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ESMTP id v61CZs52001514; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 07:35:55 -0500 Received: from mail-azure.research.att.com (mail-azure.research.att.com [135.207.255.18]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v61CZn5q001320; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 07:35:49 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njmtcas2.research.att.com [135.207.255.47]) by mail-azure.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D88AE08C8; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 08:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njmtcas2.research.att.com ([fe80::d550:ec84:f872:cad9%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 08:35:48 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Sudhin Jacob , IETF IPPM WG CC: Bharat M Gaonkar Thread-Topic: draft-bhaprasud-ippm-pm-03 - Update Thread-Index: AQHS8lp+8CgEow2vU0mSR6OC1zCMTqI+5osAgAABcfA= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:35:47 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF25FE8E58@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF25FE8E40@njmtexg5.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF25FE8E40@njmtexg5.research.att.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [73.178.187.36] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF25FE8E58njmtexg5researc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-07-01_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1707010220 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-bhaprasud-ippm-pm-03 - Update X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org 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(sonic329-27.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.67.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0341A127601 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 18:17:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1499044667; bh=Kq+wi8wpsuPscy3lCDp01mfBXBa5Y0fmo4k0GBdyKF4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=hqqs6wwM0LYsXopMlNQR06pFXrpOlRGxbZkCjn5XYvzb8BSGVX4Pl3m3Xy1Ukm4SW63kndopujIxs/hvCD6UDi5xNSSP1xVghH8UTvU9Vbw9d4QPHjJ7D2e4yC3IBrtMaVObnLuhtm4ahpnLVEXsd4GhFMbLimeIxB4znhG2wBzgJ/A/y9fU/t3e/FPAfLNXHeSG2Xcng0HkDJ+AqQVxNzO3rykjOz+nq8DTJ+ryPeBkmEG4871aybyN/IKjBjEPFF+kv031ZBrFvqKHcQoXNb2thon/VcySAQbT5rCPf9aXdhvUHvFHLFwgedPOtAFs0wvBodo2ZWvyKGnevd9zQA== X-YMail-OSG: K6LECzYVM1nG8A2vMrdd1ML5Qhm73wj1cucFUGFtcvsZdWmueALy4YCnojAyUpP ftJM1IrYJxv5e6l4LccAbm8aIZ855gxM2boukshn4x1hhvUAjfI8jsLOAZtphWefBAHsnPK0N7dh 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<4F5FBC6F-F92A-4A28-9A22-3EE9DD541CC4@cooperw.in> References: <149200885746.15718.798617550888585150.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <922169529.4233696.1495466806431@mail.yahoo.com> <4F5FBC6F-F92A-4A28-9A22-3EE9DD541CC4@cooperw.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3082330_1991347944.1499044666767" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.9978 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/59.0.3071.115 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 01:17:51 -0000 ------=_Part_3082330_1991347944.1499044666767 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alissa, > Thanks, this seems better to me. Thanks so much for your response. =C2=A0 The current draft-13 (https://data= tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option/) contains the accepte= d=C2=A0new language below and has some additions to further explain the pay= load. =C2=A0I believe that your comments are integrated into the wording. = =C2=A0 Accepted language ------------------------ As far as deducing the content of the payload, it is conceivable=C2=A0that = an attacker could attempt to deduce the type of application in=C2=A0use by = noting the server time and payload length. Having said that,some encryption= algorithms attempt to obfuscate the packet length to avoid just such vulnerabilities. In the future, encryption algorithmsmay= wish to obfuscate the server time as well.=20 Language in draft-13 ----------------------As far as deducing the content of the payload, in ter= ms of theapplication level information such as web page, user name, userpas= sword and so on, it appears to us that PDM is quite unhelpful inthis regard= .=C2=A0Having said that, the ability to separate wire-time=C2=A0from proces= sing time may potentially provide an attacker with=C2=A0additional informat= ion. It is conceivable that an attacker could=C2=A0attempt to deduce the ty= pe of application in use by noting the server=C2=A0time and payload length.= Some encryption algorithms attempt to=C2=A0obfuscate the packet length to = avoid just such vulnerabilities. In=C2=A0the future, encryption algorithms = may wish to obfuscate the server=C2=A0time as well. =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini >On May 22, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > >>Alissa, > > >>Please let me know if you are OK with the proposed change. > > > > >>>Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > >>>draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option-09: No Objection > > > > > >>>Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l > >>>for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > >>>The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >>>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option/ > > > > > > > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>COMMENT: > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>The analysis in Sec 4.2 seems to be missing some considerations. In case= s > >>>where the packet payload is encrypted and the attacker does not have > >>>access to the keys, the attacker does not in fact have access to the > >>>entire packet, in which case PDM provides more information than a packet > >>>without PDM. Also in those cases, it seems like including PDM informatio= n > >>>would generally make a packet stream more susceptible to traffic analysi= s > >>>insofar as the timing and sequence information may provide additional > >>>indicators about the type of application in use, not just the speed of > >>>the end host. > > > > > >Are you OK if I do the following: > > > > >OLD >------ >=C2=A0Since PDM passes in the clear, a concern arises as to whether the >=C2=A0data can be used to fingerprint the system or somehow obtain >=C2=A0information about the contents of the payload. =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0Let us discuss fingerprinting of the end host first. It is possible >=C2=A0that seeing the pattern of deltas or the absolute values could give >=C2=A0some information as to the speed of the end host - that is, if it is >=C2=A0a very fast system or an older, slow device. =C2=A0 This may be usef= ul to >=C2=A0the attacker. =C2=A0However, if the attacker has access to PDM, the >=C2=A0attacker also has access to the entire packet and could make such a >=C2=A0deduction based merely on the time frames elapsed between packets >=C2=A0WITHOUT PDM. =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0As far as deducing the content of the payload, it appears to us that >=C2=A0PDM is quite unhelpful in this regard. > > > > > > >New >------ > > >Since PDM passes in the clear, a concern arises as to whether the > >data can be used to fingerprint the system or somehow obtain >information about the contents of the payload. =C2=A0 > > >Let us discuss fingerprinting of the end host first. It is possible >that seeing the pattern of deltas or the absolute values could give >some information as to the speed of the end host - that is, if it is >a very fast system or an older, slow device. =C2=A0 This may be useful to >the attacker. =C2=A0However, if the attacker has access to PDM, the >attacker also has access to the entire packet and could make such a >deduction based merely on the time frames elapsed between packets >WITHOUT PDM. =C2=A0 > > >As far as deducing the content of the payload, it is conceivable >that an attacker could attempt to deduce the type of application in >use by noting the server time and payload length. =C2=A0 Having said that, >some encryption algorithms attempt to obfuscate the=C2=A0packet length >to avoid just such vulnerabilities. =C2=A0In the future, encryption algori= thms >may wish to obfuscate the server time as well. =C2=A0 > > > > > > ------=_Part_3082330_1991347944.1499044666767 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alissa,
> Thanks, this seems better to me.

Thanks so much for your r= esponse.   The current draft-13 (https://dat= atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option/) contains the accept= ed new language below and has some additions to further explain= the payload.  I believe that your comments are integrated into the wo= rding.  


Accep= ted language
------------------------
As far as deducing the content= of the payload, it is conceivable th= at an attacker could attempt to deduce the type of application in 
use by noting the server time and payload= length. Having said that, some encryption algorithms attempt to obfuscate the packet length
to avoid just such vulnerabilities. In the future, encryption algorith= ms may wish to obfuscate the server time as well. =20

Language in draft-13
------------= ----------
As far as= deducing the content of the payload, in terms of the application level information such as web page, user name, user password and so on, it appears to us that PDM is quite unhelpful in this regard. Having said that, the ability t= o separate wire-time from processing time may potentially provide an attacker with=  additional information. It is concei= vable that an attacker could attempt = to deduce the type of application in use by noting the server <= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, &q= uot;Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym1= 9_1_1499030823712_44167">time and payload length. Some encryption algorit= hms attempt to obfuscate the packet l= ength to avoid just such vulnerabilities. In the future, encryption algorithms may wish to obfuscate the server=  time as well.

=   
Thanks,
Nalini

>On M= ay 22, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.= com> wrote:
>
>>Alissa,
>
>
>>Please= let me know if you are OK with the proposed change.
>
>
>= ;
>
>>>Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot pos= ition for
>
>>>draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option-09: No Obj= ection
>
>
>
>
>
>>>Please refer = to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>
>= ;>>for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
= >
>
>
>
>
>>>The document, along wit= h other ballot positions, can be found here:
>
>>>https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-6man-pdm-option/
>
><= br>>
>
>
>
>
>>>--------------------= --------------------------------------------------
>
>>>C= OMMENT:
>
>>>--------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>
>
>
>>>The analy= sis in Sec 4.2 seems to be missing some considerations. In cases
>>>>where the packet payload is encrypted and the attacker does no= t have
>
>>>access to the keys, the attacker does not in = fact have access to the
>
>>>entire packet, in which case= PDM provides more information than a packet
>
>>>without= PDM. Also in those cases, it seems like including PDM information
><= br>>>>would generally make a packet stream more susceptible to tra= ffic analysis
>
>>>insofar as the timing and sequence inf= ormation may provide additional
>
>>>indicators about the= type of application in use, not just the speed of
>
>>>t= he end host.
>
>
>
>
>
>Are you OK if I= do the following:
>
>
>
>
>OLD
>------=
> Since PDM passes in the clear, a concern arises as to whether= the
> data can be used to fingerprint the system or somehow obt= ain
> information about the contents of the payload.  
&= gt;
>
> Let us discuss fingerprinting of the end host firs= t. It is possible
> that seeing the pattern of deltas or the abs= olute values could give
> some information as to the speed of th= e end host - that is, if it is
> a very fast system or an older,= slow device.   This may be useful to
> the attacker.  = ;However, if the attacker has access to PDM, the
> attacker also= has access to the entire packet and could make such a
> deducti= on based merely on the time frames elapsed between packets
> WIT= HOUT PDM.  
>
>
> As far as deducing the conten= t of the payload, it appears to us that
> PDM is quite unhelpful= in this regard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>New=
>------
>
>
>Since PDM passes in the clear, a conc= ern arises as to whether the
>
>data can be used to fingerprint= the system or somehow obtain
>information about the contents of the = payload.  
>
>
>Let us discuss fingerprinting of the= end host first. It is possible
>that seeing the pattern of deltas or= the absolute values could give
>some information as to the speed of = the end host - that is, if it is
>a very fast system or an older, slo= w device.   This may be useful to
>the attacker.  However, = if the attacker has access to PDM, the
>attacker also has access to t= he entire packet and could make such a
>deduction based merely on the= time frames elapsed between packets
>WITHOUT PDM.  
>
= >
>As far as deducing the content of the payload, it is conceivabl= e
>that an attacker could attempt to deduce the type of application i= n
>use by noting the server time and payload length.   Having sa= id that,
>some encryption algorithms attempt to obfuscate the pa= cket length
>to avoid just such vulnerabilities.  In the future,= encryption algorithms
>may wish to obfuscate the server time as well= .  
>
>
>
>
>
>
------=_Part_3082330_1991347944.1499044666767-- From nobody Mon Jul 3 06:07:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBEE124D37; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 06:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8_7gZ9Ax4t8i; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 06:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (mta240.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBA16129BA4; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 06:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id B0B08602DE; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 15:06:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.42]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 92D8616005E; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 15:06:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b08d:5b75:e92c:a45f]) by OPEXCLILM41.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::c845:f762:8997:ec86%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 15:06:59 +0200 From: To: "quic@ietf.org" CC: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHS8+Gnfganiwqd80yN+D/vXwRoVaJCDrpg Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 13:06:57 +0000 Message-ID: <29477_1499087219_595A4173_29477_477_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB919AC4538@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <149907533000.4990.3917157363711000733@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149907533000.4990.3917157363711000733@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] TR: I-D Action: draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 13:07:25 -0000 Hi, We posted a draft which discusses constraints that QUIC is pushing on netwo= rks performance measurements (troubleshooting, fallback, goodput, fairness.= ..).=20 Feedbacks are welcome. Abstract: On-path network performance measurements methods currently deployed contribute to the ossification of the Internet because they are expensive to deploy and to maintain. This draft motivates the exposure of QUIC header fields for on-path network measurements and their specification in the QUIC core protocol as a solution to avoid on-path network performance measurements to ossify the IP stack in the future. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-= 00. Best Regards Emile -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de in= ternet-drafts@ietf.org Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 3 juillet 2017 11:49 =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : QUIC Interdomain Troubleshooting Authors : Emile Stephan Mathilde Cayla Arnaud Braud Fred Fieau Filename : draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: On-path network performance measurements methods currently deployed contribute to the ossification of the Internet because they are expensive to deploy and to maintain. This draft motivates the exposure of QUIC header fields for on-path network measurements and their specification in the QUIC core protocol as a solution to avoid on-path network performance measurements to ossify the IP stack in the future. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshoo= ting/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubleshooting-= 00=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-stephan-quic-interdomain-troubl= eshooting-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ie= tf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. 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Giuseppe , Al Morton CC: "ippm@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHS9FmiWqyq68QSLEuP62lzfeL9Kg== Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 00:08:17 +0000 Message-ID: <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> References: <149848656092.31761.14093022868269972850@ietfa.amsl.com> <550fed16b300468cb6bb37b5d14068d2@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: <550fed16b300468cb6bb37b5d14068d2@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0E07E13BE54249108B79FAF4317471C5ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 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Thread-Topic: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHS9FmmjCFvt0bioEu3xm43S0H00aJDUyow Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 08:52:00 +0000 Message-ID: <1c9ba3738ee046ad89440b430f239281@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <149848656092.31761.14093022868269972850@ietfa.amsl.com> <550fed16b300468cb6bb37b5d14068d2@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.238] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1c9ba3738ee046ad89440b430f239281TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHStciPDrS4MFMYYutxyYyWnx6t4PF om3tZEaL1Tu62Sx6HrxjdmD1eNk/h9Fjyu+NrB5LlvxkCmCO4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mo49Okx 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QGNpc2NvLmNvbSI+Y2FybG9zQGNpc2NvLmNvbTwvYT48YnI+DQo8YnI+DQo8aT7igJxTb21ldGlt ZXMgSSB1c2UgYmlnIHdvcmRzIHRoYXQgSSBkbyBub3QgZnVsbHkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCwgdG8gbWFr ZSBteXNlbGYgc291bmQgbW9yZSZuYnNwO3Bob3Rvc3ludGhlc2lzLiZxdW90OzwvaT48bzpwPjwv bzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9k eT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_1c9ba3738ee046ad89440b430f239281TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_-- From nobody Tue Jul 4 11:23:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD92D132735; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 11:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from 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(8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v64IFKGf034789; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 14:23:00 -0400 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2bgaydtfwp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 04 Jul 2017 14:22:59 -0400 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v64IMxHu081288; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:22:59 -0500 Received: from dalint01.pst.cso.att.com (dalint01.pst.cso.att.com [135.31.133.159]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v64IMsBM081277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:22:55 -0500 Received: from clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (clpi183.sldc.sbc.com [135.41.1.46]) by dalint01.pst.cso.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 4 Jul 2017 18:22:49 GMT Received: from sldc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v64IMnSg029000; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:22:49 -0500 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v64IMhhR028823; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:22:43 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njmtcas2.research.att.com [135.207.255.47]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5213FE4EE9; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 14:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg4.research.att.com ([fe80::8cd:baa3:219e:5bd4]) by njmtcas2.research.att.com ([fe80::d550:ec84:f872:cad9%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 14:22:42 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Fioccola Giuseppe CC: "ippm@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHS9FmpCH1AXJom6k2KtT0uTtM6A6JD9UWd Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 18:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF44FF50C1@njmtexg4.research.att.com> References: <149848656092.31761.14093022868269972850@ietfa.amsl.com> <550fed16b300468cb6bb37b5d14068d2@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local>, <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [107.77.202.81] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-07-04_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1707040310 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 18:23:15 -0000 Hi Carlos and Giuseppe, Thanks for raising the issue of the new text, Carlos, which is clearly related to recent exchanges on the mailing list, (where I agree with you): The RFC 7799 discussion of "Class C" is about equivalent results. There is no "conversion from hybrid to passive method" after extensive test= ing shows that the results with each technique produces equivalent results for a specific path under test. So, the wording: " [I-D.mirsky-sfc-pmamm] describes how the alternate marking method can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a Service Function Chaining (SFC) domain. " is suspect, pending further investigation. Let's move ahead carefully here. There seems to be a pattern of re-interpretation that could be an unnecessary=20 use of WG resources.=20 Thanks and regards, Al =20 ________________________________________ From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [cpignata@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2017 8:08 PM To: Fioccola Giuseppe; MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) Cc: ippm@ietf.org; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Ciao, Giuseppe! (Hi, Al) Thanks for closing the loop on the list with the review, and for addressing= comments and incorporating updates! Looking at the diffs, I noticed the following new section: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05#section-5.3 Which includes text like: [I-D.mirsky-sfc-pmamm] describes how the alternate marking method can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a Service Function Chaining (SFC) domain. I would love to hear Al=92s take on this as the author of RFC 7799. (and BTW, seems quite premature to reference that individual draft which ta= rgets SFC, when it does not even specify location of fields) I get it that there are fields purposefully defined for alternate marking, = as opposed to overloading other fields. However, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7799#section-3.6 MUST NOT add, change, or remove packets or fields or change field values anywhere along the path So this is changing field values, even through the fields are for this purp= ose. This really looks to me like a Hybrid. The extreme case is adding a sh= im like IOAM =97 is that passive? We agreed it is Hybrid. Al, what do you think? In any event, Giuseppe, thanks much for the rev++! =97 Carlos. On Jun 26, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe > wrote: Hi All, This new version of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark addresses comments received du= ring WGLC phase. I have included all the comments and the most important changes are: - the title is now "Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid perform= ance monitoring". - the addition of a paragraph in the introduction section about the RFC7799= definitions. In addition there are other minor changes and typos. Thanks to all the reviewers, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg Inviato: luned=EC 26 giugno 2017 16:16 A: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ippm@ietf.org Oggetto: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics of the IETF. Title : Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid pe= rformance monitoring Authors : Giuseppe Fioccola Alessandro Capello Mauro Cociglio Luca Castaldelli Mach(Guoyi) Chen Lianshu Zheng Greg Mirsky Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2017-06-26 Abstract: This document describes a method to perform packet loss, delay and jitter measurements on live traffic. This method is based on Alternate Marking (Coloring) technique. A report on the operational experiment done at Telecom Italia is explained in order to give an example and show the method applicability. This technique can be applied in various situations as detailed in this document and could be considered passive or hybrid depending on the application. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =97 Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com =93Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself= sound more photosynthesis." From nobody Wed Jul 5 01:54:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87588131BD7; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 01:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qiEgxfzasAGV; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 01:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.telecomitalia.it (mx04.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72362131BE4; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 01:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97918-d55ff7000000a862-5a-595ca9233bdb Received: from TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.27]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx04.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 5D.5E.43106.329AC595; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:53:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" CC: "ippm@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHS9FmmjCFvt0bioEu3xm43S0H00aJD2tGAgAEMOWA= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:53:54 +0000 Message-ID: <8f7d0eff01c943e5bef1f9da0a6cf8c3@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <149848656092.31761.14093022868269972850@ietfa.amsl.com> <550fed16b300468cb6bb37b5d14068d2@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local>, <0E07E13B-E542-4910-8B79-FAF4317471C5@cisco.com> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF44FF50C1@njmtexg4.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF44FF50C1@njmtexg4.research.att.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.249] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHWld5ZUykwcX/ghZbj01ktPj0bgeL RdvayYwWq3d0s1n0PHjH7MDq8bJ/DqPHlN8bWT2WLPnJFMAcxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx4f4/ toLnDhW7nnxibGA8btrFyMkhIWAicfn4FrYuRi4OIYGpTBJL559gA0mwCdhIHHwFYYsIpEh0 L/gGVsQsMJ9RYu2eZewgCWEBe4mzH3cwQhQ5Stx49IAdwraS2HL9HVicRUBFYtrei8wgNq9A oMTsWdeZIba1MEn0zT/BApLgBEpcvfeGFcRmFJCVmLB7EVgzs4C4xIvpJ9ghThWQWLLnPDOE LSrx8vE/VgjbQGLr0n0sELaixO/OP2wQtozEwiOTWSHm6EncmDqFDcLWlli28DXUQYISJ2c+ YZnAKDYLybpZSFpmIWmZhaRlASPLKkbR3AoDE72S1JzU5PzczJLEnMxEvcySTYzAWLu5slJi B2P3WudDjAIcjEo8vHdmxkQKsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBWEuHNWAgU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjN waIkzhsxKzpSSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwGg01erm3rinvV6bpKT/+/EXHH8mOzln7duW BofH0182Pn79+cCeh9P2XAgWufri4Brl5aJut3O4RA+ofPi25Y6/+90/UfcFZyi/Njz6pcxW 9BX/hbubrr+cM+mRw4fuueoKGw2ZmNd/U2yvELx0+mmv58Kvm4qOmrywteIPnfEnaUpkYonW CV5LJZbijERDLeai4kQATgcicbECAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] R: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 08:54:01 -0000 Hi Al and Carlos, Thank you, Al, for giving your valuable opinion.=20 I also agree and the statement you mention will be revised or omitted in th= e next version that I can publish immediately after the submission pre-meet= ing block. Thanks, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:acmorton@att.com]=20 Inviato: marted=EC 4 luglio 2017 20:23 A: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Fioccola Giuseppe Cc: ippm@ietf.org; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org Oggetto: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Hi Carlos and Giuseppe, Thanks for raising the issue of the new text, Carlos, which is clearly rela= ted to recent exchanges on the mailing list, (where I agree with you): The RFC 7799 discussion of "Class C" is about equivalent results. There is no "conversion from hybrid to passive method" after extensive test= ing shows that the results with each technique produces equivalent results = for a specific path under test. So, the wording: " [I-D.mirsky-sfc-pmamm] describes how the alternate marking method can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a Service Function Chaining (SFC) domain. " is suspect, pending further investigation. Let's move ahead carefully here. There seems to be a pattern of re-interpre= tation that could be an unnecessary use of WG resources.=20 Thanks and regards, Al =20 ________________________________________ From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [cpignata@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2017 8:08 PM To: Fioccola Giuseppe; MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) Cc: ippm@ietf.org; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Ciao, Giuseppe! (Hi, Al) Thanks for closing the loop on the list with the review, and for addressing= comments and incorporating updates! Looking at the diffs, I noticed the following new section: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05#section-5.3 Which includes text like: [I-D.mirsky-sfc-pmamm] describes how the alternate marking method can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a Service Function Chaining (SFC) domain. I would love to hear Al's take on this as the author of RFC 7799. (and BTW, seems quite premature to reference that individual draft which ta= rgets SFC, when it does not even specify location of fields) I get it that there are fields purposefully defined for alternate marking, = as opposed to overloading other fields. However, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7799#section-3.6 MUST NOT add, change, or remove packets or fields or change field values anywhere along the path So this is changing field values, even through the fields are for this purp= ose. This really looks to me like a Hybrid. The extreme case is adding a sh= im like IOAM - is that passive? We agreed it is Hybrid. Al, what do you think? In any event, Giuseppe, thanks much for the rev++! - Carlos. On Jun 26, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Fioccola Giuseppe > wrote: Hi All, This new version of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark addresses comments received du= ring WGLC phase. I have included all the comments and the most important changes are: - the title is now "Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid perform= ance monitoring". - the addition of a paragraph in the introduction section about the RFC7799= definitions. In addition there are other minor changes and typos. Thanks to all the reviewers, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg Inviato: luned=EC 26 giugno 2017 16:16 A: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ippm@ietf.org Oggetto: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics of the IETF. Title : Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid pe= rformance monitoring Authors : Giuseppe Fioccola Alessandro Capello Mauro Cociglio Luca Castaldelli Mach(Guoyi) Chen Lianshu Zheng Greg Mirsky Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2017-06-26 Abstract: This document describes a method to perform packet loss, delay and jitter measurements on live traffic. This method is based on Alternate Marking (Coloring) technique. A report on the operational experiment done at Telecom Italia is explained in order to give an example and show the method applicability. This technique can be applied in various situations as detailed in this document and could be considered passive or hybrid depending on the application. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm - Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com "Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself s= ound more photosynthesis." From nobody Wed Jul 5 02:29:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB44131B70; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 02:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v_08LU-dh9mk; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 02:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.telecomitalia.it (mx01.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62233131B80; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 02:29:00 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a9790a-69bff700000039de-e4-595cb15aed75 Received: from TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.27]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx01.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 8C.93.14814.A51BC595; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 11:28:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , IETF IPPM WG CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) (cpignata@cisco.com)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Shepherding draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 Thread-Index: AQHS8WmB0+GehhENuECypKyZI+VtDKJE8S1Q Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:28:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <49ECD161-A593-48FE-A61C-CFCB78946C88@trammell.ch> In-Reply-To: <49ECD161-A593-48FE-A61C-CFCB78946C88@trammell.ch> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.249] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrPKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHWjdqY0ykwfd93Baf3u1gsdjY8o7N YvWObjaLngfvmB1YPKb83sjqsWTJTyaPJ/tnsgQwRzUw2iTm5eWXJJakKqSkFifbKrlkFifn JGbmphYphKTmpCbn5yopZKbYKhkrKRTkJCan5qbmldgqJRYUpOalKNlxKWAAG6CyzDyF1Lzk /JTMvHRbJc9gf10LC1NLXUMlu8DS1OKSfIXc1OLixPT0zHyF1IT1ghl/+44wFTRzVvTdvsLc wHiQvYuRk0NCwETiz5KvTF2MXBxCAlOZJNo6F4Il2ARsJA6+OsEGYosI+Eh0LXkPFmcWqJFY eXsFSxcjB4ewgJVE7xkfiBIbic87FkGVG0lc+LgUzGYRUJGYduEFI4jNKxAocb+xixXEFhKw kzj17hlYDaeAvcSG3qNg4xkFZCUm7F7ECLFKXOLF9BNQdwpILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4RtILF1 6T4WCFtR4nfnHzYIW0Zi4ZHJrBBz9CRuTJ3CBmFrSyxb+JoZ4h5BiZMzn7BMYBSbhWTdLCQt s5C0zELSsoCRZRWjaG6FgaFeCST6MksSczIT9TJLNjECU8nNlZVcOxhfr3I+xCjAwajEw1sx KyZSiDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkghvxkKgEG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUYfYIhNZJYSTc4Hprm8knhD EwtLQ2MLCyNDCzNTHMJK4rwRs6IjhQTSgekrOzW1ILUIZhwTB6dUA+PEhZ6v7y+INdhU55FZ 9z9BbsF2vgOGZrp9fbU28yQj5kyf+X1xhUFn0tNaz9ZPd2aVKqdOrN7iv1o266pWVYyyyqzU 38GfnpoztvJqeNw5dPRWZcuSLaXbJ2qv5H27Iu5c0fn9M1fZ1aQ88Ek3q322j3+G8KLfmXUN rUJdXaG/D3hJr+1hu6DEUpyRaKjFXFScCAAPnzm8UgMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] R: Shepherding draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 09:29:03 -0000 Hi Brian, I would like to suggest Carlos Pignataro as shepherd for draft-ietf-ippm-alt= -mark. He has recently reviewed the document and is willing to take this role. Thanks, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Brian Trammell (IETF) Inviato: venerd=EC 30 giugno 2017 08:24 A: IETF IPPM WG Oggetto: [ippm] Shepherding draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 Greetings, all, In accordance with an [IESG statement](https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/d= ocument-shepherds.html) that we've been slow to pay attention to here in IPP= M, we're looking for a volunteer to shepherd draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-05 thr= ough the publication process. Ideally, this would be a non-author who has reviewed the document. The docum= ent shepherd role is described in [RFC4858](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4= 858), but the main responsibility is the document shepherd writeup (section= 3.1) Please reply to ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org to volunteer. In the future, we'l= l start the process of assigning a shepherd to a document much earlier, with= WG adoption. Thanks, cheers, Brian Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. From nobody Wed Jul 5 05:11:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B51132989; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 05:11:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Spencer Dawkins To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics@ietf.org, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@trammell.ch, ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149925666367.17322.13485523980141971034.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 05:11:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics-11: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:11:04 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics-11: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I saw one editorial nit in new text added to -11. If this gets fixed before the telechat, fine, and if not, it should be fixed afterwards. s/deigned/designed/ From nobody Thu Jul 6 22:47:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4C912EA58 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 22:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rNkA3On53ACl for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 22:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E91126D45 for ; 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Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:23:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [81.92.103.81] (account ietf@trammell.ch HELO [192.168.115.25]) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 23214114 for ippm@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2017 17:23:59 +0200 From: Brian Trammell X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_51A2EE7D-3A48-4CA9-B768-09984C1291DA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:23:57 +0200 Message-Id: To: IETF IPPM WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2017 15:24:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_51A2EE7D-3A48-4CA9-B768-09984C1291DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the = charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM work = within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work doesn't = really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of = edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on bringing = IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction = work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated = the charter. We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: --- OLD Paragraph 1: The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains = standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and = reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running = over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying = network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM = charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement of = these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by = network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics = developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative = performance measurements and not a value judgement. NEW Paragraph 1: The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, = performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and = applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over = IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the = measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they = can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing = groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide = unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value = judgement. Two basic edits here: (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP Performance = Measurement, and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In our = opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a = while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to = metric work. (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM = mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal opinion, = this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though IOAM = can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an OAM = mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing area. = However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything = useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and = control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together = with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance = measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing called = "IOAM" in IPPM. --- OLD Paragraph 6: The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to = enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP = respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards = track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of = measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement = efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as = OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods = of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results = across different implementations. To this end, the WG will define and = maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which = assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics = developed elsewhere. NEW Paragraph 6: The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to = enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP = respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards = track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of = measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement = efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as = OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods = of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results = across different implementations. To this end, the WG defines and = maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which = assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics = developed elsewhere. This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of = registry to present tense, since we're doing it. --- OLD Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken. NEW Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken, for = example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the = networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the = data-plane topology of the measured network. This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work = targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial = characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but = also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the = question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). --- We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term milestones = from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. We've = got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in = the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the mailing = list. Many thanks, best regards, Brian (for the chairs) --Apple-Mail=_51A2EE7D-3A48-4CA9-B768-09984C1291DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZYkqOAAoJEIoSt78L6kaj57kQAKDogZPgSQsZXePr0Wuf78fc EGZ50NlzUaRl8U1332fPkq5+6qUEhdc1s4IkrNVWmvTPl6M73SrfXQA9LfeBCU7u sKjyVhnwoNy4dwEuukBQB/T5/6WWSx36CX/QIFNBgNmdvUgMi60gnURZ/CiH4u5E b/5WCKq0EW8vqb1GnN/sRMGb0lyv94SaevynnfZ0IgtYOeStD9c5CJNpytF0dObN ebDbTxxJAzqNisV0mb6OqmYH+9hyHEnHcwan0jM/xn1gEbmSm3apS6UJkJo+CZHp KmjnvuUqyIa17RlJyblKT7byQZ9XAkYDFBkFDUtZR8HVhGNMuo5S1skXU3DIYwEe dJx0NBj7pIVrC/OxJBqxvHP6GCb8DEM7iYkJCIMGrWRDQYheoTGMT5JUR4UCHbpV l4RAo2GCu/EzAwxlWmfnHb3GffxIZLc2OtdibQbEXxrdn09HR+dtIyfcecnxrt/H sCy/q6jXrVtHhfvAvoBvlPiGgNjVlnKM/TKIDYuUMHQ2mr9cpRQ2ocIPxDHr+o0A wK00XII0BYxnTh/cXXrUqFf8V+GfN9Z6Hb+2TIfwD5p7luTbb1Ga3ZMhi0t76dyD 0R9ovMFqcHx9aAdojPTP2/FmbimSKn/WeeNKyOXn3EVDGOrAgffRBEwCxIlsQCIt 63UN//tVHm0Lj1u/x9Ny =XKNE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_51A2EE7D-3A48-4CA9-B768-09984C1291DA-- From nobody Sun Jul 9 10:23:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F040E12EA53 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bsDu2kX-lTt9 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D48D1252BA for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v69HFJFA026247; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:23:29 -0400 Received: from flpd657.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp9.sbc.com [144.160.128.153]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2bkc3bke7c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 09 Jul 2017 13:23:28 -0400 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flpd657.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v69HNS0H052363; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:23:28 -0700 Received: from flpi488.ffdc.sbc.com (flpi488.ffdc.sbc.com [130.4.162.182]) by flpd657.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v69HNJJK052274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:23:22 -0700 Received: from tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com [135.31.184.157]) by flpi488.ffdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:23:06 GMT Received: from dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v69HN5Yr072619; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 12:23:05 -0500 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v69HMxbZ072457; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 12:22:59 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njmtcas2.research.att.com [135.207.255.47]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967DFE4CD9; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg4.research.att.com ([fe80::8cd:baa3:219e:5bd4]) by njmtcas2.research.att.com ([fe80::d550:ec84:f872:cad9%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:22:58 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Brian Trammell , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM Thread-Index: AQHS+MdswPZ74uzYq0WtZnt/q14XJ6JLteCw Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:22:57 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [73.178.187.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-07-09_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1707090305 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2017 17:23:34 -0000 Hi Brian and Bill, Thanks for preparing a new charter proposal and organizing this message to highlight the changes. I agree with your proposals. I have one further proposal for the last sentence of paragraph 1. OLD (and your NEW): Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased=20 quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. I propose to delete/replace the last phrase, which I think has been present since the very first charter. IIRC, the concern was that contributions=20 might attempt to establish service acceptance thresholds, or other numerical performance requirements/objectives using the metrics. The work of setting numerical objectives proceeded elsewhere (ITU-T Rec Y.1541), and the Earth continued to rotate. If we want to ensure the status quo, we could say: s/and not a value judgement/but numerical thresholds for the metrics are ou= t-of-scope/ I also suggest this change with MBM in mind, where we have testing outcomes of Pass/Fail/Inconclusive (PFI). Of course, the user supplies the target rate, RTT, and/or loss ratio numerical values, not the working group. So we could express an explicit restriction that does not hamper MBM PFI: NEW^2: Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased=20 quantitative performance measurements, but numerical thresholds for=20 the metrics are out-of-scope. Or, we could remove the phrase, and refer any contributions on=20 numerical thresholds to ITU-T SG 12, Question 17, to avoid=20 overlapping work with another SDO (coordination with this SDO should also be mentioned somewhere). NEW^3: Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased=20 quantitative performance measurements.=20 thanks for considering this proposal, and regards, Al > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell > Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 11:24 AM > To: IETF IPPM WG > Subject: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM >=20 > Greetings, all, >=20 > Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the > charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM work > within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work doesn't > really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of > edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on bringing > IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction > work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated > the charter. >=20 > We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 1: >=20 > The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains > standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and > reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running > over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying > network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM > charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement of > these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by > network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics > developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative > performance measurements and not a value judgement. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 1: >=20 > The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and > maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, > performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and > applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over > IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the > measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they > can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing > groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide > unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value > judgement. >=20 >=20 > Two basic edits here: >=20 > (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP Performance > Measurement, and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In our > opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a > while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to > metric work. >=20 > (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM > mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal opinion, > this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though IOAM > can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an OAM > mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing area. > However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything > useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and > control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together > with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance > measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing called > "IOAM" in IPPM. >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 6: >=20 > The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to > enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP > respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards > track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of > measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement > efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as > OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods > of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results > across different implementations. To this end, the WG will define and > maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which > assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics > developed elsewhere. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 6: >=20 > The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to > enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP > respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards > track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of > measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement > efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as > OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods > of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results > across different implementations. To this end, the WG defines and > maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which > assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics > developed elsewhere. >=20 >=20 > This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of > registry to present tense, since we're doing it. >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 7: >=20 > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of > information about the context in which measurements were taken. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 7: >=20 > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of > information about the context in which measurements were taken, for > example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the > networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the data- > plane topology of the measured network. >=20 >=20 > This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work > targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial > characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but > also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the > question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). >=20 > --- >=20 > We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term milestones > from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. >=20 >=20 > Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. We've > got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in > the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the mailing > list. >=20 >=20 > Many thanks, best regards, >=20 > Brian (for the chairs) From nobody Sun Jul 9 15:02:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBEB12F290 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 15:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sPyAuR8CtV-o for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 679531200ED for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=30580; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1499637746; x=1500847346; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=gQujgR3tm6zNYRfcMTyAlK8hncmqqHUxkeeHKwBOkgc=; b=TRmVV0MaYTxNTTLf7uCtpF8a3oEDEaujwXoGOmPLYSRwUuD3YmTGIxuR EIN8sq3IA5mT1S8h+ZEOpwsbc+VtcBS1j+bodK8hxTE4ARAqouQRojBPR qyI2thJVxLF3eAK0oBCo0Ij+f0DoM6YHT7WbbuAgbadpAsUbkkjG4gGQ7 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CYAAClp2JZ/4MNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgy0tZIEUhFOJNpFpdJUQghEhAQqFcAKDST8YAQIBAQEBAQEBayi?= =?us-ascii?q?FGAEBAQEDAQFlBwsMBAIBCBEEAQEWCwcHJwsUCQgCBA4FiUtkEKx5izkBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYBYMog0yBYAErgkU0hEZKGYMEgjEFiU2NaIdpAos?= =?us-ascii?q?LiH2CDIVLikuJWoc6KYQCAR84gQp1FUkSAYcDdgGGO4I/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,336,1496102400"; d="scan'208,217";a="450865004" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2017 22:02:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (xch-rtp-020.cisco.com [64.101.220.160]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v69M2Alj001517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:02:10 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 18:02:09 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 18:02:09 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" CC: Brian Trammell , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM Thread-Index: AQHS+Mdt3sP56RdGc0O1/0iMB0dTR6JMAYKAgAAK9Do= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:02:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1E003B2B-4C44-4E75-BCA2-C1DB1CF037B8@cisco.com> References: , <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1E003B2B4C444E75BCA2C1DB1CF037B8ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2017 22:02:29 -0000 --_000_1E003B2B4C444E75BCA2C1DB1CF037B8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Brian for proactively bringing this discussion on the list before= Prague. All the proposed changes below bring the charter (i.e., the contract betwee= n the WG and the IETF) closer to reality and remove potential ambiguities a= nd sources of misinterpretation. I believe that all these edits serve the h= igher purpose of charter hygiene and forward-looking polishing, and are not= narrowly written solely with iOAM in mind. As such, I very much support this proposal. Related, and likely a question for Benoit, but curious about the PM-Directo= rate and whether this is OBE (I've not seen traffic for a couple years): https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html I also agree with Al and support the removal (instead of rewrite) of the ex= tra sentence. Please find a couple small follow-ups inline. Sent from my iPad On Jul 9, 2017, at 1:23 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) > wrote: Hi Brian and Bill, Thanks for preparing a new charter proposal and organizing this message to highlight the changes. I agree with your proposals. I have one further proposal for the last sentence of paragraph 1. OLD (and your NEW): Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. I propose to delete/replace the last phrase, which I think has been present since the very first charter. IIRC, the concern was that contributions might attempt to establish service acceptance thresholds, or other numerical performance requirements/objectives using the metrics. The work of setting numerical objectives proceeded elsewhere (ITU-T Rec Y.1541), and the Earth continued to rotate. If we want to ensure the status quo, we could say: s/and not a value judgement/but numerical thresholds for the metrics are ou= t-of-scope/ I also suggest this change with MBM in mind, where we have testing outcomes of Pass/Fail/Inconclusive (PFI). Of course, the user supplies the target rate, RTT, and/or loss ratio numerical values, not the working group. So we could express an explicit restriction that does not hamper MBM PFI: NEW^2: Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements, but numerical thresholds for the metrics are out-of-scope. Or, we could remove the phrase, and refer any contributions on numerical thresholds to ITU-T SG 12, Question 17, to avoid overlapping work with another SDO (coordination with this SDO should also be mentioned somewhere). NEW^3: Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements. +1 to this one. thanks for considering this proposal, and regards, Al -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 11:24 AM To: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM Greetings, all, Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM work within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work doesn't really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on bringing IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated the charter. We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: --- OLD Paragraph 1: The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. NEW Paragraph 1: The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. Two basic edits here: (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP Performance Measurement, This is a very important change. Thanks for raising it. and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In our opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to metric work. I agree. Editorial question: where it says: "These metrics are designed such that...= " should that be: "These metrics, protocols, and methodologies are designed= such that..."? (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal opinion, this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though IOAM can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an OAM mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing area. However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing called "IOAM" in IPPM. --- OLD Paragraph 6: The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG will define and maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. NEW Paragraph 6: The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG defines and maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of registry to present tense, since we're doing it. --- OLD Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken. NEW Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken, for example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the data- plane topology of the measured network. This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). Good clarification. The "for example" speaks to these, but I would add that context is not limi= ted to this enumeration. --- We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term milestones from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. We've got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the mailing list. Thanks!!! Carlos. Many thanks, best regards, Brian (for the chairs) _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_1E003B2B4C444E75BCA2C1DB1CF037B8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Brian for proactively bringing this discussion on the list b= efore Prague. 

All the proposed changes below bring the charter (i.e., the contract b= etween the WG and the IETF) closer to reality and remove potential ambiguit= ies and sources of misinterpretation. I believe that all these edits serve = the higher purpose of charter hygiene and forward-looking polishing, and are not narrowly written solely with iO= AM in mind. 

As such, I very much support this proposal. 

Related, and likely a question for Benoit, but curious about the PM-Di= rectorate and whether this is OBE (I've not seen traffic for a couple years= ):
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html

I also agree with Al and support the removal (instead of rewrite) of t= he extra sentence. 

Please find a couple small follow-ups inline. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2017, at 1:23 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acmorton@att.com> wrote:

Hi Brian and Bill,

Thanks for preparing a new charter proposal and organizing
this message to highlight the changes. I agree with your
proposals.

I have one further proposal for the last sentence of
paragraph 1.

OLD (and your NEW):
Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased
quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement.

I propose to delete/replace the last phrase, which I think has been p= resent
since the very first charter. IIRC, the concern was that contribution= s
might attempt to establish service acceptance thresholds, or other
numerical performance requirements/objectives using the metrics.
The work of setting numerical objectives proceeded elsewhere (ITU-T Rec Y.1541), and the Earth continued to rotate.

If we want to ensure the status quo, we could say:
s/and not a value judgement/but numerical thresholds for the metrics = are out-of-scope/

I also suggest this change with MBM in mind, where we have
testing outcomes of Pass/Fail/Inconclusive (PFI). Of course, the user=
supplies the target rate, RTT, and/or loss ratio numerical values,
not the working group.

So we could express an explicit restriction that does not hamper MBM = PFI:

NEW^2:
Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased
quantitative performance measurements, but numerical thresholds for <= /span>
the metrics are out-of-scope.

Or, we could remove the phrase, and refer any contributions on
numerical thresholds to ITU-T SG 12, Question 17, to avoid overlapping work with another SDO (coordination with this SDO<= br> should also be mentioned somewhere).

NEW^3:
Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased
quantitative performance measurements.


+1 to this one. 

thanks for considering this proposal, and regards,
Al

-----Original Message-----
From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 11:24 AM=
To: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: [ippm] Proposed charter updates fo= r IPPM

Greetings, all,

Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss= a proposed change to the
charter, as a way to resolve the rough cons= ensus to adopt the IOAM work
within IPPM with concerns that have been ra= ised that that work doesn't
really fit on the charter. We arrived at a = minimal suggested set of
edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren'= t so much focused on bringing
IOAM on charter as they are making the char= ter reflect the direction
work in IPPM has been going over the five y= ears since we last updated
the charter.

We propose only to touch three paragraphs, = as below:

---

OLD Paragraph 1:

The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working G= roup develops and maintains
standard metrics that can be applied to the= quality, performance, and
reliability of Internet data delivery servi= ces and applications running
over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, U= DP) over IP. Specifying
network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is ou= t of scope of the IPPM
charter. It also develops and maintains pro= tocols for the measurement of
these metrics. These metrics are designed s= uch that they can be used by
network operators, end users, or independen= t testing groups. Metrics
developed by the IPPM WG are intended to pr= ovide unbiased quantitative
performance measurements and not a value ju= dgement.

NEW Paragraph 1:

The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Worki= ng Group develops and
maintains standard metrics that can be appl= ied to the quality,
performance, and reliability of Internet da= ta delivery services and
applications running over transport layer p= rotocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over
IP. It also develops and maintains methodol= ogies and protocols for the
measurement of these metrics. These metrics= are designed such that they
can be used by network operators, end users= , or independent testing
groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG ar= e intended to provide
unbiased quantitative performance measureme= nts and not a value
judgement.


Two basic edits here:

(1) Rename working group from IP Performanc= e Metrics to IP Performance
Measurement,

This is a very important change. Thanks for raising it. 

and add "methodologies" to the se= t of things we do. In our
opinion, this reflects work that has been h= appening on charter for a
while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all metho= dology work as opposed to
metric work.


I agree. 

Editorial question: where it says: "These metrics are designed such that...= " should that be: "These metrics, protocols, and methodologies are designed such that..."?

(2) Remove the sentence "Specifying ne= twork or lower layer OAM
mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM char= ter". In my personal opinion,
this isn't really necessary to bring the IO= AM work on, since though IOAM
can be carried on lower-layer headers, it d= oesn't really specify an OAM
mechanism as I understand that term to be d= efined in the routing area.
However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn= 't appear to do anything
useful beyond reinforcing an artificial sil= o dividing data-plane and
control-plane measurement, make it difficul= t for us to work together
with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working g= roups on performance
measurement, and cause confusion as to whet= her we can do a thing called
"IOAM" in IPPM.

---

OLD Paragraph 6:

The WG has produced protocols for communica= tion among test equipment to
enable the measurement of the one- and two-= way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP
respectively). These protocols will be adva= nced along the standards
track. The work of the WG will take into ac= count the suitability of
measurements for automation, in order to su= pport large-scale measurement
efforts. This may result in further develop= ments in protocols such as
OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the defini= tions of metrics and methods
of measurement enables accurate, reproducib= le, and equivalent results
across different implementations. To this e= nd, the WG will define and
maintain a registry of metric definitions. = The WG encourages work which
assesses the comparability of measurements = of IPPM metrics with metrics
developed elsewhere.

NEW Paragraph 6:

The WG has produced protocols for communica= tion among test equipment to
enable the measurement of the one- and two-= way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP
respectively). These protocols will be adva= nced along the standards
track. The work of the WG will take into ac= count the suitability of
measurements for automation, in order to su= pport large-scale measurement
efforts. This may result in further develop= ments in protocols such as
OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the defini= tions of metrics and methods
of measurement enables accurate, reproducib= le, and equivalent results
across different implementations. To this e= nd, the WG defines and
maintains a registry of metric definitions.= The WG encourages work which
assesses the comparability of measurements = of IPPM metrics with metrics
developed elsewhere.


This is a purely editorial change: move def= inition and maintenance of
registry to present tense, since we're doin= g it.

---

OLD Paragraph 7:

The WG also encourages work which improves = the availability of
information about the context in which meas= urements were taken.

NEW Paragraph 7:

The WG also encourages work which improves = the availability of
information about the context in which meas= urements were taken, for
example, measurement implementation informa= tion, conditions on the
networks on which measurements are taken, o= r information about the data-
plane topology of the measured network.


This is an arguably editorial change. It ma= kes it clear that work
targeted at IPPM that focuses on measuremen= t on the spatial
characteristics of paths as context for met= rics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but
also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which = attempts to answer the
question "what about traceroute" = applied to the registry).


Good clarification. 

The "for example" speaks to these, but I would add that cont= ext is not limited to this enumeration. 

---

We additionally propose to strike the (out = of date) near term milestones
from the charter text; milestones are separ= ately managed.


Beyond these updates, we propose to leave t= he charter unchanged. We've
got some time to have this discussion on th= e agenda in Prague, but in
the meantime please send your thoughts on t= his proposal to the mailing
list.


Thanks!!!

Carlos. 


Many thanks, best regards,

Brian (for the chairs)

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--_000_1E003B2B4C444E75BCA2C1DB1CF037B8ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jul 10 06:43:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B434613177A; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 06:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWZaMrPlz5l4; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 06:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E6C212F257; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 06:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B911D20B1F; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:43:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:reply-to:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qimpVMQFRI3UV4CaWDOr7T0+hvmnCO lFok2r5nrhULI=; b=oKBvwgtYm6wRJNz01K8FTAU8BUs5JTZlr+J9Y2zHj0T9nF AmTy5BrQBdt9Ld0koTOfclqtm/jwX+WOF6GJqhnA4lpaxecWWsxVqalt1jYHVy/T mJzo8nA+49dwJwaq7kS2+QMOj/Yq521Ggz5X3s9CzXysCJMzB+Z7GfvAKMTVHrev kBRzfMxXmbpSlE0vuToeNCDYAnXIRqcsmS3QgE+8rpFRiG/Do/PgGiqmOH5zi/Ap deXq/aaF9G43x741ncsKURpZKNxP9wUuP39PG/F7fAz3nIXQifS9WZ42aSY7sF7M Km0lR+msjb6R13x9gVsEPBcKr47U0EIgmPXyuUUQ== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: z5Nrnz54+YaAnpkezURxxxPM07rM8zr90cF+lP1FSC4Z 1499694198 Received: from [192.168.1.115] (unknown [97.87.239.43]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 72E0F247D9; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Cerveny Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F69B1099-BDD6-4AFE-9A4F-8AD4E024A039" Reply-To: IPPM Chairs Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:43:17 -0400 Message-Id: <0CDB7C49-8F32-4CEF-8BDF-6C2F5228CD0E@wjcerveny.com> Cc: IPPM Chairs To: IETF IPPM WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] IPPM@IETF99 Agenda posted, presentations requested X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:43:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F69B1099-BDD6-4AFE-9A4F-8AD4E024A039 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear IPPMers and particularly presenters, The agenda for the IPPM session at IETF99 has been posted. For = reference, the logistics for the IPPM WG meeting is: Prague Hilton - Room Athens/Barcelona Wednesday, July 19, 2017 9:30 - 12:00 (noon) CEST (Prague venue local time) 0730-1000 UTC Presenters: Please send your presentation slides to ippm-chairs@ietf.org = =20 Thanks, Bill Cerveny Brian Trammell IPPM working group co-chairs= --Apple-Mail=_F69B1099-BDD6-4AFE-9A4F-8AD4E024A039 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Dear IPPMers and particularly presenters,

The agenda for the IPPM session at = IETF99 has been posted. For reference, the logistics for the IPPM WG = meeting is:

Prague Hilton - Room Athens/Barcelona
Wednesday, July 19, 2017
9:30 - 12:00 = (noon) CEST (Prague venue local time)
0730-1000 = UTC

Presenters: Please send your presentation slides to ippm-chairs@ietf.org 

Thanks,

Bill Cerveny
Brian = Trammell
IPPM working group = co-chairs
= --Apple-Mail=_F69B1099-BDD6-4AFE-9A4F-8AD4E024A039-- From nobody Tue Jul 11 05:04:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15F012EC30 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xD8O-Zx63aVq for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [212.25.24.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AA69129461 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EA5340157; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.12279); Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [213.144.146.206] (account ietf@trammell.ch HELO [192.168.115.25]) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 23407460; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:04:06 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9BA591E8-0750-40BF-89F6-1E3ED37F15A6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:03:59 +0200 Cc: IETF IPPM WG Message-Id: References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> To: Al Morton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:04:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9BA591E8-0750-40BF-89F6-1E3ED37F15A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi Al, Briefly, inline below. > On 09 Jul 2017, at 19:22, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian and Bill, >=20 > Thanks for preparing a new charter proposal and organizing > this message to highlight the changes. I agree with your > proposals. >=20 > I have one further proposal for the last sentence of > paragraph 1. >=20 > OLD (and your NEW): > Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased > quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. >=20 > I propose to delete/replace the last phrase, which I think has been = present > since the very first charter. IIRC, the concern was that contributions > might attempt to establish service acceptance thresholds, or other > numerical performance requirements/objectives using the metrics. > The work of setting numerical objectives proceeded elsewhere > (ITU-T Rec Y.1541), and the Earth continued to rotate. >=20 > If we want to ensure the status quo, we could say: > s/and not a value judgement/but numerical thresholds for the metrics = are out-of-scope/ >=20 > I also suggest this change with MBM in mind, where we have > testing outcomes of Pass/Fail/Inconclusive (PFI). Of course, the user > supplies the target rate, RTT, and/or loss ratio numerical values, > not the working group. >=20 > So we could express an explicit restriction that does not hamper MBM = PFI: >=20 > NEW^2: > Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased > quantitative performance measurements, but numerical thresholds for > the metrics are out-of-scope. >=20 > Or, we could remove the phrase, and refer any contributions on > numerical thresholds to ITU-T SG 12, Question 17, to avoid > overlapping work with another SDO (coordination with this SDO > should also be mentioned somewhere). >=20 > NEW^3: > Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased > quantitative performance measurements. Thanks for this history... this change (NEW^3) seems to make sense to = me, and I'd propose we do it as well. Cheers, Brian >=20 > thanks for considering this proposal, and regards, > Al >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell >> Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 11:24 AM >> To: IETF IPPM WG >> Subject: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM >>=20 >> Greetings, all, >>=20 >> Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the >> charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM = work >> within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work = doesn't >> really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of >> edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on = bringing >> IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction >> work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated >> the charter. >>=20 >> We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> OLD Paragraph 1: >>=20 >> The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains >> standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and >> reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications = running >> over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying >> network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM >> charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement = of >> these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used = by >> network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics >> developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased = quantitative >> performance measurements and not a value judgement. >>=20 >> NEW Paragraph 1: >>=20 >> The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and >> maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, >> performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and >> applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) = over >> IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for = the >> measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that = they >> can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing >> groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide >> unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value >> judgement. >>=20 >>=20 >> Two basic edits here: >>=20 >> (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP = Performance >> Measurement, and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In = our >> opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a >> while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to >> metric work. >>=20 >> (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM >> mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal = opinion, >> this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though = IOAM >> can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an = OAM >> mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing = area. >> However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything >> useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and >> control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together >> with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance >> measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing = called >> "IOAM" in IPPM. >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> OLD Paragraph 6: >>=20 >> The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment = to >> enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP >> respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards >> track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of >> measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale = measurement >> efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as >> OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and = methods >> of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results >> across different implementations. To this end, the WG will define and >> maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work = which >> assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with = metrics >> developed elsewhere. >>=20 >> NEW Paragraph 6: >>=20 >> The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment = to >> enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP >> respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards >> track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of >> measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale = measurement >> efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as >> OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and = methods >> of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results >> across different implementations. To this end, the WG defines and >> maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work = which >> assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with = metrics >> developed elsewhere. >>=20 >>=20 >> This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of >> registry to present tense, since we're doing it. >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> OLD Paragraph 7: >>=20 >> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of >> information about the context in which measurements were taken. >>=20 >> NEW Paragraph 7: >>=20 >> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of >> information about the context in which measurements were taken, for >> example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the >> networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the = data- >> plane topology of the measured network. >>=20 >>=20 >> This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work >> targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial >> characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, = but >> also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the >> question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term = milestones >> from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. >>=20 >>=20 >> Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. = We've >> got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in >> the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the = mailing >> list. >>=20 >>=20 >> Many thanks, best regards, >>=20 >> Brian (for the chairs) >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9BA591E8-0750-40BF-89F6-1E3ED37F15A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZZL6wAAoJEIoSt78L6kajV6MQAJgXZCOjGOgyBEHYz033tJqJ GobPptlCYT7xV9paB0xRzHHn3SlA3XUh0yTrgrlyrs61hNXS4Zn3lMJISxGjB1al TWYUhWQpeY71sKo74EVt8OT53S2XnxHb9hawIJd6O2u05ta7dkMQcVX/fvB+F2PN qGwDeNdftLuU7APeTYSViYhFP25srdZK3T4XydJtJBAnqybDpY9SQFaqFLrypf6d f5qzVzmsiI7PVKSDrQRGN/a0Ia4RWUrMH9OpuGOhWoR2JQnT/Wf2HLrA3hLJSLjp +YKe7piNIrcYOMG8bDyU2PRRjLCzh3k6mfvlwW28pZ7+sh6Tlwhezateut+b6gEB ePXEU9Eju9PG8NrPJAvHaGO+pgkQEfvyMXUsUpI4aSfaGuWAPwv04MPBGfVmpj5k utqO97FywdySp7h/P0eDoBx2YrfHaq4efGSDG+Z72Ozzm+pSggYx6QV0L8VZ+LsK R0GRGI8v61oIpm8jaZdUsZhz+3ZdioCNCKvcKwT1Kom3XGVzyFd5pwkvIDM5U6ru 0r5mYkUb+PxBp/VRJawu6h5+3yflKAe5Ip+OVxFHxSWHt8xOaaAPrhlTJf7l0oPo XTMTxxGN1xpWvR8OO9rkzrOUaXcQU4RQZv/h9bFnVgvho5x+JCmhUiKfn4f/clUq aLk5sbnU9z3SonUP/1dh =Rqjd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9BA591E8-0750-40BF-89F6-1E3ED37F15A6-- From nobody Tue Jul 11 05:17:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C8A131692 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:17:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5rukHMKpV-E for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [212.25.24.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC2DC129461 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CB3340A6F; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:17:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.14857); Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:17:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:17:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [195.226.23.97] (account ietf@trammell.ch HELO [192.168.115.25]) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 23409155; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:17:04 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_722E3C93-89F8-4CC9-9ED1-53E44D168F81"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" In-Reply-To: <1E003B2B-4C44-4E75-BCA2-C1DB1CF037B8@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:17:03 +0200 Cc: Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG Message-Id: <6D55E062-32A3-4625-AEE6-685A2B3578D2@trammell.ch> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF45005B91@njmtexg4.research.att.com> <1E003B2B-4C44-4E75-BCA2-C1DB1CF037B8@cisco.com> To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:17:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_722E3C93-89F8-4CC9-9ED1-53E44D168F81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi Carlos, followups to followups inline; I've noted all your points inline to = which I don't reply directly... > On 10 Jul 2017, at 00:02, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) = wrote: >=20 > Thank you Brian for proactively bringing this discussion on the list = before Prague. >=20 > All the proposed changes below bring the charter (i.e., the contract = between the WG and the IETF) closer to reality and remove potential = ambiguities and sources of misinterpretation. I believe that all these = edits serve the higher purpose of charter hygiene and forward-looking = polishing, and are not narrowly written solely with iOAM in mind. >=20 > As such, I very much support this proposal. >=20 > Related, and likely a question for Benoit, but curious about the = PM-Directorate and whether this is OBE (I've not seen traffic for a = couple years): > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/performance-metrics.html I believe the directorate still exists, and the guidelines in 6390 = remain (though our work on the registry has augmented them), so I think = the charter should continue to mention it. Though, on second read, I I = think we could also strike the " It is possible that new measurement = protocols will be needed to support new metrics; if this is the case, = the working group will be rechartered to develop these protocols" since = this proposal, to some extent, is that recharter. > Editorial question: where it says: "These metrics are designed such = that..." should that be: "These metrics, protocols, and methodologies = are designed such that..."? Yes, though that makes the sentence a little unwieldy. Let's take the = input that this clause should not be limited to metrics only and = wordsmith the paragraph later. >>> OLD Paragraph 7: >>>=20 >>> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of >>> information about the context in which measurements were taken. >>>=20 >>> NEW Paragraph 7: >>>=20 >>> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of >>> information about the context in which measurements were taken, for >>> example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the >>> networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the = data- >>> plane topology of the measured network. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work >>> targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial >>> characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, = but >>> also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the >>> question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). >>>=20 >=20 > Good clarification. >=20 > The "for example" speaks to these, but I would add that context is not = limited to this enumeration. so, "for example (but not limited to)..."? Yep, seems good to me. Cheers, Brian --Apple-Mail=_722E3C93-89F8-4CC9-9ED1-53E44D168F81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZZMG/AAoJEIoSt78L6kajDH8P+QETce5ikxO0EAHfhbKnAOuO FKlyfeLV3S4QbjrpzgAhOAafZTK+V+eILXrpOunioMyUZaqzNXoqlpsXDFK8tG7O Z4yU3GD99NONUz23iwd58MhDGoOdwHcoqaZAFe69rWBH7AFjt/OWv9JTptJu2b+l hYLVqEUQyd/PfU3YwRQ+IzldbLtugOfGBZJq6okq+YqY1jbkZBkG8TmZfTiBy1Os TAY+BNuAKk4JfJLkNZ+rMqwlFxh6o1xyi84GpyWb7y5DXsFjrNUvG7Ul/0NoWopI MCbg6/8yeuGab44jt89xra1g4bQDlyOmq1mJkjN3e9IZA+rec8HVpyPK05SZEV2l h3R2DByuQPJuqMBzUcVCTK7DT7HHi6+Nmgpwwv18ZtTbO7qujrQf0hiW2HBYP6cy P55mp6oqN+UfDT1qQ3vHwtS/VdEzxXiDHCgl84NytW0piHvs4QGw1wf43hRIx0vx QhB71c3fBLY/+TebV0PRh4dvDnn1GFfojOXozxQBfPT9Jhi+Vyj7jTopEB0A3Xe5 NbE6VpvkaxDTEYdALlqYbX46cNfiIIOneN1WyiUhRFHDN0L6apSLErC7t7kCNT5t ei6pedCd5UUCpUI8dWeRgTM9w7HXh31NprkkBDDHRrjgbgUVp+eLb4ym9C1bB5fi MFapWH5VOZcsbNP+RLaX =rFTD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_722E3C93-89F8-4CC9-9ED1-53E44D168F81-- From nobody Tue Jul 11 05:20:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C861129AF9 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 05:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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boundary="_000_1998F7567EF4415087B0EA1166E439C2ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:20:31 -0000 --_000_1998F7567EF4415087B0EA1166E439C2ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQnJpYW4sDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJlc3BvbnNlcyDigJQgQWNrIHRvIGFsbCBvZiB5 b3VyIGNvbW1lbnRzIGJlbG93Lg0KDQrigJQgQ2FybG9zLg0KDQpPbiBKdWwgMTEsIDIwMTcsIGF0 IDg6MTcgQU0sIEJyaWFuIFRyYW1tZWxsIChJRVRGKSA8aWV0ZkB0cmFtbWVsbC5jaDxtYWlsdG86 aWV0ZkB0cmFtbWVsbC5jaD4+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQpoaSBDYXJsb3MsDQoNCmZvbGxvd3VwcyB0byBm b2xsb3d1cHMgaW5saW5lOyBJJ3ZlIG5vdGVkIGFsbCB5b3VyIHBvaW50cyBpbmxpbmUgdG8gd2hp Y2ggSSBkb24ndCByZXBseSBkaXJlY3RseS4uLg0KDQpPbiAxMCBKdWwgMjAxNywgYXQgMDA6MDIs 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149990898074.17723.2677504326691869000.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 18:23:00 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Milestones changed for ippm WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 01:23:01 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit a draft on the IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM) Destination Option as Proposed Standard", resolved as "Done". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ippm/about/ From nobody Sun Jul 16 04:02:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F285C12F3CB for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 04:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6ucLr43io8P for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 04:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [IPv6:2001:8e0:40:325::45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 125FD126B6E for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 04:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C004340E51 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.20235); Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-80c0.meeting.ietf.org (account ietf@trammell.ch [31.133.128.192] verified) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 23860935 for ippm@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:02:03 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B169B635-0A06-4C25-936F-E4D7C31EF668"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:02:01 +0200 Message-Id: <49116F18-CED5-4962-9A13-8DFC42AE90B0@trammell.ch> References: To: IETF IPPM WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 11:02:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B169B635-0A06-4C25-936F-E4D7C31EF668 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, Following up on a discussion at Saturday's Applied Networking Research = Workshop, it also seems to me that IPPM could provide a useful home for = the standardization of measurement result information and data models. = Since one of the main gaps in practice here is metadata, this work would = hang nicely off of Paragraph 7, and further propose to add one more = sentence to this paragraph: OLD Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken. NEW NEW Paragraph 7: The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken, for = example (but not limited to) measurement implementation information, = conditions on the network(s) on which measurements are taken, and/or = information about the data-plane topology of these network(s). It may = foster this work by defining information and data models for storage and = dissemination of measurement data. Cheers, Brian > On 09 Jul 2017, at 17:23, Brian Trammell wrote: >=20 > Greetings, all, >=20 > Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the = charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM work = within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work doesn't = really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of = edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on bringing = IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction = work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated = the charter. >=20 > We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 1: >=20 > The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains = standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and = reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running = over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying = network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM = charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement of = these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by = network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics = developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative = performance measurements and not a value judgement. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 1: >=20 > The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, = performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and = applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over = IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the = measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they = can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing = groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide = unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value = judgement. >=20 >=20 > Two basic edits here: >=20 > (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP Performance = Measurement, and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In our = opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a = while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to = metric work. >=20 > (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM = mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal opinion, = this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though IOAM = can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an OAM = mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing area. = However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything = useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and = control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together = with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance = measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing called = "IOAM" in IPPM. >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 6: >=20 > The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment = to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the = standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the = suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support = large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments = in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of = metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and = equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG = will define and maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG = encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM = metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 6: >=20 > The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment = to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the = standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the = suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support = large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments = in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of = metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and = equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG = defines and maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG = encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM = metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. >=20 >=20 > This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of = registry to present tense, since we're doing it. >=20 > --- >=20 > OLD Paragraph 7: >=20 > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken. >=20 > NEW Paragraph 7: >=20 > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of = information about the context in which measurements were taken, for = example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the = networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the = data-plane topology of the measured network. >=20 >=20 > This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work = targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial = characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but = also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the = question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). >=20 > --- >=20 > We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term = milestones from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. >=20 >=20 > Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. We've = got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in = the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the mailing = list. >=20 >=20 > Many thanks, best regards, >=20 > Brian (for the chairs) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_B169B635-0A06-4C25-936F-E4D7C31EF668 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZa0eqAAoJEIoSt78L6kajDiUP+wT9XVzom1iFtSrOZ7YspAr+ 4GbKdbK22Alh8j0Rr0+P8UoYeiK6NyntwFoJEbfSKUHvETPx3Sd6ntKhpUR80Zzc jyuQwYRJB44Hk2QyjfVckB/iP8cmJqihyjFXZSL0OiCV3J1+g+fj+m25V1EA3yYu 99KEF0/DLsawVSXUSH/BylwIaeLlb1NMtrBBbtmVqNkxTmR0bxJMuMzxoxE7o0sU nQCyq3KwP6h9kURQJhID3+1y4cJ/DB9vHMuoEwfBRmDHxe5nlBLiIJeIbAFHja4v exnKl950cpixQUmGUML0YRn8Zljdc3Ka9cazTsDw9U+DnoMS47M93airLVpP3dHK K3FOPx1qaSwac/xJ35MBORDplWG+2B3yXZh43F9UOIoN7AgZFbNEF20RTOz4goKL wkBMdNLPjI4GLrCThDA3agqRyHJfNaPqr6auMnPpc+m2q8L0PCW9yU/p3mXibeMm fPCJbW/22E/jchr/zf1xiW15Quv2SltfgiwoXGFvjhQqBhzDdD5ODMD1rhRBz/Wj 4t+ZSVKH8uDuzkecL53jidgqXphkLJrNqRORb/e4Dp7iusKoilBHvkqsfYshNtwa dr2DbPczaR18uzVDQ/AWQ2RmC/pGk/K/BxlJITly1loPdsznhIDR6MTZewyduid0 qE9+kx0eX9o3yosL2pnN =eDxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B169B635-0A06-4C25-936F-E4D7C31EF668-- From nobody Sun Jul 16 23:32:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1FEA1315DA for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UoAEWHBnQ1tM for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at (mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at [128.131.67.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F0E913157A for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5283C20C0776; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:32:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mydomain = nt.tuwien.ac.at Received: from mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fo5alhFrD5H6; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:32:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [128.131.67.239] (jason.nt.tuwien.ac.at [128.131.67.239]) by mail.nt.tuwien.ac.at (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FA8420C0764; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:32:18 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: joachim.fabini@tuwien.ac.at To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , IETF IPPM WG References: <49116F18-CED5-4962-9A13-8DFC42AE90B0@trammell.ch> From: Joachim Fabini Message-ID: <24729e86-6e40-ad80-92aa-aff10918acf9@tuwien.ac.at> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:32:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <49116F18-CED5-4962-9A13-8DFC42AE90B0@trammell.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed charter updates for IPPM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 06:32:28 -0000 Hi Brian, ippm, I fully support the charter addition and work that you propose. Main focus of the ippm WG is on defining metrics and methodologies to enable accurate measurements. Measurement results, as well as their interpretation, depend to a large extent on parameters that ippm defines and uses. Some metric and methodology definitions even recommend/mandate the documentation of measurement parameters, but there is no guidance on how to do this. So imo it's straight-forward for ippm to define data models, too, that support the dissemination of data and the formal description of the acquisition process (i.e, context). Detailed knowledge on how exactly a specific dataset was acquired, as well as a recommended data format helps all data users, i.e., people who later on post-process the data. I'd go even further to mandate any dataset that is released to the community/public to be accompanied by a formal (ideally machine-readable?) detailed description. Ippm can support by developing and recommending standard formats/frameworks for disseminating measurement data. Two minor issues wrt wording: 1. One could emphasize the need for metadata even more ("It may foster this work by defining information and data models for storage and dissemination of measurement data _and_context_"). 2. The terms "measurement methodology" and "measurement parameters" are hidden in your wording inside "measurement implementation". I'd mention these two explicitly. thanks, Joachim On 16.07.2017 13:02, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote: > Greetings, all, > > Following up on a discussion at Saturday's Applied Networking Research Workshop, it also seems to me that IPPM could provide a useful home for the standardization of measurement result information and data models. Since one of the main gaps in practice here is metadata, this work would hang nicely off of Paragraph 7, and further propose to add one more sentence to this paragraph: > > > OLD Paragraph 7: > > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken. > > NEW NEW Paragraph 7: > > The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken, for example (but not limited to) measurement implementation information, conditions on the network(s) on which measurements are taken, and/or information about the data-plane topology of these network(s). It may foster this work by defining information and data models for storage and dissemination of measurement data. > > > Cheers, > > Brian > > >> On 09 Jul 2017, at 17:23, Brian Trammell wrote: >> >> Greetings, all, >> >> Bill and I met briefly last week to discuss a proposed change to the charter, as a way to resolve the rough consensus to adopt the IOAM work within IPPM with concerns that have been raised that that work doesn't really fit on the charter. We arrived at a minimal suggested set of edits. Though inspired by IOAM, these aren't so much focused on bringing IOAM on charter as they are making the charter reflect the direction work in IPPM has been going over the five years since we last updated the charter. >> >> We propose only to touch three paragraphs, as below: >> >> --- >> >> OLD Paragraph 1: >> >> The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter. It also develops and maintains protocols for the measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. >> >> NEW Paragraph 1: >> >> The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the measurement of these metrics. These metrics are designed such that they can be used by network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. >> >> >> Two basic edits here: >> >> (1) Rename working group from IP Performance Metrics to IP Performance Measurement, and add "methodologies" to the set of things we do. In our opinion, this reflects work that has been happening on charter for a while: MBM, PDM, and alt-mark are all methodology work as opposed to metric work. >> >> (2) Remove the sentence "Specifying network or lower layer OAM mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter". In my personal opinion, this isn't really necessary to bring the IOAM work on, since though IOAM can be carried on lower-layer headers, it doesn't really specify an OAM mechanism as I understand that term to be defined in the routing area. However, this restriction on the IPPM doesn't appear to do anything useful beyond reinforcing an artificial silo dividing data-plane and control-plane measurement, make it difficult for us to work together with other (e.g. INT or RTG area) working groups on performance measurement, and cause confusion as to whether we can do a thing called "IOAM" in IPPM. >> >> --- >> >> OLD Paragraph 6: >> >> The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG will define and maintain a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. >> >> NEW Paragraph 6: >> >> The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different implementations. To this end, the WG defines and maintains a registry of metric definitions. The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. >> >> >> This is a purely editorial change: move definition and maintenance of registry to present tense, since we're doing it. >> >> --- >> >> OLD Paragraph 7: >> >> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken. >> >> NEW Paragraph 7: >> >> The WG also encourages work which improves the availability of information about the context in which measurements were taken, for example, measurement implementation information, conditions on the networks on which measurements are taken, or information about the data-plane topology of the measured network. >> >> >> This is an arguably editorial change. It makes it clear that work targeted at IPPM that focuses on measurement on the spatial characteristics of paths as context for metrics (e.g. parts of IOAM, but also work like draft-amf-ippm-route, which attempts to answer the question "what about traceroute" applied to the registry). >> >> --- >> >> We additionally propose to strike the (out of date) near term milestones from the charter text; milestones are separately managed. >> >> >> Beyond these updates, we propose to leave the charter unchanged. We've got some time to have this discussion on the agenda in Prague, but in the meantime please send your thoughts on this proposal to the mailing list. >> >> >> Many thanks, best regards, >> >> Brian (for the chairs) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > From nobody Tue Jul 18 14:20:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C13D13167F for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KkU-yyF6X8Hy for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BADBE12F29A for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DKU54502; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:20:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.136) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 22:20:42 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI509-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.103]) by dggemi403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 05:20:39 +0800 From: "Zhenghui (Marvin)" To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposal for revising RFC4445 or make RFC4445bis Thread-Index: AdMACrQrzrwDTvh5RXiS40/LqRgxyQ== Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:20:38 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.69.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Repost to IPPM since i= t may be the right place to discuss metrics.

 

We have two individual= drafts for this:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-zheng-emdi-udp/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-ding-tcp-emdi/

(one for UDP, another = for TCP, there is slight inconsistency in the draft naming patterns though)=      

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2017=C4=EA7=D4=C217=C8=D5 13:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: tsv-area@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Zhenghui (Marvin) <marvin.zhenghui@huawei.com>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Proposal for revising RFC4445 or make RFC4445bis=

 

Hi, All:

We like to get a sense of this idea, more tha= n 10 years ago, at the time of RFC4445 writing,

The popularity of delivery of streaming media= over packet swtiched network has just began,

not all implementations support QoS methods t= o improve media delivery. Many service

delivery systems may compose the network with= QoS support or without QoS support. This add difficulty on characterizing = dynamic behavior of the network.

 

10 years have passed, we see most of widely d= eployed implementions have adopted various different QoS mechanisms

such as diffserv Intserv, Traffic Engineering= , providing QoS guarantee to improve delivery of media streaming,

especially for time senestive or loss senstiv= e application become a must; Therefore we see a lot of value of MDI defined= in RFC4445 since it provide s a handy diagnostic tool for operators and service providers to measure the peformance of the = network carrying streaming media and quickly identify fault in the network.=

 

Today we also see many service providers=  begain to offer on demand streaming media service, many operator depl= oyed CDN in the last mile to provide better SLA, or provide hybrid TV service, in addition more and more real time application not lim= ited to IPTV application, VOIP application have been developed,network moni= toring and network troubleshooting began more and more complicated and cost= y. We hear a lot of operators get hurted and want to have a common tool to help them to measure performance = in this kind of networks and provider better troubleshooting.

 

Another observation is today more and more im= plementations have adopted packet loss repair methods to improve media deli= very.

However MDI defined in RFC4445 doesn't take i= nto acount of various different packet loss repair mechanims, in addition, = RFC4445 is only designed for monitoring MPEG Transport Stream (TS) packets over UDP and fall short to addressing needs in hybrid = senarios or on demand streaming media scenarios.

 

In addition, we see at the time of RFC4445 pu= blication, IESG doesn't recommend this standard, mostly becos RFC4445 doesn= 't define complete Metric and clarify the relationship with existing IETF work such as RFC3611 and RFC3933, I am wondering if it = is a good idea to revise RFC4445 to address IESG concern today and in addit= ion fill new needs in today's service deployment.

Comments and suggestions?

 

-Qin

--_000_F8F4995E43962F4996B280E9678CED0001F53042dggemi509mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 19 00:56:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9689B131C14 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AX3Jn9haYC1 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [IPv6:2001:8e0:40:325::45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87915131C08 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEA5340FE8 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.21734); Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-80c0.meeting.ietf.org (account ietf@trammell.ch [31.133.128.192] verified) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 24134269 for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:25 +0200 From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_65FF560F-8B43-4388-A1EF-BDBE7B0BD310"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:26 +0200 Message-Id: To: IETF IPPM WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] WGLC on draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 07:56:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_65FF560F-8B43-4388-A1EF-BDBE7B0BD310 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, IPPM, As just announced in the room in Prague, this message begins a Working = Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-03, to run until EOB CEST = (UTC +2) Wednesday 9 August 2017. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org = indicating whether you believe this document is ready for publication, = and if not, why not. We're also still looking for a volunteer to shepherd = draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang through the publication process. Ideally, = this would be a non-author who has reviewed the document. The document = shepherd role is described in = [RFC4858](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4858) as amended by an [IESG = statement](https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/document-shepherds.html). Many thanks, best regards, Brian (as IPPM co-chair) --Apple-Mail=_65FF560F-8B43-4388-A1EF-BDBE7B0BD310 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZbxCqAAoJEIoSt78L6kajsfgQAL9iPV35dFvRuld3BlsElucK 4epiJXNtMsnzQrbgUDVxDhIwudMSsGhPkyc52aXAULAIGBgrNOb1INr7RLR7zCuk ozGfKylj+Nq0ACFLerYq+pJFSQnV6u4YLkKGsw2Mh4HTt+1AH3VB5y3OkZfXtxwr vvkM6qs0CDzpPychspA5DTyXJaAOFtRDtquRHBOoDq8aM1P+rqTF1pmwuq7EMJtz 0GL1mTGvOXfynvZ1POfHJ6C4HZ6fD1dZkVqM4sJU7G6M/LJEOPUIoC2zczP1A4cK /XujW6BNNOAqnbgb5NZikulNCk++PTtdYpCcFJ5TuwEoUSnnNGkaKbMx3aT/Yi+E +FYDeZ/KPc+qfBO1RwI28J9h4eZpnt3GDhIX76v7JicfdV3INRXMnzsdNnh1e8t7 +wn9vqRhh7t7fK2BOdM2pdkQYC/swlNT4A4yBFlsPBWz4Tn6pceIpWb1Pj8cRwHN /z/oPaBqaz4wpEhm3wagD1ta6XxvwZPx1vge9e1AURr6njaSFEaSwzqKzdCkJhPR wuNke+uXupHYdGmJLve0+EHM9On+CHWrLdxW8L+GG6rxyTn7o1TE4nT0Ay9TR+lX 0qcbzjdak6EnUSvuNrwDn8cnDUua9Qe/gJkNE4cbdHzjmpKIQqqwlDHxh4dV4/As AaP8aElevgV7WLIx+q9D =ypoG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_65FF560F-8B43-4388-A1EF-BDBE7B0BD310-- From nobody Wed Jul 19 02:56:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCBB126C0F for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 02:56:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VnbCFB452tGa for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 02:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [212.25.24.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A46EC131C77 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 02:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27186341016 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.30206); Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-80c0.meeting.ietf.org (account ietf@trammell.ch [31.133.128.192] verified) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 24150320 for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:56:06 +0200 From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9CB9CF68-5CC8-4489-9567-BBF58A5017DD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:56:04 +0200 Message-Id: <57A415B1-1F22-45C1-BDDA-5521F9CCDC9D@trammell.ch> To: IETF IPPM WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Adoption of a new milestone and document therefor on TWAMP-Test X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:56:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9CB9CF68-5CC8-4489-9567-BBF58A5017DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, At the IETF 99 meeting in Prague we discussed the adoption of a = milestone on the IPPM charter: Nov 2017 Submit a document on usage of O/TWAMP-Test with external = control, assigning a UDP port to it. and the adoption of two documents to be merged into a single document to = meet it: draft-morton-ippm-port-twamp-test-00, draft-mirsky-ippm-twamp-refl-registered-port-03 appointing Greg Mirsky and Al Morton as editors. There was clear consensus in the room for this adoption (though the = phrasing of the milestone was not discussed). If you do not support the = adoption of this milestone and these documents to meet it, or have = suggestions on phrasing of the milestone, please discuss on the = ippm@ietf.org mailing list by Friday 29 July 2017. During the discussion, I also suggested the name Simple Two-Way Active = Measurement Protocol (STAMP) for TWAMP-test in isolation, though no call = for consensus was made on this naming suggestion. Many thanks, best regards, Brian (as co-chair) --Apple-Mail=_9CB9CF68-5CC8-4489-9567-BBF58A5017DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZbyy0AAoJEIoSt78L6kajn4MP/0rswXUNQJzhhFd+p8JRKm97 duPTem9xWxQ8LhJ71Lnb5NyMnHK4Qb4hYvoEBV1IS6rHuA+L/0PR1d2tyFWhqmxh RYAgodCBHFkX7ZoTjKwmBbcAa2BGSb+JSWN95lfXKD8mC5XdTPp60mnXpMXpzgHT uBUIvLekbnXOZYNcdl880QTqSqO3Mx+pDKk4DZt5aqw8UIMX587Jh796F+DKDGyP dtyWxhOO2LL5sVJJMM68G83WjH1QFTvtOX3Uw5f8iYXpM0A/kCBArY5dH2oneWS8 qZpxM/3E0wl4CGiC5QpmhCivZmsoHW3u3m0NJ1HKGJrQEi234VbDsPFLFOAhvKDT 0ucnEruoXMdpbLUd0VO+DN6K3PL5kEUva227dSfTN6HXX1CW9FM9v2IJlhDl1h53 5pRC8GvqB8bx1KHrecrgpJq+sD3RwdSU0PuAYPxFX/yQgITrK25IugPnKOpw/XHq F/ein+nRCfHifvAgCPVuZafKScD0ObMnXRj1RWJdEnrOCdraGy9Na0CILdP1eSmY jtGI0oT9PUeD7IEZwJnu/91rXbMgg0clKgQtRLt26WfmMOJphAsW6kWo3ig63GRN 6IaD5YVT7mYNeEJLakprYTvwqSqHOxf2hfGvaQYrA3U+6bMLaeyVJR50k+A6TGX/ dYWB7w16jL2xBTsUPdv4 =QdkO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9CB9CF68-5CC8-4489-9567-BBF58A5017DD-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 02:46:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA98131A81 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:46:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBf_Qq8Ubiov for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E647013157A for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DKY02221; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:46:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:46:32 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:46:27 -0700 From: Haoyu song To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: discussion on ioam data type extension Thread-Index: AdMBO+k5WY+RG9yvTkOKwngg1eNn1g== Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:46:26 +0000 Message-ID: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.79.79] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2DSJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0205.59707BF9.00B8, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ae49302de4437ac2f76e82900384e678 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:46:37 -0000 --_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2DSJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear WG members and those who authored or are interested in the IOAM work, Since IOAM has been adopted, we'd like to have some deep discussion on some= related issues. Let's first start from the following one. We'd like to hear your opinion. We especially want to learn from people who= are familiar with data plane technologies, chip design, and applications. Do you think we need to consider to support more standard data types? Current scheme support 16 types in total and 14 have been defined. Do you t= hink this is enough in conceivable future? The potential new data types that I can think of include identify for flows= passing packet transforming middle boxes, data for optical/mobile/wireless= network information. Do you think these use cases make sense or not? Do you have other use cases= ? If we think the data type needs to be extended, then what's the best scheme= ? TLV is an obvious option, but it has two drawbacks (1) not comply with the = current bitmap scheme; (2) not perform well on systems supporting parallel = processing; (3) code efficiency is not as good as bitmap (e.g., 1 type + le= ngth would consume at least two bytes while a two-byte bitmap can indicate = 16 new types) Do you have any argument to support either way (TLV or bitmap) for data typ= e extension? I think we should address these issues earlier than later. Your feedbacks a= re highly appreciated. Thank you very much! Please refer the following doc for more information. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm-ioam-scalability/ Best, Haoyu --_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2DSJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear WG members and those who authored or are intere= sted in the IOAM work,

 

Since IOAM has been adopted, we’d like to have= some deep discussion on some related issues. Let’s first start from = the following one.

We’d like to hear your opinion. We especially = want to learn from people who are familiar with data plane technologies, ch= ip design, and applications.

 

Do you think we need to consider to support more sta= ndard data types?

Current scheme support 16 types in total and 14 have= been defined. Do you think this is enough in conceivable future?

 

The potential new data types that I can think of inc= lude identify for flows passing packet transforming middle boxes, data for = optical/mobile/wireless network information.

Do you think these use cases make sense or not? Do y= ou have other use cases?

 

If we think the data type needs to be extended, then= what’s the best scheme?

TLV is an obvious option, but it has two drawbacks (= 1) not comply with the current bitmap scheme; (2) not perform well on syste= ms supporting parallel processing; (3) code efficiency is not as good as bi= tmap (e.g., 1 type + length would consume at least two bytes while a two-byte bitmap can indicate 16 new typ= es)

Do you have any argument to support either way (TLV = or bitmap) for data type extension?

 

I think we should address these issues earlier than = later. Your feedbacks are highly appreciated. Thank you very much!

 

Please refer the following doc for more information.=

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm= -ioam-scalability/

 

Best,

Haoyu

--_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2DSJCEML703CHMchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 04:48:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1780C131C16 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:48:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDGx_f3lc0f3 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33753131C15 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v6KBm0Dr003981; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:48:00 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-8d56.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.141.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v6KBlwIT003938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:47:59 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Haoyu song'" , References: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:47:56 +0100 Message-ID: <0bc601d3014e$085f5a60$191e0f20$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQI6NQFL6008slim1jFRbmt2ov1KAqGOMNzw Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.1.0.1062-23206.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--6.670-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--6.670-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pBwXUM+nCws4HKI/yaqRm1Pjo7D4SFg4DRi0jfY6gL2DX2Eb+x4gXq+X /ZrTk4d0YzxCiiatIjyYm8hPDCbfXkMtBEG1S/Amb8JTZf0kEzshmbYg1ZcOnlvvN5s+yN4xA5H e1kDS+OLi8zVgXoAltlwtzewu2M63tuZmiwj/lnLdB/CxWTRRu25FeHtsUoHuEb7RTCUSZ6186d WdfAD7aVYUuRDsAapvAus+4mMiaiEchXTZ3Wukbw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:48:10 -0000 Hello Haoyu, > Since IOAM has been adopted, we'd like to have some deep > discussion on some related issues. I applaud your desire for deep discussion, and thank you for bring them to the list. But I think we should defer to the chairs to make declarations of adoption. And I believe that the poll is open until "EOB CEST (UTC +2) Tuesday 20 June 2017." That is, it is still running. Thanks, Adrian From nobody Thu Jul 20 04:55:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8EB131C14 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EerDP7pi0uid for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BCC4131C28 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v6KBtQ4B002731; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:55:26 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-8d56.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.141.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v6KBtPVn002719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:55:26 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Haoyu song'" , References: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <0bc601d3014e$085f5a60$191e0f20$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <0bc601d3014e$085f5a60$191e0f20$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:55:23 +0100 Message-ID: <0c0501d3014f$1296c030$37c44090$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQI6NQFL6008slim1jFRbmt2ov1KAgEOdZDJoYXAPNA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.1.0.1062-23206.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--23.093-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--23.093-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: HXSqh3WYKfswJ6xbTjBa5jNdJzhXekT2ZbvACQZDzTA5/NzMqIxhghk5 KK4/zwVMTWLw2jvbfpx1cgRJLEBdHIEctxx18+nGmlaAItiONP2Hxi2fvkKUM0vg//VC4JxMnJi VgxtkLbA/AnYCIoqokZibyE8MJt9eQy0EQbVL8CZvwlNl/SQTOyGZtiDVlw6eW+83mz7I3jF/TF Ft56DIJo9Zm8Ov7SprPDF4aOlLYwdKl5uDD6k69p4CIKY/Hg3AtOt1ofVlaoKm8jxRk5/juCm3J iZU/IeW5MIx11wv+COQZS2ujCtcuA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:55:53 -0000 Oh, I'm an idiot! This month is July. More coffee please. Many apologies Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: 20 July 2017 12:48 > To: 'Haoyu song'; ippm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension > > Hello Haoyu, > > > Since IOAM has been adopted, we'd like to have some deep > > discussion on some related issues. > > I applaud your desire for deep discussion, and thank you for bring them to the > list. > > But I think we should defer to the chairs to make declarations of adoption. And > I believe that the poll is open until "EOB CEST (UTC +2) Tuesday 20 June 2017." > That is, it is still running. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Tue Jul 25 07:47:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FCD131CEA for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptiSvSSGkC96 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [IPv6:2001:8e0:40:325::45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B96E4131CEE for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BD6340F7A for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.12046); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:47:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [94.247.222.80] (account ietf@trammell.ch HELO [10.11.33.5]) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 24691856 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:47:04 +0200 From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2C4A68D4-426F-4261-A366-0B1871185DFF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:47:03 +0200 Message-Id: <6995DF9D-CD73-4DAB-BE04-94096A5E00F6@trammell.ch> To: IETF IPPM WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] New IPPM charter suggestion X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:47:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2C4A68D4-426F-4261-A366-0B1871185DFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, Following our meeting in Prague (minutes forthcoming), here's where I = think we are with the suggested new charter. Track changes view in = Google Docs at: = https://docs.google.com/document/d/15Q5tIcv2b6oQ9tL_dS90N_ApREZZpSJJxmk-Jn= wx3z8/edit?usp=3Dsharing The new charter text, in full, appears below. Comments? Thanks, cheers, Brian (as chair) The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, = performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and = applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over = IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the = measurement of these metrics. These metrics, protocols, and = methodologies are designed such that they can be used by network = operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed = by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance = measurements. The IPPM WG works to foster commonality and comparability of metrics and = measurements across IETF protocols at different layers. Its work is = limited to metrics and methodologies which are applicable over = transport-layer protocols over IP, and does not specify encapsulations = required for measurements over non-IP layers. The IPPM WG has produced documents that define specific metrics and = procedures for accurately measuring and documenting these metrics. The = working group will continue advancing the most useful of these metrics = along the standards track, using the guidelines stated in RFC 6576. To = the extent possible, these metrics will be used as the basis for future = work on metrics in the WG. The WG will seek to develop new metrics and models to more accurately = characterize the network paths under test and/or the performance of = transport and application layer protocols on these paths. The WG will = balance the need for new metrics with the desire to minimize the = introduction of new metrics, and will require that new metric = definitions state how the definition improves on an existing metric = definition, or assesses a property of network performance not previously = covered by a defined metric. Metric definitions will follow the template = given in RFC 6390. Additional methods will be defined for the composition and calibration = of IPPM-defined metrics, as well as active, passive and hybrid = measurement methods for these metrics. In addition, the WG encourages = work which describes the applicability of metrics and measurement = methods, especially to improve understanding of the tradeoffs involved = among active, passive, and hybrid methods. The WG may update its core framework RFC 2330 as necessary to = accommodate these activities. The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment to = enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and TWAMP = respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the standards = track. The work of the WG will take into account the suitability of = measurements for automation, in order to support large-scale measurement = efforts. This may result in further developments in protocols such as = OWAMP and TWAMP. Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement = enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different = implementations. To this end, the WG defines and maintains a registry of = metric definitions. The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements = of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. The WG also encourages = work which improves the availability of information about the context in = which measurements were taken, for example (but not limited to) = measurement implementation information, estimates of confidence in these = measurements, conditions on the network(s) on which measurements are = taken, and/or information about the data-plane topology of these = network(s). In the interest of measurement comparability, the WG may define data = formats and information models for the storage and exchange of the = results of measurements defined within IPPM. The IPPM WG seeks cooperation with other appropriate standards bodies = and forums to promote consistent approaches and metrics. Within the IETF = process, IPPM metric definitions and measurement protocols will be = subject to as rigorous a scrutiny for usefulness, clarity, and accuracy = as other protocol standards. The IPPM WG will interact with other areas = of IETF activity whose scope intersects with the requirement of these = specific metrics. The WG will, on request, provide input to other IETF = working groups on the use and implementation of these metrics. --Apple-Mail=_2C4A68D4-426F-4261-A366-0B1871185DFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZd1nnAAoJEIoSt78L6kajPgYP/2Q7eKCOwhiasI5INYqsMjVN 1pmZixQcQLB5/iZBXGN0sX1vlppf2PohOUDaZuMeiCMoPOPCg3XfE6YQL7h5PjPE RyjdI5NdHOWQfzXGdKXY3Uxb7jm5ydOuq1s1T/3KLxR53REqK/VtEcPsjHFmxmZF fU7C/WXtZeER/m44YLBh+bF8O/Kvvmy509zBg5Fm3vQ1IeHOE9mgHz71qfmn/+Q4 JjJs2ZS0jCCRq7ePkbZvGGNVnIWv9xjeZCjBqAoIKHUE0Ot9qbxqIUq7NqveDzu0 R8Gsmhoh7+C6anjmTi7JTFJSN+hPNYtfebvsjEccpK5EVNQz7pP7iBdxwFpjkTGY VRMF7KvCUwHLCrq/auolpZl7sQQK+MPDHITY+X44aSouUsItlUxTcRStmddk+6f2 992KE5Y9NI6xaPbjJa3q2iNqDgp6ZdNr6HNt3S6xAn7r5D6SARYuFQW/phU2LsNy UoaL5taQEI5LgSPRdguFdaVZIpGJPDTEOU9M1/5/5XjzU/XEyDKXXZ8U19xN0tjR oTwZs0gGsIhP8ql3ANXd8NWY8QvYbzLEfrSkXLiu1wQxN2j4ZRPM4KDB41Yq0xZw TVu0/H32nEqIQj7pRhd8v08WrNRhHHL3qJzGZKccGgIPdu2upmPsuCNh5i+Gwc8v bqopewWwvAnRyegqRObl =n21+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2C4A68D4-426F-4261-A366-0B1871185DFF-- From nobody Tue Jul 25 09:18:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766E126B6E; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:18:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150099952424.26280.5262277420450519683@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:18:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:18:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics WG of the IETF. Title : Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring Authors : Giuseppe Fioccola Alessandro Capello Mauro Cociglio Luca Castaldelli Mach(Guoyi) Chen Lianshu Zheng Greg Mirsky Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2017-07-25 Abstract: This document describes a method to perform packet loss, delay and jitter measurements on live traffic. This method is based on Alternate Marking (Coloring) technique. A report on the operational experiment done at Telecom Italia is explained in order to give an example and show the method applicability. This technique can be applied in various situations as detailed in this document and could be considered passive or hybrid depending on the application. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 25 10:09:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E059D131E0D; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ej6FbSUR_NLa; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx08.telecomitalia.it (mx08.telecomitalia.it [156.54.233.144]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C218131E0C; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0abc652c-857ff70000009aaa-65-59777b4f42a3 Received: from TELMBXC02BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.112.45.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx08.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id A0.48.39594.F4B77795; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 19:09:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: "ippm@ietf.org" CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark@ietf.org" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) (cpignata@cisco.com)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt Thread-Index: AQHTBWHFUVkN4unRDEaVcPXDvVZ6R6JkxQOA Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:09:35 +0000 Message-ID: <52eb7d2c27904a1597bd48fc864d3d3f@TELMBXC02BA020.telecomitalia.local> References: <150099952424.26280.5262277420450519683@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150099952424.26280.5262277420450519683@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.247] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCVaArpetfXR5psG+2hcWndztYLNrWTma0 WL2jm82i58E7ZgcWjym/N7J6LFnykymAKaqB0SYxLy+/JLEkVSEltTjZVsklszg5JzEzN7VI ISQ1JzU5P1dJITPFVslYSaEgJzE5NTc1r8RWKbGgIDUvRcmOSwED2ACVZeYppOYl56dk5qXb KnkG++taWJha6hoq2QWWphaX5CvkphYXJ6anZ+YrpCasF8xovbKBvaBVuOLN3a9MDYyL+boY OTkkBEwkbsyYy9zFyMUhJDCVSWLz3UdsIAk2ARuJg69OgNkiAsoSLd/+MIIUMQscZ5S42joX KMHBISxgJzF7fSBEjYPE9+9bmCFsI4lVU86ygtgsAqoSJ2fMAJvDKxAocWTyMXYQW0jAWWL3 s+9gNqeAi0TP3HNgNqOArMSE3YsYQWxmAXGJF9NPsEMcKiCxZM95ZghbVOLl43+sELaBxNal +1ggbEWJ1c3zmSBsGYmFRyazQszRk7gxdQobhK0tsWzha2aIewQlTs58wjKBUWwWknWzkLTM QtIyC0nLAkaWVYyiuRUGFnolkPjLLEnMyUzUyyzZxAhKIXtSdXYwttx0PsQowMGoxMP7N6s8 Uog1say4MvcQowQHs5IIb1kFUIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjDzDEJjJLiSbnA9NbXkm8oYmF paGxhYWRoYWZKQ5hJXHebV/LIoUE0oEJLDs1tSC1CGYcEwenVANjads5ViEd/s07f1d8PbnO y9vAMcUsbfdC1iuSFg/1vmQm+/E9+tH3xkNEUnXaF2n2OQdCZ1inP951+lGChGKc8O6N8X42 RTyiEvc6cjw4alRq6qRXZJXMrfBboVcSYMDy5EyrmRGPEnfiKgl5q6N1pQqdcd8WbL8StWOx dfSceZnntj6QEVFiKc5INNRiLipOBABgHUTzTgMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:09:40 -0000 Hi All, This new version of draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark addresses a few nits (especiall= y missing references) noticed by the shepherd Carlos. Best regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di internet-drafts@ietf.or= g Inviato: marted=EC 25 luglio 2017 18:19 A: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ippm@ietf.org Oggetto: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directori= es. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics WG of the IETF. Title : Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid pe= rformance monitoring Authors : Giuseppe Fioccola Alessandro Capello Mauro Cociglio Luca Castaldelli Mach(Guoyi) Chen Lianshu Zheng Greg Mirsky Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2017-07-25 Abstract: This document describes a method to perform packet loss, delay and jitter measurements on live traffic. This method is based on Alternate Marking (Coloring) technique. A report on the operational experiment done at Telecom Italia is explained in order to give an example and show the method applicability. This technique can be applied in various situations as detailed in this document and could be considered passive or hybrid depending on the application. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission= until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. From nobody Tue Jul 25 14:06:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C90131F2A; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:06:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks To: Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150101679673.26268.16147768864334508872@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:06:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:06:37 -0000 Reviewer: Robert Sparks Review result: Ready with Nits I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-ippm-model-based-metrics-11 Reviewer: Robert Sparks Review Date: 2017-07-25 IETF LC End Date: 2017-03-14 IESG Telechat date: 2017-08-03 Summary: Ready with nits Thanks for addressing the comments in my review of -10. In the revision (as a side-effect of removing the dependency on 2119, I suspect) you removed the classification of normative vs informative references. I think you mean that all of these references are Informative. (The document would have a References section, with one "Informative References" subsection). From nobody Thu Jul 27 08:16:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84529131CB5 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MXoJ0GSY_0xW for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from capri.iway.ch (capri.iway.ch [IPv6:2001:8e0:40:325::45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACC85127869 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B24340E78 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:15:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/18338.5228); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:15:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:15:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dyn-160-39-248-169.dyn.columbia.edu (account ietf@trammell.ch [160.39.248.169] verified) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPSA id 24902004 for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:15:57 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_51E7C6C8-DA81-43D0-803F-307EC99129F5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" In-Reply-To: <6995DF9D-CD73-4DAB-BE04-94096A5E00F6@trammell.ch> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 11:15:55 -0400 Message-Id: <75B99782-03D1-4D74-9C43-C40A5C3D3FC2@trammell.ch> References: <6995DF9D-CD73-4DAB-BE04-94096A5E00F6@trammell.ch> To: IETF IPPM WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New IPPM charter suggestion X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:16:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_51E7C6C8-DA81-43D0-803F-307EC99129F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Several people have noted that viewers of the Google Doc can't see the = diffs. Here's a diff -U 3 of the two charters: --- charter-05.txt 2017-07-27 11:12:52.000000000 -0400 +++ charter-06-00.txt 2017-07-27 11:13:07.000000000 -0400 @@ -1,12 +1,19 @@ -The IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Working Group develops and maintains = standard -metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and = reliability of -Internet data delivery services and applications running over transport = layer -protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. Specifying network or lower layer = OAM -mechanisms is out of scope of the IPPM charter. It also develops and = maintains -protocols for the measurement of these metrics. These metrics are = designed such -that they can be used by network operators, end users, or independent = testing -groups. Metrics developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide = unbiased -quantitative performance measurements and not a value judgement. + +The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains +standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, performance, and +reliability of Internet data delivery services and applications running = over +transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over IP. It also develops and +maintains methodologies and protocols for the measurement of these = metrics. +These metrics, protocols, and methodologies are designed such that they = can be +used by network operators, end users, or independent testing groups. = Metrics +developed by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative +performance measurements. + +The IPPM WG works to foster commonality and comparability of metrics = and +measurements across IETF protocols at different layers. Its work is = limited to +metrics and methodologies which are applicable over transport-layer = protocols +over IP, and does not specify encapsulations required for measurements = over +non-IP layers. The IPPM WG has produced documents that define specific metrics and = procedures for accurately measuring and documenting these metrics. The working = group will @@ -21,9 +28,7 @@ will require that new metric definitions state how the definition = improves on an existing metric definition, or assesses a property of network = performance not previously covered by a defined metric. Metric definitions will follow = the -template given in RFC 6390. It is possible that new measurement = protocols will -be needed to support new metrics; if this is the case, the working = group will be -rechartered to develop these protocols. +template given in RFC 6390. Additional methods will be defined for the composition and calibration = of IPPM-defined metrics, as well as active, passive and hybrid measurement = methods @@ -44,11 +48,19 @@ Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement = enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different = implementations. -To this end, the WG will define and maintain a registry of metric = definitions. +To this end, the WG defines and maintains a registry of metric = definitions. + The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of measurements = of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. The WG also encourages work = which improves the availability of information about the context in which = measurements -were taken. +were taken, for example (but not limited to) measurement implementation +information, estimates of confidence in these measurements, conditions = on the +network(s) on which measurements are taken, and/or information about = the +data-plane topology of these network(s). + +In the interest of measurement comparability, the WG may define data = formats and +information models for the storage and exchange of the results of = measurements +defined within IPPM. The IPPM WG seeks cooperation with other appropriate standards bodies = and forums to promote consistent approaches and metrics. Within the IETF process, = IPPM @@ -58,22 +70,3 @@ with the requirement of these specific metrics. The WG will, on = request, provide input to other IETF working groups on the use and implementation of = these metrics. - -Specific near-term milestones include: - -1. Advancement of protocols for one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP -respectively) along the standards track. - -2. Update of the IPPM framework document (RFC 2330) to reflect = experience with -the framework, and to cover planned future metric development. - -3. Definition of a registry of metric definitions to improve the = equivalency of -metric results across multiple implementations. - -4. Publication of a rate measurement problem statement. - -5. Publication of documents supporting the use of IPSec to protect = OWAMP / -TWAMP. - -6. Publication of documents related to model-based TCP bulk transfer = capacity Cheers, Brian > On 25 Jul 2017, at 10:47, Brian Trammell (IETF) = wrote: >=20 > Greetings, all, >=20 > Following our meeting in Prague (minutes forthcoming), here's where I = think we are with the suggested new charter. Track changes view in = Google Docs at: = https://docs.google.com/document/d/15Q5tIcv2b6oQ9tL_dS90N_ApREZZpSJJxmk-Jn= wx3z8/edit?usp=3Dsharing >=20 > The new charter text, in full, appears below. >=20 > Comments? >=20 > Thanks, cheers, >=20 > Brian (as chair) >=20 >=20 > The IP Performance Measurement (IPPM) Working Group develops and = maintains standard metrics that can be applied to the quality, = performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services and = applications running over transport layer protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) over = IP. It also develops and maintains methodologies and protocols for the = measurement of these metrics. These metrics, protocols, and = methodologies are designed such that they can be used by network = operators, end users, or independent testing groups. Metrics developed = by the IPPM WG are intended to provide unbiased quantitative performance = measurements. >=20 > The IPPM WG works to foster commonality and comparability of metrics = and measurements across IETF protocols at different layers. Its work is = limited to metrics and methodologies which are applicable over = transport-layer protocols over IP, and does not specify encapsulations = required for measurements over non-IP layers. >=20 > The IPPM WG has produced documents that define specific metrics and = procedures for accurately measuring and documenting these metrics. The = working group will continue advancing the most useful of these metrics = along the standards track, using the guidelines stated in RFC 6576. To = the extent possible, these metrics will be used as the basis for future = work on metrics in the WG. >=20 > The WG will seek to develop new metrics and models to more accurately = characterize the network paths under test and/or the performance of = transport and application layer protocols on these paths. The WG will = balance the need for new metrics with the desire to minimize the = introduction of new metrics, and will require that new metric = definitions state how the definition improves on an existing metric = definition, or assesses a property of network performance not previously = covered by a defined metric. Metric definitions will follow the template = given in RFC 6390. >=20 > Additional methods will be defined for the composition and calibration = of IPPM-defined metrics, as well as active, passive and hybrid = measurement methods for these metrics. In addition, the WG encourages = work which describes the applicability of metrics and measurement = methods, especially to improve understanding of the tradeoffs involved = among active, passive, and hybrid methods. >=20 > The WG may update its core framework RFC 2330 as necessary to = accommodate these activities. >=20 > The WG has produced protocols for communication among test equipment = to enable the measurement of the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and = TWAMP respectively). These protocols will be advanced along the = standards track. The work of the WG will take into account the = suitability of measurements for automation, in order to support = large-scale measurement efforts. This may result in further developments = in protocols such as OWAMP and TWAMP. >=20 > Agreement about the definitions of metrics and methods of measurement = enables accurate, reproducible, and equivalent results across different = implementations. To this end, the WG defines and maintains a registry of = metric definitions. >=20 > The WG encourages work which assesses the comparability of = measurements of IPPM metrics with metrics developed elsewhere. The WG = also encourages work which improves the availability of information = about the context in which measurements were taken, for example (but not = limited to) measurement implementation information, estimates of = confidence in these measurements, conditions on the network(s) on which = measurements are taken, and/or information about the data-plane topology = of these network(s). >=20 > In the interest of measurement comparability, the WG may define data = formats and information models for the storage and exchange of the = results of measurements defined within IPPM. >=20 > The IPPM WG seeks cooperation with other appropriate standards bodies = and forums to promote consistent approaches and metrics. Within the IETF = process, IPPM metric definitions and measurement protocols will be = subject to as rigorous a scrutiny for usefulness, clarity, and accuracy = as other protocol standards. The IPPM WG will interact with other areas = of IETF activity whose scope intersects with the requirement of these = specific metrics. The WG will, on request, provide input to other IETF = working groups on the use and implementation of these metrics. >=20 --Apple-Mail=_51E7C6C8-DA81-43D0-803F-307EC99129F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZegOsAAoJEIoSt78L6kajaW0P/j+qn4984rD1aOhAEkSPw7lV rGeCF7zKei1Iwce0XZ6OwGTaC/GrUC/oxqbHgv+IYAANdOZIzTDD+NHCqBzJXsjD ZHpeyL9q0D3RqqlA8GtvQnG8jQzCK6ifqO5qtHpZ+U8ld4Nmnd2yqL5qz/0TTWQd 77u5eYjCuI8A42hnvfw7f8M1TurgKgo7OTR2GILMSyHChW7DBs6pb7NwJb5liKIl lLkrSaMCXZM9/x0/D5DPL5GyHCj9iRDC+Ma98K8cp04SAA1ZWnjqoNTB0/FC3ruP ChJdrvOIYCe0uTNECynkEH79lOpjmC4kSBoL1UBioa/+PJvaKWY8GdTR738pq5Pn B0LQIbLNmrbb6fmAqJJAZFv5MNE5CAT0X9HIx9KYCWlOUGBFIRUaQP8qxDgq5eC0 iiEi9Fen4ggNokUM/PLN6glpEloHBFSGxZsyR84MyJm6r2wTm5Bk7HNs2xfUbxU/ ugoolCjTbP1F8tlGGCUZtQUGdBEK4SDAZfrNlNHygbIbOvJ5Knzk4tr3st2mPIEw 6YXIsw7GRWnnvev7unOvG424ESFRFNwMrfV2mt6Ala6I5V495+DvtGn4DmPiB+pJ u9EHixB14feXAnu5a9erIoa9BH+fWBwHkkRgcqIsS5O9U5Zqn4hyCTKTdtTPmzk8 kyYUWCZx95dZU7PPXe8I =8g1X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_51E7C6C8-DA81-43D0-803F-307EC99129F5-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 09:25:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26CA131FEC for ; 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d="htm'217?html'217,217?scan'217,217,208,217";a="264966996" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2017 16:25:23 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (xch-rtp-020.cisco.com [64.101.220.160]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6RGPM5d009175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 16:25:23 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:25:22 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:25:22 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] New IPPM charter suggestion Thread-Index: AQHTBVToifPA4pJPmkKQdrTV96ykd6JoDuCAgAATbYA= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 16:25:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1CDD2D85-ACDA-4A27-81CB-3C1EC295C067@cisco.com> References: <6995DF9D-CD73-4DAB-BE04-94096A5E00F6@trammell.ch> <75B99782-03D1-4D74-9C43-C40A5C3D3FC2@trammell.ch> In-Reply-To: <75B99782-03D1-4D74-9C43-C40A5C3D3FC2@trammell.ch> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.133] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_007_1CDD2D85ACDA4A2781CB3C1EC295C067ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New IPPM charter suggestion X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 16:25:28 -0000 --_007_1CDD2D85ACDA4A2781CB3C1EC295C067ciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1CDD2D85ACDA4A2781CB3C1EC295C067ciscocom_" --_000_1CDD2D85ACDA4A2781CB3C1EC295C067ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it helps, HTML side-by-side diffs and wdiffs attached. --_000_1CDD2D85ACDA4A2781CB3C1EC295C067ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it helps, HTML side-by-side diffs and wdiffs attached.

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Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:44:15 -0700 From: Haoyu song To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: discussion on ioam data type extension Thread-Index: AdMBO+k5WY+RG9yvTkOKwngg1eNn1gI8IYTg Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:44:14 +0000 Message-ID: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F92598B425@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F925987A2D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.193.217.119] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F92598B425SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.597F7A97.0119, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 9980a43f4616037566aa7687b612e166 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:44:44 -0000 --_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F92598B425SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, I repost the following message in case you were busy and ignored it during = the Prague meeting week. I think these issues are important to make IOAM fu= ture proof so please do help. Thanks! Best, Haoyu From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu song Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:46 AM To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension Dear WG members and those who authored or are interested in the IOAM work, Since IOAM has been adopted, we'd like to have some deep discussion on some= related issues. Let's first start from the following one. We'd like to hear your opinion. We especially want to learn from people who= are familiar with data plane technologies, chip design, and applications. Do you think we need to consider to support more standard data types? Current scheme support 16 types in total and 14 have been defined. Do you t= hink this is enough in conceivable future? The potential new data types that I can think of include identify for flows= passing packet transforming middle boxes, data for optical/mobile/wireless= network information. Do you think these use cases make sense or not? Do you have other use cases= ? If we think the data type needs to be extended, then what's the best scheme= ? TLV is an obvious option, but it has two drawbacks (1) not comply with the = current bitmap scheme; (2) not perform well on systems supporting parallel = processing; (3) code efficiency is not as good as bitmap (e.g., 1 type + le= ngth would consume at least two bytes while a two-byte bitmap can indicate = 16 new types) Do you have any argument to support either way (TLV or bitmap) for data typ= e extension? I think we should address these issues earlier than later. Your feedbacks a= re highly appreciated. Thank you very much! Please refer the following doc for more information. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm-ioam-scalability/ Best, Haoyu --_000_78A2745BE9B57D4F9D27F86655EB87F92598B425SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

I repost the following= message in case you were busy and ignored it during the Prague meeting wee= k. I think these issues are important to make IOAM future proof so please d= o help. Thanks!

 

Best,

Haoyu

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Haoyu song
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:46 AM
To: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] discussion on ioam data type extension

 

Dear WG members and those who authored or are intere= sted in the IOAM work,

 

Since IOAM has been adopted, we’d like to have= some deep discussion on some related issues. Let’s first start from = the following one.

We’d like to hear your opinion. We especially = want to learn from people who are familiar with data plane technologies, ch= ip design, and applications.

 

Do you think we need to consider to support more sta= ndard data types?

Current scheme support 16 types in total and 14 have= been defined. Do you think this is enough in conceivable future?

 

The potential new data types that I can think of inc= lude identify for flows passing packet transforming middle boxes, data for = optical/mobile/wireless network information.

Do you think these use cases make sense or not? Do y= ou have other use cases?

 

If we think the data type needs to be extended, then= what’s the best scheme?

TLV is an obvious option, but it has two drawbacks (= 1) not comply with the current bitmap scheme; (2) not perform well on syste= ms supporting parallel processing; (3) code efficiency is not as good as bi= tmap (e.g., 1 type + length would consume at least two bytes while a two-byte bitmap can indicate 16 new typ= es)

Do you have any argument to support either way (TLV = or bitmap) for data type extension?

 

I think we should address these issues earlier than = later. Your feedbacks are highly appreciated. Thank you very much!

 

Please refer the following doc for more information.=

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm= -ioam-scalability/

 

Best,

Haoyu

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