </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.=
gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 31
                  Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">em=
an@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
                  [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                Per Benoit&#39;s email below, I agree that the current Powe=
r
                Quality definition is 2.<br>
                Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than
                how we use it, I don&#39;t<br>
                think using it works.<br>
                <br>
                The Requirements draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/d=
raft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/i=
d/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                <br>
                uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful
                attributes of power.<br>
                <br>
                The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to
                everything other than<br>
                Power, Energy, and Demand.=C2=A0 PQ groups 22 values
                beginning with voltage<br>
                and current.<br>
                <br>
                The framework uses the phrase &quot;electrical
                characteristics&quot;.=C2=A0 The requirements<br>
                refers to &quot;qualitative properties&quot;.=C2=A0 These g=
eneric terms
                are clear enough on their<br>
                own to not require definition, and are not trying to
                impart highly specific information.<br>
                <br>
                So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define
                &quot;power quality&quot;, and so not<br>
                use it to have specific meaning.=C2=A0 We can use it as a
                generic term, along with<br>
                &quot;characteristics&quot;, &quot;properties&quot;, &quot;=
measurements&quot;, or
                similar terms.<br>
                <br>
                Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined
                term that matches how<br>
                we use Power Quality.=C2=A0 This is because we are using it
                as a catchall phrase to<br>
                cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=
=A0
                It is a &quot;Other&quot; or &quot;Miscellaneous&quot;<br>
                grouping.<br>
                <br>
                This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts
                except possibly the Monitoring MIB<br>
                draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-en=
ergy-monitoring-mib-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-=
ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>
                It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various
                values.=C2=A0 Is it a problem if Power Quality<br>
                is not defined?=C2=A0 If we need a term, then it is simples=
t
                to define it as we use it - all<br>
                characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0
                Some term like &#39;additional&#39;,<br>
                &#39;extra&#39;, &#39;optional&#39;, &#39;detailed&#39;, or=
 such would be clear.<br>
                <br>
                --Bruce<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                  AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Dear all,<br=
>
                      <br>
                      From the meeting minutes (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                      <blockquote>
                        <pre>Three categories of power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power=
=20
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering=20
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than=20
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power=
=20
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                      </blockquote>
                      So the current definition of &quot;Power Quality&quot=
; in <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-0=
4" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definiti=
ons-04</a>
                      covers correctly &quot;2.&quot;, right?<br>
                      So, is Power Characteristics &quot;1.&quot;, &quot;2.=
&quot;, and &quot;3.&quot;?<br>
                      <br>
                      At the end, I&#39;m not sure which problem we try to
                      solve...<br>
                      <br>
                      Regards, Benoit.
                      <div>
                        <div><br>
                          <br>
                          <blockquote type=3D"cite">I am mindful that
                            whatever we decide, it doesn&#39;t change the<b=
r>
                            implementation of EMAN, but you make some
                            good points.<br>
                            <br>
                            My reading of the Power Quality definition
                            below is that it is<br>
                            a judgment of suitability of some power with
                            respect to its<br>
                            usage context, so is a value judgment.<br>
                            Power Characteristics was intended to not be
                            judgmental,<br>
                            and independent of any usage context.<br>
                            For something like voltage, EMAN is just
                            reporting what it<br>
                            measures.=C2=A0 From what we know from an EMAN
                            perspective,<br>
                            there is no knowledge of what values are
                            preferred to others.<br>
                            <br>
                            I don&#39;t have my IEEE Dictionary handy to se=
e
                            if there is anything<br>
                            suitable there.=C2=A0 I do agree that Quality a=
nd
                            Characteristics do<br>
                            mean different things.<br>
                            <br>
                            --Bruce<br>
                            <br>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 24,
                              2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jparello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
parello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi,<br>
                                <br>
                                I&#39;m looking at the minutes from IETF-82
                                and it looks as if there was a<br>
                                request to change the term &quot;power
                                quality&quot; to &quot;power characteristic=
s&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                I was about to make the change but saw
                                that I am using the term &quot;power<br>
                                quality&quot; as directly defined by IEC
                                60050 and there is no such term as<br>
                                &quot;power characteristics&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                The definition from IEC60050 is:<br>
                                <a href=3D"http://www.electropedia.org/iev/=
iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0</a><b=
r>
                                5<br>
                                <br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                Power Quality<br>
                                Characteristics of the electric current,
                                voltage and frequencies at a<br>
                                given point in an electric power system,
                                evaluated against a set of<br>
                                reference technical parameters. These
                                parameters might, in some cases,<br>
                                relate to the compatibility between
                                electricity supplied in an electric<br>
                                power system and the loads connected to
                                that electric power system.<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                I&#39;m reluctant to change that to power
                                characteristics as the method of<br>
                                definition is that we take from a source
                                directly at first. I see no<br>
                                source for power characteristics only
                                power quality.<br>
                                <br>
                                Since I can&#39;t find a source for power
                                characteristics, a quick search on<br>
                                how &quot;power characteristics&quot; is us=
ed
                                shows that it refers more times on<br>
                                how a device uses power.<br>
                                <br>
                                So to contrast =C2=A0&quot;power quality&qu=
ot;
                                describes the electrical characteristics<br=
>
                                (voltage and frequency). &quot;Power
                                characteristics&quot; however =C2=A0more co=
mmonly<br>
                                refers to (example) a device using say
                                100W at boot up and the 50W at a<br>
                                steady state over time.<br>
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                So while the minutes state this...<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as
                                Power Characteristics instead of<br>
                                Power<br>
                                Quality to avoid confusion.<br>
                                <br>
                                [BC] - Asks room if Power
                                Characteristics is OK. =C2=A0Notes no
                                objections.<br>
                                <br>
                                Other terms that discussed on the list:<br>
                                - Power State Set<br>
                                - Energy Object Relationship<br>
                                <br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to just continue the
                                discussion on the list.<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                Very easy research shows that =C2=A0&quot;p=
ower
                                quality&quot; and &quot;power<br>
                                characteristics&quot; are two distinct term=
s
                                and not =C2=A0interchangeable.<br>
                                <br>
                                So I&#39;m asking &quot;Are you sure?&quot;=
<br>
                                <br>
                                I proposed to keep &quot;power quality&quot=
; as
                                defined by IEC60050 and if needed<br>
                                I can add &quot;power characteristics&quot;=
 as
                                described above if someone has a<br>
                                reference. I strongly propose not to use
                                them interchangeably.<br>
                                <br>
                                Feedback?<br>
                                Jp<br>
                                <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                eman mailing list<br>
                                <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a=
><br>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br clear=3D"all">
                            <br>
                            -- <br>
                            <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br=
>
                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence
                              Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br>
                            <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" targ=
et=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                            <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_=
blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                            <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867=
089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                            m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105=
017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>__________________________________________=
_____
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                          </blockquote>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
                <br clear=3D"all">
                <br>
                -- <br>
                <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                  National Laboratory</span><br>
                <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank=
">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNord=
man@LBL.gov</a><br>
                <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=
=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" targ=
et=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                <br>
              </span> </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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Hello Hiroto,

Thanks for your response. 

Not sure I understand the motivation of your proposal. 

Let me explain the current draft. 

We have 3 possibilities for the window of energy measurement -  
      eoEnergyParametersIntervalMode  - Period (1), sliding (2) or total (3)

When the total (3) mode is used for energy measurement, 

there is only one interval, which is the duration since the last reset, thus eoEnergyParametersIntervalNumber - is '1' 
and secondly,  eoEnergyParametersIntervalLength is not applicable in this case, since technically, the duration of the window is from the last reset. 

Setting this value '0' - wouldn't that be misleading - ? 


Please let me know. 

Thanks
Mouli



-----Original Message-----
From: hiroto.ogaki@alaxala.com [mailto:hiroto.ogaki@alaxala.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:43 AM
To: Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
Cc: hideo.kodaka@itg.hitachi.co.jp; Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman@ietf.org; Minoru.Teraoka@jp.yokogawa.com
Subject: Re[2]: Minutes(11/16) for Eman-Mib

Hello,

thank your comments.

I agreed it's not necessary to add another index to the parameters table.

But, we have to state the IntervalLength of total clearly in our draft.

#draft Page.47 
---------------
The value of eoEnergyParametersIntervalNumber should be (1) one and eoEnergyParametersIntervalLength is ignored.  


following is my proposal.
--------------------------
The value of eoEnergyParametersIntervalNumber should be (1) one and eoEnergyParametersIntervalLength is zero.  
                                                                                                     ^^^^^^^^

Using the same words in Page.22.

Regards,
Hiroto


>Hello,
>
>As I had mentioned in conversation, it would be useful to understand the use case for the simultaneous measurement of total and period together. 
>
>   EoEnergyParametersEntry ::= SEQUENCE {
>                eoEnergyParametersIntervalLength     TimeInterval,
>                eoEnergyParametersIntervalNumber     Integer32,
>                eoEnergyParametersIntervalMode       Integer32,
>                eoEnergyParametersIntervalWindow     TimeInterval,
>                eoEnergyParametersSampleRate         Integer32,
>                eoEnergyParametersStatus             RowStatus
>        }
>
>
>The parameters table - specifies the parameters for Energy measurement  - length of the interval,  number of intervals, offset for window, sampling rate etc. 
>
>But, for total energy measurement, some of the other parameters need not even be specified; interval length, number of intervals, offset, etc. 
>So, it may not be useful to add another index to the parameters table I think. 
>
>Whereas, based on the parameters,  Energy measurement is reported eoEnergyTable -  eoEnergyIntervalEnergyConsumed, eoEnergyIntervalEnergyProduced. 
>Which reports the energy consumed in that specified interval. 
>
>It may be possible to add a couple of more objects to report the total energy consumed, total energy produced - in addition  to the energy consumed or produced in a given interval. 
>
>Thanks
>Mouli
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: hiroto.ogaki@alaxala.com [mailto:hiroto.ogaki@alaxala.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:53 AM
>To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
>Cc: hiroto.ogaki@alaxala.com; eman@ietf.org; Minoru.Teraoka@jp.yokogawa.com; hideo.kodaka@itg.hitachi.co.jp
>Subject: Re:Minutes(11/16) for Eman-Mib
>
>Hi, all
>
>There is a thing I confrim.
>
>>2.
>>  Discussed the additional index of eoEnergyParametersEntry.
>
>We agreed to using period(1) and total(3) at the same time.
>Therefore, eoEnergyTable has multiple entries that are the same eoPowerIndex
>and different eoEnergyParametersIntervalMode.
>But, now, eoEnergyParametersEntry can't be distinguished between periodical and total.
>
>following is an example.
>
>    eoEnergyParametersIntervalLength.xx = 800 <- periodical or total??
>    eoEnergyParametersIntervalNumber.xx =  20 <- periodical or total??
>    (xx indicates eoPowerIndex)
>
>So, I need to have another index as such.
>
>OLD$B!'(J
>         eoEnergyParametersEntry OBJECT-TYPE
>             SYNTAX          EoEnergyParametersEntry
>             MAX-ACCESS      not-accessible
>             STATUS          current
>             DESCRIPTION
>                "An entry controls an energy measurement in
>                eoEnergyTable."
>             INDEX  { eoPowerIndex }
>
>NEW$B!'(J
>
>         eoEnergyParametersEntry OBJECT-TYPE
>             SYNTAX          EoEnergyParametersEntry
>             MAX-ACCESS      not-accessible
>             STATUS          current
>             DESCRIPTION
>                "An entry controls an energy measurement in
>                eoEnergyTable."
>             INDEX  { eoPowerIndex, eoEnergyParametersIntervalMode }
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Is my understanding correct?
>
>Regards,
>Hiroto
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> Your statement here is incorrect.  If you carefully review the details,
> you will see that the majority of these attributes incorporate a referenc=
e
> point.  For example, total harmonic distortion is a ratio of the distorti=
on
> relative to the reference frequency.  Or consider, power factor which is =
a
> ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where real power is the
> reference point.
>

Below I have extracted the 24 entries in draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
that are labeled "PwrQuality".  The interested reader can count how many of
these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting context.

--Bruce

        powerACPwrQualityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
                             eoACPwrQualityConfiguration,
                             eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage,
                             eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent,
                             eoACPwrQualityFrequency,
                             eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier,
                             eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy,
                             eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
                             eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower,
                             eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower,
                             eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
                             eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres,
                             eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage
        powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
                             eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
                             eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
                             eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower,
                             eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower,
                             eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,
                             eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance
        powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
                            eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage ,
                            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage,
                            eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent
        powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
                            eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage,
                            eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent,
                            eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage

>
> Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power (wasted energy) are
> 'power quality' characteristics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brad
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600
> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Cc: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
> It seems to me that the definition of power quality
> implies a reference point for evaluating quality
> that is absent in the EMAN context - making it
> unsuitable to reference.
> There is actually no need to reference the term
> "power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore
> no need to have a definition for it.
> While it would be best to not use the term at all in
> the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power
> characteristics would likely not mislead people, but
> this would not require a definition.
> The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"
> in many of the entries.  These can simply be changed
> to "Power".
> Problem solved.
> --Bruce
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Brad,
>>
>>   Benoit,
>>
>>  I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning of 'power
>> quality' and put this issue to rest.
>>
>> I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>
>>
>>   Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> =
Redefining
>> Storage Economics****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>  From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
>> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
>> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>>   Dear all,
>>
>> I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem descriptio=
n
>> (if any), as there is some confusion.
>> According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine and
>> the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.
>>
>> Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module
>> contains at the same time:
>> - "power quality" variables
>> - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of
>> reference technical parameters"? Example: current
>> Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the
>> [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>>
>> Please let us know.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>
>>  Hi Bruce,
>>
>>  I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories., 1,
>> 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much ad ho=
c .
>>
>>  In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>
>>
>>    Power Quality
>>
>>
>>
>>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>
>>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>>
>>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>>
>>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>
>>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>
>>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>>
>>        connected to that electric power system.
>>
>>
>>
>>        Reference: [IEC60050<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-ema=
n-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>
>> ]
>>
>>
>>  This seems both adequate and clear.
>>  The EMAN requirements draft states:
>>
>>   Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
>> frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and current, t=
he
>> impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>>
>>
>>  That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>>
>>
>>  The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are
>> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and
>> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality
>> characteristic.
>>
>>
>>           +------------------+--------------------+
>>
>>          |         ACQuality                     |
>>
>>          |---------------------------------------|
>>
>>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>>
>>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>>
>>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>>
>>          | frequency    : long                   |
>>
>>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>>
>>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>>
>>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>>
>>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>>
>>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>>
>>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>>
>>          +---------------------------------------+
>>
>>           +------------------------------------+
>>
>>          |         ACPhase                    |
>>
>>          |------------------------------------|
>>
>>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>>
>>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>>
>>          | activePower : long                 |
>>
>>          | reactivePower : long               |
>>
>>          | apparentPower : long               |
>>
>>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>>
>>          +------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>           +-------------------------------+---+
>>
>>          |        DelPhase                   |
>>
>>          |-----------------------------------|
>>
>>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>>
>>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>>
>>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>>
>>          +-----------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>           +------------------+-----------+
>>
>>          |        WYEPhase              |
>>
>>          |------------------------------|
>>
>>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>>
>>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>>
>>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>>
>>          +------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>
>>  Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting. Can
>> we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>>
>>
>>
>>  e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> =
Redefining
>> Storage Economics****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>>  Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality
>> definition is 2.
>> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, I
>> don't
>> think using it works.
>>
>> The Requirements draft (
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
>> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of powe=
r.
>>
>> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other than
>> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
>> and current.
>>
>> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The
>> requirements
>> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear enoug=
h
>> on their
>> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly
>> specific information.
>>
>> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power quality",
>> and so not
>> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term, along
>> with
>> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>>
>> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that matches
>> how
>> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall
>> phrase to
>> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a "Other"
>> or "Miscellaneous"
>> grouping.
>>
>> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except possibly
>> the Monitoring MIB
>> draft (
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
>> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a
>> problem if Power Quality
>> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it as
>> we use it - all
>> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like
>> 'additional',
>> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>>
>> --Bruce
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>>  Dear all,
>>>
>>> From the meeting minutes (
>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>>
>>> Three categories of power quality:
>>> 1. Nominal power supply
>>> 2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>>> 3. Power usage
>>>
>>> [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Pow=
er
>>> quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considerin=
g
>>> would be considered more generally additional power characteristics tha=
n
>>> power quality.
>>>
>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of P=
ower
>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>
>>>  So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04 covers
>>> correctly "2.", right?
>>> So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>>
>>> At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>> implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>>
>>> My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>>> a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>> usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>> Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>> and independent of any usage context.
>>> For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>> measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>> there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>>
>>> I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>>> suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>>> mean different things.
>>>
>>> --Bruce
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <
>>> jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if there was a
>>>> request to change the term "power quality" to "power characteristics"
>>>>
>>>> I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the term "power
>>>> quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no such term as
>>>> "power characteristics"
>>>>
>>>> The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>>> http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=3D617-=
01-0
>>>> 5
>>>>
>>>> """
>>>> Power Quality
>>>> Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a
>>>> given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a set of
>>>> reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>>> relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in an electri=
c
>>>> power system and the loads connected to that electric power system.
>>>> """
>>>>
>>>> I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the method of
>>>> definition is that we take from a source directly at first. I see no
>>>> source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>>
>>>> Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a quick search =
on
>>>> how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers more times on
>>>> how a device uses power.
>>>>
>>>> So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical characteristi=
cs
>>>> (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however  more commonl=
y
>>>> refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and the 50W at =
a
>>>> steady state over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So while the minutes state this...
>>>> """
>>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of
>>>> Power
>>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>
>>>> [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no objections.
>>>>
>>>> Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>>> - Power State Set
>>>> - Energy Object Relationship
>>>>
>>>> [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>>> """
>>>>
>>>> Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>>> characteristics" are two distinct terms and not  interchangeable.
>>>>
>>>> So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>>
>>>> I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050 and if neede=
d
>>>> I can add "power characteristics" as described above if someone has a
>>>> reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>>>
>>>> Feedback?
>>>> Jp
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> eman mailing list
>>>> eman@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>> 510-486-7089
>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ema=
n
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Bruce Nordman*
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b15aeb374a69004b991b1ee
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad Sc=
hoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@cor=
aid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div><div><div>Hi Bruce,</div><div><br></div><div>Your statement her=
e is incorrect. =C2=A0If you carefully review the details, you will see tha=
t the majority of these attributes incorporate a reference point. =C2=A0For=
 example, total harmonic distortion is a ratio of the distortion relative t=
o the reference frequency. =C2=A0Or consider, power factor which is a ratio=
 of the real power to the apparent power, where real power is the reference=
 point.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Below I have extracted the 24 entri=
es in draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05 <br>that are labeled &quot;PwrQuality=
&quot;.=C2=A0 The interested reader can count how many of<br>these incorpor=
ate a reference point in the EMAN reporting context.<br>
<br>--Bruce<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQua=
lityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityConfig=
uration, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage, <br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent, <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityFrequency, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQ=
ualityPowerUnitMultiplier, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPowerAccu=
racy, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower, <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTot=
alPowerFactor, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres, <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQ=
ualityPhaseActivePower, <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPha=
sePowerFactor,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACP=
wrQualityPhaseImpedance=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br=
>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTabl=
eGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVolta=
ge , <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage, <br>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTabl=
eGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage=
, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent, <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQ=
ualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage <br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-=
size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><d=
iv>
<br></div><div>Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power (wasted ene=
rgy) are &#39;power quality&#39; characteristics.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Brad</div><div class=3D"im"><div><br></di=
v>
<div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoeni=
ng</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a>=
</span></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=
=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
</div><div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-r=
ight:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;bo=
rder-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;pa=
dding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Brad Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<d=
iv>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:=
 [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br></div></div></div><di=
v><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div>It seems to me that the definition of po=
wer quality<br>
implies a reference point for evaluating quality<br>that is absent in the E=
MAN context - making it<br>unsuitable to reference.<br>There is actually no=
 need to reference the term<br>
&quot;power quality&quot; at all in the drafts, and therefore<br>no need to=
 have a definition for it.<br>While it would be best to not use the term at=
 all in<br>the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power <br>charac=
teristics would likely not mislead people, but<br>

this would not require a definition.<br>The monitoring MIB draft does use &=
quot;PwrQuality&quot;<br>in many of the entries.=C2=A0 These can simply be =
changed<br>to &quot;Power&quot;.<br>Problem solved.<br>--Bruce<br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Hi Brad,<div><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div>Benoit,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the
            meaning of &#39;power quality&#39; and put this issue to rest.=
=C2=A0 <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></div>
    I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<div><div><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Sch=
oening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>


                </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@c=
oraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7=
190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span=
></span></p>


              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"=
><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_rea=
llysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></=
span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>


              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span>
        <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;padding-le=
ft:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium =
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;bo=
rder-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012
          10:31:21 -0600<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@c=
oraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt=
;,
          &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@iet=
f.org</a>&quot;
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
         =20
          <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Dear all,<br>
            <br>
            I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the
            problem description (if any), as there is some confusion.<br>
            According to this email thread, the power quality definition
            is fine and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this
            definition.<br>
            <br>
            Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring
            MIB module contains at the same time:<br>
            - &quot;power quality&quot; variables<br>
            - non &quot;power quality&quot; variables, i.e not &quot;evalua=
ted against
            a set of reference technical parameters&quot;? Example: current=
<br>
            Hence the table name should NOT contain &quot;Power Quality&quo=
t; and
            the [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.<br>
            <br>
            Please let us know.<br>
            <br>
            Regards, Benoit.<br>
            <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"></span>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">I don&#39;t understand the context
                    for choosing those three categories., 1, 2 &amp; 3
                    or how they were derived? =C2=A0These categories seem
                    pretty much ad hoc .</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Courier"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x">
                        <p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">I=
n
                          contrast, our EMAN Terminology states,
                          directly quoting IEC 60050:</p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;font-size:1=
2px"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-0=
4" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definiti=
ons-04</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0Power Quality</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Characteristics
                          of the electric current, voltage and</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0frequencies at a
                          given point in an electric power</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0system,
                          evaluated against a set of reference technical</p=
>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0parameters.
                          These parameters might, in some cases,</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0relate to the
                          compatibility between electricity</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0supplied in an
                          electric power system and the loads</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0connected to
                          that electric power system.</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reference: [<a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(22,54,238)">IEC60=
050</span></a>]</p>


                        <p style=3D"font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-ri=
ght:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/no=
rmal Courier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><=
span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><font size=3D"3">This
                              seems both adequate and clear.=C2=A0</font></=
span></p>
                        <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"></span></span><=
/span></div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
                    EMAN requirements draft states:</div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
                    <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padd=
ing:0px">
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">Power quality parameters include
                        the actual=C2=A0voltage, the actual frequency, the
                        Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of=C2=A0voltage and=
                        current, the impedance of an AC phase or of the
                        DC=C2=A0Supply.</p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>That also seems perfectly fine and
                      clear.</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>The framework draft lists the
                      following 22 attributes, but many are redundant
                      due to separate tables for single-phase,
                      delta-phase, and wye-phase. =C2=A0Of these, only
                      current isn&#39;t obviously a power quality
                      characteristic.=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
><br>
                    </p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+------------------+--------------------+ =C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACQuality =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      |---------------------------------------| =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| acConfiguration : enum
                      {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgVoltage =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgCurrent =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | frequency=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | unitMultiplier=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | accuracy=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalActivePower=C2=A0 :
                      long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalReactivePower :
                      long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalApparentPower :
                      long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | totalPowerFactor : long
                      =C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+---------------------------------------+</p>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0+------------------------------------+=C2=A0</p=
>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACPhase=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      |------------------------------------|=C2=A0</p>
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | phaseIndex : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | avgCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | activePower : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | reactivePower : long =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | apparentPower : long =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | powerFactor : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                    <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                      +------------------------------------+=C2=A0</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
<br>


                        </span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span></p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+-------------------------------+---+ =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DelPhase =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|-----------------------------------|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|phaseToNextPhaseVoltage=C2=A0 : long=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+-----------------------------------+</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r"><br>
                      </p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+------------------+-----------+=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WYEPhase=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0|------------------------------|=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|phaseToNeutralVoltage
                        : long=C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                      <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courie=
r">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                        =C2=A0+------------------------------+=C2=A0</p>
                      <span style=3D"font-family:Courier;font-size:12px">=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier">Reviewing this, I can&#39;t
                          understand the issue here from the meeting.
                          Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply
                          close this issue?</p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                        <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0px;font:12.0px Cour=
ier"><br>
                        </p>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@=
coraid.com</a>
                      </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_bla=
nk">917-304-7190</a></span>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
<br>


                        </span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decorati=
on:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+=
Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95=
"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage
                          Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin=
-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>

                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
              </div>
              <span style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>
                <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;pa=
dding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom=
:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-botto=
m:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:
                  </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.=
gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 31
                  Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">em=
an@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
                  [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                Per Benoit&#39;s email below, I agree that the current Powe=
r
                Quality definition is 2.<br>
                Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than
                how we use it, I don&#39;t<br>
                think using it works.<br>
                <br>
                The Requirements draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/d=
raft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/i=
d/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                <br>
                uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful
                attributes of power.<br>
                <br>
                The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to
                everything other than<br>
                Power, Energy, and Demand.=C2=A0 PQ groups 22 values
                beginning with voltage<br>
                and current.<br>
                <br>
                The framework uses the phrase &quot;electrical
                characteristics&quot;.=C2=A0 The requirements<br>
                refers to &quot;qualitative properties&quot;.=C2=A0 These g=
eneric terms
                are clear enough on their<br>
                own to not require definition, and are not trying to
                impart highly specific information.<br>
                <br>
                So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define
                &quot;power quality&quot;, and so not<br>
                use it to have specific meaning.=C2=A0 We can use it as a
                generic term, along with<br>
                &quot;characteristics&quot;, &quot;properties&quot;, &quot;=
measurements&quot;, or
                similar terms.<br>
                <br>
                Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined
                term that matches how<br>
                we use Power Quality.=C2=A0 This is because we are using it=
                as a catchall phrase to<br>
                cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=
=A0
                It is a &quot;Other&quot; or &quot;Miscellaneous&quot;<br>
                grouping.<br>
                <br>
                This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts
                except possibly the Monitoring MIB<br>
                draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-en=
ergy-monitoring-mib-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-=
ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>
                It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various
                values.=C2=A0 Is it a problem if Power Quality<br>
                is not defined?=C2=A0 If we need a term, then it is simples=
t
                to define it as we use it - all<br>
                characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0=
                Some term like &#39;additional&#39;,<br>
                &#39;extra&#39;, &#39;optional&#39;, &#39;detailed&#39;, or=
 such would be clear.<br>
                <br>
                --Bruce<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                  AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Dear all,<br=
>
                      <br>
                      From the meeting minutes (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=
proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                      <blockquote>
                        <pre>Three categories of power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power=
=20
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering=20
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than=20
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power=
=20
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                      </blockquote>
                      So the current definition of &quot;Power Quality&quot=
; in <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-0=
4" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definiti=
ons-04</a>
                      covers correctly &quot;2.&quot;, right?<br>
                      So, is Power Characteristics &quot;1.&quot;, &quot;2.=
&quot;, and &quot;3.&quot;?<br>
                      <br>
                      At the end, I&#39;m not sure which problem we try to
                      solve...<br>
                      <br>
                      Regards, Benoit.
                      <div>
                        <div><br>
                          <br>
                          <blockquote type=3D"cite">I am mindful that
                            whatever we decide, it doesn&#39;t change the<b=
r>
                            implementation of EMAN, but you make some
                            good points.<br>
                            <br>
                            My reading of the Power Quality definition
                            below is that it is<br>
                            a judgment of suitability of some power with
                            respect to its<br>
                            usage context, so is a value judgment.<br>
                            Power Characteristics was intended to not be
                            judgmental,<br>
                            and independent of any usage context.<br>
                            For something like voltage, EMAN is just
                            reporting what it<br>
                            measures.=C2=A0 From what we know from an EMAN
                            perspective,<br>
                            there is no knowledge of what values are
                            preferred to others.<br>
                            <br>
                            I don&#39;t have my IEEE Dictionary handy to se=
e
                            if there is anything<br>
                            suitable there.=C2=A0 I do agree that Quality a=
nd
                            Characteristics do<br>
                            mean different things.<br>
                            <br>
                            --Bruce<br>
                            <br>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 24,
                              2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jparello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
parello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi,<br>
                                <br>
                                I&#39;m looking at the minutes from IETF-82
                                and it looks as if there was a<br>
                                request to change the term &quot;power
                                quality&quot; to &quot;power characteristic=
s&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                I was about to make the change but saw
                                that I am using the term &quot;power<br>
                                quality&quot; as directly defined by IEC
                                60050 and there is no such term as<br>
                                &quot;power characteristics&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                The definition from IEC60050 is:<br>
                                <a href=3D"http://www.electropedia.org/iev/=
iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0</a><b=
r>
                                5<br>
                                <br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                Power Quality<br>
                                Characteristics of the electric current,
                                voltage and frequencies at a<br>
                                given point in an electric power system,
                                evaluated against a set of<br>
                                reference technical parameters. These
                                parameters might, in some cases,<br>
                                relate to the compatibility between
                                electricity supplied in an electric<br>
                                power system and the loads connected to
                                that electric power system.<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                I&#39;m reluctant to change that to power
                                characteristics as the method of<br>
                                definition is that we take from a source
                                directly at first. I see no<br>
                                source for power characteristics only
                                power quality.<br>
                                <br>
                                Since I can&#39;t find a source for power
                                characteristics, a quick search on<br>
                                how &quot;power characteristics&quot; is us=
ed
                                shows that it refers more times on<br>
                                how a device uses power.<br>
                                <br>
                                So to contrast =C2=A0&quot;power quality&qu=
ot;
                                describes the electrical characteristics<br=
>
                                (voltage and frequency). &quot;Power
                                characteristics&quot; however =C2=A0more co=
mmonly<br>
                                refers to (example) a device using say
                                100W at boot up and the 50W at a<br>
                                steady state over time.<br>
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                So while the minutes state this...<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as
                                Power Characteristics instead of<br>
                                Power<br>
                                Quality to avoid confusion.<br>
                                <br>
                                [BC] - Asks room if Power
                                Characteristics is OK. =C2=A0Notes no
                                objections.<br>
                                <br>
                                Other terms that discussed on the list:<br>=
                                - Power State Set<br>
                                - Energy Object Relationship<br>
                                <br>
                                [BN] - Proposed to just continue the
                                discussion on the list.<br>
                                &quot;&quot;&quot;<br>
                                <br>
                                Very easy research shows that =C2=A0&quot;p=
ower
                                quality&quot; and &quot;power<br>
                                characteristics&quot; are two distinct term=
s
                                and not =C2=A0interchangeable.<br>
                                <br>
                                So I&#39;m asking &quot;Are you sure?&quot;=
<br>
                                <br>
                                I proposed to keep &quot;power quality&quot=
; as
                                defined by IEC60050 and if needed<br>
                                I can add &quot;power characteristics&quot;=
 as
                                described above if someone has a<br>
                                reference. I strongly propose not to use
                                them interchangeably.<br>
                                <br>
                                Feedback?<br>
                                Jp<br>
                                <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                eman mailing list<br>
                                <a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a=
><br>                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br clear=3D"all">
                            <br>
                            -- <br>
                            <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br=
>
                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence
                              Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br>
                            <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" targ=
et=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                            <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_=
blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                            <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867=
089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                            m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105=
017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>__________________________________________=
_____
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                          </blockquote>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
                <br clear=3D"all">
                <br>
                -- <br>
                <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                  National Laboratory</span><br>
                <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank=
">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNord=
man@LBL.gov</a><br>
                <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=
=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" targ=
et=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                <br>
              </span> </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><fo=
nt size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,1=
53)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd=
.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>

<a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><=
br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">51=
0-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
<br></div></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--047d7b15aeb374a69004b991b1ee--

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From: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
To: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:49:33 -0600
Thread-Topic: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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From fletchj@us.ibm.com  Wed Feb 22 12:45:03 2012
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Subject: [eman] AUTO: Jim Fletcher is out of the office with minimal email or phone access - returning Thursday March 1 (returning 03/01/2012)
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I am out of the office until 03/01/2012.

For technical needs contact anyone on my team
For calendar needs, contact my Veronica Rodwell


Note: This is an automated response to your message  "eman Digest, Vol 19,
Issue 30" sent on 02/22/2012 11:28:33.

This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away.


From bnordman@lbl.gov  Thu Feb 23 23:07:26 2012
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
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Subject: [eman] Framework issues (repost)
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I have a number of concerns about the Framework draft.
I posted the comments below in November before our last
meeting. I believe all are still relevant to am reposting.
The original is:
  http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html

Thanks,

-Bruce




Comments on Framework -03

Bruce Nordman, November 6, 2011



The framework document (FWK) continues to make progress.  The work of the
authors is much appreciated.



The FWK addresses the following major types of content:

-Relationships among devices, including power topology and proxying for
non-IP and non-EMAN devices

-Power/energy measurement details

-Power state semantics

-Context information



The FWK does not address some issues important to eman:

-Details of power supply topology

-Treatment of components

-Aggregation of information-unified views of objects, both monitoring and
control



The FWK draft could have the Reference Model (REF) -03 usefully merged into
it to fill in many of the gaps.



There are also substantive issues raised below.



For REF, it provides explicit and detailed modeling of the power
relationships among devices so that there is no ambiguity.  In addition, it
enables reporting of relationships that are complex and/or not fully known,
so that an energy management system can be certain of the meaning of
reported data or the effect of control commands.  It does this in a way
which is simple to understand and implement.  The parent-child relationship
in FWK is apparent to the EMS in the data it has, and may be apparent to
individual devices, including parents and children.  The REF draft does not
conflict with the FWK but rather fills out details for the FWK.



REF also clarifies that components share many characteristics of devices
regarding energy reporting and control, but that devices have some
characteristics that components do not.  FWK focuses almost entirely on
devices rather than components (except to the extent that batteries are
mentioned), and the REF and FWK concepts of a device are consistent.  For
example, presumably components inside a device do not have power
relationships with other devices.



One fundamental point in FWK is that it states that parent/child
communication cannot be via the EMAN protocol.  It is certainly the case
that it is not required to be, and in many cases may be to non-IP devices,
but often one device will speak EMAN to a device =93upstream=94 that is not=
 the
management system, and so utilize that mechanism for reporting and control.
This assumes that =93parent=94 concept applies to any relationship between =
two
devices in which power supply, monitoring, metering, or control are
involved.  Another possibility is that parent/child is only intended to be
applied to relationships that proxy to other (possibly non-IP) protocols.  =
This
is fine but it should then be made clear that many devices will have
energy/power relationships but do not fall into the parent-child
nomenclature.



The rest of this discussion is in order of appearance in the document.



Open issues:

-1: Yes=97add these scenarios by merging in content from REF

-2: No (no variable states); No (not a requirement); batteries a component.

-3: Power levels are a different concept from a power state.  If a =91power
cap=92 requirement is introduced, this could be accommodated, but should no=
t
be conflated with power state reporting or control.



1. Introduction

-First two paragraphs are generic content that should be moved to a
different draft.



2. Requirements and Use Cases

-This should be trimmed down considerably.



4. Energy Management Reference Model

-The third paragraph should emphasize that the data model is the important
part of EMAN and that SNMP (and IPFIX) are simply the most obvious and
immediately convenient ways to communicate that data.

-Figure 2 =96 as above, communication between parent and child may be
accomplished via EMAN among other possibilities, some not involving IP.

-=93PC with line cards=94 - ??? wouldn=92t router or switch be a better exa=
mple
for line cards?



5. Framework High Level Concepts and Scope

-Delete the 19 lines beginning with the =93Procurement=94 one. Not needed a=
nd
not helpful.



5.1 Domain

-Recast this as that a domain is a portion of an electricity distribution
system that is separately metered or carries some other important
distinguishing characteristic.  No need to mention =93utility=94 or a utili=
ty
meter.

-Note that a child may be in a different electricity domain from a parent.

-Also note that a device may draw power from multiple domains
simultaneously, so that the domain concept really applies to a power
interface, not to an entire device.



5.2.1 Identification

-I am all for use of UUIDs, but I don=92t remember that they were made
mandatory.

-=93unique printable name=94.  Unique globally? or within some context?  Al=
so,
add more elaboration on this topic.



5.2.1 Context

-This should be a separate section from Identification, i.e. a new 5.3.



5.2.3 Importance

-Is this tied to a requirement or use case?



5.3 Relationships

-What does =93keep track of=94 actually mean in this case?



5.4 Energy Monitoring

-No need to mention non-electrical energy.

-Fine to use odometer in the explanation as an illustrative example, but
these are electricity meters, NOT odometers, which measure distance
traveled.

-The =93used, produced, net=94 list is too much for some applications and t=
oo
little for others.  The REF provides a way to make clear what meters in a
device mean.



5.4.1 Power Measurement

-It is not necessary for EMAN to have a concept of a meter separate from a
regular eman device which does metering.

-Later in paragraph 2, reference is made to =93intent=94 of measurement; ac=
tual
topology can instead be used to clarify how measurements should correspond.

-I don=92t think it necessary to distinguish between actual or estimated
measurements; instead, accuracy is all we need as an actual measurement
could be quite inaccurate (or accurate), and an estimate could be quite
accurate (or not).



5.4.2 Power Quality

-The Demand discussion should be in a separate section

-For batteries, only need a single sentence to point to the battery draft.



5.5.1 IEEE 1621 Power State Series

-I have no idea where these definitions came from =96 not from the IEEE
standard.  That can be found at eetd.lbl.gov/controls/1621



5.5.2 DMTF Power State Series

-The presentation should be limited to the DMTF set so the Figure should be
adjusted to do that (though referencing ACPI does seem OK).



5.5.3 EMAN Power State Series

-I don=92t accept that this series should have the EMAN name.

-=93non-operational=94 states do not necessarily have a lower power level t=
han
on states in circumstances such as battery charging =96 making this stateme=
nt
is simply not needed.

-This series combines two separate concepts =96 a power state, and an
activity or utilization level.  It seems fine to have EMAN able to report
level of activity of a device at the current time, but forcing these
together is arbitrary and unnecessary.  I would support a variable of
activity/utilization level =96 0-100 seems like a good choice but others ma=
y
have a better suggestion.  Devices could support activity level as
read-only, or as read/write, to enable control.



7. Configuration

-I assume it is the management system that is doing the configuring.  This
seems out of scope for this document, but I do think it would be useful
content for somewhere.  I have thought that an =93Implementation Advice=94
non-normative draft would be a helpful addition to our collection.

-The middle paragraph in this section duplicates content from elsewhere in
the draft.

-The last paragraph seems out of place here.



9. Relationships to other Standards

-Seems like this entire section can be removed as duplicative.


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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I have a number of concerns about the Framework draft.<br>I posted the comm=
ents below in November before our last<br>meeting. I believe all are still =
relevant to am reposting.<br>The original is:<br>=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.=
ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html">http://www.ietf.org/m=
ail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html</a><br>
<br>Thanks,<br><br>-Bruce<br><br><br><br><br><p style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font>Comments on Framework -03</=
font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>Bruce Nordman, November 6, 2011</font></p><font><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>The framework document (FWK) continues to make
progress.<span>=A0 </span>The work of the authors
is much appreciated.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>The FWK addresses the following major types of content:</f=
ont></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Relationships among devices, including power topology and
proxying for non-IP and non-EMAN devices</font></p><font><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Power/energy measurement details</font></p><font><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Power state semantics</font></p><font><span style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Context information</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>The FWK does not address some issues important to eman:</f=
ont></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Details of power supply topology</font></p><font><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Treatment of components</font></p><font><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Aggregation of information-unified views of objects, both
monitoring and control</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>The FWK draft could have the Reference Model (REF) -03
usefully merged into it to fill in many of the gaps.</font></p><font><span =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>There are also substantive issues raised below.<span>=A0 <=
/span></font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>For REF, it provides explicit and detailed modeling of the
power relationships among devices so that there is no ambiguity.<span>=A0 <=
/span>In addition, it enables reporting of
relationships that are complex and/or not fully known, so that an energy
management system can be certain of the meaning of reported data or the eff=
ect
of control commands.<span>=A0 </span>It does this
in a way which is simple to understand and implement.<span>=A0 </span>The p=
arent-child relationship in FWK is apparent to the EMS
in the data it has, and may be apparent to individual devices, including
parents and children.<span>=A0 </span>The REF
draft does not conflict with the FWK but rather fills out details for the F=
WK.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>REF also clarifies that components share many
characteristics of devices regarding energy reporting and control, but that
devices have some characteristics that components do not.<span>=A0 </span>F=
WK focuses almost entirely on devices
rather than components (except to the extent that batteries are mentioned),=
 and
the REF and FWK concepts of a device are consistent.<span>=A0 </span>For ex=
ample, presumably components inside a device do not
have power relationships with other devices.</font></p><font><span style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>One fundamental point in FWK is that it states that
parent/child communication cannot be via the EMAN protocol.<span>=A0 </span=
>It is certainly the case that it is not
required to be, and in many cases may be to non-IP devices, but often one
device will speak EMAN to a device =93upstream=94 that is not the managemen=
t
system, and so utilize that mechanism for reporting and control.<span>=A0 <=
/span>This assumes that =93parent=94 concept
applies to any relationship between two devices in which power supply,
monitoring, metering, or control are involved.<span>=A0 </span>Another poss=
ibility is that parent/child is only intended to
be applied to relationships that proxy to other (possibly non-IP) protocols=
.<span>=A0 </span>This is fine but it should then be made
clear that many devices will have energy/power relationships but do not fal=
l
into the parent-child nomenclature.<span>=A0
</span></font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>The rest of this discussion is in order of appearance in t=
he
document.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>Open issues:</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-1: Yes=97add these scenarios by merging in content from R=
EF</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-2: No (no variable states); No (not a requirement); batte=
ries
a component.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-3: Power levels are a different concept from a power
state.<span>=A0 </span>If a =91power cap=92
requirement is introduced, this could be accommodated, but should not be
conflated with power state reporting or control.</font></p><font><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>1. Introduction</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-First two paragraphs are generic content that should be
moved to a different draft.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>2. Requirements and Use Cases</font></p><font><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-This should be trimmed down considerably.</font></p><font=
><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>4. Energy Management Reference Model</font></p><font><span=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The third paragraph should emphasize that the data model =
is
the important part of EMAN and that SNMP (and IPFIX) are simply the most
obvious and immediately convenient ways to communicate that data.</font></p=
><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Figure 2 =96 as above, communication between parent and c=
hild
may be accomplished via EMAN among other possibilities, some not involving =
IP.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-=93PC with line cards=94 - ??? wouldn=92t router or switc=
h be a
better example for line cards?</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5. Framework High Level Concepts and Scope</font></p><font=
><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Delete the 19 lines beginning with the =93Procurement=94 =
one.
Not needed and not helpful.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.1 Domain</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Recast this as that a domain is a portion of an electrici=
ty
distribution system that is separately metered or carries some other import=
ant
distinguishing characteristic.<span>=A0 </span>No
need to mention =93utility=94 or a utility meter.<span>=A0 </span></font></=
p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Note that a child may be in a different electricity domai=
n
from a parent.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Also note that a device may draw power from multiple
domains simultaneously, so that the domain concept really applies to a powe=
r interface,
not to an entire device.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.2.1 Identification</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-I am all for use of UUIDs, but I don=92t remember that th=
ey
were made mandatory.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-=93unique printable name=94.<span>=A0 </span>Unique globa=
lly? or within some context?<span>=A0 </span>Also, add more elaboration on =
this
topic.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.2.1 Context</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-This should be a separate section from Identification, i.=
e.
a new 5.3.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.2.3 Importance</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Is this tied to a requirement or use case?</font></p><fon=
t><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.3 Relationships</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-What does =93keep track of=94 actually mean in this case?=
</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.4 Energy Monitoring</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-No need to mention non-electrical energy.</font></p><font=
><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Fine to use odometer in the explanation as an illustrativ=
e
example, but these are electricity meters, NOT odometers, which measure
distance traveled.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The =93used, produced, net=94 list is too much for some
applications and too little for others.<span>=A0
</span>The REF provides a way to make clear what meters in a device mean.</=
font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.4.1 Power Measurement</font></p><font><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-It is not necessary for EMAN to have a concept of a meter
separate from a regular eman device which does metering.</font></p><font><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Later in paragraph 2, reference is made to =93intent=94 o=
f
measurement; actual topology can instead be used to clarify how measurement=
s
should correspond.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-I don=92t think it necessary to distinguish between actua=
l or
estimated measurements; instead, accuracy is all we need as an actual
measurement could be quite inaccurate (or accurate), and an estimate could =
be
quite accurate (or not).</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font><span>=A0 </span></font></p><font><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.4.2 Power Quality</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The Demand discussion should be in a separate section</fo=
nt></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-For batteries, only need a single sentence to point to th=
e
battery draft.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.5.1 IEEE 1621 Power State Series</font></p><font><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-I have no idea where these definitions came from =96 not =
from
the IEEE standard.<span>=A0 </span>That can be
found at <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/controls/1621">eet=
d.lbl.gov/controls/1621</a></font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.5.2 DMTF Power State Series</font></p><font><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The presentation should be limited to the DMTF set so the
Figure should be adjusted to do that (though referencing ACPI does seem OK)=
.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>5.5.3 EMAN Power State Series</font></p><font><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-I don=92t accept that this series should have the EMAN
name.<span>=A0 </span></font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-=93non-operational=94 states do not necessarily have a lo=
wer
power level than on states in circumstances such as battery charging =96 ma=
king
this statement is simply not needed.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-This series combines two separate concepts =96 a power st=
ate,
and an activity or utilization level.<span>=A0
</span>It seems fine to have EMAN able to report level of activity of a dev=
ice
at the current time, but forcing these together is arbitrary and
unnecessary.<span>=A0 </span>I would support a
variable of activity/utilization level =96 0-100 seems like a good choice b=
ut
others may have a better suggestion.<span>=A0
</span>Devices could support activity level as read-only, or as read/write,=
 to
enable control.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>7. Configuration</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-I assume it is the management system that is doing the
configuring.<span>=A0 </span>This seems out of
scope for this document, but I do think it would be useful content for
somewhere.<span>=A0 </span>I have thought that an =93Implementation
Advice=94 non-normative draft would be a helpful addition to our collection=
.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The middle paragraph in this section duplicates content
from elsewhere in the draft.</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-The last paragraph seems out of place here.</font></p><fo=
nt><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>=A0</font></p><font><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>9. Relationships to other Standards</font></p><font><span =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">

</span></font><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font>-Seems like this entire section can be removed as duplicat=
ive.</font></p><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordm=
an</b></font><br>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</s=
pan><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.l=
bl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-794=
3<br>
<br>

--047d7b33901982510704b9b06940--

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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Dear all,

In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of a 
single Energy Management Domain"

Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
"I don't think that this is a valid assumption. How do we address the 
case of an energy object which has redundant and diverse power sources 
for reliability, or an energy object which has access to alternative 
power sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to 
optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not examples of 
different metering domains?"

The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example


    Energy Management Domain

An Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all objects 
in the domain are considered one unit of management.

For example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy 
Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.

For example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel 
with the same AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building 
for which there is one main meter, would comprise an Energy Management 
Domain.

NOTES:

1. Typically, this set will have as members all EO's that are powered 
from the same source.


Is this enough?

Please let us know.

Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])

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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
    a single Energy Management Domain"<br>
    <br>
    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:<br>
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    Is this enough?<br>
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    Please let us know.<br>
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    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])<br>
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--------------010307070905020703030406--

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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:27:50 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship
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Dear all,

Here is what the current terminology draft contains:


    Dependency Relationship

An Energy Object may be a component of or rely completely upon another 
Energy Object to operate and is referred to as a Dependency Relationship.

Example: A Switch chassis with multiple line cards.


The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency relationship".

Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the 
ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship" 
(typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as 
expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this 
relationship type.

Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)

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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Here is what the current terminology draft contains:<br>
    <br>
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    The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency
    relationship".<br>
    <br>
    Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the
    ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship"
    (typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as
    expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this
    relationship type.<br>
    <br>
    Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------050806030703010302070407--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Feb 24 06:46:49 2012
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:46:45 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of Energy Objects with the "keywords"
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Dear all,

Regarding the following section in the [EMAN-FMWK]

    Another keyword use case is the virtual grouping of Energy Objects.
    For example, a Power Distribution Unit (PDU) that allows physical
    entities like outlets to be "ganged" together as a logical entity
    for simplified management purposes.This is particularly useful for
    servers with multiple power supplies, where each power supply is
    connected to a different physical outlet.Other implementations allow
    "gangs" to be created based on common ownership of outlets, such as
    business units or load shed priority or other non-physical
    relationships.For example, current PDU implementations allow for an
    "M-to-N" mapping between outlet "gangs" and physical outlets:

    Outlet 1(physical entity)

    Outlet 2(physical entity)

    Outlet 3(physical entity)

    Outlet 4(physical entity)

    Outlet Gang A(virtual entity)

    Outlet Gang B(virtual entity)

    Gang A -> Outlets 1, 2 and 3

    Gang B -> Outlets 3 and 4

    Note the allowed overlap on Outlet 3, where Outlet 3 belongs to both
    "gangs".The keywords concept for this specific example would be used
    as such:

    Outlet 1Energy Object 1, keywords: gangA

    Outlet 2Energy Object 2, keywords: gangA

    Outlet 3Energy Object 3, keywords: gangA, gangB

    Outlet 4Energy Object 4, keywords: gangB

    Each "Outlet Gang" virtual entity, aggregated based on the value of
    the keywords, reports the aggregated data from the individual outlet
    entities that comprise it.The same concept enables a single point of
    control for all the individual outlet entities.For example, turning
    "Outlet Gang A" to the "off" state would turn outlets 1, 2, and 3
    "off" in some implementations.Note that the impact of this action on
    "Outlet Gang B" is out of scope of this document.


Bill Mielke had the following concern:
"Are we overloading the use of keywords here?If the field is used for 
this purpose does that preclude it's use for its original purpose?Are 
these uses actually in conflict?"

Basically, I agree with Bill.
As it was mentioned on the mailing list some time ago, this gang 
semantic is not clear when we use the keywords.
Also, the requirement for outlet gang doesn't show up in [EMAN-REQ].
So I propose to remove this text, explaining how to use the keywords for 
gang relationship.

If a "gang relationship" is required, this framework allows this future 
extension.
Indeed, as each Energy Object has an UUID,  a new gang relationship can 
be used, one defined, between list of UUIDs.

Please let me know if you have a different view, otherwise, consider 
this text removed.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)



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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the following section in the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
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      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:22.5pt"><a
          style="mso-comment-reference:
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          keyword use case is the
          virtual grouping of Energy Objects. <span
            style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></a><span
          class="MsoCommentReference"><span
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              style="mso-special-character:
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        Distribution Unit
        (PDU) that allows physical entities like outlets to be "ganged"
        together as a logical entity for simplified management purposes.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>This is particularly useful
        for servers with
        multiple power supplies, where each power supply is connected to
        a different
        physical outlet.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Other
        implementations
        allow "gangs" to be created based on common ownership of
        outlets,
        such as business units or load shed priority or other
        non-physical
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        example, current PDU
        implementations allow for an "M-to-N" mapping between outlet
        "gangs" and physical outlets:</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet 1<span
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>(physical
        entity)</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>(physical
        entity)</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet 4<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>(physical entity)</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet Gang A<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>(virtual entity)</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet Gang B<span
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        Outlet 3, where Outlet 3 belongs to both "gangs".<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The keywords concept for
        this specific
        example would be used as such:</p>
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet 1<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Energy Object 1,
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet 2<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Energy Object 2,
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Outlet 3<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Energy Object 3,
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Energy Object 4,
        keywords: gangB</p>
      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 22.5pt;">Each "Outlet
        Gang"
        virtual entity, aggregated based on the value of the keywords,
        reports the
        aggregated data from the individual outlet entities that
        comprise it.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The same
        concept enables a single point of
        control for all the individual outlet entities.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;
        </span>For example, turning "Outlet Gang A" to the "off"
        state would turn outlets 1, 2, and 3 "off" in some
        implementations.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Note
        that the impact of this action on
        "Outlet Gang B" is out of scope of this document.<br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 22.5pt;"><br>
    </p>
    Bill Mielke had the following concern:<br>
    &#8220;Are we overloading the use of keywords here?<span
      style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>If the field is used for this
    purpose does
    that preclude it's use for its original purpose?<span
      style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Are these uses actually in
    conflict?&#8221;<br>
    <br>
    Basically, I agree with Bill.<br>
    As it was mentioned on the mailing list some time ago, this gang
    semantic is not clear when we use the keywords.<br>
    Also, the requirement for outlet gang doesn't show up in [EMAN-REQ].<br>
    So I propose to remove this text, explaining how to use the keywords
    for gang relationship.<br>
    <br>
    If a "gang relationship" is required, this framework allows this
    future extension.<br>
    Indeed, as each Energy Object has an UUID,&nbsp; a new gang relationship
    can be used, one defined, between list of UUIDs.<br>
    <br>
    Please let me know if you have a different view, otherwise, consider
    this text removed.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)<br>
    <br>
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From: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:16:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Hi all,

I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue
on devices with redundant and diverse power sources.

Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects)
may lead to problems if the energy object has multiple
power inlets from different domains.

Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members,
we should rather have memberships for the power interfaces
of the energy objects.

Then a single energy object can have different power
Interfaces (in Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member
of different domains. And our energy management model would
exactly match the real world scenario that Bill pointed us to.

And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of
an energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state
that the entire energy object is in that domain.

Thanks,
    Juergen

On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> =20
> =20
>    Dear all,
>   =20
>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>   =20
>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>   =20
>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
>      assumption.
>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
>      and diverse
>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>      access to
>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>      between them
>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>      examples of
>      different metering domains?=B2
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>   =20
>   =20
>    Energy
>      Management Domain
>    An
>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>    =20
>    For
>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>    =20
>    For
>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>      with the same
>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
>      there is one
>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>    =20
>    NOTES:
>   =20
>    1.
>      Typically,
>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>      same source.
>    =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>    Is this enough?
>   =20
>    Please let us know.
>   =20
>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
> =20
>
>_______________________________________________
>eman mailing list
>eman@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman


From jparello@cisco.com  Fri Feb 24 10:00:46 2012
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Juergen Quittek" <Quittek@neclab.eu>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the =
EMAN specification to keep things simple.
I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can =
always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes =
prevalent.

While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant =
power sources and each power source in a different management domain =
it's just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy =
management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.

To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch =
with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different =
community. =20

Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and =
the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain. =
Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will =
roll up or combine the information anyway.

So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put =
this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity. =
The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children =
are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.  =
Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since =
this data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.

Jp

PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.

-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Juergen Quittek
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single =
Energy Management Domain

Hi all,

I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices =
with redundant and diverse power sources.

Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems =
if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.

Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should =
rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.

Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in =
Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And =
our energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario =
that Bill pointed us to.

And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an =
energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the =
entire energy object is in that domain.

Thanks,
    Juergen

On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> =20
> =20
>    Dear all,
>   =20
>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part =
of
>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>   =20
>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>   =20
>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
>      assumption.
>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has =
redundant
>      and diverse
>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>      access to
>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>      between them
>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>      examples of
>      different metering domains?=B2
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>   =20
>   =20
>    Energy
>      Management Domain
>    An
>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>    =20
>    For
>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>    =20
>    For
>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>      with the same
>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for =
which
>      there is one
>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>    =20
>    NOTES:
>   =20
>    1.
>      Typically,
>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>      same source.
>    =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
>    Is this enough?
>   =20
>    Please let us know.
>   =20
>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
> =20
>
>_______________________________________________
>eman mailing list
>eman@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Bruce Nordman" <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] Framework issues (repost)
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Hi Bruce,

=20

Regarding your comment - in fact, components are modeled well in
Framework; using Entity MIB containment.=20

=20

Yes, Power supply Topology is not considered in Framework  - is there a
use case from an EMAN perspective for the discovering the  power supply
topology.=20

=20

I think it would be helpful if the review is not be based on the premise
that the reference model should integrated with the Framework.=20

=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Bruce Nordman
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 12:37 PM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] Framework issues (repost)

=20

I have a number of concerns about the Framework draft.
I posted the comments below in November before our last
meeting. I believe all are still relevant to am reposting.
The original is:
  http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html

Thanks,

-Bruce





Comments on Framework -03

Bruce Nordman, November 6, 2011

=20

The framework document (FWK) continues to make progress.  The work of
the authors is much appreciated.

=20

The FWK addresses the following major types of content:

-Relationships among devices, including power topology and proxying for
non-IP and non-EMAN devices

-Power/energy measurement details

-Power state semantics

-Context information

=20

The FWK does not address some issues important to eman:

-Details of power supply topology

-Treatment of components

-Aggregation of information-unified views of objects, both monitoring
and control

=20

The FWK draft could have the Reference Model (REF) -03 usefully merged
into it to fill in many of the gaps.

=20

There are also substantive issues raised below. =20

=20

For REF, it provides explicit and detailed modeling of the power
relationships among devices so that there is no ambiguity.  In addition,
it enables reporting of relationships that are complex and/or not fully
known, so that an energy management system can be certain of the meaning
of reported data or the effect of control commands.  It does this in a
way which is simple to understand and implement.  The parent-child
relationship in FWK is apparent to the EMS in the data it has, and may
be apparent to individual devices, including parents and children.  The
REF draft does not conflict with the FWK but rather fills out details
for the FWK.

=20

REF also clarifies that components share many characteristics of devices
regarding energy reporting and control, but that devices have some
characteristics that components do not.  FWK focuses almost entirely on
devices rather than components (except to the extent that batteries are
mentioned), and the REF and FWK concepts of a device are consistent.
For example, presumably components inside a device do not have power
relationships with other devices.

=20

One fundamental point in FWK is that it states that parent/child
communication cannot be via the EMAN protocol.  It is certainly the case
that it is not required to be, and in many cases may be to non-IP
devices, but often one device will speak EMAN to a device "upstream"
that is not the management system, and so utilize that mechanism for
reporting and control.  This assumes that "parent" concept applies to
any relationship between two devices in which power supply, monitoring,
metering, or control are involved.  Another possibility is that
parent/child is only intended to be applied to relationships that proxy
to other (possibly non-IP) protocols.  This is fine but it should then
be made clear that many devices will have energy/power relationships but
do not fall into the parent-child nomenclature. =20

=20

The rest of this discussion is in order of appearance in the document.

=20

Open issues:

-1: Yes-add these scenarios by merging in content from REF

-2: No (no variable states); No (not a requirement); batteries a
component.

-3: Power levels are a different concept from a power state.  If a
'power cap' requirement is introduced, this could be accommodated, but
should not be conflated with power state reporting or control.

=20

1. Introduction

-First two paragraphs are generic content that should be moved to a
different draft.

=20

2. Requirements and Use Cases

-This should be trimmed down considerably.

=20

4. Energy Management Reference Model

-The third paragraph should emphasize that the data model is the
important part of EMAN and that SNMP (and IPFIX) are simply the most
obvious and immediately convenient ways to communicate that data.

-Figure 2 - as above, communication between parent and child may be
accomplished via EMAN among other possibilities, some not involving IP.

-"PC with line cards" - ??? wouldn't router or switch be a better
example for line cards?

=20

5. Framework High Level Concepts and Scope

-Delete the 19 lines beginning with the "Procurement" one. Not needed
and not helpful.

=20

5.1 Domain

-Recast this as that a domain is a portion of an electricity
distribution system that is separately metered or carries some other
important distinguishing characteristic.  No need to mention "utility"
or a utility meter. =20

-Note that a child may be in a different electricity domain from a
parent.

-Also note that a device may draw power from multiple domains
simultaneously, so that the domain concept really applies to a power
interface, not to an entire device.

=20

5.2.1 Identification

-I am all for use of UUIDs, but I don't remember that they were made
mandatory.

-"unique printable name".  Unique globally? or within some context?
Also, add more elaboration on this topic.

=20

5.2.1 Context

-This should be a separate section from Identification, i.e. a new 5.3.

=20

5.2.3 Importance

-Is this tied to a requirement or use case?

=20

5.3 Relationships

-What does "keep track of" actually mean in this case?

=20

5.4 Energy Monitoring

-No need to mention non-electrical energy.

-Fine to use odometer in the explanation as an illustrative example, but
these are electricity meters, NOT odometers, which measure distance
traveled.

-The "used, produced, net" list is too much for some applications and
too little for others.  The REF provides a way to make clear what meters
in a device mean.

=20

5.4.1 Power Measurement

-It is not necessary for EMAN to have a concept of a meter separate from
a regular eman device which does metering.

-Later in paragraph 2, reference is made to "intent" of measurement;
actual topology can instead be used to clarify how measurements should
correspond.

-I don't think it necessary to distinguish between actual or estimated
measurements; instead, accuracy is all we need as an actual measurement
could be quite inaccurate (or accurate), and an estimate could be quite
accurate (or not).

 =20

5.4.2 Power Quality

-The Demand discussion should be in a separate section

-For batteries, only need a single sentence to point to the battery
draft.

=20

5.5.1 IEEE 1621 Power State Series

-I have no idea where these definitions came from - not from the IEEE
standard.  That can be found at eetd.lbl.gov/controls/1621

=20

5.5.2 DMTF Power State Series

-The presentation should be limited to the DMTF set so the Figure should
be adjusted to do that (though referencing ACPI does seem OK).

=20

5.5.3 EMAN Power State Series

-I don't accept that this series should have the EMAN name. =20

-"non-operational" states do not necessarily have a lower power level
than on states in circumstances such as battery charging - making this
statement is simply not needed.

-This series combines two separate concepts - a power state, and an
activity or utilization level.  It seems fine to have EMAN able to
report level of activity of a device at the current time, but forcing
these together is arbitrary and unnecessary.  I would support a variable
of activity/utilization level - 0-100 seems like a good choice but
others may have a better suggestion.  Devices could support activity
level as read-only, or as read/write, to enable control.

=20

7. Configuration

-I assume it is the management system that is doing the configuring.
This seems out of scope for this document, but I do think it would be
useful content for somewhere.  I have thought that an "Implementation
Advice" non-normative draft would be a helpful addition to our
collection.

-The middle paragraph in this section duplicates content from elsewhere
in the draft.

-The last paragraph seems out of place here.

=20

9. Relationships to other Standards

-Seems like this entire section can be removed as duplicative.



--=20
Bruce Nordman
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Bruce,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regarding your comment &#8211; in fact, components are modeled well =
in Framework; using Entity MIB containment. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Yes, Power supply Topology is not considered in Framework =
&nbsp;&#8211; is there a use case from an EMAN perspective for the =
discovering the &nbsp;power supply topology. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think it would be helpful if the review is not be based on the =
premise that the reference model should integrated with the Framework. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Bruce Nordman<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 12:37 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] Framework =
issues (repost)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I have a number of concerns about the =
Framework draft.<br>I posted the comments below in November before our =
last<br>meeting. I believe all are still relevant to am =
reposting.<br>The original is:<br>&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html">=
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/eman/current/msg00940.html</a><br><b=
r>Thanks,<br><br>-Bruce<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Comments on Framework =
-03<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bruce Nordman, November 6, =
2011<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The framework document (FWK) =
continues to make progress.&nbsp; The work of the authors is much =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The FWK addresses the =
following major types of content:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Relationships among devices, =
including power topology and proxying for non-IP and non-EMAN =
devices<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Power/energy measurement =
details<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Power state =
semantics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Context =
information<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The FWK does not address some =
issues important to eman:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Details of power supply =
topology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Treatment of =
components<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Aggregation of =
information-unified views of objects, both monitoring and =
control<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The FWK draft could have the =
Reference Model (REF) -03 usefully merged into it to fill in many of the =
gaps.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There are also substantive =
issues raised below.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>For REF, it provides explicit =
and detailed modeling of the power relationships among devices so that =
there is no ambiguity.&nbsp; In addition, it enables reporting of =
relationships that are complex and/or not fully known, so that an energy =
management system can be certain of the meaning of reported data or the =
effect of control commands.&nbsp; It does this in a way which is simple =
to understand and implement.&nbsp; The parent-child relationship in FWK =
is apparent to the EMS in the data it has, and may be apparent to =
individual devices, including parents and children.&nbsp; The REF draft =
does not conflict with the FWK but rather fills out details for the =
FWK.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>REF also clarifies that =
components share many characteristics of devices regarding energy =
reporting and control, but that devices have some characteristics that =
components do not.&nbsp; FWK focuses almost entirely on devices rather =
than components (except to the extent that batteries are mentioned), and =
the REF and FWK concepts of a device are consistent.&nbsp; For example, =
presumably components inside a device do not have power relationships =
with other devices.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>One fundamental point in FWK =
is that it states that parent/child communication cannot be via the EMAN =
protocol.&nbsp; It is certainly the case that it is not required to be, =
and in many cases may be to non-IP devices, but often one device will =
speak EMAN to a device &#8220;upstream&#8221; that is not the management =
system, and so utilize that mechanism for reporting and control.&nbsp; =
This assumes that &#8220;parent&#8221; concept applies to any =
relationship between two devices in which power supply, monitoring, =
metering, or control are involved.&nbsp; Another possibility is that =
parent/child is only intended to be applied to relationships that proxy =
to other (possibly non-IP) protocols.&nbsp; This is fine but it should =
then be made clear that many devices will have energy/power =
relationships but do not fall into the parent-child nomenclature.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The rest of this discussion =
is in order of appearance in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Open =
issues:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-1: Yes&#8212;add these =
scenarios by merging in content from REF<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-2: No (no variable states); =
No (not a requirement); batteries a component.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-3: Power levels are a =
different concept from a power state.&nbsp; If a &#8216;power cap&#8217; =
requirement is introduced, this could be accommodated, but should not be =
conflated with power state reporting or control.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1. =
Introduction<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-First two paragraphs are =
generic content that should be moved to a different =
draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2. Requirements and Use =
Cases<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-This should be trimmed down =
considerably.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>4. Energy Management =
Reference Model<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The third paragraph should =
emphasize that the data model is the important part of EMAN and that =
SNMP (and IPFIX) are simply the most obvious and immediately convenient =
ways to communicate that data.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Figure 2 &#8211; as above, =
communication between parent and child may be accomplished via EMAN =
among other possibilities, some not involving =
IP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-&#8220;PC with line =
cards&#8221; - ??? wouldn&#8217;t router or switch be a better example =
for line cards?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5. Framework High Level =
Concepts and Scope<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Delete the 19 lines =
beginning with the &#8220;Procurement&#8221; one. Not needed and not =
helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.1 =
Domain<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Recast this as that a domain =
is a portion of an electricity distribution system that is separately =
metered or carries some other important distinguishing =
characteristic.&nbsp; No need to mention &#8220;utility&#8221; or a =
utility meter.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Note that a child may be in =
a different electricity domain from a parent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Also note that a device may =
draw power from multiple domains simultaneously, so that the domain =
concept really applies to a power interface, not to an entire =
device.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.2.1 =
Identification<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-I am all for use of UUIDs, =
but I don&#8217;t remember that they were made =
mandatory.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-&#8220;unique printable =
name&#8221;.&nbsp; Unique globally? or within some context?&nbsp; Also, =
add more elaboration on this topic.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.2.1 =
Context<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-This should be a separate =
section from Identification, i.e. a new 5.3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.2.3 =
Importance<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Is this tied to a =
requirement or use case?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.3 =
Relationships<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-What does &#8220;keep track =
of&#8221; actually mean in this case?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.4 Energy =
Monitoring<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-No need to mention =
non-electrical energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Fine to use odometer in the =
explanation as an illustrative example, but these are electricity =
meters, NOT odometers, which measure distance =
traveled.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The &#8220;used, produced, =
net&#8221; list is too much for some applications and too little for =
others.&nbsp; The REF provides a way to make clear what meters in a =
device mean.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.4.1 Power =
Measurement<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-It is not necessary for EMAN =
to have a concept of a meter separate from a regular eman device which =
does metering.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Later in paragraph 2, =
reference is made to &#8220;intent&#8221; of measurement; actual =
topology can instead be used to clarify how measurements should =
correspond.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-I don&#8217;t think it =
necessary to distinguish between actual or estimated measurements; =
instead, accuracy is all we need as an actual measurement could be quite =
inaccurate (or accurate), and an estimate could be quite accurate (or =
not).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.4.2 Power =
Quality<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The Demand discussion should =
be in a separate section<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-For batteries, only need a =
single sentence to point to the battery draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.5.1 IEEE 1621 Power State =
Series<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-I have no idea where these =
definitions came from &#8211; not from the IEEE standard.&nbsp; That can =
be found at <a =
href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/controls/1621">eetd.lbl.gov/controls/1621</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.5.2 DMTF Power State =
Series<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The presentation should be =
limited to the DMTF set so the Figure should be adjusted to do that =
(though referencing ACPI does seem OK).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5.5.3 EMAN Power State =
Series<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-I don&#8217;t accept that =
this series should have the EMAN name.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-&#8220;non-operational&#8221;=
 states do not necessarily have a lower power level than on states in =
circumstances such as battery charging &#8211; making this statement is =
simply not needed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-This series combines two =
separate concepts &#8211; a power state, and an activity or utilization =
level.&nbsp; It seems fine to have EMAN able to report level of activity =
of a device at the current time, but forcing these together is arbitrary =
and unnecessary.&nbsp; I would support a variable of =
activity/utilization level &#8211; 0-100 seems like a good choice but =
others may have a better suggestion.&nbsp; Devices could support =
activity level as read-only, or as read/write, to enable =
control.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>7. =
Configuration<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-I assume it is the =
management system that is doing the configuring.&nbsp; This seems out of =
scope for this document, but I do think it would be useful content for =
somewhere.&nbsp; I have thought that an &#8220;Implementation =
Advice&#8221; non-normative draft would be a helpful addition to our =
collection.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The middle paragraph in this =
section duplicates content from elsewhere in the =
draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-The last paragraph seems out =
of place here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>9. Relationships to other =
Standards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-Seems like this entire =
section can be removed as duplicative.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br clear=3Dall><br>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>Bruce =
Nordman</span></b><br><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley =
National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-=
486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF320.F214B4EB--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 03:17:28 2012
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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:17:24 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Dear all,

There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors right now 
about the notion of importance.
We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the "importance".

The current draft version 
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05> only mentions:


        5.1.2. Context information on powered entities

    The energy management standard must provide means for retrieving and
    reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
    associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity's
    role, or importance.


So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
The people who want this, please provide some more text/justifications

Some extra questions:
- Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for non 
Energy Objects?
- Importance is important related to ...?

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)




--------------020107010901060808020800
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Dear all, <br>
    <br>
    There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors right
    now about the notion of importance.<br>
    We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the
    "importance".<br>
    <br>
    The <a
      href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05">current
      draft version</a> only mentions:<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="newpage"><h4><span class="selflink">5.1.2</span>.  Context information on powered entities</h4>   The energy management standard must provide means for retrieving and
   reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity's
   role, or importance.</pre>
    <br>
    So there are no justifications why the importance is required. <br>
    The people who want this, please provide some more
    text/justifications<br>
    <br>
    Some extra questions: <br>
    - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for
    non Energy Objects?<br>
    - Importance is important related to ...?<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020107010901060808020800--

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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Hi Benoit,

That quote equates "powered entity's role" with "importance".

This sounds largely useless and subjective.

There seems to be no interest in having standardized "role"
values in the EMAN community (and I'm not sure it's a
tractable problem, anyway).

How about dropping the "importance" terminology entirely
and sticking to "role as an energy consumer"?

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
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Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>  Dear all,
>
> There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors right now
> about the notion of importance.
> We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the "importance".
>
> The current draft version<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05>only mentions:
>
> 5.1.2.  Context information on powered entities   The energy management standard must provide means for retrieving and
>    reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
>    associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity's
>    role, or importance.
>
>
> So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
> The people who want this, please provide some more text/justifications
>
> Some extra questions:
> - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for non
> Energy Objects?
> - Importance is important related to ...?
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>

--f46d0444eab712932304b9f2197e
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Hi Benoit,<br><br>That quote equates &quot;powered entity&#39;s role&quot; =
with &quot;importance&quot;.<br><br>This sounds largely useless and subject=
ive.<br><br>There seems to be no interest in having standardized &quot;role=
&quot;<br>
values in the EMAN community (and I&#39;m not sure it&#39;s a<br>tractable =
problem, anyway).<br><br>How about dropping the &quot;importance&quot; term=
inology entirely<br>and sticking to &quot;role as an energy consumer&quot;?=
<br>
<br>Cheers,<br>- Ira<br><br clear=3D"all">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software=
 Architect)<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEE=
E-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>Co-Chair=
 - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP &a=
mp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(=
51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_=
blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/high=
northinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><b=
r>mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bluer=
oofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter=A0 579 Park Place=A0 Saline, MI=A0 48176=A0 734-944-0094<br>Summer=
=A0 PO Box 221=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=A0 906-494-2434<div style=3D"displ=
ay:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:=
inline"></div><div>
</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Benoit =
Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all, <br>
    <br>
    There is a discussion amongst the &quot;EMAN requirements&quot; authors=
 right
    now about the notion of importance.<br>
    We&#39;re trying to evaluate the requirements related to the
    &quot;importance&quot;.<br>
    <br>
    The <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-=
05" target=3D"_blank">current
      draft version</a> only mentions:<br>
    <br>
    <pre><h4><span>5.1.2</span>.  Context information on powered entities</=
h4>   The energy management standard must provide means for retrieving and
   reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity&#39;s
   role, or importance.</pre>
    <br>
    So there are no justifications why the importance is required. <br>
    The people who want this, please provide some more
    text/justifications<br>
    <br>
    Some extra questions: <br>
    - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for
    non Energy Objects?<br>
    - Importance is important related to ...?<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><div style id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></div>

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From: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
To: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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From Quittek@neclab.eu  Mon Feb 27 08:01:50 2012
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From: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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+1

Juergen


On 27.02.12 14:29, "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi Benoit,
>
>That quote equates "powered entity's role" with "importance".
>
>This sounds largely useless and subjective.
>
>There seems to be no interest in having standardized "role"
>values in the EMAN community (and I'm not sure it's a
>tractable problem, anyway).
>
>How about dropping the "importance" terminology entirely
>and sticking to "role as an energy consumer"?
>
>Cheers,
>- Ira
>
>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
>Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
>IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
>http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
>http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
>mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
>Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>
>
>
>On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
> =20
>
>   =20
> =20
> =20
>    Dear all,=20
>   =20
>    There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors right
>    now about the notion of importance.
>    We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the
>    "importance".
>   =20
>    The current
>      draft version
><http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05> only
>mentions:
>   =20
>    5.1.2.  Context information on powered entities   The energy
>management standard must provide means for retrieving and
>   reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
>   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity's
>   role, or importance.
>   =20
>    So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
>    The people who want this, please provide some more
>    text/justifications
>   =20
>    Some extra questions:
>    - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for
>    non Energy Objects?
>    - Importance is important related to ...?
>   =20
>    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)
>   =20
>   =20
>   =20
> =20
>
>_______________________________________________
>eman mailing list
>eman@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>eman mailing list
>eman@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman


From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Mon Feb 27 08:09:07 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:08:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Hi,

I agree. I personally also think that importance can be removed. It is ill =
defined in the current document, if _really_ needed it seems like a more ge=
neral concept and I wonder why it should be part of the MIB as opposed to s=
omething that is part of the management system. Regarding role, if it is to=
 stay in the MIB (as opposed to the EnMS) then it also need a better defini=
tion and a good justification why it should be stored on the device itself.

Best,

Rolf


NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London =
W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Ira McDonald
> Sent: Montag, 27. Februar 2012 14:29
> To: Benoit Claise; Ira McDonald
> Cc: eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
>=20
> Hi Benoit,
>=20
> That quote equates "powered entity's role" with "importance".
>=20
> This sounds largely useless and subjective.
>=20
> There seems to be no interest in having standardized "role"
> values in the EMAN community (and I'm not sure it's a tractable problem,
> anyway).
>=20
> How about dropping the "importance" terminology entirely and sticking
> to "role as an energy consumer"?
>=20
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>=20
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation
> Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair -
> IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Chair
> - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG IETF Designated Expert - IPP &
> Printer MIB Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094 Summer  PO Box
> 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> 	Dear all,
>=20
> 	There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors
> right now about the notion of importance.
> 	We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the
> "importance".
>=20
> 	The current draft version <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-
> eman-requirements-05>  only mentions:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 	5.1.2.  Context information on powered entities
>=20
> 	   The energy management standard must provide means for
> retrieving and
> 	   reporting context information on powered entities, for example,
> tags
> 	   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered
> entity's
> 	   role, or importance.
>=20
> 	So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
> 	The people who want this, please provide some more
> text/justifications
>=20
> 	Some extra questions:
> 	- Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for
> non Energy Objects?
> 	- Importance is important related to ...?
>=20
> 	Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	eman mailing list
> 	eman@ietf.org
> 	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>=20
>=20
>=20


From jparello@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 08:42:59 2012
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-1

If you remove context variables such as role: what a device is use for,
and a way to compare devices (importance) how will you determine which
ones you can shed power usage from in times of peak.

I agree this is something that should be in general network management.
Fault correlation and problem tracking would be easier. For power
management of a system the notion of context becomes more critical. For
example if during a peak demand time you want to shed power from you
lighting system and you have no notion of context how would you
determine which lights were decorative, emergency, task, or ambient
lights?=20

The argument that this should be in the management system can be said
for any attribute, it becomes more useful if the devices have these
attributes in them.=20

For example compare this to location attributes. You could argue that a
device need not have  a location attribute and this is part of the NMS -
but look at the usefulness of systems that have been developed when a
standardized location is put in the devices themselves versus a central
NMS.

If you remove context you remove any notion of being able to have
devices work on their own or in concert to control power. You relegate
it to a central system which will become proprietary an intractable with
the IoT.

So if you remove this you remove the core usefulness of the system.
Jp


-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Rolf Winter
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 8:08 AM
To: Ira McDonald; Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Cc: eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance

Hi,

I agree. I personally also think that importance can be removed. It is
ill defined in the current document, if _really_ needed it seems like a
more general concept and I wonder why it should be part of the MIB as
opposed to something that is part of the management system. Regarding
role, if it is to stay in the MIB (as opposed to the EnMS) then it also
need a better definition and a good justification why it should be
stored on the device itself.

Best,

Rolf


NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road,
London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Ira McDonald
> Sent: Montag, 27. Februar 2012 14:29
> To: Benoit Claise; Ira McDonald
> Cc: eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
>=20
> Hi Benoit,
>=20
> That quote equates "powered entity's role" with "importance".
>=20
> This sounds largely useless and subjective.
>=20
> There seems to be no interest in having standardized "role"
> values in the EMAN community (and I'm not sure it's a tractable=20
> problem, anyway).
>=20
> How about dropping the "importance" terminology entirely and sticking=20
> to "role as an energy consumer"?
>=20
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>=20
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation=20
> Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair=20
> - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG=20
> Chair
> - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG IETF Designated Expert - IPP &=20
> Printer MIB Blue Roof Music/High North Inc=20
> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094 Summer  PO Box
> 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> 	Dear all,
>=20
> 	There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors
right=20
> now about the notion of importance.
> 	We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the=20
> "importance".
>=20
> 	The current draft version
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-
> eman-requirements-05>  only mentions:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 	5.1.2.  Context information on powered entities
>=20
> 	   The energy management standard must provide means for
retrieving=20
> and
> 	   reporting context information on powered entities, for
example,=20
> tags
> 	   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered=20
> entity's
> 	   role, or importance.
>=20
> 	So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
> 	The people who want this, please provide some more=20
> text/justifications
>=20
> 	Some extra questions:
> 	- Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also
for non=20
> Energy Objects?
> 	- Importance is important related to ...?
>=20
> 	Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	eman mailing list
> 	eman@ietf.org
> 	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>=20
>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

From jparello@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 08:51:03 2012
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Juergen Quittek" <Quittek@neclab.eu>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Hi Juergen,

We seem to be discussing two concepts.=20

The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power =
another. So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have =
multiple sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to =
powered.  Same pattern for metered by.

The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like =
a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the =
relationships between them.

I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is =
covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a =
domain needs to be defined.

Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby =
relationships.

Jp



-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu]=20
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single =
Energy Management Domain

Hi John,

I have two points:=20
1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is =
in.
2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.

1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB =
object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the =
power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a =
desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a =
domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a =
device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the =
energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB =
object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who =
would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who =
would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This =
may use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own =
domain names.


2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind =
of devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  =
If you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there =
is no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have =
a few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution =
tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.

In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is =
to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have =
one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to =
the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one =
example.


My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we =
really
want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you =
say,
it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating =
things
by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right =
from
the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
domains per power interface.

    Juergen



On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> wrote:

>I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
>EMAN specification to keep things simple.
>I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You =
can
>always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
>prevalent.
>
>While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
>power sources and each power source in a different management domain =
it's
>just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
>management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>
>To put this in network management terms it would be like having a =
switch
>with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
>community. =20
>
>Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
>the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
>Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
>roll up or combine the information anyway.
>
>So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
>this in management apps will have to code and check for this =
complexity.
>The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
>are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
>Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since =
this
>data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>
>Jp
>
>PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>Juergen Quittek
>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
>To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>Energy Management Domain
>
>Hi all,
>
>I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
>with redundant and diverse power sources.
>
>Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
>if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>
>Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
>rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.
>
>Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
>Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And =
our
>energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario =
that
>Bill pointed us to.
>
>And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an =
energy
>object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
>energy object is in that domain.
>
>Thanks,
>    Juergen
>
>On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> =20
>> =20
>>    Dear all,
>>   =20
>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part =
of
>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>>   =20
>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>>   =20
>>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
>>      assumption.
>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has =
redundant
>>      and diverse
>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>>      access to
>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>>      between them
>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>>      examples of
>>      different metering domains?=B2
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>    Energy
>>      Management Domain
>>    An
>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>>    =20
>>    For
>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>    =20
>>    For
>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution =
panel
>>      with the same
>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for =
which
>>      there is one
>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>>    =20
>>    NOTES:
>>   =20
>>    1.
>>      Typically,
>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>>      same source.
>>    =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>   =20
>>    Is this enough?
>>   =20
>>    Please let us know.
>>   =20
>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>> =20
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>eman mailing list
>>eman@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>_______________________________________________
>eman mailing list
>eman@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman


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References: <4F4B6644.2030503@cisco.com> <CB71229C.206B9%brads@coraid.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:44:42 -0500
Message-ID: <CAN40gSv6HDcFD6Sa+nj1JMXodYRmp4qYTOuz7WUV4iFFrR7vxg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Hi,

Brad - good precedent - because it makes the "importance"
machine readable (and therefore useful).

But since EMAN (and many other IETF WGs) have consistently
backed away from any standard definition of "role" (w/ behavior
semantics that are predictable), a text string of "role" is useless
(except in a vendor- or site-specific manner - out-of-scope IMHO).

And I suggest that the "universe of things" is too diverse to lend
itself to an IANA registry of standard "role" keywords.

Cheers,
- Ira


Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Benoit,
>
> There is a precedence for doing this on the device in the PoE MIB, rfc362=
1
> which defines pethPsePortPowerPriority:
>
>    pethPsePortPowerPriority OBJECT-TYPE
>     SYNTAX INTEGER   {
>                critical(1),
>                high(2),
>                low(3)
>      }
>     MAX-ACCESS read-write
>     STATUS current
>     DESCRIPTION
>         "This object controls the priority of the port from the point
>          of view of a power management algorithm.  The priority that
>          is set by this variable could be used by a control mechanism
>          that prevents over current situations by disconnecting first
>          ports with lower power priority.  Ports that connect devices
>          critical to the operation of the network - like the E911
>          telephones ports - should be set to higher priority."
>     ::=3D { pethPsePortEntry 7 }
>
>
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:17:24 -0600
> To: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
>
>  Dear all,
>
> There is a discussion amongst the "EMAN requirements" authors right now
> about the notion of importance.
> We're trying to evaluate the requirements related to the "importance".
>
> The current draft version<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requ=
irements-05>only mentions:
>
> 5.1.2.  Context information on powered entities   The energy management s=
tandard must provide means for retrieving and
>    reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
>    associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity's
>    role, or importance.
>
>
> So there are no justifications why the importance is required.
> The people who want this, please provide some more text/justifications
>
> Some extra questions:
> - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for non
> Energy Objects?
> - Importance is important related to ...?
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>

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Hi,<br><br>Brad - good precedent - because it makes the &quot;importance&qu=
ot;<br>machine readable (and therefore useful).<br><br>But since EMAN (and =
many other IETF WGs) have consistently<br>backed away from any standard def=
inition of &quot;role&quot; (w/ behavior<br>
semantics that are predictable), a text string of &quot;role&quot; is usele=
ss<br>(except in a vendor- or site-specific manner - out-of-scope IMHO).<br=
><br>And I suggest that the &quot;universe of things&quot; is too diverse t=
o lend<br>
itself to an IANA registry of standard &quot;role&quot; keywords.<br><br>Ch=
eers,<br>- Ira<br><br><br clear=3D"all">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software A=
rchitect)<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-=
ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP WG<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solution=
s WG<br>Chair - TCG Embedded Systems Hardcopy SG<br>IETF Designated Expert =
- IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br><a style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/high=
northinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><b=
r>mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bluer=
oofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter=C2=A0 579 Park Place=C2=A0 Saline, MI=C2=A0 48176=C2=A0 734-944-0094=
<br>Summer=C2=A0 PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434=
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><di=
v style=3D"display:inline"></div><div>
</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Brad S=
choening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@co=
raid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div><div><div>Benoit,</div><div><br></div><div>There is a precedenc=
e for doing this on the device in the PoE MIB, rfc3621 which defines pethPs=
ePortPowerPriority:</div>
<div><pre style=3D"line-height:22px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;f=
ont-variant:normal;color:rgb(46,44,44);text-align:left;text-transform:none;=
font-style:normal;font-size:15px;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px">   pe=
thPsePortPowerPriority OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX INTEGER   {
               critical(1),
               high(2),
               low(3)
     }
    MAX-ACCESS read-write
    STATUS current
    DESCRIPTION
        &quot;This object controls the priority of the port from the point
         of view of a power management algorithm.  The priority that
         is set by this variable could be used by a control mechanism
         that prevents over current situations by disconnecting first
         ports with lower power priority.  Ports that connect devices
         critical to the operation of the network - like the E911
         telephones ports - should be set to higher priority.&quot;
    ::=3D { pethPsePortEntry 7 }</pre><pre style=3D"line-height:22px;text-i=
ndent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;color:rgb(46,44,44);tex=
t-align:left;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;font-size:15px;font-weig=
ht:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br></pre><pre style=3D"line-height:22px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;font-variant:normal;color:rgb(46,44,44);text-align:left;text-transform:=
none;font-style:normal;font-size:15px;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br></pre></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;ma=
rgin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14=
px">Brad Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a>=
</span></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:529A1CC3-D695-4816-A0EE-BA594D6A92CC" alt=3D"De=
scription: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" height=3D"46" border=
=3D"0" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefini=
ng Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0=
in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-b=
ottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-=
bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:17:24 -06=
00<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> eman mailing list &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of =
importance<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all, <br>
    <br>
    There is a discussion amongst the &quot;EMAN requirements&quot; authors=
 right
    now about the notion of importance.<br>
    We&#39;re trying to evaluate the requirements related to the
    &quot;importance&quot;.<br>
    <br>
    The <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-=
05" target=3D"_blank">current
      draft version</a> only mentions:<br>
    <br>
    <pre><h4><span>5.1.2</span>.  Context information on powered entities</=
h4>   The energy management standard must provide means for retrieving and
   reporting context information on powered entities, for example, tags
   associated with a powered entity that indicate the powered entity&#39;s
   role, or importance.</pre>
    <br>
    So there are no justifications why the importance is required. <br>
    The people who want this, please provide some more
    text/justifications<br>
    <br>
    Some extra questions: <br>
    - Is this importance specific to EMAN or is this generic also for
    non Energy Objects?<br>
    - Importance is important related to ...?<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-REQ)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div></div></div></div></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><div style id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></div>

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From: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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I don't mind if this is removed

=20

Jp

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:28 AM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship

=20

Dear all,

Here is what the current terminology draft contains:





Dependency Relationship


An Energy Object may be a component of or rely completely upon another
Energy Object to operate and is referred to as a Dependency
Relationship. =20

=20

Example: A Switch chassis with multiple line cards.


The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency
relationship".

Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the
ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship"
(typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as
expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this
relationship type.

Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)


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class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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D'>I don&#8217;t mind if this is removed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
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0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 =
6:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] =
EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
all,<br><br>Here is what the current terminology draft =
contains:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><h2 =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:42.9pt'><a name=3D"_Toc317184330">Dependency =
Relationship</a><o:p></o:p></h2><p class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>An Energy Object may be a =
component of or rely completely upon another Energy Object to operate =
and is referred to as a Dependency Relationship. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>Example: A Switch chassis with =
multiple line cards.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br>The [EMAN-FMWK] also =
contains a reference to this &quot;dependency =
relationship&quot;.<br><br>Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and =
since we can use the ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this =
&quot;dependency relationship&quot; (typically to know that this line =
card belong to this switch, as expressed in the example), I believe that =
we don't need this relationship type.<br><br>Please let me know =
otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.<br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a =
contributor for EMAN-FMWK)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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I presented this in Quebec. I think adding a new "ganged relationship"
between energy objects is the best approach. With the framework we can
model any new relationship type.

=20

So we've got no requirements for this as yet but it can surely be added.

=20

Jp

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:47 AM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of Energy Objects with
the"keywords"

=20

Dear all,

Regarding the following section in the [EMAN-FMWK]

Another keyword use case is the virtual grouping of Energy Objects.
[B.C.1]=20

________________________________

 [B.C.1]


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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I presented this in Quebec. I think adding a new &#8220;ganged =
relationship&#8221; between energy objects is the best approach. With =
the framework we can model any new relationship =
type.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So we&#8217;ve got no requirements for this as yet but it can surely =
be added.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 =
6:47 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] =
EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of Energy Objects with =
the&quot;keywords&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dear all,<br><br>Regarding the following =
section in the [EMAN-FMWK]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2=
2.5pt'><a =
style=3D'mso-comment-reference:"B\.C\._1";mso-comment-date:20120221T1250'=
>Another keyword use case is the virtual grouping of Energy =
Objects.&nbsp; </a><span class=3DMsoCommentReference><![if =
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language=3DJavaScript =
name=3D"_msoanchor_1">[B.C.1]</a><![endif]>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div style=3D'mso-element:comment-list'><![if =
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class=3DMsoCommentReference>&nbsp;<![if !supportAnnotations]><a =
href=3D"#_msoanchor_1" =
class=3Dmsocomoff>[B.C.1]</a><![endif]></span></p><![if =
!supportAnnotations]></div><![endif]></div></div></body></html>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF59A.0AA6C71C--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 15:24:38 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:24:31 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Juergen,

> Hi John,
>
> I have two points: 
> 1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in.
> 2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
>
> 1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
> object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
> power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
> desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
> domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
> device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
> energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
> object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
> would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
> would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
> use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
> names.
I see more and more often this discussion of where should the
intelligence be: in the NMS with Stupid (read Simple from SNMP) devices,
versus in the devices themselves.
If we had only one NMS, the intelligence might be in the NMS. However,
it's not the case. Simply NMS and EnMS are different beasts.
Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the devices

Note: I don't understand your argument of being dynamic.
However, don't we have the solution with the sentence "This object
specifies a zero-length string value if no Energy Management Domain name
is configured." in the following object.

      eoDomainName OBJECT-TYPE
            SYNTAX          SnmpAdminString
            MAX-ACCESS      read-write
            STATUS          current
            DESCRIPTION
               "This object specifies the name of an Energy Management
               Domain for the Energy Object.  This object specifies a
               zero-length string value if no Energy Management Domain
               name is configured. The value of eoDomainName must remain
               constant at least from one re-initialization of the
               entity's network management system to the next re-
               initialization."


In other words, if you don't want to use, put a zero-length string.

Regards, Benoit.
> 2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
> devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If you
> have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is no
> need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a few
> dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution tree,
> you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.
>
> In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is to
> balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have one
> domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to the
> other in order 
> to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one example.
>
>
> My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
> want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say,
> it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
> to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating things
> by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
> the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
> domains per power interface.
>
>     Juergen
>
>
>
> On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
>> EMAN specification to keep things simple.
>> I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can
>> always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
>> prevalent.
>>
>> While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
>> power sources and each power source in a different management domain it's
>> just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
>> management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>>
>> To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
>> with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
>> community.  
>>
>> Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
>> the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
>> Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
>> roll up or combine the information anyway.
>>
>> So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
>> this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
>> The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
>> are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
>> Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
>> data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>>
>> Jp
>>
>> PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Juergen Quittek
>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
>> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
>> with redundant and diverse power sources.
>>
>> Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
>> if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>>
>> Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
>> rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.
>>
>> Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
>> Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And our
>> energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
>> Bill pointed us to.
>>
>> And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
>> object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
>> energy object is in that domain.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>    Juergen
>>
>> On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>    Dear all,
>>>    
>>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
>>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>>>    
>>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>>>    
>>>    ©øI don't think that this is a valid
>>>      assumption.
>>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
>>>      and diverse
>>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>>>      access to
>>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>>>      between them
>>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>>>      examples of
>>>      different metering domains?©÷
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    Energy
>>>      Management Domain
>>>    An
>>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>>>     
>>>    For
>>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>>     
>>>    For
>>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>>>      with the same
>>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
>>>      there is one
>>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>>>     
>>>    NOTES:
>>>    
>>>    1.
>>>      Typically,
>>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>>>      same source.
>>>     
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    
>>>    Is this enough?
>>>    
>>>    Please let us know.
>>>    
>>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>>>  
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eman mailing list
>>> eman@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 15:30:23 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Juergen Quittek" <Quittek@neclab.eu>, "Brad Schoening" <brads@coraid.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "emanmailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From bclaise@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 15:49:18 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:49:14 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: Power Source Relationship and power interface
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Dear all,

[EMAN-FMWK] = 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official 
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] = 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Discussing about the differences between [EMAN-FMWK] and [EMAN-REF] with 
one author of the [EMAN-REF], there is one open issue that needs to be 
resolved.

[EMAN-FMWK], specifies, via the terminology draft:


    Power Source Relationship

An Energy Object may be the source of or distributor of Power to another 
Energy Object(s) and is referred to as a Power Source Relationship.

Example: a PDU provides power for a connected host.


This relationship is modeled by  eoMeteredBy in [EMAN-AWARE-MIB], 
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt

_Issue 1: _
[EMAN-FMWK] has the poweredBy relationship, which imposes a direction 
"from A to B"
[EMAN-REF] wants to have a kind of "wiring topology" relationship, and 
then the power direction is deduced from the counters
As far as I understand, [EMAN-REF] is after a "power relationship".

_Issue 2:_
[EMAN-REF] mentions the notion of power interface.
Taking into account the terminology from [EMAN-FMWK]
     A power interface is an Energy Object that has one Power Source 
Relationship
     Note: it may have other relationships (such as Metering or Proxy 
Relationship, like in POE)
Do we need this notion in the [EMAN-FMWK]?

Please share your thoughts on both issues, which are linked,

I put the problem on the table, to start the discussion, and I'll give 
my feedback later.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]







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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] =
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the
    official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] =
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Discussing about the differences between [EMAN-FMWK] and [EMAN-REF]
    with one author of the [EMAN-REF], there is one open issue that
    needs to be resolved.<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK], specifies, via the terminology draft:<br>
    <br>
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    This relationship is modeled by&nbsp; eoMeteredBy in [EMAN-AWARE-MIB],
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt</a><br>
    <br>
    <u>Issue 1: </u><br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] has the poweredBy relationship, which imposes a
    direction "from A to B"<br>
    [EMAN-REF] wants to have a kind of "wiring topology" relationship,
    and then the power direction is deduced from the counters<br>
    As far as I understand, [EMAN-REF] is after a "power relationship".<br>
    <br>
    <u>Issue 2:</u><br>
    [EMAN-REF] mentions the notion of power interface.<br>
    Taking into account the terminology from [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A power interface is an Energy Object that has one Power Source
    Relationship <br>
    &nbsp; &nbsp; Note: it may have other relationships (such as Metering or Proxy
    Relationship, like in POE)<br>
    Do we need this notion in the [EMAN-FMWK]?<br>
    <br>
    Please share your thoughts on both issues, which are linked,<br>
    <blockquote>
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    I put the problem on the table, to start the discussion, and I'll
    give my feedback later.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:52:47 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Dear all,

 From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

    [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model
    that can't be done in the framework?

    [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework
    because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
    inherently focuses on net energy flow.

We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed 
in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while 
the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?

[EMAN-FMWK] = 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official 
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] = 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]



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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><br>
    <blockquote>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the
      reference model that can't be done in the framework?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote>[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
      framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference
      model inherently focuses on net energy flow.<br>
    </blockquote>
    We would like to know if there are other things that this one
    (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF]
    could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] = <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
      href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>,
    the official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] = <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060604010806050406080502--

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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>, Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
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In-Reply-To: <CB717076.20C09%brads@coraid.com>
References: <4F4C174F.6000302@cisco.com> <CB717076.20C09%brads@coraid.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:17:20 -0800
Message-ID: <CAK+eDP_1b47rVRLs1-E5HV4fDP7ViHG2EfDUFR75y8J-=-M3fA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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--047d7b2ed3c5eea6f604ba002dd2
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Certainly.  IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard for
distributing low-voltage DC power.  Originally designed for notebook
computers,
the goal is now a wide variety of products.  From a power perspective a
UPAMD
hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not restricted
to flow
only away from the hub.
Similarly, HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.  It is in
many ways
a superset of PoE.
As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries an=
d
local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution only
increases,
and technology is arriving to enable that.
In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or entirel=
y
ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make goo=
d
use of EMAN.

In general, one can compute power metering or power supply relationships
from data on wiring topology.  The reverse is generally not possible.
This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.

--Bruce

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Could you explain what you mean by 'bi-directional supply'.  I searched
> for the term 'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able to find it.
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -0600
> To: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
>
>  Dear all,
>
> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework?
>
> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because
> of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on
> net energy flow.
>
> We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
> in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the
> [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>
> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework=
/,
> the official EMAN document
> [EMAN-REF] =3D
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2ed3c5eea6f604ba002dd2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Certainly.=C2=A0 IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard =
for<br>distributing low-voltage DC power.=C2=A0 Originally designed for not=
ebook computers,<br>the goal is now a wide variety of products.=C2=A0 From =
a power perspective a UPAMD<br>
hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not restricted =
to flow<br>only away from the hub.=C2=A0 <br>Similarly, HDBaseT supports po=
wer flowing in either direction.=C2=A0 It is in many ways<br>a superset of =
PoE.<br>
As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries an=
d<br>local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution o=
nly increases,<br>and technology is arriving to enable that.<br>In both of =
these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or entirely<br>
ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make goo=
d<br>use of EMAN.<br><br>In general, one can compute power metering or powe=
r supply relationships<br>from data on wiring topology.=C2=A0 The reverse i=
s generally not possible.<br>
This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.<br><br>-=
-Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, B=
rad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">bra=
ds@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br><=
/div>
<div>Could you explain what you mean by &#39;bi-directional supply&#39;. =
=C2=A0I searched for the term &#39;bidirectional&#39; in your document and =
wasn&#39;t able to find it.</div><div><br></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-botto=
m:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@=
coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190=
" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=
=3D"image/png" height=3D"46" border=3D"0" width=3D"95"></a></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0=
in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-b=
ottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-=
bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -06=
00<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> eman mailing list &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN=
-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
    <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><br>
    <blockquote>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the
      reference model that can&#39;t be done in the framework?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote>[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
      framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference
      model inherently focuses on net energy flow.<br>
    </blockquote>
    We would like to know if there are other things that this one
    (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF]
    could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-e=
man-framework/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-eman-framework/</a>,
    the official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek=
-eman-reference-model/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div></div></div></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--047d7b2ed3c5eea6f604ba002dd2--

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Thread-Topic: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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References: <4F4C174F.6000302@cisco.com>
From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Benoit,

=20

As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting,=20

=20

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

=20

There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in the
minutes)

=20

1.       Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal
components (based on the Entity MIB).=20

=20

2.       Framework allows - flexible relations -  poweredBy, meteredBy,
ControledBy. =20

There are scenarios - in which all of these functions can be performed
by the same entity. =20

In some important cases, there are different entities doing these
functions .=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli=20

=20

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?

=20

Dear all,

>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

	[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
inherently focuses on net energy flow.

We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while
the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?

[EMAN-FMWK] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]




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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Benoit,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:windowtext'>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the =
reference model that can't be done in the framework? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting =
&nbsp;(missed in the minutes)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal components =
(based on the Entity MIB). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows &#8211; flexible relations -&nbsp; poweredBy, =
meteredBy, ControledBy.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There are scenarios &#8211; in which all of these functions can be =
performed by the same entity. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In some important cases, there are different entities doing these =
functions . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, =
2012 5:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] =
[EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
all,<br><br>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the =
reference model that can't be done in the framework? =
<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>[BN] =
- Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because of =
the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on =
net energy flow.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We would like to know if there are other =
things that this one (discussed in my previous email on the list), that =
the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could =
not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official =
EMAN document<br>[EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-mode=
l/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</=
a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the =
[EMAN-FMWK]<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From moulchan@cisco.com  Mon Feb 27 22:49:57 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:49:52 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Juergen Quittek" <Quittek@neclab.eu>, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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The idea of devices grouped by the same power distribution tree - would =
be one special case of the use the "domain" concept.

Thanks
Mouli


-----Original Message-----
From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Juergen Quittek
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:49 AM
To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single =
Energy Management Domain

Hi John,=20

We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
would be good for.

Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line =
or
in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?

The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain should/need =
to
be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
questions "Who sets the domain on a devices?" and "Who reads the domain =
of
a device?".

And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.

Cheers,
    Juergen



On 27.02.12 17:51, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> wrote:

>Hi Juergen,
>
>We seem to be discussing two concepts.
>
>The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power =
another.
>So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
>sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
>Same pattern for metered by.
>
>The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. =
Like
>a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
>relationships between them.
>
>I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain =
is
>covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a =
domain
>needs to be defined.
>
>Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby =
relationships.
>
>Jp
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu]
>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
>To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>Energy Management Domain
>
>Hi John,
>
>I have two points:
>1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is =
in.
>2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
>
>1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
>object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change =
the
>power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
>desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
>domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect =
a
>device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of =
the
>energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
>object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
>would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management =
Who
>would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This =
may
>use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
>names.
>
>
>2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind =
of
>devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
>you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there =
is
>no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
>few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
>tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.
>
>In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
>to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to =
have
>one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
>the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one
>example.
>
>
>My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we =
really
>want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you =
say,
>it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN =
specification
>to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating =
things
>by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right =
from
>the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
>domains per power interface.
>
>    Juergen
>
>
>
>On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>
>>I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
>>EMAN specification to keep things simple.
>>I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You =
can
>>always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
>>prevalent.
>>
>>While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
>>power sources and each power source in a different management domain =
it's
>>just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
>>management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>>
>>To put this in network management terms it would be like having a =
switch
>>with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
>>community. =20
>>
>>Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance =
and
>>the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
>>Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
>>roll up or combine the information anyway.
>>
>>So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
>>this in management apps will have to code and check for this =
complexity.
>>The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / =
children
>>are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
>>Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since =
this
>>data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>>
>>Jp
>>
>>PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
>>Juergen Quittek
>>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
>>To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>>Energy Management Domain
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
>>with redundant and diverse power sources.
>>
>>Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to =
problems
>>if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>>
>>Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
>>rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy =
objects.
>>
>>Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
>>Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And =
our
>>energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario =
that
>>Bill pointed us to.
>>
>>And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an =
energy
>>object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the =
entire
>>energy object is in that domain.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>    Juergen
>>
>>On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>    Dear all,
>>>   =20
>>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part =
of
>>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>>>   =20
>>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>>>   =20
>>>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
>>>      assumption.
>>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has =
redundant
>>>      and diverse
>>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>>>      access to
>>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically =
switch
>>>      between them
>>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>>>      examples of
>>>      different metering domains?=B2
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>    Energy
>>>      Management Domain
>>>    An
>>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of =
management.
>>>    =20
>>>    For
>>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>>    =20
>>>    For
>>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution =
panel
>>>      with the same
>>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for =
which
>>>      there is one
>>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>>>    =20
>>>    NOTES:
>>>   =20
>>>    1.
>>>      Typically,
>>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from =
the
>>>      same source.
>>>    =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>   =20
>>>    Is this enough?
>>>   =20
>>>    Please let us know.
>>>   =20
>>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>>> =20
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>eman mailing list
>>>eman@ietf.org
>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>eman mailing list
>>eman@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: Power Source Relationship and power interface
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Hi Benoit,=20

The fundamental problem to be solved is  -=20

How to monitor and measure of  network device and devices attached to
the network.=20

One approach, It is possible to model the device in terms of components
and measure the energy consumption of devices and model power states of
the device. =20

For the devices attached to the network, there are relationship - how is
the power supplied, who controls the device etc.   Allows greater
flexibility to control or reporting.=20

The second approach is to model an entity as having  power interfaces
(input and output).  From a single device, there are inputs and outputs.


=20

ISSUE 1:   Parent/Child concept can be used to model Powered
relationship.   But, I do not see from EMAN perspective, why we need to
keep track of the power distribution tree.=20

=20

ISSUE 2:  Power Interface concept - as mentioned in another thread -
what is the additional problem that can be solved.=20

=20

If Power Interface is the standardized way to communicate to any Energy
Object (in terms of measurement of power, power states, ...) that is
what EMAN MIB  (informational model) provides.=20

Thanks

Mouli

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:19 AM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: Power Source Relationship
and power interface

=20

Dear all,

[EMAN-FMWK] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Discussing about the differences between [EMAN-FMWK] and [EMAN-REF] with
one author of the [EMAN-REF], there is one open issue that needs to be
resolved.

[EMAN-FMWK], specifies, via the terminology draft:





Power Source Relationship


An Energy Object may be the source of or distributor of Power to another
Energy Object(s) and is referred to as a Power Source Relationship. =20

=20

Example: a PDU provides power for a connected host.


This relationship is modeled by  eoMeteredBy in [EMAN-AWARE-MIB],
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt

Issue 1:=20
[EMAN-FMWK] has the poweredBy relationship, which imposes a direction
"from A to B"
[EMAN-REF] wants to have a kind of "wiring topology" relationship, and
then the power direction is deduced from the counters
As far as I understand, [EMAN-REF] is after a "power relationship".

Issue 2:
[EMAN-REF] mentions the notion of power interface.
Taking into account the terminology from [EMAN-FMWK]
    A power interface is an Energy Object that has one Power Source
Relationship=20
    Note: it may have other relationships (such as Metering or Proxy
Relationship, like in POE)
Do we need this notion in the [EMAN-FMWK]?

Please share your thoughts on both issues, which are linked,

I put the problem on the table, to start the discussion, and I'll give
my feedback later.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]








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class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
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D'> Hi Benoit, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The fundamental problem to be solved is&nbsp; - =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>How to monitor and measure of&nbsp; network device and devices =
attached to the network. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>One approach, It is possible to model the device in terms of =
components and measure the energy consumption of devices and model power =
states of the device. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>For the devices attached to the network, there are relationship =
&#8211; how is the power supplied, who controls the device etc. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Allows greater flexibility to control or reporting. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The second approach is to model an entity as having&nbsp; power =
interfaces (input and output). &nbsp;From a single device, there are =
inputs and outputs. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>ISSUE 1: &nbsp;&nbsp;Parent/Child concept can be used to model =
Powered relationship.&nbsp; &nbsp;But, I do not see from EMAN =
perspective, why we need to keep track of the power distribution tree. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>ISSUE 2: &nbsp;Power Interface concept &#8211; as mentioned in =
another thread &#8211; what is the additional problem that can be =
solved. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If Power Interface is the standardized way to communicate to any =
Energy Object (in terms of measurement of power, power states, &#8230;) =
that is what EMAN MIB &nbsp;(informational model) provides. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, =
2012 5:19 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] =
[EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: Power Source Relationship and power =
interface<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
all,<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official =
EMAN document<br>[EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-mode=
l/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</=
a><br><br>Discussing about the differences between [EMAN-FMWK] and =
[EMAN-REF] with one author of the [EMAN-REF], there is one open issue =
that needs to be resolved.<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK], specifies, via the =
terminology draft:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><h2 =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:42.9pt'><a name=3D"_Toc317184328">Power Source =
Relationship</a><o:p></o:p></h2><p class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>An Energy Object may be the =
source of or distributor of Power to another Energy Object(s) and is =
referred to as a Power Source Relationship. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Drfctext =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'>Example: a PDU provides power for =
a connected host.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br>This relationship is =
modeled by&nbsp; eoMeteredBy in [EMAN-AWARE-MIB], <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt">h=
ttp://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-aware-mib-04.txt</a><br><br>=
<u>Issue 1: </u><br>[EMAN-FMWK] has the poweredBy relationship, which =
imposes a direction &quot;from A to B&quot;<br>[EMAN-REF] wants to have =
a kind of &quot;wiring topology&quot; relationship, and then the power =
direction is deduced from the counters<br>As far as I understand, =
[EMAN-REF] is after a &quot;power relationship&quot;.<br><br><u>Issue =
2:</u><br>[EMAN-REF] mentions the notion of power interface.<br>Taking =
into account the terminology from [EMAN-FMWK]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A =
power interface is an Energy Object that has one Power Source =
Relationship <br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Note: it may have other relationships =
(such as Metering or Proxy Relationship, like in POE)<br>Do we need this =
notion in the [EMAN-FMWK]?<br><br>Please share your thoughts on both =
issues, which are linked,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;line-height:normal'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>I put the problem on the =
table, to start the discussion, and I'll give my feedback =
later.<br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the =
[EMAN-FMWK]<br><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></h=
tml>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF5E8.3300A39C--

From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Tue Feb 28 00:28:18 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
Thread-Index: AQHM9WAxW7UAW2HNsU2TVx+WqM4EopZRUmWAgACmycA=
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 08:28:04 +0000
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References: <CB71424F.437E4%quittek@neclab.eu> <4F4C10AF.5010603@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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We should at least make things that make devices more intelligent optional =
to implement since we want to support really, really simple devices like de=
vices that can only report the state they are in.=20

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London =
W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Benoit Claise
> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012 00:25
> To: Juergen Quittek
> Cc: eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>=20
> Juergen,
>=20
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I have two points:
> > 1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it
> is in.
> > 2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
> >
> > 1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a
> > MIB object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I
> > change the power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or
> > whenever I move a desktop phone from one wing of the building to
> > another, I may have a domain change.  If we have a UUID for the
> > device, it is easy to detect a device, identify it and map it to a
> > proper domain in the database of the energy management system.  Why
> > then would I need to have a writable MIB object where I can store the
> > new domain the device has moved in?  Who would do this wrork?  The
> > technician moving the phone?  A management Who would read this
> > information?  Another energy management system?  This may use
> > different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
> names.
> I see more and more often this discussion of where should the
> intelligence be: in the NMS with Stupid (read Simple from SNMP) devices,
> versus in the devices themselves.
> If we had only one NMS, the intelligence might be in the NMS. However,
> it's not the case. Simply NMS and EnMS are different beasts.
> Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the devices
>=20
> Note: I don't understand your argument of being dynamic.
> However, don't we have the solution with the sentence "This object
> specifies a zero-length string value if no Energy Management Domain
> name is configured." in the following object.
>=20
>       eoDomainName OBJECT-TYPE
>             SYNTAX          SnmpAdminString
>             MAX-ACCESS      read-write
>             STATUS          current
>             DESCRIPTION
>                "This object specifies the name of an Energy Management
>                Domain for the Energy Object.  This object specifies a
>                zero-length string value if no Energy Management Domain
>                name is configured. The value of eoDomainName must
> remain
>                constant at least from one re-initialization of the
>                entity's network management system to the next re-
>                initialization."
>=20
>=20
> In other words, if you don't want to use, put a zero-length string.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit.
> > 2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the
> kind
> > of devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.
> > If you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously,
> > there is no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you
> > just have a few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power
> > distribution tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple
> domains.
> >
> > In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there
> > is to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense
> to
> > have one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one
> > domain to the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's
> > just one example.
> >
> >
> > My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we
> > really want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?
> > As you say, it would be recommendable "for a first version of the
> EMAN
> > specification to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of
> > complicating things by storing domain information on devices, then we
> > should do it right from the beginning, cover use cases raised on the
> > mailing list, and support domains per power interface.
> >
> >     Juergen
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of
> the
> >> EMAN specification to keep things simple.
> >> I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You
> >> can always enhance the data model in a revision later if this
> becomes
> >> prevalent.
> >>
> >> While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with
> redundant
> >> power sources and each power source in a different management domain
> >> it's just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up
> >> energy management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
> >>
> >> To put this in network management terms it would be like having a
> >> switch with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a
> >> different community.
> >>
> >> Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance
> >> and the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management
> domain.
> >> Worse case if they are in different communities a management app
> will
> >> roll up or combine the information anyway.
> >>
> >> So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you
> >> put this in management apps will have to code and check for this
> complexity.
> >> The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets /
> >> children are in the same domain and then declare membership of the
> parent.
> >> Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since
> >> this data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
> >>
> >> Jp
> >>
> >> PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >> Of Juergen Quittek
> >> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
> >> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> >> Energy Management Domain
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on
> devices
> >> with redundant and diverse power sources.
> >>
> >> Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to
> >> problems if the energy object has multiple power inlets from
> different domains.
> >>
> >> Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
> >> rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy
> objects.
> >>
> >> Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
> >> Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains.
> And
> >> our energy management model would exactly match the real world
> >> scenario that Bill pointed us to.
> >>
> >> And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an
> >> energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that
> >> the entire energy object is in that domain.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>    Juergen
> >>
> >> On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    Dear all,
> >>>
> >>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is
> part of
> >>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
> >>>
> >>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
> >>>
> >>>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
> >>>      assumption.
> >>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has
> redundant
> >>>      and diverse
> >>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
> >>>      access to
> >>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically
> switch
> >>>      between them
> >>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these
> not
> >>>      examples of
> >>>      different metering domains?=B2
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    Energy
> >>>      Management Domain
> >>>    An
> >>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
> >>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of
> management.
> >>>
> >>>    For
> >>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
> >>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
> >>>
> >>>    For
> >>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution
> panel
> >>>      with the same
> >>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for
> which
> >>>      there is one
> >>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
> >>>
> >>>    NOTES:
> >>>
> >>>    1.
> >>>      Typically,
> >>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from
> the
> >>>      same source.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    Is this enough?
> >>>
> >>>    Please let us know.
> >>>
> >>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> eman mailing list
> >>> eman@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> eman mailing list
> >> eman@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
> >
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman

From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Tue Feb 28 00:35:57 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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References: <4F4B6644.2030503@cisco.com><CB71229C.206B9%brads@coraid.com> <CAN40gSv6HDcFD6Sa+nj1JMXodYRmp4qYTOuz7WUV4iFFrR7vxg@mail.gmail.com> <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9740@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com>
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From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de  Tue Feb 28 00:36:43 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:36:37 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:28:04AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:

> We should at least make things that make devices more intelligent
> optional to implement since we want to support really, really simple
> devices like devices that can only report the state they are in.

Frankly, I fail to see intelligence here. This seems to be a post-it
object that might help coordinate management applications. If a device
is supposed to be doing anything intelligent with this object's value,
then the elements of procedure need to be defined somewhere I think.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Tue Feb 28 00:43:12 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship
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Benoit,

As the minutes from the last meeting note, I actually couldn't always tell =
when a dependency relationship applies vs. other types of relationship in t=
he document. That was one of my main criticisms of the relationship concept=
 vs. the wiring topology which doesn't have such ambiguities. The same sect=
ion of the minutes have some more points which I will check against the new=
 version of the document.

Best,

Rolf


NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London =
W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Benoit Claise
> Sent: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 15:28
> To: eman mailing list
> Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Here is what the current terminology draft contains:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dependency Relationship
>=20
>=20
> An Energy Object may be a component of or rely completely upon another
> Energy Object to operate and is referred to as a Dependency
> Relationship.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Example: A Switch chassis with multiple line cards.
>=20
>=20
> The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency
> relationship".
>=20
> Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the
> ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship"
> (typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as
> expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this
> relationship type.
>=20
> Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)


From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Tue Feb 28 00:48:10 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 08:47:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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This was referring to Benoit's more general comment saying "Personally, I'm=
 in favor of putting more intelligence in the devices" not to the domain ob=
ject.=20

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London =
W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> university.de]
> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012 09:37
> To: Rolf Winter
> Cc: Benoit Claise; Juergen Quittek; eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:28:04AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:
>=20
> > We should at least make things that make devices more intelligent
> > optional to implement since we want to support really, really simple
> > devices like devices that can only report the state they are in.
>=20
> Frankly, I fail to see intelligence here. This seems to be a post-it
> object that might help coordinate management applications. If a device
> is supposed to be doing anything intelligent with this object's value,
> then the elements of procedure need to be defined somewhere I think.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de  Tue Feb 28 00:57:57 2012
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To: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:47:53AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:

> This was referring to Benoit's more general comment saying
> "Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the
> devices" not to the domain object.

OK, but even then, interoperable 'intelligence' requires the
definition of elements of procedure. Objects that do implementation
specific magic are of limited value for interoperability.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu  Tue Feb 28 00:59:29 2012
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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I couldn't agree more. That in effect was one of my main concerns with "imp=
ortance".

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London =
W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> university.de]
> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012 09:58
> To: Rolf Winter
> Cc: Benoit Claise; Juergen Quittek; eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:47:53AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:
>=20
> > This was referring to Benoit's more general comment saying
> > "Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the
> devices"
> > not to the domain object.
>=20
> OK, but even then, interoperable 'intelligence' requires the definition
> of elements of procedure. Objects that do implementation specific magic
> are of limited value for interoperability.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@neclab.eu>
To: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:34:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Feb 28 03:18:50 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:04:34 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship
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Hi Rolf,
> Benoit,
>
> As the minutes from the last meeting note, I actually couldn't always tell when a dependency relationship applies vs. other types of relationship in the document.
You're right. The dependency relationship was inserted before we based 
the [EMAN-AWARE] on the ENTITY-MIB entPhysicalIndex.
So this removal should go in the direction of simplification.
> That was one of my main criticisms of the relationship concept vs. the wiring topology which doesn't have such ambiguities. The same section of the minutes have some more points which I will check against the new version of the document.
Sure.
Your comment was:

    [RW] - Wasn't always clear what relationship to choose.  For example, one of
    the examples it talks about dependency and he expected that to be the
    relationship but then when he looked it wasn't there.  So it is not clear
    cut.  Parent/child isn't clearly defined.  Sometimes the framework is very
    specific and may be introducing requirements.  The requirements should in the
    requirements document.  Also the framework was detailed about some aspect of
    the battery relationships when it is an open issue in the battery MIB.

And this is to address one point in there, that this email thread was 
created.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-FMWK)
>
> Best,
>
> Rolf
>
>
> NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Benoit Claise
>> Sent: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 15:28
>> To: eman mailing list
>> Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Here is what the current terminology draft contains:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dependency Relationship
>>
>>
>> An Energy Object may be a component of or rely completely upon another
>> Energy Object to operate and is referred to as a Dependency
>> Relationship.
>>
>>
>>
>> Example: A Switch chassis with multiple line cards.
>>
>>
>> The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency
>> relationship".
>>
>> Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the
>> ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship"
>> (typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as
>> expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this
>> relationship type.
>>
>> Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)
>
>


--------------020509060606080603090807
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Hi Rolf,<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C88F@DAPHNIS.office.hd"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Benoit,

As the minutes from the last meeting note, I actually couldn't always tell when a dependency relationship applies vs. other types of relationship in the document. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    You're right. The dependency relationship was inserted before we
    based the [EMAN-AWARE] on the ENTITY-MIB entPhysicalIndex.<br>
    So this removal should go in the direction of simplification.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C88F@DAPHNIS.office.hd"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">That was one of my main criticisms of the relationship concept vs. the wiring topology which doesn't have such ambiguities. The same section of the minutes have some more points which I will check against the new version of the document.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Sure. <br>
    Your comment was:<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre>[RW] - Wasn't always clear what relationship to choose.  For example, one of 
the examples it talks about dependency and he expected that to be the 
relationship but then when he looked it wasn't there.  So it is not clear 
cut.  Parent/child isn't clearly defined.  Sometimes the framework is very 
specific and may be introducing requirements.  The requirements should in the
requirements document.  Also the framework was detailed about some aspect of 
the battery relationships when it is an open issue in the battery MIB.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    And this is to address one point in there, that this email thread
    was created.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN-FMWK)<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C88F@DAPHNIS.office.hd"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

Best,

Rolf


NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise
Sent: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 15:28
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: Dependency Relationship

Dear all,

Here is what the current terminology draft contains:



Dependency Relationship


An Energy Object may be a component of or rely completely upon another
Energy Object to operate and is referred to as a Dependency
Relationship.



Example: A Switch chassis with multiple line cards.


The [EMAN-FMWK] also contains a reference to this "dependency
relationship".

Since every Energy Object must have UUID, and since we can use the
ENTITY-MIB containment tree for this "dependency relationship"
(typically to know that this line card belong to this switch, as
expressed in the example), I believe that we don't need this
relationship type.

Please let me know otherwise, otherwise, consider it removed.

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for EMAN-FMWK)
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020509060606080603090807--

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In-Reply-To: <EDCAE188ADBDC045AB6E7BC54D532C8A10BBC4C1@xmb-sjc-21b.amer.cisco.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of Energy Objects with the"keywords"
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Dear all,

So I removed the virtual grouping of Energy Objects with the"keywords"

And I put a new section


        Energy Objects Relationship Extensions

    As currently specified, this framework for Energy Management, is
    based on four Energy Objects Relationships: Aggregation
    Relationship, Metering Relationship, Power Source Relationship, and
    Proxy Relationship.

    This framework is defined with possible extension of new Energy
    Objects Relationships in mind. For example, a Power Distribution
    Unit (PDU) that allows physical entities like outlets to be "ganged"
    together as a logical entity for simplified management purposes,
    could be modeled with a future extension based on "gang
    relationship", whose semantic would specify the Energy Objects grouping.


Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN framework)
>
> I presented this in Quebec. I think adding a new "ganged relationship" 
> between energy objects is the best approach. With the framework we can 
> model any new relationship type.
>
> So we've got no requirements for this as yet but it can surely be added.
>
> Jp
>
> *From:*eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2012 6:47 AM
> *To:* eman mailing list
> *Subject:* [eman] EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of Energy Objects with 
> the"keywords"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Regarding the following section in the [EMAN-FMWK]
>
> Another keyword use case is the virtual grouping of Energy Objects. 
> [B.C.1] <#_msocom_1>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [B.C.1] <#_msoanchor_1>
>


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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    So I removed the virtual grouping of Energy Objects with
    the"keywords"<br>
    <br>
    And I put a new section<br>
    <br>
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            style="mso-list:Ignore"></span></span>Energy Objects
        Relationship Extensions <o:p></o:p></h2>
      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:22.5pt">As currently
        specified, this framework
        for Energy Management, is based on four Energy Objects
        Relationships: Aggregation
        Relationship, Metering Relationship, Power Source Relationship,
        and Proxy Relationship.
        <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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        extension of new Energy Objects Relationships in mind. <span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>For example, a Power
        Distribution Unit (PDU) that
        allows physical entities like outlets to be "ganged" together as
        a
        logical entity for simplified management purposes, could be
        modeled with a
        future extension based on "gang relationship", whose semantic
        would specify
        the Energy Objects grouping.<o:p></o:p></p>
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    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the EMAN framework)<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:EDCAE188ADBDC045AB6E7BC54D532C8A10BBC4C1@xmb-sjc-21b.amer.cisco.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            presented this in Quebec. I think adding a new &#8220;ganged
            relationship&#8221; between energy objects is the best approach.
            With the framework we can model any new relationship type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So
            we&#8217;ve got no requirements for this as yet but it can surely
            be added.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On
                  Behalf Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 6:47 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> [eman] EMAN-FMWK: virtual grouping of
                Energy Objects with the"keywords"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear all,<br>
          <br>
          Regarding the following section in the [EMAN-FMWK]<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:22.5pt"><a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
style="mso-comment-reference:&quot;B\.C\._1&quot;;mso-comment-date:20120221T1250">Another
            keyword use case is the virtual grouping of Energy Objects.&nbsp;
          </a><span class="MsoCommentReference"><!--[if !supportAnnotations]--><a
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="msocomanchor" id="_anchor_1"
              onmouseover="msoCommentShow('_anchor_1','_com_1')"
              onmouseout="msoCommentHide('_com_1')" href="#_msocom_1"
              language="JavaScript" name="_msoanchor_1">[B.C.1]</a><!--[endif]-->&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <div style="mso-element:comment-list"><!--[if !supportAnnotations]-->
        <hr class="msocomoff" align="left" size="1" width="33%"><!--[endif]-->
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                  class="msocomoff">[B.C.1]</a><!--[endif]--></span></p>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Mouli,
>
> Benoit,
>
> As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting,
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that 
> can't be done in the framework?
>
> There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in 
> the minutes)
>
> 1.Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal components 
> (based on the Entity MIB).
>
Yes, this was covered by 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/eman-0.pdf

A new section has been added


    4.2. Components and Containment Tree

The framework for Energy Management manages two different types of 
Energy Objects: an entire device and components within device

A typical example of a typical Energy Object is a switch. However, a 
port within the switch, which provides Power to one end point, might 
also a be an Energy Object if it meters the power provided. A second 
example is PC, which isis a typical Energy Object. However, the battery 
within the PC might be managed as an individual Energy Object as well.

Some more examples of Energy Objects components within a device: power 
supply within a router, an outlet within a smart PDU, etc...

In the [EMAN-AWARE-MIB], each Energy Object is managed with an unique 
value of the entPhysicalIndex index from the ENTITY-MIB [RFC4133].

The ENTITY-MIB [RFC4133] specifies the notion of physical containment 
tree, as:

"Each physical component may be modeled as 'contained' within

another physical component.A "containment-tree" is the conceptual 
sequence of entPhysicalIndex values that uniquely specifies the exact 
physical location of a physical component within the managed system.It 
is generated by 'following and recording' each 'entPhysicalContainedIn' 
instance 'up the tree towards the root', until a value of zero 
indicating no further containment is found."

RFC-EDITOR'S NOTE: not sure if this should be in [EMAN-FMWK], or in 
[EMAN-AWARE-MIB], or both.



Disclaimer: the text is certainly not perfect and should be improved. At 
this point in time, I try to close on the open issues and not to provide 
perfect text...


> 2.Framework allows -- flexible relations -  poweredBy, meteredBy, 
> ControledBy.
>
> There are scenarios -- in which all of these functions can be 
> performed by the same entity.
>
> In some important cases, there are different entities doing these 
> functions .
>

Mouli,
We had to address the point 1., you were right.
However, I'm confused about how your point 1. and 2. refer to the 
question "Is there something that can be done in the reference model 
that can't be done in the framework?"

Regards, Benoit.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mouli
>
> *From:*eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
> *To:* eman mailing list
> *Subject:* [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
>
> Dear all,
>
> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, 
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that 
> can't be done in the framework?
>
>     [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework
>     because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
>     inherently focuses on net energy flow.
>
> We would like to know if there are other things that this one 
> (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] 
> could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>
> [EMAN-FMWK] = 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the 
> official EMAN document
> [EMAN-REF] = 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>


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    Mouli,
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Benoit,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As
            mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">[BC] - Is there something that
            can be done in the reference model that can't be done in the
            framework? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There
            were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting &nbsp;(missed
            in the minutes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
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            style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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    </blockquote>
    Yes, this was covered by
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/eman-0.pdf">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/eman-0.pdf</a><br>
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    <h2 style="mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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        </span></span><!--[endif]-->Components and Containment Tree<o:p></o:p></h2>
    <p class="RFCText"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS
        Mincho&quot;">The
        framework for Energy Management manages two different types of
        Energy Objects: an
        entire device and components within device<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="RFCText"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS
        Mincho&quot;">A typical
        example of a typical Energy Object is a switch. <span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>However, a port within the
        switch, which
        provides Power to one end point, might also a be an Energy
        Object if it meters
        the power provided. <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>A
        second example is PC,
        which isis a typical Energy Object. <span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>However,
        the battery within the PC might be managed as an individual
        Energy Object as
        well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="RFCText"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS
        Mincho&quot;">Some more examples
        of Energy Objects components within a device: power supply
        within a router, <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>an
        outlet within a smart PDU, etc...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="RFCText"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS
        Mincho&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
    <p class="RFCText">In the [EMAN-AWARE-MIB], each Energy Object is
      managed with an
      unique value of the entPhysicalIndex index from the ENTITY-MIB
      [RFC4133]. <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
    <p class="RFCText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
    <p class="RFCText">The ENTITY-MIB [RFC4133] specifies the notion of
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      tree, as:<o:p></o:p></p>
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        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">"Each
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      458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
        style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">another
        physical
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        "containment-tree" is the conceptual sequence of
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        values that uniquely specifies the exact physical location of a
        physical
        component within the managed system.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It
        is generated by 'following and recording' each
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    <p class="RFCText">RFC-EDITOR'S NOTE: not sure if this should be in
      [EMAN-FMWK],
      or in [EMAN-AWARE-MIB], or both.<o:p></o:p></p>
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    <br>
    Disclaimer: the text is certainly not perfect and should be
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    and not to provide perfect text...<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;color:windowtext"></span>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9741@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Framework
            allows &#8211; flexible relations -&nbsp; poweredBy, meteredBy,
            ControledBy.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There
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            performed by the same entity. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
            some important cases, there are different entities doing
            these functions . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Mouli, <br>
    We had to address the point 1., you were right. <br>
    However, I'm confused about how your point 1. and 2. refer to the
    question "<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;color:windowtext">Is there something that can be done in
      the reference model that can't be done in the framework?"</span><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9741@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Mouli
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On
                  Behalf Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]:
                [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<br>
          <br>
          From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[BC] - Is there something that can be done
          in the reference model that can't be done in the framework? <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is
            problematic in the framework because of the parent/child
            relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on net
            energy flow.<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">We would like
          to know if there are other things that this one (discussed in
          my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do
          while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
          <br>
          [EMAN-FMWK] = <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>,
          the official EMAN document<br>
          [EMAN-REF] = <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br>
          <br>
          Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:18:04 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Bruce, Brad,

Can we please close this issue.

Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor for  the EMAN-FMWK)
> Hi Bruce,
>
> My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit reference 
> point or ratio with three additional attributes are informational for 
> the table: Configuration, UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.
>
> Which attributes are you having an issue with?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brad
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com âŸ m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall 
> <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:28:25 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>, 
> "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org 
> <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com 
> <mailto:brads@coraid.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Bruce,
>
>     Your statement here is incorrect.  If you carefully review the
>     details, you will see that the majority of these attributes
>     incorporate a reference point.  For example, total harmonic
>     distortion is a ratio of the distortion relative to the reference
>     frequency.  Or consider, power factor which is a ratio of the real
>     power to the apparent power, where real power is the reference point.
>
>
> Below I have extracted the 24 entries in draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
> that are labeled "PwrQuality".  The interested reader can count how 
> many of
> these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting context.
>
> --Bruce
>
>         powerACPwrQualityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                              eoACPwrQualityConfiguration,
>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage,
>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent,
>                              eoACPwrQualityFrequency,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
>                              eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres,
>                              eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage
>         powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance
>         powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage ,
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage,
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent
>         powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage,
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent,
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage
>
>
>     Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power (wasted energy)
>     are 'power quality' characteristics.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Brad
>
>     Brad Schoening
>     e: brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com> âŸ m:917-304-7190
>     <tel:917-304-7190>
>
>
>     Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall
>     <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>
>
>     From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>
>     Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600
>     To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
>     Cc: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>>,
>     "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org
>     <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
>
>     Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
>     It seems to me that the definition of power quality
>     implies a reference point for evaluating quality
>     that is absent in the EMAN context - making it
>     unsuitable to reference.
>     There is actually no need to reference the term
>     "power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore
>     no need to have a definition for it.
>     While it would be best to not use the term at all in
>     the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power
>     characteristics would likely not mislead people, but
>     this would not require a definition.
>     The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"
>     in many of the entries.  These can simply be changed
>     to "Power".
>     Problem solved.
>     --Bruce
>
>     On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com
>     <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Brad,
>
>>         Benoit,
>>
>>         I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning
>>         of 'power quality' and put this issue to rest.
>         I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.
>
>         Regards, Benoit.
>
>>
>>         Brad Schoening
>>         e: brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>
>>         âŸ m:917-304-7190 <tel:917-304-7190>
>>
>>
>>         Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall
>>         <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>>
>>
>>         From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com
>>         <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
>>         Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
>>         To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>>
>>         Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov
>>         <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>, "eman@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
>>         Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>>         Dear all,
>>
>>         I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem
>>         description (if any), as there is some confusion.
>>         According to this email thread, the power quality definition
>>         is fine and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this
>>         definition.
>>
>>         Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring
>>         MIB module contains at the same time:
>>         - "power quality" variables
>>         - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a
>>         set of reference technical parameters"? Example: current
>>         Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and
>>         the [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>>
>>         Please let us know.
>>
>>         Regards, Benoit.
>>>         Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>>         I don't understand the context for choosing those three
>>>         categories., 1, 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These
>>>         categories seem pretty much ad hoc .
>>>
>>>         In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting
>>>         IEC 60050:
>>>
>>>         http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>>
>>>
>>>           Power Quality
>>>
>>>                Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>>
>>>                frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>>>
>>>                system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>>>
>>>                parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>>
>>>                relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>>
>>>                supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>>>
>>>                connected to that electric power system.
>>>
>>>                Reference: [IEC60050
>>>         <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>]
>>>
>>>
>>>         This seems both adequate and clear.
>>>
>>>         The EMAN requirements draft states:
>>>
>>>             Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the
>>>             actual frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)
>>>             of voltage and current, the impedance of an AC phase or
>>>             of the DC Supply.
>>>
>>>
>>>         That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>>>
>>>
>>>         The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but
>>>         many are redundant due to separate tables for single-phase,
>>>         delta-phase, and wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't
>>>         obviously a power quality characteristic.
>>>
>>>
>>>                  +------------------+--------------------+
>>>
>>>                  |         ACQuality                     |
>>>
>>>                  |---------------------------------------|
>>>
>>>                  | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>>>
>>>                  | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>>>
>>>                  | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>>>
>>>                  | frequency    : long                   |
>>>
>>>                  | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>>>
>>>                  | accuracy  : int                       |
>>>
>>>                  | totalActivePower  : long              |
>>>
>>>                  | totalReactivePower : long             |
>>>
>>>                  | totalApparentPower : long             |
>>>
>>>                  | totalPowerFactor : long
>>>
>>>                  +---------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>                  +------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>                  |         ACPhase                    |
>>>
>>>                  |------------------------------------|
>>>
>>>                  | phaseIndex : long                  |
>>>
>>>                  | avgCurrent : long                  |
>>>
>>>                  | activePower : long                 |
>>>
>>>                  | reactivePower : long               |
>>>
>>>                  | apparentPower : long               |
>>>
>>>                  | powerFactor : long                 |
>>>
>>>                  +------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>                  +-------------------------------+---+
>>>
>>>                  |        DelPhase                   |
>>>
>>>                  |-----------------------------------|
>>>
>>>                  |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>>>
>>>                  |thdVoltage : long                  |
>>>
>>>                  |thdCurrent : long                  |
>>>
>>>                  +-----------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>                  +------------------+-----------+
>>>
>>>                  |        WYEPhase              |
>>>
>>>                  |------------------------------|
>>>
>>>                  |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>>>
>>>                  |thdCurrent : long             |
>>>
>>>                  |thdVoltage : long             |
>>>
>>>                  +------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>         Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the
>>>         meeting. Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply close
>>>         this issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         e: brads@coraid.com <mailto:brads@coraid.com>
>>>         âŸ m:917-304-7190 <tel:917-304-7190>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall
>>>         <http://www.coraid.com/> Redefining Storage Economics
>>>
>>>
>>>         From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov <mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov>>
>>>         Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
>>>         To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>>
>>>         Cc: "eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>" <eman@ietf.org
>>>         <mailto:eman@ietf.org>>
>>>         Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>
>>>         Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power
>>>         Quality definition is 2.
>>>         Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we
>>>         use it, I don't
>>>         think using it works.
>>>
>>>         The Requirements draft
>>>         (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
>>>         uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful
>>>         attributes of power.
>>>
>>>         The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to
>>>         everything other than
>>>         Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning
>>>         with voltage
>>>         and current.
>>>
>>>         The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics". 
>>>         The requirements
>>>         refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are
>>>         clear enough on their
>>>         own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart
>>>         highly specific information.
>>>
>>>         So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define
>>>         "power quality", and so not
>>>         use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic
>>>         term, along with
>>>         "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar
>>>         terms.
>>>
>>>         Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term
>>>         that matches how
>>>         we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a
>>>         catchall phrase to
>>>         cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It
>>>         is a "Other" or "Miscellaneous"
>>>         grouping.
>>>
>>>         This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts
>>>         except possibly the Monitoring MIB
>>>         draft
>>>         (http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
>>>         It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values. 
>>>         Is it a problem if Power Quality
>>>         is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to
>>>         define it as we use it - all
>>>         characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some
>>>         term like 'additional',
>>>         'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>>>
>>>         --Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise
>>>         <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Dear all,
>>>
>>>             From the meeting minutes
>>>             (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>>
>>>                 Three categories of power quality:
>>>                 1. Nominal power supply
>>>                 2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>>>                 3. Power usage
>>>
>>>                 [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power
>>>                 quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering
>>>                 would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than
>>>                 power quality.
>>>
>>>                 [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power
>>>                 Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>
>>>             So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>>>             http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>>             covers correctly "2.", right?
>>>             So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>>
>>>             At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>>
>>>             Regards, Benoit.
>>>
>>>
>>>>             I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>>>             implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>>>
>>>>             My reading of the Power Quality definition below is
>>>>             that it is
>>>>             a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>>>             usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>>>             Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>>>             and independent of any usage context.
>>>>             For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>>>             measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>>>             there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to
>>>>             others.
>>>>
>>>>             I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there
>>>>             is anything
>>>>             suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and
>>>>             Characteristics do
>>>>             mean different things.
>>>>
>>>>             --Bruce
>>>>
>>>>             On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello
>>>>             (jparello) <jparello@cisco.com
>>>>             <mailto:jparello@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 Hi,
>>>>
>>>>                 I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it
>>>>                 looks as if there was a
>>>>                 request to change the term "power quality" to
>>>>                 "power characteristics"
>>>>
>>>>                 I was about to make the change but saw that I am
>>>>                 using the term "power
>>>>                 quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there
>>>>                 is no such term as
>>>>                 "power characteristics"
>>>>
>>>>                 The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>>>                 http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0
>>>>                 <http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=617-01-0>
>>>>                 5
>>>>
>>>>                 """
>>>>                 Power Quality
>>>>                 Characteristics of the electric current, voltage
>>>>                 and frequencies at a
>>>>                 given point in an electric power system, evaluated
>>>>                 against a set of
>>>>                 reference technical parameters. These parameters
>>>>                 might, in some cases,
>>>>                 relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>>>                 supplied in an electric
>>>>                 power system and the loads connected to that
>>>>                 electric power system.
>>>>                 """
>>>>
>>>>                 I'm reluctant to change that to power
>>>>                 characteristics as the method of
>>>>                 definition is that we take from a source directly
>>>>                 at first. I see no
>>>>                 source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>>
>>>>                 Since I can't find a source for power
>>>>                 characteristics, a quick search on
>>>>                 how "power characteristics" is used shows that it
>>>>                 refers more times on
>>>>                 how a device uses power.
>>>>
>>>>                 So to contrast  "power quality" describes the
>>>>                 electrical characteristics
>>>>                 (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics"
>>>>                 however  more commonly
>>>>                 refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot
>>>>                 up and the 50W at a
>>>>                 steady state over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 So while the minutes state this...
>>>>                 """
>>>>                 [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power
>>>>                 Characteristics instead of
>>>>                 Power
>>>>                 Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>
>>>>                 [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.
>>>>                  Notes no objections.
>>>>
>>>>                 Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>>>                 - Power State Set
>>>>                 - Energy Object Relationship
>>>>
>>>>                 [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on
>>>>                 the list.
>>>>                 """
>>>>
>>>>                 Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and
>>>>                 "power
>>>>                 characteristics" are two distinct terms and not
>>>>                  interchangeable.
>>>>
>>>>                 So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>>
>>>>                 I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by
>>>>                 IEC60050 and if needed
>>>>                 I can add "power characteristics" as described
>>>>                 above if someone has a
>>>>                 reference. I strongly propose not to use them
>>>>                 interchangeably.
>>>>
>>>>                 Feedback?
>>>>                 Jp
>>>>
>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>                 eman mailing list
>>>>                 eman@ietf.org <mailto:eman@ietf.org>
>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             -- 
>>>>             *Bruce Nordman*
>>>>             Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>             eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>>>>             BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>>>>             510-486-7089 <tel:510-486-7089>
>>>>             m: 510-501-7943 <tel:510-501-7943>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>             eman mailing list
>>>>             eman@ietf.org  <mailto:eman@ietf.org>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         -- 
>>>         *Bruce Nordman*
>>>         Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>         eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>>>         BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>>>         510-486-7089 <tel:510-486-7089>
>>>         m: 510-501-7943 <tel:510-501-7943>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     *Bruce Nordman*
>     Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>     eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
>     BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
>     510-486-7089 <tel:510-486-7089>
>     m: 510-501-7943 <tel:510-501-7943>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman <http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman>
> BNordman@LBL.gov <mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov>
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>


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    Bruce, Brad,<br>
    <br>
    Can we please close this issue.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor forÂ  the EMAN-FMWK)<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB6A9F4A.1EF65%25brads@coraid.com" type="cite">
      <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
        <div>
          <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit
            reference point or ratio with three additional attributes
            are informational for the table: Configuration,
            UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Which attributes are you having an issue with?</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Regards,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Brad</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Brad Schoening</span><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                  Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br>
                </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                  style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><span
                    class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                      Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:Â <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span class="Apple-style-span"
                      style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">âŸ</span><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Â m:</span><span
                      class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
                      Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Â 917-304-7190</span></span></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
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                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
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                </span></p>
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                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="color: blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration:
                  none; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.coraid.com/" style="color: blue;
                    text-decoration: underline; "><img
                      id="Picture_x0020_1"
                      src="cid:part1.04020604.04010703@cisco.com"
                      alt="Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                      type="image/png" border="0" height="46" width="95"></a></span><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; ">Â Redefining Storage Economics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
                0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
                font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span
                  style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; text-align:
          left; color: black; border-bottom-width: medium;
          border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial;
          border-left-width: medium; border-left-style: none;
          border-left-color: initial; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left:
          0in; padding-right: 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);
          border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid;
          border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none;
          border-right-color: initial; padding-top: 3pt; "><span
            style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 22 Feb 2012
          12:28:25 -0600<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
          "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad
          Schoening <span dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">&lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
            margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
            margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
            border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style:
            solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">
            <div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Your statement here is incorrect. Â If you
                    carefully review the details, you will see that the
                    majority of these attributes incorporate a reference
                    point. Â For example, total harmonic distortion is a
                    ratio of the distortion relative to the reference
                    frequency. Â Or consider, power factor which is a
                    ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where
                    real power is the reference point.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
            Below I have extracted the 24 entries in
            draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05 <br>
            that are labeled "PwrQuality".Â  The interested reader can
            count how many of<br>
            these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting
            context.<br>
            <br>
            --Bruce<br>
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  powerACPwrQualityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP<br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityConfiguration, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityFrequency, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,Â Â Â Â Â  <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedanceÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage , <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent, <br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage <br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
            margin-top: 0pt; margin-right: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;
            margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
            border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204,
            204); padding-left: 1ex; ">
            <div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power
                    (wasted energy) are 'power quality' characteristics.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Regards,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Brad</div>
                  <div class="im">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                            style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad
                            Schoening</span><span
                            style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                          </span><span
                            style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span
                                style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:Â <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:brads@coraid.com"
                                  target="_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">âŸ</span><span
                                style="font-size:12px">Â m:</span><span
                                style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Â <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="tel:917-304-7190"
                                  value="+19173047190" target="_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                            style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                          </span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://www.coraid.com/"
                              style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
                              target="_blank"><img
                                moz-do-not-send="true" src=""
                                alt="Description:
                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                                type="image/png" border="0" height="46"
                                width="95"></a></span><span
                            style="font-size:9pt">Â Redefining Storage
                            Economics</span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                            style="font-size:9pt">Â </span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <span>
                <div style="border-right:medium
                  none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
                  none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt
                  solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none"><span
                    style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce
                  Nordman &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target="_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 20
                  Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Brad
                  Schoening &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:brads@coraid.com" target="_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;,
                  "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                    target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                    target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5"><br>
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>
                      Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power
                      Characteristics<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    It seems to me that the definition of power quality<br>
                    implies a reference point for evaluating quality<br>
                    that is absent in the EMAN context - making it<br>
                    unsuitable to reference.<br>
                    There is actually no need to reference the term<br>
                    "power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore<br>
                    no need to have a definition for it.<br>
                    While it would be best to not use the term at all in<br>
                    the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of
                    power <br>
                    characteristics would likely not mislead people, but<br>
                    this would not require a definition.<br>
                    The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"<br>
                    in many of the entries.Â  These can simply be changed<br>
                    to "Power".<br>
                    Problem solved.<br>
                    --Bruce<br>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <span
                        dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                          target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi Brad,
                          <div><br>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>Benoit,</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>I hope that the terminology draft
                                    has clarified the meaning of 'power
                                    quality' and put this issue to
                                    rest.Â  <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue
                          close.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regards, Benoit.
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                                          </span><span
                                            style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span
                                                style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:Â <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brads@coraid.com" target="_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">âŸ</span><span
                                                style="font-size:12px">Â m:</span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:917-304-7190" value="+19173047190" target="_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                                          </span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.coraid.com/"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><img
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                src="" alt="Description:
                                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                                                type="image/png"
                                                border="0" height="46"
                                                width="95"></a></span><span
                                            style="font-size:9pt">Â Redefining
                                            Storage Economics</span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                                            style="font-size:9pt">Â </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <span>
                                  <div style="border-right:medium
                                    none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
                                    none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df
                                    1pt
                                    solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium
                                    none"><span style="font-weight:bold">From:
                                    </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                      target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style="font-weight:bold">Date:
                                    </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21
                                    -0600<br>
                                    <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>
                                    Brad Schoening &lt;<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:brads@coraid.com"
                                      target="_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>
                                    Bruce Nordman &lt;<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov"
                                      target="_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;,

                                    "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                                      target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>"
                                    &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                                      target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:
                                    </span> Re: [eman] Power Quality
                                    versus Power Characteristics<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> Dear all,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      I would like appreciate if someone
                                      could rephrase the problem
                                      description (if any), as there is
                                      some confusion.<br>
                                      According to this email thread,
                                      the power quality definition is
                                      fine and the EMAN requirements
                                      draft is in line with this
                                      definition.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Is the problem that the
                                      eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN
                                      monitoring MIB module contains at
                                      the same time:<br>
                                      - "power quality" variables<br>
                                      - non "power quality" variables,
                                      i.e not "evaluated against a set
                                      of reference technical
                                      parameters"? Example: current<br>
                                      Hence the table name should NOT
                                      contain "Power Quality" and the
                                      [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to
                                      be updated.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Please let us know.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Regards, Benoit.<br>
                                      <span
                                        style="font-family:Helvetica"></span>
                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Hi
                                              Bruce,</div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
                                              don't understand the
                                              context for choosing those
                                              three categories., 1, 2
                                              &amp; 3 or how they were
                                              derived? Â These categories
                                              seem pretty much ad hoc .</div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:Courier"><span
                                                  style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p
                                                    style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">In

                                                    contrast, our EMAN
                                                    Terminology states,
                                                    directly quoting IEC
                                                    60050:</p>
                                                </span><span
                                                  style="font-family:Courier;font-size:12px"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                    href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04"
                                                    target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a></span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica">
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â Power
                                                    Quality</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal
                                                    Courier;min-height:14px">Â 
                                                    Â  Â </p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â Characteristics
                                                    of the electric
                                                    current, voltage and</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â frequencies at a
                                                    given point in an
                                                    electric power</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â system,
                                                    evaluated against a
                                                    set of reference
                                                    technical</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â parameters.
                                                    These parameters
                                                    might, in some
                                                    cases,</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â relate to the
                                                    compatibility
                                                    between electricity</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â supplied in an
                                                    electric power
                                                    system and the loads</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â Â connected to
                                                    that electric power
                                                    system.</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal
                                                    Courier;min-height:14px">Â 
                                                    Â  Â </p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier">Â Â 
                                                    Â  Â  Reference: [<a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050"
                                                      target="_blank"><span
style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(22,54,238)">IEC60050</span></a>]</p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="font-size:14px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p
                                                    style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal
                                                    normal normal
                                                    12px/normal Courier"><span
style="font-family:Calibri"><font size="3">This seems both adequate and
                                                        clear.Â </font></span></p>
                                                  <span
                                                    style="font-family:Calibri"></span></span></span></div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The

                                              EMAN requirements draft
                                              states:</div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
                                              style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
                                              <blockquote
                                                style="margin:0 0 0
                                                40px;border:none;padding:0px">
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Power quality
                                                  parameters include the
                                                  actualÂ voltage, the
                                                  actual frequency, the
                                                  Total Harmonic
                                                  Distortion (THD)
                                                  ofÂ voltage and
                                                  current, the impedance
                                                  of an AC phase or of
                                                  the DCÂ Supply.</p>
                                              </blockquote>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">That also seems
                                                perfectly fine and
                                                clear.</p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">The framework
                                                draft lists the
                                                following 22 attributes,
                                                but many are redundant
                                                due to separate tables
                                                for single-phase,
                                                delta-phase, and
                                                wye-phase. Â Of these,
                                                only current isn't
                                                obviously a power
                                                quality characteristic.Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â +------------------+--------------------+
                                                Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  ACQuality Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                |---------------------------------------|
                                                Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |
                                                acConfiguration : enum
                                                {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                avgVoltage Â  : long Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                avgCurrent Â  : long Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                frequencyÂ  Â  : long Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                unitMultiplierÂ  : int Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                accuracyÂ  : int Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                totalActivePowerÂ  :
                                                longÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                totalReactivePower :
                                                long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                totalApparentPower :
                                                long Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                totalPowerFactor : long
                                                Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â +---------------------------------------+</p>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â +------------------------------------+Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  ACPhaseÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                |------------------------------------|Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                phaseIndex : longÂ  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                avgCurrent : longÂ  Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                activePower : long Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                reactivePower : long Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                apparentPower : long Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â  |
                                                powerFactor : long Â  Â  Â 
                                                Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                              <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                Courier">Â Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                +------------------------------------+Â </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span></p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â +-------------------------------+---+
                                                  Â  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  DelPhase Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |-----------------------------------|Â 
                                                  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |phaseToNextPhaseVoltageÂ 
                                                  : longÂ  Â  |Â  Â  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |thdVoltage : longÂ  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |thdCurrent : longÂ  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  | Â  Â  Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â +-----------------------------------+</p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier"><br>
                                                </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â +------------------+-----------+Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â  Â |Â  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  WYEPhaseÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |------------------------------|Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |phaseToNeutralVoltage
                                                  : longÂ  |Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |thdCurrent : long Â 
                                                  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â |thdVoltage : long Â 
                                                  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  |Â </p>
                                                <p style="margin:0px 0px
                                                  0px 0px;font:12.0px
                                                  Courier">Â  Â  Â  Â 
                                                  Â +------------------------------+Â </p>
                                                <span
                                                  style="font-family:Courier;font-size:12px">Â </span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style="margin:0px
                                                    0px 0px
                                                    0px;font:12.0px
                                                    Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style="margin:0px
                                                    0px 0px
                                                    0px;font:12.0px
                                                    Courier">Reviewing
                                                    this, I can't
                                                    understand the issue
                                                    here from the
                                                    meeting. Can we
                                                    perhaps get more
                                                    clarity or simply
                                                    close this issue?</p>
                                                </span><span
                                                  style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style="margin:0px
                                                    0px 0px
                                                    0px;font:12.0px
                                                    Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style="margin:0px
                                                    0px 0px
                                                    0px;font:12.0px
                                                    Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                </span><span
                                                  style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:Â <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brads@coraid.com" target="_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                                                </span><span
                                                  style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">âŸ</span><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  12px; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif; ">Â m:</span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:917-304-7190" value="+19173047190" target="_blank">917-304-7190</a></span>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.coraid.com/"
                                                      style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
                                                      target="_blank"><img
moz-do-not-send="true" src="" alt="Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall"
                                                        type="image/png"
                                                        border="0"
                                                        height="46"
                                                        width="95"></a></span><span
style="font-size:9pt">Â Redefining Storage Economics</span></p>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Â </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <div
                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <span style="font-size: 14px;
                                          font-family: Calibri,
                                          sans-serif; ">
                                          <div
                                            style="border-right:medium
                                            none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
                                            none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df
                                            1pt
                                            solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium
                                            none"><span
                                              style="font-weight:bold">From:

                                            </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov"
                                              target="_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                                            <span
                                              style="font-weight:bold">Date:
                                            </span> Tue, 31 Jan 2012
                                            18:05:50 -0600<br>
                                            <span
                                              style="font-weight:bold">To:
                                            </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                              target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                            <span
                                              style="font-weight:bold">Cc:
                                            </span> "<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                                              target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>"
                                            &lt;<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:eman@ietf.org"
                                              target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                            <span
                                              style="font-weight:bold">Subject:
                                            </span> Re: [eman] Power
                                            Quality versus Power
                                            Characteristics<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          Per Benoit's email below, I
                                          agree that the current Power
                                          Quality definition is 2.<br>
                                          Since Power Quality has a
                                          specific meaning other than
                                          how we use it, I don't<br>
                                          think using it works.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The Requirements draft (<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt"
                                            target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                                          <br>
                                          uses Power Quality to refer to
                                          a collection of useful
                                          attributes of power.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework draft uses Power
                                          Quality to refer to everything
                                          other than<br>
                                          Power, Energy, and Demand.Â  PQ
                                          groups 22 values beginning
                                          with voltage<br>
                                          and current.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework uses the phrase
                                          "electrical characteristics".Â 
                                          The requirements<br>
                                          refers to "qualitative
                                          properties".Â  These generic
                                          terms are clear enough on
                                          their<br>
                                          own to not require definition,
                                          and are not trying to impart
                                          highly specific information.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          So, I think the answer to our
                                          problem is to not define
                                          "power quality", and so not<br>
                                          use it to have specific
                                          meaning.Â  We can use it as a
                                          generic term, along with<br>
                                          "characteristics",
                                          "properties", "measurements",
                                          or similar terms.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Going through the IEEE
                                          Dictionary, there is no
                                          defined term that matches how<br>
                                          we use Power Quality.Â  This is
                                          because we are using it as a
                                          catchall phrase to<br>
                                          cover all metrics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.Â  It
                                          is a "Other" or
                                          "Miscellaneous"<br>
                                          grouping.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          This seems a very workable
                                          solution for all the drafts
                                          except possibly the Monitoring
                                          MIB<br>
                                          draft (<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt"
                                            target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>
                                          It defines a powerQualityMIB
                                          to hold these various values.Â 
                                          Is it a problem if Power
                                          Quality<br>
                                          is not defined?Â  If we need a
                                          term, then it is simplest to
                                          define it as we use it - all<br>
                                          characteristics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.Â 
                                          Some term like 'additional',<br>
                                          'extra', 'optional',
                                          'detailed', or such would be
                                          clear.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          --Bruce<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div class="gmail_quote">On
                                            Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                                            AM, Benoit Claise <span
                                              dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                                target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <blockquote
                                              class="gmail_quote"
                                              style="margin:0 0 0
                                              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                              solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                                text="#000000"> Dear
                                                all,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                From the meeting minutes
                                                (<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt"
                                                  target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                                                <blockquote>
                                                  <pre>Three categories of power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power 
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering 
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than 
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power 
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                So the current
                                                definition of "Power
                                                Quality" in <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04"
                                                  target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a>
                                                covers correctly "2.",
                                                right?<br>
                                                So, is Power
                                                Characteristics "1.",
                                                "2.", and "3."?<br>
                                                <br>
                                                At the end, I'm not sure
                                                which problem we try to
                                                solve...<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Regards, Benoit.
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <blockquote
                                                      type="cite">I am
                                                      mindful that
                                                      whatever we
                                                      decide, it doesn't
                                                      change the<br>
                                                      implementation of
                                                      EMAN, but you make
                                                      some good points.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      My reading of the
                                                      Power Quality
                                                      definition below
                                                      is that it is<br>
                                                      a judgment of
                                                      suitability of
                                                      some power with
                                                      respect to its<br>
                                                      usage context, so
                                                      is a value
                                                      judgment.<br>
                                                      Power
                                                      Characteristics
                                                      was intended to
                                                      not be judgmental,<br>
                                                      and independent of
                                                      any usage context.<br>
                                                      For something like
                                                      voltage, EMAN is
                                                      just reporting
                                                      what it<br>
                                                      measures.Â  From
                                                      what we know from
                                                      an EMAN
                                                      perspective,<br>
                                                      there is no
                                                      knowledge of what
                                                      values are
                                                      preferred to
                                                      others.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      I don't have my
                                                      IEEE Dictionary
                                                      handy to see if
                                                      there is anything<br>
                                                      suitable there.Â  I
                                                      do agree that
                                                      Quality and
                                                      Characteristics do<br>
                                                      mean different
                                                      things.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      --Bruce<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <div
                                                        class="gmail_quote">On
                                                        Tue, Jan 24,
                                                        2012 at 9:38 AM,
                                                        John Parello
                                                        (jparello) <span
                                                          dir="ltr">&lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jparello@cisco.com" target="_blank">jparello@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                                        wrote:<br>
                                                        <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          Hi,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I'm looking at
                                                          the minutes
                                                          from IETF-82
                                                          and it looks
                                                          as if there
                                                          was a<br>
                                                          request to
                                                          change the
                                                          term "power
                                                          quality" to
                                                          "power
                                                          characteristics"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I was about to
                                                          make the
                                                          change but saw
                                                          that I am
                                                          using the term
                                                          "power<br>
                                                          quality" as
                                                          directly
                                                          defined by IEC
                                                          60050 and
                                                          there is no
                                                          such term as<br>
                                                          "power
                                                          characteristics"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          The definition
                                                          from IEC60050
                                                          is:<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0"
target="_blank">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=617-01-0</a><br>
                                                          5<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          """<br>
                                                          Power Quality<br>
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          of the
                                                          electric
                                                          current,
                                                          voltage and
                                                          frequencies at
                                                          a<br>
                                                          given point in
                                                          an electric
                                                          power system,
                                                          evaluated
                                                          against a set
                                                          of<br>
                                                          reference
                                                          technical
                                                          parameters.
                                                          These
                                                          parameters
                                                          might, in some
                                                          cases,<br>
                                                          relate to the
                                                          compatibility
                                                          between
                                                          electricity
                                                          supplied in an
                                                          electric<br>
                                                          power system
                                                          and the loads
                                                          connected to
                                                          that electric
                                                          power system.<br>
                                                          """<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I'm reluctant
                                                          to change that
                                                          to power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          as the method
                                                          of<br>
                                                          definition is
                                                          that we take
                                                          from a source
                                                          directly at
                                                          first. I see
                                                          no<br>
                                                          source for
                                                          power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          only power
                                                          quality.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Since I can't
                                                          find a source
                                                          for power
                                                          characteristics,
                                                          a quick search
                                                          on<br>
                                                          how "power
                                                          characteristics"
                                                          is used shows
                                                          that it refers
                                                          more times on<br>
                                                          how a device
                                                          uses power.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So to contrast
                                                          Â "power
                                                          quality"
                                                          describes the
                                                          electrical
                                                          characteristics<br>
                                                          (voltage and
                                                          frequency).
                                                          "Power
                                                          characteristics"
                                                          however Â more
                                                          commonly<br>
                                                          refers to
                                                          (example) a
                                                          device using
                                                          say 100W at
                                                          boot up and
                                                          the 50W at a<br>
                                                          steady state
                                                          over time.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So while the
                                                          minutes state
                                                          this...<br>
                                                          """<br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          refer to these
                                                          as Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          instead of<br>
                                                          Power<br>
                                                          Quality to
                                                          avoid
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BC] - Asks
                                                          room if Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          is OK. Â Notes
                                                          no objections.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Other terms
                                                          that discussed
                                                          on the list:<br>
                                                          - Power State
                                                          Set<br>
                                                          - Energy
                                                          Object
                                                          Relationship<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          just continue
                                                          the discussion
                                                          on the list.<br>
                                                          """<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Very easy
                                                          research shows
                                                          that Â "power
                                                          quality" and
                                                          "power<br>
                                                          characteristics"
                                                          are two
                                                          distinct terms
                                                          and not
                                                          Â interchangeable.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So I'm asking
                                                          "Are you
                                                          sure?"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I proposed to
                                                          keep "power
                                                          quality" as
                                                          defined by
                                                          IEC60050 and
                                                          if needed<br>
                                                          I can add
                                                          "power
                                                          characteristics"
                                                          as described
                                                          above if
                                                          someone has a<br>
                                                          reference. I
                                                          strongly
                                                          propose not to
                                                          use them
                                                          interchangeably.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Feedback?<br>
                                                          Jp<br>
                                                          <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          eman mailing
                                                          list<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eman@ietf.org" target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br clear="all">
                                                      <br>
                                                      -- <br>
                                                      <font size="4"><b>Bruce
                                                          Nordman</b></font><br>
                                                      <span
                                                        style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence

                                                        Berkeley
                                                        National
                                                        Laboratory</span><br>
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target="_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:510-486-7089" value="+15104867089" target="_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                                      m: <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:510-501-7943" value="+15105017943" target="_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <fieldset></fieldset>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <pre>_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org" target="_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <br clear="all">
                                          <br>
                                          -- <br>
                                          <font size="4"><b>Bruce
                                              Nordman</b></font><br>
                                          <span
                                            style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence
                                            Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br>
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
                                            target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov"
                                            target="_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:510-486-7089"
                                            value="+15104867089"
                                            target="_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                          m: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:510-501-7943"
                                            value="+15105017943"
                                            target="_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                          <br>
                                        </span> </blockquote>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </span> </blockquote>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <br>
                    -- <br>
                    <font size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                    <span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                      National Laboratory</span><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
                      target="_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target="_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:510-486-7089"
                      value="+15104867089" target="_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                    m: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="tel:510-501-7943" value="+15105017943"
                      target="_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </span></div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); " size="4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
        <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); ">Lawrence Berkeley National
          Laboratory</span><br>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"
          target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov"
          style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
        510-486-7089<br>
        m: 510-501-7943<br>
        <br>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Hi Juergen,
> Hi John, 
>
> We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
> so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
> relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
> would be good for.
>
> Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
> have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
> that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
> on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
> powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line or
> in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?
This is my understanding. Yes.

Trying to bring all this together.
The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:


    Energy Management Domain

An Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all objects
in the domain are considered one unit of management.

For example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.

For example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
with the same AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building
for which there is one main meter, would comprise an Energy Management
Domain.

NOTES:

1. Typically, this set will have as members all EO's that are powered
from the same source

If we add to that
- "If all power interface of an energy object are in the same domain,
then it is safe to state that the entire energy object is in that
domain." (proposed by Juergen)
I would slightly rephrase this: "If all Energy Objects in the
containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management
Domain, then it is safe to state that the Energy Object at the root of
that containment tree is in that Energy Management Domain ."
- If we add to this, that, if you don't want to use the Energy
Management Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in eoDomainName.

Does it work?

Now, let's come back to the initial problem:

    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
    a single Energy Management Domain"

    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
    ¡°I don't think that this is a valid assumption. How do we address
    the case of an energy object which has redundant and diverse power
    sources for reliability, or an energy object which has access to
    alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
    between them to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are
    these not examples of different metering domains?¡± 

Distinguishing between a component and a device.
- a component: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
Domain."
We understand that this domain can change over the time.
- a device: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB)
are part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it is safe to state
that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in that
Energy Management Domain."

Are we going in the right direction?


Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>
> The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain should/need to
> be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
> questions "Who sets the domain on a devices?" and "Who reads the domain of
> a device?".
>
> And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
> relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
> defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
> Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
> datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.
>
> Cheers,
>     Juergen
>
>
>
> On 27.02.12 17:51, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Juergen,
>>
>> We seem to be discussing two concepts.
>>
>> The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another.
>> So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
>> sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
>> Same pattern for metered by.
>>
>> The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
>> a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
>> relationships between them.
>>
>> I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
>> covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domain
>> needs to be defined.
>>
>> Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationships.
>>
>> Jp
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu]
>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
>> To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I have two points:
>> 1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in.
>> 2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
>>
>> 1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
>> object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
>> power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
>> desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
>> domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
>> device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
>> energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
>> object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
>> would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
>> would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
>> use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
>> names.
>>
>>
>> 2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
>> devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
>> you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
>> no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
>> few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
>> tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.
>>
>> In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
>> to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
>> one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
>> the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one
>> example.
>>
>>
>> My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
>> want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say,
>> it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
>> to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating things
>> by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
>> the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
>> domains per power interface.
>>
>>    Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
>>> EMAN specification to keep things simple.
>>> I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can
>>> always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
>>> prevalent.
>>>
>>> While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
>>> power sources and each power source in a different management domain it's
>>> just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
>>> management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>>>
>>> To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
>>> with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
>>> community.  
>>>
>>> Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
>>> the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
>>> Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
>>> roll up or combine the information anyway.
>>>
>>> So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
>>> this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
>>> The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
>>> are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
>>> Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
>>> data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>>>
>>> Jp
>>>
>>> PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Juergen Quittek
>>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
>>> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>>> Energy Management Domain
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
>>> with redundant and diverse power sources.
>>>
>>> Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
>>> if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>>>
>>> Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
>>> rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.
>>>
>>> Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
>>> Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And our
>>> energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
>>> Bill pointed us to.
>>>
>>> And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
>>> object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
>>> energy object is in that domain.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>    Juergen
>>>
>>> On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>    Dear all,
>>>>    
>>>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
>>>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>>>>    
>>>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>>>>    
>>>>    ©øI don't think that this is a valid
>>>>      assumption.
>>>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
>>>>      and diverse
>>>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>>>>      access to
>>>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>>>>      between them
>>>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>>>>      examples of
>>>>      different metering domains?©÷
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    Energy
>>>>      Management Domain
>>>>    An
>>>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>>>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>>>>     
>>>>    For
>>>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>>>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>>>     
>>>>    For
>>>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>>>>      with the same
>>>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
>>>>      there is one
>>>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>>>>     
>>>>    NOTES:
>>>>    
>>>>    1.
>>>>      Typically,
>>>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>>>>      same source.
>>>>     
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    
>>>>    Is this enough?
>>>>    
>>>>    Please let us know.
>>>>    
>>>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> eman mailing list
>>>> eman@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eman mailing list
>>> eman@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


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    Hi Juergen,<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB7194C4.4390C%25quittek@neclab.eu"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi John, 

We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
would be good for.

Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line or
in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is my understanding. Yes.<br>
    <br>
    Trying to bring all this together.<br>
    The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:<br>
    <h2
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
42.9pt;tab-stops:21.3pt

      43.2pt 64.8pt 86.4pt 108.0pt 129.6pt 151.2pt 172.8pt 194.4pt
      216.0pt 237.6pt 259.2pt 280.8pt 302.4pt 324.0pt 345.6pt 367.2pt
      388.8pt 410.4pt 15.0cm 432.35pt 446.55pt 475.2pt 496.8pt">Energy
      Management Domain</h2>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:21.3pt

      45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt
      412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt">An

      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all
      objects in the domain are considered one unit of management. </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:21.3pt

      45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt
      412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt">&nbsp;</p>
    <p class="MsoNormal"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;tab-stops:21.3pt

      45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 367.2pt
      412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt">For

      example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
      Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.</p>
    <p class="RFCText"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;tab-stops:21.3pt 15.0cm
      432.35pt 446.55pt">&nbsp;</p>
    <p class="RFCText"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;tab-stops:21.3pt 15.0cm
      432.35pt 446.55pt">For example, all EEO's drawing power from the
      same distribution panel with the same AC voltage within a
      building, or all EEO's in a building for which there is one main
      meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain. </p>
    <p class="RFCText"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;tab-stops:21.3pt 15.0cm
      432.35pt 446.55pt">&nbsp;</p>
    <p class="RFCText"
      style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;
      margin-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;tab-stops:21.3pt 15.0cm
      432.35pt 446.55pt">NOTES: </p>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1. Typically, this set will have as members all EO's
    that are powered from the same source<br>
    <br>
    If we add to that<br>
    - "If all power interface of
    an energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state
    that the entire energy object is in that domain." (proposed by
    Juergen) <br>
    I would slightly rephrase this: "If all Energy Objects in the
    containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy
    Management Domain, then it is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain ."<br>
    - If we add to this, that, if you don't want to use the Energy
    Management Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in
    eoDomainName.<br>
    <br>
    Does it work?<br>
    <br>
    Now, let's come back to the initial problem:<br>
    <blockquote>In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy
      Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain"<br>
      <br>
      Feedback received from Bill Mielke:<br>
      <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:Batang;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:

        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">¡°I don't think that this is a
        valid assumption. How do we address the case of an energy object
        which has redundant and diverse power sources for reliability,
        or an energy object which has access to alternative power
        sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to
        optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
        examples of different metering domains?¡±</span> </blockquote>
    <div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-western">
      <link rel="File-List"
href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cbclaise%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">
      <link rel="themeData"
href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cbclaise%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx">
      <link rel="colorSchemeMapping"
href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cbclaise%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml">
    </div>
    Distinguishing between a component and a device.<br>
    - a component: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy
    Management Domain." <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We understand that this domain can change over the time.<br>
    - a device: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
    Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see
    ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it
    is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain."<br>
    <br>
    Are we going in the right direction?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB7194C4.4390C%25quittek@neclab.eu"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain should/need to
be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
questions "Who sets the domain on a devices?" and "Who reads the domain of
a device?".

And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.

Cheers,
    Juergen



On 27.02.12 17:51, "John Parello (jparello)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jparello@cisco.com">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Juergen,

We seem to be discussing two concepts.

The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another.
So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
Same pattern for metered by.

The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
relationships between them.

I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domain
needs to be defined.

Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationships.

Jp



-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Quittek [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu">mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu</a>]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi John,

I have two points:
1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in.
2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.

1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
names.


2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.

In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one
example.


My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say,
it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating things
by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
domains per power interface.

   Juergen



On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jparello@cisco.com">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
EMAN specification to keep things simple.
I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can
always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
prevalent.

While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
power sources and each power source in a different management domain it's
just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.

To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
community.  

Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
roll up or combine the information anyway.

So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.

Jp

PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.

-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Juergen Quittek
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi all,

I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
with redundant and diverse power sources.

Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.

Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.

Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And our
energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
Bill pointed us to.

And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
energy object is in that domain.

Thanks,
   Juergen

On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">
 
 
   Dear all,
   
   In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
   a single Energy Management Domain"
   
   Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
   
   ©øI don't think that this is a valid
     assumption.
     How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
     and diverse
     power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
     access to
     alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
     between them
     to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
     examples of
     different metering domains?©÷
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
   
   
   Energy
     Management Domain
   An
     Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
     all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
    
   For
     example, power distribution units and all of the attached
     Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
    
   For
     example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
     with the same
     AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
     there is one
     main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
    
   NOTES:
   
   1.
     Typically,
     this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
     same source.
    
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Is this enough?
   
   Please let us know.
   
   Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
 

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">


</pre>
    </blockquote>
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From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Feb 28 07:35:05 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:34:59 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
References: <CB71424F.437E4%quittek@neclab.eu> <4F4C10AF.5010603@cisco.com> <791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C821@DAPHNIS.office.hd> <20120228083637.GA8273@elstar.local> <791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C8A1@DAPHNIS.office.hd> <20120228085753.GA8391@elstar.local> <791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C960@DAPHNIS.office.hd>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Hi,

Maybe the term intelligence was badly chosen. Granted.
Putting "more information in the devices so that some local or remote 
management might use it intelligently", might be more appropriate.

Is sysLocation well specified?

    "The physical location of this node (e.g., 'telephone
    closet, 3rd floor'). If the location is unknown, the
    value is the zero-length string."

Is IfName well specified?

    "The textual name of the interface. The value of this
    object should be the name of the interface as assigned by
    the local device and should be suitable for use in commands
    entered at the device's `console'. This might be a text
    name, such as `le0' or a simple port number, such as `1',
    depending on the interface naming syntax of the device. If
    several entries in the ifTable together represent a single
    interface as named by the device, then each will have the
    same value of ifName. Note that for an agent which responds
    to SNMP queries concerning an interface on some other
    (proxied) device, then the value of ifName for such an
    interface is the proxied device's local name for it.

    If there is no local name, or this object is otherwise not
    applicable, then this object contains a zero-length string."


Is ifDescr well specified?

    "A textual string containing information about the
    interface. This string should include the name of the
    manufacturer, the product name and the version of the
    interface hardware/software."

Etc...

Are these objects useful, absolutely!
Would we benefit from well defined specifications for interoperability. 
Yes!
Is this possible to have well defined specifications for those objects. 
Maybe, not sure...

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK]
> I couldn't agree more. That in effect was one of my main concerns with "importance".
>
> NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
>> university.de]
>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012 09:58
>> To: Rolf Winter
>> Cc: Benoit Claise; Juergen Quittek; eman mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:47:53AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:
>>
>>> This was referring to Benoit's more general comment saying
>>> "Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the
>> devices"
>>> not to the domain object.
>> OK, but even then, interoperable 'intelligence' requires the definition
>> of elements of procedure. Objects that do implementation specific magic
>> are of limited value for interoperability.
>>
>> /js
>>
>> --
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103<http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>


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    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    Maybe the term intelligence was badly chosen. Granted.<br>
    Putting "more information in the devices so that some local or
    remote management might use it intelligently", might be more
    appropriate.<br>
    <br>
    Is sysLocation well specified?<br>
    <blockquote> <span class="modulecontent">"The physical location of
        this node (e.g., 'telephone</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> closet, 3rd floor'). If the location
        is unknown, the</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> value is the zero-length string."</span><br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Is IfName well specified?<br>
    <blockquote><span class="modulecontent">"The textual name of the
        interface. The value of this</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> object should be the name of the
        interface as assigned by</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> the local device and should be
        suitable for use in commands</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> entered at the device's `console'.
        This might be a text</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> name, such as `le0' or a simple port
        number, such as `1',</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> depending on the interface naming
        syntax of the device. If</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> several entries in the ifTable
        together represent a single</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> interface as named by the device,
        then each will have the</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> same value of ifName. Note that for
        an agent which responds</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> to SNMP queries concerning an
        interface on some other</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> (proxied) device, then the value of
        ifName for such an</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> interface is the proxied device's
        local name for it.</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"></span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> If there is no local name, or this
        object is otherwise not</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> applicable, then this object contains
        a zero-length string."</span><br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Is ifDescr well specified?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote> <span class="modulecontent">"A textual string
        containing information about the</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> interface. This string should include
        the name of the</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> manufacturer, the product name and
        the version of the</span><br>
      <span class="modulecontent"> interface hardware/software."</span><br>
    </blockquote>
    Etc...<br>
    <br>
    Are these objects useful, absolutely!<br>
    Would we benefit from well defined specifications for
    interoperability. Yes! <br>
    Is this possible to have well defined specifications for those
    objects. Maybe, not sure...<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C960@DAPHNIS.office.hd"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I couldn't agree more. That in effect was one of my main concerns with "importance".

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs">mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs</a>-
university.de]
Sent: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012 09:58
To: Rolf Winter
Cc: Benoit Claise; Juergen Quittek; eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:47:53AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">This was referring to Benoit's more general comment saying
"Personally, I'm in favor of putting more intelligence in the
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">devices"
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">not to the domain object.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
OK, but even then, interoperable 'intelligence' requires the definition
of elements of procedure. Objects that do implementation specific magic
are of limited value for interoperability.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.jacobs-university.de/">&lt;http://www.jacobs-university.de/&gt;</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Rolf Winter" <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>, "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "Brad Schoening" <brads@coraid.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From jparello@cisco.com  Tue Feb 28 11:31:25 2012
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Thread-Topic: Some examples of non-electrical energy and devices
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: [eman] Some examples of non-electrical energy and devices
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HI,

I was asked of alias a few times about examples of non -electrical
energy and device attached to a network that are in the glossary but not
used in any IETF draft at this time. Thought I repost here for the
interested reader.  I tried to combine a few concepts in the example.

""
Examples of network attached device that produces or uses non electrical
energy.

1)	A controller for compressed air. The controller is electrical
only for its network connection. Fueled by natural gas and produces
compressed air. That energy transfer (power) via compressed air is
distributed to devices on a factory floor. Things such as tools (drills,
screwdrivers, assembly lines (conveyor belts). The compressed air
controller is  parent and the attached devices powered by compressed air
are the children. The energy measured is non-electrical (compressed air)

2)	A controller for steam. The controller is electrical for its
network attachment but it burns tallow and produces steam to subtended
boilers. Similar to the above. The controller is the parent and the
energy is non-electrical (steam)
"""


Jp



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Brad--
  As you have discovered, the information on the public web page is
fairly general.  Best I can suggest to dig into details is to join the
standards committee.   In any case, it supports power interfaces
that can switch direction.
  For "similar to PoE", that was in reference to a central supply of
power with many ports  Since the standard is not public, I don't
think I can cite the language.  UPAMD connections can also be
peer-to-peer.  For "power delivery only" - definitely - it is not a
communications standard.  HDBaseT, on the other hand, does both.
  I am pleased that communications technology is enabling power
distribution approaches that were not possible beforehand, or at
least much more difficult.
--Bruce

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Thanks for providing the reference to UPAMD, but I'm still very puzzled
> about the term you used, 'bidirectional'.
>
> According to the IEEE web site at
> http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upamd/
>
> "The Universal Power Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMDTM) standard
> defines a power delivery connection between a power adapter and a power
> using device in the 10 Watt to <240 Watt range. A communications link
> between the power adapter and the mobile power using device is also defin=
ed.
> =E2=80=A6
>
> The UPAMDTM standard creates a common interconnect for power delivery in
> the 10W to <240W power range to portable and fixed devices. This standard
> supports more universal use and reuse of power adapters replacing brand
> specific and model specific power adapters.
> "
>
> As you note, this is similar to PoE.  Could you be specific about the
> language for UPAMD that specifies "power is not restricted to flow only
> away from the hub."  My admittedly cursory reading of the above leads me =
to
> believe this is just for "power delivery" only, as the standard itself
> states.
>
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
> limitations?
>
> Certainly.  IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard for
> distributing low-voltage DC power.  Originally designed for notebook
> computers,
> the goal is now a wide variety of products.  From a power perspective a
> UPAMD
> hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not restricte=
d
> to flow
> only away from the hub.
> Similarly, HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.  It is in
> many ways
> a superset of PoE.
> As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries
> and
> local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution only
> increases,
> and technology is arriving to enable that.
> In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or
> entirely
> ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make
> good
> use of EMAN.
>
> In general, one can compute power metering or power supply relationships
> from data on wiring topology.  The reverse is generally not possible.
> This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.
>
> --Bruce
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Could you explain what you mean by 'bi-directional supply'.  I searched
>> for the term 'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able to find it=
.
>>
>> Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> R=
edefining
>> Storage Economics****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -0600
>> To: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
>>
>>  Dear all,
>>
>> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt
>>
>> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
>> can't be done in the framework?
>>
>> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework becaus=
e
>> of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on
>> net energy flow.
>>
>> We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
>> in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while th=
e
>> [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>>
>> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framewor=
k/,
>> the official EMAN document
>> [EMAN-REF] =3D
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>>
>> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2ed3c581671804ba0d8143
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Brad--<br>=C2=A0 As you have discovered, the information on the public web =
page is<br>fairly general.=C2=A0 Best I can suggest to dig into details is =
to join the<br>standards committee.=C2=A0=C2=A0 In any case, it supports po=
wer interfaces<br>
that can switch direction.<br>=C2=A0 For &quot;similar to PoE&quot;, that w=
as in reference to a central supply of<br>power with many ports=C2=A0 Since=
 the standard is not public, I don&#39;t<br>think I can cite the language.=
=C2=A0 UPAMD connections can also be<br>
peer-to-peer.=C2=A0 For &quot;power delivery only&quot; - definitely - it i=
s not a<br>communications standard.=C2=A0 HDBaseT, on the other hand, does =
both.<br>=C2=A0 I am pleased that communications technology is enabling pow=
er<br>distribution approaches that were not possible beforehand, or at<br>
least much more difficult.<br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Brad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div style=3D"font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Bruce,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;font-size:14px">
Thanks for providing the reference to UPAMD, but I&#39;m still very puzzled=
 about the term you used, &#39;bidirectional&#39;.</div><div style=3D"font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
According to the IEEE web site at=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://grouper.ieee.org/g=
roups/msc/upamd/" target=3D"_blank">http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upam=
d/</a></div><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b=
r></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;marg=
in-left:40px;border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-st=
yle:none;border-left-style:none;border-width:initial;border-color:initial;p=
adding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D=
"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webk=
it-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:14px;text-transfor=
m:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;word-=
spacing:0px">&quot;The Universal Power Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMD</s=
pan><sup style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal=
;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:1=
4px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:6pt;font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif">TM</span></sup><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:=
normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;line-height:14px;text-transform:none;font-size:10pt;white-spac=
e:normal;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;word-spacing:0px">) standard defines =
a power delivery connection between a power adapter and a power using devic=
e in the 10 Watt to &lt;240 Watt range. A communications link between the p=
ower adapter and the mobile power using device is also defined.</span></div=
>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D=
"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webk=
it-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:14px;text-transfor=
m:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;word-=
spacing:0px">=E2=80=A6</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D=
"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webk=
it-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:14px;text-transfor=
m:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;word-=
spacing:0px"><br>
</span></div><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-vari=
ant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;lin=
e-height:14px;text-transform:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;word-spacing:0px">The UPAMD</span><sup style=3D"text-=
indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-aut=
o;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:14px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;word-spacin=
g:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:6pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">TM</span>=
</sup><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heigh=
t:14px;text-transform:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-family:Ar=
ial,sans-serif;word-spacing:0px">=C2=A0standard creates a common interconne=
ct for power delivery in the 10W to &lt;240W power range to portable and fi=
xed devices. This standard supports more universal use and reuse of power a=
dapters replacing brand specific and model specific power adapters.</span><=
div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:14px=
;text-transform:none;font-size:10pt;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;word-spacing:0px">&quot;</span></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13px;line-hei=
ght:14px"><br></span></font></div></blockquote><div><font face=3D"Arial,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13px;line-height:14px">As you note, this =
is similar to PoE. =C2=A0Could you be specific about the language for UPAMD=
 that specifies &quot;power is not restricted to flow only away from the hu=
b.&quot; =C2=A0My admittedly cursory reading of the above leads me to belie=
ve this is just for &quot;power delivery&quot; only, as the standard itself=
 states.=C2=A0</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13px;line-hei=
ght:14px"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:13px;line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin=
-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a>=
</span></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:9C957A3A-E64F-48AB-BA74-D538C776763A" alt=3D"De=
scription: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=
=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefin=
ing Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><div style=3D"bor=
der-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;te=
xt-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;=
border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 -0600=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;, eman mail=
ing list &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] ve=
rsus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<br></div><div><br></div>Certainly=
.=C2=A0 IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard for<br>di=
stributing low-voltage DC power.=C2=A0 Originally designed for notebook com=
puters,<br>
the goal is now a wide variety of products.=C2=A0 From a power perspective =
a UPAMD<br>
hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not restricted =
to flow<br>only away from the hub.=C2=A0 <br>Similarly, HDBaseT supports po=
wer flowing in either direction.=C2=A0 It is in many ways<br>a superset of =
PoE.<br>

As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries an=
d<br>local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution o=
nly increases,<br>and technology is arriving to enable that.<br>In both of =
these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or entirely<br>

ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make goo=
d<br>use of EMAN.<br><br>In general, one can compute power metering or powe=
r supply relationships<br>from data on wiring topology.=C2=A0 The reverse i=
s generally not possible.<br>

This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.<br><br>-=
-Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, B=
rad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br><=
/div>
<div>Could you explain what you mean by &#39;bi-directional supply&#39;. =
=C2=A0I searched for the term &#39;bidirectional&#39; in your document and =
wasn&#39;t able to find it.</div><div><br></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-botto=
m:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@=
coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=
=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190=
" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=
=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0=
in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-b=
ottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-=
bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -06=
00<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> eman mailing list &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN=
-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<br>
</div><div><div><div><br></div><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
    <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><br>
    <blockquote>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the
      reference model that can&#39;t be done in the framework?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote>[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
      framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference
      model inherently focuses on net energy flow.<br>
    </blockquote>
    We would like to know if there are other things that this one
    (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF]
    could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-e=
man-framework/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-eman-framework/</a>,
    the official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek=
-eman-reference-model/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
  </font></span></div></div></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div><sp=
an class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <b=
r><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br>
<a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/e=
a/nordman</a><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><=
br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">51=
0-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
<br></font></span></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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--047d7b2ed3c581671a04ba0d8144--

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From: Leonard Tsai <leonard.tsai@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CB71B40D.20D4F%brads@coraid.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:29:05 +0800
Message-Id: <032CAB04-5A20-4D1B-8B9D-DD2C77C55704@gmail.com>
References: <CB71B40D.20D4F%brads@coraid.com>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
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Hi, Brad,

  I am on the UPAMD working group - also, I am one of the originals who =
started the group with Bob Davis (chair person).=20

  UPAMD is not like PoE. The statement about the power may flow any =
direction between devices (after negotiation) is to enable device to =
power other device in case of needs.

  UPAMD is mainly for flexible power delivery to reduce eWaste (of =
mobile power adapters) by including some intelligence so that they can =
be repurposed in the case when the main device (for example, notebook) =
is no longer functional or obsolete.=20

 Leonard=20

On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Brad Schoening wrote:

> Bruce,
>=20
> Thanks for providing the reference to UPAMD, but I'm still very =
puzzled about the term you used, 'bidirectional'.
>=20
> According to the IEEE web site at =
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upamd/
>=20
>> "The Universal Power Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMDTM) standard =
defines a power delivery connection between a power adapter and a power =
using device in the 10 Watt to <240 Watt range. A communications link =
between the power adapter and the mobile power using device is also =
defined.
>> =E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> The UPAMDTM standard creates a common interconnect for power delivery =
in the 10W to <240W power range to portable and fixed devices. This =
standard supports more universal use and reuse of power adapters =
replacing brand specific and model specific power adapters.
>> "
>>=20
> As you note, this is similar to PoE.  Could you be specific about the =
language for UPAMD that specifies "power is not restricted to flow only =
away from the hub."  My admittedly cursory reading of the above leads me =
to believe this is just for "power delivery" only, as the standard =
itself states.=20
>=20
>=20
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>=20
> <68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[20].png> Redefining Storage =
Economics
> =20
>=20
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list =
<eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?
>=20
> Certainly.  IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard =
for
> distributing low-voltage DC power.  Originally designed for notebook =
computers,
> the goal is now a wide variety of products.  =46rom a power =
perspective a UPAMD
> hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not =
restricted to flow
> only away from the hub. =20
> Similarly, HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.  It is =
in many ways
> a superset of PoE.
> As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone =
batteries and
> local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution =
only increases,
> and technology is arriving to enable that.
> In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or =
entirely
> ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to =
make good
> use of EMAN.
>=20
> In general, one can compute power metering or power supply =
relationships
> from data on wiring topology.  The reverse is generally not possible.
> This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.
>=20
> --Bruce
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> =
wrote:
>> Bruce,
>>=20
>> Could you explain what you mean by 'bi-directional supply'.  I =
searched for the term 'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able =
to find it.
>>=20
>> Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>=20
>>  Redefining Storage Economics
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -0600
>> To: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> =46rom the IETF 82 meeting minutes, =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt
>>> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model =
that can't be done in the framework?=20
>>> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework =
because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently =
focuses on net energy flow.
>> We would like to know if there are other things that this one =
(discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could =
do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>>=20
>> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official =
EMAN document
>> [EMAN-REF] =3D =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Bruce Nordman
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman


--Apple-Mail=_0DD1288A-3E4A-4770-B917-DF668ABF1328
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>Hi, Brad,</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; I am on =
the UPAMD working group - also, I am one of the originals who started =
the group with Bob Davis (chair =
person).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; UPAMD is not like PoE. =
The statement about the power may flow any direction between devices =
(after negotiation) is to enable device to power other device in case of =
needs.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; UPAMD is mainly for flexible =
power delivery to reduce eWaste (of mobile power adapters) by including =
some intelligence so that they can be repurposed in the case when the =
main device (for example, notebook) is no longer functional or =
obsolete.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;Leonard&nbsp;</div><br><div=
><div>On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Brad Schoening wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
"><div><div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px; ">Bruce,</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Thanks for providing the reference to =
UPAMD, but I'm still very puzzled about the term you used, =
'bidirectional'.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">According to the IEEE web site at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upamd/">http://grouper.ieee.org=
/groups/msc/upamd/</a></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 40px; =
border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: =
none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: =
initial; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; =
padding-left: 0px; " type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">"The Universal Power =
Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMD</span><sup style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span style=3D"font-size: 6pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">TM</span></sup><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">) standard defines a power delivery connection =
between a power adapter and a power using device in the 10 Watt to =
&lt;240 Watt range. A communications link between the power adapter and =
the mobile power using device is also defined.</span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: =
2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">=E2=80=A6</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
"><br></span></div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">The UPAMD</span><sup =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 6pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">TM</span></sup><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;standard creates a common interconnect for =
power delivery in the 10W to &lt;240W power range to portable and fixed =
devices. This standard supports more universal use and reuse of power =
adapters replacing brand specific and model specific power =
adapters.</span><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">"</span></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: 14px; =
"><br></span></font></div></blockquote><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;">As you note, this is similar to PoE. &nbsp;Could you be specific =
about the language for UPAMD that specifies "power is not restricted to =
flow only away from the hub." &nbsp;My admittedly cursory reading of the =
above leads me to believe this is just for "power delivery" only, as the =
standard itself states.&nbsp;</span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;"><br></span></font></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Brad =
Schoening</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 15px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">=E2=9F=90</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; ">&nbsp;m:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">&nbsp;917-304-7190</span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color:=
 blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration: none; "><a =
href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; =
"><span>&lt;68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[20].png&gt;</span></a></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; ">&nbsp;Redefining Storage =
Economics<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; =
"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; =
font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium =
none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium =
none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> =
Bruce Nordman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 =
-0600<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;, eman =
mailing list &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] =
versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?<br></div><div><br></div>Certainly.&nbsp; IEEE is in the =
process of standardising UPAMD, a standard for<br>distributing =
low-voltage DC power.&nbsp; Originally designed for notebook =
computers,<br>the goal is now a wide variety of products.&nbsp; =46rom a =
power perspective a UPAMD<br>
hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not =
restricted to flow<br>only away from the hub.&nbsp; <br>Similarly, =
HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.&nbsp; It is in many =
ways<br>a superset of PoE.<br>
As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries =
and<br>local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power =
distribution only increases,<br>and technology is arriving to enable =
that.<br>In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be =
mostly or entirely<br>
ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make =
good<br>use of EMAN.<br><br>In general, one can compute power metering =
or power supply relationships<br>from data on wiring topology.&nbsp; The =
reverse is generally not possible.<br>
This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably =
necessary.<br><br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb =
27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br></div><div>Could you explain what =
you mean by 'bi-directional supply'. &nbsp;I searched for the term =
'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able to find =
it.</div><div><br></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad =
Schoening</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> =
</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:12px">&nbsp;m:</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" =
target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a =
href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" =
style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img =
src=3D"x-msg://652/" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" =
type=3D"image/png" height=3D"46" border=3D"0" =
width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp;Redefining =
Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div></div></div=
></div><div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium =
none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;fo=
nt-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium =
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt =
solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none"><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 =
-0600<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> eman mailing list =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus =
[EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<br></div><div><div =
class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    =46rom the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
    <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><=
br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">[BC] - Is there something that can be done =
in the
      reference model that can't be done in the framework?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is =
problematic in the
      framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference
      model inherently focuses on net energy flow.<br>
    </blockquote>
    We would like to know if there are other things that this one
    (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF]
    could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framewor=
k/</a>,
    the official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model=
/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-refer=
ence-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div></div></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br =
clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce =
Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence =
Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a =
href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>510-486-7089<br>m=
: 510-501-7943<br><br></span></div>
_______________________________________________<br>eman mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/eman<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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From: Leonard Tsai <leonard.tsai@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:13:06 +0800
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To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
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Hi, Brad,

  the UPAMD conf call will starts in 50 mins from now. I encourage you =
to attend. It's the best way to get familiar.=20

  If the power adapter contains a "power hub", then the power may flow =
back to the adapter (hub) then to another device. This is considered in =
the case that the laptop A is connected to the power adapter (with a =
hub) B, while a phone C is also connected to the same power adapter B. =
User may want to move some of the power from larger battery inside =
laptop A to the phone C via power adapter B. Another case is for the =
"smart" power adapter - i.e. the power adapter has other active =
circuitry. When there is no AC input, the user may consider to control =
the amount of power from laptop A back to the active circuitry inside =
adapter B.=20

  I hope this short description helps but the best way is still to =
attend and read the draft. Welcome.

Leonard=20


On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:49 AM, Brad Schoening wrote:

> Leonard,
>=20
> Thanks for the helpful details on UPAMD.  It would be great if you =
could expand a bit on your explanation of how power may flow =
bi-directionally.  Given a Power Adapter and a Device, the =
bi-directional part seems to be between devices, not back to the Power =
Adapter.=20
>=20
> For example, if my laptop could be powered by USB, and I imagine I =
could connect laptop A to laptop B and power them A -> B or B -> A =
depending upon the need and battery state.   Is this about correct?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Brad
>=20
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>=20
> <68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[32].png> Redefining Storage =
Economics
> =20
>=20
> From: Leonard Tsai <leonard.tsai@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:29:05 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, eman mailing list =
<eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
>=20
>=20
> Hi, Brad,
>=20
>   I am on the UPAMD working group - also, I am one of the originals =
who started the group with Bob Davis (chair person).=20
>=20
>   UPAMD is not like PoE. The statement about the power may flow any =
direction between devices (after negotiation) is to enable device to =
power other device in case of needs.
>=20
>   UPAMD is mainly for flexible power delivery to reduce eWaste (of =
mobile power adapters) by including some intelligence so that they can =
be repurposed in the case when the main device (for example, notebook) =
is no longer functional or obsolete.=20
>=20
>  Leonard=20
>=20
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Brad Schoening wrote:
>=20
>> Bruce,
>>=20
>> Thanks for providing the reference to UPAMD, but I'm still very =
puzzled about the term you used, 'bidirectional'.
>>=20
>> According to the IEEE web site at =
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upamd/
>>=20
>>> "The Universal Power Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMDTM) standard =
defines a power delivery connection between a power adapter and a power =
using device in the 10 Watt to <240 Watt range. A communications link =
between the power adapter and the mobile power using device is also =
defined.
>>> =E2=80=A6
>>>=20
>>> The UPAMDTM standard creates a common interconnect for power =
delivery in the 10W to <240W power range to portable and fixed devices. =
This standard supports more universal use and reuse of power adapters =
replacing brand specific and model specific power adapters.
>>> "
>>>=20
>> As you note, this is similar to PoE.  Could you be specific about the =
language for UPAMD that specifies "power is not restricted to flow only =
away from the hub."  My admittedly cursory reading of the above leads me =
to believe this is just for "power delivery" only, as the standard =
itself states.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>=20
>> <68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[20].png> Redefining Storage =
Economics
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 -0600
>> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
>> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, eman mailing list =
<eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?
>>=20
>> Certainly.  IEEE is in the process of standardising UPAMD, a standard =
for
>> distributing low-voltage DC power.  Originally designed for notebook =
computers,
>> the goal is now a wide variety of products.  =46rom a power =
perspective a UPAMD
>> hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not =
restricted to flow
>> only away from the hub. =20
>> Similarly, HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.  It is =
in many ways
>> a superset of PoE.
>> As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone =
batteries and
>> local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power distribution =
only increases,
>> and technology is arriving to enable that.
>> In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be mostly or =
entirely
>> ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to =
make good
>> use of EMAN.
>>=20
>> In general, one can compute power metering or power supply =
relationships
>> from data on wiring topology.  The reverse is generally not possible.
>> This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably necessary.
>>=20
>> --Bruce
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> =
wrote:
>>> Bruce,
>>>=20
>>> Could you explain what you mean by 'bi-directional supply'.  I =
searched for the term 'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able =
to find it.
>>>=20
>>> Brad Schoening
>>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>=20
>>>  Redefining Storage Economics
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 -0600
>>> To: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?
>>>=20
>>> Dear all,
>>>=20
>>> =46rom the IETF 82 meeting minutes, =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt
>>>> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model =
that can't be done in the framework?=20
>>>> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework =
because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently =
focuses on net energy flow.
>>> We would like to know if there are other things that this one =
(discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could =
do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>>>=20
>>> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official =
EMAN document
>>> [EMAN-REF] =3D =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>>>=20
>>> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Bruce Nordman
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>=20


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi, =
Brad,<div><br></div><div>&nbsp; the UPAMD conf call will starts in 50 =
mins from now. I encourage you to attend. It's the best way to get =
familiar.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; If the power adapter =
contains a "power hub", then the power may flow back to the adapter =
(hub) then to another device. This is considered in the case that the =
laptop A is connected to the power adapter (with a hub) B, while a phone =
C is also connected to the same power adapter B. User may want to move =
some of the power from larger battery inside laptop A to the phone C via =
power adapter B. Another case is for the "smart" power adapter - i.e. =
the power adapter has other active circuitry. When there is no AC input, =
the user may consider to control the amount of power from laptop A back =
to the active circuitry inside adapter =
B.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; I hope this short description =
helps but the best way is still to attend and read the draft. =
Welcome.</div><div><br></div><div>Leonard&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><=
br><div><div>On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:49 AM, Brad Schoening wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: =
14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
"><div><div><div>Leonard,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the =
helpful details on UPAMD. &nbsp;It would be great if you could expand a =
bit on your explanation of how power may flow bi-directionally. =
&nbsp;Given a Power Adapter and a Device, the bi-directional part seems =
to be between devices, not back to the Power =
Adapter.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For example, if my laptop could =
be powered by USB, and I imagine I could connect laptop A to laptop B =
and power them A -&gt; B or B -&gt; A depending upon the need and =
battery state. &nbsp;&nbsp;Is this about =
correct?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Brad</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Brad =
Schoening</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 15px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">=E2=9F=90</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; ">&nbsp;m:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">&nbsp;917-304-7190</span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color:=
 blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration: none; "><a =
href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; =
"><span>&lt;68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[32].png&gt;</span></a></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; ">&nbsp;Redefining Storage =
Economics<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><sp=
an id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; =
font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium =
none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium =
none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> =
Leonard Tsai &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leonard.tsai@gmail.com">leonard.tsai@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:29:05 =
-0600<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;, eman mailing =
list &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] =
versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]<br></div><div><br></div><div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div>Hi, =
Brad,</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; I am on the UPAMD working group - =
also, I am one of the originals who started the group with Bob Davis =
(chair person).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; UPAMD is not like =
PoE. The statement about the power may flow any direction between =
devices (after negotiation) is to enable device to power other device in =
case of needs.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; UPAMD is mainly for =
flexible power delivery to reduce eWaste (of mobile power adapters) by =
including some intelligence so that they can be repurposed in the case =
when the main device (for example, notebook) is no longer functional or =
obsolete.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;Leonard&nbsp;</div><br><div=
><div>On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Brad Schoening wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
"><div><div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px; ">Bruce,</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Thanks for providing the reference to =
UPAMD, but I'm still very puzzled about the term you used, =
'bidirectional'.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">According to the IEEE web site at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/msc/upamd/">http://grouper.ieee.org=
/groups/msc/upamd/</a></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 40px; =
border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: =
none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: =
initial; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; =
padding-left: 0px; " type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">"The Universal Power =
Adapter for Mobile Devices (UPAMD</span><sup style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span style=3D"font-size: 6pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">TM</span></sup><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">) standard defines a power delivery connection =
between a power adapter and a power using device in the 10 Watt to =
&lt;240 Watt range. A communications link between the power adapter and =
the mobile power using device is also defined.</span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: =
2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">=E2=80=A6</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
"><br></span></div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">The UPAMD</span><sup =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 6pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">TM</span></sup><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;standard creates a common interconnect for =
power delivery in the 10W to &lt;240W power range to portable and fixed =
devices. This standard supports more universal use and reuse of power =
adapters replacing brand specific and model specific power =
adapters.</span><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: 14px; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">"</span></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: 14px; =
"><br></span></font></div></blockquote><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;">As you note, this is similar to PoE. &nbsp;Could you be specific =
about the language for UPAMD that specifies "power is not restricted to =
flow only away from the hub." &nbsp;My admittedly cursory reading of the =
above leads me to believe this is just for "power delivery" only, as the =
standard itself states.&nbsp;</span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; line-height: =
14px;"><br></span></font></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">Brad =
Schoening</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 15px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; ">e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">=E2=9F=90</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; ">&nbsp;m:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; ">&nbsp;917-304-7190</span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; "><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color:=
 blue; font-size: 9pt; text-decoration: none; "><a =
href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; =
"><span>&lt;68E3C3EC-27AF-42E8-8F70-14A7C87B9B6F[20].png&gt;</span></a></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; ">&nbsp;Redefining Storage =
Economics<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; =
"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; =
font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium =
none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium =
none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> =
Bruce Nordman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:17:20 =
-0600<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;, eman =
mailing list &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] =
versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?<br></div><div><br></div>Certainly.&nbsp; IEEE is in the =
process of standardising UPAMD, a standard for<br>distributing =
low-voltage DC power.&nbsp; Originally designed for notebook =
computers,<br>the goal is now a wide variety of products.&nbsp; =46rom a =
power perspective a UPAMD<br>
hub looks a lot like a PoE switch or mid-span, but power is not =
restricted to flow<br>only away from the hub.&nbsp; <br>Similarly, =
HDBaseT supports power flowing in either direction.&nbsp; It is in many =
ways<br>a superset of PoE.<br>
As more devices get batteries, and as we have more stand-alone batteries =
and<br>local generation, the usefulness of more flexible power =
distribution only increases,<br>and technology is arriving to enable =
that.<br>In both of these cases, the devices getting power will be =
mostly or entirely<br>
ones that have communication (usually IP) and so should be able to make =
good<br>use of EMAN.<br><br>In general, one can compute power metering =
or power supply relationships<br>from data on wiring topology.&nbsp; The =
reverse is generally not possible.<br>
This is why the wiring topology is so useful - arguably =
necessary.<br><br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb =
27, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Brad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br></div><div>Could you explain what =
you mean by 'bi-directional supply'. &nbsp;I searched for the term =
'bidirectional' in your document and wasn't able to find =
it.</div><div><br></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad =
Schoening</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> =
</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:12px">&nbsp;m:</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" =
target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a =
href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" =
style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img =
src=3D"x-msg://652/" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" =
type=3D"image/png" height=3D"46" border=3D"0" =
width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp;Redefining =
Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div></div></div=
></div><div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium =
none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;fo=
nt-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium =
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt =
solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none"><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:52:47 =
-0600<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> eman mailing list =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus =
[EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<br></div><div><div =
class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    =46rom the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
    <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><=
br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">[BC] - Is there something that can be done =
in the
      reference model that can't be done in the framework?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is =
problematic in the
      framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference
      model inherently focuses on net energy flow.<br>
    </blockquote>
    We would like to know if there are other things that this one
    (discussed in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF]
    could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?<br>
    <br>
    [EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framewor=
k/</a>,
    the official EMAN document<br>
    [EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model=
/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-refer=
ence-model/</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </div></div></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br =
clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce =
Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence =
Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a =
href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>510-486-7089<br>m=
: 510-501-7943<br><br></span></div>
_______________________________________________<br>eman mailing =
list<br><a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/eman</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></span></di=
v>
</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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References: <4F4C174F.6000302@cisco.com> <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9741@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:42:57 -0800
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Just to clarify, the Reference Model assumes modeling of components with
the Entity MIB as EMAN has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,
there is no difference with the Framework on that.

That said, I have often wondered about what it means for an internal
component to have relationships such as powered-by or metered-by with
an external device.  I think of components as drawing power from the chassi=
s
they are part of, not directly from an external source.

--Bruce

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

> Benoit,****
>
> ** **
>
> As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, ****
>
> ** **
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework? ****
>
> ** **
>
> There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in the
> minutes)****
>
> ** **
>
> **1.       **Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal
> components (based on the Entity MIB). ****
>
> ** **
>
> **2.       **Framework allows =96 flexible relations -  poweredBy,
> meteredBy, ControledBy.  ****
>
> There are scenarios =96 in which all of these functions can be performed =
by
> the same entity.  ****
>
> In some important cases, there are different entities doing these
> functions . ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mouli ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
> *To:* eman mailing list
>
> *Subject:* [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?=
*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Dear all,
>
>
> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt****
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework? ****
>
> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because
> of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on
> net energy flow.****
>
> We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
> in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the
> [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>
> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework=
/,
> the official EMAN document
> [EMAN-REF] =3D
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>
> ****
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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Just to clarify, the Reference Model assumes modeling of components with<br=
>
the Entity MIB as EMAN has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,<br>
there is no difference with the Framework on that.<br><br>That said, I have=
 often wondered about what it means for an internal<br>component to have re=
lationships such as powered-by or metered-by with<br>an external device.=A0=
 I think of components as drawing power from the chassis<br>
they are part of, not directly from an external source.<br><br>
--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM,=
 Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moul=
chan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Benoit,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeti=
ng, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"im"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:windowtext">[BC] - Is there some=
thing that can be done in the reference model that can&#39;t be done in the=
 framework? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:windowtext"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p></div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">There were a couple of points I =
mentioned in the meeting =A0(missed in the minutes)<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Framework allows modeling the entities and its i=
nternal components (based on the Entity MIB). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1=
f497d">Framework allows =96 flexible relations -=A0 poweredBy, meteredBy, C=
ontroledBy.=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">There are scenarios =96 in which all of these=
 functions can be performed by the same entity. =A0<u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In some important cases, there are different ent=
ities doing these functions . <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mouli <u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;;color:windowtext"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing =
list</span></p><div class=3D"im"><br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] ver=
sus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<u></u><u></u></div><p></p></div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">De=
ar all,</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,=
 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"=
_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><u></u><u></=
u></div>
</div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BC] - Is there =
something that can be done in the reference model that can&#39;t be done in=
 the framework? <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;mar=
gin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in =
the framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model in=
herently focuses on net energy flow.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed in=
 my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EM=
AN-FMWK] could not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official EMAN document<br=
>
[EMAN-REF] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-ema=
n-reference-model/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor=
 for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
<br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><br>_________________________=
______________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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From: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman mailing list" <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Thanks Leonard to explanation of UPAMD.  =20

=20

Bidrectional power flow can be modeled with the Framework  easliy-
PoweredBy relationship and with directional flow measurement of energy
EnergyConsumed / EnergyProduced.

=20

That should not be viewed as a  limitation of Framework.=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
To: eman mailing list
Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?

=20

Dear all,

>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

	[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
inherently focuses on net energy flow.

We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while
the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?

[EMAN-FMWK] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]




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style=3D'margin-left:.3in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> Bidrectional power flow can be modeled with the Framework&nbsp; =
easliy-&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;PoweredBy relationship and with directional =
flow measurement of energy EnergyConsumed / =
EnergyProduced.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.3in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.3in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>That should not be viewed as a &nbsp;limitation of Framework. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.3in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, =
2012 5:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] =
[EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
all,<br><br>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the =
reference model that can't be done in the framework? =
<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>[BN] =
- Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because of =
the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on =
net energy flow.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We would like to know if there are other =
things that this one (discussed in my previous email on the list), that =
the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] could =
not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/">http:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official =
EMAN document<br>[EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-mode=
l/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/</=
a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the =
[EMAN-FMWK]<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF6B1.27BA2B39--

From bnordman@lbl.gov  Tue Feb 28 23:17:49 2012
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References: <4F4C174F.6000302@cisco.com> <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A907AE9705@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:17:47 -0800
Message-ID: <CAK+eDP_r=xqSdd3ntjsSJQKZVW_b42+BUB657Ht5JgObrnBLyQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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--e89a8ff24969faf6fc04ba152371
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My understanding of parent/child is that the parent is always providing
the power supply or the power metering to the child.  If the power flow
direction reverses, doesn't the parent become the child and the child
become the parent?

Also, I am unsure of how we are using the term "Produced".  My understanding
is that "produced" would be from an electricity generator, or that withdrawn
from a battery.  When power flows through a wire, it is being neither
produced
nor consumed - only moved from one place to another - it crosses an
interface.

--Bruce

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

> Thanks Leonard to explanation of UPAMD.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> Bidrectional power flow can be modeled with the Framework  easliy-
>   PoweredBy relationship and with directional flow measurement of energy
> EnergyConsumed / EnergyProduced.****
>
> ** **
>
> That should not be viewed as a  limitation of Framework. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mouli****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
> *To:* eman mailing list
> *Subject:* [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Dear all,
>
>
> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt****
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework? ****
>
> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because
> of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on
> net energy flow.****
>
> We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
> in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the
> [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>
> [EMAN-FMWK] = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/,
> the official EMAN document
> [EMAN-REF] =
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]
>
> ****
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


-- 
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--e89a8ff24969faf6fc04ba152371
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My understanding of parent/child is that the parent is always providing<br>=
the power supply or the power metering to the child.=A0 If the power flow<b=
r>direction reverses, doesn&#39;t the parent become the child and the child=
<br>
become the parent?<br><br>Also, I am unsure of how we are using the term &q=
uot;Produced&quot;.=A0 My understanding<br>is that &quot;produced&quot; wou=
ld be from an electricity generator, or that withdrawn<br>from a battery.=
=A0 When power flows through a wire, it is being neither produced<br>
nor consumed - only moved from one place to another - it crosses an interfa=
ce.<br><br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 a=
t 11:10 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left=
:.3in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thanks Leonard to explanation of UPAMD. =
=A0=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.3in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d=
"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.=
3in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"> Bidrectional power flow can be modeled wit=
h the Framework=A0 easliy-=A0 =A0=A0PoweredBy relationship and with directi=
onal flow measurement of energy EnergyConsumed / EnergyProduced.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.3in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d=
"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.=
3in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">That should not be viewed as a =A0limitatio=
n of Framework. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"im"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.3in"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mouli<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounce=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </=
b>Benoit Claise (bclaise)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing =
list<br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] l=
imitations?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><=
/u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear all,</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>Fr=
om the IETF 82 meeting minutes, <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/=
82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/m=
inutes/eman.txt</a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BC] - Is there =
something that can be done in the reference model that can&#39;t be done in=
 the framework? <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;mar=
gin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in =
the framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model in=
herently focuses on net energy flow.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed in=
 my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EM=
AN-FMWK] could not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official EMAN document<br=
>
[EMAN-REF] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-ema=
n-reference-model/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor=
 for the [EMAN-FMWK]<br>
<br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><br>_________________________=
______________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--e89a8ff24969faf6fc04ba152371--

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To: "Bruce Nordman" <bnordman@lbl.gov>
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Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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I thought Reference model  - models entities with inlet and outlets. =20

So, Power is measured at that granularity of  inlet and outlet - not at
a component level.=20

=20

Mouli

=20

=20

From: Bruce Nordman [mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM
To: Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
limitations?

=20

Just to clarify, the Reference Model assumes modeling of components with
the Entity MIB as EMAN has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,
there is no difference with the Framework on that.

That said, I have often wondered about what it means for an internal
component to have relationships such as powered-by or metered-by with
an external device.  I think of components as drawing power from the
chassis
they are part of, not directly from an external source.

--Bruce

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
<moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

Benoit,

=20

As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting,=20

=20

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

=20

There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in the
minutes)

=20

1.       Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal
components (based on the Entity MIB).=20

=20

2.       Framework allows - flexible relations -  poweredBy, meteredBy,
ControledBy. =20

There are scenarios - in which all of these functions can be performed
by the same entity. =20

In some important cases, there are different entities doing these
functions .=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli=20

=20

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
To: eman mailing list


Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?

=20

Dear all,



>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

	[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
inherently focuses on net energy flow.

We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while
the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?

[EMAN-FMWK] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]


_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman




--=20
Bruce Nordman
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I thought Reference model &nbsp;- models entities with inlet and =
outlets.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So, Power is measured at that granularity of &nbsp;inlet and outlet =
&#8211; not at a component level. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Bruce Nordman [mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, =
February 29, 2012 12:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mouli Chandramouli =
(moulchan)<br><b>Cc:</b> Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing =
list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: =
[EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Just to clarify, the Reference Model =
assumes modeling of components with<br>the Entity MIB as EMAN has been =
assuming, so for reporting energy use,<br>there is no difference with =
the Framework on that.<br><br>That said, I have often wondered about =
what it means for an internal<br>component to have relationships such as =
powered-by or metered-by with<br>an external device.&nbsp; I think of =
components as drawing power from the chassis<br>they are part of, not =
directly from an external source.<br><br>--Bruce<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli =
(moulchan) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Benoit,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>[BC] - Is there =
something that can be done in the reference model that can't be done in =
the framework? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting =
&nbsp;(missed in the minutes)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>1.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal components =
(based on the Entity MIB). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows &#8211; flexible relations -&nbsp; poweredBy, =
meteredBy, ControledBy.&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There are scenarios &#8211; in which all of these functions can be =
performed by the same entity. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In some important cases, there are different entities doing these =
functions . </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benoit =
Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus =
[EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear =
all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>From the IETF =
82 meeting minutes, <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[BC] - Is =
there something that can be done in the reference model that can't be =
done in the framework? <o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[BN] - =
Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because of =
the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on =
net energy flow.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We would like to =
know if there are other things that this one (discussed in my previous =
email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] =
could not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framewo=
rk/</a>, the official EMAN document<br>[EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-mode=
l/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-refe=
rence-model/</a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the =
[EMAN-FMWK]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>eman mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br =
clear=3Dall><br>-- <br><b><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>Bruce =
Nordman</span></b><br><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley =
National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-=
486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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References: <4F4C174F.6000302@cisco.com> <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9741@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com> <CAK+eDP9oudFBrzEDwUguFthjB7uv1M36LW1YL1rXcJC55FmxLA@mail.gmail.com> <E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A907AE9706@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:27:09 -0800
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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Entire devices have power interfaces.  Devices can have components that
consume power and report their total consumption.  Power distribution insid=
e
a device is not modeled.  So, an entity for power reporting can be the
device,
an interface, or a component.
--Bruce

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

> I thought Reference model  - models entities with inlet and outlets.  ***=
*
>
> So, Power is measured at that granularity of  inlet and outlet =96 not at=
 a
> component level. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Mouli****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Bruce Nordman [mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM
> *To:* Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
> *Cc:* Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
> limitations?****
>
> ** **
>
> Just to clarify, the Reference Model assumes modeling of components with
> the Entity MIB as EMAN has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,
> there is no difference with the Framework on that.
>
> That said, I have often wondered about what it means for an internal
> component to have relationships such as powered-by or metered-by with
> an external device.  I think of components as drawing power from the
> chassis
> they are part of, not directly from an external source.
>
> --Bruce****
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <
> moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:****
>
> Benoit,****
>
>  ****
>
> As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, ****
>
>  ****
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework? ****
>
>  ****
>
> There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in the
> minutes)****
>
>  ****
>
> 1.       Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal
> components (based on the Entity MIB). ****
>
>  ****
>
> 2.       Framework allows =96 flexible relations -  poweredBy, meteredBy,
> ControledBy.  ****
>
> There are scenarios =96 in which all of these functions can be performed =
by
> the same entity.  ****
>
> In some important cases, there are different entities doing these
> functions . ****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mouli ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
> *To:* eman mailing list****
>
>
> *Subject:* [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?=
*
> ***
>
>  ****
>
> Dear all,****
>
>
>
> From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt****
>
> [BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
> can't be done in the framework? ****
>
> [BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because
> of the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on
> net energy flow.****
>
> We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
> in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the
> [EMAN-FMWK] could not?
>
> [EMAN-FMWK] =3D http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework=
/,
> the official EMAN document
> [EMAN-REF] =3D
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]****
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman****
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943****
>



--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2ed3c575fba204ba154526
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Entire devices have power interfaces.=A0 Devices can have components that<b=
r>consume power and report their total consumption.=A0 Power distribution i=
nside<br>a device is not modeled.=A0 So, an entity for power reporting can =
be the device,<br>
an interface, or a component.<br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"=
EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I thought Ref=
erence model =A0- models entities with inlet and outlets.=A0 <u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">So, Power is measured at =
that granularity of =A0inlet and outlet =96 not at a component level. <u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mouli<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
> Bruce Nordman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blan=
k">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mouli Chan=
dramouli (moulchan)<br><b>Cc:</b> Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing lis=
t<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] =
limitations?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just to clarify, the Re=
ference Model assumes modeling of components with<br>the Entity MIB as EMAN=
 has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,<br>
there is no difference with the Framework on that.<br><br>That said, I have=
 often wondered about what it means for an internal<br>component to have re=
lationships such as powered-by or metered-by with<br>an external device.=A0=
 I think of components as drawing power from the chassis<br>
they are part of, not directly from an external source.<br><br>--Bruce<u></=
u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, =
Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Benoit,</span><=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">As mentioned in the minut=
es of the IETF meeting, </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">[BC=
] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that can&#39=
;t be done in the framework? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:#1f497d">There were a couple of points I mentioned in the =
meeting =A0(missed in the minutes)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p><p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;co=
lor:#1f497d">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Framework=
 allows modeling the entities and its internal components (based on the Ent=
ity MIB). </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Framework allows =96 flexibl=
e relations -=A0 poweredBy, meteredBy, ControledBy.=A0 </span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">There are scenarios =96 in which all of these=
 functions can be performed by the same entity. =A0</span><u></u><u></u></p=
><p>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In some important cases, there are different ent=
ities doing these functions . </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thanks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mouli </span><u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=A0</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;"> <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benoit Claise (bclai=
se)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing =
list</span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><b>Subject:</b=
> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><=
br>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes, <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/82/minutes/eman.txt</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BC] - Is there something that=
 can be done in the reference model that can&#39;t be done in the framework=
? <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in =
the framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model in=
herently focuses on net energy flow.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed in=
 my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EM=
AN-FMWK] could not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/</a>, the official EMAN document<br=
>
[EMAN-REF] =3D <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-ema=
n-reference-model/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-quittek-eman-reference-model/</a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor=
 for the [EMAN-FMWK]<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><br>_______________________________________________<br>eman mailing list=
<br><a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br=
><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br><br clear=
=3D"all"><br>-- <br><b><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">Bruce Nordman</span=
></b><br><span style=3D"color:#000099">Lawrence Berkeley National Laborator=
y</span><br>
<a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/e=
a/nordman</a><br>BNordman@LBL.gov<br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"=
+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-5=
01-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br=
><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://=
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--047d7b2ed3c575fba204ba154526--

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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>, "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:02:55 +0000
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: the notion of importance
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 09:02:55AM +0000, Rolf Winter wrote:
 
> BTW, I don't think that priority means the order in which devices
> need to be powered up. It certainly doesnâ€™t mean that in the PoE
> context:

[...]

I also understood priority to be different from "power up order" but
this might all be just different interpretations of words. 

That said, experience tells me that knowing the proper power up order
is practically extremely useful and I would not mind being able to
tell a power distribution unit in which sequence and in which timing
order to power things up. I am not sure whether this is in any
requirements or other documents so I thought I write this message with
a new subject line.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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References: <4F4B6644.2030503@cisco.com> <CB71229C.206B9%brads@coraid.com><CAN40gSv6HDcFD6Sa+nj1JMXodYRmp4qYTOuz7WUV4iFFrR7vxg@mail.gmail.com><E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9740@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com><791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C83F@DAPHNIS.office.hd><E9B25823FA871E4AA9EDA7B163E5D8A9079F9748@XMB-RCD-106.cisco.com><791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502C97B@DAPHNIS.office.hd><EDCAE188ADBDC045AB6E7BC54D532C8A10C52FE3@xmb-sjc-21b.amer.cisco.com><791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502DEFE@DAPHNIS.office.hd><20120229104154.GA26677@elstar.local> <791AD3077F94194BB2BDD13565B6295D2502E22B@DAPHNIS.office.hd>
From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Rolf Winter" <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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Thread-Topic: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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From: "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>
To: "Bruce Nordman" <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)" <moulchan@cisco.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?
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"""

That said, I have often wondered about what it means for an internal
component to have relationships such as powered-by or metered-by with
an external device.=20

"""

=20

Ah this may the difference in thinking here. You're thinking in a view
from the device only and not the system.  So if you had 3 generators
powering 10 devices each you would only want to say that each device is
powered by its inlet chassis. What we are trying to do is ignore the
topology between the generator and 10 devices and know what happens if I
turn off a single generator what is affected. Which endpoints are
services by the 3 generators.

=20

To translate to networking terms. You're saying a client receive trading
data only from its interface. If I had 3 trading servers with 10 clients
connect we track the connection at layer 7 if you will between the
server and clients. So the relationship here would be
"getstradedatafrom".

=20

See the difference?

=20

Jp

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Bruce Nordman
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:43 PM
To: Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
Cc: eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK]
limitations?

=20

Just to clarify, the Reference Model assumes modeling of components with
the Entity MIB as EMAN has been assuming, so for reporting energy use,
there is no difference with the Framework on that.

That said, I have often wondered about what it means for an internal
component to have relationships such as powered-by or metered-by with
an external device.  I think of components as drawing power from the
chassis
they are part of, not directly from an external source.

--Bruce

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)
<moulchan@cisco.com> wrote:

Benoit,

=20

As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting,=20

=20

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

=20

There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting  (missed in the
minutes)

=20

1.       Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal
components (based on the Entity MIB).=20

=20

2.       Framework allows - flexible relations -  poweredBy, meteredBy,
ControledBy. =20

There are scenarios - in which all of these functions can be performed
by the same entity. =20

In some important cases, there are different entities doing these
functions .=20

=20

Thanks

Mouli=20

=20

=20

=20

From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benoit Claise (bclaise)
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 AM
To: eman mailing list


Subject: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus [EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?

=20

Dear all,



>From the IETF 82 meeting minutes,
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt

[BC] - Is there something that can be done in the reference model that
can't be done in the framework?=20

	[BN] - Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the
framework because of the parent/child relationships. Reference model
inherently focuses on net energy flow.

We would like to know if there are other things that this one (discussed
in my previous email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while
the [EMAN-FMWK] could not?

[EMAN-FMWK] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/, the official
EMAN document
[EMAN-REF] =3D
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-model/

Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the [EMAN-FMWK]


_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
eman@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman




--=20
Bruce Nordman
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>That =
said, I have often wondered about what it means for an =
internal<br>component to have relationships such as powered-by or =
metered-by with<br>an external device.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Ah this may =
the difference in thinking here. You&#8217;re thinking in a view from =
the device only and not the system.&nbsp; So if you had 3 generators =
powering 10 devices each you would only want to say that each device is =
powered by its inlet chassis. What we are trying to do is ignore the =
topology between the generator and 10 devices and know what happens if I =
turn off a single generator what is affected. Which endpoints are =
services by the 3 generators.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To translate =
to networking terms. You&#8217;re saying a client receive trading data =
only from its interface. If I had 3 trading servers with 10 clients =
connect we track the connection at layer 7 if you will between the =
server and clients. So the relationship here would be =
&#8220;getstradedatafrom&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>See the =
difference?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jp<span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Bruce Nordman<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:43 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Mouli Chandramouli (moulchan)<br><b>Cc:</b> eman =
mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus =
[EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Just to clarify, the Reference Model =
assumes modeling of components with<br>the Entity MIB as EMAN has been =
assuming, so for reporting energy use,<br>there is no difference with =
the Framework on that.<br><br>That said, I have often wondered about =
what it means for an internal<br>component to have relationships such as =
powered-by or metered-by with<br>an external device.&nbsp; I think of =
components as drawing power from the chassis<br>they are part of, not =
directly from an external source.<br><br>--Bruce<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Mouli Chandramouli =
(moulchan) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:moulchan@cisco.com">moulchan@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Benoit,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As mentioned in the minutes of the IETF meeting, =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>[BC] - Is there =
something that can be done in the reference model that can't be done in =
the framework? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There were a couple of points I mentioned in the meeting =
&nbsp;(missed in the minutes)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>1.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows modeling the entities and its internal components =
(based on the Entity MIB). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Framework allows &#8211; flexible relations -&nbsp; poweredBy, =
meteredBy, ControledBy.&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There are scenarios &#8211; in which all of these functions can be =
performed by the same entity. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In some important cases, there are different entities doing these =
functions . </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Mouli </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benoit =
Claise (bclaise)<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:23 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> eman mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> [eman] [EMAN-FMWK] versus =
[EMAN-REF]: [EMAN-FMWK] limitations?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear =
all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>From the IETF =
82 meeting minutes, <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[BC] - Is =
there something that can be done in the reference model that can't be =
done in the framework? <o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[BN] - =
Bidirectional supply issue is problematic in the framework because of =
the parent/child relationships. Reference model inherently focuses on =
net energy flow.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We would like to =
know if there are other things that this one (discussed in my previous =
email on the list), that the [EMAN-REF] could do while the [EMAN-FMWK] =
could not?<br><br>[EMAN-FMWK] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framework/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-framewo=
rk/</a>, the official EMAN document<br>[EMAN-REF] =3D <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-reference-mode=
l/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-quittek-eman-refe=
rence-model/</a><br><br>Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for the =
[EMAN-FMWK]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>eman mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br =
clear=3Dall><br>-- <br><b><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>Bruce =
Nordman</span></b><br><span style=3D'color:#000099'>Lawrence Berkeley =
National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" =
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href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>510-486-7089<br>=
m: 510-501-7943<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:26:24AM -0800, John Parello (jparello) wrote:
> Great we're making progress.
> 
> So you can understand that a bring up order and shut down order of devices is necessary. Now let's realize that an entire shut down or bring up of a site happens very infrequently.
> 
> What happens every day is that peak power demands cause sites to be billed 10-100 times their normal rate during very short periods mid day.
> 
> So what is a much more frequent case is a site will want to turn off things that are not importance. 
> 
> The bring up order and shut down order doesn't tell you that. So can we have a requirement  for a way to determine what this  since we have this already in dozens of systems and a use case that happens daily.
> 

So are you now talking about priority or importance or yet something
else? And are you in the right subject given the subject line? 

I think we are largely talking past each other here and we should
simply accept that words can often be understood in different ways and
hence it is important to be as clear as possible.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com>, Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@neclab.eu>, eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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--047d7b15add93c70c104ba1f0c3b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This ordering of powering up and down seems more about functionality than
energy management
to me, but I'll put that aside for the following questions.

-Are we talking about components or only entire devices?  I would think
entire devices, but I
 have learned to not assume such things. :)
-Are we speaking to setting the power state of the device, or to cut off
power and re-initiate power   supply?
  -Some PCs and Servers can be turned on remotely with a WOL packet or by
communication
    with a service processor out-of-band from the main system.
  -For devices with internal batteries, removing external power does not
itself change power state,
   another reason why power supply and power state are different.
-Is power-up order necessarily the reverse of power-down order?  Also,
timing would seem to be different.

--Bruce (as contributor)

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:26:24AM -0800, John Parello (jparello) wrote:
> > Great we're making progress.
> >
> > So you can understand that a bring up order and shut down order of
> devices is necessary. Now let's realize that an entire shut down or bring
> up of a site happens very infrequently.
> >
> > What happens every day is that peak power demands cause sites to be
> billed 10-100 times their normal rate during very short periods mid day.
> >
> > So what is a much more frequent case is a site will want to turn off
> things that are not importance.
> >
> > The bring up order and shut down order doesn't tell you that. So can we
> have a requirement  for a way to determine what this  since we have this
> already in dozens of systems and a use case that happens daily.
> >
>
> So are you now talking about priority or importance or yet something
> else? And are you in the right subject given the subject line?
>
> I think we are largely talking past each other here and we should
> simply accept that words can often be understood in different ways and
> hence it is important to be as clear as possible.
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>



-- 
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b15add93c70c104ba1f0c3b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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This ordering of powering up and down seems more about functionality than e=
nergy management<br>to me, but I&#39;ll put that aside for the following qu=
estions.<br><br>-Are we talking about components or only entire devices?=A0=
 I would think entire devices, but I<br>
=A0have learned to not assume such things. :)<br>-Are we speaking to settin=
g the power state of the device, or to cut off power and re-initiate power =
=A0 supply?=A0 <br>=A0 -Some PCs and Servers can be turned on remotely with=
 a WOL packet or by communication<br>
=A0=A0=A0 with a service processor out-of-band from the main system.<br>=A0=
 -For devices with internal batteries, removing external power does not its=
elf change power state,<br>=A0=A0 another reason why power supply and power=
 state are different.<br>
-Is power-up order necessarily the reverse of power-down order?=A0 Also, ti=
ming would seem to be different.<br><br>--Bruce (as contributor)<br><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Juergen Schoenwae=
lder <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-univers=
ity.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10=
:26:24AM -0800, John Parello (jparello) wrote:<br>
&gt; Great we&#39;re making progress.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So you can understand that a bring up order and shut down order of dev=
ices is necessary. Now let&#39;s realize that an entire shut down or bring =
up of a site happens very infrequently.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What happens every day is that peak power demands cause sites to be bi=
lled 10-100 times their normal rate during very short periods mid day.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So what is a much more frequent case is a site will want to turn off t=
hings that are not importance.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The bring up order and shut down order doesn&#39;t tell you that. So c=
an we have a requirement =A0for a way to determine what this =A0since we ha=
ve this already in dozens of systems and a use case that happens daily.<br>

&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>So are you now talking about priority or importance or yet something<=
br>
else? And are you in the right subject given the subject line?<br>
<br>
I think we are largely talking past each other here and we should<br>
simply accept that words can often be understood in different ways and<br>
hence it is important to be as clear as possible.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
/js<br>
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br=
>
Phone: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203587" value=3D"+494212003587">+49=
 421 200 3587</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany<br>
Fax: =A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203103" value=3D"+494212003103">+=
49 421 200 3103</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-univer=
sity.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=
=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">La=
wrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.go=
v/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

--047d7b15add93c70c104ba1f0c3b--

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Hi Rolf,

Just trying to get on the same page here. I use those terms in the
drafts based on the context of faults management. Here's an excerpt from
a classic networking book that nicely shows the difference.


"""
Performance and Fault Management
Paul Della Maggiora et all
Cisco Press
Nice Example of use of terms important, severity, priority
"""
As another example, you'll probably want to set different utilization
thresholds for LAN and WAN networks. Most network administrators set
fairly conservative thresholds for utilization on LANs because keeping
the LAN performance crisp is usually important and cost-effective.
However, WAN bandwidth is an expensive recurring charge and
administrators will often choose to allow higher utilization percentages
across these more expensive links. See the recommendations in Part II of
this book for what thresholds make sense for each media type.=20
You can use a combination of the importance of the interface or category
and the severity of the particular trigger to set the priority of the
event and, therefore, what attention the event should receive.=20
"""

The nouns (things in your inventory) have importance or category (some
classification)
The actions or acts have a severity
The messages or event have priority.

. Priority is overloaded in the PoE definition IMO and thus some
confusion. So that' why I added importance to the drafts. It's clearly a
categorization.

So do you see why a priority ordering is different than the inherent
importance of the device?

Happy to add something like this to the definitions so we are on the
same page
Jp






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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-REQ: power up order
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On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:06:58AM -0800, Bruce Nordman wrote:

> -Are we talking about components or only entire devices?  I would
> think entire devices, but I have learned to not assume such
> things. :)

Not sure what a component is either. ;-)

> -Are we speaking to setting the power state of the device, or to cut off
> power and re-initiate power supply?
>   -Some PCs and Servers can be turned on remotely with a WOL packet or by
> communication
>     with a service processor out-of-band from the main system.
>   -For devices with internal batteries, removing external power does not
> itself change power state,
>    another reason why power supply and power state are different.

My use case is a "smart power box" (not sure how to properly call
this) with (I hope to get this right) multiple power outlets that are
controlled by the smart power box. Assume the outlets supply power to
several different servers. If this "smart power box" powers up, I like
to be able to tell the box in which order and timing the servers start
to receive power. The power down case is for me less important since I
can tell the servers to shutdown and then power down the outlets of
the "smart power box". For the power-up scenario, unless there is a
magic third communication channel, I can't really control in which
order the servers boot up.

Perhaps this is something EMAN does not want to provide. But since the
term power-up order was brought up, I thought I make this an explicit
design decision to make.

> -Is power-up order necessarily the reverse of power-down order?
> Also, timing would seem to be different.

As explained above, I do not care much about the power-down in _my_
use case since I assume I can talk to device before powering them off.
For powering them up, this requires extra investments and complexities
so it would just be nice if a "smart power box" could provide the
needed functionality for me (and that increases my incentive to buy
one).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Subject: Re: [eman] Terms, importance, severity, priority...
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On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:49:26AM -0800, John Parello (jparello) wrote:
> Hi Rolf,
> 
> Just trying to get on the same page here. I use those terms in the
> drafts based on the context of faults management. Here's an excerpt from
> a classic networking book that nicely shows the difference.
> 
> 
> """
> Performance and Fault Management
> Paul Della Maggiora et all
> Cisco Press
> Nice Example of use of terms important, severity, priority
> """
> As another example, you'll probably want to set different utilization
> thresholds for LAN and WAN networks. Most network administrators set
> fairly conservative thresholds for utilization on LANs because keeping
> the LAN performance crisp is usually important and cost-effective.
> However, WAN bandwidth is an expensive recurring charge and
> administrators will often choose to allow higher utilization percentages
> across these more expensive links. See the recommendations in Part II of
> this book for what thresholds make sense for each media type. 
> You can use a combination of the importance of the interface or category
> and the severity of the particular trigger to set the priority of the
> event and, therefore, what attention the event should receive. 
> """
> 
> The nouns (things in your inventory) have importance or category (some
> classification)
> The actions or acts have a severity
> The messages or event have priority.
> 
> . Priority is overloaded in the PoE definition IMO and thus some
> confusion. So that' why I added importance to the drafts. It's clearly a
> categorization.
> 
> So do you see why a priority ordering is different than the inherent
> importance of the device?
> 
> Happy to add something like this to the definitions so we are on the
> same page

Now I am getting lost. What is now the definition of 'priority
ordering' and what is the definition of 'inherent importance'? How
does

> You can use a combination of the importance of the interface or category
> and the severity of the particular trigger to set the priority of the
> event and, therefore, what attention the event should receive.

help us in any way?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From bnordman@lbl.gov  Wed Feb 29 12:45:59 2012
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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I had originally understood that the concept of "domain" was used only to
refer
to power distribution trees, commonly from a central meter.  With this, I
agree that domain is a function of the wiring topology and therefore is
associated with power interfaces.  If, and only if, ALL power interfaces fo=
r
a device share the same domain, then the device itself is part of that
domain.
Note that this applies to power outlets as well as power inlets.  Thus, a
device
that IS the central meter (e.g. in a subpanel), is in fact not in the
domain as
the devices it supplies, as the power inlet to that device is in the domain
of
whatever power distribution tree supplies it.  Since it has interfaces in
different
domains, its domain would be undefined.

I now understand that "domain" as described here is to be used in any way
that the facility manager wants to, and while using it for the power
distribution
labeling will be a common usage (and so the above would apply), any
other usage is also possible.  In this definition, the entire device is in
a single
domain (which may be blank).  Interfaces and other components can be
seen as inheriting the domain value from the device they are a part of,
but this is duplicative, and since there will be other attributes that only
devices have, unnecessary.

It is worth noting that the management system can compute "power
distribution domains"
from its knowledge of wiring topology and where meters are located.

All of the above is independent of whether domain should be included or not=
.
At this point, it seems we have three variables with solely user-defined
meaning:
DomainName, RoleDescription, and Keywords.  It would seem helpful to be
able to consolidate these to fewer than three (Keywords seems the most
generic).  Further, I assume that all these only apply to entire devices,
not to
interfaces or other components.

--Bruce (as contributor)

2012/2/28 Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>

>  Hi Juergen,
>
>  Hi John,
>
> We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
> so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
> relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
> would be good for.
>
> Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
> have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
> that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
> on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
> powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line o=
r
> in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?
>
>  This is my understanding. Yes.
>
> Trying to bring all this together.
> The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:
>
> Energy Management Domain
>
> An Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all objects
> in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>
>
>
> For example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
> Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>
>
>
> For example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel wit=
h
> the same AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for whi=
ch
> there is one main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>
>
>
> NOTES:
>             1. Typically, this set will have as members all EO's that are
> powered from the same source
>
> If we add to that
> - "If all power interface of an energy object are in the same domain, the=
n
> it is safe to state that the entire energy object is in that domain."
> (proposed by Juergen)
> I would slightly rephrase this: "If all Energy Objects in the containment
> tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management Domain, then
> it is safe to state that the Energy Object at the root of that containmen=
t
> tree is in that Energy Management Domain ."
> - If we add to this, that, if you don't want to use the Energy Management
> Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in eoDomainName.
>
> Does it work?
>
> Now, let's come back to the initial problem:
>
> In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of a
> single Energy Management Domain"
>
> Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
> =93I don't think that this is a valid assumption. How do we address the c=
ase
> of an energy object which has redundant and diverse power sources for
> reliability, or an energy object which has access to alternative power
> sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to optimize
> cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not examples of different
> metering domains?=94
>
>  Distinguishing between a component and a device.
> - a component: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
> Domain."
>     We understand that this domain can change over the time.
> - a device: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
> Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) ar=
e
> part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it is safe to state that
> the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in that Energy
> Management Domain."
>
> Are we going in the right direction?
>
>
> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>
>  The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain should/need =
to
> be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
> questions "Who sets the domain on a devices?" and "Who reads the domain o=
f
> a device?".
>
> And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
> relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
> defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
> Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
> datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.
>
> Cheers,
>     Juergen
>
>
>
> On 27.02.12 17:51, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> <jparel=
lo@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
>  Hi Juergen,
>
> We seem to be discussing two concepts.
>
> The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another.
> So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
> sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
> Same pattern for metered by.
>
> The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
> a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
> relationships between them.
>
> I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
> covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domain
> needs to be defined.
>
> Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationships=
.
>
> Jp
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu <Quittek@neclab.eu>]
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
> To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>
> Hi John,
>
> I have two points:
> 1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in=
.
> 2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
>
> 1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
> object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
> power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
> desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
> domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
> device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
> energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
> object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
> would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
> would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
> use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
> names.
>
>
> 2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
> devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
> you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
> no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
> few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
> tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.
>
> In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
> to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
> one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
> the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one
> example.
>
>
> My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
> want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say=
,
> it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
> to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating things
> by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
> the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
> domains per power interface.
>
>    Juergen
>
>
>
> On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> <jparel=
lo@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
>  I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
> EMAN specification to keep things simple.
> I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can
> always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
> prevalent.
>
> While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
> power sources and each power source in a different management domain it's
> just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
> management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>
> To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
> with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
> community.
>
> Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
> the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
> Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
> roll up or combine the information anyway.
>
> So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
> this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
> The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
> are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
> Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
> data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>
> Jp
>
> PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org <eman-bounces@i=
etf.org>] On Behalf Of
> Juergen Quittek
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
> with redundant and diverse power sources.
>
> Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
> if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>
> Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
> rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.
>
> Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
> Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And our
> energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
> Bill pointed us to.
>
> And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
> object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
> energy object is in that domain.
>
> Thanks,
>    Juergen
>
> On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> <bclaise@cisco.com=
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>    Dear all,
>
>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>
>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>
>    =B3I don't think that this is a valid
>      assumption.
>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
>      and diverse
>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>      access to
>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>      between them
>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>      examples of
>      different metering domains?=B2
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>
>
>    Energy
>      Management Domain
>    An
>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>
>    For
>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>
>    For
>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>      with the same
>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
>      there is one
>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>
>    NOTES:
>
>    1.
>      Typically,
>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>      same source.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    Is this enough?
>
>    Please let us know.
>
>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>  _______________________________________________
> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eman mailing list
> eman@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2ed3c5a8866804ba206dd1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had originally understood that the concept of &quot;domain&quot; was used=
 only to refer<br>to power distribution trees, commonly from a central mete=
r.=A0 With this, I<br>agree that domain is a function of the wiring topolog=
y and therefore is<br>
associated with power interfaces.=A0 If, and only if, ALL power interfaces =
for<br>a device share the same domain, then the device itself is part of th=
at domain.<br>Note that this applies to power outlets as well as power inle=
ts.=A0 Thus, a device<br>
that IS the central meter (e.g. in a subpanel), is in fact not in the domai=
n as<br>the devices it supplies, as the power inlet to that device is in th=
e domain of <br>whatever power distribution tree supplies it.=A0 Since it h=
as interfaces in different<br>
domains, its domain would be undefined.<br><br>I now understand that &quot;=
domain&quot; as described here is to be used in any way<br>that the facilit=
y manager wants to, and while using it for the power distribution<br>labeli=
ng will be a common usage (and so the above would apply), any<br>
other usage is also possible.=A0 In this definition, the entire device is i=
n a single<br>domain (which may be blank).=A0 Interfaces and other componen=
ts can be<br>seen as inheriting the domain value from the device they are a=
 part of,<br>
but this is duplicative, and since there will be other attributes that only=
<br>devices have, unnecessary.<br><br>It is worth noting that the managemen=
t system can compute &quot;power distribution domains&quot;<br>from its kno=
wledge of wiring topology and where meters are located.<br>
<br>All of the above is independent of whether domain should be included or=
 not.<br>At this point, it seems we have three variables with solely user-d=
efined meaning:<br>DomainName, RoleDescription, and Keywords.=A0 It would s=
eem helpful to be<br>
able to consolidate these to fewer than three (Keywords seems the most<br>g=
eneric).=A0 Further, I assume that all these only apply to entire devices, =
not to<br>interfaces or other components.<br><br>--Bruce (as contributor)<b=
r>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/2/28 Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span><br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Hi Juergen,<div class=3D"im"><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>Hi John,=20

We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
would be good for.

Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line or
in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?</pre>
    </blockquote></div>
    This is my understanding. Yes.<br>
    <br>
    Trying to bring all this together.<br>
    The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:<div class=3D"im=
"><br>
    <h2 style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;ma=
rgin-left:42.9pt">Energy
      Management Domain</h2>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">An

      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all
      objects in the domain are considered one unit of management. </p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">=A0=
</p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">For

      example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
      Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">=A0</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">For example, all EEO&#39;s drawing powe=
r from the
      same distribution panel with the same AC voltage within a
      building, or all EEO&#39;s in a building for which there is one main
      meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain. </p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">=A0</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">NOTES: </p>
    =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1. Typically, this set will have as m=
embers all EO&#39;s
    that are powered from the same source<br>
    <br></div>
    If we add to that<br>
    - &quot;If all power interface of
    an energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state
    that the entire energy object is in that domain.&quot; (proposed by
    Juergen) <br>
    I would slightly rephrase this: &quot;If all Energy Objects in the
    containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy
    Management Domain, then it is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain .&quot;<br>
    - If we add to this, that, if you don&#39;t want to use the Energy
    Management Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in
    eoDomainName.<br>
    <br>
    Does it work?<br>
    <br>
    Now, let&#39;s come back to the initial problem:<br>
    <blockquote><div class=3D"im">In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read &=
quot;An Energy
      Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain&quot;<br>
      <br>
      Feedback received from Bill Mielke:<br>
      </div><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&q=
uot;">=93I don&#39;t think that this is a
        valid assumption. How do we address the case of an energy object
        which has redundant and diverse power sources for reliability,
        or an energy object which has access to alternative power
        sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to
        optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
        examples of different metering domains?=94</span> </blockquote>
    <div lang=3D"x-western">
     =20
     =20
     =20
    </div>
    Distinguishing between a component and a device.<br>
    - a component: &quot;An Energy Object is part of a single Energy
    Management Domain.&quot; <br>
    =A0=A0=A0 We understand that this domain can change over the time.<br>
    - a device: &quot;An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Managemen=
t
    Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see
    ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it
    is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain.&quot;<br>
    <br>
    Are we going in the right direction?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])<div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain shou=
ld/need to
be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
questions &quot;Who sets the domain on a devices?&quot; and &quot;Who reads=
 the domain of
a device?&quot;.

And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.

Cheers,
    Juergen



On 27.02.12 17:51, &quot;John Parello (jparello)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:jp=
arello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre>Hi Juergen,

We seem to be discussing two concepts.

The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another.
So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
Same pattern for metered by.

The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
relationships between them.

I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domain
needs to be defined.

Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationships.

Jp



-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Quittek [<a href=3D"mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu" target=3D"_blan=
k">mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu</a>]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi John,

I have two points:
1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in.
2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.

1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
names.


2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.

In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that&#39;s just one
example.


My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say,
it would be recommendable &quot;for a first version of the EMAN specificati=
on
to keep things simple&quot;. But if we spend the effort of complicating thi=
ngs
by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
domains per power interface.

   Juergen



On 24.02.12 19:00, &quot;John Parello (jparello)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:jp=
arello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <pre>I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first versi=
on of the
EMAN specification to keep things simple.
I don&#39;t disagree that this is possible it&#39;s just not practical.  Yo=
u can
always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
prevalent.

While it&#39;s a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
power sources and each power source in a different management domain it&#39=
;s
just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
management domains I&#39;ve yet to have anyone come across this.

To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
community. =20

Doesn&#39;t happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
roll up or combine the information anyway.

So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.

Jp

PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won&#39;t see it in practice.

-----Original Message-----
From: <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Juergen Quittek
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi all,

I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill&#39;s issue on devices
with redundant and diverse power sources.

Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.

Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.

Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
Bill&#39;s scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And o=
ur
energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
Bill pointed us to.

And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
energy object is in that domain.

Thanks,
   Juergen

On 24.02.12 15:20, &quot;Benoit Claise&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre>=20
=20
   Dear all,
  =20
   In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read &quot;An Energy Object is part o=
f
   a single Energy Management Domain&quot;
  =20
   Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
  =20
   =B3I don&#39;t think that this is a valid
     assumption.
     How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
     and diverse
     power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
     access to
     alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
     between them
     to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
     examples of
     different metering domains?=B2
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
   The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
  =20
  =20
   Energy
     Management Domain
   An
     Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
     all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
   =20
   For
     example, power distribution units and all of the attached
     Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
   =20
   For
     example, all EEO&#39;s drawing power from the same distribution panel
     with the same
     AC voltage within a building, or all EEO&#39;s in a building for which
     there is one
     main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
   =20
   NOTES:
  =20
   1.
     Typically,
     this set will have as members all EO&#39;s that are powered from the
     same source.
   =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
   Is this enough?
  =20
   Please let us know.
  =20
   Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
=20

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a>
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre></pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
eman mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b=
>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Be=
rkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nord=
man" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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From: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
To: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:58:26 -0600
Thread-Topic: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain
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Through the same methods as the relationship data are put into the EMAN
MIBs.

In future, it may be possible for this to be partially automated through
means as:
  http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nordman-power-locator/

--Bruce

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> This seems odd.  How would a management system know the wiring topology
> with present technology?
>
> "It is worth noting that the management system can compute "power
> distribution domains"
> from its knowledge of wiring topology and where meters are located."
>
>
>
>
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:45:48 -0600
> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Cc: eman mailing list <eman@ietf.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
> Energy Management Domain
>
> I had originally understood that the concept of "domain" was used only to
> refer
> to power distribution trees, commonly from a central meter.  With this, I
> agree that domain is a function of the wiring topology and therefore is
> associated with power interfaces.  If, and only if, ALL power interfaces
> for
> a device share the same domain, then the device itself is part of that
> domain.
> Note that this applies to power outlets as well as power inlets.  Thus, a
> device
> that IS the central meter (e.g. in a subpanel), is in fact not in the
> domain as
> the devices it supplies, as the power inlet to that device is in the
> domain of
> whatever power distribution tree supplies it.  Since it has interfaces in
> different
> domains, its domain would be undefined.
>
> I now understand that "domain" as described here is to be used in any way
> that the facility manager wants to, and while using it for the power
> distribution
> labeling will be a common usage (and so the above would apply), any
> other usage is also possible.  In this definition, the entire device is i=
n
> a single
> domain (which may be blank).  Interfaces and other components can be
> seen as inheriting the domain value from the device they are a part of,
> but this is duplicative, and since there will be other attributes that on=
ly
> devices have, unnecessary.
>
> It is worth noting that the management system can compute "power
> distribution domains"
> from its knowledge of wiring topology and where meters are located.
>
> All of the above is independent of whether domain should be included or
> not.
> At this point, it seems we have three variables with solely user-defined
> meaning:
> DomainName, RoleDescription, and Keywords.  It would seem helpful to be
> able to consolidate these to fewer than three (Keywords seems the most
> generic).  Further, I assume that all these only apply to entire devices,
> not to
> interfaces or other components.
>
> --Bruce (as contributor)
>
> 2012/2/28 Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>
>>  Hi Juergen,
>>
>>  Hi John,
>>
>> We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
>> so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
>> relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
>> would be good for.
>>
>> Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
>> have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
>> that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
>> on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
>> powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line =
or
>> in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?
>>
>>  This is my understanding. Yes.
>>
>> Trying to bring all this together.
>> The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:
>>
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> An Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all objects
>> in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
>> Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>> with the same AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building f=
or
>> which there is one main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domai=
n.
>>
>>
>>
>> NOTES:
>>             1. Typically, this set will have as members all EO's that ar=
e
>> powered from the same source
>>
>> If we add to that
>> - "If all power interface of an energy object are in the same domain,
>> then it is safe to state that the entire energy object is in that domain=
."
>> (proposed by Juergen)
>> I would slightly rephrase this: "If all Energy Objects in the containmen=
t
>> tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management Domain, the=
n
>> it is safe to state that the Energy Object at the root of that containme=
nt
>> tree is in that Energy Management Domain ."
>> - If we add to this, that, if you don't want to use the Energy Managemen=
t
>> Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in eoDomainName.
>>
>> Does it work?
>>
>> Now, let's come back to the initial problem:
>>
>> In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of a
>> single Energy Management Domain"
>>
>> Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>> =E2=80=9CI don't think that this is a valid assumption. How do we addres=
s the
>> case of an energy object which has redundant and diverse power sources f=
or
>> reliability, or an energy object which has access to alternative power
>> sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to optimize
>> cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not examples of differen=
t
>> metering domains?=E2=80=9D
>>
>>  Distinguishing between a component and a device.
>> - a component: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
>> Domain."
>>     We understand that this domain can change over the time.
>> - a device: "An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management
>> Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) a=
re
>> part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it is safe to state that
>> the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in that Energy
>> Management Domain."
>>
>> Are we going in the right direction?
>>
>>
>> Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>>
>>  The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain should/need=
 to
>> be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
>> questions "Who sets the domain on a devices?" and "Who reads the domain =
of
>> a device?".
>>
>> And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
>> relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
>> defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
>> Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
>> datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>     Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27.02.12 17:51, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> <jpare=
llo@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hi Juergen,
>>
>> We seem to be discussing two concepts.
>>
>> The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another=
.
>> So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
>> sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
>> Same pattern for metered by.
>>
>> The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
>> a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
>> relationships between them.
>>
>> I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
>> covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domai=
n
>> needs to be defined.
>>
>> Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationship=
s.
>>
>> Jp
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu <Quittek@neclab.eu>]
>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
>> To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I have two points:
>> 1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is i=
n.
>> 2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.
>>
>> 1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
>> object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
>> power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
>> desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
>> domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
>> device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
>> energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
>> object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
>> would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
>> would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This ma=
y
>> use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
>> names.
>>
>>
>> 2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind o=
f
>> devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
>> you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
>> no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
>> few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
>> tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.
>>
>> In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
>> to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
>> one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
>> the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that's just one
>> example.
>>
>>
>> My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we reall=
y
>> want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you sa=
y,
>> it would be recommendable "for a first version of the EMAN specification
>> to keep things simple". But if we spend the effort of complicating thing=
s
>> by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right fro=
m
>> the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
>> domains per power interface.
>>
>>    Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24.02.12 19:00, "John Parello (jparello)" <jparello@cisco.com> <jpare=
llo@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first version of the
>> EMAN specification to keep things simple.
>> I don't disagree that this is possible it's just not practical.  You can
>> always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
>> prevalent.
>>
>> While it's a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
>> power sources and each power source in a different management domain it'=
s
>> just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
>> management domains I've yet to have anyone come across this.
>>
>> To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
>> with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
>> community.
>>
>> Doesn't happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
>> the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
>> Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
>> roll up or combine the information anyway.
>>
>> So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
>> this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
>> The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
>> are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
>> Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since thi=
s
>> data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.
>>
>> Jp
>>
>> PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won't see it in practice.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: eman-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org <eman-bounces@=
ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
>> Juergen Quittek
>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
>> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
>> Energy Management Domain
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill's issue on devices
>> with redundant and diverse power sources.
>>
>> Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
>> if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.
>>
>> Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
>> rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.
>>
>> Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
>> Bill's scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And ou=
r
>> energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
>> Bill pointed us to.
>>
>> And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energ=
y
>> object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
>> energy object is in that domain.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>    Juergen
>>
>> On 24.02.12 15:20, "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com> <bclaise@cisco.co=
m> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    Dear all,
>>
>>    In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read "An Energy Object is part of
>>    a single Energy Management Domain"
>>
>>    Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
>>
>>    =C2=B3I don't think that this is a valid
>>      assumption.
>>      How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
>>      and diverse
>>      power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
>>      access to
>>      alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
>>      between them
>>      to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
>>      examples of
>>      different metering domains?=C2=B2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
>>
>>
>>    Energy
>>      Management Domain
>>    An
>>      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
>>      all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
>>
>>    For
>>      example, power distribution units and all of the attached
>>      Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
>>
>>    For
>>      example, all EEO's drawing power from the same distribution panel
>>      with the same
>>      AC voltage within a building, or all EEO's in a building for which
>>      there is one
>>      main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
>>
>>    NOTES:
>>
>>    1.
>>      Typically,
>>      this set will have as members all EO's that are powered from the
>>      same source.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    Is this enough?
>>
>>    Please let us know.
>>
>>    Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eman mailing list
>> eman@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

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Through the same methods as the relationship data are put into the EMAN MIB=
s.<br><br>In future, it may be possible for this to be partially automated =
through means as:<br>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-nordman-power-locator/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nordman-pow=
er-locator/</a><br>
<br>--Bruce<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:58 =
PM, Brad Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com=
">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br></div><div>This seems odd. =C2=
=A0How would a management system know the wiring topology with present tech=
nology?</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;bor=
der:none;padding:0px"><div>&quot;It is worth noting that the management sys=
tem can compute &quot;power distribution domains&quot;</div><div>from its k=
nowledge of wiring topology and where meters are located.&quot;</div>
</blockquote></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in=
;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px"><br>
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;=
margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span><span style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a>=
</span></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=
=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
<div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0=
in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-b=
ottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-=
bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:45:48 -0600=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> eman mailing list &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:=
 [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Management D=
omain<br></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div>I had orig=
inally understood that the concept of &quot;domain&quot; was used only to r=
efer<br>
to power distribution trees, commonly from a central meter.=C2=A0 With this=
, I<br>agree that domain is a function of the wiring topology and therefore=
 is<br>
associated with power interfaces.=C2=A0 If, and only if, ALL power interfac=
es for<br>a device share the same domain, then the device itself is part of=
 that domain.<br>Note that this applies to power outlets as well as power i=
nlets.=C2=A0 Thus, a device<br>

that IS the central meter (e.g. in a subpanel), is in fact not in the domai=
n as<br>the devices it supplies, as the power inlet to that device is in th=
e domain of <br>whatever power distribution tree supplies it.=C2=A0 Since i=
t has interfaces in different<br>

domains, its domain would be undefined.<br><br>I now understand that &quot;=
domain&quot; as described here is to be used in any way<br>that the facilit=
y manager wants to, and while using it for the power distribution<br>labeli=
ng will be a common usage (and so the above would apply), any<br>

other usage is also possible.=C2=A0 In this definition, the entire device i=
s in a single<br>domain (which may be blank).=C2=A0 Interfaces and other co=
mponents can be<br>seen as inheriting the domain value from the device they=
 are a part of,<br>

but this is duplicative, and since there will be other attributes that only=
<br>devices have, unnecessary.<br><br>It is worth noting that the managemen=
t system can compute &quot;power distribution domains&quot;<br>from its kno=
wledge of wiring topology and where meters are located.<br>
<br>All of the above is independent of whether domain should be included or=
 not.<br>At this point, it seems we have three variables with solely user-d=
efined meaning:<br>DomainName, RoleDescription, and Keywords.=C2=A0 It woul=
d seem helpful to be<br>

able to consolidate these to fewer than three (Keywords seems the most<br>g=
eneric).=C2=A0 Further, I assume that all these only apply to entire device=
s, not to<br>interfaces or other components.<br><br>--Bruce (as contributor=
)<br>
<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/2/28 Benoit Claise <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclais=
e@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><div><div class=3D"h5">
    Hi Juergen,<div><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>Hi John,=20

We are not discussing different concepts.  At least no concepts that are
so far away from each other.  I am not at all discussing device
relationships.  But maybe we disagree on what a domain is and what it
would be good for.

Similar to you, I see a domain as a mean for grouping devices.  But we
have not yet defined what a group serves for.  One of my assumptions was
that the energy management system would have functions to report and act
on a domain, such as reporting total energy and power for a domain,
powering a domain to a lower energy state, etc.  Is this rather in line or
in conflict with your notion of the domain concept?</pre>
    </blockquote></div>
    This is my understanding. Yes.<br>
    <br>
    Trying to bring all this together.<br>
    The proposal at the beginning of this email thread was:<div><br>
    <h2 style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;ma=
rgin-left:42.9pt">Energy
      Management Domain</h2>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">An

      Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where all
      objects in the domain are considered one unit of management. </p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">=C2=
=A0</p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:0cm;margin-left:42.6pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">For

      example, power distribution units and all of the attached Energy
      Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">=C2=A0</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">For example, all EEO&#39;s drawing powe=
r from the
      same distribution panel with the same AC voltage within a
      building, or all EEO&#39;s in a building for which there is one main
      meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain. </p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">=C2=A0</p>
    <p style=3D"margin-top:0cm;margin-right:74.9pt;margin-bottom:0cm;margin=
-left:42.9pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">NOTES: </p>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1. T=
ypically, this set will have as members all EO&#39;s
    that are powered from the same source<br>
    <br></div>
    If we add to that<br>
    - &quot;If all power interface of
    an energy object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state
    that the entire energy object is in that domain.&quot; (proposed by
    Juergen) <br>
    I would slightly rephrase this: &quot;If all Energy Objects in the
    containment tree (see ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy
    Management Domain, then it is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain .&quot;<br>
    - If we add to this, that, if you don&#39;t want to use the Energy
    Management Domain , you can just put a zero-length string in
    eoDomainName.<br>
    <br>
    Does it work?<br>
    <br>
    Now, let&#39;s come back to the initial problem:<br>
    <blockquote><div>In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read &quot;An Energ=
y
      Object is part of a single Energy Management Domain&quot;<br>
      <br>
      Feedback received from Bill Mielke:<br>
      </div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
">=E2=80=9CI don&#39;t think that this is a
        valid assumption. How do we address the case of an energy object
        which has redundant and diverse power sources for reliability,
        or an energy object which has access to alternative power
        sources with the ability to dynamically switch between them to
        optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
        examples of different metering domains?=E2=80=9D</span> </blockquot=
e>    <div lang=3D"x-western">
     =20
     =20
     =20
    </div>
    Distinguishing between a component and a device.<br>
    - a component: &quot;An Energy Object is part of a single Energy
    Management Domain.&quot; <br>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We understand that this domain can change over the t=
ime.<br>
    - a device: &quot;An Energy Object is part of a single Energy Managemen=
t
    Domain. If all Energy Objects in the containment tree (see
    ENTITY-MIB) are part of the same Energy Management Domain, then it
    is safe to state
    that the Energy Object at the root of that containment tree is in
    that Energy Management Domain.&quot;<br>
    <br>
    Are we going in the right direction?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit (as a contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])</div></div><div><div=
><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
      <pre>The second point to be addressed is whether or not a domain shou=
ld/need to
be stored on the member device.  This question is linked with the
questions &quot;Who sets the domain on a devices?&quot; and &quot;Who reads=
 the domain of
a device?&quot;.

And yes, it does not necessarily have anything to do with a powering
relationship.  However, sometimes it may be a good idea having a domain
defined as the set of all devices in the same power distribution tree.
Then you can report on that tree separate from others.  This leads to my
datacenter scenario, where it may make sense to have domains per phase.

Cheers,
    Juergen



On 27.02.12 17:51, &quot;John Parello (jparello)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:jp=
arello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      </div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
        <pre>Hi Juergen,

We seem to be discussing two concepts.

The power by relationship is used to indicate what devices power another.
So that s a link from the supply to an inlet. That can have multiple
sources and that relationship is many to one. Power source to powered.
Same pattern for metered by.

The domain is a set of devices that defines and area of management. Like
a PC domain (windows) or community. This does not indicate the
relationships between them.

I would agree to removing domain if perhaps the concept of the domain is
covered by SNMP community. In the absence of SNMP the concept of a domain
needs to be defined.

Again  it has nothing to do with the poweredby or meteredby relationships.

Jp



-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Quittek [<a href=3D"mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu" target=3D"_blan=
k">mailto:Quittek@neclab.eu</a>]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:57 AM
To: John Parello (jparello); Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi John,

I have two points:
1. I do not see a strong need to store on a devices which domain it is in.
2. I do indeed observe the need for having devices in two domains.

1. Why would you store the domain a device is in on the device in a MIB
object?  This is potentially dynamic information.  Whenever I change the
power supply of a server from phase 1 to phase 2, or whenever I move a
desktop phone from one wing of the building to another, I may have a
domain change.  If we have a UUID for the device, it is easy to detect a
device, identify it and map it to a proper domain in the database of the
energy management system.  Why then would I need to have a writable MIB
object where I can store the new domain the device has moved in?  Who
would do this wrork?  The technician moving the phone?  A management Who
would read this information?  Another energy management system?  This may
use different domains and create conflicts when setting its own domain
names.


2. the need for having devices in multiple domains depends on the kind of
devices you manage and the operational objectives of the operator.  If
you have just devices with single power supply, then obviously, there is
no need for memberships in multiple domains.  Also, if you just have a
few dual power servers and a generously provisioned power distribution
tree, you may not have a need to care about multiple domains.

In datacenters, the story is different.  One of the objectives there is
to balance between the three phases and it makes perfectly sense to have
one domain per phase.  Here you switch power supply from one domain to
the other in order to have the phases balanced.  And that&#39;s just one
example.


My conclusion from point 1 and 2 is that I would re-consider if we really
want to add the complexity of storing a domain on the device?  As you say,
it would be recommendable &quot;for a first version of the EMAN specificati=
on
to keep things simple&quot;. But if we spend the effort of complicating thi=
ngs
by storing domain information on devices, then we should do it right from
the beginning, cover use cases raised on the mailing list, and support
domains per power interface.

   Juergen



On 24.02.12 19:00, &quot;John Parello (jparello)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:jp=
arello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;jparello@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        </div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
          <pre>I advise keeping the objects in one domain for a first versi=
on of the
EMAN specification to keep things simple.
I don&#39;t disagree that this is possible it&#39;s just not practical.  Yo=
u can
always enhance the data model in a revision later if this becomes
prevalent.

While it&#39;s a nice mental exercise to think of a device with redundant
power sources and each power source in a different management domain it&#39=
;s
just not prevalent in practice. After  years of setting up energy
management domains I&#39;ve yet to have anyone come across this.

To put this in network management terms it would be like having a switch
with each power supply managed via SNMP but each within a different
community. =20

Doesn&#39;t happen. You just put the power sources in the same instance and
the redundant power suppliers would be in the same management domain.
Worse case if they are in different communities a management app will
roll up or combine the information anyway.

So please keep this simple so that it can actually be used. If you put
this in management apps will have to code and check for this complexity.
The management apps will have to check to see if all outlets / children
are in the same domain and then declare membership of the parent.
Assuming the other way around makes it much simpler especially since this
data is rolled up to context and keywords more practically.

Jp

PS Any takers on a  $1 wager  you won&#39;t see it in practice.

-----Original Message-----
From: <a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mailto:eman-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Juergen Quittek
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); eman mailing list
Subject: Re: [eman] EMAN-FMWK: An Energy Object is part of a single
Energy Management Domain

Hi all,

I would have an alternative proposal to solve Bill&#39;s issue on devices
with redundant and diverse power sources.

Having an only entire devices (aka Energy Objects) may lead to problems
if the energy object has multiple power inlets from different domains.

Instead of having entire energy objects as domain members, we should
rather have memberships for the power interfaces of the energy objects.

Then a single energy object can have different power Interfaces (in
Bill&#39;s scenario: power inlets) being member of different domains. And o=
ur
energy management model would exactly match the real world scenario that
Bill pointed us to.

And we can easily add this corollary: If all power interface of an energy
object are in the same domain, then it is safe to state that the entire
energy object is in that domain.

Thanks,
   Juergen

On 24.02.12 15:20, &quot;Benoit Claise&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
          </div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre><div><div class=3D"h5">=20
=20
   Dear all,
  =20
   In the current [EMAN-FMWK], we can read &quot;An Energy Object is part o=
f
   a single Energy Management Domain&quot;
  =20
   Feedback received from Bill Mielke:
  =20
   =C2=B3I don&#39;t think that this is a valid
     assumption.
     How do we address the case of an energy object which has redundant
     and diverse
     power sources for reliability, or an energy object which has
     access to
     alternative power sources with the ability to dynamically switch
     between them
     to optimize cost and/or carbon footprint impacts. Are these not
     examples of
     different metering domains?=C2=B2
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
   The Energy Domain definition has been updated, with some example
  =20
  =20
   Energy
     Management Domain
   An
     Energy Management Domain is a set of Energy Objects where
     all objects in the domain are considered one unit of management.
   =20
   For
     example, power distribution units and all of the attached
     Energy Objects are part of the same Energy Management Domain.
   =20
   For
     example, all EEO&#39;s drawing power from the same distribution panel
     with the same
     AC voltage within a building, or all EEO&#39;s in a building for which
     there is one
     main meter, would comprise an Energy Management Domain.
   =20
   NOTES:
  =20
   1.
     Typically,
     this set will have as members all EO&#39;s that are powered from the
     same source.
   =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
   Is this enough?
  =20
   Please let us know.
  =20
   Regards, Benoit. (contributor for [EMAN-FMWK])
=20

_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
</div></div><a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.or=
g</a><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>_______________________________________________
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre></pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div><div class=3D"im"><br>_________________________________=
______________<br>eman mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ema=
n</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"im"><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--=
 <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"htt=
p://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><=
br>

<a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><=
br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">51=
0-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
<br></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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I agree this should be closed ASAP.

To try to summarize, we have a definition of Power Quality in:
   http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-parello-eman-definitions/
that reads (emphasis added by me):
Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a given
point in
an electric power system, *evaluated against a set of reference technical
parameters*.
These parameters might, in some cases,relate to the compatibility between
electricity
supplied in an electric power system and the loads connected to that
electric power system.
Further, there are 24 MIB variables with Quality as part of their name in:


            eoACPwrQualityConfiguration       INTEGER,
            eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage          Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent          Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityFrequency           Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier UnitMultiplier,
            eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy       Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower    Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower  Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower  Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor    Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres         Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage          Integer32
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent      Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower     Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower   Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower   Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor     Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance       Integer32
            eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage      Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage   Integer32,
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent                   Integer32
                eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage       Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent                Integer32,
                eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage    Integer32

As the definition of power quality makes clear, these are "characteristics"=
.
By my reading, they become "power quality" when "*evaluated against a set
of reference technical parameters*. "
It seems to me that EMAN does not contain "reference technical parameters"
and does no evaluation.
Outside of the scope of EMAN, some management systems may have such
reference parameters and may do such evaluations.

Finally, I see no advantages to including the definition and the use of the
term
quality.  I see definite disadvantages.  No implementation will ever be
different
based on the outcome of this decision.

A simple solution is to simply drop the word Quality out of these MIB names=
,
at which point the definition becomes unnecessary to include.

--Bruce


On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>  Bruce, Brad,
>
> Can we please close this issue.
>
> Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor for  the EMAN-FMWK)
>
>  Hi Bruce,
>
>  My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit reference point
> or ratio with three additional attributes are informational for the table=
:
> Configuration, UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.
>
>  Which attributes are you having an issue with?
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Brad
>
>   Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> R=
edefining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:28:25 -0600
> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:
>
>>   Hi Bruce,
>>
>>  Your statement here is incorrect.  If you carefully review the details,
>> you will see that the majority of these attributes incorporate a referen=
ce
>> point.  For example, total harmonic distortion is a ratio of the distort=
ion
>> relative to the reference frequency.  Or consider, power factor which is=
 a
>> ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where real power is the
>> reference point.
>>
>
> Below I have extracted the 24 entries in draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
> that are labeled "PwrQuality".  The interested reader can count how many =
of
> these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting context.
>
> --Bruce
>
>         powerACPwrQualityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                              eoACPwrQualityConfiguration,
>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage,
>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent,
>                              eoACPwrQualityFrequency,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
>                              eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres,
>                              eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage
>         powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,
>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance
>         powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage ,
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage,
>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent
>         powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage,
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent,
>                             eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage
>
>>
>>  Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power (wasted energy) are
>> 'power quality' characteristics.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Brad
>>
>>   Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> =
Redefining
>> Storage Economics
>>
>>
>>
>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600
>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>>  It seems to me that the definition of power quality
>> implies a reference point for evaluating quality
>> that is absent in the EMAN context - making it
>> unsuitable to reference.
>> There is actually no need to reference the term
>> "power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore
>> no need to have a definition for it.
>> While it would be best to not use the term at all in
>> the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power
>> characteristics would likely not mislead people, but
>> this would not require a definition.
>> The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"
>> in many of the entries.  These can simply be changed
>> to "Power".
>> Problem solved.
>> --Bruce
>>
>>  On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>wrote=
:
>>
>>>  Hi Brad,
>>>
>>>   Benoit,
>>>
>>>  I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning of 'power
>>> quality' and put this issue to rest.
>>>
>>>  I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Brad Schoening
>>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>
>>>
>>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/>=
 Redefining
>>> Storage Economics
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
>>> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
>>> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>
>>>   Dear all,
>>>
>>> I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem
>>> description (if any), as there is some confusion.
>>> According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine an=
d
>>> the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.
>>>
>>> Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module
>>> contains at the same time:
>>> - "power quality" variables
>>> - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of
>>> reference technical parameters"? Example: current
>>> Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the
>>> [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>>>
>>> Please let us know.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>
>>>  Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>>  I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories.,
>>> 1, 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much a=
d
>>> hoc .
>>>
>>>  In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>>
>>>
>>>    Power Quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>>
>>>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>>>
>>>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>>>
>>>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>>
>>>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>>
>>>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>>>
>>>        connected to that electric power system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        Reference: [IEC60050<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-em=
an-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>
>>> ]
>>>
>>>
>>>  This seems both adequate and clear.
>>>  The EMAN requirements draft states:
>>>
>>>   Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
>>> frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and current, =
the
>>> impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>>>
>>>
>>>  That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>>>
>>>
>>>  The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are
>>> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and
>>> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality
>>> characteristic.
>>>
>>>
>>>           +------------------+--------------------+
>>>
>>>          |         ACQuality                     |
>>>
>>>          |---------------------------------------|
>>>
>>>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>>>
>>>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>>>
>>>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>>>
>>>          | frequency    : long                   |
>>>
>>>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>>>
>>>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>>>
>>>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>>>
>>>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>>>
>>>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>>>
>>>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>>>
>>>          +---------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>           +------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>          |         ACPhase                    |
>>>
>>>          |------------------------------------|
>>>
>>>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>>>
>>>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>>>
>>>          | activePower : long                 |
>>>
>>>          | reactivePower : long               |
>>>
>>>          | apparentPower : long               |
>>>
>>>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>>>
>>>          +------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>           +-------------------------------+---+
>>>
>>>          |        DelPhase                   |
>>>
>>>          |-----------------------------------|
>>>
>>>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>>>
>>>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>>>
>>>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>>>
>>>          +-----------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>           +------------------+-----------+
>>>
>>>          |        WYEPhase              |
>>>
>>>          |------------------------------|
>>>
>>>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>>>
>>>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>>>
>>>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>>>
>>>          +------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting.
>>> Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>
>>>
>>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/>=
 Redefining
>>> Storage Economics
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>>> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
>>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>
>>>  Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality
>>> definition is 2.
>>> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, I
>>> don't
>>> think using it works.
>>>
>>> The Requirements draft (
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
>>> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of
>>> power.
>>>
>>> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other tha=
n
>>> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
>>> and current.
>>>
>>> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The
>>> requirements
>>> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear
>>> enough on their
>>> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly
>>> specific information.
>>>
>>> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power quality",
>>> and so not
>>> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term, alon=
g
>>> with
>>> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>>>
>>> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that matche=
s
>>> how
>>> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall
>>> phrase to
>>> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a "Other=
"
>>> or "Miscellaneous"
>>> grouping.
>>>
>>> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except possibly
>>> the Monitoring MIB
>>> draft (
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
>>> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a
>>> problem if Power Quality
>>> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it as
>>> we use it - all
>>> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like
>>> 'additional',
>>> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>>>
>>> --Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>wrote=
:
>>>
>>>>  Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> From the meeting minutes (
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>>>
>>>> Three categories of power quality:
>>>> 1. Nominal power supply
>>>> 2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>>>> 3. Power usage
>>>>
>>>> [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Po=
wer
>>>> quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are consideri=
ng
>>>> would be considered more generally additional power characteristics th=
an
>>>> power quality.
>>>>
>>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of =
Power
>>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>
>>>>  So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04 covers
>>>> correctly "2.", right?
>>>> So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>>>
>>>> At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>>> implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>>>
>>>> My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>>>> a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>>> usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>>> Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>>> and independent of any usage context.
>>>> For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>>> measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>>> there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>>>> suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>>>> mean different things.
>>>>
>>>> --Bruce
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <
>>>> jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if there was =
a
>>>>> request to change the term "power quality" to "power characteristics"
>>>>>
>>>>> I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the term "powe=
r
>>>>> quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no such term a=
s
>>>>> "power characteristics"
>>>>>
>>>>> The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=3D617=
-01-0
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>> """
>>>>> Power Quality
>>>>> Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a
>>>>> given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a set of
>>>>> reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in some cases=
,
>>>>> relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in an electr=
ic
>>>>> power system and the loads connected to that electric power system.
>>>>> """
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the method o=
f
>>>>> definition is that we take from a source directly at first. I see no
>>>>> source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a quick search
>>>>> on
>>>>> how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers more times o=
n
>>>>> how a device uses power.
>>>>>
>>>>> So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical
>>>>> characteristics
>>>>> (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however  more common=
ly
>>>>> refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and the 50W at=
 a
>>>>> steady state over time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So while the minutes state this...
>>>>> """
>>>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of
>>>>> Power
>>>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no objections=
.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>>>> - Power State Set
>>>>> - Energy Object Relationship
>>>>>
>>>>> [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>>>> """
>>>>>
>>>>> Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>>>> characteristics" are two distinct terms and not  interchangeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050 and if need=
ed
>>>>> I can add "power characteristics" as described above if someone has a
>>>>> reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feedback?
>>>>> Jp
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> eman mailing list
>>>>> eman@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>>> 510-486-7089
>>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/em=
an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>> 510-486-7089
>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Bruce Nordman*
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2e090d30b4bb04ba21d251
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree this should be closed ASAP.<br><br>To try to summarize, we have a d=
efinition of Power Quality in:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-parello-eman-definitions/">http://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-parello-eman-definitions/</a><br>
that reads (emphasis added by me):<br><div style=3D"margin-left:40px">Chara=
cteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a given poin=
t in <br>an electric power system, <b>evaluated against a set of reference =
technical parameters</b>. <br>
These parameters might, in some cases,relate to the compatibility between e=
lectricity <br>supplied in an electric power system and the loads connected=
 to that electric power system.<br></div>Further, there are 24 MIB variable=
s with Quality as part of their name in:<br>
=C2=A0 <br><pre>            eoACPwrQualityConfiguration       INTEGER, =20
            eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage          Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent          Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityFrequency           Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier UnitMultiplier,=20
            eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy       Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower    Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower  Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower  Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor    Integer32,    =20
            eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres         Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage          Integer32 <br>               =
 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent      Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower     Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower   Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower   Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor     Integer32,    =20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance       Integer32  <br>         =
   eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage      Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage   Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent                   Integer32 <br>   =
             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage       Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent                Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage    Integer32 <br>=
</pre>As the definition of power quality makes clear, these are &quot;chara=
cteristics&quot;.<br>By my reading, they become &quot;power quality&quot; w=
hen &quot;<b>evaluated against a set of reference technical parameters</b>.=
 &quot;<br>
It seems to me that EMAN does not contain &quot;reference technical paramet=
ers&quot;<br>and does no evaluation.<br>Outside of the scope of EMAN, some =
management systems may have such<br>reference parameters and may do such ev=
aluations.<br>
<br>Finally, I see no advantages to including the definition and the use of=
 the term<br>quality.=C2=A0 I see definite disadvantages.=C2=A0 No implemen=
tation will ever be different<br>based on the outcome of this decision.<br>=
<br>A simple solution is to simply drop the word Quality out of these MIB n=
ames,<br>
at which point the definition becomes unnecessary to include.<br><br>--Bruc=
e<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Be=
noit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bcla=
ise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Bruce, Brad,<br>
    <br>
    Can we please close this issue.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor for=C2=A0 the EMAN-FMWK)<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div style>
        <div>
          <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit
            reference point or ratio with three additional attributes
            are informational for the table: Configuration,
            UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Which attributes are you having an issue with?</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Regards,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Brad</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Sch=
oening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>

                </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@c=
oraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7=
190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span=
></span></p>

              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"=
><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:part1.04020604.04010703@cisco.com=
" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D=
"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=
=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>

              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div style><br>
      </div>
      <span>
        <div style=3D"border-bottom-width:medium;padding-left:0in;padding-r=
ight:0in;padding-top:3pt;border-top-style:solid;text-align:left;border-righ=
t-style:none;padding-bottom:0in;border-bottom-color:initial;border-top-widt=
h:1pt;border-bottom-style:none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-lef=
t-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-left-style:none;font-size=
:11pt;border-right-width:medium;font-family:Calibri;border-left-width:mediu=
m">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 22 Feb 2012
          12:28:25 -0600<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@c=
oraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;,
          &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@iet=
f.org</a>&quot;
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div style><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad
          Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr" style>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@cor=
aid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left:1ex;margi=
n-right:0px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;border-left-width:1px">
            <div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Your statement here is incorrect. =C2=A0If you
                    carefully review the details, you will see that the
                    majority of these attributes incorporate a reference
                    point. =C2=A0For example, total harmonic distortion is =
a
                    ratio of the distortion relative to the reference
                    frequency. =C2=A0Or consider, power factor which is a
                    ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where
                    real power is the reference point.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
            Below I have extracted the 24 entries in
            draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05 <br>
            that are labeled &quot;PwrQuality&quot;.=C2=A0 The interested r=
eader can
            count how many of<br>
            these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting
            context.<br>
            <br>
            --Bruce<br>
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityMIB=
TableGroup OBJECT-GROUP<br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityConfiguration, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityFrequency, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityPha=
seMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityDel=
PhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage , <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityWye=
PhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage <br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left:1ex;margi=
n-right:0pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;margin-bottom:0pt;margin-top:0pt;border-left-width:1px">
            <div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power
                    (wasted energy) are &#39;power quality&#39; characteris=
tics.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Regards,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Brad</div>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
">Brad
                            Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:14px"><br>
                          </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailt=
o:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=
=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>

                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
"><br>

                          </span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decora=
tion:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description:
                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png"=
 border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage
                            Economics</span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <span>
                <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;pa=
dding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom=
:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-botto=
m:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce
                  Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D=
"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 20
                  Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Brad
                  Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;,
                  &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
eman@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                      <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>
                      Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power
                      Characteristics<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    It seems to me that the definition of power quality<br>
                    implies a reference point for evaluating quality<br>
                    that is absent in the EMAN context - making it<br>
                    unsuitable to reference.<br>
                    There is actually no need to reference the term<br>
                    &quot;power quality&quot; at all in the drafts, and the=
refore<br>
                    no need to have a definition for it.<br>
                    While it would be best to not use the term at all in<br=
>
                    the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of
                    power <br>
                    characteristics would likely not mislead people, but<br=
>
                    this would not require a definition.<br>
                    The monitoring MIB draft does use &quot;PwrQuality&quot=
;<br>
                    in many of the entries.=C2=A0 These can simply be chang=
ed<br>
                    to &quot;Power&quot;.<br>
                    Problem solved.<br>
                    --Bruce<br>
                    <br>
                    <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                      On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bcla=
ise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Hi Brad,
                          <div><br>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>Benoit,</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>I hope that the terminology draft
                                    has clarified the meaning of &#39;power
                                    quality&#39; and put this issue to
                                    rest.=C2=A0 <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue
                          close.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regards, Benoit.
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:14px"><br>

                                          </span><span style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0=
<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> =
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173=
047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>

                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px"><br>

                                          </span></p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size=
:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"colo=
r:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"De=
scription:
                                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" ty=
pe=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining
                                            Storage Economics</span></p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=
=A0</span></p>

                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <span>
                                  <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;pa=
dding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:=
11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt s=
olid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:
                                    </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date:
                                    </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21
                                    -0600<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </=
span>
                                    Brad Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br=
ads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </=
span>
                                    Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bno=
rdman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;,

                                    &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subjec=
t:
                                    </span> Re: [eman] Power Quality
                                    versus Power Characteristics<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#00000=
0"> Dear all,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      I would like appreciate if someone
                                      could rephrase the problem
                                      description (if any), as there is
                                      some confusion.<br>
                                      According to this email thread,
                                      the power quality definition is
                                      fine and the EMAN requirements
                                      draft is in line with this
                                      definition.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Is the problem that the
                                      eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN
                                      monitoring MIB module contains at
                                      the same time:<br>
                                      - &quot;power quality&quot; variables=
<br>
                                      - non &quot;power quality&quot; varia=
bles,
                                      i.e not &quot;evaluated against a set
                                      of reference technical
                                      parameters&quot;? Example: current<br=
>
                                      Hence the table name should NOT
                                      contain &quot;Power Quality&quot; and=
 the
                                      [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to
                                      be updated.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Please let us know.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Regards, Benoit.<br>
                                      <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"=
></span>
                                      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Hi
                                              Bruce,</div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
                                              don&#39;t understand the
                                              context for choosing those
                                              three categories., 1, 2
                                              &amp; 3 or how they were
                                              derived? =C2=A0These categori=
es
                                              seem pretty much ad hoc .</di=
v>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal nor=
mal 12px/normal Courier">In

                                                    contrast, our EMAN
                                                    Terminology states,
                                                    directly quoting IEC
                                                    60050:</p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Courier;font-size:12px"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
parello-eman-definitions-04" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica">
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0Power
                                                    Quality</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Char=
acteristics
                                                    of the electric
                                                    current, voltage and</p=
>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0freq=
uencies at a
                                                    given point in an
                                                    electric power</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0syst=
em,
                                                    evaluated against a
                                                    set of reference
                                                    technical</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0para=
meters.
                                                    These parameters
                                                    might, in some
                                                    cases,</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0rela=
te to the
                                                    compatibility
                                                    between electricity</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0supp=
lied in an
                                                    electric power
                                                    system and the loads</p=
>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0conn=
ected to
                                                    that electric power
                                                    system.</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reference=
: [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#=
ref-IEC60050" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline;co=
lor:rgb(22,54,238)">IEC60050</span></a>]</p>

                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal nor=
mal 12px/normal Courier"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><font size=3D"=
3">This seems both adequate and
                                                        clear.=C2=A0</font>=
</span></p>
                                                  <span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Calibri"></span></span></span></div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">The

                                              EMAN requirements draft
                                              states:</div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
                                              <blockquote style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">Power quality
                                                  parameters include the
                                                  actual=C2=A0voltage, the
                                                  actual frequency, the
                                                  Total Harmonic
                                                  Distortion (THD)
                                                  of=C2=A0voltage and
                                                  current, the impedance
                                                  of an AC phase or of
                                                  the DC=C2=A0Supply.</p>
                                              </blockquote>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">That also seems
                                                perfectly fine and
                                                clear.</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">The framework
                                                draft lists the
                                                following 22 attributes,
                                                but many are redundant
                                                due to separate tables
                                                for single-phase,
                                                delta-phase, and
                                                wye-phase. =C2=A0Of these,
                                                only current isn&#39;t
                                                obviously a power
                                                quality characteristic.=C2=
=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+------------------+-=
-------------------+
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACQuality =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                |--------------------------=
-------------|
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
                                                acConfiguration : enum
                                                {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgVoltage =C2=A0 : long =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgCurrent =C2=A0 : long =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                frequency=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : lo=
ng =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                unitMultiplier=C2=A0 : int =
=C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                accuracy=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalActivePower=C2=A0 :
                                                long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalReactivePower :
                                                long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalApparentPower :
                                                long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalPowerFactor : long
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+--------------------=
-------------------+</p>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+--------------------=
----------------+=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACPhase=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                |--------------------------=
----------|=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                phaseIndex : long=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                activePower : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                reactivePower : long =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                apparentPower : long =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                powerFactor : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                +--------------------------=
----------+=C2=A0</p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>

                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span></p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
-------------+---+
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DelPhase =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|------------------=
-----------------|=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|phaseToNextPhaseVo=
ltage=C2=A0
                                                  : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
-----------------+</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                </p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
+-----------+=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WYEPhase=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|------------------=
------------|=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|phaseToNeutralVolt=
age
                                                  : long=C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long =
=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long =
=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
------------+=C2=A0</p>
                                                <span style=3D"font-family:=
Courier;font-size:12px">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">Reviewing
                                                    this, I can&#39;t
                                                    understand the issue
                                                    here from the
                                                    meeting. Can we
                                                    perhaps get more
                                                    clarity or simply
                                                    close this issue?</p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com=
" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+1=
9173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>

                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;f=
ont-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=
=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" a=
lt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0"=
 height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=
Redefining Storage Economics</span></p>

                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t">=C2=A0</span></p>

                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <span style=3D"font-size:14px;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                                          <div style=3D"border-right:medium=
 none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;fo=
nt-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4=
df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:

                                            </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<b=
r>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Date:
                                            </span> Tue, 31 Jan 2012
                                            18:05:50 -0600<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">To:
                                            </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Cc:
                                            </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Subject:
                                            </span> Re: [eman] Power
                                            Quality versus Power
                                            Characteristics<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          Per Benoit&#39;s email below, I
                                          agree that the current Power
                                          Quality definition is 2.<br>
                                          Since Power Quality has a
                                          specific meaning other than
                                          how we use it, I don&#39;t<br>
                                          think using it works.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The Requirements draft (<a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                                          <br>
                                          uses Power Quality to refer to
                                          a collection of useful
                                          attributes of power.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework draft uses Power
                                          Quality to refer to everything
                                          other than<br>
                                          Power, Energy, and Demand.=C2=A0 =
PQ
                                          groups 22 values beginning
                                          with voltage<br>
                                          and current.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework uses the phrase
                                          &quot;electrical characteristics&=
quot;.=C2=A0
                                          The requirements<br>
                                          refers to &quot;qualitative
                                          properties&quot;.=C2=A0 These gen=
eric
                                          terms are clear enough on
                                          their<br>
                                          own to not require definition,
                                          and are not trying to impart
                                          highly specific information.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          So, I think the answer to our
                                          problem is to not define
                                          &quot;power quality&quot;, and so=
 not<br>
                                          use it to have specific
                                          meaning.=C2=A0 We can use it as a
                                          generic term, along with<br>
                                          &quot;characteristics&quot;,
                                          &quot;properties&quot;, &quot;mea=
surements&quot;,
                                          or similar terms.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Going through the IEEE
                                          Dictionary, there is no
                                          defined term that matches how<br>
                                          we use Power Quality.=C2=A0 This =
is
                                          because we are using it as a
                                          catchall phrase to<br>
                                          cover all metrics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0 =
It
                                          is a &quot;Other&quot; or
                                          &quot;Miscellaneous&quot;<br>
                                          grouping.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          This seems a very workable
                                          solution for all the drafts
                                          except possibly the Monitoring
                                          MIB<br>
                                          draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>

                                          It defines a powerQualityMIB
                                          to hold these various values.=C2=
=A0
                                          Is it a problem if Power
                                          Quality<br>
                                          is not defined?=C2=A0 If we need =
a
                                          term, then it is simplest to
                                          define it as we use it - all<br>
                                          characteristics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0
                                          Some term like &#39;additional&#3=
9;,<br>
                                          &#39;extra&#39;, &#39;optional&#3=
9;,
                                          &#39;detailed&#39;, or such would=
 be
                                          clear.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          --Bruce<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On
                                            Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                                            AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=
=3D"#000000"> Dear
                                                all,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                From the meeting minutes
                                                (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                                                <blockquote>
                                                  <pre>Three categories of =
power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power=
=20
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering=20
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than=20
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power=
=20
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                So the current
                                                definition of &quot;Power
                                                Quality&quot; in <a href=3D=
"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a>
                                                covers correctly &quot;2.&q=
uot;,
                                                right?<br>
                                                So, is Power
                                                Characteristics &quot;1.&qu=
ot;,
                                                &quot;2.&quot;, and &quot;3=
.&quot;?<br>
                                                <br>
                                                At the end, I&#39;m not sur=
e
                                                which problem we try to
                                                solve...<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Regards, Benoit.
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <blockquote type=3D"cit=
e">I am
                                                      mindful that
                                                      whatever we
                                                      decide, it doesn&#39;=
t
                                                      change the<br>
                                                      implementation of
                                                      EMAN, but you make
                                                      some good points.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      My reading of the
                                                      Power Quality
                                                      definition below
                                                      is that it is<br>
                                                      a judgment of
                                                      suitability of
                                                      some power with
                                                      respect to its<br>
                                                      usage context, so
                                                      is a value
                                                      judgment.<br>
                                                      Power
                                                      Characteristics
                                                      was intended to
                                                      not be judgmental,<br=
>
                                                      and independent of
                                                      any usage context.<br=
>
                                                      For something like
                                                      voltage, EMAN is
                                                      just reporting
                                                      what it<br>
                                                      measures.=C2=A0 From
                                                      what we know from
                                                      an EMAN
                                                      perspective,<br>
                                                      there is no
                                                      knowledge of what
                                                      values are
                                                      preferred to
                                                      others.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      I don&#39;t have my
                                                      IEEE Dictionary
                                                      handy to see if
                                                      there is anything<br>
                                                      suitable there.=C2=A0=
 I
                                                      do agree that
                                                      Quality and
                                                      Characteristics do<br=
>
                                                      mean different
                                                      things.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      --Bruce<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On
                                                        Tue, Jan 24,
                                                        2012 at 9:38 AM,
                                                        John Parello
                                                        (jparello) <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jparello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jpare=
llo@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                                        wrote:<br>
                                                        <blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
                                                          Hi,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I&#39;m looking a=
t
                                                          the minutes
                                                          from IETF-82
                                                          and it looks
                                                          as if there
                                                          was a<br>
                                                          request to
                                                          change the
                                                          term &quot;power
                                                          quality&quot; to
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I was about to
                                                          make the
                                                          change but saw
                                                          that I am
                                                          using the term
                                                          &quot;power<br>
                                                          quality&quot; as
                                                          directly
                                                          defined by IEC
                                                          60050 and
                                                          there is no
                                                          such term as<br>
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          The definition
                                                          from IEC60050
                                                          is:<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"http:/=
/www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&a=
mp;ievref=3D617-01-0</a><br>

                                                          5<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          Power Quality<br>
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          of the
                                                          electric
                                                          current,
                                                          voltage and
                                                          frequencies at
                                                          a<br>
                                                          given point in
                                                          an electric
                                                          power system,
                                                          evaluated
                                                          against a set
                                                          of<br>
                                                          reference
                                                          technical
                                                          parameters.
                                                          These
                                                          parameters
                                                          might, in some
                                                          cases,<br>
                                                          relate to the
                                                          compatibility
                                                          between
                                                          electricity
                                                          supplied in an
                                                          electric<br>
                                                          power system
                                                          and the loads
                                                          connected to
                                                          that electric
                                                          power system.<br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I&#39;m reluctant
                                                          to change that
                                                          to power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          as the method
                                                          of<br>
                                                          definition is
                                                          that we take
                                                          from a source
                                                          directly at
                                                          first. I see
                                                          no<br>
                                                          source for
                                                          power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          only power
                                                          quality.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Since I can&#39;t
                                                          find a source
                                                          for power
                                                          characteristics,
                                                          a quick search
                                                          on<br>
                                                          how &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          is used shows
                                                          that it refers
                                                          more times on<br>
                                                          how a device
                                                          uses power.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So to contrast
                                                          =C2=A0&quot;power
                                                          quality&quot;
                                                          describes the
                                                          electrical
                                                          characteristics<b=
r>
                                                          (voltage and
                                                          frequency).
                                                          &quot;Power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          however =C2=A0mor=
e
                                                          commonly<br>
                                                          refers to
                                                          (example) a
                                                          device using
                                                          say 100W at
                                                          boot up and
                                                          the 50W at a<br>
                                                          steady state
                                                          over time.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So while the
                                                          minutes state
                                                          this...<br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          refer to these
                                                          as Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          instead of<br>
                                                          Power<br>
                                                          Quality to
                                                          avoid
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BC] - Asks
                                                          room if Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          is OK. =C2=A0Note=
s
                                                          no objections.<br=
>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Other terms
                                                          that discussed
                                                          on the list:<br>
                                                          - Power State
                                                          Set<br>
                                                          - Energy
                                                          Object
                                                          Relationship<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          just continue
                                                          the discussion
                                                          on the list.<br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Very easy
                                                          research shows
                                                          that =C2=A0&quot;=
power
                                                          quality&quot; and
                                                          &quot;power<br>
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          are two
                                                          distinct terms
                                                          and not
                                                          =C2=A0interchange=
able.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So I&#39;m asking
                                                          &quot;Are you
                                                          sure?&quot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I proposed to
                                                          keep &quot;power
                                                          quality&quot; as
                                                          defined by
                                                          IEC60050 and
                                                          if needed<br>
                                                          I can add
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          as described
                                                          above if
                                                          someone has a<br>
                                                          reference. I
                                                          strongly
                                                          propose not to
                                                          use them
                                                          interchangeably.<=
br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Feedback?<br>
                                                          Jp<br>
                                                          <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          eman mailing
                                                          list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto=
:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br clear=3D"all">
                                                      <br>
                                                      -- <br>
                                                      <font size=3D"4"><b>B=
ruce
                                                          Nordman</b></font=
><br>
                                                      <span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence

                                                        Berkeley
                                                        National
                                                        Laboratory</span><b=
r>
                                                      <a href=3D"http://eet=
d.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                                      <a href=3D"mailto:BNo=
rdman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                                      <a href=3D"tel:510-48=
6-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                                      m: <a href=3D"tel:510=
-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <fieldset></fieldset>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <pre>________________=
_______________________________
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <br clear=3D"all">
                                          <br>
                                          -- <br>
                                          <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce
                                              Nordman</b></font><br>
                                          <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)=
">Lawrence
                                            Berkeley National Laboratory</s=
pan><br>
                                          <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea=
/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.go=
v" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                          <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" valu=
e=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                          m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" v=
alue=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                          <br>
                                        </span> </blockquote>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </span> </blockquote>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear=3D"all"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888">
                    <br>
                    -- <br>
                    <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                    <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                      National Laboratory</span><br>
                    <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_b=
lank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                    <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">B=
Nordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                    <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" tar=
get=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                    m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" =
target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                    <br>
                  </font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888">
                </font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#=
888888">
              </font></span></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888">
          </font></span></blockquote><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">
        </font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
        <br>
        <br clear=3D"all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <font style size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
        <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National
          Laboratory</span><br>
        <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" style target=3D"_blank">=
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
        <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" style target=3D"_blank">BNordma=
n@LBL.gov</a><br>
        <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blan=
k">510-486-7089</a><br>
        m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_b=
lank">510-501-7943</a><br>
        <br>
      </font></span></span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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From: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
To: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:30:59 -0600
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From bnordman@lbl.gov  Wed Feb 29 14:39:34 2012
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References: <CAK+eDP_RXrx5hNoiSYjr+oJU+93fzhHLTvNOjUDCuNxs3PzCQA@mail.gmail.com> <CB73E67A.21C42%brads@coraid.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:39:28 -0800
Message-ID: <CAK+eDP85RJw+OiZzr8Z6PUGTcrtFSmgWFNE4Wr=31fysf2XjgQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
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Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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What are the reference values for each then?
Listing them specifically would help us understand
how EMAN evaluates them.
--Bruce

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> I believe we are talking past each other.  The majority of these 24 MIB
> variables *do* have a reference value as noted in my earlier email.  Coul=
d
> you be specific about which ones you feel don't have a reference paramete=
r.
>
>
> Brad Schoening
> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>
>
> [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> Re=
defining
> Storage Economics****
>
> ** **
>
> From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:25:28 -0600
>
> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> Cc: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>
> I agree this should be closed ASAP.
>
> To try to summarize, we have a definition of Power Quality in:
>    http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-parello-eman-definitions/
> that reads (emphasis added by me):
> Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a
> given point in
> an electric power system, *evaluated against a set of reference technical
> parameters*.
> These parameters might, in some cases,relate to the compatibility between
> electricity
> supplied in an electric power system and the loads connected to that
> electric power system.
> Further, there are 24 MIB variables with Quality as part of their name in=
:
>
>
>             eoACPwrQualityConfiguration       INTEGER,
>             eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage          Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent          Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityFrequency           Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier UnitMultiplier,
>             eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy       Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower    Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower  Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower  Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor    Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres         Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage          Integer32
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent      Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower     Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower   Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower   Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor     Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance       Integer32
>             eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage      Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage   Integer32,
>             eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent                   Integer32
>                 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage       Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent                Integer32,
>                 eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage    Integer32
>
> As the definition of power quality makes clear, these are
> "characteristics".
> By my reading, they become "power quality" when "*evaluated against a set
> of reference technical parameters*. "
> It seems to me that EMAN does not contain "reference technical parameters=
"
> and does no evaluation.
> Outside of the scope of EMAN, some management systems may have such
> reference parameters and may do such evaluations.
>
> Finally, I see no advantages to including the definition and the use of
> the term
> quality.  I see definite disadvantages.  No implementation will ever be
> different
> based on the outcome of this decision.
>
> A simple solution is to simply drop the word Quality out of these MIB
> names,
> at which point the definition becomes unnecessary to include.
>
> --Bruce
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>  Bruce, Brad,
>>
>> Can we please close this issue.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor for  the EMAN-FMWK)
>>
>>  Hi Bruce,
>>
>>  My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit reference
>> point or ratio with three additional attributes are informational for th=
e
>> table: Configuration, UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.
>>
>>  Which attributes are you having an issue with?
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Brad
>>
>>   Brad Schoening
>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>
>>
>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/> =
Redefining
>> Storage Economics****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:28:25 -0600
>> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
>> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>>   Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>>  Your statement here is incorrect.  If you carefully review the
>>> details, you will see that the majority of these attributes incorporate=
 a
>>> reference point.  For example, total harmonic distortion is a ratio of =
the
>>> distortion relative to the reference frequency.  Or consider, power fac=
tor
>>> which is a ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where real po=
wer
>>> is the reference point.
>>>
>>
>> Below I have extracted the 24 entries in draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05
>> that are labeled "PwrQuality".  The interested reader can count how many
>> of
>> these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting context.
>>
>> --Bruce
>>
>>         powerACPwrQualityMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>>                              eoACPwrQualityConfiguration,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityFrequency,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage
>>         powerACPwrQualityPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,
>>                              eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance
>>         powerACPwrQualityDelPhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>>                             eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage ,
>>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage,
>>                             eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent
>>         powerACPwrQualityWyePhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
>>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage,
>>                             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent,
>>                             eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage
>>
>>>
>>>  Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power (wasted energy) are
>>> 'power quality' characteristics.
>>>
>>>  Regards,
>>>
>>>  Brad
>>>
>>>   Brad Schoening
>>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>
>>>
>>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/>=
 Redefining
>>> Storage Economics
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>>> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600
>>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>
>>>  It seems to me that the definition of power quality
>>> implies a reference point for evaluating quality
>>> that is absent in the EMAN context - making it
>>> unsuitable to reference.
>>> There is actually no need to reference the term
>>> "power quality" at all in the drafts, and therefore
>>> no need to have a definition for it.
>>> While it would be best to not use the term at all in
>>> the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of power
>>> characteristics would likely not mislead people, but
>>> this would not require a definition.
>>> The monitoring MIB draft does use "PwrQuality"
>>> in many of the entries.  These can simply be changed
>>> to "Power".
>>> Problem solved.
>>> --Bruce
>>>
>>>  On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>wrot=
e:
>>>
>>>>  Hi Brad,
>>>>
>>>>   Benoit,
>>>>
>>>>  I hope that the terminology draft has clarified the meaning of 'power
>>>> quality' and put this issue to rest.
>>>>
>>>>  I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue close.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Brad Schoening
>>>> e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/=
> Redefining
>>>> Storage Economics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>>> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21 -0600
>>>> To: Brad Schoening <brads@coraid.com>
>>>> Cc: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>, "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>>
>>>>   Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I would like appreciate if someone could rephrase the problem
>>>> description (if any), as there is some confusion.
>>>> According to this email thread, the power quality definition is fine
>>>> and the EMAN requirements draft is in line with this definition.
>>>>
>>>> Is the problem that the eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN monitoring MIB module
>>>> contains at the same time:
>>>> - "power quality" variables
>>>> - non "power quality" variables, i.e not "evaluated against a set of
>>>> reference technical parameters"? Example: current
>>>> Hence the table name should NOT contain "Power Quality" and the
>>>> [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to be updated.
>>>>
>>>> Please let us know.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Bruce,
>>>>
>>>>  I don't understand the context for choosing those three categories.,
>>>> 1, 2 & 3 or how they were derived?  These categories seem pretty much =
ad
>>>> hoc .
>>>>
>>>>  In contrast, our EMAN Terminology states, directly quoting IEC 60050:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Power Quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and
>>>>
>>>>        frequencies at a given point in an electric power
>>>>
>>>>        system, evaluated against a set of reference technical
>>>>
>>>>        parameters. These parameters might, in some cases,
>>>>
>>>>        relate to the compatibility between electricity
>>>>
>>>>        supplied in an electric power system and the loads
>>>>
>>>>        connected to that electric power system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        Reference: [IEC60050<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-e=
man-definitions-04#ref-IEC60050>
>>>> ]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  This seems both adequate and clear.
>>>>  The EMAN requirements draft states:
>>>>
>>>>   Power quality parameters include the actual voltage, the actual
>>>> frequency, the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of voltage and current,=
 the
>>>> impedance of an AC phase or of the DC Supply.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  That also seems perfectly fine and clear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  The framework draft lists the following 22 attributes, but many are
>>>> redundant due to separate tables for single-phase, delta-phase, and
>>>> wye-phase.  Of these, only current isn't obviously a power quality
>>>> characteristic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>           +------------------+--------------------+
>>>>
>>>>          |         ACQuality                     |
>>>>
>>>>          |---------------------------------------|
>>>>
>>>>          | acConfiguration : enum {SNGL, DEL,WYE}|
>>>>
>>>>          | avgVoltage   : long                   |
>>>>
>>>>          | avgCurrent   : long                   |
>>>>
>>>>          | frequency    : long                   |
>>>>
>>>>          | unitMultiplier  : int                 |
>>>>
>>>>          | accuracy  : int                       |
>>>>
>>>>          | totalActivePower  : long              |
>>>>
>>>>          | totalReactivePower : long             |
>>>>
>>>>          | totalApparentPower : long             |
>>>>
>>>>          | totalPowerFactor : long
>>>>
>>>>          +---------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>           +------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>          |         ACPhase                    |
>>>>
>>>>          |------------------------------------|
>>>>
>>>>          | phaseIndex : long                  |
>>>>
>>>>          | avgCurrent : long                  |
>>>>
>>>>          | activePower : long                 |
>>>>
>>>>          | reactivePower : long               |
>>>>
>>>>          | apparentPower : long               |
>>>>
>>>>          | powerFactor : long                 |
>>>>
>>>>          +------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>           +-------------------------------+---+
>>>>
>>>>          |        DelPhase                   |
>>>>
>>>>          |-----------------------------------|
>>>>
>>>>          |phaseToNextPhaseVoltage  : long    |
>>>>
>>>>          |thdVoltage : long                  |
>>>>
>>>>          |thdCurrent : long                  |
>>>>
>>>>          +-----------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>           +------------------+-----------+
>>>>
>>>>          |        WYEPhase              |
>>>>
>>>>          |------------------------------|
>>>>
>>>>          |phaseToNeutralVoltage : long  |
>>>>
>>>>          |thdCurrent : long             |
>>>>
>>>>          |thdVoltage : long             |
>>>>
>>>>          +------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Reviewing this, I can't understand the issue here from the meeting.
>>>> Can we perhaps get more clarity or simply close this issue?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  e: brads@coraid.com =E2=9F=90 m: 917-304-7190
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  [image: Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall] <http://www.coraid.com/=
> Redefining
>>>> Storage Economics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  From: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
>>>> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:05:50 -0600
>>>> To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: "eman@ietf.org" <eman@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
>>>>
>>>>  Per Benoit's email below, I agree that the current Power Quality
>>>> definition is 2.
>>>> Since Power Quality has a specific meaning other than how we use it, I
>>>> don't
>>>> think using it works.
>>>>
>>>> The Requirements draft (
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt)
>>>> uses Power Quality to refer to a collection of useful attributes of
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> The framework draft uses Power Quality to refer to everything other th=
an
>>>> Power, Energy, and Demand.  PQ groups 22 values beginning with voltage
>>>> and current.
>>>>
>>>> The framework uses the phrase "electrical characteristics".  The
>>>> requirements
>>>> refers to "qualitative properties".  These generic terms are clear
>>>> enough on their
>>>> own to not require definition, and are not trying to impart highly
>>>> specific information.
>>>>
>>>> So, I think the answer to our problem is to not define "power quality"=
,
>>>> and so not
>>>> use it to have specific meaning.  We can use it as a generic term,
>>>> along with
>>>> "characteristics", "properties", "measurements", or similar terms.
>>>>
>>>> Going through the IEEE Dictionary, there is no defined term that
>>>> matches how
>>>> we use Power Quality.  This is because we are using it as a catchall
>>>> phrase to
>>>> cover all metrics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  It is a
>>>> "Other" or "Miscellaneous"
>>>> grouping.
>>>>
>>>> This seems a very workable solution for all the drafts except possibly
>>>> the Monitoring MIB
>>>> draft (
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt).
>>>> It defines a powerQualityMIB to hold these various values.  Is it a
>>>> problem if Power Quality
>>>> is not defined?  If we need a term, then it is simplest to define it a=
s
>>>> we use it - all
>>>> characteristics other than Energy, Power, and Demand.  Some term like
>>>> 'additional',
>>>> 'extra', 'optional', 'detailed', or such would be clear.
>>>>
>>>> --Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>wrot=
e:
>>>>
>>>>>  Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> From the meeting minutes (
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt):
>>>>>
>>>>> Three categories of power quality:
>>>>> 1. Nominal power supply
>>>>> 2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
>>>>> 3. Power usage
>>>>>
>>>>> [MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  P=
ower
>>>>> quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are consider=
ing
>>>>> would be considered more generally additional power characteristics t=
han
>>>>> power quality.
>>>>>
>>>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of=
 Power
>>>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>>  So the current definition of "Power Quality" in
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04 covers
>>>>> correctly "2.", right?
>>>>> So, is Power Characteristics "1.", "2.", and "3."?
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end, I'm not sure which problem we try to solve...
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am mindful that whatever we decide, it doesn't change the
>>>>> implementation of EMAN, but you make some good points.
>>>>>
>>>>> My reading of the Power Quality definition below is that it is
>>>>> a judgment of suitability of some power with respect to its
>>>>> usage context, so is a value judgment.
>>>>> Power Characteristics was intended to not be judgmental,
>>>>> and independent of any usage context.
>>>>> For something like voltage, EMAN is just reporting what it
>>>>> measures.  From what we know from an EMAN perspective,
>>>>> there is no knowledge of what values are preferred to others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have my IEEE Dictionary handy to see if there is anything
>>>>> suitable there.  I do agree that Quality and Characteristics do
>>>>> mean different things.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 9:38 AM, John Parello (jparello) <
>>>>> jparello@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm looking at the minutes from IETF-82 and it looks as if there was=
 a
>>>>>> request to change the term "power quality" to "power characteristics=
"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was about to make the change but saw that I am using the term "pow=
er
>>>>>> quality" as directly defined by IEC 60050 and there is no such term =
as
>>>>>> "power characteristics"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The definition from IEC60050 is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=3D61=
7-01-0
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>> """
>>>>>> Power Quality
>>>>>> Characteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at =
a
>>>>>> given point in an electric power system, evaluated against a set of
>>>>>> reference technical parameters. These parameters might, in some case=
s,
>>>>>> relate to the compatibility between electricity supplied in an
>>>>>> electric
>>>>>> power system and the loads connected to that electric power system.
>>>>>> """
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm reluctant to change that to power characteristics as the method =
of
>>>>>> definition is that we take from a source directly at first. I see no
>>>>>> source for power characteristics only power quality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I can't find a source for power characteristics, a quick searc=
h
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> how "power characteristics" is used shows that it refers more times =
on
>>>>>> how a device uses power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So to contrast  "power quality" describes the electrical
>>>>>> characteristics
>>>>>> (voltage and frequency). "Power characteristics" however  more
>>>>>> commonly
>>>>>> refers to (example) a device using say 100W at boot up and the 50W a=
t
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> steady state over time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So while the minutes state this...
>>>>>> """
>>>>>> [BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead o=
f
>>>>>> Power
>>>>>> Quality to avoid confusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [BC] - Asks room if Power Characteristics is OK.  Notes no objection=
s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other terms that discussed on the list:
>>>>>> - Power State Set
>>>>>> - Energy Object Relationship
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [BN] - Proposed to just continue the discussion on the list.
>>>>>> """
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very easy research shows that  "power quality" and "power
>>>>>> characteristics" are two distinct terms and not  interchangeable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'm asking "Are you sure?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I proposed to keep "power quality" as defined by IEC60050 and if
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> I can add "power characteristics" as described above if someone has =
a
>>>>>> reference. I strongly propose not to use them interchangeably.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feedback?
>>>>>> Jp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> eman mailing list
>>>>>> eman@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>>>> 510-486-7089
>>>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> eman mailing listeman@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e=
man
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>>> 510-486-7089
>>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Bruce Nordman*
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>>> 510-486-7089
>>> m: 510-501-7943
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Bruce Nordman*
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
>> BNordman@LBL.gov
>> 510-486-7089
>> m: 510-501-7943
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Bruce Nordman*
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
> BNordman@LBL.gov
> 510-486-7089
> m: 510-501-7943
>
>


--=20
*Bruce Nordman*
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman
BNordman@LBL.gov
510-486-7089
m: 510-501-7943

--047d7b2e090d396b3904ba22048b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What are the reference values for each then?<br>Listing them specifically w=
ould help us understand<br>how EMAN evaluates them.<br>--Bruce<br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brad Schoening <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com">brads@coraid.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Bruce,</div><div><br><=
/div>
<div>I believe we are talking past each other. =C2=A0The majority of these =
24 MIB variables *do* have a reference value as noted in my earlier email. =
=C2=A0Could you be specific about which ones you feel don&#39;t have a refe=
rence parameter. =C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-size:14px"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a>=
</span></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:07F3EB59-8926-4388-8E06-D819D639C2A1" alt=3D"De=
scription: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=
=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefin=
ing Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left=
:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></=
div></div>
</div><div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-r=
ight:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;bo=
rder-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;pa=
dding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:25:28 -0600=
<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit C=
laise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Brad Schoen=
ing &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.=
com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@=
ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">e=
man@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman] Power Quality =
versus Power Characteristics<br></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><d=
iv><br></div>I agree this should be closed ASAP.<br><br>To try to summarize=
, we have a definition of Power Quality in:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-parello-eman-=
definitions/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-parel=
lo-eman-definitions/</a><br>
that reads (emphasis added by me):<br><div style=3D"margin-left:40px">Chara=
cteristics of the electric current, voltage and frequencies at a given poin=
t in <br>an electric power system, <b>evaluated against a set of reference =
technical parameters</b>. <br>

These parameters might, in some cases,relate to the compatibility between e=
lectricity <br>supplied in an electric power system and the loads connected=
 to that electric power system.<br></div>Further, there are 24 MIB variable=
s with Quality as part of their name in:<br>

=C2=A0 <br><pre>            eoACPwrQualityConfiguration       INTEGER, =20
            eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage          Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent          Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityFrequency           Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier UnitMultiplier,=20
            eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy       Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower    Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower  Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower  Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor    Integer32,    =20
            eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres         Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage          Integer32 <br>               =
 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent      Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower     Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower   Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower   Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor     Integer32,    =20
                eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance       Integer32  <br>         =
   eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage      Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage   Integer32,=20
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent                   Integer32 <br>   =
             eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage       Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent                Integer32,=20
                eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage    Integer32 <br>=
</pre>As the definition of power quality makes clear, these are &quot;chara=
cteristics&quot;.<br>By my reading, they become &quot;power quality&quot; w=
hen &quot;<b>evaluated against a set of reference technical parameters</b>.=
 &quot;<br>

It seems to me that EMAN does not contain &quot;reference technical paramet=
ers&quot;<br>and does no evaluation.<br>Outside of the scope of EMAN, some =
management systems may have such<br>reference parameters and may do such ev=
aluations.<br>
<br>Finally, I see no advantages to including the definition and the use of=
 the term<br>quality.=C2=A0 I see definite disadvantages.=C2=A0 No implemen=
tation will ever be different<br>based on the outcome of this decision.<br>=
<br>A simple solution is to simply drop the word Quality out of these MIB n=
ames,<br>

at which point the definition becomes unnecessary to include.<br><br>--Bruc=
e<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Be=
noit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Bruce, Brad,<br>
    <br>
    Can we please close this issue.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit. (as a contributor for=C2=A0 the EMAN-FMWK)<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <div>
          <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>My count is 18 measurement attributes having an explicit
            reference point or ratio with three additional attributes
            are informational for the table: Configuration,
            UnitMultiplier, and Accuracy.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Which attributes are you having an issue with?</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Regards,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Brad</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">Brad Sch=
oening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>


                </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@c=
oraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                    </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7=
190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span=
></span></p>


              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>
                </span></p>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"=
><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"cid:part1.04020604.04010703@cisco.com=
" alt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D=
"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=
=A0Redefining Storage Economics<u></u><u></u></span></p>


              <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0=
in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span>
        <div style=3D"border-bottom-width:medium;padding-left:0in;padding-r=
ight:0in;padding-top:3pt;border-top-style:solid;text-align:left;border-righ=
t-style:none;padding-bottom:0in;border-bottom-color:initial;border-top-widt=
h:1pt;border-bottom-style:none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-lef=
t-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-left-style:none;font-size=
:11pt;border-right-width:medium;font-family:Calibri;border-left-width:mediu=
m">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 22 Feb 2012
          12:28:25 -0600<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Brad Schoening
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@c=
oraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;,
          &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@iet=
f.org</a>&quot;
          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [eman]
          Power Quality versus Power Characteristics<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Brad
          Schoening <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left:1ex;margi=
n-right:0px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;border-left-width:1px">
            <div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>Hi Bruce,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Your statement here is incorrect. =C2=A0If you
                    carefully review the details, you will see that the
                    majority of these attributes incorporate a reference
                    point. =C2=A0For example, total harmonic distortion is =
a
                    ratio of the distortion relative to the reference
                    frequency. =C2=A0Or consider, power factor which is a
                    ratio of the real power to the apparent power, where
                    real power is the reference point.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
            Below I have extracted the 24 entries in
            draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05 <br>
            that are labeled &quot;PwrQuality&quot;.=C2=A0 The interested r=
eader can
            count how many of<br>
            these incorporate a reference point in the EMAN reporting
            context.<br>
            <br>
            --Bruce<br>
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityMIB=
TableGroup OBJECT-GROUP<br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityConfiguration, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityAvgCurrent, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityFrequency, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPowerUnitMultiplier, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPowerAccuracy, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalActivePower,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityTotalReactivePower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityTotalApparentPower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityTotalPowerFactor,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdAmpheres, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityThdVoltage <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityPha=
seMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseAvgCurrent,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityPhaseActivePower,
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseReactivePower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseApparentPower, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhasePowerFactor,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityPhaseImpedance=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityDel=
PhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityDelPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage , <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityDelThdPhaseToNextPhaseVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityDelThdCurrent <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 powerACPwrQualityWye=
PhaseMIBTableGroup OBJECT-GROUP
            <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseToNeutralVoltage, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 eoACPwrQualityWyePhaseCurrent, <br>
            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            eoACPwrQualityWyeThdPhaseToNeutralVoltage <br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left:1ex;margi=
n-right:0pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;margin-bottom:0pt;margin-top:0pt;border-left-width:1px">
            <div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Clearly, measuring distortion and reactive power
                    (wasted energy) are &#39;power quality&#39; characteris=
tics.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Regards,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Brad</div>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
">Brad
                            Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:14px"><br>
                          </span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailt=
o:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> </span><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173047190" target=
=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>


                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
"><br>


                          </span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size:9pt;text-decora=
tion:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"color:blue;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"Description:
                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png"=
 border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining Storage
                            Economics</span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <span>
                <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;pa=
dding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom=
:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-botto=
m:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Bruce
                  Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D=
"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 20
                  Feb 2012 00:43:34 -0600<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Benoit
                  Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Brad
                  Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;,
                  &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
eman@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                      <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>
                      Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power
                      Characteristics<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    It seems to me that the definition of power quality<br>=
                    implies a reference point for evaluating quality<br>
                    that is absent in the EMAN context - making it<br>
                    unsuitable to reference.<br>
                    There is actually no need to reference the term<br>
                    &quot;power quality&quot; at all in the drafts, and the=
refore<br>                    no need to have a definition for it.<br>
                    While it would be best to not use the term at all in<br=
>
                    the drafts, using it as a general descriptor of
                    power <br>
                    characteristics would likely not mislead people, but<br=
>
                    this would not require a definition.<br>
                    The monitoring MIB draft does use &quot;PwrQuality&quot=
;<br>
                    in many of the entries.=C2=A0 These can simply be chang=
ed<br>
                    to &quot;Power&quot;.<br>
                    Problem solved.<br>
                    --Bruce<br>
                    <br>
                    <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                      On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Benoit Claise <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bcla=
ise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Hi Brad,
                          <div><br>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>Benoit,</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>I hope that the terminology draft
                                    has clarified the meaning of &#39;power
                                    quality&#39; and put this issue to
                                    rest.=C2=A0 <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          I hope so. Therefore, I consider this issue
                          close.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regards, Benoit.
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px">Brad Schoening</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:14px"><br>


                                          </span><span style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:15px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0=
<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a> =
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+19173=
047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span></span></span></p>


                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px"><br>


                                          </span></p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-size=
:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=3D"colo=
r:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" alt=3D"De=
scription:
                                                Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" ty=
pe=3D"image/png" border=3D"0" height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0Redefining
                                            Storage Economics</span></p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=
=A0</span></p>


                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <span>
                                  <div style=3D"border-right:medium none;pa=
dding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:=
11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt s=
olid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:
                                    </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date:
                                    </span> Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:31:21
                                    -0600<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </=
span>
                                    Brad Schoening &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br=
ads@coraid.com" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </=
span>
                                    Bruce Nordman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bno=
rdman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;,

                                    &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                    <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subjec=
t:                                    </span> Re: [eman] Power Quality
                                    versus Power Characteristics<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#00000=
0"> Dear all,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      I would like appreciate if someone
                                      could rephrase the problem
                                      description (if any), as there is
                                      some confusion.<br>
                                      According to this email thread,
                                      the power quality definition is
                                      fine and the EMAN requirements
                                      draft is in line with this
                                      definition.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Is the problem that the
                                      eoACPwrQualityTable EMAN
                                      monitoring MIB module contains at
                                      the same time:<br>
                                      - &quot;power quality&quot; variables=
<br>
                                      - non &quot;power quality&quot; varia=
bles,
                                      i.e not &quot;evaluated against a set
                                      of reference technical
                                      parameters&quot;? Example: current<br=
>
                                      Hence the table name should NOT
                                      contain &quot;Power Quality&quot; and=
 the
                                      [EMAN-FMWK] wordings might have to
                                      be updated.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Please let us know.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Regards, Benoit.<br>
                                      <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"=
></span>
                                      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Hi
                                              Bruce,</div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
                                              don&#39;t understand the
                                              context for choosing those
                                              three categories., 1, 2
                                              &amp; 3 or how they were
                                              derived? =C2=A0These categori=
es
                                              seem pretty much ad hoc .</di=
v>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal nor=
mal 12px/normal Courier">In

                                                    contrast, our EMAN
                                                    Terminology states,
                                                    directly quoting IEC
                                                    60050:</p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Courier;font-size:12px"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
parello-eman-definitions-04" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a></span><span style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica">
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0Power
                                                    Quality</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Char=
acteristics
                                                    of the electric
                                                    current, voltage and</p=
>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0freq=
uencies at a
                                                    given point in an
                                                    electric power</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0syst=
em,
                                                    evaluated against a
                                                    set of reference
                                                    technical</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0para=
meters.
                                                    These parameters
                                                    might, in some
                                                    cases,</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0rela=
te to the
                                                    compatibility
                                                    between electricity</p>=
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">
=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0supp=
lied in an
                                                    electric power
                                                    system and the loads</p=
>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0conn=
ected to
                                                    that electric power
                                                    system.</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier;min-height:14px">=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reference=
: [<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04#=
ref-IEC60050" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline;co=
lor:rgb(22,54,238)">IEC60050</span></a>]</p>


                                                  <p style=3D"font-size:14p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:no=
rmal normal normal 12px/normal Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal nor=
mal 12px/normal Courier"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><font size=3D"=
3">This seems both adequate and
                                                        clear.=C2=A0</font>=
</span></p>
                                                  <span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Calibri"></span></span></span></div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">The

                                              EMAN requirements draft
                                              states:</div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
                                              <blockquote style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">Power quality
                                                  parameters include the
                                                  actual=C2=A0voltage, the
                                                  actual frequency, the
                                                  Total Harmonic
                                                  Distortion (THD)
                                                  of=C2=A0voltage and
                                                  current, the impedance
                                                  of an AC phase or of
                                                  the DC=C2=A0Supply.</p>
                                              </blockquote>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">That also seems
                                                perfectly fine and
                                                clear.</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">The framework
                                                draft lists the
                                                following 22 attributes,
                                                but many are redundant
                                                due to separate tables
                                                for single-phase,
                                                delta-phase, and
                                                wye-phase. =C2=A0Of these,
                                                only current isn&#39;t
                                                obviously a power
                                                quality characteristic.=C2=
=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                              </p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+------------------+-=
-------------------+
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACQuality =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                |--------------------------=
-------------|
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
                                                acConfiguration : enum
                                                {SNGL, DEL,WYE}| =C2=A0</p>=
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgVoltage =C2=A0 : long =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgCurrent =C2=A0 : long =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                frequency=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : lo=
ng =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                unitMultiplier=C2=A0 : int =
=C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                accuracy=C2=A0 : int =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalActivePower=C2=A0 :
                                                long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalReactivePower :
                                                long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalApparentPower :
                                                long =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                totalPowerFactor : long
                                                =C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+--------------------=
-------------------+</p>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0+--------------------=
----------------+=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ACPhase=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                |--------------------------=
----------|=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                phaseIndex : long=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                avgCurrent : long=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                activePower : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                reactivePower : long =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                apparentPower : long =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
                                                powerFactor : long =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                              <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                +--------------------------=
----------+=C2=A0</p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>


                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px"></span></p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
-------------+---+
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DelPhase =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|------------------=
-----------------|=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|phaseToNextPhaseVo=
ltage=C2=A0
                                                  : long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
-----------------+</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                </p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
+-----------+=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WYEPhase=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>=
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|------------------=
------------|=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|phaseToNeutralVolt=
age
                                                  : long=C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdCurrent : long =
=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0|thdVoltage : long =
=C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0</p>
                                                <p style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                  =C2=A0+------------------=
------------+=C2=A0</p>
                                                <span style=3D"font-family:=
Courier;font-size:12px">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier">Reviewing
                                                    this, I can&#39;t
                                                    understand the issue
                                                    here from the
                                                    meeting. Can we
                                                    perhaps get more
                                                    clarity or simply
                                                    close this issue?</p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0px;font:12.0px Courier"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">e:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:brads@coraid.com=
" target=3D"_blank">brads@coraid.com</a>
                                                </span><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=E2=9F=90</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0m:</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:917-304-7190" value=3D"+1=
9173047190" target=3D"_blank">917-304-7190</a></span>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px"><br>


                                                  </span></p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:blue;f=
ont-size:9pt;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"http://www.coraid.com/" style=
=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"" a=
lt=3D"Description: Coraid+Logo_reallysmall" type=3D"image/png" border=3D"0"=
 height=3D"46" width=3D"95"></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=
Redefining Storage Economics</span></p>


                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t">=C2=A0</span></p>


                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <span style=3D"font-size:14px;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                                          <div style=3D"border-right:medium=
 none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;fo=
nt-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4=
df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:

                                            </span> Bruce Nordman &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bnordman@lbl.gov" target=3D"_blank">bnordman@lbl.gov</a>&gt;<b=
r>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Date:
                                            </span> Tue, 31 Jan 2012
                                            18:05:50 -0600<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">To:
                                            </span> Benoit Claise &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Cc:
                                            </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                            <span style=3D"font-weight:bold=
">Subject:
                                            </span> Re: [eman] Power
                                            Quality versus Power
                                            Characteristics<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          Per Benoit&#39;s email below, I
                                          agree that the current Power
                                          Quality definition is 2.<br>
                                          Since Power Quality has a
                                          specific meaning other than
                                          how we use it, I don&#39;t<br>
                                          think using it works.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The Requirements draft (<a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-requirements-05.txt</a>)
                                          <br>
                                          uses Power Quality to refer to
                                          a collection of useful
                                          attributes of power.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework draft uses Power
                                          Quality to refer to everything
                                          other than<br>
                                          Power, Energy, and Demand.=C2=A0 =
PQ
                                          groups 22 values beginning
                                          with voltage<br>
                                          and current.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          The framework uses the phrase
                                          &quot;electrical characteristics&=
quot;.=C2=A0
                                          The requirements<br>
                                          refers to &quot;qualitative
                                          properties&quot;.=C2=A0 These gen=
eric
                                          terms are clear enough on
                                          their<br>
                                          own to not require definition,
                                          and are not trying to impart
                                          highly specific information.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          So, I think the answer to our
                                          problem is to not define
                                          &quot;power quality&quot;, and so=
 not<br>
                                          use it to have specific
                                          meaning.=C2=A0 We can use it as a=
                                          generic term, along with<br>
                                          &quot;characteristics&quot;,
                                          &quot;properties&quot;, &quot;mea=
surements&quot;,
                                          or similar terms.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Going through the IEEE
                                          Dictionary, there is no
                                          defined term that matches how<br>=
                                          we use Power Quality.=C2=A0 This =
is
                                          because we are using it as a
                                          catchall phrase to<br>
                                          cover all metrics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0 =
It
                                          is a &quot;Other&quot; or
                                          &quot;Miscellaneous&quot;<br>
                                          grouping.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          This seems a very workable
                                          solution for all the drafts
                                          except possibly the Monitoring
                                          MIB<br>
                                          draft (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-eman-energy-monitoring-mib-01.txt</a>).<br>


                                          It defines a powerQualityMIB
                                          to hold these various values.=C2=
=A0
                                          Is it a problem if Power
                                          Quality<br>
                                          is not defined?=C2=A0 If we need =
a
                                          term, then it is simplest to
                                          define it as we use it - all<br>
                                          characteristics other than
                                          Energy, Power, and Demand.=C2=A0
                                          Some term like &#39;additional&#3=
9;,<br>
                                          &#39;extra&#39;, &#39;optional&#3=
9;,
                                          &#39;detailed&#39;, or such would=
 be
                                          clear.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          --Bruce<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On
                                            Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:51
                                            AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=
=3D"#000000"> Dear
                                                all,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                From the meeting minutes
                                                (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org=
/proceedings/82/minutes/eman.txt</a>):<br>
                                                <blockquote>
                                                  <pre>Three categories of =
power quality:
1. Nominal power supply
2. Power quality, deviation from nominal
3. Power usage

[MC] - Power Quality has a very specific meaning in some contexts.  Power=
=20
quality mostly encompasses #2.  Many of the variables we are considering=20
would be considered more generally additional power characteristics than=20
power quality.

[BN] - Proposed to refer to these as Power Characteristics instead of Power=
=20
Quality to avoid confusion.</pre>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                So the current
                                                definition of &quot;Power
                                                Quality&quot; in <a href=3D=
"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-parello-eman-definitions-04</a>
                                                covers correctly &quot;2.&q=
uot;,
                                                right?<br>
                                                So, is Power
                                                Characteristics &quot;1.&qu=
ot;,
                                                &quot;2.&quot;, and &quot;3=
.&quot;?<br>
                                                <br>
                                                At the end, I&#39;m not sur=
e
                                                which problem we try to
                                                solve...<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Regards, Benoit.
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <blockquote type=3D"cit=
e">I am
                                                      mindful that
                                                      whatever we
                                                      decide, it doesn&#39;=
t
                                                      change the<br>
                                                      implementation of
                                                      EMAN, but you make
                                                      some good points.<br>=
                                                      <br>
                                                      My reading of the
                                                      Power Quality
                                                      definition below
                                                      is that it is<br>
                                                      a judgment of
                                                      suitability of
                                                      some power with
                                                      respect to its<br>
                                                      usage context, so
                                                      is a value
                                                      judgment.<br>
                                                      Power
                                                      Characteristics
                                                      was intended to
                                                      not be judgmental,<br=
>
                                                      and independent of
                                                      any usage context.<br=
>
                                                      For something like
                                                      voltage, EMAN is
                                                      just reporting
                                                      what it<br>
                                                      measures.=C2=A0 From
                                                      what we know from
                                                      an EMAN
                                                      perspective,<br>
                                                      there is no
                                                      knowledge of what
                                                      values are
                                                      preferred to
                                                      others.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      I don&#39;t have my
                                                      IEEE Dictionary
                                                      handy to see if
                                                      there is anything<br>=
                                                      suitable there.=C2=A0=
 I
                                                      do agree that
                                                      Quality and
                                                      Characteristics do<br=
>
                                                      mean different
                                                      things.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      --Bruce<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On
                                                        Tue, Jan 24,
                                                        2012 at 9:38 AM,
                                                        John Parello
                                                        (jparello) <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jparello@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jpare=
llo@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                                        wrote:<br>
                                                        <blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
                                                          Hi,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I&#39;m looking a=
t
                                                          the minutes
                                                          from IETF-82
                                                          and it looks
                                                          as if there
                                                          was a<br>
                                                          request to
                                                          change the
                                                          term &quot;power
                                                          quality&quot; to
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I was about to
                                                          make the
                                                          change but saw
                                                          that I am
                                                          using the term
                                                          &quot;power<br>
                                                          quality&quot; as
                                                          directly
                                                          defined by IEC
                                                          60050 and
                                                          there is no
                                                          such term as<br>
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          The definition
                                                          from IEC60050
                                                          is:<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"http:/=
/www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&amp;ievref=3D617-01-0" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&a=
mp;ievref=3D617-01-0</a><br>


                                                          5<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          Power Quality<br>=
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          of the
                                                          electric
                                                          current,
                                                          voltage and
                                                          frequencies at
                                                          a<br>
                                                          given point in
                                                          an electric
                                                          power system,
                                                          evaluated
                                                          against a set
                                                          of<br>
                                                          reference
                                                          technical
                                                          parameters.
                                                          These
                                                          parameters
                                                          might, in some
                                                          cases,<br>
                                                          relate to the
                                                          compatibility
                                                          between
                                                          electricity
                                                          supplied in an
                                                          electric<br>
                                                          power system
                                                          and the loads
                                                          connected to
                                                          that electric
                                                          power system.<br>=
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I&#39;m reluctant
                                                          to change that
                                                          to power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          as the method
                                                          of<br>
                                                          definition is
                                                          that we take
                                                          from a source
                                                          directly at
                                                          first. I see
                                                          no<br>
                                                          source for
                                                          power
                                                          characteristics
                                                          only power
                                                          quality.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Since I can&#39;t
                                                          find a source
                                                          for power
                                                          characteristics,
                                                          a quick search
                                                          on<br>
                                                          how &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          is used shows
                                                          that it refers
                                                          more times on<br>=
                                                          how a device
                                                          uses power.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So to contrast
                                                          =C2=A0&quot;power
                                                          quality&quot;
                                                          describes the
                                                          electrical
                                                          characteristics<b=
r>
                                                          (voltage and
                                                          frequency).
                                                          &quot;Power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          however =C2=A0mor=
e
                                                          commonly<br>
                                                          refers to
                                                          (example) a
                                                          device using
                                                          say 100W at
                                                          boot up and
                                                          the 50W at a<br>
                                                          steady state
                                                          over time.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So while the
                                                          minutes state
                                                          this...<br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          refer to these
                                                          as Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          instead of<br>
                                                          Power<br>
                                                          Quality to
                                                          avoid
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BC] - Asks
                                                          room if Power
                                                          Characteristics
                                                          is OK. =C2=A0Note=
s
                                                          no objections.<br=
>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Other terms
                                                          that discussed
                                                          on the list:<br>
                                                          - Power State
                                                          Set<br>
                                                          - Energy
                                                          Object
                                                          Relationship<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          [BN] -
                                                          Proposed to
                                                          just continue
                                                          the discussion
                                                          on the list.<br>
                                                          &quot;&quot;&quot=
;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Very easy
                                                          research shows
                                                          that =C2=A0&quot;=
power                                                          quality&quot=
; and
                                                          &quot;power<br>
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          are two
                                                          distinct terms
                                                          and not
                                                          =C2=A0interchange=
able.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So I&#39;m asking
                                                          &quot;Are you
                                                          sure?&quot;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I proposed to
                                                          keep &quot;power
                                                          quality&quot; as
                                                          defined by
                                                          IEC60050 and
                                                          if needed<br>
                                                          I can add
                                                          &quot;power
                                                          characteristics&q=
uot;
                                                          as described
                                                          above if
                                                          someone has a<br>=
                                                          reference. I
                                                          strongly
                                                          propose not to
                                                          use them
                                                          interchangeably.<=
br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Feedback?<br>
                                                          Jp<br>
                                                          <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          eman mailing
                                                          list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto=
:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/eman</a><br>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br clear=3D"all">
                                                      <br>
                                                      -- <br>
                                                      <font size=3D"4"><b>B=
ruce
                                                          Nordman</b></font=
><br>
                                                      <span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence

                                                        Berkeley
                                                        National
                                                        Laboratory</span><b=
r>
                                                      <a href=3D"http://eet=
d.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                                      <a href=3D"mailto:BNo=
rdman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                                      <a href=3D"tel:510-48=
6-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                                      m: <a href=3D"tel:510=
-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <fieldset></fieldset>=
                                                      <br>
                                                      <pre>________________=
_______________________________
eman mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:eman@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eman@ietf.org</a><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eman</a></pre>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <br clear=3D"all">
                                          <br>
                                          -- <br>
                                          <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce
                                              Nordman</b></font><br>
                                          <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)=
">Lawrence
                                            Berkeley National Laboratory</s=
pan><br>
                                          <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea=
/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.go=
v" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                                          <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" valu=
e=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                                          m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" v=
alue=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                                          <br>
                                        </span> </blockquote>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </span> </blockquote>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear=3D"all"><span><font color=3D"#888888">
                    <br>
                    -- <br>
                    <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
                    <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley
                      National Laboratory</span><br>
                    <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_b=
lank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
                    <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">B=
Nordman@LBL.gov</a><br>
                    <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" tar=
get=3D"_blank">510-486-7089</a><br>
                    m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" =
target=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
                    <br>
                  </font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">
                </font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">
              </font></span></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">
          </font></span></blockquote><span><font color=3D"#888888">
        </font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">
        <br>
        <br clear=3D"all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <font size=3D"4"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br>
        <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkeley National
          Laboratory</span><br>
        <a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.l=
bl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
        <a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.=
gov</a><br>
        <a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blan=
k">510-486-7089</a><br>
        m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" target=3D"_b=
lank">510-501-7943</a><br>
        <br>
      </font></span></span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4=
"><b>Bruce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrenc=
e Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/=
nordman" target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>

<a href=3D"mailto:BNordman@LBL.gov" target=3D"_blank">BNordman@LBL.gov</a><=
br><a href=3D"tel:510-486-7089" value=3D"+15104867089" target=3D"_blank">51=
0-486-7089</a><br>m: <a href=3D"tel:510-501-7943" value=3D"+15105017943" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">510-501-7943</a><br>
<br></div></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=3D"4"><b>Bru=
ce Nordman</b></font><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,153)">Lawrence Berkel=
ey National Laboratory</span><br><a href=3D"http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman"=
 target=3D"_blank">eetd.lbl.gov/ea/nordman</a><br>
BNordman@LBL.gov<br>510-486-7089<br>m: 510-501-7943<br><br>

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To: Bruce Nordman <bnordman@lbl.gov>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:42:41 -0600
Thread-Topic: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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Subject: Re: [eman] Power Quality versus Power Characteristics
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