From nobody Thu Mar 2 00:21:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7AE41294AE; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:21:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?b?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148844290474.7037.17466866442603948938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 00:21:44 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] Review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 08:21:44 -0000 Reviewer: Jürgen Schönwälder Review result: Ready This update is just a collection of clarifications, I do not see any technical change. I do not expect any impact on operational networks. From nobody Fri Mar 3 09:06:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0716A12956A; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Elwyn Davies To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148856077102.10101.1427521970215789689.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:06:11 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] Review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:06:11 -0000 Reviewer: Elwyn Davies Review result: Ready I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-?? Reviewer: Elwyn Davies Review Date: 2017-03-03 IETF LC End Date: 2017-03-07 IESG Telechat date: 2017-03-16 Summary: Ready for IESG. I checked through the varous errata cited and it seems these are all covered as specified. Thanks. From nobody Tue Mar 7 23:29:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51ABB129634 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:29:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZqTk35SRn6S for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90565129632 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:29:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.100.107]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LZiQy-1c03jy2q3o-00lU1M; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 08:29:06 +0100 To: "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <4ae54d3f-1ac4-6d44-8049-c4e82d681fba@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:29:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:6kF1YwPjggQotoPmSbKomhF/hpd5Qi4uYbVzHSGCnUuTF9R6F1v aSz3Yvl3pnHh9rMyksylaaQkyHsYSiV5BCalqUEBpXLQibAz/UgnK5XQUUKcJJWuGtFijPq OtHzA0KjhOa8FELO1JeaY8bGiaEx+W1TBSrMh47T1KQfSI3A5qAlFcfKBmE6voEEtYffXM4 hpsTkkAIF/zJKvTnJ3ZKA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:1FxcFkDLedM=:VMavGTWC2kjKntmcaU1inY sZ43aXs0iLc7fm6361vvh3j7jBkZr68pjSRo7AMEHJWh1RSTtFjZJpkuYtUbbUcapgz9ET+MG XZsygLJmVkRIxDTvexagOBi3Sk0zHacgfF/AROazJiACJC/UFYvgM6aKKOjYHHM9yEWgQ0VLg F3fzNfj/9vyZHiSuqeIdTq0eE5dPciLdk1LfUUoYhDUIg2k3vwKDxDivobVNcz9E6uB1smHtR qxfB+PNCT72eVNHhzkvtyh6vImLIK+AJRr9fP/TF0P83uZsaIyR4Wyz+77wdAw0KFlmtANgP7 34iOP1tVQD04xTb4JXoa7RzxQD0h0mYevwnjnjbaKeVUxVXLwdSFrDIZRTZFQ6/XDlUG4XAfH 9hhx2/5CWcI/p3FjgFtdCuQW6QU+BTQRxM54T6DkcjoILq8+LAQevisDNnEw1QLHuSnKXSGht ZoDlIb4xK3nVQl8hRY4nWkfRzb0fKqoLui+SC2so4wefHGRH+8amBWl4XwozXTWC39Pc7d6/+ 7ZuiVLWE5M++/O0x8esEBnaJYP4qyNmBiS52145pF8RcBZGoJrF+rBoeD8tfmFwIzXJ1lADTi +3mi/8R/hYpiSZabzqhUDWxhk3VzNH4UJKmURpwypQ2uaiI1HL/HVSgOb/k4vh4tDDfBtYlHR KuIjM4PhxLCHfYNjewESA6OXYhw/XChm2cD47tmlDZ9e9iTVO3c49cUet9V3WlqLikHdkT7m7 ULBbUT+5zeMsY3uW7NzHLRyxxG0Ch4yEr3VDEsswpjgpU9LDNScY0oKwzkIejUSUvW4Mz8SgQ 2TcTfUS Archived-At: Cc: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" Subject: [Json] bug in errata list for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 07:29:11 -0000 : > [Err3607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 3607", RFC 4627, > . > > [Err3915] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, > . > > [Err4264] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, > . > > [Err4336] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, > . > > [Err607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 607", RFC 4627, > . The newly added ones have an incorrect title. That said: I realize that this way to cite an erratum is the one accepted by the RSE - other than that, it's brain dead, in that: a) it provides minimal help to actually get to the erratum (requires following a link, opening a form, entering values), and b) is semantically incorrect, as the erratum of an RFC is not the same thing as the RFC (but that's what the seriesInfo information is claiming). Best regards, Julian (cc'ing rfc-interest) From nobody Tue Mar 7 23:40:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794D1129638; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:40:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tzJ8W64Eygl1; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66A4D129613; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.100.107]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LdKs1-1c34dz37uD-00iXAJ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 08:39:50 +0100 To: Benjamin Kaduk , secdir@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:39:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:EYTmLyyauoZDVxPqbNB2Y4XlnUQetAOq4i6nJRmPvAmRmgckyl/ rrbKcjiAhgBVcTX4R1MVAGl/U+fgjAEOtLdTMYuH1hBXwQVSexVgZphDBxJB8xRWTTM0kqr mEU1XhEPYbjibmKD1MlFnkHDudg6Rc/rGrZk5JKbUnj/n+Loc6xWgBfiPBCg/JBIRHY+Hcb D126Hj/HE1Gw5zpVeV3Xg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:perBMTujxkg=:r5rO1SlULzgIB8MUe1Ulb+ DVIjAQa52p1q/gvO9wIegLcEcGSwXrDsbgxkF+LHagkaqCK+vtEyDyE+JdL6REDC4bFIGhrnx xsxm4QShfHf5hDZcR5zAHJ9bVYMoRFMkQnkaAWM8/kJS1eax9PTOwQu7bo7hmYKzHvkhYeFIH YV5YFqBcX6udcN4qb8Fg1MKxnEML0KZj+2UI4z/GGUaqWHChdlUHHH+Lcu/DYQhtXWWeu03Xh YybWCFeUYBWOwF4Z5b/YYKwje0CazsoJN+eE9z3uO6BGBcljI21ezN/Y7khgfv4QvvPoypCLp Nx57ObEhrrlMG++qMPLfZnYLWqJ3A/Tb09PBPV4r6k6cxhjdkvW9mBpq5F8zVll5VSP+wuQED f/Z7tNyLk0QT7g3Jo3i3yStgdGOlKf87k71vHo1LN/G9Eyqp46qgSMHlNvgspfjvSoVMlUnQb wzVCKPQnoEbKBp9xvrPxs9UJ0Ozf+L9D3C2Ekw0+hF+ETYeSUBm0bbuPEAtpreIift4pd+Grj ruLsiJTW3G6ZO+mTNZYoPgW7RN+6vTnjXG1LaaQrneZ9Uv9kQkKJCnoS9eutTqxjOY3/7VWD1 E31NQNjBWsA0bBPcwrCwMCAO32LXJhSUz+UlGWEhVABcjZxaJldlZYQ7FmVItzOAC9K+HiSd1 wq1IEcH2M3tD16GybBDcRstMbHg2pDcE9YxQ7zyIOVdNdCudsN/25fLcmViQPQ4jFyHBImUFJ 9jMGmXHnUfDT4f4H2x41UilmSLgNWmBBa6cBFkmlLBFhSfehwNg2c371MDUxheUVhoYINYs2A r5rLBCZs26VrU9VdJWf8qb0oPDqNUZRi6nDC15KPMOjHRcEm0jL1Z1nC12tru1xSvkTSeiE07 c1svbH6/bQHlyIEKwR43rgM6dkjIiT4qFnFXw92SSMneOE0yOHBS/9/guKv/gk9fQSzD4PFf9 0KU0+cp2Pj/knCM2w4govzRbZ1LRKPwpaebtIozOnugnqIoaxeVvxZLvJlRSN3Oua3aD0dfqZ 1BE1S1CmeVoLYSR9BJJZxuo= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 07:40:00 -0000 On 2017-03-08 02:48, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > I'm also concerned about the freewheeling use of Unicode. While > this document does discuss the potential encodings and lists UTF-8 > as the default (and most interoperable), I think it would benefit > from a stricter warning that parties using JSON for communication > must have some out-of-band way to agree on what encoding is to be > used. I would expect that this is usually going to be done by the > protocol using JSON, but could see a place for the actual > communicating peers to have out-of-band knowledge. (An application > having to guess what encoding is being used based on heuristics is a > recipe for disaster.) > ... AFAIU, there is no need for out-of-band knowledge (which would be very bad). Recipients are supposed to inspect the payload and detect which of the three encoding was used. That said, we probably should make that clearer. > ... > I'm also rather curious about the claim that no "charset" parameter > is needed as it "really has no effect on compliant recipients". Why > is this not a good way to communicate whether UTF-8, UTF-16, or > UTF-32 is in use for a given text? > ... It might have been, but that's now how it is implemented. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Mar 7 23:47:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EBB129613; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:47:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2W-Ixh5_Csb; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0C412896F; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.100.107]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ls7MZ-1cGtcJ1JNP-013vHb; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 08:47:24 +0100 To: Benjamin Kaduk , secdir@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:47:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:8Oqw7wVY0/DD8a7XvzdcgSqIJ8e45LLLt/e4P6dikmvYOmslNGc 3c7YrlpPUwJgB2IdgdzoE0B8Jd6dITvwdbhueX/s/XsJoGSmoUMsb2jFWeW4wGNprm1Wy87 zzUKKIpDEbiPh18UHa+wZeyPZdyORwATSgjjs8UBVRW9DfFcppERh8WaiIweQVXTrn9uwd3 D/lKmFd4VF/WKXG2KS8lg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:l7kQeR809eg=:qNzJhp1XQQ8LmH98LXoIs+ znoQXUT7x2LkuuTduHNxzaWVLkpnp+msMWNtxIp3cJkw2UYTXn7z2P+rLD3zb4XhRGrWFw0YQ IdvEYIa6U7lHcvtvLi/BBeZQdje2CT/UXy1qWGrYa3zDzX+03904UNYjI5ls0c6Y7L7a/k10m BH32EFjtJbgEzQ1iv9Hg7lJOXhQvWhJ7qWgGK8ORl9i0hSCGoz1vqhjyqbcDUpxBTfziQn2Ro 5gGfhrqNNgDKBMUJcdQYDk4oIA2CSsODvhjg/JMa6/MM4Tkqjyf2P7qG66rf9VmrBUssVH9vT 5uESjzMgPiagzbi0z6yEA6rMj+fWmzE7///BpAHFvZVgATbMbJC2BQUTW42nIMpfLGhSgpYyO rrS7LeM3/G/0LvugipxEGqN2NtYN47Rt3oDg2O1n/9BKdkEZTuyOWY8x/jsWDtoN1qCA7Azbp jta20R7UVDUCuke9LQY1aLQtmuKjxgBD+4z72wJdSxTFcvKnp6BmYUYisfuHx2qoDpuXcylUc GqLUzh15GuV1/W5i808Wk2ukNo2mxjDaXfMjXp5n3XtXSH0s0Hk9dSyY0Pk4KJ6Ae6PdFflAj QxEq4tXzu3sOhdkMgzN7PUe850lzx2S3duzDBRIKL3rzcFELPFjoCdKsoYyRdipAjqEGqOoGz Uk8WKQfYpuX9APj45TJ6kQKmPVyXEiBGpvkTHw2djW4DRZ3tgGlKk0d+7ax/C77CfISu/PTAd fMvUn2oNaMtjs6ViAw8HivT370GLkIEttX3XA2WOcvGC8jt48quAZ8rVKCfaTmEY/5KwQMkn5 YJMSaBX Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 07:47:29 -0000 On 2017-03-08 08:39, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-08 02:48, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >> I'm also concerned about the freewheeling use of Unicode. While >> this document does discuss the potential encodings and lists UTF-8 >> as the default (and most interoperable), I think it would benefit >> from a stricter warning that parties using JSON for communication >> must have some out-of-band way to agree on what encoding is to be >> used. I would expect that this is usually going to be done by the >> protocol using JSON, but could see a place for the actual >> communicating peers to have out-of-band knowledge. (An application >> having to guess what encoding is being used based on heuristics is a >> recipe for disaster.) >> ... > > AFAIU, there is no need for out-of-band knowledge (which would be very > bad). Recipients are supposed to inspect the payload and detect which of > the three encoding was used. > > That said, we probably should make that clearer. > >> ... >> I'm also rather curious about the claim that no "charset" parameter >> is needed as it "really has no effect on compliant recipients". Why >> is this not a good way to communicate whether UTF-8, UTF-16, or >> UTF-32 is in use for a given text? >> ... > > It might have been, but that's now how it is implemented. s/now/not/ From nobody Wed Mar 8 00:49:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370EF129570; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 00:49:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b710WRAu6p_3; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 00:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07726129468; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 00:49:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v288nkNt029277; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:49:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-cart-clients-173.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-cart-clients-173.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.145.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vdRzZ4WlPzDJ02; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:49:46 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:49:46 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 510655785.753134-e042b3f3f8d107f7b5e7cdf9db835f90 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6FEE55BE-10A8-4198-A4F0-4203BE0866F4@tzi.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , IETF , Benjamin Kaduk , secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 08:49:53 -0000 On 8 Mar 2017, at 08:39, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > > ... >> I'm also rather curious about the claim that no "charset" parameter >> is needed as it "really has no effect on compliant recipients". Why >> is this not a good way to communicate whether UTF-8, UTF-16, or >> UTF-32 is in use for a given text? >> ... >=20 > It might have been, but that's now how it is implemented. Indeed, and the reality is that JSON over UTF-16 or UTF-32 simply does = not exist as an interchange format, so the algorithm is to always just = assume UTF-8. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 8 06:10:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC11C1295E5 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 06:10:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VphOZQ4R9VG for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 06:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E72E8129472 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 06:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.34] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LvUwp-1c4ggz027f-010fVk for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 15:10:26 +0100 To: "json@ietf.org" References: <4ae54d3f-1ac4-6d44-8049-c4e82d681fba@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 15:10:26 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4ae54d3f-1ac4-6d44-8049-c4e82d681fba@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:or4mlEYLBbWoomDkPHEnXklvLt/BKnQQVjMu/1e5QUH0OkagHl2 uThJyF6iy6FRHsaIwAwdldp2o+E4jnzeFHYRRHWc3leH4WCU7RaXjlbq/ihdaD4De3vxh9i UEb9JPurLDeuGp5qNWsTIfStpR7qs2oTN1Ulhsb3bGocVvK9X7UI7BKONDKYCLL/1CgF+so 5GPZ+GCzjcG2RDNkPN6PQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:3geRwYXw7VY=:W+AwVSDwFattzJs33edvgW 4ArqWnpOoRDQIayYOWR0oRUmr28lhKsxZlL5uJqtQKLafXX8aTmt++av+6PWKJ+WZ3Hhqq4ag WylZeOL7op8/Qdpo8H3mrldvKha1ZVftZLZXwOR/obdFa06On/lOp6hXlORROcXKWxByoAg8T tkDZNSM5Hb4Vgpisqwf4t6y9BNfuJRR3Cc6ThD8jmJRyQpb5PwzN11d85OOUD5qj7LtOEc3GM ORp4HT14PNaXyXcrvdkjj0iD7z0nR9Sc8yoNS8HFsXnxBjys8fONTP5a71GNldpidDUgUD10f 7ElCTdf7vGpV/wIfCsWWcpnpjPV/Xm22L6fbBx1GYGFH2fLOeW4Wpn2UAv+mxsy0/OMfa20HY GtzqR5Z2n7QCtRGOuieRL2iH68iPF+Hdgf5nIQR+1qhpCYzP9jicjr86/gWiLltNIWVUzI6fd Dg6GVrtJsB/26mCu4E9qOh+CKrp5w5PnwAp3IXKSByK03diROOaqCQmjINlBVrP46yAmdk7OG wqdR9d1nAsqH3z5M0XRieOE7iOTAfQwElT2m4xDjYrBglRKyCDrtJhkyu7k2gHLnG6Xe4NRcs uOSXEa/ADd/ixbQ777WHa3eq1MM1F9qBkFAtVnYAmmPzTWiEOUqtA2oSF9PP5L/cs5XGUpytO wGxX3/tDC6VXwFfFDeAspw1aXfCq4jMokgrTX3LWUGrSK8NOq0QXyDZVznnAfigXBQgWM0OSm hoFqs3pSO7gZZmCyERnEGpx0WaN6vgn+aE2I47fQVBvWEDtDcK2r9P/4J3FTo7mhpH/eURAyt aTxfKyI Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] bug in errata list for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 14:10:31 -0000 On 2017-03-08 08:29, Julian Reschke wrote: > : > > >> [Err3607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 3607", RFC 4627, >> . >> >> [Err3915] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >> . >> >> [Err4264] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >> . >> >> [Err4336] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >> . >> >> [Err607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 607", RFC 4627, >> . > > > The newly added ones have an incorrect title. > ... ..also, maybe those should come with dates. (I can prepare a patch if that's what's needed to get it done) Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Mar 8 08:54:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830CD1295CA; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:54:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3htr6rfER5Gi; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94A761295F2; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.34] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MNqcR-1ct4R72TFL-007S6X; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 17:54:10 +0100 To: Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 17:54:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0EBULuRrIaEOP9mq3WYOHIk/iGpQmn5GhqA8UBSiukl91r7fasZ OmDoOdm0v7iL5V0bqkFPacymmpV9vZnbEOvv2kohz5BejF75nrWBKIN8IPy4h4CWtcT/aBZ HI2VHlLUvUvlBp7A7eBVG2IhqrbxitwxEFYR2qTupbdiV0M+iIMR1zlAgRrXIH+azMxdU26 3xdJltXDJ8AuqGxmITwKQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:v0cfFMDJEqo=:5b6eUxVlXy77OTvdbR7UDi auXXJSGXZqkMqGpKvkDjgs1ycTdCGEPUe93EW0ohQVjMOYsAnCLUQRf8gXctTM+K4yOZ7XNUR THPQ+W9KLtYGwyrwQkxh4YFGskZebsUrIXHCSstqKCjT2et0sHCPpZ2rLkc8P4yKwH3t9/u4O w/Het1teWetwBXTv0IUlyPR9Hh3RU3LcXWekF98UXj4rlFtvnWi7OiWp3WSNfRjqP37opqXYx stItlLQ8qt55JcZqNPSuL3Vek+DnFMLD+6Mc3/fKP81nkYr5MspZKe2QMyHDMRHp88EKeMM6U Xxr6sROM9MT8D0f/mBJjP6ttCu2wx8yg9gQ4k48LUKvtyUggKjWTWdX/AOFRxzw1/A//hGqYm pY0qIToAxIm3FKLzKYA9EenD8cZEXtU5VXfPA1Je5ifP0FmRSsuwPhk9LxOAEkXQgKZNHA4DR oo2N1zca1PIzGPEJ2Z1zMA2AKRBhF6tsS/9XX72Dd4ZSY3qCRmSfEVwQPnFnEiJ0RIUZqHSBz ITzW0+6D2mwBi6GnMxCZ5uVoXPi4GQpXffJyc8E36ECDB4r0sDdiVX7T1SlA3D1s6hHdeY/5s Dx55M+hcE9+ODNdGt26ljm7YSW/ZpwGB/qNjZ8UgYa2/w7IHPenRkjlFzuGKg7pWLdR0rH0JH LCRYWALcf8R7zN1mzyE3fbRq3fcnd6O63VSvpSGt1YOW4jsMCkpmg4NJQlB7FvvpHesgWrXc+ PjV6R8mxjapKxXfeRgK061u2hQiAnRHH1Kss/9RyHiKYJz4mOEya0lE2JAKQGEtrbQwhspyMS jQ6USJQ Archived-At: Cc: Matt Miller , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 16:54:20 -0000 On 2017-02-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > ... Looking at , I see: "Section 15.2 has been updated to remove ECMA 404, update the version of ECMA-262, and refresh the errata list." However, the ECMA-262 reference changes from > [ECMA-262] Ecma International, "ECMAScript Language Specification > Edition 5.1", Standard ECMA-262, June 2011, > Ecma-262.htm>. to > [ECMA-262] > Ecma International, "ECMAScript Language Specification, > Third Edition", Standard ECMA-262, December 1999, > ECMA-ST-ARCH/ > ECMA-262,%203rd%20edition,%20December%201999.pdf>. ...which looks like a downgrade to me. I believe this should be: > [ECMA-262] Ecma International, "ECMAScript(R) 2016 Language > Specification, 7th Edition", ECMA 262, June 2016, > . Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Mar 8 09:02:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF8D12952E for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:02:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qDjtVXeDQipb for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x242.google.com (mail-it0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF8831295C7 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x242.google.com with SMTP id g138so6382416itb.0 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:02:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=V7770Qlw3vBIwJcROjdvN9VO5CwoEY/jF9eEq2rbaWk=; b=NFJAadvZ4X+AAYhrtN5M4GWUfTGr32DmZf0Pg4KrfGBkhaqq334co2UtmdNo21Xbey QuEhKihY8MQ6qRh3XCHCoZzlU1Sil021gt42xBrHWG/buHFyIQ3i9xBF64RMUMUmvto7 7W5COOmggMgygso7fqe+Q7vgO5QpGNp+lzrjPnOzVFsUWu03rVrvjzRX1nB3X1i9NRyc HS4pIXH32SzyAXbbhDG04+/Iz1Ic5/aS7Dm6BM1Sy/9L/B2RYRn3UiMkW76awIrkR0RI otRzP2V24IvKaMJL2HNbSqOe0D+smuuxaHd7BHmJLgyVaFhU011IFGE3LpEQ8INchjE3 legQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=V7770Qlw3vBIwJcROjdvN9VO5CwoEY/jF9eEq2rbaWk=; b=hY/GYQQiQvar0kTNBvl+IyU+VKTuVp06ZAJZPQI3bb1idAuBcVtzGcsedchM0U4SVk iFDJruOceuWxm7yrvID33o4OmyFBIFJLdv5oLNBHz+xB6/jDQ88ZlfuuWRpxDr2V++Ug fBockzCfjZqbAO5V4W8+BzNm3oEwAFAxQ7Gu4dzRj77akKjRgBVg8DH5jSlX5uaXTVMP MdJuE7hEn61B426ePt4OgpdwzhRz2NTSRzm/W/+4E41OYAMd8vxC+4al/GKGX7W8Ellh P4jlZuRn4KzqryYdUI1f6u05OtzYe4DEQPYBX9uEmmUXuRgW8w4eWPP0HlDJ/STinO8S +OAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mjkGXyz7e4tfzwsEZCsgH0oD7AuyPkM6XXAM8DBWHoR/XUGz2iCguNuoO+tKPRbA== X-Received: by 10.36.44.12 with SMTP id i12mr7149576iti.92.1488992526939; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.29.239] (c-73-217-32-196.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.217.32.196]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b88sm7896813itd.21.2017.03.08.09.02.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:02:06 -0800 (PST) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Matthew Miller Message-ID: <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:02:04 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tD6osuXSiSV4Ca1t86IgmFavwpMAWa6Ts" Archived-At: Cc: Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 17:02:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tD6osuXSiSV4Ca1t86IgmFavwpMAWa6Ts Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="WiCShMOauoKiajBVU14KKvEQNM7kQkjaf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list Cc: "json@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: --WiCShMOauoKiajBVU14KKvEQNM7kQkjaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/08 09:54, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-02-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> ... >=20 > Looking at > , > I see: >=20 > "Section 15.2 has been updated to remove ECMA 404, update the version o= f > ECMA-262, and refresh the errata list." >=20 > However, the ECMA-262 reference changes from >=20 >> [ECMA-262] Ecma International, "ECMAScript Language Specification >> Edition 5.1", Standard ECMA-262, June 2011, >> > Ecma-262.htm>. >=20 > to >=20 >> [ECMA-262] >> Ecma International, "ECMAScript Language Specification, >> Third Edition", Standard ECMA-262, December 1999, >> > ECMA-ST-ARCH/ >> ECMA-262,%203rd%20edition,%20December%201999.pdf>. >=20 >=20 > ...which looks like a downgrade to me. >=20 > I believe this should be: >=20 >> [ECMA-262] Ecma International, "ECMAScript(R) 2016 Language >> Specification, 7th Edition", ECMA 262, June 2016, >> . >=20 > Best regards, Julian Hello Julian, the rationale for referencing third edition specifically is to give evidence of the JSON's specification history. Maybe the word "update" is debatable here, but I think the reference itself is valid. - m&m Matthew A. Miller --WiCShMOauoKiajBVU14KKvEQNM7kQkjaf-- --tD6osuXSiSV4Ca1t86IgmFavwpMAWa6Ts Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYwDkNAAoJEOz0ck4QngW76vwH/AlmDy/qPE7RPpod2SmUHHz0 +zrtZo0Zy/WduZxvmgBXs2JD0Ce+FqjTmpTYUVSK/mTf7vPpK4WWxdAjn+Q7vOlr Mu3b6RPRKGVbphOvZVIQbVZKnz5kI1T4IsOCquY93KDlOB2RdMs1vqBxpkJ0Plas IQoN0pnVGtcdWweO6sloy+8VN6lIpDRcN7YaETnTvNPikv87z1iWViKtZ9yZwufo auRvpsXwk32bT0jHnjQBwQKNtMkcdY9R33h/+vNnYCBf3PaIkvri6h9Nc2ZFFzGI CZAi0uzmXknFFMgXGgwY95eoLAZQJ/m2PuPDpd7U/MNL02gcZo72RcR6m5WO6Rg= =CWCJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tD6osuXSiSV4Ca1t86IgmFavwpMAWa6Ts-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 09:08:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C582A12952C; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:08:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5FyIO9gKEP0; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A972129524; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.34] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MZxch-1cYFaJ08g3-00LnUM; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 18:08:08 +0100 To: Matthew Miller , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:08:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:3VjjbSBz2DADqPxSCkyLCYnSZiW6HVZJtpctZIXMqqafUOOJs/k Kv1eRaYvDHd2dE5QWLbs3F2xNhwEpGslvMetX3ON1eAkfCcuytQllQuwTeZJjRPXtx8/jmH PIR7+XHUhGl7++DNImar8Hwbo2rU8pUR+Z/XXr+4NsOMPnAESZleuo7vxE7VhTpq3GF3XFi rUBalg6pJl7jo4X/aIu3w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:xWTHgRELCEA=:WcGsv3xs3qd+YMt5IrbXrg wTfl7vVek5ItyHUGoBbeeDUEcOLtcfDIOILdt/4sKzRwinTPvJwyAY3ghBwN4MjgXVJfCF2ce lbx6n3wXVyEaLOpVuPD79z4NQWPQ/SFzrTdd5QjKseYTpHnldNJqK5mHvw3M3EsvXmG5tT+jF Wy/xQGOqb9nUu4lEgG2PP7FNzfDR19PDta3Gjoye44xGJuwDg2gPNfuwsbtLfAiqQ4rBp438w OXeOlVGz8UNJTaRwSFAdYfxvHe/E0yljgawaQp+K0bgUT+Cz8XEKmFiUwGplH+3UJktBN6I8b 4M3QMiBaimKoj24w4iTxxYJg6f3FThzoa3OtI8W6lvI6Fxms8H59NGlWx2PhaNmctP3E07St9 4jJZ0y5y1Wsx7ydxHRCqIeUo2HirZTP1Ym9YLdgejNYcdIeYzw5zwcpvOZQ7bzDGa+u0OVzig 0fP4z0FJJGHSglC0Pu4+KnsSdVRv8xl3eWBXc0OATGQ9Fj5wpm4nHvzC45XTMlKGFB5XiTrxn C8wWplhZScXARdV/zE65ekUSSNfS0aNEyI8Jubw/qcmgorgMRAqu+P4S5T3ty0CWdVRhtG4OA uRl6QckUNjK8H6orkOLgMNx7E066y5xEWBA4JCu+E10cgUuFp0qUTx8p42Y0fr4ukwWICaZ94 sTc0RHljuMePKzSYFnRfZq9+7soohqJfX+e0FcRI7KvKkA30sn6Csk9Shog4jfA48sYPCKImO 5qdEBnunez9E1S5XIykKLV11ZgAJOT1pgwN4oJYhRWbbT9yDTABTudm7iNfY8tKrYrYECsgq7 qBQH0+p Archived-At: Cc: Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 17:08:13 -0000 On 2017-03-08 18:02, Matthew Miller wrote: > ... > the rationale for referencing third edition specifically is to give > evidence of the JSON's specification history. Maybe the word "update" > is debatable here, but I think the reference itself is valid. > ... Well. In that case, why is the 3rd edition a specifically good one to cite? Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Mar 8 09:12:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F387129793 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9J80Oid9n9Rc for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69B7412979D for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v28HCIvL009960; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:12:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.20.10.11] (ip-109-40-1-31.web.vodafone.de [109.40.1.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vdg7Q1BtYzDJG5; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:12:18 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:12:16 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 510685936.446691-56b5cae80a883436901fcdfa036ed4b2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <09CD2026-068C-4048-A03E-24F20362C36D@tzi.org> References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 17:12:23 -0000 On 8 Mar 2017, at 18:08, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Well. In that case, why is the 3rd edition a specifically good one to = cite? It=E2=80=99s the one the JSON design was taken from? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 8 09:14:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352951297B8 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0F92C_5aOYCz for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x241.google.com (mail-it0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 877741297BC for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x241.google.com with SMTP id g138so6464387itb.0 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=HnmsjfEd7NZT+EO6ECYRJbsWfymUQe8KPGyLEYbGrlU=; b=ajlbCgs6j3RPqQiFZ/I2Xx3PoqoSt53KeGkPwf+DC1bor6KR9i3MFZGtqdwwPssxtp ek9VgZeIYM8+pQZgPkKV4p05cYkG5a8VWXZAma9M+z2DpmiGoHzcl1Yr++7+ZEiOcqEh sICcjX2fZelC1s3rFq7xq6EaNvB/5psAYxPqBIt8oZnEW8NdwGNYQLOpg8CjWXOqbxnP IiqhOTfyGnGt8+yOWiFdJu/fIt/i7PuSHwaWSBWUT6Q6IC1tmf4xJxTp0VeiySWVHjEP 5W/o1m6hf2/4Fi23jvDtooouF+XRTjhwV4l+LTkIqqk0ABUKI4zuYrfTK+FW1dcSZpgY B5mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=HnmsjfEd7NZT+EO6ECYRJbsWfymUQe8KPGyLEYbGrlU=; b=q9D5adExBChT5RBxSzcybgeVlUhIUgxyDvDmjzGQdLrJBMkr2uP3WApghmhV1eWHX7 GFZjUb2yKrdgKg35faasf9BGmBoA/5h4Auaxr2i454rYMvYlHxU5LCtqMjvZzbItmpmK CBd/gDukSQU57w4gCm5eVfaZfOImVNqMO6smLypdM70VOKT11N3n/8oWx15FhVJfoPxe 7FBqQmmtZyIZ1aBR12IQfqZceEPdyhNhFcslicFVclPqfc3iCwG8BIPmpnrg9w1wPZt4 1JeLKdqGnNJhFzCh6P1lo1t2KKZYujXcIYJTE4othH5MmkSHwDfwiHNw9+UfMhJ8iXQA H1zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kDuAt0a2NnJrNFWJGMhiWeNSQHKKFzmJB6UqNgkMX9vV+7lJNB8WOYaU6RhVxidw== X-Received: by 10.107.19.97 with SMTP id b94mr7017931ioj.93.1488993240704; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.29.239] (c-73-217-32-196.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.217.32.196]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g200sm1760651ioe.28.2017.03.08.09.13.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 09:14:00 -0800 (PST) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> From: Matthew Miller Message-ID: <6726c1a4-1856-f53e-4caa-e72a25f51511@outer-planes.net> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:13:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nvrIllvQKCAPHD4bq0Q8B7sMnJiAUXIfV" Archived-At: Cc: Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 17:14:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nvrIllvQKCAPHD4bq0Q8B7sMnJiAUXIfV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="m86GTmpe80lFfNrmK5xNpTORs86Oe6xwm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list Cc: "json@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <6726c1a4-1856-f53e-4caa-e72a25f51511@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> --m86GTmpe80lFfNrmK5xNpTORs86Oe6xwm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/08 10:08, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-08 18:02, Matthew Miller wrote: >> ... >> the rationale for referencing third edition specifically is to give >> evidence of the JSON's specification history. Maybe the word "update"= >> is debatable here, but I think the reference itself is valid. >> ... >=20 > Well. In that case, why is the 3rd edition a specifically good one to c= ite? >=20 > Best regards, Julian Third Edition is where the object literal syntax (from whence JSON was begotten) made its appearance. Also, the latest editions of ECMA-262 doesn't discuss JSON the data format; that is what (for them) ECMA-404 is for. - m&m Matthew Miller --m86GTmpe80lFfNrmK5xNpTORs86Oe6xwm-- --nvrIllvQKCAPHD4bq0Q8B7sMnJiAUXIfV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYwDvXAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7PhwIAL8gYbUArmQjygv4oYXpSIU3 AmFueCo1VucqSXMKImSN2olWkwrPqnBPppd8YIStjNzX72WFjOrN76mdfY6mbt7q 9dt9ZQ/GrBs8FcbVpHRpL1P2p+9SdXqi69B97b3haUK2vEZ2cXwbw7xGcpSZLHK6 /cTRkpTFBXKrzu14semSVPAM5TX8ns6HGDp3MkYRc4ZAoAkODfIemFODy11/RQt/ VoXXIw4vBfeeWfrHdYZEIkSO56QezH0XFbdJaag/9HSBYnyzaAhGHZwy7h7FkTkB CtK1esemipSc5wuK1WHb0luUUVma/wI5FRmGEkFfZIIH+SOL/C5zVgZV6Quu7oc= =a0An -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nvrIllvQKCAPHD4bq0Q8B7sMnJiAUXIfV-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 10:11:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79F7129440; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZUBsvXbJk3n; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F491128AB0; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.100.107]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbJTE-1cV76y3pdU-00Iitb; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 19:11:29 +0100 To: Matthew Miller , Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list References: <148768893008.19098.12067836059813292525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <25d4b0e3-d59f-ca30-0a8c-dae40569b5c0@outer-planes.net> <1d5419fc-875f-394b-5371-4d53c9064aae@gmx.de> <6726c1a4-1856-f53e-4caa-e72a25f51511@outer-planes.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <80790084-3dc9-225f-33f5-a95be290cb91@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 19:11:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6726c1a4-1856-f53e-4caa-e72a25f51511@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:4Ian1WYI4EOlLCtAro64luWklgFLC6/LEiQByn1Rqvdf/cu1NFP 6Ybn39gvprE7zJJn2j9NOJRmQ37eH/1ZhVHPvM0EZKBxJC0hu0EaKBPp9kSIQIjESeUxZZo GEKu5TsXAtBSiY5I+r0ANsAjG3CbH7cdQJ5PV4OuJCAwQTkhVK3OE6dztr4vQDah6SwxObb hjbvik9q0PxnVYMihLyjg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:tQ5LEZuLGms=:LGqwUAI4+h3ctsrViXT+VF bzVkOO4mM9GXxurI+V9TsShkLw0ZLnOoua4kmfEo4wGvEExqdvZrYh05h/oqAoAtHXq7aggsl BQ58aZspT9ojtXK4/hfH8CYNXIQ/pyjiGeXvLreTmzy3vhR5rm88P9BNqNXoXI6Lpx2TRkm7U Sieq7lrzpwSCDbcRE4P/vtJiwVVJ732FolNDvtl2J3btW8cuFHvB/xA9msoI0i+P9nqhy6lYi DfLgS3iXte7LnBpON/DPL/VcVpfUZkqUXb0SMVPxjeSXT7jp+7uxk5EaGYbh7b3eik7eOdWth hlRBRzAN9HnqjoRKLrXOHWE/bAKM9hZ753P1DeL3ckTEvOR5ZnchEnK5OlrgDo1Se15NhJP2S orDW67G2+sCW/HNX1sw9J5LanzUohfEngvXibTooxLaz0p8KjWExrtRFbGuRXqFQAWUipU2UG 5RL0hids8JhND+ct1pzM8ekHWKl80pFtmyrYGwObct/awp3tCxzHBf4eSgRHDCmvLex8cAjrM SslWkH5/k6RL4xvQastmHWzMrQqPR7MeHqG0itbUAtzl57Em+VBS86KQ1Snr4Xf3/ZYcP5Vhk t/xM1LAY47tShPsH4Nf1miFmT6q8ycO1/2xCbnTHcnvCQo/H+qOQMF1KJK+4S/HbvAOPxL3eK mPp4Cz7mZGrEWZDY8xAusn9H/n7jhcsCPxjON3FVrQJOj7SixPKDe84Jpu/LuIYvLepvbs8LN i1GOWMdX6IWl2WSozUeABJOt/ubzPITCD8ft2E3RdwFTtlxT4sESXYfFLgzyWcpDD5Ns3tWyr 9CD+PY0 Archived-At: Cc: Alexey Melnikov , "json@ietf.org" , jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Last Call: (The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format) to Internet Standard X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 18:11:38 -0000 On 2017-03-08 18:13, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On 17/03/08 10:08, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-08 18:02, Matthew Miller wrote: >>> ... >>> the rationale for referencing third edition specifically is to give >>> evidence of the JSON's specification history. Maybe the word "update" >>> is debatable here, but I think the reference itself is valid. >>> ... >> >> Well. In that case, why is the 3rd edition a specifically good one to cite? >> >> Best regards, Julian > > Third Edition is where the object literal syntax (from whence JSON was > begotten) made its appearance. Also, the latest editions of ECMA-262 > doesn't discuss JSON the data format; that is what (for them) ECMA-404 > is for. OK. A few words about this, either in the place where it's referenced, or as annotation of the reference, would be helpful. Best regards, Julian From nobody Wed Mar 8 11:40:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8631293FE for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id quD__y9oBrIf for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x230.google.com (mail-ua0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1C56120725 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x230.google.com with SMTP id u30so54583468uau.0 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:40:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1jecbKh2B3cRSoNiS11m+hYZGQ+H9WRXEgHRzf+++C8=; b=lhq2T4VrBbZ+VtUi3CEtiH0D/Jahgp1juE7Iu9lEVPNmk9+3c/ugKQlG1wjktMbm/v veG2hLu2ndeEZFdO6/Qtpu6h8Q+Ta0b8Mc+8QmWise9j5+wfJXysuTI8b+dGGIDzqDGi nI4Us00uLBJkrZiwlimIVaKAAhbcbZwFBrlybmzgYybHtm8SBGDDlrTaxugikytB6VGJ /ikXQNoHpcfMYPESAVTqQDAO2r+CzJIMzPubxKxBPMSGOVgZ/3ZddmQOYRTh3KRym0k3 2RV96H9ZUt+oWo/ilZX8eemTaBVBya6YZ6GoCTA4SNRvYbOi3wgG5egBiOIGDdh9R6aP 21mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1jecbKh2B3cRSoNiS11m+hYZGQ+H9WRXEgHRzf+++C8=; b=F0EtI9R1iNTUtZvPUkyMC9Sk6SA6gNWcToY1QDIBRG6F/OsWpcQZUNrPeciL4KNaAn 97TwQp0iJXhQH/x60aYyeVz5fBoU0nVFM7thVMAqgcsICDVq0EZgFCsyCT2htVC9UnZ/ +cDYD9fykpJH+EBTTcka3M5rN9r9kjDYZ1jpIiyENJQb8w6no/jnwuCDnsWRZpVD51xh 5pZSoB+7mrQecAD6TR5Fa4m+DdhyPQMhxRyhEXWebyyUoAF6jbL2cGRhPoIP/2kMDeGl PIR24g/J+9wsERCIvQwUai684KG3uGmSWLH3IIwd54mDdRaL0VLl1jNSwc3fkKVtgQTL iocQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lk0DcV8Qn8qYRIwq93zINGt2SHZNo7NuSTcVn3NPuuIkWNWKNPR7r0omtgkgVqn7R3Y+7Ju4QoOsvaIA== X-Received: by 10.200.41.75 with SMTP id z11mr9665512qtz.183.1489002037835; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:40:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.92.147 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:37 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [64.141.86.146] Received: by 10.140.92.147 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4ae54d3f-1ac4-6d44-8049-c4e82d681fba@gmx.de> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:40:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f18dc898a99054a3d4d61 Archived-At: Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] bug in errata list for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 19:40:40 -0000 --001a113f18dc898a99054a3d4d61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 While a patch would be welcome, I don't mind doing the patching given a little guidance as to what we're trying to achieve. Let's see what Paul's RSE intervention turns up. On Mar 8, 2017 6:10 AM, "Julian Reschke" wrote: > On 2017-03-08 08:29, Julian Reschke wrote: > >> > 3#section-15.2>: >> >> >> [Err3607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 3607", RFC 4627, >>> . >>> >>> [Err3915] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >>> . >>> >>> [Err4264] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >>> . >>> >>> [Err4336] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 7159, >>> . >>> >>> [Err607] RFC Errata, "Errata ID 607", RFC 4627, >>> . >>> >> >> >> The newly added ones have an incorrect title. >> ... >> > > ..also, maybe those should come with dates. (I can prepare a patch if > that's what's needed to get it done) > > Best regards, Julian > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --001a113f18dc898a99054a3d4d61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While a patch would be welcome, I don't mind doing th= e patching given a little guidance as to what we're trying to achieve. = Let's see what Paul's RSE intervention turns up.

On Mar 8, 2017 6:10 AM, "= Julian Reschke" <julian.re= schke@gmx.de> wrote:
On 2017-03-08 08:29, Julian Reschke wrote:
<https://tools.ietf.org/= html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03#section-15.2>:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Err3607]=C2=A0 RFC Errata, "Errata ID 3607", RFC 46= 27,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.rfc-editor.= org>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Err3915]=C2=A0 RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 71= 59,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.rfc-editor.= org>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Err4264]=C2=A0 RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 71= 59,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.rfc-editor.= org>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Err4336]=C2=A0 RFC Errata, "Errata ID 7159", RFC 71= 59,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.rfc-editor.= org>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Err607]=C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC Errata, "Errata ID 607", RF= C 4627,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.rfc-editor.= org>.


The newly added ones have an incorrect title.
...

..also, maybe those should come with dates. (I can prepare a patch if that&= #39;s what's needed to get it done)

Best regards, Julian

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json
--001a113f18dc898a99054a3d4d61-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 21:54:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDF2127ABE; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:54:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3jHOIdMARNR; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-5.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-5.mit.edu [18.7.68.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1FBA1297CB; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 12074422-1a7ff70000001f4d-f9-58c0edf1de49 Received: from mailhub-auth-4.mit.edu ( [18.7.62.39]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 4C.84.08013.1FDE0C85; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 00:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-4.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id v295rqUr019091; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 00:53:53 -0500 Received: from kduck.kaduk.org (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id v295rmPK016024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Mar 2017 00:53:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 23:53:48 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixG6nrvvx7YEIg593rS1mPfvBaPFs43wW i3tzii02P3zDavFh4UMWB1aPDx/jPJYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAldH0r4W5oJ234uDV /UwNjPO5uhg5OSQETCR+z77D2sXIxSEk0MYk8e/Cb0YIZwOjxNo1M5ggnCtMErP/bmICaWER UJH49WgyK4jNBmQ3dF9mBrFFBLQkbt/bywhiMwtUSEw+sB3MFhZwleiYexusnhdo3Y7uDVAb pjBKfJ+4ngUiIShxcuYTFohmLYkb/14CLeMAsqUllv/jAAlzClhJTHr9B2yOqICyRMOMB8wT GAVmIemehaR7FkL3AkbmVYyyKblVurmJmTnFqcm6xcmJeXmpRbqmermZJXqpKaWbGMEh7KK0 g3HiP69DjAIcjEo8vALCByKEWBPLiitzDzFKcjApifIaBACF+JLyUyozEosz4otKc1KLDzFK cDArifDuugSU401JrKxKLcqHSUlzsCiJ84prNEYICaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZGU4OJQkeJe9AWoU LEpNT61Iy8wpQUgzcXCCDOcBGh4DUsNbXJCYW5yZDpE/xagoJc67DiQhAJLIKM2D6wWlGIns /TWvGMWBXhHm/QpSxQNMT3Ddr4AGMwEN1nbdCzK4JBEhJdXA6CK2ffoffsUt9/cHnjPwT2Ox +7s+QjDNt//idxGJz8+FvEV+SzlrMyUp8oUdP/hT2+ays3F754ObKkvvMOd4KSr9NH23/Eax Y552Bf/La/bbfpvd/8Uc9Vevm3tewNcFFvN+/Jghwd3GK1geuyx/qbDBTL2Vi25IaLjfCpgd LDxfWMhVu3SvEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAVklLhwwDAAA= Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 05:54:10 -0000 On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 08:47:24AM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-08 08:39, Julian Reschke wrote: > > On 2017-03-08 02:48, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > >> I'm also concerned about the freewheeling use of Unicode. While > >> this document does discuss the potential encodings and lists UTF-8 > >> as the default (and most interoperable), I think it would benefit > >> from a stricter warning that parties using JSON for communication > >> must have some out-of-band way to agree on what encoding is to be > >> used. I would expect that this is usually going to be done by the > >> protocol using JSON, but could see a place for the actual > >> communicating peers to have out-of-band knowledge. (An application > >> having to guess what encoding is being used based on heuristics is a > >> recipe for disaster.) > >> ... > > > > AFAIU, there is no need for out-of-band knowledge (which would be very > > bad). Recipients are supposed to inspect the payload and detect which of > > the three encoding was used. > > > > That said, we probably should make that clearer. If that's what's supposed to happen, it should probably be more clear, yes. (But aren't there texts that have valid interpretations in multiple encodings?) > >> ... > >> I'm also rather curious about the claim that no "charset" parameter > >> is needed as it "really has no effect on compliant recipients". Why > >> is this not a good way to communicate whether UTF-8, UTF-16, or > >> UTF-32 is in use for a given text? > >> ... > > > > It might have been, but that's now how it is implemented. > > s/now/not/ Alas. Thanks for the insight. -Ben From nobody Fri Mar 10 18:09:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272FB129527 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:09:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUMdhTxCBhN8 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B4B129534 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u48so74787309wrc.0 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=09DcN8lr70VIKGmVSwBDfg4zFIJpN6+l9pPEM7I/2II=; b=AaNY1fO0w02ZlBqNKKJXurf6/N9ERh4CY8zf52eHGWar/akzNoxnYnPA7EIQDAXKLg IY7xNJyuUiXbRWmg6ZyTI5Z3WBiCP73RP0UvVHZmTDHpZV5S8sN2XiAvZv+cy0CR8m8V 7ZVozdONfvTr4Pr+TPx61LWk3/LkImM4DsPNsm1luehm2yfJAKh7ANBN58oqfSEVSYgA e5gbkL7tGLN3sm5LCGcsBhb94P5xewC8dwm9ktsioxADkFdBzG7rCpY5ZGlSBY0f9y+j alMowvOhGnLFoP9v5v5GQP25GSF1YyyGJ/oHqjVl7dt6WGRxIYRJZkUB28917imtsaNb hVbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=09DcN8lr70VIKGmVSwBDfg4zFIJpN6+l9pPEM7I/2II=; b=C7Q1WRUwgMa/7m15jtu92u/NHP+/58w78OaKVSQ2pv9rqUb19r7ahOWILoi7mwiOWn p7pJRX3DtwDLAHJ7LZvk1nYzKXTeXx3GFeUhcguSJxlfmdQXQl/zTROUNjk8V9O7igsz 1rk4YM3MU2neeHRNEn1OKBz5Gow2n3dz+cvbvymEDyuLDOtEVoh3eCA/avGqu80o1fgX 7wDdzSWebKIe6zU/9J9T1LF3d7IyrISFqov1u3EawUBYHRmBdzXHpPKRpAbK0V5VmuuK KM8IMiHAxBq2/gI4BSe0uHB/Dfg9BBMuF8m9AiO+OGtmlzVgI1x/huAGIiwfmKuI4n+L 674w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39m23ngfGZeOM3j+lHZ6tsjpLom07EoPIPuku71qDZUrmxSz5g5NVI3e0aYP/+xedjpkj9sOPXU7UeovKjXg X-Received: by 10.223.152.215 with SMTP id w81mr20250782wrb.151.1489198136300; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:08:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> From: John Cowan Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:08:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c36a6ea2d48054a6af5a1 Archived-At: Cc: Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 02:09:05 -0000 --001a113c36a6ea2d48054a6af5a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: If that's what's supposed to happen, it should probably be more > clear, yes. (But aren't there texts that have valid interpretations > in multiple encodings?) > Not if the content is well-formed JSON and the only possible encodings are UTF-8, UTF-16, and UTF-32. It suffices to examine the first four bytes of the input. If there are no NUL bytes in the first four bytes, it is UTF-8; if there are two NUL bytes, it is UTF-16; if there are three NUL bytes, it is UTF-32. This works because the grammar requires the first character to be in the ASCII repertoire, and the NUL *character* (U+0000) is not allowed at all. -- John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. --Bilbo --001a113c36a6ea2d48054a6af5a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> = wrote:

If that's what's supposed to happen, = it should probably be more
clear, yes.=C2=A0 (But aren't there texts that have valid interpretatio= ns
in multiple encodings?)

Not if the content = is well-formed JSON and the only possible encodings are UTF-8, UTF-16, and = UTF-32.=C2=A0 It suffices to examine the first four bytes of the input.=C2= =A0 If there are no NUL bytes=C2=A0in the first four bytes, it is UTF-8; if= there are two NUL bytes, it is UTF-16; if there are three NUL bytes, it is= UTF-32.=C2=A0 This works because the grammar requires the first character = to be in the ASCII repertoire, and the NUL *character* (U+0000) is not allo= wed at all.

--=C2=A0
J= ohn Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I = like less
than half of you half as well as = you deserve. =C2=A0--Bilbo

=
--001a113c36a6ea2d48054a6af5a1-- From nobody Fri Mar 10 22:12:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60964129469; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnqyjii5-GiD; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 065CD128BA2; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.121.40]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LhNwC-1cQSw22LQW-00maWB; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:12:46 +0100 To: John Cowan , Benjamin Kaduk References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:12:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:LCf1AaG3eRDHEgm3RLe10joYTBzTE+NJvIdrjH8yV4V+orhcr+k BhzWYehxmeNAzrC4qfYOiu1WDRVldvGFCKvMf2NuUZMz28aYJ1E/4W1SFUOEdLQsgW4qIkF tzCy6LzoWLe9wXy4TEQOjHTKu1MqS1U6etzGLjI25S8lAVPOCMHgCWUMUnQgIeA+F9exGIW UEvzgwtXFWTfeWd24so0Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:japFPxPXC5Q=:N+IIWiOcKYz/pHLBgRumPI 6qVqJqSP5KVQIw7VeyNZIn+ZE1QXz4GDRT86zqMl9dsv/WBoYlFfvhUiOEMTGzIj4ST31HEFB LYrSlt4x939UQuKFHlGbdmmYzgUMQQRvmeqh966bEX0Pooq7bXB2rzzmTd6x/KmMro07V6NQJ xNAkaGbMQWOVuqLpEFHJIPj8VDezsryKVQ2Yf7+bARo/l1ehz7G5lbZBjo/LKdY3CCB9GDKt3 wFanGcqyvLUYpcc0Whqc73t058dvQMcq8OnM/tbxrL0LzOeQyJG2j2Zgt/HykkT5kTxFku0Sf vPDM6vcoGvskLn2IxNQoscQJ5IkdXccq2SUkUzn9DZUGRu88lwuui45j7dnKVfrbDgHU47hoq WEB6qE0AeDFr7+nMI7q3csnEcZVeyl7Iq+dKLeOzyO7W25C7HAWAJFaIMsHT23w6DuaneBzDa OyYrTwcgNqV354e1W0g1sv652QoJ2cqJgKRu+3UrbEKaUvL6ue3uHpntbPRuPyIgmNXF6ZJCD Qk0gMqHoVcoC8mv/tpp59a8wSn9gx2UcDKFDWJEkVKAMMjgolIUS6SSX+OT6JJOTt865mpIDU gcGTtnHDRq17MFVHDFxb/uqgz0sdTNYonmzRC0PjEy455eBmWVJDqPbZTMX5aG63AOt/sBC/t 1ED23UfR9XkEOmMlY4GXqCd/uENPk3EuhBWoX83Q7tM6xZCBuxJiTqCIsEzx1B1gjS9WWWX8a ZQyWNbTrQ35BGmsCP6zsH+gQ0rQszCTH3B8GYlwEdQQwmSYb+/0QqMgROXYJuK7PZYVBfMxDb vbPWOPq Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 06:12:53 -0000 On 2017-03-11 03:08, John Cowan wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: > > If that's what's supposed to happen, it should probably be more > clear, yes. (But aren't there texts that have valid interpretations > in multiple encodings?) > > > Not if the content is well-formed JSON and the only possible encodings > are UTF-8, UTF-16, and UTF-32. It suffices to examine the first four > bytes of the input. If there are no NUL bytes in the first four bytes, > it is UTF-8; if there are two NUL bytes, it is UTF-16; if there are > three NUL bytes, it is UTF-32. This works because the grammar requires > the first character to be in the ASCII repertoire, and the NUL > *character* (U+0000) is not allowed at all. Good explanation. Maybe the spec should include it. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Mar 11 07:48:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87D9129507; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:48:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WI45xcIi5XbC; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F9912941D; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QBU8WKPNWW00OVR5@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:43:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QBQBR8XOKG0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:43:41 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:41:17 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 11 Mar 2017 07:12:45 +0100" References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> To: Julian Reschke Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 15:48:50 -0000 > On 2017-03-11 03:08, John Cowan wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Kaduk > > wrote: > > > > If that's what's supposed to happen, it should probably be more > > clear, yes. (But aren't there texts that have valid interpretations > > in multiple encodings?) > > > > > > Not if the content is well-formed JSON and the only possible encodings > > are UTF-8, UTF-16, and UTF-32. It suffices to examine the first four > > bytes of the input. If there are no NUL bytes in the first four bytes, > > it is UTF-8; if there are two NUL bytes, it is UTF-16; if there are > > three NUL bytes, it is UTF-32. This works because the grammar requires > > the first character to be in the ASCII repertoire, and the NUL > > *character* (U+0000) is not allowed at all. > Good explanation. Maybe the spec should include it. +1 This exact issue just came up in a media type review, where someone specified a charset parameter because they weren't aware of this algorithm. It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. Ned From nobody Sat Mar 11 18:59:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E31A12986A for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSY80y56rx-u for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22a.google.com (mail-wr0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E573A1294CC for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u108so84965931wrb.3 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:59:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HTuqMJ0eIgT7tTLAXbRgrHVav8Y0LsJygzS2gF95pX0=; b=o+5VkRdFFUVJWFtbEpFKYtgpSFQamsl2Enybw0Ri+36h512oB68bgxuRMtjDlNl+KY WNm4LhTnE7jHXajLdT9qof3zWCT8Vaj6945ELRrONncDm81teEBe6p4N1zeO6oYJzGsq qLLdpDTIxOUYDAzEeAjnMUp2QrY1dfVOT2wuFhjE6xqGPizBwsK2wcMJLK835CEwk8/d s7l5+RVVSF6BRBCjyR/km6l4jwxLNrpqujOWeNLO5fpV9Z6H1CsA9hfaTfjBZvrlEwF6 8IzM4K2CG+EpIAvehqoigm1TM36s/GVPVJPbKz0/gf7A2mZ8PKjD/M0CRffGNQq5l3K4 1stA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HTuqMJ0eIgT7tTLAXbRgrHVav8Y0LsJygzS2gF95pX0=; b=lrGA3J7gzwLoRVV8a2DUmF0CRoNML0Sw6Q2vgfVsFiBfrE2nbYSs1IDsPmWWeKXaj4 dOR5J60M1IvecB0bLnlpe4RZWI0q7NuROjIulR0AlZ3KiJu4n+sPDKmc9F2+AtujQhiq cTO/XyeCU8DCx29lsDdURXMSbjs8gkilTuGzabIp8IEu4mLCISLVylM60GCHbwvasPdz 7YX50vpqj8mTFQWgLUNHkdpe0RQRQHKlSLuJ9yqfmEzuS6hIr6ohGkwo/ikm0Ey6grbm xm6nQY4b7TE56d1jiJlhRQvycITu4tQvRjjMebl/PcHhclT30m2g0KhY8DRVBvozflOT mDuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lnZwoce+hvXlhbYRCZU+vfmds9+0CBm1qGs0Q1SeD9BPAAky0Xo0mLqxVpTpAxGKkUsjoSQ9mBgTAN3T1B X-Received: by 10.223.152.215 with SMTP id w81mr24691006wrb.151.1489287541232; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:59:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:58:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> From: John Cowan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:58:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ned Freed Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c36a6dd285e054a7fc6ea Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 02:59:04 -0000 --001a113c36a6dd285e054a7fc6ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Ned Freed wrote: This exact issue just came up in a media type review, where someone > specified a charset parameter because they weren't aware of this algorithm. > > It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. Feel free, whoever is the editor now, to add it. -- John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org But that, he realized, was a foolish thought; as no one knew better than he that the Wall had no other side. --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Wall of Darkness" > > Ned > --001a113c36a6dd285e054a7fc6ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com= > wrote:

This exact issue just came up in a media type review, where someone
specified a charset parameter because they weren't aware of this algori= thm.

It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC.
Feel free, whoever is the editor now, to add it.

=
--=C2=A0
But that, he realized, was a foolish thought; as no one k= new better than
he that the Wall had no other side.
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Wall of Darkness&quo= t;=C2=A0



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ned

--001a113c36a6dd285e054a7fc6ea-- From nobody Sun Mar 12 01:06:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D82129476 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:06:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivoGenb9Vz0D for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60DF5126D73 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1030 invoked from network); 12 Mar 2017 08:59:10 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 12 Mar 2017 08:59:10 +0000 To: Ned Freed , Julian Reschke References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:06:24 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:06:30 -0000 On 11/03/2017 15:41, Ned Freed wrote: >> On 2017-03-11 03:08, John Cowan wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Kaduk > > > wrote: >> > >> > If that's what's supposed to happen, it should probably be more >> > clear, yes. (But aren't there texts that have valid >> interpretations >> > in multiple encodings?) >> > >> > >> > Not if the content is well-formed JSON and the only possible encodings >> > are UTF-8, UTF-16, and UTF-32. It suffices to examine the first four >> > bytes of the input. If there are no NUL bytes in the first four bytes, >> > it is UTF-8; if there are two NUL bytes, it is UTF-16; if there are >> > three NUL bytes, it is UTF-32. This works because the grammar requires >> > the first character to be in the ASCII repertoire, and the NUL >> > *character* (U+0000) is not allowed at all. > >> Good explanation. Maybe the spec should include it. > > +1 > > This exact issue just came up in a media type review, where someone > specified a charset parameter because they weren't aware of this algorithm. > > It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. Although it does need slightly more detail to take into account endian-ness in the case of UTF-16 and -32. The XML spec may offer some example text: https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#sec-guessing Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com From nobody Sun Mar 12 01:09:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1BE1293FD; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:09:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRq2vriQ6M-Z; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 770C9126D73; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2C99lQl008734; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:09:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vgwDq3PQ6zDHsX; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:09:47 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:09:46 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511002586.144963-2ff5f2a34eda08f56731e4c680bd2c78 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9F2F2116-4985-4561-BFD3-24B374E4C4ED@tzi.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> To: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , IETF , secdir@ietf.org, Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:09:55 -0000 On 11 Mar 2017, at 16:41, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote: >=20 > It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. That would be a regression. A better change would be to remove the fiction that JSON exists in = UTF-16 or UTF-32 forms. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Mar 12 01:14:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DA7129B01; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:14:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPwwWuK9R5zL; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC607129B00; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.89.49]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ld0E0-1cMlZt0Pwm-00iAfB; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:14:05 +0100 To: Peter Cordell , Ned Freed References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:14:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:EBZZbuwf0wSMyEt5vpfTrDMD2A2TLrR/v0XrY+AFn9pTUiYCtQn 1JfsTBIPy8gpy4+ZzArmk3beM13BFRcinJzwghAXdFt2GZDVvyQTfvmOs+vdUcJsH4dpqAL /hE+EDxmuv0xshk/6X3blC6gekmdD03LwLNlXc8eLsl6TTEV4apZpMoIX6G0O1RSYDnGunB S+B0OClX0XzR41rmzuU0g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:XR2BrSIL2Yo=:3bGUZ2Dop4QI8MYQmVx/xF 61IyODJT8d7ulKG3BZeDQCONozTzTQJ4MJe3W47QtEVe0GQYjt4COVoD7qQ3xrAdF6+cSiJGe bXJv6xKz6jsIgNCp9tip6C7Y2lOOyM0oEjbHhnI+33U2gvEiZ7GaRvLDOmmH5BoYZKSZ00ABV vTRXLvjTWMGBRnPp/L08c4SyVNn3tyIEg/JjzTWyJrxWIx00Lvtl7knHy1HsF5K44NRyvRl3Q jlpvRXAvNKYFTjXxSkxXHE1VmcS3HhXbVURUeDWf9EeJM9sS3O0LxBH4FChzrbDtZ56WAkHwt 7btAJKCSUeW+ufUNHVLv57swS8q/cEYge8Rwx5l3ykhxVp7hb5/FZbyQeujt89gLupTkHnfJU gDQTB2SQg61L/cIT3CQvWpXrGcF3Trv+9oxDXecrUhLUrBUX82VqCIfO7ZGgD8mVxCYec6nW8 YvX1RUEsRL6TX7BOJsWBLE+KQYLhyzT7PF3RZVR4ZDy7H1qfTQ4x/e8IHC7A4J/XSq+l/Yvm/ nJiq5cE38Xfs4g2ZSd6E6KkwnrhKF3V6kBtbGo9tm6q/k9vPSdQpztGWhOnPfSVzlKtnThKcq e3+eYG8LsY92EBSZc2NxaIQchkh2Za1exyosCQ+2Q9blvdgUENxqY+vZG67JN5zeRbKTepb3m k9RR3oTOlE3vpQOgQ12FOYr3iQlrXpSCyZSPPtVH+B9s/Z5XeVFpbsBh89eHmEwxI5kytbnav aZvaoaNVMgjZz6oRaI+L1+dvCM3GMKrkC6CEpSBQSnlTwjiwdG6O+mnZJJ+KRVF2XgeJxjl/w hH3ofg6 Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:14:34 -0000 On 2017-03-12 10:06, Peter Cordell wrote: > ... >> This exact issue just came up in a media type review, where someone >> specified a charset parameter because they weren't aware of this >> algorithm. >> >> It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. > > > Although it does need slightly more detail to take into account > endian-ness in the case of UTF-16 and -32. > ... Does anybody recall why we removed : > 3. Encoding > > JSON text SHALL be encoded in Unicode. The default encoding is > UTF-8. > > Since the first two characters of a JSON text will always be ASCII > characters [RFC0020], it is possible to determine whether an octet > stream is UTF-8, UTF-16 (BE or LE), or UTF-32 (BE or LE) by looking > at the pattern of nulls in the first four octets. > > 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE > 00 xx 00 xx UTF-16BE > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > xx 00 xx 00 UTF-16LE > xx xx xx xx UTF-8 ? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Mar 12 05:11:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C48B1293EB; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 05:11:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3hYilvbTrdP; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 05:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A8BD128DF6; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 05:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QBVHP8004000PMAR@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QBQBR8XOKG0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 05:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01QBVHP5YAYE0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 04:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:09:46 +0100" <9F2F2116-4985-4561-BFD3-24B374E4C4ED@tzi.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> <9F2F2116-4985-4561-BFD3-24B374E4C4ED@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , IETF , secdir@ietf.org, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com, "json@ietf.org" , Julian Reschke , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 12:11:45 -0000 > On 11 Mar 2017, at 16:41, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote: > > > > It would be very helpful to have this text in the RFC. > That would be a regression. On the contrary - what you have now is incomplete if not actually broken, and this completes/fixes it. You have a specification that says (a) JSON can be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 and that (b) That no charset parameter is needed to distinguish the charset and moreover one has "no effect". But you don't explain how why this is the the case, or what compliant implementation do to determine the charset. If you believe clarifying this is problemtic in some way, you need to explain why. > A better change would be to remove the fiction that JSON exists in UTF-16 or > UTF-32 forms. That's of course another way to fix the problem. But it's a far more significant change, and I have to wonder if there is a consensus to do it. Personally, I have no preference as to the approach that's used. But moving forward as-is is really not acceptable. Ned From nobody Sun Mar 12 08:31:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C20126BF6; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yKfHguuWtDsQ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10C3D129509; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2CFVhYC020320; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:31:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vh4jW01q0zDHvr; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:31:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:31:42 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511025502.207779-be1eff5230d4761fb1f26c2a4fa3d8de Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38DEEE0A-EE2C-4ADA-9D7A-9DBBAEACB77E@tzi.org> References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , Ned Freed , IETF , Peter Cordell , secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 15:31:52 -0000 On 12 Mar 2017, at 10:14, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Does anybody recall why we removed = : I seem to remember that the advice simply is no longer working since = JSON was extended from 4627 to 7159. Instead of trying to come up with = an updated algorithm, the WG recognized that this is not a real-world = problem. If 7159bis is supposed to be an Internet Standard, it should focus on = the variants that actually interoperate. Re-encoding JSON into UTF-16 = (or UTF-32) is not really interoperable with today=E2=80=99s = implementations*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten *) (Given the large number of JSON implementations, I don=E2=80=99t = doubt you will find two implementations that do interoperate on this. = It is not the widely interoperable =E2=80=9CJSON=E2=80=9D thing, = though.) 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Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:07:52 +0000 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:07:40 +0000 Message-ID: Importance: normal From: Elwyn Davies To: Peter Cordell , Ned Freed , Julian Reschke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--_com.samsung.android.email_4565109410242090" Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:38:12 -0000 ----_com.samsung.android.email_4565109410242090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 KHdpdGggaGFsZiBhIEdlbi1hcnQgaGF0IG9uLi4uKQpEb2VzIHRoZSBXRyByZWFsbHkgd2FudCB0 byByZXZpc2l0IHRoZSBhbmd1aXNoZWQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgdGhhdCByZXN1bHRlZCBpbiB0aGUg Y2hhbmdlcyB0byBTZWN0aW9uIDguMSBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWpzb24tcmZjNDYyN2JpcyBiZXR3 ZWVuIHZlcnNpb25zIDA3IGFuZCAwOCBiYWNrIGluIGxhdGUgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjAxMz8KU2VlwqBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2pzb24vY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMjA1 My5odG1sIGFuZCBtYW55LCBtYW55IG1lc3NhZ2VzIGJlb3JlIHRoaXMuCkNoZWVycyxFbHd5bgoK ClNlbnQgZnJvbSBTYW1zdW5nIHRhYmxldC4KLS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0t LS0tLUZyb206IFBldGVyIENvcmRlbGwgPHBldGVqc29uQGNvZGFsb2dpYy5jb20+IERhdGU6IDEy LzAzLzIwMTcgIDA5OjA2ICAoR01UKzAwOjAwKSBUbzogTmVkIEZyZWVkIDxuZWQuZnJlZWRAbXJv Y2hlay5jb20+LCBKdWxpYW4gUmVzY2hrZSA8anVsaWFuLnJlc2Noa2VAZ214LmRlPiBDYzogZHJh ZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uYmlzLXJmYzcxNTliaXMuYWxsQGlldGYub3JnLCBKb2huIENvd2FuIDxjb3dh bkBjY2lsLm9yZz4sIGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmcsIHNlY2RpckBpZXRmLm9yZywganNvbkBpZXRmLm9y ZywgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsgPGthZHVrQG1pdC5lZHU+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSnNvbl0gc2Vj ZGlyIHJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWpzb25iaXMtcmZjNzE1OWJpcy0wMyAKT24gMTEvMDMv MjAxNyAxNTo0MSwgTmVkIEZyZWVkIHdyb3RlOgo+PiBPbiAyMDE3LTAzLTExIDAzOjA4LCBKb2hu IENvd2FuIHdyb3RlOgo+PiA+Cj4+ID4gT24gVGh1LCBNYXIgOSwgMjAxNyBhdCAxMjo1MyBBTSwg QmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsgPGthZHVrQG1pdC5lZHUKPj4gPiA8bWFpbHRvOmthZHVrQG1pdC5lZHU+ PiB3cm90ZToKPj4gPgo+PiA+wqDCoMKgwqAgSWYgdGhhdCdzIHdoYXQncyBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBo YXBwZW4sIGl0IHNob3VsZCBwcm9iYWJseSBiZSBtb3JlCj4+ID7CoMKgwqDCoCBjbGVhciwgeWVz LsKgIChCdXQgYXJlbid0IHRoZXJlIHRleHRzIHRoYXQgaGF2ZSB2YWxpZAo+PiBpbnRlcnByZXRh dGlvbnMKPj4gPsKgwqDCoMKgIGluIG11bHRpcGxlIGVuY29kaW5ncz8pCj4+ID4KPj4gPgo+PiA+ IE5vdCBpZiB0aGUgY29udGVudCBpcyB3ZWxsLWZvcm1lZCBKU09OIGFuZCB0aGUgb25seSBwb3Nz aWJsZSBlbmNvZGluZ3MKPj4gPiBhcmUgVVRGLTgsIFVURi0xNiwgYW5kIFVURi0zMi7CoCBJdCBz dWZmaWNlcyB0byBleGFtaW5lIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBmb3VyCj4+ID4gYnl0ZXMgb2YgdGhlIGlucHV0 LsKgIElmIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBubyBOVUwgYnl0ZXMgaW4gdGhlIGZpcnN0IGZvdXIgYnl0ZXMsCj4+ ID4gaXQgaXMgVVRGLTg7IGlmIHRoZXJlIGFyZSB0d28gTlVMIGJ5dGVzLCBpdCBpcyBVVEYtMTY7 IGlmIHRoZXJlIGFyZQo+PiA+IHRocmVlIE5VTCBieXRlcywgaXQgaXMgVVRGLTMyLsKgIFRoaXMg d29ya3MgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgZ3JhbW1hciByZXF1aXJlcwo+PiA+IHRoZSBmaXJzdCBjaGFyYWN0 ZXIgdG8gYmUgaW4gdGhlIEFTQ0lJIHJlcGVydG9pcmUsIGFuZCB0aGUgTlVMCj4+ID4gKmNoYXJh Y3RlciogKFUrMDAwMCkgaXMgbm90IGFsbG93ZWQgYXQgYWxsLgo+Cj4+IEdvb2QgZXhwbGFuYXRp b24uIE1heWJlIHRoZSBzcGVjIHNob3VsZCBpbmNsdWRlIGl0Lgo+Cj4gKzEKPgo+IFRoaXMgZXhh Y3QgaXNzdWUganVzdCBjYW1lIHVwIGluIGEgbWVkaWEgdHlwZSByZXZpZXcsIHdoZXJlIHNvbWVv bmUKPiBzcGVjaWZpZWQgYSBjaGFyc2V0IHBhcmFtZXRlciBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgd2VyZW4ndCBh d2FyZSBvZiB0aGlzIGFsZ29yaXRobS4KPgo+IEl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHZlcnkgaGVscGZ1bCB0byBo YXZlIHRoaXMgdGV4dCBpbiB0aGUgUkZDLgoKCkFsdGhvdWdoIGl0IGRvZXMgbmVlZCBzbGlnaHRs eSBtb3JlIGRldGFpbCB0byB0YWtlIGludG8gYWNjb3VudCAKZW5kaWFuLW5lc3MgaW4gdGhlIGNh c2Ugb2YgVVRGLTE2IGFuZCAtMzIuCgpUaGUgWE1MIHNwZWMgbWF5IG9mZmVyIHNvbWUgZXhhbXBs ZSB0ZXh0OgoKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnL1RSLzIwMDgvUkVDLXhtbC0yMDA4MTEyNi8jc2Vj LWd1ZXNzaW5nCgpQZXRlIENvcmRlbGwKQ29kYWxvZ2ljIEx0ZApSZWFkICYgd3JpdGUgWE1MIGlu IEMrKywgaHR0cDovL3d3dy54bWwyY3BwLmNvbQoK ----_com.samsung.android.email_4565109410242090 Content-Type: text/html; 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Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aHxwCLL0wakQ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E161128B37; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LhTjQ-1cROm21uBk-00mZwW; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:23:22 +0100 To: Elwyn Davies , Peter Cordell , Ned Freed References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:23:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ONAqVCTvpdU/oTq78wPt92ZoUiWczEgP+MlfZwRy2qEVtlFKnSA p1ebcexiZx5Nc33PxzOMmpeICWFJvTXl86sY0vvwt9PTFS+DUL+tJgSenbqqqo9ipcxUCL1 0e3g72J030txLwaop68Lkut4jNUgh07fOUumSc3YVIrWbNOmekZmYCCVPmIRBt8KO3hRSiG mQeKnrCNdT9s75Usbs0Eg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:8bWtMcdviHI=:tsV1/zi7YPzEWA9zPU02wZ Qn1QQMA1Z/V6Mz3s/tbuyoK6NNu1n+W26wyFligSGhq4+k4X2nA0AgTHGTQwR5ZF1ZEtwYuw4 S8boytoF9IFmUPBxR0vai/hWrjQi8xLTHhz+j7tC1gu7u8T6rSIfKiXk3T5XWUhZYlkF3mSWM RUtU4hFfy//NIS+ACroOVat2vGwtC1m2rPDHYB4m8wYeo+dJDV/uydazEXi2jGIV8QNgYfjCn vxIYkAenSBlZw1SFClmBg08nHLVnFQUt1Yo55OrTieABa/otwjCfuqpiWoRPwfu1idEz86y+0 4L7qRu4DOqYoxH3dB3YktoqG07UfI3Kp6k0P+PcMxxK9qMfrpU3vkpF5evyV9o/8Giznjuh8m P4lkM2heiorEoL4Ozr8hHnD/prZKKjFWQAwMNNy/okguAkeylTBE9RTNY1qBXplLTJOIz1auZ zvaifaa9tyUmQUXnCZQvFGCqJYr8pxiYgklSNhci8MCbagQpK60P+/8c5e+eHBD/k++9eaCM1 rHOzvU6YS1g5aUNFJJSGXyRU+Cn0DzzoDMdQ4GUMn6MwqMGUI8GvT5/cAHxEyj/D/9SdRa2dL 2Pi2mqYAQjAg3ffv3w38YxeICfGsXtQAPkBtlQe/AmS1WHl5baN59jaYWI+n9gz/YeCi9x1g9 3L8fyByb7d/lXHI6fl30pdEJIgUqkzctd4V2GoUoyb2qSJr0t3HrVhkj8Pm88MuH522KRFATH DilpeNRGsu7km+PB+2m0rEfY9APvetxg6V8ZI9kAAZP7eMW8RmZ4dj1XLK5TTkpZMfd+N/2LE 4NRozLK Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:23:52 -0000 On 2017-03-13 00:07, Elwyn Davies wrote: > (with half a Gen-art hat on...) > > Does the WG really want to revisit the anguished discussions that > resulted in the changes to Section 8.1 of draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis > between versions 07 and 08 back in late November 2013? > > See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg02053.html and > many, many messages beore this. > > Cheers, > Elwyn No, but on the other hand, we should acknowledge that apparently the text both about what's mandatory and how auto detection works is not as clear as it should. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 01:15:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFC512954F; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 01:14:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7MoIEE3uTZNk; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 01:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B308C12954B; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 01:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LtmK9-1c4cIa29Jt-011E0q; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:14:21 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann References: <20170308014823.GF30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> <38DEEE0A-EE2C-4ADA-9D7A-9DBBAEACB77E@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:14:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38DEEE0A-EE2C-4ADA-9D7A-9DBBAEACB77E@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:fWQpqIOlZcKxDu5xBlzvlzJnn26z6FzeULN6WCf50r/8/Yne2mh e1MkUm3aEJWfG+K79cVEwYHhM3XjF2TfUTPgXvUjnOeTVppMGmk6GTqMr2pfgXTqycuBp8h J1luWn3ohP+H8RICiE6aBNp7v3wddMcHfr38VppEp9K3D1OqZNX48juJL63oeofujQV5T7N 4WU42vS1URl/lOweYEoaA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:xdE/QCy07zU=:V99Oi0COQu3ylkgTUKN2Su rVXu6hlj0Lz1UbszMqWHJB37Rx9tWvBY2+yt3AjFS9+OYxQX6NUzD3ydpKafeOPfAm4myFyVc XTUJJnko3S7ImVTW7G+zfPx5euYz7EfYvGkAH1UtZd0ci4I2uYwIWfC4HBzUH+Y9A/mbQfCPj TfQ/jH5WdzafW0KMyTnC3V6z+sfT2An/9RPfFeFfe0cQfVMFaTvgAC1WZVeJBMPqMgpGN6kdJ Do9i8zYD/0LzmUbcKft/x0dkwHqfavOFhKIC37xNVVvFlrUpZMbjxRMtUzPVZpSq4dDGooi2b F/TlYtWgtk0YJ3FURoiH7EbwJ0bp3JeCqskRVfzNr9OBMucRLeNIWfr219dEQI0FZL9/9IjEY P8XWchbf76hjVCcyj0V1m9JTkcJtVTqFX+kCJGZzriRWyYe8ZlD0/fYn/IKPAIdCcNntVMwZ6 PDRycNWw1+JvIQVTcznQaimPTXNfR5/YLlB621IBjygSS/0QZfwk/jHfD5K1ij2+yRGNy1tvG sG2t+J5g02FxuFFptNTjNXHM5XBxHxAakbA7x/xdqtpaRmCbgTTobxxJ923rXDlcODTUw0fbV EtMMDYthnkPEvKtmWQvFlNt4Iz86aNhmY39UFh7QFohdM5g4k5Qy6cd1DtqeyE/VuFdLD2LOY yOewJvJsUv8Myg0KZKliiIqY03QReq3qBM3WkF8jRsMGpREFRJrrzDLvbV6SwoWljcKQUItHP 72/AmhRmbdDOWN/uL2E7GyWY62CookgZk+Tw6DoHgMXIO2+dmeWp/6O30DfoUT6ewiyxEhIQt FQVTzW9 Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , Ned Freed , IETF , Peter Cordell , secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:14:57 -0000 On 2017-03-12 16:31, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 12 Mar 2017, at 10:14, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> Does anybody recall why we removed : > > I seem to remember that the advice simply is no longer working since JSON was extended from 4627 to 7159. Instead of trying to come up with an updated algorithm, the WG recognized that this is not a real-world problem. > ... So the changes in RFC 7159 allow top-level strings, so we can't rely on the first *two* characters being US-ASCII. But we *can* rely on the first one being US-ASCII, no? So the following should still be correct: > Since the first character of a JSON text will always be an ASCII > character [RFC0020], it is possible to determine whether an octet > stream is UTF-8, UTF-16 (BE or LE), or UTF-32 (BE or LE) by looking > at the pattern of nulls in the first four octets. > > 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE > 00 xx xx xx UTF-16BE > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > xx 00 xx xx UTF-16LE > xx xx xx xx UTF-8 Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 08:40:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6070129545; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 00:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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It looks to me as if at the time of the above message in the WG, the chairs were successful in presenting a consensus, probably at a stage when the participants in the discussion where getting tired. It seems that when put in the wider context of the IETF, that compromise now looks somewhat shaky. My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the following: >>>> JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>> to something like the following: >>>> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that the intended recipients can read them. >>>> That should then go together with a MIME registration that only lists UTF-8. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Mar 13 08:56:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E16129432; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5Czki8HfRA5; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F381270B4; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:56:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DFuY68002705; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhjCk4LlrzDGt5; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:34 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:33 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511113393.671415-a4a40423d1a75bc00add897e6d0ad1b2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3DFA075D-3F19-48B3-821D-79EA3CB4A908@tzi.org> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , IETF , secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:56:40 -0000 +1000 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 13 Mar 2017, at 08:51, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 > On 2017/03/13 15:23, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-13 00:07, Elwyn Davies wrote: >=20 >>> Does the WG really want to revisit the anguished discussions that >>> resulted in the changes to Section 8.1 of draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis >>> between versions 07 and 08 back in late November 2013? >>>=20 >>> See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg02053.html = and >>> many, many messages beore this. >=20 >> No, but on the other hand, we should acknowledge that apparently the >> text both about what's mandatory and how auto detection works is not = as >> clear as it should. >=20 > It looks to me as if at the time of the above message in the WG, the = chairs were successful in presenting a consensus, probably at a stage = when the participants in the discussion where getting tired. >=20 > It seems that when put in the wider context of the IETF, that = compromise now looks somewhat shaky. >=20 > My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the = following: >=20 >>>>>=20 > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>>>=20 >=20 > to something like the following: >=20 >>>>>=20 > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. >=20 > There are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in > UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. >>>>>=20 >=20 > That should then go together with a MIME registration that only lists = UTF-8. >=20 > Regards, Martin. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >=20 From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:08:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D041297BD for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0_WjJ8I1jpc for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay2-2.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com (mailrelay2-2.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com [104.37.35.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45A571297BC for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-HalOne-Cookie: 1f4312dc1e1547aeaeedc47e66f3cdb426d1b9e7 X-HalOne-ID: ec0903d5-0805-11e7-a84d-549f35fe7f6e Received: from [10.86.247.37] (unknown [198.135.0.233]) by mailrelay2-1.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id ec0903d5-0805-11e7-a84d-549f35fe7f6e; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:58:41 +0000 (UTC) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= , Julian Reschke , Elwyn Davies , Peter Cordell , Ned Freed References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> From: Stefan Hagen Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:58:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:08:05 -0700 Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:59:51 -0000 Yes, tired is a good match && I second the proposed change. "Stefan" On 13/03/17 08:51, Martin J. Drst wrote: > On 2017/03/13 15:23, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-13 00:07, Elwyn Davies wrote: > >>> Does the WG really want to revisit the anguished discussions that >>> resulted in the changes to Section 8.1 of draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis >>> between versions 07 and 08 back in late November 2013? >>> >>> See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg02053.html and >>> many, many messages beore this. > >> No, but on the other hand, we should acknowledge that apparently the >> text both about what's mandatory and how auto detection works is not as >> clear as it should. > > It looks to me as if at the time of the above message in the WG, the > chairs were successful in presenting a consensus, probably at a stage > when the participants in the discussion where getting tired. > > It seems that when put in the wider context of the IETF, that compromise > now looks somewhat shaky. > > My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the > following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>>> > > to something like the following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. > > There are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in > UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. >>>>> > > That should then go together with a MIME registration that only lists > UTF-8. > > Regards, Martin. > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:18:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AA0129509 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:18:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6rBiXxW786h for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay2.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com (mailrelay2.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com [104.37.35.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12A94129522 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-HalOne-Cookie: 9db20b3b3eef183271b7f381933937b44264d427 X-HalOne-ID: 601bc2a5-0806-11e7-b39d-549f35fe4221 Received: from [10.86.247.37] (unknown [198.135.0.233]) by mailrelay1.pub.mailoutpod1-wdc1.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 601bc2a5-0806-11e7-b39d-549f35fe4221; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:01:58 +0000 (UTC) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> From: Stefan Hagen Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:01:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:18:05 -0000 Yes, tired is a good match && I second the proposed change. "Stefan" On 13/03/17 08:51, Martin J. Drst wrote: > On 2017/03/13 15:23, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-13 00:07, Elwyn Davies wrote: > >>> Does the WG really want to revisit the anguished discussions that >>> resulted in the changes to Section 8.1 of draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis >>> between versions 07 and 08 back in late November 2013? >>> >>> See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg02053.html and >>> many, many messages beore this. > >> No, but on the other hand, we should acknowledge that apparently the >> text both about what's mandatory and how auto detection works is not as >> clear as it should. > > It looks to me as if at the time of the above message in the WG, the > chairs were successful in presenting a consensus, probably at a stage > when the participants in the discussion where getting tired. > > It seems that when put in the wider context of the IETF, that compromise > now looks somewhat shaky. > > My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the > following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>>> > > to something like the following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. > > There are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in > UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. >>>>> > > That should then go together with a MIME registration that only lists > UTF-8. > > Regards, Martin. > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:40:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779B712951F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G4xjH5bJXH0K for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 152801295B3 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27794 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2017 16:26:18 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 13 Mar 2017 16:26:18 +0000 To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= , Ned Freed References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:33:33 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:40:18 -0000 On 13/03/2017 07:51, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the > following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>>> > > to something like the following: > >>>>> > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. > > There are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in > UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. >>>>> My only thought is to perhaps reflect that JSON isn't only transmitted, and JSON can be used for file based configuration etc, (even if this isn't strictly IETFs concern). So perhaps s/sender/encoder/ in the last sentence, plus a few other tweaks yielding something like: There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32 [UNICODE]). JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if the encoder is sure that the intended recipients can read them. Pete. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd http://json-content-rules.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- From linuxwolf@outer-planes.net Mon Mar 13 10:54:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C511129992 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lh2QxOW5fh6S for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x242.google.com (mail-ot0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12A8E129986 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x242.google.com with SMTP id i1so17066332ota.3 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=wEbeRnfrEJpJCcOfo7g1t8EaTyJZIPY3KDqJZdcUzPk=; b=Zfif2koxCi00cBJulqzDvjWpIOzV9L6euL24Av4Ijo7ZS0Yrh6WNOQ0SAAnGyJDDuw 8LjBlfWv/IJzDEG7R/vDl680L9/iTmSB6UIAOltXBFJ1fWFLplm007xGNF6Tt/knN0Sc 2vZTqob98VrdG8LSjFZ36EkN1PWsEqSm9SQ9y7Ee0vGYvx42Lx9UZKFXG9G+XMk28Fbb SO96WOt0b5eCalMBH+BqH2JmO7kqbNPK+maAF6rMDkrGL+3wqlpSqaGxHotkaEvxQTYA 0/cloTgwiL+xtRK1+6JNhOCnTDrF3fyiAzmWyv8g/0H/kbjqCKgq+QK3cYCbLo2JokTc zHjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=wEbeRnfrEJpJCcOfo7g1t8EaTyJZIPY3KDqJZdcUzPk=; b=r21EWuMTkqh5u4jbSw4geJ5FoVZDxsBQTNOeeOsobac6xJ9N8M9RN6uzdtc5kN5RsL salhmqqxQrWU+Z8rGxkp9uv5A2wMJV05VisXzLCkkTbuKjsGd4oxv1ViOlEhe5Y1XIgi xkTvoYTnkSYDIF3nrHXg8VQkYSH/zYXysqkzLlKuBLX17kxYsvRTLEKcSVyaAwrYPXRe vtI5pCgSSKUHtcK5Sx/djg4mZSuqwqX6nDuLOMEvCg5HeRnmPP/HH5UjtCyqP/K+sQvB 7W6iaX+0vqdW50KcK/ZvXJD9XrjYBC72RYqVxctaBY7P3SLimRgAVABSR1kYPwhsjhCN MKHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lOxVEJAaC1OSnwVxkfKJG1Lg1gJPZtl4mBABjAuniK/+bdYO4Ty0PsULdtXufd2A== X-Received: by 10.157.84.10 with SMTP id j10mr16695392oth.257.1489427673447; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g10sm986961oic.16.2017.03.13.10.54.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:54:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Cordell , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= , Ned Freed References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:54:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3VcLRe0FKbLrdelu3P9lctLR4SQJkGBjp" Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:56:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --3VcLRe0FKbLrdelu3P9lctLR4SQJkGBjp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="P4ru045D3n6aVvw0WOfe56vt1MQRTpI0D"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: Peter Cordell , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= , Ned Freed Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> --P4ru045D3n6aVvw0WOfe56vt1MQRTpI0D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/13 10:33, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 13/03/2017 07:51, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the >> following: >> >>>>>> >> JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] >> (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that ar= e >> encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be >> read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there a= re >> many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other >> encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >>>>>> >> >> to something like the following: >> >>>>>> >> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] >> (Section 3). JSON texts that are >> encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be >> read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. >> >> There are >> many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other >> encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in >> UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that >> the intended recipients can read them. >>>>>> >=20 > My only thought is to perhaps reflect that JSON isn't only transmitted,= > and JSON can be used for file based configuration etc, (even if this > isn't strictly IETFs concern). So perhaps s/sender/encoder/ in the las= t > sentence, plus a few other tweaks yielding something like: >=20 > There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts > in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32 [UNICODE]). JSON > text MAY be encoded in other encodings if the encoder is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. >=20 > Pete. /me doffs hat I like this change myself. /me dons hat As I recall, the table was removed mostly because the vast majority of implementations did not support any encoding other than UTF-8, and no one (that I recall) reported implementing the detection table. - m&m Matthew A. Miller < http://goo.gl/LM55L > --P4ru045D3n6aVvw0WOfe56vt1MQRTpI0D-- --3VcLRe0FKbLrdelu3P9lctLR4SQJkGBjp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYxtzXAAoJEOz0ck4QngW72TMH/jkoqrQRrPao/VDYEP1PGOkc BWzlZ0KS/UXrD2NEe0yx79A7iJaLeoLo0qLqdOXN/YJz8Cxp/iFOzAD2kFWe9hKf 82qb/vVqUSprF5gaLB3PhQ1Jdk0nLZPxR9CeuKY94atv4diV84amhkcpUpVe1Wua OGvmstik2raeic/5eauMsX6dFgW1mifTbCKvBRlrH4nGQ7ovor+eqoua5DC72avI t4u6buv/iLXzIZqqBj3Y2hl9meXq4KaqB024fPc25+eRps/8o9+izUFCXBAu56pA 2i3Y+YqaOktXWxaClIEJ9zCeH69sKQ8osuq7lLuJ53Ub2jbkVsFAES0N5JiWg9Y= =jVS2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3VcLRe0FKbLrdelu3P9lctLR4SQJkGBjp-- From nobody Mon Mar 13 11:15:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92D71299C0; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ussgnInrpS35; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57C891299B5; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE498A04E8C1; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:15:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=7GhDPymm6L2zak 9IaA5N6WJc+Qc=; b=jB4Jyp+tWcRj2Fh7/yBUtOOCEbjlAkS9QujnRvCAIH4YGK 1CLMWElg6YQ+5GvSJJyLTjmUmjMPu0g356Z/MRzDFvshdiG0wZCbI7B1jqr2PZ1N iKOmKhfyiVgOcBgBI4n5RtnhWsHBbNY8vdT2ZiNQpyCyQY/oKKP60mEJmRyK0= Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E4346A04E8C3; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:15:34 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20170313181534.GD543@localhost> References: <382aa5c8-c977-b24d-4d19-251257833b00@gmx.de> <456b4234-0d94-1033-507c-710878bb5159@gmx.de> <20170309055348.GL30306@kduck.kaduk.org> <01QBU8WJOCUO0003XB@mauve.mrochek.com> <6d97dee7-7cf3-9142-aacf-f2ca4909103d@codalogic.com> <38DEEE0A-EE2C-4ADA-9D7A-9DBBAEACB77E@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , Ned Freed , IETF , Peter Cordell , secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [Json] [secdir] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:15:40 -0000 On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 09:14:16AM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > So the changes in RFC 7159 allow top-level strings, so we can't rely on the > first *two* characters being US-ASCII. But we *can* rely on the first one > being US-ASCII, no? Correct. If one OR two bytes of the first four are NULs, then the encoding is UTF-16 (or something else or invalid): > So the following should still be correct: > > > Since the first character of a JSON text will always be an ASCII > > character [RFC0020], it is possible to determine whether an octet > > stream is UTF-8, UTF-16 (BE or LE), or UTF-32 (BE or LE) by looking > > at the pattern of nulls in the first four octets. > > > > 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE > > 00 xx xx xx UTF-16BE > > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > > xx 00 xx xx UTF-16LE > > xx xx xx xx UTF-8 Count the number of NULs in the first four bytes: - if zero -> UTF-8 - if one or two -> UTF-16 - if three -> UTF-32 Nico -- From nobody Mon Mar 13 12:08:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B60E12945C; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id crgrWPBgPlOC; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 875BC129A94; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DJ7vNH006994; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:07:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhnSY3CyjzDGxN; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:07:57 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:07:56 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511124876.759257-e2d29302f2c69dd400e93e811df86b3f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D76CB96-8AB6-4547-99C1-54490EC83DEF@tzi.org> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> To: "Matthew A. Miller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, IETF , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:08:03 -0000 On 13 Mar 2017, at 18:54, Matthew A. Miller = wrote: >=20 > no > one (that I recall) reported implementing the detection table. There even was one that implemented something for UTF-16/32: Jackson. The author said: "Most other libraries just punt the problem by requiring caller to pass in Reader = that does byte->char decoding=E2=80=9D (He did not say whether his code was ever exercised outside of his test = cases :-) He also mentioned that, by contrast, most XML libraries do implement = auto-detection (as they should). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 12:52:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D653129481; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:51:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QydQ3BhgZX0V; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA194129453; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lr46Z-1cII7f2Pwp-00eZ4m; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:51:28 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , Peter Cordell , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= , Ned Freed References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:51:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:1sAicka5ZreYlgL3dmOPevOFdNLbwwASwmL592XDQhUODyR/9j0 Z55OW11qeLclxeRQ4IWhQ2Lj7++AsU3bgKXrF7nw0gKYcwY2PlHKhnSlOsNrQLr/Ufaw4Xw Lqzef12hAraov6tGWzoD5YGoLXh+u7p/VG5HBiA2nUI2sPXoEq7VdpIjVwurCDu5hPqNRbI MiKYPP4TY8iLye5i/ZScw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:m5fVRV6aOxM=:mtb318PYufka5wgDsdyaUC eoNLxhXxxmYFhcl0NDb7S+8D6eT1UiOGiftQ5cdpld/iZdYjjJAorO4yZBFI9hnkjHolfVuZa MxQA252CDYr++/5XYRhiCB0QnorN35A35HRRCXqyxMxE1xvynoPiQOOerwFS/aoyOoCi96M5m 3Ex4N0gW8YBkk9uOHUqw9gXIdL/jIwXVWrVuMUximSJYN7+bBmc3s6dwzoG6HGMqYw7fW6IwW yAo1nG6P5JTLIorVh04H5JWVNTVuHx49UDynvPddYbaVYaN1P5nD7j0KZN2vXFMlr5/cc/V4X aiJWajTjfXj0M/QNEb3yNZED2+esf6UDMxIiM6WG4isW/jyC2XTB4ZFMQ/kIcGKHWRbilHoHH Bfhb7CgUGvA38j0c/mmSH/a6/OpkT2YIheXaI03zxh4NhrQ9srdqtiiOYWqlIS4UDZmJvFBjX gkOPIdAJ7hn8AN9RiHps6Ynp6gHY4lfUZxVVItxLqr9aOcX9eJZg8MJq8EV0UqTc7Q0J+GObF YEcu1oEmqLJQt96S28Vnlblx2InUIWLZ7fFC1wEs8OSZjhwqb/sBTdf8Dc3M8z2aJ0j+ymx2s 8pVNbw891MBoUqTG/CWkzl42hVbAP2dr2Gwxl8CTUDPxTYGV7i7gDDv3bTO9esLtlAJ960/sA WYswXD+sScHd4tJfiRI99npB1I5XBkqI1W23anCaE4G2jLQWCys6iWZuymTea4OSgdN3xegQz xQU8mLDSUI0fGC4F9yvhQNx603pCJlln6nNGFTBWsthJmqntQVL34Uwvk2Lb3BVwExONCEo1z gLqqcyx Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:51:59 -0000 On 2017-03-13 18:54, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > ... > /me doffs hat > > I like this change myself. > > /me dons hat > > As I recall, the table was removed mostly because the vast majority of > implementations did not support any encoding other than UTF-8, and no > one (that I recall) reported implementing the detection table. > ... Well, if we allow UTF-16 and UTF-32 - even if we discourage their use - we should say how to detect those... Alternatively we could forbid them, but that would be a normative change from RFC 7159. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 12:57:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790DE129AE7; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d-Xc_lINaLJl; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6683812949D; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DJv1dH015347; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:57:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhpY91p64zDGy0; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:57:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:57:00 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511127819.861928-19cd0691562856b3248a975cd733437d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , IETF , secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:57:06 -0000 On 13 Mar 2017, at 20:51, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Well, if we allow UTF-16 and UTF-32 - even if we discourage their use = - we should say how to detect those... Consistency is the hobgoblin of the little minds. (Apparently, not having that nonsense in there did not hurt for 7159? If people want to implement something useless and cannot figure this = stuff out, should we help them?) Putting back any form of apparent support for UTF-16 and UTF-32 is a = regression. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 13:35:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06495129A23; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLDoGf9Vj3q1; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D824C1299E4; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B2BA04E8C1; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=jpyGA/EMeqfrnRqFPCK1jLr5zCA=; b=sgf77j1lAKQ lELAPDBqTnWvBXPyxP0WR9BE4/ilDTQFQqFC95q6KZ0EjD4t2qwE3uEirJVSvdj4 vuyHOpM/4dggjoXnamJJ4yDXNYNR5Z6GL9qz8wvr+6QiBnp4+RxbkGTE74JhNHZ4 Td3WbEpwZltfElSPV7N/ZotAPfBi8nVg= Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a72.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8097AA000B32; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:36:29 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=2E_D=FCrst?= Message-ID: <20170313183628.GE543@localhost> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:35:46 -0700 Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, John Cowan , Ned Freed , ietf@ietf.org, Peter Cordell , secdir@ietf.org, Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" , Elwyn Davies Subject: Re: [Json] [secdir] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:37:21 -0000 On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 04:51:58PM +0900, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > My personal opinion is that we could try to fix this by changing the > following: >=20 > >>>> > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there ar= e > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). > >>>> >=20 > to something like the following: >=20 > >>>> > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. >=20 > There are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). JSON text MAY be encoded in > UTF-16 or UTF-32 [UNICODE] (Section 3) if the sender is sure that > the intended recipients can read them. > >>>> >=20 > That should then go together with a MIME registration that only lists U= TF-8. +1. I would restore the text from an older draft about how counting the number of NULs in the first four bytes can be used to determine which of UTF-8, 16, or 32 the text is encoded in, modified to avoid all talk of BOMs (which had no consensus): Implementors MAY count the number of ASCII NULs in the first four bytes of any JSON text to detect which of UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 the text is encoded in: - if the count is zero, then the text is encoded in UTF-8 - if the count is one or two, then the text is encoded in UTF-16 - if the count is three, then the text is encoded in UTF-32 This results from a) JSON texts having to start with an ASCII character, b) no unescaped NULs being allowed in JSON strings, and c) any type being allowed at the top-level, thus the first character may be a double-quote and the second may be any permissible, unescaped Unicode codepoint. An ASCII character requires a NUL-valued byte in UTF-16 encoding, three in UTF-32, and none in UTF-8. Note the "MAY". The idea is that we should be sending (and storing) JSON texts encoded in UTF-8 per the text I +1'ed above, so we shouldn't bother recommending or requiring the use of this UTF detection scheme. But there's no harm in describing it. See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg02053.html The encoding detection algorithm can be optimized a bit since if neither the first nor the second bytes are NUL-valued then the encoding must be UTF-8. The algorithm can also be combined with an understanding of byte ordering to detect encoding by looking only at the first two bytes in some cases, but whatever. ASIDE: I don't see any reason not to also include text discussing byte-order detection in the UTF-16 and UTF-32 cases, but I don't care very much about it, and given the prior lack of consensus for it, there's no need to relitigate that point now. Also, it's pretty obvious how to detect byte-order anyways, at least given the text on how to detect encoding: just looking at the first two bytes will tell you what the byte order is! If the first byte is zero-valued, then the byte order is big-endian, if the first is not zero-valued but the second is, then the byte order is little-endian, and if both, the first and second bytes are zero-valued, then the byte order is big-endian; if neither the first nor the second bytes are zero-valued then the encoding is UTF-8 and byte-order is irrelevant. Cheers, Nico --=20 From nobody Mon Mar 13 14:06:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967AF129A59 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4IIbOQhqJj6 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x241.google.com (mail-ot0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F0512942F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x241.google.com with SMTP id i1so17561186ota.3 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:from:subject:to:cc:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version; bh=FTv5hBe1776sDGut0zZXJcC38Jt1DVtjoL9JfpDQ1c0=; b=iXgzUU3H+6Ja1rRmsi63sJ5v8rVoSUYpFif2jnjVg96wlBIkPktDIJiLsopBvUTk0R mqUuqEKowpuPrHc/ZiyUwB5HJOb4NK2dA3AAlPNQbWcmqDX7PKIenPrVM8kZEhWyn2XJ 5xyCRRB/NXcp5AgDC2dninrmd+eMtEgoRX2lp8BZmCsX6MtAp6DjMR0AucKihvpsGA2s zTphQVxgjYQSa/1XJsL8dGQWkSGN93APSa7YH5RN58YuCKQ6kK88OxXQ0cAoh17t70zB UJinwckf+Y9NycbOfJvX0dtPPkGHX+d4TxBMQURfohIhUeMTclZ3Pqv3wkPH8ZSbN2LJ /Edw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:subject:to:cc:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version; bh=FTv5hBe1776sDGut0zZXJcC38Jt1DVtjoL9JfpDQ1c0=; b=lnjCgr0bbQjwPtIUrDH4AwLGVQIxwjWksqTI72JFAS1KL+hvpxh+cG5Lcg2x358vzI yY4rjtZWX2K4+M6QGmpU17dkaKyF3OME3O3PdgArVLwOzmuF4uPBy/MkSZacXmxupCky 5qViThKaS4FCD7anZHji/L+EQwQVB/OaX+PeXg6xKX5+T8K7VVpVxVk64gbJ8PYqdtKK s/eIenOKkzG3Lhpnh5mLrr55oW85taaZVpxejG07FT6pf2lkbmWF83fzS49SabsxFprc KPi0pF6PrdVK9VJoDlomAZTVjUv3NCzMk6rTV69Ev6gphWgpfk8Z+Q1wdm/G+xyVLnZk KQ6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1is9RgVXRj+VaCFSNaJ4YfmTslDhkvLGei9JM4THkc5bBFrlAr0TpP/SMXIkRf0w== X-Received: by 10.157.34.84 with SMTP id o78mr17271154ota.144.1489439174649; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n126sm8450669oia.18.2017.03.13.14.06.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller From: Matthew Miller To: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:06:13 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="K1eR3Gw34exKQ8RggkEejM6KdCFma9fkr" Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org Subject: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:06:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --K1eR3Gw34exKQ8RggkEejM6KdCFma9fkr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bpM68PVbXe0W1s6vUpT4tcDdQ5CpR08Ir"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthew Miller To: "json@ietf.org" Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org Message-ID: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> Subject: Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" --bpM68PVbXe0W1s6vUpT4tcDdQ5CpR08Ir Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello JSONbis, The security directorate review discussion has raised the issue of encoding detection. The original table from RFC 4627 was removed from RFC 7159 due to a lack of consensus. In this latest round, there have been a number of comments have been made supporting (and against) adding more guidance than is currently present. The chair asks for a call on the following from the working group: 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the encoding worthwhile? 2a) If such text is worthwhile, is the following proposed text from Nico Williams acceptable (to be appended to Section 8.1)? """ Implementors MAY count the number of ASCII NULs in the first four bytes of any JSON text to detect which of UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 the text is encoded in: - if the count is zero, then the text is encoded in UTF-8 - if the count is one or two, then the text is encoded in UTF-16 - if the count is three, then the text is encoded in UTF-32 This results from a) JSON texts having to start with an ASCII character, b) no unescaped NULs being allowed in JSON strings, and c) any type being allowed at the top-level, thus the first character may be a double-quote and the second may be any permissible, unescaped Unicode codepoint. An ASCII character requires a NUL-valued byte in UTF-16 encoding, three in UTF-32, and none in UTF-8. """ 2b) If such text is worthwhile but Nico's proposal is not worthwhile, what would be acceptable? Please respond by March 16. Thank you in advance, --=20 Matthew A. Miller JSONbis chair --bpM68PVbXe0W1s6vUpT4tcDdQ5CpR08Ir-- --K1eR3Gw34exKQ8RggkEejM6KdCFma9fkr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYxwnFAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7EzkIALJmzYE2dmi3xdScDCZdBPYw vmMOjMkRnFw2by+MPxcOZu2ePJWHL/sgzOtJAYuDfS6r33OIHvBTv9DzjAV4TtQS 9ulWdvLwxHqtSj4BlOEWa/ZPMot1vPDeHUj2CrOYs1YUtdfzRGkGquD+PJOz1amd wl77CV4nf0RTIj2g1SxwWzK53QF0FGiJp+dEDDW+6+JIweXuT26iGg12ju/hsYaw kvviViZ3KTk5G2YNY8vnKprNPPCZc2k27R6Q13gPA1FNECUTk9Welq/hRq7KklXU qEyGjU570uvCfEYcOOhtOdpcHzPMt8vikOvMPvfbZqbW4UqQXLBlAwvBWOtBi2I= =lA/D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --K1eR3Gw34exKQ8RggkEejM6KdCFma9fkr-- From nobody Mon Mar 13 14:12:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8872E129B31; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKRuymLlb77z; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0188A129B8A; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DLCAbO016077; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:12:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhrCt00MzzDGym; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:12:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:12:09 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511132328.720784-06aad7f5314970c3a36ebab486fc59c7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3B3F2181-6C5D-43C0-BCD9-8D4BA05E6C03@tzi.org> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> To: Matthew Miller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:12:14 -0000 For the record=E2=80=A6 > On 13 Mar 2017, at 22:06, Matthew Miller = wrote: >=20 > Hello JSONbis, >=20 > The security directorate review discussion has raised the issue of > encoding detection. The original table from RFC 4627 was removed from > RFC 7159 due to a lack of consensus. In this latest round, there have > been a number of comments have been made supporting (and against) = adding > more guidance than is currently present. >=20 > The chair asks for a call on the following from the working group: >=20 > 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the > encoding worthwhile? No, that would be a regression into maintaining the fiction that UTF-16 = and UTF-32 versions of JSON are being used in interchange. > 2a) If such text is worthwhile, is the following proposed text from = Nico > Williams acceptable (to be appended to Section 8.1)? >=20 > """ > Implementors MAY count the number of ASCII NULs in the first four > bytes of any JSON text to detect which of UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 > the text is encoded in: >=20 > - if the count is zero, then the text is encoded in UTF-8 > - if the count is one or two, then the text is encoded in UTF-16 > - if the count is three, then the text is encoded in UTF-32 >=20 > This results from a) JSON texts having to start with an ASCII > character, b) no unescaped NULs being allowed in JSON strings, and = c) > any type being allowed at the top-level, thus the first character = may > be a double-quote and the second may be any permissible, unescaped > Unicode codepoint. An ASCII character requires a NUL-valued byte in > UTF-16 encoding, three in UTF-32, and none in UTF-8. >=20 > =E2=80=9C"" Not sure if I=E2=80=99m allowed to note that after saying no above, but = not all JSON documents have four bytes. > 2b) If such text is worthwhile but Nico's proposal is not worthwhile, > what would be acceptable? Again, not worthwhile, but maybe it wouldn=E2=80=99t hurt to mention = that implementations that want to guard against erroneously encoded = input can detect ASCII NULs in the input and even use those to predict = whether the encoder was using one of the UTF-16s or one of the UTF-32s. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 14:50:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59089129BC5; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FdgCXy5Yx92Z; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F196129BBF; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MNqcR-1ctJYP2JvH-007SRE; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:50:42 +0100 To: Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:50:42 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:IYODodkWAhpivxZzUJz7Fq/dsV0P72/dtbjmzIEjWu3ndSbK3P7 DKA3UeDswl9ozVCvNxl8MHY9aPtOt3IHznDp/cEh6k2c94aEn7GQJx97ZBELbhCtEWWaV5g kYaMSC4Fci7ZFw0EwdWuLPDGe5d6VAOBYD+CODtdTGjeuGMr/hKQABMo/ltc05TRempilEZ YMs1FRZlL+7oK/JgsLqNg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:AvNnp00AbP4=:QaJgWshmXincql2N0dutrm k1Eb3KFPBCERvcKJNZcyfth/i63dYK3MsG5Na6gy9t5A64U1Xi/nGvlVqAfxmlgGQn9ODRXoa GsXvbIXrRcjfwJSWST4rHFuBwoo9SsAal4r8e95m0vC2gl7PlkH4d9VS9TsdXaUOPSDJjRsSM /7dE6+movJGv5svzAFySmog62ZvIDfgtULwUAn9YjrvC4BPphnW3I5zZxh2Afi+DmNDBO5lar FWGBJaSeoWTharZB0PXkO/ACLN6B+CPcrjoFY/QcNBHjUXULL1+3qIQgCiW3Nn1Xdlj7SB1i7 /xhttizOQbnLZ4Tnph7i3W42KNBg9+VjubgzxwnNT5Lf4DeHkNuovHmwOyHJnfuV9z1zrWda1 KWr025AYf1zcBljRMKHbYLzH1I+Lrb4HTCvfgPA/iXiCeFS4ml5orRYgx33ZQPhzbqaflZ8i/ +0tvBxXox2v7xV21NeVejBGfMu3853KPCjfOmZynLobDflAir+mGnu8IfUD61ULSdHvx77c0p Lx69q7htH8nYUDnQ+0BT9M6Bo7xhLPD2w974iZd6xl82W4SW4BgkZd/rghuOHcpqDppCL2OQ3 Oq6kgNqKiApaJCkvGdRQe/RwQdbHfII9PxIMlGaGfoP78dKm8cEcPCDPcgXrd6xVCvqAcCcur zmW1fobNrmuu2JgHbkUHsJX6LvvGq71VNiaCts6CK0QQIxkBpIaQ/e8y9K+oKmfq3mVN5DUxe eb3Sjh2oSYEaNCmqp3Gj2685zBA/ZIxn5X5N7ZHc5yNUEHGc5xCNB+//7q6BYKDlNsPckYTCS ag9yMMm Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:50:47 -0000 On 2017-03-13 22:06, Matthew Miller wrote: > Hello JSONbis, > > The security directorate review discussion has raised the issue of > encoding detection. The original table from RFC 4627 was removed from > RFC 7159 due to a lack of consensus. In this latest round, there have > been a number of comments have been made supporting (and against) adding > more guidance than is currently present. > > The chair asks for a call on the following from the working group: > > 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the > encoding worthwhile? Yes. > 2a) If such text is worthwhile, is the following proposed text from Nico > Williams acceptable (to be appended to Section 8.1)? > > """ > Implementors MAY count the number of ASCII NULs in the first four s/MAY/can/ > bytes of any JSON text to detect which of UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 > the text is encoded in: > > - if the count is zero, then the text is encoded in UTF-8 > - if the count is one or two, then the text is encoded in UTF-16 > - if the count is three, then the text is encoded in UTF-32 > > This results from a) JSON texts having to start with an ASCII > character, b) no unescaped NULs being allowed in JSON strings, and c) > any type being allowed at the top-level, thus the first character may > be a double-quote and the second may be any permissible, unescaped > Unicode codepoint. An ASCII character requires a NUL-valued byte in > UTF-16 encoding, three in UTF-32, and none in UTF-8. ...and add that if the number of octets is less than 4, it's UTF-8. > """ > 2b) If such text is worthwhile but Nico's proposal is not worthwhile, > what would be acceptable? > > Please respond by March 16. > ... I personally would prefer the table that I posted, as directly identifies byte ordering as well: > 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE > 00 xx 00 xx UTF-16BE > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > xx 00 xx 00 UTF-16LE > xx xx xx xx UTF-8 Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 14:51:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F252129477; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6VvGHGjp-jOJ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D99B129BD4; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D51A004B16; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8F5CA004B13; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:50:52 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20170313215051.GF543@localhost> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <3B3F2181-6C5D-43C0-BCD9-8D4BA05E6C03@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B3F2181-6C5D-43C0-BCD9-8D4BA05E6C03@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:51:17 -0000 On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 10:12:09PM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the > > encoding worthwhile? >=20 > No, that would be a regression into maintaining the fiction that > UTF-16 and UTF-32 versions of JSON are being used in interchange. I would support saying that JSON texts SHOULD be UTF-8. I might even support that they MUST be UTF-8, but I suspect there won't be consensus for that, though IF there is, then I agree with you. > Not sure if I=E2=80=99m allowed to note that after saying no above, but= not Why wouldn't you be? > all JSON documents have four bytes. True! The empty string at the top-level, with no whitespace around it, is a two-byte text when encoded in UTF-8. Indeed, just two bytes will do for some cases; at most four are needed. Byte order can be detected as well, also in two to four bytes, but byte order also is pointless to think about if UTF-8 were REQUIRED (which it isn't [yet]). Nico --=20 From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:15:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38264129B83; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V1MSW7zlvyIx; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D36B12986C; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99E7A004B16; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F727A004B13; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:15:06 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <20170313221505.GG543@localhost> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:15:19 -0000 On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 10:50:42PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > I personally would prefer the table that I posted, as directly identifies > byte ordering as well: > > > 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE > > 00 xx 00 xx UTF-16BE > > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > > xx 00 xx 00 UTF-16LE > > xx xx xx xx UTF-8 WFM. From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:19:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AB3129518; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PuuEGWSYlZig; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDBA0129415; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DMJ5a8007984; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:19:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhsj53j7YzDH0J; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:19:05 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:19:04 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511136343.892783-acde410def31fd1672266bed38043e9c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:19:12 -0000 On 13 Mar 2017, at 22:50, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > ...and add that if the number of octets is less than 4, it's UTF-8. No. (It=E2=80=99s not hard to get this right in a program, because you can = write unit tests. It is much harder to get this right in text. Let=E2=80=99s NOT write this text.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:23:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262CF12951E; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJ2EZDGUYIny; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59BC41293FB; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MfiFU-1cZJHD3Fwa-00NCM8; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:23:07 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:23:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:cd32ZDjE3KL2dfB7M2LdbekhLTnVqeVpzlSDj6DfC7dwaIyofpB yK/6RLZo97GLqFQZilg1cjxj02dCpFpovMGrSMp9fdNLfBnOct+1V1DOdEGCnkbfhDZEW5U Yg/wsm0MVsyresKpIKXOwh5mzlcQcDkcoOvro1Ey5omRtbY/fVkjUy/ENI9P/lJd9DWazGO S8OERrpDzBEC8P3rVTb8Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:kq8syHJeCvA=:d3TEscwesosq5CkkwohLpB 38m/UgapLvGoWG4Awesv0mtgCL6551m6i13C48GflFVKzW6e8JXPcFWOBnX7ZOi8F+hV6iUEa UXfvt7jFjV+/0QY+E6oS+glVVSv7u5n5cl2cQpyoH0OvoFjaOsrFvV3A706kSIYURxXl/TAJy 7GgpfIoZl2smTEJvkljylj9+mMsfN+Zzv058V03TYJqcrhbLwg0JlSmVl8tWUnBzC9xAqNua3 pER5rN6BHcc/Nrm5LqMZcCHPUdcxcfdelkfquN+WyOA4EmGE12wirwRPDJNr2m0ZY+vFeO4Mp 9sIn+VuDGK38ihhhjEWjmWv77CkL4cImCepqTEBzFnGZzxwajQQomChswfz0c3FraQUxbnP4F NmU+pAPyAzXNfX3VA6MgBRWRJUPwwSM2UkEbTDGIq07yTOnSGkznxKqs378sxIvZHHZVvpnUV IXT+MliUkG53K9yKUgVGvMp0lD9RfbIeLSrAO/g4+srcfLpAt1pbWWCvy5dXjlmLSsPuB+Ep/ c5ZMza54ajsgW/jYJVx2WvCqJKgQxuvQtL67wVIk5oUdyuABojWdrloTu7+6dv6K+b/7PkHbu sVRKW1WE0tPOyJvdsUN/zudCU6MtQcfMEMpEOxs/zJ0dwzByF+EGehkAiwHJ+m6Cd7kFGSMV2 ScHUEUbkm3Mtn5xtInXUZXPek+CIbaDCRF8hP9sPRiLQ9XLrp8WLM9f5pOQAjfAKI2R2YhVWT nYcd5gQIYoDdPiOz8WpWTshi+aLuC1ot3IXGYxiiTwtrdb1F/nXhkxevBez6LmdENT8X2/j2u XBkpROo Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:23:19 -0000 On 2017-03-13 23:19, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 13 Mar 2017, at 22:50, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> ...and add that if the number of octets is less than 4, it's UTF-8. > > No. > > (It’s not hard to get this right in a program, because you can write unit tests. > It is much harder to get this right in text. > Let’s NOT write this text.) > > Grüße, Carsten "No" in the sense of "that's incorrect", or "it's correct, but we shouldn't state it"? From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:24:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1008E129BE8; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:24:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odJiRibZtNJq; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3A3D129BE2; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DMOVP8013091; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:24:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhsqM20GqzDH0M; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:24:31 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:24:30 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511136670.243296-91ce817d9e94e2c1bce098b1b15a0359 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:24:46 -0000 On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:23, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > "No" in the sense of "that's incorrect", or "it's correct, but we = shouldn't state it"? Incorrect. (Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:39:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF502129442; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RcHeaCN0MRQh; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46688129440; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.107.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MZwYd-1cWHmG1pV9-00Lofg; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:38:51 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <7581abf5-1189-67ce-883f-f98f17d8eb24@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:38:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:xAqegjV+MiuIGeMMSRNKZgmAbxc25/U5S6s4WK05cK3qxwpM9dA 7w+v+/wDQ6RliqsQj9GqCygkiMqMuCf5gUDxXN1j3HCrw1tkJ09Y0weLtysosz+KXD/YGgu d1SFNO2v7MDRISZiXFVdmtbz3DPuP1EAZcsvCetalymK9zdTi0a7gOQDQL2R1UEacgQXwpS Gf//+LOI7fCzDT0/ipOvg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:XIUNUeGwHXA=:wCJbmPqO2CBp0AH1z0R6fq W8qnPcc+GkhU9M+Q1nBYkuOPLoPOqVQjeQNhlv5Kfqs7/OBw9Wyzd1eDLhZqD5dziitSG3CW3 mLuSkymk+H7T8FMQCtjQU5L7yGHSm0+C/lCDY16Oh2bcUv4/h+OAaamxpcMZrFizgkDRxSgMX D3zzsfTf7T5lS9P1C92bhxK5G4DrdzzlA+wANUd2L5+dvfbI3o4CwH+L66ylZwy/w2Sotz/Ee +UkuKq4uBo8mm31YioaBSgeUIoEGyVnudHhJxNawAFT/jeByRRESBqdbPSW3NSCsXLyOrrGYe 1n0+MPjIcZe2AKmAeGCFFT/qQI5rZ2rtIcImO5oT3lJRzB4O/PV23Kgp7bP9lUW6eF+o+i0qh QlehDPjEG0To6m23ndqAbHiGLCXtAOVfOTM9Ecuj+Mcz2zon1pjTU1/K9Z5LQBmHfJfML57Wt yTJWOC5erxe/cmjQOyYgPKdoF64IXArcXr8u23uloeBZM18L0Y6CMTldiZJMkkBdQjWlxAqJE LTsQda0GBwMZJYBvLa99JeJLnaSUQoMsj1qOJvujJ5v/iNCnzDujMe6V64H2ms+fPkwjRqYYN BDNh5gHAlTzeXhLWx1tkBHory2vyHW+H9c5Sp/4ltkTq7w0mo+3h6BOxBi3j1efh8PSOUCXAz MtfcN7uOdIPGlcdisJGe7LLmPgW0QvfyhSAMKQ61CicDEqJymFiBE/coD65wLw4gDrkJDn2jE H8fBLtybi4cNEFO6u4N5FJeI/vyknsvMdeKIFx+U2IvI3lNulbTjDBgnWebvS//KJoed4Pols uAP1u6d Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:39:03 -0000 On 2017-03-13 23:24, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:23, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> "No" in the sense of "that's incorrect", or "it's correct, but we shouldn't state it"? > > Incorrect. > > (Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.) > > Grüße, Carsten OK. Let's try again. If the number of octets is less than 4, it's either UTF-8 or no JSON at all? From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:44:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FD8129AF5 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TY2gHNO1A4Ap for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3E87129BC8 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24376 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2017 22:37:35 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 13 Mar 2017 22:37:35 +0000 To: Julian Reschke , Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <1cae01bf-721c-1fe0-46c2-8e82b5a043a7@codalogic.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:44:49 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:44:56 -0000 On 13/03/2017 21:50, Julian Reschke wrote: > I personally would prefer the table that I posted, as directly > identifies byte ordering as well: > >> 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE >> 00 xx 00 xx UTF-16BE >> xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE >> xx 00 xx 00 UTF-16LE >> xx xx xx xx UTF-8 However, the table is not correct because the second 00 in the UTF-16 cases could be non-zero when we have a string that starts with a non-ASCII range character. Maybe a table in which the first n-bytes match the follow can be used: 00 00 UTF-32BE 00 xx UTF-16BE xx 00 00 UTF-32LE xx 00 xx UTF-16LE xx xx UTF-8 But overall I prefer the "UTF-8 REALLY REALLY SHOULD be used unless the system knows otherwise" text proposed earlier. Nothing other than UTF-8 should be transported over a network these days (beyond file sharing etc). UTF-8 won! Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com From nobody Mon Mar 13 16:56:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933F6129662; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqEZBlc4nsct; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2783129673; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DNu319022431; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:56:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhvrz31d4zDH1J; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:56:03 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <7581abf5-1189-67ce-883f-f98f17d8eb24@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:56:02 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511142162.054844-c51cb89cfb55cecf79a1458f000b506a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> <7581abf5-1189-67ce-883f-f98f17d8eb24@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:56:21 -0000 On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:38, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 >> (Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.) >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > OK. Let's try again. >=20 > If the number of octets is less than 4, it's either UTF-8 or no JSON = at all? OK, it seems I need to give away the answer to the exercise: 33 00 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 13 23:01:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7C0129456; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:01:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UZ8IpxtDVWBV; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5276B12940E; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.112.97]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9eHT-1cwmKK0uYJ-00CzDS; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:01:23 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> <7581abf5-1189-67ce-883f-f98f17d8eb24@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:01:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:O5+0RfRsrdclT2sP8OWmavBTolMSHAdzgfn+AJHGZiTQEOkb9bi 1NLhJX9LQ8B2LLwe/6ZSag+eLoxDwHgz1pXLO6EoGE9NOzbBmF/Heh5bxXbrWbiNpvtffSU uvrqnfnGt9aw2GvKm+wCULBGJF4V3zLtXQz5EZOD/76DZjpurbzddxB0BYbH+TenYGsTw/A JKjO+joqeC2pcHXP3tQzQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:jhxVeXi+xX0=:pPO4H5pRI+h8o4LM6c8d8c knI7BHVL1YcmqJR1lgVQe+S4EFeamjQ2TPAHgHW37Vd5//+VIgxY/QKiGIiHaVmEnWCf/0vlf XgNxQvDHioKWOZ6/424xOwL0wvcrC4VgJ9uz4evh13O3N8538P9bkCQ+vGMI9J0/XXoceUC88 FlX+70y3Fx2zigN//N2fewkRR2vA8U79/9/K2bqw8131Uo2dsrYZda0zNG03KN+z6JSDt3WsL 7COP7/S5LMAm1yJGOaHEA+CgU2tWmNLg8Vdlv6Na4VtG1ktAQ/ZAFLf6seReXAnMi2x6IUJhX +xWZP30CwwpYgd19yj7AunsgC/4b0e6LSNHqeWvZlH/qZM1QlfWSNDjR6q0Fouq9X2Czq1+0C moR96yvC+AhczMNKMlPy5I/FDbyP3KAu18p8pSMkAZ2ym/bV9ATCA57i2ujKylnMSgGsb0U86 My5yVbWVQwrLxJXB3CRYtJ/qUI69+/y/jH1crs/gdTxFrVBxfQOmK4Gi19/icRM3ATELxgYUk KkGkjgW8Rqxy+NjkrP9vYrCNvYky48jofsaHcbf7W99ylpAMZdrsupov6TMJ8rPDjbSXTPP1g b1U+ER7DdPhS0bbSP97HLggOjBT3FjEs8IYnWXf3XporZQ7ZB5FbDro6ij0AevJcDgG2jfFX9 9MSoypi7ldEmGFvpjQbP4rp2a4oCYUTcsLDlIHPORDm0HUOM9z7mpFQ0F6CybyVlZRFj73dAk dlOKQYXxM1a1K9AOPYaBeVMz+Bb2EeytXrN0caNH2OW13UeUcEIgwPU5juJV1f//Z+dIZxyFH 3uXmtaF Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:01:38 -0000 On 2017-03-14 00:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:38, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >>> (Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.) >>> >>> Grüße, Carsten >> >> OK. Let's try again. >> >> If the number of octets is less than 4, it's either UTF-8 or no JSON at all? > > OK, it seems I need to give away the answer to the exercise: > > 33 00 Yep, I was too focused on top-level strings that start with non-ASCII... Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 23:17:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD8D12944E for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XzDKpSFqd8RQ for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com (mail-qt0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86FF712940E for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x35so48541300qtc.2 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4SbUSGhDdddak6gVKFv1IU8WcD0MMdYHcYqrnDQD81Y=; b=QThdXSsYna5jflKs09Oa9p7e87RW3UVdgBnh7GuDSEocBetO1R3M6yYywdaWjKPHfN ErGna/O/DrkXBe3xB3WJs8oWVX41LxCoqe/RixdR3lQAqPbMJg5ToFJNyQv3uyLiww+r FIU/90VRmqB0Vfna5IE70uB9qIuxj2vpcrAm/NtIBkmGB1NGqXkI84aVfHpft97aHiC7 P8rrY+LrSEIPZrg3+Ksz/AzfX/KRI1En3OjIQAYK2CZXiDElDQVopSy8w335hZogqIuM IGuZfFBudgOHQ3PUoEOe0HxjaehXe7J4y5+MOkQQEnUBeSdVdAx5QbRWAgshdsBCpCHj XObw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4SbUSGhDdddak6gVKFv1IU8WcD0MMdYHcYqrnDQD81Y=; b=Q+DvFm3cGNhxLMnuCnb7/Q9FFOds+MJXtB2X9odU+qBmMxSZL2SWc79DatrfSLc2/w btBDLD+D+9BZxRHlMTHehvcQee/Ce7UjkW/k9tNAPxwHaKUK6wAuZoNzWdeypGMiDO42 ZQ0eCVC/H/b30v8q6A+DHD6EGhChY0NDGvbJpdpgC8pvoaalAk7Xjtyc/9vRUA0sybAu z6pDSZMUYiRuhlamVBzvVMWwZ4OdSk7ybFWIHWbkZWjXSvqM0O+pB82oRTVvVWqYUBBC lvoRWWIG6Zqfj9N6RiXB85VwkRn35J5QwX03n/74sI/e1pQZV+tEgBW/w7C8gfPS/5NH ILPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39ltDkJhQZq3mgJc7Fmgg4paF9ktEE5M1plGTiSFeX60gCj2C51Jhkm61FHYKgpPpGU21fnNoIfvS27g0A== X-Received: by 10.200.34.144 with SMTP id f16mr37617821qta.186.1489472258763; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.92.147 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.86.134.32] Received: by 10.140.92.147 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:17:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f41fee303ef054aaac815 Archived-At: Cc: Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:17:40 -0000 --001a113f41fee303ef054aaac815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My position is identical to Carsten's. If you want guaranteed interoperability, use I-JSON. Let's not weaken this document with dubious handwaving that suggests anything but UTF-8 is a sane choice. On Mar 13, 2017 3:24 PM, "Carsten Bormann" wrote: > On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:23, Julian Reschke wrote: > > > > "No" in the sense of "that's incorrect", or "it's correct, but we > shouldn't state it"? > > Incorrect. > > (Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --001a113f41fee303ef054aaac815 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My position is identical to Carsten's. If you want gu= aranteed interoperability, use I-JSON. Let's not weaken this document w= ith dubious handwaving that suggests anything but UTF-8 is a sane choice.

On Mar 13, 20= 17 3:24 PM, "Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 13 Mar 2017, at 23:23, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> "No" in the sense of "that's incorrect", or &q= uot;it's correct, but we shouldn't state it"?

Incorrect.

(Counterexample left as an exercise to the reader.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--001a113f41fee303ef054aaac815-- From nobody Mon Mar 13 23:44:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B0E1293EC; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:44:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zWWH7ABuYQcb; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3351289B0; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.112.97]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MZOan-1cWzBs1lEr-00LGsf; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:44:41 +0100 To: Tim Bray , Carsten Bormann References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <9c0dee1b-341c-e783-a30b-1afeb841e693@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:44:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:mlzJHNpxyjaj+Ql1GXt1po9nWZfGbgOmipU6UqAXK+NHVTuR4Ds 4xI/JNWlhXQEsVPPzd5z09dzxgpSiWsKiEPUTGd3vsOPI2+dqq67J++ufxGleg8k7wOmYXn skoaZqr9LJtP1ahOcRvgO+8v46Mn8NwuHAziZWu7jRX+qy9X4sPuI/YDgSC1gZ4q5iQcaWE FnOLPVzz8+nBd+wqvYKTA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:mC9o8oeE2Xc=:du0FztUhyMqxYUbUfEEiqo t/e4gfGzg/tFqFSzZJCRslk30tcQ+6P47x1ZcV2xO3xHqZLJiumdyngE9y9eU/kHdl325hYMt Pbl+A7hp96pROJ0P5NaOXB9Y1RcMqmJQ1lpKQX41iMCS3/1zwBcHLvWw0Jk3lLHs+AGvI54L+ 8WyDYTXw8y+jLLp5yhxWwEY2xHJuKFNJHzGIbBi3x+FQrG95HoVDzZO0REJN9t+rH+hyGVvIl EBR/1clFvGRis0IoLxcMguMOvp2ramUnoqkJaVzElZ42zV3B4BTkvQDrYw2h2wsIazqC1muOG 3RopoEDAvHLd/OFC2EGfC4LaUBjafvU4/YcSnWuWY0ZrcANhCL0V5+uf1jVnH+Sil1AALbsAH 31NkBIbTFqahhecWidd+d6gIuI+UYFJUeg+xxkM/9BMsw+mUQZGLXiNBCJPCOmk7w0whwIoJo JcckwFD+rF1+8w8y4zoB0suCEBqpdh3x2z9eiXovM4j6eZW4RxoiUYZETqSFi+qTpQ3NrErR1 Jo/JDNEk+NDVS47wGUgGJ1y32c2mVD/BLfMI7L1vAXyVdMs8YvXSpiUUcCnpxh7X53JSQ9bMO gL4Q+2CmN+svn6+kjpEiGpXzkxUbOUPZM5+z7DqMmGbwOCRCV6jGXQWh0YIUrLrf1+AL99L14 hfOTIMnwmgqdjcOrvK2bAe3b5ZGsq6yimK+xeOiRv9kbMFneTn9Z5PdL3a9z8b9bj4IZlFCuu eYwI1dA0oA2DsvYebMSY/uRiHaMFoGCIJNUcYafzcMbsap3SO3VzuC94NkHWryiI9Mqk50Lj8 Zx3KsRV Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:44:53 -0000 On 2017-03-14 07:17, Tim Bray wrote: > My position is identical to Carsten's. If you want guaranteed > interoperability, use I-JSON. Let's not weaken this document with > dubious handwaving that suggests anything but UTF-8 is a sane choice. > ... I'm sympathetic with the intent. However, if the spec allows encodings other than UTF-8, it needs to give sufficient information that this needs to be done by inspecting the payload, not out-of-band data. Carsten has demonstrated that it's not simple, so let's either write down the exact steps, or at least give readers something to start with, such as: "Character encoding detection can be done based on the fact that the first character is always US-ASCII, so the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for zeros." Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 13 23:50:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCCB1294EA; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id udeaKa1peAEr; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD0691294FB; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2E6oBWI022597; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:50:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vj52q3rzdzDH4B; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:50:11 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9c0dee1b-341c-e783-a30b-1afeb841e693@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:50:10 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511167010.586277-f186d51cbdb4927a4faaa1dcd24e135b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> <9c0dee1b-341c-e783-a30b-1afeb841e693@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:50:20 -0000 On 14 Mar 2017, at 07:44, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > "Character encoding detection can be done based on the fact that the = first character is always US-ASCII, so the UTF-16/32 variants can be = detected by inspecting the first octets for zeros." Prefix this with =E2=80=9CIf UTF-16 and UTF-32 forms need to be = supported,=E2=80=9D, and I=E2=80=99m happy. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 14 01:46:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E9B129469 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:46:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H16tIrJ_oUUh for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32487129441 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6265 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2017 08:39:13 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 14 Mar 2017 08:39:13 +0000 To: Julian Reschke , Matthew Miller , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <1cae01bf-721c-1fe0-46c2-8e82b5a043a7@codalogic.com> From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <76b9f10c-9599-93af-546b-5769b83bdc9b@codalogic.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:46:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1cae01bf-721c-1fe0-46c2-8e82b5a043a7@codalogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:46:34 -0000 On 13/03/2017 22:44, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 13/03/2017 21:50, Julian Reschke wrote: >> I personally would prefer the table that I posted, as directly >> identifies byte ordering as well: >> >>> 00 00 00 xx UTF-32BE >>> 00 xx 00 xx UTF-16BE >>> xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE >>> xx 00 xx 00 UTF-16LE >>> xx xx xx xx UTF-8 > > > However, the table is not correct because the second 00 in the UTF-16 > cases could be non-zero when we have a string that starts with a > non-ASCII range character. > > Maybe a table in which the first n-bytes match the follow can be used: > > 00 00 UTF-32BE > 00 xx UTF-16BE > xx 00 00 UTF-32LE > xx 00 xx UTF-16LE > xx xx UTF-8 Seems I need to correct my correction to allow for 0100;LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH MACRON and so on: 00 00 UTF-32BE 00 xx UTF-16BE xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE xx 00 00 xx UTF-16LE xx 00 xx UTF-16LE xx xx UTF-8 xx EOF UTF-8 (For Carsten's recent comment) I think that's roughly where we got last time, and sufficient doubt had crept in that the UTF-8 should be used if unless the system knows the encoding is otherwise. Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 03:47:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA92F12943B; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTx2ZStJwsSg; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D8EF128B44; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2EAkxTs011967; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:46:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vjBJ307DpzDHCt; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:46:58 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <76b9f10c-9599-93af-546b-5769b83bdc9b@codalogic.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:46:57 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511181217.67503-c198730151a8e95eceac4d9e76aa2f4a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <1cae01bf-721c-1fe0-46c2-8e82b5a043a7@codalogic.com> <76b9f10c-9599-93af-546b-5769b83bdc9b@codalogic.com> To: "json@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:47:05 -0000 > 00 00 UTF-32BE > 00 xx UTF-16BE > xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE > xx 00 00 xx UTF-16LE > xx 00 xx UTF-16LE > xx xx UTF-8 > xx EOF UTF-8 (For Carsten's recent comment) Wow, people are still posting incorrect match tables :-) I think that Julian (with my amendment maybe) nailed it, no need to make = ever more wronger proposals here. (Again, in the age of unit testing, all this is much easier to get right = for a coder than for a spec writer.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 14 04:03:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21C112953D; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvXqiQdsq11G; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-os2jpn01on0093.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.92.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732AB12943B; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:03:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=x+ZponzdIqM4G/CeEYQn1KuizrOY3WPSlvVJR6gAows=; b=JC/mX66L4GE1jnpW7wR40reVbORnM4WgnHcr+J99Noue+jBaf/npiNt5+x6Zagt+gSb15HfDKZ+mkew+RFwi/jHQnL7Zd0YdkSjgW5AF6DNNxIFCoTuLN6JLUD5A7e9Uk80UNnNnc1QJaYfzJAHwdZXfTopeAb+5vbNBswHNn7k= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from [133.2.210.64] (133.2.210.64) by OSXPR01MB0645.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.167.147.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.961.17; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:03:29 +0000 To: Carsten Bormann , Julian Reschke References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <4B0A7371-9D85-4BEF-BC3C-14175E563178@tzi.org> <98ba10a0-6e44-9ff0-5993-f7ec9c66d74b@gmx.de> <9c0dee1b-341c-e783-a30b-1afeb841e693@gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <554078f2-6ed5-229a-dd34-8e4e971167ac@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:03:26 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; 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Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:03:36 -0000 On 2017/03/14 15:50, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 14 Mar 2017, at 07:44, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> "Character encoding detection can be done based on the fact that the first character is always US-ASCII, so the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for zeros." > > Prefix this with “If UTF-16 and UTF-32 forms need to be supported,”, and I’m happy. That would be fine with me, but I think it would be great if we could also rewrite the "JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32" phrase in the current draft as per my separate proposal (as modified by Peter Cordell at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/MR93bNIj1sDEutFIPupHTRYrJPI). Starting with UTF-8 only rather than starting with UTF-8, UTF-16, and UTF-32 together makes it clearer where interoperability is even if for somebody who reads the text in detail, there's not much that changes. Regards, Martin. From nobody Tue Mar 14 04:43:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB0F129543 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:43:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R0RNH44fyykj for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B7C12954D for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10679 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2017 11:35:50 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 14 Mar 2017 11:35:50 +0000 To: Carsten Bormann , "json@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <1cae01bf-721c-1fe0-46c2-8e82b5a043a7@codalogic.com> <76b9f10c-9599-93af-546b-5769b83bdc9b@codalogic.com> From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:43:05 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:43:10 -0000 On 14/03/2017 10:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> 00 00 UTF-32BE >> 00 xx UTF-16BE >> xx 00 00 00 UTF-32LE >> xx 00 00 xx UTF-16LE >> xx 00 xx UTF-16LE >> xx xx UTF-8 >> xx EOF UTF-8 (For Carsten's recent comment) > > Wow, people are still posting incorrect match tables :-) Well, it was posted to show the rat hole that specifying detection is, and illustrate why we might not want to go there. > I think that Julian (with my amendment maybe) nailed it, no need to make ever more wronger proposals here. I think Julian's table missed the case of a string starting with a character like U+0100. If that did turn out to be the route chosen, it seemed prudent to point out the omission earlier rather than later. (I'll resist an update with xx 00 EOF UTF-16LE.) > (Again, in the age of unit testing, all this is much easier to get > right for a coder than for a spec writer.) Only if you don't miss cases to test! Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 06:59:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E6412787B for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:59:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jfQujsiXbqtj for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DDBC127874 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id t189so64624817wmt.1 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:59:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=92DQ99N52Mv2iShepHhQgM+fTsrrCOj13qiSSVkxp8w=; b=xJUXLSzDkpNLOU16JTwrnKOqLGmy6l3AUQuYrhVp6/mSh6gWIeQ/06IicQCgzpxUnH UWrqEgBkPCS1BlVCb10KW1o5NnDQLdzDgPXUn4HJS1RNQd0q0t1zAJbJiY2LIkanMAXd N4M2OJfYJMczhyxXdnMZu4bLmEKeX3mTyBfbsiaKkO+mjqoqDKvy6mf2L2xrtajnzzzF u0bcDuesC2mBB71xaySaEQDQbDfSFGTRnIJ2Clf2OIccdx3XUFb/XhsZ88oD2UoZjLMN Y4/B0grgTeCYg6Vx5y3rKaKPzgmAk0jcr9I5gw20wgkY3en+tqfm53UvWeHIkrh9QkJK 8YtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=92DQ99N52Mv2iShepHhQgM+fTsrrCOj13qiSSVkxp8w=; b=XgDkknucLl+uvcyBIZ6m7ezT11p05tKjoZY2Ircm+CyBqS9jo8jKYJom16ACUNttue VsnB4+432nBhz0IAj3azaoh6+IXTBgt4kfqxsUIn0h/rTpDylHs6NPFNwCGNYLePslhi 69L4Ju2l2NG9O9pWBzsK12FfSWOPISrLDmvs4Rz1F6LB3akDKHFspAzt25+O9EMezoFJ qsGQ2sA1BL5xjZ8NTi82Ors/ARsG/6wtA9QCwuCeY4AQ1nS7rlZvhFRupbemuBu5sDww UiwajK6MYKPuoY65fdltCKG8KAsbgione271nvbrb2RfwJ9EUqocyca2J3AoAMOc5WZE o1lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1VAMkzrVLxlbpD50HjMdSftj112F3eZGrkJ5CslnxZ37fY393CwsPAQi1UF6BljjWuEEsjEn4Fn0E6a8LH X-Received: by 10.28.107.14 with SMTP id g14mr15885450wmc.106.1489499939764; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:58:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:58:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> From: John Cowan Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:58:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11442d9ecda206054ab13aeb Archived-At: Cc: Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, IETF , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:59:08 -0000 --001a11442d9ecda206054ab13aeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: Consistency is the hobgoblin of the little minds. > The actual quotation says "foolish consistency". But not all consistency is foolish. > (Apparently, not having that nonsense in there did not hurt for 7159? > If people want to implement something useless and cannot figure this stuff > out, should we help them?) > > Putting back any form of apparent support for UTF-16 and UTF-32 is a > regression. > In my opinion, we should either take all references to UTF-16 or UTF-32 out, or add back a correct detection algorithm. UTF-8 is what is actually interoperable, and interoperability is what RFCs are supposed to be all about. -- --001a11442d9ecda206054ab13aeb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> w= rote:

Consistency is the hob= goblin of the little minds.

The a= ctual quotation says "foolish consistency".=C2=A0 But not all con= sistency is foolish.
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D":1d9" class=3D"a3s aXjCH m15ac93eeec0f9dd1"> (Apparently, not having that nonsense in there did not hurt for 7159?
If people want to implement something useless and cannot figure this stuff = out, should we help them?)

Putting back any form of apparent support for UTF-16 and UTF-32 is a regres= sion.

In my op= inion, we should either take all references to UTF-16 or UTF-32 out, or add= back a correct detection algorithm. UTF-8 is what is actually interoperabl= e, and interoperability is what RFCs are supposed to be all about.

--=C2=A0
=


--001a11442d9ecda206054ab13aeb-- From nobody Tue Mar 14 17:35:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9609131718; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:35:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stephen Farrell To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, mamille2@cisco.com, json@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148953811968.24339.17066327917792277332.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:35:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Json] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:35:19 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ There are no remarks associated with this position. From nobody Tue Mar 14 17:52:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFD11294AE; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:52:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, mamille2@cisco.com, json@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148953916197.24379.5312613110015750797.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:52:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Json] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:52:42 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - section 9: This allows limits for nesting depth, number range and precision, and string length. Can you offer any guidance about what sorts of limits might be reasonable? Or what limits might unreasonably impact interoperability? - 12, 2nd paragraph: This paragraph sort of buries the lede. I thought it was going to talk about the implications of not being able to parse certain JSON legal characters with eval(), but I understand it really about the risk of arbitrary executable content. I suggest you say that in the first sentence. From nobody Wed Mar 15 10:22:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C8A13172A; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kathleen Moriarty To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis@ietf.org, Matthew Miller , jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, mamille2@cisco.com, json@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148959854472.14161.773965414512574333.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:22:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Json] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:22:25 -0000 Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see a response to the first part of the SecDir review on the Security Considerations section. Given the content of the current security considerations section, I agree with Ben that the additional considerations he mentions should be included. Can someone respond to Ben please on that part of his review? Thank you. From nobody Thu Mar 16 03:28:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70B7127097 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kUbDqhWzKwu9 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1266127333 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25859 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2017 10:21:12 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 16 Mar 2017 10:21:12 +0000 To: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:28:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:28:40 -0000 On 14/03/2017 13:58, John Cowan wrote: > In my opinion, we should either take all references to UTF-16 or UTF-32 > out, or add back a correct detection algorithm. UTF-8 is what is > actually interoperable, and interoperability is what RFCs are supposed > to be all about. Combining the original (Tim's) & Martin's proposal with my tweak, plus John & Carsten's direction, how about: 8.1. Character Encoding JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. Are "generator" and "parser" the correct terms to use in this instance, or does that functionality sit above the character encoding layer? Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 03:49:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF8E127599; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id McVTyBCBo8Co; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E19012704B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Metpl-1cZHUM07Pl-00OYms; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:49:03 +0100 To: Peter Cordell , John Cowan , Carsten Bormann References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , secdir@ietf.org From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:49:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:SDb14aQDgdMjeZw2EkBAOt1KuhE5K6pJxb0Em0KbEu+w1WrJtEg 1/7Vs5oJISTu1tFeJcWo9RWKdhFAteNbt6PBkXZ0hFVMOShS+/f3Z8EoNk6SE7uW9M/RFlQ DVQcodpD0gVTP9dFnQNng+S7Eiv0sBCk3M/YrLa9DM75SoZuICihHfqVVzTULjypzLmQhMZ 7/nMjm6UPy/SNyFyKBfkg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:aticPsBUu1E=:VtK4KfPTHKShq4t+uI5T1+ 56aRoHYvNTjj5dEvS0u2kpsmh+/8YkfQZzSBKz4UHKIlvzu0ykSJwpEgifQA8C1SGGDBWrg0K MB+i16dTYCsDblU1TRFqpWEMAawC86/BC8/uh/VnK0LoADyt2BA7JTWHipObt4deiM5Fm/cFO 63z80NAGHLAxlWcjH3N79fnOvyQD1aYEwsO/aAO5tyUcuUlahbl/Mi0nu4CvoBLUyflpwWj3H b/imawiPeN1wQtcZOdSS58DsIaHvUNLMeIB8YzuvLzNkpOgvbmABFLVgjmiSmTshoIGcmib8M I8LrKR+2EKeIeKNoN0M1BmltCOXl7MQ9kwuPQq98ZeGUfNW7eYZQeISPOZXfRE+OZDYsTfpOu Hpi+JzJzT+d4NrTkylkC1/Qq3igCosUbeH6M6JUVM0mxftXk8R0/Tp6zDBJm96ZT1oskzVC8Y vvoENQtSV8AqxrS5Y9cBPJEWPvSHHBIZ1fZE9odVPpp8PZak+7JYAwgWdTpoKz2AMPUSabPbp YB2gJW4wCfJ9ueWKPVh6EqWyLZr7T7CYLAxYhyCSLxCEhv1b90oKIAlLd61B38LEX+qG6KnCg vvo+WUntxep0yA0Ztw0s/+NiJkIBryv3HCvFnZgxEL22uNAO1jPoRrJXyikgn7n6ZV31lLiSo 8l/SHZnxUr9eyjhIsnXfucZI/O81vjDS2BtOaymwYuOaWS5EA0FFYpMNOaB48bC4jCfrLudm+ EgfZOIhPuoq1nHm0exfQXaAxXcbscYtmIOjMgZecurwcH8bGE3k6mqiY3Z5wh8xQoxSy0QMiR 64yZYUF Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:49:14 -0000 On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 14/03/2017 13:58, John Cowan wrote: >> In my opinion, we should either take all references to UTF-16 or UTF-32 >> out, or add back a correct detection algorithm. UTF-8 is what is >> actually interoperable, and interoperability is what RFCs are supposed >> to be all about. > > Combining the original (Tim's) & Martin's proposal with my tweak, plus > John & Carsten's direction, how about: > > > 8.1. Character Encoding > > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON > texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that > they will be read successfully by the maximum number of > implementations. > > There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts > in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if > the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. > > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a > JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations > that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark > rather than treating it as an error. > > Are "generator" and "parser" the correct terms to use in this instance, > or does that functionality sit above the character encoding layer? > ... Not convinced. a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- b) It doesn't state that the only way to support encodings other than UTF-8 is to inspect the leading octets for zeros (or their lack of). Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 16 04:23:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35AD1292C5 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:23:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0J8LsqU9LfB for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BCC71292AE for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28182 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2017 11:16:32 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 16 Mar 2017 11:16:32 +0000 To: Julian Reschke , John Cowan , Carsten Bormann References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , secdir@ietf.org From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:23:47 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:23:54 -0000 On 16/03/2017 10:49, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: >> >> 8.1. Character Encoding >> >> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON >> texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that >> they will be read successfully by the maximum number of >> implementations. >> >> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts >> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if >> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >> >> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a >> JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations >> that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark >> rather than treating it as an error. >> >> Are "generator" and "parser" the correct terms to use in this instance, >> or does that functionality sit above the character encoding layer? >> ... > > Not convinced. > > a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to > support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- Why is that a problem if the generator knows the parser can read it? If someone wants to use EBCDIC for whatever reason, are they not allowed to call it JSON? > b) It doesn't state that the only way to support encodings other than > UTF-8 is to inspect the leading octets for zeros (or their lack of). UTF detection is one way. It's not the only way. If you want to go the UTF detection way or some other way, rfc7159bis shouldn't prevent it, but it doesn't have to tell you how to do it. Cheers, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd C++ tools for C++ programmers, http://codalogic.com Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Mar 16 04:36:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C6F1293DA; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfRkaeN2dBB1; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D04F1293F3; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LpKY5-1cLBDr1zuP-00f8L7; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:35:38 +0100 To: Peter Cordell , John Cowan , Carsten Bormann References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:35:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:QvYKNl+YIL28AD0XU1A2JGKp6S6M3DOUVc1EaGB/G+UkBAFivk3 +AAJJB9OaotXw776xLwx6N5o4mq1iyiLqDsXPymrzhzaAjv7dZTPo3w/RYHpDrEqTqaOBHm m7vb/dgyziSA+4B6e2/utSbSYTtLrQHsHR9p6b9GUSDw4/+uxni+eJhhdNMjjYVBrfOiR18 QVCYbFGDRZ1b2ynAkEl4w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:JMA4pUnV9jM=:yOcAwhox+cAoqmRwsIggql 0LsLsmfc5GzrT2+KEMmrfJQ0gacMRmobSLuk6VpTPmVd847EznRn18B9C1tPjpBMoG1ZAjV8a RCjCu0vsP5CHcaf+wVirFO2skmAac3nGO1dfdDJirfu5Ui0HJgKNvtMbMAqW4lWMWLUdadXVE 6oIAxU/Z9nhFG7uu5qIPStKcdwDtMYnKqRSx9qYoKGa2vFgsl5IPCLBU2XBcegXw+CEvjlhJB tLi7GFYjcLWDNYIcYoj6brByYskswdVYcB6xbrCOU9plGkEl72CqPaP4riTvy+plW1rmGEVW7 DbphptrLIydRo8Y400DHBK0o+OMsKTjlKJXwZ1TxvxsnNX/T+122p7xKxoGhmO98yRS7foY4f rHRzaTt4R391PbYCpUoL1L//vPXrM5cz3XEkYIOn6/7r9TmBnH7IC+3TigcNabO/KpkVOfKbM 1oPXFviF5eyj9x25HTkIwcJ8nc+6WNIkOpp/qxw6LkRfeyq6JHtVwhGAyLiiMHWm6yK2i6Dlo Qd225aUvi/HRd/ueGeHUo6NB+NR7oKRs1JYw4z2dQx8nCjCk5VoB3D4rZ1fucJQXdIraVFzJh 992v3FT7WUf8RcOcMzDQZce8ZuYkKcddU4S6L5yybxe2FULE7lT+KL2AeRT/XroSP0DhvyfPC gGKrLmk8kQIaMAuF0xVpwVPDcNK2AvOl54o9sjkPMowYCdbbLMitZ4JLB7ZtB7E1zRNWlXfI/ 5F2DnwL7w3chISCDxYFLrrUvyD9VqsRKHn9Ebzyb+he3CXnlxJZ4rwyEPKYn1uZ3y7oT7pCso IRfJOQd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:35:56 -0000 On 2017-03-16 12:23, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 16/03/2017 10:49, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: >>> >>> 8.1. Character Encoding >>> >>> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON >>> texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that >>> they will be read successfully by the maximum number of >>> implementations. >>> >>> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts >>> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if >>> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >>> >>> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a >>> JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations >>> that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark >>> rather than treating it as an error. >>> >>> Are "generator" and "parser" the correct terms to use in this instance, >>> or does that functionality sit above the character encoding layer? >>> ... >> >> Not convinced. >> >> a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to >> support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- > > Why is that a problem if the generator knows the parser can read it? If > someone wants to use EBCDIC for whatever reason, are they not allowed to > call it JSON? For application/json, it would violate a SHOULD-level requirement... : "JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32)." So I agree it's technically allowed. >> b) It doesn't state that the only way to support encodings other than >> UTF-8 is to inspect the leading octets for zeros (or their lack of). > > UTF detection is one way. It's not the only way. If you want to go the > UTF detection way or some other way, rfc7159bis shouldn't prevent it, > but it doesn't have to tell you how to do it. Oh, it's not the only way? How do we interoperate then? Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 16 05:19:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979ED129471; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 05:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=Q82Sti7Z; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=DzChXsvu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zbcHSJjOkoZ3; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 05:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3442129456; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 05:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B47E20932; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qpjA8AxfsaCeZWbx1P RFHo+7D4Y=; b=Q82Sti7ZxyriBWyw6o9TivOR4zpadA+Y7JIO3U6ZG8zsCjTq4F gnyzhR8OVI+gzL/hKOV6yC5Wd+z96G+B0EGdgVqn1EBVXDH2TLqyGVfxxaldYf4D 3ZHaZ0IsrMuvdJdtTD+RWA51np5Tq5aioQjW23Xipytrvpf/FnPR+p0epwtYMTTR jPMNfMQzjYuRmKoScNEdA4X2g5qca/9XoqEBYD7LXRbqtOCGDrUQf11vaqeeIGNs uUaahbNC15AJ9w1brb0ZGsgZNbgttCIOC/sQ5ikL3pUaNQMGyuZ4Z4dyCxPHT94H UqufYH1/rXGsY45BAsoBRgUGrN5zi//fNE6w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=qpjA8AxfsaCeZWbx1PRFHo+7D4Y=; b=DzChXsvuewY7va6/FKyz7DgG CsYV1J4vrLAph3U/W+qU8uqQwCUjq+vmPfB3I75EZD2a7f7UeguUzFaHjk46MEMk 6TAoytqkApQVWyIsX0rh4j58WRWO8kDP3GtDKSu39h69serKegvp+1iz27FjGJeY Fs//dZeppp4QkxFWiHsHdElbYhjdSPN646Dc5UpNtTP71ayP1yiIuFk7lho+NQSg cYwTz5AOMazlwHyfRggDxLN7ZGqLY264S3wupBF2TjFEEKjRLxzHth0PXJ8zyyk0 3fheLZsbpRsE4yFxj6nrExQaR6Z7BRBDeJIneXtygb/Lg+kAW9IJiLLP52HrqQ== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: TC0jBlsX8n8Fnn38lv8TDxhH1i0CUJDSuFknC+/YAlUL 1489666736 Received: from [172.22.50.14] (unknown [62.232.206.186]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E12A724591; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPad Mail (14A456) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:38:45 +0000 Cc: Peter Cordell , John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> To: Julian Reschke Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:19:05 -0000 > On 16 Mar 2017, at 11:35, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 >> On 2017-03-16 12:23, Peter Cordell wrote: >>> On 16/03/2017 10:49, Julian Reschke wrote: >>>> On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> 8.1. Character Encoding >>>>=20 >>>> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON >>>> texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that >>>> they will be read successfully by the maximum number of >>>> implementations. >>>>=20 >>>> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts >>>> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if >>>> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >>>>=20 >>>> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a >>>> JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations >>>> that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark >>>> rather than treating it as an error. >>>>=20 >>>> Are "generator" and "parser" the correct terms to use in this instance,= >>>> or does that functionality sit above the character encoding layer? >>>> ... >>>=20 >>> Not convinced. >>>=20 >>> a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to >>> support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- >>=20 >> Why is that a problem if the generator knows the parser can read it? If >> someone wants to use EBCDIC for whatever reason, are they not allowed to >> call it JSON? >=20 > For application/json, it would violate a SHOULD-level requirement... : >=20 > "JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. The default encod= ing is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in t= he sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implem= entations; there are many implementations that cannot successfully read text= s in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32)." >=20 > So I agree it's technically allowed. As this document is intended to be Internet Standard, it should strive to re= move number of choices and generally non interoperable features. So listing t= he minimal list of allowed encodings in this document would be a good thing.= From nobody Thu Mar 16 06:32:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53001294E7 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WUXAVDqInXh for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 06:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E57011294EC for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 06:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5237 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2017 13:25:17 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 16 Mar 2017 13:25:17 +0000 To: Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:32:38 -0000 On 16/03/2017 12:38, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> On 16 Mar 2017, at 11:35, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >>> On 2017-03-16 12:23, Peter Cordell wrote: >>>> On 16/03/2017 10:49, Julian Reschke wrote: >>>>> On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 8.1. Character Encoding >>>>> >>>>> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON >>>>> texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that >>>>> they will be read successfully by the maximum number of >>>>> implementations. >>>>> >>>>> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts >>>>> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if >>>>> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >>>>> >>>>> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a >>>>> JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations >>>>> that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark >>>>> rather than treating it as an error. >>>>> ... >>>> Not convinced. >>>> >>>> a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to >>>> support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- >>> >>> Why is that a problem if the generator knows the parser can read it? If >>> someone wants to use EBCDIC for whatever reason, are they not allowed to >>> call it JSON? ... > As this document is intended to be Internet Standard, it should strive to remove number of choices and generally non interoperable features. So listing the minimal list of allowed encodings in this document would be a good thing. I see rfc7159bis as a more generic description of JSON that may have applicability more periphery to the actual data bytes sent on the Internet. As such it echoes the scope of ECMA-404. I see I-JSON as the place to constrain things for the actual data on the Internet. In some respects it would be nice to move the JSON MIME type from rfc7159bis to I-JSON, but since the MIME type is also applicable beyond describing bytes on the Internet it's not quite doable. Regards, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:19:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEC2129613 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7neplXmv3UV for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x242.google.com (mail-ot0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 174D61295B3 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x242.google.com with SMTP id x37so8214268ota.1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Yl/cNmn/2bDq9U2wuj1mVLZAXwstDumS4fRwh+QZK7A=; b=hiEMXwGdoWPoALbWv5RYJKazHmBMj07ceb8DBKbCQnrz2N7/f3Xk/m3RqGaSa9fGFR nB1D3mRQSFcrOViyP9NeCdqJ3b73vJ8maZow98KlvFKz2X3eoVb16pT4wLEOZHujLPpt vpBUbyqpmVQMT4QQZvUEzek2qczKyYr+cxIdBRy/oWVoTvZcs1VBKyk4WeIl8yxoRWFX I1n3MccvUfI4187b5bjeamFbnZGX/Zl/CqXJh6dCKcdMbQ2Lz+xY9hRX/iNQsSY/sYbZ m6tdfjpnxj2pMuu+nwNgrZ3y1zOi8nEjCYmROnvniIPbibfdxcPr9zBwTnrAtZ9ZAPDH 3J1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Yl/cNmn/2bDq9U2wuj1mVLZAXwstDumS4fRwh+QZK7A=; b=KdUZC46yDYhH74zLdrwmTi48ckOTvQVQ3FR73fWVbMAW8Kc1uOqPQzJhvbwdRMmIyh AN/uq9NCii9ZxsI7knnesDYoHDUs1x0cUl/mRfZJS4DIAS6RA9OA684bcYTv/1gyEsZf qk68gmRiIxbg+FOC+XtlrrxMemz70hySnzVnNsBVdft9BI7scZ5pPHelRG4PgUIMhn6P HjSlGehgTVmBMQsHIMnwmMpLYfNyaGH98FXda+IzCiKShYFxCl+pFtdrtBN+MEeONt8g K/o/gIWLm6c2js+lbFTehj8D0InVvWcsmVIpthSEkH2buanFLiGpZc/p5gk8KISzzU6K cwXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2ZUFiloCf19Lx4lxvGF4M/LOvFwh8MIIv2sgCJj8OzdTttw4E8WxI+a/YnnkdmGA== X-Received: by 10.157.26.3 with SMTP id a3mr5764448ote.62.1489677533436; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u76sm2211080oie.1.2017.03.16.08.18.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:18:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wo5CNdbPblPhhQ32sI37hvrjJA71ttJar" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:19:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wo5CNdbPblPhhQ32sI37hvrjJA71ttJar Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="GUAspbmlHUJ7dmlH2QCAwIOuD8LA5LVsu"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke Cc: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> --GUAspbmlHUJ7dmlH2QCAwIOuD8LA5LVsu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/16 07:32, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 16/03/2017 12:38, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>> On 16 Mar 2017, at 11:35, Julian Reschke wrot= e: >>> >>>> On 2017-03-16 12:23, Peter Cordell wrote: >>>>> On 16/03/2017 10:49, Julian Reschke wrote: >>>>>> On 2017-03-16 11:28, Peter Cordell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> 8.1. Character Encoding >>>>>> >>>>>> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSO= N >>>>>> texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense t= hat >>>>>> they will be read successfully by the maximum number of >>>>>> implementations. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read tex= ts >>>>>> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings= if >>>>>> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning >>>>>> of a >>>>>> JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementation= s >>>>>> that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order ma= rk >>>>>> rather than treating it as an error. >>>>>> >=20 > ... >=20 >>>>> Not convinced. >>>>> >>>>> a) It's not constrained to UTF-8/16/32, so people might decide to >>>>> support ISO-8859-1, or UTF-7- >>>> >>>> Why is that a problem if the generator knows the parser can read >>>> it? If >>>> someone wants to use EBCDIC for whatever reason, are they not >>>> allowed to >>>> call it JSON? >=20 > ... >=20 >> As this document is intended to be Internet Standard, it should strive= >> to remove number of choices and generally non interoperable features. >> So listing the minimal list of allowed encodings in this document >> would be a good thing. >=20 >=20 > I see rfc7159bis as a more generic description of JSON that may have > applicability more periphery to the actual data bytes sent on the > Internet. As such it echoes the scope of ECMA-404. >=20 > I see I-JSON as the place to constrain things for the actual data on th= e > Internet. >=20 > In some respects it would be nice to move the JSON MIME type from > rfc7159bis to I-JSON, but since the MIME type is also applicable beyond= > describing bytes on the Internet it's not quite doable. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org >=20 Overall I think your text, in spirit, lines up with the consensus of the working group. While I am generally sympathetic to accommodation, I don't think there is support in the working group for expanding the allowed encodings beyond what RFC 7159 already stated. - m&m Matthew A. Miller --GUAspbmlHUJ7dmlH2QCAwIOuD8LA5LVsu-- --wo5CNdbPblPhhQ32sI37hvrjJA71ttJar Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYyqzdAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7XYUH/RjHfc1dzTOrKbWsZcbQX/Ny D53iWX4S5yuLQ31cv4JZ4EJMja2I9iXEUae5Yvb2mE8Ywdf5fsZRZ9BGFtW99svu glfABk7MAJwCZV+r79lIlNy8wU2YA07+/15gVW1bFrUehftl0OpzUAh9tb0xNMzs 21ehhS/n9saeMkekGvtY5jik516d7MyayjZTZ0JjfcolOYo0OoWqaFWz3m/jyLQt RJEt3hxydgWr6IjNa3SRs0dXsHelSNPqcLFBPiUcjKU4wpoYzxetIpO8nxwPAo1s pz9SKcIkgeV+tmQ5zQ7AwNOEYT6oVHuHr/bp7kDNhlzFx037s2wFwfKOYoOpemU= =/9pp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wo5CNdbPblPhhQ32sI37hvrjJA71ttJar-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 10:33:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A909E1296CB for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVSHGrm63fis for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD2EB1296C4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n11so117982194wma.1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SuaVlxrHSBuY9SpwFENGAiimt9B5hcyFe1SVa2TUh+Y=; b=GpFixdjO9mZw36AJi8rUKSCTMiZWDOIbORfulsKgJZk87RgmqtJSS2weDhbDWhS7MW Qe4oBNITEvHeNjYM223nK3vP5LextzB+b6aPZQ4c33ITAE3X2ri/ks5fFcOkML3Cear/ vl92CBFCPfZYQvzAaWkxVzYaEcVaslbSncs75EdV/rhKfHd72MptRkwQw9BKRFyhpq5R Zt2g1JMorb8zQynBiDrTmbQkqzWU8GpqpbyAWrW4Hdf72Yw9nEGmeDugEVslB9bRv3q0 XSrysPGapBesS+B6fezafW+HjII+Dauiwb/QhvDFV9Mb0l6DhL3nRicg1Y2m8iZTwJ5u aGqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SuaVlxrHSBuY9SpwFENGAiimt9B5hcyFe1SVa2TUh+Y=; b=lynNTFWBqtUJH8EZ/XFvZWOmxgDVbkPnKY9CIjeftqLWxmhvIsgUWV/McLTTPM8hHL 2A6ih1mEXaqrNJBtqrbcBK5fJGzgNQyaM26F9dyAeLW959u5duxjHnnxy0JKMO92WhvG i64w13xrz70LBlp2Zbv+FWkF2RncR7bEAJhFhlJX0rj8/zkGZrLlK3Ev1RAiCpgQzRsw n5YIoJEpKC9olPeJpm6EiuQq7U/+fYlMIiHACaapAfn1N3PxCeJoXrFCfdZLWnRGIvum As5BawxgkTkSPqYNDMwIDGJOtMW6Ak1oTTvGG8FCv0G9WtHASHt28uBA4xlr4irwADGf ctUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1AGe8tnp8EHgiHShis3rozWe/STfK6awdmrAH5U5zB4tcZtz6GegOFZvxF4e8UkeTYeFbam9tv2wlTMC9A X-Received: by 10.28.60.66 with SMTP id j63mr10469407wma.74.1489685628316; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> From: John Cowan Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Matthew A. Miller" Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a5322b40983054adc7600 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:33:52 -0000 --001a114a5322b40983054adc7600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Matthew A. Miller < linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote: While I am generally sympathetic to accommodation, I don't think there > is support in the working group for expanding the allowed encodings > beyond what RFC 7159 already stated. > Indeed, I will now go further. I am now in favor of saying "JSON SHALL be encoded in UTF-8", without further qualification. This is what everybody actually does, and why shouldn't we say so? -- John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I now introduce Professor Smullyan, who will prove to you that either he doesn't exist or you don't exist, but you won't know which. --Melvin Fitting --001a114a5322b40983054adc7600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Matthew A. Miller <<= a href=3D"mailto:linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net" target=3D"_blank">linuxwo= lf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote:

While I am ge= nerally sympathetic to accommodation, I don't think there
is support in the working group for expanding the allowed encodings
beyond what RFC 7159 already stated.

Indeed= , I will now go further.=C2=A0 I am now in favor of saying "JSON SHALL= be encoded in UTF-8", without further qualification.=C2=A0 This is wh= at everybody actually does, and why shouldn't we say so?

--=C2=A0
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici= .lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
I now introduce= Professor Smullyan, who will prove to you that either
he doesn't exist or you don't exist, but you won't = know which.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0--Melvin Fitting

--001a114a5322b40983054adc7600-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:25:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D43129A62 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c6j-bh4FqXAU for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x244.google.com (mail-ot0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87C67129A57 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x244.google.com with SMTP id a12so9624978ota.2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=wDF3iV2xjqiSJU3I36/YAMSxwcGxY7Cuy0sxa8EvXQA=; b=sKSiJ2CFESxDlEXbSpPAE1awSZW+TBXd7IYG9fGoGjCv6S8Mk0SuwcEvinpCHBJIi9 PaSSv8PAjbeFVAPhRpm4Mw7bPd1kn8rhE+P9fruSaq3yjVDiFG+y8xopaRBrEVMvKbi/ cOXZfx2aIZbtmcS08irtQRvSVi62d+F+w8TKY4fsj88DsJthSRcCh62n2BqpG2BQbz7a Q/m0wmkD9tshfZFsc0kld8yuaVjW1az++nBue+ZYD9uZMB0hOybvvGjOf845FLomDfe5 mNLEx8007FTulNTV1slkosDw3i+UXGkQzMzyvyBBL5MdahwFs/XC3RUWqYG1Czvoh+gC NCFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=wDF3iV2xjqiSJU3I36/YAMSxwcGxY7Cuy0sxa8EvXQA=; b=fPMLhPJ+dLdTGupwfSMwmdGt9J0jOMIib9M2uiV4f57ERqEoZGwSsbUrZccOCNcfMh T+pToUSW2W6qETfywX97FT4m4llRj/Gc4McAVXY+aRCDUawJEFPprrNuaEGxRdbzHFXF 96peA662rEc8FbGgpxUjzxbhJ3/laSaoFmqorpGEfTKbahKKHzHbWsnAbchZA2I8Ji+4 bv8y1PD2MXcjBwKLWeZbIpqFfTS3OPoAj331nmTy4AycFOrj3FerkMwsOEAaoIXzc7Qu 7gJ5m9VUvQ9LwGTPJZVx0eq/2rBNeLdLDXhezBGODDuT76iKavdtEzoIkB3al19KUijZ UnaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2rXC0tPldPxhlZxKdK/ZgkADirKe0N6jttp5WiAFqVvR1XVmSaPvtn9h7woUwwLw== X-Received: by 10.202.90.215 with SMTP id o206mr5836846oib.37.1489695926929; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v74sm2560468oie.3.2017.03.16.13.25.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: John Cowan Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:25:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UrGKF8OVetQO1QV4LPgsiCx3k3xLE68w5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:25:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UrGKF8OVetQO1QV4LPgsiCx3k3xLE68w5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="T8C08gdeUtS4sVIti2otPXd8CEFtaScev"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: John Cowan Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> In-Reply-To: --T8C08gdeUtS4sVIti2otPXd8CEFtaScev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/16 11:33, John Cowan wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Matthew A. Miller > > wrote: >=20 > While I am generally sympathetic to accommodation, I don't think th= ere > is support in the working group for expanding the allowed encodings= > beyond what RFC 7159 already stated. >=20 >=20 > Indeed, I will now go further. I am now in favor of saying "JSON SHALL= > be encoded in UTF-8", without further qualification. This is what > everybody actually does, and why shouldn't we say so? >=20 [ /me doffs hat ] To keep the change from being too drastic, I think it necessary to leave in the text forbidding a byte order mark. For completeness, the complete text for 8.1 would be: """ JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. """ That said, I'm not quite sure about going that far. The web certainly uses UTF-8 and no other, but the scope is greater than that. I would suggest keeping much of Peter's original text, with a small change to include the prohibition of encodings outside of UTF-8/-16/-32[1]: JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3), and MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations. There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. - m&m Matthew A. Miller [1] RFC 7159 used "SHALL", which RFC 2119 specifies the meaning to be identical to "MUST". --T8C08gdeUtS4sVIti2otPXd8CEFtaScev-- --UrGKF8OVetQO1QV4LPgsiCx3k3xLE68w5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYyvS1AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7DFQH/RLzhmNxqhmMFuFBzKFpbO0n 82SjZnymRnjgMYHOY3hDS6+uvODcZwzKBnsPhJOu5JY1pfF5eHIPfJPPfoHv38Da H1MXtI/FAK7Nca9R8e5rhGi5Rss23DxBXWdu7GRi1XA3ZX9WaqclIGYBM3JikRRD j0p+ZC+qKWm98HLlBfqKo3eQ9//xmZ/el02ozMjPQP5weCcbeEi3erP5ewtXquc0 ADyX0Z5pOVjZmJh0OsAiq9UgIH35JJfL2UzNoZZS3GTopMi8wZjO79VoJWIaPVLC A7iWxFVzSwfyqNG7O9RBJd2rdfFAMf2FcxzwVZztvvrIPcSPnzULeyRPlDAN8uA= =/4in -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UrGKF8OVetQO1QV4LPgsiCx3k3xLE68w5-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:33:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D147F129A58 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OlRbvfgEDagd for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8B72129A52 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.31] (142-254-101-176.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.101.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id v2GKWxPb038650 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 142-254-101-176.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [142.254.101.176] claimed to be [10.32.60.31] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Matthew Miller" Cc: "json@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:33:06 -0700 Message-ID: <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.6r5347) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:33:09 -0000 This whole thread feels like a regression from RFC 7159. The abstract of this document says: This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based interoperability guidance. Opening up to new encodings reduces interoperability. In addition: > 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the > encoding worthwhile? No. Adding a multi-step test that is easy to get wrong reduces interoperability. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:39:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6991C129A7E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R-kSjjunq-ll; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9428D129A5B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.116.59]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LZiQy-1cMwqn0g04-00lTiG; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:39:09 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , John Cowan References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:39:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:EynFoILOU8Vqn3VDH8tsWKx8bTrmO8/0fymzJPjGI8TxEY7CBOk jWnQ6WCRxgeyv5U3jwEpG6tAqEfY6ZqRR8lwM+BG64YN3X6E6PybpU6aaob0rbmVjLK4LAx QL8DAuUUM49XjDE+PNDN3DU/yDUMhvBanaKnHwyDa9XoLC0ReY40sB+suHGquIgIE2BBB6z VqeX40DC9h6AO8Mq7ye1w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:vjwoF9cyFNc=:xc7EJhIpuPQG0Dy4NIHPfv GJTJH89c8DW7zr8FMoDARMgnlCoqUn/XFde5FjEabq8ku8TwJ0KHID48Lgl3VJhqbdsJ7k4GL n4WpMHFnu337K8kgQ/pQRkwurM1n9f2xQMVVYb7BeDBKolyTjEKfMujRVoTeEixN4+V9uyUzh bqygp19w6lQaLnSpUDjXgnk+I2Kkg2BWecumOMa8A7iiMlkwqpA/xfz5sB4yVYctEXAyfD58N heJ/JjlWIQeuvAQFWPKbmXGrs2DZeGk2nf0AGzvknLHytr3AU+Xvm9NhvUk7LpN13CZdSm0gw Q5siyLDOvyqoEWN08XWmWPWQuwz+j9vbVI4zfS4b7BSVxewRm9l+0s0qlG49W9KeXcpTYTeIl wdrEa3m2b2IaQ9i0T2VjPsexrBE1U2wi4haL7bxzLxWmErrrRJUzJrkn3nir2dprjCV6XmvEK d8965KEneR2QhLDA06XcUms8SSIfH+M+mS38vw8e067oJ+YDxlyOe4KwfoHfwCf8Xm1vHPegp nQD1Y6SYYR/EFZ136DPy8kyeJYw8AADtV8PZz0lDEYUJ6MSzsbaJ9Ybc/MShp9UYfCNCghldy tJvAW10y2aroNeEvwgea4utx6VQSUG6IxygrV7H0hPBcvgvMwdHF/gPF6ioDLKT7wp9+3UDA4 FZ6DDY506bA+OkLWdiDeLUiHJV3siq29yJbYPjiFAZRQOs+TAcYU34BTxgr4K/zSuUjtJbIjB EeuTBY/uXnbblg/Utn012EQXIt+gytALqXUcO5J638nDsKSAlYl/9JZAJuSS8dEgAXHseHp0U G7bliiO Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:39:18 -0000 On 2017-03-16 21:25, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > ... > That said, I'm not quite sure about going that far. The web certainly > uses UTF-8 and no other, but the scope is greater than that. I would > suggest keeping much of Peter's original text, with a small change to > include the prohibition of encodings outside of UTF-8/-16/-32[1]: > > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3), and MAY > be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 > are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by > the maximum number of implementations. That's a normative change from RFC 7159, which, as you clarified below (thanks!), has a MUST-level requirement to use UTF-8/16/32. So this change actually allows other encodings (SHOULD != SHALL or MUST) without actually specifying how to interop with these (lacking an encoding declaration). So I'd say that's a non-starter. > There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts > in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if > the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. We can't prevent people from doing this, but, FWIW, it shouldn't be ok to label these payloads "application/json". Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:40:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0758A129A76 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zUpoH4pCF763 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3748129A5B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.116.59]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LlHsg-1cFpwp1fOQ-00b002; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:40:53 +0100 To: Paul Hoffman , Matthew Miller References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> Cc: "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:40:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:VUTSDFxTVlPC83JKmmS4JyD2CPBZHo3SvfH9wjQIGvi27TQhlrW vYxuYVVxY9G6RDogv4U/M5+tJ9nB/4yC3si3GshloJwZmO47A0mlzEpZWDKl/j7FWHYeetl uM1io4jjWLKsLN3PeQp3n8Lev4VflULmvOxt9bcV3xKA5rNx5TlduDkMsObBYocjwXtKzyj Jv2DkBRpCFqS/zZkRFe+Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:ZLU8en5s7dE=:hKUN2Cmcs3OWc1Zw7lvHDF RD74Gdzh6qe9YTprPT/cUhReO+3xo8gfQ8ZnuVgG8ZQlR9OL0HTKfZ0x6a0LQmQSU9+XKmBlE Y770CdJEWnhe6vY3wwZYM21/yeh+X0D/O4yAqQfWDGlTAxLdS8yJHJix396dABXqthIyyRY03 TM1GNfwgQwaMfH9JOxsl1ZjAYAIAwuOZEqsC6EAypErwsyUqLXicAG0WuYiQWi5ZKfCgWc7h6 KgJBlrPKfwvrJa8UbHF5nVUhJmYBqzFMjJdWvc7NZ3pPkBagiAEY2FhwLpNyqdFgPM+AoFhS9 GoRSFd39wEddQdWE9z5bL95J/efEWgM/aIOXwE0ijVDmV4cBHU9coqS7pWGj2k/Qwqldt4Tp4 NcAoksLOnYYm11w4if5qfE0olakZxUIyJ8hWXe0OtADgCxL59RUge4T+eDmHjQItcQF6nAFPA A4tJZuJGCh6eH86gJr5IB1PP43RDnu5tkzPTSc9SYypxbib8FcUUqBeGo8d1e1xRgF1Lk53t7 1cL+mEHqu1dTda5ZkkmQPDbdLtfrmHGVl52pIqzMKSvxntize3sQcL+YEXzcNr6xHhBndl/jK jXrJTJBBEdxsX9w0OdgPCqKrPM8annpfl2o58/HaBSUlanQddCn+MggodFtdRuPrKvnwUEB+f hSRl362M/dIi8r0MJYms4ehtKGoSpadn57OBvcMojnXJVDBl6n4lnFhcsyBKpU5gcioAHYq/a nl2evkEAM1SqakulL18r7Qmn5HFfznVFtTaRAaLE0MgCvgbFxcKjJpRiBlWqHBuQRpc3grq9C pJGS5B7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:40:58 -0000 On 2017-03-16 21:33, Paul Hoffman wrote: > This whole thread feels like a regression from RFC 7159. The abstract of > this document says: > > This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of > JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based > interoperability guidance. > > Opening up to new encodings reduces interoperability. +1 > In addition: > >> 1) Does the working group think adding any text on how to detect the >> encoding worthwhile? > > No. Adding a multi-step test that is easy to get wrong reduces > interoperability. -1 - this came up as unclear during IESG review, and it *is* unclear. If the media type doesn't have a charset parameter, the spec actually should state how detect the encoding. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:50:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EDD129A73 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rbEkYt_TIF4V for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x241.google.com (mail-ot0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34A4E129A67 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x241.google.com with SMTP id i1so9681946ota.3 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=C3gyD4tjiD0GQZlwNsRmi+FnPWkVebl72LwuyAlPN9Q=; b=jAE1LTxcsL7byl6L+BeGDuDk5P5K9QLP5HzDrh905HcreHT6q8K3DPpnBymRCyvtI9 TANSaWsZEANo+uQjpESECn/p0F1aEyVGtgCF6ZtB+QNbb7s/V6kD5LGFhfu/mBcTMeMM jmRRVqBXDbJSLaabjcphQDSuFr3uZ3DNNkBgcKj0GgyJLaO3Y0MD/OxtIW9FFQs9AldD XwFtDJdrkuhK+94jWP1Hf1E0YBKvNI+aQOHfmZp5Ko4kuXpOKZ3gIdmKdPkO/XO2NanU dCLgMq8Sz80FzTnisOvOxRY3WslDbFacIOp1S/EdVCW+e+oGVR/H5f0ZZKLPp28ztKaL IyBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=C3gyD4tjiD0GQZlwNsRmi+FnPWkVebl72LwuyAlPN9Q=; b=GeE8cKmR+b0UXsPrjZ2b4gHjQZhgXYhRSm+CroEHt4n3zDBxpxoChrvnKSJW5VQiMW iykkFhgkRtkNKbg3Inf88m20QvUWFh5siu14mgS0+tc213wZ1ujm2Xk2/QKn0KcKKWcj 72aQzP2QGLjf1FGkGHH0cpaIvVHALpcIe36+y6NggjOaSzwuBCC6BI0aRMpL3MpBbut3 1JTGOxRllgI5nuHuc4PI1Yg+sKQ88v/NK+XvJdiJnmWs7KUwqAGQz4I5E8vSlgNU1RgV UgK8o9yRzsZYmQWXYxddLeNRTO15WEKpRtpI9jyxFnTCYmHqusUvDcPw5NYWzOKj9kO/ ua3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3KoIs4G4Vd1by3QdZcxp23R7wJx2h46p4r0EsBi3F6Xc35zdBFG1U9dIY4PNNL3Q== X-Received: by 10.157.26.78 with SMTP id u14mr5538061otu.72.1489697407607; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v21sm2548015ota.26.2017.03.16.13.50.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , John Cowan Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:50:05 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="027arHhQ3HmGjtwx12RKua96RKjPl2TVT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:50:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --027arHhQ3HmGjtwx12RKua96RKjPl2TVT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="D5TWdxxG2iuPdhDq2wOx4RhIU7X2cepd7"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: Julian Reschke , John Cowan Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> In-Reply-To: --D5TWdxxG2iuPdhDq2wOx4RhIU7X2cepd7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/16 14:39, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-16 21:25, Matthew A. Miller wrote: >> ... >> That said, I'm not quite sure about going that far. The web certainly= >> uses UTF-8 and no other, but the scope is greater than that. I would >> suggest keeping much of Peter's original text, with a small change to >> include the prohibition of encodings outside of UTF-8/-16/-32[1]: >> >> JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3), and MAY= >> be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. JSON texts that are encoded in UTF= -8 >> are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully = by >> the maximum number of implementations. >=20 > That's a normative change from RFC 7159, which, as you clarified below > (thanks!), has a MUST-level requirement to use UTF-8/16/32. >=20 > So this change actually allows other encodings (SHOULD !=3D SHALL or MU= ST) > without actually specifying how to interop with these (lacking an > encoding declaration). >=20 > So I'd say that's a non-starter. >=20 >> There are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts >> in other encodings. JSON text MAY be encoded in other encodings if= >> the generator is sure that the intended parsers can read them. >=20 > We can't prevent people from doing this, but, FWIW, it shouldn't be ok > to label these payloads "application/json". >=20 > Best regards, Julian >=20 [ /me continues with no hat ] Then we're still at an impasse as far as multiple encodings go. As I personally see it, the only choices are: 1. Section 8.1 stays exactly as it is; or 2. Make the (normative) change to restrict the encoding to UTF-8 only. - m&m Matthew A. Miller --D5TWdxxG2iuPdhDq2wOx4RhIU7X2cepd7-- --027arHhQ3HmGjtwx12RKua96RKjPl2TVT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYyvp9AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7Wz4H/1gH7ChL8+DD6tWM7qcWLbH8 hX7aF371TRrTX+eIcIQzX5hGRK8tCwIrSTr/4qSoBetFkfT4QYYMJKzW7FGdaUTL BrTsHW27sjdtlRNN+Qst1lCTpx5RlsGS6Qq0DYrzqKYgkdN0ExS39GFchqlLOIgi F/jpGaGGCTFv5pakuY+SczOUGqUY63FPPDBgIoqx7NH2kUjEpp5yJAulVNQb+JP6 RMUleLpKYin1PJypy2HIhH3q4XR/s1VmzGlZvRJDMl1ycHvreRx5dBabA+r/6j7T r0I9ZJ/HLtQXoy3QfDYudcGDB4BrsOnO4/ivwpgVIC+14ysMlM9THawwjip0OLE= =T70U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --027arHhQ3HmGjtwx12RKua96RKjPl2TVT-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 14:08:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20895129A96; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:08:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pCOWJgID2LBM; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A869129A94; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.116.59]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MZfZi-1cVI1j26ww-00LXtH; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:08:05 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , John Cowan References: <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Cc: Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <32094243-0a95-54a5-1739-a733b5215a68@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:08:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Qe92PfJ8zasqBAK0pL/UoEwW5jJeb/elr9rpTryOQB0OQa0eMPs IuNXbZzAVs43xMvFUuyB70EhGRXSMbqlPXIYyje7vuAnvtZ2ev4ewcuHW5TWzj82olUVc/W 3PAEa38CXwDglw4zBnG5cSn0iCjKlgExrWxp16GDjMJzNj0PWB7d+GV5OJQcY3AIrSgMf7p bdtv+b8YvmxcOmf13C7jw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:vBMm9s6LuQc=:SLoCHFAut5o4TQr4te6dYu yClPw33Q16XfmHBlZyXGqL0xl/rNbzQ6psI9TQb19H33aJtVV7P0QSbUqHkAEkEAMRY5zioM1 +pVPi6qKxORQnFKUlqNQO+eoMRBlIK1/N5569H00oI0DzG47qS9NVE/44dABtnH5IJcEuDUe7 3DAAbUdW+8zH3t89dEGDm7MRwXBbEKMh7MqF6UaLBj033cKOO/ITZfUaOJ/O3AE0zS6i/2gt7 7nS957kPraBtgUSUNWK2IL9wO4cG3KvcWo43aXpItUqnuW2kyqbnY0w8d3G75ULHKQ0vcOYCt 6JqEw3Z6TfgRtWoYxcXFCx48sUBHS0cqzCdEhjAeIEHseNbN9sb2yYIVDmll9aGMga8NXhl+T Q8bO1OhjpuoDNUb2toJG7NYSNy734U/1wOovJa1JCkRiNe4cLwFdjLfEBqRGMo5aeh/Qt4XaP 3obpbunrU5aJxr/fJ6WA5xCJMlkks7gjYdDu21lpHena8h5zmVlg8qwxJ5SxH+wuQFb7Qe3Iw q142u3l6o/BoAinwnyeGhHwvP7el0vcZ5vVvN0HjZSZpsTpPiZM3X4ID1KD+q+4X6AXjIQkew vWPT9zSFO52t1hkgAfHN9w/zmlDYCyb1inOpoUFNgNpZuEdoQKPIrkbM/e2KXrkCIBoSwiqjf ODxUf4wt/M8RWrR8WybzzpnVSiQzyg5bPD8VAgxFrgNUV5AvPRhzWjkDL2IlJnJcLhERCRJwu J4iJAoWjzyHTBtYbICl8/VIYYwtT0IRMtE3224uzvV/b8OeBQLzz/inbU/GFEwqw62YttoyeU l4Zo7CE Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:08:13 -0000 On 2017-03-16 21:50, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > ... > [ /me continues with no hat ] > > Then we're still at an impasse as far as multiple encodings go. As I > personally see it, the only choices are: > > 1. Section 8.1 stays exactly as it is; or > 2. Make the (normative) change to restrict the encoding to UTF-8 only. > ... I disagree that these are the only choices. My proposal is to leave the normative bits exactly as they were before, and just to explain detection better. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 16 14:19:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B7C129A9E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:19:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0mEQApIJigyt; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E570B129A99; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE1530005C2E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:19:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=1XczZKhc6ahnp1 9sC1jvoo1EncM=; b=lFEiDvLD8zt6fvJ954WpPnV+t1WFDOM02iUVxhbiXoRNpX 5qU9DIjs2C2Z824BZd0BHshD3lB2ZRjc/juLwW+m4oskQ2dHORY9ZKCXN2HZKpRC sKotPeabY0ojOT0kLf3Jp0G6KaKeXg4OLpBW53kBtLNyp6xhr2jHaLliTMjhc= Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0576330005C2C; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:19:28 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , John Cowan , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" , Peter Cordell , Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <20170316211927.GB7490@localhost> References: <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> <32094243-0a95-54a5-1739-a733b5215a68@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <32094243-0a95-54a5-1739-a733b5215a68@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:19:34 -0000 On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:08:06PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-16 21:50, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > >... > >[ /me continues with no hat ] > > > >Then we're still at an impasse as far as multiple encodings go. As I > >personally see it, the only choices are: > > > >1. Section 8.1 stays exactly as it is; or > >2. Make the (normative) change to restrict the encoding to UTF-8 only. > >... > > I disagree that these are the only choices. > > My proposal is to leave the normative bits exactly as they were before, and > just to explain detection better. +1 We might not get consensus on this, in which case Matt's (1) is best. From nobody Thu Mar 16 14:29:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36493129A9C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSmwgTfdlpyM for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96D7E129AA2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29718 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2017 21:22:33 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 16 Mar 2017 21:22:33 +0000 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , John Cowan References: <0d3258fa-0f9d-cc5d-06d7-fcba943349ad@gmx.de> <0631d12c-f447-8904-6e2d-81e02cc6e8d3@codalogic.com> <1e075450-d958-db9c-ae63-3cbf3733024c@outer-planes.net> <1F1D1DCB-767F-490D-A425-AB5E66D51D3E@tzi.org> <1f87f5d4-cbb0-9350-2d08-31350fa7438d@gmx.de> <24d37dc6-eee2-5e0c-6d33-d3450750e886@codalogic.com> <2b6f5439-18d1-9b7b-97e9-c683187ce452@codalogic.com> <7aaceb7a-45e9-b330-beee-fb66f933b3c9@outer-planes.net> <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Cc: Julian Reschke , draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis.all@ietf.org, "json@ietf.org" From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: <84c01197-3690-f7d5-2a11-533998197757@codalogic.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:29:49 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <942f4af5-ddb9-ed39-0013-6b75c3a8078c@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] secdir review of draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-03 [rfc7159bis scope] X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:29:56 -0000 On 16/03/2017 20:25, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > To keep the change from being too drastic, I think it necessary to leave > in the text forbidding a byte order mark. > > For completeness, the complete text for 8.1 would be: > > """ > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). > > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark to the beginning of a > JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations > that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark > rather than treating it as an error. > """ > > That said, I'm not quite sure about going that far. The web certainly > uses UTF-8 and no other, but the scope is greater than that. I would > suggest keeping much of Peter's original text, with a small change to > include the prohibition of encodings outside of UTF-8/-16/-32[1]: I'm wondering, is it 'legally' permissible for the first paragraph of 8.1 to be something along the lines of: JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 [UNICODE] (Section 3). JSON text associated with the application/json MIME media type MUST be encoded in UTF-8. ??? Cheers, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd From nobody Sat Mar 18 12:26:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D245112940E for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IBf0bWKX43Os for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14EE1126C83 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id m27so53440577iti.0 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:references:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=w0EfJHPkuMPiXoos+106VcDDkO/t32WKGxzDQhbn0EE=; b=t7KyXX149RHmKoi+BYr+iyNlHzIn3ptxsS989bdzGaKSvxVhxmCPZPcguvCai89bBI cHcebLaWEKSR6AYuO8/0iAe/GfN+vLUVhbWKbcafoUsM3H1yJgYhJWrZ/CHYRqOwiEYe 055YqMaZKwp1G/M3f/qNUbG32IKuIfL9Ron5hDuaxGwcOVT3GOXB6WuCogTFpAnLaLrS L8DBGWbwUKTis7TlWSgAd8gUZHhOMFhqmDxTE0pmHxhyQlumgYWI11X2GFibJULvQ7FK eKpGwBaskJSwnmF8eP9XRFnB+QANFZTBa+vadENqruRFGNqEq+OY/fo0P0fU3tt3BDQw 8oZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:references:to:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=w0EfJHPkuMPiXoos+106VcDDkO/t32WKGxzDQhbn0EE=; b=DU8tAbo4fd3k/u2yOueBVeZ/pzzmpvz5nAMIYf/6SzHeQ4FOWfkGuPscUn5CmwilU8 9suvTV3oxyokqLeGR53BokeS5/fukqHxY6Ux8QjtQNB6YWEyyxlFJAplsOc1e3OgIXL6 5m7FHHYKY3bE1yoPx2pQWkVvOOb8WOX9eBP799JwjlMxVlMBgQ2dI21wdcFav4pasjNu CnJF6R7YdlZAKHdZYh4+9l7nE1jvFoBpm2CRkPxfpq7uh+dWx3YuBDyyqw+C2k2LBvWo Qb6/7Jng7w17o9YCY4+2uUbdx9ozmQjq5XIvoP8CHyBtk5nqIhOPqKpC6zQBJuuhnMEB OGMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2eB7v6zmOF4sg/1Og1F7po5JKyCTzrTYB3c/erLcIMTZfyUGJIwaX0dxnrg3fh+Q== X-Received: by 10.36.163.201 with SMTP id p192mr105079ite.102.1489865214976; Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.29.239] (c-73-217-32-196.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.217.32.196]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 12sm2817758itl.31.2017.03.18.12.26.53 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> To: "json@ietf.org" From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 13:26:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OFjk417MH3POuuGHvmlCm4pWluG4LjnCT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:26:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --OFjk417MH3POuuGHvmlCm4pWluG4LjnCT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NpmoKTLquRsNl65BdFT0KwvOE0EWhXChJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> --NpmoKTLquRsNl65BdFT0KwvOE0EWhXChJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello JSONbis, After a lengthy discussion about encoding, I see no consensus on a change. Therefore, the current text for Section 8.1 will remain as it is= =2E Thank you all, - m&m Matthew A. Miller JSONbis Chair --NpmoKTLquRsNl65BdFT0KwvOE0EWhXChJ-- --OFjk417MH3POuuGHvmlCm4pWluG4LjnCT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYzYn9AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7jewIAINbaHe2jVPbfkNDgCwHSS+p HtKnQ1StmVBGXM6ka3KhdX6Tnjm6SgZeTL8hq0KedgSl27jRumvpVpCosrr8FKVo FiJ7UydP+1M54+X42NsE1bqLU3cgaIWHFpc8P/cfzwkSc7Ami+it3k54+izJSH/M 90CGhpLZo1IT0gmI8EPvq87T6FtgWS5Mq7hrBWWmOO93MnrD5vpfq4F6fL13GouZ vVhA5v5YFbJmsxPcW0Pn/oDHAvBYKbT4H0CXcFJz0PD5nileHITXEoND5T8qXlE0 U4e292dHRDFz5zta6yGh79gsLR+BJcL5S4t8PuDeMhJTjF+MqdA3kp7c/N+u214= =AFfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OFjk417MH3POuuGHvmlCm4pWluG4LjnCT-- From nobody Sun Mar 19 02:25:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840BE129486; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 02:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xcYL43wN9xZA; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 02:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A16F7124217; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 02:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.105.94]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1WHV-1bwsAN1b57-00tUf5; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 10:25:06 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> Cc: The IESG From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 10:25:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:uBpke1fmUveThxwfaEmFDWnPV8ZsclgZtgpfUbHbkZU63cX03CA U2tjX/Jmp2pQ8OXbHy86/rvPQI/AVi78W/t/pATZHX55k/fZ5dBclk3IDXEmMFpalzEhOUj 5Wcz0L2ZmYcw0eR122UXA+ECxRDkxs5FM7j6GvmUpgVVSz6tZJ3UQKODIhb1Z+abYOz2PjL sBPUVxwD6SfpHLthgrXuw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:kDX4vTrzAxA=:69ZLjKDKrRDaQ7Mpy9MqLm 8I4L/GPADQAbO5E1lMW6Slyf/ZAO2GHq6uCgEhXo9qilHMYYfCTFbQIIWpLu6P/kmKjZXihp0 dl6cu2BUMszzGETLZ+87+ndHwtbccySLnyo6ubfiUklqqCPECP+lhGiW4ogAO0lYcHe1/rv/6 8HJr90o19uuelZhtLiNM1ojJmE5nUfJ0C+HNGgCqLkE1wsHxyc+1gd9XEuF/iqmPcShJu5vzh fxGAEyDO8P7J+dNBsGFrEqS9TqhNtjOuyCJ2YbnPOWlBefdDQzYpU5hx8qAd6TT89CgK/QXSu Ugt6T3j1x82LHY5NJy4gYZkh8Uc6ou4Dica6syC2KHehd9VUZ/Q05Np2LnjsNafaCCag++//9 1enWqswwIiS7JdSDEF23NiABocOv4Lb2I3ZfDrnp3Z+cBX5pmkBaakj06IxrQiIlmiPpc3kMD 0PC/o6Zhb0eGyHyPEzjzhOJMSu8kt84qqUXO2PIfsiV+2RdvSPwwQDivNogGBzygFObkIxY6U JbA7oIf+8FZA3yHM/vwCgyd+N0HkdukPu1UTLhoTWrw5oAJd259cTlQzXSAPOEC9SEcTCus2j 1QAQhevZp+cSgM1g/dDnTDC5cb0aGkmvmXAjMTFHTYWGvpQrh2Luy9T3g5K/2QWaTP4+6l+Xp 7SyZamBaX7fBGqTocuBNxIcDmFuKtrhUMw1R3j9o0IW0TL5POxnkw1I+/jEAumOVyRzdTzrkv b/wNeZ5KF7KF9Cd44R8gYB4vPhFoa9lsbb1UB8bblK8kzGTSDdc7TDk9EfGibyVJM3z1NRaiH zOvHIp0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 09:25:11 -0000 On 2017-03-18 20:26, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > Hello JSONbis, > > After a lengthy discussion about encoding, I see no consensus on a > change. Therefore, the current text for Section 8.1 will remain as it is. > > > Thank you all, A very big -1 on this. I agree there was no consensus on a normative change, but I heard many people agreeing that we could clarity here. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Mar 19 03:29:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E30120724; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 03:29:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GnMwDKZFzym3; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 03:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD5C81201FA; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 03:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.105.94]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MB1C4-1cxHKc0UmC-009xu5; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:29:34 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> Cc: The IESG From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:29:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qX5bH9K6bTJS34FOz3rb/Nm6Zqu+O6HMcXn3hsCqP7coGG2v4wF J/M1XiQUD8faQbcSAzxXyBVvtZMEvtt2rJLYXmf6SdG5dzw8WMZdDY2bS2yLAUbCDucoNYh fv0NTklIqCfX/QfTEwB16tpRdB+mMs9fYCJQXxziacdZVkufdjGXhcb5p/boP1+0tNVyEYi fOY6NtiZylkAVpOjOgFrQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:NKxzqpMndvI=:Gv6bGp2mqgkx6n579xY/Zg X2eMhybLPXb0TeI9YZne1sRMxlfmi0iVpLMUro4s3poWGK5ymW8tOXXdMty64ek33NH5nhlwv YGt/8Z2u2G4lGkfXgvuhfnfHUFsgjC529fsiq/3Cr3ly3qg2sfl7AwmH6dU/VXu0CPJMxbWPw cFQ+HsVKbUyCQ6xHh8rKR1YsCIk1ZwFG7KkmQkwEvWOsDPSqU7UgCDPqXI7u7BmEVxucgedJF R4wIgXts3u+LkRBSflGz9fomEwnl+NgWVmHAqDSvuiMAb/urWdppcM2QArxFSb0LHwvxcreEv oe0FRUpYG2wzxlZlXbGT7vr+iXHs/RCspM6I0byLEoCYWPNCi5xDi5YQiiiigjyHtIjS6/k7R Zii5RZgBVOHEf27H0mqiajKgy6Z+Va74wmqmBSa1Xoc1fy+DOU6MmMXSEIL63dPaVHSdhzJbm i5911Up7aGETw0lQg/N9lwxKEBj7H2IvkL5LDc/cpgMYhnih1mlT701xF676rlMys+jex/l09 kluAZCAvdGrJ0Vq5DALhQMllUpBeuCUgqVErP3RSJhLujIgYbvbA833zjB4CqE1UHmlSDTWUq N4sSzg9FaaStvqtbgNikDLikLS0GpM/GLQ+xm8GdZbYThmK6deUWO0cEIBT3pvkAoFsqfVhyW xEG5kWO4GRWvTWj3u7XBTgKwIzkglEB65p9B387A7dc930srinauoI8wIo1FzsCUMWHXRO1gT DNbWt8wg98NYWaQVZrHX9x1vCa3ERSrF6iqNevUny17GHftahaHOisEbhhtpoSnrykAU14PyB ANht/2E Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 10:29:40 -0000 ...and here is a concrete proposal: Original text: > 8.1. Character Encoding > > JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] > (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are Change 1: Say "MUST" instead of "SHALL", as it's the more common form of expressing this requirement. Change 2: Replace "[UNICODE] (Section 3)" by "Section 3 of [UNICODE]". That said, this citation isn't as stable as it should, as [UNICODE] refers to and unless I'm missing something, there's no guarantee that future versions will have the relevant bits in Section 3. > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Change 3: Add "Text encoded in character encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 can not be used with the media type "application/json". (this explains the implications of the SHALL/MUST) > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the > beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, > implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a > byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. Finally, change 4: Add a new paragraph: "Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact that the first character will always have a Unicode code point less or equal than 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls." I believe none of these changes affects anything normative, but that they absolutely clarify the spec. In particular, having them in the spec would have avoided this whole discussion we just had. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Mar 19 06:35:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCD71294A1; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 06:34:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4kh2YFQ5OzFI; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78E1E1294A0; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2JDYmUf013594; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:34:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vmKnN1c37zDHfx; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:34:48 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:34:47 +0100 Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" , The IESG X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511623287.077834-7c891667d71faca4e67b48f0e6e19a12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:34:54 -0000 On 19 Mar 2017, at 11:29, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > concrete proposal Maybe we can build consensus on this text change, as it is not a = normative change. (I=E2=80=99d rather have some additional change that makes UTF-8 the = SHOULD, which I also sensed a good level of consensus for.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Mar 19 08:50:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98701294E9; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97QK3FD4ivhS; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32F55128616; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.105.94]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LyVcA-1cAIo21LNO-015uLT; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:49:52 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" , The IESG From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <3d049dd1-9d8b-59f0-6996-906213860d2c@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:49:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:QM0y1/GR4LdOo6+6EyCjG1Wi47NrEf+lPn1JA8oErEZI3pB+1j3 bqCN0bcZOVczwNH2+Yj6WOxh1fFGlPpJZHMTUcjTUBpnJnwCIsxy5Wn02eVk8sMy3LvX68A 2Houf0a+Zy29cNPxwpRiznBEJZfUNANFcRLcirvWW0P7HGashWQwoPm3/VpPrqJLStGU/Y8 lzmwWO6dDfdrRqTehwI0Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:eCWcXek4X90=:Yc11ne2N3kj2coULogpOL7 qippHAeheEGp0VP8l1gIOhPe/t4SCjbphK9Z+rZUQl3wteq2FbAhWzjIBqB2HUdRLjTuJLm/z mOE92WyunQNuYe1wj8urPSxxA2SyRluewD0gjl3KCs+S31iDCs9SXF37UZbLqaYr8dtihfzhM 27nsnTYP2O8fcTBef6Tjb0Pkl4yxnUcvbHttbiPklEi20t/3GpB/pu026HIyPMij10WKFusPY iYfaWm73YnPbDK097+oxWUOAlpp9uY/VYpJKle7EsCOy9fg+We8iOJdP5s5n2pplfzpU8xGaT edA4tIHh64JMGITx50g6a7v7XNQIA9S/LPbHvgFsZAeLpPL7XD7vmn/iOOp3IGbQi+oma1ulR Vtwhj3nAN1L+6nQa/qBJRJxFe1DAUd6DNnFwe3EeuUPiOrOsa7u+WXwF+Rldu94uRgCY4m3Z2 6Zq5HdMNcsv8MRB1gtny6P0g6rSDGXHia7YeXI7WZT6WpBnYLOO3h5XEOcaNNiQyMYMGw4+Bm On0SDd79P9E0/py6u1ut/tcd4ixEUTvguaxo3zCnC18lMi/Ph2/FB7tjAr4GylGX51++9rANw ib9ps6NysG/alOOVw073yew9t4XaSx3HwdfB5WqvgDE7pOan++oL2L0Ys/0FtZ6g3SA13fKXK KeMx5SCmH3jvkmrU4/iChY6ioUfyvDj8jP6B/q7Xp+jGuvCeO8St490wuXKyOTzGWo0BsjFs/ WhlkBDsiA+maow6Ai/A36DoZD17Dez+ZNZXrn8fDf6ANYgTav+ZDpBHqASqDdQmu/H320AyuQ TD3E3nr Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:50:10 -0000 On 2017-03-19 14:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 19 Mar 2017, at 11:29, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> concrete proposal > > Maybe we can build consensus on this text change, as it is not a normative change. > > (I’d rather have some additional change that makes UTF-8 the SHOULD, which I also sensed a good level of consensus for.) > > Grüße, Carsten I'm sympathetic to that, but it IMHO would mean to have another Last Call. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 20 09:26:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14011294D4 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id acvMwBi0Z4zU for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x241.google.com (mail-ot0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D76881286AB for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x241.google.com with SMTP id x37so19821046ota.1 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=UgQyLafM06MkwyOQVd08E8fdO3EPurKgh1XUOOn6uxo=; b=OrznMIy6VEq8CRhkn0YkhtGUfX67pZ771ns2ORvM6iQ2fj1zkqQ7G0OtMBZHUcxKNd 4nh1FdNPU20IiA5U98SyHmuR1TNMGBkpWXEQ/NbZAH5/L313TqsJAZ1OMjCUG8wirU3Q ovOiqqHpiHFZycZnDsLJauKESYBKZltOQ/BAcGuehRw22DaAW8+jpveyTprhFJdgUlKD BG4prszrg1ErNFdAEQJzGqg0bhHyj/vAnSxoVmNfnAdp7lHvSKwXxUdiZAZtOQ1tsUjm xwatg9B5xqkJdv0ToedWR3ACby192sywROCJbNygxO4EtOMGrADbRg2mQKStY4lTBnn4 6AEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=UgQyLafM06MkwyOQVd08E8fdO3EPurKgh1XUOOn6uxo=; b=Dps1PnCS7k/WM2+tWjlNyAk/rfqdEvc5wkIM2me77e9NNhg2TS25U4TARYl5w8ZX6h 9moHjA5KOdBu5U1FYPnTf4TYbMdHGi9NaCs7N814uAzveIr38NojRiUrVRlKLby3Gw0p zepXvTwJoS5qsAEgv0ACN6cPJTb7bBThYpk1kowpgCY1jvDQd5kE9JoZ+9BInqkY/iAI TNI3i1MF77leH0Q69/zZmeAzFuNB+xOpMNN427Yxosxr9w6J/PlBxNXJ2xiiyg5R/LKW o/2qXFQtmdZZIycnGDoBHVUqp5SH+WlN5u6vW8wKehfD3XtNMpWFNemEZhHiLQNbnpks vGBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0KjFFhrRsHXqi4Wwmx+Mo734ur5VOCUaq2Hwq+zxOXCk3NmywwOKxy5oW2SHpnDg== X-Received: by 10.157.89.143 with SMTP id u15mr14942469oth.176.1490027182226; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.23.170] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q31sm2917179ota.6.2017.03.20.09.26.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" Cc: The IESG References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:26:20 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HtUvPglAb1StOSRo7i7X66880bAHT0a5I" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:26:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HtUvPglAb1StOSRo7i7X66880bAHT0a5I Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="On5omHJORfTvpt8Mb4DoRi4chJl9G98ht"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" Cc: The IESG Message-ID: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: --On5omHJORfTvpt8Mb4DoRi4chJl9G98ht Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the suggested changes, Julian. To consolidate the changes, I believe the following is your suggested text for all of Section 8.1: """ JSON text MUST be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of [UNICODE]. The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Text encoded in character encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 cannot be used with the media tye "application/json". Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact that the first character will always have a Unicode code point less or equal than 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. """ Does the working group object to this change? - m&m Matthew A. Miller JSONbis Chair On 17/03/19 04:29, Julian Reschke wrote: > ...and here is a concrete proposal: >=20 > Original text: >=20 >> 8.1. Character Encoding >> >> JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 [UNICODE] >> (Section 3). The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that ar= e >=20 > Change 1: >=20 > Say "MUST" instead of "SHALL", as it's the more common form of > expressing this requirement. >=20 > Change 2: >=20 > Replace "[UNICODE] (Section 3)" by "Section 3 of [UNICODE]". >=20 > That said, this citation isn't as stable as it should, as [UNICODE] > refers to and unless I'm > missing something, there's no guarantee that future versions will have > the relevant bits in Section 3. >=20 >> encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be >> read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there a= re >> many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other >> encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). >=20 > Change 3: >=20 > Add "Text encoded in character encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or > UTF-32 can not be used with the media type "application/json". >=20 > (this explains the implications of the SHALL/MUST) >=20 >=20 >> Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the >> beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, >> implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a >> byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. >=20 >=20 > Finally, change 4: >=20 > Add a new paragraph: >=20 > "Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 can= > do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact that the > first character will always have a Unicode code point less or equal tha= n > 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the firs= t > octets for nulls." >=20 >=20 > I believe none of these changes affects anything normative, but that > they absolutely clarify the spec. In particular, having them in the spe= c > would have avoided this whole discussion we just had. >=20 > Best regards, Julian --On5omHJORfTvpt8Mb4DoRi4chJl9G98ht-- --HtUvPglAb1StOSRo7i7X66880bAHT0a5I Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY0AKsAAoJEOz0ck4QngW79aAIAKE+GAjuMLd8qD7lJtr/qhuU zvINbf5Ki1hcactL6Oi9znNHPiLBYX2L310iNcJSSVLej/st8kKgst4RKfjL8Kvd JkwOpHcdud1f1vmwF1wSpcqsdQ5HO/YMGe+Utuar260oSHw+loE9ZLRTvsWB/z/J 8YBjZSMU4iNPMf0u2GqWvB4EdvFuOZ5lJllbtwmku16RXzFGpiw+q8jlT0fj46LS k2Xmil9Wt6RYsajeWtjaP1XG9JyhFEIb0IDCXCWIk1vvWUQQ7hpuEO5LfvQ4HBgP UrmEj8U6m1nRZs2mbArepXKeBmDWLpETcG8td0wkS0pIXkUBpkF45Vl7fR36Jzs= =vwwq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HtUvPglAb1StOSRo7i7X66880bAHT0a5I-- From nobody Mon Mar 20 09:44:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22171294D8 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncRFB21UOzE8 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD1BE1294D4 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id u48so96304472wrc.0 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xkqu2kbDkx7sMBWVNvBMRRmhRnJH3tLbY+edBQqYSLs=; b=WUUrqkHoGqIryU/NKlS7ijoDCi5IvMBWB6UmyZ9QfTtcl0lZgy4nOqST4M2da8OoNE u7hmY94BvRlf5xPSvN7CObciNZ24StdxDb3+kcKZ1PlLxqYkW58CgqzVE6ckCLTlJjKH zE6owmZMM0gmOS+rVjSTXyQBziu5L2JWk1GTeF1uL1TYyc3Rk8pLgcwvKTTzw9RVUJz6 p736dr510P5DRm6psz6Z4/UiibUMxuc/5Xa0l+1vFYv77palhZY29bxDXDBr5wbssNTg Y+SyD3i3HhVkI4bPaGUwUd+USCuNCYSWEPsIHhl62NNl8wNX0p/xp57qzvrOscw2J+EZ BHhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xkqu2kbDkx7sMBWVNvBMRRmhRnJH3tLbY+edBQqYSLs=; b=ReT0B8kH93OiuiCVoph+wvqN8NiF0TigIEzHoEOnI1a/LjkigSLwT/+QTebZItoP0W m0F7ou4AuBRokRnTwF2JCAvPi5Vt8miWjPwFbELZr0QdacI9TOgM/x1/Xd1xPPoE1KCr D1cFeWdMfG96OPd1/OjGVyXNRHAoFgaUx0O10CxpXE6w9e8TV6xffvZtRJuJT+0XdGwQ +pBiojFAALBzqMs68DC8vSi9rpUhbUuWy8iuzHwx3s3K5gLS2ebn4kHhUj4A9DkElKjX JP747gWlMyKLXdmw1D8gye8686+b075EQZmwiwV1MldwHr/dgDFmzi7/GoglP7xcQy9M /lAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H26pzQt7D4uW9QOeDX9O3gjhAqxAS9NTNz0/hs4ijYTOLuxP6ZH4Ed43YFL1Xyyx/hiAyGzWjTkjGiIZA57 X-Received: by 10.223.152.215 with SMTP id w81mr29247472wrb.151.1490028276276; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> From: John Cowan Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:44:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Matthew A. Miller" Cc: Julian Reschke , "json@ietf.org" , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c36a61cf36a054b2c3e77 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:44:41 -0000 --001a113c36a61cf36a054b2c3e77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Matthew A. Miller < linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote: JSON text MUST be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of > [UNICODE]. The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Text encoded in character > encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 cannot be used with > the media tye "application/json". > > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the > beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, > implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a > byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. > > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact > that the first character will always have a Unicode code point less > or equal than 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by > inspecting the first octets for nulls. > Two minor corrections: for "media tye" read "media type", and for "less than or equal to 127" read "greater than 0 and less than 128". -- John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Fundamental thinking is ha-ard. Let's go ideology-shopping. --Philosopher Barbie --001a113c36a61cf36a054b2c3e77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Matthew A. Miller <<= a href=3D"mailto:linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net" target=3D"_blank">linuxwo= lf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote:

JSON text MUST= be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of
[UNICODE].=C2=A0 The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are
encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be
read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are
many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other
encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32).=C2=A0 Text encoded in character
encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 cannot be used with
the media tye "application/json".

Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the
beginning of a JSON text.=C2=A0 In the interests of interoperability,
implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a
byte order mark rather than treating it as an error.

Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8
can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact
that the first character will always have a Unicode code point less
or equal than 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by
inspecting the first octets for nulls.

Two mino= r corrections: for "media tye" read "media type", and f= or
"less than or equal to 127" re= ad "greater than 0 and less than 128".

--
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.= org
Fundamental thinking is ha-ard.=C2= =A0 Let's go ideology-shopping.
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 --Philosopher Barbie

--001a113c36a61cf36a054b2c3e77-- From nobody Mon Mar 20 09:46:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4D11294F0; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWHSe65v3SK3; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B70871314B7; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.38] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M6ioC-1bw8580bPo-00wWPH; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:46:34 +0100 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Cc: The IESG From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:46:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:avt/yioG2s13qvTgCwuSJzeaHoYrm7M0G27QJc6xuAZrrcS53hI /C2KXO7UJsNkyn0k1ve9n9+sqOcU3hrHn0vYA6xu5oUi7Kiv0pD7TfllwCaY2wbebmeRmmV vRCwHqA3RMb9MZW6sNqAbS1ZWHp/X9sn35bCO2eslP8XGwjjEyw5/c3gahzkXFqIHIsTdlc h5CjAGJp/d/qjctFlfUHw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:EvLhK2fMETU=:M+IWF3dwbDgeb+Y0YBCUvC 53KQrLrJh848R4XhDMprSyFoQMWXHHxZfUEoqvqLFsZh6zkMMR5W+AIkFRFEdEjDiEVrCi7EF KEE1NGTI2bkH99J88YHu3qTpxPhurUbmJgjC7YOP5YaV3UrOqgPFwJ3LsFwJwSX651nZ2+70C SpGQbipry+kh7HJSJ8dwhHpjDRazRfLgZrBIO4DsHKw4sjTLplGKzqu2UM7cxQR5ulUISWzc/ XtYctjSthHA3OclIBJQZM9wm4jjG8cFGNeBsRPTwbI0sYpsvmhMHXXAW9QwSPYIGJPKcZ8x0d IDgdVcpvVKcLqgo1yrrUH2dL38HBIPKuktv3pqLv3LaE4gXpoeJMT8b0M5dPi9L2U/wAVWDp3 s4PJTCCJ05l3Dqhmr98yzFY125ZrPpEyA37fvw9e0a2YyRYYEB6KZOH/X1c2a0zUSS4rp9Tr1 1kp53Kljbcbl0VMQRa7jDnL3cp/sU/YKJZdZ/1cdnVMcsGCeC6MWYMgkRoJ2QcO7mt0QMwEbd AzpvIMg2HY6QAdiQEBR4X19IFZQPxT2ob3jlo8Wi4Lv9vQUJ00jZtAzVJ+lWZZvLPjpMo0p4i mdT/0bvnvyJYnZaW62+xeXagzrmbirBTlF/30TEk0MSFwA+LIpDvoxxVWUBgZJHe13WsSOn/c uY6xExSBH6fMlCgMWcF4FrOoOiOMQqI2qJPVIc172JYeTXqpn3pzYiU614W7U8VYJ3uCEohm1 X2a1cLMnZ+GMZep46VMahUc6YR6QPjTcZAFqrIKT8/BryOCQ3cvnyeGsDgpbdCNInYzb9MIgd AHoY51r Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:46:39 -0000 On 2017-03-20 17:26, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > Thank you for the suggested changes, Julian. To consolidate the > changes, I believe the following is your suggested text for all of > Section 8.1: > > """ > JSON text MUST be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of > [UNICODE]. The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are Put "Section 3 of Unicode" into parentheses. > encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be > read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are > many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other > encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Text encoded in character Replace "in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32)" by just "in other encodings". The proposed text implies that there encodings other than UTF-16 or UTF-32 which could be allowed. > encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 cannot be used with > the media tye "application/json". > > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the > beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, > implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a > byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. > > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact > that the first character will always have a Unicode code point less > or equal than 127, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by > inspecting the first octets for nulls. > """ > > Does the working group object to this change? +1, with the comments above. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Mar 20 10:59:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557C013163A for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fvmR6qYgvGz9 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732DA13163C for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19382 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2017 17:50:45 +0000 Received: from host109-158-230-32.range109-158.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.158.230.32) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 20 Mar 2017 17:50:45 +0000 To: Julian Reschke , "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Cc: The IESG From: Peter Cordell Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:58:03 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:59:10 -0000 On 20/03/2017 16:46, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2017-03-20 17:26, Matthew A. Miller wrote: >> encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be >> read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are >> many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other >> encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Text encoded in character > > Replace "in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32)" by just "in > other encodings". The proposed text implies that there encodings other > than UTF-16 or UTF-32 which could be allowed. If that's what you want, instead of: there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Or: there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other encodings. I think it would be even clearer to say: there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. Regards, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Rules for Describing JSON Content, http://json-content-rules.org From nobody Mon Mar 20 11:02:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810731315BF; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:02:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pDD1MtGJjqC; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D7C51315C3; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.118.230]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MS1g6-1ck4Yj0kVm-00TFaV; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 19:02:11 +0100 To: Peter Cordell , "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Cc: The IESG From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <0183ee8b-962e-8006-1b50-ea8f8e21fcd4@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 19:02:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:OwI/qzoNjJccJIeN4HRANDzUwBA3CMEBMcVqaDmNtRIH+oRU0DB fr6DNgSwRf7FOyWbVFgPJClhSHE7F4pJauV3zr4/oT+mxYHu9wZzLkvLY5N4w5JSsDRLnLE C/qSLok8gNRNTvEZkuZabjCcX/aqxQ7mkG04JK34WvOBBMFnJjcsg4L0d0LA5SI6ptS/IGQ V0mdaTfGItIq1mwaaDMTw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:JGZIsolWXKY=:tCFVNKfi63W3mH+Bl6I6TI chUNCldtiibtTQB5t0U1IehM9MlxvfmosV0DJR3PTD4IHOQ9bNIUCPXEuSqZl6/tRKfZMA89b q9jhfmgWy0Mvk+JBESDoLKuKdrH5D7LI5XIKyEgR8/Fe7Uc9gP0GzvWgKrL9iYwpsJ3Fp3fmL DXkKClVbneQpcZmmQ7mZaXbQYMZrbZ2ZaGZAH0akixtu+TT8wsUMhN+KEZOjvp9FyftT5il/C 4g0ZTd+IdZXhmTPpUnVd41gWG8QrwT4MAolFNGdsre1Y0P1LqIgy6piV/l0qzuv1AXl0F+uIv mRMohIBZivV3HznkNA58eC63JtgBkLOphmEuAPw+3Ih3p7k6P7vEakZUgDcZ5GqImCNXapzYP mjJu2MpVBc9ZGUJXlYKjoGq4tgmuEk5RRORO1il3BieUqK6bUS1pRCKcaSXMQZ9buwApjO1/8 FCVJOL5FKm105CIruHKhsBC/3M9+AT5hHqoxa7LbH5TkHIS/PbcLG8w7qlAKCiT1hCmM78Gp9 zrIrphfEcB0IQcaBrCepsy9mfByv3skcU8Ggr8xeB6CkDl9m54kETmhyOskPaPrze8j5Iw82S 0L1pbZOq34LQzrid/tTkAIFMykuNGEmAcTtUMA9UorPsw2K7afZsJmGQfm0514U1YexlNFUr4 7+ULGk5DLZ5FQExKlEpJxhWWsMobrXioT5RbvfgnG4LGHRoy4EOx+8jz4fPKCKcGcBshPk9XS +2i8qcuv/Rjr0xUFXoH8Z4+HvE7tL2D5neHJOw2hKnyy+os+qTDHLxyac/lwWPB6/M/SuECRU FqyGtjz Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:02:20 -0000 On 2017-03-20 18:58, Peter Cordell wrote: > On 20/03/2017 16:46, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2017-03-20 17:26, Matthew A. Miller wrote: >>> encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be >>> read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are >>> many implementations that cannot successfully read texts in other >>> encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). Text encoded in character >> >> Replace "in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32)" by just "in >> other encodings". The proposed text implies that there encodings other >> than UTF-16 or UTF-32 which could be allowed. > > If that's what you want, instead of: > > there are many implementations that cannot successfully read > texts in other encodings (such as UTF-16 and UTF-32). > > Or: > > there are many implementations that cannot successfully read > texts in other encodings. > > I think it would be even clearer to say: > > there are many implementations that cannot successfully read > texts encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. WFM. 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MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.146]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 00:20:02 -0400 From: "HANSEN, TONY L" To: "json@ietf.org" CC: The IESG Thread-Topic: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" Thread-Index: AQHSoB2hkOiDU0h/uUO6PkcNIhnyU6GcKDiAgAASAQCAAfYDAIAAhFmA Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 04:20:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> In-Reply-To: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.110.240.165] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <02E62CB531054142868A665A9E1BA287@LOCAL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public 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[50.200.5.118]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f130sm209237iof.2.2017.03.23.07.40.52 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 07:40:52 -0700 (PDT) To: json@ietf.org References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 08:40:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kBOxtUweijlSsKhkWgcoKPAmewxvdtEKs" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:40:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --kBOxtUweijlSsKhkWgcoKPAmewxvdtEKs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LS9gWmSx85nL3I0hvin5RHFadoTJWeVu1"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: json@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> In-Reply-To: --LS9gWmSx85nL3I0hvin5RHFadoTJWeVu1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello JSONbis, It looks like we have consensus for the following text for all of Section 8.1: """ JSON text MUST be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of [UNICODE]. The default encoding is UTF-8, and JSON texts that are encoded in UTF-8 are interoperable in the sense that they will be read successfully by the maximum number of implementations; there are many implementations that cannot successfully read texts encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32. Text encoded in character encodings other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 cannot be used with the media type "application/json". Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact that the first character will always have a Unicode code point greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. """ Please speak now if you have any objections. Thank you all, -- - m&m Matthew A. Miller JSONbis Chair --LS9gWmSx85nL3I0hvin5RHFadoTJWeVu1-- --kBOxtUweijlSsKhkWgcoKPAmewxvdtEKs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY0950AAoJEOz0ck4QngW79LoH/24h2Wde+8357br5QxUKRNPt hEyhHLnCzvWpM/A9vUEVM4aWnaWTFRriXfAIwTtcduY6OTvEue+rNgCfGV+u5kEp n2DHlcsqNRm4nsLBZKvV5EYPr6ZxQR5YdROwl7G6X4lkD90qdlQuuODM29iudX5z a2AiiiXo6De91pvnJFz9YCEdzIp4ipqwjfb+brNXH+YvI6uuOKsoKI2CRruHWTzj BeSNVk3fnlVqIGnvRebqjnHM/lumGwetMU0WoX9fmqJqnyTSvkuKyxhm+tewbwIt CMP7wxsRLl/GsHq2JL+Dci8ADQMAGqNhqAssfzK0FU61mGuXAiRua10jpnKohCY= =1erX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kBOxtUweijlSsKhkWgcoKPAmewxvdtEKs-- From nobody Thu Mar 23 11:56:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B70E129BDE for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gep4ieGNsMkD for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1C85129BAB for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2NItXir010208; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:56:32 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 29cks60tm4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:56:30 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2NIuRY6026083; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:56:28 -0400 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2NIuHOf025835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:56:22 -0400 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.146]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:56:05 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCG.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.7.103]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.146]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:56:05 -0400 From: "HANSEN, TONY L" To: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" Thread-Index: AQHSoB2hkOiDU0h/uUO6PkcNIhnyU6GcKDiAgAASAQCAAfYDAIAAhFmAgAQVLgCAAAQ/AA== Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:56:03 +0000 Message-ID: <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.110.241.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7C1602DDC4196F45B300378E689E3CFA@LOCAL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-23_18:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703230162 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:56:36 -0000 SSB3b3VsZCBzdGlsbCBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSBKdWxpYW7igJlzIHNtYWxsIHRhYmxlIG9uIGRpZmZl cmVudGlhdGluZyBiZXR3ZWVuIFVURiB2YXJpYW50cyBhZGRlZCBhcyBhbiBhcHBlbmRpeC4NCg0K CVRvbnkgSGFuc2VuDQoNCk9uIDMvMjMvMTcsIDEwOjQwIEFNLCAianNvbiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2Yg TWF0dGhldyBBLiBNaWxsZXIiIDxqc29uLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGxp bnV4d29sZkBvdXRlci1wbGFuZXMubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIEhlbGxvIEpTT05iaXMsDQog ICAgDQogICAgSXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZSB3ZSBoYXZlIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBmb3IgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2lu ZyB0ZXh0IGZvciBhbGwgb2YNCiAgICBTZWN0aW9uIDguMToNCiAgICANCiAgICAiIiINCiAgICBK U09OIHRleHQgTVVTVCBiZSBlbmNvZGVkIGluIFVURi04LCBVVEYtMTYsIG9yIFVURi0zMiBTZWN0 aW9uIDMgb2YNCiAgICBbVU5JQ09ERV0uICBUaGUgZGVmYXVsdCBlbmNvZGluZyBpcyBVVEYtOCwg YW5kIEpTT04gdGV4dHMgdGhhdCBhcmUNCiAgICBlbmNvZGVkIGluIFVURi04IGFyZSBpbnRlcm9w ZXJhYmxlIGluIHRoZSBzZW5zZSB0aGF0IHRoZXkgd2lsbCBiZQ0KICAgIHJlYWQgc3VjY2Vzc2Z1 bGx5IGJ5IHRoZSBtYXhpbXVtIG51bWJlciBvZiBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnM7IHRoZXJlIGFyZQ0K ICAgIG1hbnkgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIHRoYXQgY2Fubm90IHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSByZWFkIHRl eHRzIGVuY29kZWQgaW4NCiAgICBVVEYtMTYgb3IgVVRGLTMyLiBUZXh0IGVuY29kZWQgaW4gY2hh cmFjdGVyIGVuY29kaW5ncyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIFVURi04LA0KICAgIFVURi0xNiwgb3IgVVRGLTMy IGNhbm5vdCBiZSB1c2VkIHdpdGggdGhlIG1lZGlhIHR5cGUgImFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL2pzb24iLg0K ICAgIA0KICAgIEltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBNVVNUIE5PVCBhZGQgYSBieXRlIG9yZGVyIG1hcmsg KFUrRkVGRikgdG8gdGhlDQogICAgYmVnaW5uaW5nIG9mIGEgSlNPTiB0ZXh0LiAgSW4gdGhlIGlu dGVyZXN0cyBvZiBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LA0KICAgIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyB0aGF0IHBh cnNlIEpTT04gdGV4dHMgTUFZIGlnbm9yZSB0aGUgcHJlc2VuY2Ugb2YgYQ0KICAgIGJ5dGUgb3Jk ZXIgbWFyayByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiB0cmVhdGluZyBpdCBhcyBhbiBlcnJvci4NCiAgICANCiAgICBS ZWNpcGllbnRzIHRoYXQgd2lzaCB0byBzdXBwb3J0IFVuaWNvZGUgZW5jb2RpbmdzIG90aGVyIHRo YW4gVVRGLTgNCiAgICBjYW4gZG8gdGhpcyB1c2luZyBhIGRldGVjdGlvbiBtZWNoYW5pc20gdGhh dCBpcyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgZmFjdA0KICAgIHRoYXQgdGhlIGZpcnN0IGNoYXJhY3RlciB3aWxs IGFsd2F5cyBoYXZlIGEgVW5pY29kZSBjb2RlIHBvaW50DQogICAgZ3JlYXRlciB0aGFuIDAgYW5k IGxlc3MgdGhhbiAxMjgsIHRodXMgdGhlIFVURi0xNi8zMiB2YXJpYW50cyBjYW4NCiAgICBiZSBk ZXRlY3RlZCBieSBpbnNwZWN0aW5nIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBvY3RldHMgZm9yIG51bGxzLg0KICAgICIi Ig0KICAgIA0KICAgIFBsZWFzZSBzcGVhayBub3cgaWYgeW91IGhhdmUgYW55IG9iamVjdGlvbnMu DQogICAgDQogICAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGFsbCwNCiAgICANCiAgICAtLQ0KICAgIC0gbSZtDQogICAg DQogICAgTWF0dGhldyBBLiBNaWxsZXINCiAgICBKU09OYmlzIENoYWlyDQogICAgDQogICAgDQoN Cg== From nobody Thu Mar 23 12:32:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDA9129C00 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mkKSuP9tma7 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A78129C0B for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.121.130]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LgZ7h-1cLdcF2Yc9-00nxoj; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:32:18 +0100 To: "HANSEN, TONY L" , "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:32:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:f2BSF63oXE8ExuPtmEQ+7QWIm8EmeGJMeRwtdcLIXQfJp+V0yBW jHUINBbmtIMbfDvlUdE4o6cPlAygGV1pZT7XLqEvfFh6ax/4H7N0XdDBbY+7XMoft1Hlv3X XEuHzr0S5tn9EoxY7tInN9liNHflL3VN2oIIWQpXN4jR1kGf8MRZMlneYgMsyUqItib/Opf AZfm/KKeZNHmL9PdpxlTg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:NS/IfVOQHow=:AGuENvq0xIrewpQQuDwkun rJ/3rqmWAf8nk8gfJcDLUCvK4TVApzw6Nw4SYc2hCPYxVdYpAPHeyOXq4J6Bemku6s06RDN7Z nkKDqemabbR/RLe5ebKX0Mpp1xdlpTCfNH/NFeHcDmJARWJtjJRspgWSN6AhO4jPO+Hs5JLaN wjtuQbAPgjqFumdGtgYTBGtY/yW7te1AMuTnSkNZI9R1OqiYHNsVIevVAjzHaQCeONmx4syDM fu5sS2ge47kNlvtpVYwcTXTga4/mgcVmmYYXFyy1Ec+DcOx6U1tdmhotzyEfMuM68VtNc81Z9 z0fVmBiqJX0GfvLZ4EIVAGQE4Kb9b5CuujYkv/DVcJsFqrAvYEZKUbvaQ/Q+Z7yAYNideMMsa LqbU/LV9XcBoE8SzbD0M1D125dzfPfpMjkkjNstqXqa/YTiSeJwP9oBX7TVmEEXNK5DAYWpze dvT+1iUT5J2INnvl1+AVn0OWEYosgGVwhh+qdfAcLWMogsr6QhVstZkKq8BZuFeMyUKQbs8l0 w35x4mAa7Z9/6dPeLiJBdGhM6BpBV+Bx5tMSg7yvY+6ADMvxGtf4+3ykGZYrtP2t9wbjIFR3d 7H+cJYr+FqOVV8LfHDy3HW+ZjtEO49vRt6nhE9ZWDvvc1g7Z32UnKEKkBQkqviHhFrSKmMwgo vVOzonwj9FutnYr1BrKdkMxuvz1dVWy5xWngrpd4xNINm3vk5rx6fSWer01vsGOTWXLrMWtFb LMyOTrKCQ1YNEGG7iFyLz9FCaReTLZdXD8DonjfN/o2D58+qrntMECF9oCxzAMaisX3rz6AhI crg3Z+S Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:32:28 -0000 On 2017-03-23 19:56, HANSEN, TONY L wrote: > I would still like to see Julian’s small table on differentiating between UTF variants added as an appendix. > ... FWIW, Carsten pointed out that the table wasn't accurate. Also, it seems some participants feel that having the table would actually encourage people to implement this, which some of the participants think is a bad idea in the first place. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 23 13:03:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200A712871F for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P3UArPKREmAY for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1DD01286CA for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2NJtgTU047723; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:03:05 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 29cm3bjdud-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:03:04 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2NK33Bk017905; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:03:04 -0400 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2NK2rdA017639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:02:57 -0400 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAG.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.151]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:02:29 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCG.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.7.103]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.151]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:02:28 -0400 From: "HANSEN, TONY L" To: Julian Reschke , "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" Thread-Index: AQHSoB2hkOiDU0h/uUO6PkcNIhnyU6GcKDiAgAASAQCAAfYDAIAAhFmAgAQVLgCAAAQ/AIAATS4A///FXoA= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:02:28 +0000 Message-ID: <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.110.241.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1FB3DC9D39446C4C9B9CCE5291B57CF9@LOCAL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-23_19:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703230168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:03:11 -0000 T24gMy8yMy8xNywgMzozMiBQTSwgIkp1bGlhbiBSZXNjaGtlIiA8anVsaWFuLnJlc2Noa2VAZ214 LmRlPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBPbiAyMDE3LTAzLTIzIDE5OjU2LCBIQU5TRU4sIFRPTlkgTCB3cm90 ZToNCj4+IEkgd291bGQgc3RpbGwgbGlrZSB0byBzZWUgSnVsaWFu4oCZcyBzbWFsbCB0YWJsZSBv biBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYXRpbmcgYmV0d2VlbiBVVEYgdmFyaWFudHMgYWRkZWQgYXMgYW4gYXBwZW5k aXguDQo+PiAuLi4NCiAgICANCj4gICAgRldJVywgQ2Fyc3RlbiBwb2ludGVkIG91dCB0aGF0IHRo ZSB0YWJsZSB3YXNuJ3QgYWNjdXJhdGUuIEFsc28sIGl0IHNlZW1zIA0KPiAgICBzb21lIHBhcnRp Y2lwYW50cyBmZWVsIHRoYXQgaGF2aW5nIHRoZSB0YWJsZSB3b3VsZCBhY3R1YWxseSBlbmNvdXJh Z2UgDQo+ICAgIHBlb3BsZSB0byBpbXBsZW1lbnQgdGhpcywgd2hpY2ggc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgcGFy dGljaXBhbnRzIHRoaW5rIGlzIGEgYmFkIA0KPiAgICBpZGVhIGluIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBwbGFjZS4N Cg0KT2ssIE5pY2/igJlzIHNpbXBsaWZpY2F0aW9u4oCZcyB0byB0aGUgYWxnb3JpdGhtIHdvdWxk IGJlIGJldHRlci4gQnV0IGl0IGtpbmQgb2YgcHJvdmVzIG15IHBvaW50IGFib3V0IGhvdyBpdCBp cyBlYXN5IHRvIGdldCB3cm9uZy4NCg0KV2hpY2ggd2lsbCBsZWFkIHRvIGdyZWF0ZXIgaW50ZXJv cGVyYWJpbGl0eSBpc3N1ZXM/DQoNCiopIEEgZ3JlYXRlciBjaGFuY2Ugb2YgcGVvcGxlIGltcGxl bWVudGluZyBpdCBDT1JSRUNUTFkganVzdCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBpbmZvIGlzIHRoZXJlPw0KKikg UGVvcGxlIGRlY2lkaW5nIHRvIGltcGxlbWVudCBpdCBhbmQgdGhlbiBpbXBsZW1lbnRpbmcgaXQg d3JvbmcgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgaW5mbyBpcyBOT1QgdGhlcmUuIA0KDQpXaGljaCBzZXQgd291bGQg YmUgbGFyZ2VyPyBJIGRvbuKAmXQga25vdy4gQnV0IEnigJlkIHJhdGhlciBlcnIgb24gdGhlIHNp ZGUgb2Ygb3ZlcmFsbCBpbmNyZWFzZWQgaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eS4NCg0KCVRvbnkgSGFuc2Vu DQoNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Mar 23 13:49:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2CD128959 for ; 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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> From: John Cowan Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:49:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: "HANSEN, TONY L" Cc: Julian Reschke , "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c36a627d3f0054b6c043f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:49:45 -0000 --001a113c36a627d3f0054b6c043f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:02 PM, HANSEN, TONY L wrote: But I=E2=80=99d rather err on the side of overall increased interoperabilit= y. In that case, discourage implementation of anything but UTF-8. --=20 John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org The Unicode Standard does not encode idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private use characters, nor does it encode logos or graphics. --001a113c36a627d3f0054b6c043f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:02 PM, HANSEN, TONY L <tony@att.com> wr= ote:

But I=E2=80=99d rather err on the side of overall increased= interoperability.

In that case, discourage= implementation of anything but UTF-8.

--=C2=A0
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
Th= e Unicode Standard does not encode idiosyncratic, personal, novel,
or private use characters, nor does it encode logos or graphics.=C2=A0



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[50.200.5.118]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k66sm153262itg.8.2017.03.23.14.37.37 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller Cc: "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:37:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lbiWXO7RxsSjhsXFLH7ruP7vMVLS8BdHQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:37:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --lbiWXO7RxsSjhsXFLH7ruP7vMVLS8BdHQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="aebc75x1qq6Ji3euT4jFnAHIT02E1qTWN"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" Cc: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> In-Reply-To: --aebc75x1qq6Ji3euT4jFnAHIT02E1qTWN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/23 15:49, John Cowan wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:02 PM, HANSEN, TONY L > wrote: >=20 > But I=E2=80=99d rather err on the side of overall increased interop= erability. >=20 >=20 > In that case, discourage implementation of anything but UTF-8. >=20 Our sponsoring AD and I have been discussing this option. Alexey is willing to go through another IETF last call if we can get consensus. To start, to what degree is UTF-8 encouraged? 0) don't encourage UTF-8 more than already is 1) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all usages 2) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' 3) MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' 4) other -- please specify - m&m Matthew A. Miller JSONbis Chair --aebc75x1qq6Ji3euT4jFnAHIT02E1qTWN-- --lbiWXO7RxsSjhsXFLH7ruP7vMVLS8BdHQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY1EAhAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7WgkH/RwfixT2R4C9IW2vtJgIMZps HNNsYc7aywAa+6tWXEElqttc68HQdT8QJIjJRwGXOPMnvhdKAA8M/XDDi/KzV2Ix PJg9HQjlm7N8koRepr5+M4qM2/GpAObKYgBHUnNGQRwrtJr+vb/+p+Jw++GdOt3Z BDOS/CSaTgt7m91ADFoPCKiom0dBK5b+TDfnnqvzaCSt6ycGrth8zZ9QuB7eZzVX 6pikLTuoT3c5mwa++VLbbv1T66qmV+mmlQJuvHBprwpd/a/yeLUgIlV3b5KEK2E8 zIgbZ9SMykDctM7tCdwCmd9T+zij7LDqfI3WJ7BLezdgjzjwh+5ZF5t0L538pu4= =xp/P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lbiWXO7RxsSjhsXFLH7ruP7vMVLS8BdHQ-- From nobody Thu Mar 23 15:08:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5FF128DF6 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:08:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24NUgpFp9ziq for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 027FE127097 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21096 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2017 22:01:27 +0000 Received: from host109-157-157-172.range109-157.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (109.157.157.172) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 23 Mar 2017 22:01:27 +0000 To: "Matthew A. Miller" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> Cc: "json@ietf.org" From: Pete Cordell Message-ID: <06527534-3098-a20c-31ca-0e97fd336c5d@codalogic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 22:08:45 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 22:08:52 -0000 On 23/03/2017 21:37, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > Our sponsoring AD and I have been discussing this option. Alexey is > willing to go through another IETF last call if we can get consensus. > > To start, to what degree is UTF-8 encouraged? > > 0) don't encourage UTF-8 more than already is > 1) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all usages > 2) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 3) MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 4) other -- please specify (3) is where I'd like to be and where I believe most implementations are based on list discussion. This would seem to align the bis RFC with what's deployed, which seems the best approach for interoperability. Also (1) for when not 'application/json' media type. Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd From nobody Thu Mar 23 16:00:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C5B1292D3 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o09fkjTzRLeV for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F953127B31 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE465D000083C; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=n5lUa2CpMuhHKX Dx381pkFxtspk=; b=Wg2AVI66xSqOBll3bWhLzZ5AASLjeG/5gFex5PWThacJua cPxkMmhZg+YHf9mj+wSuIaymUnlcpqjJmWEt0DBw/Tt6t/VFgtvYHx3iWSUpHmCi GtGpIXTLnh4YR9/7LN26AnNTJp7zmKLMwuPc5ux1Sy8W8I+ZQCJXNF7l6/s+k= Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A49BDD000083A; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:00:22 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Matthew A. Miller" Cc: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170323230020.GC7490@localhost> References: <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 23:00:27 -0000 On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 04:37:36PM -0500, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > Our sponsoring AD and I have been discussing this option. Alexey is > willing to go through another IETF last call if we can get consensus. > > To start, to what degree is UTF-8 encouraged? > > 0) don't encourage UTF-8 more than already is > 1) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all usages > 2) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 3) MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 4) other -- please specify (1) and (3) I don't mind (4): MUST encode in UTF-8 for all uses, though I don't think we need to go that far. Nico -- From nobody Thu Mar 23 16:30:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3AF127735 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pOEWYOaOIzY2 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC03D1273E2 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id y90so39648020wrb.0 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:30:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NbA1EI/bHcL/ja6Bjf3JlfQakD3FMuWyP7VOIc/4X+g=; b=ymfG5HYa2Kzt53klP87vakZ4e0YlYdmbK++cFvc1c7Lcdibvg9Fn+Dcn2PrL8iYKcO hT08FZKf+K1YUr06MEJJXJgm/vgs1UAIwm7rSa6Vf+ZzteusdTd18hFxM0GfwK2IN9iL 0sEv2InHe9ecJbt3cZnDQIfdqWOSNdVUwPqLNqAGs3EWMNFf4WatQlCrCB70ffyFwMIP 2RKub/iK8+8SSJvBo7tCpCMMVN/N/y1KiVWAi85Ug2EFMJxFZPmBJ+VzKHcIfNoiPHTE R1wLY6O0Ca7qUJhHNaWVlKSG0fte5CIvaSR5XUydLwoUzPPBG2u1s0c6hr0IX/1lWgoU paQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NbA1EI/bHcL/ja6Bjf3JlfQakD3FMuWyP7VOIc/4X+g=; b=Fvkm0w09xBln7mXBFq5E29O1Rpa3l22M6ZM66LP845uwCz6p7lc7+mwuuAGZsp4Dll zZlMK9q0V91Rqkf+lwYHkuM6jiFG+FHfwIE7v4INuZIMAT8avSs9hdF5Wqw4OYG7Ikh8 gJ/NLZpL2OzTiHtHxrQQDmeO7m7mJLDBouuN9fITO/DoKhaXbThBO5GTHrul3mkozucM NHrhd2orAOftq3MJsOzFQDQYZuTObH+hXhiKGsG+fS1P4a2WTQ8IqQJ+qCJO03tAtszx g0veYlLJTJLIQ7s6SG5EKCWhBR01wh5Q6TaQ0W00nphQ9Vj2QZHMUYh2/fcBj3kHB56M auSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2/lRB4XBlI8XBRfpdvGybAY+ngHM/Ftu74dUc9aJfbcnspcJyrH4lyjRj25MNTyQOGeqM1F/VnW/BN4XXf X-Received: by 10.223.133.228 with SMTP id 33mr5359605wru.0.1490311819435; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:29:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <06527534-3098-a20c-31ca-0e97fd336c5d@codalogic.com> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <06527534-3098-a20c-31ca-0e97fd336c5d@codalogic.com> From: John Cowan Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:29:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: Pete Cordell Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114922a89a3a32054b6e42ce Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 23:30:23 -0000 --001a114922a89a3a32054b6e42ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > (3) is where I'd like to be and where I believe most implementations are > based on list discussion. This would seem to align the bis RFC with what's > deployed, which seems the best approach for interoperability. > > Also (1) for when not 'application/json' media type. > +1 --001a114922a89a3a32054b6e42ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com= > wrote:
(3) is where I'd like to be and whe= re I believe most implementations are based on list discussion.=C2=A0 This = would seem to align the bis RFC with what's deployed, which seems the b= est approach for interoperability.

Also (1) for when not 'application/json' media type.

+1

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SYXPR01MB1615; H:SYXPR01MB1615.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Mar 2017 00:30:02.1540 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 49dfc6a3-5fb7-49f4-adea-c54e725bb854 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SYXPR01MB1615 X-OriginatorOrg: team.telstra.com Archived-At: Subject: [Json] FW: Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:30:09 -0000 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10.28.173.193 with SMTP id w184mr7290356wme.106.1490575808675; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 17:50:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.181.14 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 17:49:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> From: John Cowan Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 20:49:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Manger, James" Cc: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114426b4967f4b054babb93e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] FW: Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:50:12 -0000 --001a114426b4967f4b054babb93e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Manger, James < James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > > can do this using a detection mechanism > > Not quite. The detection only distinguishes UTF-8/16/32, not "encodings > other than UTF-8". > It doesn't say "encodings other than UTF-8". It says "Unicode encodings other than UTF-8", viz. UTF-16, UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, UTF-32, UTF-32LE, and UTF-32BE. If you wish to support any of these, you can use a detection mechanism. -- John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU BALIN SON OF FUNDIN LORD OF KHAZAD-DUM --001a114426b4967f4b054babb93e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Manger, James <James.H.Mang= er@team.telstra.com> wrote:
> Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodi= ngs other than UTF-8
> can do this using a detection mechanism

Not quite. The detection only distinguishes UTF-8/16/32, not "encoding= s other than UTF-8".

It doesn't say &q= uot;encodings other than UTF-8".=C2=A0 It says "Unicode encodings= other than UTF-8", viz. UTF-16, UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, UTF-32, UTF-32LE,= and UTF-32BE.=C2=A0 If you wish to support any of these, you can use a det= ection mechanism.

--=C2=A0
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
BALIN FUNDINUL =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0UZBAD KHA= ZADDUMU
BALIN SON OF FUNDIN =C2=A0 =C2=A0 L= ORD OF KHAZAD-DUM

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Miller wrote: > Hello JSONbis, > > It looks like we have consensus for the following text for all of > Section 8.1: > > """ > JSON text MUST be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32 Section 3 of > [UNICODE]. Independent of any other changes, please put "Section 3 of [UNICODE]" in parentheses, or otherwise make this sentence make more sense. Regards, Martin. From nobody Sun Mar 26 21:18:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028AA1276AF for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ek1ir_FKsEZ9 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-os2jpn01on0135.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.92.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCEA4127876 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=fHENDVkPrKO6Ft3DtClwfdlxszMnGqyYG9AMtQYzb2Q=; b=c7FH4eBTAabSobxG1vOQQHXFfCqIVJnW4o7oNmkJ/MvIZvd6XlwMfM3iuaffST3DyslJEaJyu87kqVTEQ0mb0PHcj5LHimMi9i4jmpU1HlkGsWKPSOd4Qqr0msOUqzzBf2Z2DolqPvZ5fDLWDlsKDyrNlUJZLQL8CE98WRsko00= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from [133.2.210.64] (133.2.210.64) by TYXPR01MB0654.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.14; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 04:18:38 +0000 To: "Matthew A. Miller" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> CC: "json@ietf.org" From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:18:36 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [133.2.210.64] X-ClientProxiedBy: OS1PR01CA0047.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.164.162.29) To TYXPR01MB0654.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.141) X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 0b44e2a7-2105-4165-a350-08d474c85817 X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:TYXPR01MB0654; 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Miller wrote: > On 17/03/23 15:49, John Cowan wrote: >> In that case, discourage implementation of anything but UTF-8. > Our sponsoring AD and I have been discussing this option. Alexey is > willing to go through another IETF last call if we can get consensus. > > To start, to what degree is UTF-8 encouraged? > > 0) don't encourage UTF-8 more than already is > 1) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all usages > 2) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 3) MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > 4) other -- please specify The more UTF-8, and the less of anything else, the better for interoperability. So ideally, that would be "MUST use UTF-8". The next would be "SHOULD use UTF-8, but MAY use UTF-16/32 if they are sure the intended recipient can process it". (This would go together with (4) above.) The next would be (3). I'm fine if we need another IETF last call to get closer to the above. I'm also fine if we don't need another last call, even if the consensus falls somewhere else. I still don't see why some people insist on keeping UTF-16/UTF-32. As far as I see it, the fact that it has been mentioned in earlier RFCs isn't relevant content-wise (because it's just confusing to people to mention these encodings when all they need to do is use UTF-8), and also isn't relevant process-wise (it's a good idea to remove usused/unusable options when rewriting a spec, and the IETF does this all the time). Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Mar 27 13:04:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81635126E01 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1knTkUaLfiw7 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com (mail-it0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A18A127775 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id y18so88837816itc.0 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:references:from:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=eiJZZNSA/meOggHgh0PYGth0GeCIMZT76CqSnxxJQJQ=; b=OIzmvEeMlL4j2CuUdHn91MVeK4x++PZ9yhA1Suam5jZm+fDLXD1mQK05TCfHWF/AO9 r+qVyW9rj/N/1856GLQfuhtgtI+GpPx8mhHLmvOiuwKMOeVFWca4lSRHiJiAXU5JFuK1 eLA9Izn8BcO4PAyFjJIfwkQIuhb44CLfA6kmFPSIXve+DMeCcWUMptyzD9FLYRFsWbJk ho3duA4nEipXkJroMe6Ljlj0JbtoGwzGjkoRJKnROirGbyK4AEJy1I64do65/Gx8b2az IwswHjYP3XJMlsg6mw/Tkh6ulTxNZXf7CMVuwz70T1omMduuWYm+wv5KskiUzIravHGq xWGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:references:from:to:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=eiJZZNSA/meOggHgh0PYGth0GeCIMZT76CqSnxxJQJQ=; b=bcZoyBmN7B7NshBJofpWnYZo9vJpMEOkzfyKxw2H2I235ae5HG2LXl6c0fKgj5A68J udWU6pgN9g27Kfsj2M3u+PozkI936C4SoNrlP3hyvlZhFdptO7JJ8SydPN5dqK2gZ+Hh ZImOtBRxCFXOL6tVdEFq01lYSdihzhgoKkykUUEPUINwOOn3q4dgdlxY989wj0xUcLkb csAAVZraZ24BSqNYESXcLXyS4S5J3QOcTDHkw2llGHCeqx8El1/mz0EdWSzabjCWjQYk crjIbqIs2xcrEvWn4WK5MsJgoUxvTqM0nkZDEcNBtdFoxX8bNHZgl+4S475tAgi3FlfD hFTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2aH+r02kWo7S2UHbux8lFvRC4Z9o52FeAi3usjCkWKPv26laOMo3/FaPlI+nrNgg== X-Received: by 10.107.201.138 with SMTP id z132mr22473521iof.220.1490645079313; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:845b:e11:7aad:29da? (t2001067c03700128845b0e117aad29da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:845b:e11:7aad:29da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l5sm312564ita.13.2017.03.27.13.04.38 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:04:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tCLDW8QOuKWhwPLIFLiHoEXAJC02d96wo" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:04:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tCLDW8QOuKWhwPLIFLiHoEXAJC02d96wo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UULVd2iRtgwglwBP4vjQsSPT5dUeQqblQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: "json@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> --UULVd2iRtgwglwBP4vjQsSPT5dUeQqblQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello JSONBis, I believe I see consensus for: * MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' * SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all (other) usages. In an attempt to expedite things, here is a proposal for text that I think matches the consensus: """ JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 (Section 3 of [UNICODE]); JSON text MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32 if the generator is certain the intended recipients can process it. JSON text MUST NOT be encoded in any encoding other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. When used with media type "application/json" the JSON text MUST be encoded as UTF-8. Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact that the first character will always have a Unicode code point greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. """ - m&m Matthew A. Miller JSONBis Chair --UULVd2iRtgwglwBP4vjQsSPT5dUeQqblQ-- --tCLDW8QOuKWhwPLIFLiHoEXAJC02d96wo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY2XBVAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7lEUH/Ro/sgruf0nz/ui3THVWCdcN KDu6SVRElboQKc8Fsv5mqqp0N/IpbAjSQUJgKW/YqHIiwvNxMRFw4ew1LVghr7pZ 3a6leiRTU+/JgUefMnaULroc19bIU5wfKdlBEGNAgbGk507uEvfUp2TDYfx+8aOj Lpi4Giw+Tygk+aIcX+cQbVwpPbywExSrzGL0ZULqFofS2qThMAo58fiAsWGFD2J6 yqAIFmeI72qWVDTATdttfc5TmSOv3EJ3mxS4RSRD8wGZ/1bykcnQbS8fBK0S73R9 GUlKYNrFcbHNhi1NI0q07FxKEteUGf7VdgMFM0Oh3YwQU2j8k/O7YSohbBO+JeU= =yg1a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tCLDW8QOuKWhwPLIFLiHoEXAJC02d96wo-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 21:16:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2246A1297E6 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:16:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WjXh7dHG8ahC for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ty1jpn01on0134.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.93.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FD61126DED for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:16:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=g2xUZy5oPDqrWlN/7qggVWP5zygzYqlIRn++24Zr/Pg=; b=d77WbVLqNRRWbZl7R9J+m7ow9h5Kdh+PDDnFl40oCtkkzkahedyif97he64rrmVloKM4cNunrnAYaaOiDgoYTz27DyV+Yngy1Ws4W8CIfsKdPGGX3SQNY1WeNlETeU9xS4R5a4fxPTrqzZ/HMxkSPvOKCn2/A8Mb/AOvyKkb6A4= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from [133.2.210.64] (133.2.210.64) by TYXPR01MB0653.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.14; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:16:41 +0000 To: "Matthew A. Miller" , "json@ietf.org" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <69cda124-b72d-52aa-78ae-032ac3889cf3@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:16:38 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [133.2.210.64] X-ClientProxiedBy: TY1PR01CA0033.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.164.162.143) To TYXPR01MB0653.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.140) X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 64af990d-a14f-4e77-1688-08d475913cbe X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; 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Ship it! Regards, Martin. On 2017/03/28 05:04, Matthew A. Miller wrote: > Hello JSONBis, > > I believe I see consensus for: > > * MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json' > * SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all (other) usages. > > In an attempt to expedite things, here is a proposal for text that I > think matches the consensus: > > """ > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 (Section 3 of [UNICODE]); JSON > text MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32 if the generator is certain > the intended recipients can process it. JSON text MUST NOT be encoded > in any encoding other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. When used with > media type "application/json" the JSON text MUST be encoded as UTF-8. > > Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the > beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, > implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a > byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. > > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact > that the first character will always have a Unicode code point > greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can > be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. > """ > > > - m&m > > Matthew A. Miller > JSONBis Chair > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Mon Mar 27 21:49:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DD9127241 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CIXz60_GwQ7s for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 343BF128B44 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x35so55074482qtc.2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:49:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nAyzffkgPJcgE3zPdlqphox6v0MNjc/gT4f+NUFgdTE=; b=ET9TvjJRNX2s16kWGNxm8a+202P9/5Gz5cWLO2NJgBGISmgFaTuZtq3/XAMcOFZWn0 Xf03UAWeN9m5Tcwx/hxA/YXWY3HWu9ZQpzeJjRhYMKrZKeBWmZYgzxoDeCcRsdU5cSE6 ArKsgDG6Z7oJmzHwaLOVxMNdHiQiAkXn06oF9ZzO2kBjktqpRqlH5r9LPCEt1O9d/wBG IC3Y0NJZHOnM8RUHbuEbookloFNCEIp/R8xhgjixEbES4pVDLVN+GnRq2KyuOXGlAyiM ADGjeNF4yLAs33vBAy04dpykmlvULmTU3V1s8pTbvRbBaRTcyrkYNjJjVYKKlcQ4rG7m BleQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nAyzffkgPJcgE3zPdlqphox6v0MNjc/gT4f+NUFgdTE=; b=S1nKG/CCz3sTMDgV2mmBjt/jx9GaGLybFY9AtvRhB5CQxCJ/tF2Rc0tUELKmEzAujq 5e0bE1PnuRFIilVH6Xr1ZJAbklJa7t8dwu4wsrvvQYuYzUaSzDNdt8wZ6ifhpoC5k3I6 Z6mTF5ye8OthiPRLU7i9twC3mwEwK6LTtYJ/SSTi6EPD7GjJqo8xY3covcf2PFBL33WJ 2sSI5z7WoB4VIR3gsFup37WJIpLVhxsYz7wiNa8cBroRNt8ZWfyO2p5+56xqSxuFeZBk kCi7QwLndszFLcrqLPusYJ6Mc3jYgZSA1MGwlaR6F+0ahrFT/AaUEyvZKbGMOZC9FNIV 3QQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3oVCXStucQXa3n9skkEgUEr3Nb0xsX3N/gkEe5RiHvaMaiRrVcenXOPlLh2aiRuri4m65cy/CNTdOcpQ== X-Received: by 10.200.38.3 with SMTP id u3mr12419327qtu.203.1490676552325; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:49:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.38.230 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:48:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.86.134.32] In-Reply-To: <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:48:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Matthew A. Miller" Cc: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11412d8060723a054bc32ee2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:49:16 -0000 --001a11412d8060723a054bc32ee2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First of all, let me say that I=E2=80=99m delighted with, and fully support= , the promotion of the status of UTF-8 in the JSON RFC to MUST. I suspect this steps way outside the JSONbis charter, but that=E2=80=99s a problem for cha= irs and ADs, not yr humble editor. Comments on Matt's proposed text: 1. How about a very short historical note, along the lines of: =E2=80=9CPre= vious specifications of JSON, including the predecessor RFCs, have not required the use of UTF-8 for use with the application/json media type. However, implementors of JSON-based software have overwhelmingly chosen to use the UTF-8 encoding, to the extent that it is the only realistic way to achieve interoperability in software which generates or consumes JSON.=E2=80=9D ... moving on... =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B O =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B n Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Matthew A. Miller < linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote: =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 (Section 3 of [UNICODE]); JSON > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > text MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32 if the generator is certain > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > the intended recipients can process it. JSON text MUST NOT be encoded > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > in any encoding other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. When used with > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > media type "application/json" the JSON text MUST be encoded as UTF-8. > =E2=80=8B2. Seriously, why the =E2=80=9CJSON text MAY be encoded in=E2=80= =A6 can process it =E2=80=8B=E2=80=9D phrase? It=E2=80=99s a distraction, and if people want to do that, we can= =E2=80=99t stop them, but we shouldn't waste RFC space talking about practices that are not remotely interoperable. The I in IETF stands for Internet, and JSON on the Internet is UTF-8, end of story. =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact > that the first character will always have a Unicode code point > greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can > be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. > =E2=80=8B3. Is it just me, or does it feel really dorky to talk mysteriousl= y about this detection mechanism without providing details? On top of which, anyone who's writing the kind of software that might lead one to consult =E2=80=8Ban RFC first shouldn't bloody well use anything but UTF-8. If peo= ple really want to have this, I think we owe the world an outline of the algorithm, maybe in an appendix. I'll volunteer to make my best effort to draft it and try to get consensus that it's correct.. If we can't, that's a powerful symbol that we shouldn't have this language. But that's my fallback position; my real request to the group is that we just take this out. > """ > > > - m&m > > Matthew A. Miller > JSONBis Chair > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11412d8060723a054bc32ee2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fir= st of all, let me say that I=E2=80=99m delighted with, and fully support, t= he promotion of the status of UTF-8 in the JSON RFC to MUST.=C2=A0 I suspec= t this steps way outside the JSONbis charter, but that=E2=80=99s a problem = for chairs and ADs, not yr humble editor.

Comments on Matt's proposed text:

1. How about a very short historical note, al= ong the lines of: =E2=80=9CPrevious specifications of JSON, including the p= redecessor RFCs, have not required the use of UTF-8 for use with the applic= ation/json media type.=C2=A0 However, implementors of JSON-based software h= ave overwhelmingly chosen to use the UTF-8 encoding, to the extent that it = is the only realistic way to achieve interoperability in software which gen= erates or consumes JSON.=E2=80=9D

... moving on...

=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
O
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
n Mon, Mar 27, = 2017 at 1:04 PM, Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-pla= nes.net> wrote:
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF= -8 (Section 3 of [UNICODE]); JSON
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
text MAY be encoded in UTF-16 or UTF-32 if the generat= or is certain
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
the intended recipients can process it. JSON text MUST= NOT be encoded
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
in any encoding other than UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32. W= hen used with
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
media type "application/json" the JSON text = MUST be encoded as UTF-8.

=E2=80=8B2. Seriously, why the = =E2=80=9CJSON text MAY be encoded in=E2=80=A6 can process it =E2=80=8B=E2= =80=9D phrase?=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s a distraction, and if people want to do t= hat, we can=E2=80=99t stop them, but we shouldn't waste RFC space talki= ng about practices that are not remotely interoperable.=C2=A0 The I in IETF= stands for Internet, and JSON on the Internet is UTF-8, end of story.
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B<= /div>
Recipients that = wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8
can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact
that the first character will always have a Unicode code point
greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can
be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls.

=E2=80=8B3. Is it just me, or does it feel really dorky to talk mysteriou= sly about this detection mechanism without providing details?=C2=A0 On top = of which, anyone who's writing the kind of software that might lead one= to consult =E2=80=8Ban RFC first shouldn't bloody well use anything bu= t UTF-8.=C2=A0 If people really want to have this, I think we owe the world= an outline of the algorithm, maybe in an appendix. I'll volunteer to m= ake my best effort to draft it and try to get consensus that it's corre= ct..=C2=A0 If we can't, that's a powerful symbol that we shouldn= 9;t have this language.=C2=A0 But that's my fallback position; my real = request to the group is that we just take this out.


=C2=A0
"""


- m&m

Matthew A. Miller
JSONBis Chair


_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json




--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/t= imbray)
--001a11412d8060723a054bc32ee2-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 22:34:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D315127342 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 22:34:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3LNIIBRl0rwV for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 22:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F14E128AB0 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 22:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([93.217.102.6]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MfBsk-1cV0sy3kVu-00OpUp; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:33:55 +0200 To: Tim Bray , "Matthew A. Miller" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> Cc: "json@ietf.org" From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <77cbcbb4-3976-2959-fb2c-3312c633208a@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:33:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Dyxb9zaS4ayquyXa2grq09repleNjX9xXG5yd1eOkX8uSuwOsUI 5pLkJHwOqECC+XG+KZp0TNbq0mPpNHGa8RyP117W0RFktiTOnYlMvwraILIawSLCjaqHV5I JmExKEcYHtZyo5IZ9PQFYJNcidnjV9HJ81HGz/sb7yh3XVb0D4VEGogjwYbsW6kYq8BJtue VwLf1SXFNKs9bgdaaflsg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:PfqfHrIqudo=:BX5bWHb3d67tT4P8KHtnzH CKrpZ42btgemV54XGVcGI+5A/ZHdyO4l+dA+meKT/nNAIdfptj1shN6Pe8btkoLct1EUAIoUm O/OXqTna8hHeAa9QBQhmjPJ2rpZF4N/NH9TX3Cr4/cuSPhZBvHgNe5eaEKdU6lbPLhCr19sRT VTY7karGZ6F2MDv50X3eJD2XbumuvRre1bKMdbcDRhuPOn7T6YoEn5s9YPJQxqQFDltLOhnqG Pg9TZSwezkSHUKFYa8JuO7njPc0cJ4Z+gxQatD2gjDwTjNGTQ7FhuGlxi6G5tZO1m3X2CONbV B+pqVrevsqJR6yZ0sneO+IS9lzBuyTAvTpgzYy2oXjgkYaPafqu5MurmDbd0JZ3pFFsRzJJQJ pwlAXtbehrmxPnUaIMCLgZYne1/ChuC9QoDZ++q7CbUzUbe/50OTlRiZmqoX6DIIwZyFrJL3W wTFYeMQYHih9pVHJ3MigXCc8QfsV37rc9RKM1/BJzSRTz+BxaLEdVFltBlkE9ZqSeMRFHKHVk crhCI15KNYN1haEHwnc1f+M2Uv+ZgipCkfzVv71erBSkOLsvpG1D3cx46XjJETaYBmj4VQZvX /X8+JS/ypK8gwfMF6keCm/mJTBUz/NPZD6E3Vop5FF1oyVfjfi6NyoRM1vh30QYywT/pvsyBj pk21WA5vojQvOUPxhcCLgvcrggHYVoSyi85oH87xAP5YJHsO5/VgTm9AhyFeNJQRwQbkRfFE6 sui7EbimUxLYt1p2xFpaISFtGT9OuaEntg+eGvCns4hyO6SxSd7x/KnjAjg1fO//gzC3V7Tfh noLePzv Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:34:01 -0000 On 2017-03-28 06:48, Tim Bray wrote: > First of all, let me say that I’m delighted with, and fully support, the > promotion of the status of UTF-8 in the JSON RFC to MUST. I suspect > this steps way outside the JSONbis charter, but that’s a problem for > chairs and ADs, not yr humble editor. > > Comments on Matt's proposed text: > > 1. How about a very short historical note, along the lines of: “Previous > specifications of JSON, including the predecessor RFCs, have not > required the use of UTF-8 for use with the application/json media type. > However, implementors of JSON-based software have overwhelmingly chosen > to use the UTF-8 encoding, to the extent that it is the only realistic > way to achieve interoperability in software which generates or consumes > JSON.” > > ... moving on... If we do this, we'll have to add it to the "changes from 7159" section. > ... > Recipients that wish to support Unicode encodings other than UTF-8 > can do this using a detection mechanism that is based on the fact > that the first character will always have a Unicode code point > greater than 0 and less than 128, thus the UTF-16/32 variants can > be detected by inspecting the first octets for nulls. > > > ​3. Is it just me, or does it feel really dorky to talk mysteriously > about this detection mechanism without providing details? On top of > which, anyone who's writing the kind of software that might lead one to > consult ​an RFC first shouldn't bloody well use anything but UTF-8. If > people really want to have this, I think we owe the world an outline of > the algorithm, maybe in an appendix. I'll volunteer to make my best > effort to draft it and try to get consensus that it's correct.. If we > can't, that's a powerful symbol that we shouldn't have this language. > But that's my fallback position; my real request to the group is that we > just take this out. That was proposed before; it seems some participants are opposed to saying "too much" about the detection, leading it to be implemented more than before. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Mar 28 01:57:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C521129463 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 01:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iy9CYFCWghTY for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 01:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (lvps217-199-162-192.vps.webfusion.co.uk [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1F3E120227 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 01:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4412 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2017 09:50:02 +0100 Received: from host31-51-57-157.range31-51.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (31.51.57.157) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 28 Mar 2017 09:50:02 +0100 To: Tim Bray , "Matthew A. Miller" References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net> <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <1b3ec14a-927a-8d46-e3d3-9807a9588437@outer-planes.net> Cc: "json@ietf.org" From: Pete Cordell Message-ID: <76b51f4f-42e5-19a5-f872-76536737a462@codalogic.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:57:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:57:29 -0000 On 28/03/2017 05:48, Tim Bray wrote: > First of all, let me say that I’m delighted with, and fully support, the > promotion of the status of UTF-8 in the JSON RFC to MUST. I suspect > this steps way outside the JSONbis charter, but that’s a problem for > chairs and ADs, not yr humble editor. > > Comments on Matt's proposed text: > > 1. How about a very short historical note, along the lines of: “Previous > specifications of JSON, including the predecessor RFCs, have not > required the use of UTF-8 for use with the application/json media type. > However, implementors of JSON-based software have overwhelmingly chosen > to use the UTF-8 encoding, to the extent that it is the only realistic > way to achieve interoperability in software which generates or consumes > JSON.” > > ... moving on... If I ruled the world, I'd strip it down even more. Merging with Matt's text, I'd go with something like: """ JSON text SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 (Section 3 of [UNICODE]). When used with media type "application/json" the JSON text MUST be encoded as UTF-8. Previous specifications of JSON, including the predecessor RFCs, have not required the use of UTF-8 for use with the application/json media type. However, implementors of JSON-based software have overwhelmingly chosen to use the UTF-8 encoding, to the extent that it is the only realistic way to achieve interoperability in software which generates or consumes JSON. Implementations MUST NOT add a byte order mark (U+FEFF) to the beginning of a JSON text. In the interests of interoperability, implementations that parse JSON texts MAY ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. """ But I'm very happy with Matt's proposal, so please consider this more towards the "editorial typo" class than a blocker :-) On: > ​2. Seriously, ... we shouldn't waste RFC space talking about > practices that are not remotely interoperable. The I in IETF stands > for Internet, and JSON on the Internet is UTF-8, end of story. The title of the RFC is "_The_ JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". To me that sounds like a fairly definitive definition of JSON. As the IETF often writes stuff that's more general than just usage on the Internet, I think it's reasonable to believe that this text covers all JSON usages; and people would be justified to argue that. If it is just for the Internet, we could tweak the title, add something to that effect to the Introduction, and just say MUST be UTF-8. Thanks, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd