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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:42:09 +0530
From: ford <chengzhengqun@huawei.com>
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   Dear All:
     For MIDCOM, although it is deciede to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM protocol,
but there is no guideline on how to use SNMPV3 to control the NAT.
draft-stiemerling-
midcom-simco-02.txt give the details on how to use this SIMCO as MIDCOM
protocol.


     Could anyone give some guideline on how to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM? If
there is no,
I think SIMCO is a good protocol to work as MIDCOM protocol.I can not
understand why
not choose this as standard, which satifies the requirements for MIDCOM
protocol.


     I am looking forwards to getting your idea as soon as possible!!


     Thanks in advance!!
     Best regards!
                                     Yours: Cheng



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<P>&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear All:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For MIDCOM, although it is 
deciede to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM protocol,<BR>but there is no guideline on how to 
use SNMPV3 to control the NAT.&nbsp; draft-stiemerling-<BR>midcom-simco-02.txt 
give the details on how to use this SIMCO as MIDCOM protocol.</P>
<P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Could anyone give some guideline on how to use 
SNMPV3 as MIDCOM? If there is no,<BR>I think SIMCO is a good protocol to work as 
MIDCOM protocol.I can not understand why<BR>not choose this as standard, which 
satifies the requirements for MIDCOM protocol.</P>
<P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am looking forwards to getting your idea as 
soon as possible!!</P>
<P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks in advance!!<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Best 
regards!<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Yours: Cheng<BR>&nbsp; </P></BODY></HTML>

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To: ford <chengzhengqun@huawei.com>
cc: midcom@ietf.org
From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM 
In-Reply-To: Message from chengzhengqun@huawei.com
   of "Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:42:09 +0530." <000001c2b21d$80ff5cd0$5403120a@in.huawei.com> 
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:29:10 -0500
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We haven't yet published a midcom MIB.  I'm currently
waiting for some guidance from our ADs before we can
proceed.

Melinda
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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:34:40 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <Henry.Sinnreich@wcom.com>
To: sipping@ietf.org, midcom@ietf.org
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Subject: [midcom] UPnP and routing updates for SIPPING and MIDCOM I-Ds
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There is quite a bit of excellent work reflected in all the SIPPING and
MIDCOM I-Ds on NAT and Firewall traversal and some solutions, such as
STUN and TURN.

I believe we need however also updated versions of this work by
enlarging the focus with some other aspects. Here are two examples that
come to my mind, there may be other:

UPnP

Commercial UPnP residential gateways allow UPnP enabled SIP UA to
function well, examples are commercial  wired NAT/FWs and wireless
access points working with some well known softphone clients and SIP
phones. Please see for reference:

http://upnp.org/resources/whitepapers.asp 

After experiencing the true "plug-and-play" nature of the UPnP solution,
I happen to believe it is also a valid enterprise approach as well and
the I-Ds should consider such an enterprise scenario for outsourced and
enterprise services. UPnP gateways have a wider application area since
they will also support collaboration applications that may not be SIP
based, appliances, etc. Along this rationale SIP phones MUST support
UPnP, I believe, see
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sinnreich-sipdev-req-00.txt .
Some SIP phones already support UPnP.

Both the MIDCOM and Sipping WGs need to come to grips with the reality
of the excellent work done by the UPnP people and document it in an
informational RFC IMHO. Is the architecture as IP-centric and good as it
seems? Are there any issues, such as scalability or security? It appears
UPnP has solved much of the MIDCOM problem space.

Ignoring UPnP by the IETF is not a good option.

Routing 

Solutions in most recent I-D have a single NAT/FW - this often an
unacceptable single point of failure. The drafts need to show solutions
with multiple NAT/FW locations and the routing implications, since all
internal routers need to be aware of the NAT/FWs at the edge of the
enterprise network.

Should this be reflected in updates to the charter of the SIPPING and
MIDCOM WGs as well?

What do you think?

Thanks, Henry

Henry Sinnreich
WorldCom
400 International Parkway
Richardson, Texas 75081
USA



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From: "Pyda Srisuresh" <srisuresh@yahoo.com>
To: "ford" <chengzhengqun@huawei.com>, <midcom@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:49:49 -0800
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SNMP v3 protocol and its use is well-defined.

However, MIB for a middlebox device is not as well defined and needs
confirmation as to whether a MIB is adequate for MIDCOM. Perhaps,
you could take a look at  draft-ietf-nat-natmib-05.txt, view this from
the MIDCOM perspective for a NAT middlebox device, and let us know what
might be missing for MIDCOM. Thanks.

regards,
suresh

  -----Original Message-----
  From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
ford
  Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:12 PM
  To: midcom@ietf.org
  Subject: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM


     Dear All:
       For MIDCOM, although it is deciede to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM protocol,
  but there is no guideline on how to use SNMPV3 to control the NAT.
draft-stiemerling-
  midcom-simco-02.txt give the details on how to use this SIMCO as MIDCOM
protocol.


       Could anyone give some guideline on how to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM? If
there is no,
  I think SIMCO is a good protocol to work as MIDCOM protocol.I can not
understand why
  not choose this as standard, which satifies the requirements for MIDCOM
protocol.


       I am looking forwards to getting your idea as soon as possible!!


       Thanks in advance!!
       Best regards!
                                       Yours: Cheng



------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2B2FC.B14C1010
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>SNMP=20
v3 protocol and its use is well-defined.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>However, MIB for a middlebox device is </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>not as well=20
defined and needs </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>confirmation as to whether a MIB </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>is adequate for=20
MIDCOM. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Perhaps, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>you=20
could take a look at&nbsp; draft-ietf-nat-natmib-05.txt, view this=20
from</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>the=20
MIDCOM perspective for a NAT middlebox device, and let us know=20
what&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>might=20
be&nbsp;missing for MIDCOM. Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>suresh</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D434363915-03012003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
midcom-admin@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>ford<BR><B>Sent:</B> =

  Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:12 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  midcom@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [midcom] The standard for=20
  MIDCOM<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P>&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear All:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For MIDCOM, =
although it=20
  is deciede to use SNMPV3 as MIDCOM protocol,<BR>but there is no =
guideline on=20
  how to use SNMPV3 to control the NAT.&nbsp;=20
  draft-stiemerling-<BR>midcom-simco-02.txt give the details on how to =
use this=20
  SIMCO as MIDCOM protocol.</P>
  <P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Could anyone give some guideline on =
how to use=20
  SNMPV3 as MIDCOM? If there is no,<BR>I think SIMCO is a good protocol =
to work=20
  as MIDCOM protocol.I can not understand why<BR>not choose this as =
standard,=20
  which satifies the requirements for MIDCOM protocol.</P>
  <P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am looking forwards to getting your =
idea as=20
  soon as possible!!</P>
  <P><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks in=20
  advance!!<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best=20
  =
regards!<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
  Yours: Cheng<BR>&nbsp; </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Pyda Srisuresh" <srisuresh@yahoo.com>
To: "Melinda Shore" <mshore@cisco.com>
Cc: <midcom@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM 
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Melinda,

By midcom MIB, did you mean individual MIBs
for the middlebox functions - i.e., NAT MIB, 
firewall MIB etc.? If you meant something 
different, please explain. Thanks.

regards,
suresh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> Melinda Shore
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:29 AM
> To: ford
> Cc: midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM 
> 
> 
> We haven't yet published a midcom MIB.  I'm currently
> waiting for some guidance from our ADs before we can
> proceed.
> 
> Melinda
> _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
_______________________________________________
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From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [midcom] The standard for MIDCOM 
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> By midcom MIB, did you mean individual MIBs
> for the middlebox functions - i.e., NAT MIB, 
> firewall MIB etc.? If you meant something 
> different, please explain. Thanks.

That question is still open - this working group hasn't
published any MIB midcom protocol.  Whether or not the NAT
MIB is suitable for midcom is something that needs
evaluation.

Melinda
_______________________________________________
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Wed Jan  8 09:04:25 2003
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From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:54:32 -0500
Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
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We've created a design team to tackle putting together a
midcom MIB.  The decision was made to keep the design team
very small so that it will be able to work as quickly as
reasonable - we are under time pressures.  Their first tasks
will be to come up with a deliverables schedule and to
examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.

The design team members are Mary Barnes
(mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), Martin Stiemerling
(martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
(dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
leadership/editor token.

Melinda
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Wed Jan  8 10:36:09 2003
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From: "Pyda Srisuresh" <srisuresh@yahoo.com>
To: "Melinda Shore" <mshore@cisco.com>, <midcom@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 07:35:51 -0800
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Melinda,

I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as the MIDCOM
protocol. 

What specifically are we looking for in a single MIDCOM
MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and firewall?
It is hard enough to develop a good firewall MIB, or NAT MIB, 
let alone combine both into one.

As the design team is set up to look at the applicability
of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one of the draft
authors should also be a member of the design team. Do let us
know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.

regards,
suresh  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> Melinda Shore
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 AM
> To: midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
> 
> 
> We've created a design team to tackle putting together a
> midcom MIB.  The decision was made to keep the design team
> very small so that it will be able to work as quickly as
> reasonable - we are under time pressures.  Their first tasks
> will be to come up with a deliverables schedule and to
> examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.
> 
> The design team members are Mary Barnes
> (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), Martin Stiemerling
> (martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
> (dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
> leadership/editor token.
> 
> Melinda
> _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
_______________________________________________
midcom mailing list
midcom@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Wed Jan  8 11:00:01 2003
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To: srisuresh@yahoo.com
cc: midcom@ietf.org
From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [midcom] Design team announcement 
In-Reply-To: Message from srisuresh@yahoo.com
   of "Wed, 08 Jan 2003 07:35:51 PST." <NHBBJJGOOMGGLMCDCENJIEMMCDAA.srisuresh@yahoo.com> 
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It may very well be the case that two separate MIBs are
appropriate, which is why the design team's second task
(after establishing a deliverables schedule) is to examine
the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.  We're very
fortunate to have David Harrington, plus possibly additional
MIB specialists, involved, lending expertise in sound MIB
design, performance, security, and so on.  We're trying to
keep the design team as small and effective as possible (we
need to get this done quickly) and we need to keep
partisanship on the design team to a minimum.  I think this
design team has an excellent combination of skills and a
solid track record of getting work done.  

Also, for those who haven't read the IESG statement on
design teams, please do.  It's important to understand that
the design team is going to be providing input to the
working group and is not weighted more heavily than other
input to the working group.  Decisions about the working
group products (documents) are made by the working group,
not the design team.  The URL is:
http://www.ietf.org/IESG/STATEMENTS/Design-Teams.txt

Melinda
_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



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Hi,

I don't believe anybody has stated that there will be just one mib. As the member of the design team with probably the most experience with mibs, I certainly would not recommend that approach.

It is my intention to recommend to the design team that we look closely at existing mibs rather than developing new mibs that would duplicate existing mib functionality, and only write new mibs to tie existing mib functionality together for MIDCOM purposes. Hopefully, there will be little need for new mibs.

It would be my intention to seek out the authors of various existing mibs and to work closely with them to understand the "philosophies" behind their designs and how they compare to MIDCOM needs. I am not convinced that the authors of the existing mibs we might consider should necessarily be part of the design team; that could add significant bias to the discussions.

dbh
---
David Harrington            
dbh@enterasys.com           
co-chair, IETF SNMPv3 WG


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pyda Srisuresh [mailto:srisuresh@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:36 AM
> To: Melinda Shore; midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
> 
> 
> Melinda,
> 
> I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as the MIDCOM
> protocol. 
> 
> What specifically are we looking for in a single MIDCOM
> MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and firewall?
> It is hard enough to develop a good firewall MIB, or NAT MIB, 
> let alone combine both into one.
> 
> As the design team is set up to look at the applicability
> of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one of the draft
> authors should also be a member of the design team. Do let us
> know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.
> 
> regards,
> suresh  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: midcom-admin@ietf.org 
> [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> > Melinda Shore
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 AM
> > To: midcom@ietf.org
> > Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
> > 
> > 
> > We've created a design team to tackle putting together a
> > midcom MIB.  The decision was made to keep the design team
> > very small so that it will be able to work as quickly as
> > reasonable - we are under time pressures.  Their first tasks
> > will be to come up with a deliverables schedule and to
> > examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.
> > 
> > The design team members are Mary Barnes
> > (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), Martin Stiemerling
> > (martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
> > (dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
> > leadership/editor token.
> > 
> > Melinda
> > _______________________________________________
> > midcom mailing list
> > midcom@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
> _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
> 
_______________________________________________
midcom mailing list
midcom@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



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From: "Tom-PT Taylor" <taylor@nortelnetworks.com>
To: "'srisuresh@yahoo.com'" <srisuresh@yahoo.com>,
        Melinda Shore
	 <mshore@cisco.com>, midcom@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
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IMHO we should be looking for a MIB that implements the semantics (which,
BTW, need updating particularly with regard to policy rule groups).  The
underlying data structures will probably be common with the NAT or firewall
MIB, but the MIDCOM MIB itself need not reflect anything the Agent shouldn't
see.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pyda Srisuresh [mailto:srisuresh@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:36 AM
> To: Melinda Shore; midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
> 
> 
> Melinda,
> 
> I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as the MIDCOM protocol. 
> 
> What specifically are we looking for in a single MIDCOM
> MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and firewall?
> It is hard enough to develop a good firewall MIB, or NAT MIB, 
> let alone combine both into one.
> 
> As the design team is set up to look at the applicability
> of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one of the draft 
> authors should also be a member of the design team. Do let us 
> know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.
> 
> regards,
> suresh  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: midcom-admin@ietf.org 
> [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of 
> > Melinda Shore
> > 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 AM
> > To: midcom@ietf.org
> > Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
> > 
> > 
> > We've created a design team to tackle putting together a 
> midcom MIB.  
> > The decision was made to keep the design team very small so that it 
> > will be able to work as quickly as reasonable - we are under time 
> > pressures.  Their first tasks will be to come up with a 
> deliverables 
> > schedule and to examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.
> > 
> > The design team members are Mary Barnes 
> (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), 
> > Martin Stiemerling (martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
> > (dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
> > leadership/editor token.
> > 
> > Melinda
> > _______________________________________________
> > midcom mailing list
> > midcom@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
> _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [midcom] Design team announcement</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>IMHO we should be looking for a MIB that implements =
the semantics (which, BTW, need updating particularly with regard to =
policy rule groups).&nbsp; The underlying data structures will probably =
be common with the NAT or firewall MIB, but the MIDCOM MIB itself need =
not reflect anything the Agent shouldn't see.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Pyda Srisuresh [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:srisuresh@yahoo.com">mailto:srisuresh@yahoo.com</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:36 =
AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: Melinda Shore; midcom@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team =
announcement</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Melinda,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as =
the MIDCOM protocol. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; What specifically are we looking for in a =
single MIDCOM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and =
firewall?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It is hard enough to develop a good firewall =
MIB, or NAT MIB, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; let alone combine both into one.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As the design team is set up to look at the =
applicability</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one =
of the draft </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; authors should also be a member of the design =
team. Do let us </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; suresh&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; From: midcom-admin@ietf.org </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org">mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org</A>]O=
n Behalf Of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Melinda Shore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 =
AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To: midcom@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject: [midcom] Design team =
announcement</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; We've created a design team to tackle =
putting together a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; midcom MIB.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; The decision was made to keep the design =
team very small so that it </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; will be able to work as quickly as =
reasonable - we are under time </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; pressures.&nbsp; Their first tasks will be =
to come up with a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; deliverables </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; schedule and to examine the NAT MIB for =
its applicability to midcom.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; The design team members are Mary Barnes =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Martin Stiemerling (martin@ccrle.nec.de), =
and David Harrington</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; (dbh@enterasys.com).&nbsp; Mary will be =
holding the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; leadership/editor token.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Melinda</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
_______________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; midcom mailing list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; midcom@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom</A></FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
_______________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; midcom mailing list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; midcom@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; <A =
HREF=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom</A></FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Wed Jan  8 12:31:37 2003
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From: Juergen Quittek <quittek@ccrle.nec.de>
To: srisuresh@yahoo.com, Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>, midcom@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
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Suresh,

-- Pyda Srisuresh wrote on 08 January 2003 07:35 -0800:

> Melinda,
>
> I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as the MIDCOM
> protocol.
>
> What specifically are we looking for in a single MIDCOM
> MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and firewall?
> It is hard enough to develop a good firewall MIB, or NAT MIB,
> let alone combine both into one.
>
> As the design team is set up to look at the applicability
> of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one of the draft
> authors should also be a member of the design team. Do let us
> know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.

I agree. Some time ago, I did a brief review of the NAT MIB with
respect to the MIDCOM requirements and it would have been hard
without support from the MIB authors.

At least for the first task of the design team (evaluating
the NAT IB module) progress would probably be much better if
one of the authors participated.

    Juergen


> regards,
> suresh
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
>> Melinda Shore
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 AM
>> To: midcom@ietf.org
>> Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
>>
>>
>> We've created a design team to tackle putting together a
>> midcom MIB.  The decision was made to keep the design team
>> very small so that it will be able to work as quickly as
>> reasonable - we are under time pressures.  Their first tasks
>> will be to come up with a deliverables schedule and to
>> examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.
>>
>> The design team members are Mary Barnes
>> (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com), Martin Stiemerling
>> (martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
>> (dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
>> leadership/editor token.
>>
>> Melinda
>> _______________________________________________
>> midcom mailing list
>> midcom@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
> _______________________________________________
> midcom mailing list
> midcom@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom


_______________________________________________
midcom mailing list
midcom@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



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From: Juergen Quittek <quittek@ccrle.nec.de>
To: Tom-PT Taylor <taylor@nortelnetworks.com>,
        "'srisuresh@yahoo.com'" <srisuresh@yahoo.com>,
        Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>, midcom@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
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Tom,

I share your concern, but I am not sure about it. Now it is the task
of the design team - after studying the NAT MIB - to come to this
conclusion or to recommend to build on top of the NAT MIB.

    Juergen


-- Tom-PT Taylor wrote on 08 January 2003 11:32 -0500:

> IMHO we should be looking for a MIB that implements the semantics (which,
> BTW, need updating particularly with regard to policy rule groups).  The
> underlying data structures will probably be common with the NAT or firewall
> MIB, but the MIDCOM MIB itself need not reflect anything the Agent shouldn't
> see.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pyda Srisuresh [mailto:srisuresh@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:36 AM
>> To: Melinda Shore; midcom@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [midcom] Design team announcement
>>
>>
>> Melinda,
>>
>> I understand, the WG had decided on SNMPv3 as the MIDCOM protocol.
>>
>> What specifically are we looking for in a single MIDCOM
>> MIB, as opposed to a MIB for each of NAT and firewall?
>> It is hard enough to develop a good firewall MIB, or NAT MIB,
>> let alone combine both into one.
>>
>> As the design team is set up to look at the applicability
>> of the NAT MIB draft for MIDCOM, I believe, one of the draft
>> authors should also be a member of the design team. Do let us
>> know, if you believe otherwise. Thanks.
>>
>> regards,
>> suresh
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: midcom-admin@ietf.org
>> [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of
>> > Melinda Shore
>> >
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:55 AM
>> > To: midcom@ietf.org
>> > Subject: [midcom] Design team announcement
>> >
>> >
>> > We've created a design team to tackle putting together a
>> midcom MIB.
>> > The decision was made to keep the design team very small so that it
>> > will be able to work as quickly as reasonable - we are under time
>> > pressures.  Their first tasks will be to come up with a
>> deliverables
>> > schedule and to examine the NAT MIB for its applicability to midcom.
>> >
>> > The design team members are Mary Barnes
>> (mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com),
>> > Martin Stiemerling (martin@ccrle.nec.de), and David Harrington
>> > (dbh@enterasys.com).  Mary will be holding the
>> > leadership/editor token.
>> >
>> > Melinda
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > midcom mailing list
>> > midcom@ietf.org
>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
>> _______________________________________________
>> midcom mailing list
>> midcom@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom
>>


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From: "Tom-PT Taylor" <taylor@nortelnetworks.com>
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I'd like to correct what I believe was a false impression left before
Christmas, regarding the requirements for access control for MIDCOM objects.
IMHO the critical issue is NOT mutual exclusion.  After all, the worst that
can happen is that one Agent deletes a policy rule for which another agent
is trying to extend the lifetime.  This is just as much of a mess if it
happens sequentially as it would be if it happens simultaneously in some
fashion, and points up a (non-MIDCOM) requirement for behind-the-scenes
coordination between Agents.

The critical requirement instead is that once a policy rule has been
created, the only part that the Agent can change is the requested lifetime.
Assuming the Agent has the authority, it can read a policy rule and it can
delete it, but it cannot change its component parts.

Turning from access to another topic, the part that will need careful
handling is the reserved address sub-object.  Depending on the function of
the Middlebox, this contains zero, one, or two addresses.  This sub-object
can either be created in advance through a reserve operation, or created
simultaneously with the rest of the policy rule.  When the policy rule is
instantiated, the reserved address sub-object becomes bound to it.  The
question is what key to use for the reserved address sub-object when it is
created in advance.  One possibility is to think of it as one component of a
policy rule whose other components have yet to be set.  Coming back to
access, I am wondering what restrictions we should impose so the reserved
address sub-object is not hijacked between the time of reservation and the
time of policy rule instantiation.

One final point, probably nothing to do with access: the obvious key for a
policy rule is the combination of the creating Agent's identity and the
Middlebox-generated policy rule identifier.

Tom Taylor
taylor@nortelnetworks.com
Ph. +1 613 736 0961 (ESN 396 1490)
 
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greetings,

can someone clarify the following sentence in draft-ietf-midcom-stun-05?

Section 8.1, page 14  the paragraph before the last paragraph:

"If the username present in the request was not allocated using a Shared
Secret Request, the REFLECTED-FROM attribute MUST contain the
source address and port of the entity which obtained the username,
as best can be verified with the mechanism used to allocate the username."

How we can assert which entity obtained the username?
Can someone give an example?

What does it mean "as best can be verified with the mechanism used to
allocate the username"?

If the username was not assigned by the respective STUN server that handles
the request how it can verify the username (besides performing another
message
exchange with another STUN  server which presumably assigned the username,
which may require additional authentication )?

Thanks for your help

Peter





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inline.

Panayiotis A. Thermos wrote:
> greetings,
> 
> can someone clarify the following sentence in draft-ietf-midcom-stun-05?
> 
> Section 8.1, page 14  the paragraph before the last paragraph:
> 
> "If the username present in the request was not allocated using a Shared
> Secret Request, the REFLECTED-FROM attribute MUST contain the
> source address and port of the entity which obtained the username,
> as best can be verified with the mechanism used to allocate the username."
> 
> How we can assert which entity obtained the username?

It depends on the mecahnism used to allocate them. For example, if its 
kerberos, then the IP address of the entity to which the ticket was 
granted will suffice.

> Can someone give an example?

See above.

> 
> What does it mean "as best can be verified with the mechanism used to
> allocate the username"?

Presumably, the mechanism has a way to verify that the username request 
is not coming from a spoofed IP address. An "anonymous" challenge, which 
requires the client to reflect a nonce handed it by the server, can be 
used to verify the return routability. That is, the client whose source 
IP was X in the request is capable of receiving IP packets sent to that 
IP address.

> 
> If the username was not assigned by the respective STUN server that handles
> the request how it can verify the username (besides performing another
> message
> exchange with another STUN  server which presumably assigned the username,
> which may require additional authentication )?

This was just leaving a hook for other mechanisms to be used.

-Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                72 Eagle Rock Ave.
Chief Scientist                             First Floor
dynamicsoft                                 East Hanover, NJ 07936
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.dynamicsoft.com

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Subject: Re: [midcom] STUN 05 - clarification
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
Cc: midcom@ietf.org, "Panayiotis A. Thermos" <pthermos@telcordia.com>
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Jonathan thanks for the reply,
see more comments below:



                                                                                                             
                    Jonathan                                                                                 
                    Rosenberg              To:     "Panayiotis A. Thermos" <pthermos@telcordia.com>          
                    <jdrosen@dynami        cc:     midcom@ietf.org, (bcc: Panayiotis A. Thermos/Telcordia)   
                    csoft.com>             Subject:     Re: [midcom] STUN 05 - clarification                 
                                                                                                             
                    01/11/2003                                                                               
                    10:53 PM                                                                                 
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                             





inline.

Panayiotis A. Thermos wrote:
>> greetings,
>>
>> can someone clarify the following sentence in draft-ietf-midcom-stun-05?
>>
>> Section 8.1, page 14  the paragraph before the last paragraph:
>>
>> "If the username present in the request was not allocated using a Shared
>> Secret Request, the REFLECTED-FROM attribute MUST contain the
>> source address and port of the entity which obtained the username,
>> as best can be verified with the mechanism used to allocate the
username."
>>
>> How we can assert which entity obtained the username?

>It depends on the mechanism used to allocate them. For example, if its
>kerberos, then the IP address of the entity to which the ticket was
>granted will suffice.

Does this mean that the STUN server has to contact another entity that has
issued the user credentials to verify their validity?

If so, which of the following assumptions stand?
     a) The STUN server will establish an out of band channel of
communication
                      with the component managing the user credentials
(e.g. LDAP request).
     b) The STUN server and the  component for managing the user
credentials
                      are co-located.
     c) How will the STUN server obtain the external entity's IP
address/port?
                     Do we assume that this is a local
configuration/implementation preference?
     d) all of the above or a combination ( :-)  for completeness)

>> Can someone give an example?

>See above.

>>
>> What does it mean "as best can be verified with the mechanism used to
>> allocate the username"?

>Presumably, the mechanism has a way to verify that the username request
>is not coming from a spoofed IP address. An "anonymous" challenge, which
>requires the client to reflect a nonce handed it by the server, can be
>used to verify the return routability. That is, the client whose source
>IP was X in the request is capable of receiving IP packets sent to that
>IP address.

>>
>> If the username was not assigned by the respective STUN server that
handles
>> the request how it can verify the username (besides performing another
>> message
>> exchange with another STUN  server which presumably assigned the
username,
>> which may require additional authentication )?

>This was just leaving a hook for other mechanisms to be used.
understood

perhaps a brief example can help the reader/developer clarify what the
author's
intentions are here.

>-Jonathan R.
--
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                72 Eagle Rock Ave.
Chief Scientist                             First Floor
dynamicsoft                                 East Hanover, NJ 07936
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.dynamicsoft.com




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inline.

Panayiotis A. Thermos wrote:
> Jonathan thanks for the reply,

> 
>>It depends on the mechanism used to allocate them. For example, if its
>>kerberos, then the IP address of the entity to which the ticket was
>>granted will suffice.
> 
> 
> Does this mean that the STUN server has to contact another entity that has
> issued the user credentials to verify their validity?
> 
> If so, which of the following assumptions stand?
>      a) The STUN server will establish an out of band channel of
> communication
>                       with the component managing the user credentials
> (e.g. LDAP request).
>      b) The STUN server and the  component for managing the user
> credentials
>                       are co-located.
>      c) How will the STUN server obtain the external entity's IP
> address/port?
>                      Do we assume that this is a local
> configuration/implementation preference?
>      d) all of the above or a combination ( :-)  for completeness)

None of this is specified. The text you are worrying about is merely a 
hook for other things. The above questions would all need to be answered 
in the context of a specific mechanism. There are no currently proposed 
alternatives, so I cannot provide any details.

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                72 Eagle Rock Ave.
Chief Scientist                             First Floor
dynamicsoft                                 East Hanover, NJ 07936
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.dynamicsoft.com


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:49:26 +0100
From: Martin Stiemerling <Martin.Stiemerling@ccrle.nec.de>
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Subject: [midcom] MIDCOM Semantics: Open Issues
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Hi,

during end of november of last year, right after the midcom session in 
Atlanta, I've posted a list of open issues on the list. Only Tom 
responded to the question and some other people.
Here again is the list of issues, compiled into one email.

Martin


####
#1 PRR behaviour
The semantics propose currently that PRR does

- outside address/port allocation for a traditional NAT
- outside and inside address/port allocation for a twice NAT.

But it is really needed to allocate both sides of a twice NAT during a 
PRR transaction or is it sufficient enough to just allocate the outside 
address/port?

The semantics could be simplified if only the outside address/port  is 
allocated (indepent of middlebox type). Or do you see a scenario where 
both sides must be allocated during the PRR transaction?

####
#2 Group transaction
- Currently: Groups are created explicitly
- New proposal: Groups are created implicitly by PRR or PER transaction
- Impact on group transaction
   - GE and AGD can be dropped
   - GLC, GL and GS are kept
   - Default group can be dropped
   - No group liftime
   - Group state machine can be dropped

The whole group control can be simplified with dropping the explicity 
group establishment, so that groups are established during a PRR or PER 
transaction. The GLC transaction would than delete all policy rules 
belonging to the group when the lifetime is set to zero or change the 
lifetime of each policy rule (lifetime > 0)

####
#3 Wildcarding
Wildcarding is, due to several middlebox types and protocol types, a 
very tough topic. However, I'll but some thoughts on the list later.

####
#4 Return values in PER
What to return in PER transaction reply if inside and/or outside 
address/port are not allocated?
Examples: middlebox is packet filter (no inside or outside address/port) 
or traditional NAT (only outside address/port).

First choice: Return emtpy/none marker. This has the impact that the 
middlebox type is no longer transparent to the agent, i.e. the agent has 
to care what type of middlebox it is using

Second choice: Return external and/or internal endpoint addresses/port 
if appropriate.

####
#5 Split PER transaction
Currently the state transitions in the policy rule state machine from
- PRID UNUSED to ENABLED
- RESERVED to ENABLED
'using' the same PER transaction.
If you take a look into the semantics draft you will recognize that the 
PER for the RESERVED to ENABLED transition doesn't need all the 
parameters as the PER for UNUSED to ENABLED does need.
So it would make sense to separate them both into two different 
transactions:
PER1 for RESERVED to ENABLED
PER2 for PRID UNUSED to ENABLED
(The names PER1 and PER2 are just for the first clarification!)

This would significantly simplify the semantics for the PER transaction.

####
#6 Message Queuing
Is it required to add a 'first come first serve' message processing 
statement into section 2.1.2 "Atomicity" or is the text about 'atomic 
operation' sufficient enough?

####
#7 Capability exchange on Session Establishment
Currently the semantics document proposes these capabilitiy information:
- Type of middlebox
- IP address wildcard support
- Port wildcard support
- supported IP versions
- supported optional transactions
- policy rule persistency
- maximum policy rule lifetime
- name of the default group

Do you see any other capabilities that should be announced?


####
#8 Other open issues
Here is a list of minor issues:
- Separate IP protocol version and transport protocol type in PRR/PER 
transaction? Currently these are defined: IP4/IP6/UDP4/UDP6/TCP4/TCP6

- Need to support ICMP, IGMP, RSVP,... as protocol types?

- Encryption method in SE transaction. Should SE failure reply convey 
supported encryption methods? Curently a 'don't understand your 
encryption' is returned.

- The security considerations need some further elaboration


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:38:53 -0600
From: "Christopher A. Martin" <christopher.a.martin@wcom.com>
Subject: RE: [midcom] MIDCOM Semantics: Open Issues
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Inline

-----Original Message-----
From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Martin Stiemerling
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:49 AM
To: midcom@ietf.org
Subject: [midcom] MIDCOM Semantics: Open Issues


Hi,

during end of november of last year, right after the midcom session in 
Atlanta, I've posted a list of open issues on the list. Only Tom 
responded to the question and some other people.
Here again is the list of issues, compiled into one email.

Martin


####
#1 PRR behaviour
The semantics propose currently that PRR does

- outside address/port allocation for a traditional NAT
- outside and inside address/port allocation for a twice NAT.

But it is really needed to allocate both sides of a twice NAT during a 
PRR transaction or is it sufficient enough to just allocate the outside 
address/port?

The semantics could be simplified if only the outside address/port  is 
allocated (indepent of middlebox type). Or do you see a scenario where 
both sides must be allocated during the PRR transaction?

<CM> I think that both sides must both be allocated, as Twice NAT
addresses a very specific scenario where not allocating it can cause
potential address conflict or incorrect packet routing, as described in
RFC 2663 in the Twice NAT section, pages 13 and 14. The bindings must be
reserved in both directions concurrently to insure the integrity of the
nat bindings during communication.
</CM>

####
#2 Group transaction
- Currently: Groups are created explicitly
- New proposal: Groups are created implicitly by PRR or PER transaction
- Impact on group transaction
   - GE and AGD can be dropped
   - GLC, GL and GS are kept
   - Default group can be dropped
   - No group liftime
   - Group state machine can be dropped

The whole group control can be simplified with dropping the explicity 
group establishment, so that groups are established during a PRR or PER 
transaction. The GLC transaction would than delete all policy rules 
belonging to the group when the lifetime is set to zero or change the 
lifetime of each policy rule (lifetime > 0)

<CM>This seems acceptable at first read, will need to dwell on this
more, initial reaction is that this is an acceptable change</CM>

####
#3 Wildcarding
Wildcarding is, due to several middlebox types and protocol types, a 
very tough topic. However, I'll but some thoughts on the list later.

####
#4 Return values in PER
What to return in PER transaction reply if inside and/or outside 
address/port are not allocated?
Examples: middlebox is packet filter (no inside or outside address/port)

or traditional NAT (only outside address/port).

First choice: Return emtpy/none marker. This has the impact that the 
middlebox type is no longer transparent to the agent, i.e. the agent has

to care what type of middlebox it is using

Second choice: Return external and/or internal endpoint addresses/port 
if appropriate.
<CM>Second choice would be preferable in my opinion if there is a need
to map this information for some sort of state, or for redundant
solutions that may require mirroring this state between other
middleboxes, but that is probably not what you are asking about
here</CM>

<CM>This is all I have for now due to time limitations Will try to
address the rest/and or clarify my thoughts on the above later today or
in the morning.</CM>


####
#5 Split PER transaction
Currently the state transitions in the policy rule state machine from
- PRID UNUSED to ENABLED
- RESERVED to ENABLED
'using' the same PER transaction.
If you take a look into the semantics draft you will recognize that the 
PER for the RESERVED to ENABLED transition doesn't need all the 
parameters as the PER for UNUSED to ENABLED does need.
So it would make sense to separate them both into two different 
transactions:
PER1 for RESERVED to ENABLED
PER2 for PRID UNUSED to ENABLED
(The names PER1 and PER2 are just for the first clarification!)

This would significantly simplify the semantics for the PER transaction.

####
#6 Message Queuing
Is it required to add a 'first come first serve' message processing 
statement into section 2.1.2 "Atomicity" or is the text about 'atomic 
operation' sufficient enough?

####
#7 Capability exchange on Session Establishment
Currently the semantics document proposes these capabilitiy information:
- Type of middlebox
- IP address wildcard support
- Port wildcard support
- supported IP versions
- supported optional transactions
- policy rule persistency
- maximum policy rule lifetime
- name of the default group

Do you see any other capabilities that should be announced?


####
#8 Other open issues
Here is a list of minor issues:
- Separate IP protocol version and transport protocol type in PRR/PER 
transaction? Currently these are defined: IP4/IP6/UDP4/UDP6/TCP4/TCP6

- Need to support ICMP, IGMP, RSVP,... as protocol types?

- Encryption method in SE transaction. Should SE failure reply convey 
supported encryption methods? Curently a 'don't understand your 
encryption' is returned.

- The security considerations need some further elaboration


_______________________________________________
midcom mailing list
midcom@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/midcom



From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Tue Jan 28 15:18:39 2003
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From: "Juergen Quittek" <quittek@ccrle.nec.de>
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Christopher,

Thanks a lot for commenting. Please see replies inline.

-- Christopher A. Martin wrote on 28 January 2003 13:38 -0600:

> Inline
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: midcom-admin@ietf.org [mailto:midcom-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Martin Stiemerling
> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:49 AM
> To: midcom@ietf.org
> Subject: [midcom] MIDCOM Semantics: Open Issues
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> during end of november of last year, right after the midcom session in 
> Atlanta, I've posted a list of open issues on the list. Only Tom 
> responded to the question and some other people.
> Here again is the list of issues, compiled into one email.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
>#### 
># 1 PRR behaviour
> The semantics propose currently that PRR does
> 
> - outside address/port allocation for a traditional NAT
> - outside and inside address/port allocation for a twice NAT.
> 
> But it is really needed to allocate both sides of a twice NAT during a 
> PRR transaction or is it sufficient enough to just allocate the outside 
> address/port?
> 
> The semantics could be simplified if only the outside address/port  is 
> allocated (indepent of middlebox type). Or do you see a scenario where 
> both sides must be allocated during the PRR transaction?
> 
> <CM> I think that both sides must both be allocated, as Twice NAT
> addresses a very specific scenario where not allocating it can cause
> potential address conflict or incorrect packet routing, as described in
> RFC 2663 in the Twice NAT section, pages 13 and 14. The bindings must be
> reserved in both directions concurrently to insure the integrity of the
> nat bindings during communication.
> </CM>

Completely agreed, but this is not the issue. Maybe Martin's 
phrasing is a bit misleading, but the question is about whether 
or not the reservation needs to be for both sides IN ADVANCE. 

The PRR transaction does not establish a binding or pinhole, 
but it just reserves IP addresses to be used for bindings by 
later PER transactions.

This strage transaction became necessary after we found a scenario 
(see section 4.2) where for one side ADVANCED reservation of 
adresses was required BEFORE sufficient information was available 
for establishing an address binding.

The reason why Martin asks is that we only found a scenario where 
such a reservation is required on one side of the (twice-) NAT.

However, being conservative, we designed te PRR transactions to 
perform reservations on both sides, because we cannot (at least 
not yet) exclude that on some day someone runs into a scenario 
where advance reservation on both sides is required. 

Now we are asking the working group whether to be conservative 
and prepared for a scenario that might never occur, or to just 
cover scenarios we know already today. In the latter case, we 
could reduce the PRR transaction to reserve addresses on only 
one side of the NAT.

> 
>#### 
># 2 Group transaction
> - Currently: Groups are created explicitly
> - New proposal: Groups are created implicitly by PRR or PER transaction
> - Impact on group transaction
>    - GE and AGD can be dropped
>    - GLC, GL and GS are kept
>    - Default group can be dropped
>    - No group liftime
>    - Group state machine can be dropped
> 
> The whole group control can be simplified with dropping the explicity 
> group establishment, so that groups are established during a PRR or PER 
> transaction. The GLC transaction would than delete all policy rules 
> belonging to the group when the lifetime is set to zero or change the 
> lifetime of each policy rule (lifetime > 0)
> 
> <CM>This seems acceptable at first read, will need to dwell on this
> more, initial reaction is that this is an acceptable change</CM>

It is also what the authors of the document agree on and already
started to work on.

    Juergen
-- 
Juergen Quittek        quittek@ccrle.nec.de        Tel: +49 6221 90511-15
NEC Europe Ltd.,       Network Laboratories        Fax: +49 6221 90511-55
Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany   http://www.ccrle.nec.de
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Fri Jan 31 13:10:43 2003
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To: midcom@ietf.org
From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:11:43 -0500
Subject: [midcom] Milestones update - FYI
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I've sent a request to the keeper of the keys asking to
update the milestones on the wg's charter page as follows:

Delete:
DEC 02  Submission of an existing protocol for use as midcom protocol

Add:

MAR 03 An analysis of the existing mibs and initial list
       of mibs (or portions of mibs) that need to be developed
       submitted to WG

MAY 03 Initial mibs ID submitted

MAY 03 Semantics document submitted to IESG for publication as
       informational RFC 

SEP 03 Mib documents submitted to IESG

Thanks,

Melinda
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To: midcom@ietf.org
From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:13:17 -0500
Subject: [midcom] It's that time - wg agenda
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It's time to start thinking about the agenda for the March
meeting in San Francisco.  I've once again requested a one
hour slot.  The two items we know about, aside from
administrivia, are 1) the semantics document - any
outstanding issues before going to WG last call, and 2) mibs
update.  Is there anything else?

Thanks,

Melinda
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